Sunday Morning Book Thread 02-10-2013: February Is Black History Month [OregonMuse]


washingtonDuBois.jpg


Good morning morons and moronettes, and welcome the Sunday Morning Book Thread.

On last week's book thread, what with the Africa theme and all, I should have mentioned the novels of The British author H. Rider Haggard. He wrote a crapload of adventure novels, the most well-known are probably King Solomon's Mines, She, and Allan Quartermain. Pretty much all of Haggard's novels were set in Africa, a dark and mysterious, yet exotically attractive locale in the Victorian English mind. They're available for free on Gutenberg or really cheap on Kindle.

I first found out about Haggard through no less a writer than C.S. Lewis, who mentioned him in his essay 'On Stories', specifically, how the Hollywood movie version of King Solomon's Mines ruins everything Lewis enjoyed about the ending of the book.

That essay by Lewis, by the way, is a good one to read, particularly for writers.

But getting back to this morning's topic...


Two Views

Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. Du Bois were two leaders of the early, post-slavery-era black civil rights movement. I've selected them because they each represent two different philosophies of how African-Americans should best recover from the injustices imposed on them by slavery and racism.

Here is Wikipedia's description of Washington's approach:

Washington advocated a "go slow" approach to avoid a harsh white backlash.[16] The effect was that many youths in the South had to accept sacrifices of potential political power, civil rights and higher education.[17] His belief was that African-Americans should "concentrate all their energies on industrial education, and accumulation of wealth, and the conciliation of the South." [18] Washington valued the "industrial" education, as it provided critical skills for the jobs then available to the majority of African-Americans at the time, as most lived in the South, which was overwhelmingly rural and agricultural. He thought these skills that would lay the foundation for the creation of stability that the African-American community required in order to move forward. He believed that in the long term "blacks would eventually gain full participation in society by showing themselves to be responsible, reliable American citizens." His approach advocated for an initial step toward equal rights, rather than full equality under the law. It would be this step that would provide the economic power to back up their demands for equality in the future.[19]

In contrast, Du Bois

...insisted on full civil rights and increased political representation, which he believed would be brought about by the African-American intellectual elite. He referred to this group as the talented tenth and believed that African Americans needed the chances for advanced education to develop its leadership.

[He] wanted blacks to have the same "classical" liberal arts education as upscale whites did, along with voting rights and civic equality. He believed that an elite he called the Talented Tenth would advance to lead the race to a wider variety of occupations

Naturally, these two views resulted in two different agendas, and they butted heads:

Washington's 1895 Atlanta Exposition address was viewed as a "revolutionary moment"[16] by both African-Americans and whites across the country. Then Du Bois supported him, but they grew apart as Du Bois sought more action to remedy disenfranchisement and lower education. After their falling out, Du Bois and his supporters referred to Washington's speech as the "Atlanta Compromise" to express their criticism that Washington was too accommodating to white interests.

I must say I'm not a big fan of Du Bois' "talented tenth" idea, which to me sounds elitist, and too much like the "revolutionary vanguard" that Vladimir Lenin said would lead us all into the glorious communist paradise. Not that Du Bois was a out-and-out commie, but as time went on, he liked to hang out more and more with the third-world "non-aligned" (i.e. anti-U.S) crowd and like Jimmy Carter, I don't think he ever met a socialist or a third world thug dictator he didn't like.

Also, from an earlier thread, anyone who speaks of the necessity of "elites" or "central planning" always views himself as being one of the elite planners. This alone is reason enough to view any and all such pronouncements with extreme suspicion.

I think the difference in the background of these two leaders is interesting as well. Washington

was born into slavery to Jane, an enslaved woman, and a white father. His father was a nearby planter, in a rural area of the southwestern Virginia Piedmont. After emancipation, his mother moved the family to rejoin her husband in West Virginia; there Washington worked in a variety of manual labor jobs before making his way to Hampton Roads seeking an education. He worked his way through Hampton Normal and Agricultural Institute (now Hampton University) and attended college at Wayland Seminary (now Virginia Union University)

Du Bois, however,

was born in western Massachusetts...grew up in a tolerant community and experienced little racism as a child. After graduating from Harvard, where he was the first African American to earn a doctorate, he became a professor of history, sociology and economics at Atlanta University. Du Bois was one of the co-founders of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) in 1909.

Ironic that the one who experienced slavery first hand was the one advocating the more conciliatory approach.

Also, it looks like there was this "blue collar" v. "white collar" thing going on here between the two.

These two men are still with us today. The spiritual descendents of W.E.B. Du Bois, who seem to hold the dominant position, are Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright, etc. Booker T. Washington's descendents are represented by men such as Walter E. Williams, Thomas Sowell, Herman Cain, and lately, Dr. Benjamin Carter Carson.

I'm not sure where I would put Martin Luther King, Jr. Probably with the Du Bois group.

Washington and Du Bois each wrote a number of books. Du Bois' best known work is The Souls of Black Folk (1905). Washington wrote his famous autobiography, Up From Slavery (1901)

By the way, any of you clowns who makes the "I especially liked Booker T. Washington when he was with his band, the MGs" joke will be summarily consigned to the barrel for the duration.


Morons What Write Books

Moron commenter zimreal has written his first book, a historical investigation concerning the formation of Islam, House of War: Mecca, the Qur'an, and the Propaganda of 675-695 Amazon says

The Islamic second civil war raged across the Near East from 682 until 692. It was the formative event in the religion’s history. Islam before the war is best described as a contract between the Arab amirs and their subjects. The war tested that model to its limit. The combatants’ points of contention included who was to lead the amirate, who could properly call himself a Muslim, and where it was that God had established His House. As they fought, the dueling sides made use of a new weapon, that their Lord had bequeathed to them – the Qur’an.


Recommendations From Morons

Tom Francis emails to recommend The Devil's In The Cows, a book of "flash fiction" from Sippican Cottage:

Sippican Cottage offers 37 sly vignettes, with all the life you can handle in every paragraph. His method: choose a random picture from the Library of Congress and then infuse it with all the warmth and pathos his imagination and heart can muster.

___________


So that's all for this week. As always, book thread tips, suggestions, rumors, and insults may be sent to OregonMuse, Proprietor, AoSHQ Book Thread, at aoshqbookthread@gmail.com.

So what have you all been reading this week? Hopefully something good. because life is too short to read lousy books.

Posted by: Open Blogger at 10:55 AM



Comments

1 Harry Stein's excellent book "No Matter What, They'll Call This Book Racist" has an entire chapter that compares/contrasts Washington and DuBois.

Very well worth the read.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 10, 2013 10:58 AM (XkWWK)

2 I've been reading "Albion's Seed". I may have seen it recommended here, I can't remember. In any case, it is a very interesting exploration of early American immigration from England, and the impact that the region of origin had on the American region in which they settled. The four main groups were East Anglia (Puritans), south and west England (Virginia cavaliers), North midlands Delaware and PA Quakers), and the Scots-Irish north (Appalachia). The regional characteristics can be seen to this day in language, food, and general approach to life. It's long but a very interesting read.

Posted by: pep at February 10, 2013 11:00 AM (6TB1Z)

3 Further to my comment, the left always sings DuBois' praises and has always tried to discredit/marginalize Booker T. Washington.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 10, 2013 11:01 AM (XkWWK)

4 Hey, thanks !

(And thanks also to the 'rons who bought the first "book", the essay-collection.)

Posted by: zimriel at February 10, 2013 11:02 AM (QTHTd)

5 I finally finished "Middlemarch" (it's a long book and I'm a very slow reader) which was expectedly wonderful and I'm glad I finally pulled it off my bookshelf where it's languished since the 80s when I bought it at a library sale.

I've just started "Europe Central" by William Vollman which, from early reactions, is kind of like a fictional version of "Bloodlands" since it concentrates on fictional tales of how the Nazis and Commies combined to fuck over central Europe. This seems to be done very much in the style of Danilo Kis, a Serb writer who really drove the commies insane, by writing stories using real characters but inserting fictional details that cloud the waters. Very good stuff.

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 10, 2013 11:03 AM (6kwNg)

6 Posted by: pep at February 10, 2013 11:00 AM (6TB1Z)



Thanks for that synopsis; I'm now *officially* interested in it.

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 10, 2013 11:04 AM (6kwNg)

7 When are the complaints going to come that putting Black History Month in the shortest month of the year is RAAAACCCISSSSSSTTTT

Posted by: kbdabear at February 10, 2013 11:06 AM (mCvL4)

8 I'd like to send out my thanks for all the Morons who bought free copies of my book last week. Enjoy, and in the immortal words of Jack Gordon-

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step---but get directions first."

Posted by: Seamus Throckmorton Muldoon- leans right at February 10, 2013 11:10 AM (qqZuQ)

9 W.E.B. Du Bois was a communist which is where MLK got his funding. That is why the left loves him.

and books?

Finished Mistborn trilogy and started another old one,

Alien Taste by Wen Spencer. If you folks haven’t read that series you need to check it out.


http://is.gd/33dsvY

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 11:10 AM (53z96)

10 congrats zim

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at February 10, 2013 11:11 AM (GVxQo)

11 An important book - not a good book, but an important one - is "Why We Can't Wait" by Martin Luther King, Jr.

There
he explains why the government must act to institute drastic
affirmative-action programmes for blacks in particular. This
affirmative-action regime should last until blacks themselves decide
that they forgive whites for racism and slavery.

And when would that be? In this book, "No

amount of gold could provide an adequate compensation
for the
exploitation and humiliation of the Negro in America
down through
the centuries." He speaks of infinities: so while SOME blacks might decide they forgive whites, MLK personally will not, ever, and further MLK will think ill of those blacks who do. If there is
anyone with more white blood than you do, he owes you, forever. This is
the mindset of Haiti.

Now, let us please quit citing MLK as a crusader for a colour-blind society.

Posted by: zimriel at February 10, 2013 11:12 AM (QTHTd)

12 Gung Hay Fat Choy

Posted by: phoenixgirl ♥Gung Hay Fat Choy at February 10, 2013 11:17 AM (GVxQo)

13 And when would that be? In this book, "No


Nice inadvertent line break. It made the most sense this way.

Posted by: pep at February 10, 2013 11:17 AM (6TB1Z)

14 Oh they're paying us back in a big way.

Posted by: USS Diversity at February 10, 2013 11:18 AM (QLJPW)

15 thank you, pg!

The book's actually been out since July but I was waiting for some Amazon reviews to come in before flogging the book on this site.

Posted by: zimriel at February 10, 2013 11:18 AM (QTHTd)

16 Will there be rum with the floggings?

Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes...... at February 10, 2013 11:20 AM (Md8Uo)

17 No flogging, just the lash. The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 11:23 AM (VpkjW)

18 Not that Du Bois was a out-and-out commie, but as time went on, he liked
to hang out more and more with the third-world "non-aligned" (i.e.
anti-U.S) crowd and like Jimmy Carter, I don't think he ever met a
socialist or a third world thug dictator he didn't like.



But he was an "out and out commie". He sang the praises of communism constantly. He worshiped Mao and Stalin. He didn't carry a card but he was as Red as he could get.

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 11:23 AM (53z96)

19 I just finished reading Penthouse Forum, BBL.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at February 10, 2013 11:24 AM (6IKyK)

20 Washington, DuBois, and King et al. would crap if they could see how easily blacks have allowed themselves to become re-enslaved, this time for the promise of a few bucks through perpetual victim entitlement payments.

The Dems need the votes of poor, stupid people to get their power, and they therefore need poor, stupid people to stay poor and stupid in order to keep their power. If these folks became independent and well-informed they wouldn't need the Dems anymore because they would take care of themselves, and like the rest of us quickly come to resent the burden of taking care of a permanent freeloading underclass.

The Dems therefore teach blacks in particular (who have shining examples like the gentlemen identified above but also have poor, stupid elements in vastly disproportionate percentages relative to their absolute numbers) that they not only aren't succeeding in life because of historical disadvantage but that the cannot and will not succeed because of institutional racism.

Their goal is not to give poor blacks a hand up as they claim, but rather just what it looks like to any reasonably objective observer: hand outs to permanently under-performing victims who the Dems don't want to succeed because they need an army of permanent low-information voters to keep their power.

Of course all of this flies in the face of logic and reason. The truth is that poor, stupid people fail not because they are a particular color or class when they begin life, but rather because they use their condition as an excuse for subsequent poor decision making.

The further truth is that, in America, if blacks will stay off drugs and alcohol, not have or father children until they are ready, and take responsibility for their own education and job skill set, they will likely succeed at least to some extent within our capitalist system.

Or, they can let race-baiting hacks like Ed Schultz, Chris Matthews, Toure and Al Sharpton speak for them, and justify their failings as a natural consequence of racism.

As I regularly say, you can be either a victim or an equal but you can't be both. That said, I can't help but be surprised how many people trade the freedom that comes with equality for a subsistence-level check from the government, but the facts speak for themselves.

People in large numbers, and blacks in particular, apparently choose this sorry path as their way of life, even though they are essentially prisoners with the keys to their release hanging around their own necks.

Posted by: Blacksheep at February 10, 2013 11:24 AM (bS6uW)

21 Congrats, zim, it does seem to match the latter half of Tom Holland's investigation of Islam, since the first half was exposition about the other two Religions of the Book.

Posted by: archie goodwin at February 10, 2013 11:25 AM (Jsiw/)

22 pep, what's also kinda interesting is that my part of Albion - the west Midlands - was such a backwater as of 1700 or so that it did not contribute to America's founding stock. My ancestors got here later, and in my case I guess I am an ancestor (off the plane in 197.

We are the folk who inspired Tolkien's Shire. There was also a lot of coal-mining and other industrial stuff going on, but not before 1700, really.

I am told that a lot of West Midlanders became Mormons and flocked over to join Brigham Young. We generally stocked up the mining areas of Nevada and Colorado as well. We didn't leave much of a mark, though.

Posted by: zimriel at February 10, 2013 11:25 AM (QTHTd)

23 I've been reading The Cambridge Illustrated History of Germany (I think it's a textbook but I can't quite decide which grade level...) and Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter (because I am a scholar in my spare time, dammit).

My township library starts the Winter Reading Program tomorrow. Every 500 pages logged gets an entry into the prize drawings, so it's all about the quantity, not the quality. Last winter I it took me three weeks to get mostly through Ben Hur and it wasn't even 300 pages. Pffft.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™, Crankypants Extraordinaire at February 10, 2013 11:27 AM (hO8IJ)

24 Smokey Robinson on why he loves being an American and why the term African-American is stupid

http://goo.gl/LBVfB

Posted by: Jose/ningrim at February 10, 2013 11:27 AM (srIqv)

25

Dammit.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™, Crankypants Extraordinaire at February 10, 2013 11:27 AM (hO8IJ)

26 I'm still working through The Road to Serfdom, and I'm currently on the chapter about how collectivism distorts truth.

I'm at almost 11000 words on this short story, and I'm hoping that I can finish the rough draft today.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at February 10, 2013 11:28 AM (hpDVh)

27 Into the barrel.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at February 10, 2013 11:28 AM (6IKyK)

28 Last comment on Du Bois: google "W. E. B. Du Bois accepting Lenin Peace Prize at Soviet embassy". In 1960, this was.

Ironic bit: I was actually looking for that speech in which Du Bois praised Lenin, which gets cited here and there when the topic of "liberal fascism" pops up or, sometimes, when a Communist is trying to say his movement was for civil rights before it was cool.

Posted by: zimriel at February 10, 2013 11:28 AM (QTHTd)

29 16 Will there be rum with the floggings?
Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes...... at February 10, 2013 11:20 AM (Md8Uo)

17 No flogging, just the lash. The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 11:23 AM (VpkjW)


Perhaps we'll at least be spared the sodomy

Posted by: zimriel at February 10, 2013 11:30 AM (QTHTd)

30 Booker T. Washington's approach, summed up as hard work and patience, would have better served the black community. W.E.B. Du Bois's approach, however, was what the blacks generally selected, and the result is not union, but division.

Posted by: Mr_Write at February 10, 2013 11:30 AM (4bU4I)

31 Currently reading "Ready Player One" and enjoying it. I guess I was more steeped in 80's culture than I realized--and yes, my first computer program was written on a Trash-80. Also trying to read "The Pirate Coast" and struggling with the author's propensity to write like a tabloid columnist (do I really need to know how many times Eaton knocked up his wife? *Somebody* isn't getting laid, I think.)

And in personal book news, the advanced reader copy of my latest book is now available at my online store (link in name). Another tale of space adventure, in a different world than the Sequoyah books--the truth about Pluto, alien AI, computer geeks in spaaaace, and what really happened to the Neanderthals!

(For the typo-sensitive and the budget-limited Morons among us, the proofed and cheaper version will be coming out mid- to late-March)

Posted by: Sabrina Chase at February 10, 2013 11:31 AM (wfSF5)

32 I can't help but be surprised how many people trade the freedom that
comes with equality for a subsistence-level check from the government


That is a constant of the human condition. There is always a fraction, possibly a majority, of people for whom making your own way in the world is too stressful. They'd rather someone else take care of the thinking, even if their own life is diminished by it.

IMO, the thing that makes a society lean toward dependncy or away from it, as we used to be, is the elites. A better way to describe them is the opinion makers-since there is nothing elite about many of them (see Deb the Asteroid worshipper). Unfortunately, at this time, those are the media, the Chomskys, and the Dem politicians. They make the sheep think it is okay to behave this way.

Posted by: pep at February 10, 2013 11:31 AM (6TB1Z)

33 The further truth is that, in America, if blacks will stay off drugs and
alcohol, not have or father children until they are ready, and take
responsibility for their own education and job skill set, they will
likely succeed at least to some extent within our capitalist system.




Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell have stated that continuously over and over again in a multitude of articles and books. The quickest route to poverty in the US is dropping out of school and having a baby by some unknown father who subsequently disappears. And it doesn't matter what race you are or where you come from.


The reason so many blacks or poor is because 75% of all black children are born out of wedlock and grow up in those "single parent" homes supported by the government.



Which is why 75% are born that way. It is an industry now. Sowell screams about this constantly. Welfare is forcing blacks into poverty. Before LBJ and the great welfare society black illegitimacy was roughly the same as whites, low.

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 11:33 AM (53z96)

34
>>Which is why 75% are born that way. It is an industry now. Sowell screams about this constantly. Welfare is forcing blacks into poverty. <<

I have a solution.

Posted by: Zombie Maggie Sanger at February 10, 2013 11:36 AM (PKj3J)

35 This is going to sound dickheadish, but I really hate acknowledging black history month.

Just more dividing us up into little groups.

I recognize and acknowlege that blacks, as a group, got shit upon for a long time in this country.

But the premise of black history month is that we don't TODAY teach about or have an appreciation for influential blacks in our country's history.

But that just isn't true, is it?

I don't mean to be critical of this post. I'm just saying ... as soon as I read the title, it rubbed me the wrong way.

Maybe it's not a big deal?

I don't know.

Maybe it isn't a bit deal.

Posted by: Warden at February 10, 2013 11:38 AM (0DlnM)

36 Is March white history month?

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 11:38 AM (53z96)

37 36
Is March white history month?


Every month is white history month. Cracker.

Posted by: Al Sharpton, racial healer at February 10, 2013 11:41 AM (6TB1Z)

38 Just finished Monster Hunters International by noted B-movie and gun enthusiast Larry Correia. I give it a big thumbs up if you are into that sort of thing.

Posted by: Darth Randall at February 10, 2013 11:42 AM (mV8sg)

39 May I humbly suggest that I agree with Booker T Washington in that a Black Mathematics Month or a Black Physics Month would be more productive?

Posted by: AmishDude at February 10, 2013 11:43 AM (xSegX)

40 Anyone want to tackle writing a unique ship history? USS Stewart DD-224
http://www.answers.com/topic/uss-stewart-dd-224

Probably the only US Navy ship to be 'destroyed' in dock to be resurrected by an enemy and used against the US Navy.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 11:44 AM (VpkjW)

41 I'd like to send out my thanks for all the Morons who bought free copies of my book last week. Enjoy, and in the immortal words of Jack Gordon-

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step---but get directions first."
Posted by: Seamus Throckmorton Muldoon- leans right at February 10, 2013 11:10 AM (qqZuQ)

It was very good. The best or worst part of it is it's true.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 11:44 AM (l86i3)

42 It seems to me that having Black History Month is an unspoken admittance that there are still Wrongs That Need To Be Righted.

I don't think this is true, though.

I don't think that blacks have any more roadblocks to success in front of them than whites.

Unless
you're talking about growing up in fatherless homes--but that's not a
social ill imposed upon their community by whites, now is it?

Posted by: Warden at February 10, 2013 11:45 AM (0DlnM)

43 King Solomon's Mines is available on Kindle for free. At least, that's how I got it.
Very fun tale, worth the few of hours it'd take to read it.

I'd have to go back and re-read them, but it seems in the "escaped slave narratives" I've read (like Frederick Douglass), these former slaves carried far less anger than 99% of today's never-knew-a-slave, never-knew-anyone-who-knew-a-slave black youths.

Seems to me, they might have had a more civilized notion that slavery is one man dehumanizing another and being angry all the time is dehumanizing yourself.

Posted by: RoyalOil at February 10, 2013 11:45 AM (VjL9S)

44 Just gonna head straight for the barrel. No passing go. No collecting $200.
But before I do, Open Blogger is a killjoy!
Now it'll be just a man alone with his thoughts,,, and his smart phone,,, and a music folder,,, with Booker T. & the MG's.

Posted by: teej at February 10, 2013 11:45 AM (5gfow)

45
Why does everybody always dismiss Marcus Garvey? I always thought he was the most interesting of the post-bellum black leaders.

Posted by: Ed Anger at February 10, 2013 11:45 AM (tOkJB)

46 May I humbly suggest that I agree with Booker T Washington in that a Black Mathematics Month or a Black Physics Month would be more productive?
Posted by: AmishDude at February 10, 2013 11:43 AM (xSegX)


Through in black reading month and you may have something.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 11:45 AM (l86i3)

47
Through in black reading month and you may have something.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 11:45 AM (l86i3)

Dammit, thank god for etitors, Throw I meant, throw.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 11:46 AM (l86i3)

48
I have long pondered the plight of populations of ex-slaves / subjegated who freed themselves v those who were freed by the actions of others.

My anecdotal research points to thisbeing an important step in the development of a culture.

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 11:46 AM (PKj3J)

49 A commentor on Twitchy wrote that the biggest no negro sign was the ones at the exit of the democratic plantation.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 11:49 AM (l86i3)

50 Anna @ 17 - But thewe wiw be sodomy, right?

Posted by: bahney fwank at February 10, 2013 11:50 AM (nK2Sx)

51
OSP -- I got my copy last weekend. I think I'll finish it today.

Posted by: Ed Anger at February 10, 2013 11:53 AM (tOkJB)

52 Washington, DuBois, and King et al. would crap if they could see how
easily blacks have allowed themselves to become re-enslaved, this time
for the promise of a few bucks through perpetual victim entitlement
payments.
========
Some, but not most. As noted, today's "civil rights" leaders are the intellectual heirs of those men, holding near the same ideas.
Remember: Those communists back then were on top and could safely espouse those radical views because they were on top. Same today: It's easy being a radical when being a radical keeps you in gold and wine.

Truth is, there is a large faction that "leads" but cares nothing about those being led--they do it for the perks of power alone.

Posted by: RoyalOil at February 10, 2013 11:53 AM (VjL9S)

53 Been reading Xenephon's Anabasis. I've been ignoring the old classics lately, and it's good to get back to them.

Posted by: junior at February 10, 2013 11:56 AM (oJ1sK)

54 ZAP
Only warning.

Posted by: Tours Lepanto Vienna at February 10, 2013 11:57 AM (SBdwW)

55 OSP -- I got my copy last weekend. I think I'll finish it today.
Posted by: Ed Anger at February 10, 2013 11:53 AM (tOkJB)

Thank you very much. If you could, please write a review on Amazon. Once again. Thank you.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 11:58 AM (l86i3)

56 Posted by: Tours Lepanto Vienna at February 10, 2013 11:57 AM (SBdwW)

Cobbloggers, PLEASE BOUNCE THIS STUPID RACIST POS.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 11:59 AM (l86i3)

57 I've finished the 13-volume Lemony Snickets e-book. There are a number of things he does that don't work well on the Kindle (graphical teasers for the next volume, volume 12 has a lot of backwards text that he includes graphically, stuff like that) and a number of e-book conversion issues (there are a few places in the middle of volume 10 that still have page numbers, dashes and apostrophes in the prefaces aren't handled by the Kindle, although there is no problem with them in the main text), but the stories are pleasant and there are few misspellings (the most annoying being that he doesn't seem to know that "drag" when referring to a parachute is spelled "drogue"), but the stories are fun.

I've also finished Aquariums of Pyongyang, about the life of a fellow who grew up in one of North Korea's labor camps. There a number of annoying misspellings (most annoyingly, "roll call" is spelled correctly the *first* time it is used, but spelled as "role call" *every* subsequent time) and some formatting issues (a number of paragraphs don't have indents, a number of dashes don't work on the Kindle, smashing words together), but the story is interesting and informative.

And my e-mail brings me news this morning that Sabrina Chase has made an advance copy of her latest book, "Scent of Metal", available through her website to all of us who just can't wait. It is, of course, expensive to encourage those of you who *can* wait to wait until the editing is done. I really can't recommend her stuff enough; the lady can write. And yes, I've read and recommend this one. http://tinyurl.com/afgy2gv

Posted by: Assault Citizen Anachronda at February 10, 2013 12:00 PM (1c58W)

58 Du Bois' approach is ingrained today.

First, there is the view that it is important for black elites to gain positions of political power to help "bring up" everyone else.

Of course, they gain that political power by being leaders of blacks and that isn't effective if they aren't leading a downtrodden underclass. Nobody listens to leaders of an integrated, largely middle-class minority.

Also of course, it's ripe for corruption. The elites get theirs and every other black person gets crumbs at best, social pathologies on average.

It isn't surprising that people of Du Bois' or Obama's relatively privileged background would seek this system. Regardless of their race, they want political power and control. All of a sudden, they discover that demographics give them a small pond in which they'd be a big fish.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 10, 2013 12:01 PM (xSegX)

59 crunch. munch, munch, munch
Mmm, green onions.

Posted by: teej at February 10, 2013 12:01 PM (SYS+p)

60 How about a "finally get your damn shit together month"?

Posted by: TexasJew at February 10, 2013 12:01 PM (lD8ju)

61 Great mini-essay about Washington vs. Du Bois. One believed in hard work and individual initiative, while the other wanted to use the power of government.

Posted by: rickl at February 10, 2013 12:01 PM (sdi6R)

62 OTOH, considering the way the Court in Plessy, had so brutally disregarded the law, leading to the epidemic of lynchings, it's somewhat understandable
that some might lose faith in the system. I'm not excusing it, but it does explain some things.

Posted by: archie goodwin at February 10, 2013 12:01 PM (Jsiw/)

63 I'm very close to finishing my vampire-porn novel with the girl-every-girl-wants-to-be sympathetic, admirable, iconic, and too-good-to-be-true heroine. And, of course, the god-like alpha male supporting character that goes absolutely beta in her presence. 'Cause she's just that good.

Posted by: zsasz at February 10, 2013 12:02 PM (MMC8r)

64 USS Stewart

see USS Merrimac/CSS Virginia

Posted by: Fox2! at February 10, 2013 12:03 PM (1Qpmy)

65 40
Anyone want to tackle writing a unique ship history? USS Stewart DD-224
http://www.answers.com/topic/uss-stewart-dd-224

Probably the only US Navy ship to be 'destroyed' in dock to be resurrected by an enemy and used against the US Navy.


Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 11:44 AM (VpkjW)

Technically incorrect. Nearly 80 years before, the Merrimac was destroyed in place at drydock at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth, VA and captured and rebuilt as the CSS Virginia. You may have heard of it - it fought the USS Monitor in the first "Battle of the Ironclads".
Fun fact - they named a bridge near where the Battle was fought the "Monitor-Merrimac Memorial Bridge Tunnel". Why Merrimac and not Virginia? Because history belongs to the victors.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at February 10, 2013 12:03 PM (rqlRk)

66 Washington vs. DuBois is like Keynes vs. Hayek--

The 'elites' support the one that makes them 'elite.'

Posted by: zsasz at February 10, 2013 12:04 PM (MMC8r)

67 Because history belongs to the victors.
Posted by: Jeff Weimer at February 10, 2013 12:03 PM (rqlRk)

Yep, as my Marine friend likes to say, The winners write the history.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 12:05 PM (l86i3)

68
Which is why 75% are born that way. It is an
industry now. Sowell screams about this constantly. Welfare is forcing
blacks into poverty. Before LBJ and the great welfare society black
illegitimacy was roughly the same as whites, low.


Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 11:33 AM (53z96)
This is a topic I argue often. LBJ was an old style Racist Democrat from the South. After the 24th amendment was passed, Johnson decided to grab those newly enfranchised voters by creating programs that would endear them to him.

The "War on Poverty" was nothing but a Vote Buying/Vote Farming scheme which has worked to perfection. The Republicans who pushed and voted for the 24th amendment got the tables turned on them by Sleazy Lyndon Johnson.



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at February 10, 2013 12:05 PM (bb5+k)

69 Congratulations to zimreal!

Posted by: TexasJew at February 10, 2013 12:05 PM (lD8ju)

70 Fitting for the book thread. This was just published on FB by CJ Cherryh

A hint for brand new writers struggling with time-lapse in a book or story. One key to the problem lies in viewpoint. In a tightly viewpointed book, that viewpoint, as internal narrator, can bridge the gap with a snarky thought. If you're gods'-eye viewpoint, you just play Zeus and declare it. BUT...it needs to be a meaningful (and fairly rare) gap in the action, ie, it needs to be both natural and something the reader is glad to skip. If your fantasy map advertises The Great Sandy Desert and you gloss it, your reader will be a little miffed. The solution for THAT gap is redraw the map, eliminate The Great Sandy Desert and move The Mystic Mountain closer. You can do that with plots, too: eliminate the boring thing and move something interesting and relevant much closer.
HTH.

CJ Cherryh

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 12:05 PM (VpkjW)

71 I don't think that blacks have any more roadblocks to success in front of them than whites.

I think you underestimate the crippling effect that always having racism to blame puts on the human soul. The most important realization in human development is understanding that your failures might be your fault after all.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 10, 2013 12:06 PM (xSegX)

72 "God's Battalions" by Rodney Stark gives the Christian slant on the Crusades. May be a bit stretched in some parts, but it is interesting to read the other side of the story. There is no doubt that in many cases the Crusades were a reaction to Muslim incursions into Europe--a facet which is largely ignored. Give it a spin; worth your time.

Posted by: Libra at February 10, 2013 12:06 PM (cMWZ+)

73 Washington vs. DuBois is like Keynes vs. Hayek--

The 'elites' support the one that makes them 'elite.'


Well-put.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 10, 2013 12:07 PM (xSegX)

74 #24 Further to my comment, the left always sings DuBois' praises and has always tried to discredit/marginalize Booker T. Washington.

I taught at Morgan State Univerity (a Historically Black University where the student body was approximately 98% Black) for a few years. I heard Dubois was revered and mentioned regularly. Washington, not so much. It was pretty eye-opening to see how the Black student's worldview and experience differed so much from mine.

While I was there, I corresponded with Sowell a few times. He sendme signed copies of two of his Economics books (along with a nice letter thanking me for a few lines he later used in columns). They're among my most prized possessions. I bought a few extra copies just to lend out to students so that they could see that the "Black" world view wasn't monolithic.

Posted by: RightWingProf at February 10, 2013 12:07 PM (E/o+q)

75 57
(the
most annoying being that he doesn't seem to know that "drag" when
referring to a parachute is spelled "drogue")


----------

Whadda ya know; I checked over at dictionary.com and I'm wrong; according to them, "drag parachute" is acceptable.

Someday I'll have implants that allow me to check that stuff internaly before I make a fool of myself...


Posted by: Assault Citizen Anachronda at February 10, 2013 12:08 PM (1c58W)

76 Posted by: RightWingProf at February 10, 2013 12:07 PM (E/o+q)

Wow, that is awesome.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 12:08 PM (l86i3)

77 I wonder what Washington would have thought about Obamaphones..

Posted by: TexasJew at February 10, 2013 12:09 PM (lD8ju)

78 There you go again, bringing up that pesky War of Northern Aggression.

Had forgotten about her. USS Stewart's story has always struck me and stuck with me since reading Theodore Roscoe's book on US destroyer operations in WWII. Some of that article actually is borrowing from Roscoe but is unattributed.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 12:09 PM (VpkjW)

79 I wonder what Washington would have thought about Obamaphones..
Posted by: TexasJew at February 10, 2013 12:09 PM (lD8ju)


I wonder what he would have thought of the Crips and the Bloods.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 12:09 PM (l86i3)

80 Ask any American black where they would rather be today, here in the USA or in western Africa.

Posted by: navybrat at February 10, 2013 12:10 PM (szil7)

81 Ask any American black where they would rather be today, here in the USA or in western Africa.
Posted by: navybrat at February 10, 2013 12:10 PM (szil7)


Big Macs taste better than Rats.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 12:10 PM (l86i3)

82
The 'elites' support the one that makes them 'elite.'



Well-put.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 10, 2013 12:07 PM (xSegX)

I thought so as well. I think Ace posted a longer version of the same concept a few days ago as (was it?) "Fens" rule or something.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at February 10, 2013 12:11 PM (bb5+k)

83 Currently reading "Ready Player One" and enjoying it.

I got a kick out of "Ready Player One." I read "Fire-hearted" last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. I also bought a copy of "The Curious Disappearance of Seamus Muldoon." I'll read it next week sometime.

Posted by: no good deed at February 10, 2013 12:11 PM (mjR67)

84 Anachronda, do you really want a neural interface that acts like Chrome or could get hacked like the DoJ?

Better protect your ghost from such hacks. No need for cyber-zombies. Unless you like being a puppet in a Shirow world.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 12:11 PM (VpkjW)

85 Ed Anger

Garvey was touted by southern racists, like Senator Bilbo of Mississippi, as being a way to deport the blacks back to Africa

Plus, Garcey was rather clownish and dressed up like a Mardi Gras Crewe King

Posted by: TexasJew at February 10, 2013 12:12 PM (lD8ju)

86 Happy Joe Cain Day.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at February 10, 2013 12:13 PM (6IKyK)

87 #80
Ask any American black where they would rather be today, here in the USA or in western Africa.

I'd love to see a story where all an alien came down and listened to everyone's comments. He took all the people who bitched about America and said how it's so inferior to another country and immediately transported them there and forced them to live there. After all he only gave tehm what they said they wanted.

Hilarity abounds (but not for them).

Posted by: RightWingProf at February 10, 2013 12:14 PM (E/o+q)

88 I don't truck any guilt over slavery. Whites died like flies to end it, in places like Fredericksburg, Shiloh, the Wilderness, Cold Harbor and Gettysburg. Those graves are inhabited by more than a few of my ancestors.

Posted by: navybrat at February 10, 2013 12:14 PM (szil7)

89 With regard to Du Bois growing up without racism, I've always had a theory about Obama.

I think he did grow up with racism. But he grew up in Indonesia and Hawaii and I think the racism he experienced came from Indonesians and native Hawaiians. He hints about the former in his book.

I think it ironically fed his ideology, which excuses such racism due to "historical discrimination" or whatever.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 10, 2013 12:14 PM (xSegX)

90
While I was there, I corresponded with Sowell a
few times. He sendme signed copies of two of his Economics books (along
with a nice letter thanking me for a few lines he later used in
columns). They're among my most prized possessions. I bought a few extra
copies just to lend out to students so that they could see that the
"Black" world view wasn't monolithic.



Posted by: RightWingProf at February 10, 2013 12:07 PM (E/o+q)

Sowell is very good, but Walter Williams is more readable. I love me some Walter Williams columns. Been reading them for decades, and this man's writing was usually the bright spot in the newspaper.
Even so, I would be hanging a Thomas Sowell autograph on my wall.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at February 10, 2013 12:15 PM (bb5+k)

91 Watched the last of the "Viva Zapata" movie, with Brando Quin, Yea I realize it was a stretch in history, but it did spark an interest in what really happened. It did sell the point that those in power, will always stay in power. which rings true ...today!

Posted by: Paladin at February 10, 2013 12:15 PM (89smr)

92 I don't truck any guilt over slavery. Whites died like flies to end it, in places like Fredericksburg, Shiloh, the Wilderness, Cold Harbor and Gettysburg. Those graves are inhabited by more than a few of my ancestors.
Posted by: navybrat at February 10, 2013 12:14 PM (szil7)


Yep.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 12:15 PM (l86i3)

93 I thought so as well. I think Ace posted a longer version of the same concept a few days ago as (was it?) "Fens" rule or something.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at February 10, 2013 12:11 PM (bb5+k)


"Ace posted a longer version" should be on a macro.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 10, 2013 12:16 PM (xSegX)

94 >>>>>Seems to me, they might have had a more civilized notion that slavery is
one man dehumanizing another and being angry all the time is
dehumanizing yourself.<<<<<<

I'm pretty sure that is the objection to "Song of the South"--Uncle Remus isn't angry enough about having been a slave.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at February 10, 2013 12:17 PM (KAWvv)

95 I think he did grow up with racism. But he grew up
in Indonesia and Hawaii and I think the racism he experienced came from
Indonesians and native Hawaiians. He hints about the former in his book.



I think it ironically fed his ideology, which excuses such racism due to "historical discrimination" or whatever.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 10, 2013 12:14 PM (xSegX)

From reading i've done over the years, the Indonesian kids did indeed treat him badly on account of his race. People here in America are often fixated on examples of Racism in America, but there are a lot of places in the world that exhibit various strains of racism.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at February 10, 2013 12:19 PM (bb5+k)

96 AmishDude-

Zapped.

Posted by: CAC at February 10, 2013 12:19 PM (gaPEx)

97
Even so, I would be hanging a Thomas Sowell autograph on my wall.

Edited by NBC.

Posted by: zsasz at February 10, 2013 12:19 PM (MMC8r)

98 Zapata was too left-o for me.
All that goody goody Indian shit

I prefer our local anarchic murderer, Pancho Villa

What a crazy bastard he was!

Posted by: TexasJew at February 10, 2013 12:19 PM (lD8ju)

99 84
Anachronda, do you really want a neural interface that acts like Chrome or could get hacked like the DoJ?

-----------

Being hacked is a feature, see. That way, I'll find the socially acceptable answers (the hacked ones being fed to my by The Powers that Be), so I'll never make a fool of myself. I'll instantly know that we've *always* been at war with Eastasia Eurasia Eastasia Eurasia.

Posted by: Assault Citizen Anachronda at February 10, 2013 12:19 PM (1c58W)

100 BTW, I need to buy "Black Judas" by John David Smith.

http://www.ncsu.edu/univ_relations/news_services/press_releases/00_01/09.htm

If Du Bois is on the left, Washington is actually not on the right. Washington is in the centre. The right was taken up by William Hannibal Thomas. Thomas was, like Washington and Du Bois, half-and-half. He also really, really hated him some black folk. Seriously, pro-segregationists used to cite Thomas all the time.

I don't recommend Thomas's book, even to racists. He's nuts. But it's probably better to contrast Du Bois, who was also nuts, to his mirror image. That leaves Washington looking a lot better.

Posted by: zimriel at February 10, 2013 12:20 PM (QTHTd)

101 I'd support hanging a Thomas Sowell on NBC's wall if it continued talking. They might learn something.

Posted by: RightWingProf at February 10, 2013 12:20 PM (E/o+q)

102 I don't truck any guilt over slavery. Whites died
like flies to end it, in places like Fredericksburg, Shiloh, the
Wilderness, Cold Harbor and Gettysburg. Those graves are inhabited by
more than a few of my ancestors.


Posted by: navybrat at February 10, 2013 12:14 PM (szil7)

I hate to get this started, but "Ending slavery" was added as an afterthought halfway through the war. Had it been the proclaimed goal prior to the war, the North would have rebelled too.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at February 10, 2013 12:22 PM (bb5+k)

103 topics and themes:

Striking Down the Evil Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy

Obama's Bald Faced Gay Marriage Lie and Pander - For The Cause!

Normalization of Deviancy "Education" - Fucking Up Normal Kids , Hooray!


The Fabulous Chick Fil A Assault of 2012





Posted by: Homo History Month - Coming Soon at February 10, 2013 12:22 PM (EZl54)

104 How about a "finally get your damn shit together month"?

TJ how can you say that?! You obviously can't understand what it's like for an entire people to be systematically oppressed for centuries, denied access to entire professions, discriminated against, and forced to build their own separate communities and culture. Do you really believe that any group could be successful in the face of all that?

Posted by: Colorado Alex at February 10, 2013 12:22 PM (hpDVh)

105
"Ace posted a longer version" should be on a macro.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 10, 2013 12:16 PM (xSegX)


Truth.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at February 10, 2013 12:23 PM (bb5+k)

106 Colorado Alex, I assume you're talking about Chiroprators..

Posted by: TexasJew at February 10, 2013 12:27 PM (lD8ju)

107 Colorado Alex, I assume you're talking about Chiroprators..
Posted by: TexasJew at February 10, 2013 12:27 PM (lD8ju)


LOL

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 12:27 PM (l86i3)

108 You're welcome.

Posted by: Dr. James Naismith at February 10, 2013 12:29 PM (MMC8r)

109 olorado Alex, I assume you're talking about Chiroprators..

Posted by: TexasJew at February 10, 2013 12:27 PM (lD8ju)





LOL

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 12:27 PM (l86i3)


Coming soon, to ATC's menagerie: Chiroraptors, small, fast assault dinosaurs that manipulate your spine with evil intent.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at February 10, 2013 12:30 PM (673KB)

110 72
Try "The First Crusade" by Thomas Ashbridge.

Posted by: Tuna at February 10, 2013 12:34 PM (M/TDA)

111 I prefer our local anarchic murderer, Pancho Villa



What a crazy bastard he was!

Posted by: TexasJew


I agree Pancho was the "Man" But my point was that the "Ruling Elite" stay in power. Those that buck the system ... too much...must be destroyed...(aka she who must not be named) Just a change of the figure head...

Posted by: Paladin at February 10, 2013 12:36 PM (89smr)

112 Colorado Alex, I assume you're talking about Chiroprators..

Carnies, actually. Dirty, filthy carnies.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at February 10, 2013 12:37 PM (hpDVh)

113 Spinaroonie! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgeQ17ZZFVE

Posted by: OxyCon at February 10, 2013 12:39 PM (U7XyJ)

114 The correspondence between Kipling and Haggard has been published. It's appropriately turgid. Some folks just throw the word "imperialist" around without knowing what they were really like. Read that book, and know them.

The leading theory on the meaning of that one Hitchcock film title is that, in all of Haggard's novels, after the discovery there's a mad dash to the temple, the mine, or the secret rendez-vous. The map direction of that desperate journey is unfailingly north-by-northwest. It's in Hamlet too, and noone can say why. I studied under Prof. Noone at the state university.

Posted by: comatus at February 10, 2013 12:41 PM (qaVK+)

115 111 I prefer our local anarchic murderer, Pancho Villa



What a crazy bastard he was!

Posted by: TexasJew






Hey, Villa killed my great great grandfather in the opening month of the Mexican Revolution. Family lore always had it that Villa himself pulled the trigger, but like most family lore that's bullshit.

Still reading Flashmans Lady. Haven't had a chance to pick up the Nook for a week due to meatspace life intruding on real life.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at February 10, 2013 12:42 PM (MBqvE)

116 pep, "Albion's Seed" is a wonderful book. I've found everything written by David Hackett Fischer to be worthwhile. "Washington's Crossing" and "Paul Revere's Ride" are terrific accounts of the Revolution. Fischer seems to be the rare contemporary academic who doesn't feel constrained to force history into a PC narrative.

And asfor DuBois and Washington - I just now watched Carson's wonderful speech at the National Prayer Breakfast and saw the contempt the pampered community organizer has for a man who overcame incredible obstacles to become a distinguished surgeon. DuBois v. Washington was on display there.

Posted by: Donna V. at February 10, 2013 12:44 PM (BStAJ)

117 Please read, "Against The Ghetto Plantation", on this mornings "American Thinker." Great story.

Posted by: tony redenzo at February 10, 2013 12:47 PM (lVrhB)

118 psss... Benjamin Carson

Posted by: Boone at February 10, 2013 12:49 PM (tIyK2)

119 As long as there is any kind of "race" day, the liberals succeed in separating us.
I advocate for a "Beat a Liberal day" to unite us.

Posted by: Joe Bidenmytime at February 10, 2013 12:55 PM (K3nJJ)

120 Dr. Carson's book, "America the Beautiful" has hit #2 on Amazon's best seller list. Good for him. I purchased his "Healing Hands" and am looking forward to reading it.

Posted by: Tuna at February 10, 2013 12:56 PM (M/TDA)

121 Slow book thread. Last week too.

Posted by: Tuna at February 10, 2013 12:59 PM (M/TDA)

122 Does anyone know of a good history book concerning Israel, particularly after the time of Christ. It's a bit sad how little I know what happened to the region in the post Bible era.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at February 10, 2013 01:01 PM (81ahw)

123 I have long pondered the plight of populations of ex-slaves / subjegated who freed themselves v those who were freed by the actions of others. My anecdotal research points to thisbeing an important step in the development of a culture. Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 11:46 AM (PKj3J)

Sowell has pointed out that slavery was a a great deal harsher in the West Indies than it was in the American South. In the US massah provided clothing, food and shelter for his slaves; in the West Indies, they actually had to come home after a day spent in the fields to work their own gardens - they would have died if they didn't. Sowell says that history gave the West Indians a huge advantage when they later emigrated to places like Harlem. West Indians became the business owners and professionals - and were resented by American blacks who didn't have their business savvy. The American blacks called the West Indians "black Jews." It was not intended as a compliment.

The problematic thing is that West Indians who emigrated to the UK were not successful like the West Indian in the US. And they certainly weren't successful at home.

It's like the Chinese. The Chinese who established communities all over Asia, from India to the Phillipines flourished as business people - and became much hated by the natives as a result. In the meantime, China itself (I'm talking about pre-Red China) was pretty much of a mess.

Posted by: Donna V. at February 10, 2013 01:02 PM (BStAJ)

124 The Joy of Hate by Gutfeld

Posted by: Svenster at February 10, 2013 01:05 PM (NGJ/C)

125 A followup to my question, but it now strikes me as somewhat heretical to call anything the "post Bible" era, but I'm sure people know what I mean.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at February 10, 2013 01:06 PM (81ahw)

126 "TJ how can you say that?! You obviously can't understand what it's like for an entire people to be systematically oppressed for centuries, denied access to entire professions, discriminated against, and forced to build their own separate communities and culture. Do you really believe that any group could be successful in the face of all that? "

Damned if we know.

Posted by: The Jews at February 10, 2013 01:07 PM (BStAJ)

127 They say a picture is worth a thousand words.
http://moonbattery.com/?p=25418

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 01:09 PM (VpkjW)

128 Book End:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Q4kuYks9g

Posted by: OxyCon at February 10, 2013 01:11 PM (U7XyJ)

129 Another problem with the Du Bois approach, perhaps the most fundamental problem with it, is that it promotes and results in a cargo cultish mentality.

The civil rights efforts spawned by Du Bois has focused on imitating the outcomes of traditional European/American culture, without any understanding or cognition of its true nature or purpose --the underpinning ingredients and building blocks which lead to and culminate in individual success-- in the hopes of simply conferring those outcomes on the targeted population by fiat.

The Booker T. Washington approach, exemplified by Dr. Carson, stands in stark contrast.

All of which really begs the question. The civil rights movement has never been so much about uplifting the disadvantaged African-American underclass as it has been about white liberals acquiring and maintaining political power, with a few hand picked token blacks thrown in for show.

Posted by: G Joubert at February 10, 2013 01:13 PM (SP0jR)

130 The problem with the Dubois approach is that it is socialism. Socialism has failed miserably in every place it has been tried, including the US.

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 01:16 PM (53z96)

131 Zummo: first, "Israel" in the time you are referring to was a people, really a poetic name for two peoples - Jews and Samaritans. I think that you are looking for the histories of Roman "Judaea" and, later, "Palaestina".

For a history of Roman Judaea between the death of Jesus called Christ and the destruction of the Temple, the works of Josephus are a fine primary source.

If you are looking for a history of Roman Palestine from after the destruction of the Temple, up to the Islamic takeover - there you are a little less in luck. Judaism (and Samaritanism) did not offer up a competent historian or even chronicler until the High Middle Ages. Why that is, I don't know.


Posted by: l'état? c'est moi! at February 10, 2013 01:20 PM (QTHTd)

132 /off froggy sock

Posted by: zimriel at February 10, 2013 01:21 PM (QTHTd)

133 I'm thinking of moving to Egypt and becoming a Cairo-practor.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at February 10, 2013 01:22 PM (qqZuQ)

134 Thanks zimriel - and thanks for the correction. And yes, I'm really looking for a post-Temple destruction history. I'll keep digging.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at February 10, 2013 01:25 PM (81ahw)

135
>>The Joy of Hate by Gutfeld

Meh. I got this for Christmas.Quick read. I laughed a few times, but it is mostly recycled Red Eye material.

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 01:35 PM (ZW6K8)

136 One book for Syria Palaestina is "The Archaeology of Society in the Holy Land".

Might also try looking into Samaritanism specifically. Also Tiberian and Galilean Judaism; they were the academies that collected the Mishnah, some Midrash and apocalyptic literature, and the Ierushalmi Talmud.

Posted by: zimriel at February 10, 2013 01:35 PM (QTHTd)

137 DuBois and Washington worked together behind the scenes. They felt both approaches were necessary, but also recognized the political benefits of appearing to be at odds.

This is not well known by either blacks or whites, curiously so in the case of blacks.

Posted by: argh at February 10, 2013 01:55 PM (vaXys)

138 I just caught this thread this morning then had to go out. I see that we aren't that much different from the left when it comes to screaming racist. One guy makes a post that mentions the I.Q. factor in regards to race, one guy screams racist and the entire episode is scrubbed clean by someone. No thinking allowed when it comes to race differences, we must all tow the liberal line that it's somehow all whites people fault.

Posted by: lowandslow at February 10, 2013 04:39 PM (Fz2C7)

139 Late here. OSP! Your book is super, and as soon as I have finished, I will write a review on Amazon, which I have NEVER done!

I do not normally read contemporary novels, sticking either to historical fiction, romance, or English murder mysteries. I am SO glad I bought your book!

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 10, 2013 05:17 PM (GoIUi)

140 I didn't think the comment was racist at all.

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 05:19 PM (53z96)

141 I would point out that Booker T. and the MGs were an interracial band with a white bassist and guitar player: Donald "Duck" Dunn and Steve Cropper. The MGs were the house band for Stax records for both black and white artists in the 60s and 70s.
So there's some relevance, I think, to the discussion of approaches to racial equality.

Posted by: SicSemperTyrannus at February 10, 2013 08:19 PM (EAESv)

142 138 I just caught this thread this morning then had to go out. I see that we aren't that much different from the left when it comes to screaming racist. One guy makes a post that mentions the I.Q. factor in regards to race, one guy screams racist and the entire episode is scrubbed clean by someone. No thinking allowed when it comes to race differences, we must all tow the liberal line that it's somehow all whites people fault.
-
Exactly.

Left wing race politics is gradually putting conservatives in a hopeless position.

But respectable conservatives deserve to lose, because they cooperate in enforcing left wing taboos that make it impossible to effectively challenge leftist race politics.

The consequence of submitting to political correctness on race is a never ending flood of immigrants, about 90% non-white and so about 80% Democrat-voting. A million of those every year tip the electorate more and more to liberals and liberal policies.

Then the same respectable conservatives who made this inevitable act all superior to the dumb voters. The same dumb voters that they helped import at the rate of a million a year.

Continuous mass immigration plus forced integration means that there will be no white people. Every neighborhood will eventually go purple and then deep blue. Why? Race.

The browning of America means permanent, total defeat for conservatives. (And it's similar in all historically white countries, for instance in France, where the Muslim vote has helped Socialists.)

And if you're too dumb to figure it out, the left will tell you that the "minority" vote is their strategy, and that they are going to win permanently in the end because of race and demographics. They gloat.

And respectable conservatives who try to act superior and smart refuse to figure this out and draw appropriate conclusions.

Posted by: Chromoly Man at February 11, 2013 05:58 AM (Q/gA2)

143 the guy the left- nicholas cage in black face?

Posted by: wm flip at February 11, 2013 08:58 AM (lB/5N)






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