NBC: Rand Paul Privately Objected to Ted Cruz's Filibuster-the-Defund Tactic


Eh.

You know the thing that bothers me here? It's not whether or not Cruz wins or not (he won't), and it's not whether the Establishment is vindicated or not (and when you're partly arranging for your own vindication, that's not such an achievement).

What bothers me is the Hot Talk about crap that most of us, frankly, know very little about, and I include myself. I'll confess that when Gabe and Drew were discussing defund vs. delay on the podcast, I honestly had no idea what they were talking about. I was just silent, because I was listening. Learning.

Right now there are all these Narratives cooked up -- by our side; we have our own Narratives too -- about Cruz the Hero and how anyone who thought this plan was a bit cockamamie is a RINO.

And everyone's shouting, and everyone's full of emotion, and shouting crowds out talking and emotion crowds out thinking.

Well, this Rand Paul thing, if true, sort of pricks the balloon of the easy Narratives where the world gets divided neatly into Black Hats and White Hats.

Which is something we all should have known, and when I say "we" I mean me first of all.

I personally ventured a lot of conveniently vague opinions on this stuff without really having much good thinking to support those opinions.

I think online stuff is very much geared to produce "momentum" for ideas, or people, or products. And there's a viral mindset we online (I include myself again) have, where "success" is determined by whether one can help gin up some viral momentum for something.

It's sort of the Drudge Siren idea (which I of course swiped and made a Flaming Skull). There's a certain amount of fun or satisfaction in pushing something out there, or pushing something along. But I think maybe it's too much fun, or there's too much satisfaction in it.

To the extent it becomes overvalued, or over-rewarded, and therefore over-done.

And this requires, as any political campaign does, the excision of facts that messy up clean Narratives. And it also requires an application of heat to get the soup boiling.

And in the end, what? This is all foolish. This wasn't going to work. So what was all the fighting about? The symbolism of it? Do we usually have Enormous Bruising Fights over stuff that is completely symbolic and without force?

This reminds me again that we seem to want to fight other conservative-leaning people more than we want to fight Democrats. We don't like Reid, but we hate the RINOs among us.

I don't know. People will probably tell me not to give up the fight, and actually I intended to not say anything about how cockamamie I've come to think this all is until it was over, so as not to hurt the cause.

But I'm not sure what the cause is, here, exactly. It seems pretty obvious that Cruz is not going to prevail on this point. So it's not about that.

It seems pretty plain to me now at this point this was a purely tactical argument about a hypothetical plan to defund ObamaCare (which was never in the cards). It is largely about political positioning.

And it doesn't seem to me, then, this being about procedure over a hypothetical plan, that so much emotion should have attached to it.

This isn't to say that there was no debate to be had. But given that this was largely just about procedure and tactics for a doomed cause, should there have been so much emotional debate over it? Should this have been trigger for the 6,000th RINO vs. TrueCon meltdown?*

This is just how I'm feeling right now. I'm feeling like, "What the hell was all this about?" Apparently nothing, it turns out.


* I'm not knocking the TrueCons, actually. I'm knocking everyone. The RINOs sure got pretty hot over all this too. The oppo dumb to Chris Wallace was a nice, classy touch.

It's like one of those arguments that people in doomed marriages have in which they start screaming at each other over the most trivial things -- "Did you wear my sweatshirt without asking me?!"

Because the argument is not about the sweatshirt; it's about the fact that both parties want to split and go their separate ways.

Eh. This is part of the reason I don't even want to be a part of this party. The party is in an unstable state and really cannot do much of anything until it works its own shit about.

Now here's something heartwarming.

Uh, ignore the fact that the lyrics aren't quite appropriate here. Don't overthink it.

Thanks to @Andrews_Dad.

Posted by: Ace at 04:36 PM



Comments

1 first

Posted by: mallfly at September 24, 2013 04:38 PM (bJm7W)

2 foisty?

Posted by: ButwhaddaIknow? at September 24, 2013 04:39 PM (5aT64)

3 Rand may have opposed it but you can bet he will support him now that it is taking place.

Some members of Congress still believe in loyalty.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 04:39 PM (DmNpO)

4 and if the Repubs really go through with this and put up a fight, they very likely win one important thing: the Tea Party will be back for next year's election

Posted by: mallfly at September 24, 2013 04:39 PM (bJm7W)

5 Private you say?? Hmm

Posted by: traye at September 24, 2013 04:39 PM (Or87o)

6
I'm feeling like, "What the hell was all this about?"


Crossfit. That and Scandis. Worse still, Crossfitting Scandis.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 24, 2013 04:39 PM (t06LC)

7 "What the hell was all this about?"

2016?

Posted by: Blanco Basura at September 24, 2013 04:40 PM (4WhSY)

8 Whats really amazing is that 3 people favorited that tweet.

Posted by: dananjcon at September 24, 2013 04:40 PM (wmU4G)

9 NBC? The "news" organization that deceptively edits 911 audio, straps bombs to Ford Explorers, and continues to employ Al Sharpton? That NBC?


Posted by: Jaws at September 24, 2013 04:41 PM (4I3Uo)

10 Thomas Sowell came out against the defund movement.

Yesterday I asked, quite genuinely, why everyone was adamant about using the debt ceiling leverage for this rather than the much more serious issue of deficit reduction.

The first response was "Get out RINO".

And yet Drew says that anyone who objects to Cruz's non-strategy is a member of "the stupid party".

The mind boggles.

Posted by: Jason at September 24, 2013 04:41 PM (6VB4r)

11

Yeah, I'm with you, I don't have a terribly well formed opinion on the tactics in play here.

But what pisses me off about this "news" about Rand Paul is that some asshole GOP hack leaked this info to NBC News.

We always hear about the "Big Tent" and that we should be okay with moderates in the GOP. And I agree. But most conservatives are fine with that. What is never noted is the amount of venom that the moderates in the GOP have for the conservative wing of the party.

I thought it was supposed to be a Big Tent?

Posted by: dan-O at September 24, 2013 04:41 PM (D0bIN)

12 If its Tweeted, no its not private. Or is there an NSA app for this?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at September 24, 2013 04:42 PM (/WGNb)

13 and Obama's speech at the UN was historic because it was the very first time in history that a US President gave a speech at the UN on Sept 24 2013. The fact that he didn't trip on his way to or from the lectern (or whatever they call) probably counts for something, too.

Posted by: mallfly at September 24, 2013 04:42 PM (bJm7W)

14

Grandstanding has its advantages.
Just ask the democrats.

Call it our Hollywood moment, then.

I don't care.

I'm tired of not having a voice, or venue for our voices.

When Rand filibustered, (more) people paid attention.

When Cruz talk-filibusters, let's hope (more) people are paying attention.

Where else will we get exposure?
Where else do we take a stand?

Do we wait for elections? I sadly think that will not work out too well for us if we do.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at September 24, 2013 04:42 PM (IXrOn)

15 Ya same here.

I just found out that supposedly members of Congress will still get paid during a government shutdown--so they are excepted from that even!

Posted by: tasker at September 24, 2013 04:42 PM (r2PLg)

16 1) Oppo research on Cruz leaked to Chris Wallace.
2) Details of "private meeting" leaked to NBC.

What's that thing about "third time is enemy action?"

Posted by: RoyalOil at September 24, 2013 04:42 PM (VjL9S)

17 It certainly has served the purpose of exposing the perfidy of some people.

Posted by: RolandTHTG at September 24, 2013 04:42 PM (QM5S2)

18 Whatever the result it, I just hope my man Ted is wearing a pair super-doody depends and goes at it for days. F it, he may as well get as much attention as possible.

Posted by: Pipe Holder at September 24, 2013 04:42 PM (VTeUD)

19

Is it only the left-squeaky-emo-wheel that gets the grease?

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at September 24, 2013 04:43 PM (IXrOn)

20 To save time in figuring it all out, I'll take the shortcut of holding to the opposite of McCain's view.

Posted by: rockhead at September 24, 2013 04:43 PM (jtTKf)

21
Noted RINO Thomas Sowell also says this has been a stupid waste of time and energy. I'm sure we'll manage to turn this into 2 or 3 lost Senate Seats by replacing incumbents with Sharron Angle clones in primaries.

Posted by: buzz at September 24, 2013 04:43 PM (i27M5)

22 unsourced statement critical of Cruz? From a Private REPUBLICAN meeting??? How... novel...

Can you say John McCain?

Posted by: Romeo13 at September 24, 2013 04:44 PM (lZBBB)

23 What's that thing about "third time is enemy action?"

***

The FIRST time was enemy action.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 04:44 PM (DmNpO)

24 Partisanry deprives the party of a reason to pay attention to you. Far better to have your own principles and vote according to who best fits them.

Posted by: Francis W. Porretto at September 24, 2013 04:44 PM (d2g9U)

25 I'd rather go down fighting than having no fight at all, a la France, 1940.

Posted by: Sam at September 24, 2013 04:44 PM (gpLiM)

26
Actually this isn't at all a surprise.
Think back to socialist parliments in the early 20th century. At one time the socialists all sat together in the left wing. Over time though, they began to have serious fights (fist fights from what I understand) over political differences not with the conservatives, but rather fellow socialists. To remedy this, the fascists (socialists) were sent to the far right of parliament and the communists were sent to the left. Both socialists, but they despised each other over means of being socialists.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 24, 2013 04:44 PM (t06LC)

27 Because the argument is not about the sweatshirt; it's about the fact that both parties want to split and go their separate ways.


Ding ding ding ding ding.

Winner winner chicken dinner.


I think this sums up where everyone (except me because I'm above such pettiness) is right now.


http://bit.ly/16oTA40

Posted by: alexthechick - Booze. Not just for breakfast. at September 24, 2013 04:44 PM (VtjlW)

28 You disappoint me, young Paul.

Posted by: Aqua Buddha at September 24, 2013 04:45 PM (nKFzF)

29 "When Rand filibustered, (more) people paid attention.

When Cruz talk-filibusters, let's hope (more) people are paying attention."

Yeah but that's the thing. This seems to be just an attention-whoring act by Cruz, since Rand has been getting all the love lately. I cannot for the life of me see a coherent strategy here other than "look at me". Rand at least got Holder to concede that he couldn't assisinate an American citizen.

Posted by: Jason at September 24, 2013 04:45 PM (6VB4r)

30 It's like one of those arguments that people in doomed marriages have in which they start screaming at each other over the most trivial things -- "Did you wear my sweatshirt without asking me?!"

Did anybody else besides me hear this in a Paul Anka voice?

Posted by: jakeman at September 24, 2013 04:45 PM (vH4YP)

31
So I ain't the only wondering WTF is the most helpful course of action on this issue. I don't consider myself super smart by any stretch but this thing has me flummoxed. I don't know WTF is up or down on this.

Posted by: fastfreefall at September 24, 2013 04:45 PM (awLVJ)

32 Welcome back, Ace. I figured you'd come to your senses sooner or later.

And yeah, I get that people are angry, frustrated and want something to be done, even if they don't exactly know what. That they're looking for someone to blame besides the obvious actors (Democrats).

I believe that as Americans we have an especially difficult time when confronted by an unsolvable problem. It's not in our DNA to accept that there are some goals we're unable to achieve, no matter how hard we try.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 04:46 PM (SY2Kh)

33 Well as I pointed out in the prior two threads, Rand Paul's rhetoric has been much more responsible and thoughtful than Ted Cruz's. This would definitely explain that.

What a day for RINO-hunting, though! First Thomas Sowell was excommunicated, now Rand Paul.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 04:46 PM (n/+FT)

34 We needed the fight, if for no other reason than to get the establishment's ossified asses out of the la-z-boy. We all know there is no better plan coming down the road (Wait!!! We'll fight on the debt ceiling budget CR!!!).
I'm just thrilled someone is calling these fascist scumbags out and making them take a public stand on supporting 0vomitcare and every other nauseating piece of crap legislation the foist on us (but not on themselves). It also helps to know who to support in the primaries as well...

Posted by: jcv123 at September 24, 2013 04:46 PM (SSrsH)

35 I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!

Posted by: Animal House of Representatives at September 24, 2013 04:47 PM (QM5S2)

36 I have sat back and listened to Cruz while reading the comments on the previous Jeff B. Ace stomp. Sorry Ace. I have just about had it with all this "Cruz is wrong, it won't work, it's not smart, blah,blah, blah." Maybe every bit of that is true, I don't know. I do know when you're backed against the wall and about to get your ass kicked (Obamacare implementation), you can lay down or you can at least hit somebody. What you don't need is people on your side telling you "take your ass kicking because later we'll fix it." F-THAT! Cruz may be wrong but at least he's fighting. It may be futile but it's something. Damn I hate this crap.

Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at September 24, 2013 04:47 PM (X+nFp)

37 When do we get out the papier-mache heads?

Posted by: Roy at September 24, 2013 04:47 PM (VndSC)

38 Nobody "excommunicated" Rand Paul or Thomas Sowell. They said they disagreed with them about this

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 24, 2013 04:48 PM (a4Omg)

39 What is the point of a delay? Can someone explain it to me? It seems to me, but I'm quite stupid, rather counterproductive.

Obama has already decided to delay parts of the law unilaterally. This would (1) give him political cover (2) actual legal authority he was previously lacking, and (3) allow his bureaucratic minions to halfway pull their heads out of their asses and implement the law in a somewhat coherent fashion.

All this would make it more likely the law sticks around and ruins our lives more completely.

Posted by: wte9 at September 24, 2013 04:48 PM (ZL7LA)

40 and I wonder what other GOP Senators happened to be at this "private" meeting?

Posted by: tofer732 at September 24, 2013 04:48 PM (z3MpN)

41 Since everyone is skittering over here, reposting from last thread. . . because even Ewoks need coin to pay for exorbiant health care costs.

"Ace, if you want a money idea. . . write a book
featuring the best of your classic posts like the Scandi one, the best
humor or hard hitting from the past decade, you can do diff categories in the book if you
wish. Get it ready to release next year on the tenth year(?) anniversary
of the AoS blog. Maybe add some new stuff, ppl like new stuff too. Put
on the Amazon, we all buy thru your amazon portal. . . PROFIT! One of
the few underpant gnome plots that will work.


Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 04:40 PM (8wqqE)"

Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 04:48 PM (8wqqE)

42
@7
Tactically speaking you're right and I view Mr. Paul's statements with a degree of skepticism. Paul shot to prominence with his filibuster over drone policy and got some non-binding statement on something only a few people really cared about. What would a filibuster over something 60% of the country hates do for Cruz's prominence? Who is going to be in the 2016 field?

Eh, this might not be about strategy so much as tactics and Cruz got there first.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 24, 2013 04:48 PM (t06LC)

43 It will be teh old news by this time next week. (I think).

Posted by: Serious Cat at September 24, 2013 04:48 PM (UypUQ)

44 So, when do we play that "Who gets the family Bible?" song from Stepbrothers?

When do we get to the fun part of mom and dad trying to out-do each other gift-wise come Christmas and birthdays?

'Cause I'll be damned but so far mom and dad haven't given me shit.

Mostly, I've gotten slapped and told, "You shut your fucking mouth! If it wasn't for me, you'd be living on the street!"

Posted by: RoyalOil at September 24, 2013 04:48 PM (VjL9S)

45 >>> Sorry Ace. I have just about had it with all this "Cruz is wrong, it
won't work, it's not smart, blah,blah, blah." Maybe every bit of that is
true, I don't know. I do know when you're backed against the wall and
about to get your ass kicked (Obamacare implementation), you can lay
down or you can at least hit somebody

i hear ya, as an emotional matter, but if we're arguing about Futile Gestures, I don't know what the hell we're arguing about.

It seems to be an argument that "My Futile Gesture is better than Your Futile Gesture."


Posted by: ace at September 24, 2013 04:48 PM (/IWYB)

46
OT: Anthropologists be crazy.

I'm just hearing about all the pervy things they did to the Yanomami. They introduced prostitution and pretty much molested all the little boys and girls. And everybody looked the other way....

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (T0Pku)

47 Are we really taking an anonymously sourced NBC peacock dropping as gospel without any verification? Have we learned nothing?

Posted by: Jaws at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (4I3Uo)

48 The Germans suffered about 157, 000 caualties in the 1940 campaign,so I wouldn't say the French didn't fight at all(yeah,the Brits accounted for some of those casualties)

Posted by: steevy at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (9XBK2)

49 I just want those motherfucker to DO SOMETHING. Bronco Bama and his no budget having ass has to be reigned in, and only the fucking congress can do it.


But, they won't. Cuz, most of 'em are pussy douchebags. In fact, forget the RINO tag; know when I say pussy douchebags, that's what I mean.


Fuck the drama. Shut it down.

Posted by: Beefy at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (yn6XZ)

50 If its Tweeted, no its not private.

Is the Library of Congress still archiving every non-protected tweet?

Posted by: HeatherRadish™, BFD, ZOMG, WTF, BBQ, QED at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (/kI1Q)

51
>>>"What the hell was all this about?"

Sounds like Duke crying to Marlene in the car outside the store.

Posted by: Bigby's Typing Hands at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (3ZtZW)

52 Screw the book, the big money is in T-Shirt sales!

Posted by: garrett at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (nKFzF)

53 Ace,

This is about who has the biggest dick.


ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?!?!?!

Posted by: cajun caret at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (UZQM8)

54 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) MFM Delenda Est at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (/PCJa)

55 Shutdown of the Federal Government: Causes, Processes, and Effects


http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34680.pdf

Supposedly social security checks still go out.

Active duty military--do not get paid--their pay accrues until appropriations are available.

Military retirees and reservists I think would be the same.

Military civilian contractors could be furloughed and not paid during the shutdown .

DC is in a weird category ....

Let's see what else.

Air traffic control is essential and not affected.


And get your passports now--because they suspend I think.

And Congress gets paid and even some of their staffers get paid due to some special loop hole--according to some sources.

Posted by: tasker at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (r2PLg)

56 Burn it down.
Scatter the stones.
Salt the earth where it stood.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) MFM Delenda Est at September 24, 2013 04:49 PM (/PCJa)

57 Are any of these motherless ckufs with Cruz?

Posted by: Boss Moss former editor of the Harvard Law Review at September 24, 2013 04:50 PM (0axsw)

58 Simple solution: Filibuster, but make the content of the filibuster a harangue (yes, I don't mind using that term) of the *American people* for having elected Harry Reid's majority.
Of course it sounds like a downer and an electorally inadvisable move. Of course.
But how different is it from the GOP infighting anyway? And it's not Obama telling the American people that they are not worthy of him and his vision. It's conservatives telling the American people that they are failing themselves and electing unworthies.
We can't shame Dem-side politicians (and Establishment GOP types) for both their words and their actions, on the floor of the US Capitol chambers, because these are brazen hucksters with no shame to begin with.
So we need to wake up to and attack the root-cause issue.
Pipe-dream it may be, but why not try flooding the Cruz/Lee/Paul/whoever communication banks with demands that they name and shame an American public that elects an Obamacare-enabling political class?
Can it truly hurt to try that?

Posted by: RamonAllones at September 24, 2013 04:50 PM (3lLli)

59 Part of this is the "death by a thousand cuts" strategy.

It's another tiny, tiny prick in the enormous Obamacare Grendel. So it's still useful in my opinion.

Posted by: Eton Cox at September 24, 2013 04:50 PM (q177U)

60
1. Screw NBC, they are probably lying.

2. If lying or not, the word has been put out to destroy Cruz, they are going to try to Bork him.

3. This whole CR kabuki disturbs me in that every time this 'we gotta hurry up and fund the govt', all kinds of costly payoffs and debilitating regulations get implemented.

4. Boned.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at September 24, 2013 04:50 PM (sj9LN)

61
News bimbo tweets that some other news whore reports that a Senator said a mean thing about another Senator.

We're being ruled by middle schoolers.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 24, 2013 04:50 PM (TOk1P)

62 Bwahaha Cruz is mentioning Ashton Kutcher. . . say what you will about him, but namedropping celebs and being the first senator ever to read tweets on the senate floor via #standwithrand. . . he gets the importance of the culture and technology. Unlike some senatorial dinosaurs.

Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 04:50 PM (8wqqE)

63 Yep. Cruz is fighting and speaking up for the people who don't have a voice-ignored and dismissed by entrenched Republicans and Democrats who don't care. They are EXEMPT from Obamacare. Speaking about this is worth something.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 24, 2013 04:50 PM (a4Omg)

64 are you telling me my marriage is doomed because i screamed at my wife for eating the last taco????

Posted by: dillhole12 at September 24, 2013 04:51 PM (uURnG)

65
"Rand at least got Holder to concede that he couldn't assisinate an American citizen****."

*on US soil
** without due process
*** without being a present danger
Maybe.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 24, 2013 04:51 PM (t06LC)

66 Chad Pergram ‏@ChadPergram 3m
Sen Rand Paul (R-KY) expected to join Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) on Senate floor. Cruz baled out Paul many times during his filibuster.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 04:51 PM (DmNpO)

67 The R's LET this turn into a clusterfark. WHAT IF...the House sent over the defund CR and said THAT'S IT. Then the discussion would have been about obamacare. Instead we have heard very little about why/how obamacare sux...and there is a ton. We will lose this because NO leadership...they let it go directly into the weeds where rinos love to squabble over the nits...just like on this blog.

Posted by: getonwithit at September 24, 2013 04:51 PM (MbeEN)

68 If I'm reading the tea leaves correctly the shit hits the fan if the government shutdown lasts more than two weeks.

So basically it's a game of chicken with the media refereeing.

Posted by: tasker at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (r2PLg)

69 So we believe NBC news chicks now? Kelly O'Donnell? Really? That's a mighty long post for a "if true" story, Ace.

Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (HjPtV)

70 Ace, I hate democrats and progressives much more than RINOs. Well, hate is too strong. I just really, really, cannot stand their vision for this country and how they treat people they don't agree with. I'd like to offer them bus tickets to Canada.

Posted by: Yip at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (/jHWN)

71 see the sanity-preserving update


Posted by: ace at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (/IWYB)

72 You know what will work, guaranteed? Shutting down the government.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (eoeps)

73 >>>It seems to be an argument that "My Futile Gesture is better than Your Futile Gesture."

No, actually, you're behind the times with the rationalization. Now we're being told (by DrewM and other commenters here) that this was never really about Obamacare at all -- it was REALLY about "the war of the Tea Party vs. the Establishment."

No, seriously. That's their argument. That all this theater, this threat of a government shutdown, the public debacle, all of it -- it was all a false-flag operation designed as a means of conducting the real war, the one certain people never ever, ever, ever want to stop fighting: Tea Party vs. RINO.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (n/+FT)

74 First, who cares if Rand Paul opposed the strategy in private?

Coaches debate each other all the time on proper strategy. Frankly, I think it shows a lot more character that he's not trying to undermine it now.

Second, I think it's important at this time to make some sort of display showing some Republicans vociferously opposing this trainwreck.

Third, this was a good strategy if you wanted a compromise of some kind from the White House. They are now in the position to do ANYTHING to support Obamacare. Up to and including eliminating the IRS.

Posted by: AmishDude at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (T0NGe)

75
Nobody "excommunicated" Rand Paul or Thomas Sowell. They said they disagreed with them about this

There's a lot of projection there. People who thought defunding wasa bad idea weren't arguing in good faith. They have been pretty much calling the other side every kind of euphemism for maniacs that can be thought of.

The people who do get referred to as RINOs are people with shitty track records like Mitch McConnell, John McCain, Marco Rubioand John Boehner.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (TpXEI)

76
In some third world countries, when one faction is opposing another faction, they will cut out the hearts of their enemies and eat them.

We send tweets.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (TOk1P)

77 I'll just note something I said this morning that does largely seem to be coming true.

What I would love to see is to watch Cruz pull a real filibuster like Rand did for 12-13 hours to prevent the funding of Obamacare. Then watch a bunch of little pussies here who thought it was great that Rand did go apeshit about Cruz doing it because its futile and won't actually stop it. Even though Rand's filibuster also was futile and known to be futile from the start as well.

Posted by: Buzzion at September 24, 2013 04:53 PM (N3egu)

78 Rand did what you're supposed to do when planning for a negotiation: He talked it our beforehand. However, once you're sitting across the table from the opponent, the agreement is to stand together.

Rand will stand with Cruz.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 04:53 PM (DmNpO)

79
@45

They still have a monument at the Alamo and at Thermopayle for a reason.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 24, 2013 04:53 PM (t06LC)

80 Poor guy has done Geometry and now moved on to White Castle. He sounds hungry.

Posted by: Boss Moss former editor of the Harvard Law Review at September 24, 2013 04:53 PM (0axsw)

81 Talking about coming around full circle as referenced in a couple of the previous threads.

We giving up. Let it burn.


(Just a small note: It's already burning.)

Posted by: Soona at September 24, 2013 04:54 PM (3sDOE)

82
Heritage, Freedom Works, SenatevConservatives are all for it . I have to think Cruz & Lee know what they're doing .
Don't forget that Rand's father is a kook!
I love that Juan McCain &/ or one of his staff is
so stupid to publicly say McCain fFing hates Cruz. I thought I had his phone number saved. & was going to call his office to tell him I regret voting for him in 2008!

Posted by: CarolT at September 24, 2013 04:54 PM (Eflez)

83
@41 LizLem,
that's a great idea. It worked well for Gustavo Arellano, of "ask a Mexican" fame. It's a dear abby kind thing, people ask goofy shit and he responds. He put several years worth in a book and it sold pretty well.
Ace, time to get rich bro!

Posted by: fastfreefall at September 24, 2013 04:54 PM (awLVJ)

84 64
are you telling me my marriage is doomed because i screamed at my wife for eating the last taco????
=========
Was it your wife's taco?
Or some other woman's taco?

Posted by: RoyalOil at September 24, 2013 04:54 PM (VjL9S)

85 I've ignored all the details of this "fight."

The Obamacare battle was lost long ago. Our representatives did not represent us. They walked away from the fight.

I simply do not care about this bullshit any more. I'm tired of swimming in other people's hidden motives and lies.

Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 04:54 PM (HzhBE)

86 Even though Rand's filibuster also was futile and known to be futile from the start as well.

***

Standing on principle is always a winning move in my eyes.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 04:54 PM (DmNpO)

87 Yes I'm no longer a registered Republican. I'm an Independent. That being said there is no way on Gods green earth that I will ever vote for a Democrat, or waste my vote on some Libertarian who has no chance... I guess that makes me a "Rino" of sorts...

Posted by: hello, it's me also a creep-assed cracka.. at September 24, 2013 04:55 PM (9+ccr)

88

>>>They still have a monument at the Alamo and at Thermopayle for a reason.

BECOZ OF THE LGBT RIGHTS, HATER!!1!

Posted by: LIBTARD at September 24, 2013 04:55 PM (3ZtZW)

89 It comes down to what you saud before - a lack of trust.

I know what I mistrust GOP leadership over - I think they'll use their power to preserve their status by dealing with the Dems.

I honestly don't know what they (the GOPers eho invested so much time pounding Cruz) mistrust about Cruz and Lee. At the very least they should respect that Cruz et al are expressing the American people's dissatisfaction with Ocare.

But they don't care. They just want to insult us hobbits while screaming "trust ys! We know better!"

I'm sick of these employees and would like to fire them.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at September 24, 2013 04:55 PM (5H6zj)

90 A serious question....no, really, its serious.

How exactly does "defund" work.

If you are kicking out the tax incentives....o.k., I'm with you.

If not....then what are you exactly defunding? Because somehow, I suspect Mr. Constitutional Scholar President will just shift money around to fund Obamacare.

Thanks.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 24, 2013 04:55 PM (OWjjx)

91
There is no downside to this.

Cruz makes a name for himself as the lone fighter who stood up to Obama.

There won't be any government shutdown, so that narrative is lost.

Obamacare won't be defunded, so the issue at the midterms will be that Cruz could have won, if only for a few more "R" seats in the Senate.

No one who will make a difference in a presidential election year is paying any attention to any of this, so it's just for the base.

The fight in on the right for control of the GOP will be moved farther into the Cruz/Palin wing than the Rove/McCain wing.

Everything is fine and dandy.

Posted by: jwest at September 24, 2013 04:55 PM (u2a4R)

92 So McConnell is all over a drone strike filibuster.

But stopping zerocare, nah, this is not the hill to die on.

Got it stupid party, you're the best.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 24, 2013 04:55 PM (tVTLU)

93 >>>First, who cares if Rand Paul opposed the strategy in private?



Coaches debate each other all the time on proper strategy. Frankly,
I think it shows a lot more character that he's not trying to undermine
it now.



Second, I think it's important at this time to make some sort of
display showing some Republicans vociferously opposing this trainwreck.


...

eh, yeah, I agree.

and yet we are here arguing about the value of the intangible. we're not arguing that this really would work.



Posted by: ace at September 24, 2013 04:55 PM (/IWYB)

94 Just for starters, most of the time I don't give a fuck what the pundits say, they seem to be wrong a lot, their perception in not the public's perception.

Best scenario, the public, of which a majority are against Barakahnaten's health care plan, see this as a shout against it.

Worst scenario ( most likely ) the MFM spins it as Cruz is a lunatic.

Posted by: The Jackhole at September 24, 2013 04:55 PM (nTgAI)

95 Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (n/+FT)

I think you're missing DrewM's point. This is just a battle in a long war. The base doesn't trust the leadership.

Whether it be Internet taxes, immigration or whatever, the base has been denied time and time again.

If the base hadn't been defied so many times, they (we) might have been very susceptible to the strategy argument.

But we don't trust them and that's what the strategy argument boils down to: Trust us.

Posted by: AmishDude at September 24, 2013 04:56 PM (T0NGe)

96 Why invest an ounce of emotional energy in any of this? It changes nothing. You're better off vacuuming your house instead. At least something will get done that benefits you personally.

Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 04:56 PM (HzhBE)

97 I think this sums up where everyone (except me because I'm above such pettiness) is right now.


http://bit.ly/16oTA40


I love love love that graphic atc. People who are fighting always come up with weird "rules" for why they're pissed.

"I admit, I was a total b*tch to Fran, but she should have come to me to complain, instead of talking about it with her friend (where it was overheard)."

THAT was beyond the pale.

Posted by: bonhomme at September 24, 2013 04:56 PM (yETln)

98 The Paul note is just the press corps trying to drive the meme that Cruz and Lee are wacko-birds that even Paul doesn't agree with.

Watch the media double-down on painting Cruz as a delusional wonk that can't work with anyone in DC..... wait for the letters pouring in from Texans who beg him to please stop his fillibuster.... just like in the movie.

Posted by: Yip at September 24, 2013 04:56 PM (/jHWN)

99 lol, i know this isn't directed at me, but i did feel a twinge of guilt.

yeah i am mad, and at least attention is being made to this issue.

He is openly stating how this is so bad and so bad for our economy, our job outlooks,
But it was so good that all leadership exempted themselves from it.

although i realize few people are watching and listening but those that give a damn, because they recognize our individual rights and fiscal future is slipping away .

he also is making the point Dems did this, connected it to outlook on jobs for young and old.etc.
If one watched cspan this a.m when Leahy was speaking this country is in trouble yes economically but because it isn't Fair. OR it's republicans fault.


Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 04:56 PM (nqBYe)

100 Paving The Road Towards A One-Party State:


That's Today's GOP.


Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 04:56 PM (cqONJ)

101 This epitomizes the problems confronting Republicans. What type of a person takes information from a private meeting like this and blurts it out to the press?

It's like grade-school tactics. What's next- reporting that Rand called him a bad name?

There is zero discipline or leadership worthy of respect. It's a bunch of factions who insist on calling themselves a party. Why? I have no idea they don't even stand principally for the same things.

I don't buy this is an argument over the heart and soul or "tactics" as to how to achieve the parties aims. They don't have any shared goals...other than trying to keep themselves employed.

Guys like Boehner and McConnell don't know how to do anything else. It's pathetic people like them would hang around Washington so long. An honest assessment would conclude that career politician is an oxymoron.

Honestly what kind of an inept, bungling idiot would want to be a career politician. Probably someone who really isn't good at anything and it shows.

Posted by: Marcus at September 24, 2013 04:56 PM (GGCsk)

102 80
Poor guy has done Geometry and now moved on to White Castle. He sounds hungry.Posted by: Boss Moss former editor of the Harvard Law Review at September 24, 2013 04:53 PM (0axsw)

He's putting it in terms any LIV who stumbles on CSPAN could understand. Not a likely scenario, but possible. Love the anecdotes about his dad! I can hear the MSNBC crones factchecking his life story in 3...2...1...

Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 04:57 PM (8wqqE)

103 >>>There is no downside to this.

Cruz makes a name for himself as the lone fighter who stood up to Obama.

There won't be any government shutdown, so that narrative is lost.

Obamacare
won't be defunded, so the issue at the midterms will be that Cruz could
have won, if only for a few more "R" seats in the Senate.

No one
who will make a difference in a presidential election year is paying
any attention to any of this, so it's just for the base.

The fight in on the right for control of the GOP will be moved farther into the Cruz/Palin wing than the Rove/McCain wing.

Everything is fine and dandy.

...

but then what were we fighting about?

just about such-and-such's political positioning?


Posted by: ace at September 24, 2013 04:57 PM (/IWYB)

104
@91

Spot on.
Further, it puts pressure on the republicans to move to the right to look at least as conservative as Cruz and Paul.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 24, 2013 04:57 PM (t06LC)

105 Did you ever stop to think, maybe all of you are the RINOs?

Posted by: GOP at September 24, 2013 04:57 PM (M2qTM)

106 64 are you telling me my marriage is doomed because i screamed at my wife for eating the last taco????
Posted by: dillhole12 at September 24, 2013 04:51 PM (uURnG)


Not if it was a cool ranch Doritos locos taco.

Posted by: Buzzion at September 24, 2013 04:57 PM (N3egu)

107 Worst scenario ( most likely ) the MFM spins it as Cruz is a lunatic.

***

When did they ever stop?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 04:58 PM (DmNpO)

108 >>>This epitomizes the problems confronting Republicans. What type of a
person takes information from a private meeting like this and blurts it
out to the p

any of 20 RINOs who wish to subvert Cruz/Lee/Paul.


Posted by: ace at September 24, 2013 04:58 PM (/IWYB)

109 90 A serious question....no, really, its serious.

How exactly does "defund" work.

If you are kicking out the tax incentives....o.k., I'm with you.

If not....then what are you exactly defunding? Because somehow, I suspect Mr. Constitutional Scholar President will just shift money around to fund Obamacare.

Thanks.
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 24, 2013 04:55 PM (OWjjx)

**********************

Supposedly you can't even defund the Medicaid expansion portion of it because that funding was made mandatory.

Posted by: tasker at September 24, 2013 04:58 PM (r2PLg)

110 And maybe this is a bit of self-flattery, but if the GOP's tactics are so convoluted that I can't understand what they're trying to accomplish by reading an article or two, I just assum they're lying to me as usual.

Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 04:58 PM (HzhBE)

111 Didn't they do that song in American Horror Story?

Cute little girl. What's dad playing? It's pink.

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman at September 24, 2013 04:58 PM (T0Pku)

112 are you telling me my marriage is doomed because i screamed at my wife for eating the last taco????

You know what's really bad. When your kid reminds the parents on their anniversary of a fight you had seven years ago that you had forgotten about and can quote actual lines like "You stole the last taco".

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 24, 2013 04:58 PM (a4Omg)

113
but then what were we fighting about?


Whatever. We never win, anyway.

Posted by: garrett at September 24, 2013 04:59 PM (nKFzF)

114 and i can adore Dr Sowell and disagree with a point or two simultaneously.

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 04:59 PM (nqBYe)

115 let it burn

Posted by: phoenixgirl at work at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (8InM1)

116
45 -

Here's an idea Ace: If you are a Senator or Congressman, how about you make a declarative statement that you oppose Obamacare, and will try to stop it whatever way you can.

Then the rest of us don't have to wonder whether your voting for it before you vote against it stuff is a sign of one or the other. You'll follow whatever tactic you think is going to accomplish the best possible outcome.

Our problem right now is that there really really really are some Republicans who want Obamacare to become the way of the world, but they are playing games with it, so as to avoid being outed as Obamacare lovers.

We have commenters here doing the same thing.

It's not that hard.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (TOk1P)

117 Did you ever stop to think, maybe all of you are the RINOs?

Posted by: GOP


Not since last November, I'm not.

Join the dark side. We have brownies!

Posted by: Brother Cavil, kaiju wrangler at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (naUcP)

118 There's a lot of projection there. People who thought defunding wasa bad idea weren't arguing in good faith. They have been pretty much calling the other side every kind of euphemism for maniacs that can be thought of.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (TpXEI)


Pretty much that's what's been happening, and in the process the name-callers claim they're victims (which is why they are then associated by others with liberals, as this is a common tactic - but it's a human tactic not just a liberal one).

When two other people are fighting and hurling accusations at each other, it can be hard to tell who has the truth of it.

When someone is hurling accusations at me, I pretty much can tell if they're just making shit up or not.

And they're making up a *lot* of shit, particularly about intentions and interpretations. And frankly it's a confession of untrustworthiness. And you know people that lie about you or call you names based on bizarre assumptions to try to get you to do something they want either *really* don't want to have anything to do about you, or they're *catastrophically* bad at dealing with people.

And so here we are, boned as shit, broke, abused, attacked, vilified, surrounded, add your own list in this space.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (qyfb5)

119 Does Cruz have anyone in his corner he can tag?

Posted by: Boss Moss former editor of the Harvard Law Review at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (0axsw)

120
we're not arguing that this really would work.


Well, I kinda wonder if Americans see a shutdown, and learn it doesn't affect them too much, maybe they won't care ifit keepsdragging on.

I suspect the first few times America ran without a budget people were kinda freaked out about it. Now people just yawn.

Or maybe Imperious Leader decides to go forward unilaterally. Who knows what the public's reaction to that would be.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (TpXEI)

121
Whatever. We never win, anyway.

Posted by: garrett at September 24, 2013 04:59 PM (nKFzF)

truther!

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (nqBYe)

122 >>>and yet we are here arguing about the value of the intangible. we're not arguing that this really would work.

So
why are so many people in these comment threads (and over on places
like Hot Air) absolutely convinced that what Cruz is doing can work?
Why do they believe this? Why did Cruz keep saying this in public? Why
is he saying it right now, on the floor of the Senate, in fact?

And
I really would like this one answered: why am I supposed to support and
be all gung-ho in favor of a guy who -- as you yourself have now
granted -- was selling lies to the base and ginning them up with rage,
feeding them false hopes only to inevitably crush them? Why am I
supposed to say "oh man that guy is a fighter!" and applaud this
potentially destructive move?

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (n/+FT)

123 Supposedly you can't even defund the Medicaid expansion portion of it because that funding was made mandatory.

yea....and I am at a lose how you "defund" the individual mandate and the employer mandate (though, it appears, you can, by executive fiat, delay it for however long you wish).

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (OWjjx)

124 I don't recall the meeting where Rand Paul was crowned the decider of conservative /not conservative.

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (m2CN7)

125 So what if this is Cruz making it up as he goes? This damned thing is coming Jan 1 and nobody else had a plan to stop it. Nobody else had any intention of even trying.

Can he succeed? Probably not. We blew much better chances. That is over and done though, no point refighting that. Now we have Churchill's warning about sooner or later fighting when there is no chance of victory, only death or slavery. That is where we are now. So lets fight like there is no tomorrow, because if we lose there ain't. Jan 1 the freebies start and the path to single payer and the end of the Republic is a done deal.

And yes we do fight RINOs harder, probably even hate them more. Because until we deal with the lackof resolve in our own party we ain't got a snowballs chance in hell of defeating the iron lockstep legions of Hell on the other side.

Posted by: John Morris at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (sCRhB)

126 She thought she kept hearing fireworks and couldn't sleep, so we sang to keep her mind preoccupied.

I wonder if it would work with pets?

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (T0Pku)

127 >>>This epitomizes the problems confronting Republicans. What type of a
person takes information from a private meeting like this and blurts it
out to the p

any of 20 RINOs who wish to subvert Cruz/Lee/Paul.


Posted by: ace at September 24, 2013 04:58 PM (/IWYB)


***************

Or from Ted Cruz's camp.

Basically they are fighting for the same turf.

It's a possibility.

Posted by: tasker at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (r2PLg)

128 Speaking of marriage, Ireally hate that my wife thinks sharing things off my plate is romantic. I put theexactamount of food that I wanted on my plate. Get your own fucking plate. I'll even get up and fix one up for you.

Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (HzhBE)

129 Now Ted Needs a Foley Catheter. some Speed and a big Holding Bag to throw at Dingy after the Filibuster.....

Posted by: Sandra Fluke Circumsizing her Clitorous in Solidarity to Muslim Women in an Obscure Tribe at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (PytgW)

130 "We don't like Reid, but we hate the RINOs among us."

They're called heretics, and heretics are for burning; like "It's cold, throw another heretic on the fire."

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Outrage Outlet has the Embarrassing LP's of Your Youth! at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (gmoEG)

131 and yet we are here arguing about the value of the intangible. we're not arguing that this really would work.

Meh. We're beyond the details of specific legislation now.

Hell, Obamacare isn't specific legislation in any meaningful sense.

Which is part of the problem.

I've seen tweets about how people would have supported shutting down the government over forcing Obamacare on Congress.

That's ridiculous. It's too arcane. People don't pay specific attention, even if the media would tell them the truth.

The message: "Me no likey Obamacare."

That's it.

Posted by: AmishDude at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (T0NGe)

132
@103
Being cynical, partly. But it does give us something. It has the effect of giving the base some soul, something to fight for, to rally behind.
I don't think the establishment likes it, and that's why I'm nominally for it. Make them uncomfortable. Make their constituents demand they move further right.

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (t06LC)

133 and yet we are here arguing about the value of the intangible. we're not arguing that this really would work.



Posted by: ace at September 24, 2013 04:55 PM (/IWYB)



Nobody thinks it will work, no matter how many times those words are put in our mouths.


And it doesn't have to work. It just has to be done. At least, if you still want to have a Republican party that stands for anything.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (cqONJ)

134 Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (n/+FT)

Your lies keep piling up.

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (m2CN7)

135 >just about such-and-such's political positioning?<

Yes, precisely.

This is about which faction will take the torch and run with it and who will carry the water.

The only objectives met are not principled, they are political in terms of fostering talking points.

Like people don't know who is responsible for Obamacare.

The whole thing is a waste of time and a distraction.

Posted by: Marcus at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (GGCsk)

136 Ace,

With your "pox on both their houses" attitude in the battle between - as you put it Trucons and RINOs, you are missing the bigger picture and the point.

Whether or not Cruz's plan was stupid or gets anywhere, or the establishment is "vindicated" when Obamacare remains the law of the land and we add to our national debt, the bigger issue that you seem to miss or not care about is this:

Most of the base does not trust the GOP at all anymore. For years we have bitched and moaned about the GOP, sure. But, that is a big difference to waking up and realizing the GOP simply does not like conservatives, has no interest in conservative ideas or goals, and frankly, doesn't care who knows it.

By attacking Cruz and anyone who wants to try and find a way to defund Obamacare, and attack in such a mean spirited way (that they would never dream of using to attack dems or liberals), they show who they hate the most. And it is not leftists - it is conservatives.

Sure, the Cruz plan had no way to really accomplish much of anything, except maybe highlight the issue and show some backbone. But, in reality, the "establishment" plan accomplished what? Complete and utter capitulation without even pretending to care.

Not sure what is worse. Waging a battle we know we will lose but which may shine some light on the issue for the mushy middle while giving the base some satisfaction, or simply saying "we'll never win, just give the dems what they want."

What exactly do we lose when the Cruz plan fails? We end up right where the GOP wanted to be in the first place, which is giving the Dems a clean CR so Obamacare can continue to become fixed as law and the gov't can continue to run up the debt.

To me, no matter what happens, the GOP is the big loser here - based on their reaction to conservatives - not b/c of any tactics, etc. For some time we have seen their disdain for us. But we always hope that if we do more, if we elect more conservatives, eventually that will change.

But it hasn't and it won't. The GOP hates conservatives. Period. End of story. It always has. The establishment hated Reagan. It hates every conservative that runs for office. In every chance they have, even in the deepest red district, they try to get non-conservatives as the candidate. The establishment only fights nasty and hard when it is against conservatives - it never pulls out the long knives to fight liberalism.

That says it all. I, for one, will not volunteer, donate or vote for the GOP again. Everyone can say "but then you'll get Obama" or whatever inane argument you want to make. To which I say - what has the GOP given us? Bush increased the size and scope of gov't and increased the deficits incredibly. Even Reagan didn't really reduce the size or scope of gov't. The vaunted Gingrich contract with America had little lasting effect as gov't continues to grow radically.

What really has the GOP ever done but help the left push its agenda forward. Sure, at times the GOP makes that agenda go slightly slower. But that is not enough. Not nearly enough.

The GOP stands for nothing. It is worth nothing. It deserves nothing from conservatives.

Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (sOx93)

137 This is just how I'm feeling right now. I'm feeling like, "What the hell was all this about?" Apparently nothing, it turns out.

Actually, as with many things, it wasn't "nothing," at first. Once it was clear the Senate Republicans wouldn't hold together, it became about "nothing," but by then Cruz was committed.

But you're right. If a partnership cannot find common ground on something so fundamental, that partnership would be better dissolved than to attempt to continue.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) MFM Delenda Est at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (/PCJa)

138 Worst scenario ( most likely ) the MFM spins it as Cruz is a lunatic. *** When did they ever stop?
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 04:58 PM (DmNpO)

Hope is a thing with feathers....

Posted by: The Jackhole at September 24, 2013 05:02 PM (nTgAI)

139 Because the argument is not about the sweatshirt; it's about the fact that both parties want to split and go their separate ways.

The opening scene from Wedding Crashes comes to mind, minus the frequent flier miles, points or whatever scraps Vaughn tried to scrounge.

Posted by: adams cinéma vérité porn at September 24, 2013 05:02 PM (gQKHE)

140 but then what were we fighting about?

just about such-and-such's political positioning?

****

At the least, he is fighting on principle. The fucking law is destroying America. At best, he opens a few eyes and hearts in the chamber and this CR goes another round.

Sure. It is unlikely that Obamacare will be defunded, but the fight is now, unlike the other 40 times it was quietly attempted, on the front pages. People are talking about it.

People are ready to fight about it.

Voters are finally ready to kick the crap out of the McConnells and McCains, and Grahams.

Graham's action tomorrow may well be the final nail in his coffin and, for me, that is a win in itself.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 05:02 PM (DmNpO)

141 Did you ever stop to think, maybe all of you are the RINOs?

I'm a DINO actually. It allows me to yell at Democrats when they call me from money and may also save me if they're just going by party affiliation when the camps are set up-as long as they don't check my actual voting record. ;^)

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 24, 2013 05:02 PM (a4Omg)

142 After this fight, what conservatives will really listen to jack-squat that McConnell say as Minority Leader? Cruz is eclipsing the Senate leadership and upsetting their club. Moar please!,

... and for a fillerbuster, he sure is saying a lot of pertinent things and doing it in a way that is pointed and easily defended later. At least he is speaking above the press filter via C-span. If only it can leak out to those that haven't been listening the last two hours or so...

Posted by: Yip at September 24, 2013 05:03 PM (/jHWN)

143 Lee is on his side, Boss Moss.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at September 24, 2013 05:03 PM (5H6zj)

144
Uh, guys Obamacare goes into effect in 7 days, at least Cruz is trying to do something even if it's folly.

What are the other chuckle heads in the Senate and House doing?

That would be nothing.

Stand with Cruz!

Posted by: Kreplach at September 24, 2013 05:03 PM (cxNF0)

145 And it doesn't have to work. It just has to be done. At least, if you still want to have a Republican party that stands for anything.

***

this.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 05:03 PM (DmNpO)

146 Re: the embedded video...

What is it about dogs and little children that turn grown men into blithering idiots?*

*The exception being, you kitteh lovers.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at September 24, 2013 05:03 PM (dzKbD)

147
granted -- was selling lies to the base and ginning them up with rage,

feeding them false hopes only to inevitably crush them? Why am I

applaud this

potentially destructive move?

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 05:00 PM (n/+FT)


you mean like the other Reps do during every budget talks?
how they are going to ....? nothing

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:03 PM (nqBYe)

148
SHUT UP!!! There's a firework coming. Okay.

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman at September 24, 2013 05:03 PM (T0Pku)

149 83

@41 LizLem,
that's a great idea. It worked well for Gustavo
Arellano, of "ask a Mexican" fame. It's a dear abby kind thing, people
ask goofy shit and he responds. He put several years worth in a book and
it sold pretty well.
Ace, time to get rich bro!Posted by: fastfreefall at September 24, 2013 04:54 PM (awLVJ)

The only possible pitfall would be that book launches require promotion, and Ace, like the mighty Sasquatch, be camera shy. (Though Ace on Redeye to promote his book, cracking wise with the gang, would make my decade. HE could wear an Ewok mask.) But there are other ways, including getting camera friendly coblogs like Gabe to do the footwork. Plenty of time to prep for an unveiling next year. Think about it Ace!

Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 05:03 PM (8wqqE)

150 Rid GOP of McCain,Rove, McConnell etc & we can have fresh blood & ideas with Cruz, Lee, I'm not sure about Rubio, & others. Out with the old & on with new, Palin top!

Posted by: CarolT at September 24, 2013 05:04 PM (DVPta)

151
"but then what were we fighting about?

just about such-and-such's political positioning?"

I don't know anyone who argued that Obamacare was actually going to be defunded, except maybe a few real die-hards.

This has always been a posturing that drives home the point that democrats own Obamacare and republicans are against it. When the midterms come around, most voters who can be motivated will be taking an ass fucking on their premiums or in some way being pissed off by Obamacare.

If it produces a 2006 style turnout and result it's all worth it.

Posted by: jwest at September 24, 2013 05:04 PM (u2a4R)

152 >any of 20 RINOs who wish to subvert Cruz/Lee/Paul.<

So you undermine your own party? What's the goal? You can't win elections like this, that should be evident by now.

The dearth of effective leadership and discipline is absolutely stunning.

Posted by: Marcus at September 24, 2013 05:04 PM (GGCsk)

153 You can't govern with 1/2 of 1/3 of the government, especially when the other 1/2 doesn't value its own power as a counterweight to The Won.

The best play was to give the people Obamacare, good and hard. DON'T take away the individual mandate (Republicans wouldn't have gotten credit for that any way from the press or the LIVs). CALL the President on his bullshit winging it and enforce the law. Then step back and watch the chaos ensue.

About 10 million people in the country with no insurance might, MIGHT like it (the 50 million number is fantasy), but I guarantee you that the majority of producers who are seeing their rates skyrocket, along with doctors who are seeing their payments plummet (it's already happening--I see it on my EOBs) are going to scream bloody murder to their Congresscritters.

The GOP is proving once again that they are the Party of Stupid. Don't interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.

This is just a play by various Republicans and RINOs in Congress to try to be able to claim to their conservative constituents, "Well, we tried."

Posted by: Hurricane LaFawnduh at September 24, 2013 05:04 PM (pginn)

154
Ace:

****Well, this Rand Paul thing, if true, sort of pricks the balloon of
the easy Narratives where the world gets divided neatly into Black Hats
and White Hats.****
No, not really, because notice that Rand, if he opposed it, did so *privately* rather than telling everyone what a horrible person Ted Cruz is. He disagreed with a point of strategy apparently, but he's not outraged at Cruz like the establishment types are, and that's because he's basically on board with fighting Obamacare, and with Cruz' messaging, even if that fight can't be won right now.

The fact is, there was no possible plan that could've likely worked to defeat Obamacare at this point. What matters is that conservatives like Cruz will now be on record as fighting it - really fighting it at personal risk rather than just talking about fighting it someday - in a year from now as everyone is suffering from this miserable law. That will make all the difference between whether the base is fired up or completely demoralized.

The RINOs aren't mad at Cruz because of a minor issue of strategy, or because he tried to fight Obamacare with one strategy and they wanted to try another. They're mad because he's actually fighting, and they didn't actually want to fight at all.
If they had some other strategy for fighting, they could have taken the initiative to push it themselves, rather than leaving all the initiative to Cruz and then bitching about how he was somehow diminishing their "negotiating power." Or, if they weren't willing to do that, they could've helped Cruz with his strategizing rather than backbiting and badmouthing him for months.
But they didn't do that because they didn't really want to, and they aren't really happy about the base being fired up because they realize that a fired up base is as likely to punish them as the Democrats.

Posted by: The Deuce at September 24, 2013 05:04 PM (oDCMR)

155 I knew things were bad when my ex stabbed me and complained about my wasting gas driving to the ER.

Posted by: Moron with Binders Full of Snuggies at September 24, 2013 05:05 PM (Ks4nX)

156
Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (HzhBE)

Had a house guest w/ agirlfriend who jumped in on his soup!
His fucking soup.

I don't know why that's worse. But it is.
There's a definite hierarchy, there.
Desserts are the least offensive.Bowls of warm liquid are the most offensive.

Posted by: garrett at September 24, 2013 05:05 PM (nKFzF)

157 The only bright side in all of this is that Obamacare will be the albatross that hangs the dems for some time I do believe. Even most LIV's know that Reps don't like this POS. So it's their baby. Own it fuckers.

Posted by: Minnfidel at September 24, 2013 05:05 PM (sUMBr)

158
CNN is carrying the biggest bullshit-fest I've ever seen. Hillary C just introduced Bill C and Obama.

The two Liars in Chief are 'discussing' Obamacare at the Clinton Global Initiative.

Tune in and watch them speak Dumbese to their Dumb audience.

Posted by: soothsayer at September 24, 2013 05:05 PM (kagAm)

159
"Out with the old on with new, Palin top!"

THIS 11ty!!! Reverse Cowgirl if possible!

Posted by: Jollyroger at September 24, 2013 05:05 PM (t06LC)

160 Cruz is merely auditioning for the 2016 race. When all is said and done Obamacare is funded and implemented and everyone will hate it. Both the TEAparty and Rinos will kill it. Remember that funny named black guy who's biggest achievement was giving a speech at the Dem Nominating Convention? Does anyone remember what he said? Hey, he's President now. So my guess is Cruz is auditioning. He understands the imperative of stamping his persona on a thing. I'm okay with this because I can't see myself voting for another squish, which means Christy. I am tired of sucking up to the NE for relevance. Pick a real candidate and attack.

Posted by: Chaos, it the other dark meat at September 24, 2013 05:06 PM (oDCMR)

161 What are the other chuckle heads in the Senate and House doing?

Well, for the record, the House has passed, at last count 40 different bills reversing, repealing and what ever other r word you want to use Obamacare.

All 40 have died in the Senate.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 24, 2013 05:06 PM (OWjjx)

162 >>>The RINOs aren't mad at Cruz because of a minor issue of strategy,
or because he tried to fight Obamacare with one strategy and they wanted
to try another. They're mad because he's actually fighting, and they
didn't actually want to fight at all.


Thanks for reading my mind and telling me what I'm thinking. It's really helpful because this actually comes as a revelation to me.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 05:06 PM (n/+FT)

163 This whole thing *could* have been about Obamacare, instead certain House republicans got all pissy for no fucking reason at Cruz and turned it all into this sorry mess that it became.



Stupid Party.

Posted by: KG at September 24, 2013 05:07 PM (p7BzH)

164 The only objectives met are not principled, they are political in terms of fostering talking points.

Like people don't know who is responsible for Obamacare.


Were I to rely solely on the comments here, I'd believe that Republicans (The GOP Establishment) is responsible for Obamacare.

Thankfully, I'm not a delusional reactionary.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 05:07 PM (SY2Kh)

165 You're going to believe anything coming out of the DNC network? Rand Paul is a straight up guy. If he opposes Cruz he'd explain it in a very nice non condemning way. And cruz would answer.

Posted by: miriam at September 24, 2013 05:07 PM (Nx76m)

166 "So you undermine your own party? What's the goal? You can't win elections like this, that should be evident by now."

In the old days, people used to say "the country above party". Obamacare is destroying the liberties of the people. I choose the Constitution of the United States of America.

Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 05:08 PM (HjPtV)

167 Check the major networks. This is our media- remember.

They are not covering this as a fight against Obamacare. They don't even mention that.

They've made it about a crazy Republican whose own party members are willing to stab in the back. And how the fearless Democrats and their god-king are fearlessly standing up to him.

That accomplishes what exactly? Getting a bunch of acolytes to clap?

It doesn't even rate a golf clap in my book.

Posted by: Marcus at September 24, 2013 05:08 PM (GGCsk)

168 The two Liars in Chief are 'discussing' Obamacare at the Clinton Global Initiative.



Tune in and watch them speak Dumbese to their Dumb audience.



Posted by: soothsayer at September 24, 2013 05:05 PM (kagAm)

Obamacare ;It's so wonderful they don't want to be a part of it!

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:08 PM (nqBYe)

169
145 -

Yep. Simple and straightforward. Be the Party that stands up for something, or don't.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 24, 2013 05:08 PM (TOk1P)

170 Or maybe Imperious Leader decides to go forward unilaterally.

I think we can expect that regardless of what happens in the Senate.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™, BFD, ZOMG, WTF, BBQ, QED at September 24, 2013 05:08 PM (/kI1Q)

171 >>>Were I to rely solely on the comments here, I'd believe that Republicans (The GOP Establishment) is responsible for Obamacare.

Thankfully, I'm not a delusional reactionary.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 05:07 PM (SY2Kh)No dude the GOP hates conservatives and wants Obamacare, that's why they fought tooth-and-nail against it and only lost because of some bullshit budget reconciliation rule.

Posted by: Paul at September 24, 2013 05:08 PM (JM48I)

172 Now Daddy didn't like trouble, but if it came along
Everyone that knew him knew which side that he'd be on
He never was a hero, or this county's shinin' light
But you could always find him standing up
For what he thought was right

He'd say you've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything
You've got to be your own man not a puppet on a string
Never compromise what's right and uphold your family name
You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything

Now we might have been better off or owned a bigger house
If Daddy had done more givin' in or a little more backing down
But we always had plenty just living his advice
Whatever you do today you'll have to sleep with tonight

He'd say you've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything
You've got to be your own man not a puppet on a string
Never compromise what's right and uphold your family name
You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything

Now I know that things are different than they were in Daddy's days
But I still believe what makes a man really hasn't changed

You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything
You've got to be your own man not a puppet on a string
Never compromise what's right and uphold your family name
You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything

You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything


AAron Tippen

Posted by: phoenixgirl at work at September 24, 2013 05:09 PM (8InM1)

173 No one wants to weigh in on sharing a plate? Listen, this is an important issue. I know exactly how much i want to eat. I do NOT know how much my wife wants to eat.

This creates problems.

I can't be responsible for both parties.

Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:09 PM (HzhBE)

174 This reminds me again that we seem to want to fight other
conservative-leaning people more than we want to fight Democrats. We
don't like Reid, but we hate the RINOs among us. [i/]

Whatever. But there sure seems to be a shitload of RINOs hating anyone who doesn't "understand" (love the status quo) and a shitload of name calling and backstabbing originating from the so-called "reasonable adults here"

If you don't like pitches thrown at your head, it's a good idea not to stick it in your opponent's ear first.

Conservatives are fighting a two-front battle here. They expect the Dems to fight dirty, but it's outright treacherous from the McCain Wing of the GOP

Posted by: kbdabear at September 24, 2013 05:09 PM (/9IC1)

175 I mean you might think they'd have just voted for it in the first place, but that was just a RINO trick, serious you guys.

Posted by: Paul at September 24, 2013 05:09 PM (JM48I)

176 >>>Were I to rely solely on the comments here, I'd believe that Republicans (The GOP Establishment) is responsible for Obamacare.

I love being told (by one commenter in particular) that I actually secretly LOVE Obamacare, and want it to go into effect, but I'm just lying about it cannily. Presumably the way I've been lying about my dead-red conservative Republicanism here for nearly a decade. We're regular Cylon sleeper agents, we're so good at hiding the truth.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 05:09 PM (n/+FT)

177 Speaking of the N.E. on that map of the states that's been circulating which shows the impact of Ocare on insurance rates, the only places where it went down were in the N.E., including NJ iirc.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at September 24, 2013 05:10 PM (5H6zj)

178 whew, nevermind.
fkitall

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:10 PM (nqBYe)

179 Speaking of marriage, Ireally hate that my wife thinks sharing things off my plate is romantic. I put theexactamount of food that I wanted on my plate. Get your own fucking plate. I'll even get up and fix one up for you.


Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (HzhBE)[/I


------------------.

Preach on, Brother Warden.

I hate that shit. "Oh, I'm not really hungry. I'll just have some of yours. "


Yeah? How'd you like to be dead?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:10 PM (cqONJ)

180
The place to stop funding of Obamacare is only in the House. However, a show of support from fellow Repubs sure the hell would help with negotiations if they were actually serious about shutting down the govt.

But McCain et al aren't, they love big govt and secretly obamacare, as long as they are not a part of it.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at September 24, 2013 05:10 PM (sj9LN)

181 The Rino has spoken.

Posted by: Acehole at September 24, 2013 05:10 PM (P34JA)

182
@161

That's nice but what have they done, really.

The only way to defeat Obamacare is to force the Dems and the President to shut down the government.

You do that bypassing a budget and doing away with the CR's and stripping out Obamacare and let the chips fall where they may.
Once the first check goes out to beneficiaries the program is here to say or put another way - THERE IS NO TOMORROW, FIGHT IT, FIGHT IT WITH EVERYTHING WE'VE GOT.

Posted by: Kreplach at September 24, 2013 05:10 PM (Eyozp)

183 Thanks for reading my mind and telling me what I'm thinking. It's really helpful because this actually comes as a revelation to me.
Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 05:06 PM (n/+FT

You really are clueless. You have posted at least 50 comments on how supporters of Cruz have been thinking and how they have been duped. You don't evenknow what you're thinking if I use the many walkbacks and apologies you have had to give as evidence.

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:11 PM (m2CN7)

184 Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:09 PM (HzhBE)

Look, she's no "Romantic." That's just a ruse.

She's hungry.

Posted by: Hurricane LaFawnduh at September 24, 2013 05:11 PM (pginn)

185 >>>>There's a definite hierarchy, there. Desserts are the least offensive.Bowls of warm liquid are the most offensive.

Yeah. You can have a sip of my beer. No problem. But there are limits that one should observe.

Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:11 PM (HzhBE)

186 Now are we really supposed to trust NBC on this, if we didn't have spellcheckers - they wouldn't trust them to spell his name right

Posted by: Jean at September 24, 2013 05:12 PM (CMlD4)

187 There's a lot of projection there. People who thought defunding wasa
bad idea weren't arguing in good faith. They have been pretty much
calling the other side every kind of euphemism for maniacs that can be
thought of.



Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 24, 2013 04:52 PM (TpXEI)


Plus JeffB has been lying his ass off about Cruz in every single thread, and he won't stop. That man has no shame.

Posted by: KG at September 24, 2013 05:12 PM (p7BzH)

188 Trust? Never trust a politician. But I can and will encourage them when they OPENLY fight against an issue that the majority of the populace finds reprehensible.

Secret, procedural deals are done by thieves and dictators who want the darkness to shield them from being seen what they really are.

Go Cruz go!

Posted by: Soona at September 24, 2013 05:12 PM (3sDOE)

189
Speaking of marriage, Ireally hate that my wife thinks sharing things off my plate is romantic. I put theexactamount of food that I wanted on my plate. Get your own fucking plate. I'll even get up and fix one up for you.


Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (HzhBE)[/I
_______
Only time I think I'd mind my other half eating off my plate is if her grill was fucked up and rotten. For some reason, that just seems gross. Nice teeth? no problem. Jagged, piranha mouth, oxidized grill? Oh fuck no!

Posted by: fastfreefall at September 24, 2013 05:12 PM (awLVJ)

190
176 -

You're a troll is what you are. Whatever else you are, only you and your shrink know.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 24, 2013 05:12 PM (TOk1P)

191 So far, no one has had success at getting rid of ZeroCare. Hell, the clowns in officeat the timehad zero success in preventing it's enactment.

If McConnell would jump into the arena (see: Roosevelt, T) with both feet, I'd listen (given his parliamentary skill, hecould actuallybe helpful). If Paul has an opinion on the subject I might listen (but I might not, since he's just a "vote" we already have). Cornyn is a bullshitter who can't find his ass with either hand and written instructions. McVain is...well...he's not high on my list, lets just say.So I don't consider the sideline Senators opinionson Cruz' tactics as necessarily worth listening to, honestly.

These guys are already losers on the subject, while Cruz is in there fighting with everything he's got. I support Ted.

Posted by: MTF at September 24, 2013 05:12 PM (B5y+v)

192 Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 24, 2013 05:02 PM (a4Omg)

Shit.... am I a LINO then??? Libertarian in Name Only???

Because I don't like Ron Paul.... am not a total Isolationist (but think we should not be quite as involved everywhere as we are)... don't want all drugs legalized... believe in Strong borders... and American Rights for AMERICANs...

crap..... I am a LINO.... sigh...

Posted by: Romeo13 at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (lZBBB)

193
Napoleon said attack and see what happens. Think Cruz understands this advice.

Posted by: Chaos, it the other dark meat at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (oDCMR)

194 Standing on principle is always a winning move in my eyes.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 04:54 PM (DmNpO)


And some people think you're a fool, without ever asking themselves *what they win* if they win by sacrificing principle.

And people wonder why we just keep sliding further and further into corrupt and totalitarian government, pretty much everywhere.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (qyfb5)

195 I knew things were bad when I asked my ex why she switched the labels on the coffee and rat poison and she accused me of being a control freak.

Posted by: Moron with Binders Full of Snuggies at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (Ks4nX)

196 Make her a sammich, Warden. ;-)

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (5H6zj)

197
"SHUT UP!!! There's a firework coming. Okay."

Jesse, when I caught you fooling around in that other thread I warned you. Now, I'm just gonna have to get your attention.

Now, right now I'm driving down the Interstate in my old Caddy but when I get to ABQ in a few daysI'm gonna M-60 your ass GOOD AND HARD!

Posted by: Walt at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (LA7Cm)

198 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:10 PM (cqONJ)

Mrs. Mallamutt is appearantly incapable of consuming an entire can of soda. So its always "wanna split a Diet Coke?" My favorite was when I came in from a full day of yard work done in a traditional St. Louis summer day (heat - 95 degrees, humidity - 95 percent) and, after I grab a cold Diet Coke out of the fridge, she looks at me and says "wanna split"

Why yes, Princess, cause after 6 hours of mowing, weeding, raking, bagging, trimming and all the other work that goes into maintaining the lawn the in the pristine condition you expect, 6 ozs of cold soda is exactly what I want....not 7, certainly not 12, but 6.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (OWjjx)

199 Politics is about persuading people over time, not getting everything you want all in one big bunch. That's just life. Sometimes all you can get is a little face time to share your philosophy. Only a true idiot would turn that down in favor of mute acquiescence.

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (ZshNr)

200 Were I to rely solely on the comments here, I'd believe that Republicans (The GOP Establishment) is responsible for Obamacare.Thankfully, I'm not a delusional reactionary.Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 05:07 PM (SY2Kh)

For instance. Please point out these comments.

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:14 PM (m2CN7)

201 192 Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 24, 2013 05:02 PM (a4Omg)

Shit.... am I a LINO then??? Libertarian in Name Only???

Because I don't like Ron Paul.... am not a total Isolationist (but think we should not be quite as involved everywhere as we are)... don't want all drugs legalized... believe in Strong borders... and American Rights for AMERICANs...

crap..... I am a LINO.... sigh...
Posted by: Romeo13 at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (lZBBB)

******************

Really the Tea Party should take over the Libertarian apparatus.

I think the Libertarians are at least on every state ballot by now. IIRC

Posted by: tasker at September 24, 2013 05:14 PM (r2PLg)

202 Napoleon said attack and see what happens. Think Cruz understands this advice. Posted by: Chaos, it the other dark meat at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (oDCMR)And then Cruz and the Banzai Charge Brigade can also wind up in exile on a deserted island.

Posted by: Paul at September 24, 2013 05:14 PM (JM48I)

203 >>>You really are clueless. You have posted at least 50 comments on how
supporters of Cruz have been thinking and how they have been duped. You
don't evenknow what you're thinking if I use the many walkbacks and
apologies you have had to give as evidence.


Obviously I'm referring to two different sets of Cruz supporters when I talk about the ones who think defunding can actually work and the ones who USED to hold that line but now say "oh it's really about The War Against RINOs."

And I walk things back and apologize when I'm wrong because I try to have some fucking intellectual integrity and don't consider it a fatal attack on my sense of self to occasionally admit to Being Wrong On The Internet. You should try that sometime, it's a healthy attitude.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 05:14 PM (n/+FT)

204
173 -

My wife used to do that. Now she's dead.

Does one have to do with the other? I'm not saying.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 24, 2013 05:14 PM (TOk1P)

205 Speaking of Imperial Lord Obama....I lol'd.

White House Celebrates Bisexual Visibility Day with an Official Closed-Door Event
http://is.gd/w47skv

Posted by: HeatherRadish™, BFD, ZOMG, WTF, BBQ, QED at September 24, 2013 05:15 PM (/kI1Q)

206 And it doesn't have to work. It just has to be done. At least, if you still want to have a Republican party that stands for anything.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (cqONJ)


That ship has sailed, hit an iceberg and is sitting at the bottom of the Atlantic.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at September 24, 2013 05:15 PM (yh0zB)

207 Is it too late to say we should burn all the things?

Posted by: CAC at September 24, 2013 05:15 PM (p+uIO)

208 I've ignored all the details of this "fight."

The Obamacare battle was lost long ago. Our representatives did not represent us. They walked away from the fight.

I simply do not care about this bullshit any more. I'm tired of swimming in other people's hidden motives and lies.Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 04:54 PM_______________________________________They didn't walk away, they were outnumbered and lost because of "math" - a science the "RINO hunters" seem to frequently forget about. I was actually pleasantly surprised (more likeshocked) that the likes of McCain, Lugar and Snowe all stuck with the conservatives in 2009, but when you are outnumbered 60-40 there ain't much you can do.

Posted by: buzz at September 24, 2013 05:15 PM (i27M5)

209 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:10 PM (cqONJ)


LOL.... almost lost a girlfriend one time when she said that...

because I called the waitress over and ordered another order of what I was having...

Posted by: Romeo13 at September 24, 2013 05:16 PM (lZBBB)

210 What Lincolntf said @199.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at September 24, 2013 05:16 PM (5H6zj)

211 Rand Paul tweeted for questions for Cruz.

Posted by: Madamex at September 24, 2013 05:16 PM (islXR)

212 I swear Cruz is calling Obama "Madam President." Did I miss something? I know he can't be, he's get crucified for it, but would be awesome.

Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 05:16 PM (8wqqE)

213
202 Napoleon said attack and see what happens. Think Cruz understands this advice. Posted by: Chaos, it the other dark meat at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (oDCMR)And then Cruz and the Banzai Charge Brigade can also wind up in exile on a deserted island.

Maybe, are become the only memorable Republican seen fighting against it. What's that worth come 2016?

Posted by: Chaos, it the other dark meat at September 24, 2013 05:16 PM (oDCMR)

214 Mrs. Mallamutt is appearantly incapable of consuming an entire can of soda. So its always "wanna split a Diet Coke?" My favorite was when I came in from a full day of yard work done in a traditional St. Louis summer day (heat - 95 degrees, humidity - 95 percent) and, after I grab a cold Diet Coke out of the fridge, she looks at me and says "wanna split"

Why yes, Princess, cause after 6 hours of mowing, weeding, raking, bagging, trimming and all the other work that goes into maintaining the lawn the in the pristine condition you expect, 6 ozs of cold soda is exactly what I want....not 7, certainly not 12, but 6.

***

My takeaway from this:

How dang big is your yard?!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 05:16 PM (DmNpO)

215 CAC

i'm not sure why things haven't already burned....alas....there are no hilss

Posted by: phoenixgirl at work at September 24, 2013 05:16 PM (8InM1)

216 Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (OWjjx)

ROTFL. Well, "No" Or "No, please get your own soda" is always a good answer, Safer too.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at September 24, 2013 05:16 PM (a4Omg)

217 207 Is it too late to say we should burn all the things?
Posted by: CAC at September 24, 2013 05:15 PM (p+uIO)

****************

Ya, I think Angela Davis beat you to that a long time ago--or those Prairie Fire Hippies...

Posted by: tasker at September 24, 2013 05:17 PM (r2PLg)

218 For instance. Please point out these comments.

Proving bold statements is haaard. I'm just going to handwavey answer you.

-Hollowpoint

Posted by: bonhomme at September 24, 2013 05:17 PM (yETln)

219 I guess I'm just looking at it this way...

I'm about to get ass fucked by my government. I'm not the kind that takes kindly to getting ass fucked and if I had an opportunity to fight my ass fucking off by giving reasons as to why this ass fucking is complete bullshit I'd do everything I could. Even if that ass fucking is going to happen one way or another! I don't care if other people in this country could give a rip about the ass fucking that I'm about to take, but I sure appreciate those that have the same feelings about being ass fucked that have a voice in DC speaking up against said ass fucking.

What really pisses me off is that the party that supposedly has my best interests at heart are the ones lubing and spreading my ass cheeks for the fucking while telling me not to worry and just take it because when it comes down to it its better for them if I just keep my mouth shut. Of course what they keep trying to get me to ignore is that they aren't getting ass fucked at all because they made sure as part of the deal that they are a part of the group that are doing the ass fucking as well.

Basically, I'm being Jodi Fostered in the Accused on a pinball machine by the main fuckers (Democrats), the peer pressured go along fuckers (GOP), and anyone else that has gotten a waiver in this country (take your pick). The fact that Ted Cruz is sitting there saying this is bullshit is the only solace I get to take out of the whole thing.

Sorry for the rant but I'm fucking pissed. The idea of America has been completely betrayed by pretty much all of Washington...

LiB

Posted by: H Badger at September 24, 2013 05:17 PM (n/0Nw)

220 I never lie. Or deliberately twist others' words. Or bea disingenuous, arroganttwat.

Posted by: Beff J. at September 24, 2013 05:17 PM (ggRof)

221 i don't share drinks if someone wants a swig of what i'm drinking....i'll take my last sip and i'm done it's theirs.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at work at September 24, 2013 05:18 PM (8InM1)

222 212 I swear Cruz is calling Obama "Madam President." Did I miss something? I know he can't be, he's get crucified for it, but would be awesome.
Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 05:16 PM (8wqqE)


****************

You usually address the person sitting in the chair at the moment in the Senate.

So that "honor" usually goes to the newbies of the Senate majority party.

Posted by: tasker at September 24, 2013 05:18 PM (r2PLg)

223 You're going to believe anything coming out of the DNC network? Rand
Paul is a straight up guy. If he opposes Cruz he'd explain it in a very
nice non condemning way. And cruz would answer.


No, he's not a "straight up guy". He's a politician.

Recall the amnesty debate- he spend most of it being very evasive regarding his views and how he'd vote.

He did end up voting against it, but not because he was opposed to amnesty. He voted against it because he believed Congress (not DHS) should've been the ones to decide if the border was secure.

And that's not the only time he's played Split The Baby, either.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 05:18 PM (SY2Kh)

224 Senator Rand Paul ‏@SenRandPaul 21s
I might try to sneak him some candy. #MakeDCListen @SenTedCruz

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 05:18 PM (DmNpO)

225 Steer Earth into the Sun. It's the only way to be sure.

Posted by: adams climate solutions porn at September 24, 2013 05:19 PM (gQKHE)

226 Senator Rand Paul ‏@SenRandPaul 2m
Heading down to ask @SenTedCruz some important questions soon. #MakeDCListen

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 05:19 PM (DmNpO)

227
I support anyone who can make Obama and the dems look bad.

Who knows ? word might get out .

Posted by: seamrog at September 24, 2013 05:19 PM (rgFET)

228 The Hill says Paul is going to join Cruz, if i have to choose who to believe, NBC or pretty much anybody else, i'll have to go with pretty much anybody else - http://tinyurl.com/mrmfhju

Posted by: booger at September 24, 2013 05:19 PM (xRDdL)

229 Senator Rand Paul ‏@SenRandPaul 21s
I might try to sneak him some candy. #MakeDCListen @SenTedCruz

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 05:18 PM (DmNpO)

And by "candy" I mean Meth.

Posted by: @SenRandPaul at September 24, 2013 05:20 PM (UypUQ)

230 Madame SCoaMF, I rise in opposition to .....

Posted by: Boss Moss former editor of the Harvard Law Review at September 24, 2013 05:20 PM (0axsw)

231
No one wants to weigh in on sharing a plate?
------ ----- ----- ------ ------
.......But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Posted by: Mo's Invisible Friend at September 24, 2013 05:21 PM (sOtz/)

232 i don't share drinks if someone wants a swig of what i'm drinking....i'll take my last sip and i'm done it's theirs.....

After you have the first kid the "oh, hell, no, I don't want your germs" response is gonna make your evenings rather....er............uneventful.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 24, 2013 05:21 PM (OWjjx)

233 And by "candy" I mean Meth.
Posted by: @SenRandPaul at September 24, 2013 05:20 PM (UypUQ)


Make sure it's the blue stuff!

Posted by: Heisenberg at September 24, 2013 05:21 PM (ggRof)

234
223 -

Funny thing is, if you spend all your time complaining aboutwhat somebody is doing, people get the impression you want them to stop doing it.

Cruz is trying to stop Obamacare. Why do you want Cruz to stop trying to stop Obamacare, Hollowpoint?

Posted by: BurtTC at September 24, 2013 05:21 PM (TOk1P)

235
Two sips out of a bottle of water. That's my favorite.
It's not like you have to waltz out to the back 40 and carry a bucket of water back to the house...
only want two sips of water? Drink it out the fucking faucet like normal human.

Posted by: garrett at September 24, 2013 05:21 PM (nKFzF)

236 >>>They didn't walk away, they were outnumbered and lost because of "math" - a science the "RINO hunters" seem to frequently forget about


Bitch McConnell coulda kept those fucks over Christmas break and made 'em pass Obamacare on Christmas Eve, but he said fuck it and went home for some egg nog.

They didn't fight even a losing fight. They didn't fight at all.

Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:21 PM (HzhBE)

237 Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (sOx93)

This! That!...and all the rest!!

Well said

Posted by: Albie Damned at September 24, 2013 05:21 PM (Yhu4q)

238 That ship has sailed, hit an iceberg and is sitting at the bottom of the Atlantic.


Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at September 24, 2013 05:15 PM (yh0zB)

--------------------

If you're wrong, it's only because your timing is a bit off.

That's definitely the assumption I've made in planning my future.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:22 PM (pqBkB)

239 189

Speaking of marriage, Ireally hate that my wife thinks sharing
things off my plate is romantic. I put theexactamount of food that I
wanted on my plate. Get your own fucking plate. I'll even get up and fix
one up for you.
Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:01 PM (HzhBE)

Can't you just make a little extra or put a little more on your plate, knowing she'll swipe some? Anticipate it? I do that at my house, works every time.


Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 05:22 PM (8wqqE)

240
How about when they eat with their right hand!
Am I right?

Posted by: Goat Fucker at September 24, 2013 05:23 PM (nKFzF)

241 I've seen next to nothing in terms of effective outreach to low-information voters, which is the only fight that matters.

Yes, everybody knows Republicans oppose ObamaCare. But why do they oppose it? Because they're greedy? Because they hate poor people? Because they've been bought off by Big Pharma or whatever? Maybe Jon Stewart can spell it out for us.

The only thing the Republicans have going for them is the impressive awfulness of ObamaCare itself. If the public wises up, it will be no thanks to the GOP.

Posted by: sandy burger at September 24, 2013 05:23 PM (4dy3y)

242 Sorry for the rant but I'm fucking pissed. The idea of America has been completely betrayed by pretty much all of Washington...

Posted by: H Badger at September 24, 2013 05:17 PM (n/0Nw)


When a "representative" goes to DC or the STate house, they don't go there to represent you, they go there to represent the government. They work for the government, they get their paychecks from the government.

You aren't the boss, you aren't even the employee, you're the product, and their job is to get the product delivered the way the boss wants it done.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile at September 24, 2013 05:23 PM (qyfb5)

243 120
we're not arguing that this really would work.


Well, I kinda wonder if Americans see a shutdown, and learn it doesn't affect them too much, maybe they won't care ifit keepsdragging on.

I suspect the first few times America ran without a budget people were kinda freaked out about it. Now people just yawn.

Or maybe Imperious Leader decides to go forward unilaterally. Who knows what the public's reaction to that would be.




----------_
this is the problem. I doubt if shuttingnthe govt down would be noticed by many people, therefore, all effort would be made by the govt to shut down all of the most egregious and necessary parts. In other words, all Obama vacations and golf outings would continue, all Obama parties would continue, however, meals on wheels and military pay would stop.

Posted by: Chilling the most at September 24, 2013 05:23 PM (Rn9xc)

244 I don't often watch Glen Beck but when I do, he shows a picture of an al kai duh rebel leader in an American aid tent and says "America this is the result of your foreign policy"

Posted by: the most interesting at September 24, 2013 05:23 PM (Nx76m)

Posted by: tasker at September 24, 2013 05:24 PM (r2PLg)

246 Barrel

Posted by: KG at September 24, 2013 05:24 PM (p7BzH)

247 The MSM and the Dems desperately want this to be all about the GOP and GOP infighting. Who wants to mention Lois Lerner and the IRS (and the IRS is the enforcement arm for Ocare, btw)? And not a peep mentioning that the GOP's CR funds everything EXCEPT ObamaCare.

The Senate Dems know that Ocare is poison and the Ruling Party GOPniks don't want to be the sacrificial lambs for a successful cloture vote.

Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 05:24 PM (HjPtV)

248 cruz is now reading constiuents letters of issues they have faced. etc.

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:24 PM (nqBYe)

249
And I walk things back and apologize when I'm wrong because I try to have some fucking intellectual integrity and don't consider it a fatal attack on my sense of self to occasionally admit to Being Wrong On The Internet. You should try that sometime, it's a healthy attitude.
------ ------- ----- --------- ----- -------
This "wrong," what is it?

Posted by: JEF at September 24, 2013 05:25 PM (sOtz/)

250 244 I don't often watch Glen Beck but when I do, he shows a picture of an al kai duh rebel leader in an American aid tent and says "America this is the result of your foreign policy"
Posted by: the most interesting at September 24, 2013 05:23 PM (Nx76m)

amazingly you seem to always know what's going on with beck even though you rarely watch him....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at work at September 24, 2013 05:25 PM (8InM1)

251 And in the world of double standards it has come to this:

Rand Paul's (admittedly futile filibuster on drones) BRILLIANT, WONDERFUL POLITICS, Masterful display, way to go Rand...

Ted Cruz's (admittedly likely futile filibuster on zerocare) FUCKING SHAM, EGO TRIP, IT'S ALL ABOUT CRUZ.

Why does such a double standard exist for Cruz. All he's doing is trying to do what the GOP got ELECTED TO FUCKING DO!

It's beyond exasperation. You can't win the fight unless you get in the fucking ring. And jerk off votes that don't do shit WON'T WIN ANYTHING. won't stop anything. Don't fucking matter.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 24, 2013 05:25 PM (tVTLU)

252 Reading letters like this is a fantastic way to keep the filibuster going and going.

Posted by: @SenSeriousCat at September 24, 2013 05:25 PM (UypUQ)

253 "NBC: Rand Paul Privately Objected to Ted Cruz's Filibuster-the-Defund Tactic"

Yes, and the reason he did so privately instead of publicly was probably because doing so publicly would not have been all that constructive or helpful.



And the reason NBC loves to broad cast this meme is because doing so at this point is not all that constructive or helpful (granted, not from NBC's point of view).

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:25 PM (j+cSS)

254
241 -

The flaw in your argument is that if Obamacare is so awful, and it's really so easy to make the case to the LIVs, and the R Party isn't making that case, then maybe they aren't so opposed to it after all.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 24, 2013 05:25 PM (TOk1P)

255 Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (OWjjx)



Diet Coke? Srsly? Who drinks that shit? Coke Zero FTW!

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at September 24, 2013 05:26 PM (yh0zB)

256 Reading is Fundamentalist!

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 24, 2013 05:26 PM (ZshNr)

257
So do I go see this movie in the theaters or wait for the DVD?



Posted by: IllTemperedCur at September 24, 2013 05:26 PM (TIIx5)

258 The GOP cannot be trusted and the base is simply giving up.

Posted by: Albie Damned at September 24, 2013 05:26 PM (Yhu4q)

259 False argument. Those who followed Cruz's strategy aren't True Cons and those who didn't aren't RINOs. It is a disagreement over strategy not the underlying policy.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:26 PM (g1DWB)

260 Yes, everybody knows Republicans oppose ObamaCare. But why do they oppose it? Because they're greedy? Because they hate poor people? Because they've been bought off by Big Pharma or whatever? Maybe Jon Stewart can spell it out for us.The only thing the Republicans have going for them is the impressive awfulness of ObamaCare itself. If the public wises up, it will be no thanks to the GOP.
Posted by: sandy burger at September 24, 2013 05:23 PM (4dy3y)

On the fringes. Now they know that not only did they oppose it but they tried to basically overturn and not have it go into effect. The press cannot spin it any other way.

Now when the LIV feel the negative effects of Obamacare, the Dems will own it completely.

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:27 PM (m2CN7)

261 Rand Paul is now speaking

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:27 PM (nqBYe)

262 Noted RINO Thomas Sowell also says this has been a stupid waste of time and energy. I'm sure we'll manage to turn this into 2 or 3 lost Senate Seats by replacing incumbents with Sharron Angle clones in primaries.
Posted by: buzz at September 24, 2013 04:43 PM (i27M5)

I voted for Mourdock and against Lugar in the primary, knowing that Mourdock--obviously not ready for the big leagues--would probably lose to Donnelly in the general but believing it was more important to have a Republican candidate who actually represented my beliefs running for the office rather than Dick Lugar, that Beltway RINO Establishment hack who hasn't lived in Indiana for over 15 years. I don't regret that vote. So yeah, if it comes to that, I'll risk an Angle or a Mourdock if it means there's a chance to get a thinking, fighting conservative Republican in that seat. The risk is worth it. Go big or go home.

Posted by: troyriser at September 24, 2013 05:27 PM (2jF2B)

263 222
212 I swear Cruz is calling Obama "Madam President." Did I miss
something? I know he can't be, he's get crucified for it, but would be
awesome.

Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 05:16 PM (8wqqE)


****************


You usually address the person sitting in the chair at the moment in the Senate.


So that "honor" usually goes to the newbies of the Senate majority party.Posted by: tasker at September 24, 2013 05:18 PM (r2PLg)

Thanks. He was addressing Obama for a while, then Madam Presidenting it up. made me lol.

Rand up now on the floor. . .

Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 05:27 PM (8wqqE)

264 ||And Paul, the subject of the post, is on the floor.

Posted by: RoyalOil at September 24, 2013 05:27 PM (VjL9S)

265 The MSM and the Dems desperately want this to be all
about the GOP and GOP infighting.


Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 05:24 PM (HjPtV)

And certain House republicans obliged them. Which shows where their priorities lie...

Posted by: KG at September 24, 2013 05:27 PM (p7BzH)

266 so rand paul must really hate this Cruz filibuster crap.

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:27 PM (nqBYe)

267 "And I walk things back and apologize when I'm wrong because I try to have some fucking intellectual integrity"

Say what you want about JeffB,, there are times he can bring the funny.

Posted by: lowandslow at September 24, 2013 05:27 PM (APJIX)

268 75 There's a lot of projection there. People who thought defunding wasa bad idea weren't arguing in good faith. They have been pretty much calling the other side every kind of euphemism for maniacs that can be thought of.

Both sides are guilty of resorting to name-calling and using hyperbolic rhetoric. For my part, as someone who is pro-delay*, I believe that those in the pro-defunding camp have their hearts in the right place but I disagree with the strategy.

*Push full repeal, settle for delay

Posted by: Miss80sBaby at September 24, 2013 05:28 PM (YjDyJ)

269 And there's Rand Paul, joining Cruz on the Senate floor right now. I'm sure NBC was telling the truth though and not just trying to alienate Paul's supporters.

Posted by: booger at September 24, 2013 05:28 PM (xRDdL)

270 False argument. Those who followed Cruz's strategy aren't True Cons and those who didn't aren't RINOs. It is a disagreement over strategy not the underlying policy.
Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:26 PM (g1DWB)

Yes exactly. I was trying to find a way to say it short and sweet. That does it.

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:28 PM (m2CN7)

271 Rand's much more soothing to listen to.

Posted by: m at September 24, 2013 05:28 PM (jlqKz)

272 comes out swinging.

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:28 PM (nqBYe)

273 The sideline Senators are already losers on the subject of ZeroCare so their opinions count for little.

I support Ted. He's in the arena and fighting.

Posted by: MTF at September 24, 2013 05:29 PM (B5y+v)

274 The GOP failed to retake the Senate or Presidency in 2012. The GOP lost the Senate and Presidency in 2008. The GOP lost the House in 2006. Elections have consequences. That's sort of the way it has to be in any sort of democracy.



As such, the GOP doesn't have that much power to do all that much. However, to just rubber stamp and fund whatever it is that the Obama Administration and Democrat Party demand is stupid. It is especially stupid as Obama Care is thoroughly unpopular and "playing politics" with it is a good idea.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:29 PM (j+cSS)

275 I'm thinking the GOP were dupes by agreeing back in 2011 to repeal the ridiculous 1099-form reporting requirement for smallish expenditures. ... at least not without a further concession.

Posted by: @SenSeriousCat at September 24, 2013 05:29 PM (UypUQ)

276 The GOP has literally had years to prepare the battleground for this, and pretty much not bothered. It's been a convenient campaign tool, but there's been no serious effort to educate the public, no strategy formed to bypass the media and get the message out there enough to enrage the low info voters (or educate them so they're not low info anymore) and pressure the Dems to roll this back. So I'm forced to conclude that the GOP feels about Obamacare kind of like some Christians feel when they forward that email claiming Obama is actually the Antichrist. It's nothing. It's all kabuki, including what Cruz is doing right now (even though I'll enjoy every minute of it and agree with 90% of what he's saying). The GOP likes big government just fine, it's only that the GOP wants to be the group running it.

Posted by: LauraC at September 24, 2013 05:29 PM (fXZDm)

277 What bothers me is the Hot Talk about crap that most of us, frankly, know very little about, and I include myself. I'll confess that when Gabe and Drew were discussing defund vs. delay on the podcast, I honestly had no idea what they were talking about. I was just silent, because I was listening. Learning.

I'm sure if we all listened and learned on Amnesty we would have somehow seen how awesomely GENIUS that Rubio was

The trouble with all this "inside baseball" shit on procedure and protocols is that most of us live real lives outside the Beltway. We don't know how the sausage is made, we don't WANT to know. Just kill the pig and make the damned sausage

I'm sure that the podcast is all sorts of engaging if you're into sausage making, but it sounds to me like Keith Law putting people to sleep with his microanalysis of each and every damned pitch in the game.

I suppose like most of us I'm a bit more LIV than I'd like to admit, but in the end I just want to know who won the game



Posted by: kbdabear at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (/9IC1)

278 This reminds me again that we seem to want to fight other conservative-leaning people more than we want to fight Democrats. We don't like Reid, but we hate the RINOs among us. I don't know. -- Ace

Speak for yourself about who/what we prefer to fight.

Defund authoritarianism.
Rescind authoritarianism.

Even the President of Iran reminds Americans that though more difficult, the only effective leadership stipulates exactly what one DOES want, including with the plan of implementation the personal necessary WILL to diligently carry out the plan through work.

ObamaCare either will or will not destroy America's economy and the last vestige of constitutional rights.

If ObamaCare will destroy America, it is every American's duty to halt that destruction.

Postponing the arrival at destination destruction while building the organized protection to rescind the worst impact from negative force is better than "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die." Moe Boehner: Give up liberty; Authoritarianism is the law of the land.

Some of us care about the Great American Legacy, liberty protected by constitutional governance. Others say they couldn't care less about the outmoded horse they never liked, anyway.

Distracting from one's duty in order to call "Squirrel" Rand Paul v. Ted Cruz -- "There's a certain amount of fun or satisfaction in pushing something out there, or pushing something along. But I think maybe it's too much fun, or there's too much satisfaction in it."

— Lauren Fox (@FoxReports) ??

So what! Of course there's going to be discussion. As if Cruz is wrong. As if Rand Paul is a bit jealous to be out of the spotlight as "the" constitutional champion at this moment.

Between the two, the guy who flipped his own platform at the last minute in order to endorse Obamalite has loyalty issues. I abandoned my platform in order to jump ship, and sink anyway, united front.

Rand Paul's got the floor at the moment...

Posted by: panzernashorn at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (MhA4j)

279 Can't you just make a little extra or put a little more on your plate, knowing she'll swipe some? Anticipate it? I do that at my house, works every time.




Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 05:22 PM (8wqqE)


------------------

NO.

I don't have to 'Sally-size' my plate.

"Well, are you having anything?"

IRRELEVANT, WOMAN.

What does my eating have to do with whether you're hungry or not? I will fix you something, even if I'm not having anything. Just tell me you want something and I will provide it! Why is it so hard? !

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (pqBkB)

280 Cruz is doing what he was elected to do.

Posted by: TC at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (ygAxO)

281
@244
But we don't want Assad to win easily either. Hizballah and Pasdaran (IRGC) are there taking casualties: A Good Thing. When two enemies are fighting the cruel but wise thing to do is keep it going. Sure, it's a bit like showing up in a fire truck full of gasoline, but the world sucks.

Posted by: Beagle at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (sOtz/)

282
Well at least we got the straight skinny on Cornyn. Texas, we have a little work to do.
If Wendy Davis is smart she'll run for Cornyn's seat after he gets roughed up in a primary cause it needs to happen to him.

Posted by: DanMan at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (RusNE)

283 >>Yes exactly. I was trying to find a way to say it short and sweet. That does it.

BTW, Oracle has just come back in the 2nd race of the day and taken a lead over the Kiwis on leg 3 with an incredible pass. If they win this it is all on one race tomorrow for the Cup.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (g1DWB)

284 "The President said, 'My way or the highway.'"
Nice.

Posted by: m at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (jlqKz)

285 For instance. Please point out these comments.

How about you read the comments yourself? You can find them in every thread about this topic.

Or just scrolling up a little in this very thread:

Our problem right now is that there really really really are some
Republicans who want Obamacare to become the way of the world, but they
are playing games with it, so as to avoid being outed as Obamacare
lovers.



But McCain et al aren't, they love big govt and secretly obamacare, as long as they are not a part of it.

I could find you pages and pages more, but instead how about you find me ONE such thread where the "blame the GOP for Obamacare" sentiment isn't pervasive?


Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 05:31 PM (SY2Kh)

286 None of this makes any damn difference!

We all know Obamacare will be funded because the GOP will not shut down the government, so this is just Ted Cruz speaking the truth about a horrible bill for a few hours....

Yet, the GOP STILL attacks him for no reason. His talking filibuster does nothing except that it allows people to hear the truth for a few measly hours. GOOD FOR HIM. SAY WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHATEVER HAPPENS, HAPPENS!

Why is hearing the truth for a few hours a problem when everyone knows they can go back to raping the fuck out of us right after in the "greatest legislative body" on Earth. And by greatest, I mean shittiest.

Posted by: Dan at September 24, 2013 05:31 PM (m3gf3)

287 Paul, making the argument that the "leadership" should have been making:
It's obama who won't compromise--he is the one forcing a shutdown because he wants 100% of what he wants.

Posted by: RoyalOil at September 24, 2013 05:31 PM (VjL9S)

288 It is a disagreement over strategy not the underlying policy.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:26 PM (g1DWB)

true but many are intimating those that believe in using this opportunity to have cruz and rand paul and lee voice OUR honest arguments with the bill are reactionary idiots

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:31 PM (nqBYe)

289 Who wants the government shut down?

Cruz, or Obama.

Posted by: Rand Paul at September 24, 2013 05:31 PM (MhA4j)

290 And there's Rand Paul, joining Cruz on the Senate
floor right now. I'm sure NBC was telling the truth though and not just
trying to alienate Paul's supporters.


Posted by: booger at September 24, 2013 05:28 PM (xRDdL)

Thanks - no cable or satellite here. And, #69 superfine. Heh.

Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 05:32 PM (HjPtV)

291 Rand Paul bringing it on C-Span !

Posted by: 4th horseman of the apocalypse (no I haven't lost my head) at September 24, 2013 05:32 PM (KuZ6A)

292 Rand had laryngitis or some other cause of squeaky voice.

Posted by: m at September 24, 2013 05:32 PM (jlqKz)

293 What does my eating have to do with whether you're hungry or not? I will fix you something, even if I'm not having anything. Just tell me you want something and I will provide it! Why is it so hard? !
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (pqBkB)
*************

See? While the rest of you fags are arguing about fantasy football politics, Jeff is preaching the fucking gospel and bringing knowlege to the masses.

Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:32 PM (HzhBE)

294 What female GOP member brought Obamacare to the floor intially?

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:32 PM (nqBYe)

295 The GOP likes big government just fine, it's only that the GOP wants to be the group running it.
Posted by: LauraC at September 24, 2013 05:29 PM (fXZDm)

heh ^

Posted by: The Jackhole at September 24, 2013 05:32 PM (nTgAI)

296 And Rand opens the door wide open for Cruz to explain what he's doing.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 05:32 PM (DmNpO)

297 Bringing it!

Posted by: m at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (jlqKz)

298 >>true but many are intimating those that believe in using this opportunity to have cruz and rand paul and lee voice OUR honest arguments with the bill are reactionary idiots

And many who have been saying from day 1 that this is exactly where we would end up have been called far worse.

Who cares? It's the internet.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (g1DWB)

299 @DavidMDrucker @JRubinBlogger I'm told by RP's spokesman he's against cloture. That decision must have been made in last 90 minutes. FYI.

Posted by: Miss80sBaby at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (YjDyJ)

300
Jesse, when I caught you fooling around in that other thread I warned you. Now, I'm just gonna have to get your attention.

Now, right now I'm driving down the Interstate in my old Caddy but when I get to ABQ in a few daysI'm gonna M-60 your ass GOOD AND HARD!
Posted by: Walt at September 24, 2013 05:13 PM (LA7Cm)


Walt, you deluded old man. The money...YOUR money is gone. And the only thing that is getting it in the ass GOOD AND HARD are Skylar and Walt, Jr. I talked Todd out of doing Holly. You owe me...

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (T0Pku)

301 If Wendy Davis is smart she'll run for Cornyn's seat after he gets roughed up in a primary cause it needs to happen to him.


Yes, because electing an Abortion on Demand Democrat is exactly what we need to do to teach that RINO a lesson.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (OWjjx)

302 Nancy Sinatra jokes coming in 3...2...

Posted by: garrett at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (nKFzF)

303 Cruz is doing what he was elected to do.

He was elected to campaign for 2016?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 05:34 PM (SY2Kh)

304 I don't really know if this procedural inside baseball stuff is really a good idea or not.

I do know that the concerted effort to trash Ted Cruz is reminiscent of the sliming of Sarah Palin and a lot of the same DC Republicans seem to have been involved in both efforts.

I have voted in every election since I turned 18 and I have voted Republican since Ronald Reagan but I am not sure it is worth the effort any more.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at September 24, 2013 05:34 PM (31Nrp)

305 OT: If the Braves don't at least win the NL pennant this year I'll hang myself.

Posted by: Moron with Binders Full of Snuggies at September 24, 2013 05:34 PM (Ks4nX)

306 Mark Levin has this dead on. He is 100% right. As is his concept of state nullification and/ora constitutional convention.

The latter is scary, but I look foward to hearing his comments on how to deal with such an issue.

Posted by: prescient11 at September 24, 2013 05:34 PM (tVTLU)

307 I have just got in the habit of putting toast in both sides of the toaster, because every time my wife smells it and starts eating mine beforei have put the butter and jam away.

She never turns it down

Posted by: The Jackhole at September 24, 2013 05:34 PM (nTgAI)

308
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (pqBkB)
Hah, I stand corrected.
Cruz is talking about boots, hahaha...something for all the morons and moronettes!

Posted by: LizLem, who wants to get off this crazy thing at September 24, 2013 05:35 PM (8wqqE)

309 Posted by: Jesse Pinkman at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (T0Pku)

Hey now! No spoilers!

Posted by: KG at September 24, 2013 05:35 PM (p7BzH)

310 I can not support my senators or my representatives. The ONLY thing they are interested in is their reelection. How the hell do you get certain folks to PUT THE MIRROR DOWN and understand that the world does not revolve around you. The amount of contempt I have for several in the house is epic. I'd like to slap the crap out of them and go face to face, screaming at the top of my lungs. Defund this piece of crap law and lets get down to business. My 3 year old niece has a set of balls bigger than these jackasses.

Posted by: Me at September 24, 2013 05:35 PM (YbL96)

311
285 -

There's a world of difference between "responsible for" and "did nothing to stop it," smart guy.

Posted by: BurtTC at September 24, 2013 05:35 PM (TOk1P)

312 Cruz is firing up the base of GOP the Reagan Dems the blue collar rank n file the tea party the libertarians

Sounds like a voting bloc to me

Of course that's y DC elites yeah I mean elites Peeps who live in beltway earning >140k and who also think flyover is ignorant unwashed that's elitist

Anyway that's y elites hate what Cruz is doing Hr is awakening and informing populace

They want to slide by their own exemptions and slide by debt ceiling n slide by til they get to hold reins of power

Fxck EM
Primary them all

Posted by: ginaswo at September 24, 2013 05:35 PM (QSkES)

313 Embarrassing confession:

Cruz is wearing the same black tennis shoe model as Orrin Hatch wears. Not his ostrich "argument" boots.

Posted by: panzernashorn at September 24, 2013 05:35 PM (MhA4j)

314 Cruz should just kneel down and kiss Harry Reid's feet. For comity's sake.

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 24, 2013 05:35 PM (ZshNr)

315 OT: If the Braves don't at least win the NL pennant this year I'll hang myself.

It will be the Dodgers because..........well.............you guys know why.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 24, 2013 05:35 PM (OWjjx)

316 EoJ and Warden don't understand that food has zero calories if it's not eaten from your own plate. ;-)

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at September 24, 2013 05:35 PM (5H6zj)

317 "Playing politics" is especially "a good idea" as this isn't "playing "low" politics." It's something else entirely. Some sort of stand has to be made and someone has to make it.



It is especially a good idea as the whole thing is iterative, and "a loss" now will lead to a better position in the future. Trying to do the purely instinctual thing, and "avoid any loss at all times" is pointless as it does not lead anywhere.

Phrased slightly differently, the GOP has nothing to lose. But the GOP Establishment derives its authority and "right to rule" from the idea that it is professional and "doing nothing" seems much more "professional" (on a stupid level) than "doing something which will fail" even though "doing something which will fail" is actually much more beneficial in this particular instance.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:36 PM (j+cSS)

318 BTW, Oracle has just come back in the 2nd race of the day and taken a lead over the Kiwis on leg 3 with an incredible pass. If they win this it is all on one race tomorrow for the Cup.
Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (g1DWB

And when the Kiwis win tomorrow for the Cup, my conspiracy theory will be complete. Seriously, how great would it be if Oracle could pull this out. One of the top three comeback sporting events ever.

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:36 PM (m2CN7)

319 Yesterday, Ted Cruz repeatedly petitioned Harry Reid to NOT SHUT DOWN GOVERNMENT, to allow a vote on his CR funding bill.

Posted by: panzernashorn at September 24, 2013 05:37 PM (MhA4j)

320 I do believe that there is a point to being over the top against Obamacare. It's the only way you will penetrate the fog of the low information voter. It won't help now, but when things go bad after Obamacare is enacted they might, maybe, put two and two together and realize that conservatives were right all along, and this has been a disaster. I also think there is a window to actually do something about the legislation, because it was designed to fail so that it would usher in the cry for single payer. It would be possible to steal that window if you were clever.

Posted by: DFCtomm at September 24, 2013 05:37 PM (E7GZC)

321 @DavidMDrucker @JRubinBlogger I'm told by RP's spokesman he's against cloture. That decision must have been made in last 90 minutes. FYI.
Posted by: Miss80sBaby at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (YjDyJ)

Interesting, very interesting

Posted by: The Jackhole at September 24, 2013 05:37 PM (nTgAI)

322 What does my eating have to do with whether you're hungry or not? I will fix you something, even if I'm not having anything. Just tell me you want something and I will provide it! Why is it so hard? !

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (pqBkB)


This is a Mars/Venus thing. You're having food, she's sharing a meal with you. You're talking about something, she's having a conversation. Et hoc genus omne.

You might as well argue with the wind or sea.

I bet God is laughing his ass off, though. "Let's make this necessary but impossible and see what happens!"

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile at September 24, 2013 05:37 PM (qyfb5)

323 Rand Paul: "will you Sen. Cruz, be willing to work with us for COMPROMISE with ObamaCare?"

Posted by: panzernashorn at September 24, 2013 05:38 PM (MhA4j)

324 I don't know what's going on either, or what the point it.

Scary thing is, they don't either.

Posted by: PJ at September 24, 2013 05:38 PM (ZWaLo)

325 And many who have been saying from day 1 that this is exactly where we would end up have been called far worse.


Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (g1DWB)

Any path will end up the same way, so the delay plan wasn't any better nor had better chance of success. We wanted more of a fight, we always want more of a fight, and liked it when Cruz decided to. Not that it is reasonable to expect the republicans as a whole to really fight, because they haven't been in the habit of doing so so for many years.

Posted by: KG at September 24, 2013 05:38 PM (p7BzH)

326 BTW, Oracle has just come back in the 2nd race of the day and taken a lead over the Kiwis on leg 3 with an incredible pass. If they win this it is all on one race tomorrow for the Cup. Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:30 PM (g1DWB And when the Kiwis win tomorrow for the Cup, my conspiracy theory will be complete. Seriously, how great would it be if Oracle could pull this out. One of the top three comeback sporting events ever.
Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:36 PM (m2CN7)

Pretty cool. I don't know anything about sailing. I fish and prefer power boats, but those racing boats can haul ass downwind !

Posted by: The Jackhole at September 24, 2013 05:39 PM (nTgAI)

327 Cruz is wavering; it's like he's too tired to talk anymore, or to think anymore. Somebody needs to hand him a text to read from.

Posted by: m at September 24, 2013 05:39 PM (jlqKz)

328 The GOP likes big government just fine, it's only that the GOP wants to be the group running it.

Posted by: LauraC at September 24, 2013 05:29 PM (fXZDm)


And we have a winner, folks! LauraC please pick up your internets at the payout window!

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at September 24, 2013 05:39 PM (yh0zB)

329 why are so many people in these comment threads (and over on places like Hot Air) absolutely convinced that what Cruz is doing can work?

You mostly just make up shit. I don't know about HA, but I've been following most of these threads and haven't read 1 commenter state that he/she was absolutely convinced that what Cruz is doing can work. Read more before you make such statements of "fact".

Posted by: Ronster at September 24, 2013 05:39 PM (J8dt5)

330 >>And when the Kiwis win tomorrow for the Cup, my conspiracy theory will be complete. Seriously, how great would it be if Oracle could pull this out. One of the top three comeback sporting events ever.

Holy crap. Down 8-1 the American's have tied it 8-8.

One race tomorrow for the Cup. Most amazing thing I've ever seen in sports.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:39 PM (g1DWB)

331 True story: My wife and I got into a fight on our honeymoon because I wouldn't share a dessert with her.

I didn't not share MY dessert. I simply didn't WANT dessert. All I wanted was coffee.

My wife said she felt stupid eating her dessert "alone." Which is strange because I was right next to her drinking my coffee.

Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:40 PM (HzhBE)

332 Cruz should start twerking. The only way he'll show up on the alphabet networks.

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 24, 2013 05:41 PM (ZshNr)

333 Poker? Deal me in.

Posted by: Juan McCain at September 24, 2013 05:41 PM (0axsw)

334
Down 8-1 what's?
I don't pretend to understand yachting.

Posted by: garrett at September 24, 2013 05:41 PM (nKFzF)

335 321
@DavidMDrucker @JRubinBlogger I'm told by RP's spokesman he's against
cloture. That decision must have been made in last 90 minutes. FYI.

Posted by: Miss80sBaby at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (YjDyJ)



Interesting, very interesting


I wouldn't put much stock in what they have to say, especially Rubin who's been attacking Cruz non-stop on twitter.

Posted by: booger at September 24, 2013 05:41 PM (xRDdL)

336 Cruz is now parroting Ace's poker analogies.

Posted by: Serious Cat at September 24, 2013 05:41 PM (UypUQ)

337 Ted Cruz: We have to stand and fight right now. If all Senate Republicans vote in a block vs. Harry Reid, then we win the volley.

Rand Paul is Compromise. He most definitely is not "Dr. No". Rand's principle is Compromise.

Cruz: This is like a poker game. "If you raise me, I'll fold" is a sure way to lose every game.

Posted by: panzernashorn at September 24, 2013 05:41 PM (MhA4j)

338 "Cruz is now parroting Ace's poker analogies."

Johnny Mac hardest hit.

Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 05:42 PM (HjPtV)

339 This is a good example of Rubin's "reporting" - https://twitter.com/JRubinBlogger/status/382618385390923777

Posted by: booger at September 24, 2013 05:42 PM (xRDdL)

340 So....we're all RINO's now?

What does this mean?

What's the correct position on this?

Bent over with your pants at your ankles?

Posted by: Low information Republican Squish at September 24, 2013 05:42 PM (RFeQD)

341 "324 I don't know what's going on either, or what the point it.

Scary thing is, they don't either.

Posted by: PJ at September 24, 2013 05:38 PM (ZWaLo) "

Deck chairs. Titanic. (Hyper)inflated monetary supply. Entitlements (more pretty much every fucking day for whatever reason -- because it buys votes and therefore power, and the ruling classes love Socialism anyway) out the wazoo. Baby boomers retiring right about now. Pretty much everything since the Baby Boom has been a giant mistake. Socially, and economically speaking, where one can be slightly more objective, everything has been a giant mistake since some Serbian prick shot some Austrian fag a century ago. And, in fact, pretty much everything has been a giant mistake since long before that. That's life. A giant mistake. Since pretty much the Big Bang and/or abiogenesis.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:43 PM (j+cSS)

342 Leahy admits pelosi, reid, etc this is first step to single payer

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:43 PM (nqBYe)

343 she felt stupid eating her dessert "alone."

I recognize all these words, but the order they're in make no sense to me.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™, BFD, ZOMG, WTF, BBQ, QED at September 24, 2013 05:43 PM (/kI1Q)

344
This nation was founded by people who were willing to fight any fight, at any time,and stand their groundAGAINST ALL ODDS, as the whole world around them were telling them they could not prevail. I think there is a lesson in their attitude for those of us today.

Posted by: BackInTime at September 24, 2013 05:43 PM (NP8ek)

345 Good lord Pat Roberts of Kansas brought it too!

Posted by: 4th horseman of the apocalypse (no I haven't lost my head) at September 24, 2013 05:43 PM (KuZ6A)

346 Sen. Pat Roberts R-Kansas

Is stopping socialism worth pulling out all the stops and fighting the good fight?

Socialized medicine is an inevitable disaster.

/as is socialism

Posted by: panzernashorn at September 24, 2013 05:44 PM (MhA4j)

347 Blake Griffin just had a baby with the woman who bore Matt Leinart's kid. That vagina is an earner!

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 24, 2013 05:44 PM (ZshNr)

348 Is stopping socialism worth pulling out all the stops and fighting the good fight?

***

You're damn right it is!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 05:44 PM (DmNpO)

349 "327 Cruz is wavering; it's like he's too tired to talk anymore, or to think anymore. Somebody needs to hand him a text to read from.

Posted by: m at September 24, 2013 05:39 PM (jlqKz) "

Getting cunt punted can be exhausting. That's life. So many cunt punters, so little time.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:45 PM (j+cSS)

350 Was the guy standing in front of that row of tanks in Tiaminan Square making an ineffectual, futile gesture? Based on his final results, sure, as he got Rachel Corried. But he stopped them for a while, and got a lot of attention, and the Chinese have been a bit more sensitive to the will of the people.

Does what Cruz is doing advance his career? Sure. Is it strictly grandstanding, or an honest expression of his opposition? No one knows that for sure, but a fair guess would be a bit of both.

If what he is doing gives House Rs a little more backbone, where the real battle is being fought, isn't that a win on its own? One battle does not, in general, determine a war. At least he is battling.

Posted by: GnuBreed at September 24, 2013 05:45 PM (wNF3N)

351 Cruz is trying to stop Obamacare. Why do you want Cruz to stop trying to stop Obamacare, Hollowpoint?

He's not trying to stop Obamacare. He's smart enough to know that he can't.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 05:45 PM (SY2Kh)

352 "He's not trying to stop Obamacare. He's smart enough to know that he can't."

No, he can't. But the American people can.

Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 05:46 PM (HjPtV)

353 Here's the thing. Why is it the 6,000th TruCon vs. RINO fight? Because the Republicans, almost to a man, run as TruCons.

If this were an issue where the TruCons were upset that someone voted according to the same platform they ran on, that would be on the TruCons, but what always happens is that a candidate doesn't support and sometimes actively opposes, the very principles that he espoused as a candidate. That is a very rational basis for feeling betrayed, because it is a betrayal.

Assuming arguendo that "compromise must be made," what was the last material compromise that the Republicans extracted from the Democrats?

Posted by: Boone at September 24, 2013 05:46 PM (3p8HS)

354 ack i was wrong, Roberts

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:46 PM (nqBYe)

355 >>Down 8-1 what's?
I don't pretend to understand yachting.

Well you don't need to know how to race sailboats for this. The Americans were down 8 races to 1 in a race to 9 wins. They weren't just losing they were getting crushed.

And now it is all tied up with 1 race to decide the cup. If you haven't been watching tune in tomorrow. Never seen sailboat racing like this.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:46 PM (g1DWB)

356 There's a couple of beneficial things to come out of this. DeathpanelCare was never going to be defunded via this method. People hate it but they fear the concept of a government "shutdown" more. What this does do is show where the energy is. The Right is pushing popular reform while the Communitarians are protecting a corrupt status quo.

This scenario informs and hopefully further burdens the Democrat Party with political fatigue and burnout come 2014/2016.

Posted by: Wonkish Rogue at September 24, 2013 05:46 PM (dvRYt)

357 "328 The GOP likes big government just fine, it's only that the GOP wants to be the group running it.

Posted by: LauraC at September 24, 2013 05:29 PM (fXZDm)


And we have a winner, folks! LauraC please pick up your internets at the payout window!

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at September 24, 2013 05:39 PM (yh0zB) "

Meh. The GOP, is, for whatever reason, a little Bismarckian. At least it isn't Marxist, Keynesian, and Galbraithian like the Democrats.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:47 PM (j+cSS)

358 327
Cruz is wavering; it's like he's too tired to talk anymore, or to think anymore. Somebody needs to hand him a text to read from.

Posted by: m at September 24, 2013 05:39 PM (jlqKz)
Read the Bible, that's good for a while or read the constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence. Read common sense.Someone should bring in a military choir to sing behind him

Posted by: the most interesting at September 24, 2013 05:47 PM (Nx76m)

359 >>>No, he can't. But the American people can.
Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 05:46 PM (HjPtV)And they decided not to when they gave Obama a second term. It can't be stopped, now they must be made to suffer and realize the enormity of their mistake.

Posted by: Paul at September 24, 2013 05:47 PM (JM48I)

360 There's wisdom in going through the full process, if only to prevent us being inured to rubber stamp votes being decided behind locked clubroom doors.

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 24, 2013 05:47 PM (ZshNr)

361 "276
The GOP has literally had years to prepare the battleground for this,
and pretty much not bothered. It's been a convenient campaign tool, but
there's been no serious effort to educate the public, no strategy formed
to bypass the media and get the message out there enough to enrage the
low info voters (or educate them so they're not low info anymore) and
pressure the Dems to roll this back. So I'm forced to conclude that the
GOP feels about Obamacare kind of like some Christians feel when they
forward that email claiming Obama is actually the Antichrist. It's
nothing. It's all kabuki, including what Cruz is doing right now (even
though I'll enjoy every minute of it and agree with 90% of what he's
saying). The GOP likes big government just fine, it's only that the GOP
wants to be the group running it.

Posted by: LauraC at September 24, 2013 05:29 PM (fXZDm)"

That is because the GOP is not an ideological organization. It is not even an organization that is designed to get Republicans elected to public office.

In its present form the Republican Party is an organization who's only purpose is to efficiently transfer money from donors to political consultants. That's it. If you would like an opposition political party or a party that will work to get control of the elected offices of the United States, you will either need to start another political party or take over the GOP and throw out the old set of rascals. I am not saying that the new replacements will not also be rascals but, hopefully the fate of the old rascals will motivate them to put as much effort into winning political battles against Democrats as they put into fighting Republicans.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at September 24, 2013 05:48 PM (31Nrp)

362 "331 True story: My wife and I got into a fight on our honeymoon because I wouldn't share a dessert with her.

I didn't not share MY dessert. I simply didn't WANT dessert. All I wanted was coffee.

My wife said she felt stupid eating her dessert "alone." Which is strange because I was right next to her drinking my coffee.

Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:40 PM (HzhBE) "

Women's obsession is that you'll leave them (without them getting to leave you first and rob you). They're not that complex. :-P

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:49 PM (j+cSS)

363 317
It is especially a good idea as the whole thing is iterative, and "a loss" now will lead to a better position in the future.Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:36 PM (j+cSS)Sorry dude, any time I see "We'll win by losing", my bullshit alarm gets tripped.

Posted by: Paul at September 24, 2013 05:49 PM (JM48I)

364 My wife said she felt stupid eating her dessert "alone." Which is strange because I was right next to her drinking my coffee.


Posted by: Warden at September 24, 2013 05:40 PM (HzhBE)

-------------------

They're nuts! They think they can convince everyone that they subsist on pecking a bite here or there, but don't eat actual meals.

Next time we go to dinner I'm tempted to pull a handful of birdseed from my pocket and toss on the table.

"No, she's not hungry. She'll just peck her birdseed like she does all the time. BECAUSE SHE'S AN ACTUAL BIRD.

What? Of course bring the wine list. I'll be wanting to split some tailfeathers later."

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 24, 2013 05:49 PM (LhvOs)

365 And what Lincolntf said again, this time @360. He's bringing it.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at September 24, 2013 05:50 PM (5H6zj)

366 "332 Cruz should start twerking. The only way he'll show up on the alphabet networks.

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 24, 2013 05:41 PM (ZshNr) "

It's funny (and sad) because it's true.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:50 PM (j+cSS)

367 Hollowpoint, there is value in symbolic protests; likewise there is a danger in keeping quiet while O'care officially launches in October..

Posted by: Serious Cat at September 24, 2013 05:50 PM (UypUQ)

368 And now it is all tied up with 1 race to decide the cup. If you haven't been watching tune in tomorrow. Never seen sailboat racing like this.Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:46 PM (g1DWB) Better than the end of One Crazy Summer?

Posted by: garrett at September 24, 2013 05:50 PM (nKFzF)

369 >>>I don't know. People will probably tell me not to give up the fight,

That's what this fight is really about I think ace. The Republicans are either too stupid or actually wish it to happen, but the base has been demoralized to the point where LIB and more appropriately MIB is becoming a real attractive option. We are more and more, seeing the Reagan years as a true anomaly, not likely to repeat themselves, and Goldwater being the rule.

Right now the base needs a reason not to actively assist with what appears to be the inevitable implosion of the US. Yes we will lose this fight. But we *might* get something out of it that we otherwise wouldn't have had. And that will show that we can fight. And we could fight and win, if only we had more seats.

It's not about this fight. It's about having the ability to fight.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Laughing Maniacally While Throwing Matches. at September 24, 2013 05:50 PM (0q2P7)

370 "342 Leahy admits pelosi, reid, etc this is first step to single payer

Posted by: willow at September 24, 2013 05:43 PM (nqBYe) "

Communist "health" care.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:51 PM (j+cSS)

371 Sorry dude, any time I see "We'll win by losing", my bullshit alarm gets tripped.
Posted by: Paul at September 24, 2013 05:49 PM (JM48I)

A lot of battles that were lost allowed for the war to be won.

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:52 PM (m2CN7)

372 "343 she felt stupid eating her dessert "alone."

I recognize all these words, but the order they're in make no sense to me.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™, BFD, ZOMG, WTF, BBQ, QED at September 24, 2013 05:43 PM (/kI1Q) "

Really, Heather?

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:52 PM (j+cSS)

373
Fun game to play when out to eat with friends.

"You can have anything you want dear, anything at all. Of course, you know the rules - 20 minutes, max. before you need to go and throw it up."

Posted by: garrett at September 24, 2013 05:52 PM (nKFzF)

374 I'm with Mickey Kaus on this one. Ted Cruz is taking on an unwinnable but very public position to hide his treason and lies on immigration. He could've torpedoed amnesty. He didn't and he won't, so he picks a pointless battle to throw the base some red meat.

Posted by: Lizzie at September 24, 2013 05:52 PM (aYZp4)

375 A lot of battles that were lost allowed for the war to be won.
Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:52 PM (m2CN7)

I am sure you know the most famous.

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 05:52 PM (m2CN7)

376 So help a brother out here. Tell me why this wouldn't work - without crying about the media:

Don't pass a CR. Let the panic attack and government shutdown start.

The House passes not another CR but an official budget. Go on TV and talk about how Harry Reid and the Democrats haven't passed a budget since...whenever. Budget at 2011 rates. Message as, families all across America have had to cut back as this recession has dragged on so why should Washington be any different?

So then it goes to the Senate and, what, we're right back where we are now where if the Senate passes the bill it goes to committee and gets marked up with all the stuff stripped out added back in by the Dems?

Fine, vote and fail it in the House. Surely Washington can survive at 2011 spending levels while so many Americans are out of work or have actually given up hope and dropped out of the workforce. Then pass another budget. Lather, rinse, repeat until the Dems blink. Go populist on their asses.

Crazy talk?

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at September 24, 2013 05:53 PM (6WVi+)

377 "344
This nation was founded by people who were willing to fight any fight, at any time,and stand their groundAGAINST ALL ODDS, as the whole world around them were telling them they could not prevail. I think there is a lesson in their attitude for those of us today.

Posted by: BackInTime at September 24, 2013 05:43 PM (NP8ek) "

Nah, bro. That's ignorant. Black Muslim Communist Lesbians.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:53 PM (j+cSS)

378 >>Better than the end of One Crazy Summer?

Maybe. A bit.

Seriously, these are 72 foot catamarans doing almost 50 miles an hour. Crazy fast.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 24, 2013 05:54 PM (g1DWB)

379 "346 Sen. Pat Roberts R-Kansas

Is stopping socialism worth pulling out all the stops and fighting the good fight?

Socialized medicine is an inevitable disaster.

/as is socialism

Posted by: panzernashorn at September 24, 2013 05:44 PM (MhA4j) "

Awesome. :-)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:54 PM (j+cSS)

380 Bull Run, Second Manassas, Fredricksburg, Chancellorsville. Man, Paul's BS meter would have pegged out at eleventy! e+100

Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 05:54 PM (HjPtV)

381 This isn't Socialized Medicine, it's Fascist Medicine.

Posted by: Boss Moss former editor of the Harvard Law Review at September 24, 2013 05:56 PM (0axsw)

382 "Yes, because electing an Abortion on Demand Democrat is exactly what we need to do to teach that RINO a lesson.
"



The GOP deserves it. These fuckers were sent to DC to fight. I want to see them take concrete steps to reduce the governments power over the citizens. Starting with a law that requires Congress to obey any and all laws imposed on citizens. Abolish the IRS, institute a flat tax. Never produce a bill longer than 3 pages. True transparency. I'm done voting for people that won't even attempt to limit their own power.
Where is the politician that will talk about these things?



Posted by: TC at September 24, 2013 05:56 PM (ygAxO)

383 "350 Was the guy standing in front of that row of tanks in Tiaminan Square making an ineffectual, futile gesture? Based on his final results, sure, as he got Rachel Corried. But he stopped them for a while, and got a lot of attention, and the Chinese have been a bit more sensitive to the will of the people.

Does what Cruz is doing advance his career? Sure. Is it strictly grandstanding, or an honest expression of his opposition? No one knows that for sure, but a fair guess would be a bit of both.

If what he is doing gives House Rs a little more backbone, where the real battle is being fought, isn't that a win on its own? One battle does not, in general, determine a war. At least he is battling.

Posted by: GnuBreed at September 24, 2013 05:45 PM (wNF3N) "

'Heroism? Never heard of it.'

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:57 PM (j+cSS)

384 >>>Bull Run, Second Manassas, Fredricksburg, Chancellorsville. Man, Paul's BS meter would have pegged out at eleventy! e+100
Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 05:54 PM (HjPtV)Dude, those were all catastrophic defeats the Union won IN SPITE, not BECAUSE of. Or are you seriously suggesting letting Lee roflstomp his forces a few times was part of Lincoln's master plan?

Posted by: Paul at September 24, 2013 05:57 PM (JM48I)

385 new post up

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at September 24, 2013 05:58 PM (DmNpO)

386 309 Posted by: Jesse Pinkman at September 24, 2013 05:33 PM (T0Pku)

Hey now! No spoilers!
Posted by: KG at September 24, 2013 05:35 PM (p7BzH)


Scold Walt -- not me!

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman at September 24, 2013 05:58 PM (T0Pku)

387 "351 Cruz is trying to stop Obamacare. Why do you want Cruz to stop trying to stop Obamacare, Hollowpoint?

He's not trying to stop Obamacare. He's smart enough to know that he can't.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 05:45 PM (SY2Kh) "

Instant gratification is for fags. Actually.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 05:58 PM (j+cSS)

388 No, he can't. But the American people can.

Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 05:46 PM (HjPtV)


An optimist. But first there have to be enough of us to wrest control back from the political class.

Many who might agree with us are too lazy or self-absorbed to bother, and would rather watch "Dancing with the Stars."

Posted by: Hurricane LaFawnduh at September 24, 2013 05:58 PM (pginn)

389 Posted by: Paul at September 24, 2013 05:57 PM (JM48I)

How about the battle of Thermopylae ?

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 06:00 PM (m2CN7)

390 Dude, the Army of the Potomac survived to fight another day despite losing nearly every battle between Bull Run and Gettysburg. Do you know what happened to the Republicans in the 1862 mid-terms? But the army remained in the field and FOUGHT! And then Gettysburg, Mine Run, and the arrival of Sarah Palin, errrr, US Grant.

Posted by: mrp at September 24, 2013 06:01 PM (HjPtV)

391 "353 Here's the thing. Why is it the 6,000th TruCon vs. RINO fight? Because the Republicans, almost to a man, run as TruCons.

If this were an issue where the TruCons were upset that someone voted according to the same platform they ran on, that would be on the TruCons, but what always happens is that a candidate doesn't support and sometimes actively opposes, the very principles that he espoused as a candidate. That is a very rational basis for feeling betrayed, because it is a betrayal.

Assuming arguendo that "compromise must be made," what was the last material compromise that the Republicans extracted from the Democrats?

Posted by: Boone at September 24, 2013 05:46 PM (3p8HS) "

TruCon is an agitprop word. And honor is patriarchal and prudish.



Later, all.

God bless. :-)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at September 24, 2013 06:01 PM (j+cSS)

392 Well Allahpundit just called DrewM out over on Hot Air.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 24, 2013 06:01 PM (n/+FT)

393 I'm done voting for people that won't even attempt to limit their own power.Where is the politician that will talk about these things?
Posted by: TC at September 24, 2013 05:56 PM (ygAxO)

Okay so you're done voting for those people. Are you going to begin to vote for the left or you just done voting?

Posted by: polynikes at September 24, 2013 06:02 PM (m2CN7)

394 I call bullshit on 171. The thing would have never made it out if committee without GOP help.

Posted by: Lois Lerner has flabby titties at September 24, 2013 06:07 PM (IIIE8)

395
"defund vs. delay"


I think this argument is a mistake.

I've read some very recent articles (over the last 3 days) that report job hour cuts, layoffs, small families being notified that their health insurance bills will (almost) triple.

Making ObamaCare happen, on schedule, seems the best plan.

The outcry from The People will get the attention of Congress.

2014 will happen in November 2013 ... and December 2013 ... and January 2104, ...

ObamaCare will be repealed, many D's will be recalled or de-elected ...

Posted by: Arbalest at September 24, 2013 06:08 PM (FlRtG)

396 "Okay so you're done voting for those people. Are you going to begin to vote for the left or you just done voting?"

Done. I've written to my rep and senators asking the simple question "What have you done to limit your own power during this term?"

I'm sure I'll get a reply any day now. Any politician who wants my vote has to at least attempt to limit their own power.

Posted by: TC at September 24, 2013 06:11 PM (ygAxO)

397 I'm sure I'll get a reply any day now. Any politician who wants my vote has to at least attempt to limit their own power.
Posted by: TC at September 24, 2013 06:11 PM (ygAxO)

Well, it's fair to say that by choosing not to vote, you've done all you can to limit your own power.

Posted by: troyriser at September 24, 2013 06:12 PM (2jF2B)

398 327. Posted by: m at September 24, 2013 05:39 PM (jlqKz)

Says you.

You're not listening to the ongoing conversations between Cruz and fellow Senators.

Posted by: panzernashorn at September 24, 2013 06:12 PM (MhA4j)

399 Cruz didn't say "defund vs. delay". Don't stay stuck on stupid repeating that false argument which is not Cruz'.

The point of defund is one delay in the procedural play of volleys from House to Senate and back again.

Overall game goal? Rescind.

People, even those in law, who assume that one battle is the war, show why they aren't really practicing law. Just talking. Blowing smoke.

Posted by: panzernashorn at September 24, 2013 06:15 PM (MhA4j)

400 Jeff Sessions is 100% with Ted Cruz.

Obamacare most damaging bill in 100 years.

The House has already acted.
The Senate refuses to rally.

Posted by: panzernashorn at September 24, 2013 06:19 PM (MhA4j)

401 Rubio rises to stand with Ted!

Posted by: Count de Monet at September 24, 2013 06:24 PM (BAS5M)

402 335 321 I wouldn't put much stock in what they have to say, especially Rubin who's been attacking Cruz non-stop on twitter.

From what I have read thus far, Drucker is not a particularly biased reporter. (All reporters are biased but some more than others.) As for Sen. Paul, he has signaled he would vote "yes", then changed his mind. I can think of several reasons why but only he knows the reason.

@DavidMDrucker @JRubinBlogger He wasn't a "yes." But I felt comfortable writing that he was signaling such, based on his quotes.

Posted by: Miss80sBaby at September 24, 2013 06:29 PM (YjDyJ)

403 Hollowpoint, there is value in symbolic protests; likewise there is a
danger in keeping quiet while O'care officially launches in October..


I wouldn't ask or want anyone to be quiet. Shout it from the rooftops- Obamacare is a disaster.

I just want our side to come down to reality, start thinking strategically, and to stop expecting the impossible then getting pissed off when they don't get it.

The enemy is on the other side of the isle.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 06:34 PM (SY2Kh)

404 In its present form the Republican Party is an organization who's only purpose is to efficiently transfer money from donors to political consultants. That's it. If you would like an opposition political party or a party that will work to get control of the elected offices of the United States, you will either need to start another political party or take over the GOP and throw out the old set of rascals. I am not saying that the new replacements will not also be rascals but, hopefully the fate of the old rascals will motivate them to put as much effort into winning political battles against Democrats as they put into fighting Republicans.
Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at September 24, 2013 05:48 PM (31Nrp)
---------------------
Well, yeah. My Congressional representation is pretty solidly conservative, except for Mary Landrieu, and I'm doing what I can to unseat her. But I do wish we could pull together a viable third party so the conservatives can jump ship and let the "reasonable moderates" so beloved by MSNBC (except in election years) have the GOP all to themselves.

Posted by: LauraC at September 24, 2013 06:41 PM (fXZDm)

405 376 The House passes not another CR but an official budget.

The House passed H.Con.Res. 25 on March 21st.

Go on TV and talk about how Harry Reid and the Democrats haven't passed a budget since...whenever.

They finally passed one this year. The reason why there has not been a budget conference committee is because (1) Senate Democrats refuse to agree to the terms put forward by House Republicans and (2) Senate Republicans blocked Reid's request to form a budget conference committee.

Posted by: Miss80sBaby at September 24, 2013 06:46 PM (YjDyJ)

406 Maybe it would be better to give bho every last cent he wants x2. The economy is going to hell anyway and this would hasten it. When we reach the bottom than there is only one way to go and that is up, and besides then we would also be rid of those pesky progressive/socialists/communists.

Posted by: REGGIEM at September 24, 2013 07:44 PM (qJN4i)

407 "Supposedly you can't even defund the Medicaid expansion portion of it because that funding was made mandatory. "

It's mandatory right up until when it isn't. Congress can undo whatever it does.

That how laws work, you know.

Posted by: GalosGann at September 24, 2013 07:52 PM (vW1n3)

408 "I just want our side to come down to reality, start thinking strategically, and to stop expecting the impossible then getting pissed off when they don't get it.
The enemy is on the other side of the isle.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 24, 2013 06:34 PM"

No. You moderate liberal Republicans are the enemy too. Yes I mean it. If you think the Democrat agenda is a "reality" to work with, you're a liberal. The fact that you're unhappy about it makes you a moderate liberal.

The con that Republicans would be Jack Kemp on devil red if only they had more votes in Congress and the White House, was exploded in 2005.

As for thinking strategically, we're the only ones in the game who think Obama can lose. The GOP has written off the idea of winning anything, which is why it snarls at people who want to try. Shut up, do nothing, punt to the next election. It's unacceptable, by which I mean, I won't act like I accept it.

Your crew is unfit to serve, and if we have to suffer the Democrats for a while to flush them out of office, so be it. It's not as if the Democrats are going to make life so sweet that nobody will want to oppose them.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at September 25, 2013 08:50 AM (B7iEg)

409 After being a Republican for 35 years, I switched my voter registration to No Party yesterday. It seems to better reflect reality right about now.

Posted by: BigTentNoMo at September 25, 2013 02:49 PM (QqFev)

410 I disagree that it was pointless.

Yes, it did not stop Obamacare dead in its tracks nor did it achieve defunding. Neither of those are possible with Reid and McConell in charge.

It gained headlines. Built our arguments. Brought attention to individual stories and the inequity of some receiving delays vs. the rest of us. Obamacare is going to hit alot of us hard starting NEXT week. This week is the time to make a big show about what it is about to happen to them. Otherwise the liberals will have their media repeating their lies all week unhindered.

We won't win policy objectives until we start winning the narrative, and sometimes that takes making a big show of things when you have no power.

It would be more successful without those in our own party biting at our heels.

Posted by: Seymour Butts at September 26, 2013 11:04 AM (ETaa8)






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