Margaret Hassan Murdered on Video (UPDATED)

The terrorists have murdered Margaret Hassan, a woman who spent the majority of her life trying to help innocent Iraqis. Although I believe the organization she worked for was politically misguided, no one can question Margaret Hassan's motives. Rest In Peace. I will post images from the video when available. Why? You think you are outraged at the terrorists now, wait until you see the utter depravity of their actions. Watch one of these videos or see images from them and then try to equivocate between us and them. Developing....

Reuturs:

The British embassy in Baghdad confirmed on Tuesday that a video tape had surfaced appearing to show the killing of kidnapped British-Iraqi aid worker Margaret Hassan, and said it was probably genuine.

"We can confirm there is a tape that appears to show Margaret's murder," an embassy official told Reuters. "We believe it is probably genuine."

UPDATE: The terrorists have taken to dressing their victims in the garb of Abu Ghraib prisoners. While Mrs. Hassan was probably murdered some days ago, I no longer think the appearence of the video and the announcement of another Abu Ghraib like scandal coming on the same day is a coincidence. The terrorists wish to convince the Muslim world that what they are doing is an eye for an eye. The repurcussions from Kevin Sikes' video showing an American Marine killing an unarmed man have already begun. Fox News:
The video shows a militant firing a pistol into the head of a blindfolded woman wearing an orange jumpsuit

UPDATE II: Lady Bird drops a comment letting us know that Margaret Hassan was her teacher. She has an amazing post of her own. It's a fitting tribute to Mrs. Hassan.

UPDATE III: You may donate to CARE International in Margaret Hassan's name here.

I should have knocked on wood after that earlier post. Thanks to Chad, Straight Banana, and others who notified me.

Others: Chad, Straight Banana, Ed, Mike, Digger, Chris, Lee, Slant Point, David, Jane, Laurence,

Posted by: Rusty at 12:24 PM

Comments

1 If reports comming out of Iraq are correct that Margaret Hassan was shot in the head on video and then as a final insult to her memory mutilated and quartered, it takes these ragheads acts of depravity to new heights.

It is indeed a sad day when one so dedicated to the care of the suffering is met with such an appalling end.

Posted by: sopotamia at November 16, 2004 12:41 PM

2 Dear Jesus, you don't think the video's going to show all that? What was the reasoning for not showing the other one, deemed too graphic because they had to throw water on her because she fainted?

Does not make any sense.

RIP Margaret, I hope your death is not in vain. What a horrible ending to someone who was so dedicated to the Iraqi people. How senseless.

Posted by: Laura at November 16, 2004 12:43 PM

3 Poor, poor Margaret, you were such a good woman, Iraq is now a much a much sadder place without your love and many years of support. May your killers die slowly, in screaming agony, videoed for all the world to repeatedly gloat over.

Posted by: Dotty at November 16, 2004 01:28 PM

4 The brave Marine that sent the Islamofascist cocksucker to his well deserved death in a mosque in Fallujah gets us on our way to being close to even for this newest act by the incarnations of Satan here on Earth.

I mean really, is there any doubt that these animals need to be put out of our misery? I am not a fundamentalist religious nut, but America needs to wake up, especially the "Blue State" Americans that think it is ok to show US Marines in combat on TV (cause we are bad), but not this video (cause it's too graphic). The people that think that we are dealing with people that can be talked to or hugged into submission are living on another planet.

We need to start killing more of these animals. That brave Marine was doing what he needed to do; putting down one of these animals. Glad I am in the military. Glad to be one of the ones getting the opportunity to kill these animals.

God Bless you Margaret. May you rest in peace. We will be visiting a vile, painful, well deserved death upon your killers very soon.

Posted by: David at November 16, 2004 01:29 PM

5 Sapotamia,

If the reports are correct, the body found in Fallujah that was mutilated was not Hassan. The body found in Fallujah had her throat cut. Hassan was shot in the back of her head.

Of course both of these are bad, but I fear there may be yet another video coming out soon with the death of the Polish woman.

Posted by: Chad Evans at November 16, 2004 01:40 PM

6 Behaviour breeds behaviour. Don't you American burgermunchin' lard-asses realise that blatant
force will be met with whatever low-life tactics the islamic fundamentalists can think of in their sick warped minds? Do you really expect these people to accept the bombing of their mosques, children & cities...my guess is they feel just the same as you all felt after 9/11! if American foreign policy wasnt so blatantly pro-israeli, and was more balanced, none of this shit would be going on. Blair hinted this week in a speech that he is trying to make Bush realise that force is not always the best option. Blair is standing "shoulder to shoulder" with Bush as he has the weight of the historical ties between the UK & US to consider: it would "look bad" if we (the UK) didnt do what we have done throughout recent history. The reality is that the majority of people in the UK do not support the action in Iraq, a lot of people in the world don't agree with America's unilateral approach to the war on terror: America may well be the world's most powerful nation, but the way in which it forces its influence throughout the world (frequently against the judgement & will of people more closely involved) is not always appeciated, and sometimes resented, hence we have people being beheaded in iraq. If the islamic fundamentalists had a comparably trained and equipped army, i'm sure we would see a war in iraq being fought along more conventional lines, as it is, the militants are adopting horrific shock tactics, as they feel they have no other options. I really hope Bush listens to Blair on the Israel/Palestine issue - it's the key - and this whole sorry mess will only be eventually sorted out via diplomacy, not rockets & guns.


RIP Margaret.

Posted by: Brad loveburger III at November 16, 2004 02:08 PM

7 Possibly Chad, or it might have been an Iraqi woman who had dyed her hair. If you look at what the terrorists were doing in Fallujah they were trying to institute a Taliban like regime. A regime that would kill you if you appeared too Western. Either way, very sad.

Posted by: Rusty at November 16, 2004 02:08 PM

8 David...I have just read your comment, you are totally out of order with your views on these people being animals. Please give animals some respect. You cannot compare this filth with animals.

Posted by: Rodders at November 16, 2004 02:25 PM

9 Rodders:

I apologize to animals.

I just apologized to my 2 dogs. They took it the way I thought that they would.

Fuck Osama and all that align with them.

Posted by: David at November 16, 2004 02:36 PM

10 She was my teacher

Posted by: LadyBird at November 16, 2004 02:46 PM

11 Chad my reasoning is with yours. First of all, I don't think the mutilated body they found was Hassan's either. Where I disagree, is that the body found had blonde hair. It could have also been possible that had it not, they still could've shot her then quartered the body and dumped it in the street.

Horrible, either way. Now, I see that a video released has her dressed in the typical orange jumpsuit, blindfolded, with a gun to her head. Hopefully, if the video is shown here, that is all we will see.

RIP, Margaret, your death will be avenged. Talk on the radio is about the Marine, who killed the unarmed man. Hopefully, this will all be over with in a few days. Why are they so quick to play up the actions of a US soldier and not the actions of these fucking bugs (I will not call them animals either).









































Posted by: Laura at November 16, 2004 02:47 PM

12 Brad Loveburger III:

Why don't you see if you can't talk to Osama or Zarquawi and get them to stop acting unilaterally by killing 3,000 Americans in New York or beheading innocent people who are trying to help them. Maybe we can get them to come to a summit so we can discuss our issues and work them out.

Maybe the UK understand that these Islamofascist cocksuckers want us, not just me, but you, everyone you know (whether you hate them or not) you dog, everyone that owes you money DEAD!!!! They don't care and the fact that you are fail to grasp the nature of the threat truly frightens me. We don't have to get permission to act in our own self defense.

Have you ever been in a fight? When the person you faced off against made their move and hit you, did you ask a friend what to do? Did you have a meeting with some friends and relatives to make up a plan of action? If your friends didn't want to come along, did you continue to let your adversary beat on you because you didn't want to make your friends not like you?

President Bush acted. He decided he didn't want to debate the fate or our country in a committee.

Posted by: David at November 16, 2004 02:56 PM

13 That's right, Brad. It's Bush's fault, it's Blair's fault. Why? For wanting to defend a country that was horribly attacked on 9/11, and before that? How long must we sit back and think about it before acting on it?

And don't tell me that there was NO connection bet. 9/1 and Iraq. Zarqawi trained under Al Qaeda. If it wasn't beheadings in Iraq, it would've been something else. Zarqawi has admitted allegiance to Osam and Al Qaeda. Maybe Bush's initial reasons for going into Iraq may not have been clear, but it was justified, none the less.

Burger eating, my ass! Fuck off and stay out of it, your terrorist loving piece of foreign shit.

Posted by: Laura at November 16, 2004 03:15 PM

14 And then when a wounded Marine kill a man who is either one of them or is fully suportive of them we are up in arms?!

Posted by: Rod Stanton at November 16, 2004 03:27 PM

15 My heart goes out to Margaret Hassans family and all that knew her. My deepest sympathy to all.

To "Brad loveBOOGER III in the UK: Curse you trying to lay the blame on all "American burgermunchin lard-asses" for the beheadings in the Arab nations. Your QUOTE: "hence we have people being beheaded in iraq."
The idiot ZarCOWARDwi, and others, are not from Iraq-FROM-Lebanon, Saudi and other places.THEY ARE INVADERS....

If you want to get down to it, your ancestry is right here with us "lard-asses". Some of that shame-shit runs thru my viens. It's a damn good thing that I am of a "hienz57" breed.

Posted by: owoju at November 16, 2004 03:30 PM

16 I want to express my deepest sympathies to the family of Margaret Hassan. From what I’ve heard on T.V. and read about in the papers, she seemed like a good woman who had devoted her life to helping the poor in Iraq. She definitely did not deserve to die the way she did. May she sleep in eternal peace forever.

On the other hand, I wish nothing less then eternal damnation on those who destroyed this woman. May they and all those fighting to promote their atrocious views, die a horrible, painful, disgusting, bloody death at the hands of our “infidel” Marines, soldiers, airmen and naval personnel. May God spit on your souls as he casts you to hell and may your wives, mothers, fathers, children, brothers and sisters rot in festering piles of their own filth gnashing their teeth and weeping for your souls until they too burn in hell with you.

Posted by: John at November 16, 2004 03:30 PM

17 I want to express my deepest sympathies to the family of Margaret Hassan. From what I’ve heard on T.V. and read about in the papers, she seemed like a good woman who had devoted her life to helping the poor in Iraq. She definitely did not deserve to die the way she did. May she sleep in eternal peace forever.

On the other hand, I wish nothing less then eternal damnation on those who destroyed this woman. May they and all those fighting to promote their atrocious views, die a horrible, painful, disgusting, bloody death at the hands of our “infidel” Marines, soldiers, airmen and naval personnel. May God spit on your souls as he casts you to hell and may your wives, mothers, fathers, children, brothers and sisters rot in festering piles of their own filth gnashing their teeth and weeping for your souls until they too burn in hell with you.

Posted by: John at November 16, 2004 03:31 PM

18 David, I understand your points, but even you must realise that Bush got his pound of flesh by invading Afghanistan & overthrowing the Taliban on the basis of their links with Al-Queda...was that enough? NO! Bush's (& Blair's) governments then go on to wage war with Iraq on the premise that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction ready to fire "within 45 minutes" (!!!) - they also maintained that links with Al-Queda were established. To date this has not been proved. What next ? IRAN? NORTH KOREA? WORLD WAR 3? Technically, Blair & Bush are war criminals. If the US had been invaded by a superior power on the basis that the superior power didnt like what the US was doing, and in the process killed a lot of innocent US civilians, dont you think that in a fair world the leaders of the misguided superior nation should be held accountable? It's probably a question you wouldnt be able to answer truthfully unless it was YOUR mother, YOUR wife or YOUR children dying in vain by a misguided enemy's weapons of blind fury. The same so-called US intelligence didnt see 9/11 coming.... But it's ok....I know what the US & UK should do! ...every time the intelligence agencies make a mistake and thousands of innocent civilians have been killed in the crossfire, our governments will just say sorry and everything will be ok then, won't it? What would YOU say to an innocent iraqi civilian who's just had his wife killed through no fault of his own except the unfortunate fact that they lived in the path of a machine gun bullet? "sorry, but we did it in the name of freedom????" Bullshit! the intelligence was way off the mark - you know it & the rest of the world knows it, which is why the international community (in the VAST majority) does not condone the very dangerous road Bush is going down...I will maintain that Bush's strong arm tactics will not dampen down arab fundamentalism...they will only fan the flames of hatred. A more balanced US foreign policy view on the Israeli/palestinian question might just do more to calm the whole situation down in my opinion.

Posted by: brad loveburger III at November 16, 2004 03:52 PM

19 The Marines and soldiers I see in the videos and on the news don't look like burger muching lard asses to me.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 16, 2004 03:59 PM

20 A Jordanian is not an Iraqi citizen....

Posted by: owoju at November 16, 2004 04:19 PM

21 Brad

C'Mon man. Really, I am a soldier who has had to do this for a living, and I have some of my soldiers overseas right now. I can without a doubt guarantee you that we are NOT killing civilians, period. These murdering cocksuckers that the MSM are calling "freedom fighters" are. When they hide in mosques and shoot at us, what should we do? Ignore them, let them kill us until they run out of bullets and then surrender? When they shield themselves behind women and children, what should we do Brad? Give me the benefit of your insight.

You are saying that now that we kicked the ass of the Taliban that we should have said "well, we wil just trust that Saddam won't give weapons that he may or may not have to people who want to kill us." This isn't about one man, one country, or one group. It is about the fact that Wahabbism is seeking the destruction of anyone that does not convert or is from the West. Saddam's minions and Zarquawi's pals needed killing, and if the people could have rose up themselves then they would have. Would you like to have Saddam killing his own people again? Some Children's prisons? How about secret police making midnight visits? Hindsight is 20/20 Brad.

IRAN, NORTH KOREA, WORLD WAR 3? If you haven't noticed, these filthy bastards killed 3,000 people in a BLUE STATE!!!! Do you believe that people that do this need killed? I say we go to North Korea and kill those true believing freedom hating communists so that the people of North Korea can have FOOD!!!! If not that, how about we just ignore Iran and let them give a nuke to and Arab terrorist so they can come to a town near you and light that sucker off near your friends and family.

Bad intel? Hell yes that happens. The Psychic Friends network isn't in the same building as the CIA or MI5. The "slam dunk" on WMD assessment came from George Tenet, the director appointed by Clinton. Seems he may have believed some of the reports that he got from EVERY MAJOR INTELLIGENCE SERVICE in the Western World. The reason that the rest of the world (ie France and Germany) didn't want to come along was that they were not or friend and were stabbing us in the back.

The "balance" that the Arabs are seeking on Middle East peace is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the jews. Is that the balance you seek?

We can't put ourselves in their shoes because we have lived in freedom for over 200 years and we don't allow tyrants to rule here. We threw out the tyrants about 200 years ago.

Posted by: David at November 16, 2004 04:48 PM

22 In spite of the reports that fallujah is for the most part
secured the email I got within the last hour suggests the town
is still pretty damned hellish.Ragheads are still popping up out
of knowwhere.What they havent quite sussed out yet is that shouting Allah U Achbar gets you an immediate bullet between your eyes
no questions asked.For some unknown reason these ragheads just keep
repeating this behavior, they seem too dumb to understand the sooner they shout those words the soonern they'l undrstand that right now theres only one messenger of god and hes wearing a U.S. Marine Corps badge. Go marines,your time is nigh!!!

Posted by: wekno at November 16, 2004 05:07 PM

23 Blame Bush for the invasion of Iraq, yet lib's blame him for 9/11 too, because he failed to listen to warnings. And what if he did listen and invaded Afghanistan in the hopes of finding Osama, without the twin towers being attacked? Then what? Then the lib's would've said we illegally invaded THAT country!

The blame never fucking ends! I can't stand it!

Posted by: Laura at November 16, 2004 05:07 PM

24 Blame Bush for the invasion of Iraq, yet lib's blame him for 9/11 too, because he failed to listen to warnings. And what if he did listen and invaded Afghanistan in the hopes of finding Osama, without the twin towers being attacked? Then what? Then the lib's would've said we illegally invaded THAT country!

The blame never fucking ends! I can't stand it!

Posted by: Laura at November 16, 2004 05:07 PM

25 Sorry website was slow, I posted that twice. I heard the video can be seen at www.silentscream.org or .com, not sure which one.

Posted by: Laura at November 16, 2004 05:10 PM

26 In spite of the reports that fallujah is for the most part
secured the email I got within the last hour suggests the town
is still pretty damned hellish.Ragheads are still popping up out
of nowhere.What they havent quite sussed out yet is that shouting Allah U Achbar gets you an immediate bullet between your eyes
no questions asked.For some unknown reason these ragheads just keep
repeating this behavior, they seem too dumb to understand the sooner they shout those words the soonern they'l get to the understanding that right now theres only one messenger of god and hes wearing a U.S. Marine Corps badge. Go marines, get some,your time is nigh!!!

Posted by: wekno at November 16, 2004 05:11 PM

27 REPORT THAT YOU WILL NOT GET FROM CNN

Special forces are tracking these sons of bitches
not just on the roads out of Fallujah but in the dirt planes between.Mossads intelligence is proving invaluable,remember lots of Iraqi Jewry were thrown out of Iraq, though you wont here that on CNN,it would not be politicaly correct
nor appreciated,political correcters dont tend to like dynamite, nor does King Saud,tends to give them swetty palms and sleepless nights,we wouldnt want that now would we.

Posted by: wekno at November 16, 2004 05:31 PM

28 Quote Burger Brad
[[ >> What next? IRAN? NORTH KOREA? WORLD WAR 3?

You base your above preamble on what exactly?

...Exactly my friend, because they are dangerwiss.

Anyway, next it should be the Faroe Islands, Papa New Guniea and Manchester.

These places are a threat to the world because they play shit football (soccer)...

You patronise yourself and should stand by your convictions by moving to Iran or N.Korea.

They do great Taekwondo lessons there. Ask for master Rhee, tell him QPR Jon sent you.

Peace.

Posted by: qpr Jon at November 16, 2004 05:47 PM

29 Perhaps the palestinians should throw out their tyrants too.

Posted by: skippy at November 16, 2004 05:56 PM

30 David,

Firstly, I would like to say that I wish you and your men well in the perilious ongoing situation in Iraq.

Taking your points, firstly, I have no doubt that despite some aspects of the media trying to persuade us to think otherwise, I have no doubt that the current US/UK force in Iraq are not killing Iraqi civilians deliberately. But it remains a fact that thousands of Iraqis (more than the fatalities of 9/11) have died needlessly. Through absolutely no fault of their own.

I understand your point about the "underhand" tactics that the insurgents are using, i.e. hiding in mosques, but they are outnumbered by a vastly superior fighting force, fighting on whilst knowing if they are captured alive it means deportation to Guantanamo Bay for some (ethically questionable) interrogation techniques....so, whilst not condoning their -some would say cowardly- fighting tactics , I can understand them, when faced with such a stark choice. What would I do in your position? Not be in Iraq in the first place.

Hans Blix asked for more time, he should have got it & as for hindsight, I can say that hand on heart, that was my opinion 18 months ago, before the shit hit the fan. No war should have been waged without HARD evidence. Don't tell me the justification for the war was to stop Hussein killing his own people....The US would have intervened well before now if that was the case. Like after the liberation of Kuwait in '91. Also, I didn't see the US intervening in Rwanda (in the 90's) & or Zimbabwe (now) on that basis....

Let me make it quite clear here that I'm no Saddam fan, but you cannot go invading countries on the off chance that they "may" have WMD, only to find out after a LOT of innocent deaths that the mandate for war was incorrect. Like I say, on this basis where will it end? , are you gonna invade Iran next?!!! more innocent deaths, more moderate muslims turning into fundamentalists, creating more potential Al-zarquawi's and Bin-ladens !!!

Do I seek a middle east solution that involves the eradication of the jewish state ? No, but I believe the Palestinians have the right to a neighbouring homeland. Is that so wrong?

Sort that out through DIPLOMACY, not aggression, and you help disinguish the fuel & the hatred that the fundamentalists need to survive.

Posted by: Brad Loveburger III at November 16, 2004 06:13 PM

31 "These places are a threat to the world because they play shit football (soccer)..."

Are you people whacked or what? Margaret Hassan was shot in the head as retaliation for killing a poor unarmed soul by these marines. Put yourself in their shoes.

Posted by: skippy at November 16, 2004 06:24 PM

32 BRAD LOVEBURGER 111 IS A FAKE.
Can't believe some people falling for it again.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 16, 2004 06:32 PM

33 Brad Burger...here we go again! he's not even a burger...where's the beef?

Fuck all you people who are against the "illegal invasion" of Iraq. NO HARD EVIDENCE. Holy Shit, what is this, the Scot Peterson case?!

If the President and Congress had reason to believe that iraq, or any other country for that matter, was a threat to the US, then as Americans, we have to stand by our leader. That's why we VOTED for him. And that's why we VOTED for him AGAIN.

Seems most of the anti-war assholes are foreign jobbers, maybe their country's there too, but they just love bashing the American president.

Fuck you and stick your thoughts where the sun don't shine. I'm sick of you fakes.

Posted by: Laura at November 16, 2004 06:51 PM

34 Falling for what? A hyperbolic comment? The
US not intervening in Rwanda (in the 90's) & or Zimbabwe (now) It will never happen as there is no oil interests. I think you will find that unless there is a high profile American hostage or crude oil involved- Bush will keep his dick in his pants from now on. His knuckle dragging, chest thumping is quite predictable. Fallujah is a grandstand joke.

Posted by: skippy at November 16, 2004 07:02 PM

35 I don't know the citizenship of this lady. If I remember she was a Brit married to an Iraqi?
She helped feed their hungry.
She helped cure their sick.
She was against American led invasion of Iraq.
She stayed in a danger zone to help the wounded.
Her reward was days of horrible fear during captivity.
Finally slaughtering and dismembering her.
What she had to do with America I don't know.
After her death some mental midget says she was killed because a Marine killed an insurgent fighting against his own government. But she was taken hostage long before. Oh sure. They were just fucking with her to have fun.
There's a lesson here. It doesn't matter who you are or what religion you are. ISLAMOFACISTS will kill anyone for the sake of killing. This is their chosen occupation. Beats working for a living. If the war stopped now and all troops left Iraq they still would not stop the killing. They would have to find or create another battle field. They do it in the name of religion and people listen to this shit. If a Sunni muslim had a brain he would beg for US occupation when the Shia take over. That is really why they are fighting this battle. To prevent a Shia government that will treat them like they were treated. These people are like rabid dogs. Put them to sleep for the safety of the rest of the world. Instead of crying when a soldier kills one he should get a bonus.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 16, 2004 07:22 PM

36 Hoohah (A.Pacino)

Posted by: qpr jon at November 16, 2004 07:28 PM

37 Equally ludicrous to blame the "illegal invasion" of Iraq for Hassan's death as well.

She was against the invasion, therefore, she should have been depicted as an ally.

She helped their people.

She lived there for over 30 years.

She had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with any of this.

In conclusion, the terrorists are killing for the sake of killing. Don't blame Bush.

Posted by: Laura at November 16, 2004 07:37 PM

38 After reading this whole thread, I can't but express my agreement with Brad. We non-americans truly are on the other side of the fence. Many of us cannot understand what we perceive as American self-righteousness. I try to, but it's hard, and I believe they find it just as hard to understand us. It's sad, but I think this is where the limits of human communication show most clearly. No amount of evidence of the terrible wrongdoings of US foreign policy in the world will ever convince them, just as no amount of well-doing (which also exists) by the US will convince us. Never mind the fact that we too hate terrorism. Never mind the fact that we also cringe in disgust and sadness when we see people beheaded. This is not enough for them: we also have to accept the US's killing frenzy as some sort of salvation. Sad... I'm really depressed by both pieces of news today. The world is going to hell and we can't trust ANY of our governments to save us.

Posted by: brunilda at November 16, 2004 08:22 PM

39 brunilda: Geez I wish I could stand in the middle and blame the government. We are the government. Just who started the killing. Killing frenzy? We're not even pissed off yet. You say you hate terrorism. You say you cringe in disgust and sadness at the beheadings. Then do something about it. America is. Terrorists will not stop because of your whineing. They feed on fear. Show your fear, show your mistrust for your government. When you do there are fanatics looking and your post nodding and saying to each other IT'S WORKING!!
Problem with democratic way. Brave people 1 vote.
Others 1 vote.
America: The country that pays the bills.
America: The country that does the fighting.
Not excluding our wonderful allies.
After victory, I only hope America remembers who counts.
Those without the courage to stand up. Should shut up.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 16, 2004 10:42 PM

40 How short our memories are. While seeking diplomatic solutions, the USA has endured the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebannon, the bombing of the USS Cole, not to mention the embassy hostage situation of the 70's. All these and many more acts against the USA were at the hands of the radical Muslims. This has been going on for nearly 40 years. I don't understand how many attacks we have to withstand before the world understands that we are sick and tired of it. 9/11 was the biggest attack and it was an attack on our homeland. All these attacks were attacks on everything we believe in, which is exactly what they were intended to be.
Much like how Hitler hated Jews, Muslims hate Americans. We have learned that but much of the rest of the world hasn't. I guess it's been long enough since Europe was under attack in WWII for you to remember how it feels. We have been enduring this for almost 40 years. We have only thrown a punch now and then during that time and 9/11 showed us things were out of control. When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, we could have taken your attitude and said, we'll take care of the Japs but Europe and England will have to fight their own fight. We didn't do that. We came to the defense of Europe and put Hitler where he belonged.
You can blame whoever you want for all of it, but there is no way any one man could have stopped it. So blaming Bush or Blair or whoever might make you feel better, but it's not more their fault than it is yours or mine.
It is time that the rest of the world understand that the USA will not continue to give and give and give freely to all who need it all over the world, and then turn the other cheek every time an Osma Bin Laden or any other religious fanatic throws a bomb at us. Peace is a wonderful thing. It's a shame the religious fanatics that hate us so much don't realize that. We'd be the first to welcome an end to all fighting. But we will no longer turn and walk away from this bully who will not leave us alone. Sadam was a real threat to the US. Anyone who doesn't believe that evidently never saw how badly he hated the USA for kicking his butt out of Kuwait. He even tried to have our president assasinated.
Any person with that much hate in them is beyond negotiating or talking. They are evil and there is only one way to deal with them. Just think, you might be next on their list. Conforting thought isn't it???????

Posted by: Mona at November 16, 2004 11:01 PM

41 Greyrooster and Mona,

We don't seem to be talking about the same country. I am from Latin America. Your memories are short of the atrocities commited in that continent in the name of democracy and -yes- free market.
The US is not doing anything against "terrorism" in Iraq. It is only defending its interests. Terrorism is also when your country imposes its will on weaker ones. I will never forget Terence Todman in the 90's who was your ambassador in my home country, Argentina. Your government was pushing for us to pass a law that would benefit your pharmaceutical corporations. The House balked - for once. Your ambassador had the nerve to come out on TV and say "if you don't pass this law, we'll take economic measures against you." How do you think that makes people from other countries feel? You certainly are spreading democracy that way, sure. Do I have to mention Chile, where a perfectly democratically elected government was overthrown (9/11/1973) by a CIA-backed and funded coup that left thousands of people missing? Do I have to remind you of the US involvement in Cambodia, for instance? What about the latest US support for "regime change" in Venezuela? Isn't that a democratic government and should be respected as such? Have you even stopped for a second to think why anti-Americanism is so rife? Or have you bought wholesale that bullshit about how other countries envy you? We don't envy Norway, and believe me, there is a lot of freedom and economic viability to be envied there...
The truth is, citizens of other countries cannot trust the US to defend them. You have a great democracy... within your frontiers. Yet a lot of the time you spread misery and violence to other parts of the world, and that is WHY people don't like the US. You talk about your government as if it was this beacon of light and liberty... for you Americans. The rest of the world can go to hell.
Mona mentions how much the US has endured while diplomatic solutions were sought. How much have our brothers in Latin America endured? How destructive have the US' economic policies been for our countries? Are you not counting that, Mona? Is that not suffering?
Greyrooster:
>America: The country that pays the bills.
>America: The country that does the fighting.
Your country never paid the bills for its incursions in Latin American politics. Nor have they paid the bill for the oil they plunder in the Middle East, taking up where the Brits and French left. The "something about it" that you need to do is being part of the solution, not part of the problem as you currently are. Why don't you get a little more informed about the history of US foreign policy? Are you going to tell me that you treat other countries fairly? Give me a break.
And I don't whine, it's just that the whole rationale for this war is so twisted. Despite Laura's not wanting to hear this, Iraq - Al Qaida, sorry didn't happen. And people from both parties came to that conclusion, so that doesn't really qualify as an instance of "liberal spin". My strongest fear is that through this, Americans will only become more and more convinced that their way is THE way, never taking a step back to even try to understand the causes for things that happen. My stance against terrorism is first refraining from committing it myself, something that the US should certainly get better at.
As for the Middle East, most if not all of the regimes there are tyrannical and corrupt, so I have no sympathy for them. But some of them are friends with the US, so they are detested by their own people, but greeted as "moderate leaders" by the Americans. And the wheel keeps spinning.
I think my main point of contention is that you have a roseate view of your country and of your country's motivations, and that certainly does not stand the test of history.
I argue with you, and take pains to discuss and understand you and your positions because we are the government (as you Greyrooster so rightly say). We are responsible for being informed. We are responsible for not buying spin (like "everyone thought Iraq had WMD before the war, including the Europeans - yes, except that Colin Powell spoke at the UN on 2/21/2001 to say exactly the opposite and to convince everyone that the sanctions were working - you can see this at http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm). We are responsible for understanding, even in the face of such inhumane acts as beheadings. How good an idea do we have of what Al-Qaeda members really want? I suppose not much, given the filtering of information that the government and the media carry out. Or do you think that all governments use propaganda except yours?
So for all those reasons, I think scepticism and protest are very much needed. And Americans should also do a mea culpa from time to time.
Cheers, guys, great discussion

Posted by: brunilda at November 16, 2004 11:42 PM

42 Margaret Hussain is dead because of the invation of Iraq. FACT.
As are all the other hostages beheaded. In "liberating" a country the coalition forces have blood of innocents on their hands. If anyone thinks Saddam Hussain was going to attack America or had links with Al-queda they are sadly mistaken at best, totally deluded at worst.
Laura, I am beginning to think someone else is typing for you because you don't seem to have the intelligence to actually manage it yourself.

Posted by: Matt Bing at November 17, 2004 03:53 AM

43 i just want to see the video of death of margaret hassan

Posted by: dei at November 17, 2004 03:57 AM

44 MATT BING: What towel head bugged you? And why did you like it so much? Matt Bing, another Sikes.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 05:49 AM

45 Greyrooster, your head is so far up your own ass you can probably see George Bush's dick in your throat. How many times do you have to be told. Margeret Hussan was working perfectly well for a noble cause before this war. Would you like to tell her family that this is all justified? If it was my family I would be having serious words with good ol' G Bush and all his cronies.

How is everything so black and white to you - Good V Evil? This isn't some kind of comic where superheroes save mankind. This whole thing is a mess and George Bush has blood on his hands.

As for Dei, are you just a sick man or what?

Posted by: Matt Bing at November 17, 2004 06:18 AM

46 Broomhilda: Spin and interpreation is a two way street. I wonder how many Argentines are on the waiting list to come to this horrible place. When you look at the past policies of another country perhaps you should look into the background of your own. As I've said before. Clean up your own act before sticking your nose into the business of others. We have a roseate view of ourselves because we cannot rely on others.
We make mistakes. We know it and get on with it.
Doer's always make errors. Do nots don't make mistakes. Safer to do nothing and snipe at people/nations that do. Which one are you? Which one is your country? I know, apparently, you don't.
What has your country done for the betterment of the world. Nothing. At least we try. Oh excuse me, I forget. You did supply a hiding place for nazis on the run from world justice.
As far as America blundering oil. You are a liar.
Every nation has people like you. I wonder why they learn the language of those they are so jealous of.
Sorry that we backed the Brits when Argentina invaded the Falklands. Sorry you got your asses kicked. But they were right, you were wrong.
The falklands had no WMD, no oil, no Ben Laden, no 9/11. At least America has reasons to invade. Argentina obviously doesn't.
If your country was a world leader, it would have people like you sniping at it. However, Argentina is not a world leader is it?
We are the big dog on the block. You are not. Therefore, you cannot understand the feeling you get when you have small dogs constantly barking at your heels. On occasion, you lose your cool and whip the shit out of one. If you don't wish to walk with the big dog my advice is don't be those barking at his heels. Saddam barked. The Taliban barked. Who's next?

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 06:44 AM

47 OWOJU: That invader thing is a good point. I never thought of it in that context before. Zarquwi the Jordanian and his boys are just as foreign to Iraq as we are. Ben laden was a foreigner in Afghanistan as he is now in Pakistan. I understand there is more than a few french citizens fighting in Iraq.
Of course the real reason is what I've known for years. THIS IS A RELIGIOUS WAR. The fact that these fighters jump from country to country is proof of it. The country doesn't matter. Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq. doesn't matter. It will continue until ISLAM understands they cannot act this way. What will it take. Should we continue to lose our young men day to day. Or should we get it over with? I'm still undecided.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 06:58 AM

48 Yeah sure. Bush killed the lady. Stupid comments like yours is why you don't count. Another little dog.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 07:15 AM

49 I hate little dogs. They are nastier and sneakier than the big ones.

Posted by: Laura at November 17, 2004 08:07 AM

50 BRUNILDA: HOW DOES IT FEEL? As I said before, it's like a rolling stone. It will keep rolling until it's flattened. Nice timing on your attack on America. Again, HOW DOES IN FEEL? Sort of gets you in the gut huh!. Don't feel so safe and smug anymore. American's have had that feeling for several years.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 09:12 AM

51 For those that don't understand the revelance of my last post. Assholes have just blown up 3 banks in Argentina. Two citi-banks and another that I don't know name. No matter who they are, no matter what their cause. There is no excuse to behave like animals.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 09:17 AM

52 Greyrooster,

Thank you for your comments. I tried not to denigrate your country (or you), and I think I didn't. In my first posting I said that there was good things done by it, but they were also matched by bad things. I don't demonize your country or your government: it's just not the paradise of liberty you depict. And when it makes mistakes it should recognize it. Mind you the invasion of Iraq was no mistake. It was the result of a carefully planned strategy. Well, maybe not so carefully.
As for how it feels to be bombed: it's nothing compared with the 30000 who disappeared between 76 and 83, and we had already had two bombings in the 90's. So I think we actually have seen worse.
As for the reasons to invade the Falklands vs. the reasons to invade Iraq: the Falklands ARE argentinian. They were occupied in 1833 by Britain. If you take a map, you'll see where they are located and then maybe you can tell me what kind of claim Britain can have over that territory. We should have never gone to war in 82, but we did not lack reasons to do it. So that is a completely irrelevant point
As for why I learnt your language: To be able to talk to you, believe it or not. And my wife is American.
And I've looked soooo long at my own government's policies, except that was Argentina does or doesn't only affects Argentinians. We give our opinion of your country because your country makes its deeds everyone's business. You can't make the entire world your playground and then expect people to shut up and not criticize you.

>If your country was a world leader, it would have people like you sniping at it
Absolutely. That is an obvious point. You don't get to play leader unless you step on other people's heads.
As for what my country did or didn't do for the betterment of the world, I would like to know how you measure that. My country also didn't do anything to ruin it. Does that count? We simply don't have the power. We're a small country compared to the US, you might as well complain about the several hundred other countries that "don't do anything for the betterment of the world." Believe me, I know that we couldn't be trusted if we were in power (after all, our governments suck big time!), but that's a realization you seem not to have come to yet with respect to your own country.
So you didn't address any of my points, really. The US does more damage than it does good (although it does some good) And that is the issue here. That comes as a freebie when you are in power: in order to maintain it, you have to kick butt and take names. And that's what the US does so well.
Cheers, bring'em on ;-)

Posted by: brunilda at November 17, 2004 09:53 AM

53 Sorry, here I go again. I just wanted to go read some more on the bombings.
I forgot to ask you, Greyrooster, to comment on how all the points I raised in the posting before the last one (Chile, Cambodia, Venezuela, etc.) help better the world.
Thanks

Posted by: brunilda at November 17, 2004 09:55 AM

54 Greyrooster and Laura, this dog has a reason to want to bark.

I'd just like to say that I have had direct exposure to terrorism. In the eighties and nineties I lived and worked in London. I was just one hundred yards away when the Harrrods bombe exploded and suffered glass cuts to my face and head. I also swa bits of victims all over the street. I also fitted a shop in which we slept while we worked there and the day afer we left it was blown up killing several civillians. We were told the bomb was probably planted whilst we were in there. I also, along with millions, suffered the daily disruption at the hands of the IRA and we often walked around in fear. I personally rang the police twice to report suspicious packages - thankfully both were not bombs.

Let me get this straight - TERRORISM is not some kind of joke. The IRA are probably not as bad as Al-queda and their ilk but did not baulk at killing soldiers, policemen in front of their families, politicians, royalty, civillians and children. They saw themselves as crusaders, not terrorists, as soldiers who deserved to be treated with the same rules as British Soldiers. Over time their practices grew ever more viscious and murdurous. Once Margaret Thatcher had utterly failed with her "shoot to kill" policy - a policy which saw IRA numbers rise by a 1000%, incidently - British Governments realised that dialogue was the only way forward. Over time dialogue has changed the very face of the Northern Ireland issue and the fanatics among the IRA have been compltely marginalised. Talking with all terrorists is not possible but there must be found a way or we will never be rid of them by simply trying to wipe them out. It doesn't work and never will.
Oh, as an aside, the IRA recieved almost all of their funds from supporters from the US.

Posted by: Matt Bing at November 17, 2004 10:07 AM

55 Haha, I caught myself committing the sin of Hyperbole. Instead of several hundred other countries I should've written "several dozen". There are only 193 countries in the world, apparently ;-)

Posted by: brunilda at November 17, 2004 10:11 AM

56 i like the comparison between northern ireland and the current situation in iraq, there is a lot of truth in that synopsis. As for Laura et al, you are typical of everything that the rest of the world despises in right wing americans, with black and white, good and evil, simplistic arguments. i hope wankers like are in the minority, or the world is turning into a more dangerous place.

Posted by: bigchester at November 17, 2004 11:40 AM

57 Matt Bing,

What would you know about anything? Have you ever served in the military? Have you seen the way these Ultra Islamic morons treat people? Have you ever seen the scars of women beaten for disobeying their husbands? Or the mutilated face of a woman who mistakenly went out without properly covering her face?

I don't think so. Therefore you know sh*t and your uninformed, moronic opinions don't count.

Go back to thumbing through your J. Crew Catalogue, eating your wiener schnitzel, drinking your French wine and leave the handling of this country's foreign policy up to those who have the best interests of this country AND the world in mind.

Radical Islam is a plague that needs to be destroyed. That will only happen when the ruling parties of countries like Syria, Iran, and Lebanon are wiped from this earth and the landscapes of said countries are covered with the blood of all those who resist us.

The day is coming when all good Americans will take no more and stop these people in their tracks. And believe me, phony; pinko liberals such as you will not stop us.

Posted by: John at November 17, 2004 12:17 PM

58 For all those that believe Mrs. Hassan was killed because the Marine in Falluja exterminated that Islamofacist moron, YOU'RE ALL ABUNCH OF IDIOTS!!!!!!!

Al-Jazerra said yesterday, it received the tape of Mrs. Hassan's murder days ago, but didn't come forward with it until yesterday because they couldn’t be sure of its authenticity.

Hummmmmmm…….

Posted by: John at November 17, 2004 12:29 PM

59 Synopsis comparing Iraq and Ireland is shit. There is no comparison. Irish terrorists that kill innocents should be destroyed like any other terrorist. The US had nothing to do with internal squabbles in Britan. If money can from America to support Irish terrorism/freedom (whatever you choose to call it) it came from Irish immigrants. Read my former posts. I am anti immigration for economic reasons. Irish immigrants promoting terror would fall under one of my reasons why. However, it seems to me that England wishes to stay in Ireland on a premanent basis. America has no such desires in Iraq. We hate that awful place.
For Argentine: You're not married to an American. An American would be taking her skillet to you by now. As I have said before a piece of paper doesn't make an American. When I lived in Miami, Florida nearly everyone who worked for me was from latin America. Many from Argentina. They told me why they left their families to come here.
I never said going to the middle east was a mistake. I merely, mentioned that we have made mistakes in the past. As everyone who gets involved does.
One of you says England is wrong. One of you says Irish are wrong. Both of you say that America is wrong. Know anyone who is right?
I say both of you are little dogs. Just yapping at what you wish you were. What happened? Did the big dog piss on you?
If America is so wrong, so horrible, why would foreigners want to come here? You are obviously in the minority.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 12:45 PM

60 I hope these Islamic lovers seen the special on TV where doctors were trying to put a afgan woman back together.
Her Islamic husband decided that she didn't see things as he did. So he cut here eyes out.
He said she wouldn't listen to him so he cut her ears off.
She stuck her nose in mens business so he cut her nose off.
Islam the religion of peace. (according to Matt Bing). I've got my own ideas. Wonder who brought her poor woman over here and paid for all she needed.
Could it be the oil greedy, money grabbing, trouble making ,uncaring, racist Americans?

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 01:18 PM

61 What is this America for Israel at all costs thing. America protecting Israel? Arabs would wipe out Israel if America didn't protect them.
HOW ABOUT THE REAL TRUTH!
If the United States didn't hold the Israels on a leash there wouldn't be a PLO. The nasty little shit Arafat would have went to his virgin camels a long time ago. And that goes for their supporters. How many times does Israel have to whip their asses to point this out.
Doing what the ISLAMIC asshole huggers accuse us of doing would be the simplest solution. We do care about the descent people. That's why American boys are dying. We could take care of business without losing a man. I hope we can protect ourselves from future Islamic horrors using the present manner. But if the big dog decides to lift his leg it will be because he's frustrated with the little dogs constant yipping.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 01:47 PM

62 Brunlida,

For all of your b*tching about the United States, you forget, or failed to learn, that the reason all of Argentina wasn't taken over by G.B. was because of a little piece of American Legislation called the Monroe Doctrine.

You have no problem with us defending your rights for over two centuries, yet you have a problem with Americans defending our own rights and the rights of few million Iraqis?

Sounds rather self centered to me. Just like every other Left leaning moron to me.

Posted by: John at November 17, 2004 01:51 PM

63 Brunilda: Thank you kindly for your post on the hyperbole comment. A true liberal America hater would have never admitted to exaggeration. He would have said thousands and said anyone who disagrees is ignorant. You can be saved.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 01:58 PM

64 Rooster,
"Could it be Oil greedy, money grapping, trouble making, uncaring, racist americans?"... All except the uncaring part.. I resemble that remark!!! Hahaha
Good point tho...
Andrea

Posted by: Andrea at November 17, 2004 01:58 PM

65 Kofi needs to go!

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/cRosett/?id=110005904

And this piece of sh*t has the nerve to call the war to liberate Iraq illegal!?!

HA F*CKING HA!!!!!!!

How about letting a brutal dictator get away with murder, LITERALLY, for years, because it lined the pockets of a bunch of lefty U.N. A$$HOLES!?!

The U.N. has gone down the path the League of Nations did right before W.W. II.

Posted by: John at November 17, 2004 02:06 PM

66 BRUNILDA: Looked at the map as you suggested. Tomorrow we are going to invade Bermuda, Bimini and the Bahamas.
Hmmmmmm Cuba only 90 miles. Nay, they already moved here.
I see in today's news we just got some more.
I think the entire Cuban National Dance team. Wonder why they want to move here?
I wonder why so many of them join our armed forces. I wonder why so many of them are fanatically pro America. I mean they could have moved to a country that speaks their language. LIKE ARGENTINA.
AMERICA: The boat stops here. For damn good reason.

Gotta go. They are exposing the UN's oil for food project as just what it was. Oil for fraud. Chief Engineer. None other that France of course.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 17, 2004 02:26 PM

67 Now the truth is coming out! Now the world will know who the oil mongers really are. France and Russia....Maybe this is why the UN and France were so against taking Saddam out....hmmmmm. Bush busted their pockets....

Posted by: owoju at November 17, 2004 02:33 PM

68 From Greyrooster:>You're not married to an American.
Do I even need to reply to that? Nah.
John: You defended our rights for two centuries? First news. Monroe doctrine?? Uhh, bad mistake, John. Read this: http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/50.htm
Whose interests were you defending?? You obviously considered us your little playground (which we are, of course ;-))
And obviously, all those are red-herrings. My main point of contention with you guys is that, from past experience, we know we can't trust the US. You have intervened whenever you could to satisfy first your interests, toppling perfectly legitimately elected governments if necessary (most of them left-leaning ***I am not allowed to use the word social--ist because it contains c-i-a-l-i-s, but that's what I mean***).
Greyrooster: you try to apply the famous divide ut regnas (divide to conquer) again, if you can. You must have noticed that some of the people arguing against you are British and I am Argentinian, so very conveniently yo are trying to pit me against them because of the Falklands. Hence your somewhat mangled comment about the map. Could you repeat, please? I don't get your point.
It all boils down to this. You guys think the US always has the good of the world in mind, and we (or at least I) think it is not the case. Particularly given:
1) The US' history, especially in the 20th century.
2) The fact that you didn't start with Saudi Arabia if you were so worried about the way they treat women. Following with all the countries in the Maghreb, that don't have a free press (none of them does).
3) The hand you have had since at least the 30s in the economic affairs of Latin America (not to mention the middle east).
I don't hate the US. I just want a little bit of recognition of these things guys. And of our well-meaning scepticism. In your manichean worldview, you present us with a false dilemma: either you accept everything or you hate us. Sad.
I am still waiting for you to explain what good could have possibly come from the cases I cited in my earlier posting.

Posted by: Brunilda at November 17, 2004 03:10 PM

69 Bigchester: Your usage of "wankers" makes me suspicious that you are from the UK...if so, I rest my case. Can't argue with you lib's from over there.

And if I'm in the minority, in case you haven't noticed, over 55,000,000 Americans voted for Bush. I don't think those numbers justify a minority.

For the terrorist situation, I would say, yes, it IS black and white...no gray areas there...they must all be exterminated, no if's, and's or but's.

Do you have a problem with that? Or are you one of the little dogs?

Posted by: Laura at November 17, 2004 03:17 PM

70 Hey, I need to go back to work. But it was great talking to all of you. I understand quite a lot more now. Keep it coming. I'll be checking it later.
Cheers

Posted by: brunilda at November 17, 2004 03:22 PM

71 HA HA!!!!!!!

Brunilda, you crack me up.

You have the nerve to question the U.S.!?! You!?! An Argentinean!?!

Your country openly supported Hitler and gave refuge to THOUSANDS of former Nazi Party Officials, Gestapo, and high ranking German Army officers after WW II and you question us!?!

HA HA!!!!!!!

As for the U.S. getting involved in the affairs of Latin America, maybe if you idiots could pick your sh*tty little "nations" up out of the gutter and put an end to all the drug running, guerilla warfare, coups, kidnappings for ransom and other lovely features of your godforsaken land, we wouldn't have to waste our time with you fools.

Ask yourself this, why have so many of my country moved to the U.S.? Now take a look around you. I think the reason is clear.

Posted by: John at November 17, 2004 03:30 PM

72 uuuuuu John ... small note .... we gave refuge to a whole bunch of jack booted Soldiers, operatives, and scientists from Japan, Germany and Italy.

Your right on the rest.

Posted by: Salamander at November 17, 2004 04:02 PM

73 hmmmm...since a few weeks I'm watching this site, as an european I'd say the comments here are very onesided. I don't mean it negative cuz if I'd be american my point of view about this war would probably be the same. I'm european, but I have some friends in USA and I have been there several times so I understand this and the other side.
Through my friends I had the pleasure to learn more about the american way of thinking and I don't deny its kinda fascinating for me.
However, in the same way I've learnd from my friends I just wish you would understand us.
I neither for nor against the war in iraq. I just find it horrible how innocent people like Magret Hassan and all others got treaten there. Its so sensless and, above all, in vain.
In my country one of the greatest leader of war was born. His name? Hitler!
And I guess thats why we european disagree to every war on this world.

Posted by: MartinMichael at November 17, 2004 04:08 PM

74 Thats why we look at it different. We have to clean up the messes of pricks the rest of the world refuse to clean up. I would like to point out Rommel died beieving in the nationalist movement, its in his diaries, but loathing hitler for his leadership. People could have cared less if it was Hitler or anyone else, they dispised Hitler for doing wrong with his power, not the nationalist movement he spear headed.

Posted by: Salamander at November 17, 2004 04:14 PM

75 Salamnder,

You're absolutely right.

My argument is Argentina that openly supported Nazi Germany down to the bitter end. They didn't join the Allies until 1945.

After the war, while provided asylum to many former Nazis and supporters of the once Imperialist Japanese, Argentina went a step further. If we found out a German living in the U.S. had run a death camp or committed war crimes, we extradited him to stand trial. The Argentineans would extradite war criminals. If anything they hid them.


Posted by: John at November 17, 2004 04:14 PM

76 YES!!! I can see it all very clearly now....I was wrong all along! I'm gonna sit on my big wide ass munchin a Big Mac(TM) or ten, watchin' CNN and our Blue-eyed boys kick those camel fuckers' asses over in I-RAK! I tell ya, those greasy bastards are gonna PAY!!!!! I say we slit those towelheads' throats, then boil them all in a huge vat of pigs blood....etc...etc...etc...! Because we are the GLORIOUS U.S. OF GODDAM A... and if any of you lettuce-munching custard-spined lefty homo liberal types disagree, then we should round you up, put you in a field and NUKE ALL YOU BASTARDS AS WELL!!!!!! (at this point, Brad Loveburger leaves the message board in a US army jeep to strains of a band playing the "star spangled banner" followed by an large entourage of star & stripes wearing ,pom-pom waving cheerleaders all chanting "yoo-ess-ay!", "yoo-ess-ay!" "yoo-ess-ay!")*


* not really....AMERICA, GET A FUCKING LIFE! AGGRESSION BREEDS AGGRESSION....9/11 PISSED YOU OFF, RIGHT? SO WHAT MAKES YOU THINK AGGRESSION TOWARDS OTHERS IS GONNA MAKE THEM FEEL ANY DIFFERENT?! ALL YOU STUPID ULTRA RIGHT WINGERS WHO CANT SEE BEYOND YOUR OWN TWEE PICKET FENCES IN UTAH KEEP YOUR HEAD FIRMLY WHERE IT BELONGS- UP YOUR SEVERLY DELUDED ARSEHOLES! YOU ARE THE REASON ANTI-AMERICANISM IS AT AN ALL TIME HIGH, YOU ARROGANT BASTARDS!!

Posted by: Brad Loveburger III at November 17, 2004 04:55 PM

77 And you're the reason we can't stand anti-American foreigners sticking up for the ragheads.

Posted by: Laura at November 17, 2004 05:16 PM

78 I have one question. If the USA is such an awful place, why is it that when 9/11 happened, people from nearly every country in the world were killed? If it's so terrible why do we have immigrants running over our borders at all costs? If it's so horrible, why were all those people from other countries here on 9/11?
When any country in the world has any disaster, who is the first there to help? When the US has a disaster, where are all those people we've helped? They are no where to be found. We learned a long time ago that no one else is going to stand up for us, nor will they help us if we need it.
The USA has only been in existence for the past 228 years. These religious fanatics in the middle east have been fighting amongst themselves since the beginning of time. Who fault was it before we were here?
The USA was basically founded by groups of people who sought to get away from religious persecution. Our ancestors saw just as much of it as anyones did. The only difference between my ancestors and yours is the fact that mine did something about it. Sit back and do nothing and you will never make a mistake. Of course you will have to live with the consequences of your inability to act. The USA is made up of people striving for a better life. If our ancestors hadn't been busy building this country, we might be sitting around griping about our situations that we were not willing to prevent. Yes, we love this country and would not trade it for any other in the world. You are making yourself sound more important than you really are by saying we want you to be jealous or envy us. Basically, we don't care if you do or not. But don't you dare attack us. You attack one of us and you have all of us to deal with. Even though we are from different parts of the world, have very little in common at times, and don't agree on everything, one thing Americans do agree on is we will stand together to defend this country and what it stands for. The religious fanatics don't like our way of life, they don't like anything American. Except our money.
So if you want to think that we care if you envy us or are jealous of us, you go right ahead and think that way. I really don't know of anyone who cares if you like us or not. Go ahead and blame us for the worlds ills. Just remember this, at least we didn't sit around doing nothing. We saw a threat in Sadam and rather than wait until he had the chance to sell weapons he was itching to build, to the religious fanatics determined to kill us all, we did something about it. Try telling the women of Iraq how horrible we are.

Posted by: Mona at November 17, 2004 08:20 PM

79 Way to go Mona! You get 'em!
I think many people, especially the cat in Latin America, can't tell the difference between government and big business. The American way of life opens all kinds of doors to big business. Big businesses will cut the throat of anyone that will allow it. I'm curious...did the pharm company win in your country? If not, good for your people for standing up to them. If they did win, it wasn't the American's doing that to you. It was the pharm company. Big difference. Do you honestly think the American people would stand for economic restraints to be put on any country for the benefit of a huge corporation? If so, you don't know us very well. Another thing many in other countries don't realize is that the President of the US does not wield the power you seem to think he does. Congress and the senate are where the power lies. We can impeach the President, but we have to rely on the democratic process to take care of ones we'd prefer to rid ourselves of.
So while our way of live breeds successful businesses, but we are not intimidated by them and don't allow them to take over our lives.
We do not want soci (that word the poster won't let us use!) or communism or terrorism here. If you want that, go elsewhere. If I wanted my kids to grow up in the middle of bombings and such, I'd have moved to Iran, Iraq, Israel, etc. We don't want it and will do whatever is necessary to make sure our children don't have to endure it.
I have ancestors who signed the Declaration of Independence, have fought in every war in American history, and who made this country into the best place in the world to live. I will not dishonor the sacrifice made by all those generations of my family and will not allow anyone to tear down all they fought to build up. If you don't like us, that's fine. Stay where you are and don't give us another thought. Next time you need us, we'll do the same thing.

Posted by: Nellie at November 17, 2004 09:20 PM

80 My, my.....is Mr. Burgerlover one of the lard asses discussed earlier?? How did Utah get dragged into this discussion. Do you have a secret loathing of Mormans? Or are you trying to impress us with your knowledge of American geography? Either way, here is what Utah thinks of you. You are a not worth the lint in any American navel.

Posted by: Tomato Head at November 17, 2004 09:33 PM

81 You are right, Mr. Buggerass or whatever your name is...aggression breeds aggression. 9/11 isn't seen by you as aggression though. What was it other than aggression?
You show me one raghead willing to sit down and talk to an American and I'll show you the wires sticking out of the bombs taped to his body.
Get real! These people only know one language...killing. That is their purpose in life. To kill as many people as possible. And in the name of religion, at that! They are very warped to think killing buys them a ticket to heaven.
And how many American dollars are in your pocket right now??????????????????????????

Posted by: Mona at November 17, 2004 09:47 PM

82 Right on, Mona and Nellie. It's about time some other broads besides myself are fending for themselves against these assholes.

I don't care who believes it or not, I know that there was a connection bet. Iraq and Al Qaeda, that the beheadings would have happened anyway, and if they didn't, and we didn't get Saddam, he would surely have done the job in his own ways. He'd been doing that since before we got him.

I must admit I don't like the reasons Bush stated for entering Iraq, like WMD's, to free Iraq, etc. I do agree with his invasion of Iraq, just not his reasons for doing so. And that's what got me into the ongoing debate of the UK people and other foreigners and anti-Americans believing it was an "illegal invasion".

What the fuck was 9/11...an invitation? What was USS Cole? The African Embassy attack? The bombing of the trade towers in '93?

Mid East has been a hemmoroid since the Iran hostage situation 25 yrs. ago during Carter's reign. They have been coming in droves to the US since then. I've never seen so many uncouth, stinky, dark skinned ragheads as I have during the past 20 + years! I don't believe they want to be Americanized anymore than we want them here.

To think that Atta and those other terrorists who flew those planes lived right among us, shopping at the same stores, working out at the same gyms, living in the same houses and apt. buildings!!!!! Your next store neighbors, folks! And we let 'em in.

I hope that Marine that killed the so called "unarmed" Iraqi fighter gets a slap on the hand and goes back to fighting, however, I doubt it. The trauma of this ordeal surely will get him dismissed and sent home. Hopefully, he will not have charges brought against him. This is WAR, Goddamn it, and we can't let trust the soldiers to do the right thing in a snap judgement, then why bother fighting over there?

Fuck Iraq in that case. Bring our men home and carpet bomb the rest of them. End of story.

That was my bicentennial minute.

Posted by: Laura at November 17, 2004 10:11 PM

83 Hi everyone, I'm back,

OK, Argentina is not relevant to this discussion. That trick is so old that it even has a name in logic: it is called a tu quoque fallacy (http://www.adamsmith.org/logicalfallacies/000661.php)
But, John, do you really think I am gonna be all up in arms because you rightly pointed out that the military (dictatorial, not democratically elected) government during WWII harbored the nazis??? Are you kidding me??? Me stand up for those SOBs??? If you think I am going to put my nation before my principles you can forget about it. What they did was criminal, period. And when it's taught in our high-schools it is taught as a moment we should all be ashamed of.
Of course that's of zero relevance to the matter at stake here, but I thought I might as well point it out.
Second: Mona read my postings. I never said all those things you attribute to me. Like your country being horrible. That's what some of your buddies said about mine. I pointed out that you were wrong in invading Iraq and that you are wrong in being self-righteous and using the world as your playground. And all you could do was compare yourselves to a banana republic like my country of origin. Wow! There are great things and great people in the US, that's absolutely not in question. But that you are so benevolent that you stand for liberty and always do good and you're disinterested, err, learn some history. It'll help you.
And finally (I need to go to bed), this is the page I was looking for, to remind you to also see the beam in your own eye: http://archive.salon.com/books/feature/2004/10/11/crouch/index_np.html
Cheers everyone. Make your country even better than it is.

Posted by: brunilda at November 17, 2004 10:37 PM

84 BRUNILDA: The point is we don't agree with you that we were wrong to invade Iraq. In addition, you seem to emit an attitude that you know better. You don't. We have learned to detect that smug liberal attitude that says I am right and you are ignorant if you don't agree. Then, I will prove it by posting a slanted view coming from somewhere else. There are just as many articles slanted to our way of thinking.
America is becoming a nation that doesn't trust others. For good reason I might add. Much of the world wishes to feed here, while bringing little to the table. Educate us, feed us, give us your inventions, your money, your culture, your music, your sports, your technology. Protect us when we are attacked. Even by our own. And by the way, we hate you. You are wrong.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 18, 2004 12:26 AM

85 Dear;Mr. Bush

I thank God so very much,that you now,our president one again.:)))My precious President!!! I Love Mr.& Mrs President Bush.
Please taking all the bads guy, so we can live
on this dreamland,that GOD said SO...
Mr. President Bush..May GOD be on Your side all throught the coming year. Mr. President Bush;
this coming Sunday, I'm going to Pasadena to see
Bill Graham,and I will save my prayer for this nation safe and sound Plus ..I will praying for you too.


I Love you Mr.President Bush

Posted by: me at November 18, 2004 02:48 AM

86 "America is becoming a nation that doesn't trust others"...

Yep, so carry on being paranoid within your own borders then & stop interfering in hotspots throughout the world and frequently fucking things up...& don't go travelling around the world then, stay at home watching on TV the consequences of your foreign "tours" on your young servicemen, when they arrive home in bodybags...you'll probably not feel safe travelling abroad to certain locations in the current climate anyway, so, yeah, stay at home! I'll repeat that if your foreign policy hadnt been so aggressive, so pro-israeli, and on occasions, so needlessly interfering, then the arab fundamentalists might not have committed 9/11. Nothing said on this whole thread has convinced me otherwise.

SO, YEAH! just you carry on thinking the American way is the best way.....that's why the rest of the world looks "very favorably" (NOT) at your downright refusal to sign the Kyoto treaty....fuck the rest of the world & the future of the world, as long as we Americans in our cars with engines the size of tanks carry on living our "freedom lovin'" lifestyle, lets fuck the fact that Nike (one example of many)spend millions on advertising and marketing, but people in the Phillipines are stitching basketball vests on their (and subsequently your) behalf for mere cents per hour....YEAH! WOOOOOOOO!


"Much of the world wishes to feed here"......Oh Yeah?! not with you greedy overweight bastards, thank you.

"while bringing little to the table"....mmm....let me see...is that the fault of the people of other countries who have suffered as a result of America's manipulation of the economic world (see Nike example above) ?! Thats right, you engineer things to preserve your priviliged lifestyle at the expense of your fellow humans, then complain when they want to cross the divide to the land of plenty....hardly surprising, is it?!

"America Educate us"..... in what, exactly? ...paranoia? ...xenophobia? ...aggressive military tactics? ...being eco-unfriendly? ...the economic manipulation of more unfortunate countries? Because you are past-masters at all of these...

"feed us"...HINT:
Stick your burgers down the toilet and learn to WALK again, before the combined weight of the US population sends you sinking into the sea....

give us your inventions, your money....see above as to why you are so wealthy in the first place. We all pay for YOU in some ways.

your culture, your music, your sports....granted, some aspects of american culture are ok...though, i'm struggling to think of a single example at present....though your sports are crap! who has a WORLD series involving a grand total of TWO nations!?!

"your technology"....I have a theory here....More anti- western nations, whilst not having nuclear weapons at present, will have them at some point in the future! Why? because the likes of Iran (for example) are progessive nations who arent still fighting with shields & spears. Nuclear tecnology is over 50 years old, the rest of the world is catching up fast (and with NO technological help from you, I might add!)

"Protect us when we are attacked"...I'm a brit and you know what? if a 747 flies straight into Big Ben, it wont be my fault, it will be Blair's fault for insisiting on fighting this fucking unnecessary war, alongside you paranoid trigger-happy freaks. Besides, no, I wouldn't want America to do anything if we (the UK) were invaded or attacked...we've not been successfully invaded for a 1,000 years, so I think we'll be ok thank you very much & before you go on about World War II, Hitler was never gonna invade us seriously, the english channel saw to that.

Posted by: Brad Loveburger III at November 18, 2004 03:27 AM

87 So passivity is a quaility you think will save you from terrorist acts. You are disillusioned my English friend.

People like you will be the first to get beheaded by the terrorists for being so damn ignorant.

Posted by: Chuck at November 18, 2004 06:47 AM

88 Hi all,I'm from England and this is my 1st post so bear with me thanks.
Firstly God Bless and God speed to Margaret who at least is now in a safe place hopefully being rewarded for her good deeds.

Secondly well done to the American soldier who shot the "unarmed" Iraqi, he may have been boobytrapped or had a grenade ready anyhow.He should have shot your journalist as well for being so willing to air this and hang the soldier out to dry.How do you decide who are insurgents or civillians. Are the Iraqi's we see dancing on blown up tanks or cheering at dead soldiers civillians ?

Thirdly I think that whatever is wrong with your Country (and ours) the majority of people in the UK would rather stand side by side with you than our weak-kneed "friends" in Europe.

If its time to stand up and pick a side then ... God Save the Queen and God Bless America !

Posted by: Stuart at November 18, 2004 07:29 AM

89 Being passive Chuck? read my first paragraph....the American mistake has been not supporting the creation of a Palestinian state enough, until last week, when Bush starts making big belated positive noises about the palestinian question (no doubt after persuasion from Blair). So, is seeking solutions to problems through progressive diplomacy being passive? I rather think not...and what's more, in exactly WHAT way can real determined diplomatic effort incite the terrorists to commit another 9/11?!? the answer is, we know for definite, it won't. Rockets, Bombs, thousands of innocent civilian deaths & the ILLEGAL invasion of a muslim state might just piss them off again though, don't you think?

Posted by: Brad Loveburger III at November 18, 2004 08:30 AM

90 BradBurger: "I'm a Brit"...that says it all. Forgive me, Stuart, you are one of the rarer ones on this blog from the UK that actually support Blair and Bush.

People like Brad, CooqarUK, and others from the UK give your country a bad name. Whining, pissing and moaning that it's Bush's fault, Blair's fault...oh, I'm getting so tired of these cry baby libs!

Two words for Brad: Fuck off.

Posted by: Laura at November 18, 2004 09:03 AM

91 Laura, go book a one-way flight to Fallujah a.s.a.p. because your inarticulate, ultra right wing "bomb the bastards" small minded rants are VERY FUCKING TEDIOUS. I know a guy called Al-Zarquwi who will take you in for a few days (though maybe in your case he'd be chopping your head off after only a few minutes, not days...because I know that I wouldn't spare you for a few days if I lived in your house & had to listen to the shit coming out of your mouth)...anyway, I've heard that he's very hospitable with American right wingers....

Posted by: Brad Loveburger III at November 18, 2004 02:57 PM

92 Truth hurts, eh, Bradburger? Why is it that all of the bloggers on here disagree with you? Maybe because you're a fake.

Posted by: Laura at November 18, 2004 03:18 PM

93 Careful Laura ....

I think Brad has the "hots" for you.. LOL

Posted by: Stuart at November 18, 2004 04:11 PM

94 Oh yeah right. Like CooqarUK on the Bigley blog?

Posted by: Laura at November 18, 2004 04:22 PM

95 Sorry Laura,

Just English sense of humour.

Posted by: Stuart at November 18, 2004 04:28 PM

96 S'ok, Stuart, no harm done. Others have said worse.

;-)

Posted by: Laura at November 18, 2004 04:36 PM

97 QUOTE from Brad,"I know a guy called Al-Zarquwi.."
A little disturbing, or disturbed?

Posted by: owoju at November 18, 2004 04:45 PM

98 Brunilda has some points to her arguement but doesn't she wonder why a self absorbed country like the U.S. would Build the Panama Canal then give it back to Panama? Even tho it's such a huge money maker? Why the U.S. would accept Japan's surrender in WW II then help rebuild it into one of the worlds leader economic powers that in more than a few ways rivels that of the U.S.? I don't think those are moves of a country bent on world domination? But because we are so successful people will always say what they want to, OOps, well atleast in the U.S. Brunilda. Try demonstrating against your own goverments where you live and see how far it gets you.

Posted by: K G at November 18, 2004 05:42 PM

99 I actually promised my self I wouldn't read this thread anymore (life goes on) but...
On the Panama Canal:
http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/joining.html
And K.G. you may want to read the next page too:
http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/teddy.html
There's the answer to your question on why the US build the canal.
Cheers,

Posted by: brunilda at November 18, 2004 07:57 PM

100 I apologize, I forgot to mention that the reconstruction of Japan was, in my opinion, one of the best decisions in US policy in the 20th century. It showed the world that it had actually learnt the lessons of the Versailles treaty, and therefore, it has to be properly recognized and admired. Kudos.

Posted by: brunilda at November 18, 2004 09:01 PM

101 Hi are you Brits out there Hi Lara LONG LIVE ENGLAND! I love the Brits. Im an American vietnam vet......"been there done that" Thank god for that marine who shot the terroist armed or unarmed he saved another colaition soldier from dying. Next time Marines use a granade and take out the whole bunch of them! As for Brad eat camel shit! :)

Posted by: sue at November 19, 2004 07:05 PM

102 I find it abhoring that while the Arab media plays the marine video 24/7, they won't show Hassan's.

Better to depict Americans as savages rather than admit the truth that their own are the true bastards of depravity.

Posted by: Laura at November 19, 2004 07:35 PM

103 Brunilda,
If you read my post, I didn't 'attribute' anything to you. I read all the earlier posts and replied to them all. I just asked simple questions.
As for BurgerAss or whoever it is, you really have your head up your ass. I don't think you know much at all about WWII. Why did Churchill beg the USA to come help England? Certainly wasn't because all was well there. It was because bombs were dropping all over London with no end in sight. Hitler would have loved nothing more than taking up your precious Queen's residence. Which by the way, that whole concept is a bit 'head up the ass', but that's another topic.
The thing you people do not understand is that in a democracy, the PEOPLE elect the officials. If you don't like them, don't vote for them. That's how we do it here. If you aren't voted for, you don't become President. I think the fact that Bush was re-elected has really chapped the hide of lots of other countries. HE is who we wanted or he wouldn't have received more than 3.5 million more votes. You can say what you want about him or the USA, but you just don't get it. All you want to do is criticize us when every one of your posts attacking us is so green with envy it's funny. Yes, we drive cars - whatever kind we want.
As far as the Nike comment, I have one response. How would all those people be making a living if Nike weren't there? When all the crap about the Mexican sweatshops working for USA companies came out, the USA companies pulled out. Do you know how those women that had worked there fed their children after that? Prostitution is how. I was there and saw that with my own eyes, so I know that is true. Why do your countries make it so inviting for American companies to come there and open factories? I know everyone here wishes the jobs remained here. This is another example of government being mistaken for big business and free enterprise. The government cannot control what these large corporations do around the world anymore than you can. So you can shove your Nike comments straight up your already full ass.

Posted by: mona at November 19, 2004 10:03 PM

104 Brunidla,
Forgot one comment. I have a master's degree in history. I don't think you can even come close to that. Fact of the matter...how now owns the Panama Canal? Isn't the USA. Don't think we've ever invaded our closest neighbors, who would be fairly easy pickings if we were hellbent on doing that.
And my dear, even if you won't admit it, you'd be living in a far different world now that you are if the USA had not pulled England out of Hitler's fist.

Posted by: Mona at November 19, 2004 10:15 PM

105 why don't they keep showing or atleast show once on all the news stations the killing of margaret? We see killings all the time on movies and our local news, read about them in our papers etc.....and now they want to push in the ground this poor marine who did what he should have done considering his circumstances.........for all we know the raghead could have been doing what many have did before, waiting for a moment to of course fake and hide (what their trained to do) and then blow himself and everyone to bits,,,,,,,,give me a break,,,,,,this makes me sick,,,,,,,,the news media needs to be charged the war crimes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all they do is downgrade and belittle our country, military and our president.........

Rest In Peace Margaret......where were all your Iraqi friends.........when will the country and its people.get balls to stand on their own????????/ I want my babysitting husband home!!!to protect our country for a change...

Posted by: madarmywife at November 20, 2004 02:04 PM

106 Bradloveburger or booger #3

you make me sick!!!!!!!!!

Why didn't your never been invaded tea drinking winers save the jews in the holocaust????

God Bless Tony Blair and lord help him for having creeps like you in his country!!!!!!!!!!

you must really be coogar or live next door to him, or your dropped off at the same daycare!

Go back to your looking for something in the paper to sound intelligent game!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we have seen your kind too many on here.......we don't like your ideas and negativity.......why don't you try standing up for something that serves a purpose............besides just using the bathroom...................You Brits, are as arrogant as your queen,,,,,,,,,I mean what does she do for a living? exactly?

Posted by: madarmywife at November 20, 2004 02:12 PM

107 Brunilda,
You don't even make sense..........

You don't trust America, but any of you Foreign asses will take our money wont you!!!!!!!!!!
why don't you try listing all the help our tax dollars from each individual in America goes to help,,,,,,,,,about Women in Saudi Arabia, they were in no way as abused as the Iraqi women,,,,,,,,,,sure they can't vote....so what!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you need to get you act together girl!!!!!!!!!!!
What grade are you in by the way, are you in High School, Do you have a high School? I am right with Mona on this one, don't even know her,slight difference my BA is in English,

Hey Laura, are you stealing the brits hearts again...he he I bet coogs jealous,,,,,,,,,come on coogar we know you are on here, who are you? are you the booger #3

Posted by: madarmywife at November 20, 2004 02:22 PM

108 one more thing Brunilda,
stop posting web addresses please, we can find those all we want,
this is a blog sight,
to state your own personal ideas and known facts

this is not a contest on intellectual ability

Posted by: madarmywife at November 20, 2004 02:26 PM

109 Oh jesus!...here we go again... you right wingers will never convince me on Iraq & vice versa, but....just for Mona, I can assure you that I am not jealous of the USA - whether you believe that or not, I don't really care... you have a History degree do you!? Do you want a round of applause for that, do you?! No? How about a gold star then? Well... as for Churchill "begging" the USA for help in WWII, granted, he recognised that at that early point of WWII we were the last remaining major force in Europe opposing Nazism & yes, you are right to point out that London was being pummelled by bombing during 1940...so, he went to the US for help to avoid a PROLONGED conflict - not because we were "losing" the war & at real threat from invasion. As I pointed out in an earlier post, although Hitler had made sketchy plans for "Operation Sealion" the reality was that it was never going to happen, Hitler's main objective was the proposed expansion of the Nazi empire into Soviet Russia, because of his loathing of the Slavs... So, because of the sea & the Slavs, Britain was realitvely safe from invasion & arguably, with the Russians,we would have defeated the Nazis anyway, admittedly in a longer war.

So, go & read more history books. Or look at the facts, without bias.

OH another thing.... did we not help YOU in south east Asia during WWII?? What a selective memory you have....


As for your criticism of our Queen, I AGREE WITH YOU!!!! So, no quarrel there....

The "car" comment? - you didnt really answer my point about your countries' enormous energy consumption & the Kyoto treaty did you? - one issue on which almost every other industrialised country on earth doesn't agree with you. Just remember, 100 years from now, your kids & grandkids will have to breathe the same air as mine. So, naturally, the rest of the leading nations don't agree with, or respect the US short-sighted stance on Kyoto .

I accept that the actions of big western businesses are not officially US government policy, and indeed the UK is not blameless on this, but the point I was making here was in response to previous posts on this thread stating "if the USA is so bad, how come everybody wants to come here?!?" I was merely suggesting that it is because it is better to be in the position of the EXPLOITEE (big business & the consumers living in the affluent countries with thriving economies who conduct this big business) rather than the EXPLOITED (the countries in which cheap labour is used for greater profit margins by the afore-mentioned big business in rich countries)....don't try to convince me that Nike start making running shoes in Greece because the "poor women" would be selling sex otherwise....it's about PROFIT & PROFIT alone. AND YOU KNOW IT.


mardammywife...an English degree, eh? Ok, whatever...

Why didnt we save the Jews??? We didnt know about the scale of the fucking holocaust till we entered deep into Nazi territory to liberate the camps - you retard!!! On that basis, it's America's fault just as much as the UK's because as Mona said, we apparently "BEGGED" you to enter WW2, so it follows that it must be YOUR fault six million Jews died because you didnt help us kill all the Nazi's quickly enough...YOU IDIOT!!!

Pearl Harbour had nothing do do with the US entering WW2 though, did it?!




Posted by: Brad the trim-waisted slad-muncher at November 20, 2004 04:49 PM

110 Hey, all, this Brad guy sure is starting to sound like COOqarUK, doesn't he?

Me thinks they're one and the same. Like the rest of the whining lib's from the UK.

Posted by: Laura at November 20, 2004 06:56 PM

111 Madarmywife:

I couldn't resist: "BLOG SIGHT". Define please? You must mean "blog site"...
BA in ENGLISH... oh my God.
Good night ladies and gentlemen. You are surreal to argue with. And don't even bother keeping up with your insults... I'm gone for good (I can hear cheers -and relief- on your side).

Posted by: brunilda at November 20, 2004 07:19 PM

112 brunhilda
the great goddess of spelling,

well I did say this wasn't an intellect contest....no comparison to all your mis-spellings and confusion in run ons....atleast sight was spelt right he ha he ha...

all I can say is good bye and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out,,,miss argentina

Posted by: madarmywife at November 20, 2004 11:13 PM

113 where was it you "learnt" to spell anyway brunhilda girl

Posted by: madarmywife at November 20, 2004 11:16 PM

114 Brad what ever size waist you have..

you are coogar aren't you??? your the idiot,
pearl harbor on these blogs is old news, we've all been there over that one, go back to bigley's blog if you want to go there, save us some time....

you didn't know about the scale because you are retarded!!!!why did you wait for the usa to cover you coward back , why didn't you take care of it sooner you creep!!!!!!!!!well we didn't make the same mistake this time, were gonna "get-r-done" with no help or whinning from assholes like you!!!!

Posted by: madarmywife at November 20, 2004 11:22 PM

115 one more thing brad the waist muncher

we could care less if you belived in this fight for terrorism or why we are there, no one is trying to change your mind....so stop feeling sorry for yourself and stop all the blah blah crap we have already heard from the brits before...most people will skip such long repeated paragraphs on here about who's country does what and did what...blah blah,,,,

if this is coogar, glad to see you back old friend,
missed you

Posted by: madarmywife at November 20, 2004 11:28 PM

116 believed...sorry for the mis-spelling
he he heh e

Posted by: madarmywife at November 20, 2004 11:30 PM

117 I have just one comment to Broom Hilda's, and all the other wonderfully wise Brits' remarks.....Does everyone who ever had a doubt, now understand why our ancestors beat the shit out of England and sent them back across the water during the Revolutionary War????????
Now...twist that fact.....

Posted by: Mona at November 21, 2004 01:29 AM

118 Oh well Burger Muncher or Thin Waist, or whatever you want to be called now....think you have effectively had your ass kicked. Just like your sorry assed king got the last time England tried to tell us what to do.
You are pathetic. When anyone points out facts that you don't want to acknowledge, you start personal attacks. The nerve of you tea drinking arrogant assholes! I knew you were all crazy when I received my letter from one of your newspapers telling me not to vote for George Bush. I'll tell you the same thing I told your newspaper......kiss my ass.

Posted by: hilda at November 21, 2004 01:33 AM

119 Way to go!! I think Hitler would have looked cute sitting on the Queen's throne. He might not have looked quite as much like a starched old fart as she does. Speaking of old farts, Prince Charles will fit in her shoes nicely. He and his sister about the ugliest things I've ever seen. Are you people sure they didn't crawl out from under a rock?
Mr Muncher....you need to go find something else to chew, as it's obvious this discussion is over your head.
Brundila....give it up...you are just plain and simply WRONG.
As far as Nike...I'm sure it is profitable for them to go to other countries to make their shoes or they wouldn't do it. My question to you on that is the same as Mona's....is it better to have nowhere to work, or to have a job making comparable wages to everyone else in the country? Whose fault is it that these countries allow companies to pay their workers so little? We have something known as a minimum wage in the USA to protect citizen from that. And when these plants close their doors, where do these people work then? Or do they suddenly stop wanting to eat?
Then on to the energy consumption....how many people live in England? How many people live in the USA? Think there is a bit of a difference there. Any country that allows a rotted old fart called the queen to ride around in a car or in a boat or even use enough electricity to light her palace, has no room to say one word to anyone using anything.

Posted by: Tomato Head at November 21, 2004 01:48 AM

120 I just have to jump in with one comment....To all you wise Brits - take your ideas and opinions and stick them up the Queen's ass. Might give her something to think about other than how she can kill other unwanted family members.

Posted by: mary at November 21, 2004 01:53 AM

121 Wo! One at a time HaHa! All rising to my bait like the dumb Yanks you are!

1. "getting my ass kicked" what - by you lot?!? mmm...let me see...does the creator of this site hold jingoistic, anti-islamic views, therefore this site naturally attracts people holding those same views? The answer is YES, and that's the ONLY reason I'm outnumbered here....let's take a world poll on the war in Iraq...think the results might be rather different then. Which is why hardly any other nations are fighting with you in Iraq. TWIST THAT FACT, MONA.

2. You will never be convinced that anything other than force will solve this problem & if anyone else tries to argue to the contrary, they are "a whining lib"...which is ok,I can accept other people's points of view but you then are "insular,paranoid trigger happy freaks, who can't see past your own belly buttons" then. So, do not make the accusation that it is solely ME who resorts to personal insults...read the whole thread, and have you not done the same?! HaHa, your hypocrisy makes me sick. Typically, you only see things from one (slanted) point of view - your own. More navel gazing....

3. No reasonable arguement has been made to defend your countries planet-killing policies or the fact that your immigration is caused by exploiting less fortunate countries......

4. As has previously been documented, I couldn't give a shit about the queen, if she dropped dead tomorrow, i'd throw a party.

5. The war of Independence? sure you kicked our ass OVER 200 YEARS AGO...YOU ARE RIGHT, MONA!! Now admit the points where i am right, or at least have a valid point. ARE YOU BIG ENOUGH TO DO THAT???!!!! Don't worry, i'll still sleep tonight if you don't, because like the majority of the rest of the world, I don't share your views on the war in iraq. Which says everything about the majority opinion on this board. It's wrong, and out of touch with the REAL majority, out there in the REAL world. TWIST THAT FACT.

Posted by: Brad Boom at November 21, 2004 04:47 AM

122 Refer: BRUNILA'S post of Nov 18, 9.01PM. Seems to agree with drop the bomb and then rebuild policy. HMMMMM!
Myself I'm still in the court of don't drop the bomb until absolutely neccessary.
I do agree that we should be using more missles/aircraft to deliver stronger weaponry. The so called innocent civilians should have enough sense to get away from the terrorist/insurgent element. That is if they are not actually supporting them. They know who they are.
Is Israel going to let Iran develop nuclear capability that close to home? They didn't allow Iraq to.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 21, 2004 08:55 AM

123 Hey folks: Big mistake here. England, Ireland , Scotland, Wales are great countries. They have a few assholes as we do. Don't attack the countries the assholes are from just because they attack us. The UK is our best friend and they deserve to be.

On the question of the world not joining us. The world didn't join us in WW2 either. As a major bully in highschool I learned that very few of the thousands in my school would fight back. Those with the courage to fight back usually joined my group. Not proud. Just saying like it is.
In WW2 you had the UK (and it's group) and the United States fighting against injustice. Russia played the same game then as now until attacked. The French layed down, as they do now. Spain hid in the sand same as now.
I am surprised at Germany. After we done so much for them.
Not much has changed. South America acted the same.
THIS TIME LET US REMEMBER

Posted by: greyrooster at November 21, 2004 09:22 AM

124 THANK YOU Hilda, Mona, Tomato, Mary,!!!!
LOL
This is the first real LOL moment I have ever had since my husband went back to Iraq,,,reading all the comments in a row after my own, then hearing old coogar brad mucher thin wasit respond...now that was some funny stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again,,,I am still laughing......

Rooster, you are right, I have always had a fondness for Scotland and hope to visit there someday being scot/Irish myself.

Hail to the queen..he he heh eh...they are ugly arent' they?????

Posted by: madarmywife at November 21, 2004 01:09 PM

125 planet killing,,,,,,,,,,,,,do you not eat, use the restroom, sleep, throw away garbage , use heat, air, put your pants on like the rest of the world............your the hypocrite coogar aka brad waist broom muncher wish I was american no body loves me I drink too much tea and would rather wait for the terrorist to come to my door etc etc etc..blah blah blah......

Immigration problems?? now your blaming us for immigration problems...they'd be coming there my friend if they didn't have the ocean between them..!!!...

come on coog, give us something good!!!!!to jump on you about

Posted by: madarmywife at November 21, 2004 01:23 PM

126 Well, I think my suspicions are confirmed. Brad Burger, waisted, what the fuck he calls himself on each new post IS the infamous Coo Coo COOqaruk....SMELLS LIKE IT ANYWAY.

Rooster is right though. We shouldn't start knocking our allies just because a coupla assholes come from there.

I don't care who kicked whose ass, it's the here and now I'm concerned about. And it looks like we're gonna be headed to Mosul in the next few days.

That's the newest beheadquarters, get it?

Posted by: Laura at November 21, 2004 01:54 PM

127 “It is not a sensible or intelligent response for us in Europe to ridicule American arguments and parody their political leadership. What is entirely sensible is for Europe to say that terrorism won’t be beaten by toughness alone.”

Mr Blair said there was an opportunity for Europe. “American policy is evolving. Increasingly both Europe and America are coming to realise that lasting security against fanatics and terrorists cannot be provided by conventional military force. “It requires a commitment to democracy, freedom and justice. The only stable Afghanistan will be a democratic Afghanistan.

“Ultimately it is democracy in Iraq that will defeat the insurgents, which is why they are so desperate to stop it. The only viable Palestinian state will not just be based on territory but on democratic values.

“Likewise, the best help we can give Africa is not just through aid, vital though that is, and opening up trade, but through supporting countries in their desperate and fraught attempts to to build institutions of good governance.”

Mr Blair said that democracy was the meeting point for Europe and America. “I am not — repeat not — advocating a series of military solutions to achieve it. But I am saying that patiently but plainly Europe and America should be working together to bring democratic, human and political rights we take for granted to the world denied them.

Mr Blair also spoke of the need for the UN to take on a greater leadership role in providing for intervention in failed states that injure rather than protect their own citizens. “None of this will work, however, unless America too reaches out. Multilateralism that works should be its aim. I have no sympathy with unilateralism for its own sake.”

Mr Blair also delivered a passionate defence of the alliance. “I know of one thing. If we were under direct threat, America would be our ally. If America were to pull up the drawbridge, retreat from its obligations and alliances abroad, the terrorists would attack the rest of us.

“They are not interested in America as America. They are interested in America as the post powerful actor in pursuit of beliefs they fear as much as we value them.”

He said of America and Europe: “What we share is, in the end, of oceanic depth compared to the shallow water of any present discord.”

Britain had a unique role to play between Europe and the US. “Call it a bridge, a two-lane motorway, a pivot or call it a damn high wire, which is how it often feels, our job is to keep our sights firmly on both sides of the Atlantic, use the good old characteristics of common sense and make the argument.

“In doing so we are not subverting our country either into an American poodle or a European municipality, we are advancing the British national interest in a changed world in the 21st century.”



SO, INVADE IRAN, OR ANYWHERE ELSE AND YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN....

BYE BYE, LOVE AND HUGS, BIG BRAD BLAIR.

Posted by: Tony Blair at November 21, 2004 04:36 PM

128 First off, I never told you anything about an ass being kicked. Think that came in later posts, not mine. So I think you are the one getting a bit upset here.
I do want to ask one question though I will likely regret it. How is our 'exploitation' of other countries having cheap labor rates causing our immigration problems?
My hat's off to you MadArmyWife. I'm glad someone else found all those postings after mine amusing. Hasn't the royal family hear of plastic surgery? Or would that taint the blue blood?
Broom Hilda, one other comment. I would gladly admit you were right about something if I could find anything you are right on.

Posted by: Mona at November 21, 2004 07:04 PM

129 Glad I made you smile Madarmywife. Sure you need a few smiles these days.
As far as the broom chewer, I think I detect a note of hostility in your comments. Mission accomplished!!! Sorry you got blamed for it Mona!
I have one more comment to make on the queen. She's a bit like soap-on-a-rope. Fart-on-a-throne.

Posted by: Tomato Head at November 21, 2004 07:10 PM

130 Mona, i'll spell it out for you....would you rather live in a shit-hole of a country working hard just to keep your head above water with few luxuries to look forward to, or would you rather be in a country whose big business takes advantage of the cheap labour on offer in your country and also offers a much higher standard of living for exactly the same amount of work.....mmm...tough choice, huh? To go back to the original point that brought this all up...That is why "people want to come to the USA".

I've done you the courtesy of answering your question, now tell me why the US wont sign the Kyoto Treaty? I know the answer, but would like to hear it from you.

Thank you. And I know you probably won't appreciate this, but you have my credit for being the only person on here who has the intelligence to be worthy of replying to...Like i've said, I can handle a different rationally-argued view, just not a blinkered one. Keep the Anti-Queen comments coming by the way, I find them funny myself....

Posted by: Brad Blair's son at November 22, 2004 03:58 AM

131 To Mona, Laura and the Madarmywife
I have just read your comments regarding the British..First of all I would like to say that every decent human being detests terrorism in all forms so let me refresh your memory mona..(as you have a masters degree in History that is)The greatest single act of terror in modern history was in fact committed by your own government...yes..the devastation of Hiroshima in 1945. The peace negotiations were almost over..The Japanese were just holding out to keep their emperor as head of state...Could the Americans wait for just another week? No chance...They dropped the atom bomb that killed over 100,000 people, Men Women and Children..Was that good enough..NO..Three days later they dropped another one...Plutonium this time on Nagasaki..They not only killed another 50,000 but quite a few American prisoners of war..Oh yes and a few more thousand due to the fallout...What did President Harry say to the American people?..They were just military installations No civilians were killed...but we all know different now dont we? so Please Mona go and resit your Masters degree ...Also Ladies could you tell me what language you speak?...Let me guess...English..Right?..If the English had not set sail a few hundred years ago you would still be speaking Apache,Souix or Crow and giving birth in tents...Dont forget girls the British are your closest ally..SO STOP KNOCKING THEM

Posted by: Rodders at November 22, 2004 03:15 PM

132 Wrong, my ancestors came from ITALY.

Posted by: Laura at November 22, 2004 08:14 PM

133 Laura....ok, why did your Italian ancestors move to the USA?

Posted by: Bradley Bear at November 23, 2004 02:48 AM

134 "In a fair world trade system, you would get paid the same per hour for equally onerous work no matter where on earth you did the work. You would get paid more for climbing in sewers, for doing a job that only a few people can do, or for doing a job that takes long preparation, such as being a doctor. How is the world organised now? Americans get paid perhaps over an order of magnitude times more for the same work as people in the poorest countries. Who is ripping off whom? That disparity is only possible when America takes unfair advantage of her economic and military might. People don't voluntarily put up with that degree of disparity. All the countries in the west take unfair advantage of the third world, not just America. It is just that America is most blatant because she is the most powerful".

....Mona, as per my previous answers, previously on this thread, I accept that the UK is not totally blameless itself in this regard.....the difference seems to be that I have a conscience on the issue whereas, you seem to think the ONLY reason people want to emigrate to the USA is because "its such a great place"...you may enjoy freedom & relatively cheap goods and a high standard of living etc etc but on what foundations are some of those things built upon? i'll put it to you again...in no small part, it's due to the exploitation of poorer countries by your big business.

Posted by: Brad the moose at November 23, 2004 03:22 AM

135 Hello again girls...Laura tell me the answer to this question...What is the smallest book in the world??????....No Idea?..let me tell you..THE ITALIAN BOOK OF WAR HERO'S...

I came onto this website to see the the comradeship between two Countries fighting a war side by side...all I have seen is a few British hating American females who dont know what they are talking about...So girls, I dont mind having a laugh with people of limited intelligence but I admit ..I do get a little pissed off with disrespectful people....So if you wish to keep this war of words please understand that for every derogatory comment you make against the British people ..I will have an answer....bye

Posted by: Rodders at November 23, 2004 10:45 AM

136 One thing is being forgotten in all the talk of the USA taking advantage of cheap third world labor. When those jobs leave the USA, there is no one here doing them anymore. So the people who you claim are making huge wages for the same work being done in the third world are dead wrong. Americans who were doing those jobs before they left our shores have either had to take huge cuts in pay to work in similar jobs, or they've had to go back to school to learn a new trade. A job that leaves here is no longer here, so no one here can be doing that job.
Another misconception is that we enjoy a cheap life. That is far from the truth. We pay hefty taxes and quite high prices for goods here. We have homeless people, people being supported by the government, and many problems you don't bother acknowledging. The fact is, even with all these problems, there is opportunity here. Just because you are born poor doesn't mean you will die poor.
Now to answer your Kyoto question. I can't say the exact reasons President Bush doesn't accept it, as I have not followed it very closely lately. The reasons I give are pure speculation on my part. First, it appears the reductions expected of each country are likely unattainable. Some countries can reduce that much quickly, but most can't. Even if everyone reaches their goals, the benefit to the atmosphere is minute.
From the comments I have heard from the President on this agreement, he is in favor of finding other ways to clean up the world. He isn't saying reduction shouldn't happen, he's only saying why promise something you know you cannot do, plus knowing all along it makes very little difference. Believe it or not, we do have hybrid cars, our cars do have to pass yearly emissions inspections, and fossil fuels are used to heat less and less American homes now. Most factories now have an employee that their only job is to monitor emissions from the plant, and report them to the EPA. Huge fines are leveled against factories that emit more than they are allowed. So it's not like we are doing nothing, even though we haven't signed on with the Kyoto agreement.
Next, to the person with the comments on the USA dropping the nuclear bombs on Japan, you need to study your history a bit more. You are living in a fantasy world if you believe what you typed. Believe it or not, we didn't start that one either.
From the sounds of it, all of you believe our lives here are right out of a tv show. Just because we love our country and will fight to defend it, you think we live in palaces and attend parties every day. Fact of the matter is, I work over 60 hours per week to support my family. That is the norm here...you work many hours to pay for it all.
And lastly, for the Native American comments-suck an egg. I have many ancestors and relatives from the Cherokee Nation. And I haven't lived in a teepee and my kids were born in a hospital. So even Indians can accept progress.

Posted by: Mona at November 23, 2004 11:32 PM

137 Rodders, if you think this started out as a few females hating England, you need to read all the posts. Make all the comments you want. Personally attacking us will get you the same results. So, go drink some tea or something else productive.

Posted by: Mary at November 23, 2004 11:36 PM

138 Ok Mona, thanks for replying, looks like we will have to agree to disagree, whilst I accept your points about the US losing jobs to developing countries, in my opinion, people living in the west on welfare are STILL better off than lots of the people big business exploits in third world countries. Would YOU swap places with them??? Or, would you rather stay where you are, only being there through the accident of birth. I certainly consider myself fortunate to be a UK citizen, but I wouldn't deny anybody of any nationality the right to come to the UK. Nobody can dictate the country into which they are born. I know when I spent a short time in my teens on welfare in the UK, even then I wouldn't have gone to any developing country to work hard & long in a sweatshop in return for (probably even then) a lower standard of living. As you say, at least in the west we usually have the option to retrain and find alternative employment...As regards Kyoto, you may well be correct when you speculate that the aims of the treaty are unrealistic & benefits to the environment would be minute, but, at least the rest of the developed world has taken a small step in the right direction...the US doesn't want ot commit itself to even that, as it doesn't want to upset it's own eco-unfriendly companies, for fear of damaging profits. Which, in my own personal point of view is short sighted & irresponsible. The rest of the developed world agrees on this point, as they have all signed the treaty, which leads to a general feeling that america is arrogant & always does what it wants...so, damn everybody else.

Posted by: bradley the crossed eyed bear at November 24, 2004 04:51 AM

139 I don't hate the British! What I DO hate are the poor representatives of Britian who have come onto this blo and personally attacked me for my views on how I feel this war should be handled. I am NOT against the country as a whole.

COOqarUK, on another blog, ended up calling me a "stupid fucking bitch" and was thrown off the blog. He subsequently kept making up different monikers to be able to continue posting his rantings and insults.

I got a bad taste in my mouth after that, because of him. He ended up losing everyone's respect and he lost his credibility by turning into nothing more than a blithering idiot making vulgar and sexist remarks against anyone who disagreed with him.

THAT is why I am perceived to be a "female hating the British". I support MY leader and Britian's leader wholeheartedly in this war.

Posted by: Laura at November 24, 2004 09:17 AM

140 ok laura
point taken..but please let me reassure you the majority of British people also support Mr Blair ..You will always get the pacifist dickheads that will tell you that war is unnecessary ....dont let them wind you up

Posted by: Rodders at November 24, 2004 12:53 PM

141 Too late, Rodders, they already have, but whether I'm right or wrong, when a person savagely attacks another for their views and resorts to name calling in the vilest sense of the word, then they have lost all respect and whatever credibility their arguments may have held.

The only reason I let it get to me, is because I, personally, was affected by the 9/11 attacks. Most others only talk about it, but I lost people there and have friends and family who lost people there.

The anger, rage and hatred for a group of people who caused this is still very much present. I cannot apologize for those feelings, even now.

I pity no "innocent civilians"...I only care about our soldiers right now. Every war has had casualties of innocents, it's a known fact and cannot be argued.

But, to savagely hogtie, blindfold, and behead innocent people for no apparent reason makes no sense to me, and it is for this I wish revenge, in whatever methods it can be attained.

Posted by: Laura at November 24, 2004 06:57 PM

142 Yo, Laura!

If the above post is a thinly-veiled dig towards me, have a look back up the blog...my initial "insults" were generalised towards the US, not personal in nature...it was YOU who resorted to telling me that I was a "terrorist loving piece of foreign shit" (I'm not, by the way...I just don't agree with the official reasons given for the war & STILL don't think the invasion of Iraq will "solve" anything in the long-term)
...and then in another later post you told me to "fuck off" ...it was only then that I went had my rant towards you....YOU started the personal name calling...

Posted by: Big bad brad at November 25, 2004 04:04 AM

143 Yo, Laura....

If the above post is a thinly-veiled dig at me, let me remind you that firstly any insults delivered by me were not personal in nature, they were directed in general terms towards your country. It was YOU who first called me "a terrorist loving piece of foreign shit" (I'm NOT by the way...I just dont agree with the official reasons given for the war, and also, I don't think this invasion of Iraq will solve anything in the longer term - just my opinion, which obviously differs to your own) ...then in a later post you told me to "fuck off" - it was only then that I responded with some low-life abuse of my own...THOSE ARE THE FACTS.

Posted by: big bad brad at November 25, 2004 04:10 AM

144 ooops....double-posted!!!....sorry, website was slow...I do believe you also had this problem earlier in the thread, laura....SEE...we DO have something in common, you just don't want to admit it...LOL. :0)

Posted by: double-vision at November 25, 2004 04:18 AM

145 YO RODDERS!

The majority of us brits support what is going on, do we? I'd say it's a pretty close run thing...


"Half of British people believe the war in Iraq was unjustified, a survey for the BBC suggests. Almost three quarters of those asked thought the worldwide opinion of Britain had worsened in the light of events in the past two to three years.

Some 46% of the 1,001 Britons questioned by ICM for BBC Breakfast said they were now more afraid of terrorism than they were a year ago.

However, 48% thought British troops needed to remain in Iraq.

Gender split

More women - 55% - than men - 36% - said their fear of terrorism had grown.

But opinion was divided on whether Tony Blair was right to say that British troops should stay in Iraq until the job there was done.

POLL RESULTS
50% thought the Iraq war unjustified
46% were more frightened of terrorism
72% thought view of Britain had worsened
48% thought troops should finish job in Iraq


Just under half - 48% - said this was the right thing to do and 41% said it was wrong.

Women's views tended to differ from men's, with 58% of men agreeing with the prime minister as opposed to 38% of women.

Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman Sir Menzies Campbell said the poll showed the deep division that existed in the UK before the fall of Saddam Hussein continued today. "

Posted by: Bbbbbbbbbbrad..... at November 25, 2004 04:32 AM

146 Hey Cooq, Brad, whatever name you go by hourly. Why ARE you constantly changing your name?

Anyway, the vile and sexist comments you resorted to, towards the end of our debates on the Bigley blog were far worse than anything I called you. Why else would Rusty ban you from the blogs and not me?! Why else have others complained about you as well? Seems to go far beyond any beef with just me.

In any event, I'll well past that. I hope you are too.

;-)

Posted by: Laura at November 25, 2004 09:49 AM

147 Ok Laura

1. why do I keep changing my name? the answer to that is "why not" ? the name "brad" appears in all my posts (with the exception of the last), so it's pretty obvious who I am throughout this thread....

2. I keep hearing you go on about this "CooquarUK" guy? I genuinely dont know who you are talking about, I can assure you He and I are not one and the same. The first time I visited this site was on this thread. Yes, I overstepped the mark with my remarks about you and Al-zarquawi...but then, you had just told me to fuck off!! So, I'm willing to live and let live on that basis...

3. My summary of the situation is this: you are passionately pro-war, and i'm just as passionately against it on the basis of how & when it started: I can respect your opinion & nobody recieves any personal insults from me, as long as I am not subjected to the same.
However, I reserve the right to criticise your country. Likewise, I will listen to & accept criticism of my own country (I proved this by agreeing with various "anti-queen" posts on here)

Anyway....rant over....take care!!!

Posted by: brad at November 25, 2004 10:45 AM

148 I didn't become "pro war" until my hometown was savagely attacked. I have since changed my opinions and views about war since then. I just want justice done to the savages that did that, and for all the other atrocities our boys, your boys, and those of innocent Iraqi people that were slaughtered for no reason.

Posted by: Laura at November 25, 2004 01:19 PM

149 Hi again...

Well, of course I sympathise with anybody who has suffered personally as a direct consequence of war, anybody who has died or been injured needlessly and innocently has my utmost sympathy. As do any relatives or friends of the injured or deceased.

For the record, after 9/11,I could fully understand America's need to lash out & I was in favour of the invasion of Afghanistan and the overthrow of the Taliban, who were sub-humans from the dark-ages... It was also most likely to be where Mr. Bin Laden would have been hiding, and I have no quarrel with America's need to bring him to justice.

What I have issues with is the reasoning by our leaders for the subsequent invasion of Iraq: there has been NO w.m.d. found to date (even though Bush & Blair assured us they existed already, or this was imminent). I find it unforgivable that we have effectively been LIED to by our leaders...I wonder how many dead marines would still be in favour of the war on solely this basis, if they still had a voice?

Another thing...there has been no proven evidence of any Al-queda - Iraq "coalition"... everybody can go on arguing against me to the contrary, but these are the FACTS as they stand, 18 months after the invasion. Our leaders then try to justify the invasion on the basis that Saddam was a tyrant who killed his own people...I agree that he was a despicable tyrant, but an example of misguided US foreign policy was the fact that you SUPPORTED him during the Iraq /Iran war of the 80's, when he was well into his reign. There wasn't much US moaning about human rights abuses against the Iraqi Kurds back then...you certainly didnt feel the need to invade Iraq then?

As for the chap who said Margaret Hassan wouldn't be dead if the US/UK hadn't invaded Iraq...well, unpalatable as it may seem - it's true. The lunatics who captured her wouldn't have had any motive to capture her if we hadn't have been in iraq. They didnt feel the need to capture her in the previous 30 years she lived & worked there, did they?

I must admit, I cannot see why they felt the need to kill her though, she was a shining example - but that is what we are dealing with here: desperate & mindless barbarians, backed into a corner.

On the reasoning for war,a year and a half ago I thought at the time that the U.N. weapons inspectors should have been given more time....and if they had been, we now know of course they still wouldn't have found any W.M.D. and on that basis, a lot of innocent lives (on both sides) would have been spared. Yes, the Iraqi's would still have been living under a despot, but if you are justifying the war solely on that basis, then why didnt you (for example) declare war on China in 1989 after Tiannamen Square? Answer: China have nukes & won't stand for American interference. So, the "make the world a better place" argument being used as the sole reason for the war is a bit weak as well, but that is only my opinion of course...

I just fear for the future. Pressure is beginning on Iran now...apparently the intelligence is "rock solid" this time that Iran may be developing nukes....but where have we heard that before?!? If Iran needs checking over, let's get the U.N. inspectors in, let them do their job TO IT'S CONCLUSION & report back...and PLEASE, if we feel the need to invade anymore countries, wait until the U.N. security council agrees a majority & a timetable for action next time?! That way, we get a real coalition, with majority support. Not unilateralism, which is more or less what we have now.

Posted by: Brad at November 25, 2004 02:42 PM

150 Didn't Sadam keep the extremist groups out of his country? Don't most of those groups come from other countries. Did they return after Sadam was defeated?

Or have I got it wrong? I thought women in Iraq had good education and rights to jobs in high places. When you have psychotic groups that cut off innocent people's heads then it's not as if a country can have a soft leader to keep them out.

Aren't things worse in Iraq than they were before?

A man on a donkey against a super power, Bin laden, is still free and the psychotic extremist groups who aren't fit to be called humans seem to be doing what they like and recruiting more people. What is going on?

What was the war about anyway? The Un said Sadam didn't have any WMDs as they checked before Bush declared war.

Margaret Hassan seemed happy enough to live in Iraq and wasn't under any threat before the invasion of Iraq. In what way has invading Iraq helped anybody in any way?

Suzy, in England.

Posted by: Suzy at November 28, 2004 07:04 PM

151 While I took the Thanksgiving holidays off from my computer, I now can't resist replying to Brad the Cross Legged Bear or whatever it was. I really don't think anyone would trade places with anyone in a third world country. I really think you are confused though. The majority of jobs, not all mind you, but MOST of the jobs that left the USA have gone to Mexico or China. Neither of those are third world countries. Again I ask the question...if the American companies were not in the places they are, where would these people be making any living at all??

I do not consider it an accident of birth that I was born here. I have ancestors who left Europe, as well as Native American ancestors. It has been quite by choice that my family has stayed in America for over 400 years. My European ancestors helped settle Jamestown and were some of the first settlers to arrive here. My Native American ancestors were here long before any Europeans arrived.

There are many problems in the world we live in today. #1 is terrorism. When the USA was attacked, that ended our 'wait and see' approach to anything concerning our safety. Where we perceive a threat, it has to be taken seriously or we could have 9/11 all over again. We know that should anything like that happen again, it will be us to us and us alone to pick up the pieces and go on. Last time proved how much help we'd get from the world. Therefore, since so much of the world is hostile or downright hates the USA, any threat cannot be seen as anything but dangerous.

Just because our way of life allows big businesses to exist, that is not anything that our government or our people can control. If we try to control it, we are lead into a Marxist or communist way of life. Everyone claims not to want that type of government in their countries, but you expect us to allow government to control big businesses. That is not the way of life we want any more than anyone else does. The USA is not the only country that has big businesses. One Far Eastern country has quite a few themselves - Japan. Plus, these terrorists we are dealing with are not goat herders who happened to get a gun given to them by a passing stranger. These are people that are very wealthy people. These are people who have plenty of money to fund terrorist activities, and can do so without even having to work.

Iraq was seen as a threat, as one of two things was going to happen. It is a known fact that at one time Sadam had WMD's. He was planning to build them again as soon as they convinced everyone they were going to be nice and play fair, and the world turned their backs for just one second. When that happened, either the terrorists were going to become Sadam's best friends, or his worst enemies. Either way, they would have access, or close access to those WMD's. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to know where those WMD's would first be used.

It is easy for all other countries to sit and judge or question our motives. We have no desire to take over other countries for our own gain, nor to take over the world. We have other countries adjoining two borders. When we were attacked, our view of the world changed. No longer could we wait and see about anything. We hate to send our soldiers anywhere there is danger. But when we get up in the morning, go to work, and never come home, because of what 19 wicked men with 4 airplanes did, any threat of that happening again must be stopped.

If you don't agree, I'm sorry, but you did not watch on 9/11 as your parents, sisters, brothers, neighbors, children, or best friends died the horrible death those people suffered. All for the sin of going to work to make a living. They went to work in the buildings that terrorists see as a symbol of American business. I can assure you, no one who died that day had any thought of American might on their minds. And it wasn't just a few people that paid that price just for going to work that morning. We had no one backed into a corner on 9/11, so the argument that we are to blame for whose heads the terrorists cut off is about as stupid as any I've heard yet.

Which is worse, having your head cut off or burning alive? Or jumping from the 100th floor of a burning building to keep from burning alive? Terrorists are the ones committing these acts, not us.

Posted by: Mona at November 29, 2004 10:11 PM

152 Way to go Mona! Couldn't have said it better myself. I was afraid you'd been chased away but wanted to reply as soon as I saw your post pop up.

I have a question for anyone caring to answer it. Whose fault is it that 9/11 happened? I'm curious to hear how many say the USA just got what it deserved. Do any of you realize that in the Muslim countries of the world, there were celebrations when that happened? Do any of you realize that terrorist supporters right here in the USA threw parties to celebrate 9/11? I know that happened, as a family who lived not too far from me threw a big party. Ragheads arrived from far and wide and partied the night away until someone called the FBI and they went and arrested several of them, as the party was full of men who were already being hunted as a result of terrorist activities. So don't try to tell us the world sympathized. You were just glad it wasn't happening to you. Let America deal with it, it's their problem. We always get that attitude, so why should we expect any less of any of you now???

For my queen comment, I do have one for tonight...I think the sour look on her face comes from smelling herself. Being such a rusty old fart can't be odorless.

Posted by: Mary at November 29, 2004 10:25 PM

153 The people celebrating in the streets wasn't from 9/11. A blogger said it was a propaganda film shown that was actually filmed during the Gulf War!

Posted by: Laura at November 30, 2004 09:27 AM

154 Hi all (again)

thought this thread had been put to bed, but in response to Mona, I agree with some points you have made, and I still disagree with others (not going to go into details about what and why cos I cant be bothered anymore)so... I won't make another LONG post trying to convince you otherwise, as you are quite clearly brainwashed, well...at least to some degree....can I ask you this? Can you take off your rose-coloured spectacles and admit to anything that your wonderful country might have got even SLIGHTLY wrong over the last 200 odd years?

Posted by: BradleyOystermouth at December 01, 2004 04:24 PM

155 C'mon Brad the Toaster Mouth, you can do better than that! Why not admit you cannot make yourself look at it from the side of the USA, as you are afraid it all might make sense to you. But then again...who do you irritate by agreeing?

Posted by: mary at December 01, 2004 09:31 PM

156 Mary, ... even the lunatic Arab fundermentalists didnt hate our (the UK's) foreign policy to the degree that they felt the need to fly themselves and 4 hijacked planes into any of OUR tall buildings (that may all change now the UK is shootin' from the hip along with the good ol' US of A)....Methinxs the fundamentalists don't like your foreign policy, which is what i've been saying all along, and what drives them to do these things. I think they are pissed off that in 1948 Israel was created at the expense of Palestine, and the US doesnt seem to quite hold Israel (when it is so obviously guilty of wrongdoing) to account in quite the same as everybody else. I rest my case.

Posted by: BBBBBrad at December 02, 2004 07:43 AM

157 The United Kingdom exists today through the courage and fortitude of the people that fought and in many cases died for the principle of freedom. The United Kingdom is composed of several nations and principalites, not just England. Without the support of the United States of America during both World Wars the UK might have been absorbed into a brutal autocratic super-state that viewed only a certain skin/hair/height/eye colour as being sufficient grounds not to enslaved, brutalised or gassed.

Six million people of the Jewish race were killed, men, women and children, by human beings self absorbed in resolving the hell of a previous World War.

Make no mistake, please, the nation of Israel is the root that grew the 'Old Testament' from which sprang the 'Koran' and provided the foundation apon which Christianity could be conceived. Do not 'mess' with Israel [or do so at your own great cost].

We will all die, whether it be one day, several days, one week, a month, one year several years, a decade or several decades.

We each one of us will not reach a stage when we can stand up and say "i am right on my own account"

I am Scottish not English! my family fought in both World Wars and lost generations through it. I am ashamed that we did not stop the sufferings of the people of Israel in the concentration camps. My Uncle at 19, as a bomber pilot was sent on bombing missions ultimately on suicide missions ["gardening in Lorient"] where he died [three weeks floating dead in the sea and attended when beached by the brave French resistance fighters].

The United States of America was founded on a principle of freedom. Yes, the United States of America has great evil as does all countries. She also has proved through some of the worst times in modern history that she is willing and able to stand up for what is right and fight with great honour and courage to pursue a struggle that is based on liberty and freedom. Too many that criticise the United States of America do so because they have the freedom and liberty to do so, thanks in no small way to the sacrifice made by the USA.

Criticism costs little where you have the liberty to express it, it costs a lot when you may suffer slow torture or death. If changes are needed then begin with yourself first, before crying like a defiant child blaming a principle instrument of your succour.

Gordon McGinn
Scottish not English

Posted by: McGinn, Scotland at December 08, 2004 04:01 PM

158 Margarat Hassan was not murdered by Iraqi's or muslim fundamentalists, but by the secret service of Israel. If you go to any of the legitimate bipartisan middle eastern news organizations, you'll see that this is true. Israel claims publicly to have only 1000 military personel in Iraq, yet they also have 37 rabbis, which would indicate many more. It is well known amongst arabs and iraqis that the CIA and Isreali secret service are present in Iraq.

Posted by: mondo at December 11, 2004 04:50 AM

159 Brad
Brad, you and your small little world. If everything was civilized it'd be a great world. John has seen reality. I have seen reality. You can't just say, oh through diplomacy, all will be solved. How will you understand freedom is not free? Have you seen the memorial statue? Walk through, and maybe you'll get an epiphany. The reason you have these rights is because of the soldiers. Margaret Hassan is one of the modest women I have ever seen. I am deeply troubled by her death. You on the other hand, believe you can negotiate with terrorists. You do not see reality. People like you are the disgrace of this world. Please wake up, and join the marine corps.

Posted by: Peter at December 18, 2004 11:07 AM

160 "Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. . . . But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. . . . Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur'anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim." Ayatollah Khomeini
Now anyone, Democrats included, who think that these lying bastards will ever say anything truthful upon which any hopes or efforts for lasting peace can be based are deceived and pathetic people who will lead themselves only to death and the destruction of democracy forever. This opponent deserves no consideration as operating under the same underpinning and attitudes upon which we ourselves for the most part were raised and educated. They are a primitive and morally degenerate people in their own wickedly perverse fashion. They can be given no quarter, for they will only laugh at any mercy we offer. But what is most obvious now, with many examples, is that they are dedicated, inveterate, cunning and pathological liars, who cannot be believed, and that fact puts the entire so-called "Good Muslims" at severe risk for credibility. If we can trust nothing that they say as truth, we cannot trust them at all.


Posted by: Shep at December 19, 2004 12:40 AM

161 I believe that we invaded Iraq because of the strategic implications of letting other industrialized nations control the flow of oil rather than the US. Lets face it folks, without oil, the American war machine withers and dies (Israel can tell you about that) . I know that if I where part of the military’s 200+ IQ think tanks (yes they do exist), oil locations on the planet, and their control would most likely be a primary factor in maintaining military and industrial superiority within this limited gas / fuel powered industrial age. Anyone who says different is either got their head up their ass or is trying to stick you head up your ass!

Posted by: dogbreath at December 20, 2004 02:47 PM

162 Lying arabs,

Posted by: peter at December 21, 2004 05:05 AM

163 I have long since stopped weighing up the rights and wrongs of this "war".

I would much rather live in a "Western" civilisation - be it the UK or the USA.

If these towel heads ever took over the world (and that is their objective) I would chop my own fucking head off.

I disagree with their morals, I disagree with their religion, I disagree with their entire philosophy of life.

If these scum want to make their own region Islam personified then that's fine with me but when they bring it upon the civilised world (i.e. 9/11)... then that is time to just retaliate and answer questions later.

Wipe this scum out.

By all means worship God, Allah, The Easter Bunny or whatever shit you want but don't make people die for it and if you are the kind that makes people die for it, be assured that you will be hunted down and you will die by the civilised world.

Sometimes censorship turns to war.

And the next time you're aiming a rock against a tank, ask why that should be.

The USA is but a baby in the great timescale of the world yet Islam is at least a grand-dad.

Living by Islam brings you a rock and living by capitalism brings you a satellite targetted rocket... Hmmm... maybe living by Allah is not as powerful as living by a rational mind after all.

I want this war to pick up speed. I want religion to die tomorrow. If it can't die tomorrow then I want people to realise it no longer has the power to change the world.

God (Allah etc) hasn't spoken for quite some time now.

Let's face it... there's just us. Humans.

We can either spend our lives killing in the name of this shit or decide to help each other and each live a decent and peacful life.

To all Extremist Muslims out there... get the family together and watch Disney's "Jungle Book" one afternoon or go visit your parents then go out to work producing for your country.

It might not get your name in the history books but it's actually not a bad life and no one gets killed.

If you're still hell bent on being famous, write some music, draw some pictures, build a bridge, offer some peaceful philosophy on life and how to live it without resorting to beheading anyone who disagrees.

Basically, learn to love, learn to live, learn not to seek the path of destruction as a means to progress (which in your case means regress).

People like the mod cons, they aint gonna want to regress to the dark ages.

Onwards and upwards, progress, progress, progress... live and let live or die like the dogs your actions prove you to be.

Do this now or do this later but it's the only way forward.



Posted by: Red Devil at December 22, 2004 06:14 PM

164 you are all a bunch of loosers

Posted by: kayleigh at February 01, 2005 03:51 PM

165 They are known as Imams, Clerics & Mullahs, we are known as infidels.
In general we are unclean, not to be trusted & looked down upon by both the Sunii & Shiite Muslims.
Specifically, we are hated by many of the Shiite fundamentalists.
There are hundreds of Clerics who plant seeds of hatred towards the infidels & these seeds by the hundreds of thousands are spread across countless square miles of deserts & mountains. These seeds have been producing & multiplying since even before the days of the Crusaders.
I lived in this area for almost nine years, I know the Muslim beliefs, I mingled with the people, I came to admire & even love some of them. I know that I still could have been killed over there strictly on the whim of an extremist Cleric even though I was not "an ugly American".
I am not a dove or some radical protestor, I proudly served during the Viet Nam era in the U.S. Navy.
This "war" is going to be worse than Viet Nam, not in human casualties but merely because we did NOT LEARN from history.
Please contact our President & other elected representatives, urge them to cut our losses & get out, NOW.
The only other option is to take over all the oil fields in Iraq, protect the fields, ship the oil to America & tell OPEC to kiss our all American _ _ _ !!!

Posted by: scott at February 05, 2005 11:53 PM

166 SOMETHING IS COMING...

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Posted by: Jon at May 02, 2005 09:25 PM

168 Replying to Brad Loveburger III, you should pull a tour of duty in Iraq and meet some of the citizens there. I met many wonderful people there that, while they do not want the US military in their country for an extended period of time, they are truly grateful that we liberated them from a tyrant like Saddam Hussein. Remember it was only sixty years ago that if weren't for the US, you would be speaking German rather than English and saying Heil Hitler. One thing I forgot...it would seem most British are opposed to anyone fighting for their freedom from a tyrant as it happened with your American colonies over 200 years ago.

Posted by: William at May 02, 2005 11:46 PM

169 You are all the nastiest and most vile people I have ever seen. No wonder we got canned. All of you are BUNCH of DUMBASS SHITS. Especially that EVIL BITCH FUCK LAURA and anyone who is a Nasty Fucker!!None of you fuckers are UNITED at all; you patriot wanna-bes...Especially that ignorant fuck Laura. How can you dare call yourself an American when you speak so disrespectfully to your own neighbor. You had it coming BITCH! You should support those who have been hurt in all of this instead of keeping it going you ignorant butch dyke of a cunt!!

Posted by: Connor and Laci at July 23, 2005 12:39 PM

170 how i cried when i heard the news of margaret i hope them disgusting evil sick bastards suffer pain for the rest of their lives then burn in hell forever what on earth had that innocent lady ever done wrong? i pray for margaret still even today that she is at peace in paradise, dont worry margaret them bastards will get their commupence r.i.p.
x x x
katie

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i hope they die painfully

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