He's Going To Buy A Gun, And He's Serious

This is an open-thread type post to solicit advice for Dr. Rusty Shackleford to aid him in his quest to defend himself and his family.

My two cents for Rusty is to get trained by a certified firearms instructor.

Update by Howie: How about this one?

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Update by Vinnie: Nah, I like this one better:

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Thanks to everyone leaving the excellent advice for Rusty. He is reading it, I can assure you.

Posted by: Vinnie at 06:52 PM

Comments

1 Rusty,
What is your experience with guns (handgun, rifle shotgun?) I'm asking you this question because, we have preconceived notion of firearms based from movies and cultural surroundings. I'm a firearms dealer out of Corpus Christi, TX. For home usage, I recommend a 20 gauge or 410 pump action shotgun, if your family doesn't have a lot of experience with firearms. If you want to discuss this subject in more detail, just email me.

Posted by: James at July 29, 2006 07:03 PM

2 Any one have a Koran I can use for target practice?

PS-That was a joke. Please don't kill me!

Posted by: Rusty at July 29, 2006 07:14 PM

3 Shotguns are good, but they are long guns and a home is by neccesity an enclosed environment. I'd go with a pistol myself, Glocks run about $700 but are worth it, Kimber's run $900 and are well worth it too. But a $400-500 .45 with that extra $400-500 spent on ammunition and at the range would be better still.

My advice? Pistol. Learn to range shoot and then--when you learn the basics--learn how to combat shoot. I'm sure Bluto would know some good training resources. The local PD may have someone that can point the way to teaching you some good stuff.

Try for a concealed permit too. (Hard to do with the shotgun, I'm afraid). Since your website was literally BANNED in the second most populous country in the world, it wouldn't be too hard to establish that you've pissed some people off, somemisunderstanderers of Islam that might--theoretically--like to kill you.

Posted by: Verc at July 29, 2006 07:19 PM

4 What I find disturbing about this is that Rusty doesn't already own a gun. I assumed he was armed and trained in the use of said firearm. Get on the stick, Rusty. Find a local (Jawaland) dealer/certified instructor and get some protection.

Posted by: Preston Taylor Holmes at July 29, 2006 07:20 PM

5 If your state allows, get a CCW permit, the classes alone are worth the effort, the education will be very valuable if needed. A certified firearms instructor would be the place to start, but owning a gun and knowing how to use it is two different matters. It takes practice to use a gun. You should be prepared to devote the time and effort to become proficient, otherwise it is going to be nothing more than an oddly shaped rock.

If you have little knowledge of firearms, a good starter gun would be a 38 revolver of good quality. Bear in mind that most problems occur at night, so tritium nite sights are a good idea. It's better to have a gun you can use than to have the latest trick on the block.

... You've got to be prepared to shoulder the responsibility required of gun ownership.

Posted by: bill at July 29, 2006 07:32 PM

6 So why the sudden change of heart Rusty? Did you wake up and realize that muslims are vicious, rabid vermin who want to kill you, rape your woman, and enslave your children? If so, then welcome to reality.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 29, 2006 07:54 PM

7 Beginner's Kit

Remington semi-automatic sawed-off 12-gauge.
Stock and barrel.
Easy to wield.
Pull out the governor so it holds seven shells with one chambered.
Alternate 00, slug, 00 etc.

Holstered 357 S&W Magnum.

Strapped Bowie knife.

Posted by: Agent Jones at July 29, 2006 07:58 PM

8 I agree about a .38 revolver, especially if the owner is a complete beginner with firearms. Semiautos like a Glock are popular with gun aficionados, but if you aren't a gun aficionado, they are dangerous to own because in stressful moments you would forget how to use it. A double-action revolver requires nothing more than pointing at the target and pulling the trigger. I would suggest a Ruger, Colt or Smith & Wesson double-action revolver in .38 Special, made of stainless steel. An old-fashioned cop's gun: sturdy, reliable and easy to use. Take it to a range and learn to use it, and stuff it with Glaser Safety Slugs for home use. Even new, these guns are much cheaper than a semiauto, and great used specimens can be found in any gun shop.

The main thing is to learn how to use it, and keep it ready where it can be used if necessary.

Good luck.

Posted by: Robert at July 29, 2006 08:03 PM

9 In defense of Rusty not already having a gun, how many academics own guns? It's not a gun culture. Also, when you have extra cash around, there's always a book to buy or a laptop. The last thing on the list is a gun.

Posted by: Mark James at July 29, 2006 08:39 PM

10 Blackwater, or Gunsite would be excellent places to start.

High-dollar to be sure, and I can only personally vouch for Blackwater's training (Gunsite I only know by reputation), but professional instruction is NEVER wasted money.

I'll say it another way: the purchase of the weapon is just the beginning... you should be spending far more on training than you ever spent on the firearm.

Remember, you are the weapon; will, mindset, ability to think/problem-solve under pressure, tactics... the gun is just the tool.

Posted by: TheNewGuy at July 29, 2006 08:55 PM

11 I'll go with the first post, though I think it's just as easy to learn with a 12ga as a 20. 18 or 20" Mossberg 500 with cylinder bore. Inexpensive, easy to learn, reasonably handy in a building. There's hardly anybody in North America who's unfamiliar with the sound of a pump gun being racked. After a while you can start playing with a .45, the only sidearm I'd consider to be a fight-stopper with just about any solid hit.

Posted by: FASTAC 6 at July 29, 2006 09:09 PM

12 I advise he think about it a whole bunch and get trained.

Locking gun cabinet Especially around kids.

Just the basics. Small to medium rifle cheap ammo 22-250 or 243. Shotgun, .410 pump is excellent if your state allows .410 slugs or 20 guage heavy shot. Smaller handgun to start out 32 or .380. things everyone is comfortable with and is cheap to shoot

It doesn't take a big gun to kill butthe more shots the better.It has to be one you feel like it fits you,comfortable with its size and weight.Big is cool until youhave to run with it or your wife is scared to shoot it. Or maybe it held 6 big ones when 30 little ones are better.

And remember its far more likelythat someone will get hurt accidentallyor in anger than you will have to use it.

I say that becuase I knew two guys who's wives, you know, shot them.

And my grandpa saysdon't ever fuck around with a gun. It's a tool and unless you really plan to have to maybe kill someone it's best to leave it alone or not show it at all ever. He also kept a sawed off double barrell shotgun with a hare triggerand doubleshotnext to the door. Touch it and your ass was on fire. But he worked morning tower and had four daughters. The instructions wereif someone were trying to get in we were to, "Point it at the door, turn off the saftey ,hold on and pull the little trigger in back"

Also get a barky dog. If you don't know they are there there will be no time to be ready. Also I like to keep a few bats and stuff here and there.Have a plan and know your area, running you know it better then they will. I have but one or maybe two. Possibly three.

After all that they can still, you know, get you.

Posted by: Howie at July 29, 2006 09:10 PM

13 The nice thing about an S&W 357 Magnum, Model 586 Detective Edition, is that it will fire a .38 round or a 357 magnum round.

Posted by: Agent Jones at July 29, 2006 09:16 PM

14 To Arms! To Arms! Rusty is pissed! All to Arms!

Okay so if we are all going to talk smack about our weapons prep, here I go.

SKS 7.62 semi auto easily reconfigured. Cost about $150 US at any gun show. Fires a man stopper of a round. Shoprt especially without the bayonet. And very affordable. Accurate out to around 300 yds. Comes with a cleaning kit.

Browning 9mm High Power semi auto pistol. Light slim, and very accurate. Smooth action, but not available in the US any longer. Will set you back $800+ US. But a better feeling firearm you may not find.

New Army model 1864 Replica Black powder revolver. .44 caliber round. If ever in a pinch I can make my own rounds, powder and still shoot from coal, salt peter, and sulpher. (Just Kidding) It is a show piece.

My dream gun is a Winchester model 186? lever action that fired a 44 round just like the old cowboys and cavalry fired.

Posted by: Cmunk at July 29, 2006 09:30 PM

15 Most commercial ranges will rent guns and provide instruction.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 29, 2006 09:39 PM

16 Stay away from AR-15 unless you are fond of cleaning. They gum up easy. Kalashnikov is a better choice. Besides it is the preferred weapon of your enemy. Makes finding spare parts easy. AK is available with a 30 rnd clip stock. Accurate out to about 300 yds.

Now the M-16 or AR-15 is accurate out beyond 500 yds. An expert marksman can go out even further.

If you are serious about a semi auto with stopping power and long range, the M-1 National Match is a nice choice. You can go 1000 yds and more with a scope. Plus practicing with a finely engineered piece like that is a rare pleasure. It is long, and quite heavy compared to just about every other semi auto out there. But the Marines owned the Pacific using it.

If you are looking for a bruiser of a hand gun, Desert Eagles come in a .44 magnum and a .50 Cal version. The 50 is not easy to shoot. Serious recoil even for a semi auto. Rounds are expensive, and very loud. If you don't hit what you are aiming at,the sound wave will knock the shit out of them.

Posted by: Cmunk at July 29, 2006 09:49 PM

17 So if you are aiming at your target, you want to focus on the clear tip of the front sight on the end of the barrel, through or between the blurry rear sight aperture (sp?) The target will be a fuzzy blob in front of the clearly visible tip of the front sight. Once the fuzzy target is lined up appropriately within the sight, apply an even squeeze to the trigger, being sure your finger tip is used to pull the trigger, and do not jerk it. The discharge should feel like an expected surprise. Exhale, inhale and exhale until the the target is centered again within your sights, and fire again.

Posted by: Cmunk at July 29, 2006 10:00 PM

18 You need to break things down into two areas:

1) Home Defense, and 2) Personal Defense (Conceiled carry).

There is NOTHING better for home defense than a pump action shotgun. Every perp on the planet knows the sound of a shell being jacked into the chamber, and the overwhelming majority of them will, 1) Piss their pants at the sound, and then, 2) Run like an olympian to get the hell out of your castle leaving only a puddle behind. The BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME is to scare off the intruder without having to drop the hammer on him.

For concieled carry, ALL SEMI-AUTO's SUCK! Why? Just shooting them spews evidence all over tarnation in the form of spent shell casings. That means a warning shot gives you completely away to any CSI types who can generally locate the scene, while finding a spent bullet in granma Jones' garden a half mile away is orders of magnitude harder than finding a needle in a haystack. Dig? I don't know why anybody would carry a semi-auto. It's retarded. Remember, the best possible outcome is if you simply SCARE THE PERP OUT OF THEN YEARS WORTH OF HIS LIFE: Actually shooting someone causes years worth of legal hassles, even if you are 100% dead to rights within the law.

Personally, I find that a pair of DA-only five shot hammerless snub revolvers in plain, old .38 SPL to be the best of all possible worlds. They are small, relatively light, and you can have one in each coat pocket for balance, and whichever hand is closest can grab one (Learn to fire ambidextrously; especially if you ride a motorcycle). Plus, .38 ammo is cheap and ubiquitous: Proficiency with a handgun requires CONSTANT PRACTICE, or you will get rusty (Hehe).

I'm not a pro, but I've been an NRA member since I was old enough to shoot 50' indoor in the Jr. NRA, and I have won many, MANY marksmanship awards. I've spent a lot of time with people who have thought all of this through, so it's not like these are all my ideas. Positive peer pressure, let's call it.

Cheers

Posted by: Hucbald at July 29, 2006 10:15 PM

19 Aha--Rusty's one o' them academic libertarians--loves the idea of a gun or a bong but never gets around to actually owning one.


I'll third the comments above about a .38 revolver from a reputable manufacturer. But if you buy a .357 magnum, you can shoot .38 ammunition in it just fine. (The bullets are actually the same diameter--.355 inch.) Those are all easy to use and learn and you can train Missus Jawa very easily as well. When things get all funny, if the gun is loaded you only need to remember to pull the trigger--no extra switches or safeties or gizmos.

Trouble with that is pretty soon you're going to want to buy another one...

I'd say go to a range or talk to a local gun nut and try out a few and see which kinds you like--barrel length, recoil, etc.

Posted by: See-Dubya at July 29, 2006 10:18 PM

20 Go for a Glock 26 (or .45 cal). They are light and very easy to clean there are only about six parts to have to mess around with when you clean them. Also the racking sound of a shotgun will send a person breaking into your house running real fast. Serious firepower AR-15 or SKS are both a good way to go. My dream gun would be an M-4 or the newer model of the M-14.

Posted by: bags75 at July 29, 2006 10:19 PM

21 I wouldn't sweat the semi-autos are no good for CCW comment. You are NOT going to engage in a self-defense shooting that you will keep a secret. If you are forced to fire or even brandish on the street, you WILL tell the police, and you will tell them before the bad guy or his surviving cohorts do. Surprisingly, perps will often sick the police on peope who defend themselves, twisting the story to make you the bad guy. You just have to be good enough with the law to know when and when not to bring steel into the fight. The best option in most street situations is to avoid them. Pride doesn't matter. Your gun is only to be used when someone is clearly about to harm you.

That being said, revolvers are great starter guns. The problem is that they are tougher to reload, and sometimes tougher to shoot. Go to a range that rents a wide variety of weapons, preferably with a handgun-proficient friend, and try everything. A GLOCK or Springfield XD is a little more complicated internally, but shooting them is as simple as a revolver. Point and click. Ultimately, the gun that you're comfortable operating will be the right one.

Caliber-wise, I'd try to stay at least with 9mm or .38 spl. And be sure to use expanding (jacketed hollowpoint) ammunition.

If you're going to carry a weapon or use it for defense of the home, you MUST have a quality illumination tool. Part of lawyer-proofing means that you must have gotten a good look at the perp so you KNEW FOR SURE what you were shooting at. This means you'll also have to learn how to use a handgun with a flashlight. It's a challenge, but not impossible, and you can practice at any range. I spend half of my range time shooting one-handed for this reason.

I recommend Surefire brand flashlights. If the light kicks out more than 65 lumens, it can disorient an attacker and ruin his nightvision, giving you the time you need to take a few steps to the side and fire or flee.

Posted by: Scott Ganz at July 29, 2006 10:31 PM

22 I bought a Springfield XD-9 subcompact for my wife, and she loves it. It has a loaded chamber indicator, a cocked gun indicator, ambidextrous magazine release, and an on-trigger safety. The small size belies the weight and controllability of it, and the grip fits her small hand, even with a fat ten round magazine. She can pop a lefturd or 'slamoturd at fifty yards. The reliability is absolute, it loves every sort of ammo, and it's just freakin' sweet at less than five hundred bucks. The only thing about it I don't like is that it ejects up and back, and drops the hot brass on your head and down your shirt, but this is hardly a deal-breaker. My next personal sidearm is going to be the CZ-97B in .45 ACP, but that's not a gun for beginners.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 29, 2006 10:31 PM

23 I'm going to go along with the pump action shotgun for home defense. The sound of chambering by itself generates a highly effective signal that there are less lethal targets to be had. It's also a simple, reliable mechanism.

I'll agree on the comments re: the AR-15/M-16 to a certain extent. If you never plan to clean your gun, the AR isn't your best option. An AR can behave poorly if it's not treated well. If you have no interest in maintenance, the AK is a better option. Then again, a lot of gun owners clean their guns on a semi-regular basis. If you plan to take decent care of your gun, there's no reason to steer clear of the AR, IMHO.

I'm not sure I'd go along on the SKS as a choice. These were guns built back in the 1940s by the Russians and Chinese, packed in cosmoline and stashed in the back corner of Soviet and ChiCom warehouses for 50+ years. They're cheap enough, and I've owned my share of 'em, but an SKS is far from a quality machine. Certainly not a gun I'd stake my life on in a pinch.

Posted by: The All Seeing Eye at July 29, 2006 10:41 PM

24 You need firearms instruction?

http://www.tacticalresponse.com/

Located in b.e.a.utiful West Tennessee, instructors are world-class.. and very serious.


Posted by: JeepThang at July 29, 2006 10:48 PM

25 While I think every man should have a quality centerfire semi-automatic rifle, this may be a bit overwhelming for Rusty's introduction to guns.

But, as is so often the case with firearms... you let one into the house, and before long it starts sprouting friends.

A pump-action shotty and a sturdy, easy-to-use handgun should be immediate purchases. If you're interested in riflery, I would consider starting with a .22, such as a Ruger 10/22 rifle. Once you shoot thousands of dirt-cheap .22 rounds, you can move up to a centerfire. Even if you move on, the .22 will still provide endless cheap fun. I have a .22 boltie and I just love it.

Posted by: Scott Ganz at July 29, 2006 10:51 PM

26 Hmm....gun ownership and selection. A subject that will bring out a myriad of experts and opinions, so let me interject mine. Rusty, a double-action revolver, SW, Colt, or Taurus,is a must for a beginner. The simplicity of operation allows for a beginner to be able to make a shot under stress that he may or may not be able to make by having to rack a slide on the semi-auto. I would suggest the .357 mag, which would also allow you to shoot the .38 special round for practice sessions, or perhaps for home defense as it does not overpenetrate and endanger the neighbors. If money is an object, I suggest either a used SW or a new Taurus. I have a brand new titanium/stainless steel Taurus that is as fine as a pistol gets, and it is very reasonable. If you would feel better owning a shotgun, then the best overall buy, quality and price, is the Remington 870 pump in either 12 or 20 gauge. Hard to beat. A novice does not need to use a rifle for home defense, as they all overpenetrate and place the neighbors in danger.

Posted by: jesusland joe at July 29, 2006 11:20 PM

27 Rusty, I assume your wife is going to be getting practice with the weapon too (she definitely should!). I'll say this: men love shotguns, but if you are only going to buy one weapon, DO NOT get something she can't handle. A shotgun is a huge pain in the ass for a lot of women (I used to have two in the house when I was married, and one was so damn big I never even bothered picking it up). I say this as a veteran, and I shot expert in the M16 and the 9mm. Forget the shotgun. Sure, it'll scare an intruder or attacker, but you have to be able to fire the weapon first, and preferably put the bastard down. If you just want to scare, get a German Shepherd. They're great dogs, too. ;-)
The .357 is great, but the truth is I'm small but with a very strong upper body and hands, and that shit bruised my hand.. A larger caliber than that might make the gun fly out of your wife's hand! A 9mm WILL stop an attacker, and both of you can use it. It's easy to use, clean, can hold plenty of ammo. You don't have to get an $800 one either; I had a Taurus that worked beautifully that was a hell of a lot cheaper than a Beretta or the other drool-worthy models. JJ rec'd Taurus too, and with good reason. Don't spend a ton of money on your first weapon--everyone's going to say "get a Kimber" because they're awesome and we all like to live vicariously. ;-) But seriously, don't get a cannon yet--your wife needs to be able to use it at least as well as you do,
Check the NRA site for NRA certified instructors, too. They're everywhere, even in Moonbatia, and if you don't know of a good instructor personally, the NRA is always reliable.

Posted by: Beth at July 30, 2006 01:22 AM

28 %$#@!
Vinnie, please delete the duplicates. GRRRRR.
Thanks, d00d.

[You're welcome, but stop calling me Shirley- Vinnie]

Posted by: Beth at July 30, 2006 01:25 AM

29 Gee, I thought everyone had guns... It's how you protect yourself, and put food on the table. I've owned at least 20 or so for at least 25 years now...

Learn to reload and stock up on the essentials...

Posted by: gatorgriz at July 30, 2006 02:17 AM

30 Rusty I'd just like to add my two cents. For the typical home defense scenario I recommend the 12 gauge pump ( I'm partial to the Mossberg 500 ) with #1 buckshot. This has superb stopping power along with a lower risk of accidental penetration. Do NOT use slugs for home defense! As far a CCW weapons go I would strongly recommend you invest some time at a local shooting range and determine for yourself which weapon you deem most suited to carrying. I personally carry a Para-Ordnance P14 .45ACP (which is large for a CCW). The model 1911 is somewhat complicated and requires a little effort to maintain so while I am not partial to Glocks I have to admit that they make a reliable weapon that works with minimal maintenance. You might consider going that route. I would suggest either a .40 or .45 with Hydra Shock rounds. They have low penetration an high stopping power, perfect for helping bad guys reconsider their life choices. Whatever you go with remember that there is absolutely no substitute for experience and familiarity with your weapon.

Posted by: USMC_shooter at July 30, 2006 03:11 AM

31 I have been meaning to get a shotgun since I moved from DC. Looks like I have some starter info in which brand. Great!

Posted by: Fred Fry at July 30, 2006 09:13 AM

32 Rusty, just remember what someone said on the Phil Donahue show once in the '80's:

A gun is an extension of an insecure man's penis.

Posted by: Darth Vag at July 30, 2006 09:45 AM

33 I agree with USMC_shooter, a Mossberg 500 12-guage pump shotgun is the best weapon for home defense. But I would recommend loading the first shell with rock salt. That way if the invader is some drunk friend or neighbor accidentally trying to break into your house, you won't kill him. You will however make damn sure he never makes that mistake again. If the invader is a criminal, he will definitely suffer before you kill him.

As for CCW, I recommend a Glock compact 30 9mm. Larger models, like the Para-Ordnance 1911, make excellent sidearms, but are difficult to conceal. The Glock compact 30 is unobstrusive and easy to conceal, fits well in my hand, and is extremely accurate and reliable. With one in the chamber and two full clips, I can fire 21 rounds in rapid succession.

Most of the DPS officers I know carry a Glock or a Sigzauer in .40 caliber. They tell me the .40 has more stopping power than the .45. HK also makes an excellent semi-automatic.

I also have a Ruger GP-100 double-action 357 magnum, which is a superior weapon for self-defense. It is heavier and a bit unwieldy, compared to the Glock, but it will not jam--always a problem with any semi-automatic--and will definitely kill or severely disable anyone shot with it. With a quick-loader, I can fire 12 deadly rounds easily.

Ideally, I would carry both, the Glock in a shoulder holster and the Ruger in a hip holster, along with an extra clip and quick-loader. That makes for 33 rounds, more than enough in most situations.

USMC_shooter is also correct that there is no substitute for experience and familiarity with your weapon of choice. I would not recommend anyone buy a firearm without attending a gun safety and training class. If your state has a concealed/carry license, definitely get one.

And finally, always remember the three rules of firearms.

1. Never draw your weapon--and never, ever put your finger on the trigger--unles you intend to shoot it.

2. Never shoot someone unless you intend to kill him.

3. If you shoot someone, kill him.

Posted by: GawainsGhost at July 30, 2006 09:54 AM

34 So Darth, when you see a man with a gun, does that make your mouth water?

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 30, 2006 09:55 AM

35 If you have a need for supplies and/weapons, check out gunbroker.com. You can buy just about any ammo, suplies and wepons in an ebay auction type of environment. Especially for the ammo. Be sure to determine if the ammo is new or reload. If you like reloads, besure the catridges are brass. Hungarian 7.62 rounds are a brass alloy or steel, and cannot be reused safely.

I love this site. I once almost bought some bolo rounds for a shotgun. You can even get tracer rounds.

Posted by: Cmunk at July 30, 2006 10:00 AM

36 What is with these glock people?

Sig Sauers are the new black!

The P229R in either 357 sig or .40 SW is to die for!
For those who want to play it safe the double action only P229R DAK is the way to go! It's sexy silhouette and double-strike capablity are something all the glocks wish they had.
For the fasion foward types, the polymer sig SP2022 is a must have item this fall.

Posted by: liberrocky at July 30, 2006 10:02 AM

37 IM:

I had to write it just for laughs, for the sheer absurdity of it.

Posted by: Darth Vag at July 30, 2006 10:53 AM

38 I love my Glock. Lightweight, compact, easy to handle, dependable, and very accurate. I could accidentally drop it into a mud puddle, pull it out and it would not fail to shoot. Now, that's my idea of a gun.

I also love my Ruger. A little heavier and a bit more cumbersome, it will never fail to shoot. And I feel sorry for anyone who makes me shoot him with it. Big hole in the face or chest.

That said, it is true that the Sig is an excellent weapon. So is the HK. You would not go wrong with either.

Incidentally, the absolute best assault rifle is the Springfield Armory M1-A Scout. It's expensive, but experienced combat veterans I've talked to all tell me that if they had to choose one weapon to take into battle, that would be it.

Posted by: GawainsGhost at July 30, 2006 10:59 AM

39 My opinion: a full-size shotgun barrel is difficult to put into a room to check the room from a narrow hallway. If you decide to get one then try the Remington 870 pump, 12 gauge. Mossberg has a great reputation too. If you're getting if for home defense get the shortest barrel you can. Handguns: I own two of them, a H&K USP Compact 9 mm just back from the factory for a checkup and it fired 2 inch groups at 10 yards. Cop friends say there is no stopping power with a 9mm. Second pistol is a Kimber Custom II .45 ACP. Big honking piece of steel and very reliable. Two hundred thirty grains of stopping power vice the 115 grain 9mm.

Firearms safety class is a must. If it is conducted by the police you get the advantage of the use of deadly force class. Safety at all times. Go to a range or join a gun club. Practice and, if a handgun, practice with both hands and practice timed fire. If you have a Kimber with a 7-round mag you have to practice to be able to fire 14 rounds in 10 seconds. Seven rounds, drop the mag, insert new mag, release the slide, seven more rounds and all the rounds into center mass (10 ring is great but the 9 ring will do).

Lastly, if you ever end up in a gunfight, then win it. If you shoot, shoot to kill. Always at least a double tap and if you have to move past them you don't leave any of them alive behind you. Dead terrorists make lousy witnesses.

Signed,

the lowercase cranky

Posted by: Cranky at July 30, 2006 02:04 PM

40 I figured that, but I couldn't resist. A better quote to use is from Freud: A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 30, 2006 05:09 PM

41 Didn't Scott Ganz and Huckbold run a horror comic shop in the Lost Boys?

Personally, I find that a pair of DA-only five shot hammerless snub revolvers in plain, old .38 SPL to be the best of all possible worlds. They are small, relatively light, and you can have one in each coat pocket for balance, and whichever hand is closest can grab one (Learn to fire ambidextrously; especially if you ride a motorcycle).

LOL!

Posted by: QC at July 30, 2006 06:06 PM

42 OH, and for sure go with the shotgun they're recommending to you. The pistol grip shorty kind like the Mossberg.

THE MAIN REASON: Buckshot is VERY unlikely to go through your neighbor's wall and hit your neighbor. Assault weapons like the AR-15, etc. will penetrate multiple standard residential construction walls. THIS IS NOT GOOD.

Secondarily, the wide spread pattern with buckshot from a shotgun gives you an excellent chance at hitting what you are aiming at when it's 2am and your adrenaline is in overdrive. (and again, if you miss- you're very unlikely to hurt your neighbor)

This advice was given by Col. Oliver North on his radio show several years ago.

Posted by: QC at July 30, 2006 06:15 PM

43 Vinnie sure has differend take on concealed carry. Rather then yoy carrying and conclealing your gun his carrys and conceals you

Posted by: Howie at July 30, 2006 07:31 PM

44 Step back. I love my Glock as much as the next girl, but Rusty is a novice, so there are really only two candidates:

1) if you might want to carry, a snub-nosed revolver (Smith & Wesson or Taurus are the obvious choices) with a spurless hammer (less fun, but safer for concealed carry);

2) a larger-frame revolver with a 4-to-6-inch barrel. A .357 is fine, but .38 is all you really need. (Yes, I own a wonderful Ruger .357, but remember if Rusty plans to use .357 cartridges as his defensive load, that's one more thing he'll have to practice with at the range--and his wife will have to do it, too. Sometimes simpler is better, folks.)

Posted by: Attila Girl at July 30, 2006 08:24 PM

45 About the Mossberg shorty with the pistol grip... does it have a proper buttstock. A beginner should NOT get a shotgun without a buttstock. I'm not a beginner, and I wouldn't even consider one. I like my wrists unbroken, thanks.

Posted by: Scott Ganz at July 30, 2006 08:47 PM

46 Pistol grip shotguns are a good deal harder to shoot well than a full stock with a pistol grip... why on earth are some of you for recommending that to a neophyte like Rusty? Do you not like him or something?

And you can forget the "you don't have to aim with a shotgun" fallacy. A standard 18" improved cylinder bore shotgun firing buckshot will have a pattern spread of roughly one inch for every yard of range. That means that inside a standard home, you're unlikely to be more than about 20 feet from an assailant, and you'll have about a 6-7 inch pattern (roughly the size of a spread hand). You still have to aim.

Yes, a long-gun is a bit more unwieldy inside a standard residential structure, but I dearly hope none of you would expect Rusty to go CQB'ing with that pistol grip shotgun... that's hard enough for a trained operator, let alone a newbie like Rusty. The reality of the matter is that you'd be well-advised to take up a defensive position, and ambush any intruder that comes your way. Building clearing is a team sport... always remember that. A single man trying to clear a building alone is a dead man.

Also, shotgun pellets are typically lead... they flatten out and lose energy quickly when they encounter an obstruction. They are extremely unlikely to overpenetrate and kill your neighbor across the street. This also goes for the AR15... the standard 5.56 NATO full-jacket round is a very lightweight bullet moving at a smokin' 3200fps. It practically comes apart when it hits anything solid, and is equally unlikely to overpenetrate. If you're very concerned about the issue, the latter caliber also comes in frangible varieties, which can be stopped by a single standard wall.

In fact, one of the more overpenetrative rounds you could probably find is the plain ole' full-jacket 9mm. It will go through more layers of sheetrock than you ever imagined.

Posted by: TheNewGuy at July 31, 2006 08:32 AM

47 Welcome to the world of gun ownership! I'll throw in my 2 cents as well - and best of luck to you! These are only based on what I own and my experiences.

First, buy and read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0936279001/sr=1-1/qid=1154352360/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3693611-9877560?ie=UTF8&s=books

It is cheap and a quick read. It will get you thinking about what happens after the lead flies and the smoke clears - things you should think about before you put a bead on someone.

As far as guns go, I will add my vote to the 12G pump action shotgun crowd. I own a Remington 870. It is sinfully reliable, easy to clean, and has never jammed, misfed, misfired, etc. Also owning a 12G adds versatility to your ammo selection. Are you in a dense population area? Use birdshot which is devastating at close range but won't require 3 houses to stop the projectile if you miss. Want to use buckshot? You unleash 8-9 lead balls (30 cal) each time you pull the trigger.

For carry, I have a S+W airlight 38. It is SUPER light and as accurate as it needs to be in close quarters (the only time you should be pulling a firearm for self defense). I own semi-auto's too, but a 5-shot 38 is great for pocket carry. I bought a used titanium model - looking back on it now, I would have bought an aluminum frame for about half the cost and added an ounce to the weight. Here's what I would get now for carry:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=14764&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

Lastly, whatever you get, I hope you'll never have to use it.


ps. Don't go super-tactical with your selections. God forbid you ever face a jury, it won't look good when they show off your pistol-grip high capacity assault rifle with laser targeting and night-sights.

Posted by: Phil at July 31, 2006 09:01 AM

48 " The BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME is to scare off the intruder without having to drop the hammer on him. "

I beg to differ. The best possible outcome is to do your civic duty and take out the criminal so he doesn't find an easier target ( your grandma ) down the street or worseyet come back at a later time catching you off-guard! Remember, the criminal mind will keep returning to an area that was unsuccessful for the challenge and the thrill of it. They need to " win " to keep their frail egos intact.

Posted by: Last gasp Larry at July 31, 2006 11:01 AM

49 Regretting his original firearms inquiry, the good Dr. reels at the information overload as he contemplates a much needed trip to Disneyland ......

Posted by: Last gasp Larry at July 31, 2006 11:03 AM

50 "I beg to differ. The best possible outcome is to do your civic duty and take out the criminal so he..."

We will have to agree to disagree. Especially if you live in a "blue" state, the legal reprecussions of even a clean self-defense shot are horrific.

Legalities aside, watching someone die, even if they just tried to kill you, is not pleasant. I would never wish that circumstance on anybody. Granted, I will take waking up with the cold sweats vs. not waking up at all, but brandishing a weapon and having the perp run away is probably the best outcome for the individual, if not society at large.

Your mileage may vary.

Posted by: Phil at July 31, 2006 11:13 AM

51 I have to go with Phil on this one. Even though this happened several years ago, this incident is still fresh in my mind. I was sitting in my vehicle reading a magazine outside a small post office late on a Saturday afternoon when I was attacked by an individual with a knife. I managed to get my door locked, but my window was still down and the attacker was attempting to get my door unlocked when my right hand came out from under the seat with a Taurus PT-98. Needless to say, he looked at me for a second, and decided to haul ass. I had a chance to shoot this guy full in the face, but I refrained. I am glad I did, because I can only imagine the legal problems I would have had. In this case, the fact that I had a firearm sent this attacker packing. I'm glad I didn't have to use it.

I've since received training to prevent such an incident from ever occuring again, but I still carry a gun. I now have a CCL, have received professional training, but still know that avoiding a confrontation is the best of all possible outcomes.

Posted by: jesusland joe at July 31, 2006 12:09 PM

52 Phil, the best thing is not to live in a blue state. Screw the lefturds; they made the bed, let them sleep in it.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 31, 2006 12:13 PM

53 Which pleases your consciense better? Letting your personalfilthy robber/hijacker/rapist/killer go unharmed to find a more willing victim ( your grandma/wife/daughter/toddler ) or doing your civic duty as an American to protect life and property by taking the scum out? If there are liberal laws that discourage this then just consider yourself a martyr for a good cause. The Muslimes are good for that, should we be any less?

Posted by: Last gasp Larry at July 31, 2006 03:39 PM

54 I can think of nothing more unpleasant than watching and hearing the sucking sound from the hole in someone's chest as they gasp their rattling last breaths. Except maybe discovering your family raped, beaten and murderedupon your return home ...

Posted by: Last gasp Larry at July 31, 2006 03:47 PM

55 Sorry! I meant to say my family raped, beaten and murdered upon my return home! apology/active threatguard/enabled

Posted by: Last gasp Larry at July 31, 2006 08:03 PM

56 Larry, you've watched Spiderman too many times. j/k

Posted by: jesusland joe at August 01, 2006 10:38 AM

57 Or was it Batman?

Posted by: Last gasp Larry at August 01, 2006 11:34 AM

58 Yo Larry,

I could consider myself a martyr for the 2nd Amendment cause, but then who would raise my son?

If an intruder is in your house, even in a blue state, then the "Castle Doctrine" generally applies as far as any jury is concerned. The only exception might be if the enrty wound was in the perp's back and he received it while he was 1 step out your front door.

A B+E is one thing, being out on the street where you can potentially avoid shooting is another. In jesusland joe's case, I probably would have fired until the threat stopped. However this is very hard to say given that I was not there.

Check out www.thehighroad.org it is a gun-owners forum and generally have some good guidance on what is self defense and what isn't.

Posted by: phil at August 01, 2006 02:54 PM

59 Happiness is a warm, yes it is, Guuuuahunnn, Bang Bang shoot shoot.

Posted by: Howie at August 01, 2006 03:26 PM

60 What's good for the cops is good for me! Difficult to judge the circumstance before it comes along. In the heat of the moment I would probably err on the side of caution and do what cops do, shoot first and ask questions later! :)

Posted by: Last gasp Larry at August 02, 2006 04:06 AM

61 I agree with all of the .357/.38 folks. I own several snubnosed .357's - they are small enough for concealed carry, strong enough for home defense. Loaded with .38 or .38 +p (plus power), they are a good shootable load for women.

Having owned Taurus, Smith & Wesson, and Ruger, I would recommend the Ruger. It's the sturdiest and you get the most for your money. S&W can be a little over-priced, but they have the most varieties. I've had too much trouble with Taurus and had to send several back to the factory. Always go with stainless steel.

Posted by: adolfo velasquez at August 02, 2006 08:46 AM

62 I should've included links.

Ruger SP101 with a 2 and 1/4" barrel or GP 100 with the 3" barrel are best buys. The SP101 is a 5 shot concealable, the SP101 is a slightly larger, but still borderline concealable, 6 shot.

If it's only for home use, the SP101 comes in 4" barrel as well.

http://tinyurl.com/lya76
http://tinyurl.com/jg85t

Posted by: adolfo velasquez at August 02, 2006 08:57 AM

63 GP100 is the 3 or 4 inch barrel 6 shot. Sorry for the triple post.

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