More Soldiers Accused of Crimes in Iraq: MSM Propagating Blood Libel

UPDATE: One arrested. I still don't want to believe it.

More U.S. soldiers accused of mass murder in Iraq. It's time for General Casey to go. Not because of the alleged mass murder, but because it looks like the U.S. is taking these types of allegations far too seriously and doing so publicly.

It's bad enough that the mainstream press has begun to buy into the lies and slander levied at our troops, but for the U.S. military to take them seriously is a strategy for defeat. Every time a civilian dies, Islamists call it murder. Every time.

Many of you may not be aware of this, but al Jazeera has been carrying these types of stories since the day the U.S. toppled the Saddam Hussein regime. Long time readers may remember the blood libels levied by Giulana Sgrena against the U.S. in our Fallujah campaign.

There is a reason our enemies fight us. They fight us because they think we are the bad guys. These types of stories only reinforce that viewpoint.

There is a good argument to be made that by investigating these types of allegations the U.S. is shown to be the "good guys". All crimes ought to be investigated and prosecuted. Not because this is a good public relations strategy--it isn't--but because it is the right thing to do.

However, since every time a civilian is killed an accusation is levelled, how can the military possibly hope to sustain a policy of investigation in an urban military operation zone? It's simply impossible.

The specifics of this particular case, at least as reported by the AP, are too fantastic to take seriously, even if a soldier has allegedly confessed to being part of some of it.

It is quite likely that women in Iraq have been raped by U.S. soldiers. It's just a matter of statistical probabilities. For every X number of men, there are Y number of perverts and criminals. Even in the military. So, when hundreds of thousands of men are rotated into a nearly lawless situation, it is only a matter of time and opportunity that misdeeds will occur.

But to take seriously the notion that FIVE soldiers gang-raped a girl, murdered her, burned her body, and then murdered her family to cover up the crime is simply beyond the pale. It would make a good movie script, but it's just too far out there to even begin to take seriously.

And if the accusation is not that this is what happened, then the AP has done an excellent job of making their story sound as if that is what happened--which is a crime in itself.

To even begin to think something like this could occur is to buy into the Islamist stereotype of the barbaric U.S. military. It is to think the very worst about our professional and citizen-soldiers.

A soldier might murder, a soldier might rape, but not five. Five soldiers might accidentally kill a family and then cover up the evidence, but not murder them.

If the post-Abu Ghraib / post-Haditha strategy is to publicly investigate all accusations in an effort to win over world & local opinion, then those orchestrating this strategy are far more naive then I ever imagined. There is nothing we can do that will ever please our Islamist and Leftist enemies.

Public investigations can only demoralize the American people because it lends the authority of the U.S. military to our enemies who make the accusations. The American people are simply unaware that these types of accusations--and worse--are levied on a near daily basis. It's part of our enemy's strategy. When they see the news that soldiers have been accused of crimes and that the military is investigating, the only conclusion that can come from it is that there must be some merit to those accusations.

If crimes have been committed investigate them and prosecute those responsible. But since the public's information about these investigations are mediated through a hostile press, then do the investigations in private. If no charges are filed, then our soldiers ought not be subjected to media criticisms over accusations.

In war civilians die. If you cannot accept that, then you shouldn't go to war. You cannot ask our military to defeat the enemy, but only on condition that civilians are not killed. Tying one arm of our soldiers behind their backs on the battlefield with the cords of an ill conceived public-relations campaign is both immoral and a strategy for certain defeat.

Did our entire military learn nothing from Vietnam, or just the ones in charge?

UPDATE: Not only does the accusation seem like it's from a Hollywood treatment, Ace has seen the movie. Allah deconstructs the MSM reaction here.

AP, with thanks to George:

Five U.S. Army soldiers are being investigated for allegedly raping a young woman, then killing her and three members of her family in Iraq, a U.S. military official said Friday.

The soldiers also allegedly burned the body of the woman they are accused of assaulting in the March incident, the official told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case.

The U.S. command issued a sparse statement, saying Maj. Gen. James D. Thurman, commander of coalition troops in Baghdad, had ordered a criminal investigation into the alleged killing of a family of four in Mahmoudiyah, south of Baghdad. The statement had no other details.

"The entire investigation will encompass everything that could have happened that evening. We're not releasing any specifics of an ongoing investigation," military spokesman Maj. Todd Breasseale said of the Mahmoudiyah allegations.

"There is no indication what led soldiers to this home. The investigation just cracked open. We're just beginning to dig into the details."

However, a U.S. official close to the investigation said at least one of the soldiers, all assigned to the 502nd Infantry Regiment, has admitted his role and been arrested. ...

One of the accused soldiers already has been discharged and is believed to be in the United States, two U.S. officials said on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing. The others have had their weapons taken away and are confined to Forward Operating Base Mahmoudiyah.

Posted by: Rusty at 12:38 PM

Comments

1 There can be no crimes in war. Even if these allegations are true these soldiers should get a heroes welcome on returning home. Give these filthy subhuman arabs what they damn well deserve.

God Bless America

Posted by: True American at June 30, 2006 12:56 PM

2 Rusty--I've seldom seen you post something so bizarre. Simply because you cannot imagine it, we shouldn't investigate it? Even if someone confessed it? Suppose the evidence supports his claims? Still don't believe it?

Many many things happen in war that are unimaginable. By your standards, we should not have investigated My Lai, which was a much worse atrocity than this, involving many more than five men. Are you contending that that didn't happen? Or the Toledo Blade's even more damning revelations?

I don't know what happened. This may all be a lie. This may be an American soldier with a screw loose, a vendetta against his fellow officers. Or it may be true. But in any case, we must investigate it. To do otherwise is to be less than Americans.

Posted by: jd at June 30, 2006 01:03 PM

3 Rape is still rape, and murder is still murder, regardless of the context.

Posted by: Rusty at June 30, 2006 01:03 PM

4 Note the AP trying to connect PFCs Machaca and Tucker to the alleged crime in the article.

Posted by: richj at June 30, 2006 01:04 PM

5 JD,

I said, and I quote: "If crimes have been committed investigate them and prosecute those responsible. But since the public's information about these investigations are mediated through a hostile press, then do the investigations in private. If no charges are filed, then our soldiers ought not be subjected to media criticisms over accusations."

I love to quote me.

Posted by: Rusty at June 30, 2006 01:11 PM

6 Let's see if I follow your logic. You say, in the middle, that it is inconceivable that five soldiers would murder and coverup. Possibly one would murder, or five would kill and coverup, but not both. Probable that ONE would rape, but not five. So, you say that this cannot "be taken seriously." "To even begin to think" that this occurred is to buy into Islamic stereotypes.

And then you say, IF a crime has occurred, we should investigate (privately).

Uh...ok. We decide in advance that nothing like this could possibly happen. Then, we use this standard--if we know that a crime occurred, investigate it. If we don't, don't.

I thought that we should investigate any credible (emphasis on that, since our opponents do frequently make false claims) allegations. How the hell are we to know if a crime occurred without doing an investigation?

That's what I meant by bizarre, Rusty. It doesn't make sense. They must be innocent. If they aren't, go ahead and do an investigation to find out if they are guilty....

Uh...

Posted by: jd at June 30, 2006 01:43 PM

7 Let's see if I follow your logic. You say, in the middle, that it is inconceivable that five soldiers would murder and coverup. Possibly one would murder, or five would kill and coverup, but not both. Probable that ONE would rape, but not five. So, you say that this cannot "be taken seriously." "To even begin to think" that this occurred is to buy into Islamic stereotypes.

And then you say, IF a crime has occurred, we should investigate (privately).

Uh...ok. We decide in advance that nothing like this could possibly happen. Then, we use this standard--if we know that a crime occurred, investigate it. If we don't, don't.

I thought that we should investigate any credible (emphasis on that, since our opponents do frequently make false claims) allegations. How the hell are we to know if a crime occurred without doing an investigation?

That's what I meant by bizarre, Rusty. It doesn't make sense. They must be innocent. If they aren't, go ahead and do an investigation to find out if they are guilty....

Uh...

Posted by: jd at June 30, 2006 01:44 PM

8 It amazes me how retarded the left is!
Firstly, if this happened it will be at least a hundred troops that were complicit - OK maybe a couple platoons. What would happen to five guys who walked away from a patrol or a raid to perpretrate a rape? That's right. The Moojis would have had all five like they had Menchaca and Tucker.
Neither could they wander off the FOB for the same reason.
Their entire company is guilty or they are innocent.

Posted by: Paul in Iowa at June 30, 2006 02:16 PM

9 Paul--I surely hope the story is as easily discredited as you say. But then why did the military begin this investigation? The LEFT didn't start this. The MEDIA didn't start this. This didn't even come from Islamicists. This was announced today by our military.

If it is obviously wrong as you purport, then wouldn't the brass not take it seriously? This isn't like Haditha, where something leaked and started an investigation, right?

Posted by: jd at June 30, 2006 02:38 PM

10 jd, how did you come to have such a vicious hatred for our military?

Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at June 30, 2006 03:01 PM

11 I think you all are still missing the big picture. Soldiers and Iraqis are expendable.
You all are reminding me of the Terri Schiavo crowd...it is "Pre 911" thinking. The grand plan does not take into account the individual. We need to understand the greater good.

Posted by: jack at June 30, 2006 03:08 PM

12 Hey, Capitalist Infidel...what have I said that shows a hatred of the military? My view of Iraq is that the military has done a magnificent job, it is the pathetic leadership of Bush and Rummy and Cheney that has been a catastrophic failure. I honor the service and sacrifice of the military. My father was an air force colonel, and his father was career army, ending as a full colonel. My other grandfather also served, although not as an officer, just as a draftee.

Two men went to their superiors and reported this incident. Does it dishonor soldiers to automatically believe these men are lying? These are tough issues.

Posted by: jd at June 30, 2006 03:17 PM

13 JD,

I read about one man. Also, the story is written in such a way as to suggest 5 guys raped, murdered, then covered up the crime.

You really believe that? If you do, then you don't honor the soldiers as much as you think you do.

If you honored the soldiers, you would presume that they are innocent. Being neutral doesn't cut it.

Many criticisms of Bush & co are valid. This piece is also a criticism of the Bush Administration (or the military commanders) who have botched it again. But, it seems, the valid criticisms are not that we are being too nasty in Iraq, but that we aren't being nasty enough. If we were to do this war right, there would have been a lot more civilian casualties. Not from firefights, but from saturation bombings.

Posted by: Rusty at June 30, 2006 03:31 PM

14 As you say in opening this post, Rusty, these types of allegations have been made against our troops from the beginning. I guess it was still too close to 9/11, the media still feared the righteous anger of the American public, and all the solemn promises that the left would never spit on our troops again were too fresh in their minds, to report on these before.

Besides, there were enough other "controversies" to keep the media occupied and give the anti-war left some hope of destroying Bush's plans in Iraq. But as the grim specter of total victory draws ever nearer, it's the troops turn to get thrown under the bus. The media always had an ace up their sleeve, I guess. The bilious Truth Brigade just needed the right time to play the card.

Disgusting.

I hope we can wrap up Iraq quickly. Because like cornered rats, the left is only going to get worse from here.

Until they're spitting on returning soldiers once more. Never again, indeed.

Posted by: a4g at June 30, 2006 04:00 PM

15 Actually, a4g, there's a whole book about how the spitting on returning vets story is a total myth. It's called "The Spitting Image." It traces how the author explored such claims and not a single verifiable incident could be emerged. No witnesses. No police reports. No media accounts. NOTHING. The stories started to appear about 1991...and since have become solidified into fact. But it is an urban myth.

As for the two soldiers--that's in the yahoo news account. I've read one, I've read two.

As for my neutrality meaning I don't honor the troops. I honor the troops by WANTING to not believe it. But I dishonor the truth by letting that affect my judgment. I admit this has limits--I'll let my feeling about my brother's guilt affect my judgment...but My Lai taught us that we cannot assume that American soldiers are not capable of great atrocities. If we didn't know that already from the occupation of the Phillipines. That doesn't mean that I honor the service of my father and grandfathers any less. It means that I honor the truth more.
If we had turned Iraq into a parking lot, Rusty, do you think we would have won the war on terror? I don't. I think that would be the most inhumane, and also criminally stupid, thing we could do. We would confirm, once and for all, in the minds of Muslims and Christians everywhere, that we are a killer nation.

Turning Chechnya into a parking lot is not working for the Russians. Turning Kabul into one didn't work for them in the 1980s. Did you think they were similarly "too kind"?

Seriously, you should read the Pape account of where suicide bombers come from. It would be eye opening.

Posted by: jd at June 30, 2006 04:16 PM

16 Please, Rusty, think through this saturation bombing advocacy. Saturation bombing would mean frying alive many infants and toddlers. It would mean killing many innocent Sunnis, Shi'ites, Christians, Kurds...people who would have been on our side in many cases.

I understand the rage that would make someone advocate such inhuman acts. But you seem to smart to not understand that it would simply backfire. In addition, it would be a war crime.

Posted by: jd at June 30, 2006 04:19 PM

17 Sorry, the two soldiers account came not from Yahoo but from the WPost:
For months, based on soldiers' reports, the unit had attributed the deaths to insurgents, until two other soldiers came forward June 23 and said U.S. troops were responsible, the military official said. Three of the soldiers are still in Iraq and one has been discharged for reasons unrelated to the case, he said. None are in confinement.

Posted by: jd at June 30, 2006 04:22 PM

18 jd - No one cares about your defeatist rants - go surrender your citizenship. We can hammer these guys into a state of oblivion...if we take the gloves off. There is far too much talk about winning the "hearts and minds" what hearts? what minds? Slap them down - build bases and dare those jack asses to touch us.

Posted by: jack at June 30, 2006 04:25 PM

19 jd,

I'll take you at your word that spitting was an urban myth.

ALL READERS: Please revise my previous comment to replace each instance of "spitting" with: "four decades of portraying Vietnam vets as alcoholic, drug-addicted, suicidal psychopaths haunted by memories of baby-killing rampages in an illegal war, where they personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, etc."

The left DID NOT spit on them, after all.

Posted by: a4g at June 30, 2006 04:38 PM

20 Jack--I'll give you credit for speaking without subterfuge. I think a lot of Bush supporters believe as you do, even though it goes against what the president says.

But let me ask you a question: by what right would we build permanent bases in Iraq? Are you someone who wonders "Hey, how did OUR oil get under THEIR sand?"

Don't they have a right to choose their own future?

How would you feel if another nation invaded your country, and set up bases?

There are moments, limited and rare, when nations surrender sovereignty. But in the long history of the United States, the majority of our lengthy occupations do not end well. There are exceptions (Japan, Germany being foremost). But Haiti, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and the Phillipines are among many not so successful lengthy occupations. In my opinion, Iraq resembles those much more than it does Germany or Japan.

And--to the extent that we give the Iraqis the impression that we think they are subhuman and worthless, as you and others here suggest, occupation will never succeed at building a better Iraq. the only reason Germany and japan worked is because we extended the hand of friendship...and several tens of billions of dollars.

I'm not suggesting that Iraq would work with more money. Someone mentioned that the left is worried now that Iraq is about to be a victory....uh...yeah, right.

Posted by: jd at June 30, 2006 04:40 PM

21 jd - I am in agreement with you. I just wanted to try on the "redneck - ugly american" for a while. It is a much easier agument. I have been using for a couple of days.

Hard to keep up though...put my brain on the shelf...believe everything George, Karl, Dick and Rummy are saying. Prove how tough I am by being born in the "Right" country and have others doing my fighting for me.

I am a firm beliver in the notion that most people need to feel superior to someone - we just picked the Iraqis.

Posted by: Jack at June 30, 2006 04:58 PM

22 I agree with you JD. We have a right to investigate this. The soldiers may or may not be guilty. We don't know. We weren't there. If they are guilty then they should be in prison for a long time. If not then let them go. This incident is not that hard to believe. Five men can grab a woman, gang rape her and then kill her and the family to keep them quiet and make them look like terrorists.

Posted by: George Ramos at June 30, 2006 05:16 PM

23 I agree with you JD. We have a right to investigate this. The soldiers may or may not be guilty. We don't know. We weren't there. If they are guilty then they should be in prison for a long time. If not then let them go. This incident is not that hard to believe. Five men can grab a woman, gang rape her and then kill her and the family to keep them quiet and make them look like terrorists.

Posted by: George Ramos at June 30, 2006 05:16 PM

24 I agree with you JD. We have a right to investigate this. The soldiers may or may not be guilty. We don't know. We weren't there. If they are guilty then they should be in prison for a long time. If not then let them go. This incident is not that hard to believe. Five men can grab a woman, gang rape her and then kill her and the family to keep them quiet and make them look like terrorists.

Posted by: George Ramos at June 30, 2006 05:16 PM

25 I agree with you JD. We have a right to investigate this. The soldiers may or may not be guilty. We don't know. We weren't there. If they are guilty then they should be in prison for a long time. If not then let them go. This incident is not that hard to believe. Five men can grab a woman, gang rape her and then kill her and the family to keep them quiet and make them look like terrorists.

Posted by: George Ramos at June 30, 2006 05:17 PM

26 I agree with you JD. We have a right to investigate this. The soldiers may or may not be guilty. We don't know. We weren't there. If they are guilty then they should be in prison for a long time. If not then let them go. This incident is not that hard to believe. Five men can grab a woman, gang rape her and then kill her and the family to keep them quiet and make them look like terrorists.

Posted by: George Ramos at June 30, 2006 05:17 PM

27 I agree with you JD. We have a right to investigate this. The soldiers may or may not be guilty. We don't know. We weren't there. If they are guilty then they should be in prison for a long time. If not then let them go. This incident is not that hard to believe. Five men can grab a woman, gang rape her and then kill her and the family to keep them quiet and make them look like terrorists.

Posted by: George Ramos at June 30, 2006 05:17 PM

28 Simple rule -

If the story is first developed by the MSM with/based on Iraqi accusations - then doubt it.

If the story is first developed within the military - then suspect there is a high degree of legitimacy and fact involved. Expect the MSM to jump on it and run with it - its what they do - ignore them - they are irrelevant.

This is why we have a CID - this is why we have specific training in proper behavior, this is why I received specialized training over the years in preventing/recognizing behavior problems.

The military is professional - actions like this are un-professional - what is un-professional undermines the performance and success of the military,compromises morale and jepardizes the mission objectives.

Posted by: hondo at June 30, 2006 06:07 PM

29 Sorry for posting the same thing too much. The comment posting is slow.

Posted by: George Ramos at June 30, 2006 07:07 PM

30 I think the D.A. prosecuting the Duke rape trial is now the commanding general in Iraq.

Any accusation, no matter how ridiculous, is now prosecuting pubically and to the fullest extent of the farce.

Posted by: Darth Vag at June 30, 2006 07:53 PM

31 I'm not even going to read the rest of the comments here because I see already there are those who would parse every word and question every statement for clarity. My feeling is that if one cannot understand the gist of what is being said, especially knowing the author, then excuse me, but

fuck 'em.

I've never said that word here, but I've had ENOUGH. I'm sick and damn tired of the nit picking and the so-wait-what-are-you-saying? bullshit. Rusty said what he said. If you can't understand it or if you're reading too much or not enough into it, then you're obviously not cut out for the nuance that you claim to have such a firm grasp of.

"The LEFT didn't start this. The MEDIA didn't start this."

Are you kidding?

The media and their leftist enablers have been at this for over three years. They've got it down to an art. The constant, omnipresent hyper-criticism has had its toll on the entire war effort. No one can breathe for fear of retribution.

If someone did something wrong then it will be dealt with. You can rest assured of it at this point. The fact is these things are almost always already under investigation before the media gets their grubby little hands on it and the public starts second-guessing and passing judgement.

As an aside:
Occasional departures from what the general public deems "fair war" is a far cry from turning a country into a parking lot.

And no one ever asked 'me' about spitting on returning Vietnam soldiers. I saw it happen in Coconut Grove in Miami in 1971 on a sunny Sunday afternoon. The guy that did it turned away after to put his arm around his girlfriend and she shoved him. Somehow I doubt it was the one and only incident.

Posted by: Oyster at June 30, 2006 10:13 PM

32 Hmmm, accusations against Americans are lies and libel. Accusations against Arabs are the G(g)od's honest truth (your god of choice of course). Don't bother thinking or anything.

Posted by: Joe at June 30, 2006 11:12 PM

33 Quote:If someone did something wrong then it will be dealt with. You can rest assured of it at this point. The fact is these things are almost always already under investigation before the media gets their grubby little hands on it and the public starts second-guessing and passing judgement.

"At this point"? What point would that be Oyster?
The post-Haditha now? The incident that was dismissed until Time magazine did the full investigation the military failed to? Or post-Abu Ghraib which made the military so keen to fully investigate crimes before the media did that Haditha was left to the media to account for some two years later?

Posted by: Sev at July 01, 2006 01:41 AM

34 jd,

My brothers and uncle were spit on, I was there.

Posted by: Ali V at July 01, 2006 11:01 AM

35 Oyster and Ali--please tell us what happened next, after a returning Vietnam vet was spit on, in your presence. The vet just said...yeah, I deserved that? Doesn't sound like vets I know. In fact, I know some Marines that, even if outnumbered, would bash some heads for spitting on them. In the case of Ali--your brothers and uncles were spit on, at the same time? And they just said...mazeltov?

If you have a documented case(s) of vietnam vets being spit on, you should contact the book's author (you can find him by googling the book title, he's a prof somewhere) and ask him to include those incidents in the next edition.

Military is now saying that the rape/killing was planned for at least a month in advance.

Rape and war often go together. There's a great book called "Against Our Wills" which was the first academic study of rape through the centuries. It makes just that point in an early chapter. I'm perfectly willing to believe that, compared to occupying armies from almost any other country, our troops have lower incidents of rape. But to believe that American troops could NEVER do this is wrong, in my opinion.

Posted by: jd at July 01, 2006 11:10 AM

36 And, also--what did you do? When you saw a vet spit on? Even in the 60s and 70s, that would qualify as a crime. Did it lead to a fight? Did it lead to charges?

Be as specific as you possibly can in terms of location, date, witnesses, etc.

Posted by: jd at July 01, 2006 12:58 PM

37 American soldiers are not some higher race -- they can take only so much pressure before they crack. This incident is just a start - we will see more and more things like that: revenge killings, rapes, atrocities toward children. And then, discipline unravels to the level of no return. WELCOME TO VIET NAM!!

Posted by: eric at July 01, 2006 06:09 PM

38 Ever wonder why the newsreels and pictures of the landings at Normandy were not released until WW2 was over?
Were our military leaders smarter 50 years ago? Damn right they were. They knew there was some JD's out there.

And George Ramos: Living proof that liberals are too stupid to push a button one time.

Posted by: greyrooster at July 02, 2006 10:25 AM

39 Actually, some of the newsreels were released contemporaneously, although because of the time it took to process film, and the broad censorship at the time, it was not immediate.

But the core of your point, GR, that the media-military relationship was different in WWII is accurate. The reasons for the shift are not that the media has been taken over by Marxist Leninists. I think a lot of it has to do with technology, the increasing market competition of broadcast media, the end of the draft (so that most reporters no longer have any experience of the military, and the military tends to come from a less broad swath of classes), and the experiences of vietnam and watergate, when the media and the nation learned that top government and military officials would lie to the people and the press with impunity, would falsely cite national security as a reason for secrecy and lies, and that the costs of those lies to the nation in blood and treasure could be extreme.

Posted by: jd at July 02, 2006 11:57 AM

40 Let's not leave out Hamandia. Here's what NCIS says happened: 7 Marines/1 Corpsman got bored waiting at an ambush post at 2am. Went looking for trouble. Found a compound with several houses. Pounded on one door. Man came to door, they asked to borrow his AK-47. He said sure. They saw a shovel and took it with them. Went to the next door -- pounded on it -- several eyewitnesses by now, as they were not quiet. No one answered the door, so they went to next door. Woman came to door -- "any men here?" she says no, though there is an eyewitness male watching from window of the house. Go to 4th house. Pound on door. Man comes to door in bathrobe. They grab him, take him to humvee, drive to roadside where they have dug a hole, tie him hand and foot, then all 8 -- yup, all 8 -- fire at him as he's lying in the hole. 4 round hit him in the face. not the body, 4 in the face. 7 marines and a corpsman shoot at a man lying in a hole and he gets hit 4 times in the face. Then they fill out the sparsest report ever imagined. the only problem is that this all happened right after USMC got a real raking over the coals from the press and congress for not investigating haditha.

now this investigation is still on-going, while 8 guys sit in the brig in solitary confinement. they've been charged with murder, kidnapping, etc., including theft of the ak-47 and the shovel.

someone tell me -- is there a "down-side" for our enemy to make these accusations?

Posted by: Conner at July 02, 2006 06:21 PM

41 Let's not leave out Hamandia. Here's what NCIS says happened: 7 Marines/1 Corpsman got bored waiting at an ambush post at 2am. Went looking for trouble. Found a compound with several houses. Pounded on one door. Man came to door, they asked to borrow his AK-47. He said sure. They saw a shovel and took it with them. Went to the next door -- pounded on it -- several eyewitnesses by now, as they were not quiet. No one answered the door, so they went to next door. Woman came to door -- "any men here?" she says no, though there is an eyewitness male watching from window of the house. Go to 4th house. Pound on door. Man comes to door in bathrobe. They grab him, take him to humvee, drive to roadside where they have dug a hole, tie him hand and foot, then all 8 -- yup, all 8 -- fire at him as he's lying in the hole. 4 rounds hit him in the face. not the body, 4 in the face. 7 marines and a corpsman shoot at a man lying in a hole and he gets hit 4 times in the face. Then they fill out the sparsest report ever imagined.

4 days later, after trying to get $ from our military but are turned down because he’s an insurgent, they apparently come up with this story.

The problem is that this all just happened to occur right after MC brass got a real raking over the coals from the press and congress for not investigating haditha. NCIS pulls out all the stops to get them to sign statements to show how tough the Marines can be on their own.

now this investigation is still on-going, while 8 guys sit in the brig in solitary confinement. they've been charged with murder, kidnapping, etc., including theft of the ak-47 and the shovel.

Now here’s my question -- is there a "down-side" for our enemy to make these accusations? Do they face any recrimination what soever?

Posted by: con at July 02, 2006 06:24 PM

42 Let's not leave out Hamandia. Here's what NCIS says happened: 7 Marines/1 Corpsman got bored waiting at an ambush post at 2am. Went looking for trouble. Found a compound with several houses. Pounded on one door. Man came to door, they asked to borrow his AK-47. He said sure. They saw a shovel and took it with them. Went to the next door -- pounded on it -- several eyewitnesses by now, as they were not quiet. No one answered the door, so they went to next door. Woman came to door -- "any men here?" she says no, though there is an eyewitness male watching from window of the house. Go to 4th house. Pound on door. Man comes to door in bathrobe. They grab him, take him to humvee, drive to roadside where they have dug a hole, tie him hand and foot, then all 8 -- yup, all 8 -- fire at him as he's lying in the hole. 4 rounds hit him in the face. not the body, 4 in the face. 7 marines and a corpsman shoot at a man lying in a hole and he gets hit 4 times in the face. Then they fill out the sparsest report ever imagined. (more)

Posted by: Conner at July 02, 2006 06:26 PM

43 look if you don't want to read about this type of story in the New York times don't buy the paper. Here is the story from Fox Newshttp://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201796,00.html

Posted by: JOHN RYAN at July 02, 2006 10:08 PM

44 Unbelievable story in today's NYTs. Did anyone know that more Americans died in British prisons during the war than on the battlefield? That Britain refused to grant them POW status? That they were treated incredibly brutally? That their treatment led to the first international law on such things?******
The prisoners of New York left their mark somewhere else, too — in international law. Almost to the bitter end, the British took the position that captured American insurgents weren't soldiers but "rebels" and that defining them as prisoners of war amounted to de facto recognition of American independence. Americans responded that by not according prisoner-of-war status to the captives, the British had opened the door to, perhaps even encouraged, prison abuses.

An additional complication was that rules and standards governing the treatment of prisoners of war had yet to be spelled out definitively in international law. This began to change in 1785, just two years after the British evacuated Manhattan, when the United States and Prussia concluded a treaty that included the first guidelines for the humane treatment of prisoners of war. They mustn't be denied adequate rations and basic "comforts," it declared, nor "be confined in dungeons, prison ships, nor prisons, nor be put into irons, nor bound, nor otherwise restrained in the use of their limbs."

This groundbreaking agreement — a direct result of the recent American experience — was a historic first step toward the multinational conventions that now protect prisoners of war.

Of course, even if such guidelines had been in effect during the Revolutionary War, there's no guarantee that they would have been followed. Britain was the world's superpower in those days, as the United States is now, and if King George didn't want to treat "rebel" prisoners humanely, only principle and conscience stood in his way.

Posted by: jd at July 03, 2006 07:33 AM

45 JD: We learned that in the 2nd grade many, many years ago.

RUSTY: Rape is Rape and Murder is Murder. Regardles of the context. GREAT. Perhaps, we could shout it more often in American courts. Or does such statements only count when applied to US Soldiers in Iraq?
I still refuse to believe what a muslim says. They lie about everything and anything. Suddenly, what they say should be listened to. I think Al Sharpton and Tawana Brawley have moved to Iraq.

Or are they at Duke University in instructing black strippers on how to destroy the lives of Lacross players.

Posted by: greyrooster at July 04, 2006 12:26 AM

46 You learned about the cruelty of British POW camps in 2nd grade? Wow. That's some curriculum. Let me just say this kind of confirms my opinion that you seldom have facts on your side when you type here.

Although, I do very much appreciate your honest racism in your post above, when you said that your family used to own slaves, freed them, and now their descendants live in public housing, so you are still supporting them. Two possibilities--your family kept very good early 19th century records, and you traced, by careful genealogy, where your ex-slaves and their children and great great great great grandchildren live.

Or, you are just a lousy stinking asshole racist, who makes dumb afactual assumptions.

I'm going with option 2.

Posted by: jd at July 04, 2006 10:02 AM

47 I wonder about the personality disorder with this former soldier .. if true, its horrible, but this one ex-soldier should never reflect the other 99.9 percent of the soldiers rotating through that country.

Posted by: Bluangel at July 04, 2006 11:33 PM

48 I agree, Bluangel. There are merciless killers and sociopaths in any large group, whether we are talking about the Kiwanis or the Army.

It seems from the accounts now being circulated that this one guy killed the family first, and then raped the girl with one other soldier, and then killed her. It seems plausible to me that he told the others part of his plan, and they might not have known that he intended to kill everyone. Confronted with his acts, complicit in them in a sense, they then agreed to a coverup? Sure, they might have known it, too. But let's get the facts.

Another thing that will become clear to smart Iraqis: think of all the rapes and murders perpetrated by the Baath Party. Then think of how many times a single trial was held? If we try this guy, and convict him, nothing will do more to show the rule of law. It will not outweigh the PR damage of the rape and murder itself perhaps, but it will be a positive step.

Posted by: jd at July 05, 2006 08:18 AM

49 JD: Yes I am a racist. Proud of it. I realize most faggots like you don't like racists because you figure you're next. RIGHT YOU ARE.

Yes my family keeps very close records. We are a proud family. You probably don't know who your daddy is but we do. Several tracks of land in Virginia and Tennessee are filed at the court houses as claims in my families names to this day.
I have records of my ancestors birth places and birth days going back past the 18th century.
You being some asshole cross breed naturally don't. Sorry that you are jealous. But again, most of you dick lickers are. Nothing new here.

Posted by: greyrooster at July 05, 2006 10:29 PM

50 It must be very distressing for you to realize that the tide of history is working against racism and against the sad homophobia you represent. You are fighting a long rear guard action (ha!) against racial equality and sexual equality for gays and lesbians. You are probably smart enough (barely) to realize that you are losing and will ultimately lose. So I can understand your anger, and your pointless threats. Enjoy these tiny ephemeral pleasures as you contemplate the larger defeats ahead for you and your causes.

And I've traced my history back to the Norman invasion.

Posted by: jd at July 06, 2006 12:01 PM

51 Bullshit! You track your history back to the Castro District in San Francisco.

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