Qana : The Hole (or lack thereof) in the SPIKE Theory (UPDATED, BUMPED)
UPDATE : Found some video of the Qana ambulances and a few more pics of ambulance 782--below the fold. (h/t: Allah, Dan Riehl and the HotAir commenters)UPDATE 2 : Here's a pic of a SPIKE missile taking out a pickup truck. Notice what happened to the roof:
According to Human Rights Watch, there's a hole in the floor of each of Red Cross ambulances 777 and 782. They've provided a picture of the hole in the floor of ambulance 777, but curiosly failed to provide one of the hole in the floor of ambulance 782. I've been down in the bowels of the Sandcrawler scouring the vast Jawa Report image archives for pictures of the floor of Red Cross ambulance 782. Here's what I've found so far. Can anyone show me where the "hole" is in the floorpan?
USA, all the way!
Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 29, 2006 06:55 AM
Posted by: Jeff Bargholz at December 29, 2006 06:59 AM
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 29, 2006 09:17 AM
Like a colander, there are way too many holes in this story to hold water.
Posted by: rtheyseryus at December 29, 2006 10:53 AM
Disclaimer via http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2002/Aug/Stakes_Are.htm
"A U.S. industry official dismissed the notion that Spike ER could pose a serious challenge to TOW or Hellfire. Rafael claims that Spike ER is in service, but often the IDF is seen firing TOWs, the source said. Rafael is still “working out the kinks,” he said. “Rafael is trying to get customers to use Spike ER as it completes development."
Even if we allow that the 'Spike' may not be as badass as a Hellfire, these ambulances weren't hit by any type of anti-tank missile.
Details about the 'Spike' Missile from http://www.army-technology.com/projects/gill/
"After launch the missile follows a lofted trajectory and as it approaches the target it dives down to impact the target. The lofted trajectory and the tandem high explosive warhead enables the missile to penetrate tanks equipped with Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA)."
Israel has apparently only deployed the 'Spike-ER'. here is more from the above link;
The extended range (8km) version, Spike-ER, also has a larger warhead."
"Rafael has developed a version of Spike-ER with a Penetration, Blast and Fragmentation (PBF) warhead which only explodes after penetration of the target (e.g. a wall), minimising collateral damage."
So it would be designed to explode INSIDE the target.
THIS NEXT LINK SHOWS THE EXPLOSION OF A 'SPIKE-ER' MISSILE, as well as providing other useful information; http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/anti-armor/n-td/N-TD.html
and from http://www.tealgroup.com/samples/sample-wmb.pdf
"Spike-MR Manportable ATGMThe Spike-MR is a lightweightmissile in the same category as the US
Army’s Javelin. The missile uses a lofted trajectory for impact on the upper surfaces of the enemy tank. The warhead is a tandem, shaped charge type for penetration of roof-mounted reactive armor. "
"Propulsion System The NT missiles are powered by an ejector motor and a flight motor. The ejector motor is located in the aft compartment of the missile. The solid sustainer engine is located in the forward portion of the missile body and is exhausted through two ports on the fuselage side."
So where does the rocket exhaust go when the missile enters a sheet metal box? Does it burn anything? Ignite anything?
we get the following;
"In all three test flights on May 26, SPIKE's reduced-smoke motor propelled the missile from the launcher with barely a visible wisp of smoke. The missile accelerated to 600 miles per hour in under 1.5 seconds."
Weight of bag of cement = 94 lbs
Weight of 'Spike-ER' = 73 lbs
Imagine either one hitting a sheet metal box at 600 mph! Even if it doesn't explode.
Now to compare 'Spike-ER' with one of the missiles it is suppossed to replace.
From "Armored Cav" by Tom Clancy, Published Nov 1994;
"Hellfire is a larger missile than TOW, weighing in at 99.6lb/45.3kg. Unlike TOW, it is guided by the laser designator of the TADS/PNVS system in the nose of the Apache, which allows it to have a much longer range (in excess of 5 miles/8 kilometers) and a much higher speed---super-sonic. It also has a considerably larger warhead than TOW-2, with more than 20lb/9.1kg of high explosive in the tandem warhead (two shaped charges, one behind the other) of the AGM-114F version. If you are wondering just how much damage such a warhead can do, consider that the earlier AGM-114Cs, with a single-charge warhead, not only penetrated the armor of Iraqi T-72s, but blew them completely apart at the welds!"
Thank you Tom!
In short, twelve years ago, the Hellfire, in it's less powerful variant, would rip apart a Main Battle Tank. The mass of an M1 tank turret is 26 tons, and for a leopard tank, it is 20 tons, so to be extra fair, lets say a T-72 has only a 15 ton turret (don't have the right book handy or I could do better)
Now the closest type of ambulance I could find in "Jane's Military Logistics 1989" ( Sorry I didn't get a newer one) was the Renault B90, which weighs about 2 tons carrying six stretchers, and it even has a little dome on top. OH, and it isn't armored either.
So we are looking at a 7 1/2 to 1 ratio in mass, even allowing the weaker warhead, and remember, the more massive object is still ripped apart "at the welds"! If 'Spike' is only half as good, it should still demolish an amulance, by a 3.75 to 1 ratio!
We need to realize also, that if the missile penetrated the roof, and the floor, before detonating, there is such a thing as concussion caused by an object traveling at about 80% the speed of sound, weighing 73 lbs hitting your little sheet metal box. If the initial concussion were inflicted inside a closed ambulance, the occupants might become jelly. We can only imagine until a physics proffessor chimes in. Consider that a request.
Never mind that the missiles engine would still blast the inside with its thrust, as it passed through the body of the ambulance! That's the thrust that pushes the missile at 600 mph! That's a lot of thrust!
Never mind that if the missile flew all the way though to the ground, the warhead would end up going off UNDER the ambulance, still possessing the necessary force to wreck a tank! Never mind that there were claims that "two" missiles hit one ambulance! Oh! Thats a good one!
So what if there was a hole in the floor. I have access to a blow torch! I can fake it as well as they can! I bet I could do better! I at least know something about missiles! I could burn up the inside a bit, not just knock a few dinky holes in it.
If the anti-Israel crowd can't be convinced by facts, it is because they don't want to be. Any lefty trolls want to play, I've got more!
Here is a test for the lefties ... Do you know how an anti-armor shaped charge is suppossed to work? Do you have any idea what the temperatures are, at the point of contact, for a missile like the ones we are talking about?
I'll give you a hint ... its enough to instantly transform steel into molten mist! It is for sure enough to utterly destroy alluminum! For sure enough to twist remaining sheet metal into the origame of the damned! Forget the vinyl seat covers, and the dashboard! Maybe the ambulance driver was wearing his 'sunscreen' extra thick that day!?
Oh, and the fact the gasoline tank didn't rupture and burn in either ambulance just begs to be mocked! You aren't going to try and explain that away are you, friends of Hezbo-lies?
I could go on. I know the smart people here already agree with me. The HRW guys either are aiding and abetting, or they are just that dumb!
I intend to share this with others as well, so they don't just buy the AP version.
So have fun Jawa's. Add to this, and keep it coming! Defeat the lie!
USA, all the way!
Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 29, 2006 04:52 PM
USA, all the way!
Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 29, 2006 05:12 PM
Posted by: Neil at December 29, 2006 06:35 PM
Did you see what I said about DIME, in the other thread?
Posted by: davec at December 29, 2006 06:59 PM
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold, Pawn of the Illuminati at December 29, 2006 07:14 PM
You have a dense relatively inert powdered metal casing with a small amount of explosives. It tears apart everything nearby when it detonates and since it is powdered metal it doesn't eject large amounts of shrapnel.
Now when you detonate any explosive currently in use by the major military forces, you have a flame component. The paint in these pictures shows no signs of scorching, bubbling, etc. In other words, there was no explosion. If there was all of the windows would have been blown out by the shock wave. This is a farce.
Posted by: Perplexed at December 29, 2006 09:35 PM
Posted by: templar knight at December 29, 2006 09:54 PM
I understand details may be classified, and truth to tell, I also know a lot of the manuals for things don't say what the weapon will penetrate, or how hot the armor peircing jet gets, or any of that. That's probably so if guys like me get ahold of a manual, we don't accidentally reveal that sort of info to an enemy over the internet. Still ...
Non-classified anecdotes, or opinion, by experienced persons, would be really nice.
USA, all the way!
PS. I think Jeff has a point about the FOX news idea. People are thirsty for truth, and that is why FOX is popular.
Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 29, 2006 11:38 PM
Posted by: Jeff Bargholz at December 29, 2006 11:50 PM
Even if the injury is real, I saved some images from yahoo last summer that used a single child, obviously wounded, but the captions said he had been hit by gunmen, then a morter shell, that his family member was killed, or wounded, or missing. Whatever was convienient. Other images were used the same way.
For all we know, the one legged man lost his leg when the jack slipped while he was changing a tire. Clumsy bastard. It goes with the clumsy lie.
USA, all the way!
Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 29, 2006 11:51 PM
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 30, 2006 09:19 AM
Posted by: Phil at December 30, 2006 10:34 PM
USA, all the way!
Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 31, 2006 05:06 AM
The ones where trolls can assert their moral superiority, climb upon their high horse and lecture others are often overrun.
Ones involving statements of fact, OTOH, not so much.
Facts---the ultimate troll repellant.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at December 31, 2006 12:48 PM
Also the shrapnel caused by this projectile striking oak, and other materials was ghastly. Oak was prefered on warships because teak shrapnel would 'go septic' far more readily.
This is non-exploding roundshot.
Just in case you cared.
Happy New year!
USA, all the way!
Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 31, 2006 06:44 PM
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