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The “Opportunity” To “Co-Opt ObamaCare” And The Lies We Tell Ourselves

When last we met former Romney advisor and conservative health policy expert Avik Roy he presented the broad outline of a “conservative” alternative to ObamaCare (first problem with it…conservatives needed to embrace the progressive dream of universal coverage).

Now he’s back with the full plan and it’s…we’ll here’s Philip Klein’s summation.

And on Wednesday, Roy unveiled a detailed reform proposal he estimates will insure 12 million more Americans than Obamacare by 2025 while bringing down premiums, reducing deficits by $8 trillion over 30 years, and making the pre-existing entitlements of Medicare and Medicaid fiscally sustainable.

Quick side note…I’ve invented a perpetual motion machine that will provide all the world’s power needs for free. So that’s nice.

And what do we have to do to realize this utopia we are being granted? Not much.

The Plan would repeal many of the ACA’s cost-increasing insurance mandates, including the individual mandate. But it would preserve the ACA’s guarantee that every American can purchase coverage regardless of preexisting conditions. And it would utilize the concept of using federal premium support subsidies, on a means-tested basis, to defray the cost of private health coverage.

Hmm, that seems like a problem since you know, those are the things driving the costs of ObamaCare and all.

This is how liberals win. They spend decades trying to get something and conservatives stop fighting against it and start trying to “make it work” six months later. There’s no longer any argument about whether or not we should be doing what liberals want, just how we should be doing it.

Oh sure there are really smart ways all of this will be off-set and we’ll make it up in volume or whatever (most of them, like the Medicaid and Medicare reforms are political non-starters with Democrats who will pocket the coverage expansion and never pony up the reforms). Look, I’m not going to pretend that I’m competent to get in the weeds on this. What I and anyone who has been paying attention to American in the last 80-100 years is competent to tell you is any big government plan to fundamentally run large and important parts of the economy and people’s lives is doomed to fail.

Conservative experts are no smarter than liberal ones when it comes using public resources to rearrange society to their liking. They simply cannot account for all the variables that comes from a large and complex system like a nation of 300 million plus people. And as unexpected situations and reactions arise they will simply insist the solution is just another government tweak here and a little more power there. Rinse, lather and repeat until you have a huge, expensive and ineffective government program that consumes massive amounts of resources while providing at best a mediocre product.

Hey, it’s not that technocratic solutions won’t work, it’s just that they haven’t been tried by the right technocrats!

I’m sure policy wonks will sneer at this attitude and say it’s anti-intellectual. That’s fine. I sneer at their arrogance in thinking they will succeed in harnessing society to their will where others have failed and that the laws of nature don’t apply to them.

Here’s the dirty little secret politicians and health care wonks either won’t admit or only acknowledge silently to themselves in the dark of night…you can’t provide health insurance and health care services to people who can’t afford it without bankrupting the country and/or redistributing money and access from those who would be able to afford it under normal circumstances. And once you start providing “insurance” to people who have conditions that will lead to claims before they pay any premiums and those premiums are unrelated to the health care they will consume, you have created something that isn’t actually “insurance”.

If as a society we want to provide these products and services to people who cannot afford them, let us be honest about what we are doing here….enforced charity. Let’s just call it that and get on with the business of redistributing money and resources from those who have it to those who don’t in the most direct way possible.

That’s the essential truth of ObamaCare. We are rearranging the health insurance and care system for the vast majority of Americans in order to deliver Medicaid to another 7 million or so people. A naked expansion of Medicaid was an impossible political sell so we got all sorts of fairy tales about families saving “up to $2,5000 per year” that never materialized but it was the lie that helped sell the real goal…move people onto government insurance.

Roy’s plan (see it here) is more market oriented than ObamaCare but that’s not exactly a high bar to clear. Eventually though it will collapse under its own weight and lead to greater government cost and interference because it’s promising to do the impossible…provide a free lunch.

This is the same philosophical problem I have with Paul Ryan’s welfare reform ideas. They both presume a level of government competency, agility and responsiveness that has never been displayed in all of history. Just because they are smart guys who say they want to do conservative things doesn’t mean they will have any more success in getting government to function like a private enterprise. It’s simply the nature of government to be inefficient, unresponsive and inadequate to the task of improving people’s lives. Like trying to use a saw to tighten a screw, it’s simply the wrong tool for the job. Until we can admit this, we're running down the wrong road.

But politicians and experts who want to use government to test out their pet theories will simply not admit this fact. It makes them less important or even irrelevant.

So what should we do? Ideally we’d repeal ObamaCare and simply let an insurance market develop without government input or interference. Short of that, I’m starting to come around to the idea of some sort of "guaranteed income". I don't think it will be any more effective in changing people's lives but it'll be cheaper and cleaner. If we’re going to spend all this money on welfare for people, let’s stop pretending the government can spend it well. Some people will use their money on crack and hookers, others will invest in the tools that will lead to a better life. Either way, we shrink the government and make people live with the consequences of their decisions.

In the last few years I’ve gone from a conservative who identified as a Republican to a conservative but am rapidly moving to libertarian. Sure the libertarians are crazy about a lot of things but at least they don’t pretend to have all the answers in the face of decades of evidence to the contrary.

Posted by: DrewM. at 09:34 AM




Comments

(Jump to bottom of page)

1 Drew, with this . . .

"What I and anyone who has been paying attention to American in the last
80-100 years is competent to tell you is no big government plan to
fundamentally run large and important parts of the economy and people's
lives is doomed to fail."

. . . I think you meant "any big government plan to . . . run people's lives is doomed to fail."

Great post.

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at August 14, 2014 09:39 AM (yT080)

2 Just as long as someone else pays for my shit.

Posted by: Sandra Fluke at August 14, 2014 09:40 AM (MNq6o)

3 Stop pushing the insurance model and restore the concept of fee-for-service.

Posted by: --- at August 14, 2014 09:41 AM (MMC8r)

4 There are more diamonds in this post than the Tower of London! Pretty!

Posted by: Dang at August 14, 2014 09:41 AM (MNq6o)

5 When last we met former Romney advisor and conservative health policy expert Avik Roy...



This is no "conservative expert Drew". He is a damned moderate, and possibly even a liberal. He is probably one of the reasons Obama won a second term. Piss on him.


Hell though, the RNCe probably loves this SOB.

Posted by: Vic at August 14, 2014 09:41 AM (T2V/1)

6 Healthcare is an infinite demand. Anyone who doesn't recognize that first, is not worth listening to.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 09:41 AM (YvHmx)

7 That's because progressives are smarter than you stupid racists and Reich-wing criminals at everything except cooking meth in Jesusland trailer parks. And your so called leaders are part of the established order. You embarrass them, so they work around your stupidity. They will be rewarded for the cooperation while your kind is ignored.

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at August 14, 2014 09:42 AM (kQfOx)

8 Oh, and Paul Ryan has never been a conservative either.

Posted by: Vic at August 14, 2014 09:42 AM (T2V/1)

9 Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at August 14, 2014 09:39 AM (yT080)

Yes, yes I did.

Thanks.

Posted by: DrewM. at August 14, 2014 09:42 AM (jyUvl)

10 Because Mexicans are conservative

Or something..

These RINO schmucks want to be the baton twirlers for the Free Shit Army

Posted by: TexasJew at August 14, 2014 09:44 AM (TWzun)

11 The only answer to Roy's bullshit can be, and MUST be, this:

The government is weaponized, and cannot be trusted. Get back to me when it can be trusted to be impartial again.

Posted by: grognard at August 14, 2014 09:44 AM (/29Nl)

12 Libertarians don't think they have all the answers? Really? They routinely wish problems away or ignore them.

Posted by: Y-not at August 14, 2014 09:45 AM (zDsvJ)

13 And it would utilize the concept of using federal premium support subsidies, on a means-tested basis, to defray the cost of private health coverage.

Well, that kind of thing has worked well in containing costs in higher education, so let's go for it.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 14, 2014 09:46 AM (659DL)

14
Stop pushing the insurance model and restore the concept of fee-for-service.

Posted by: ---

Like HSAs. The idiots outlawed those. Having an HSA actually encouraged shopping for the best deals and I found myself forcing a doctor's office to deal with me ala carte on some blood work tests. They finally backed down and did what I wanted for my physical, not what they did for everyone. Saved me some cash and I didn't pay for new tests I already had.

Posted by: Dang at August 14, 2014 09:46 AM (MNq6o)

15 remember when the gop was all for the full repeal of obamacare?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 14, 2014 09:46 AM (u8GsB)

16 Speaking of PR, every morning I check the previous year's morning thread for the same date to make sure I don't repeat the same "on this date" thing.


I noticed a comment I made a year ago about Ryan on the question of how much he would help the Romney campaign. I said none at all. A moderate from the NE will not be helped my a moderate from the North Central.


And I have always said VP candidates rarely help in a Presidential race, but they sure as Hell can kill you.

Posted by: Vic at August 14, 2014 09:46 AM (T2V/1)

17 Who educates your children? Progressive persons. Who runs every government office that regulates life? Progressive persons, enforcing rules made by other progressive persons. So your children are taught to reject your way of life, while your messy Reich-wing 'liberties' are hemmed in more every year for the collective good and social justice. In time, we win. We always do. Deal with it, losers. Go fuck a cousin and feel better, rednecks.

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at August 14, 2014 09:47 AM (kQfOx)

18 The problem with liberals and Democrats, birm, is that all their solutions revolve around slavery.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 09:48 AM (YvHmx)

19 Posted by: Y-not at August 14, 2014 09:45 AM (zDsvJ)

that's a side effect of smoking pot

Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 14, 2014 09:48 AM (u8GsB)

20 14 Like HSAs. The idiots outlawed those. Having an HSA
actually encouraged shopping for the best deals and I found myself
forcing a doctor's office to deal with me ala carte on some blood work
tests. They finally backed down and did what I wanted for my physical,
not what they did for everyone. Saved me some cash and I didn't pay for
new tests I already had.


Posted by: Dang at August 14, 2014 09:46 AM (MNq6o)


HSAs have not been outlawed. I have one. There was a different kind that was outlawed and I have forgotten what that was.

Posted by: Vic at August 14, 2014 09:48 AM (T2V/1)

21 As always, fucking a l w a y s, DrewM fails to acknowledge the reality of what the status quo is.

He then compares republican plans to some fantasy republic where those who can afford healthcare get it and those who can't die in the streets.

He concludes that whatever plan was offered is less conservative than his fantasyland.

Of course, as always, fucking a l w a y s, Drew offers no alternate plan.

What a tiring, worthless exercise it is to read an article like this.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 09:49 AM (u2a4R)

22 Oh good, the idiot has landed.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 14, 2014 09:50 AM (659DL)

23 Drew the last few years I've been coming around to the "the gov already spends billions on welfare and subsidies, we should just move to guarantied income and stop pretending otherwise" as well, but the problem you'll run into with the Leftists/Progressives is once that foot is in the door, what will we do about the

a) all the poor government workers who will be put out of a job over the loss of welfare programs to run (much of welfare systems are job programs as much as they are social nets)

b) all the dumb ass morons that blow through all their gub' money before next year's payout? because you know there will be people that will waste it, or have some sort of traumatic event (injury/illness that goes beyond what their insurance will cover).

I don't see a happy ending there either.

Posted by: Gaff at August 14, 2014 09:52 AM (jPS2y)

24 A $25K voucher for everyone will surely fix this problem in a free market manner.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 09:53 AM (YvHmx)

25 Take your rino romneycare and shove it up your ass fucktard.

Posted by: maddogg at August 14, 2014 09:53 AM (xWW96)

26 This obamacare can't be fixed, repaired, spackled, bent, nor painted to make it work. It was designed to do one thing only. Control the American people. That's it. It was not designed to make health care better. In fact, it took what was the best health care system in the world, in fact the best health care system in history, and has damn near destroyed it. This obamacare was never about people's health care. It was always about control. Hear me, good people. We are not going to like this path. It leads to an ugly place.

Posted by: Erowmero at August 14, 2014 09:53 AM (go5uR)

27 Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 09:49 AM (u2a4R)

Thanks for proving my point. Liberals win because we accept their basic premise...the government must do something.

As for a plan, try reading the penultimate paragraph.

Posted by: DrewM. at August 14, 2014 09:55 AM (jyUvl)

28

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 09:55 AM (YvHmx)

29 "Romney advisor"

Didn't vote for Ex Governor ORCA in '12; won't in '16 if it comes to that.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at August 14, 2014 09:55 AM (8zdPu)

30 I don't think it ever was, but one thing I think that is certain is that ever since it was certain that o-care was going to pass, it ceased to be about healthcare or insurance and instead became all about "one sixth of the economy", re: money.

One sixth of the economy is a shitpot full of money that is too damned tempting for either Dems or Repubs.

This won't ever be repealed (voluntarily) because money is power and politicians could give a fat fuck about anything else.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb (Psalm 109:7- 8) at August 14, 2014 09:57 AM (BZAd3)

31 "Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."

Posted by: firefirefire at August 14, 2014 09:59 AM (nAkDV)

32 The "guaranteed income" won't work, either, Drew, Because "fairness." It isn't fair that I, who blw all my money on ale and whores, now have to live in poverty while, you, evil one-percenter, live high on the hog. You will be forced to hand over "your" money to me.

Because fairness.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at August 14, 2014 09:59 AM (zF6Iw)

33 Uh, libertarians do believe they have all the answers. Legalize drugs ....... Utopia. Since when don't they think they have all the answers. Hell, they are more smug than atheists as to their universal knowledge.

Posted by: ejo at August 14, 2014 09:59 AM (GXvSO)

34 21 As always, fucking a l w a y s, DrewM fails to acknowledge the reality of what the status quo is.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 09:49 AM (u2a4R)

And I noticed how you went on and on about "the reality of what the status quo is."

Genius.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb (Psalm 109:7- 8) at August 14, 2014 10:01 AM (BZAd3)

35 You can make all kinds of provisions for the poor, even socialist in nature, but the instant you accept that people have a right to income just because they draw breath, that is, The Dole, your country is doomed.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 10:02 AM (YvHmx)

36 what happened?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 14, 2014 10:03 AM (u8GsB)

37 21
Of course, as always, fucking a l w a y s, Drew offers no alternate plan.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 09:49 AM (u2a4R)


My plan is to eliminate government planning.

If it can't be done by the free market or private charity, it's not worth doing.

Posted by: rickl at August 14, 2014 10:03 AM (zoehZ)

38 a whole bunch of comments just disappeared?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 14, 2014 10:03 AM (u8GsB)

39 If it can't be done by the free market or private charity, it's not worth doing.

Yep. If it can't be done by the free market or private charity, it can't be done.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 10:04 AM (YvHmx)

40 35- typical RethugliKKKan. You want the poor to die so you can have more money to buy a solid gold toilet or pay the Zionists to illegally oppress the Palestinian refugees or something.

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at August 14, 2014 10:05 AM (kQfOx)

41 Guaranteed income is not a conservative position.

What is needed here is a discussion of what the role of government is. There are far too many people who seem to think that no government is the ideal situation.

Even F.A. Hayek, in the "Road to Serfdom" agrees that government has a role in healthcare:


"Nor is there any reason why the state should not assist the individuals in providing for those common hazards of life against which, because of their uncertainty, few individuals can make adequate provision. Where as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of assistance - where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks - the case for the state's helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong."


It is in our own interest to have a system that combines the collective power of rich society to provide a catastrophic healthcare insurance system. Just as it is in our interest to educate the citizens.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 10:05 AM (u2a4R)

42 Guaranteed income? That's socialism, Drew!

Why is the "guaranteed income" socialism acceptable but the Obamacare socialism unacceptable?

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 10:06 AM (9GG/0)

43 It is in our own interest to have a system that combines the collective power of rich society to provide a catastrophic healthcare insurance system. Just as it is in our interest to educate the citizens.

No, it's not.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 10:06 AM (YvHmx)

44 Just be patient with Obamacare. In a few years when the ruthless ISIS has its claws all over our health care it will really work, just like the 7th century BC.

Yeah, they can be fabric weavers of the American Health Care System

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:07 AM (HVff2)

45 "guaranteed income"




Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 10:07 AM (GQ8sn)

46 until the poor are living the kardashian lifestyle...they are not going to be satisfied and no matter how much you give them...it won't be enough and they won't be grateful for it......

Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 14, 2014 10:07 AM (u8GsB)

47 Mary forgot to mention our first black president. Has he slipped in her polls?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:07 AM (HVff2)

48 You can make all kinds of provisions for the poor, even socialist in nature, but the instant you accept that people have a right to income just because they draw breath, that is, The Dole, your country is doomed.

THIS x1000. John Smith had it right - you don't work, then fuck you, you don't eat.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at August 14, 2014 10:08 AM (zF6Iw)

49 Man dies in shooting outside Philly peace concert.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:08 AM (aW/1n)

50 Blessed are the poor for they shall always be with us.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at August 14, 2014 10:08 AM (Avd1N)

51 "enforced charity" is a contradiction.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:09 AM (HDwDg)

52 "It is in our own interest to have a system that combines the
collective power of rich society to provide a catastrophic healthcare
insurance system."

oh come on, stop repeating liberal talking points for just a minute.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 10:09 AM (9GG/0)

53 33 Uh, libertarians do believe they have all the answers. Legalize drugs ....... Utopia.

I disagree. The libertarian position is anti-utopian. With regard to drug legalization, their argument is not that drug use is good, it's that prohibition causes more problems than drug use itself.

I'm not a fan of the Libertarian Party, but I like the slogan they used back in the 80's: "Utopia is not an option."

Posted by: Harrison Bergeron at August 14, 2014 10:09 AM (eAJwE)

54 46- why do you hate Armenian-American girls, descendants of genocide survivors, who are brave enough to date black men in this racist country?

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at August 14, 2014 10:10 AM (kQfOx)

55 the only way to reduce health insurance costs while increasing availability of health services is to remove the government entirely from the process.

The. Only. Way.

Posted by: MTF at August 14, 2014 10:10 AM (LISuA)

56 Moar free shit. For the children.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:10 AM (aW/1n)

57
Cross posted from previous thread because I consider the point important. YMMV.




235
We should also probably not be living our lives

parsing everything in terms of friends and enemies. It gives them an

unearned win and makes us miserable.



Posted by: Brother Cavil at August 14, 2014 10:02 AM (rt3TY)

What you suggest is what we have been doing now for quite a long time.

It
appears to me to be a defective strategy. Our enemies are growing
stronger, and ever more threatening. Did you not see the Role Playing
Game above where they are portraying Tea Party people as racist
terrorists who need to be shot?

Are you familiar with Nazi propaganda which was put into German school books in an effort to normalize the eradication of Jews?

People later asked "Couldn't they see what was happening?"

Can we?





Posted by: D-Lamp at August 14, 2014 10:07 AM (Vutl+)

Posted by: D-Lamp at August 14, 2014 10:11 AM (Vutl+)

58 If we've decided that the government simply MUST take the fruits of my labor and redistribute it to poor people, then I'm with you on the guaranteed income.

It has the benefit of at least being honest about what we're doing and doesn't involve creating a Rube Goldberg contraption of government agencies that increasingly come with their own SWAT teams.

In a more perfect world, this function would be handled within families and by charities and churches, but that horse left the barn about 80 years ago.

Posted by: Andy at August 14, 2014 10:11 AM (UwYXB)

59 If it can't be done by the free market or private charity, it's not worth doing.

Posted by: rickl at August 14, 2014 10:03 AM (zoehZ)

With the possible exception of the Military

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at August 14, 2014 10:11 AM (R8hU8)

60 It is in our own interest to have a system that combines the collective power of rich society to provide a catastrophic healthcare insurance system. Just as it is in our interest to educate the citizens.

A citizenry educated by the State will be educated to support and elevate the State's interest above that of individual freedom; i.e., the worthless government schools we have now. A corrupt, oligarchic, socialist State is the last entity that should be entrusted with educating people to be proper citizens.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at August 14, 2014 10:11 AM (zF6Iw)

61 mary-

that was a grand leap.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 14, 2014 10:12 AM (u8GsB)

62 I think the point is that a guaranteed income would appear to be cheaper than all the money used to deliver benefits today.

As noted, however, this system became what it is because of the continued growth of the number of government workers.

Federal and State government employees are in many cases forms of handouts to certain demographics.

And it's why the solutions are outside the scope of our constitution.

We're stuck until it collapses of it's own weight.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at August 14, 2014 10:12 AM (Avd1N)

63 involving government in any way in the process of improving the health insurance market is purely ideological, and serves literally no economic purpose.

Posted by: MTF at August 14, 2014 10:12 AM (LISuA)

64 Re: Guaranteed income

Note I said I'm coming around to it, I'm not there.

I agree it's a terrible idea and won't work any better than what we're doing now in terms of outcomes (I said so in the post).

I'm only open to it *if* we are going to have a welfare state as it being possibly the least bad way to do it.

Posted by: DrewM. at August 14, 2014 10:12 AM (jyUvl)

65 Nothing can be done to 'fix' the accumulation of trillions upon trillions of debt and unfunded liabilities and a society where the majority wants money and resources created out of thin air by the Fed. Eventually all the kings men could not put humpty dumpty together again. Be prepared to crawl out from under the rubble boys and girls.

Posted by: angel with a sword at August 14, 2014 10:12 AM (eyLE1)

66 It is in our own interest to have a system that combines the collective power of rich society to provide a catastrophic healthcare insurance system. Just as it is in our interest to educate the citizens.
Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 10:05 AM (u2a4R)

Government has hand in healthcare for a very long time - medicare, medicaid, etc. and for the most part, that intervention has worked about as well as every other thing that government intervenes in - it has infused the healthcare market with inefficiencies, fraud, corruption, and has added to the cost of everything else by creating the need to offset the inefficiencies with greater and greater subsidies.

Government never makes things better and the founders recognized that. That's why they purposefully limited what the federal government should have its mitts in.

Despite what you say, Hayek wasn't suggesting that the federal government take over healthcare.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb (Psalm 109:7- 8) at August 14, 2014 10:12 AM (BZAd3)

67 It's encouraging to hear folks in my Republican party offering real bi-partisan solutions for working families.

We must reject extremists who hate the poor and want to destroy their healthcare.

Posted by: Susan Olivia Cuthbertson-Klein at August 14, 2014 10:13 AM (Ks4nX)

68 Posted by: Andy at August 14, 2014 10:11 AM (UwYXB

the horse didn't leave the barn.

It was slowly murdered by FDR and LBJ.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:13 AM (HDwDg)

69
If we've decided that the government simply MUST take the fruits of my
labor and redistribute it to poor people, then I'm with you on the
guaranteed income.


That's fine. If you're going to accept the basic premise of socialism as a fait accompli then I agree, using the simplest, least toxic version of socialism is the way to go.

But Drew just spent 2/3rds of his post arguing against the entire concept of health-care socialism on ideological grounds (government can't know what's best for you, etc.)

What makes you think that government is going to run a 'guaranteed income' scheme any less incompetently than it is running currently Obamacare or any of the other weaponized socialist schemes that we have now?

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 10:14 AM (9GG/0)

70 Guaranteed income? Are you fucking, I mean fucking nuts? You think you will dissolve some agencies and distribution will go about smoothly?
All you will do is create more government. They can't deliver the mail and follow a budget.

Besides people like me who produce will say fuck it. Fuck. You all talk like fucking douchebags.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:14 AM (HVff2)

71 Jim Hoft @gatewaypundit 31m
Typical ==> White Chicago Communists Are Leading Riots In Missouri http://shar.es/1n4gpP via @progstoday

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 10:15 AM (ZPrif)

72
Is jwest misreading Hayek again? I could have sworn we went through all of this.

Posted by: @JohnTant at August 14, 2014 10:15 AM (eytER)

73 We must reject extremists who hate the poor and want to destroy their healthcare.
===================

you are, of course, referring to Progressives?

they are practically feudal in their devotion to the idea of ruling others, even to the point of hating the poor and destroying health care services.

Posted by: MTF at August 14, 2014 10:15 AM (LISuA)

74 Selma Hayek?

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:16 AM (aW/1n)

75 47, because this is about the fact your own leaders hate you and are pursuing sensible and politically accepted solutions to social issues, not our wise and multiracial President, Barack Obama. He is resting while the world suffers from years of failed Bush Administration policies. Even President Obama cannot do it all alone.

That is why you should all repent and help him help you.

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at August 14, 2014 10:16 AM (kQfOx)

76 It takes a village to pay for my shit.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:17 AM (aW/1n)

77 Twenty Years in the Insurance Industry.

I can tell you that Mandatory Participation in a Health Care through the purchase of Health Insurance is a must if our society is to continue.

If you make it an 'elective' Billy Bob and Shaqwan just aren't going to buy it. And when one of them (or both) end up in the E-Room, the non-payment of those charges get cost-shifted onto those who DO have Insurance.

Just the simple facts.

And let me tell you, I'm more Conservative than most of you. By a WIDE margin.

But I am NOT a Libertarian. Don't like them at all.

It's like Flood Insurance.

Back when it was an elective coverage, nobody would buy it. And because nobody would buy it, the program didn't work.

So a Flood would come and people would shake their fists at God, the Federal Government, the Great Pumpkin..... Whatever. But never themselves.

And we'd bail them out about 3/4 of the time. Shit got old.

So FEMA comes along and tells Banks...... You want FDIC and FSLIC? You gotta FORCE people in Flood Zones to show proof of Flood Insurance.

Now the program works. Not really well, but it works.

You have no idea how many times I've had to rebut, "Well! I've been here for twenty years and I've never been in a Flood!"

To which I often replied, "I've flown over a hundred times and never been in a Plane Crash. WTF is your point?"

You good people just don't understand Human Nature. You make something like this, something intangible, optional and people just aren't going to buy it much of the time. Certainly not all of the time, but enough to cause the ones of us that do a lot of financial pain.

I thought the Liar in Chief and the dirtbags in the dimocrap party were going for something similar to what the Swiss have. Which is a GOOD system.

But it only took me about a week to figure out that they were lying. Which is what dimocraps do.

They lie.

Here it is......

Whenever we don't take control of something and do it right -- dims will do it for us.

And they don't do anything right. Never have, never will.

Everything they touch turns to shit.

Always has, always will

I suspect I lost most of you after the first sentence or two.

Insurance is really boring

Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 10:17 AM (ZbB1q)

78 If the US had guaranteed incomes, I'd quit working tomorrow. And if that's true, who do you think will be pulling the wagon? Nobody, that's who.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 10:17 AM (YvHmx)

79 18
The problem with liberals and Democrats, birm, is that all their solutions revolve around slavery.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 09:48 AM (YvHmx)


Most profound point i've seen on these threads in awhile.

What is taxation? 50% taxation = 50% slavery.

100% taxation = 100% slavery.

That others are to receive the fruits of your labor is the exact same concept, just to a lesser degree.


Posted by: D-Lamp at August 14, 2014 10:17 AM (Vutl+)

80 #21: aaaah yes, the ol' "people are dying in the streets!" argument. i especially love when it's dusted off now, in particular, after the prog dream of single payer, universal care has been so thoroughly shot down and replaced with nothing less than a disguised insurance company bailout. (well, at least for the meanwhile.)

i guess somehow all those people dying in the streets got up out of their pools of diseased bodily fluids and made it in to see the doc now that they have the privilege of paying higher premiums than before.

Posted by: the cold: the new killing fields at August 14, 2014 10:18 AM (mvuew)

81 I saw the Penultimate Paragraphs open for Elvis Costello back in 1982.

Posted by: Susan Olivia Cuthbertson-Klein at August 14, 2014 10:18 AM (Ks4nX)

82 I didn't spend very long in the individual market (my sister did, but I didn't.)

Were the rules under HIPAA really so unworkable that they had to go?

generally speaking as long as you had continuing coverage you were able to get covered even if you switched insurance.

This seems to me to be a fairly good way to prevent the free rider problem and allow coverage.

If you're not paying long term, it's really not insurance.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:18 AM (HDwDg)

83 " It is in our own interest to have a system that combines the collective power of rich society to provide a catastrophic healthcare insurance system. Just as it is in our interest to educate the citizens. "


Unless you're prepared to step over dying children in the street, it is in our best interest.

The problem we have discussing this is that most people (I'm looking at Drew) don't understand current situation.

First of all, I'm talking about catastrophic. Not everyday care.

When you break it down, it's already a government run single payer. The vast majority of catastrophic cases are being handled under Medicare for the elderly. The next largest segment is being paid for under Medicaid for the poor. Then comes the veterans under the VA.

Only a tiny slice of gainfully employed, well paid, 18 to 64 year olds who get some disease or are involved in an accident are in question here.

That's the reality.

Once everyone accepts the reality (not agree with it or condone it, just accept it as fact), we can discuss what to change from here.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 10:18 AM (u2a4R)

84 The only way to fix this involves a toilet the size of the Grand Canyon, and a leader big enough to flush the damned thing, as unpopular as that mar be.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:19 AM (61Yy5)

85 So. Many. Black. Diamonds! Unreadable - have to read it on the front page where things work better.

ASCII-izer for Ace Commenters
webpage about it linked in nick

I have not had any feedback on this program since I posted it, except early-on seeing Vic remark to someone that it wouldn't do the job, but I don't know if he actually tried it.

(shrug)

Posting this reminder about it because it should work as well for Cobs as for commenters. If Cobs cared about the comment section... and could run my little Windows utility... and if it works as intended... and...

Posted by: mindful webworker - programmer non gratin at August 14, 2014 10:20 AM (nJrHR)

86 Gods of the Copybook Headings, the, return, terror and slaughter - some assembly required.

Posted by: Sporkatus at August 14, 2014 10:21 AM (PqYoC)

87
Roy told me in a phone conversation on Wednesday, defending his position:

"Obamacare is the law of the land, It has been for four years and will be at least for seven years. So, my view has always been that we have to, on the conservative side, contend with that."

"I dont see that as a concession. I see that as the real world."




Ah -- "settled law" and the realpolitik. Makes you feel all snug and Republicany.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 10:21 AM (kdS6q)

88 Blood Diamonds.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:21 AM (aW/1n)

89 64
Re: Guaranteed income



Note I said I'm coming around to it, I'm not there.



I agree it's a terrible idea and won't work any better than what we're doing now in terms of outcomes (I said so in the post).



I'm only open to it *if* we are going to have a welfare state as it being possibly the least bad way to do it.

Posted by: DrewM. at August 14, 2014 10:12 AM (jyUvl)

Okay, thanks for clarifying that.
If you're going to accept the basic premise of a welfare state, then when it comes to health care, might I suggest something along the lines of the Singapore model.
http://healthblog.ncpa.org/medisave-accounts-in-singapore/
It's not free market, it is partly socialism, but it is better than what we have now.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 10:22 AM (9GG/0)

90 It is in our own interest to have a system that
combines the collective power of rich society to provide a catastrophic
healthcare insurance system. Just as it is in our interest to educate
the citizens.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 10:05 AM (u2a4R)


I see some merit in your point, but this should go on the back burner.


Posted by: D-Lamp at August 14, 2014 10:22 AM (Vutl+)

91 Straight flush full of DIAMONDS.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at August 14, 2014 10:22 AM (Y92Nd)

92 Unless you're prepared to step over dying children in the street, it is in our best interest.


oh get over yourself. you are just using liberal scarewords.

if you can't talk about things intelligently, then go back to Kos.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 10:22 AM (9GG/0)

93 It is in our own interest to have a system that combines the collective power of rich society to provide a catastrophic healthcare insurance system.


****


Yep, that describes Obamacare to a "T". All that catastrophic preventive care, and the catastrophic contraception coverage, and the catastrophic need for gender reassignment surgery and the catastrophic (I think you get the point).


Cherry picking a line from Hayek out of context is not a very convincing debate technique. Obamacare, is so far from being a time-limited, resource-limited safety-net catastrophic social insurance plan as to be laughable. The supposed morality of government-provided (and by government I mean 'taxpayer') across the board healthcare does not trump the immorality of outsourcing your own charitable impulses to others.

Posted by: S. Muldoon at August 14, 2014 10:24 AM (NeFrd)

94 Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 10:17 AM (ZbB1q)

Oh we're credential waiving now?! Well my PhD(c) is in Healthcare Ethics, so I'm not exactly "uninformed" about this.

Firstly the flood insurance program is beyond broken. It encourages building in flood zones that likely wouldn't have happened before (because insurance was unaffordable.)

And the point about ERs and the like is partially true, except that this is, in part, the cost of doing business.
Also there's a stigma against hospitals going after people for medical bills.
Now it is true that people who don't have insurance tend to be on the lower income scales (meaning collecting the money will just be harder from a practical math standpoint.) But I'm still not sure this justifies mandatory coverage.

And beyond that, at best it justifies mandatory *catastrophic* coverage. Certainly not what Obamacare did.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:24 AM (HDwDg)

95 72
Is jwest misreading Hayek again? I could have sworn we went through all of this.

Posted by: @JohnTant at August 14, 2014 10:15 AM (eytER)


Hayek's quote was verbatim. Please explain what he really meant.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 10:24 AM (u2a4R)

96 Send the children back to Old Mexico.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:24 AM (aW/1n)

97 AlextheChick, when I saw this thought of you

http://tinyurl.com/onjj5jt

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 14, 2014 10:24 AM (uizHE)

98 These choking rinos, given a chance, would co-opt and fix gun control too. Fuck them, they are more enemy than the obvious leftard statists.

Posted by: maddogg at August 14, 2014 10:24 AM (xWW96)

99 My problem with a "min-come" is that it's just sending a check by another name. More efficient delivery system, same addiction. And for the recipients who decide to spend his entire allotment on crack and hookers, we're still going to end up having some kind of system to feed and house them. The same sentiment - "we can't let people starve" - will drive the same result. A mincome won't convince people to abandon the willfully irresponsible to their fate - it only changes how we give them the money they squander. I'm more inclined to workfare - if we're going to be hostages to compassion the least we can do is make them show up somewhere and do something for the privilege. At least that preserves the reality of "you must do something to get something." It narrows the scope for abuse down to those faking disability. Not a great solution, but better than a "guaranteed" anything. Guaranteed benefits without reciprocation are the most toxic part of the problem.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at August 14, 2014 10:24 AM (QKIQb)

100 Now Drew I'm certain with the right blend of herbs and spices I can make Ogabe shit sandwich taste just like fried chicken.

\\Mitt "COL Sanders" Romney, Esq.

(Closed captioning by pac10077)

Posted by: sven10077 at August 14, 2014 10:25 AM (1s42g)

101
Roy argued that his extensive research found that the primary factor driving up insurance costs is the limitations on what companies can charge older Americans. He said that allowing insurers to charge older Americans six times as much for health insurance as younger Americans (as opposed to Obamacares 3:1 limit) would significantly reduce premiums relative to Obamacare.



Well, good thing the base of the Republican party doesn't skew towards older Americans buying health insurance on the private market.

*ring* Hello? It what? Oh -- dear,

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 10:25 AM (kdS6q)

102 46
until the poor are living the kardashian lifestyle...they are not going
to be satisfied and no matter how much you give them...it won't be
enough and they won't be grateful for it......

Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 14, 2014 10:07 AM (u8GsB)


"Poor" is a social construct and it's completely relative.
If everyone were driving Lambroghinis the "Poor" would be the ones with the older models.


Posted by: D-Lamp at August 14, 2014 10:26 AM (Vutl+)

103 Toby I'm with you. We can drink coffee every morning reading Drew's blogs about how hard he has to work to support guys like us.

There comes a time when one just says to hell with it. I can't stand it, handle it, want to put up with it anymore.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:26 AM (HVff2)

104 Uncle Rick, regardless of how true it is about people gaming the system you are arguing in favor of the argument of a tax on people for being alive.

I'm not seeing the conservative side of that.

Posted by: Gaff at August 14, 2014 10:27 AM (jPS2y)

105 Why would they want to co opt the shit sandwich that is Fredo Care?

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:27 AM (aW/1n)

106 What is needed here is a discussion of what the role of government is. There are far too many people who seem to think that no government is the ideal situation.


Bullshit.

The proper role of government was framed over 200 years ago and has been ignored for roughly the last 75 years or so and turned on its head the past 6 years.

We've been having this conversation for quite a while and you seem to have ignored it.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at August 14, 2014 10:28 AM (0HooB)

107 The problem is a simple one of economics: no entity, neither government nor an insurance company, can pay out more in benefits than it takes in as funding (either taxes if it's a government, or premiums if it's an insurance company). Telling everybody that they can all have $50,000 in treatment and only pay $1000 in premiums to get it is the source of the disaster.

"So what should we do? Ideally we'd repeal ObamaCare and simply let an
insurance market develop without government input or interference."

Agreed. If people want to buy insurance, or opt out of it, or have sufficient resources to pay it out of pocket, that's all voluntary and it all works.

"Short of that, I'm starting to come around to the idea of some sort of 'guaranteed income'."

Hell no. The only way the government can provide a guaranteed income to those who do not earn it is to take it from those who do. PERIOD. To do that, you need to be able to tell me how much of what I earn someone else is morally entitled to, and you can't.

Whether you call it "involuntary charity" or "redistribution of wealth," it's all the same. The problem is government getting into the business of taking from one man and giving it to another in the name of charity, and that's not government's business.

The solution is to do away with Obamacare entirely and leave it up to people to procure for themselves medical care the way they provide all the other essentials of life, life groceries, gasoline, and beer: earn it and buy it. In my experience, Americans are the most charitable people on Earth, and for the truly and legitimately needy, Americans will always make provision - voluntarily. You want there to be a charity for cancer care? Write a check. You want there to be an AIDS hospice? Write a check. You want free medical care for illegal aliens? Write a check. Phone in to a pledge drive. Whatever. And the free market will sustain those aspects that are "the will of the people." Those causes that the people want to thrive, will thrive; those that they don't will close down, all without the intervening bureaucrats to take those decisions out of the hands of free people.

Posted by: Keith Arnold at August 14, 2014 10:28 AM (AWj2Z)

108 Jwest - the communists had plans. The alternative should be no plan. Plans are bad because you cannot plan it. No plans. No plans no plans. I'm not interested in an alternative plan unless it is to undo the first plan.

Posted by: Say at August 14, 2014 10:29 AM (gmeXX)

109 Whenever anyone says they are more Conservative than you and then fellates Karl Marx they are predictably full of shit. TLDR. Uncle Chester.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:29 AM (aW/1n)

110 Do HSA's still have the use-it-or-lose-it component, and can the balance if there is one be rolled forward?

Posted by: fairweatherbill at August 14, 2014 10:30 AM (SNGTs)

111 108 Jwest - the communists had plans. The alternative should be no plan. Plans are bad because you cannot plan it. No plans. No plans no plans. I'm not interested in an alternative plan unless it is to undo the first plan.
Posted by: Say at August 14, 2014 10:29 AM (gmeXX)

Harvey Dent, he has plans. I just...DO things!

Posted by: The Joker at August 14, 2014 10:31 AM (mx5oN)

112 The longer the post, the greater the degree of mental retardation.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:31 AM (aW/1n)

113
Assessing Roys plan from a free market perspective requires first deciding what it should be compared against. The plan concedes a lot of ground to the left when it comes to emphasizing universal health insurance and maintaining key regulations, and it would spend more on subsidizing health insurance in the individual market than the system that existed prior to Obamacare.

On the other hand....

Philip Klein



There is no other hand, you dolt.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 10:31 AM (kdS6q)

114
I finally saw a headline the other day that I thought was the total truth:

"American voters have almost no effect on government policies".

Avik Roy attempting to name solutions to a govt policy is fruitless as well as pointless.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 14, 2014 10:31 AM (w4KwQ)

115
Whenever we don't take control of something and do it right -- dims will do it for us.



And they don't do anything right. Never have, never will.



Everything they touch turns to shit.



Always has, always will



I suspect I lost most of you after the first sentence or two.



Insurance is really boring

Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 10:17 AM (ZbB1q)


You lost me with your usage of words like "Force" and "Control".

You aren't getting out of the "You need to be partially my slave" mentality.


Posted by: D-Lamp at August 14, 2014 10:31 AM (Vutl+)

116 >>106 We've been having this conversation for quite a while and you seem to have ignored it---

WORD.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:31 AM (HVff2)

117 It puts the donation in the basket or else it gets the hose again. Yes it does.

Posted by: Jame Gumb, CEO, Universal Wish Fulfillment, LLC. at August 14, 2014 10:31 AM (68O4K)

118 108 Jwest - the communists had plans.


Conservatives make plans that can work and are paid for. Liberals just assume their good intentions will magically make shit happen.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 10:31 AM (u2a4R)

119 Oh we're credential waiving now?! Well my PhD(c) is in Healthcare Ethics, so I'm not exactly "uninformed" about this.


*****


Credentials, eh? Well, we all can play that game. So, excuse me while I whip this out...


...unzip...





...SPROING!!!

Posted by: S. Muldoon at August 14, 2014 10:31 AM (NeFrd)

120 HSA's are your money. It's just like a savings account except you can only spend it on medical-related expenses.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 10:32 AM (9GG/0)

121 Yeah, I've got to agree with the others on the logical fallacy.

I understand both points of view (not giving in on Obamacare repeal and universal income). But the logic used to criticize Avik Roy's position is being used to support the universal income concept.

Avik Roy would also claim that he would prefer Obamacare to be be gone, but he is proposing how to modify it given the reality that it is here and likely to stay (I'm projecting my belief of what his argument would be, not my own opinions).

I'll also point out that it is silly to think we can just go back to what we had before. The system has been disrupted and can't be returned to what existed in 2008. Just this morning my company jettisoned all the retirees onto Obamacare. No repeal is going to get my company to reverse that decision later.

Posted by: Dave in Fla (is just really, really tired of it all) at August 14, 2014 10:32 AM (jOJ+2)

122 Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 10:17 AM (ZbB1q)

The big flaw in all these arguments is the casual acceptance that we (the country's taxpayers) are required to bailout the floodees, the victims of disease or too many children or of any number of the results of people doing stupid stuff or fate catching up to them.

Once you accept that we(the country's taxpayers) have the obligation to pay for anyone's tragedy then you've accepted the primary premise for socialism at least and communism at worst.

To be truly conservative and remain fiscally sound, EVERYONE PAYS FOR THEMSELVES AND NO ONE HAS TO PAY FOR ANYONE ELSE'S PROBLEMS.

And if for some reason you can't and death is the result, we'll say a prayer at your graveside.

Can't except that? Then you're a socialist. We're just arguing on how much of a socialist you are.

Let evolution be unfettered.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at August 14, 2014 10:32 AM (Avd1N)

123 Posted by: fairweatherbill at August 14, 2014 10:30 AM (SNGTs

Y'all confusing HSA's with "Flex Spending accounts" (which I'd normally call "FSA" but that has a meaning around here.)

The former is carried over from year to year, and was significantly curtailed under obamacare.

The latter is basically a way to get a tax break on medical stuff, and are use it or lose it (many allow 15 months not 12, but basically a year.) The money goes in tax free (pre-tax), but doesn't gain interest or the like.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:32 AM (HDwDg)

124 110 Do HSA's still have the use-it-or-lose-it component, and can the balance if there is one be rolled forward?
Posted by: fairweatherbill at August 14, 2014 10:30 AM (SNGTs)

HSAs roll over. The money's yours. Flex spending accounts are typically use it or lose it.

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 10:32 AM (mx5oN)

125 I have no credentials. I just manage EDI Operations for a HIX...lol

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:32 AM (61Yy5)

126 Oy.

'Anonymous' Hackers Release Name of Officer Suspected of Shooting Unarmed Teenager in Ferguson

http://www.ijreview.com/

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 10:32 AM (IXrOn)

127 Wherever did you get the idea I was waving credentials?

A little thin-skinned, aren't we.

Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 10:33 AM (ZbB1q)

128
'Anonymous' Hackers Release Name of Officer Suspected of Shooting Unarmed Teenager in Ferguson

http://www.ijreview.com/

I know. I fear this isn't gonna turn out too well...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 10:34 AM (9+ccr)

129 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther), Derringer Bandit. at August 14, 2014 10:34 AM (PYAXX)

130 12
Libertarians don't think they have all the answers? Really? They routinely wish problems away or ignore them.
===========
Yup.

A lot of "let's just compromise on this or that major social issue and we'll all have candy and nuts for Christmas" thinking.

Never realizing that it issue itself is not the problem--the only reason the issue is an issue is that the destruction of the conservative position--forged through thousands of years of experimentation, trial and error--stands in the way of totalitarian power.

So, giving up on gay marriage, abortion, single parenthood, drugs, etc. does not make the problem go away--it expands it by giving ever an ever more power to the state.

Posted by: RoyalOil at August 14, 2014 10:34 AM (VjL9S)

131 I know. I fear this isn't gonna turn out too well...
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 10:34 AM (9+ccr)


The entire family will have to go into witness protection.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 10:34 AM (IXrOn)

132 If our President had an abortion, I think it would resemble Ferguson.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:34 AM (61Yy5)

133 I don't have any credentials. But, I slept with a hot babe at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (HVff2)

134 a conservative alternative to ObamaCare

The conservative alternative to ObamaCare:

Burn it down.
Scatter the stones.
Salt the earth where it stood.

You have NO RIGHT to anything someone else must provide or produce.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther), Derringer Bandit. at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (PYAXX)

135 Posted by: S. Muldoon at August 14, 2014 10:31 AM (NeFrd

You're hash is one extra F from great.

Having said that, I was being a smart ass. The appeal to unverifiable authority was an odd way to start the post.

"Listen I know more than all of you because...."
Except WierdDave has been in insurance for a while. AllenG has at least worked with the industry (I forget exactly what he did, he can explain it.)
And I study the industry for a hobby (I really can't call it a "living.")

and that's just the people I remember and doesn't include the doctors and such.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (HDwDg)

136 I sort of miss the old DrewM...the one I could disagree with.

Good post.

And you got such a deal on those diamonds!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (QFxY5)

137 Seminar Trolls from The Retarded Faggot Administration.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (aW/1n)

138
Hayek's quote was verbatim. Please explain what he really meant.

Thing is, you have to read and comprehend the entire book, not just look for one lone passage and try to shoehorn it into your predetermined opinion.

For instance, there is a world of difference between social insurance programs aimed at the truly destitute (which is what Hayek was talking about) and "combining the collective power of a rich society to provide a catastrophic health care insurance system." The latter necessarily (and rather explicily) requires central-level control of that sector, and throughout the entire work Hayek rails against top level control any market.

No, Hayek is talking about minor shoe-money, bread-for-Valjean provisions for the actual destitute, not something that gives the goverment actual control over the market. It's something that's made pretty clear in the entire work.

Posted by: @JohnTant at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (eytER)

139 Sorry tsrblk

Can't figure this site's posting protocols out.

Maybe Ace could take some of that fortune he's got buried in his mayonnaise jar in the back yard and modernize it?

Or maybe I could I could figure out how to quote

Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (ZbB1q)

140 Stand back ladies and gents. I sure hope my credential-sproinging didn't injure anybody. If so, jwest will be glad to pick up your hospital tab so that you don't end up sporinged in the streets in a pool of credential debris.

Posted by: S. Muldoon at August 14, 2014 10:36 AM (NeFrd)

141 Posted by: Uncle Rick

You started your post with "20 years in the insurance industry."

The very first words.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:37 AM (HDwDg)

142 Conservative approaches to this bullshit must remove Government from the equation completely by getting rid of the tax breaks for all this "employer provided" healthcare.

The market will do what it does best if the Government's nose is removed from the tent. there hasn't really been a free market in healthcare in decades.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:37 AM (61Yy5)

143 OT: @BreakingNews

St. Louis police will no longer be involved in policing of Ferguson, Mo., Rep. Lacy Clay, D-Mo., says

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 10:37 AM (v0/PR)

144 I've been listening to pretentious jackasses mutter for longer than 20 years.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:38 AM (aW/1n)

145 testing.

Posted by: monkeytoe at August 14, 2014 10:38 AM (3ZtZW)

146 136 I sort of miss the old DrewM...the one I could disagree with.

Good post.

And you got such a deal on those diamonds!


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August


Probably from some Joo in NYC

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:38 AM (HVff2)

147 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (QFxY5

I liked it until that weird aside about the guaranteed income!

The problem is, I'm not sure any of it is practical. That law is so nested in our system now, I'm not sure how to get it out.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:38 AM (HDwDg)

148 'Anonymous' Hackers Release Name of Officer Suspected of Shooting Unarmed Teenager in Ferguson



The police said that was not the officer involved in the shooting. Ofcourse, that may be bullshit because it was the officer and they're desperately trying to maintain damage control.


Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 10:38 AM (GQ8sn)

149 There will be collapse, plague, famine, and war. People will give anything for security and justice. Then you will realize the silly dreams of the racist old cisgender normative white men you patriarchally call the Founding Fathers were all lies. Four hundred years of imperial slaughter and oppression. The cultural and environmental impact. The exploitation of the poor. All for nothing.

Someday the American Era will be looked at as a second Dark Age.

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (kQfOx)

150 What do I know about diamonds? Don't they come from Antwerp?

Posted by: Turkish at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (mx5oN)

151
Avik Roy Avik 16h

at ingramlaw Its cool, we disagree. You oppose health subsidies for the poor because Freedom. I oppose them for the rich because Freedom.




This guy was going to be Romney's HSS Secretary. *shakes head in wonderment*

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (kdS6q)

152 Diamonds are worthless. They are not even precious.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (aW/1n)

153 So the Left is having a fit over Ferguson and calling it a police state.

I've watched the video.

It's day 4 or 5 of rioting. Racist Black Panthers are out calling explicitly for racial violence against innocent whites. I saw pictures of young kids lighting and throwing molotov cocktails.

How is that supposed to be allowed to happen? Are the Black Panthers supposed to be given free reign to look and burn the city down at night?

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (ZPrif)

154 143 OT: @BreakingNews

St. Louis police will no longer be involved in policing of Ferguson, ---

Send in ISIS that JV team knows how to control a crowd.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (HVff2)

155 Having said that, I was being a smart ass. The appeal to unverifiable authority was an odd way to start the post.


Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (HDwDg)



*****

No worries. I totally got where you were coming from. I've read your commentary for quite a while and consider you generally thoughtful and on point. Your arguments stand on their own merits, but it is nice to have a context for reading.

I, on the other hand, am largely about the fart jokes.

Posted by: S. Muldoon at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (NeFrd)

156 'Anonymous' Hackers Release Name of Officer Suspected of Shooting Unarmed Teenager in Ferguson

=====


Yeah, saw that earlier. I hope his family is safely hidden somewhere.

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (v0/PR)

157 129 AllenG,

You know it just can't be said enough. I love threads like this people keep trying to explain to me that you can in fact pick up shit by the clean side. Party on Allen. You're part of the country looked nice this morning.

Posted by: sven10077 at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (1s42g)

158 My employer had a plan that sounded like a Flex, but now has a HSA. I didn't look into the HSA because I thought it was Flex under a new name. From what I know of these instruments, they would be helpful in paying off deductibles and co-pays. Other than that, what is there useful benefit?

Posted by: fairweatherbill at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (SNGTs)

159 "Preezy" comic now takes a turn on trashing the SCOAMF, by trying to make Hillary look good.

http://tinyurl.com/k3vqdqj

Fallon

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (IXrOn)

160 143 OT: @BreakingNews

St. Louis police will no longer be involved in policing of Ferguson, Mo., Rep. Lacy Clay, D-Mo., says


After last night, that's really a good thing. Lots of coverage on my twitter feed. I couldn't believe that was America...and I know the same tactics could be used one town over against patriots...a few towns over against tea partiers...a couple towns over against pro-life protestors, etc. Last night was a frightening travesty.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:40 AM (61Yy5)

161 By "young kids" I mean teenager/20-somethings -- angry young men were throwing the molotov cocktails.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 10:40 AM (ZPrif)

162 AllenG has at least worked with the industry (I forget exactly what he did, he can explain it.)

AllenG's insurance credentials-

Processed claims for BCBSTX
Pursued / Researched Policy Exemptions (no, we're not paying for your liver cirrhosis caused by alcohol abuse), and researched for Texas Dept. of Insurance complaints for same.
Worked in Health Care IT- specifically at a medical / dental claim clearinghouse.
Worked with COBRA / FSA (health care IT again).
Developed claims processing system for a TPA.


And then there's the stuff I did that was *only* on the periphery of health care.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther), Derringer Bandit. at August 14, 2014 10:40 AM (PYAXX)

163 78
If the US had guaranteed incomes, I'd quit working tomorrow. And if
that's true, who do you think will be pulling the wagon? Nobody, that's
who.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 10:17 AM (YvHmx)


This is why every socialist country collapses on its own wait over the years. The US is headed that way not because it is about 75% Socialist/Fascist. That is why 50%+ are living off of some type of government dole or subsidy. When the US adds more socialism the total of dole suckers will go up.

Posted by: Vic at August 14, 2014 10:41 AM (T2V/1)

164 Drewm,

I don't disagree with what you say except for one word - "conservatives". It is not conservatives who stop fighting it, it is the GOP.

And - you must never confuse the two. The GOP is not conservative. The GOP was never conservative. It was not founded as a conservative party, has never been a conservative party and, based on recent events, is unlikely to ever be a conservative party.

The GOP has had conservative candidates or incumbents, and conservatives have tried to make a home in the GOP. But the GOP is not conservative.

Indeed, the GOP fights conservatives and conservatism much. much more fiercely than the GOP fights the left or the DNC (see, e.g., McDaniels).

Because of this, it is a mistake to believe the GOP will ever close, terminate, or end a gov't program, department, or agency.

Unless and until conservatives confront, battle, and change the Trojan Horse that always defeats us (i.e., the GOP), we will never accomplish anything.

The GOP has always embraced whatever new gov't program the left manages to enact. Every time. Why would you expect it to be different now?

and, both Boehner and McConnell (and others within the GOP) have stated many, many times that they have no intention of repealing Obamacare - only fixing it.

So, how is any of this a surprise?

Posted by: monkeytoe at August 14, 2014 10:41 AM (3ZtZW)

165 Is the news about St. Louis police disengaging good or bad? Leaving because they expect things have petered out or because it's likely to get worse and they want no part of it?

Posted by: Lincolntf at August 14, 2014 10:41 AM (2cS/G)

166 Jwest,

Socking Mary C. to drum up support is no way to win an argument

Since you've already gotten caught recycling debunked ThinkProgress talking points about Hayek and now you're doing it again, I can only surmise that you think everyone else has as shitty a memory as you do.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at August 14, 2014 10:41 AM (V8EAH)

167 Seems to me that government is good at waging wars and building great big stuff. Other than that, they pretty much bungle everything, sooner or later. Too simple?

Posted by: tubal at August 14, 2014 10:41 AM (YEQ2h)

168 Where do people think the votes are going to come from for the "no government at all in health care" option?

There's a reason why libertarians don't win at the ballot box. Because people, by and large, don't support that position.

I AGREE, in the most ideal of worlds, having no government in health care would be great.

But we aren't in that kind of world. There are not only a lot of people who directly benefit from government-run health care, there are also a lot MORE people who actually believe the nonsense that jwest spews, that if government doesn't have a role in health care, "children will die in the street". And they aren't going to be persuaded by Hayekian arguments about well-functioning free-market systems.

So ObamaCare is here to stay for at least the foreseeable future. That's not what I want or what anyone here wants, but that is the reality that we have to contend with.

I don't agree with Roy, though, that we should just tweak it a little bit. Take ObamaCare's idea that people support - everybody should have health insurance (which ObamaCare doesn't actually do, by the way, but that's how it was sold) and use it to institute a Singapore-style system. Everybody is forced to save in a HSA and that is where the money comes from for your health care expenses. You still have Medicaid for the really poor (and trim that back so that it's only for the really poor, not just the kinda-sorta not well off) and you still have Medicare for the old folks. But no more midde-class subsidies and no more third-person payment for every single fucking health care expense, which is just dumb.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 10:41 AM (9GG/0)

169 No, Hayek is talking about minor shoe-money, bread-for-Valjean provisions for the actual destitute, not something that gives the goverment actual control over the market. It's something that's made pretty clear in the entire work.
Posted by: @JohnTant at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (eytER)

Thank you.

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb (Psalm 109:7- 8) at August 14, 2014 10:41 AM (BZAd3)

170 Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 10:38 AM (GQ8sn

Anonymous has so far incorrectly "doxed" the County Police chief (calling him the Fergusson chief) and the Florissant police chief (who isn't involved in this in any way at all).

I pretty much assume they don't know what they're talking about.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:42 AM (HDwDg)

171 It's compassionate.

Posted by: G-Dub at August 14, 2014 10:42 AM (o44nj)

172 @BreakingNews

More: Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon, who will announce St. Louis police taken off duty, has not specified who will take over policing

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 10:42 AM (v0/PR)

173 158 My employer had a plan that sounded like a Flex, but now has a HSA. I didn't look into the HSA because I thought it was Flex under a new name. From what I know of these instruments, they would be helpful in paying off deductibles and co-pays. Other than that, what is there useful benefit?
Posted by: fairweatherbill at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (SNGTs)

It's pre-tax dollars, so you shelter a little income from taxation.

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 10:43 AM (mx5oN)

174 So ... another night of rioting then.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 10:43 AM (ZPrif)

175 And then there's the stuff I did that was *only* on the periphery of health care.


-international man of mystery


-Kinder Surprise Egg trafficking


-blogging



One of these may or may not be true.

Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 10:43 AM (GQ8sn)

176 Posted by: Lincolntf at August 14, 2014 10:41 AM (2cS/G

IMHO, they're finally realizing they are the problem.

And even though I live in a city, it's inside the county and I'd prefer them stop putting my tax dollars at risk.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:43 AM (HDwDg)

177 DARPA killer robots hopefully.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:43 AM (aW/1n)

178 I, on the other hand, am largely about the fart jokes eye-watering puns.

Fixed for accuracy!

Posted by: Waterhouse at August 14, 2014 10:44 AM (0NHQp)

179 More: Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon, who will announce St. Louis police taken off duty, has not specified who will take over policing

Uh...

St. Louis morons? Board up your homes and get out of dodge. Or go to the store TODAY and stock up on ammo. Your governor is about declare martial law.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther), Derringer Bandit. at August 14, 2014 10:44 AM (PYAXX)

180 The GOP has always embraced whatever new gov't
program the left manages to enact. Every time. Why would you expect it
to be different now?



and, both Boehner and McConnell (and others within the GOP) have
stated many, many times that they have no intention of repealing
Obamacare - only fixing it.



So, how is any of this a surprise?

Posted by: monkeytoe
---

Indeed. I have been saying this all along. The Republican party is a support party for the Democrats; their job is to insure Democrats stay in power and to support their agenda.
Full stop.

Posted by: Mrs. Ida Lowry at August 14, 2014 10:44 AM (HVMdp)

181 I don't have any credentials. But, I slept with a hot babe at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (HVff2)


*****



And after all, that in itself is a form of credentials.


Did anybody get sproinged?

Posted by: S. Muldoon at August 14, 2014 10:44 AM (NeFrd)

182 They were chasing folks into neighborhoods and firing tear gas into peoples' yards. Forcing the media to turn off their cameras. Arresting journalists (ok, semi-pro ones from HuffPo and Washpost) and Aldermen. It was out of control - the protests last night were by and large peaceful. There were a couple idiots that tried to light and throw a molotov or two, but that was way after the heavy hand of STL's finest showed up and started pushing people around. They tear gassed a State Senator at one point too yesterday.

Out. Of. Control.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:44 AM (61Yy5)

183 More: Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon, who will announce St. Louis police taken off duty, has not specified who will take over policing
Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 10:42 AM (v0/PR)


it won't matter who's policing

looters gotta loot

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 10:44 AM (IXrOn)

184 I suggest that after ISIS takes control of Ferguson they march right over to Brattleboro. Show her how cisgendered brown men rule

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:45 AM (HVff2)

185
"No, Hayek is talking about minor shoe-money, bread-for-Valjean provisions for the actual destitute, not something that gives the goverment actual control over the market. It's something that's made pretty clear in the entire work."

Posted by: @JohnTant at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (eytER)


No, Hayek wasn't talking about shoe-money.

He was taking catastrophic healthcare (truly insurable risks that few individuals can make adequate provisions) in the same light as providing for the common defense.

That is what government is.

We come together for protection, for commerce, to build infrastructure for the common good.

I would even let poor people use my roads - as long as they stay the fuck out of the left hand lane.

Hayek recognized the proper use of government and it's the central theme of books. If you missed that, you've missed everything.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 10:45 AM (u2a4R)

186 Hacker will claim they are acting in the best interest of everyone, just like Snowden in 3, 2, 1...

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 14, 2014 10:45 AM (OEWRk)

187 Drew: "I agree it's a terrible idea and won't work any better than what we're doing now in terms of outcomes (I said so in the post).

I'm only open to it *if* we are going to have a welfare state as it being possibly the least bad way to do it."

And to be clear, that's what I was agreeing with. I don't think we should be doing any of this shit at all at the federal level because (a) it's flat-out unconstitutional and (b) it doesn't work.

We've convinced ourselves that (a) part isn't really an issue at our own peril. And as long as a politician can buy Group B's votes with Group A's money, who cares if these schemes actually work, amirite?

Posted by: Andy at August 14, 2014 10:45 AM (C/NnJ)

188 I don't have any credentials. But, I slept with a hot babe at a Holiday Inn Express last night.



Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:35 AM (HVff2)




Did your wife find out?







Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 10:45 AM (GQ8sn)

189 You started your post with "20 years in the insurance industry."

The very first words.

UR:
Those were just bona fides, not credential waving.

Much to your chagrin.

Bet you were looking forward to one-upping my credentials with your credentials, huh?



The Swiss system works. The Flood Insurance system works better than the one we had before it.

Yes, people do build in floodplains, but they pay for it through FEMA Flood Rates.

This is what government is for.... To protect people, to get people to do things they wouldn't always do, to make them take their freaking garbage to the dump, to mow their lawns, to drive on the correct side of the street, to support their children, to honor contracts, to.......

Conservatism and Libertarianism are not the same.

We need government to do its job. If Conservatives don't do it, liberal dirtbags will.

How you liking that ACA?

Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 10:46 AM (ZbB1q)

190 Hasn't been any looting of any significance whatsoever since the first night. There is lots of unedited video of how it went down yesterday. Check it out and form an opinion is all that I'd ask.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:46 AM (61Yy5)

191 And ze Barrel I go...

Catch everyone later.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 14, 2014 10:46 AM (OEWRk)

192 Did anybody get sproinged?

Posted by: S. Muldoon at August 14, 2014

I heard the zip and got the hell out of the way. So no, I wasn't sproinged. But, thanks for asking

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:47 AM (HVff2)

193 If some states want to make having catastrophic health insurance a pre-requisite for driving a car, like they already require having auto insurance, I have zero issue with that idea. More power to them, because if the people object they'll elect a new governor and a new legislature and get that fixed.

I object mightily to Washington telling states what the hell to do. And my blood boils when Washington tries telling me what the hell to do, and then sics Lois Lerner on me to make it happen. Fuck you Progs.

Posted by: MTF at August 14, 2014 10:47 AM (LISuA)

194 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther), Derringer Bandit. at August 14, 2014 10:44 AM (PYAXX)

:shrug:

He can try. At best he can do it for the area in question.

Anything past that and he won't be governor by the end of the week.

he's freckles and powerless has been since his election. He only persists because of a shitty Missouri GOP.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:47 AM (HDwDg)

195 @TheAnonMessage 5m

@stlcountypd You are pathetic. Verify/Stay silent or deny and provide real name.


@stlcountypd 2m

@TheAnonMessage We already have. You may have missed the message. Bryan P. Willman is not even an officer with St. Louis County or Ferguson.

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 10:47 AM (v0/PR)

196 consumes massive amounts of resources

Sweet, sweet billable hours.

Posted by: I95/495 QuadOval EyePatch UnLtd. at August 14, 2014 10:47 AM (DL2i+)

197
Roys plan proposes expanding the division of the Federal Trade Commission, which litigates anti-trust suits, that deals with hospital mergers to thwart further anticompetitive activity.

NatRev


Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 10:48 AM (kdS6q)

198 Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:26 AM (HVff2)

What are you talking about?

Posted by: DrewM. at August 14, 2014 10:48 AM (jyUvl)

199 They were chasing folks into neighborhoods and firing tear gas into peoples' yards.
--

The street where the rioters were had homes right up against it. From what I've read, people were shooting from within the crowd -- at cops, at the police helicopter. Tear gas is how you disperse a crowd.

Tear gas in a crowd at night looks dramatic. People running away from the tear gas looks dramatic -- it's how it's supposed to work.

And looks like the tear gas worked. It dispersed the crowd without injuring the people in the crowd.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 10:49 AM (ZPrif)

200 Unless you're prepared to step over dying children in the street, it is in our best interest.

I remember back when Kennedy was president, I could literally walk from store to store downtown without ever stepping on the sidewalk because of the wretched urchins coughing up their last breaths.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 10:50 AM (YvHmx)

201 Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 10:46 AM (ZbB1q)

Why did you murder those straw men?! WHY!!

FEMA flood rates are lower than needed to break even.

That's why a) they've been taking money from general funds and b) they've been expanding flood zones (to get more low risk people in the pool.)

No reason to believe a government health insurance system wouldn't suffer the same fate.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:50 AM (HDwDg)

202
This is what government is for.... To protect people, to get people to do things they wouldn't always do, to make them take their freaking garbage to the dump, to mow their lawns, to drive on the correct side of the street, to support their children, to honor contracts, to.......
Posted by: Uncle Rick




You're a loony.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 10:50 AM (kdS6q)

203 199 From what I've read, people were shooting from within the crowd -- at cops, at the police helicopter.

Certainly no evidence of that if you watch the livestreams and videos last night.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:50 AM (61Yy5)

204 >>>Did your wife find out?
EC
--------
Why EC she was the hot babe!

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:51 AM (HVff2)

205
At WZ:

The US administration has halted a shipment of Hellfire aerial
anti-armor missiles to Israel, the Wall Street Journal reported on
Wednesday, citing government sources.

The sources noted that Israel had requested the transfer of
ammunitions directly from the Pentagon, without receiving the approval
of the White House or State Department officials.

Apparently they didn't like Israel using artillery instead of missiles so they halted missile shipments, or something.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 14, 2014 10:51 AM (w4KwQ)

206 Is jwest misreading Hayek again? I could have sworn we went through all of this.
Posted by: @JohnTant at August 14, 2014 10:15 AM (eytER)


Is it a day ending in "day"?

Posted by: steveegg at August 14, 2014 10:51 AM (o44nj)

207 Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:44 AM (61Yy5)

Do you have some sourcing for that?

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 10:51 AM (mx5oN)

208 First he came for the strawmen. And then he touched him in his special place.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:51 AM (aW/1n)

209 He can try. At best he can do it for the area in question.

I'm just sayin'.

If you relieve the entire PD, the only thing available to the governor is either the State Police or the National Guard. There's no reason to believe the State Police would be any more able to keep the peace than the local PD.

Which indicates National Guard. Which indicates martial law- at least for STL and environs.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther), Derringer Bandit. at August 14, 2014 10:51 AM (PYAXX)

210 Why EC she was the hot babe!

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:51 AM (HVff2)


Hope you didn't blow out your knee!
Again!



Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 10:52 AM (GQ8sn)

211
"Like HSAs. The idiots outlawed those. Having an HSA actually
encouraged shopping for the best deals and I found myself forcing a
doctor's office to deal with me ala carte on some blood work tests."

Correct. The way to make a ConservativeCare, you would:
1. Repeal all mandates on care.
1b. corrolary: Insurance would be insurance for catastrophic care, not routine care; that's not insurance but a 'service contract'. service contracts may make sense, but its wrong to call it insurance. Its not the same thing.

2. Introduce market mechanisms and choice.

3. Get price information to customers /users.

HSAs + catastrophic insurance + HMO-style service contracts do all of the above.

"It is in our own interest to have a system that combines the
collective power of rich society to provide a catastrophic healthcare
insurance system. Just as it is in our interest to educate the
citizens."

It is also in our interest to recognize that it will be popular enough that even if we didn't fully agree with that interest, the majority WILL. the fact is that Medicaid was created decades ago to fill that need, it doesnt do it well yet no Republican will ever repeal it. Obamacare is the culmination of that desire. flawed? Yes, BUT IT WON VOTES. And why not? The 30-40% of the populace who benefit from it are being asked to get someone else to pay for it.

In reality, we COULD has a system that is 85% private-run health care and 15% govt subsidized for-those-in-need. Today, it is > 50% Govt run and rising. The progressive dream is 100% govt run.
Why? Because ProfitAndAnythingBigCorpIsEvil etc. That's NOT an inevitable outcome of a system with a safety net, but it is if we conceded the field to the liberals on design of a system.

So while Avik Roy's effort is fraught with danger, the intent and the effort is understandable. "Let them eat cake" is nto a viable political position.

"but at least they dont pretend to have all the answers in the face of decades of evidence to the contrary. "

That's bizarrely wrong. Avik Roy is in that position, saying "here's the least bad thing we can do in our situation" Libertarians are in la-la land saying "Nope, that won't work you wuss, let's blow it up and re-create the govt of 1805 on the assumption that a society of people where TMZ is popular can handle 100% freedom and 0% coddling. That's SO MUCH MORE REALISTIC."




Posted by: Keep Calm Cruz On at August 14, 2014 10:52 AM (wT9UL)

212 >> Yes, people do build in floodplains, but they pay for it through FEMA Flood Rates.

No hell they don't. http://onforb.es/1cH7TBy

"The Congressional Research Service figured that the government charges about one-third of the market rate for flood insurance."

These below-market rates are subsidized by the taxpayer. If people had to pay the market rate, there'd be a lot less building in floodplains.

Posted by: Andy at August 14, 2014 10:52 AM (C/NnJ)

213 Seems to me that government is good at waging wars and building great big stuff. Other than that, they pretty much bungle everything, sooner or later. Too simple?

Waging wars but not winning them, yeah, we're getting pretty good at that now that diversity is the real strength of the Armed Forces.

And NASA is now the Department of Flying Carpets or something.

Hmm, I'm not really seeing much of anything this clown car of an administration is good at.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at August 14, 2014 10:52 AM (0HooB)

214 I watched the video. It's cops dispersing a crowd with teargas.

I guess you can argue the cops should just stand there and let molotov cocktails be thrown at them and let people shoot at them from the crowd and let the Black Panthers just own and terrorize the streets of Ferguson until they get bored and go home.

But once the order to disperse the crowd is given -- yeah, you get dramatic video of teargas smoke and people running from it, that's how teargas works, that's the purpose of teargas.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 10:53 AM (ZPrif)

215 This is what government is for.... To protect people, to get people to do things they wouldn't always do, to make them take their freaking garbage to the dump, to mow their lawns, to drive on the correct side of the street, to support their children, to honor contracts, to.......

No. Government is to protect me from my neighbor stealing my spear, killing me with it, then taking my woman and my stuff.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther), Derringer Bandit. at August 14, 2014 10:53 AM (PYAXX)

216 158
My employer had a plan that sounded like a Flex, but now has a HSA. I
didn't look into the HSA because I thought it was Flex under a new name.
From what I know of these instruments, they would be helpful in paying
off deductibles and co-pays. Other than that, what is there useful
benefit?

Posted by: fairweatherbill at August 14, 2014 10:39 AM (SNGTs)

The HSA is what is know as a catastrophic account. You must have catastrophic health insurance, IOW you pay 100% of costs up to $5000. When you reach 5K then your insurance pays the rest. This type of insurance is typically a lot cheaper than other.
With the HSA you put away uo to 6K in it and you pay your 100% part (and any other stuff not covered) until you reach the $5K amount. You can NOT get a HSA unless you have this type of insurance.

Posted by: Vic at August 14, 2014 10:53 AM (T2V/1)

217 Government is not a garden, neat and managed. It is a forest or a jungle. The trees grow and grow endlessly. They overlap, and interfere, and compete for resources. It is chaos in slow motion. Under no circumstances do they cut back. The only way the dead wood is cleared is if an external agent clear cuts the forest, or a spark causes it to burn to the ground. There is logic to Let It Burn.

Posted by: despair at August 14, 2014 10:53 AM (c/UgA)

218
Unless you're prepared to step over dying children in the street, it is in our best interest.
jwest

I remember back when Kennedy was president, I could literally walk from store to store downtown without ever stepping on the sidewalk because of the wretched urchins coughing up their last breaths.
Posted by: toby928(C)




I recall the dark days before Obamacare started up -- 2013. Packs of wild dogs roaming the hallways, snatching dying babies from their weeping mother's arms.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 10:54 AM (kdS6q)

219 Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:43 AM (HDwDg)

Congratulations!

(you do realize that you're a Father right NOW?)

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at August 14, 2014 10:54 AM (Avd1N)

220
>>>>>There will be collapse, plague, famine, and war.

Collapse rides a blue horse. Its in the Bible.

Posted by: Bigby's Steering Hands at August 14, 2014 10:54 AM (3ZtZW)

221 All right boys and girls- I've got to finish my coffee and head off to clean some of the dead and dying destitute detritus off the streets. Fortunately they are mostly piled up right outside the ER, so we don't have far to scoop them. At least when they pile up outside like that they're not clogging up the waiting room.

Thanks to O-care our waiting times have been reduced to zero. Simple fix- we have plans to demolish the waiting room.

Posted by: S. Muldoon at August 14, 2014 10:54 AM (NeFrd)

222 Hey Rick, how about FEMA goosing the recently re-drawn flood zones putting people into flood planes that don't exist and making new people pay for flood insurance they don't and have never needed?

Let me guess 'duhhh, I never heard about that!' it was on this fucking blog months ago. But 20 years in the insurance business you've never seen insurance & gov' conspiring to fuck people before I'm sure right?

Posted by: Gaff at August 14, 2014 10:54 AM (jPS2y)

223 Blast from the past! Daily Caller (2011) : "White House met with three Romney advisors to draft Obamacare". Roy is not one of the three advisers. I'm pretty sure he joined Mitt, Inc. for the 2012 campaign.

LINK: http://preview.tinyurl.com/3ssjsmn

Battlefield prep for the new and improved MITT 2016 v. 14.56?


Posted by: mrp at August 14, 2014 10:55 AM (JBggj)

224 Certainly no evidence of that if you watch the livestreams and videos last night.
--
Wow, maybe not everything was caught on the few videos you personally watched. The police reported that their helicopter was shot at multiple times.

Basing all of your opinions on a couple short videos seems silly. There are other facts in the world that might be important.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 10:55 AM (ZPrif)

225 198 Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:26 AM (HVff2)

What are you talking about?

Posted by: DrewM. at


Drew, you know I usually agree with you. But, your thinking out loud of guaranteed incomes is sad. Basically what I am talking about is that you can work and support me and Toby while we are drinking coffee. Because we won't be working we'll let you do that for us. Thanks for the check Drew. Keep em coming.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:55 AM (HVff2)

226 198 Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:26 AM (HVff2)

What are you talking about?

Posted by: DrewM. at


Drew, you know I usually agree with you. But, your thinking out loud of guaranteed incomes is sad. Basically what I am talking about is that you can work and support me and Toby while we are drinking coffee. Because we won't be working we'll let you do that for us. Thanks for the check Drew. Keep em coming.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:55 AM (HVff2)

227 But once the order to disperse the crowd is given


hickory shampoos follow?

Posted by: rickb223 at August 14, 2014 10:55 AM (0Um7l)

228 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther), Derringer Bandit. at August 14, 2014 10:51 AM (PYAXX]


Whoa there. Slow down.

One must first understand the mess that is "The St. Louis municipal system!" (TM)

The area in question is Ferguson, which is a city within the county.
The county cops came in to assist at the request of Ferguson. The State Police (Highway Patrol) was already also involved.

Relieving the county police support in Ferguson would not affect the Ferguson department. Nor for that matter would it affect the county police patrolling in the rest of the unincorporated areas.

At that still leaves something like 90 incorporated areas with their own forces. If he tries to affect those he'll meet a wall of resistance like he's never seen before.

He is not well liked in the county by...well anyone.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:55 AM (HDwDg)

229 if you truly loved me, you'd let me suffer the consequences of my own foolish choices.

Posted by: no collectivist ever at August 14, 2014 10:56 AM (68O4K)

230 SCOAMF won't return to DC until Sunday.

Posted by: Carol at August 14, 2014 10:56 AM (sj3Ax)

231
Yes, people do build in floodplains, but they pay for it through FEMA Flood Rates.


Come on, you really aren't serious, you're just messing with people for fun.

As if everybody didn't know that those flood rates are highly subsidized by every taxpayer in the nation. Since we are having fun, how bout you giving me all your money and assests. Sounds like good govt to me!

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 14, 2014 10:56 AM (w4KwQ)

232 and on that note, must leave the office.
don't ferguson the place you morons.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at August 14, 2014 10:56 AM (HVff2)

233 "There are not
only a lot of people who directly benefit from government-run health
care, there are also a lot MORE people who actually believe the nonsense
that jwest spews, that if government doesn't have a role in health
care, "children will die in the street". And they aren't going to be
persuaded by Hayekian arguments about well-functioning free-market
systems.


So ObamaCare is here to stay for at least the
foreseeable future. That's not what I want or what anyone here wants,
but that is the reality that we have to contend with.



Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 10:41 AM (9GG/0)"


The point is that it doesn't matter what political reality is. We all know that political reality doesn't always mesh with reality reality. And even in the type of concessions that either you or Roy offer, it's unsustainable out of the gate and highly susceptible to mission creep.
That's reality. If your position is that only political reality can be dealt with, then why not adopt the Democrat position? Because they do a much better job at winning the political reality.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at August 14, 2014 10:56 AM (V8EAH)

234 hickory shampoos follow?

Posted by: rickb223 at August 14, 2014 10:55 AM (0Um7l)


Wooden baton massage.

Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 10:56 AM (GQ8sn)

235

No, Hayek wasn't talking about shoe-money.

He was taking catastrophic healthcare (truly insurable risks that few individuals can make adequate provisions) in the same light as providing for the common defense.

That is what government is.

We come together for protection, for commerce, to build infrastructure for the common good.

I would even let poor people use my roads - as long as they stay the fuck out of the left hand lane.

Hayek recognized the proper use of government and it's the central theme of books. If you missed that, you've missed everything.


Have you read the book? The entire thing? Or is your exposure limited to this one paragraph?

After all, Hayek did say:


But there are strong arguments against a single scheme of state insurance; and there seems to be an overwhelming case against free health service for all. From what we have seen of such schemes, it is probable that their inexpediency will become evident in the countries that have adopted them, although political circumstances make it unlikely that they can ever be abandoned, not that they have been adopted. One of the strongest arguments against them is, indeed, that their introduction is the kind of politically irrevocable measure that will have to be continued, whether it proves a mistake or not.


You are trying to make Hayek's limited statement into an overbroad one. His argument for a government role is limited to those areas where a free market wouldn't be as efficient. Common defense is not something a free market can provide, at least not provide well. But in the health market, a free market can do (and, in fact does) a better job than a top-down government-provided program. That you are trying to apply Hayek's argument for a minor crumbs-for-the-masses social program to an overarching "common defense" theme for state-provided insurance tells me it's you who is missing something.

Hell, Hayek would even say that if private charities would probably do a better job of providing for the destitute than government would, being that such a government program is also a "politically irrevocable" measure.



Posted by: @JohnTant at August 14, 2014 10:57 AM (eytER)

236 >>>15 remember when the gop was all for the full repeal of obamacare?
Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 14, 2014 09:46 AM (u8GsB)>>>

No.

Posted by: gm at August 14, 2014 10:57 AM (K0tm3)

237 They tear gassed a State Senator at one point too yesterday.


Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:44 AM (61Yy5)

Okay....I get it. That is bad.

But they tear gassed a state senator!

That's awesome!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 14, 2014 10:58 AM (QFxY5)

238 Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 10:53 AM (ZPrif

catch 22 though.

People are specifically coming to antagonize the cops to generate controversy.

Remove the hyper militarized police force is the best play.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 10:58 AM (HDwDg)

239 Royal - I'll agree to a point as a fi-con leaning small l libertarian. There's a tendency to think that just turning things over to the market will make the problem go away. Many are more willing to "get the government out of your life" when it comes to prohibitions but want it to keep paying for stuff. You can't "get the government out of marriage" without accepting the consequences that you've opened up a whole new world for child support and alimony. I support that whole painful exercise because our society has opted for "love is the answer" marriage standards and won't stuff the djinni back in the bottle - but agree we were better off not "evolving" in this direction.

Hayek was upset that free market classical libs were calling themselves "conservatives" when it sounds so "reactionary" but even before I worried about what to call myself politically in the Reagan era I was saying we shouldn't throw out ten thousand years of field-tested knowledge and experimentation because someone at a liberal arts college thinks they have a better idea - see the Great Society Brain Trust, etc...

I don't see how you can legislatively solve or effectively limit gay marriage, single parenthood or drugs but I recognize there's more to the problem than saying "get government out" and walking away. You have to rebuild the extra-governmental social net like churches, communities, families and give them the freedom to operate. You can't give people the freedoms but have government absorb the costs of their bad choices (aid for single moms, etc). As for abortion I'm strongly pro-life but giving it back to the states is a compromise I'll accept, and only because I don't think a national consensus large enough to support an amendment to the Constitution is possible. I'd vote for it - a baby's right to life outweighs the mother's nine-month commitment in 90% of situations - but where the divide is that deep between Red and Blue, we should let people vote with their feet and choose what kind of culture and value system they want to live in state by state.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at August 14, 2014 10:58 AM (QKIQb)

240
>>>>consumes massive amounts of resources

*crushes beer can on forehead*

Posted by: Beldar at August 14, 2014 10:59 AM (3ZtZW)

241 They tear gassed a Al Jaqueda news crew.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 10:59 AM (aW/1n)

242 Why? Because ProfitAndAnythingBigCorpIsEvil etc. That's NOT an
inevitable outcome of a system with a safety net, but it is if we
conceded the field to the liberals on design of a system.
==========
More like "Government Employee Unions'. With memberships in the tens of millions.

Posted by: mrp at August 14, 2014 10:59 AM (JBggj)

243 More: Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon, who will announce St. Louis police taken off duty, has not specified who will take over policing
Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 10:42 AM (v0/PR)

blue helmets? (UN)

Posted by: willow at August 14, 2014 10:59 AM (nqBYe)

244 Send in the Clones.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 11:00 AM (aW/1n)

245 Ah, the D-Lamp brought the comment over! I get to trounce on it in a current thread? (Forgive the O/T-ness, fellow Horde, I need the exercise.)

While there is something to be said about your suggestion of defensive politicization of every portion of our lives, I can sum up what I believe to be the most cogent response as follows:

PPPHHHBBBTTT.

Seriously? You really want us to become just like them? You really want us to adopt their philosophies of life?

That's what they're trying to make us do, you blithering idiot.

It is possible to identify them and root them out without becoming hyperpoliticized. It's possible to even get others in on the act without realizing what's going on: "Cripes, what is with these idiots in the media? I swear they're in on the scam--can't we get some honest reporting here?" Do it right and the contrast between the nice folks just tryin' to live their lives and enjoy their time on this here Earth (us) and those humorless control freaks that want to make it illegal to be happy (them) and the tables will, in time, turn.

Y'know...what they did to us. In other words, we already know it works.

So lighten up, Francis, if you're going to go tilting at windmills, do it with a quip, a smile, and some style! You might even find yourself taking down a giant or two that way without everyone thinking you're an asshole!

Posted by: Brother Cavil at August 14, 2014 11:00 AM (rt3TY)

246 200 I remember back when Kennedy was president, I could
literally walk from store to store downtown without ever stepping on the
sidewalk because of the wretched urchins coughing up their last
breaths.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 10:50 AM (YvHmx)


Yeah I get a kick out of these statements from the uneducated with regard to relatively modern programs:
-If we don't keep all these anti-drug laws we will have addicts crawling out of the woodwork. My response, so why didn't we have all these addicts in 1900 before any of the drug laws?
-If we roll back SS/Medicare old people will be dying in the streets. So why were old people not dying in the streets in 1920?
If we don't have SNAP/etc children will starve. So why were not children starving during the 1950 recession?

Posted by: Vic at August 14, 2014 11:00 AM (T2V/1)

247 Back to training class. Bbl.

Posted by: rickb223 at August 14, 2014 11:00 AM (0Um7l)

248 Do you have some sourcing for that?

Best way to review the evening is the livestream feeds on my twitter timeline thingy. The vine videos are from Alderman Antonio French. I'm @akula_51 on there. I'll be covering it again tonight I fear. This was all as it happened unedited footage - I have 3 monitors in my development environment so was able to keep up with 2-3 livestreams concurrently all evening. Fox2 had a reporter hidden who kept his camera running as well. Arresting the PuffHo and Pravda on the Potomac guy is linked everywhere. They were reportedly still trying to hold the Alderman for a 24h hold when I went to sleep.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:00 AM (61Yy5)

249 There's quite the flame war over at Hot air about the two "reporters?" "arrested" in Ferguson. Quite entertaining...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:01 AM (9+ccr)

250 The only way to repeal Obaaamacare is to enforce Obaaamacare--word for word, line by line.

No fixes, no tweeks, no exceptions, no exemptions, no forbearance, no delays--100%, all-out enforcement.

And do NOTHING MORE.

No stupid fucking lawsuit--just a one paragraph spending bill for HHS,IRS, etc.: "You will enforce each and every law and regulation as per the deadlines set in ACA. Upon proof of full compliance, the remaining 50% of funding will be restored."

Posted by: RoyalOil at August 14, 2014 11:01 AM (VjL9S)

251 I cried my eyes out everyday stepping over women and childrens bodies in the streets , before Obamacare came online, Thank G-d! 4obamacare!

Posted by: willow at August 14, 2014 11:01 AM (nqBYe)

252 They gassed one state senator and one camera crew. They ought to be fined for under-performance.

Posted by: fairweatherbill at August 14, 2014 11:01 AM (SNGTs)

253 252 They gassed one state senator and one camera crew. They ought to be fined for under-performance

Agreed...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:02 AM (9+ccr)

254 222
Hey Rick, how about FEMA goosing the recently re-drawn flood zones
putting people into flood planes that don't exist and making new people
pay for flood insurance they don't and have never needed?



Let me guess 'duhhh, I never heard about that!' it was on this
fucking blog months ago. But 20 years in the insurance business you've
never seen insurance gov' conspiring to fuck people before I'm
sure right?

Posted by: Gaff at August 14, 2014 10:54 AM (jPS2y)


My MIL got hit by that. Guess what they had recently had a few back to back hurricanes and were broke. They needed a lot more people paying into the system.

Posted by: Vic at August 14, 2014 11:02 AM (T2V/1)

255 237 Okay....I get it. That is bad.

But they tear gassed a state senator!

That's awesome!


It was a priceless moment when she broke into the Police Chief's press conference to ask if she would be gassed again that night. After that she reminded him she was *his* elected official...lol.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:02 AM (61Yy5)

256 Retards. Kristophr's better plan:

repeal Obamacare, all of it.

Eliminate all employer and employee tax breaks for health insurance, and forbid employer provision of same.

Allow any insurer to cross state lines.

Allow any pricing scheme, including higher prices for higher risk groups.

Tort reform.

Allow hospitals to perform triage without getting sued, and to send charity cases to charity hospitals.

Require government run charity hospitals to report illegals.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:03 AM (0zVEV)

257 Hell, Hayek would even say that if private charities would probably do a better job of providing for the destitute than government would, being that such a government program is also a "politically irrevocable" measure.

OCare was opposed by some 60% of the public when it was shoved down the country's throat and has become even more unpopular since its rollout.

I don't think it'd be hard to repeal. If we actually had an opposition party that had the cojones to point out some of the negative impacts of it, it'd get repealed in just a couple of months.

Always remember this: Anything the Government has done, the Government can undo.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at August 14, 2014 11:03 AM (0HooB)

258 Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:02 AM (61Yy5

She's actually not though.

She's from the Ucity district.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 11:03 AM (HDwDg)

259 what reason was given for detaining the 2 journalists at MickeyDs?

were they rioting with the crowd> looting?

i actually do worry about the ability to report the truth.
unfortunately the ability to does not mean it happens.

Posted by: willow at August 14, 2014 11:03 AM (nqBYe)

260 Looks like the gov is just gonna let Ferguson go to the wolves and hope nothing bad happens.

Well, hopefully the rioters get bored and go home. Meh, what's a few nights of terror for the citizens, especially the 30% of Ferguson who are white, as the Black Panthers control the streets and scream for racial violence.

If an angry mob of whites led by the KKK took over a town's streets how many days would we let them loot and burn and throw molotov cocktails while the 30% of locals who were black hid in their basements, terrified to go out on the street? Would we use teargas to disperse the KKK on their 3rd, 4th, 5th night?

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:04 AM (ZPrif)

261 But they tear gassed a state senator!

That's awesome!

It was a priceless moment when she broke into the Police Chief's press conference to ask if she would be gassed again that night. After that she reminded him she was *his* elected official...lol.

I'd like to know why anyone would be so stupid as to join the mobs. Yeah, Don't answer....

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:04 AM (9+ccr)

262 258 She's from the Ucity district.

That makes it even better. Not sure if *he* knew that.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (61Yy5)

263 My MIL got hit by that. Guess what they had recently had a few back to back hurricanes and were broke. They needed a lot more people paying into the system.

Alternately, they need to stop rebuilding in disaster-prone areas. You know, not forcing others to subsidize your choice of building location.

Just spittballin', mind you.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (rt3TY)

264
There's quite the flame war over at Hot air about the two "reporters?" "arrested" in Ferguson. Quite entertaining...
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink!




The unnecessary Noah Rothman boo hooing squishy tears again, I see.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (kdS6q)

265 Do they have video of the state senator being brought to justice?

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (aW/1n)

266 "Roys plan proposes expanding the division of the Federal Trade
Commission, which litigates anti-trust suits, that deals with hospital
mergers to thwart further anticompetitive activity."



Nothing like expanding government to increase competition.


Honestly, we've either got too many conservatives that don't know what a conservative position is, or don't know that they're progressives.


Posted by: Burn the Witch at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (V8EAH)

267 Not to mention, I'm not sure if you have to live in Ferguson to be part of the Ferguson PD. She may know where he lives...does her district extend into Ladue and/or Creve Coeur?

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (61Yy5)

268 Healthcare is a collection if products and services.

Somebody has to pay for them.

Insurance exists to mitigate risks.

Insurance also needs to be purchased by somebody.

I have no obligation to pay for someone else's healthcare or insurance.

Stop stealing from me to buy votes and soothe your need to plan and control.

Stop stealing from me.

Posted by: eman at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (5PIzd)

269 The unnecessary Noah Rothman boo hooing squishy tears again, I see.

Yeah. What's up with him?

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:06 AM (9+ccr)

270 Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (61Yy5)

AFAIK it's the same one whose been around holding up Jay Nixon pictures saying he's abandoned the blacks.

And from what I've read she's from Ucity.

The alderman in question is a St. Louis *city* alderman.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 11:06 AM (HDwDg)

271 More: Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon, who will announce St. Louis police taken off duty, has not specified who will take over policing

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 10:42 AM (v0/PR)



blue helmets? (UN)

Posted by: willow at August 14, 2014 10:59 AM (nqBYe)


*Scotch-Russian accent*
I give them...*chews food*...one chance in three.


Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 11:07 AM (GQ8sn)

272 I am not Jwest and never have been.

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at August 14, 2014 11:07 AM (kQfOx)

273 Posted by: Brother Cavil at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (rt3TY)

The government doesn't have the right to tell where I can or cannot build my home.

I also do not have the right to demand compensation when I demonstrate blind, drooling stupidity and build on a fucking flood plain.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 14, 2014 11:07 AM (QFxY5)

274 Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (61Yy5

Police chief says he's lived in "North County" his whole life.

Ucity is pretty far from that down near the St. Louis City.

It's possible they overlap (we only have 28 state senate districts) but i'd be stunned if they did.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 11:07 AM (HDwDg)

275 Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at August 14, 2014 11:07 AM (kQfOx)

You're one of them Jooo agitators.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (Leftist anti-Semite) at August 14, 2014 11:07 AM (QFxY5)

276 How can that God awful McDonald's food in that nice restaurant?

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 11:08 AM (aW/1n)

277 This is also the gov punishing the city, right? They'll have to either let the rioters and Black Panthers control the streets, or pay overtime for all their cops. Not sure they even have the manpower. Thought I read they only have 50-55 cops on the force. Not enough to control a mob. A mob that will probably be bigger tonight thanks to the media screaming for blood.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:08 AM (ZPrif)

278 263 Alternately, they need to stop rebuilding in
disaster-prone areas. You know, not forcing others to subsidize your
choice of building location.



Just spittballin', mind you.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (rt3TY)

My MIL is an area that to my knowledge has NEVER been flooded. If it was left up to me I would eliminate the entire flood insurance program. It was put in place for the real-estate speculators anyway.

Posted by: Vic at August 14, 2014 11:08 AM (T2V/1)

279 "After last night, that's really a good thing. Lots
of coverage on my twitter feed. I couldn't believe that was
America...and I know the same tactics could be used one town over
against patriots...a few towns over against tea partiers...a couple
towns over against pro-life protestors, etc. Last night was a
frightening travesty.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 10:40 AM (61Yy5)"
What I saw were disorganized mobs with no leadership. Police that are used to dealing with unarmed or lightly armed opposition.
I saw nothing that this veteran of asymmetric warfare could not deal against. These protesters had no discipline and no purpose other than the protest itself.
What is really getting me down is all the eeroreism floating around.

Posted by: GMB (Evil) Steadfast SoCon at August 14, 2014 11:09 AM (e5dKk)

280
Nothing like expanding government to increase competition.
Posted by: Burn the Witch



Also in the plan, more work visas for foreign medical workers. Because there's nothing like expanding the labor pool relative to a fixed number of jobs to increase employment, wages and government tax revenues.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 11:09 AM (kdS6q)

281 The government doesn't have the right to tell where I can or cannot build my home.

I also do not have the right to demand compensation when I demonstrate blind, drooling stupidity and build on a fucking flood plain.


Word. Build where you like, just don't ask me to help foot the bill for the fourth rebuild.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at August 14, 2014 11:09 AM (rt3TY)

282 Stop stealing from me.
Posted by: eman at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (5PIzd)

Amen

Posted by: fairweatherbill at August 14, 2014 11:09 AM (SNGTs)

283 Honestly, we've either got too many conservatives
that don't know what a conservative position is, or don't know that
they're progressives.




Posted by: Burn the Witch
--Indeed, one of the main reasons the statist works to distort language so much. To deceive and it works.
Like how people thing Republicans = conservative.
A little basic knowledge is a good thing.
All we need do is to go back to using the constitution for a change. Healthcare run by the federal government is not there. As most of the things the federal government does, not there.

Posted by: Mrs. Ida Lowry at August 14, 2014 11:10 AM (HVMdp)

284 Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:05 AM (

Hah!
and I am stunned, gerrymanding created a mostly straight up district that covers the north part of Ucity to just at Ferguson, I stand corrected.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 11:10 AM (HDwDg)

285 @chemjeff, #168:

"Where do people think the votes are going to come from for the 'no government at all in health care' option?"

Right now, they probably won't come from enough people to pass. There are not enough people who understand civics/reality/finance/liberty to make a majority.

In the not-too-distant future, that vote will come from Math, because what can't go on forever, won't.

"So ObamaCare is here to stay for at least the foreseeable future."

From where I stand, the foreseeable future includes a total collapse of the system, at which point, ObamaCare will no longer stay. Politically, ObamaCare may be here for the present; it's not here to stay any more than Ozymandias was.

Posted by: Keith Arnold at August 14, 2014 11:10 AM (AWj2Z)

286 "It was a priceless moment when she broke into the Police Chief's press
conference to ask if she would be gassed again that night. After that
she reminded him she was *his* elected official...lol."

More constituents would be pleased at Senators that demanded they spray their elected officials with pepperspray.

This could be a great selling tool at fundraisers. I'd gladly contribute $100 for a chance to pepperspray a congresscritter.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:10 AM (0zVEV)

287 Posted by: @JohnTant at August 14, 2014 10:57 AM (eytER)


Hayek argued that it's a proper role for government to be involved in catastrophic healthcare. He didn't believe (as I don't believe) it's the role of government to provide free health services for all.

As I mentioned previously on this thread, what I am advocating is including the tiny percentage of catastrophic cases from the private sector into the government mix. However, as I've argued (and been classified as a Nazi because of) before, there needs to be limits as to the extent of the care provided.

Death panels.

As citizens, we should have no problem helping our fellow citizens in their time of need when unforeseen illness or accident happens. We should be ready to provide as much medical attention as is necessary and effective.

However, when other factors enter into the equation and wildly expensive procedures have little or no hope of improving the patient's condition, as taxpayers we should only pay for items that have a proven track record of results.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 11:10 AM (u2a4R)

288 My MIL is an area that to my knowledge has NEVER been flooded. If it was left up to me I would eliminate the entire flood insurance program. It was put in place for the real-estate speculators anyway.

Yeah, sounds like a money-grab, alright.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at August 14, 2014 11:11 AM (rt3TY)

289 There's nothing particularly utopian about libertarianism. And if you're talking about real libertarians--as opposed to the Hollywood stereotype--you'll find a wide array of viewpoints. Even the anarcho-capitalist position is not what people think it is.

The real problem is a lack of morality in the American people. And I don't primarily mean "Dana Carvey church lady" morality. I mean dedication to the principles of being responsible for yourself and your family, refusing to take what doesn't belong to you, and a sound work ethic. When people stop observing these principles in their own lives, others start to feel (inexplicably) guilty for the results. It's all downhill from there.

Theft is still wrong, no matter how good the supposed intentions of the advocates for theft. But you won't stop it until the bulk of our society becomes moral again.

Posted by: rfichoke at August 14, 2014 11:11 AM (vLCft)

290 270 The alderman in question is a St. Louis *city* alderman.

21st Ward, yeah. Antonio French. He's been a voice of reason down there trying to get footage out via Vine and Twitter. A lot of folks have started referring to him more as a citizen journalist than an alderman since he's not there in an official capacity.

Once those cops started moving - it didn't matter. They caught a KSDK reporter, a Fox2 Camerman, a few of Alex Jones' guys, etc. And they demanded cameras off for the whole thing. Pretty chilling display of "we're in charge here and we don't care who you are."

It frightens me most because next time it won't be blacks, it will be patriots...or tea partiers...or pro-life demonstrators. And all it takes is one agitator from Side A to move over to Side B and throw a rock - near-lethal force is unmasked instantly.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:12 AM (61Yy5)

291 Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:00 AM (61Yy5)

Ok thanks. I just see the bits and pieces at different sites, so it's hard to get the full picture.

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 11:13 AM (mx5oN)

292 How long would you accept an angry mob, led by the Black Panthers screaming for racial violence, controlling the streets at night where you lived before you demanded the cops put an end to it?

I'm open to arguments that the cops shouldn't have acted so quickly and maybe just hoped the protests would naturally burn out in a couple days.

I'm not sure what they did wrong once the order to disperse was given. That's what dispersing a riot crowd with teargas looks like.

For most of American history it looked much worse with a lot more billy clubs cracking skulls.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:14 AM (ZPrif)

293 gerrymanding created a mostly straight up district that covers the north part of Ucity to just at Ferguson, I stand corrected.

LOL. It was a pretty priceless 7 seconds of vine video, lemme see if I can grab a link off my feed.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:14 AM (61Yy5)

294 So I read yesterday (or whatever) that the USA has spent in 2011 dollars something more than $19 trillion on welfare programs since the War on Poverty began. Which was within living memory, just to hammer the point.

And the total expenditure (again in 2011 dollars) for all of the US's real wars all the way back to the Revolutionary War was something under $7 trillion.

As a country, we've spent on deadbeats in 80 years nearly three times the amount we've spent in all our history on winning and retaining our freedom. Or establishing and expanding our imperium, for those dumb enough to view it that way.

And, we currently spend our entire tax nut on wealth transfers. Everything else is on credit.

We should stop doing it this way.

Posted by: Troll Feeder at August 14, 2014 11:14 AM (LCafD)

295 Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 11:10 AM (u2a4R)

Typical collectivist bullshit from the Granny Slayer.

Posted by: eman at August 14, 2014 11:14 AM (5PIzd)

296 292 How long would you accept an angry mob, led by the Black Panthers screaming for racial violence, controlling the streets at night where you lived before you demanded the cops put an end to it?

Nobody would put up with it. Luckily it's a complete mischaracterization of the events of last night.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:14 AM (61Yy5)

297 Alex Jones guys were there.

Was there also a guy selling balloon animals?

Posted by: fairweatherbill at August 14, 2014 11:15 AM (SNGTs)

298
I'm not sure what they did wrong once the order to disperse was given. That's what dispersing a riot crowd with teargas looks like.

For most of American history it looked much worse with a lot more billy clubs cracking skulls.

I have to agree with you.

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:15 AM (9+ccr)

299 So I read yesterday (or whatever) that the USA has
spent in 2011 dollars something more than $19 trillion on welfare
programs since the War on Poverty began. Which was within living memory,
just to hammer the point.

And the total expenditure (again in
2011 dollars) for all of the US's real wars all the way back to the
Revolutionary War was something under $7 trillion.

As a country,
we've spent on deadbeats in 80 years nearly three times the amount we've
spent in all our history on winning and retaining our freedom. Or
establishing and expanding our imperium, for those dumb enough to view
it that way.

And, we currently spend our entire tax nut on wealth transfers. Everything else is on credit.

We should stop doing it this way.


Posted by: Troll Feeder at August 14, 2014 11:14 AM (LCafD)


If we spent $19 trillion on wars, we'd own half the solar system.

Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 11:15 AM (GQ8sn)

300 One thing I'll give jwest, he doesn't stay down after getting slapped there.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at August 14, 2014 11:16 AM (V8EAH)

301 And, we currently spend our entire tax nut on wealth transfers. Everything else is on credit.

We should stop doing it this way.


Posted by: Troll Feeder
---
And yet we are doubling down. Unwise.

Posted by: Mrs. Ida Lowry at August 14, 2014 11:16 AM (HVMdp)

302 300 One thing I'll give jwest, he doesn't stay down after getting slapped there.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at August 14, 2014 11:16 AM (V8EAH)


That's because I'm right.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 11:17 AM (u2a4R)

303 Drew is inexorably making me a libertarian as well.

The GOP doesn't need me any longer, or care about the principles that brought me to them.

Posted by: sithkhan at August 14, 2014 11:18 AM (8kUqK)

304 jwest is a troll.

Posted by: eman at August 14, 2014 11:18 AM (5PIzd)

305 19th Century riot dispersal often involved the use of Gatling Guns.

http://youtu.be/EU9RagyIFIQ


Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:19 AM (0zVEV)

306 jwest, I think you mean your other right.

You know. Your left.

Posted by: Gaff at August 14, 2014 11:19 AM (jPS2y)

307 Picture yourself on a blog in the morning,
With grey comment boxes
and trolls telling lies,
Suddenly, there is a new post and corgis are running
Not the Ewok but some other guu-u-u-u-yyyy

*bump*
*bump*
*bump*

Drewy on the Blog with Diamonds!
Drewy on the Blog with Diamonds!
Drewy on the Blog with Diamonds!

Ahhhhhh-ahhhhhhhh.....

Posted by: naturalfake - The Sixth Beatle at August 14, 2014 11:19 AM (0cMkb)

308 "That's because I'm right.


Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 11:17 AM (u2a4R)"


That's right sweetie, you just keep repeating what mommy always told you.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at August 14, 2014 11:19 AM (V8EAH)

309 I gotta do a frigging blog post on all of this. Damn this work inconvenience for continually getting in my way this morning...sigh

Aldrmn French's Vine: https://vine.co/u/912223639460524032

The one with the State Senator:
https://vine.co/v/MYXPAb9XIqZ

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:20 AM (61Yy5)

310 305 19th Century riot dispersal often involved the use of Gatling Guns.

http://youtu.be/EU9RagyIFIQ

I imagine that was quite a deterrent...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:20 AM (9+ccr)

311 @54

You claim that dating a black man requires bravery, but you call us racists.

Posted by: Troll Feeder at August 14, 2014 11:20 AM (LCafD)

312
>>>>jwest is a troll.

Nah just mistaken.

Originally trolling was more about providing incorrect trivia for lulz but it got more griefer as time went on. jwest doesn't do either.

Posted by: Beldar at August 14, 2014 11:20 AM (3ZtZW)

313 "Either way, we shrink the government and make people live with the consequences of their decisions."

A political impossibility. Politicians need to drink the blood of people failing to live with consequences in order to stay alive.

Posted by: Pj at August 14, 2014 11:20 AM (cHuNI)

314 @mviser

Obama will deliver a statement from Edgartown at 12:15. Could be about a number of things, but Ferguson seems likely.


Oh peachy....

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 11:21 AM (v0/PR)

315 Well, that should help calm things down.

John Nolte @NolteNC 2m
JUST IN: Obama to throw gasoline on the fire in #Ferguson at 12:15. He'll do this from his 1% enclave at Martha's Vineyard.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:21 AM (ZPrif)

316 Hey Rick, how about FEMA goosing the recently re-drawn flood zones putting people into flood planes that don't exist and making new people pay for flood insurance they don't and have never needed?

Let me guess 'duhhh, I never heard about that!' it was on this fucking blog months ago. But 20 years in the insurance business you've never seen insurance & gov' conspiring to fuck people before I'm sure right?


Ever been in a Plane Crash?

Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 11:21 AM (ZbB1q)

317 /sock

Posted by: Bigby's Tong-Weilding Hands at August 14, 2014 11:22 AM (3ZtZW)

318 Obama will deliver a statement from Edgartown at 12:15.


Oh fuck...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:23 AM (9+ccr)

319 I know there's one thing the situation didn't need.

And it's now happening at 12:15 :45.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:23 AM (61Yy5)

320 Obama's probably hoping he can grow the riots from Ferguson to engulf all of St. Louis.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:23 AM (ZPrif)

321 Lemme guess, someone white acted stupidly?

Posted by: Burn the Witch at August 14, 2014 11:23 AM (V8EAH)

322 Obama will deliver a statement from Edgartown at 12:15.

the cops acted stupidly.

Posted by: willow at August 14, 2014 11:23 AM (nqBYe)

323 Obama will deliver a statement from Edgartown at 12:15 2:30.



Fixed.


Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 11:24 AM (GQ8sn)

324 305 19th Century riot dispersal often involved the use of Gatling Guns.

http://youtu.be/EU9RagyIFIQ


Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:19 AM (0zVEV)

A whiff of grapeshot.

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 11:24 AM (mx5oN)

325 Beldar:

Correct. A classic troll would say something outrageous in a serious tone, to see how many unwary posters would start arguing with him.

A real troll never believes his own arguments, will say damned near anything just to get an angry reaction.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:24 AM (0zVEV)

326 Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 11:21 AM (ZbB1q)

A troll, and not a particularly good one either. Good to know.

Posted by: Gaff at August 14, 2014 11:24 AM (jPS2y)

327 The first night there were a lot of IL license plates amongst the looters, so you gotta know ESL is on board. The riots won't go too far South, nor will they go too far West.

Jefferson County and St Charles just have a much different racial makeup...and the #2A is very much alive and well out that way.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:26 AM (61Yy5)

328 That's because I'm right.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 11:17 AM (u2a4R)

And so unassuming and humble too!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 14, 2014 11:26 AM (QFxY5)

329 I'm with Hagel. He was telling the truth we he said recently the World is on fire. Now that includes part of the US. Thanks Barack...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:26 AM (9+ccr)

330 The media seems mostly upset that two of their own got rousted from a McDonalds for an hour.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:26 AM (ZPrif)

331 Posted by: Troll Feeder at August 14, 2014 11:14 AM (LCafD)

And we're importing more dead weight, and they are bringing disease with them.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at August 14, 2014 11:26 AM (Y92Nd)

332 Insomniac: Paris France has wide boulevards, with diagonal streets emanating from central squares and monuments by design.

Emperor Napoleon the Third wanted to be able to quell mobs by firing cannons loaded with grapeshot and canister down them, and needed clear fire lanes that no mob could survive crossing, or advancing down.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:27 AM (0zVEV)

333 330 The media seems mostly upset that two of their own got rousted from a McDonalds for an hour.

Anything to keep the flames burning. Good copy you know..

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:27 AM (9+ccr)

334 Lemme guess, Obama is gonna come down on the side of the Black Panthers again.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:28 AM (ZPrif)

335 330 The media seems mostly upset that two of their own got rousted from a McDonalds for an hour.

All of a sudden, every journalist graduated since 2007 is REALLY interested in this Constitution thingy they always heard so much about.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:28 AM (61Yy5)

336 "It's day 4 or 5 of rioting."

That's just a taste of things to come. LIB.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at August 14, 2014 11:28 AM (Y92Nd)

337
"You good people just don't understand Human Nature. You make
something like this, something intangible, optional and people just
aren't going to buy it much of the time. Certainly not all of the time,
but enough to cause the ones of us that do a lot of financial pain."

Here's why Conservatives are right and libertarians are wrong and liberals are wrong. It's about human nature.

Libertarians are wrong - Human beings are not mere rational calculators; they can rise up to that sometimes, in some cases (economic life) can be considered as such, but not all the time, and not when it counts. We humans get risks wrong, get respect for others wrong, and have our own "What was I thinking?" moments regarding our flawed reason. At those times, freedom and stand-on-your-own are not sufficient.

Progressives / leftists are wrong - human beings are not constructs of society but of our own human nature; made by our genes and our parentage, not the neighborhood we grew up in. We are not defined by our ethnicity and gender, but neither are such things mere social constructs. 'society' is not to blame when one human does wrong against another, justice and responsibility is individual not social.

Conservatives are right, or the least wrong - human beings are creatures of habit, emotion and reason, together; we are neither the extreme of libertarian / Randia Uberman nor the putty of social forces that the marxists see in us. We know good and evil are both real, and we all cross the line between them at times. We know that laws dont make us perfect, because utopia is impossible, but civil society is possible, and the good scoiety built on liberty is possible, with enough boundaries and hedges to keep our liberty and our rights ordered. Statecraft sometimes needs to be soulcraft, to induce the better angels of our nature, adn the best governance is either self-governance or those 'little platoons' of civil society to help one along. The state never needs to define our individuality or society, for those are rooted in natural law, and libertarians and conservatives share the aim of a society rooted in freedom an the Lockean contract.

In truth, the conservative view of human nature is the moderate view of
human nature, and the society we seek is a moderate, balanced and fair
one. It's been forgotten because the left has stolen the language and
the terms of the debate, leaving today's 'moderates' adrift, wondering
what to believe. USA 'moderates' are probably conservatives adrift who
cant get over how the media define 'the right' and are not buying the latest pleas from the right.


Posted by: Keep Calm Cruz On at August 14, 2014 11:28 AM (wT9UL)

338 "And so unassuming and humble too!"

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 14, 2014 11:26 AM (QFxY5)


Thank you.

I would have mentioned those traits myself, but I'm far too modest.

And good looking.

Posted by: jwest at August 14, 2014 11:28 AM (u2a4R)

339 Since when does a clown who spends more time golfing and engaged in other leisurely activities know more about what's good for me than me?

Wake the fuck up, America!

Posted by: Fritz at August 14, 2014 11:28 AM (UzPAd)

340 It was a priceless moment when she broke into the Police Chief's press conference to ask if she would be gassed again that night.

Did he say, "I hope so?"

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at August 14, 2014 11:28 AM (zF6Iw)

341 The Morning Dump included a link to a story about a smartphone app that will allow the user to select goods where they shop according to the company's political donations. I was struck by the headline, as it summarizes the activities of the Left.: "Now You Can Bring The Stifling Joylessness Of Modern Political Life To The Grocery Store"

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 11:29 AM (/GgDU)

342 So.
Barky is going to sooth the nations racial waters with his firm, yet loving dulcet words of comfort, and leadership.

"Hey, watch this swing.....fore!"

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 11:29 AM (OXMrX)

343 Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 11:21 AM (ZbB1q)

A troll, and not a particularly good one either. Good to know.


Cry me a river.

Want an answer, ask a question like a grown up.

Otherwise, prepare to be mocked

Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 11:29 AM (ZbB1q)

344
OK, now here is a man who can talk "get real" and without the stupid politically correct stupidity.
http://tinyurl.com/n5jp8rv

Posted by: maddogg at August 14, 2014 11:29 AM (xWW96)

345 If Obama does the statement near Edgartown marina, I'm going to laugh, because it'll really seem like he's taking the situation seriously when the backdrop has multimillion dollar yachts. haha.

Posted by: Mainah at August 14, 2014 11:29 AM (659DL)

346 Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:12 AM (61Yy5)


Yeah, while there are a myriad of problems, the low threshold for response was not helpful either.

Some rocks and bottles are going to be thrown. They're trying to goad you. It's up to you not to respond.

God help us if we have a WTO meeting here

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 11:30 AM (HDwDg)

347 "Emperor Napoleon the Third wanted to be able to quell mobs by firing
cannons loaded with grapeshot and canister down them, and needed clear
fire lanes that no mob could survive crossing, or advancing down."



Made for great German-themed parades later on too!

Posted by: Burn the Witch at August 14, 2014 11:30 AM (V8EAH)

348 Barky is going to sooth the nations racial waters with his firm, yet loving dulcet words of comfort, and leadership.

"Hey, watch this swing.....fore!

I no. I read today that Barack has played almost as many rounds of golf this year as Tiger Woods....

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:30 AM (9+ccr)

349
Paris France has wide boulevards, with diagonal streets emanating from central squares and monuments by design. Emperor Napoleon the Third wanted to be able to quell mobs by firing cannons loaded with grapeshot and canister down them, and needed clear fire lanes that no mob could survive crossing, or advancing down.
Posted by: Kristophr




*looks at map of Washington DC*

Uh oh.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 11:31 AM (kdS6q)

350 Otherwise, prepare to be mocked

Irony, like silvery, only rust colored.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 11:31 AM (YvHmx)

351 Keep Calm Cruz On:

Which is why I left the Libertarian Party. Big "L" libertarianism only works when rational people are a majority, and can prevent irrational idiots from screwing stuff up.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:31 AM (0zVEV)

352
I no

Dang I Know!

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:32 AM (9+ccr)

353 So you're also completely okay with private/public collusion to fuck the taxpayers.

Because that's the government we deserve, of course.

20 years in the insurance industry.

Posted by: Gaff at August 14, 2014 11:32 AM (jPS2y)

354
Hayek argued that it's a proper role for government to be involved in catastrophic healthcare. He didn't believe (as I don't believe) it's the role of government to provide free health services for all.

As I mentioned previously on this thread, what I am advocating is including the tiny percentage of catastrophic cases from the private sector into the government mix. However, as I've argued (and been classified as a Nazi because of) before, there needs to be limits as to the extent of the care provided.

Death panels.

As citizens, we should have no problem helping our fellow citizens in their time of need when unforeseen illness or accident happens. We should be ready to provide as much medical attention as is necessary and effective.

However, when other factors enter into the equation and wildly expensive procedures have little or no hope of improving the patient's condition, as taxpayers we should only pay for items that have a proven track record of results.


----

Sigh.

"Social insurance" <> "Catastrophic Health Care." Again, in the context of everything Hayek wrote or said, "social insurance" is more like Social Security than a government-run healthcare program. Sorry, but that's the actual reality of it.

I think you're substituting your own understanding of words as opposed to what Hayek meant when he used them.

Incidentally, you just doomed your own argument when you said you are for "including the tiny percentage of catastrophic cases from the private sector into the government mix." Thing is, Hayek would say (and has said) that government involvement is only warranted when the private sector cannot do something. But you just allowed that the private sector is offering catastropic care, so actually Hayek (and most everyone here, I think) would say what's best is less government control, not more.

The remainder of your post is a subjective argument about what "should" be. And you should also know that when you say "we should be ready to provide as much medical attention as is necessary and effective," you are arguing four square against Hayek, for reasons already discussed. You are also arguing in favor of, well, universal health care, something Hayek categorically rejected.



Posted by: @JohnTant at August 14, 2014 11:32 AM (eytER)

355 "I no. I read today that Barack has played almost as many rounds of golf this year as Tiger Woods...."


As I understand it, Barky is playing better than Tiger as well.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 11:32 AM (OXMrX)

356 I think we should think of Roy's plan, or similar plans, as one step in the long march towards truly free-market health care. Because we aren't going to be able to go from ObamaCare to "no government in health care" in directly one step.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 11:32 AM (9GG/0)

357 346 Some rocks and bottles are going to be thrown.

Imagine if this *wasn't* one of the coolest summers on record. 50% youth unemployment + something like this is a recipe for my main man Marshall.

You know, Marshall Law (sic).

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:32 AM (61Yy5)

358 "Want an answer, ask a question like a grown up.



Otherwise, prepare to be mocked

Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 11:29 AM (ZbB1q)"


Someone's projecting.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at August 14, 2014 11:32 AM (V8EAH)

359 Drew, wrong, on several counts. Ina way that matters. A lot.

First, O-care WAS never sold. It didn't sell, remember? Still hasn't. It was the largest, most disastrous policy ever forced on the country when there was clear majority sentiment - much of it intense - agin' it.

Second, Medicaid expansion would not have been an impossible sell. At all. Even one that (against all recent history) honestly and clearly laid out costs/related tax increases up front. The 2009/2010 Dems could have easily passed such an expansion. Easily. As opposed to the farcical, semi-banzai charge passage that did take place.

Third, not so much wrong as sloppy on the key point. Insurance - real insurance - is one of the most powerful financial arrangements ever developed. I'd say it was one of the top five factors that made the modern, prosperous world possible (and the least known/understood of the five, even though the simplest). Real insurance (like almost all of the real economy) springs into existence, it doesn't need to be coaxed out of the shadows, or engineered in a DARPA-funded laboratory, if you let it.

So "fixing" things doesn't involve greater intelligence or neater gimmicks or more competent government. It just involves getting out of the way. Literally, and simply. At the state level, as well as the federal. And that can still be done - easily - even with the Medicare/Medicaid behemoth huffing and slithering along side the regular insurance market.

And about the involuntarily financially uninsured (say that phrase again, each word: it is the ONLY subset of the populace of concern), who number in the low millions (NOT tens thereof) can be easily covered. Via voucher (subsidy) to participate in the real, regular insurance market.

And the costs of that bit of welfare would, truly, and easily, covered by the massive cost reductions across the health care economy that would result from simpe re-introduction of market logic and removal of cross-subsidies, bad regulation, and cartelization (mostly via state regulation). For a partial illustration (weaker than would result from real market revival) see Safeway/Vons and the dramatic cost reduction they realized - instantly - from simply adopting a more logical approach for their own employees' coverage. And that was within the otherwise mucked up system - with the boat anchors of federal and state interference reduced/removed, such "innovations" (which are stunningly obvious common sense things) would yield dramatic results.

Posted by: rhomboid at August 14, 2014 11:33 AM (afQnV)

360 Laurie David's Cervix:

Exactly.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:33 AM (0zVEV)

361

CNN: Is Hillary Being 'Ham-Handed' As a Candidate?


Ham-handed?

I had to look that up...

freebeacon.com

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 11:33 AM (IXrOn)

362 Beyond the problems of the specifics of Libertarian tactics there is a much more serious issue that the Libertarians will have to address if they ever want to be a serious alternate party. And they won't do it.

Libertarianism only works with a population that has a socially conservative bent.

Replace the current American population with Mormons and Evangelicals and you could easily reduce the state to almost nothing.

But the current American population has shown that they want the freedom to do stupid shit...and then have someone else pay for it.

So even if the Libertarians could stop being useful idiots for the left tactically, and that is a big if, they'd still not be able to move society in the direction they want.

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 11:33 AM (5DM9u)

363 Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:32 AM (61Yy5

Nobody's coming out clean in this.

And I can't reach send an email to my elected officials in the county to tell them how pissed I am because anonymous crashed the website.

Smart go there people! But my snail mail letter will make it in 3-5 days.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 11:34 AM (HDwDg)

364 I think the House GOP can work with this.

Hey, let's amnesty millions of non-Americans and get them to pay for it!

Posted by: Orange and In Charge at August 14, 2014 11:34 AM (Y6xQZ)

365
Until we have a minimum of a 2 party system here, any good or bad suggestions are only talk amongst ourselves, which can btw relieve a little steam and beats the hell out of rioting and burning your own neighborhood.

Nevertheless, the govt boning will continue.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at August 14, 2014 11:34 AM (w4KwQ)

366
It bee legal now to shoot a black bro when he only ax's for directions to the Kwicky-Mart. I been texting with my homeboy's since the killin', and people gonna know who we is after it all over.

Posted by: Rachel Jeantel at August 14, 2014 11:35 AM (3eAHj)

367 The problem isn't the political parties, the problem is the American people.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:35 AM (ZPrif)

368
Cry me a river. Want an answer, ask a question like a grown up.Otherwise, prepare to be mocked
Posted by: Uncle Rick



*tips fedora*

*calls Mom to pick him up from the library computer room*

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 11:35 AM (kdS6q)

369 *looks at map of Washington DC*

=====

plus most of dc is underground.

Posted by: Bigbys Cellphone at August 14, 2014 11:36 AM (4gut2)

370 Hey, let's amnesty millions of non-Americans and get them to pay for it!
Posted by: Orange and In Charge at August 14, 2014 11:34 AM (Y6xQZ)

I think we should pay the decent, hard-working Americans already to f*ck more... No BJs allowed.. just $100 for doing it with a member of the opposite sex of child bearing age... No protection

Posted by: MikeH at August 14, 2014 11:36 AM (NfnJU)

371 Laurie David's Cervix: He likes hanging with the hobos masturbating at the library terminals.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:37 AM (0zVEV)

372 363 Nobody's coming out clean in this.

More outside influences trying to co-opt what started peaceful. Almost like the astroturfing of the Te...oh, nvm...lol

http://tinyurl.com/nkv626z

Someone just threw that up on my wall, not yet completely vetted but it looks like the same group that may have been involved with the molotov activity as well.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:37 AM (61Yy5)

373 So you're also completely okay with private/public collusion to fuck the taxpayers.

Because that's the government we deserve, of course.
***
Unfortunately the population is in love with national socialism. I'd argue it is because we haven't had anyone making the counter case on the national stage since Newt in the 90s...but it is the reality we face.

Hell, in 2012 the "conservative" party nominated America's most effective technocrat. It is funny though - I saw the left building up to run against Romney in 2010 and said to myself there is no way the Republicans could be so stupid as to nominate Mitt Romneycare now...and apparently I'm too much of a optimist...

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 11:37 AM (5DM9u)

374 Red diamonds are forever
They are all I need to please me
They can stimulate and tease me
They won't leave in the night
Have no fear that they might
...Desert me

Posted by: shirley bassey at August 14, 2014 11:38 AM (SSKck)

375 @RobertDEdwards

JUST IN: Governor Jay Nixon will address the media in #Ferguson at 2:30.


Jay you're gonna step on Obama.

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 11:38 AM (v0/PR)

376 So do we have a poll going as to how late obama will be? I say 10 minutes to be kind..

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:38 AM (9+ccr)

377
This is how liberals win. They spend decades trying to get something and conservatives stop fighting against it and start trying to make it work six months later. Theres no longer any argument about whether or not we should be doing what liberals want, just how we should be doing it.

----

Anyone who tries to 'fix' a liberal program is by definition not a conservative.

Posted by: Marcel Marceau at August 14, 2014 11:38 AM (ZkzmI)

378
*looks at map of Washington DC*

plus most of dc is underground.
Posted by: Bigbys Cellphone




And how many troops in town or within a day's march?

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 14, 2014 11:39 AM (kdS6q)

379
silent sock off

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at August 14, 2014 11:39 AM (ZkzmI)

380 People don't recoil from Marxism until marxists completely destroy their country.

We may have to go through as much hurt as the Soviet Union did before the LIVs finally have a clue beaten into their skulls.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:39 AM (0zVEV)

381 Another good one. You won't see this in the media about the incident that started all of this.

http://t.co/hwNAJKBRAT

Eighteen years old. At least New Amsterdam is better than Gordon's, idk.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:40 AM (61Yy5)

382 Made for great German-themed parades later on too!
Posted by: Burn
----------------

There's nothing quite so stirring as the stamp of goose-stepping hob-nailed boots.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 11:40 AM (/GgDU)

383 Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:37 AM (61Yy5)

If you wanted to start a revolution using ultra violence you couldn't have picked a stupider area than what's sandwiched between Middle MO and Southern IL.

If it does spread, I assure you they'll contain it damned quickly. Middle MO because they don't want their exurban escape upset.

S. IL because...well they built a literal wall around ESTL, you do the math.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 11:40 AM (HDwDg)

384 Anyone who tries to 'fix' a liberal program is by definition not a conservative.
Posted by: Marcel Marceau at August 14, 2014 11:38 AM (ZkzmI)

Well, if you mean 'fix' in the sense of giving a vasectomy to a dog that's been impregnating every bitch in heat - I'm in for that...

Posted by: MikeH at August 14, 2014 11:41 AM (zqzYV)

385 We may have to go through as much hurt as the Soviet Union did before the LIVs finally have a clue beaten into their skulls.
----

Seems like much of Russia wants to go back to the Soviet days.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:41 AM (ZPrif)

386 Seems like much of Russia wants to go back to the Soviet days.

Well they do miss their Vodka rations...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:42 AM (9+ccr)

387
http://t.co/hwNAJKBRAT



Eighteen years old. At least New Amsterdam is better than Gordon's, idk.

Posted by: akula_51

---
Lovely, booze and guns being played with.
Who would have thought...

Posted by: Mrs. Ida Lowry at August 14, 2014 11:42 AM (HVMdp)

388 383 If you wanted to start a revolution using ultra violence you couldn't have picked a stupider area than what's sandwiched between Middle MO and Southern IL.

Hey, isn't MO an open carry state?

Toss in Alex Jones and wham, we need the Admiral Painter quote, STAT.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:42 AM (61Yy5)

389 Another good one. You won't see this in the media about the incident that started all of this.

http://t.co/hwNAJKBRAT
----------------------

Do you think this is legit?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 11:42 AM (/GgDU)

390 NRO The Corner

Join the Just-Launched National Review Wine Club Today and Save $100 on 12 World-Class Wines!

intriguing

*cheers!

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 11:43 AM (IXrOn)

391 Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:42 AM (61Yy5

I broke that out 3 days ago.

I don't think MO went open carry though.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 11:44 AM (HDwDg)

392 So you're also completely okay with private/public collusion to fuck the taxpayers.

Because that's the government we deserve, of course.

20 years in the insurance industry.


I suspect you get fucked a lot; by a lot of evil people and things.....

No matter where I go......

Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 11:44 AM (ZbB1q)

393 Constanza Defence:

More like the Czarist days. Authoritarian government with crony capitalism. And Putin's approval rating is insanely high right now.

Still an improvement over Marxism.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:44 AM (0zVEV)

394 I will send a max contribution to the first Republican willing to say: "they can die cold in the street ..."

Posted by: Jean at August 14, 2014 11:45 AM (dVZnT)

395 You say "crack and hookers" and "tools that will make your life better" as if they are mutually exclusive.

Posted by: Tight5 at August 14, 2014 11:45 AM (y4djL)

396 There certainly are outside agitators in this, but the locals are in it too.No matter what there is no excuse for the rioting...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:45 AM (9+ccr)

397 18-1; yeah, as its become obvious the GOPe aren't "conservative" and probably haven't been since the 90s at best.

They're effectively the minority party for the Democrats by choice. Even out of power, they still get their turn at the trough which is all they want. Anybody who rocks that boat (Tea Party/actual conservatives) are actively opposed by the party leaders, or co-opted until they fall in line. Same as the Democrats before them (rooting out any part of the party that wasn't 'progressive' in the 50s/60s/70s).

Posted by: Gaff at August 14, 2014 11:45 AM (jPS2y)

398 A large (well, fat) part of the problem with health care is that too many Americans treat their bodies like sewers. They eat junk, smoke, fail to exercise, do stupid things, and then when they develop all kinds of avoidable problems (type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, etc.) they demand other people pay for it. F'em, I've made no secret here of my enjoyment of delta-11 THC. OTOH, my LDL is 123, triglyceride is 60 and HDL is 74. I take care of myself and other than a broken finger 12 years ago, haven't had a single medical issue I couldn't easily pay for.

Posted by: SFGoth at August 14, 2014 11:45 AM (VA2JE)

399 389 Do you think this is legit?

The kid was an aspiring rapper. Whether the seals stayed on the bottles and no delinquency was contributed to or not, a photo like this would help establish "cred" with his peers.

It may be a cap gun...same deal.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 11:45 AM (61Yy5)

400 So do we have a poll going as to how late obama will be? I say 10 minutes to be kind..

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 11:38 AM


I'll take seventeen minutes late, so it'll be a 12:32 PM start

Posted by: AltonJackson at August 14, 2014 11:46 AM (WRseu)

401 Anthother entry in the "everything shall be politicized" category, my Tunein Radio app just informed me that I can listen live to the protests going down in Missouri.

Posted by: Kreplach at August 14, 2014 11:47 AM (bKSy7)

402 So even if the Libertarians could stop being useful idiots for the left tactically, and that is a big if, they'd still not be able to move society in the direction they want.

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 11:33 AM (5DM9u)


Hmmm... I see you don't understand Libertarian philosophy at all.

We don't want to move Society in the direction we want.... we want people to decide THEMSELVES what they want to do...

We do want those in charge of GOVERNMENT to stop using the Law, to push people where THEY want us to go.

Republicans want to use the 'state' to force us to do what they want.... Liberals and Progressives want to use the State to force us to live how THEY want...

Libertarians don't want the State to have that power AT ALL.... because the 'State' is not a thinking entity unto itself... but is run by fallible people...


But more.... like the Progressives... we understand that you NEVER get everything you want.... so when you negotiate you start with a position way to the side of what your really want... and slowly move the point of balance in the direction you wish to go.

Republicans don't get this... they start with the status quo... and thus ANY deal made, moves the balance in the direction the Progressives want.

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 14, 2014 11:47 AM (84gbM)

403 46 until the poor are living the kardashian lifestyle...they are not going to be satisfied and no matter how much you give them...it won't be enough and they won't be grateful for it......
------------------------------------

^^^^ This!! Anything given for "free" is never appreciated. Look how well the residents of "free" public housing treat their apartments.

Posted by: WhyMe at August 14, 2014 11:47 AM (l9mF2)

404 Media care more about two reporters getting rousted from a McDonalds than this - a reporter trying to see Obama's amnesty in action.

HotAir.com @hotairblog 5m
Texas reporters shut out of immigration court http://hotair.com/headlines/?p=303958

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:48 AM (ZPrif)

405 "20 years in the insurance industry" is the new "I was just following orders".

Posted by: Gaff at August 14, 2014 11:48 AM (jPS2y)

406 I know several police dept's have a shoot on sight policy for molotov cocktails ... so that is a dangerous game that could easily escalate the situation.

Posted by: Jean at August 14, 2014 11:49 AM (dVZnT)

407 Is anyone willing to listen to Fredo and give the collective some highlights? I can't stand to look or listen to the fuckscab.

Posted by: Thin Veneer Of Civility at August 14, 2014 11:49 AM (knfPD)

408 New picture of Hillary on Drudge. Notice the arrangement of words behind her head. And you can barely make out the three '9's on her scalp.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at August 14, 2014 11:50 AM (Ec6wH)

409 New picture of Hillary on Drudge. Notice the
arrangement of words behind her head. And you can barely make out the
three '9's on her scalp.


Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at August 14, 2014 11:50 AM (Ec6wH)


Warning.

Do NOT go to Drudge and look at the pic of Hillary!

You will be sorry.

Posted by: EC at August 14, 2014 11:51 AM (GQ8sn)

410 Were the cops thugs?
Militarized?

Posted by: Ncj at August 14, 2014 11:51 AM (FITc1)

411 Jean: a Molotov in the hand is a deadly weapon being prepped for use. period.

In most states, citizens can immediately use deadly force on any idiot approaching an inhabited building with a Molotov.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:51 AM (0zVEV)

412 Posted by: Romeo13 at August 14, 2014 11:47 AM

As a registered Libertarian*, thank you.

*I very much disagree with my party's position on the border. Fence it, moat it, mine it, and if Honduras is such a shitehole that it's forcing its citizens to flee here, maybe we should send a Marine expeditionary force in.

I'd also get rid of every cabinet-level department created since Jimmy Carter said he'd never lie to us. Those savings alone would give us the ability to give everyone lawfully here basic medical care.

Posted by: SFGoth at August 14, 2014 11:51 AM (VA2JE)

413 "And you can barely make out the three '9's on her scalp."

If you get your Mark of the Beast early, you can have a vanity number.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:52 AM (0zVEV)

414 I mean, I don't know. We didn't get to ObamaCare overnight, the Left spent decades prepping the population and incessantly agitating for more and more government-run health care. And even now they think ObamaCare didn't go far enough, they want to see it go farther.

It seems that a lot of people here think we can just skip all the intermediate agitation and pressure and just jump instantly from "status quo" to "conservative utopia" in one fell swoop.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 11:53 AM (9GG/0)

415 Posted by: Ncj at August 14, 2014 11:51 AM (FITc1)

Driving the MRAP around with the sniper out the top really isn't helping things though.

As I said, no one is coming out clean on this. It's only going to get worse as information dribbles out.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 11:53 AM (HDwDg)

416 "20 years in the insurance industry" is the new "I was just following orders".

I've never been attacked by a Pit Yorkie before.

It tickles

Posted by: Uncle Rick at August 14, 2014 11:54 AM (ZbB1q)

417 Do NOT go to Drudge and look at the pic of Hillary!

That's really disturbing.

Posted by: Thin Veneer Of Civility at August 14, 2014 11:54 AM (knfPD)

418 999 - the mumble of the Beast?

Posted by: SFGoth at August 14, 2014 11:54 AM (VA2JE)

419 I'll take the Libertarians seriously when they tell the Anarcho-Capitalists to go make their own party, and THEN hector their party members for initiating the use of force by voting.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:54 AM (0zVEV)

420 Al Stewart's album Between the Wars was mentioned a few days ago in the context of the song about the Treaty of Versailles, League of Notions (which I miscited). That whole album is good, I think, but why I cite it now is the bittersweet mood of a doomed society dancing toward the precipice. Barky and Mooch dancing while the world burns reminds me of the song Laughing into 1939. It's the soundtrack of our era.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at August 14, 2014 11:54 AM (gIh5T)

421 If you get your Mark of the Beast early, you can have a vanity number.
Posted by: Kristophr
--------------------------

True. But you have to pay a price.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 11:55 AM (/GgDU)

422

Normal
0






MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

@147 "I'm not sure any of it is practical. That law is so nested in our system now, I'm not sure how to get it out."

and

@121
"I'll also point out that it is silly to think we can just go back to
what we had before. The system has been disrupted and can't be returned
to what existed in 2008. Just this morning my company jettisoned all
the retirees onto Obamacare. No repeal is going to get my company to
reverse that decision later."


Fuck that. They created a massive goat screwing that is STILL ongoing to get this abomination into the system.

We can damn sure claim the privilege of causing a small amount of mayhem in order to unfuck it.

"All you insurance companies will get to set your own policies, offerings, and premiums without federal interference starting in 6 months from today. You are on your own with regard to state requirements.

"Except that the state by state siloing that has existed for decades is no longer in effect; there is now one, single, nation-wide market for medical insurance.

"Obama and his calendar-less apparatchiks are gone: there will not be any delays in the implementation date. The clock is ticking. Get to work."


/* Style Definitions */
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Posted by: Troll Feeder at August 14, 2014 11:55 AM (LCafD)

423 Uh, oh....

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 11:55 AM (/GgDU)

424 Well, they are only in the middle of a war. Probably don't need supplies or anything.

DRUDGE REPORT @DRUDGE_REPORT 11m
Obama Reportedly Blocks Israel Missile Shipment http://drudge.tw/1AgPjdu

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:55 AM (ZPrif)

425 Excellent work Drew

Posted by: gwelf at August 14, 2014 11:56 AM (TJ8HB)

426
We don't want to move Society in the direction we want.... we want people to decide THEMSELVES what they want to do...
***
And there is the fundamental failure of Libertarianism.

The populace wants the freedom to do stupid things. And to have other people pay for it. Because if you have to pay personally for stupid shit you have to work hard and engage in it as a hobby instead of a lifestyle.

The only answer to that is socialism* and we now have a plurality voting for exactly that in federal elections.

So the more the Libertarians focus on dismantling the old Judeo-Christian society, the further they move the country towards socialism.

Libertarians changed their focus in the 90s from the size and scope of government to generally aping the left's social agenda which was idiotic, short sighted, and part of the reason that we are where we are today (the Republicans are too blame obviously as well).

Until you wean people off of other people's money everything else is for naught for Libertarians...and perhaps one day they'll wake up to that fact.

*Socialism eventually gets to the point where the state can't afford to pay for all the stupid shit and decides to ban some of it. So, for example, EBT cards go away and mandated work assignments show up...but by that point the LIVs have sealed their fates...

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 11:56 AM (5DM9u)

427 something else to chew on

Feds Buy Border Fence ... for Ukraine

As part of the U.S. Crisis Support Package for Ukraine announced by the White House in April, the State Department awarded a $435,000 contract to B.K. Engineering System in Kyiv for razor wire to help "defend the newly imposed borders between Ukraine's mainland and the Crimean peninsula." The contract was awarded on June 12, but was just posted online this week.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/feds-buy-border-fence-ukraine_802933.html

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 11:57 AM (IXrOn)

428 Troll Feeder: Never go full-Retard Microsoft.

( if you must precompose a post, save the document as a simple .TXT file first )

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 11:57 AM (0zVEV)

429 Troll Feeder, please report to the barrel.

REMEMBER: If you must copypasta, use Notepad as an intermediary!

Posted by: Brother Cavil at August 14, 2014 11:57 AM (rt3TY)

430 Worst thing I've seen in the videos is the cops dismantling the Al Jazeera equipment. But I don't think Al Jazeera has some constitutional right to setup flood lights in the middle of a riot.

Harder to explain pointing the camera down. Dismantling the lights to prevent night blindness seems reasonable actually.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 11:58 AM (ZPrif)

431 Troll feeder is now barrel food

Posted by: Ncj at August 14, 2014 11:58 AM (FITc1)

432 JINX

Posted by: Brother Cavil at August 14, 2014 11:59 AM (rt3TY)

433 "..Romney(care?) advisor...conservative health policy expert.." Well there you go, an oxymoron in the first sentence. I suspect "conservative" is an honorific any "Romney advisor" will be afforded between now and November '16, eh?

Posted by: Born Free at August 14, 2014 11:59 AM (xL8Hf)

434 Someone mentioned far above (Vic ?) That Paul Ryan is not a conservative. I remember being dumbfounded at his veep debate performance. It's because he could not disagree.

Posted by: Russkilitlove at August 14, 2014 11:59 AM (PbtaL)

435 Never go full Microtard -Retard Microsoft.


FIFY

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:00 PM (/GgDU)

436 Well, they are only in the middle of a war. Probably don't need supplies or anything.



DRUDGE REPORT @DRUDGE_REPORT 11m

Obama Reportedly Blocks Israel Missile Shipment http://drudge.tw/1AgPjdu

Posted by: Costanza Defense

Well, he's not a Harry Truman Democrat

Posted by: Jean at August 14, 2014 12:00 PM (dVZnT)

437 414 I mean, I don't know. We didn't get to ObamaCare overnight, the Left spent decades prepping the population and incessantly agitating for more and more government-run health care. And even now they think ObamaCare didn't go far enough, they want to see it go farther.

It seems that a lot of people here think we can just skip all the intermediate agitation and pressure and just jump instantly from "status quo" to "conservative utopia" in one fell swoop.
Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 11:53 AM (9GG/0)

There is not enough time to slowly steer us back to a free market republic.

I advocate radical change be made without delay.

Push hard now for what you really want not for what you think you might be able to get.

Posted by: eman at August 14, 2014 12:01 PM (5PIzd)

438 ( throws some midget porn, valu-rite vodka, and Hobo jerky into the barrel before driving in the bung )

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:01 PM (0zVEV)

439 oh

watch this (from weekly standard)

Ad: 'Let's Secure America Now'

Secure America Now, a non-profit national security organization, has a new ad reminiscent of Lyndon Johnson's 1964 "Daisy" ad, updated for the security challenges of the modern era. Using the original ad's imagery of a little girl in a field and a massive explosion, the spot urges the United States to "stand up to terrorism" and "not let the jihadist government of Iran get a nuclear bomb." Watch the video below:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-YapDAWLkQ

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 12:01 PM (IXrOn)

440 Pointless, probably, but wow.

Folks, we simply must accept a "reality". The "reality" is that a massive, unconstitutional, unworkable, economically illiterate disruption of the health care system is so much a part of the landscape, so much like Mt. Everest, that it cannot be undone, cannot be substantially repealed.

Evidence for this is that almost every significant part of the program has been unlawfully, unconstitutionally delayed and suspended, via press conference and lawless regulatory announcement. Further evidence is that a tiny number of the already vastly exaggerated number of prime "beneficiaries" have signed up, and an even smaller number of those have paid their premiums.

I wonder what a disastrous, unworkable, extremely politically vulnerable massive govt. program would look like? Hmmm.

(facepalm)

Posted by: rhomboid at August 14, 2014 12:02 PM (afQnV)

441 Well, he's not a Harry Truman Democrat
Posted by: Jean
-------------------

I might call him a Henry Wallace Democrat..., on a cocktail of steroids and stupid pills.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:03 PM (/GgDU)

442 It seems that a lot of people here think we can just skip all the intermediate agitation and pressure and just jump instantly from "status quo" to "conservative utopia" in one fell swoop.
***
I've been told for 30 years now that if I vote for the "moderate Republican" who will embrace "gradual change" that I will see the government reforming itself along conservative lines.

Well, the government is now several times the size and scope of where it was when the republicans embraced that idea, and the current party's focus seems to be Amnesty, Corporate Welfare, and implementing effective socialized health care.

So the explicit gradualist policy has failed. Why then would I continue to embrace it?

Oh and if you look at the Democrats and the Left, they have implemented a gradualist policy, but that is not there intent. The left *constantly* pushes the boundaries which keeps moving the Overton window to the Left.

Yes sometimes they move to far (see Hillarycare) but by electing leftwing extremists consistently, and consistently pushing far left wing agenda items they've gotten us ever closer to their view of how America should be.

Much like Patton in WWII it is damn time we "read their book" and start doing what works...

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 12:03 PM (5DM9u)

443 I see where the article references Hillary's horrible summer.

Wanna know who else is having a horrible summer?
The Yazidi's.


Of course, on the plus side, most of the Yasidi's don't suffer from an overweight problem.
And the long term medical conditions that excess weight can cause later in life.

So they have that going for them.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:04 PM (OXMrX)

444
The report noted that on July 20, ahead of the Hellfire missile
cancellation, the IDF asked the US military for various munitions such
as 120-mm mortar shells and 40-mm illuminating rounds, without the
knowledge of Obama's administration.


Three days later the request was approved by the military, without
Obama or US Secretary of State John Kerry being approached for approval,
given that their approval was not required for such a transfer.


A US defense official added that the standard review process in such requests was properly followed.


=====
Bastards stepped in and put American jobs at risk.

Posted by: Jean at August 14, 2014 12:04 PM (dVZnT)

445 Mmm. Copypasta.

Posted by: homer simpson at August 14, 2014 12:04 PM (SSKck)

446 Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 11:56 AM (5DM9u)

But this is only possible, because the State has taken unto itself power it should not have in the first place.

and because being Nice, now trumps Rights (like property rights).

When the economy fails... and it WILL due to the current Keynesian folks in charge at the Fed and Treasury.... That WILL change.

Because Nice suddenly takes a back seat to feeding your OWN kids.

EU is in a recession.... as GDP growth was NEGATIVE .2% even in Germany.... if you take out Quantitative easing and Deficit spending, we have been in a depression for years.... and the house of cards is about to fall down...

When the shit hits the fan.... and reality bitch slaps a lot of folks... we will have an opportunity to rebalance the Government / Freedom equation... which is why some of us are talking about this stuff NOW...

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 14, 2014 12:04 PM (84gbM)

447 LOL...one of the funnier moments from last night.

Rob McNeece @akula_51 · 11h
Up is down, left is right! MT @axolROSE Al Jazeera is covering Ferguson but CNN is stuck on The Middle East....

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 12:05 PM (61Yy5)

448 18-1:

Vlad Lenin wrote some very good manuals on how to lead a successful revolution ... books that were always missing from Soviet public libraries, for some reason.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:05 PM (0zVEV)

449 Wanna know who else is having a horrible summer?
-----------------

Me?

Posted by: Zombie Chris Stevens at August 14, 2014 12:06 PM (/GgDU)

450 Bastards stepped in and put American jobs at risk.

********

Because jobs are such a huge priority for this crew.

Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at August 14, 2014 12:06 PM (vgIRn)

451 "Me?"

Well, yeh.


But at least your death had meaning....

Er....never mind.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:08 PM (OXMrX)

452 The Free Shit Army don't need no jobs!

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:08 PM (0zVEV)

453 The Free Shit Army don't need no jobs!

That could cut into their rioting time...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:08 PM (9+ccr)

454 HSAs have not been outlawed. I have one. There was a different kind that was outlawed and I have forgotten what that was.


Posted by: Vic


The HSA we have was outlawed and the only reason we are allowed to keep ours is because we didn't make any changes to the plan for 5 years or something so we were grandfathered in.

Posted by: Dang at August 14, 2014 12:08 PM (MNq6o)

455 Much like Patton in WWII it is damn time we "read their book" and start doing what works...

Pull a list of crap Wodrow Wilson passed, reverse it. Then move on to FDR and Nixon.

Posted by: Jean at August 14, 2014 12:09 PM (dVZnT)

456 TFG is speaking...






j/k

Posted by: RWC - he who likes guns and boobehs and has a goatee at August 14, 2014 12:10 PM (fWAjv)

457 456 TFG is speaking...

Early? Guess he has to make his tee time...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:10 PM (9+ccr)

458 Jean:

But you need to get to the point where the legislators see that failing to reverse those policies could cost them dearly.

Which is where 18-1s advice comes into play.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:11 PM (0zVEV)

459 Again, from the dump re: cellphone app.

Obamaphone--> app --> identify/make purchases from Dem donors --> donors fund Dems --> Dems supply phones --> Loop to Obamaphone

Posted by: Zombie Chris Stevens at August 14, 2014 12:11 PM (/GgDU)

460 Great. The clock doesn't even work at the HQ.

Posted by: RWC - he who likes guns and boobehs and has a goatee at August 14, 2014 12:11 PM (fWAjv)

461 "Early? Guess he has to make his tee time..."

Someone let him know that the governor was going to step on his time slot. Never get between a politician and a camera.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:12 PM (0zVEV)

462 TFG is speaking...
------------------------

Ergo..., he is lying.

Posted by: Mike HAmmer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:12 PM (/GgDU)

463 "Great. The clock doesn't even work at the HQ."

Sometimes you have to tap it with your finger to unstick the hands.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:12 PM (OXMrX)

464 But this is only possible, because the State has taken unto itself power it should not have in the first place.
***
Which it did because society approved of it. And society approved of it because it bought into the left's cultural view.

As I've often discussed with Libertarians, if you put a clone of Rick Santorum (to take one boogyman) and put him in every political office of the land you would be significantly freer then you are now.

If you cloned Obama in such a way people would be in prison for disagreeing with him and our society would fall somewhere in between national socialist and kleptocracy.

And yet I see more Libertarian heartache over lil Ricky then the current despot-in-chief.

When the shit hits the fan.... and reality bitch slaps a lot of folks... we will have an opportunity to rebalance the Government / Freedom equation... which is why some of us are talking about this stuff NOW...

I certainly hope so...but historically that is rare. The more likely scenario is that when things fall apart we will get to choose between the remnants of the current Leviathan and a popular military commander with little interest in theoretical political models*

*Gee, why did Obama take down Petraeus again?

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 12:13 PM (5DM9u)

465 Empty podium.


Looks good.

Wish it would stay that way.

Posted by: RWC - he who likes guns and boobehs and has a goatee at August 14, 2014 12:13 PM (fWAjv)

466 Change the "status quo" overnight? What status quo? The unlawfully suspended deadlines? The vague and unworkable regulations that are dribbling out, including the ones being challenged and struck down in federal courts? The tiny number of "beneficiaries" who have signed up?

WTF with this uninformed premise about challenging a dusty, well-established status quo? What status quo?

The highly unpopular "reforms" that have stripped affordable private insurance from millions (of self-sufficient extremely high-frequency voters)? The ones hated even by Dem core constituency union vermin because it will eventually threaten their extorted gravy train? Those reforms?

So hard-fought (successful) welfare reform (real reform) can be undone in one executive order and a handful of regulations. But a hugely unpopular, stumbling, unworkable and nearly universally despised "reform" is simply politically untouchable? It might be so bad and unpopular its implementation has essentially been suspended, but hey - man, it's the status quo, only lunatics and Don Quixote types can think of taking it on.

Posted by: rhomboid at August 14, 2014 12:13 PM (afQnV)

467 So, what did he say? I Me Mine ?

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:14 PM (9+ccr)

468
Pull a list of crap Wodrow Wilson passed, reverse it. Then move on to FDR and Nixon.


Posted by: Jean at August 14, 2014 12:09 PM (dVZnT)


I've never figured out how the Fed Reserve Bank, which effectively controls every bank in the US.... is NOT a Monopoly... and thus subject to Antitrust Legislation...

As it IS a Privately owned Bank... with stockholders who take a profit.

Who... by the way.... has this nifty theft program called quantitative easing... where they create money, BUY real assets and debt from its member banks... and KEEPS it... to the tune of a couple of trillion dollars the last few years...

Oh.... and the Stockholders? get paid a dividend on that money....

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 14, 2014 12:14 PM (84gbM)

469 Sometimes you have to tap it with your finger to unstick the hands.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:12 PM (OXMrX)

And why are the hands sticking....

ewwwwwwwww

Posted by: RWC - he who likes guns and boobehs and has a goatee at August 14, 2014 12:14 PM (fWAjv)

470 18-1: Sometimes that works.

After Pinochet finished exiling or executing the Castro-ites, he did step down.

Chile is in pretty good shape these days.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:14 PM (0zVEV)

471 Sometimes you have to tap it with your finger to unstick the hands.
Posted by: Village
--------------------------
If I recall, there was a scene in Top Gun where Cruise tapped the face of a digital display. Pretty funny..., the writers don't know much about such things.

Posted by: Mike HAmmer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:15 PM (/GgDU)

472 And my health insurance premiums will be reduced by 3000%. Yay.

Posted by: wth at August 14, 2014 12:15 PM (wAQA5)

473 The racist First Ladyboy continues to starve white children.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 12:15 PM (aW/1n)

474 467 So, what did he say? I Me Mine ?

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:14 PM (9+ccr)

Not on yet. I was kidding upthread.

For my penance I shall watch as much as I can.

Posted by: RWC - he who likes guns and boobehs and has a goatee at August 14, 2014 12:15 PM (fWAjv)

475 @422 Crap. My bad.

Posted by: Troll Feeder at August 14, 2014 12:15 PM (LCafD)

476 "And why are the hands sticking...."


Three words.........

Viscous fluid

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:16 PM (OXMrX)

477 So, what did he say? I Me Mine ?
Posted by: helloit's
-----------------------------

'gimmiedat'

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:16 PM (/GgDU)

478 Fascism!!!

John Nolte @NolteNC 6m
#Ferguson Mayor says a building was burnt down the block from the McDonald's where reporters were asked to move.

Posted by: ProgMedia at August 14, 2014 12:16 PM (ZPrif)

479 And the looting in Ferguson will be reduced by 3000%. Yay.

Posted by: wth at August 14, 2014 12:17 PM (wAQA5)

480
Not on yet. I was kidding upthread.

Then I still have a chance to win with my 10 minute late guess...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:17 PM (9+ccr)

481
Much like Patton in WWII it is damn time we "read their book" and start doing what works...

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 12:03 PM (5DM9u)

What WORKS is the gradual incrementalism along the lines of the strategy the left has been using.
What DOESN'T work is radical instant change. See: Hillarycare.
People here seem to want radical instant change, and what's worse, they reject incrementalist change even if it moves in the direction that they favor, because it's not radical enough. I think that's nuts.
Roy's plan is not great but it is better than what we have now. If I had to choose between Roy's plan and the status quo, I'd choose Roy's plan. Wouldn't you?
And then we continue pushing to the right of Roy's plan.
That is part of the reason why I don't really come here much anymore. I just grew tired of people demanding instant radical change. It's not going to happen so the entire exercise is futile.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 12:17 PM (9GG/0)

482 Viscous fluid
Posted by: Village
----------------------

Quite possibly glycerin-filled.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:18 PM (/GgDU)

483 Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 12:13 PM (5DM9u)

After the fall of a major society... Strong men often come to power by promising stability.

THAT is the exact point where we must be paying attention IMO. Because whatever promises are made at that point.... ie does he promise Free Shit, or promise to support Producers... is going to be the tipping point...

Which is why I, for one, want the producers thinking about this...

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 14, 2014 12:18 PM (84gbM)

484 Hillary's No Good Rotten Horrible Summer

Posted by: The Great White Snark at August 14, 2014 12:18 PM (gIh5T)

485 Ahh CNN

"Ferguson located just outside of St. Louis"

If by "Just outside" you mean "in."

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 12:18 PM (HDwDg)

486 What WORKS is the gradual incrementalism along the lines of the strategy the left has been using.

I have never seen this work for the Right. I think it's because every move to the right makes things work a little better, and then the Left claims credit for it.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 12:19 PM (YvHmx)

487 Romeo13:

Because the one family that owns the Federal Reserve, lock stock and barrel, is not shy about buying politicians.

The Bank of England + income tax model made them stupidly wealthy after 1815. They simply executed the same model in the US a hundred years later.

And it will have the same effect on the dollar. No currency can survive a century of debasing for profit.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:20 PM (0zVEV)

488 "Quite possibly glycerin-filled."

With this crowd?


No.


Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:20 PM (OXMrX)

489 Obama presser moved to 11:25CT and

@KMOXKilleen

Governor Nixon running 25 minutes late for scheduled appearance at church on Ferguson crisis.


Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 12:21 PM (v0/PR)

490 @481

Obamacare *is* "radical instant change"

None of it's crap existed ten years ago.

For Pete's sake, it isn't even fully implemented yet!!!

The insurance companies apparently need some time to generate premium levels for new plans.

Tell them they have 6 months, and obliterate all traces of Obama's crap sandwich.

How, EXACTLY, is that going to be any more disruptive than the implementation of O-care that still remains to be done?

Posted by: Troll Feeder at August 14, 2014 12:22 PM (LCafD)

491 This is a powerful read over at The American Spectator.

THE COLLAPSE OF THE LIBERAL WORLD ORDER

yep

http://spectator.org/articles/60245/collapse-liberal-world-order

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 12:22 PM (IXrOn)

492 Ahh CNN



"Ferguson located just outside of St. Louis"



If by "Just outside" you mean "in."



It's actually in South America.

Right next to Hong Kong

Posted by: CNN Geographic Accuracy Dept. at August 14, 2014 12:22 PM (OXMrX)

493 I have never seen this work for the Right.

It is working right now when it comes to abortion.

Abortions are way down and there are more pro-life people now than there were back in the 1970's and 1980's.

It is also working right now when it comes to gun rights.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 12:23 PM (9GG/0)

494
And it will have the same effect on the dollar. No currency can survive a century of debasing for profit.


Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:20 PM (0zVEV)


That, and they bought into Keynes...

Keynes believed that Savings was not investing... he wanted that money spent... that money flow was the really important thing.... not saving and using that money to invest...

Note, the Interest rate on savings accounts, is well below the rate of inflation.... due to the Fed Res policy.

We are about to see the implosion of the Keynesian model.... as the EU and US economies go under in a sea of unsustainable debt...

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 14, 2014 12:23 PM (84gbM)

495 Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 12:23 PM (9GG/0

Still not sure that the abortion thing isn't just abortion lovers self selecting out of the world.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 12:24 PM (HDwDg)

496 Hey jwest, the kiddie's table beckons.

Posted by: Roscoe at August 14, 2014 12:25 PM (MIovV)

497 481
Much like Patton in WWII it is damn time we "read their book" and start doing what works...

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 12:03 PM (5DM9u)
What WORKS is the gradual incrementalism along the lines of the strategy the left has been using.
What DOESN'T work is radical instant change. See: Hillarycare.
People here seem to want radical instant change, and what's worse, they reject incrementalist change even if it moves in the direction that they favor, because it's not radical enough. I think that's nuts.
Roy's plan is not great but it is better than what we have now. If I had to choose between Roy's plan and the status quo, I'd choose Roy's plan. Wouldn't you?
And then we continue pushing to the right of Roy's plan.
That is part of the reason why I don't really come here much anymore. I just grew tired of people demanding instant radical change. It's not going to happen so the entire exercise is futile.
Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 12:17 PM (9GG/0)

Gradual change in reverse is now impossible.

Push hard for the Republic you truly want.

Doing so will make it easier to create that republic after the collapse.

Posted by: eman at August 14, 2014 12:25 PM (5PIzd)

498 It's not as if unsustainable debt is unsustainable.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 12:25 PM (aW/1n)

499 It is also working right now when it comes to gun rights.
--
Gun rights victories have mostly come from SCOTUS rulings, not winning at the ballot box -- at least not in Democrat controlled states and cities. They've been forced by the courts to do things they would never vote for.

We've won with gun rights in blue states same way they've won with gay marriage in red states -- by the almighty black-robed ones.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 12:25 PM (ZPrif)

500 What the fucktard is this shit?


http://tinyurl.com/le9ytww


Stories submitted through this web form, along with your name and any photos you upload, may be featured on WhiteHouse.gov and posted on White House social media channels.


Betcha mine won't

Posted by: RWC - he who likes guns and boobehs and has a goatee at August 14, 2014 12:26 PM (fWAjv)

501 So no obama?

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:26 PM (9+ccr)

502 Keynes is just a tool.

Any excuse to debase the currency will do. Be the first person to get the loans used to bring currency into existence out of thin air.

Use the profits to buy real assets and gold.

Buy up everything that isn't nailed down after the resulting crash.

Wash, rinse, and repeat.

( there was one instance, at the depth of the Weimar Republic's currency crash, of an entire block of downtown Berlin being purchased for 25 ounces of gold ... )

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:26 PM (0zVEV)

503 He's on dope dealer's savings time.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 12:27 PM (aW/1n)

504 "Gun rights victories have mostly come from SCOTUS rulings, not winning
at the ballot box -- at least not in Democrat controlled states and
cities. They've been forced by the courts to do things they would never
vote for."

There is some good news on the election front


http://tinyurl.com/qz6dn3h

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:28 PM (OXMrX)

505 #POTUS remarks pushed to 11:40


Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 12:28 PM (v0/PR)

506 It's not as if unsustainable debt is unsustainable.
Posted by: Boss
-------------------------

Clearly, what is called for is 'renewable debt'.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:28 PM (/GgDU)

507 #POTUS remarks pushed to 11:40

Posted by: Tami
-----------------

Uh..., it's 12:34 now...?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:29 PM (/GgDU)

508 Haven't read it yet but Rand Paul op-ed on Ferguson...in Time:

http://tinyurl.com/pd5hj2p

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 12:29 PM (v0/PR)

509 chemjeff, sorry, but WTF "radical change"?

The "status quo" is, as I have sarcastically noted above, barely in existence, due to the unworkability and unpopularity and certain disastrous impact of actually implementing the "reforms". Yet - it would be "radical change" to actually repeal the things that aren't even being implemented?

And bullshit on the "gradualist" disinformation. There was no multi-decade gradualist build-up to the individual mandate, or the massive (devastating) distortions of insurance terms that have essentially instantly destroyed the private insurance market - and on and on. Pro tip: there's a reason that the program isn't being implemented, it's because IT is the radical change, and the Dems are terrified of the political repercussions of implementation.

chemjeff, not saying coming here is the answer, but you oughta go somewhere that you don't get the bizarre impression that an unworkable radical disruption that is so bad and unpopular most of its has been unilaterally suspended by its authors is, somehow, simultaneously, an unassailable "status quo" we can only hope to chip away at for decades.

I mean, WTF?

Posted by: rhomboid at August 14, 2014 12:29 PM (afQnV)

510 #POTUS remarks pushed to 11:40

So noon CT...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:29 PM (9+ccr)

511 Uh..., it's 12:34 now...?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:29 PM (/GgDU)

CT

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 12:29 PM (v0/PR)

512 Booze delivery by underwear models.


Can't see anything bad happening here.


http://tinyurl.com/n2nv89a

Posted by: RWC - he who likes guns and boobehs and has a goatee at August 14, 2014 12:30 PM (fWAjv)

513 Tami - I tend to forget that there is any country outside of The Southeast.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:30 PM (/GgDU)

514 Vaguely related to Ferguson.
http://is.gd/ym4Ebi

Plainfield is home to Muslim Brotherhood collaborators Islamic Society of North America. Yay.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6178

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at August 14, 2014 12:30 PM (/kI1Q)

515 "CT"

What about Connecticut?


Posted by: Low Information Moron at August 14, 2014 12:30 PM (OXMrX)

516 What DOESN'T work is radical instant change. See: Hillarycare.
People here seem to want radical instant change, and what's worse, they reject incrementalist change even if it moves in the direction that they favor, because it's not radical enough. I think that's nuts.
***
You make the presumption that if you want to move say "5 political units to the right" that the best strategy is to ask to move 5 political units to the right.

The Republicans used to do this (now of course they just argue for what the left wants) and it failed just about every time.

Why does it fail?

Well there are two problems with it.

1) If the Left demands you move 10 in their direction and you demand 5 in yours...where are you going to end up?

2) The LIVs don't care about the details of politics. So, for example, if the Republicans were to offer to remove capital gains taxes, reduce them, or reform them, the number of LIVs that would then oppose the Republicans because they oppose a change below rate X is trivial.

And in fact you'll note that the last actual conservative success in domestic policy - welfare reform - was much more "radical" then incremental.

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 12:31 PM (5DM9u)

517 RAND PAUL: WE MUST DEMILITARIZE POLICE...



Opportunist cock sucker.

Posted by: Thin Veneer Of Civility at August 14, 2014 12:31 PM (knfPD)

518 Costanza, tiny but significant correction: victory for the marriage-redefinition lobby has come almost exclusively via judicial tyranny, even in "blue" states (CA being the most obvious - and outlandish - example).
It just reinforces the point you make.

Posted by: rhomboid at August 14, 2014 12:31 PM (afQnV)

519

Oh, Good: ISIS Supporters Now Openly Recruiting in Downtown London

...

ISIS supporters have been handing out leaflets to Oxford Street shoppers encouraging them to leave Britain for its new Islamic state.
The radicals stood in front of posters declaring 'the dawn of a new era has begun' in reference to the caliphate and their literature praised the 'sacrifices' made in the Middle East.

Scotland Yard has said today it is investigating whether the men were breaking terror laws. ...


townhall

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 12:32 PM (IXrOn)

520 Conservative incrementalism has also been working when it comes to K-12 education, witness the growth in home schooling.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 12:32 PM (9GG/0)

521 Surf and Turf and dancing with Mo. Good Times. Who's got some GasX? What press conference I want to golf!

Posted by: Preznit Urkel X at August 14, 2014 12:33 PM (32Ze2)

522 I have a plan for a health care system, That Will Work. It was demostrated in the movie "Logan's Run"! There problem solved.

Posted by: Paladin at August 14, 2014 12:33 PM (LtaK3)

523 feedamerica.org

Wow. Australia is shipping humanitarian food assistance to the 17 million hungry children in the US. Who knew.

Michelle Obama is starving school kids, and the aussies are sending in food relief. What a country!

heard on WBAP online. the guy speaks with an aussie accent, so it must be the Australians shipping in the food.

Posted by: Crash Harliquein at August 14, 2014 12:34 PM (6ukV5)

524 521 Surf and Turf and dancing with Mo. Good Times. Who's got some GasX? What press conference I want to golf!

Did you see that picture on Drudge of him partying? Really? Sooo Presidential...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:34 PM (9+ccr)

525
Still believe there's a fued between clintons and obama?

It's all bullshit.

Posted by: Soothsayer of The Righteous And Harmonious Fists (-412 days left until climate chaos) at August 14, 2014 12:34 PM (xvH+/)

526 520 Conservative incrementalism has also been working when it comes to K-12 education, witness the growth in home schooling.


Posted by: chemjeff at August 14, 2014 12:32 PM (9GG/0)


and Common Core...

oh.... wait....

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 14, 2014 12:34 PM (84gbM)

527 That's Congressman John Lewis, you racist.

John Nolte @NolteNC
John Lewis on MSNBC calls for Obama to declare Martial Law on #Ferguson.

My GOD.

Posted by: Eric Holder at August 14, 2014 12:34 PM (ZPrif)

528 Common Corpse.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 12:35 PM (aW/1n)

529 Still not sure that the abortion thing isn't just abortion lovers self selecting out of the world.

I know you know the gung-ho pro-aborts focus their efforts on coaxing normal people's kids into it with misinformation...

As for incrementalism...you can't get an abortion at a clinic that's been shut down for not passing a state sanitation inspection.

Posted by: HR braucht ein Bier at August 14, 2014 12:35 PM (/kI1Q)

530 @NolteNC: John Lewis on MSNBC calls for Obama to declare Martial Law on #Ferguson.


Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 12:35 PM (v0/PR)

531 "ISIS supporters have been handing out leaflets to Oxford Street
shoppers encouraging them to leave Britain for its new Islamic state.

The radicals stood in front of posters declaring 'the dawn of a new
era has begun' in reference to the caliphate and their literature
praised the 'sacrifices' made in the Middle East."


Hopefully, they have full color photos of the beheadings and murders on sandwich board on the public sidewalks.


Shove their barbarity in peoples faces.

Sooner or later, it has to dawn on people that there is no reasoning with these animals.

Posted by: Low Information Moron at August 14, 2014 12:35 PM (OXMrX)

532 Soothsayer: There is animosity there, but Hillary needs the Chicago Machine to win.

She'll keep a lid on it until she gets elected or defeated.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:36 PM (0zVEV)

533 Did you see that picture on Drudge of him partying? Really? Sooo Presidential...
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:34 PM (9+ccr)
_____________
Clearly you're commenting stupidly......

Posted by: Preznit Urkel X at August 14, 2014 12:36 PM (32Ze2)

534 RAND PAUL: WE MUST DEMILITARIZE POLICE...
***
I'm not sure I want him as president, but I sure as hell want him to be in a position where a conservative president can sic him on the left.

When Rand Paul is "on" he can slice the left in a way few others do. Ironically, because he seems to actual follow conservative libertarian debate instead of taking the spoon feeding from the State Media (like most of the GOPe).

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 12:36 PM (5DM9u)

535 Obamacare isn't ever going to go away. There are now 5 million people on it. And no welfare program with 5 million participants is ever going to go away.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at August 14, 2014 12:36 PM (0LHZx)

536 Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 12:35 PM (v0/PR

WHAT THE EVER LOVING FUCK?!

No.
It's time to draw down.

Draw down quickly.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 12:36 PM (HDwDg)

537 This thread is getting a bit smelly. Do you think Ace got stuck at the Ferguson protests last night?

Posted by: Chi-town Jerry at August 14, 2014 12:36 PM (4+IgA)

538 530 @NolteNC: John Lewis on MSNBC calls for Obama to declare Martial Law on #Ferguson.

Wow. Wouldn't that crimp the style of his homeys?

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:36 PM (9+ccr)

539 Conservative incrementalism has also been working when it comes to K-12 education, witness the growth in home schooling.

--

Home schooling has grown, but private school has shrunk even more -- a higher % are in public schools than 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago.

Big think is huge decline in parochial school. The "all Catholic priests are rapists" lie the media pushed for the past 20 years was a thinly veiled campaign to kill Catholic schools. It was pretty successful, enrollment is way down.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at August 14, 2014 12:36 PM (ZPrif)

540 Off, you stupid sock

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:36 PM (OXMrX)

541 Okay 11:41 CT...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:37 PM (9+ccr)

542 The riots will continue until Israel ends the occupation of Ferguson.

Posted by: eman at August 14, 2014 12:37 PM (5PIzd)

543 Jay Nixon speaking....blah, blah, blah.

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 12:37 PM (v0/PR)

544 That's Congressman John Lewis, you racist.
-------------------

That would be the same John Lewis who was subjected to racist cat-calls and degradation at the Tea Party Rally in D.C.

Dammit! No managed to get a recording, or video, but still...

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:38 PM (/GgDU)

545 Hell.... I only went to bed 6 hours ago. Won't you let me eat my waffle?

Posted by: Preznit Urkel X at August 14, 2014 12:38 PM (32Ze2)

546 John Nolte @NolteNC 1m
On MSNBC: Rep. Lewis complains about militarized police, calls for Obama to declare martial law and federalize MO Nat. Guard.

#Yikes

John Nolte @NolteNC 3m
Rep. Lewis is on MSNBC calls for bigger military solution in #Ferguson: Obama declaring Martial Law.

"Federalize MO Natl. Guard"

#noJoke

@repjohnlewis on MSNBC now: "President Obama should use the authority of his office to declare martial law" in #Ferguson

Posted by: Tweet the Tweets at August 14, 2014 12:39 PM (ZPrif)

547 "Dammit! No managed to...."

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:39 PM (/GgDU)

548 Noon is the new 7am

Posted by: Preznit Urkel X at August 14, 2014 12:39 PM (32Ze2)

549 The riots will continue until Israel ends the occupation of Ferguson.


Or ends the rioters.

Posted by: rickb223 at August 14, 2014 12:39 PM (0Um7l)

550 I have no idea what Jay Nixon is talking about.

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 12:39 PM (v0/PR)

551 Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 12:37 PM (v0/PR)

I told AllenG he wouldn't declare martial law.

He's feckless and he's been neutered by the legislature and he knows it.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 12:40 PM (HDwDg)

552 I'm sure a federalized NG will have the same rules of engagement that have been so successful in Afghanistan.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:40 PM (0zVEV)

553 I know you know the gung-ho pro-aborts focus their efforts on coaxing normal people's kids into it with misinformation...
****
There is a certain sort of miserable person that wants to make sure he or she shares that misery with as many other people as possible.

And abortion activists tend to be these sorts of people.

Though perhaps not as many of them as the abortion activists who just want to make sure there are fewer dark skinned people in the world.

Hell, can you believe we have a Supreme Court justice who admits to holding this latter view? I would have loved to see someone in the GOPe engaging on this point in the middle of say Akin-a-palooza.

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 12:40 PM (5DM9u)

554
Is obama gonna urge "both sides to cool it," the master community diplomat organizer scholar that he is?

Posted by: Soothsayer of The Righteous And Harmonious Fists (-412 days left until climate chaos) at August 14, 2014 12:40 PM (xvH+/)

555 I thought that the Israelis were simply blockading the children of Ferguson from receiving needed foodstuff and medicine.

I had no idea they had actually occupied the area.


Fookin' Jooos

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:40 PM (OXMrX)

556 547 Dammit! "No one managed to...."

Third time the charm?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:40 PM (/GgDU)

557 Militarized police must be the new talking point...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:40 PM (9+ccr)

558 We must get humanitarian aid to the youths of Ferguson.

Posted by: Preznit Urkel X at August 14, 2014 12:40 PM (32Ze2)

559 I thought that the Israelis were simply blockading the children of Ferguson from receiving needed foodstuff and medicine.
----------------------

.. and desperately needed concrete.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at August 14, 2014 12:41 PM (/GgDU)

560 The pro-abortion crowd needs to follow Hitler's model, and recruit children ... since they don't breed.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:41 PM (0zVEV)

561 Send the Ferguson racist rioters to Iraq.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 12:41 PM (aW/1n)

562 552 I'm sure a federalized NG will have the same rules of engagement that have been so successful in Afghanistan.
Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:40 PM (0zVEV)


They'll be facing down American citizens so orders will be shoot to kill.

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 12:41 PM (mx5oN)

563 We must get humanitarian aid to the youths of Ferguson.
I am authorizing a drop of big screens and Nikes as we speak..

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:42 PM (9+ccr)

564 "We must get humanitarian aid to the youths of Ferguson."

Perhaps something on the order of an airdrop?

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:42 PM (OXMrX)

565 The "all Catholic priests are rapists" lie the media pushed for the past 20 years was a thinly veiled campaign to kill Catholic schools.
***
If I recall the numbers, outside of family members the second most common source of this sort of child abuse are...public school teachers...

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 12:42 PM (5DM9u)

566 She solution to militarized police forces is martial law!

Wow, the stupid is fucking painful on this planet today.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 12:42 PM (61Yy5)

567 I've heard that the Jooooos have conducted an air strike on the Bethel AME Church in Ferguson

Posted by: Preznit Urkel X at August 14, 2014 12:42 PM (32Ze2)

568 Obama should declare martial law in Ferguson.
We'll see how it goes, and like magic there will be peace.

So obviously we should take that policy to the national level and peace will reign supreme throughout the land for ever and ever amen.

Still an empty [chair] podium and silent teleprompter.

any minute now......any minute...

Posted by: Crash Harliquein at August 14, 2014 12:42 PM (6ukV5)

569 Fuck it, I need some bacon. Lunch be calling my name.

Posted by: akula_51 at August 14, 2014 12:43 PM (61Yy5)

570 I wonder how a flat screen holds up to being dropped from 15,000 feet?

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 12:43 PM (aW/1n)

571 I said 10 minutes late so I still have a chance..

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:43 PM (9+ccr)

572 Music Interlude:

Israel - Our Little Space:

http://tinyurl.com/ksonuve

Posted by: LoneStarHeeb (Psalm 109:7- 8) at August 14, 2014 12:43 PM (BZAd3)

573 Ok, that was either the two minute warning, or she flashed us the 'peace' sign.

any second.....now the Emperor will speak...

Posted by: Crash Harliquein at August 14, 2014 12:44 PM (6ukV5)

574 "We must get humanitarian aid to the youths of Ferguson."

Perhaps something on the order of an airdrop?



San chutes.

Posted by: rickb223 at August 14, 2014 12:44 PM (0Um7l)

575 Insomniac: Unless those Americans are involved in looting.

Then shooting will result in a visit to Leavenworth.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:44 PM (0zVEV)

576 557 Militarized police must be the new talking point...
Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:40 PM (9+ccr)

I've had a longstanding problem with the increasing militarization of the police force. That aside, in Ferguson, just how effective have they been in protecting lives and property? My impression is, not very. I could be wrong, based on the limited information I have seen.

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 12:44 PM (mx5oN)

577
Whatever obama says today, believe the opposite.

Posted by: Soothsayer of The Righteous And Harmonious Fists (-412 days left until climate chaos) at August 14, 2014 12:45 PM (xvH+/)

578 The preznit is near.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 12:45 PM (aW/1n)

579 I've had a longstanding problem with the increasing militarization of the police force. That aside, in Ferguson, just how effective have they been in protecting lives and property? My impression is, not very. I could be wrong, based on the limited information I have seen.
Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 12:44 PM

True. I just think The Ferguons police are in over their heads...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:46 PM (9+ccr)

580 "Whatever obama says today, believe the opposite."



I am lying

Posted by: Preznit Airball McShankputt at August 14, 2014 12:46 PM (OXMrX)

581 578 The preznit is near.
Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 12:45 PM (aW/1n)

Authentic frontier gibberish!

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 12:46 PM (mx5oN)

582 "The preznit is near."

You are eaten by a Grue.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:46 PM (0zVEV)

583 Jackhole up!!

Posted by: RWC - he who likes guns and boobehs and has a goatee at August 14, 2014 12:46 PM (fWAjv)

584 The "all Catholic priests are rapists" lie the media pushed for the past 20 years was a thinly veiled campaign to kill Catholic schools.

-
The only two institutions standing in the way of all powerful government is the family and the church and they are trying as hard as they can to kill both those.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at August 14, 2014 12:46 PM (gIh5T)

585 Prez is talking....Iraq, "I order...babble, babble, babble..."

Posted by: Tami at August 14, 2014 12:46 PM (v0/PR)

586 Ferguons police

Ferguson...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:47 PM (9+ccr)

587 OMG--the poor President--he's had to take a break from his vacation!

Posted by: Tara Reads! at August 14, 2014 12:47 PM (RJMhd)

588 580 "Whatever obama says today, believe the opposite."



I am lying
Posted by: Preznit Airball McShankputt at August 14, 2014 12:46 PM (OXMrX)

Mind. Blown.

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 12:47 PM (mx5oN)

589 Mission accomplished.

Posted by: Crash Harliquein at August 14, 2014 12:47 PM (6ukV5)

590 Do Ferguons speak Austrian?

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:48 PM (0zVEV)

591 582 "The preznit is near."

You are eaten by a Grue.
Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:46 PM (0zVEV)

Well, it was pitch black.

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 12:48 PM (mx5oN)

592 Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 12:44 PM (mx5oN)

As it turns out, the police force was in worst shape training wise than I ever realized.

granted we don't exactly have this kinda stuff happening...well ever.

But even I was stunned by how poorly they handled it.

As it goes, the way rioting happens you can't really prevent it. It's an overwhelming of the law and order, you can only disperse it and minimize it.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) And father to be in 5 months! at August 14, 2014 12:48 PM (HDwDg)

593 Ferguons speak Austrian


I know....

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:48 PM (9+ccr)

594
I am lying

Ha! You think you got me? Wrong.

You see, obama is incapable of uttering such a phrase. It is unpossible for him to do so.

Posted by: Soothsayer of The Righteous And Harmonious Fists (-412 days left until climate chaos) at August 14, 2014 12:48 PM (xvH+/)

595 WTF?

Did I fucking hear him correctly? Did he say he saved the Yazidis and therefore no more aid and we'll be pulling out the advisers????

Posted by: RWC - he who likes guns and boobehs and has a goatee at August 14, 2014 12:49 PM (fWAjv)

596
You see, obama is incapable of uttering such a phrase. It is unpossible for him to do so.

And he is also incapable of admitting to being wrong...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:49 PM (9+ccr)

597 As it goes, the way rioting happens you can't really prevent it. It's an overwhelming of the law and order, you can only disperse it and minimize it.

In a situation like that I think citizens should be authorized to use deadly force in protection of their lives, homes and property.

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 12:49 PM (mx5oN)

598 DRUDGE REPORT @DRUDGE_REPORT
Holder dispatches same team that inflamed Trayvon case... http://drudge.tw/1Ah1nvi

Posted by: Tweet the Tweets at August 14, 2014 12:50 PM (ZPrif)

599 IMO, the police should not have access to any equipment that regular citizens do not.

There are occasionally needs for something above what the regular police can do (think the movie Heat), so perhaps instead of militarizing the police across the board each state should have a rapid reaction NG group that would fill this role.

Since you'd need the Governor to call them up it would be harder to use them when they aren't needed, and a political office holder would be personally responsible...

It would mean the cops would have to be more thoughtful about how they engage in potentially dangerous situations...but that seems to be a benefit to me. Perhaps we could take as many cops off speeding details as needed to make sure they've got the time to plan correctly.

Posted by: 18-1 at August 14, 2014 12:50 PM (5DM9u)

600 take a step back and think about how we will be moving forward

Posted by: Crash Harliquein at August 14, 2014 12:50 PM (6ukV5)

601
Did I fucking hear him correctly? Did he say he saved the Yazidis and therefore no more aid and we'll be pulling out the advisers??

What was left of them...

Posted by: helloit's me Donna and I know nuthink! at August 14, 2014 12:50 PM (9+ccr)

602 Ok, I probably heard incorrectly.

Was watching at work so didn't have the sound up high.

Posted by: RWC - he who likes guns and boobehs and has a goatee at August 14, 2014 12:50 PM (fWAjv)

603 Insomniac:

The federalized NG will be enforcing an allowed RoE for mere citizens.

Posted by: Kristophr at August 14, 2014 12:51 PM (0zVEV)

604 Just as the members of ISIS will never be integrated into a modern society so the social fabric of the United States has so been degraded that you will never build the society we could, should have had by now. I spent part of last night reading comments by "conservative" owners of Volt automobiles on their gm sponsored volt owners site.
the people who claimed to be conservatives were absolutely sure that having taxpayers subsidize the manufacture of their Volt "saved" thousands of tax dollars. The $7,500 tax credit most of them received to buy their cars was described as "free" because you see, it was a credit that would be made up elsewhere.
Todays voter doesn't even understand basic balancing of the checkbook. My libertarian relative, normally no dummy, says it is perfectly rational and smart for the treasury to print fake money and the Fed to buy it to prop up all the failing financial institutions to manage our economy and "save" the Middle class.
This is madness and it is already past the tipping point. The question is how far down we go and do we ever recover into a sane society. Stepping on the gas when we are already about to hit a wall will not help.

Posted by: Daybrother at August 14, 2014 12:51 PM (51bfA)

605 just how effective have they been in protecting lives and property?

That's hard work. Arresting unarmed taxpaying citizens is much much easier.

Posted by: Thin Veneer Of Civility at August 14, 2014 12:51 PM (knfPD)

606
remember when FONZIE had trouble saying I was wrong?

I was w-w-w-w-r-r-......

Posted by: sooothiewing plover at August 14, 2014 12:51 PM (xvH+/)

607 Those Yazids we dropped crates on no longer require food and water.

Posted by: Boss Moss at August 14, 2014 12:52 PM (aW/1n)

608

I think I saw on Twitchy earlier today, that someone is blaming Israel for Ferguson...

Because the police got some kind of training, or some such thing.

I kid you not.

It's the Joooos!

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 14, 2014 12:52 PM (IXrOn)

609 As it goes, the way rioting happens you can't really prevent it. It's an overwhelming of the law and order,



Cloward-Piven. Overwhelm.
You would need a 1 to 1 ratio minimum with the authority to crack skulls.

Posted by: rickb223 at August 14, 2014 12:52 PM (0Um7l)

610 In conclusion -- you're welcome America.

Posted by: Barack Obama at August 14, 2014 12:52 PM (ZPrif)

611 The UK police are pretty good at riot control. "Stop, or I'll say, stop again!"

And worse comes to worst, then they can retire to the police station for Chunky Monkey ice cream.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at August 14, 2014 12:52 PM (Ec6wH)

612 ISIS supporters have been handing out leaflets to Oxford Street shoppers encouraging them to leave Britain for its new Islamic state.

Oddly, that's a program I could get behind.

Posted by: toby928(C) at August 14, 2014 12:53 PM (aqMeV)

613 Well, with Holder's Justice Department involved, we may finally have peace in our time.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:53 PM (OXMrX)

614 DrewM.

This is how liberals work.
= This is how CORRUPTION works.

Equal opportunity blood suckers.

Not funny, your illustration between liberals and conservatives when only referencing Democrat and Republican party affiliation.

And so far as the Republican Leadership are concerned, conservatism ist verboten.

They're all neoconservatives, now, the amalgam of Trotsky and Hitler, global corporatists ueber alles, Republicans and Democrats.

last thread: Orban's point is valid.

American discourse is what has progressively become radicalized since 1990, abruptly more so since Obama.

In Hungary, given how the West exploits for EU benefit for the US benefit, at Hungary's expense (at any people's expense, we all being mere "commodities" for exchange and exploitation now), the Americans who read headlines are outraged to hear that 20 years of liberalism's corruption limiting Hungarian prosperity is being transitioned towards response to Hungarian citizenry rights not being abused by larger forces set in advance to wipe away a government's responsibility to its own citizens.

Posted by: panzernashorn at August 14, 2014 12:53 PM (TfAS/)

615
But it would preserve the ACA's guarantee that every American can purchase coverage regardless of preexisting conditions.

So...in other words: death spiral?

I mean, why would a healthy person of any stripe go out and purchase health insurance before they actually need it? the only people on it will be the sick, and maybe some older people who don't yet qualify for medicaid.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at August 14, 2014 12:53 PM (1hM1d)

616 613 Well, with Holder's Justice Department involved, we may finally have peace in our time.
Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at August 14, 2014 12:53 PM (OXMrX)

The peace of subjugation. Or the grave.

Posted by: Insomniac at August 14, 2014 12:54 PM (mx5oN)

617 I am on all sides of this terrible situation, and no one is wrong, we all must realize our need for healing for peace and for calm for open and transparent process to see that justice is done, and

Federal agents will work with local police to see that this is done.

Posted by: Crash Harliquein at August 14, 2014 12:54 PM (6ukV5)

618 Nood.

Posted by: rickb223 at August 14, 2014 12:55 PM (0Um7l)

619 If that cop in Ferguson is white, he's fucked.

Posted by: Crash Harliquein at August 14, 2014 12:56 PM (6ukV5)

620 "That aside, in Ferguson, just how effective have they been in protecting lives and property? My impression is, not very. I could be wrong, based on the limited information I have seen."

That's because "militarized" police act like police. Because "looking badass" doesn't make them any more cruel. It is an argument about nothing.

The United States grants the government the authority to use militia to break up riots. No question.

I have not seen any mention today in the center-left online press about Molotov cocktails being thrown at the police. To hear them talk, mean military-style cops are just busting up sidewalk conversations with tear gas for no reason.


Posted by: Chris Balsz at August 14, 2014 01:00 PM (HZLYB)

621 The Missus has been on a 3-city business trip, the last of which was St. Charles, MO. I've had a map of the St. Louis area in my browser for three days now. Ferguson borders the St. Louis International Airport. Been an edge-of-the-seat kinda week, so far.

BTW: The Missus informs me via the miracle of the innertubes that she has just boarded a plane to come home. Good BYE, google map of St. Louis.

Posted by: jwpaine at August 14, 2014 01:06 PM (68O4K)

622 Republican Libertarian


Consider, the liberal democracy is based on the premise that you are free to do aything that does not violate other's freedom.

But who determine's what the other's freedom is?

The most powerful do.

Exploitation, corruption of Classical Liberalism into authoritarianism empowering oligarchs.

Rather, than such "liberal democracy" benefiting the most powerful, you are free to do anything that does not violate other's freedom.

That is called illiberalism (Orban) which is not to invoke authoritarianism, nor loss of constitutional liberties -- but to function in a symmetrically balanced manner respecting individuals, communities and the nation's sovereign interests.

Libertarians (Classical Liberals) appreciate the distinction between 'liberal democracy' and 'liberal republic' -- more salient to the American Experience.

The Progressive Marxist Wilsonian agenda for eugenics and dismissal of the US Constitution propagandized that the Constitution and Bill of Rights are outmoded. Get over it. Go fight wars to end all wars. And for the past century, our politicians, judges and administrators have indeed made policy such a post-constitutional era.

Progressive irony: the Constitution is dead, requiring its removal from existence in order to remake it as a "living, breathing" corporation; to deny any sovereignty to any individual, community, state. RISK? Resistance is futile: there is only a global oligarchy. To the victorious mergers all spoils.

You can be certain of spoil.

Posted by: panzernashorn at August 14, 2014 01:15 PM (TfAS/)

623 Drew,

tl;dr ... Drastically reduce the funding, agencies, and responsibilities of the federal government to approximate what the Founding Fathers intended. When the leftists squeal, ignore them.

Posted by: ToursLepantoVienna at August 14, 2014 01:28 PM (miAG4)

624 -This is how liberals win. They spend decades trying to get something and conservatives stop fighting against it and start trying to make it work six months later.-

See ghey marriage

Posted by: fromabroad at August 14, 2014 01:47 PM (rnV3B)

625 What Obama intends to do is to turn health insurance, which works well for most people, into a welfare system, which works badly for everyone. You'll have to wait months to get an MRI, years to get that heart operation, but you will be swimming in social justice.

Posted by: Tantor at August 14, 2014 01:47 PM (659DL)

626 Oh good, my daily dose of "America is being destroyed and both parties are on board with that" is here.

I needed that.

I've been so depressed over Robin Willams.

Not.

Posted by: Meremortal at August 14, 2014 01:54 PM (1Y+hH)

627 FSA rules have changed as of next year -- not use or lose it any more. Or so my employer tells me.

Posted by: BJ54 at August 14, 2014 02:40 PM (STpkO)

628 Karl Denninger wrote a piece earlier this year about a guaranteed-income type of thing. See his post "By the Numbers" at Market-Ticker.org (dated 5/19/14)

[ I hesitate to post a link - "the system" usually winds up shrieking at me - but

-- maybe it'll work this time. ]

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=3355344

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at August 14, 2014 08:30 PM (GGlge)

629 Say you're starting to consider being for a guaranteed income, and then link to an article that lists all the reasons why that would be a bad idea, or at least much more complicated than it appears. Classic Drew.

Posted by: Demosthenes at August 14, 2014 10:00 PM (kNw9i)

630 Obamacare didn't break the health care system, it just grinds it's heel on the already broken pieces. The whole model needs to be blown up.

Posted by: Coleridge at August 14, 2014 11:17 PM (1D4FS)

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