(Updated) Hostage Video Released, Hostages Identified (Images/Video)


**Jawa Report Exclusive**

***The Jawa Report releases names of four Western hostages.***

A hostage video has been released of the four Western peace activists taken hostage in Iraq. The Jawa Report has obtained a copy of the video. Images from the video and links to video posted below. The video shows American Thomas Fox of Clear Brook Virginia, Canadian Harmeet Singh Sooden, who resides in Auckland, New Zealand, British citizen Norman Kember, and some one who appears to identify himself as James Loney(spelling confirmed) of Canada.

Previously only Norman Kember had been identified. The Christian Peacemaker Teams organization has confirmed to The Jawa Report in an e-mail that the four hostages were working for that group.

The copy of the video I have makes no ransom demands, although a voice can be heard directing the hostages in the background. UPDATE: Ian at the Political Teen is hosting a segment of the video here.

Here is a transcript of the video:

My name is Norman Kember. I am 74. I am a member of the Christian Peacemaking team in Iraq.

My name is Harmeet Sooden. I am 32 and I am working..I'm a volunteer for the CPT in Iraq.

My name is James Loney. I am 41 years old. I am from Canada and I am part of the Christian Peacemaker team in Iraq.

My name is Tom Fox and I am 54 years old. I am from the United States and I am a member of the Christian Peacmakers team in Iraq.

Hat tip: Doubletap who e-mailed me the video.

Here is a rough translation of the statement accompanying the video--again, thanks to Doubletap:

foreign arrest of four spy

Praise be to God god of the scientists and the prayer and the faithful peace on the prophet, and on his family and accompanied him ['ajme'yn]

As for after. Losing managed your brothers in secrecy of swords the truth from arrest of four spy is foreign forces of the occupation under cover do for what Christian team the peace rises in, [wllh] the praising god of the scientists.

Secrecy swords of the truth

Swords of Righteousness Brigade is how some MSM outlets are translating the announcement. The group accused the four peace activists of "masqerading" as peace activists and of really being spies. Update: My sources indicate that "The Swords of Righteousness Brigade" may be an offshoot of The Islamic Army in Iraq. The announcement and video were posted on that group's website earlier today. The Islamic Army in Iraq has murdered foreign hostages in the past, including Italian Red Cross worker Enzo Baldoni, and has worked with Abu Musab al Zarqawi's al Qaeda in Iraq in the past. This is bad news for the hostages if confirmed.

The original announcement in Arabic can be downloaded here if some one would like to offer a better translation.

UPDATE: Flip from Suitably Flip has a different machine translation here which is a little clearer.

UPDATE II: Shawn of Bareknucklepolitics points us to these dispatches from Iraq written by hostage Thomas Fox who wonders if Americans are inheritly racists and have colonialist attitudes. We pity people like Tom who have such low regard for the men who will now risk their lives to save his.

UPDATE: Jawa Report revelations force CPT to confirm identities of hostages.

We can confirm the identities of those who are being held as follows:

Tom Fox, age 54, is from Clearbrook, Virginia and is a dedicated father of two children. For the past two years, Mr. Fox has worked with CPT in partnership with Iraqi human rights organizations to promote peace. Mr. Fox has been faithful in the observance of Quaker practice for 22 years. While in Iraq, he sought a more complete understanding of Islamic cultural richness. He is committed to telling the truth to U.S. citizens about the horrors of war and its effects on ordinary Iraqi civilians and families as a result of U.S. policies and practices.

Mr. Fox is an accomplished musician. He plays the bass clarinet and the recorder and he loves to cook. He has also worked as a professional grocer. Mr. Fox devotes much of his time to working with children. He has served as an adult leader of youth programs and worked at a Quaker camp for youth. He has facilitated young people's participation in opposing war and violence. Mr. Fox is a quiet and peaceful man, respectful of everyone, who believes that "there is that of God in every person" which is why work for peace is so important to him.


Norman Kember, age 74, is from London, England.He and his wife of 45 years have two married daughters and a 3-year old grandson. He has been a pacifist all his life beginning with his work in a hospital instead of National Service at age 18. Before his retirement he was a professor teaching medical students at St Bartholemew's Hospital in London. He is well-known as a peace activist, and has been involved in several peace groups. For the past 10 years he has volunteered with a local program providing free food to the homeless. He likes walking, birdwatching, and writing humorous songs and sketches. In his younger days he enjoyed mountaineering.


James Loney, 41, is a community worker from Toronto, Canada. He has been a member of Christian Peacemaker Teams since August 2000, and is currently the Program Coordinator for CPT Canada. On previous visits to Iraq, his work focused on taking testimonies from families of detainees for CPT's report on detainee abuse, and making recommendations for securing basic legal rights. James was leading the November 2005 delegation in Iraq when he went missing.

James is a peace activist, writer, trained mediator, and works actively with two Toronto community conflict resolution services. He has spent many years working to provide housing and support for homeless people.

In a personal statement from James to CPT, he writes: "I believe that our actions as a people of peace must be an expression of hope for everyone. My hope in practising non-violence is that I can be a conduit for the transformative power of God's love acting upon me as much as I hope it will act upon others around me."


Harmeet Singh Sooden, 32 is a Canadian electrical engineer. He is studying for a masters degree in English literature in Auckland University in New Zealand to prepare for a teaching career. He enjoys art, is active in squash and worked part time as a local squash coach. His family describes him as peaceful and fun-loving and he is known to be passionate about the plight of the underprivileged around the globe. He works tirelessly in his spare time to educate and help others.

Update: Ex-wife of former hostage Roy Hallums chimes in:
I was deeply saddened to hear that more hostages were taken. These men were good Christian men trying to help promote peace in Iraq. I will pray for their safe release and for their families. There is such devastation to the families , I know this horror... I pray for them , I wish I could help in some way.

-Susan Hallums

Developing.....

Images below.

Image of Canadian Harmeet Singh Sooden--also a resident of New Zealand-- from the hostage video.

christian_peacemakers_hostage_video_Harmeet_1.jpg

Image of James Loney, also of Canada.

christian_peacemakers_hostage_video_James_1.jpg


Image of Thomas Fox, an American from Virginia, from the hostage video.

christian_peacemakers_hostage_video_Tom_FOX_1.jpg

Image of Briton Norman Kember from the hostage video.

christian_peacemakers_hostage_video_norman_kember_2.jpg

Video has been uploaded here by Doubletap.

Background in the Norman Kember archives.

Posted by: Rusty at 11:14 AM

Comments

1 How will the left react if the terrorists behead four of their own?

Posted by: RepJ at November 29, 2005 12:29 PM

2 "Hi! my name is goesh and I know these guys that are about to saw off my head were driven to it by George Bush and the other running dogs of Halliburton. I will gladly give my life if it will stop the senseless slaughter of millions of innocent Iraqis at the hands of the US. Cindy!? If you are listening, don't stop talking and protesting! You are making a difference and if my head can be dried and shrunken and sent to you, feel free to use it as a symbol of peaceful resistance to any war. Carry it high and proud and know that I was true to my convictions. I forgive these men for the strong statement they are about to make in protest against US occupation of their land. Amen"

Posted by: goesh at November 29, 2005 12:39 PM

3 Did anyone else notice that the voice directing the hostages sounded suspiciously like Guiliana Sgrena?

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 29, 2005 12:44 PM

4 Yeah but the big question is if Cindy Shehan will go over there. I think if she is really committed to being anti-war she will confront the violence in Iraq in the best liberal tradition, by not holding any Iraqi responsible for any of the violence. Let's see what Cindy is really made of, shall we?

Posted by: Henry at November 29, 2005 01:00 PM

5 Menezes' ghost I offer you a broom handle to ram up your backside.

On a more sane note...this group doesn't look like Zaqueery's mob so these guys may survive and learn from the error of their ways. I wonder if they truely believe their peaceful resistance techniques now, surely not. They all look shit scared to me...who wouldn't be.

Posted by: Jester at November 29, 2005 01:14 PM

6 I'm guessing they ain't really spys. Surely even the CIA has more sense than to go into Iraq under the auspices of a group with "Christian" in the name.

Posted by: buzz at November 29, 2005 01:25 PM

7 NOT ONE DIME TO FREE THEM. NOT ONE DROP OF BLOOD IN RESCUING THEM. LET THEM DIE.

Posted by: JUMMY at November 29, 2005 01:36 PM

8 Buzz:
Terrorist victims are rationalized with:
Muslim Victim: Apostate, Foe of Allah.
Anyone Else: Crusader/Jew spy.

That's how they rationalize the need to execute them to their brethren.

Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 01:39 PM

9 Good thinking, buzz! You just can't trust interpretors when you're an American slinking around the Baghdad alleys trying to learn the whereabouts of zarqawi.

Posted by: Al(fredo) at November 29, 2005 01:40 PM

10 It has been said that the head remains alive for as much as 1 minute after being severed from the body. (I don't know how they would prove that) I wonder if, in that minute, the peace-niks will still be thinking that negotiation and appeasement is the way to stop terrorism.

Or will they think, "Wait a minute. I've changed my mind. Kill all these SOB's and let Allah sort em out!" ?

Posted by: Mark at November 29, 2005 01:46 PM

11 It has been said that the head remains alive for as much as 1 minute after being severed from the body. (I don't know how they would prove that) I wonder if, in that minute, the peace-niks will still be thinking that negotiation and appeasement is the way to stop terrorism.

Or will they think, "Wait a minute. I've changed my mind. Kill all these SOB's and let Allah sort em out!" ?

Posted by: Mark at November 29, 2005 01:46 PM

12 It has been said that the head remains alive for as much as 1 minute after being severed from the body. (I don't know how they would prove that) I wonder if, in that minute, the peace-niks will still be thinking that negotiation and appeasement is the way to stop terrorism.

Or will they think, "Wait a minute. I've changed my mind. Kill all these SOB's and let Allah sort em out!" ?

Posted by: Mark at November 29, 2005 01:46 PM

13 Now they can take a break from making up war crimes by the Coalition in Iraq to get a head start on documenting some very real terrorist acts by Sunnis and Saudis in Iraq.

Just as soon as they lose their heads, of course.

Posted by: Laurence Simon at November 29, 2005 01:51 PM

14 hey peace activists,

what a bunch of fools the terrorists have made out of you. Look at you now. Not a peep out of you. That's right, shut your damn mouths you fools or they'll cut your damn heads off. You're in the hands of islamic terrorists now. Yeah, is "Bush" still oppressing you? Are you still being silenced by the Patriot Act? It's the "american taliban" you're REALLY afraid of, right? Now look at you, you fools.

Posted by: dcb at November 29, 2005 01:54 PM

15 from the Christian Peacemaker Teams website:

"CPT does not advocate the use of violent force to save lives of its workers should they be kidnapped, held hostage, or caught in the middle of a conflict situation."

Nice to know that the people who encouraged you to walk into this mess will do absolutely nothing to try to get you out.

Posted by: reuben at November 29, 2005 01:56 PM

16 Well Reuben, it looks like that means there's no need to go after them; wouldn't want to offend their morals, after all.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 02:08 PM

17 dcb:
I'm glad you've never made a mistake!

There is nothing wrong with fighting for peace, even soldiers pray for peace.

You do not have to go to Iraq in order to get it, let's face it we're in Iraq, we will be in Iraq, a few guys and their Bible are not going to change that, so it is irresponsible to put themselves in that situation.

They have not only endangered the lives of themselves, and the U.S Special Forces whom are charged with locating and possibly rescuing them, but also Iraqi nationals, their presence as known Christians endangers people in a region where being suspected of being a Christian gets you dead, being seen in the street with them may get you executed.

However, do not mistake irresponsible, with deserving. I hope they are released safely, and hopefully discourage others whom think it's a good idea to tour Iraq with a message of "peace".



Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 02:13 PM

18 They're praying for the Marines now, I betcha.

Posted by: Michael at November 29, 2005 02:14 PM

19 The terrorists dit not harm the Communist from Italy and they will not harm these lelftists for the same reason.

Posted by: Jo macDougal at November 29, 2005 02:14 PM

20 Jesse!
Jesse Jackson!
Where are ya?
We need ya Jesse!
C'mon up outta Nawlins and gitchass ova to Irack!
Some flawa chillins fittin' ta die.

Posted by: Dr. Zubov at November 29, 2005 02:20 PM

21 Mark my words... this all will be found out to be a fraud.

No real kidnapping took place.

Posted by: Jamie at November 29, 2005 02:22 PM

22 Gee, isn't this the same group of commentors who took three words from one of my posts and spent two days talking about how liberals "hate conservatives?"

I'm glad you're not a bunch of hypocrites.

Posted by: Jazz at November 29, 2005 03:08 PM

23 Jesse!
Jesse Jackson!
Where are ya?
We need ya Jesse!
C'mon up outta Nawlins and gitchass ova to Irack!
Some flawa chillins fittin' ta die.

I wonder where the right wing gets its reputation for being a bunch of bigots and homophobes? Damned liberals, always slinging mud!

Posted by: Jazz at November 29, 2005 03:10 PM

24 Hmmm. A stunt, huh, Jamie?

Interesting. I'm not really the conspiratorial type but...interesting.

Posted by: kelly at November 29, 2005 03:10 PM

25 The 4 "taken" are not praying for the Marines. They, like the Italian "activist", know they will not be hurt. It is all a ploy to help the MSM/DNC in their war against the War on Terror.
If we send any warriors to help them they will be denounced as war criminals just as they were in the Italian "activist's" case.

Posted by: Rod Stanton at November 29, 2005 03:11 PM

26 They hate us all, and we should save them for that. People are allowed to talk out of their asses in this country and that's why we are the best. WE should not wish for others deaths even though it would be sweet irony.

Posted by: Kilroy at November 29, 2005 03:12 PM

27 what's the harm in hoping things go bad? we all know that this is a fake kidnapping. in the end, the terrorists will get randsom money, and the reds will get another narrative to advance their story with.

Posted by: jummy at November 29, 2005 03:21 PM

28 Sweet! I made Jazz's list of hateful conservative comments!!! woohoo!! just doing my part to piss of the demented Left.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 03:24 PM

29 Jazz,

If the shoe fits, wear it. You were the one referring to someone as the Hitler (Bush) Youth. And to accuse someone of being a hypocrit, with the baggage you have, is well, hypocritical. The old "it takes one to know one rap".

As for the hostages, poetic justice is the term often used to describe the mess this bunch of interlopers have gotten themselves in to. But they do not deserve to die, and I do not wish it upon them. I pray for their safe and speedy release.

Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 03:29 PM

30 No problem. After holding hands and singing a
few choruses of "Kumbaya" (the left's answer to
war), the kidnappers will see the true inner
peace, love and harmony of these activists.
Then, they'll cut off their heads.

Posted by: George at November 29, 2005 03:33 PM

31 No problem. After holding hands and singing a
few choruses of "Kumbaya" (the left's answer to
war), the kidnappers will see the true inner
peace, love and harmony of these activists.
Then, they'll cut off their heads.

Posted by: George at November 29, 2005 03:35 PM

32 Jummy, Link to the story of the fake kidnapping. (Let's not talk out of or ass like the left) The harm is where better than that. It is a hard pill to swallow, but I will help a Dem who is broken down on the road, as the left just drives bye.

Posted by: Kilroy at November 29, 2005 03:38 PM

33 That damn George Bush!
He droves these freedom fighters of
the ROP to violence! And now they are
threatening violence to the peaceful
Christian Peacemaking teams (aka "Infidels")
.

The head hackers don't seem impressed by
a committment to peace. They are committed
to piece(s). Who could have saw that
coming?

Posted by: John at November 29, 2005 03:38 PM

34 this story needs to not be on this page. it simply increases the danger that these people are in.

Posted by: dr at November 29, 2005 03:39 PM

35 One more vote for theatre, not reality. . . They'll be released in a show of "mercy" and there'll be quite a rumpus on the left. Shameful.

Posted by: Michael B at November 29, 2005 03:40 PM

36 Gee, Jazzy, you loved my comments from the 'liberals hate conservatives' post of the previous day. Tell me something I said that wasn't true.

You neo-libs play loose with the hate speech(that's what you call the same thing if a conservative says it, so turn about is fair play), and expect to get a free pass for what reason? Because a different set of rules apply to you? Not hardly, my friend, those days are over, and we are going to spotlight your hate for everyone to see. That is what you are upset about! And you have the cheek to call someone a hypocrit. Remove the mote from your eye, Jazz, before you criticize the splinter in mine!

Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 03:42 PM

37 This is hard, part of me really wants to gloat, but I really can't shake the part that feels sorry for them and the terror they must be feeling. Honestly, though, I'd be very surprised if they are executed. That whole beheading party that they had earlier this year didn't really pay dividends. They seem to be pretty media savvy, and knew enough to free the Italian journalist. That, and how much fun would it be to slaughter these pathetic lambs? Who knows.

As to the comment by Dave that soldiers pray for peace? Not always.

Mack

Posted by: Mack at November 29, 2005 03:51 PM

38 I disagree Jesusland joe,
Canadians need a reason to get angry at
the izlamofascists. New Zealanders need
a reason to get angry at the
izlamofascists. Virginians don't need
another reason to get angry at the izlamofascists, but apparantly some of them
need a reminder, just as Jordanians needed a reason to get angry at the izlamofascists.
The people of the hostages' countries need
them to be beheaded.

Posted by: PMofthePOL at November 29, 2005 03:53 PM

39 New Zealand has had special forces operating in Afganistan and has fought the muslims in Indonesia to free East Timor. They like the Australians know the meaning of terror. This guy isn't even a kiwi though...he just lives there.

Posted by: Jester at November 29, 2005 04:30 PM

40 My prayers are with these four individuals who are being put on trial because of George Bush,I have said it many times and I will repeat it Bush should be held accountable for what he has done to America's young generation and for war crimes. I pray for peace in Iraq and the world. I was in US Army in 67 when they were lying then re Vietnam and I have found Peace and The Lord in Canada. I pity the Americans with Bush.

Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 04:42 PM

41 Liberal + Canada = No Confidence

Now go play in the street.

Posted by: Kilroy at November 29, 2005 04:45 PM

42 It's the Islamic witch test...

If they are truly innocent they will be beheaded, but since they aren't they will be released from their staged 'confinement'.

The irony of course is the 'witch' is released to burn us... rather then be burned.

How many times do we need to see this?

The Japanese fraud-u-trio, the two Italian 'hostage-frauds' and the recently released "journalist" who was able to prove his anti-American writings excused him...

Or the MyPetJawa documented Giuliana Sgrena Hostage Hoax


Posted by: DANEgerus at November 29, 2005 05:03 PM

43 Myles, I'll join you in praying for these four useful idiots, assuming for the moment that they really are well-intentioned fools and not participating in some media stunt for the Jihadis... But I have a different response to your pity for us Americans: I pity my Canadian cousins for having imported toxic American effluent like you. Fortunately you're in the lunatic minority whichever side of the border you choose.

Posted by: zhorkon at November 29, 2005 05:11 PM

44 Ghost's Brother is a waste of pixels.

Posted by: Cato the Elder at November 29, 2005 05:25 PM

45 Rusty - I sent an email to a "friend of ours" in Egypt for translation of the document.

Posted by: Beth at November 29, 2005 05:31 PM

46 To all commentors: Good news/bad news depending on your persuasion.

The un-uniformed, stateless and masked murderers of any humanity, from baby, mother, father (and most feared by them, G.I. Joe) that present a target, do not care about religion or compassion. They care only about an opportunity to lend credence to their personal power. The Koran, written by their descendants, provides abundant words for alibis. The less talented they are from hard work or studious application, the more likely they are to make up the rules ad hoc.

They are on a par with KKK, neo-nazi, marxist, or religious fundamentalists of every stripe. "Victimization" is their excuse for all that modernity has produced which they envy but cannot reproduce themselves.

They can be convinced that 72 virgins await them in the afterlife, but cannot get a date or appeal to any female in this life; except by rape!

Liberals blindly make propaganda for them at their peril for Liberals never met a savage.

The gazelle at least is intelligent enough to run from the cheetah.........






Posted by: Gyrene warrior at November 29, 2005 05:42 PM

47 Kilroy, further to your comments re Liberal + , it has nothing to do with politics it has something to do with Peace loving people who are respected in most of the world.We can play in our streets they are safe to walk and play. I got nothing against the American Citizen its who you allow to be voted in with all his crooks and henchmen.He lied to you all and the rest of the world about Iraq. You people were fooled twice now. Did you ever read about the Fall of the Roman Empire he has potential of doing this to USA in modern history,Bush is bad.All of those young American men and women who have died in Iraq over his big lies.

Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 06:11 PM

48 Myles wrote:

"Did you ever read about the Fall of the Roman Empire"

Often. City of Rome (trational founding) 753 BC. Last Western Emperor deposed 476 AD. Final fall of Eastern Empire 1453 AD. Sounds like a pretty good run to me. So you're saying Bush's "lies" are going to turn the USA into a two-millenium empire? Cool!

Posted by: File Closer at November 29, 2005 06:24 PM

49 "Bush is bad. Squawk!"

Shouldn't you be in Key West, parrothead?

Posted by: Cato the Elder at November 29, 2005 06:32 PM

50 Goesh: You are shit.

Myles: You are stupid.
While Canadian cowards safely play in the streets Americans hold the line against the Islamic terrorists. A country that would welcome you isn't worth pissing on. Canada has gone butts up to the muslims. Piss on the white hating socialists. I say close the border. Who needs cowards.

Posted by: greyrooster at November 29, 2005 06:40 PM

51 I smell a rat... Go look at their website and see if you don't walk away with the same suspicions... Talk of "getting in the way," and John 15:13 right on the front page.

If they feel more brotherly toward those in Iraq than their own countrymen and leaders, wouldn't they be expressing the ultimate Love by laying their lives down for another propaganda snuff film?

How is it all these people Found the Lord and yet they can't seem to muster any love for George Bush? He's a Christian - their Brother - and yet they demonize him, go against God by claiming to know the contents of his heart.

If you really think Bush is your enemy, you are instructed by Christ to pray for him and nothing more.

Posted by: SAS at November 29, 2005 06:44 PM

52 Military men put themselves in conflict situations every day and are willing to die in the name of war. These 4 men, together with the other members of their organization, put themselves in conflict situations because they are willing to die in the name of peace. Is that really so foolish or naive?

Posted by: Rob at November 29, 2005 06:54 PM

53 SAS,

for some odd reason Liberals can find it within themselves to "understand" terrorists, rioters, and villains of every variety, but never conservatives or "Bush". These villains that Libs are able to appreciate always have some good reason for what they do or believe. But conservatives never do. Odd, isn't it?

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 07:02 PM

54 Myles & Rob,

Thank you for proving my thesis that some have never met a savage. Last time I checked, "I" and my kind did not let Bush or anyone get elected. The American voter did that. Breaking news: I risk my life for my marines not for war per se. I am the rough man that lets you two ramble on about stuff of which you have the barest grasp.

History of Rome? I have a masters degree in history. What are your credentials? Nice "monte: watch the hands..." shift to politics rather than dissecting my plainly stated comment.

Just keep grazing gazelles, I am on watch.

If you say it long enough, you can actually make yourselves believe that cheetahs do not exist.








Posted by: Gyrene Warrior at November 29, 2005 07:17 PM

55 And thankful I am that you are on watch, Gyrene Warrior, because worse than cheetahs are out there with only one thing in mind, and that is to kill. They are most akin to mad dogs, and they must be stopped before they infect the World with the disease of Islamic fanaticism.

Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 07:27 PM

56 SAS asks the question about how people have found God and we can not find any love for Bush. Then it is mentioned that Bush is a Cristian , he has told you that, he told storys of being in the military , he told you there were Weapon of Mass Distruction. I could go on with his lies,so if he is a Christian or not he will be facing God one day. In my eyes he is what God warned us of Evil in disguise. I do not agree with the insurgents and their killing either but if Bush had not lied there would be a few thousand more American citizens and I believe there would be less fear in the world of a madman.

Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 07:45 PM

57 Myles:

Mohammed, now there was a madman. And his sick ideology disguised as religion has killed far more people than Bush could ever hope to, if that were indeed Bush's hope.

Gazelle, meet cheetah!

Posted by: Cato the Elder at November 29, 2005 07:48 PM

58 One thing which I have noticed and I do hope others may pick up on, I never called or meant to call anyone down for their beliefs. My thing is a war which some countrys were tricked into. I have not been violent in my comments,I am used to being able to speak my mind as a free man, my being Christian is mine to own and I am at Peace with The Lord and in Canada.I do not call anyone down for being ready to protect his or her country. I began by saying my prayers would be with these four hostages and also for the young men/women and their families.Stop being so hostile,not healthy.

Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 08:19 PM

59 Once upon a time, a kindly friar found a wounded snake in his garden. He took the serpent into his humble house, tended its wounds and cared for it till it recovered.

When it recovered, it bit the friar. As the friar lay dying, he called out “O serpent, I cared for you and nursed you back to health, why have you slain me!?” “Because I’m a snake”, said the serpent as he slithered away.

Posted by: Scott Free at November 29, 2005 08:29 PM

60 Unhappily for them, these gentlemen are about to discover what one of them sought, "a more complete understanding of Islamic cultural richness." Neither of them look particularly happy to be so close to "understanding" all that "cultural richness."

My prayers for them and their families.

Posted by: Helen at November 29, 2005 08:33 PM

61 dr, you've got to be kidding. Assuming that anyone in a position to affect the outcome even reads this, it's likely to make them safer: We all seem to be in agreement that they are idiots who don't deserve rescue and whilst we would be somewhat sad should they be decapitated, none of us would lose sleep over it.

Rob, yes, it is foolish. Noble, perhaps. Honorable, perhaps. Foolish, definitely. Scott explains why very nicely.

Posted by: mrsizer at November 29, 2005 08:45 PM

62 "CPT does not advocate the use of violent force to save lives of its workers should they be kidnapped, held hostage, or caught in the middle of a conflict situation."

Good, because I would hate to see any of our Troops had to put themselves into harm's way because of these foolish people who have no business in a war zone to begin with.

Posted by: LindaSoG at November 29, 2005 09:14 PM

63 The Bushian Warfare Cult's hardened kernel of Neocons has duped the American people into fighting the most foolish military campaign in over 2000 years, according to renowned Israeli military strategist and expert, Dr. Martin Van Creveld:

"For misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 B.C sent his legions into Germany and lost them, Bush deserves to be impeached and, once he has been removed from office, put on trial along with the rest of the president's men."

The end result of the public's blind obedience to the Neocons' amoral machinations will be costly, especially with the unleashing and indirect training of horrible, bloodthirsty terrorists for years to come:

"...a divided, chaotic, government-less Iraq is very likely to become a hornets' nest. From it, a hundred mini-Zarqawis will spread all over the Middle East, conducting acts of sabotage and seeking to overthrow governments in Allah's name."

http://www.forward.com/articles/6936
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2005/11/journal_creveld.html













Posted by: Collin Baber at November 29, 2005 09:21 PM

64 How lovely for you all. How perfect. You get to enjoy watching a jihadist fundamentalist behead a pacifist Quaker who expressed his disgust at racist statements made by security contractors in Iraq.

I pity you all and the hate in your hearts.



Posted by: Jeremiah at November 29, 2005 09:23 PM

65 MrSizer,

You're assuming that this organization is in any way sympathetic to the Iraqi insurgency or armed groups of any sort. From what I understand, they take the middle ground, that of the innocent citizens who were first bombed by the US military and are now being bombed again by the insurgents. Surely everyone here can appreciate, if even for a fleeting second, that not everyone in a country of 25 million people can possibly be considered gun-wielding zealots intent on America's downfall.

In every large-scale conflict, there are innocent people who get caught in between. I think it's fair to say that the US military isn't looking out for those people right now and neither are the Iraqi insurgents. These four hostages were knowingly and willingly defending the lives and rights of innocent people within a dangerous war zone and, for that, I think they deserve our respect. Will that save their lives? Maybe, maybe not. Judging from the tone of this particular thread, it wouldn't save their lives if the denizens of the Jawa Report were their captors, either.

Posted by: Rob at November 29, 2005 09:26 PM

66 Collin: If I had a nickle for every time I heard a "strategist and expert" make a prediction that turned out to be profoundly and comically wrong, I would be a very rich man.

How anyone can compare loosing 2 legions (10-14,000 men) in a single day's ambush to conquering an entire country and setting up a new government in 3 years time while losing only 2,000 men and call themself a military expert is beyond me.

Posted by: Scott Free at November 29, 2005 09:29 PM

67 "These four hostages were knowingly and willingly defending the lives and rights of innocent people within a dangerous war zone ..."

How?

Posted by: Scott Free at November 29, 2005 09:33 PM

68 Collin Baber,

Your kidding, right. You expect the American people to impeach a duly elected President on the advice of an Israeli. Now who said the British were becoming anti-Jewish?

And if I remember my history correctly, Augustus lost 12 legions of 40,000-50,000 men, their entourage of 10,000, and a host of weapons, horses and the tools of war. Now how does the loss of 2000 men, as bad as that is, equate with Augustus' loss?

With the stupid statement this guy made, I can hardly believe he is anything more than an apologist for the Left. And frankly, Collin, so are you.

Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 09:39 PM

69 UK Channel 4 news carried a LONG item about this Kember fellow. Its always implied of such veteran peacenics that being old of itself warrants respect. But you know, there's no fool like an old fool. And never have fools there been such as this man and his foolish old friend interviewed on the show. In a radio interview from before his trip Kember more or less said he thought he would come to a sticky end but was going anyway, less in-spite of this danger than implicitly seeking martyrdom. Meanwhile, his old buddy, interviewed live in the UK, declared that as long as these kidnappers were the real "Freedom fighters" as he put it, he was sure everything was just fine! He then went on to say that "They won't have met any westerners like him before, he is kind and a good listener and they are bound to treat him well once they speak to him" ( or words to that effect ). The man was so totally enveloped in his own stereotypes of wicked "Westerners" and delusions of noble "freedom fighters" that he was completely sanguine about this little hiccup on the road to international fellowship. To be frank, I shall be bitterly dissapointed if they dont receive the outcome they are inviting upon themselves by going to such a place, unwanted and unworthy of rescue.

Posted by: Booyakka at November 29, 2005 09:43 PM

70 Collin,

Google is my friend. That would be 3 legions with a loss of about 15000 men and the entire entourage. The question still stands.

Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 09:43 PM

71 I stand corrected.

Posted by: Scott Free at November 29, 2005 09:54 PM

72 >>>"Collin: If I had a nickle for every time I heard a "strategist and expert" make a prediction that turned out to be profoundly and comically wrong, I would be a very rich man.

Scott,

you must understand, for Collin to have found somebody to agree with him who isn't a total street vagrant hippie moonbat or conspiracy theorist is a huge deal. The fact that his cite is Israeli is SHOCKING to Collin, so he cites the guy like he was citing God himself, as if we don't have about 150 guys we could cite to the contrary to every one of Collin's cites.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 10:29 PM

73 George wants oil, Cheney wants more contracts . The world for tne most part want USA out and they wish to see peace in this world. George will be facing his judgement. If anyone is interested go to the google site and type in Failure.Reality is Bush is evil and yes he is destroying America little by little.A Bush is a plant and behind every bush there is a Lie and a friend getting rich. His government will not even permit you as citizens who elected him to see real footage of what is happening to your brothers and sisters over there. Plus all of the innocent citizens in Iraq.

Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 10:31 PM

74 Myles,

what can I say, you're the biggest dumbass on the planet. I could have written that post for you, it's so cliched.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 10:37 PM

75 I am DISGUSTED and APPALLED at some of the statements made here, that go so far as to encourage the kidnappers to murder their captives because they are "peaceniks". What is wrong with you people, that you would have such hatred? Do you hate those who view war differently from you so much that you are willing to side with Al Qaeda and their ilk when it suits you?

Jesus said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do".

I hope that you receive such mercy when judgment is meted out for wishing the deaths of innocents. Now is the time to stand together with our fellow citizens who are in such grave danger. Now is the time for thoughts and prayers for them and their families.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Posted by: Ade at November 29, 2005 10:38 PM

76 Ade,

How do we know these men are innocent? I mean no harm, I just wonder what these men were doing? Exactly what did they do that was promoting peace? I'm just curious, so don't go calling me a fascist and all that. And I have not wished for their death.

Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 10:41 PM

77 Jesusland Joe, that's not an honest question, so I don't think it deserves an honest answer. If you insist on playing devil's advocate when people's lives are at stake, perhaps you can answer me this question: when is it acceptable for shadowy Islamist groups to kidnap people and behead them?

Posted by: Ade at November 29, 2005 10:57 PM

78 Peace activists or not, they deserve our prayers and compassion. I am no liberal, nor do I think they acted wisely, as they have grossly overestimated the supposed reason that they think terrorists have.

These men know, in and of themselves, that all they can become are martyrs. They have no ability to influence policy and to put themselves in danger that increases the danger to our people is foolish.

I for one will think even less of extremists than I do now.

Pray for them, for the sake of your own peace of mind.

Pray for those that despitefully use them.

And pray for their families.

Posted by: Cricket at November 29, 2005 11:10 PM

79 Here's what I think needs to be understood. I came across this thread while reading the news on Bourque (http://www.bourque.org/), Canada's most widely-read one-page news source (4.1 million readers in October).

This is big news for Canadians. Many of us have been thinking about the hostages since the news of their kidnapping, especially since two of them are Canadians. Until now, their identities have been unknown in this country (as far as I know, anyway).

When I read the first bit here, and then scrolled down to see the pictures of the people, I had a sinking sense of dread. We all know what these kidnappers are capable of. We have mourned the murder of hostages, American, British, Japanese and others, as they have happened. The manner in which they die is particularly disturbing and grotesque, a fate I would not wish on anyone.

I also thought about their families and friends. It's entirely likely that many of them, especially more distant relatives, friends and acquaintances, will learn the identities of the people they know from this source. Like I pointed out, a lot of people read Bourque. I thought about how they would feel seeing their loved ones pictured here. I thought about the sick feeling I had in the pit of my stomach, and thought how that would be multiplied a hundred, a thousand times.

And then I started reading the comments. I expected an outpouring of support for those who were kidnapped and the people who love and care about them. I intended to leave my own message of hope and support. Instead, I was shocked by what I found. I'm still shocked.

What I read today was the lowest of the low.

To those who come here seeking information about the people you know, I hope you understand that what you read is the opinions of what is thankfully a minority. Don't take it to heart. Across the globe, people are thinking about, praying for, and wishing and hoping for the best outcome to this situation. Do not give up hope.

Posted by: Ade at November 29, 2005 11:13 PM

80 Ade, your prayers will not be wasted no mater what directionthis goes, people like you and I plus millions of others know they are in God's hands. Yes we should pray for individuals such as jesusland joe and the others with such hatred in their hearts.Why such violent nature ? As for writing that "Post" for me, maybe you could if only you could put mind at ease and stop head hunting.Have another hamburger make it raw.

Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 11:13 PM

81 What was it that little bitch Marky Zuniga said about the four guys who were murdered, burned, and hanged from the bridge in Fallujah? "Screw 'em" I think it was. Well now, where was all your bedwetting leftard outrage then? Did any of you condemn him? No. So FUCK YOU. I hope those goddamn terrorist loving assholes get a dull knife used on them, and I hope your day comes soon too. The sooner the muslims start killing all you filthy liberal pieces of shit, the better I'll think of them.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 11:27 PM

82 >>>"when is it acceptable for shadowy Islamist groups to kidnap people and behead them?"

When they feel that they have a good reason to? After all, if they had every reason to bomb the world trade center, then surely they must have every reason to take a few balding middle-aged white folks hostage. Try to put yourself in their shoes and "understand" them. It's what you Lefties do, no?

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 11:28 PM

83 IM,

you have a real knack for understatement. So tell us how you REALLY feel. LOL!

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 11:30 PM

84 What "out pouring of support" is due to these people? Where is the "out pouring of support" due our armed forces?

Fake Christians stage a fake confinement which will be proven by their release. Why do I say so?

Because this isn't the first, or the second, or the third time...

Human Shields trying to support the deposed fascist minority Sunnis against the oppressed majority America/UK liberated and I'm supposed to give these self delusional frauds the "out pouring of support" they demand because they pretend to run through traffic unsupervised?

JOE LIEBERMAN Today:

"I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood--unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn. . . .

Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory. "

Posted by: DANEgerus at November 29, 2005 11:42 PM

85 “We are angry because what has happened to our teammates is the result of the actions of the U.S. and U.K. governments due to the illegal attack on Iraq and the continuing occupation and oppression of its people.”

This is what is posted on the CPT, the "peace" group to which some of the hostages belong, website. Not one word of condemnation for the bastards who ACTUALLY KIDNAPPED THEIR PEOPLE!

Why isn't that suprising? Because it is written in Leftist Dogma that Everything is the fault of the USA, even when it is carried out by very men the USA is fighting.

And you spineless, worthless pacifists wonder why we get frustrated with you. You wonder why we sometimes need to vent.

Free pacifists are a historical aberration. Parasites on systems they could neither build nor maintain. In nature, you would be slaves. You only exist as free people due to the exertion of better men. So get out of the fucking way and let the better men of the U.S. and Coalition forces do their fucking jobs.

Posted by: Scott Free at November 30, 2005 12:19 AM

86 If you believe what you just subjected my eyes and mind to, well you wear that name DANEgerus well. I can not understand how someone like you can be lied to or brainwashed to this point.They are really going to share with you some poll which was conducted by Iragis for their universities, how did they get that "Torture"?I mean the government will only show you what they want you to see, not the real picture.Can you say George Bush? Now can you say lies?

Posted by: Myles at November 30, 2005 12:19 AM

87 No Miles I can't equate President Bush + Lies. I can however equate you + Bong!

Have a nice day you leftard and if at all possible STFU!

Oh, and ADE, for goodness sake, grow a bleepin' spine, helps the posture doncha know.

Thank you

Posted by: Jake Jacobsen at November 30, 2005 01:07 AM

88 Chamberlain's appeasement policy never worked with Hitler and is never going to work with extremists. They will simply see it and treat it as a weakness, feeling the need to hit harder. It does not make any difference whether we are in or or out of Iraq. We are the infidels and need to be crushed. If we walked out of Iraq tomorrow there would be bloodshed for them but no relief for us. Not until they feel we are crushed completely will there be satisfaction.

The Christian doctrine, turning the other cheek, is admirable (I am a Christian btw) but will simply lose us more lives in the romantic notion that we make a difference to the Islamofascists until we are dead. Only a dead infidel is a good infidel. The day when we truly come to that realization is the day we can start being pro active and not reactive.

If we are not careful we will wake up one morning with a war on our own doorstep like Europe has right now. Look at the outrageous demand by the Muslim community in the U.K to outlaw all opposing views to the prophet Mohammed. Excuse me?

Islam is not about live and let live, just read any of the new Iranian President's mantras. It is about Islam being the way for all of us. Ahem?

Posted by: Alexandra at November 30, 2005 02:51 AM

89 And of course we pray for the hostages and their safe return, discussing the issue with people that don't, is simply a waste of time.

Posted by: Alexandra at November 30, 2005 03:05 AM

90 Booyakka,

"To be frank, I shall be bitterly dissapointed if they dont receive the outcome they are inviting upon themselves by going to such a place, unwanted and unworthy of rescue."

You saw a long segment on Channel 4 and now you are judging the man to a death sentence. What is wrong with you?

You say there is no fool like an old fool, so what if the man has romantic notions of this kind. So has half if not the whole of the left political spectrum world wide. Do you sentence them all to death?

I am to the right of Genghis Khan on the issue of terrorists, I have documented that well enough, but if people disagree with my point of view, it is not something I view punishable by death. How can you even allow yourself to be so cruel.

And of course we pray for the hostages and their safe return, discussing the issue with people that don't, is simply a waste of time.

Posted by: Alexandra at November 30, 2005 03:23 AM

91 Agent Smith, Agent Jones and Agent Brown strongly condemn the terrorists for taking innocent pacifists hostage.

Agent Brown, Agent Jones and Agent Smith also condemn the armchair fighting 101st Keyboarders, chickenhawks and other cowardly rabble for their disgusting remarks and taunts that attempt to devalue the lives of those four brave people.

Posted by: Agent Smith at November 30, 2005 06:03 AM

92 Moonbats needed. The Hug-A-Terrorist program expects four opennings shortly. Please apply in person. Remember Cindy Sheehans philosophy, "Speak Truth to Power", and demand to be heard. Muslims love that. Go now and do good.

Next...

Posted by: The Hat at November 30, 2005 06:36 AM

93 DANE,
Isn't it amazing how the liberal media and Dimmocrats will do anything to take down all the good work the military has done? They will stop at nothing to make the US look bad or worse, make our well trained troops look like they are worse than Saddam. The media will not report on all the good that has been done.
As for these "peacekeepers", just reading thier bios, the seem no better than the liberal media. Mind you, I don't want these men harmed, not one hair of thier head touched. I will pray for thier safe release, but these men also need to open thier eyes and see the good that has been done.

Posted by: Sburstall at November 30, 2005 06:59 AM

94 I will indeed be praying for these men.

I will pray that God's will be done in their lives.

Of course, keep in mind that God is NOT OBLIGATED TO LIMIT HIS KNOWLEDGE OF THE FACTS TO WHAT THE NEW YORK TIMES, ABC, CBS, CBC, NBC, CNN, OR FOX says.

And God is NOT LIMITED by your desires that Saddam's murderous actions, stopped by George Bush, be completely ignored and not taken into account. Just because YOU DO NOT, does not mean that God will not either. He will connect ALL the dots that require connecting, and all your screeching, begging, crying, and whining will not deter Him from doing that one nanometer.

And God is not constrained by pseudo-interpretations of International Law. Hell, he's not constrained AT ALL by International Law, given how Jesus treated the additions and amendations that the Pharisees awarded themselves. He didn't spare them, he won't spare George Bush, and he sure WON'T SPARE YOU.

By being on the Internet, here, now, at this moment, you have no excuses for blinding yourselves or blinkering your vision, treating the terrorists to a different standard than you treat the Americans, and treating yourselves to a different standard than you treat the Americans, given all the information that you have available to you, AND the example of Christ who commanded the application of one rule, one standard, to all without partiality. If you're really lucky, He'll relentlessly apply one standard to all, and nobody's screaming, begging, and pleading will sway Him otherwise. If you're really unlucky, He'll measure out to YOU using the same measuring cup, the same standard, YOU applied to others.

Posted by: Ptah at November 30, 2005 07:09 AM

95 Bah: I clicked "Post" instead of "Preview".

My point is that myles' blather and talk about George Bush facing God on Judgment day ignores the fact that if Bush is to be judged, Myles will too. And I will be too. No exclusions. No exceptions. Nobody is special.

And on that day, God will take All the facts into account. Those facts not only include what you knew, but what you could have known if you dug around. It will include your motives. I am absolutely sure that it will include a judgment of how hard you tried to get all the facts and how fairly and unfairly you judged your opponents who tried to tell you of facts you were ignoring (if they actually did try). And He WILL include Saddam's actions and deeds into the equation. And all of what America, Russia, france, Britain did prior to all that. I have. Some commenters here clearly have not, for various reasons that will be judged as well. Being on the internet, we ALL won't have any excuses for pleading ignorance.

Oh, and another thing: God will also factor in whether you realized you were wrong, and will judge your efforts in righting what you did wrong. Or your efforts to evade admitting you were wrong.

So Myles, if I were you, I wouldn't wish for Judgment Day for Bush anytime soon: The SAME bell that will toll for Him will toll for ME, and toll for YOU, as well.

Posted by: Ptah at November 30, 2005 07:26 AM

96 Ade,

I want to know what I said about these men that is hateful. In my first post I clearly said that these people did not deserve to die, and that I prayed for their safe return.

Me asking a question, and your refusal to answer, I suppose in your mind that makes me a hater. While you pray for me, I will have you in mine.

Posted by: jesusland joe at November 30, 2005 10:28 AM

97 Alexandra, it was not I who condemned the Futile Four to what they have coming to them, I thought Kembers own statements made clear that he ( if not the others ) was consciously CHOOSING that fork in the road. But, yes, I AM cruel, and this is a quality that YOUR God gave me. The same God that gave us the Pakistan aerthquake, the Asian Tsunami, and a million other gestures of "love". Frankly, the problem Americans have with a matter like Iraq is not that they are the fascists of their stereotype but because they are too damn soft. The British Empire had loads of these wars and every one of them they put down mercilessly and completely. Whether in South Africa ( it took 6 years }, or the Boxer rebellion, or the Indian Mutiny, or Oman, or Sudan, or Indonesia ( when it tried to invade Malaysia, a secret war in the Sixties ) or the Malayan "Emergency" itself, roughly contemporaneous to Viet Nam and a paralell scenario but conclusively a triumph for British ruthlessness. Frankly, if American soldiers behaved as the thugs they are slandered as being, well there would not be any more "insurgency" in Iraq. Its precisely because Americans, even on the right, are so damned soft that we have this mess. First thing, ban all news reporting from the region and shoot dead anyone found with a camera. Then ban all private weapons and shoot dead anyone found with one. Then shoot dead every family member of any suicide bomber. Then set up a scheme whereby every time there is a suicide bombing by a Syrian or an IED using Iranian parts, a force nips accross the border to put down the corresponding number of randomly chosen Syrians or Iranians. Then, if the bastards get uppity, tell them to shut it or we get REALLY ruthless.

The great peacenik Bertrand Russell, before he joined CND and before the USSR got the Hbomb publicly argued that the US should preemptively nuke Russia to stop them getting it. This argument was subsequently tactfully forgotten as he turned to seeking our own disarmament. However, we should damn well apply this principle to Iran.

But coming back to the Futile Four, sure I am praying. I am praying they get their heads lopped the same way as many good people who didnt go there intending that. If they genuinely believe they have a loving God watching over them, then why the Hell should they be afraid of dying! Thats the thing about Christians, they want us to believe in Heaven but they dont REALLY believe in it themselves!

Posted by: booyakka at November 30, 2005 10:34 AM

98 Everyone is afraid of dying Booyakka, we are Christians not Saints. And yes zero tolerance is the only language Islamofascists will understand. But you simply take it too far, we can't fight terror with lawlessness. You sound like me when I hear another atrocity perpetrated yet again and become radical.

By fighting them in the same way they fight us you take away our freedom and dignity. You take away our equality and principles of freedom, the very freedom you fight for. We need to fight them with zero tolerance I agree, but if we discard our principles in order to fight the Islamofascists, we run the risk of erasing the distinction between us.

As for the Four Kidnapped I could not disagree with you more in your harsh judgment. You probably don't even mean it. I have to put aside your exaggerated rhetoric and simply say that you cannot seriously wish to execute people for being simply naive, and as I said before you would have to execute half if not the whole of the left political spectrum world wide.

You sound like you are either in the army yourself or part of some sort of special force unit trained to systematically expel all possible emotions that may jeopardize your mission.

Zero Tolerance should be directed towards the terrorists, not the rest of us, whether Christian or Atheist.

Posted by: Alexandra at November 30, 2005 12:12 PM

99 I am reserving any opinion on these hostages— given their stated objectives, it would not surprise me to discover that the whole thing is staged. It wouldn't be the first time!

Posted by: josie at November 30, 2005 01:01 PM

100 [[ While in Iraq, he sought a more complete understanding of Islamic cultural richness. ]]

Ha, what a hoot! I'd say this ironic little turn of events has taught him a few things about Moslems.


Posted by: Mean Kevin at November 30, 2005 01:08 PM

101 Alexandra, thanks for a good answer. I often have thought exactly what you say about not being like our enemy. However, I now say that what distinguishes us from our enemy in THIS conflict is our intended ends, not necessarily the means. In other words, a world free from racism, sexism and similar bigotry may well need to be defended by the same means as a workld where such bigotry is the norm. The Islamofascists use bloodshed to seek THAT world, and no matter how much bloodshed we resort to in defence of OUR world, we will never be the same as them, because that world of values which we seek to protect is a universe apart from their ideals. The Allies of WW2 could never be equated with the NAZIs no matter how similar their weapons! A US army in which women serve can never be equated with muslim fanatics who treat women as beneath livestock. No matter how many civilians are killed on either side. Hence Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Dresden etc remain the actions of a morally superior system to that of the German or Japanese fascists. It really is not the method that we must look to for what separates us from AlQuieda, it is the goals for which we fight.

Then again, its the oil without which our civilisation will disappear almost overnight.Oil is the oxygen of our carefully created society of equals. A military presence near its source is vital to our survival. As I say, in my opinion the Americans are too timid. But if the oil is ever cut off Im sure that would of necessity change, as all cornered creatures pull-out-the-stops when survival is at stake.

As for the Futile Four, my reason for relishing their self-inflicted predicament is that it may jog some sense into the idiots who refer to the islamofascists as "freedom fighters", like Norman Kembers friend interviewed on Channel 4 News in the UK.

Posted by: booyakka at November 30, 2005 04:37 PM

102 >>>"By fighting them in the same way they fight us you take away our freedom and dignity."

"Why not use the ring? Let us use it against them. Long has my father, the steward of Gondor, kept the foes of Mordor at bay. By the blood of our people are your lands kept safe. Give Gondor the weapon of the enemy." -Boromir

Posted by: dcb at November 30, 2005 05:02 PM

103 What the heck. I hope that the freakin left-wing nuts of Anti-war and peace activism gets a major blow to them for this. Deserves them right to say nothing about how Hussein and the terrorist in that regiona nd others are not as important to point out and only point out Bush and our soldiers. Damn left-wing Nuts.

Posted by: Jeff K. at November 30, 2005 08:40 PM

104 Then again who knows, this could be a ruse byt he left to make it seem like Bush did do wrong by saying that the Terrorists are peaceful people when they "supposely" let them free. If its not one thing its another...those left-wing nuts disgrace us guys in the middle who are the real liberals.

Posted by: Jeff at November 30, 2005 08:42 PM

105 Oh, Myles:
"We can play in our streets they are safe to walk and play."
What, the streets in Vancouver, where my various in-laws won't let their kids out to play but make them stay in the backyard and visible, or in Toronto, where - well you know. Of course, I live in Edmonton, not so bad here, but it is in Evil Alberta.
"I got nothing against the American Citizen its who you allow to be voted in with all his crooks and henchmen."
As opposed to the Liberal Party, led by Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin (sorry, I forgot, Martin was "exonerated", wasn't he . . .)
"He lied to you all and the rest of the world about Iraq. You people were fooled twice now."
While Canada's doing so beautifully, wasting its reputation as an effective peacekeeper (except in - NO! - Afghanistan), and with major Canadian gov't figures being implicated in nat'l and UN scandals. And the charming Khadr family, representative of all that is good and right and Canadian (and wrong about Canadian immigration policy). Yet Canadians keep putting the Liberal Party back in - "please sir, may I have another?" Better that than "scary" Conservatives, I suppose.

I'm sure there are few things worse than self-satisfied Americans like myself - or many self-satisfied Canadians whom I know - but I would definitely put on that list self-satisfied American "refugees" who just love, love, love Canada. Well, I hope you like it now, 'cause in 10-20 years it's going to be a whole different country/countries. And I ain't just talking about Québec.

(BTW, I do not grant your premises, except for the purposes of argument.)

As a Christian, I hope these men are saved, and are well and safe. As a U.S. taxpayer, I hope they develop a little more respect for our armed forces.

There are some out-of-bounds comments here. I'm sure that those of you protesting these also go to places like Democratic Underground and the Daily Kos to protest the horrible, nasty comments made about the President, members of the Administration, our armed forces, Americans in general, etc. . . . right?

from a cranky (today, anyway) American bride in Edmonton Alberta

Posted by: Meg Q at November 30, 2005 08:46 PM

106 HA! DCB ( You mean like Di-Chlorinated Biphenols? ) you illustrate for me my arguments elsewhere as to why Lord of The Rings is a peurile pile of shite. Let me ask you this, those hobbits and warlocks spend all their time fretting about spells and supernatural gobbledygook, but what actual RELIGION do they in fact possess? LOTR isnt the Bible or the Quran or even a Wittgensteins Tractatus, its just a silly fairy tale for children made into a bestseller by acid-heads in the Sixties. The movies compound the peurility of the books by laying on a sediment of present day anti-industrial sentiment. Only the evil ones are shown as industrious whilst the goodly dwarves live in Meade addled bucolic never-never land. Who feeds them, who manufactures their clothes and where does their meade come from?

So far, the leaders of a number of nations have possessed the ultimate Ring like power of nuclear weapons for half a century and yet I haven't noticed any of them turn into Gollum. The leaders of all the first era nuclear powers, the US, Britain, France and even, ultimately, the Soviet Union, have duly stepped down to permit a democratic succession. Strangely, it is the leaders of tin-pot banana-republics who cling to such power as they have. Robert Mugabe does a very good impression of Gollum! ( Will someone please ask him why he has a Hitler moustache? ).

Posted by: booyakka at November 30, 2005 08:58 PM

107 ......really sad about these kidnappings.
Hate when innocents get to face the wrath of
fundamentalists.

Also recently an Indian truck driver was killed in
Afghanistan......my condolences to his family.

I hope the authorities succeed in freeing these
hostages.

Posted by: freedom at December 01, 2005 12:45 AM

108 "Freedom" says its sad about the innocent kidnap victims and hopes they can be saved.

The point is, there are thousands of innocent kidnap victims in Iraq who we usually hear nothing about, mainly Iraqis taken hostage by gangs for ransom money.But these particular Foolish Four are certainly not innocent. They walked right into the situation with the intention of gathering "evidence" against our forces, in other words, to help our enemies ( I dont buy it that anyone can be neutral in war, even the Swiss, Swedish and Irish in WW2 were only superficially neutral but in practice helped NAZI Germany ). I is therefore ironic that the charge by the kidnappers that they were "spying", so often levelled at Westerners around the world, is this time actually true! It would be profoundly sickening if some of the soldiers who they went there to gather "evidence" to use against were expected to risk their lives rescuing these men! Does the hypocrisy of the left know no bounds?

Posted by: booyakka at December 01, 2005 12:45 PM

109 Kill em ALL. And when they're dead, kill whoever is standing next to you. And then kill the next person you see. Kill, Kill, Kill.

And then lie about it.

Posted by: Lefty at December 01, 2005 01:53 PM

110 "I hope those goddamn terrorist loving assholes get a dull knife used on them, and I hope your day comes soon too. The sooner the muslims start killing all you filthy liberal pieces of shit, the better I'll think of them."

Watching people consumed by their own hate is pretty funny. This poster seems to be a mixture of hate-consumed and adolescent as well. Hilarious. Mommy didn't give him a hug that morning I guess.

Yo, IM - you're a loser pal! Hahaha

Posted by: angryflower at December 01, 2005 02:03 PM

111 Yes, booyaka, this whole situation is the fault of the left.

Laughable.

Posted by: angryflower at December 01, 2005 02:05 PM

112 Booyakka,

It may interest you to know that these four hostages are well aware of the numbers of innocent locals being kidnapped by armed militias not only in Iraq but also in Hebron, Columbia, and Mexico. If you run a Google search on their website for the term "kidnappings," you'll find all manner of press releases, reports, and first-hand accounts of such atrocities.

Here, I'll make it easy for you: (http://www.google.com/u/ChristianPeacemakerTeams?q=kidnappings&sa=Google+Search&domains=cpt.org&sitesearch=cpt.org)

Foreign nationals have the luxury of leaving when the going gets hot. Local citizens do not. In an act of solidarity with the innocent citizens of Iraq, CPT has chosen to stay behind and continue the difficult task of putting a human face on the day-to-day difficulties experienced by average Iraqis.

Please, if you're going to call these 4 men hypocrites, take the time to educate yourself about them and their work. You may be surprised to find that, while they bring different methods to the table, they're working hard to achieve the very same things.

Posted by: Rob at December 01, 2005 05:49 PM

113 The 4 men went over there not to collect information against 'the coalition' but to help the many, many innocent iraqis you don't hear about (the ones actually want peace and don't have trouble with the west- despite what Fox tells you, the DO exist). The terrorists who kidnapped them are not the ones theyre trying to help.

The simple fact is that when westerners go missing in Iraq its plastered all over the news (and i accept this an unavoidable bias), but what you don't hear about is how [insert number] Iraqi's were shot by lone western mercenaries, or how over 20,000 Iraqi civilians have died in the conflict.. All these guys were doing was helping out those who are being overlooked- raising awareness. (afterall.. whatever happened to Afghanistan? I bet everyone thinks the war is over and everything is rosey and there is no conflict.. but what do you actually know).

Maybe if some people were better educated and understood the muslim culture theyre wouldnt be so much hostility and fear towards middle-eastern countries and arabs in general. For example when people say that muslims treat women as less than livestock.. based on what?? Because they cover them in veils? thats based on western sensibilities which says women should be able to dress anyway they want.. well if your raised a Muslim, you learn that the veil is to protect women from Horny men who choose partners based on looks etc.. is it repression? No, it isnt. Its a different culture. Understand it first.

Having said that, dont look at this post as being "unpatriotic".. the MAJORITY of the soldiers are undoubtly doing a fine job, and it sucks they flak for bad calls by their superiors.. that the 4 workers went over there was definitely ignorant of the circumstances, and it sucks that the soldiers may have to go in harms way to rescue them.. but I hope they survive, why the hell would anyone want death on people who are trying to alleviate prejudice and ignorance.. (your reply: let them die, they shouldve known! THEYRE ALL TERRORISTS OVER THERE!)

Posted by: James at December 03, 2005 06:11 AM

114 Damn straight James. These guys may be far left but they DON'T deserve to have their head chopped off. They were stupid for going to Iraq but they are HUMAN BEINGS. They didn't fake their kidnapping. That's just the far right talking. I feel sorry for these men and their families. They will most likely be killed. They don't deserve this. Just because they disagree with your point of you doesn't give you the right to want them dead. I'm a Republican and I support the war in Iraq but I don't wish harm on innocent people. These hostages are innocent men.

Posted by: George Ramos at December 03, 2005 05:04 PM

115 Agent Jones believes Greyrooster is either a "bitchboy" or a "goatboy".

Posted by: Agent Smith at December 03, 2005 08:30 PM

116 MY EMAIL IS DESIGNERFASHIONSWHOLESALE@LYCOS.CO.UK
These murders are planned and carried out by owners and political people involved in oil deals.These murders are to show the world that how bad muslims are so that money making minds like George Bush and other politicians can have their support from the people and other countries in the world to form their own giverments for contracts to their oil business friends and family.
Just imagine after such a high security alert in Iraq with army checks and police all around at every corner still the terrorist are able to kidnapp foreighners and kill them and releae movies and also are able to hide the bodies after slayghter.
Well this is no terrorism.THIS IS POLITICS.Only the law agencies are able to move free around and arrest any one.I HOPE THE PICTURE IS NOW CLEAR TO THE WORLD AND IT IS VERY IMPORTATNT FOR THE AMERICANS AND EUROPEANS TO TRY GEROGE BUSH IN THE COURT OF HAGUE FOR HIS CRIMES AND KILLING WORLDWIDE.ONE QUESTION TO THE WHOLE WORLD.WHERE THE FUCK THE ARMS,MILITARY,TANKS AIRPLANES DISAPPEAR FORM IRAQ

Posted by: Amanda at December 04, 2005 06:48 AM

117 In my opinion, if I were one of the people kidnapping the canadians I would kill them after they made the Iraqi people die because U.S is forcing them to give their oil to them. It would definately piss me off. They are rebelions of u.s problems. what do you think?

Posted by: punk_rocker_5579 at December 09, 2005 07:17 PM

118 What does it take for one to disregard life and desire the death of another human being? Charges
that are made against these four men about being spies are made without any evidence or proof.
Where is the lenghty and fair trial? Where are the witnesses? Show us the facts that leave no questions or doubt of guilt! This is just a cover up to justify making a political statement and hopefully get away with blackmail and shedding blood. Nothing new here! God's Word tells us that our hearts are "deceitful and desperately wicked". We are all sinners! Compared to people that murder like this we tend to feel pretty good.
Let me tell you, that no matter how good we are, or how many good deeds we do, we all miss the
boat when we are compared to the righteousness of God. God demands perfection if we are to
stand acceptable before Him. The Ten Commandments show us that we are incapable of keeping the law thus, incapable of perfection and incapable of being acceptable before God. Our penalty for being proven guilty...death and eternal separation from God! As was commanded by the law given to mankind, a blood sacrifice is required. Jesus Christ wilfully laid down His life and shed His blood at the hands of mankind for a reason. He was the FINAL sacrifice for our sin. By faith, accepting the blood of Christ as the only sacrifice capable of covering our sin thus, making us acceptable before God (who is the perfect Judge), and declaring us "righteous and acceptable" before Him.
I'm afraid that Satan has deceived the Muslims, just as he has other "religious" people, and atheists (that believe there is no God), that have distorted the simple truth of God's Word. Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and even rose from the dead to show us that He is who He said He was. No other "god", Mohammed or Budda, has ever done that! We can't earn our salvation. We are all born into this world with a sin nature, capable of the most horrendous and hideous acts. Be honest with yourself...are you perfect? I know I'm not! Like putting on a robe, by faith I have accepted the blood of Christ as the paid penalty for my sin and can now, with confidence, stand before God, declared righteous, and accepted in His sight forever!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I do not know the four kidnapped men. But the reason I believe they were in Iraq was to reach out to those in need, showing a love that is motivated by the kind of love God showed us.

Posted by: DJ at December 13, 2005 02:39 PM

119 Thanks DJ...your thoughts and comments are refreshing and have encouraged me to identify with you in our mutual understanding of God's Word. I have been reading the comments on this site for a while now and have been sickened by the amount of people that have sided with the terrorists, wishing the worst for the human lives at stake. How would they feel if they were the ones being held captive?
Their words do indeed paint a picture of the attitude of their hearts, which is as you say quoted in the Bible “deceitful and desperately wicked". I always struggled to understand the Bible until I read a book called “The Stranger On The Road To Emmaus” by John Cross. Lets face it, the Bible is not a user friendly book but John Cross explained the entire message of the Bible in one, easy to read, book. It was not specific to any one particular religious group, and I liked that. It simply explained the Bible the way it was meant to be understood. It kept things in context with the culture and times that the Scriptures were written which is where we so often run into problems. I know now that the Bible speaks the truth about who God is and also reveals the truth about us.
Like anything, it takes faith on our part to believe it but it makes far more sense than anything else that I have learned so far (Including Islam). I’m not a gambling man which is why I chose to accept the message of the Bible that Christ paid the penalty for my sins and died in my place. The Bible speaks more about a place called Hell, where all unbelieving people end up, than it does Heaven, and if this was true and I chose not to believe it, and I ended up in Hell, then I would be the biggest fool that ever walked this earth. I have friends that say “Hell is here on earth”, meaning the
crap that goes on that effects them, but the Bible makes that very clear that it’s not here on earth.
Those terrorists that are wrapped up in their Islamic belief think that dying for the cause will grant them direct access to Paradise. Boy, are they deceived! They are bound by works and rules. Any religion that promotes us having to do certain things, in a certain way, at a certain time, we “might” just make it to Heaven, has missed the boat! It’s not about what we can do to earn our salvation, it’s all about what Christ has done for us. He is the one that saves us from eternal Hell simply by accepting, by faith, what He did for us. The “Stranger On The Road To Emmaus” book explained how, in the Old Testament, God required a “blood sacrifice” as payment for sin. Everybody had to obey this requirement and make this sacrifice once a year in order to enter into Heaven. The Bible says “...without shedding of blood is no remission.” (Heb. 9:22) In other words an animal sacrifice had to be made, it’s blood shed in order for sin to be covered. That ritual ended with Jesus Christ, the Son of God, when He was lifted up on the cross and took our sin upon Himself and shed His own blood for us. He said, during His last moments, that, “it is finished” (Jn. 19:30) No more are we under the requirement of making sacrifices. Christ was the final sacrifice to cover all sin.
DJ, we may be ridiculed for “preaching” or being “long winded” but that would not be new. Truth hurts when people are convicted. People are proud and want to do things the way they want. They want to be free to do their own thing and believe what they want...and they will. God gave us all a free will and with that comes responsibility and consequence for our actions. We will be held accountable before God and are totally responsible for the choices we make. It is our personal decision as to what consequences we face. I had to humble myself and recognize that I could not do anything to earn salvation. No amount of good deeds, church attendance, giving to the needy, enduring hardship, or martyrdom would ever be sufficient for me to gain access into Heaven. The Bible tells me, “Not of works, lest any man should boast”. (Eph. 2:9) I will not be able to boast about what I did when I am in Heaven...it was totally about what Jesus Christ did for me/us. It is
God who deserves all the glory and honour for the mercy He showed on us!
Those terrorists will individually be held responsible before God for the kidnappings and unless they embrace the simple truth of God’s Word (not the deceitful Quran) and accept what Christ has done for them personally they will have regrets that last for all eternity, separated from God and Heaven.

Posted by: Sid at December 15, 2005 09:35 AM

120 Which Way Peace?

Posted by: Jack Altman at December 19, 2005 08:41 AM

121 How true is this? Found on Laura Mansfield's site.

20 December 2005: Germans buy release of hostage Susanne Osthoff by freeing hijacker and murderer of US Navy Diver
Did Germany release the murderer of US Navy Diver Robert Dean Stethem in order to gain the release of German Susanne Osthoff, who had been held hostage by terrorists in Iraq since November 25?

Credible sources in the Egyptian government, who were involved in the negotiations, have confirmed that this is the case.

Earlier today (Tuesday), it was announced that Mohamed Ali Hammadi had been released by the German government. Hammadi had been convicted and sentenced to life without parole by a German court for his role in the hijacking of TWA flight 847.

Robert Dean Stethem was a 23 year old steelworker and diver with the US Navy when he boarded a flight from Athens to Rome on June 14, 1985, at the conclusion of his assignment in the Middle East.

But ten minutes after takeoff, events took a fatal turn for Stethem. Two men, Hizbullah terrorists, stormed the cockpit with guns. One pulled a pin to a hand grenade, and forced the pilot to divert to Beirut.

The terrorists quickly learned that Stethem was in the US Navy, and was severely beaten. He was finally shot in the head, and his body dumped onto the tarmac in Beirut.

It would be 17 days before the remaining hostages were released.

Hammadi, the brother of Hizbullah leader Abdul Hadi Hammadi, was arrested two years after the event by German authorities. Three others implicated in the hijacking remain on the FBI Most Wanted Terrorist list: Imad Mugniyah, Ali Atwa, and Hassan Izz-Al-Din.

In addition to the hijacking of TWA flight 897, Mugniyah has been tied to kidnappings and bombings throughout the world over the past two decades, including the following:

April 18, 1983 bombing of the United States embassy in Beirut, which killed 63 people including 17 Americans
October 23, 1983 simultaneous truck bombings against the French paratroopers and US Marine killing 58 French soldiers and 241 Marines.
September 20, 1984, he attacked the US embassy annex building.
Linked to the numerous kidnappings of Westerners in Beirut through the 1980s – some were killed, some by beheading, and a few were eventually released
March 17, 1992 bombings of the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires Argentina, which killed 29
July 1994 bombing of the AMIA cultural building in in Buenos Aires Argentina, killing 86 people
Orchestrated the 2000 abductions of three Israeli soldiers in the southern part of Lebanon
Abduction of Israeli Colonel Elchanan Tenenbaum.
There are striking similarities between terrorism of 20 years ago at the hands of Mugniyah, and the practices of the present-day terrorists in Iraq.

It is very likely that Mugniyah, who remains at large, is heavily involved in the leadership of the Iraqi “insurgency”.

It is not surprising, then, that attempts were made to force the release of Mugniyah’s compatriot and partner in crime Hammadi by kidnapping a German citizen in Iraq. Since Hammadi’s apprehension in 1987, there have been numerous attempts by Hizbullah and their allied groups to free Hammadi by exchanging him for German hostages in Lebanon in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s.

The release of Hammadi shortly after the release of German hostage Susanne Osthoff is more than coincidence.

Mugniyah and his murdering thugs have finally brokered the release of Hammadi.

Robert Stethem was not the first person murdered by Hammadi and company. He almost certainly will not be the last.

The man who murdered a US Navy diver in cold blood is free - free to kill again.




Posted by: IanT at December 20, 2005 04:33 PM

122 I did some research and it seems that, if in fact this is a hoax, there are several credible details that give me pause:
It seems at least the majority of these events circle around Mohammed Ubaid al-Kubaisi and Abdel Salem al-Kubaisi of the Islamic Clerics Association at the Umm al-Qura Mosque in Baghdad. They're the ones usually involved in attaining the "hostages'" release, and usually cry foul whenever they're not given the credit they believe they deserve. Secondly, the stories that swirled around in Japanese press regarding hostages Junpei Yasuda, Nobutaka Watanabe, Soichiro Koriyama, Noriaki Imai, and Nohoko Takoto were rife with accusations of fraud and bewilderment why they were even there. All were known peace activists. Additionally, the Italian journalists Simona Pari and Simona Torretta, both also well-known activists, have many similarities as does Giuliana Sgrena to the current hostage situation involving these four. I suggest anyone here take a close look themselves at these cases and approach them with a completely open mind -- liberal, conservative, or objective.
If these are all hoaxes, and especially linked in some way, then I sense there needs to be a wider reckoning. Regardless the ends, they don't necessarily justify the means if they're staged. And if they are staged, they're doing immense harm to those I serve with and the Iraqi people themselves by delaying our withdrawal and rebuilding efforts.
As I indicated above, I am a current military member. I am proud of my service and love the people I serve with, believe in a strong (and knowledgeable) defense, and spend a lot of my time trying to promote understanding among cultures. So please, for those of you out there who judge us as hateful war-mongers, be careful: We are trying our best with minimal assistance to make the most of a messy situation in Iraq and give the Iraqis all we can. We are not trying to take anything away from them but give them the freedom to choose how they live, so we DON'T have to fight again in that part of the world. Lastly, this: If the Iraqis didn't truly want us there, and especially felt we were specifically targeting the innocent, then the entire country (including Kurdistan) would be in flames.
I am a 33-year-old veteran of two wars, so naivete goes out the window. I believe what we're doing in Iraq is ultimately good and will bear fruit -- for Iraqis and all others who benefit from their prosperity. (I give you Kurdistan as a shining example.) I do not love war, but see it as an ugly but necessary means to an end when it comes to dictatorial regimes like Hussein's. (Just think how long Iraqis would have suffered once Saddam passed the reins to his even more twisted sons.) So, 'baby-killer?' No, unless you count Saddam's babies.

Posted by: DistantSent at December 23, 2005 12:40 PM

123 ***I believe what we're doing in Iraq is ultimately good and will bear fruit -- for Iraqis and all others who benefit from their prosperity.***

Nicely said! And thank you for being there for all of us.
Here is a quote from a Catholic newspaper in the US which astounds me by the way it describes these captives.

"A prominent Canadian Catholic activist was among four civilians kidnapped by militants in Baghdad, Iraq, where they were advocating peaceful resistance to the U. S. occupation of Iraq."

Let me repeat the key words: advocating resistance to the U.S.

Posted by: maica at December 24, 2005 08:18 PM

124 Seems they were easily forgotten by the media. It's 6:22AM and for some reason, i'm concerned about the welfare of those hostages. God be with them through to the end.

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