The Devil Never Sleeps: Dog-Fighting Finds A New Victim - [Niedermeyer's Dead Horse]

I've had another post ready, since Wednesday, but decided it might be too much of a "thinky" piece for the weekend. Hence, you now get dogs.

Sure, I know it's officially, "Caturday", but there's a good reason for the post. These folks can use your help and, knowing that there are copy-cats out there, inspired by the evil of others, perhaps the shelter in your own hometown could use a little help with security and, perhaps, you will be inspired to reach out to them.

Everyone remembers the fury associated with the Michael Vick case. Millions were outraged and took to the internet to express their rage and indignation at Vick, and his ilk, who would take joy in the suffering of another creature. Yet, once the Vick story died down, so did the outrage.

Dog-fighting, as in cock-fighting, is often viewed as a uniquely Southern evil but the truth is that it takes place in communities throughout the U.S. and, as we learned with Vick, is not limited to the backwoods slums where the soil is slick from chew and moonshine is the drink of choice.

Culture.

One of the most galling things about the Michael Vick case was the defense that it was an acceptable part of his culture. He suggested that it was part of his community at-large. This claim is complete and utter bullshit. A child will turn their face rather than watch someone or something in pain. The infliction of pain upon another living thing is not natural and not normal to most people. And it can't be argued that exposure to such deeds makes one accepting of it. After all, one must willingly participate in the event the first time, and then the second, and so on, before one develops a callous to the cruelty. The fact that one would subject themself to something so horrific and then continue to return until they had built up an adequate resistance to their natural recoil is absurd.

There is something evil that lurks within the men and women who would undertake to fight animal against animal and then torture, starve, and kill the losing animal. And the story you'll find linked below is, in essence, still a story about that evil, yet, it is even more appalling in that they sought to involve those persons who would experience the greatest revulsion at the act.

THIS happened just two days ago. And it pains me (frightens me!) to imagine the lack of humanity in those who could perpetrate the crime. One wonders how they treat the humans in their lives: How they raise their children.

And, to head off the argument that dog-fighting was an "acceptable" practice in Colonial times, let me state right here and now, I don't GAS. Lots of things were acceptable at one time, sometime long ago. That's simply not going to cut it.

If you can spare some change to help out the organization mentioned in the story above, please do. If you are so inclined, reach out to your local animal rescue organizations and offer to help out there, which is what I will do. At the very least, for the love of God, do not turn your head to such evil. If you know of cruelty to an animal please report it, as did moron Sifty, just a few days ago, when he reported his neighbors for chaining and starving their dogs. No matter what happens to the animal, in the end, it will be less cruel than starving or beating the animal.

At the very, very least... give your furry friend a great big hug today.

UPDATE: Feel free to bring yer politics here.

Posted by: Open Blogger at 04:21 PM



Comments

1 The correct meaning of dogfighting...

http://youtu.be/r-X-cibzcDk

Posted by: sven10077 at October 19, 2013 04:22 PM (9jfyN)

2 The correct meaning of dogfighting...

http://youtu.be/r-X-cibzcDk

***

THIS I can get on-board with!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 04:24 PM (DmNpO)

3 Que?

Posted by: shadow citizen at October 19, 2013 04:26 PM (gQKHE)

4 2 Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 04:24 PM (DmNpO)

It'd be nice if people who fight dogs could volunteer to be ground crew at William Tell...and by crew I mean "range personnel...."


Posted by: sven10077 at October 19, 2013 04:26 PM (9jfyN)

5 Good grief. What the hell is wrong with people?

Our cats never recovered from a break in we had.

One cat had crammed himself in behind our countertop microwave and the other had shoved herself as far back behind our washer/dryer as she could get. It took us hours to coax her out.

They went from being very friendly, playful cats to standoffish and very skittish. Not friendly at all.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at October 19, 2013 04:29 PM (GEICT)

6 Dog-fighting, as in cock-fighting, is often viewed

Cock on Cock action?

Sign me up!

Posted by: Barney Frank at October 19, 2013 04:31 PM (Vk2pI)

7 Comment from end of previous thread:

From the sidebar, I'd definitely recommend Daniel Hannan's writing and speeches. It's good stuff.

Two of his must watch speeches:

On the Civic Basis of the Anglosphere:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF5bGlbvmt8

The Secular Miracle of the English-speaking Peoples
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhVnHQVbtB8

Posted by: The Political Hat at October 19, 2013 04:32 PM (Vk2pI)

8 Cravendesires.blogspot.com and dogsbite.org are two very excellent resources concerning the carnage of dog fighting and pit bulls in general.

Posted by: lace_whig at October 19, 2013 04:34 PM (+OP3J)

9 Don't look at me!

I may support a lot of a different uses of animals, but fighting isn't really one of them.
(Although I Kill shelters don't bother me so much as long as it's done in a humane way.)

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 04:35 PM (GaqMa)

10 All the comments just got dumped in the previous threat by Oregon Muse…

Posted by: The Political Hat at October 19, 2013 04:37 PM (Vk2pI)

11 Cravendesires.blogspot.com and dogsbite.org are two very excellent resources concerning the carnage of dog fighting and pit bulls in general.

***

Thank you

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 04:38 PM (DmNpO)

12 They are back now.

The hamsters are having seizures it seems…

Posted by: The Political Hat at October 19, 2013 04:38 PM (Vk2pI)

13 Posted by: The Political Hat at October 19, 2013 04:38 PM (Vk2pI)

OM wrapped a page fold in a quote which it seems Pixy did not like.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 04:39 PM (GaqMa)

14 Posted by: The Political Hat at October 19, 2013 04:38 PM (Vk2pI)

OM wrapped a page fold in a quote which it seems Pixy did not like.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 04:39 PM (GaqMa)


That'll cost OM a weeks worth of hamster feed…

Posted by: The Political Hat at October 19, 2013 04:40 PM (Vk2pI)

15 The comments are back and the box has vanished.

People get squeamish talking about Elizabethan England where animal fighting was far more common. One would think after so many centuries later, we would be beyond this of idea of pitting animals to rend each other for our own enjoyment. Unlike a bullfighter, the humans have no real skin in this game. It's abuse pure and simple to satiate the sadistic side of some humans who want to prove they do have the power of life and death.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at October 19, 2013 04:42 PM (ntk8X)

16 12
They are back now.


The hamsters are having seizures it seems…

Posted by: The Political Hat at October 19, 2013 04:38 PM (Vk2pI)

Darned hamster fighting!

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at October 19, 2013 04:42 PM (WLywR)

17 The same leftists who vandalize fur coat stores remain quiet when a protected victim group engages in unspeakable animal cruelty

Because it's racist to condemn it, and it's better to turn away from horror than be called a racist

Posted by: kbdabear at October 19, 2013 04:44 PM (aTXUx)

18 He woke me up from a perfectly good nap and petted me!

Posted by: Shirley (DaveA's fat inside kitteh) at October 19, 2013 04:45 PM (DL2i+)

19 OT...Ace taking on George Snuffleufagus on teh Twittah.

Posted by: Captain Whitebread at October 19, 2013 04:46 PM (5J54Q)

20 5
Good grief. What the hell is wrong with people?



Our cats never recovered from a break in we had.



One cat had crammed himself in behind our countertop microwave and
the other had shoved herself as far back behind our washer/dryer as she
could get. It took us hours to coax her out.



They went from being very friendly, playful cats to standoffish and very skittish. Not friendly at all.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at October 19, 2013 04:29 PM

Cats and dogs have very keen senses of smell. They may still smell traces of the thugs who broke in and believe that they're still in danger

Posted by: kbdabear at October 19, 2013 04:47 PM (aTXUx)

21
Ace taking on George Snuffleufagus on teh Twittah.


It's best to just come out and confront your stalker. Good for Ace.

Posted by: garrett at October 19, 2013 04:48 PM (X6vCd)

22 Some pits went after an LOL and her little dog in Chicago the other day.

http://tinyurl.com/k8hh3kf

Killed the little dog, severely injured the LOL, bit up the girl who owned them and was trying to break it up.

Posted by: DaveA at October 19, 2013 04:48 PM (DL2i+)

23 Cats and dogs have very keen senses of smell. They may still smell traces of the thugs who broke in and believe that they're still in danger

Posted by: kbdabear at October 19, 2013 04:47 PM (aTXUx)



We were in that apt for another 2 years. Then moved to Florida. We were here for over a year and their behavior continued to deteriorate.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at October 19, 2013 04:48 PM (GEICT)

24 There are some vile people in the world. Years ago, when I was living in Germany, I got a rescue Greyhound from Spain. On the way to us, the Greys were kept in a shelter in Barcelona. During the night, someone broke into the shelter and SAWED THE FORELEGS OFF of four to five dogs. There are no words for such disgusting behavior.

And you should see what the Spaniards do to Greyhounds who don't hunt well. They do things like hang the dog so that their feet almost touch the ground, but not quite and let them slowly strangle to death.

Or how about taking a live dog who didn't win the race, tie a stone around their neck and throw them into a lake. That happened, I am ashamed to say, in my ancestral land of Ireland.

No dog, no animal, deserves such treatment, but if you have ever met a greyhound, you will be left scratching your head wondering how such a sweet, gentle dog could inspire such horror. I know all about those dogs. I have 6 of them!

I'm not just picking on Spain. Greyhound racing in the USA should be banned. Many, many dogs are killed every year cause they don't cut the mustard. And many more live in horrible conditions. Cooped up in cages for the vast majority of the day. It's the dirty little secret of the racing industry. I used to go to races, but now that I know what happens, I will never do that again.

Check out http://greyhoundsinneed.com/topFrame.htm?httpgreyhoundsinneed.com/ for the real skinny on how these dogs are treated. It's a Brit site, but it translates to other countries.

Posted by: Lost in Maryland at October 19, 2013 04:49 PM (Bg05M)

25 I love dogs. I just don't get it.

Posted by: Thunderb at October 19, 2013 04:51 PM (zOTsN)

26
>>"At the very, very least... give your furry friend a great big hug today."


Actually, hugs are for primates. They generally discomfort the canine. Instead, take him for a good walk, scratch his bellyand give him a bone.

Posted by: rrpjr at October 19, 2013 04:51 PM (8hTuP)

27
give your furry friend a great big hug today


You should put that on a shirt and give it to Ace for Christmas, NDH.

Posted by: garrett at October 19, 2013 04:52 PM (X6vCd)

28 I don't care if you ban me, but there's nothing wrong with cock fighting at all. I have a little more sympathy for dogs, but it galls me that Vick had so much made about his behavior, and there is no hue and cry whatsoever about Aaron Fernandez killing PEOPLE.

Posted by: teapartydoc at October 19, 2013 04:52 PM (/hc1c)

29 Maybe I can help you...

Posted by: Jackson Galaxy at October 19, 2013 04:53 PM (GaqMa)

30 Off off hipster sock.

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 04:53 PM (GaqMa)

31 Posted by: Lost in Maryland at October 19, 2013 04:49 PM (Bg05M)

***

Dear God. I read that first paragraph and had to get up and walk away from the computer for a few minutes.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 04:53 PM (DmNpO)

32 Someone should have reminded Vick that it was once culturally acceptable to treat people as property. I'm not talking about the white slave owners in Antebellum America. I'm talking about the Africans who sold his ancestors into slavery.

Posted by: Epobirs at October 19, 2013 04:56 PM (kcfmt)

33 I could not get through the whole article because I started crying. I despise the types of people who would do this, and yes, I still hate Michael Vick for what he did, even though he's so-called "paid for" his transgression. You do not have a heart in your body if you are this type of person but only a black, worm-infested, rotting hole where your heart should be.


Posted by: Theresa D., Tea Party Terrorista at October 19, 2013 04:57 PM (K7ZXf)

34 32 Someone should have reminded Vick that it was once culturally acceptable to treat people as property. I'm not talking about the white slave owners in Antebellum America. I'm talking about the Africans who sold his ancestors into slavery.

Posted by: Epobirs at October 19, 2013 04:56 PM (kcfmt)



Always bears repeating...the first slaveowner in the US wasn't white.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at October 19, 2013 04:57 PM (GEICT)

35 "One would think after so many centuries later, we would be beyond this of idea of pitting animals to rend each other for our own enjoyment."

This is the seed from which the whole thing grows, the conceit that human evil can be abolished rather than circumscribed as possible and endured as necessary. This right here. Because the next step is "there oughta be a(nother) law".

I say this not to impugn AP, but to emphasize the constant necessity of ripping up the utopian progressive tranziweed wherever we find it. Even living in our own head.

Posted by: phunctor at October 19, 2013 04:58 PM (p12qs)

36 Leticia, Colombia. The zoo.

You could pay some pesos to buy a chicken. And you were expected to toss the white chicken into this pond. A pond that contained crocodiles. You can imagine how that went.

Had to rapidly get away from that.

Makes me sick just remembering seeing this chicken trying to swim and just violently vanishing in a tumult of water. Ugh.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at October 19, 2013 04:58 PM (ntk8X)

37 Back before she got in legal trouble the director of the local Humane Society ( No connection with the national one ) investigated dogfighting rings here. I went with her as security. It was Bubbas Good Ole Boys back then. My local neighborhood watch now reports one or two vans full of Mexicans going around the county and stealing people's pet dogs for their dogfighting rings.

I ritually denounce mysef' for pointing this out to you....

It is a vile, vicious "sport" and anyone participating in it at any level is sub-human to me. I mean that from the bottom of my black little heart.

Posted by: backhoe at October 19, 2013 04:58 PM (ULH4o)

38 phuctor

Stop putting words in my mouth or from my keyboard. I never said anything about 'another law' so shove your projection right up your fourth point of contact.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at October 19, 2013 05:00 PM (ntk8X)

39 teapartydoc?

It is with great pleasure I put you on "ignore."
You are a braying jackass. At best.

Posted by: backhoe at October 19, 2013 05:01 PM (ULH4o)

40 Ironically enough, just got home a few minutes ago while taking our daily hike thru the fields--the beagle wandered away from my Aussie and me. Being a beagle, her sniffer just took her back home, but it was a pretty nervous time until the wife called.

One of the managers at my plant (Gawd, I recruited him) breeds dogs but basically states he'll kill the ones that don't pass muster. He's a classic sociopath, psychologically incapable of feeling for others--the classic Red/White according to Color Code Personality Theory. I'm getting sick of his "weekend stories" and am trying to figure out a way to get him fired.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at October 19, 2013 05:01 PM (hcHS/)

41 28 I don't care if you ban me, but there's nothing wrong with cock fighting at all.
---

The birds are modified surgically so that they can be fitted with razor-sharp blades which they use during the fights so that people who get off on watching mutilation can make a few bucks gambling and conducting other illegal business.

Posted by: Y-not at October 19, 2013 05:01 PM (5H6zj)

42 28 teapartydoc at October 19, 2013 04:52 PM (/hc1c)

Why would someone ban you for being wrong.

We tore Aaron Hernandez a new asshole when it was topical.

Human beings have recourse in the courts and can grasp and accept justice. Pets lacking genuine foresight and moral compacts can't.


Not drawing a false equivalency either.

People who fight dogs are little better than people who would arm and fight 12 year olds in wars IMHO.


Posted by: sven10077 at October 19, 2013 05:01 PM (9jfyN)

43 I don't care if you ban me, but there's nothing wrong with cock fighting at all. I have a little more sympathy for dogs, but it galls me that Vick had so much made about his behavior, and there is no hue and cry whatsoever about Aaron Fernandez killing PEOPLE.

**

It occurs to me that somebody who would post a comment such as this to a thread on animal cruelty is either looking for a fight or begging for someone to validate his sickening acceptance of animal cruelty.

I'll grant you neither.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:02 PM (DmNpO)

44
You could pay some pesos to buy a chicken. And you were expected to toss the white chicken into this pond. A pond that contained crocodiles. You can imagine how that went.


In a way, my fate is much worse.

Posted by: The Chicken at October 19, 2013 05:02 PM (X6vCd)

45 40 Big Fat Meanie at October 19, 2013 05:01 PM (hcHS/)

Sociopaths interview well.

Posted by: sven10077 at October 19, 2013 05:02 PM (9jfyN)

46 The infliction of pain upon another living thing is not natural and not normal to most people.

You never met a cousin of mine who grew up in the Bronx in the 1960's. That branch of the family came up to the sticks for a visit when I was still a pre-teen. We're walking down a country dirt road and there's a frog crossing the road. He just stepped on it and twirled like a ballet danger.

Someone did an analysis of drivers and roadkill a while ago using a rubber turtle or something like that and hidden cameras.

I think it was about 10% of cars swerved TO hit the fake animal, rather than away from it.

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 05:02 PM (l5zzX)

47 44 The Chicken at October 19, 2013 05:02 PM (X6vCd)

If you only knew...

//Larry Flynt

Posted by: sven10077 at October 19, 2013 05:03 PM (9jfyN)

48 "No kill" shelters are the ones that really bother me, because the
concept of an open admission, no kill shelter is as untenable as free
health care for everyone. It was designed by unscrupulous individuals
to scam money out of the extremely gullible with big hearts. (There are
lots and lots of 501c3s and disability payments involved in animal
rescue.)

The model just does not work, pure and simple. In
reality, the no kill movement leads to overcrowded shelters and
warehousing of animals, which I think is crueler than humane
euthanization after a period of time.

Or what will frequently
happen is that a shelter will have to refuse admission to unwanted
animals in order to care for the ones it currently has and try to adopt
them out. This means that the unwanted animals will probably get dumped
somewhere and left to fend for itself or starve to death, both of which I
think is also crueler than humane euthanization after a period of time.

Posted by: lace_whig at October 19, 2013 05:03 PM (+OP3J)

49 Anna Puma I love your brain

Posted by: Thunderb at October 19, 2013 05:04 PM (zOTsN)

50 Images of that asshole's frog crush/twirl have stayed with me for decades. There was a look of pure bliss on that creep's face as he ground that poor frog into the road.

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 05:05 PM (l5zzX)

51 Dog-fighting, as in cock-fighting, is often viewed as a uniquely Southern evil ...

--WTF?!

You mean South Bronx?

Posted by: panzernashorn at October 19, 2013 05:05 PM (MhA4j)

52 Gee, what do you suppose happens when you import a vast number of people from third world hell holes without any intent to assimilate them within the culture? You don't suppose they keep practicing the same culture that made their homeland such a swell place, do you?

Posted by: Epobirs at October 19, 2013 05:06 PM (kcfmt)

53 32 Posted by: Epobirs at October 19, 2013 04:56 PM (kcfmt)

Same places, same slavery the norm. "Human trafficking"

Posted by: panzernashorn at October 19, 2013 05:07 PM (MhA4j)

54 52 Epobirs at October 19, 2013 05:06 PM (kcfmt)

Worse since the Multi-Culti Cult is dominant they destroy YOUR culture Omae...

Posted by: sven10077 at October 19, 2013 05:08 PM (9jfyN)

55 To expand my comments, let me say it is the belief that human nature "evolves" over historical time periods that I consider pernicious. It's a shaming technique that leads into a call for action. The nobility of the sentiment does not mitigate the transfer of conscience from individual to authority.

My conscience is at best selective. Did you know that people who torture dogs are made out of tasty meat? My Pit Bull / Dalmation / Heinz cross, Hagar the Horrible, doesn't know that, but under some circumstances I guess I could show him.


Posted by: phunctor at October 19, 2013 05:08 PM (4FvdX)

56 Gee, what do you suppose happens when you import a vast number of people from third world hell holes without any intent to assimilate them within the culture? You don't suppose they keep practicing the same culture that made their homeland such a swell place, do you?


***

They want the streets paved with gold without having to leave anything behind.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:08 PM (DmNpO)

57 Dog fighting seems to thrive in places with a large underground economy, people working off the books

Posted by: Thunderb at October 19, 2013 05:09 PM (zOTsN)

58 From the knife wounds described, it sounds like the GA dogs might've been used as bait. @ 24. Lost in Md- I can't even fathom such cruelty. Going for a walk with my dog now.

Posted by: venus velvet at October 19, 2013 05:10 PM (g94P/)

59 The infliction of pain upon another living thing is not natural and not normal to most people

No offense NDH, but I missed this part the first time through, and I think it's missing a few modifiers in there.
As someone whose cut open his fair share of mice (and helped field dress a deer or two) infliction of pain is pretty much par for the course.
The unnecessary or excessive infliction of pain however...

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 05:12 PM (GaqMa)

60 No offense NDH, but I missed this part the first time through, and I think it's missing a few modifiers in there.
As someone whose cut open his fair share of mice (and helped field dress a deer or two) infliction of pain is pretty much par for the course.
The unnecessary or excessive infliction of pain however...

***

I presume the deer was dead BEFORE you dressed it.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:13 PM (DmNpO)

61 In order to soothe the racial sensitivities, the US (and the Democrats in particular) have decided that barbarism is perfectly fine, as long as one can find a distant grievance in one's past.

Posted by: Null at October 19, 2013 05:14 PM (xjpRj)

62 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:13 PM (DmNpO)

There was still a bullet that had to hit it's target first.
And not every deer goes down instantly. I know this is part of the deal when I strike out each year.

It's not something I want to happen, but it's a calculated risk.

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 05:16 PM (GaqMa)

63 My ancestors were Sicilian. Every Mediterranean power over the past 3,000 years has invaded and enslaved Sicily at some point.

PAY ME MUTHAFUCKAS

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 05:17 PM (l5zzX)

64 The Walking Dead is the most popular show in the history of cable television.

It's probably not a good thing that so many of us get enjoyment from such graphic violence. And I watch it, too, so I'm not in a glass house here.

There's an obvious desensitization process that happens. The Walking Dead would have been inconceivable to be on TV a decade ago. It would have been x-rated if it cam out as a movie in the 70s.

Hell, just a few years ago the Saw franchise was being demonized as "torture porn", and here just as bad, if not worse, stuff is happening on the biggest hit cable TV show of all time.

Walking Dead features graphic, up close visual of people being shot, stabbed, dismembered, decapitated, disemboweled, and, of course, just getting bitten, and chewed, and eaten alive.

From an outside perspective, it's kinda crazy. I honestly don't know how much further they can go.

The only violence taboos The Walking Dead seems to observe are they don't show any violence in graphic detail visited upon any sexual organs, male or female They'll show people getting stabbed in the face, but not the cooch. They'll show a zombie chewing somebody's neck, but not their tits or dick.

So I guess that's a taboo breaking we can look forward to on AMC in 2018, close-up Zombie crotch bites.

Weird world we live in.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at October 19, 2013 05:17 PM (ZPrif)

65 If it's wrong that I find pleasure in watching jihadis blow themselves up or get blown up then I don't wanna be right.

In all seriousness though, I don't care if it's cock fighting or bum fighting, anyone who enjoys such things is off.

Posted by: Adam at October 19, 2013 05:18 PM (Aif/5)

66 There was still a bullet that had to hit it's target first.
And not every deer goes down instantly. I know this is part of the deal when I strike out each year.

It's not something I want to happen, but it's a calculated risk.

***

I think your conscience can be soothed. There's one hell of a difference between hunting for food which aims to kill the animal as quickly and painlessly as possible and someone fighting animals for entertainment.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:18 PM (DmNpO)

67 It occurs to me that a culture which places absolutely no value on *human* life can not possibly hope to place value on animal life either. Not so much a defense as a condemnation, but it's true that in many urban areas the natural repulsion from death and destruction just doesn't exist.

Posted by: Lauren at October 19, 2013 05:20 PM (ELdpj)

68 67 It occurs to me that a culture which places absolutely no value on *human* life can not possibly hope to place value on animal life either.
-----

I think that's why it's so important to most (not all) pro-"choicers" to insist that developing babies aren't human.

I can at least have an intellectual argument with someone who is arguing that the mother's life (including her choice, not life & death) is more important than the embryo's or fetus's. But when someone clings to the magical thinking that a being outside the womb is human when a minute earlier it was not simply because of geography, I know we aren't going to get anywhere.

Posted by: Y-not at October 19, 2013 05:23 PM (5H6zj)

69 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:18 PM (DmNpO)

I don't disagree. I don't even disagree with your general point, but I think it's more the "wanton infliction" of pain or the "unnecessary infliction of pain."

Not just the "infliction of pain" in general.

Or perhaps the cases I'm discussion simply don't fit the "normal" part of that clause (in that they're not every day occurrences.)

All I know is I had to get an earful every now and then from people saying that all that animal work was going to make me a destroyed miserable person.
Eh, not really. I'm still as I was before.

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 05:24 PM (GaqMa)

70 Mine are Irish and German. If it wasn't for alcohol and the English you'd all be subjects!

Posted by: DaveA at October 19, 2013 05:25 PM (DL2i+)

71
we aren't going to get anywhere.


Then why am I wearing my Dress Chaps?

Posted by: garrett at October 19, 2013 05:25 PM (X6vCd)

72 @64 Thank you, Flatbush Joe. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who's disturbed by the extreme graphic violence and over the top sadism in the entertainment industry today.

Posted by: lace_whig at October 19, 2013 05:25 PM (+OP3J)

73 >>Then why am I wearing my Dress Chaps?

Pictures or...

;-)

Posted by: Y-not at October 19, 2013 05:26 PM (5H6zj)

74 Posted by: lace_whig at October 19, 2013 05:25 PM (+OP3J)

late to the hq today, but that is really quite an epic nic there, buddy. well-played!!

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 05:26 PM (8lmkt)

75 All I know is I had to get an earful every now and then from people saying that all that animal work was going to make me a destroyed miserable person.
Eh, not really. I'm still as I was before.

***

You're an ethicist. Did you really derive pleasure from the mouse-work?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:27 PM (DmNpO)

76 Yep, y-not, the dehumanization and otherization runs deep in our society. "It's not *really* a baby" "He's not *really* alive" "He's not one of us"...It goes from conception til death.

Posted by: Lauren at October 19, 2013 05:27 PM (ELdpj)

77 64--- I have reflected on this desensitization too. Even on less overtly violent shows like NCIS and CSI, it astounds me how graphic the autopsy images are.

I cannot imagine any movie, much less a TV show, showing things like that 50 years ago.

Before we get too proud of how we are soooo superior to people who came before us, we might reflect on that and tremble. The veneer of civilization may be thinner than we think.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 05:28 PM (dfYL9)

78 that a being outside the womb is human when a minute earlier it was not simply because of geography

I've always found that metric to be particularly NOT compelling and simply a fig leaf of rationalization convenience.

Biological arguments, theological, even economic I'm willing to entertain, but a few inches and a few seconds is so arbitrary its not logically supportable at all.

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 05:29 PM (l5zzX)

79 My five dogs will symbolically sh*t in their yards tonight. And I won't pick it up.

Posted by: dfbaskwill at October 19, 2013 05:29 PM (ndlFj)

80 Believe it or not, The Walking Dead comic is FAR worse than the show. It truly is the product of a depraved mind.

Posted by: KG at October 19, 2013 05:30 PM (IPz9m)

81 Well, I watch it, so I'm obviously not that upset by it.
But there's clearly a desensitization process with horror movies and TV shows. Something that shocked in the 70s, 80s, or 90s ... no longer shocks today. They constantly have to invent some new fresh shock. The audience gets bored with the old shock.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at October 19, 2013 05:31 PM (ZPrif)

82 I have reflected on this desensitization too. Even on less overtly
violent shows like NCIS and CSI, it astounds me how graphic the autopsy
images are.

We (me and the dadster and my sis) have always been big Criminal Minds fans. But we are almost done with it, due to the mind-boggling gore and grossness they continue to embrace. And they don't have to do that, it would be a far better show were it a bit more psych and a bit less bloody.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 05:31 PM (8lmkt)

83
for supper tonight: steak tips, rice, and salad

movie tonight: Man Of Steel or Grown.Ups 2, or RIPD

adult livation? possibly...maybe a cab sauvignon

Posted by: soothie at October 19, 2013 05:32 PM (wUfzt)

84 Thank you, Flatbush Joe. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who's disturbed by the extreme graphic violence and over the top sadism in the entertainment industry today.

***

I can't watch it.

Years ago FX had a show called The Shield. The first season was phenomenal and when they won the Emmy for best drama I remember watching as most of the audience tilted their heads. It seemed as if almost nobody other than myself had ever heard of the show. Then, in the second season, they ramped up the blood and guts and I could no longer watch it.

I've also never watched The Walking Dead and I've never seen Braveheart. I did, however, manage to watch Saving Private Ryan, but cried so hard at the landing scene that I could barely see the screen.

I just can't see seeking out those images and allowing them to exist in my mind and heart.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:34 PM (DmNpO)

85 Right the autopsy scenes so common on broadcast TV today would have, literally, been X-rated not too long ago. They would have been part of some schlock horror movie in the 70s. Not 9pm on ABC or CBS.

But people love it. That's why they do it.

I'm perhaps most stunned that shows like Dexter are hits, where the hero is an actual serial killer. I get it that it's supposed to be ok because he only tortures and vivisects bad people, but man, that's some sick shit.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at October 19, 2013 05:35 PM (ZPrif)

86 I just can't see seeking out those images and allowing them to exist in my mind and heart.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:34 PM (DmNpO)

I am trending more and more that way myself, Niedermeyer, although I'm thinking about stories linked on Drudge which, as someone mentioned the other day, is becoming more and more tabloid. Plus, I've notice the last couple of days, it never stops refreshing or whatever, just constant swirly. I've stopped keeping it open on my tabs now. Such a shame.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 05:35 PM (8lmkt)

87 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:27 PM (DmNpO)

I was a biologist before I was an ethicist. And despite the field change I still retain some of original characteristics.

Did I "derive pleasure?" That depends on what you mean. I took no joy in some of the procedures carried out (others I was merely ambivalent towards*) and tried to minimize distress to the best of my abilities.

However, I did enjoy adding to the collective knowledge of science.

Would I undo my efforts that to spare the mice the necessary pain. No.

*Every so often a mouse does bite you, then, being human, do you take a satisfaction in putting it down which my go to Purp's earlier point. Granted "putting it down" is CO2 asphyxiation, so it's not even pain.

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 05:36 PM (GaqMa)

88 The veneer of civilization may be thinner than we think.

Many customs and social rituals that were part of that veneer evolved for very specific practical social-anthropological reasons. Without them, people were at each others throats.

Post modernism wants to deny the fundamentals of primate evolution itself, in favor of unproven bullshit theories.


Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 05:37 PM (l5zzX)

89 82---"And they don't have to do that, it would be a far better show were it a bit more psych and a bit less bloody."

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 05:31 PM (8lmkt)
-------------------
Yes! It's unnecessary, purely gratuitous.
That's why it disturbs me even more than the brain-eating zombie stuff, which at least has importance to the plot.
When you start asking WHY they do this, it gets ....disturbing.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 05:37 PM (dfYL9)

90 @74 Thanks, Peaches. I mostly just lurk, only seldom do I post anything.

Posted by: lace_whig at October 19, 2013 05:41 PM (+OP3J)

91
We (me and the dadster and my sis) have always been big Criminal Minds fans. But we are almost done with it, due to the mind-boggling gore and grossness they continue to embrace.


We stopped watching that show several years ago precisely because of the gratuitous violence that was becoming too much of the focus of the show. So much that didn't have to be shown that would have advanced the storyline simply by being discussed.

I guarantee you my mind can conjure up/imagine something MUCH worse than what is shown on screen - and because it's what bothers me, it is that much scarier.

Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at October 19, 2013 05:42 PM (PZ6/M)

92 85---
I'm perhaps most stunned that shows like Dexter are hits, where the hero is an actual serial killer. I get it that it's supposed to be ok because he only tortures and vivisects bad people, but man, that's some sick shit.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at October 19, 2013 05:35 PM (ZPrif)
-------------------------
I find it chilling.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 05:42 PM (dfYL9)

93 I am trending more and more that way myself, Niedermeyer, although I'm thinking about stories linked on Drudge which, as someone mentioned the other day, is becoming more and more tabloid. Plus, I've notice the last couple of days, it never stops refreshing or whatever, just constant swirly. I've stopped keeping it open on my tabs now. Such a shame.

***

Some images, such as the story I linked above, help to promote people to action or, at the very least, an acknowledgment that evil exists. Story-lines which rely upon blood and gore for entertainment value are like a comedienne who relies upon coarse language in place of actual comedy.

I was entertained by Quincy and Trapper John but didn't have to see the blood and gore to know that a person was suffering or dying. One of the most powerful movie scenes I've ever seen is the battle scene in Spartacus and I didn't see a single organ spill from the cavity of the dead.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:42 PM (DmNpO)

94 I'm perhaps most stunned that shows like Dexter are hits, where the hero is an actual serial killer.

When law enforcement is perceived as corrupt, ineffective, often arbitrary, and frequently misguided, its not surprising that people flock to anyone offering a form of classic "justice" more in line with their beliefs.

As more and more people come to the realization that the US "justice system" doesn't deliver classical justice and only delivers highly corruptible procedure and process, the more popular Dexter type characters will become.

Dexter wasn't the first. There was a movie Henry 2 about a serial killer who squared off against an arsonist. At the end, you were rooting for the serial killer to take down the arsonist.

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 05:46 PM (l5zzX)

95
Just find the people who are doing this shit and stab them to death. End of problem...

[I always thought some sort of classes should be taught in schools, maybe starting in grade schools, on pet care.]

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman, PhD Bitches! at October 19, 2013 05:46 PM (As/N8)

96 This kind of post always makes me cringe - the near-hysteric language is used by reasonable people and animal-worshiping PETA types both.

The inability to understand that killing an animal for whatever reason is none of their business unless it is specifically cruel and intentionally so. The "evil" and such badinage is a slippery slope - and tends to be used by urban citizens who never had to slaughter a thing for their own table. The same fools tend to try to outlaw what they don't like - and try to set equivalences between dog fighting and say, shooting a pig for bacon. Or a deer for chops. Or a quail for quail season hunting. Or anything else outside their pretty Disney-esque imaginings of Thumper and Flower and Bambi's hippity hop dance party.

Not to say NDH is one of those, but hell, tone it down willya? Animals deserve to not be the subject of abject cruelty, true - but this seems perilously close to a screeching pronouncement of ThoughtCrime(tm) on anyone who doesn't think Doggies Are Like Humans.

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at October 19, 2013 05:46 PM (VFtsA)

97
Cruelty comes in many forms, and for me and my primate friends, the worst is being confused with the arrogant prick residing in the White House.

Posted by: JJ Muggs at October 19, 2013 05:46 PM (pJF+c)

98 Did I "derive pleasure?" That depends on what you mean. I took no joy in some of the procedures carried out (others I was merely ambivalent towards*) and tried to minimize distress to the best of my abilities.

However, I did enjoy adding to the collective knowledge of science.

Would I undo my efforts that to spare the mice the necessary pain. No.

***

I guess I am confused because you seem to be conflating the necessary evil which contributes to scientific knowledge and the ultimate betterment for mankind and the evil of inflicting torture upon an animal for perverse pleasure.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:48 PM (DmNpO)

99 Dexter wasn't the first. There was a movie Henry 2 about a serial killer
who squared off against an arsonist. At the end, you were rooting for
the serial killer to take down the arsonist.

***

And then there's Hannibal, wherein Hannibal Lecter goes from anti-hero to actual protagonist.

Posted by: cool arrow at October 19, 2013 05:49 PM (WMsq+)

100 Talk to the cops. They have a penchant for shooting dogs.

Posted by: Joe Bar at October 19, 2013 05:49 PM (tPbWy)

101 Some images, such as the story I linked above, help to promote people to action

I could not agree more, Niedermeyer. No end to the sick fucks who are watching and filling in their playbooks while watching this stuff.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 05:49 PM (8lmkt)

102
I thought this was going to be about:

Meet Van Gogh, the puppy left to die by heartless dog fighters who cut off his ears


http://goo.gl/cQkcrg

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman, PhD Bitches! at October 19, 2013 05:50 PM (As/N8)

103 See, #98? It isn't "necessary evil". It isn't evil at all, that's your particular judgment and it is wrong to use that for a simple task like dissection of a lower animal for science. It is not "evil" - necessary or otherwise. It is simply an action.

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at October 19, 2013 05:51 PM (VFtsA)

104 Posted by: Jesse Pinkman, PhD Bitches! at October 19, 2013 05:50 PM (As/N

See, I just can't have things like that stuck in my brain and will not click. I have not clicked the one about the baby in the shopping bag. It is not helpful to those who suffered to have me up half the night, trying to purge my head of ugliness. I know it's there, I would do anything possible to abate it, but I will not pollute myself with it, I just can't.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 05:53 PM (8lmkt)

105 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:48 PM (DmNpO)

I'm rejecting the idea that the first is "necessary evil."

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 05:53 PM (GaqMa)

106 See, #98? It isn't "necessary evil". It isn't evil at all, that's your particular judgment and it is wrong to use that for a simple task like dissection of a lower animal for science. It is not "evil" - necessary or otherwise. It is simply an action.

***

What part of the comment wherein my name is signed below suggests that it is anything except for my opinion? Just as your comment is obviously your opinion.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:55 PM (DmNpO)

107 http://youtu.be/lz_OZVk_Es0

Clip is from Dragnet. The 1966 color
movie. Because sometimes you just need to hear a Jesus speech every now
and again. And no one did them finer than Jack Webb when he was having
a bad day.

Posted by: lace_whig at October 19, 2013 05:56 PM (+OP3J)

108 See, I just can't have things like that stuck in my brain and will not click. I have not clicked the one about the baby in the shopping bag. It is not helpful to those who suffered to have me up half the night, trying to purge my head of ugliness. I know it's there, I would do anything possible to abate it, but I will not pollute myself with it, I just can't.

***

to your earlier comment about Drudge, there have been more and more stories that I've skipped recently.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 05:57 PM (DmNpO)

109 Peaches at October 19, 2013 05:53 PM (8lmkt)

If it is any help, he was found & rushed to a vet who immediately performed surgery. He's up and about and looking happy though a bit shy and skinny. So, they will fatten him up, love him up, and he will be off to a loving home.

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman, PhD Bitches! at October 19, 2013 05:57 PM (As/N8)

110 One of the most galling things about the Michael Vick case was the
defense that it was an acceptable part of his culture. He suggested that
it was part of his community at-large. This claim is complete and utter
bullshit. A child will turn their face rather than watch someone or
something in pain. The infliction of pain upon another living thing is
not natural and not normal to most people. And it can't be argued that
exposure to such deeds makes one accepting of it. After all, one must
willingly participate in the event the first time, and then the second,
and so on, before one develops a callous to the cruelty. The fact that
one would subject themself to something so horrific and then continue to
return until they had built up an adequate resistance to their natural
recoil is absurd.


You are wrong on this. But, before I get to that, Vick was overstating his case. dog fighting is not part of anyone's community at large, at least not in this country. But, it is part of a subculture. The street culture, for lack of a better term. The kind of young males that like to burnish their "cred", the kind who want to be known as the toughest out there, and as part of that, they have the meanest dog around. The way they put that to the test is with dog fights.

Now, none of that mean we should put up with it or accept it as an excuse for their criminal behavior, but that subculture does exist. Denying what you don't like does not change reality.

As to your claim that, "A child will turn their face rather than watch someone or
something in pain", proving that it is not part of any culture, is just nonsense. Circumcision is part of many cultures, including ours. The fact that a child would turn his head away from a baby getting circumcised does not mean that it is not part of our culture. And, a child who witnesses this on a regular basis, say the son of a Mohel, would likely start to become accustomed to the pain of the babies. Therefore, your statement, "And it can't be argued that
exposure to such deeds makes one accepting of it" is just plain nonsense. I am arguing exactly that.
It is just human nature that once you have become accustomed to something, it starts to lose its shock value. How do you start to become accustommed to something? Through repeated exposure.

I am happy that dog fighting is illegal, but let's get real about how we characterize the people who engage in it. They may be inhumane, but that does not make them inhuman.



Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at October 19, 2013 05:57 PM (IN7k+)

111 At the very, very least... give your furry friend a great big hug today
----------------

Heh. Yesterday I lay down to take a nap, and the dog hopped up and settled against my shoulder. She does that *every* night. Snapped a cell-phone selfie.
http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r727/MickySpillaine/1017131813_zps08dd17bf.jpg

Meanwhile, and at the same time..., at the foot of the bed, Mike Hammer's Cat. Still sulking from being boarded last week.
http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r727/MickySpillaine/1017131814_zps246837a5.jpg

Posted by: Mike Hammer at October 19, 2013 05:58 PM (aDwsi)

112 Rope. Tree. Dog fighters and onlookers. Some assembly required.

Or as Mr. Garibaldi put it in Babylon 5:"Electric chair? Sometimes I think we need electric bleachers."

Posted by: SDN at October 19, 2013 05:58 PM (4RsUF)

113 I know he's an outlier, but my cop brother would shoot his own partner before he let him shoot a dog. He stops traffic for turtles, ducks, etc.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 05:58 PM (ZshNr)

114 {{{{{Niedermeyer}}}}}

You know what's unnecessary, Inspector? Having junior high and high school students dissect frogs. I did not do it when it was put in front of me. It was wholly unnecessary and cringeworthy and I honestly don't believes it advances science or serves any purpose whatever. There's too much of that going around. I completely understand Niedermeyer's point. And, just for the record, my dad, in his work as a scientist, had horses and goats and sheep and mice and who knows what else, and I'm pretty sure none of them had happy lives. And I love him, but it doesn't really bear thinking about.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 05:59 PM (8lmkt)

115 I'm rejecting the idea that the first is "necessary evil."

***

Perhaps I should have specified one evil and another EVIL. One in common language terms and the other in actual spiritual terms.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:01 PM (DmNpO)

116 Posted by: Mike Hammer at October 19, 2013 05:58 PM (aDwsi)

so sweet, Mike!! thanks for putting that up there.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 06:01 PM (8lmkt)

117 Well, I better go before I start getting screamed at for whatever "evil" I am doing by disagreeing. I have to blow my nose now, it is a necessary evil since it kills multi-cellular animals who are Just Like Humans. (mites are dogs are boys are rats, right NDH?)

NDH, you are unreasonable and I disagree. Labeling dissection of a mouse as "evil" is unreasonable at best.

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at October 19, 2013 06:02 PM (VFtsA)

118
When you see how people treat animals, the unborn and their elders you can see through the veneer of a 'culture'. Once you have dehumanized something its easy to justify your actions. I'm not talking about hunting or raising livestock and poultry for food; killing for necessity(including self preservation or protection offamily and home) isentirely different than killing for is the sake of blood lust and/or just being cruel.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at October 19, 2013 06:02 PM (LP0Fj)

119 You are wrong on this. But, before I get to that, Vick was overstating his case. dog fighting is not part of anyone's community at large, at least not in this country. But, it is part of a subculture. The street culture, for lack of a better term. The kind of young males that like to burnish their "cred", the kind who want to be known as the toughest out there, and as part of that, they have the meanest dog around. The way they put that to the test is with dog fights.

*****

And it was to Vick's defense that I specifically referred.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:03 PM (DmNpO)

120 I have to blow my nose now, it is a necessary evil since it kills
multi-cellular animals who are Just Like Humans. (mites are dogs are
boys are rats, right NDH?)

You are being disingenuous. Multicellular *organisms* are not sentient. I am not liking you right now and calling Niedermeyer unreasonable is unnecessary and kinda pisses me off. Not trying to inflame a contentious situation, but you've got your back up and, if you really believe you're correct, why would you?

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 06:05 PM (8lmkt)

121 Well, I better go before I start getting screamed at for whatever "evil" I am doing by disagreeing. I have to blow my nose now, it is a necessary evil since it kills multi-cellular animals who are Just Like Humans. (mites are dogs are boys are rats, right NDH?)

NDH, you are unreasonable and I disagree. Labeling dissection of a mouse as "evil" is unreasonable at best.

***

You are very clearly cherry-picking comments with which to argue. If you want to take your ball and go home, that is your prerogative.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:06 PM (DmNpO)

122 FWIW there's plenty of native-born white trash involved in dog fighting. I understand it to be a major source of revenue for the Klan and related parasites.

Posted by: lace_whig at October 19, 2013 06:08 PM (+OP3J)

123 FWIW there's plenty of native-born white trash involved in dog fighting.

This is true, I'm sure. Plus, we got all these undocumented Democrats over here by the border who think cock-fighting is a "sport." It's disgusting.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 06:09 PM (8lmkt)

124 123 FWIW there's plenty of native-born white trash involved in dog fighting. I understand it to be a major source of revenue for the Klan and related parasites.
Posted by: lace_whig at October 19, 2013 06:08 PM (+OP3J)


Yeah, they busted a bunch of them about a year ago in NorCal.

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman, PhD Bitches! at October 19, 2013 06:10 PM (As/N8)

125 Peaches - Thanks. She's a little cutie. When Mrs. Hammer brought her home, I was disgusted, as I think a 'dog' weighs 50 lbs. and you can wrestle with it. I ignored the little creature..., naturally she immediately attached herself to me. And that was that.
Here's another shot, after a 'tiring' day at the beach:
http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r727/MickySpillaine/Sophie_zps8ed018c0.jpg

Posted by: Mike Hammer at October 19, 2013 06:11 PM (aDwsi)

126 People are bull shit. They don't give a fuck about abortion (incredible cruelty to babies, babies literally being torn apart by a "doctor"), but they hear about cruelty to animals (animals, for fucks sake) and they start ejaculating tears all over the place as a way of showing how empathetic and caring and "humane" they are. Bull shit.



Later.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at October 19, 2013 06:11 PM (sfOOx)

127 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:01 PM (DmNpO)

I am still confused.

The experimentation on and dissension of mice (and presumably the slaughter of livestock as well and what have you.) Which evil are you saying those are?

Because I would submit they are neither.
Pain is just a sensation, sometimes we have to inflict it on others (or ourselves) depending on various circumstances.
Deriving pleasure solely from the infliction of pain, that's certainly not spiritually fulfilling. But merely inflicting it is sorta a morally neutral thing.

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 06:12 PM (GaqMa)

128 someone needs to pay dearly for being involved in dog fighting. It needs to leave a mark.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:12 PM (Z9EHQ)

129 #121, because I was being nice instead of saying that such hysterics are anti-human and anti-liberty and tend to empower those who, like some posters above, wish to kill people for their use and/or killing of animals. Now that's fucking evil

Read above - Your and NDH's hysteria (and those who follow it slavishly) is a threat to me and mine who hunt and fish. You are an eyelash's difference from ELF and Earth Firsters. That's my true evaluation - such hysteria is common ground between you and them - and I cannot discern a difference between someone who would hurt or attack a man for hunting and NDH's snide and EVIL smearing of a scientist dissecting a simple animal.

I was being nice. Do not assume I wish to be mean yet.

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at October 19, 2013 06:12 PM (VFtsA)

130 I gotta admit, Hammer, I expected some kinda brute there, but your little sweetie is, well, ineffably sweet and beautiful. It's really not about how much we love them, you find when they gotta go that it's more about how much they love us. Always bittersweet, but a true blessing in our lives.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 06:13 PM (8lmkt)

131 inflicting pain gratuitously or unnecessarily is cruel and evil.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:13 PM (Z9EHQ)

132 114 ---"... my cop brother would shoot his own partner before he let him shoot a dog."

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 05:58 PM (ZshNr)
-----------------------
Well, I understand and sincerely applaud his love of animals. But especially given that he is a cop, I should hope that he would not be so driven by feelings (however fine they are) as to commit murder.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 06:14 PM (dfYL9)

133 I wonder if people would complain or be aghast if we armed hobos and had them fight to the death? <sarc>Maybe it would be OK if we did it with liberals, or......

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at October 19, 2013 06:14 PM (z+Xap)

134 Humans can be just as feral as the cats feasting in a restaurant dumpster, sometime even more so.

Socially we're not as far from the jungle as we think we are.

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 06:14 PM (l5zzX)

135 Peaches - Thanks. She's a little cutie. When Mrs. Hammer brought her home, I was disgusted, as I think a 'dog' weighs 50 lbs. and you can wrestle with it. I ignored the little creature..., naturally she immediately attached herself to me. And that was that.
Here's another shot, after a 'tiring' day at the beach:

***

What a sweetie pie.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:14 PM (DmNpO)

136 someone needs to pay dearly for being involved in dog fighting. It needs to leave a mark.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:12 PM (Z9EHQ)

et tu, panda-hater?? how you doin' buddy? ready to see the Sox go the distance tonight? I am SO excited!!!!

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 06:15 PM (8lmkt)

137 Humans can be just as feral as the cats feasting in a restaurant dumpster, sometime even more so.

Socially we're not as far from the jungle as we think we are.

***

Ain't that the truth. One thing that always baffles me, however, is how like finds like.

In cases of child abuse or sexual assault, where more than one perp engages, I always wonder, Who brought up the idea?. How did they know that the other would also share their interest?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:17 PM (DmNpO)

138 et tu, panda-hater?? how you doin' buddy? ready to see the Sox go the distance tonight? I am SO excited!!!!
Posted by: Peaches


Peaches! How are you and your feline overlords?

I may hate pandas but I would never inflict pain on them.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:18 PM (Z9EHQ)

139 I wonder if people would complain or be aghast if we armed hobos and had them fight to the death? Maybe it would be OK if we did it with liberals, or......

****

Was it Lex and Terry who did the poo-dollar bit?

Just disgusting.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:18 PM (DmNpO)

140 I love dogs, mine died two years ago of lung cancer.

I never knew she smoked.

Dogs/pets are NOT people.

When liberals get as upset about dogs getting killed as we do about humans get killed/aborted, I'll get involved.

Let me repeat. Pets are NOT people. They have no souls. They are PETS.

You are not going to see Fido in heaven if you make it.

Understand?

Posted by: Nip Sip at October 19, 2013 06:19 PM (0FSuD)

141 Peaches! How are you and your feline overlords?



I may hate pandas but I would never inflict pain on them.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:18 PM (Z9EHQ)

We are good, Y5!!! How are you and methlab and the little cutie? I am chortling in secret over the Dodgers stinkin' it up last night and just trying to stay turgid for tonight's game. I am all a-twitter!!!

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 06:19 PM (8lmkt)

142 Hyperbole.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 06:21 PM (ZshNr)

143 135>> Amen Purp...amen. It is truly frightening to see it first hand. This is why we have laws and why the law must be applied consistently and uniformly.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at October 19, 2013 06:21 PM (Lo5Rt)

144
That's YOUR beliefs --- not mine.

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman, PhD Bitches! at October 19, 2013 06:21 PM (As/N8)

145 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:17 PM (DmNpO)

Jerome Bruner has written a ton on this subject actually.

Wait let me clarify that.

Jerome Bruner has written a ton on the idea that we are often more apparent to others than we realize.
He calls it "the transactional self." He's incredibly obtuse at times and can be a slog to get through, but if you're interested you might look at some of his work. I've read "Actual Minds, Possible worlds" which probably isn't the best starting point exactly, but it discusses the transactional self in detail and can be found fairly cheaply used. (Or apparently 14.70 on kindle.)

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 06:21 PM (GaqMa)

146
I wonder if people would complain or be aghast if we armed hobos and had them fight to the death?


Before she died, my mom did volunteer work in a YWCA that took in all sorts of strays and psych cases. They learned to start searching them when admitted. They were packing all manner of lethal weapons.

My mom was threatened at knife point in a YWCA elevator one day by one of the crazies. After that, until the day she died, she refused to ride elevators with random people on them unless escorted by someone she trusted.

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 06:22 PM (l5zzX)

147 Socially we're not as far from the jungle as we think we are.

Posted by: Purp
-----------

I have said before, and will say again, the story of civilized society is the story of man's struggle against his base instincts.

Laws are always necessary because largish swaths of the populace are devoid of morality. The problem is that the swath is growing larger, and laws at some point become ineffective. The first manifestation of that is with the leadership. I need not say more...

Posted by: Mike Hammer at October 19, 2013 06:22 PM (aDwsi)

148 who said animals were people; sounds as if another strawman should be looking over his shoulder for some jef with a lighter.

and how the fuck do you know animals do not have souls?



there is no good reason for harming animals or inflicting pain on them unnecessarily.



why not simply argue for vivsection?

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:23 PM (Z9EHQ)

149 Jerome Bruner has written a ton on this subject actually.

Wait let me clarify that.

Jerome Bruner has written a ton on the idea that we are often more apparent to others than we realize.
He calls it "the transactional self." He's incredibly obtuse at times and can be a slog to get through, but if you're interested you might look at some of his work. I've read "Actual Minds, Possible worlds" which probably isn't the best starting point exactly, but it discusses the transactional self in detail and can be found fairly cheaply used. (Or apparently 14.70 on kindle.)

****

Thanks. I've bookmarked a Bruner search for later.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:23 PM (DmNpO)

150 True Fact : Panda is Peruvian for 'Mime Weasel'.

Posted by: garrett at October 19, 2013 06:24 PM (vo9JA)

151 143 --- I know, Lincolnf. Or should have known. Sorry!

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 06:24 PM (dfYL9)

152

While giving a speech endorsing Democrat Terry McAuliffe’s Virginia gubernatorial bid, Hillary Clinton opened her remarks by saying, “I’ve been out of politics for a few years now."
January 21, 2009 – February 1, 2013
Sec. of State Hillary Clinton, Obama Administration

At this point, what difference does it make?!

Posted by: Clinton Dog Fight at October 19, 2013 06:24 PM (MhA4j)

153 We are good, Y5!!! How are you and methlab and the little cutie? I am chortling in secret over the Dodgers stinkin' it up last night and just trying to stay turgid for tonight's game. I am all a-twitter!!!
Posted by: Peaches

methlab and my little dog are well. enjoying the weather between too hot and too cold; for them, it is never too cold for me.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:24 PM (Z9EHQ)

154 139

I may hate pandas but I would never inflict pain on them.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:18 PM (Z9EHQ)

See that would just be stupid. Pandas do not even taste good.

Posted by: Dandolo at October 19, 2013 06:25 PM (0XBx+)

155 141 You are not going to see Fido in heaven if you make it.

Heaven sounds like a pretty shitty place.

Posted by: Clutch Cargo at October 19, 2013 06:25 PM (pgQxn)

156 That same cop brother did once punch me for forgetting to crush the barbs on my fish hooks, so it wasn't ALL hyperbole.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 06:26 PM (ZshNr)

157
Dogs/pets are NOT people.



Let me repeat. Pets are NOT people. They have no souls. They are PETS.

You are wrong. They most definitely have souls. And, until fairly recently in the history of all this tawdry shit, they were NOT pets. They were fierce in their own right and they ruled their little kingdoms and they only made common cause with us because it was mutually (MUTUALLY) beneficial.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 06:26 PM (8lmkt)

158
Everybody Wants To Go To Heaven

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9y7JkoG6Ak

Posted by: Love and Rockets at October 19, 2013 06:27 PM (vo9JA)

159 methlab and my little dog are well. enjoying the weather between too hot and too cold; for them, it is never too cold for me.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:24 PM (Z9EHQ)

did you finally move to texas?

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 06:28 PM (8lmkt)

160 Crazy finish to the Nascar Trucks race.
Talladega chaos as they wrecked en masse over the finish line. Upside down cars, cars on fire,
Unclear if any serious injuries.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at October 19, 2013 06:28 PM (ZPrif)

161 #121, because I was being nice instead of saying that such hysterics are anti-human and anti-liberty and tend to empower those who, like some posters above, wish to kill people for their use and/or killing of animals. Now that's fucking evil

Read above - Your and NDH's hysteria (and those who follow it slavishly) is a threat to me and mine who hunt and fish. You are an eyelash's difference from ELF and Earth Firsters. That's my true evaluation - such hysteria is common ground between you and them - and I cannot discern a difference between someone who would hurt or attack a man for hunting and NDH's snide and EVIL smearing of a scientist dissecting a simple animal.

I was being nice. Do not assume I wish to be mean yet.

****

I must have blacked out. Where did I wish for death to people? Where have I said that animals are more valuable than people? Did I not make a distinction, in the comments, between hunting animals for food and torturing animals for entertainment?

Your attacks are so far out in left field as to make one wonder what lurks within your conscience.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:29 PM (DmNpO)

162 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:23 PM (DmNpO)

Eh glad I can help.

Like I said, I found Actual Minds, Possible Worlds a bit thick, but once I got through it, I was impressed.

It's also full of some really cool stuff about child development.
Part of the reason the book is thick is because he often talks about his experiments, but the descriptions can be a bit confusing.

The book is actually supposed to be about our search for meaning I think, but he goes through is psychological work to get to that.

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 06:29 PM (GaqMa)

163
That same cop brother did once punch me for forgetting to crush the barbs on my fish hooks, so it wasn't ALL hyperbole.


You should tell him that barbless hooks can do more damage that hooks with barbs.
Serious.
Barbless hooks penetrate much deeper and do damage that won't heal.
Use barbs and be prepared to lose a fly or two when they get in there and won't come out. That's the best way to keep damage to a min.

Posted by: Love and Rockets at October 19, 2013 06:30 PM (vo9JA)

164 153 ---

If I were in a boat and had to throw either my dog or Terry McAuliffe to the sharks,.......
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!

I'm honestly not sure I would do the right thing.
*sigh*

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 06:30 PM (dfYL9)

165 The problem is that the swath is growing larger, and laws at some point become ineffective

Laws are ineffective against nihilism.

If someone old enough to know its wrong, and understand the consequences if caught, and STILL not give a shit, thinks its OK to just kill some random person on the street because they're bored, there's no law or level of enforcement that can ever stop that.

That pair could have hit the guy with a pipe if they didn't have a gun. If they didn't have a pipe or gun, they'd have run him down with their car, etc, etc.

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 06:30 PM (l5zzX)

166 I haven't watched TV much in years ... and what's being described on this thread makes me very glad of that. I dislike gratuitous gore, and even Fallout 3 was a bit much, but from what y'all are saying, that's mild these days. Yeucch!

::cuddling my little white DLH kitten, Ghost, after taking Frank the Furter Dog for his daily run earlier today::

Hurt either one, or Mr. Empire, and you will have a small but very angry Empire1 after you.

Posted by: Empire1 at October 19, 2013 06:30 PM (5HPSn)

167 We just don't fish together anymore, unless there's a good quarter mile between us.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 06:31 PM (ZshNr)

168
80semobandsockoff

Posted by: garrett at October 19, 2013 06:32 PM (vo9JA)

169 Well, with all due respect, I hope pets do have souls, unfortunately it appears they don't according to most Christian doctrine.

Wishing it was so, does not make it so.

http://tinyurl.com/lf8w5tm

Posted by: Nip Sip at October 19, 2013 06:32 PM (0FSuD)

170 aside from church doctrine or teaching there is no reason to assume animals do not have souls. It is in the same vein as vivisectionists who claimed animals did not experience pain.

I have met animals with myriad issues but I have never met one that was evil. I am perfectly comfortable with the idea that all animals are innocent, humans, definitely not so.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:32 PM (Z9EHQ)

171
you all must be WASPS...

/"Wall Street"

Posted by: soothie at October 19, 2013 06:32 PM (8xlPS)

172 165 MDV

Eh, Terry'd be fine: professional courtesy.

Posted by: speedster1 on the iPad at October 19, 2013 06:33 PM (naplm)

173 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:29 PM (DmNpO)

I think the concern is NDH, that by even bringing up the idea of "Evil" (common or spiritual) it runs to close to the common attacks that are hurled at us by animal rights groups.

Consider that I just went to a talk by a Christian (Catholic?) Theologian who insisted that the experiments on apes (chimps? I forget which specifically) that served as precursor experiments for the development of neural implants to aid paralytics were wrong because and I quote "We don't really need biomechanical arms for paralytics."

I almost fell over.

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 06:33 PM (GaqMa)

174 157 That same cop brother did once punch me for forgetting to crush the barbs on my fish hooks, so it wasn't ALL hyperbole.
Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 06:26 PM (ZshNr)
----------------
Heh.
Punching brothers is okay!

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 06:34 PM (dfYL9)

175 Well, with all due respect, I hope pets do have souls, unfortunately it appears they don't according to most Christian doctrine.

Wishing it was so, does not make it so.

http://tinyurl.com/lf8w5tm
Posted by: Nip Sip



"appears" and "most" are not your strongest arguments. I suppose you do derive some confidence from the church never being wrong.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:34 PM (Z9EHQ)

176 Laws are ineffective against nihilism.

If someone old enough to know its wrong, and understand the consequences if caught, and STILL not give a shit, thinks its OK to just kill some random person on the street because they're bored, there's no law or level of enforcement that can ever stop that.

That pair could have hit the guy with a pipe if they didn't have a gun. If they didn't have a pipe or gun, they'd have run him down with their car, etc, etc.

***

It took a very long time, and I was well into my 30's, before I came to terms with the death penalty.

On rare occasions, I can see the benefit in it.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:34 PM (DmNpO)

177 I don't know if pets have a "soul", but they help mightily in soothing mine.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 06:34 PM (ZshNr)

178 Consider that I just went to a talk by a Christian (Catholic?) Theologian who insisted that the experiments on apes (chimps? I forget which specifically) that served as precursor experiments for the development of neural implants to aid paralytics were wrong because and I quote "We don't really need biomechanical arms for paralytics."

I almost fell over.
Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!)



so humans are not available?

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:35 PM (Z9EHQ)

179 I hope pets do have souls, unfortunately it appears they don't according to most Christian doctrine.

Oh, really? This is from the church that preaches the all-merciful God out of one side of its mouth and the eternal fires of hell out of the other?

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 06:35 PM (8lmkt)

180
I can see the benefit in it.


A recidivism rate of 0 is hard to argue with.

Posted by: garrett at October 19, 2013 06:36 PM (vo9JA)

181 173--- Eh, Terry'd be fine: professional courtesy.

Posted by: speedster1 on the iPad at October 19, 2013 06:33 PM (naplm)
-------------------------------
Ha! Good one!
VERY good one!

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 06:36 PM (dfYL9)

182 182 MDV

/blushes

Posted by: speedster1 on the iPad at October 19, 2013 06:37 PM (naplm)

183
...and Ducks are evil
That's why we must shoot them. At least that's what I tell my friends kids when get back from the blind.

Posted by: garrett at October 19, 2013 06:37 PM (vo9JA)

184 I think the concern is NDH, that by even bringing up the idea of "Evil" (common or spiritual) it runs to close to the common attacks that are hurled at us by animal rights groups.

Consider that I just went to a talk by a Christian (Catholic?) Theologian who insisted that the experiments on apes (chimps? I forget which specifically) that served as precursor experiments for the development of neural implants to aid paralytics were wrong because and I quote "We don't really need biomechanical arms for paralytics."

I almost fell over.

***

As would I. That argument is just that ridiculous. Would he prefer the experiments be conducted on humans or that the research not be conducted at all?

As for EVIL, I do believe it exists and I do believe that those who would fight dogs have it within their hearts.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:37 PM (DmNpO)

185 Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:35 PM (Z9EHQ)

Can't tell if joking?

But my understanding is they are currently tested in humans, but we had to get to that point first.

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 06:38 PM (GaqMa)

186

"I love the smell of (naplm) in the morning...it smells bacon."

-- Brian Dennehy
Apocoplyspe Now


Posted by: soothie at October 19, 2013 06:38 PM (8xlPS)

187 ...and Ducks are evil
That's why we must shoot them. At least that's what I tell my friends kids when get back from the blind.

***

Not THIS duck!

http://t.co/UcEfedzuv8

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:38 PM (DmNpO)

188 Christians believe that to get to heaven you must accept Christ as your Savior and that is the ONLY way to heaven.

Trying to figure out how a dog/pet does that?

Help me out.

Posted by: Nip Sip at October 19, 2013 06:39 PM (0FSuD)

189

"Just stay in the boat."

-- Brian Dennehy

Posted by: soothie at October 19, 2013 06:39 PM (8xlPS)

190 I go with CS Lewis.
We don't know if our beloved pets (or new ones) will meet us in heaven.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 06:39 PM (dfYL9)

191 I don't know if pets have a "soul", but they help mightily in soothing mine.

***

As do mine.

I was raised to believe they do not, but it's still difficult to imagine/accept.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:40 PM (DmNpO)

192 Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:37 PM (DmNpO)

He would prefer they not be done altogether.

Also you don't *need* that steak or that chicken.

I didn't say it made sense, I'm just pointing out that we occasionally get unwittingly sucked in to language we didn't intend.

I also believe that there is evil in the world, and dog fighters probably have it in their hearts.
I just took umbrage with what appeared to be a net to widely cast .

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 06:43 PM (GaqMa)

193 Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:35 PM (Z9EHQ)

Can't tell if joking?

But my understanding is they are currently tested in humans, but we had to get to that point first.
Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!)



not joking. animal testing has benefited humans but it has done so at the expense of animals. absence of a soul is not sanction to mistreat something. how do you justify taking a perfectly healthy animal and inflicting what is enduring pain to benefit a human?

even then there are gradations within animal testing. animal testing for medical research is perhaps more understandable than animal testing for cosmetics and household cleaners.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:44 PM (Z9EHQ)

194 If dogs have souls, I guess it would imply that cockroaches have souls as well. That would open a can of worms, who would presumably have souls as well.

Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability at October 19, 2013 06:44 PM (QupBk)

195
Your attacks are so far out in left field as to make one wonder what lurks within your conscience.


Aaaaand the inevitable "thoughtcrime" is accused.

Read it again, I mentioned "read above" where other Posters (which is why I told you guys to "read above") started to salivate over hurting and killing HUMANS for their actions against animals.

And of course, you start with the thoughtcrime. Like you hysterical animal rights freaks always end up.

Eyelash or less I should have written. Because it is obviously less than that in your case.

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at October 19, 2013 06:44 PM (VFtsA)

196 189 --- The rules for humans and those for animals would have to be quite different. Humans, who are fallen and morally responsible, NEED salvation. Animal life may have been corrupted on earth by Satan and our sin, but animals themselves are sinless. They don't need redemption.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 06:45 PM (dfYL9)

197 New post up.

Feel free to cast aspersions.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at October 19, 2013 06:45 PM (DmNpO)

198 and another thing, what is the difference in animal and human behavior that would lead anyone to conclude that humans possessed souls but not animals?

Any and every decent instinct ever demonstrated by a human is demonstrated by animals. biggest difference between animals and humans is that the animals never demonstrate evil.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:46 PM (Z9EHQ)

199 They don't need redemption.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 06:45 PM (dfYL9)

They do need to accept Christ. So how?

Posted by: Nip Sip at October 19, 2013 06:46 PM (0FSuD)

200 how do you justify taking a perfectly healthy animal and inflicting what is enduring pain to benefit a human?


How I justify it? With gusto.

But setting aside what would be a small paper's worth of writing, I'd note that the cosmetic industry will forever be the bane of medical research as their conflation in the general population has slowed/stopped research at many a place via regulatory overstretch (dissertation forthcoming.)

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 06:46 PM (GaqMa)

201 If someone old enough to know its wrong, and understand the consequences
if caught, and STILL not give a shit, thinks its OK to just kill some
random person on the street because they're bored, there's no law or
level of enforcement that can ever stop that.


We're already there, you know.
http://is.gd/tjzmcY

Posted by: HeatherRadish™, drinking heavily at October 19, 2013 06:47 PM (hO8IJ)

202
question: Rex Ryan and the sweater vest, Yay or Nay?

Posted by: soothie at October 19, 2013 06:47 PM (8xlPS)

203 Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:46 PM (Z9EHQ)

I highly recommend Adrian Morrison's "An odyssey with Animals" he goes through is many years doing sleep research and discusses many of these topics in a way that I cannot in the space and time required here.

Posted by: tsrblke PhD(c) (No Really!) at October 19, 2013 06:48 PM (GaqMa)

204 If dogs have souls, I guess it would imply that cockroaches have souls as well. That would open a can of worms, who would presumably have souls as well.
Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability


so where do you draw the line for souls? sentience, moral agency? you are not gonna like how those translate to humans.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:48 PM (Z9EHQ)

205 It took a very long time, and I was well into my 30's, before I came to terms with the death penalty.

Historically, all long lived civilizations had bare minimum standards for behavior enforced to ensure their survival and order.

That notion goes all the way back to the Code of Hammurabi which specified quite a few death penalty offenses.

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 06:48 PM (l5zzX)

206 Though totally heretical, I could accept that animals get reincarnated back into the world, or return to the gaia spirit or whatever. Like the Elves of Tolkien, they are bound to the Circle of the World, while we go whither they knowest not.

Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability at October 19, 2013 06:49 PM (QupBk)

207 Christians believe that to get to heaven you must accept Christ as your Savior and that is the ONLY way to heaven.



Trying to figure out how a dog/pet does that?



Help me out.

Posted by: Nip Sip at October 19, 2013 06:39 PM (0FSuD)

Well, like myself, you can go to the Old Testament and hang out with God the Father and not give a flying fuck what anyone else thinks.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 06:49 PM (8lmkt)

208 so where do you draw the line for souls?

Species. Human, not human.

Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability at October 19, 2013 06:49 PM (QupBk)

209 Christians believe that to get to heaven you must accept Christ as your Savior and that is the ONLY way to heaven.



Trying to figure out how a dog/pet does that?



Help me out.

Posted by: Nip Sip at October 19, 2013 06:39 PM (0FSuD)



so children and mentally disabled are not getting in?

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:50 PM (Z9EHQ)

210 200 ---They do need to accept Christ. So how?
Posted by: Nip Sip at October 19, 2013 06:46 PM (0FSuD)
-----------------
No. Humans need to.
You don't know what the rules are for animals.
All we know is that God created them and called them good.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at October 19, 2013 06:51 PM (dfYL9)

211 so where do you draw the line for souls?

Species. Human, not human.
Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability



yeah well, expediency is not the underlying principle of Christianity. It may be a can of worms but ignoring the can of worms does not get you any points for your immortal soul at crunch time.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:52 PM (Z9EHQ)

212 yeah well, expediency is not the underlying principle of Christianity. It may be a can of worms but ignoring the can of worms does not get you any points for your immortal soul at crunch time.

?

Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability at October 19, 2013 06:53 PM (QupBk)

213 I guess it would imply that cockroaches have souls as well.

My conjecture is you'd need to see variability in the behaviors of specific individuals before declaring some critter more than just a bio-machine.

Most mammals, birds, and even reptiles do exhibit that sort of individual variability. I've seen it in the little lizards that are all over outside my house. Among the same species, they do exhibit slightly different personalities (within their general lizardy patterns of behavior)

I can't tell one roach or ant from another though.

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 06:54 PM (l5zzX)

214 I've observed individualistic behavior in robins to cats to turtles to horses. They have a measure of sentence that can't be ignored.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 06:57 PM (ZshNr)

215 Sentience

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 06:58 PM (ZshNr)

216 If dogs have souls, I guess it would imply that cockroaches have souls as well. That would open a can of worms, who would presumably have souls as well.
Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability


so where do you draw the line for souls?

Species. Human, not human.
Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability




yeah well, expediency is not the underlying principle of Christianity. It may be a can of worms but ignoring the can of worms does not get you any points for your immortal soul at crunch time.

?
Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability



I assumed you were saying that allowing for non-humans to have souls would open a can of worms that would give everything a soul. Giving everything a soul would complicate everything. Avoiding the complication of giving everything a soul is something a matter of expedience.

if I misunderstood I apologize.

I would suggest that simply seeking a simpler solution by not allowing for animals to have souls is not the right thing to do. figuring out how to deal with animals having souls is.


Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 06:59 PM (Z9EHQ)

217 214
I can't tell one roach or ant from another though.


For ants, you probably have to go with "the whole colony is the one organism." Do they have interesting differences at that level? Dunno.

Roaches seem like dirty creepy biological machines.

Posted by: Splunge at October 19, 2013 06:59 PM (bKA83)

218 216
Sentience



Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 06:58 PM (ZshNr)

yes, that. that is where I draw my own personal line in the sand.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 07:00 PM (8lmkt)

219 Sentience
Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 06:58



sentience does nothing for children and mentally disabled.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 07:01 PM (Z9EHQ)

220 "biggest difference between animals and humans is that the animals never demonstrate evil".

And this proves you haven't any experience raising animals or living in the country among them - or observing them in hunting.

You have never seen a weasel hunt, or a coyote or the remnants of a herd savaged and strewn for fun (left steaming uneaten in the sun) by a pack of wolves. You've never seen anything but Disney films to base your belief system on I suspect.

Your ideas about nature are obviously not taken from observation - are they from repeated viewings of Bambi, perchance?

Animals can be quite cruel - if cruelty is your standard against which you weigh evil, then they are by all measures evil.
Wolverines are so foul they make their kills inedible out of pure spite with their musk spray - even buzzards will puke, leaving the entire carcass to rot. They will kill for fun. So will otters, cats, and canines of all types. (though I do not personally know if jackals do, but wolves, dogs, coyotes, and foxes all do).

Weasels and cats torture their prey for fun and leave them to bleed out. Same for any predator I have hunted including cougar.

Personal opinions should always be open for revisions when you do not possess in-person experience, don't you agree?

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at October 19, 2013 07:02 PM (VFtsA)

221 I would suggest that simply seeking a simpler solution by not allowing for animals to have souls is not the right thing to do. figuring out how to deal with animals having souls is.

Ah. But how would one prove that animals have souls to deal with? And by soul, I assume you mean something that remains after physical death. Where would the evidence be found? I don't see the evidence for humans having a soul except for scripture. So I don't see that it's expedient to act as though something exists for which there is no evidence. I choose to believe Christian scripture but it's not evidence. I'm opposed to cruelty against animals, not for the sake of the animals, but for the sake of the humans.

Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability at October 19, 2013 07:05 PM (QupBk)

222 I eat live oysters.

Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability at October 19, 2013 07:08 PM (QupBk)

223
Of course dogs have souls. I firmly believe this, and am totally uninterested in arguing otherwise.

Posted by: irongrampa at October 19, 2013 07:09 PM (SAMxH)

224 But I anesthetize them with lemon juice.

Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability at October 19, 2013 07:09 PM (QupBk)

225 I bet lizard heaven is full of tasty moths and gnats.

Posted by: Purp at October 19, 2013 07:10 PM (l5zzX)

226 "biggest difference between animals and humans is that the animals never demonstrate evil".
-----------------

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.

Posted by: Mark Twain at October 19, 2013 07:12 PM (aDwsi)

227 I eat live oysters.

ew, gack . . . but not because they are "alive," but because they are like giant loogies.

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 07:12 PM (8lmkt)

228 Nip Sip --

In your religion, maybe. In mine, both animals and humans are part of a continuum, and much is expected of humans because of greater intelligence. Animals need not make many of the choices humans must, and so if we make it to "heaven", we will find animals there as well.

Posted by: Empire1 at October 19, 2013 07:13 PM (5HPSn)

229 Weasels and cats torture their prey for fun and leave them to bleed out. Same for any predator I have hunted including cougar.

Personal opinions should always be open for revisions when you do not possess in-person experience, don't you agree?
Posted by: Inspector Asshole



you seem to be conflicted between you assumptions and lack of understanding.

first, your assumptions about my experience are plain wrong. I have more than passing acquaintance with animals in a variety of environments. I may be ensconced in the big city with a pair of dogs but my time on cattle ranches and in the field have given me experience at least equal to yours.

you describe behaviors which are not inherently evil. evil would necessitate that they behaved as you describe because they are seeking to maximize or somehow enjoying the suffering of prey. it is ugly and heartwrenching to see but not evil.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 07:13 PM (Z9EHQ)

230 Who cares if there are mosquitoes in Heaven, they won't be hungry. It's Heaven.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 07:14 PM (ZshNr)

231
Old Story:
An elderly lady asks her priest if her dog will be with her in heaven.

The priest points out there is no scriptural basis for believing that animals have souls, or that they join the afterlife.

"But," says the lady, "I could never be happy if my dog was not there."

"In that case," replies the priest, "your dog will certainly be there."

Posted by: Mark Twain at October 19, 2013 07:16 PM (aDwsi)

232 More Mark Twain:

"It is a solemn thought: dead, the noblest man's meat is inferior to pork."

Posted by: Mark Twain at October 19, 2013 07:17 PM (aDwsi)

233 Ah. But how would one prove that animals have souls to deal with? And by soul, I assume you mean something that remains after physical death. Where would the evidence be found? I don't see the evidence for humans having a soul except for scripture. So I don't see that it's expedient to act as though something exists for which there is no evidence. I choose to believe Christian scripture but it's not evidence. I'm opposed to cruelty against animals, not for the sake of the animals, but for the sake of the humans.
Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability



look, it is simply unreasonable to assume that animals do not have souls. simply because it was not addressed in the scripture does not indicate anything one way or the other.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 07:17 PM (Z9EHQ)

234 look, it is simply unreasonable to assume that
animals do not have souls. simply because it was not addressed in the
scripture does not indicate anything one way or the other.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 07:17 PM (Z9EHQ)

beautifully stated, Y5 . . . xoxo

Posted by: Peaches at October 19, 2013 07:20 PM (8lmkt)

235 If I was still at St.John's High and got the question, "Do animals have souls?", I would have answered NO, and taken my A. I said a lot of shit I didn't believe back then.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 19, 2013 07:22 PM (ZshNr)

236 look, it is simply unreasonable to assume that animals do not have souls. simply because it was not addressed in the scripture does not indicate anything one way or the other.

I have to shrug. I have no other evidence for the existence of any souls. I might grant that it's not unreasonable to assume they do, but I don't share that belief and fail to see the expedience of that as a moral failing on my part.

Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability at October 19, 2013 07:22 PM (QupBk)

237 I volunteered for a few years at spay/neuter clinics, the last two at The Cube. This was an area within the Philadelphia SPCA's building in which my organization conducted weekly spay/neuter clinics for stray and feral cats; it also offered services for low-income people who couldn't afford a regular vet. It was a large open room with an OR toward the back; there were plexiglass walls separating the OR from the rest of The Cube, so we could see what was going on and could watch the vets operate if we chose to do so. It was in my interest to do so, as I worked in post-surgical recovery and needed to know if everything was routine or if extra care would be needed.

When one works in a medical/veterinary setting like that one gets used to seeing pain and other disturbing things. I'll never forget the first time I saw a spay/abort surgery--a spay surgery on a pregnant animal. I thought that poor cat was being eviscerated!

When we did blood draws for FIV/FELV testing, I often had to help hold the cat down while the vet tech tried to get the needle into the vein inside the thigh. I've given blood myself and I know that the initial stick is the most painful part, but I at least volunteered--the cat didn't. I've got the bite and claw marks to prove it.

One gets used to this sort of thing over time, especially when one realizes that animals can't say, "Yo, buddy! It hurts HERE, not there!" But that's not the same as inflicting pain for the sake of it or just for amusement.

One winter we had a cat brought in that was burned over most of its body by hot tar--some roofer decided to dump his tar on it. The vet made the decision to put the cat down as it couldn't be saved. It was given a knock-out shot before the lethal injection; the latter turned out not to be necessary.

The stories I can tell are pretty upsetting, but again one needs to grow a thick skin to do that kind of work. That's not the same as taking pleasure in it. Humor becomes a coping mechanism and should not be confused with sadism.

We had a clinic where one cat died and was wrapped in a towel for disposal. Normally the bodies were picked up before we left, but that day it was left on a shelf. We knew someone would pick it up, but just in case I put a sign on the body saying, "This cat is not just merely dead it's very most sincerely dead!" We laughed, left, and came back the next week for the next round....

Posted by: Jenk at October 19, 2013 07:24 PM (8xKUx)

238 I think of my pets as angels on loan from heaven. If they can love us they must have souls. Anyway, it wouldn't be heaven without them, and I trust my creator to know that.

Posted by: venus velvet at October 19, 2013 07:29 PM (g94P/)

239 I have to shrug. I have no other evidence for the existence of any souls. I might grant that it's not unreasonable to assume they do, but I don't share that belief and fail to see the expedience of that as a moral failing on my part.
Posted by: toby928© Alabama Alumnus and Native Texan, now with twice the insufferability a


I never meant to imply that an inability to see that animals have sold is a moral failing. I would suggest that it is illogical to assume that they do not since there is no more "evidence" that humans have souls than animals. regardless of whether or not they have souls I would argue that inflicting pain on a human or animal unnecessarily is going to leave a mark on your immortal that is not going to be smiled upon at the pearly gates.

Posted by: yankeefifth at October 19, 2013 07:46 PM (Z9EHQ)






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