"Conservative" Amnesty Supporter Jen Rubin: We Need Amnesty Because US Wages are "Artificially High"

Um, wow.

It is ironic that the right-wingers who argue against protectionism, against the minimum wage, against unions (which inflate wage rates) and against Obamacare want to keep domestic wages artificially high by restricting the labor market (e.g. keeping out immigrant workers). That effort is not only inconsistent with free market principles, but, according to stacks of research, it also is empirically dubious.

...

In sum, if you believe in free markets, you shouldn’t advocate artificially restricting the U.S. labor market and you should consider the market-driven behavior of a raft of industries. But then again, the anti-immigration forces believe many things that aren’t so. That is the prerogative I suppose, but they shouldn’t invoke Friedman when doing so, and lawmakers should understand what they are saying isn’t supported by evidence.

Rubin is one of the most dishonest supporters of amnesty out there (and on most things she writes about) but this is really something.


She links to some articles from Libertarian and liberal sources to back her claim but they don't say anything about US wages being high, artificially or otherwise. They make a dubious claim that flooding the market with millions of new legal workers won't drive down wages because...magic.

One of the articles she links to (they aren't "research" papers, just articles summing up the pro-amnesty case) came out in July of 2009. I sort of recall something happening in the interim....the economy crashed, unemployment skyrocketed and much personal wealth evaporated but I guess none of that changes anything.

Personally, I don't think wages are too high (nor should they be made higher by the government) but I also don't see anything wrong with favoring Americans over the rest of the world when it comes to competing for jobs in this country.

The idea that a country exists mainly or solely to create a libertarian dream of a perfect free market is nonsense. All countries favor their citizens over others in numerous ways and rightly so. I, and most conservative s I know and have read, don’t think the government should penalize people for freely using their capital across the globe but that’s not to say the government should be in the business of importing an unending supply of foreign workers to compete with citizens in the name of economic freedom or helping companies keep labor costs down.

No matter what Team Amnesty claims, when supply (workers) is high, price (wages) goes down.

While building her Libertarian straw man, Rubin sort of nods at but never admits something very important….you can’t have this idealized (and never actually implemented) international labor market while at the same time providing a massive welfare state. If you want to talk about unfettered access to the American labor market for everyone around the world, you also better be talking about excluding those new comers from access to any element of social spending (including schools and health care). This is simply not on the table.

As for the politics of this, it’s an awful place to be for anyone who is a Republican or a conservative. If you want to cement the idea in Americans that the GOP only cares about the “rich”, then place yourself at the head of the group demanding that US companies have an nearly unlimited supply of cheap workers to push up profits while dragging wages down. That’s the economics of amnesty and it stinks.

Posted by: DrewM. at 01:44 PM



Comments

1 Foist?

Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 03, 2013 01:45 PM (wtvvX)

2 I'm all for free markets.

Freebaggers, not so musch...

Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 03, 2013 01:46 PM (wtvvX)

3 *much*

Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 03, 2013 01:46 PM (wtvvX)

4 The WSJ greedheads are hell bent on proving Lenin right.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 03, 2013 01:47 PM (ujg0T)

5 ****checks handbook****

Sarah Palin is stupid and shoots immigrants from helecopters

Posted by: Navycopjoe at June 03, 2013 01:48 PM (0XV8C)

6 Let Mexico open THEIR borders first.

You know, as a show of "good faith"...

Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 03, 2013 01:48 PM (wtvvX)

7 Slave owners liked cheap labor, too. My friend, who lost his job in construction because hiring illegals was cheaper, not so much.

Posted by: kathysaysso at June 03, 2013 01:48 PM (6H6o8)

8 We're going to continue to fling spreadsheets at each other in this thread, aren't we?

Posted by: BCochran1981 at June 03, 2013 01:49 PM (da5Wo)

9 "Shut up!" she said, to definitively and winningly end the argument!

Posted by: Hrothgar at June 03, 2013 01:50 PM (Cnqmv)

10 To borrow a hook from Amity Schlaes, the unemployed American worker is 'the Forgotten Man' of the Amnesty debate.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at June 03, 2013 01:50 PM (QXlbZ)

11 OK, let's see if my magic ability to spawn a new thread by posting in the current one works all day.

Alakhazam!

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at June 03, 2013 01:50 PM (ZWvOb)

12 8 better than boogers

Posted by: Navycopjoe at June 03, 2013 01:50 PM (0XV8C)

13 We're going to continue to fling spreadsheets at each other in this thread, aren't we?

I'll pick up the gauntlet with my last post from the old thread:

FYI, Here's an interesting link on average profit margins by industry.
I'm not saying its gospel, but its probably in the ballpark.


http://tinyurl.com/nlrwbp

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at June 03, 2013 01:51 PM (8ZskC)

14 We should really all learn another language so we'll be more like Europe!

Posted by: Hrothgar at June 03, 2013 01:51 PM (Cnqmv)

15 "No matter what Team Amnesty claims, when supply (workers) is high, price (wages) goes down."

Links no sources (not even articles let alone journals...)

Posted by: ASDF at June 03, 2013 01:51 PM (x2bTX)

16 This is even worse than sales tax proposals that add a sales tax without positively forbidding an income tax.

At least that sounds good on paper. Who the hell is going to run on “immigration reform, because your wages are too damn high”?

Posted by: Ace Runner Stephen Price Blair at June 03, 2013 01:51 PM (QF8uk)

17 Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at June 03, 2013 01:51 PM (8ZskC)

Cross-correlating that with campaign contribution amounts, by party, would be very interesting.

Posted by: Hrothgar at June 03, 2013 01:52 PM (Cnqmv)

18 Importing millions of low-skilled, benefit-dependent workers will improve the American economy because, science!

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at June 03, 2013 01:52 PM (8ZskC)

19 o.0

This is industrial-grade stupid.


If she thinks that wages are "artificially high", then she can start by having the minimum wage busted back down to the $5.15 it was when I was in college in the 90s to pay LEGAL Americans rather than letting in a bunch of illegals to work for cash on the barrelhead.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at June 03, 2013 01:52 PM (zA7Zp)

20 If you want to talk about unfettered access to the American labor market for everyone around the world, you also better be talking about excluding those new comers from access to any element of social spending

Funny how that gets left unexamined. So fill me in: do many illegal aliens now eat at the trough of the welfare state?

Rubio swears up and down that this will never happen.

*facepalm*

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 01:53 PM (xw77v)

21 I mean, it sounds like Rubin just wants to remove that middle step between, letting more Democrats in, Republicans lose elections. She wants to lose elections right now.

Posted by: Ace Runner Stephen Price Blair at June 03, 2013 01:53 PM (QF8uk)

22 > Links no sources (not even articles let alone journals...)

Oh sure, because real world observation by anyone with more than two fucking braincells doesn't show this as accurate. Ask the guys who used to be able to raise a family roofing or sheetrocking before the illegals showed up about it.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at June 03, 2013 01:53 PM (ZWvOb)

23 Ya know, I've recently developed this walnut sized growth in my throat...someone get me some agua. Pronto.


Posted by: Marco Rubio at June 03, 2013 01:53 PM (Cs2tJ)

24 When did "amnesty" for law-breaking foreign nationals become synonymous with "immigration" and "U.S. labor market?"

Posted by: Fritz at June 03, 2013 01:54 PM (G9Mmf)

25 If she thinks that wages are "artificially high", then she can start by having the minimum wage busted back down

Yeah, not likely. Rubin, remember, is a former labor lawyer and was educated at Berkeley.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 01:54 PM (xw77v)

26 I agree with her let's open the borders. But first no welfare/free healthcare.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at June 03, 2013 01:54 PM (wrS2o)

27 "No matter what Team Amnesty claims, when supply (workers) is high, price (wages) goes down."

Links no sources (not even articles let alone journals...)

Posted by: ASDF


Are you seriously challenging Drew to provide a source for the law of supply and demand?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at June 03, 2013 01:54 PM (ujux6)

28 24 When did "amnesty" for law-breaking foreign nationals become synonymous with "immigration" and "U.S. labor market?"

---

When limosine liberals got a taste for driving over to Home Depot to hire a bunch of illegals to work on their houses.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at June 03, 2013 01:54 PM (zA7Zp)

29 14 We should really all learn another language so we'll be more like Europe!
Posted by: Hrothgar at June 03, 2013 01:51 PM (Cnqmv)



We keep meaning to learn English, but had to wash our hair that night.

Posted by: Illegal Immigrants at June 03, 2013 01:55 PM (ND9u8)

30 23 Ya know, I've recently developed this walnut sized growth in my throat...someone get me some agua. Pronto.

Posted by: Marco Rubio at June 03, 2013 01:53 PM (Cs2tJ)



No, that's Schumer's dick.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at June 03, 2013 01:55 PM (da5Wo)

31 25 If she thinks that wages are "artificially high", then she can start by having the minimum wage busted back down

Yeah, not likely. Rubin, remember, is a former labor lawyer and was educated at Berkeley.

---

Didn't say she'd actually do it, but the stupidity of her statement is that labor costs will go down if there is a flood of new workers.

Government regulations actually prohibit that on the kinds of jobs these people would be working.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at June 03, 2013 01:55 PM (zA7Zp)

32 So if you are for amnesty you are against poor foreigners that are in our country illegally and you are for native Americans being poorer.

That clinches it for me.

Posted by: Who do you fucking represent? at June 03, 2013 01:55 PM (dSE0q)

33
Artificially high?

That won't do. You should try my 'Full Immersion' technique.

Posted by: Barakhenaten I at June 03, 2013 01:55 PM (Icowq)

34 So, free markets mean there are no laws?

Why does the ability to create an English sentence relieve journalists of any responsibility to think about them?

Posted by: t-bird at June 03, 2013 01:56 PM (FcR7P)

35 24. That's a great question
Let me check the hand book....

You're RACIST

Posted by: Navycopjoe at June 03, 2013 01:56 PM (0XV8C)

36 so i guess she doesn't mind several families living in one home next door Because Everyone in the family will have to work to pay rent and no one family could afford Rent (which hasn't gone done btw)

so she wants wage control but downward instead of upward?

can we do that to housing control, and rent control, how about food price control?

Posted by: willow at June 03, 2013 01:56 PM (nqBYe)

37 Ann Coulter had an interesting article about how the country's immigration policies have altered over the years.

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2013-05-22.html

Nothing most morons don't already know, but it could help in those debates with family members who persist in remaining on the dark side.

Posted by: kathysaysso at June 03, 2013 01:56 PM (6H6o8)

38 "Links no sources (not even articles let alone journals...)"

Try "Adam Smith and His Amazing Invisible Pimp-Hand"

Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 03, 2013 01:56 PM (wtvvX)

39 30 23 Ya know, I've recently developed this walnut sized growth in my throat...someone get me some agua. Pronto.

Posted by: Marco Rubio at June 03, 2013 01:53 PM (Cs2tJ)

No, that's Schumer's dick.


Walnut sized? So you're saying Chuck is erect.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 01:56 PM (xw77v)

40 Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 01:53 PM (xw77v)


Abuse of the welfare system by an uncontrolled nflux of immigrants will never happen because they will all aspire to the American dream (of fundamentally transforming America)!

Posted by: Joker Tsarnaev at June 03, 2013 01:56 PM (Cnqmv)

41 After the Boston Marathon bombings, there is a lot of immigration reform needed. None of it in this shitburger of an amnesty catastrophe.

Posted by: Beagle at June 03, 2013 01:56 PM (sOtz/)

42 I will gladly swap incomes with Rubin & then we'll see if she still wants to complain how high the wages are.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 03, 2013 01:57 PM (t+DWU)

43 Rubin is one of the most dishonest supporters of amnesty out there (and on most things she writes about) but this is really something.

----------------------------

Oh, I don't know about that. I think Gabe gave her a pretty good run for her money on the AoS podcast.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 03, 2013 01:57 PM (CJjw5)

44 Methinks she presumes that the wave of illegal immigrants getting amnesty will be skilled or semi-skilled workers, thereby driving the wages of citizens and legal immigrants down.

Really Jen? Really?

Posted by: John P. Squibob at June 03, 2013 01:57 PM (kqqGm)

45 41 After the Boston Marathon bombings, there is a lot of immigration reform needed. None of it in this shitburger of an amnesty catastrophe.

---

Which is why I figured that this horseshit was dead for the time being.

Having a family of Chechen terrorists living off the government dole in Massachusetts blow up a bunch of people doesn't play well for "let more of them in."

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at June 03, 2013 01:58 PM (zA7Zp)

46 I am certain Jennifer's wages are too high. Metaphysically certain.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 01:58 PM (xw77v)

47
Links no sources (not even articles let alone journals...)

ASDF at June 03, 2013 01:51 PM (x2bTX)


-------------

I'll vouch for Drew.

Posted by: F. Hayek at June 03, 2013 01:58 PM (tVWQB)

48 I think her theory boils down to: amnesty will put the bulk of the remaining workers in the US into the range of miminum wage, so the government can set just about everyone's income.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at June 03, 2013 01:58 PM (QA8q2)

49
I'll vouch for Drew.


----------

Me too.

Posted by: A Smith at June 03, 2013 01:58 PM (tVWQB)

50 <i>I agree with her let's open the borders. But first no welfare/free healthcare.</i>


And when the illegal aliens show up at the emergency rooms, and their kids crowd the public schools, you are *really* going to turn them away? Really?

If conservatism isn't rooted in the real world, we are no better than Leftist fools.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 03, 2013 01:59 PM (ujg0T)

51
I'll vouch for Drew.


-------

And MEEEEE!

Posted by: M Friedman at June 03, 2013 01:59 PM (tVWQB)

52 well this almost sounds like

'to be fair'

but then i ask myself , to whom?

Posted by: willow at June 03, 2013 01:59 PM (nqBYe)

53 Jen Rubin is the female version of Milky Loads. She is about as conservative as Harry Reid.

Posted by: Vic at June 03, 2013 01:59 PM (lZvxr)

54 Wages being driven down wouldn't be a problem since it would be accompanies by a decrease in the price of goods (just as union-driven inflated wages results in an increase in the price of goods). The problem with amnesty is simple--and serious: people with surnames like mine, unfortunately, tend to be statists and ethnic nationalists, and we don't need them voting. I wish it weren't so, but it is.

Beginning of story. End of story.

Posted by: Mr Estrada at June 03, 2013 01:59 PM (5piqN)

55 I can think of at least 5 major deleterious effects "comprehensive" immigration reform will visit upon our society.

Anyone arguing in favor of it is either clueless or has melicious intent.

Jen Rubin is not clueless.

Posted by: kreplach at June 03, 2013 01:59 PM (pOhSg)

56 This is why I left the Republican Party: the principles they stand for are as contradictory and hypocritical, in their own way, as the so called Democrats. You're fine with price controls on labor, but not capital, and the Democrats are in favor of both.

The majority of the people can, through government, impose conditions on citizenship, but they cannot under even the most expansive interpretation of the Constitution decree that peaceful people cannot trade with other peaceful people.

You can tell illegals they can't vote, that they can't suck on the welfare teat, but you have no legal or moral right to tell them they cannot work and live in the United States. The federal government does not have the authority to regulate anyone's employment or commerce.

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (zWwaU)

57 When limosine liberals got a taste for driving over to Home Depot to hire a bunch of illegals to work on their houses.


I always laugh at that. You are going to hire someone to work on your McMansion, who will never be able to afford to live in one, & you expect quality?

Posted by: rickb223 at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (t+DWU)

58 Horchata.

Posted by: Mr. McGuire at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (OTuj4)

59
I'll vouch for Drew.


-------------

Hell, I'm so liberal that not only did I predate the term "liberal," but I'm paying child support for the term...and *I* vouch for Drew on this.

Posted by: JK Galbraith at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (tVWQB)

60 "If you want to cement the idea in Americans that the GOP only cares about the “rich”, then place yourself at the head of the group demanding that US companies have an nearly unlimited supply of cheap workers to push up profits while dragging wages down. That’s the economics of amnesty and it stinks."

The Republicans think they are providing a taxpayer subsidised (and compliant) workforce to their masters in the chambers of commerce and corporate boardrooms (the latter will continue to vote Democrat anyway). The Democrats think they are importing a peasant army to serve as cannon fodder in their socialist revolution.

I think they are both right. Absolutely everybody wants to see this amnesty bill passed.....except the American people.

Posted by: Rufus T. Firefly at June 03, 2013 02:02 PM (aOnaK)

61 57 When limosine liberals got a taste for driving over to Home Depot to hire a bunch of illegals to work on their houses.


I always laugh at that. You are going to hire someone to work on your McMansion, who will never be able to afford to live in one, & you expect quality?

---

I didn't say they weren't penny-smart and pound-foolish.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at June 03, 2013 02:02 PM (zA7Zp)

62 Can't believe any conservatives could be so blind not to see where Amnesty leads us, as a country and as the Republican party (finished). Willful blindness.

The latest Ulsterman "White House Insider" post has WHI saying that Dems are "just taking the rope and wrapping it around their [pro-Amnesty Republicans] stupid f*cking necks and grinning and grinning while they’re doing it." You don't have to believe WHI actually exists to see how true that description is.

Posted by: Lizzy at June 03, 2013 02:02 PM (NDNbv)

63 That really is dishonest. Why amnesty? Why not no amnesty with open (but secured) borders then? That is certainly more fair to US citizens and truly legal immigrants that giving them amnesty. Let them come on over, work, and tax their asses. Let the non-citizen pay for the privilege of getting to work here. We owe them nothing more than that. US first.

Posted by: dogfish at June 03, 2013 02:02 PM (nsOJa)

64 You can tell illegals they can't vote, that they can't suck on the welfare teat, but you have no legal or moral right to tell them they cannot work and live in the United States. The federal government does not have the authority to regulate anyone's employment or commerce.
Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (zWwaU)



But what it can do, is enforce the laws, including who is a citizen and who isn't. And there is every right to tell someone who broke the law in coming here to begin with "GTFO, you don't get to benefit from our country while breaking our laws."

Posted by: BCochran1981 at June 03, 2013 02:02 PM (da5Wo)

65 I'll vouch for Drew.


-------------

Hell, I'm so
liberal that not only did I predate the term "liberal," but I'm paying
child support for the term...and *I* vouch for Drew on this.


Only if the government primes the pump first.

Posted by: J M Keynes at June 03, 2013 02:02 PM (kqqGm)

66 Links no sources (not even articles let alone journals...)

ASDF at June 03, 2013 01:51 PM (x2bTX)

I'll make you a deal. You pick up any economics textbook written by a non-communist and if you can't figure out from a cursory reading of it that what DrewM said is axiomatic, then I'll pay for the book.

Actually, I won't, because that will be proof that you are profoundly, irrevocably stupid and are probably going to die of malnutrition because you can't figure out how to open the refrigerator.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at June 03, 2013 02:02 PM (O6Tmi)

67 You can tell illegals they can't vote, that they can't suck on the welfare teat, but you have no legal or moral right to tell them they cannot work and live in the United States. The federal government does not have the authority to regulate anyone's employment or commerce.
Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (zWwaU)
-
Ever hear of trespassing laws?

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at June 03, 2013 02:02 PM (QA8q2)

68 <i>We should really all learn another language so we'll be more like Europe!</i>

It worked for us!

Posted by: Yugoslavia at June 03, 2013 02:03 PM (ujg0T)

69 You can tell illegals they can't vote, that they can't suck on the
welfare teat, but you have no legal or moral right to tell them they
cannot work and live in the United States.


Ummm, no.

Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 03, 2013 02:03 PM (wtvvX)

70 Posted by: rickb223 at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (t+DWU)



ˇAll carpenters/roofers/drywallers/etc are created equal, mi amigo!

Posted by: Hrothgar at June 03, 2013 02:03 PM (Cnqmv)

71 stacks of research > binders full of women.

Sigh...

Posted by: akula_51 at June 03, 2013 02:03 PM (YesJa)

72
Wages being driven down wouldn't be a problem since it would be accompanies by a decrease in the price of goods (just as union-driven inflated wages results in an increase in the price of goods).

-------

Except prices are sticky and they don't come down nearly as easily as they go up.


Posted by: @JohnTant at June 03, 2013 02:03 PM (tVWQB)

73 14 We should really all learn another language so we'll be more like Europe!
Posted by: Hrothgar at June 03, 2013 01:51 PM (Cnqmv)

Said the SCOAMF aka Mr. Cinco de Quattro.

Posted by: baldilocks at June 03, 2013 02:04 PM (Su0W2)

74 Who is Jen Rubin and why should I give a fat dumpster rat's left nut?

Posted by: maddogg at June 03, 2013 02:04 PM (OlN4e)

75 > You can tell illegals they can't vote, that they can't suck on the welfare teat, but you have no legal or moral right to tell them they cannot work and live in the United States. The federal government does not have the authority to regulate anyone's employment or commerce.

Borders and fences and cops with guns say you're a fucking retard. Catch them and deport them. Give the nice sweet anal sechs to people caught employing them. They will go the fuck home. It's not rocket science.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at June 03, 2013 02:04 PM (ZWvOb)

76 As for the politics of this, it’s an awful place to be for anyone who is
a Republican or a conservative. If you want to cement the idea in
Americans that the GOP only cares about the “rich”, then place yourself
at the head of the group demanding that US companies have an nearly
unlimited supply of cheap workers to push up profits while dragging
wages down. That’s the economics of amnesty and it stinks.


thank you Drew for saying this better than i could .

Posted by: willow at June 03, 2013 02:04 PM (nqBYe)

77 No matter what Team Amnesty claims, when supply (workers) is high, price (wages) goes down.

If we really want to depress wages by flooding the supply, we've got a shit-ton of native-born low-skilled American citizens being paid by the government to sit around dead cities not working, instead of moving to areas where low-skilled workers are in demand (as low-skilled American workers did throughout the 19th and 20th centuries).

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at June 03, 2013 02:04 PM (ZKzrr)

78 43 I think Gabe gave her a pretty good run for her money on the AoS podcast.

+infinity

Posted by: akula_51 at June 03, 2013 02:04 PM (YesJa)

79 You can tell illegals they can't vote, that they can't suck on the welfare teat, but you have no legal or moral right to tell them they cannot work and live in the United States.

-----------------------------

Dead fucking wrong, chum.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 03, 2013 02:04 PM (CJjw5)

80 Ever hear of trespassing laws?
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at

You do not own the whole country. who I choose to sell a home to or hire is none of your business or the government's business.

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:05 PM (zWwaU)

81 >>>Said the SCOAMF aka Mr. Cinco de Quattro.

I'm learning Austrian as we speak.

Posted by: Fritz at June 03, 2013 02:05 PM (G9Mmf)

82
Said the SCOAMF aka Mr. Cinco de Quattro

---

Or his stage name, Chupa Las Vergas.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at June 03, 2013 02:05 PM (zA7Zp)

83 Jen Rubin is David Brooks in a dress. But with less credibility.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:05 PM (xw77v)

84 uh...isn't the fact that minimum wage is enforced by law (the reason I, as a citizen, cannot legally work for or pay others at a lower rate) the only proof needed? What's more artificial than an arbitrary amount we can set at any rate we want?

(btw, remember when conservatives focused on opposing such artificial mandates rather than getting caught up in the symptoms such artificialities naturally produced (like the illegal immigrant labor such laws, market forces and consumer expectations make inevitable)? Guess both parties are beholden big labor, and everyone who's legally employed is really just a union member now (at least those lucky enough to be worth employing).
Party of Lincoln's new battlecry: 'Down with Free Labor, Viva Cesar Chavez and artificial wages, Forever!'

Posted by: 2nd tier citoyen at June 03, 2013 02:06 PM (X5WE/)

85
Slave owners liked cheap labor, too. My friend, who lost his job in
construction because hiring illegals was cheaper, not so much.


Posted by: kathysaysso at June 03, 2013 01:48 PM (6H6o

Slave labor was not cheap. In 1861 the cost of a slave ran the equivalent of $50,000 today. You had that as an initial capital cost and then on top of it you had the maintenance costs of food, housing, and clothes. This is why most large plantations of the day ran in constant debt.

Posted by: Vic at June 03, 2013 02:06 PM (lZvxr)

86 Dead fucking wrong, chum.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff

Well, the government does a lot of unconstitutional things.

but you know, shred that old piece of paper. It's like over a 100 years old and stuff. Who needs it?

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:06 PM (zWwaU)

87 you shouldn’t advocate artificially restricting the U.S. labor market

How many millions of people are mysteriously missing from the labor force?! How many are "disabled", and how many on foodstamps, and how many millions of illegals do we already have?

Seems to me the US labor market isn't lacking for people.

Posted by: t-bird at June 03, 2013 02:06 PM (FcR7P)

88 Let the non-citizen pay for the privilege of getting to work here. We owe them nothing more than that. US first.
Posted by: dogfish at June 03, 2013 02:02 PM (nsOJa)Most of them would be happy to do so

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at June 03, 2013 02:06 PM (R8hU8)

89 You do not own the whole country. who I choose to sell a home to or hire is none of your business or the government's business.
Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:05 PM (zWwaU)



Don't like the laws? Change them. Until then, STFU dunce.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at June 03, 2013 02:06 PM (da5Wo)

90 We don't have to tell illegals they can't vote - we just tell them that they can get driver's licenses, and then - oopsie!- Motor Voter laws automatically register them to vote. If they just happen to vote (wink, wink) we can't stop them.
The system is broken, you guys, what are you gonna do? Just let them in and grant them whatever they would have acquired illegally.a

Posted by: Democrats at June 03, 2013 02:06 PM (NDNbv)

91 Borders and fences and cops with guns say you're a fucking retard. Catch them and deport them. Give the nice sweet anal sechs to people caught employing them. They will go the fuck home. It's not rocket science.


Or you can let legal citizens do it.
(If the authorities refuse)

Posted by: rickb223 at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (t+DWU)

92 The federal government does not have the authority to regulate anyone's employment or commerce.

That hasn't been true in any of our lifetimes.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (ZKzrr)

93 Hell, many, many years ago I took a Sociology class in college. Even then the legal (Hispanic) immigrants were bitching about the illegals working for next to nothing, keeping wages down.

And now that I think about it, it may very well have been Cesar Chavez making that point.

Posted by: HH at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (XXwdv)

94
Posted by: Vic at June 03, 2013 02:06 PM (lZvxr)
Irish labor was a good bit cheaper.

Posted by: maddogg at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (OlN4e)

95 You can tell illegals they can't vote, that they can't suck on the
welfare teat, but you have no legal or moral right to tell them they
cannot work and live in the United States. The federal government does
not have the authority to regulate anyone's employment or commerce.

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (zWwaU)




Wow. The other 195 nations on Earth will be surprised to learn that they can't control who enters their countries.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (8ZskC)

96 You can tell illegals they can't vote, that they can't suck on the welfare teat, but you have no legal or moral right to tell them they cannot work and live in the United States. The federal government does not have the authority to regulate anyone's employment or commerce.

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (zWwaU)

I beg to differ.

Posted by: The Commerce Clause at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (6cEN2)

97 This is nothing but a diversion from the real problem. And the real problem is ILLEGAL immigrants flooding the markets pushing wages lower and then DEMANDING that we pay them welfare if they can't find work.

THAT'S THE FUCKING PROBLEM, BITCH!

Posted by: Soona at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (B0p1w)

98 Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:05 PM (zWwaU)

Fine. Hire anyone you want. Then the government will come and arrest them for having broken the law by entering this country illegally.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (O6Tmi)

99 > You do not own the whole country. who I choose to sell a home to or hire is none of your business or the government's business.

You're not very bright are you? Either that or you need to tell us all what color your big moppy troll hair is.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (ZWvOb)

100 All living things have boundaries, without them they die.

This is empirical reality, one which no manner of human volition can change.

Posted by: RiverC at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (El+h4)

101 Anecdotal but another candid conversation with an illegal yesterday reveals once again they consider Mexico (in this case) their home. Every conversation I've ever had with an illegal has been the same way. They aren't here to support the US; they are here for the money. Nada mas.

Posted by: dogfish at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (nsOJa)

102 So Econ 101 taught us that as labor pools increase, wages increase, too? I must've missed that day.

I understand Rubin will be teaching us the following economics truism in her next column:

Fast. Cheap. Well. Pick three.

It's like she's a columnist with no economics experience whatsoever.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (eHIJJ)

103 Question: Are you anti-Amnesty or anti-Immigration? Is there no room left in America for legalized immigration?

Also, are not Rubin's and Drew's assertions (that wages are artificially high, or not..depending on viewpoint) completely pointless? This is not a hypothetical... if Amnesty, then this '____' These people are already here. It's not like they aren't already affecting the market as Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at June 03, 2013 01:53 PM (ZWvOb) indicates.

Posted by: ASDF at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (x2bTX)

104 She creates the strawman of 'right wingers' being against immigration.

As pointed out because we are forced too, every debate about immigration reform is prefaced with the statement that we 'right wingers' do not have a problem with reasonable legal immigration and in fact, want the process to have less red tape.

Jen Rubin is just another blind , inside the beltway talking head that thinks she smarter than the rubes outside of D.C.

On a side note, her support of Romney did more harm than good precisely because of thatmindset. How do you say thanks but no thanks if you're Romney. Its a catch 22.

Posted by: polynikes at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (m2CN7)

105 I would think making a huge class of people no longer having to 'work in the shadows' would mean their wages would go UP, not DOWN.

Posted by: zsasz at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (MMC8r)

106 You can tell illegals they can't vote, that they can't suck on the welfare teat, but you have no legal or moral right to tell them they cannot work and live in the United States. The federal government does not have the authority to regulate anyone's employment or commerce.

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (zWwaU)

I too beg to differ.

Posted by: The Immigration and Naturalization Clause of The US Constitution at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (6cEN2)

107 So Gabe wants to see Republicans never win the White House ever again? Because all them newly minted voters ain't gwanna turn GOP, if the history of Hispanic voting after every recent amnesty bill is any lesson.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (xw77v)

108 As for the politics of this, it’s an awful place to be for anyone who is
a Republican or a conservative. If you want to cement the idea in
Americans that the GOP only cares about the “rich”, then place yourself
at the head of the group demanding that US companies have an nearly
unlimited unfettered supply of cheap workers to push up profits while dragging
wages down. That’s the economics of amnesty and it stinks.


FIFY

Posted by: Jay "Bagdad Bob" Carney, FOTPOTUS at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (kqqGm)

109 Cut my wages 5% as long as you shoot everyone crossing the border illegally. Sounds like an OK trade to me. Something tells me the Leftists won't take that deal. We might as well give voting rights to Mexican citizens, as long as they never enter the US. That's a trade the Leftists will take. They care not for the Mexicans, just their votes.

Posted by: dfbaskwill at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (71LDo)

110 The government controls immigration. It always has. Just because we have had open immigration in the past, when we needed people to settle and develop the land, does not mean we have open immigration now.

People are free to GET IN THE FUCKING LINE to become a citizen.

They do NOT GET TO JUMP THE FUCKING LINE.

Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 03, 2013 02:09 PM (wtvvX)

111
Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (zWwaU)

I'm really curious where you studied constitutional law.
Because I'm not sure this is even close to accurate.

There are lots of reasons you can declare that someone who isn't on the record as being in this country is not eligible to work in this country.
Heck, I'd imagine even "provide for the common defense" could be applied to this.

Posted by: tsrblke at June 03, 2013 02:09 PM (GaqMa)

112 She creates the strawman of 'right wingers' being against immigration.



Funny how amnesty proponents always forget to mention that it's ILLEGAL immigration that the right opposes.

But, racism.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at June 03, 2013 02:09 PM (8ZskC)

113 nearly unfettered. These people aren't quite not slaves.

Posted by: RiverC at June 03, 2013 02:09 PM (El+h4)

114 <i> This is why I left the Republican Party: the principles they stand for are as contradictory and hypocritical, in their own way, as the so called Democrats. You're fine with price controls on labor, but not capital, and the Democrats are in favor of both.
The majority of the people can, through government, impose conditions on citizenship, but they cannot under even the most expansive interpretation of the Constitution decree that peaceful people cannot trade with other peaceful people.

You can tell illegals they can't vote, that they can't suck on the welfare teat, but you have no legal or moral right to tell them they cannot work and live in the United States. The federal government does not have the authority to regulate anyone's employment or commerce.</i>


Wrong. Article I, Section 8:"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises....To regulate Commerce with foreign NationsTo establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization...."

Posted by: Yugoslavia at June 03, 2013 02:10 PM (ujg0T)

115 Irish labor was a good bit cheaper.

Posted by: maddogg at June 03, 2013 02:07 PM (OlN4e)

As a matter of fact they were. All the hiring people had to do was pay maintenance costs and those were not much higher, if at all, than that of the slaves.

Posted by: Vic at June 03, 2013 02:10 PM (lZvxr)

116 Close up the UN jihadi importation (refugee resettlement) program.

Start ackowledging deadly sharia oppression and discrimination in Muslim nations against Christians for the purpose of asylum.

Stop admitting jihadis 'persecuted' by other nations.

This all requires a jihad threat doctrine unfortunately. We would have to infringe on the Muslim First Amendment right to slay us and be slain for Allah.

Posted by: Beagle at June 03, 2013 02:10 PM (sOtz/)

117 You know who the best Americans are? Non-Americans.

Posted by: Team Amnesty at June 03, 2013 02:10 PM (eHIJJ)

118 My lefty MSNBC-addicted dad would just love this article. Proof that "conservatives" want only to destroy the American worker by importing illegals. My dad hates illegal immigration, and already blames strictly Republicans for off-shoring American jobs. He'd love to read that Jen Rubin wants American wages to go down!

Really, if the Republicans came out strongly against amnesty, they might actually woo voters like my dad who loves Democrats but hates illegals and Republicans, and blames all of American's job problems on the GOP.

Posted by: Pyrocles at June 03, 2013 02:10 PM (cv5Iw)

119 This goes to the very nature of Government.... What is it FOR?

Is it there to create cheap labor? or its it there to protect those who created it?

What some don't understand is that there are a lot of America First Libertarians.

I personally do not advocate to free others, in other countries, because that is THEIR business.... and truthfully we are getting farther and farther from the Ideal HERE, to tell them how to live...

Note, that we are the ONLY country on the Earth that hasa Libertarian movement AT ALL.... ie one that supports Rights with the Government being Referee (vice anarchy)...

And the reason we have that movement is because of the History our Founders gave us....

The US Government is not a thing... its not a entity... it HAS no RIGHTS... it is something WE created to help US... not OTHERS...

The fact is that we have TOO much Immigration IMO... over 1 million LEGAL immigrants a year means that over a generation (30 years) we have 10% of people here who were not born here...

Then add in illegals??? and they are changing our culture... not joining it.

Posted by: Romeo13 at June 03, 2013 02:10 PM (lZBBB)

120 I am a libertarian. The libertarian position is that immigration should be super easy... but also that the government should give no benefits and the tax rate should be very low.

I think all of the above, together, works. But taking just the super easy immigration part and leaving all the entitlements in place? Bad, bad idea.

And while I am a libertarian, simple common sense suggests that you need to fix the entitlements part before you open the floodgates on immigration. There is a sane order to do things. Once entitlements are slashed and the taxes are low, *then* make it super easy for people to legally immigrate.

BTW the biggest problem libertarians have is that people cannot imagine giving up all the government benefits. Even if you tell them that the tax burden will fall tremendously, they will be going "wait, school lunches won't be subsidized anymore?"

Back in the 1800s the US government was much smaller than it is now, paid out almost nothing in benefits, and people were well off. Now people cannot imagine being well off unless the government gives them stuff.

Posted by: mr_jack at June 03, 2013 02:11 PM (TMG3G)

121 They do NOT GET TO JUMP THE FUCKING LINE.


Lines are racist.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at June 03, 2013 02:11 PM (8ZskC)

122 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:12 PM (/PCJa)

123 Question: Are you anti-Amnesty or anti-Immigration? Is there no room left in America for legalized immigration?
----------------------

Dude, you DO realize that the United States has a process in place for immigrating here legally, don't you? We have commenters here that have done so.

Goddamnit, do we have to provide you with the basic fucking civics lessons that your public school should have? No one has time to go all the way back to your childhood and teach you the basic shit that you were too fucking lazy to learn.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 03, 2013 02:12 PM (CJjw5)

124 >It is ironic that the right-wingers <

Actually it's ironic a "conservative" would start with that kind of a pejorative. Who exactly are these "right-wingers" she speaks of?

Anyway, the entire issue of amnesty is not a philosophical or academic endeavor. It's a question of sovereign rights and privileges. Individuals do not transcend the laws of a sovereign nation and therefore this has nothing to do with the global labor market.

No person who is not a citizen of this country and who has broken the laws of this nation by illegally entering it should be granted any right or privilege.

By her construct, China's market is akin to slave labor at their wages. It's like Oliver Twist- only in Beijing. Maybe she should illegally cross into China and start demanding higher wages. You know, to bring them in line with global standards.

See how that works out. Dope.

Posted by: Marcus at June 03, 2013 02:12 PM (GGCsk)

125 Political hacks should never try doing economics.
Paul Krugman - QED.

Posted by: Roy at June 03, 2013 02:12 PM (VndSC)

126 Burn it down.
Scatter the stones.
Salt the earth where it stood.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (/PCJa)

127 There are lots of reasons you can declare that someone who isn't on the record as being in this country is not eligible to work in this country.
Heck, I'd imagine even "provide for the common defense" could be applied to this.

__________

Only if you're a progressive who thinks the Consitution is something to be circumvented in the pursuit of your political goals.

If you truly support it, you will not throw it under the bus when it suits you.

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (zWwaU)

128 89. Coughcoughabortioncoughcough

Yeah
I went there

Posted by: Navycopjoe at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (hXDld)

129 also the false idea of Cheap labor ,

The ones that hire/use cheap labor pass the burden of financing their healthcare, their food, for some their housing , to the tax payer.

so yeah the employer gets a Great deal! tax payers not so much.

Posted by: willow at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (nqBYe)

130 Hey, you legal Americans aren't so hot yourself, what with your revolvers and your freeway littering.

Posted by: Iron Eyes Cody, Native Italo-American at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (8ZskC)

131 I mean, we worked to end slavery. Edmund Burke, founder of what we would consider conservatism in the modern world worked to destroy slavery even as he was arguing,

"The awful Author of our being is the Author of our place in the order of existence,—and…having disposed and marshalled us by a divine tactic, not according to our will, but according to His, He has in and by that disposition virtually subjected us to act the part which belongs to the place assigned us. We have obligations to mankind at large, which are not in consequence of any special voluntary pact. They arise from the relation of man to man, and the relation of man to God, which relations are not matters of choice. On the contrary, the force of all the pacts which we enter into with any particular person or number of persons amongst mankind depends upon those prior obligations. In some cases the subordinate relations are voluntary, in others they are necessary,—but the duties are all compulsive."


It has always been the f'in progressives - I'll bet you it was their great grand-sires who came up with the idea of moving some extra Africans from Africa to the West to 'lower aritifically high wages', the little pricks.

Posted by: RiverC at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (El+h4)

132 As for the politics of this, it’s an awful place to be for anyone who is a Republican or a conservative. If you want to cement the idea in Americans that the GOP only cares about the “rich”, then place yourself at the head of the group demanding that US companies have an nearly unlimited supply of cheap workers to push up profits while dragging wages down. That’s the economics of amnesty and it stinks.

Frankly, I don't give a shit about the GOPs problems. They want to give up on constitutional government, they deserve to die.

That being said, Jen Rubin is a poor man's Maureen Dowd. Or a soberMolly Ivins minus the lobotomy.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (zF6Iw)

133 120 I am a libertarian. The libertarian position is that immigration should be super easy... but also that the government should give no benefits and the tax rate should be very low.

I think all of the above, together, works. But taking just the super easy immigration part and leaving all the entitlements in place? Bad, bad idea.

Posted by: mr_jack at June 03, 2013 02:11 PM (TMG3G)



Will they have the right to vote? Cause if so, guess what's gonna happen.....

Posted by: BCochran1981 at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (da5Wo)

134 I would think making a huge class of people no longer having to 'work in
the shadows' would mean their wages would go UP, not DOWN.


Their take-home should go down, because the shady employers who've been paying them illegally will suddenly start deducting the SS tax and FICA and workmans' comp insurance and all that happy "pro-worker" horseshit proggs claim to love but seem curiously unperturbed that illegal workers don't get.

Not to mention the Obamacare fines and other taxes on employing someone.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (ZKzrr)

135 People are free to GET IN THE FUCKING LINE to become a citizen.

They do NOT GET TO JUMP THE FUCKING LINE.


Jumping line isn't a problem. Line jumpers usually get a beat down.

Illegals are SKIPPING THE LINE altogether.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (t+DWU)

136
Jen, when you remove the front door of your domicile, I'll consider what you have to say about immigration. That also goes for anyone else who wants amnesty for illegals.

Put your home where your mouth is. Let in anybody who wants to come in.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (0HooB)

137 Back in the 1800s the US government was much smaller than it is now,
paid out almost nothing in benefits, and people were well off. Now
people cannot imagine being well off unless the government gives them
stuff.


^^^PRECISELY!!! Back then, we gave immigrants OPPORTUNITY, not a bunch of free shit!

Posted by: Tex Lovera at June 03, 2013 02:14 PM (wtvvX)

138 " When did "amnesty" for law-breaking foreign nationals become synonymous with "immigration" and "U.S. labor market?""

Thank you, Fritz.

Reminds me a bit of the massive marches in Chicago some years ago put on by illegal aliens - not undocumented workers, illegal aliens- marching to demand their "Constitutional Rights". Right down in the Loop, it was just special.

Posted by: Chariots of Toast at June 03, 2013 02:14 PM (mm+xE)

139 Who exactly are these "right-wingers" she speaks of?

Well, people on the right. Because, you see, Jennifer is not. She is not a conservative. She is the token lapdog at the Washington Post, the faux-conservative figleaf on their masthead.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:14 PM (xw77v)

140 What's so hard to understand about you came here illegally and cut the line. Now go back home and stand in line behind the legal immigrants. We'll eventually get to you and if you behaved well, take that into consideration.

Posted by: Marcus at June 03, 2013 02:15 PM (GGCsk)

141 Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (zWwaU)


Congrats. You are now in the running for stupidest AoS troll.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at June 03, 2013 02:15 PM (da5Wo)

142 You realize that all the big government people don't care about anything other than being able to tax an extra 11 million people? They're so desperate for this, Chucky Schumer and Rubby, because without it they can't finance their fantasy any longer.

Posted by: RiverC at June 03, 2013 02:15 PM (El+h4)

143 105 I would think making a huge class of people no longer having to 'work in the shadows' would mean their wages would go UP, not DOWN.


Posted by: zsasz at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (MMC8r)


Nope... this will not get rid of the black market labor market... it will just make more legal workers...

They will then import more illegals to fill the illegal positions...

Posted by: Romeo13 at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (lZBBB)

144 130 Hey, you legal Americans aren't so hot yourself, what with your revolvers and your freeway littering.
Posted by: Iron Eyes Cody, Native Italo-American at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (8ZskC)


That brought a tear to my eye.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (xw77v)

145 So Gabe wants to see Republicans never win the White House ever again? Because all them newly minted voters ain't gwanna turn GOP, if the history of Hispanic voting after every recent amnesty bill is any lesson.


***

Shut up extremist. How dare you point out that that 85% of Hispanic voters making < 50,000K voted for Obama in 2012 but...immigration reform gets us GOP votes or something!

Posted by: laceyunderalls at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (pLTLS)

146 Wrong. Article I, Section 8:"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises....To regulate Commerce with foreign NationsTo establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization...."

_____________

Naturalization refers to citizenship, i.e. voting, serving on juries, and other privileges, as opposed to those rights Jefferson spoke of.

Commerce is a natural right of free people. Voting is not.

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (zWwaU)

147 I'm anti-amnesty *and* anti-immigration (legal or otherwise). Hispanics tend to be statists and ethnic nationalists, and they're the ones doing all the immigration. If they were chomping at the bit to deconstruct the welfare state, I'd be pro-amnesty and pro-immigration (legal or otherwise). They're not though. They just want to elect more and more Democrats.

Really, discussing this in terms of immigration (or economics) is beside the point. The issue is simple. Either you want 11 million+ new Democrat voters, or you don't. If you don't, oppose amnesty. If you do, support it.

Posted by: Mr Estrada at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (5piqN)

148 Their take-home should go down, because the shady employers who've been paying them illegally will suddenly start deducting the SS tax and FICA and workmans' comp insurance and all that happy "pro-worker" horseshit proggs claim to love but seem curiously unperturbed that illegal workers don't get



Those businesses will close their doors before they do that.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (t+DWU)

149
No person who is not a citizen of this country and who has broken the laws of this nation by illegally entering it should be granted any right or privilege.


Thread Winner!

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (0HooB)

150 These faux-libertarians who want an open borders suicide pact are utterly dishonest.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (ujg0T)

151 You realize that all the big government people don't care about anything other than being able to tax an extra 11 million people? They're so desperate for this, Chucky Schumer and Rubby, because without it they can't finance their fantasy any longer.
Posted by: RiverC at June 03, 2013 02:15 PM (El+h4)
-
I laugh a cynical laugh every time I recall that amnesty is the congressional plan for the survival of SS and welfare. They can't even fathom the concept that the EITC makes a mockery of their plan.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at June 03, 2013 02:17 PM (QA8q2)

152 >> While building her Libertarian straw man, Rubin sort of nods at but never admits something very important….you can’t have this idealized (and never actually implemented) international labor market while at the same time providing a massive welfare state.

I'm with the Libertarians on cross-border free labor markets right up 'til this point.

We don't have an immigration problem so much as we have a welfare problem.

Posted by: Andy at June 03, 2013 02:17 PM (XXMRb)

153 Burn it down.
Scatter the stones.
Salt the earth where it stood.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (/PCJa)




Finally a bit of common sense interjected into this nonsensical discussion!


Posted by: Diogenes' Lamp at June 03, 2013 02:18 PM (bb5+k)

154 Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (zWwaU)


--------------------------------------------------


I really can't put into words how full of shit you are.

Posted by: Soona at June 03, 2013 02:18 PM (B0p1w)

155 You're fine with price controls on labor, but not capital, and the Democrats are in favor of both.

Price controls on labor? But it's the Dems who think the minimum wage will solve all problems.

Posted by: Ian S. at June 03, 2013 02:18 PM (B/VB5)

156 You realize that all the big government people don't care about anything
other than being able to tax an extra 11 million people?


Most of whom don't/won't make enough to be taxed.

Did you mean to say "11 million extra people keeping them in absolute power"?

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at June 03, 2013 02:18 PM (ZKzrr)

157 Shut up extremist. How dare you point out that that 85% of Hispanic voters making

I unperson myself. I guess it's just my intrinsic racism. What else could it possibly be?

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:18 PM (xw77v)

158 121 Cicero, give me the handbook back pls

Posted by: Navycopjoe at June 03, 2013 02:18 PM (dYf+Z)

159 so i guess Rubin has the same idea as progressives, poor are desirable, and the tax payer may be used to fund their survival costs, then use them again for votes.

Posted by: willow at June 03, 2013 02:18 PM (nqBYe)

160 103 Question: Are you anti-Amnesty or anti-Immigration? Is there no room left in America for legalized immigration?

Posted by: ASDF at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (x2bTX)

No one here is against legal immigration. Legal immigrants don't need amnesty; hence this word-->legal.

Posted by: baldilocks at June 03, 2013 02:18 PM (Su0W2)

161 Posted by: kathysaysso at June 03, 2013 01:48 PM (6H6o

Slave
labor was not cheap. In 1861 the cost of a slave ran the equivalent of
$50,000 today. You had that as an initial capital cost and then on top
of it you had the maintenance costs of food, housing, and clothes. This
is why most large plantations of the day ran in constant debt.


Posted by: Vic at June 03, 2013 02:06 PM (lZvxr)
Thank you. I stand corrected.

Posted by: kathysaysso at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (6H6o8)

162 #155

Said's Law has yet to be repealed, and thus, minimum wage continues to fail in solving anything.

Posted by: RiverC at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (El+h4)

163 "Question: Are you anti-Amnesty or anti-Immigration? Is there no room left in America for legalized immigration?

----------------------



Dude, you DO realize that the United States has a process in place
for immigrating here legally, don't you?"

Yes. I DO realize this. I DON'T think every commenter understands there is a difference though. That's why I asked hoping they'd each ask themselves.

Posted by: ASDF at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (x2bTX)

164 OMG - what a load of bullshit. That argument totally ignores the fact that the ILEGALS are already filling those needs by working with false identification or under the table wages.

If anything, the exact opposite is true.

The overabundance of cheap (though mostly illegal) labor have artificially kep wages LOW!

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (f9c2L)

165
Naturalization refers to citizenship, i.e. voting, serving on juries, and other privileges, as opposed to those rights Jefferson spoke of.

Commerce is a natural right of free people. Voting is not.

Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (zWwaU)


What part of the Constitution did Jefferson write....?

Oh....none? Then what relevance does the DoI have? The purpose of the Constitution is not to implement the justifications for rebellion that were listed in the DoI.

Sheesh.

Posted by: @JohnTant at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (tVWQB)

166 How about we just implement the same rules as Mexico? Last I heard the kicked out anyone who enters the country illegally.

Posted by: Lizzy at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (NDNbv)

167 Did you mean to say "11 million extra people keeping them in absolute power"?


Hey, what makes you think common sense is welcome here?

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (xw77v)

168
Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (zWwaU)


I'm not a constitutional anything.
I've read it. That's about it.
FWIW, other people have pointed out that yes, in fact, the constitution gives specific power to regulate trade between nations.
It's a remarkably short jump to consider "workers" inclusive of "trade."

The only way to get where you're going is to declare that every nation state itself is an illegitimate infringement upon rights and we all exist under a singular world government.
Which is disturbing. But keep trying.

Posted by: tsrblke at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (GaqMa)

169 Next time someone says "we are nation of immigrants" I will ask them "what is a nation then?"

Posted by: NYC Parent at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (HEo6y)

170 Those businesses will close their doors before they do that.

Yeah, I don't expect people who've been breaking laws with impunity for years to change.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at June 03, 2013 02:20 PM (ZKzrr)

171 Yes. I DO realize this. I DON'T think every commenter understands there is a difference though. That's why I asked hoping they'd each ask themselves.

Protip: Don't insult the Morons.

Protip2: Maybe learn about your audience before assuming they're the ones who are ignorant.

Those two are gratis.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:20 PM (/PCJa)

172
Don't forget that all the New World Odor people are working hard to make sure that other countries have the borders they want, but not the US.

Georgy Soros, I'm looking at you and your Open Borders Initiative.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at June 03, 2013 02:20 PM (0HooB)

173 > This is why most large plantations of the day ran in constant debt.

Like GM they planned to make it up in volume apparently.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at June 03, 2013 02:20 PM (ZWvOb)

174
That being said, Jen Rubin is a poor man's Maureen Dowd. Or a soberMolly Ivins minus the lobotomy.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (zF6Iw)


I have to give Molly Ivins credit for having some wit. I've never seen anything written by Jen Rubin which I thought worthy of note.


Posted by: Diogenes' Lamp at June 03, 2013 02:20 PM (bb5+k)

175 When did Jen Rubin marry the "Rent is too damn high" guy?

Posted by: Ammo Dump at June 03, 2013 02:20 PM (GgPam)

176 #156

Oh don't worry. They'll do tax 'reform' next. They will discover that the poverty line has magically 'changed' when they added a whole crapload of poor people.

Posted by: RiverC at June 03, 2013 02:21 PM (El+h4)

177 But don't you see we'll all illegal immigrants! All of us!
Except for the Navajo who were chosen from on High by God himself to divinely rule over the Americas.

They sprouted out of the ground right there Omaha, Nebraska.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 03, 2013 02:21 PM (ZPrif)

178 Illegals are SKIPPING THE LINE altogether.
Posted by: rickb223 at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (t+DWU)

They're getting the VIP Side Entrance.

Posted by: RWC at June 03, 2013 02:21 PM (fWAjv)

179 If you truly support it, you will not throw it under the bus when it suits you.
Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (zWwaU)

I bet everything you learned about Government and the constitution you learned from Schoolhouse Rock.

Go ahead and tell me howBill becamea law.

Posted by: polynikes at June 03, 2013 02:21 PM (m2CN7)

180 If they wanted more people to be taxed they'd let in the high-earning engineers, doctors, and professionals that are stuck at the gate trying to get in legally.

They want low-income people who will do the work the welfare class won't, who will then pay little or nothing in taxes, and more welfare class.

Posted by: zsasz at June 03, 2013 02:21 PM (MMC8r)

181 Slave
labor was not cheap. In 1861 the cost of a slave ran the equivalent of
$50,000 today.



Crap. You're harshing my fantasy thought experiment of running a large sex plantation.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at June 03, 2013 02:21 PM (8ZskC)

182 @135 -

Can you blame them tho? The legal "line" is a little bit like the entrance to the William J. Le Petomane Turnpike from Blazing Saddles. Did we really expect them to go back to Mexico for a shitload of dimes?

I take the Dennis Miller approach (I think it was him)... have all these unskilled laborers build the damn wall, then *whoops* give 'em the ol' hip check over the border right before it's done and finish the last 100 feet ourselves. Payback for all the welfare.

Posted by: WolfinNC at June 03, 2013 02:21 PM (HVOxM)

183 As for the politics of this, it’s an awful place to be for anyone who is
a Republican or a conservative. If you want to cement the idea in
Americans that the GOP only cares about the “rich”, then place yourself
at the head of the group demanding that US companies have an nearly
unlimited supply of cheap workers to push up profits while dragging wages down. That’s the economics of amnesty and it stinks.


Precisely. It absolutely solidifies the worst stereotypes of conservatives and (especially) Republicans - they are stone-hearted scrooges who would whore-out their sister for $5.

Meanwhile, libtards who push this amnesty precisely because it brings-in massive hordes of cheap labor (aka, future clients for the welfare state - aka, fresh Democrat primary voters), and who are therefore, in fact, the very sister-pimping scrooges in this discussion, get to look like big-hearted, generous, enlightened saints-on-earth.

Bizzaro-world could not be more strange than that in which we live.

LIB.

Posted by: DocJ at June 03, 2013 02:21 PM (zrsn3)

184 Rubin is, and always has been, a lying scrunt.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 03, 2013 02:21 PM (ZPrif)

185 Those two are gratis.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:20 PM (/PCJa)



He's furiously googling that word.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at June 03, 2013 02:21 PM (da5Wo)

186 It's bad enough that the lying liars what lie are liberals but when the disingenuous fucks that spew this shit are supposedly on our side, it makes me want to pound their faces into salisbury steak.

I guess there technically aren't many out there on my side any more.

Posted by: DangerGirl @deadlyestrogen at June 03, 2013 02:22 PM (GrtrJ)

187 Protip: Don't insult the Morons.



Protip2: Maybe learn about your audience before assuming they're the ones who are ignorant.


In a previous thread today, someone brought up morganatic marriage. The Moron Horde knows *everything*.

Posted by: Ian S. at June 03, 2013 02:22 PM (B/VB5)

188 So Gabe wants to see Republicans never win the White House ever again? Because all them newly minted voters ain't gwanna turn GOP, if the history of Hispanic voting after every recent amnesty bill is any lesson.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (xw77v)

----------------------------------

I believe Drew pointed out to him that the 1986 amnesty did not produce millions of new Hispanic GOP voters. Or ANY, to be more accurate.

Didn't make a dent, as far as I could tell. Gabe isn't satisfied with being wrong - he wants to be wrong as hard as he can. Historical example from less than 30 years ago proving you wrong? Fuck that. THIS time it'll work.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 03, 2013 02:22 PM (CJjw5)

189 He's furiously googling that word.

Probably.

It's only Monday. Why do we already have 2 trolls (Hi, Average Joe) messing with my zen?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:22 PM (/PCJa)

190 <i>Naturalization refers to citizenship, i.e. voting, serving on juries, and other privileges, as opposed to those rights Jefferson spoke of. Commerce is a natural right of free people. Voting is not.
Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (zWwaU) </i>

Wrong again. Naturalization and citizenship of whom? Foreign immigrants.
Meanwhile, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises....To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations..."

And that applies to the nationals citizens of those foreign nations.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 03, 2013 02:23 PM (ujg0T)

191 You know, my mom, m-i-l, and f-i-l are legal immigrants

This is a cunt punch to all of them
Excerpt the f-i-l of course

Posted by: Navycopjoe at June 03, 2013 02:23 PM (dYf+Z)

192 Gabe isn't satisfied with being wrong - he wants to be wrong as hard as he can.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 03, 2013 02:22 PM (CJjw5)



He probably learned that from Drew.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at June 03, 2013 02:23 PM (da5Wo)

193
If they wanted more people to be taxed they'd let in the high-earning
engineers, doctors, and professionals that are stuck at the gate trying
to get in legally.


They know Obamacare's gonna fix that "high-earning doctor" thing...and drive the need for more immigrants with medical training in "developing nations." Ho-hum.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at June 03, 2013 02:24 PM (ZKzrr)

194 Yes. I DO realize this. I DON'T think every commenter understands there is a difference though. That's why I asked hoping they'd each ask themselves.
Posted by: ASDF at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (x2bTX)

You're projecting.

Posted by: baldilocks at June 03, 2013 02:24 PM (Su0W2)

195
Commerce is a natural right of free people. Voting is not.

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:16 PM (zWwaU)


In the Immortal words of I.I. Rabi, "You aren't even wrong."

Posted by: Diogenes' Lamp at June 03, 2013 02:24 PM (bb5+k)

196 > Gabe isn't satisfied with being wrong - he wants to be wrong as hard as he can.

It's almost as if living in the DC/NYC/Boston triangle makes you more leftist over time. Whoda thunkit?

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at June 03, 2013 02:24 PM (ZWvOb)

197 Best thing about this thread - we finally find out who TFG cheated off of during Con. Law 101.

Posted by: RWC at June 03, 2013 02:25 PM (fWAjv)

198 169 Next time someone says "we are nation of immigrants" I will ask them "what is a nation then?"


Posted by: NYC Parent at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (HEo6y)


I just say... 'Really? I'll tell that to my direct ancestor, who fought in the French and Indian War.... you know... BEFORE the United States existed?"

Posted by: Romeo13 at June 03, 2013 02:25 PM (lZBBB)

199 >> They want low-income people who will do the work the welfare class won't, who will then pay little or nothing in taxes, and more welfare class.

And the only reason the welfare class won't do this work is that they don't have to in order to eat.

Seems to me that if you were to end these programs full stop, you'd kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Posted by: Andy at June 03, 2013 02:26 PM (XXMRb)

200
"...that’s not to say the government should be in the business of importing an unending supply of foreign workers to compete with citizens in the name of economic freedom or helping companies keep labor costs down."

"Unending"? Straw man down! Straw man down!

Posted by: spongeworthy--pooch whisperer at June 03, 2013 02:26 PM (r5w1L)

201 197 Best thing about this thread - we finally find out who TFG cheated off of during Con. Law 101.

Posted by: RWC at June 03, 2013 02:25 PM (fWAjv)



Thread-fucking-winner

Posted by: BCochran1981 at June 03, 2013 02:26 PM (da5Wo)

202 My handlers tell me my IQ is "artificially high".

Posted by: B. Hussein Obama at June 03, 2013 02:26 PM (Ks4nX)

203 It's almost as if living in the DC/NYC/Boston triangle makes you more leftist over time. Whoda thunkit?Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at June 03, 2013 02:24 PM (ZWvOb)I just applied to a think tank out there that shall remain nameless and checked "yeah, I'd rather work from the Midwest" on the box .(I don't expect anything to come of the application, I figured I'd roll the dice.)

Posted by: tsrblke at June 03, 2013 02:26 PM (GaqMa)

204 Didn't make a dent, as far as I could tell. Gabe isn't satisfied with being wrong - he wants to be wrong as hard as he can. Historical example from less than 30 years ago proving you wrong? Fuck that. THIS time it'll work.

I just don't understand. Gabe is a smart guy. If someone could convince me that a swath of freshly minted citizens, mostly from Central and South America, would actually swell the ranks of Republican voters, I could be swayed. But there is no empirical evidence of this. I don't understand how self-described conservatives can ignore this. Marco Rubio has an answer; he merely says that he doesn't believe these new citizens will lean Democrat. He provides no proof for this assertion.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:27 PM (xw77v)

205 197 Best thing about this thread - we finally find out who TFG cheated off of during Con. Law 101.
Posted by: RWC at June 03, 2013 02:25 PM (fWAjv)

LOL

Posted by: baldilocks at June 03, 2013 02:28 PM (Su0W2)

206 I'm thinking of going into the Marines. Well not really formally joining. I just want all the cool equipment and stuff. I'll fake all the IDs and once they assign me , they can't throw me out because Commerce and shit. Jefferson said so.

Posted by: polynikes at June 03, 2013 02:28 PM (m2CN7)

207 Yarble flrub schplatz der fwob! You anti-brown people ignorant racists! Take that!

Posted by: GHJK at June 03, 2013 02:28 PM (X5+jU)

208 Posted by: tsrblke at June 03, 2013 02:26 PM (GaqMa)

Good luck.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:28 PM (/PCJa)

209 This all goes back to the series by Milton Friedman who pointed out that the US had no immigration policy prior to the early 20th century because they weren't even the fundamental trappings of a safety net until the beginning of the 20th century.
Having a social safety net requires that immigration be controlled.

Posted by: unambiguiously at June 03, 2013 02:28 PM (e8kgV)

210 Yes. I DO realize this. I DON'T think every commenter understands there is a difference though. That's why I asked hoping they'd each ask themselves.

Posted by: ASDF at June 03, 2013 02:19 PM (x2bTX)

----------------------

And how did that work out? You look like a fucking fool. If that's your attempt to apply the Socratic method, you might as well chug a 40-ounce of hemlock right now. Because you stink at it.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 03, 2013 02:29 PM (CJjw5)

211 It's almost as if living in the DC/NYC/Boston triangle makes you more
leftist over time. Whoda thunkit?Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance
Warlord at June 03, 2013 02:24 PM (ZWvOb)

#hatersgonnahate

Posted by: ASDF at June 03, 2013 02:29 PM (x2bTX)

212 I believe we can agree that Drew and Gabe are two particularly polarizing cobloggers here, for good or ill.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:29 PM (xw77v)

213 Wrong again. Naturalization and citizenship of whom? Foreign immigrants.
Meanwhile, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises....To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations..."

And that applies to the nationals citizens of those foreign nations.

__________

People are not nations. But hooray for judicial activism. Conservatives can do it too, when it suits them.

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:29 PM (zWwaU)

214 I believe we can agree that Drew and Gabe are two particularly polarizing cobloggers here, for good or ill.

They certainly give the Horde plenty of opportunities to get into high dudgeon.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:30 PM (/PCJa)

215 > If someone could convince me that a swath of freshly minted citizens, mostly from Central and South America, would actually swell the ranks of Republican voters, I could be swayed.

They don't care. It's either about low paying jobs for their corporate buddies/donors, or some sort of empathetic fairness deal. Letting your emotions overrule common sense and logic you're either a child (physically or mentally) or a leftist.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at June 03, 2013 02:30 PM (ZWvOb)

216 Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:27 PM (xw77v)

I think Gabe believes the their Social Con Catholicism will overcome their Big Government anti Fiscal Con Leanings...

But election results do not show that.

Posted by: Romeo13 at June 03, 2013 02:30 PM (lZBBB)

217 I've missed EoJ's smackdowns :p

Posted by: laceyunderalls at June 03, 2013 02:30 PM (pLTLS)

218
58 Horchata.
Posted by: Mr. McGuire at June 03, 2013 02:00 PM (OTuj4)


"Horchata"? Is that what you hear in the background when you call The Chicken Ranch?

Posted by: jwpaine @PirateBallerina at June 03, 2013 02:31 PM (/lWM8)

219 Best thing about this thread - we finally find out who TFG cheated off of during Con. Law 101.
Posted by: RWC

if the TFG had cheated off of me, he'd be far too young to be President.

but Con Law...the Con Law that says the New Deal, the Federal Reserve, the Great Society, the National Firearms Act, etc are constitutional? That Con Law? Why the hell should I respect that Con Law?

Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:31 PM (zWwaU)

220 I think Gabe believes the their Social Con Catholicism will overcome their Big Government anti Fiscal Con Leanings...

But election results do not show that.


I wonder how social con Catholics in general feel about gay marriage.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:31 PM (xw77v)

221 Vashta Nerada: "They can't even fathom the concept that the EITC makes a mockery of their plan."

Oh, they can fathom just fine. When it comes to acquiring and spending Other People's Money, they are Economic Einsteins squared. They're just hoping LIV won't fathom as they throw yet another batch of spaghetti at the fridge hoping some of it sticks.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at June 03, 2013 02:31 PM (eHIJJ)

222 If someone could convince me that a swath of freshly minted citizens, mostly from Central and South America, would actually swell the ranks of Republican voters, I could be swayed.

See, that's sloppy, too.

Either unchecked immigration (and amnesty) are a good idea for the nation, or they're not. If they are, we should support them. If they are not, we should oppose them.

How they would vote should not even be a question.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:32 PM (/PCJa)

223 And the only reason the welfare class won't do this work is that they don't have to in order to eat.
Seems to me that if you were to end these programs full stop, you'd kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Posted by: Andy at June 03, 2013 02:26 PM (XXMRb)

-------------------------

It's not a safety net. It's a hammock.

And all us step-n-fetchits are sweating our nuts off bringing these deadasses fresh mint juleps while they gently swing and vote us into slavery.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 03, 2013 02:32 PM (CJjw5)

224 THIS time it'll work.

I don't profess to being as old as Vic, who has probably lived through all four of the immigration battles since 1900. But I now have a bottom line, BEFORE even talk begins, and it means double row of eight foot high fence with concertina wire at the top.

Don't anyone waste my time before I see that fence. Because until that's in place, you're just trying to tell me you won't cum in my mouth.

Posted by: Regular Moron at June 03, 2013 02:32 PM (U2UQk)

225 If they wanted more people to be taxed they'd let in the high-earning engineers, doctors, and professionals that are stuck at the gate trying to get in legally.

That wouldn't work either.

The total value of a profession is relatively stable, very stable compared to individual professionals' earnings. If you add more doctors, e.g., each doctor's price (income) goes down (usually). Taxation is individually calculated, so the total taxation of all doctors probably goes down with their average income.

Regardless, what "they" want is not economic. They want you -- especially if you're an American holding or seeking a Job Americans Won't Do -- destroyed.

Posted by: oblig. at June 03, 2013 02:32 PM (cePv8)

226 PJ Rubin Media

a 'better' revisionist neoconservative spokeswoman

The one who's wages are artificially high would be Rubin. She ain't worth spit.

It isn't just amnesty for criminal illegal aliens. It's displacement of the American citizen population in favor of lower waged employees, legal green card Visa highly skilled as well as low and non-skilled.

And Rubin's in the Hatch McCain pocket speaking on behalf of "new" media PJ. First LGF Johnson jumped from the pan into the fire. Go, Rubin, Go!

Posted by: Bro' Taser Co. at June 03, 2013 02:32 PM (MhA4j)

227 >> They certainly give the Horde plenty of opportunities to get into high dudgeon.

You know you love it.

And now your AoSHQ Prime subscription lets you take that experience on the road with you in your car, to the gym, or wherever you have a compatible MP3 player.

/Podcast promo

Posted by: Andy at June 03, 2013 02:32 PM (TtpFN)

228 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:32 PM (/PCJa)


Excellent point.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:33 PM (xw77v)

229
@AllenG,

Yeah, if I pull this lottery win off y'all will know as you'll hear the celebration even in Texas (a job in my field of choice.)
Especially when I have to scrub my involvement here and be all "professional."

Meanwhile, there's a new MS store opening in town and a new Xbox being released in a few months, which is looking more and more like how my income will be earned soon . (I told my wife, if I'm taking a part time shitjob, it sure as hell better come with at least one perk I'd like.)

Posted by: tsrblke at June 03, 2013 02:33 PM (GaqMa)

230 Having a social safety net requires that immigration be controlled.


Posted by: unambiguiously at June 03, 2013 02:28 PM (e8kgV)


More? We ran out of land to expand onto.... there has been no significant Land expansion since Alaska... ie... a frontier...

Posted by: Romeo13 at June 03, 2013 02:33 PM (lZBBB)

231
I just don't understand. Gabe is a smart guy. If someone could convince me that a swath of freshly minted citizens, mostly from Central and South America, would actually swell the ranks of Republican voters, I could be swayed. But there is no empirical evidence of this. I don't understand how self-described conservatives can ignore this. Marco Rubio has an answer; he merely says that he doesn't believe these new citizens will lean Democrat. He provides no proof for this assertion.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:27 PM (xw77v)


Political expedience would not sway me. It is simply Wrong, and damn whomever it may benefit, politically or otherwise.

Posted by: Diogenes' Lamp at June 03, 2013 02:33 PM (bb5+k)

232 You know you love it.

You kidding? It's what I come here for.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:33 PM (/PCJa)

233 130 Hey, you legal Americans aren't so hot yourself, what with your revolvers and your freeway littering.

Posted by: Iron Eyes Cody, Native Italo-American at June 03, 2013 02:13 PM (8ZskC)
-------------

As an aside, and I realize the comment is parody,:
"Cody was born as Espera Oscar de Corti on April 3, 1904, in Kaplan in Vermilion Parish, in southwestern Louisiana, a second son of Antonio de Corti and his wife, Francesca Salpietra, immigrants from Sicily."

Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 03, 2013 02:34 PM (aDwsi)

234 AllenG, I would only add that many of the amnesty supporters who are Republicans want to claim that this will be good for the Republican Party.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:34 PM (xw77v)

235 I wonder how social con Catholics in general feel about gay marriage.

"Second-generation Hispanics tend to be more accepting of homosexuality than the general public"

Source: http://ace.mu.nu/archives/339973.php

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at June 03, 2013 02:34 PM (ZKzrr)

236 The thing that gets me about all these amnesty folks is that they actually think it will bring the illegal Mexicans "out of the shadows" so they can go down to their local police station, take the oath of citizenship, and yell "Viva America!"

One big problem. The last amnesty in 1986 covered anyone who had been here longer than 25 years. All they had to do was admit it and pay a nominal fee (I think a citizenship class was involved too, don't hold me to that). No penalties, no persecution, no bus back to Mexico. Despite all that, a very large percent declined to take advantage of the program (I believe it was over 25%).

What does that say? It says "I don't give a rats ass about your lousy citizenship, just give me your money, gringo. Fuck America, Viva Mexico!"

Posted by: WolfinNC at June 03, 2013 02:34 PM (HVOxM)

237 >> It's not a safety net. It's a hammock.

When I'm feeling charitable, I refer to it as a spider web that traps otherwise good, hardworking people in it.

So, yeah, hammock.

Posted by: Andy at June 03, 2013 02:34 PM (TtpFN)

238 "Cody was born as Espera Oscar de Corti on April 3, 1904, in Kaplan in Vermilion Parish, in southwestern Louisiana, a second son of Antonio de Corti and his wife, Francesca Salpietra, immigrants from Sicily."

Cool. Cherokee Mafia.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:35 PM (xw77v)

239 It's not a safety net. It's a hammock.

Or a trap to cage.

Posted by: Bro' Taser Co. at June 03, 2013 02:35 PM (MhA4j)

240 To speak up for the proposition, I think my lawn muchacho is charging a bit much, and I'd like to see a bit more competition in the leaf blowing and weedeating markets. Ole'!

Posted by: Tom Servo at June 03, 2013 02:35 PM (b3XdW)

241 People are not nations. But hooray for judicial activism. Conservatives can do it too, when it suits them.
Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:29 PM (zWwaU)


---------------------------------------------


You're not very old are you. Have you graduated grade school yet? And if you are older, have you graduated grade school yet?


Posted by: Soona at June 03, 2013 02:36 PM (B0p1w)

242 I would only add that many of the amnesty supporters who are Republicans want to claim that this will be good for the Republican Party.

Exactly. If you're trying to sell it to me based on how they'll vote, you can go blow it out your ear; I'm not interested.

If you want to try to convince me it's good for the country, I'll listen.

I'll laugh at and mock you mercilessly later, but I will at least listen.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:36 PM (/PCJa)

243
"Second-generation Hispanics tend to be more accepting of homosexuality than the general public"


Ah yes, I recall that now.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:36 PM (xw77v)

244 <i>People are not nations. But hooray for judicial activism. Conservatives can do it too, when it suits them.
Posted by: Virginian at June 03, 2013 02:29 PM (zWwaU) </i>

Keep on with that open borders suicide pact sophistry. People certainly are *of* foreign nations; they were then, and they still are.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 03, 2013 02:36 PM (ujg0T)

245
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 03, 2013 02:32 PM (CJjw5)

I'm still considering applying for disability as a social experiment.
I'm sure I have at least one undiagnosed mental problem that could be turned into an "inability to work." (Social anxiety disorder for example.)

I'd be an under thirty, high IQ, college graduate, sponge. If that doesn't prove the system is borked nothing will.

Posted by: tsrblke at June 03, 2013 02:36 PM (GaqMa)

246 I'd be an under thirty, high IQ, college graduate, sponge.

If that's all it takes, the proposition "the system is borked" should have been proven long ago.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:37 PM (/PCJa)

247
"Black Leaders: Immigration Bill will harm workers"

That's a headline right now on Drudge. Black leaders have just realized that importing cheap low-skill labor from 3rd world countries leads to unemployment among the low-skill workers already here.

And that many of those harmed the most are black workers.

Posted by: Boots at June 03, 2013 02:37 PM (oG66P)

248 Ace,

You missed the other rampant dishonesty there: "want to keep domestic wages artificially high by restricting the labor market (e.g. keeping out immigrant workers)."

the vast majority of people against amnesty are not against immigration or immigrant workers, or work visas or what have you.

She is conflating, as amnesty pushers always do - all immigration of any kind with illegal immigration and amnesty for illegal immigrants. It is the reverse of the "you can't round them all up so might as well give them amnesty" argument.

Does she really believe that if we don't pass amnesty we will no longer have any immigrant workers in the U.S.? Is that really the end result of no amnesty? Of course not. So, her entire argument is premised on a straw-man lie.


Posted by: Monkeytoe at June 03, 2013 02:37 PM (sOx93)

249 Don't anyone waste my time before I see that fence. Because until that's in place, you're just trying to tell me you won't cum in my mouth.


Posted by: Regular Moron at June 03, 2013 02:32 PM (U2UQk)


We have a military to protect THIS country.... Nationalize a 20 mile strip along the border, and make it a Military reservation.... and free fire zone.

We have more troops protecting the South Korean border, than we do OURs... even though we are INVADED by millions of people scoffing at our laws.

Posted by: Romeo13 at June 03, 2013 02:38 PM (lZBBB)

250 let's try not to be practical about this

Posted by: occam at June 03, 2013 02:38 PM (BrkDN)

251 The American worker isn't forgotten. It is simply that the amnesty lovers don't mind taking a dump on him (and it is primarily him). They could care less.

Posted by: ejo at June 03, 2013 02:38 PM (GXvSO)

252 One could argue that this amnesty will only help elect more Democrats; that is to say, more voters who want larger and more invasive government. This in itself is bad for the nation as a whole.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 02:39 PM (xw77v)

253 and don't forget you can still buy fake Rolex watches by searching in Ace' archives.

Posted by: occam at June 03, 2013 02:40 PM (BrkDN)

254 If that's all it takes, the proposition "the system is borked" should have been proven long ago.Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:37 PM (/PCJa)No one has produced a live case study yet that I've seen.Even the near case studies I've collected people do in fact have some physical injury (although I'm not sure that it's as "job limiting" as is often claimed.)

Posted by: tsrblke at June 03, 2013 02:40 PM (GaqMa)

255 Gad, the stupid is strong in this one.

Wages are artifically low because of the severe costs of doing business imposed by the all-pervasive regulatory state.

It's the state that is killing the middle class. If we had real freedom and relax barriers to employment (like leveling the playing field between those with employee benefits and those without), labor competition would rise, wages would rise AND the costs of doing business would decrease.

Posted by: Arms Merchant at June 03, 2013 02:40 PM (5RUlF)

256 >>And now your AoSHQ Prime subscription lets you take that experience on the road with you in your car, to the gym, or wherever you have a compatible MP3 player.


Ahh!!


Like it wasn't creepy enough to get emails from Twitter saying that you guys are following me or following me around or whatever...

Posted by: Mama AJ at June 03, 2013 02:40 PM (SUKHu)

257 "I just don't understand. Gabe is a smart guy."


I agree. But when he said on that podcast that when amnesty is passed, and then in a few years the now 'legals' will vote R, I somehow think he's living in a different world than I am.

Posted by: HH at June 03, 2013 02:40 PM (XXwdv)

258 "I would only add that many of the amnesty supporters who are Republicans want to claim that this will be good for the Republican Party."

For the Country Club Goppership that has managed to keep one promise, to usurp the Tea Party which protested government corruption.

Below, from the "Carter Courier" newsletter:

R-TX Congressman John Carter, Chairman of the Homeland Security Appropriations Subcommittee, has been working with seven other House members on a comprehensive immigration bill for the last four years. The group, which is made up of four Republicans and four Democrats, is getting close to introducing the bill to Congress.

Posted by: Bro' Taser Co. at June 03, 2013 02:41 PM (MhA4j)

259
Either unchecked immigration (and amnesty) are a good idea for the nation, or they're not. If they are, we should support them. If they are not, we should oppose them.

How they would vote should not even be a question.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 03, 2013 02:32 PM (/PCJa)



I disagree on the first point. As long as it's the law, we should follow it. Whether it should be a benefit or a deficit to the nation should be expressed by changing the law to reflect the desired outcome, not by ignoring what *IS* the law. We should support what is the law.


On the second point, I agree absolutely. We should do what is right, whether it benefits us or not.

Posted by: Diogenes' Lamp at June 03, 2013 02:41 PM (bb5+k)

260 I'm still considering applying for disability as a social experiment.I'm sure I have at least one undiagnosed mental problem that could be turned into an "inability to work." (Social anxiety disorder for example.)
I'd be an under thirty, high IQ, college graduate, sponge. If that doesn't prove the system is borked nothing will.

Posted by: tsrblke at June 03, 2013 02:36 PM (GaqMa)

-----------------------------

When I was transitioning out of the Army, I had to sit through a class in which this DoD civilian / ex-Army fucking pogue explained to us all how to game the system into giving us at least partial, if not full disability. "Start going to sick call now and gettin' that paper trail, baby!" That bitch actually said that. Because that's what she had done when she left her REMF job.

I was fuming so fucking hard that it took all my self control to stay quiet. Didn't want to lose any rank for peeling this whore's face off.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 03, 2013 02:41 PM (CJjw5)

261 My friends. What really sold me on the whole amnesty thing was the mountain of treasure we'll be getting from these loyal, conservative immigrants in the form of back taxes.

Posted by: Fritz at June 03, 2013 02:42 PM (G9Mmf)

262 Yeah , just cause ol' Juan can pound the shit out of a 16 penny nail it doesn't make him a carpenter .
Jen want's it to be true , but it ain't . When all those Mcmansions start deteriorating like a chinese toy , then they'll know .
I wish every columnist had to compete against journos from the third world . Oh , but that's different , I didn't mean you could gore my ox .
fuck em' .

Posted by: awkward davies at June 03, 2013 02:42 PM (WK8VM)

263 It's almost as if living in the DC/NYC/Boston triangle makes you more leftist over time. Whoda thunkit?Posted by: Lemmenkainen
-------------

I prefer 'BosWash'..., it just has an appropriately contemptible sound about it. If you must, then, BosNyWash--- (Bahs-nee-wash)

Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 03, 2013 02:44 PM (aDwsi)

264 <i>illegal Mexicans "out of the shadows" </i>

The dirty little secret is that millions of them LIKE being "in the shadows". Not just for the few who are engaged in illegal activity, but for the many who are working for cash off the books, not filing sales tax returns when they sell from roadside stands (which are ubitquitous here in California), etc.

Heck, I increasingly think *I* would like to go into the shadows....

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 03, 2013 02:45 PM (ujg0T)

265 @220

Social conservatism among Catholics is dying.

The message of "social justice" gets a ton of emphasis and allocation of resources, especially in parishes with a significant population of hispanics.

And of course, "social justice" means welfare and government services, which not only defeats the idea that the Church will help to "conservatize" these immigrants, but shows that the Church is helping to foster that idea of government dependence.

I know because I happen to live in a parish where a majority of the Catholics are hispanic. The bulletin is mostly in espanol, the hymns are sometimes sung in spanish, and of course, any statue of the Blessed Mother is of Our Lady of Guadalupe, in full Mexican regalia. I drive out of my way to go to another parish where they keep the hispanic stuff down to a dull roar... can't take it.

Posted by: WolfinNC at June 03, 2013 02:45 PM (HVOxM)

266 Own goal?

Posted by: Jean at June 03, 2013 02:45 PM (z6Elp)

267 "I am a libertarian. The libertarian position is that immigration should be super easy... but also that the government should give no benefits and the tax rate should be very low. "

That sounds terriffic until we are swamped by "your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning...." to vote themselves generous public assistance program.

The libertarian position is a great place to begin any public policy debate, but Libertarians need to learn to think past declarative sentences. The Law of Unintended Consequences is an absolute bitch when you cross her.

Posted by: Rufus T. Firefly at June 03, 2013 02:46 PM (aOnaK)

268
Want to solve the immigration problem? Use liberal techniques.

Start complaining that the reason poor U.S. citizens aren't given more is that we have to pay for the non-citizens.

Why are welfare mothers only getting $700 a month when they could be getting $2000? Why are U.S. citizens standing in line at emergency rooms while doctors treat illegals?

Drive a wedge between poor citizens and the illegals. Let the free shit forces fight it out.

Posted by: jwest at June 03, 2013 02:48 PM (u2a4R)

269 <i>It's almost as if living in the DC/NYC/Boston triangle makes you more leftist over time. Whoda thunkit?Posted by: Lemmenkainen-------------I prefer 'BosWash'..., it just has an appropriately contemptible sound about it. If you must, then, BosNyWash--- (Bahs-nee-wash)</i>

In fairness, what happened to the "San-San" Republicans wasn't much better.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 03, 2013 02:49 PM (ujg0T)

270 The libertarian position is a great place to begin any public policy debate, but Libertarians need to learn to think past declarative sentences. The Law of Unintended Consequences is an absolute bitch when you cross her.


And she cunt punches hard.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 03, 2013 02:50 PM (t+DWU)

271 IRS hearing at 3:00 on CSPAN3.

Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at June 03, 2013 02:50 PM (X+nFp)

272
But then again, the anti-immigration forces believe many things that aren’t so.
__________________

Not half as many as you do, honey. You believe we can import and legalize tens of millions of low-skill, low-education, limited-English foreigners, and then bring in tens (or hundreds) of millions more of their similarly-unskilled and unschooledchain-migrating relatives,sign them all up for "free" education, subsidized housing, "free" food stamps, welfare, Obamacare subsidies, etc., and not go belly-up as a nation.

Posted by: Horrified Observer at June 03, 2013 02:50 PM (/sohm)

273
I was fuming so fucking hard that it took all my self control to stay quiet. Didn't want to lose any rank for peeling this whore's face off.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 03, 2013 02:41 PM (CJjw5)


I know several retirees on disability who try to convince others to get on it too. They are constantly urging others to milk the system any way it can be milked.


Posted by: Diogenes' Lamp at June 03, 2013 02:50 PM (bb5+k)

274 "I just don't understand. Gabe is a smart guy."

More like, Gabe the smartass brown nosing the revisionist grandkids of Sen.Goldwater. "Oh look, the hayseed sheriff bigot doesn't have a law degree like I do! Not that I'd lift a finger to volunteer the proper paperwork on behalf of what's right." Just couldn't ever find a single positive thing to say about AZ Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio. As if AZ weren't overrun with violent crime directly and illegally imported from (no-tolerance for gun owners or for immigrants Mexico) by Mexicans, aided by corrupt ATF/Justice Dept. AG Holder and Potus Obama "Fast and Furious." As if Arpaio were enforcing the law just to be a bitter clinging bigot, Gabe ignoring the work that Arpaio volunteers doing south of Mexico's border training anti-drug-cartel law enforcement officers in Central American governments.

Posted by: Bro' Taser Co. at June 03, 2013 02:51 PM (MhA4j)

275 "Black Leaders: Immigration Bill will harm workers"

In other headlines:

"Black Rancher's Ox Gored By Trespasser, Finally Seeks Sheriff"

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at June 03, 2013 02:52 PM (eHIJJ)

276 >> I agree. But when he said on that podcast that when amnesty is passed, and then in a few years the now 'legals' will vote R, I somehow think he's living in a different world than I am.

If you listen closely right around then, you'll hear me say something like, "we're not doing so hot with the other voters either".

Let's say everyone legalized becomes a citizen and they break 70/30 for the Dems. It's not gonna matter if we don't solve our overall messaging problem with ... just to name one of the many demos we lose big ... unmarried women.

Granted, it doesn't make things any easier, but the fate of the GOP doesn't really turn on what happens with the illegals one way or the other if we keep nominating McCains and Romneys, insist on using direct mail as our primary means of contact with voters, and generally fumble our way through every campaign.

Posted by: Andy at June 03, 2013 02:52 PM (9VF/x)

277 <i>Let's say everyone legalized becomes a citizen and they break 70/30 for the Dems. It's not gonna matter if we don't solve our overall messaging problem with ... just to name one of the many demos we lose big ... unmarried women. </i>

You might want to look up "Affordable Family Formation". Where it is easy, the GOP rules. Where it is not, the GOP fails. Excessive Immigration undercuts it. There would not *be* so many unmarried women if we had more of it.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 03, 2013 02:56 PM (ujg0T)

278 Rubin's salary is too high.

Posted by: Y-not on the phone at June 03, 2013 02:57 PM (5H6zj)

279 <i>Black Leaders: Immigration Bill will harm workers"In other headlines:"Black Rancher's Ox Gored By Trespasser, Finally Seeks Sheriff"</i>

And the difference between them an a "Neo-Con" is exactly what?
We all wise up differently.
Good to see them wising up too.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 03, 2013 02:58 PM (ujg0T)

280 Libertarians need to get over the fact that our Constitution is not a writ of libertarian ideals and principles. Otherwise we'd be Libertaria, Not America

Posted by: Marcus at June 03, 2013 02:58 PM (GGCsk)

281 ) Mexico

The geography is jaw dropping magnificent, for certain.

In Mexico you hear and read, "Gringo Go Home!" Also, that the Great American Southwest "belongs" to Mexico, despite whatever legitimacy that claim would like to make requiring basis as property/territory of Spain. Again, the mental disconnect, as Mexicans are neither Spaniards, nor a native indigenous tribe (those are persecuted by the Mexican government and Mexicans promoting Spanish blood). Mexicans may as well claim Spain as theirs, as to claim that CA/UT/AZ/NM/TX belong to Mexicans today. Treaties be damned. Just fork it over, Gringo. And luv them free benefits someone else pays for...

Posted by: Bro' Taser Co. at June 03, 2013 03:00 PM (MhA4j)

282 <i>The libertarian position is a great place to begin any public policy debate, but Libertarians need to learn to think past declarative sentences. The Law of Unintended Consequences is an absolute bitch when you cross her. And she cunt punches hard.</i>

Or is that "punts"? What is Rebecca Martinson up to nowadays?

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 03, 2013 03:01 PM (ujg0T)

283 Curmudgeon@279,

Just an observation. That they've (liberal demographics) plodded along so long without understanding is discouraging. Of course the silver lining is that they might -- might! -- be waking up. Let's hope it's contagious.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at June 03, 2013 03:03 PM (eHIJJ)

284 280 That resulting from your exhaustive constitutional research, biographical and correspondences of our founding fathers, or contemporary libertarian websites such as Mises.org or Daily Bell.

Libertarians need to get over the fact that Paultard! Marcus

Posted by: Bro' Taser Co. at June 03, 2013 03:04 PM (MhA4j)

285 Jen Rubin is just another blind , inside the beltway talking head that thinks she smarter than the rubes outside of D.C.



On a side note, her support of Romney did more harm than good
precisely because of thatmindset. How do you say thanks but no thanks if
you're Romney. Its a catch 22.

Posted by: polynikes at June 03, 2013 02:08 PM (m2CN7)


Willard would say it as awkwardly and clumsily as every fucking other thing that comes out of his grits hole. That's why he was such a marrrrrvelous candidate.

Posted by: Captain Hate at June 03, 2013 03:08 PM (2gaEN)

286 Libertarian style immigration only works when the Democrats are not allowed to create mendicant voter plantations.

This is all about blithering idiot big business Republicans trying to get low paid workers for their contributors.

They need to be removed from the party for being stupid whores. I can deal with a smart whore, but these ninnies don't rise to that level.

Posted by: Kristophr at June 03, 2013 03:16 PM (wYVte)

287 Rearding amnesty:

It occured to me the other day that if the Ratification debates were held today, the effort would fail. This is not to mean a vote for disunion would pass, or a vote on whether to renew the marriage, take new vows would fail. Those would be very different things, and in particular the second, hope for a resurrection of the previous glorious love would prevent a nay (Hope over experience being a standard of relationships).

No, in my hypothetical, it is still 2013, but the charter before us to approve or disapprove is the one we have now, there is either no union, or it is probationary and needs final confirmation, *and* we know how it turns out--because we live it. That true federalism would not be had, and an apparently unstoppable Leviathanic central government, with a ruling elite not exactly punctilious about the rules, would be the apparent end state. So, under that scenario, would you approve your state joining the Union? Yes or no?

You might want to think about that, because there is a distinct possibility you might get to participate in such a ratification debate in twenty, thirty years.

For a larger union, say a super-Maastricht treaty. U.S., EU, Turkey, some odd Muslim states. Not global, but a union nonetheless. One that, based upon the two unions extant so far (U.S., EU), would inevitably be a highly centralized government hard to stop, and one set on trying to smother individual differences (states in the U.S., nations in the EU). Its not that I say anyone is arguing for such a thing right now, or deliberately working for it, just that the trends are lining up for such a thing to be attempted. In twenty to thirty years, as I said.

Now, here's the rub. Today such a thing would fall flat (assuming our overlords allowed us a vote on it in the style of the Ratification conventions, which would require some pitchforking to guarantee, because they might not without pushback. They always know better....).

But twenty years from now...well, Georgia, North Carolina, and Texas may not be in the Red column by then. No matter what happens today with amnesty. Who knows what else might happen. Especially *with* amnesty.

Now, if we held to prior precedent, it would require three-quarters of the states voting yes to ratify, and that couldn't be had today, as I said. But it is important to keep in mind that it would not require three-quarters *within* a state. Just a majority. Say, something like 52-48%. Now, voting for such an international union would be folly, but would such practical arguments stand against the willingness to put hopes for a gauzy idealistic future, the willingness to vote for something to make yourself feel like you are participating in something historic, to feel noble, to feel hip, cool, "with it", to show that you are loving of minorities and others, to keep faith with glorious hip leaders like a very grey haired Barack Obama (coming out of retirement to support it), in short, the willingness to put hope over experience, over all else.

When the hell has that ever happened?

And what are the chances of it happening with amnesty, or without it? Three-quarters of the states voting "yes", by very narrow margins in most of them?

Choose wisely.

Posted by: "All Good Things..." at June 03, 2013 03:22 PM (q35oz)

288 "46
I am certain Jennifer's wages are too high. Metaphysically certain.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows freedom is slavery at June 03, 2013 01:58 PM (xw77v)"

It certainly seems that it ought to be technically feasible to outsource column writing to India. You could have a bunch of people who spend all their time on the internet, not just surfing for news stories but US human interest and watching popular entertainment on Netflix. Then have them crank out columns to spec.

I know for an absolute fact that they could do this for less than what the Washington Post pays Jenifer Rubin. I read recently that the same guy wrote "The Hardy Boys", "Nancy Drew" and "Tom Swift" books. You could probably put together a group to crank out opinion pieces that could replace most of the editorial pages of most newspapers. Times are hard and the papers need to save money. It is for the greater good and all that.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at June 03, 2013 03:24 PM (31Nrp)

289 Should be "regarding amnesty", not "rearding". Apologies.

And as far as Rubin--we can depress wages even more if we got children back to work again. And why our lack of sweatshop conditions in our factories? Surely this inflates salaries?

We must be just like the rest of the world to compete, correct?

Posted by: "All Good Things..." at June 03, 2013 03:26 PM (q35oz)

290 "but I also don't see anything wrong with favoring Americans over the rest of the world when it comes to competing for jobs in this country."

Ah, the "fixed number of jobs" fallacy rears its head.

Posted by: Michelle Chewbama at June 03, 2013 04:23 PM (EX+sq)

291 #290- 7.5% unemployment. Take your neocon microeconomics 101-level theorizing elsewhere.

Posted by: infovore at June 03, 2013 04:46 PM (H1v/m)

292 Despite the supposed benefits of globalism, I have never seen boats come here to take our urban poor. They just stay here.

Apparently they're our problem.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at June 03, 2013 06:08 PM (N9W/4)






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