Qana : The Hole (or lack thereof) in the SPIKE Theory (UPDATED, BUMPED)

UPDATE : Found some video of the Qana ambulances and a few more pics of ambulance 782--below the fold. (h/t: Allah, Dan Riehl and the HotAir commenters)

UPDATE 2 : Here's a pic of a SPIKE missile taking out a pickup truck. Notice what happened to the roof:

Spike_Warhead_truck_img5_Small.jpg

Here's a video of the ambulances taken this Summer. If there were holes in the floorpans of the ambulances, the journalists didn't see fit to get shots of them:

Here's a video of the victims in the hospital, which includes a shot of the stretcher which supposedly took a direct hit from a missile. While the mattress shows signs of damage, the stretcher appears intact:

MORE BELOW THE FOLD

According to Human Rights Watch, there's a hole in the floor of each of Red Cross ambulances 777 and 782. They've provided a picture of the hole in the floor of ambulance 777, but curiosly failed to provide one of the hole in the floor of ambulance 782. I've been down in the bowels of the Sandcrawler scouring the vast Jawa Report image archives for pictures of the floor of Red Cross ambulance 782. Here's what I've found so far. Can anyone show me where the "hole" is in the floorpan?

inside_van.jpg

red_cross_full.jpg

amb-youtube2.JPG

amb-youtube3.JPG

P7310040.jpg

P7310044_001.jpg

P7310045.jpg

Posted by: Ragnar at 05:00 PM

Comments

1 Hole, shmole! I have access to a blow torch too.

USA, all the way!

Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 29, 2006 06:55 AM

2 I see the hole. It's in Human Rights Watch's story,m and it's HUGE.

Posted by: Jeff Bargholz at December 29, 2006 06:59 AM

3 Here's what I see as the biggest inconsistancy. The ambulance drivers remember seeing a giant fireball, yet there is clearly no evidence of an explosion. ANY explosive munition, including a DIME or a SPIKE would have obliterated the ambulance. But if it was a kinetic missile, some sort of mini LOSAT, there would be no 'fireball'. Finally, from the Israeli perspective, it still doesn't make much sense. Lets say you are an Israeli drone pilot and you see two Red Cross ambulances that you want to blow up. But your drone is armed with some sort of low grade mini missile that you should know will only cause minimal damage to an ambulance. Why open fire, knowing that you will do nothing other than punch a hole in the vehicle and possibly only kill or injure one person? Wouldn't it be easier to call in an artillery strike or an air strike of some sort? I mean, is he just screwing with the ambulances or does he want them destroyed. This whole attack is based on the theory that some evil Jew drone pilot was fvcking with Red Cross ambulances like a cat plays with a mouse before he eats it.

Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 29, 2006 09:17 AM

4 Not only is there no hole visible in these photos . . .take a look at the geurny. I'm not certain which ambulance was involved but the story mentioned a guerny exhibiting visible damage from the 'missile' corresponding with a male patient's severe leg injury - which went unattended for an hour and forty minutes while the ambulance crew went hiding in a nearby bldg. Note the lack of irony in the injury detail - the missile nearly amputates a leg and yet the patient didn't bleed to death during the extensive period he was left to float in and out of consciousness after the 'attack'.

Like a colander, there are way too many holes in this story to hold water.


Posted by: rtheyseryus at December 29, 2006 10:53 AM

5 If there is a hole in the bottom of either ambulance, it is crude smoke and mirrors! If 'Human Rights Watch wants to insist that these ambulances were hit by missiles, they are idiots, or liars. Take your pick.

Disclaimer via http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2002/Aug/Stakes_Are.htm

"A U.S. industry official dismissed the notion that Spike ER could pose a serious challenge to TOW or Hellfire. Rafael claims that Spike ER is in service, but often the IDF is seen firing TOWs, the source said. Rafael is still “working out the kinks,” he said. “Rafael is trying to get customers to use Spike ER as it completes development."

Even if we allow that the 'Spike' may not be as badass as a Hellfire, these ambulances weren't hit by any type of anti-tank missile.

Details about the 'Spike' Missile from http://www.army-technology.com/projects/gill/

"After launch the missile follows a lofted trajectory and as it approaches the target it dives down to impact the target. The lofted trajectory and the tandem high explosive warhead enables the missile to penetrate tanks equipped with Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA)."

Israel has apparently only deployed the 'Spike-ER'. here is more from the above link;

"SPIKE-ER
The extended range (8km) version, Spike-ER, also has a larger warhead."
and
"Rafael has developed a version of Spike-ER with a Penetration, Blast and Fragmentation (PBF) warhead which only explodes after penetration of the target (e.g. a wall), minimising collateral damage."
So it would be designed to explode INSIDE the target.

THIS NEXT LINK SHOWS THE EXPLOSION OF A 'SPIKE-ER' MISSILE, as well as providing other useful information; http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/anti-armor/n-td/N-TD.html

and from http://www.tealgroup.com/samples/sample-wmb.pdf
"Spike-MR Manportable ATGMThe Spike-MR is a lightweightmissile in the same category as the US
Army’s Javelin. The missile uses a lofted trajectory for impact on the upper surfaces of the enemy tank. The warhead is a tandem, shaped charge type for penetration of roof-mounted reactive armor. "
Also
"Propulsion System The NT missiles are powered by an ejector motor and a flight motor. The ejector motor is located in the aft compartment of the missile. The solid sustainer engine is located in the forward portion of the missile body and is exhausted through two ports on the fuselage side."
So where does the rocket exhaust go when the missile enters a sheet metal box? Does it burn anything? Ignite anything?

From http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_SPIKE,,00.html
we get the following;
"In all three test flights on May 26, SPIKE's reduced-smoke motor propelled the missile from the launcher with barely a visible wisp of smoke. The missile accelerated to 600 miles per hour in under 1.5 seconds."

Weight of bag of cement = 94 lbs
Weight of 'Spike-ER' = 73 lbs
Imagine either one hitting a sheet metal box at 600 mph! Even if it doesn't explode.

Now to compare 'Spike-ER' with one of the missiles it is suppossed to replace.
From "Armored Cav" by Tom Clancy, Published Nov 1994;
"Hellfire is a larger missile than TOW, weighing in at 99.6lb/45.3kg. Unlike TOW, it is guided by the laser designator of the TADS/PNVS system in the nose of the Apache, which allows it to have a much longer range (in excess of 5 miles/8 kilometers) and a much higher speed---super-sonic. It also has a considerably larger warhead than TOW-2, with more than 20lb/9.1kg of high explosive in the tandem warhead (two shaped charges, one behind the other) of the AGM-114F version. If you are wondering just how much damage such a warhead can do, consider that the earlier AGM-114Cs, with a single-charge warhead, not only penetrated the armor of Iraqi T-72s, but blew them completely apart at the welds!"

Thank you Tom!

In short, twelve years ago, the Hellfire, in it's less powerful variant, would rip apart a Main Battle Tank. The mass of an M1 tank turret is 26 tons, and for a leopard tank, it is 20 tons, so to be extra fair, lets say a T-72 has only a 15 ton turret (don't have the right book handy or I could do better)

Now the closest type of ambulance I could find in "Jane's Military Logistics 1989" ( Sorry I didn't get a newer one) was the Renault B90, which weighs about 2 tons carrying six stretchers, and it even has a little dome on top. OH, and it isn't armored either.

So we are looking at a 7 1/2 to 1 ratio in mass, even allowing the weaker warhead, and remember, the more massive object is still ripped apart "at the welds"! If 'Spike' is only half as good, it should still demolish an amulance, by a 3.75 to 1 ratio!

We need to realize also, that if the missile penetrated the roof, and the floor, before detonating, there is such a thing as concussion caused by an object traveling at about 80% the speed of sound, weighing 73 lbs hitting your little sheet metal box. If the initial concussion were inflicted inside a closed ambulance, the occupants might become jelly. We can only imagine until a physics proffessor chimes in. Consider that a request.

Never mind that the missiles engine would still blast the inside with its thrust, as it passed through the body of the ambulance! That's the thrust that pushes the missile at 600 mph! That's a lot of thrust!

Never mind that if the missile flew all the way though to the ground, the warhead would end up going off UNDER the ambulance, still possessing the necessary force to wreck a tank! Never mind that there were claims that "two" missiles hit one ambulance! Oh! Thats a good one!

So what if there was a hole in the floor. I have access to a blow torch! I can fake it as well as they can! I bet I could do better! I at least know something about missiles! I could burn up the inside a bit, not just knock a few dinky holes in it.

If the anti-Israel crowd can't be convinced by facts, it is because they don't want to be. Any lefty trolls want to play, I've got more!

Here is a test for the lefties ... Do you know how an anti-armor shaped charge is suppossed to work? Do you have any idea what the temperatures are, at the point of contact, for a missile like the ones we are talking about?

I'll give you a hint ... its enough to instantly transform steel into molten mist! It is for sure enough to utterly destroy alluminum! For sure enough to twist remaining sheet metal into the origame of the damned! Forget the vinyl seat covers, and the dashboard! Maybe the ambulance driver was wearing his 'sunscreen' extra thick that day!?

Oh, and the fact the gasoline tank didn't rupture and burn in either ambulance just begs to be mocked! You aren't going to try and explain that away are you, friends of Hezbo-lies?

I could go on. I know the smart people here already agree with me. The HRW guys either are aiding and abetting, or they are just that dumb!

I intend to share this with others as well, so they don't just buy the AP version.

So have fun Jawa's. Add to this, and keep it coming! Defeat the lie!

USA, all the way!

Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 29, 2006 04:52 PM

6 And I'm sorry I had to use so much space, but if this helps, I trust you will forgive me :)

USA, all the way!

Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 29, 2006 05:12 PM

7 Can anyone produce a picture of a vehicle that has been verifiably hit by ANY kind of missile leaving the target in such great condition as the ambulance?

Posted by: Neil at December 29, 2006 06:35 PM

8 Ragnor:
Did you see what I said about DIME, in the other thread?

Posted by: davec at December 29, 2006 06:59 PM

9 davecI saw that. Thank you for the info. HRW was the party asserting the existence of "the DIME missile" (see my update at the top). My response to their assertion is that there is no missile known as "the DIME missile." Just another example of rampant sloppiness on the part of HRW.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold, Pawn of the Illuminati at December 29, 2006 07:14 PM

10 DIME=DenseInertMetalExplosive

You have a dense relatively inert powdered metal casing with a small amount of explosives. It tears apart everything nearby when it detonates and since it is powdered metal it doesn't eject large amounts of shrapnel.

Now when you detonate any explosive currently in use by the major military forces, you have a flame component. The paint in these pictures shows no signs of scorching, bubbling, etc. In other words, there was no explosion. If there was all of the windows would have been blown out by the shock wave. This is a farce.

Posted by: Perplexed at December 29, 2006 09:35 PM

11 These ambulances were attacked by a bunch of ragheads with sledgehammers, in an effort to get the fools and accomplices in the press to report an Israeli missle attack. They succeeded, in spite of the evidence that should be obvious to all but fools and collaborators. You know where that puts the AP, HRW, and the mainstream media.

Posted by: templar knight at December 29, 2006 09:54 PM

12 Hasn't anyone reading the Jawa report ever actually used anti-armor weapons? I wish we could get someone to come forward with a "it looks fake to me based on my first hand experience" type comment.

I understand details may be classified, and truth to tell, I also know a lot of the manuals for things don't say what the weapon will penetrate, or how hot the armor peircing jet gets, or any of that. That's probably so if guys like me get ahold of a manual, we don't accidentally reveal that sort of info to an enemy over the internet. Still ...

Non-classified anecdotes, or opinion, by experienced persons, would be really nice.

Any takers?

USA, all the way!

PS. I think Jeff has a point about the FOX news idea. People are thirsty for truth, and that is why FOX is popular.

Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 29, 2006 11:38 PM

13 HRW is a willing participant in the hoax. When the old story was exposed as a fraud,it trotted outthis new story about SPIKEs and DIMEs. The ideawas to invent a plausible way to accuse Israel of an atrocity, but thestupid slugs who carried out the plot were tooincompetent to pull it off.HRW regularly proclaims that America and Israel are worse than the terrorists, so I'm sure none of you are surprised.Ironically, HRW is a human rights abuser itselffor slandering progressive countries, while excusing and covering up the crimes of truly oppressive ones. Like most humanitarian HMOs, it started out with noble intentions, but has sincebeen highjacked from within by left-wing extremists. HRW also employs plenty of islamopithecines, and they serve one master above all others. (Jihad.)VINNIE, youshould sendthese Qana/HRWexpose's to Fox News. Fox is always on the lookout for stories like this. It uses them to scoop and denigrate the Establishment Media, which choose to cover up stories like this if they notice them. Usually Fox just steals these stories without crediting the blog source, but if it's offered freely, maybe it will cite the source. You cant buy publicity like that. The more publicity you get, the more readers you get, the more readers you get, the more your message goes out.I think Jawa's message is important. That's why I read it.

Posted by: Jeff Bargholz at December 29, 2006 11:50 PM

14 I could also fake the 'one legged man' in the hospital bed. I took Stagecraft, and Drama in Highschool. All this weak video evidence they have from the hospital, is amusing.

Even if the injury is real, I saved some images from yahoo last summer that used a single child, obviously wounded, but the captions said he had been hit by gunmen, then a morter shell, that his family member was killed, or wounded, or missing. Whatever was convienient. Other images were used the same way.

For all we know, the one legged man lost his leg when the jack slipped while he was changing a tire. Clumsy bastard. It goes with the clumsy lie.

USA, all the way!

Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 29, 2006 11:51 PM

15 Only JOOOOOOoooozzz could come up with a missile that destroys without destrying.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 30, 2006 09:19 AM

16 Hey, how about HRW's picture of the guy with an amputated leg? May this link will give a clue how it was done:
http://www.golferssource.com/images/product/videos/humor/3651.gif

Posted by: Phil at December 30, 2006 10:34 PM

17 Right on Phil!

USA, all the way!

Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 31, 2006 05:06 AM

18 It's always interesting to me which threads attract trolls and which don't.

The ones where trolls can assert their moral superiority, climb upon their high horse and lecture others are often overrun.

Ones involving statements of fact, OTOH, not so much.

Facts---the ultimate troll repellant.

Posted by: Lurking Observer at December 31, 2006 12:48 PM

19 In the eighteenth century, a 24-pounder smoothbore could develop a muzzle velocity of about 1,700 feet per second. One third the weight of Spike-ER moving about twice as fast. it could penetrate FOUR AND ONE HALF FEET OF PRIME OAK.

Also the shrapnel caused by this projectile striking oak, and other materials was ghastly. Oak was prefered on warships because teak shrapnel would 'go septic' far more readily.

This is non-exploding roundshot.

Just in case you cared.

Happy New year!
USA, all the way!

Posted by: Michael Weaver at December 31, 2006 06:44 PM

20 Anyone consider that it was a dud mortar round that hit the ambulances? Of course that would have been due to the civil war they are having in Palestine, but it seems more possible.

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