He's Going To Buy A Gun, And He's Serious
This is an open-thread type post to solicit advice for Dr. Rusty Shackleford to aid him in his quest to defend himself and his family.My two cents for Rusty is to get trained by a certified firearms instructor. Update by Howie: How about this one? Update by Vinnie: Nah, I like this one better: Thanks to everyone leaving the excellent advice for Rusty. He is reading it, I can assure you.
What is your experience with guns (handgun, rifle shotgun?) I'm asking you this question because, we have preconceived notion of firearms based from movies and cultural surroundings. I'm a firearms dealer out of Corpus Christi, TX. For home usage, I recommend a 20 gauge or 410 pump action shotgun, if your family doesn't have a lot of experience with firearms. If you want to discuss this subject in more detail, just email me.
Posted by: James at July 29, 2006 07:03 PM
PS-That was a joke. Please don't kill me!
Posted by: Rusty at July 29, 2006 07:14 PM
My advice? Pistol. Learn to range shoot and then--when you learn the basics--learn how to combat shoot. I'm sure Bluto would know some good training resources. The local PD may have someone that can point the way to teaching you some good stuff.
Try for a concealed permit too. (Hard to do with the shotgun, I'm afraid). Since your website was literally BANNED in the second most populous country in the world, it wouldn't be too hard to establish that you've pissed some people off, somemisunderstanderers of Islam that might--theoretically--like to kill you.
Posted by: Verc at July 29, 2006 07:19 PM
Posted by: Preston Taylor Holmes at July 29, 2006 07:20 PM
If you have little knowledge of firearms, a good starter gun would be a 38 revolver of good quality. Bear in mind that most problems occur at night, so tritium nite sights are a good idea. It's better to have a gun you can use than to have the latest trick on the block.
... You've got to be prepared to shoulder the responsibility required of gun ownership.
Posted by: bill at July 29, 2006 07:32 PM
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 29, 2006 07:54 PM
Remington semi-automatic sawed-off 12-gauge.
Stock and barrel.
Easy to wield.
Pull out the governor so it holds seven shells with one chambered.
Alternate 00, slug, 00 etc.
Holstered 357 S&W Magnum.
Strapped Bowie knife.
Posted by: Agent Jones at July 29, 2006 07:58 PM
The main thing is to learn how to use it, and keep it ready where it can be used if necessary.
Posted by: Robert at July 29, 2006 08:03 PM
Posted by: Mark James at July 29, 2006 08:39 PM
High-dollar to be sure, and I can only personally vouch for Blackwater's training (Gunsite I only know by reputation), but professional instruction is NEVER wasted money.
I'll say it another way: the purchase of the weapon is just the beginning... you should be spending far more on training than you ever spent on the firearm.
Remember, you are the weapon; will, mindset, ability to think/problem-solve under pressure, tactics... the gun is just the tool.
Posted by: TheNewGuy at July 29, 2006 08:55 PM
Posted by: FASTAC 6 at July 29, 2006 09:09 PM
Locking gun cabinet Especially around kids.
Just the basics. Small to medium rifle cheap ammo 22-250 or 243. Shotgun, .410 pump is excellent if your state allows .410 slugs or 20 guage heavy shot. Smaller handgun to start out 32 or .380. things everyone is comfortable with and is cheap to shoot
It doesn't take a big gun to kill butthe more shots the better.It has to be one you feel like it fits you,comfortable with its size and weight.Big is cool until youhave to run with it or your wife is scared to shoot it. Or maybe it held 6 big ones when 30 little ones are better.
And remember its far more likelythat someone will get hurt accidentallyor in anger than you will have to use it.
I say that becuase I knew two guys who's wives, you know, shot them.
And my grandpa saysdon't ever fuck around with a gun. It's a tool and unless you really plan to have to maybe kill someone it's best to leave it alone or not show it at all ever. He also kept a sawed off double barrell shotgun with a hare triggerand doubleshotnext to the door. Touch it and your ass was on fire. But he worked morning tower and had four daughters. The instructions wereif someone were trying to get in we were to, "Point it at the door, turn off the saftey ,hold on and pull the little trigger in back"
Also get a barky dog. If you don't know they are there there will be no time to be ready. Also I like to keep a few bats and stuff here and there.Have a plan and know your area, running you know it better then they will. I have but one or maybe two. Possibly three.
After all that they can still, you know, get you.
Posted by: Howie at July 29, 2006 09:10 PM
Posted by: Agent Jones at July 29, 2006 09:16 PM
Okay so if we are all going to talk smack about our weapons prep, here I go.
SKS 7.62 semi auto easily reconfigured. Cost about $150 US at any gun show. Fires a man stopper of a round. Shoprt especially without the bayonet. And very affordable. Accurate out to around 300 yds. Comes with a cleaning kit.
Browning 9mm High Power semi auto pistol. Light slim, and very accurate. Smooth action, but not available in the US any longer. Will set you back $800+ US. But a better feeling firearm you may not find.
New Army model 1864 Replica Black powder revolver. .44 caliber round. If ever in a pinch I can make my own rounds, powder and still shoot from coal, salt peter, and sulpher. (Just Kidding) It is a show piece.
My dream gun is a Winchester model 186? lever action that fired a 44 round just like the old cowboys and cavalry fired.
Posted by: Cmunk at July 29, 2006 09:30 PM
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 29, 2006 09:39 PM
Now the M-16 or AR-15 is accurate out beyond 500 yds. An expert marksman can go out even further.
If you are serious about a semi auto with stopping power and long range, the M-1 National Match is a nice choice. You can go 1000 yds and more with a scope. Plus practicing with a finely engineered piece like that is a rare pleasure. It is long, and quite heavy compared to just about every other semi auto out there. But the Marines owned the Pacific using it.
If you are looking for a bruiser of a hand gun, Desert Eagles come in a .44 magnum and a .50 Cal version. The 50 is not easy to shoot. Serious recoil even for a semi auto. Rounds are expensive, and very loud. If you don't hit what you are aiming at,the sound wave will knock the shit out of them.
Posted by: Cmunk at July 29, 2006 09:49 PM
Posted by: Cmunk at July 29, 2006 10:00 PM
1) Home Defense, and 2) Personal Defense (Conceiled carry).
There is NOTHING better for home defense than a pump action shotgun. Every perp on the planet knows the sound of a shell being jacked into the chamber, and the overwhelming majority of them will, 1) Piss their pants at the sound, and then, 2) Run like an olympian to get the hell out of your castle leaving only a puddle behind. The BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME is to scare off the intruder without having to drop the hammer on him.
For concieled carry, ALL SEMI-AUTO's SUCK! Why? Just shooting them spews evidence all over tarnation in the form of spent shell casings. That means a warning shot gives you completely away to any CSI types who can generally locate the scene, while finding a spent bullet in granma Jones' garden a half mile away is orders of magnitude harder than finding a needle in a haystack. Dig? I don't know why anybody would carry a semi-auto. It's retarded. Remember, the best possible outcome is if you simply SCARE THE PERP OUT OF THEN YEARS WORTH OF HIS LIFE: Actually shooting someone causes years worth of legal hassles, even if you are 100% dead to rights within the law.
Personally, I find that a pair of DA-only five shot hammerless snub revolvers in plain, old .38 SPL to be the best of all possible worlds. They are small, relatively light, and you can have one in each coat pocket for balance, and whichever hand is closest can grab one (Learn to fire ambidextrously; especially if you ride a motorcycle). Plus, .38 ammo is cheap and ubiquitous: Proficiency with a handgun requires CONSTANT PRACTICE, or you will get rusty (Hehe).
I'm not a pro, but I've been an NRA member since I was old enough to shoot 50' indoor in the Jr. NRA, and I have won many, MANY marksmanship awards. I've spent a lot of time with people who have thought all of this through, so it's not like these are all my ideas. Positive peer pressure, let's call it.
Posted by: Hucbald at July 29, 2006 10:15 PM
I'll third the comments above about a .38 revolver from a reputable manufacturer. But if you buy a .357 magnum, you can shoot .38 ammunition in it just fine. (The bullets are actually the same diameter--.355 inch.) Those are all easy to use and learn and you can train Missus Jawa very easily as well. When things get all funny, if the gun is loaded you only need to remember to pull the trigger--no extra switches or safeties or gizmos.
Trouble with that is pretty soon you're going to want to buy another one...
I'd say go to a range or talk to a local gun nut and try out a few and see which kinds you like--barrel length, recoil, etc.
Posted by: See-Dubya at July 29, 2006 10:18 PM
Posted by: bags75 at July 29, 2006 10:19 PM
That being said, revolvers are great starter guns. The problem is that they are tougher to reload, and sometimes tougher to shoot. Go to a range that rents a wide variety of weapons, preferably with a handgun-proficient friend, and try everything. A GLOCK or Springfield XD is a little more complicated internally, but shooting them is as simple as a revolver. Point and click. Ultimately, the gun that you're comfortable operating will be the right one.
Caliber-wise, I'd try to stay at least with 9mm or .38 spl. And be sure to use expanding (jacketed hollowpoint) ammunition.
If you're going to carry a weapon or use it for defense of the home, you MUST have a quality illumination tool. Part of lawyer-proofing means that you must have gotten a good look at the perp so you KNEW FOR SURE what you were shooting at. This means you'll also have to learn how to use a handgun with a flashlight. It's a challenge, but not impossible, and you can practice at any range. I spend half of my range time shooting one-handed for this reason.
I recommend Surefire brand flashlights. If the light kicks out more than 65 lumens, it can disorient an attacker and ruin his nightvision, giving you the time you need to take a few steps to the side and fire or flee.
Posted by: Scott Ganz at July 29, 2006 10:31 PM
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 29, 2006 10:31 PM
I'll agree on the comments re: the AR-15/M-16 to a certain extent. If you never plan to clean your gun, the AR isn't your best option. An AR can behave poorly if it's not treated well. If you have no interest in maintenance, the AK is a better option. Then again, a lot of gun owners clean their guns on a semi-regular basis. If you plan to take decent care of your gun, there's no reason to steer clear of the AR, IMHO.
I'm not sure I'd go along on the SKS as a choice. These were guns built back in the 1940s by the Russians and Chinese, packed in cosmoline and stashed in the back corner of Soviet and ChiCom warehouses for 50+ years. They're cheap enough, and I've owned my share of 'em, but an SKS is far from a quality machine. Certainly not a gun I'd stake my life on in a pinch.
Posted by: The All Seeing Eye at July 29, 2006 10:41 PM
Located in b.e.a.utiful West Tennessee, instructors are world-class.. and very serious.
Posted by: JeepThang at July 29, 2006 10:48 PM
But, as is so often the case with firearms... you let one into the house, and before long it starts sprouting friends.
A pump-action shotty and a sturdy, easy-to-use handgun should be immediate purchases. If you're interested in riflery, I would consider starting with a .22, such as a Ruger 10/22 rifle. Once you shoot thousands of dirt-cheap .22 rounds, you can move up to a centerfire. Even if you move on, the .22 will still provide endless cheap fun. I have a .22 boltie and I just love it.
Posted by: Scott Ganz at July 29, 2006 10:51 PM
Posted by: jesusland joe at July 29, 2006 11:20 PM
The .357 is great, but the truth is I'm small but with a very strong upper body and hands, and that shit bruised my hand.. A larger caliber than that might make the gun fly out of your wife's hand! A 9mm WILL stop an attacker, and both of you can use it. It's easy to use, clean, can hold plenty of ammo. You don't have to get an $800 one either; I had a Taurus that worked beautifully that was a hell of a lot cheaper than a Beretta or the other drool-worthy models. JJ rec'd Taurus too, and with good reason. Don't spend a ton of money on your first weapon--everyone's going to say "get a Kimber" because they're awesome and we all like to live vicariously. ;-) But seriously, don't get a cannon yet--your wife needs to be able to use it at least as well as you do,
Check the NRA site for NRA certified instructors, too. They're everywhere, even in Moonbatia, and if you don't know of a good instructor personally, the NRA is always reliable.
Posted by: Beth at July 30, 2006 01:22 AM
Vinnie, please delete the duplicates. GRRRRR.
[You're welcome, but stop calling me Shirley- Vinnie]
Posted by: Beth at July 30, 2006 01:25 AM
Learn to reload and stock up on the essentials...
Posted by: gatorgriz at July 30, 2006 02:17 AM
Posted by: USMC_shooter at July 30, 2006 03:11 AM
Posted by: Fred Fry at July 30, 2006 09:13 AM
A gun is an extension of an insecure man's penis.
Posted by: Darth Vag at July 30, 2006 09:45 AM
As for CCW, I recommend a Glock compact 30 9mm. Larger models, like the Para-Ordnance 1911, make excellent sidearms, but are difficult to conceal. The Glock compact 30 is unobstrusive and easy to conceal, fits well in my hand, and is extremely accurate and reliable. With one in the chamber and two full clips, I can fire 21 rounds in rapid succession.
Most of the DPS officers I know carry a Glock or a Sigzauer in .40 caliber. They tell me the .40 has more stopping power than the .45. HK also makes an excellent semi-automatic.
I also have a Ruger GP-100 double-action 357 magnum, which is a superior weapon for self-defense. It is heavier and a bit unwieldy, compared to the Glock, but it will not jam--always a problem with any semi-automatic--and will definitely kill or severely disable anyone shot with it. With a quick-loader, I can fire 12 deadly rounds easily.
Ideally, I would carry both, the Glock in a shoulder holster and the Ruger in a hip holster, along with an extra clip and quick-loader. That makes for 33 rounds, more than enough in most situations.
USMC_shooter is also correct that there is no substitute for experience and familiarity with your weapon of choice. I would not recommend anyone buy a firearm without attending a gun safety and training class. If your state has a concealed/carry license, definitely get one.
And finally, always remember the three rules of firearms.
1. Never draw your weapon--and never, ever put your finger on the trigger--unles you intend to shoot it.
2. Never shoot someone unless you intend to kill him.
3. If you shoot someone, kill him.
Posted by: GawainsGhost at July 30, 2006 09:54 AM
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 30, 2006 09:55 AM
I love this site. I once almost bought some bolo rounds for a shotgun. You can even get tracer rounds.
Posted by: Cmunk at July 30, 2006 10:00 AM
Sig Sauers are the new black!
The P229R in either 357 sig or .40 SW is to die for!
For those who want to play it safe the double action only P229R DAK is the way to go! It's sexy silhouette and double-strike capablity are something all the glocks wish they had.
For the fasion foward types, the polymer sig SP2022 is a must have item this fall.
Posted by: liberrocky at July 30, 2006 10:02 AM
I had to write it just for laughs, for the sheer absurdity of it.
Posted by: Darth Vag at July 30, 2006 10:53 AM
I also love my Ruger. A little heavier and a bit more cumbersome, it will never fail to shoot. And I feel sorry for anyone who makes me shoot him with it. Big hole in the face or chest.
That said, it is true that the Sig is an excellent weapon. So is the HK. You would not go wrong with either.
Incidentally, the absolute best assault rifle is the Springfield Armory M1-A Scout. It's expensive, but experienced combat veterans I've talked to all tell me that if they had to choose one weapon to take into battle, that would be it.
Posted by: GawainsGhost at July 30, 2006 10:59 AM
Firearms safety class is a must. If it is conducted by the police you get the advantage of the use of deadly force class. Safety at all times. Go to a range or join a gun club. Practice and, if a handgun, practice with both hands and practice timed fire. If you have a Kimber with a 7-round mag you have to practice to be able to fire 14 rounds in 10 seconds. Seven rounds, drop the mag, insert new mag, release the slide, seven more rounds and all the rounds into center mass (10 ring is great but the 9 ring will do).
Lastly, if you ever end up in a gunfight, then win it. If you shoot, shoot to kill. Always at least a double tap and if you have to move past them you don't leave any of them alive behind you. Dead terrorists make lousy witnesses.
the lowercase cranky
Posted by: Cranky at July 30, 2006 02:04 PM
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 30, 2006 05:09 PM
Personally, I find that a pair of DA-only five shot hammerless snub revolvers in plain, old .38 SPL to be the best of all possible worlds. They are small, relatively light, and you can have one in each coat pocket for balance, and whichever hand is closest can grab one (Learn to fire ambidextrously; especially if you ride a motorcycle).
Posted by: QC at July 30, 2006 06:06 PM
THE MAIN REASON: Buckshot is VERY unlikely to go through your neighbor's wall and hit your neighbor. Assault weapons like the AR-15, etc. will penetrate multiple standard residential construction walls. THIS IS NOT GOOD.
Secondarily, the wide spread pattern with buckshot from a shotgun gives you an excellent chance at hitting what you are aiming at when it's 2am and your adrenaline is in overdrive. (and again, if you miss- you're very unlikely to hurt your neighbor)
This advice was given by Col. Oliver North on his radio show several years ago.
Posted by: QC at July 30, 2006 06:15 PM
Posted by: Howie at July 30, 2006 07:31 PM
1) if you might want to carry, a snub-nosed revolver (Smith & Wesson or Taurus are the obvious choices) with a spurless hammer (less fun, but safer for concealed carry);
2) a larger-frame revolver with a 4-to-6-inch barrel. A .357 is fine, but .38 is all you really need. (Yes, I own a wonderful Ruger .357, but remember if Rusty plans to use .357 cartridges as his defensive load, that's one more thing he'll have to practice with at the range--and his wife will have to do it, too. Sometimes simpler is better, folks.)
Posted by: Attila Girl at July 30, 2006 08:24 PM
Posted by: Scott Ganz at July 30, 2006 08:47 PM
And you can forget the "you don't have to aim with a shotgun" fallacy. A standard 18" improved cylinder bore shotgun firing buckshot will have a pattern spread of roughly one inch for every yard of range. That means that inside a standard home, you're unlikely to be more than about 20 feet from an assailant, and you'll have about a 6-7 inch pattern (roughly the size of a spread hand). You still have to aim.
Yes, a long-gun is a bit more unwieldy inside a standard residential structure, but I dearly hope none of you would expect Rusty to go CQB'ing with that pistol grip shotgun... that's hard enough for a trained operator, let alone a newbie like Rusty. The reality of the matter is that you'd be well-advised to take up a defensive position, and ambush any intruder that comes your way. Building clearing is a team sport... always remember that. A single man trying to clear a building alone is a dead man.
Also, shotgun pellets are typically lead... they flatten out and lose energy quickly when they encounter an obstruction. They are extremely unlikely to overpenetrate and kill your neighbor across the street. This also goes for the AR15... the standard 5.56 NATO full-jacket round is a very lightweight bullet moving at a smokin' 3200fps. It practically comes apart when it hits anything solid, and is equally unlikely to overpenetrate. If you're very concerned about the issue, the latter caliber also comes in frangible varieties, which can be stopped by a single standard wall.
In fact, one of the more overpenetrative rounds you could probably find is the plain ole' full-jacket 9mm. It will go through more layers of sheetrock than you ever imagined.
Posted by: TheNewGuy at July 31, 2006 08:32 AM
First, buy and read this book:
It is cheap and a quick read. It will get you thinking about what happens after the lead flies and the smoke clears - things you should think about before you put a bead on someone.
As far as guns go, I will add my vote to the 12G pump action shotgun crowd. I own a Remington 870. It is sinfully reliable, easy to clean, and has never jammed, misfed, misfired, etc. Also owning a 12G adds versatility to your ammo selection. Are you in a dense population area? Use birdshot which is devastating at close range but won't require 3 houses to stop the projectile if you miss. Want to use buckshot? You unleash 8-9 lead balls (30 cal) each time you pull the trigger.
For carry, I have a S+W airlight 38. It is SUPER light and as accurate as it needs to be in close quarters (the only time you should be pulling a firearm for self defense). I own semi-auto's too, but a 5-shot 38 is great for pocket carry. I bought a used titanium model - looking back on it now, I would have bought an aluminum frame for about half the cost and added an ounce to the weight. Here's what I would get now for carry:
Lastly, whatever you get, I hope you'll never have to use it.
ps. Don't go super-tactical with your selections. God forbid you ever face a jury, it won't look good when they show off your pistol-grip high capacity assault rifle with laser targeting and night-sights.
Posted by: Phil at July 31, 2006 09:01 AM
I beg to differ. The best possible outcome is to do your civic duty and take out the criminal so he doesn't find an easier target ( your grandma ) down the street or worseyet come back at a later time catching you off-guard! Remember, the criminal mind will keep returning to an area that was unsuccessful for the challenge and the thrill of it. They need to " win " to keep their frail egos intact.
Posted by: Last gasp Larry at July 31, 2006 11:01 AM
Posted by: Last gasp Larry at July 31, 2006 11:03 AM
We will have to agree to disagree. Especially if you live in a "blue" state, the legal reprecussions of even a clean self-defense shot are horrific.
Legalities aside, watching someone die, even if they just tried to kill you, is not pleasant. I would never wish that circumstance on anybody. Granted, I will take waking up with the cold sweats vs. not waking up at all, but brandishing a weapon and having the perp run away is probably the best outcome for the individual, if not society at large.
Your mileage may vary.
Posted by: Phil at July 31, 2006 11:13 AM
I've since received training to prevent such an incident from ever occuring again, but I still carry a gun. I now have a CCL, have received professional training, but still know that avoiding a confrontation is the best of all possible outcomes.
Posted by: jesusland joe at July 31, 2006 12:09 PM
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 31, 2006 12:13 PM
Posted by: Last gasp Larry at July 31, 2006 03:39 PM
Posted by: Last gasp Larry at July 31, 2006 03:47 PM
Posted by: Last gasp Larry at July 31, 2006 08:03 PM
Posted by: jesusland joe at August 01, 2006 10:38 AM
Posted by: Last gasp Larry at August 01, 2006 11:34 AM
I could consider myself a martyr for the 2nd Amendment cause, but then who would raise my son?
If an intruder is in your house, even in a blue state, then the "Castle Doctrine" generally applies as far as any jury is concerned. The only exception might be if the enrty wound was in the perp's back and he received it while he was 1 step out your front door.
A B+E is one thing, being out on the street where you can potentially avoid shooting is another. In jesusland joe's case, I probably would have fired until the threat stopped. However this is very hard to say given that I was not there.
Check out www.thehighroad.org it is a gun-owners forum and generally have some good guidance on what is self defense and what isn't.
Posted by: phil at August 01, 2006 02:54 PM
Posted by: Howie at August 01, 2006 03:26 PM
Posted by: Last gasp Larry at August 02, 2006 04:06 AM
Having owned Taurus, Smith & Wesson, and Ruger, I would recommend the Ruger. It's the sturdiest and you get the most for your money. S&W can be a little over-priced, but they have the most varieties. I've had too much trouble with Taurus and had to send several back to the factory. Always go with stainless steel.
Posted by: adolfo velasquez at August 02, 2006 08:46 AM
Ruger SP101 with a 2 and 1/4" barrel or GP 100 with the 3" barrel are best buys. The SP101 is a 5 shot concealable, the SP101 is a slightly larger, but still borderline concealable, 6 shot.
If it's only for home use, the SP101 comes in 4" barrel as well.
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