Gun Thread (2-10-2013)

Housekeeping

This thread will henceforth be known as the "Gun Thread".

When I started it, "Guns & Hunting" seemed like a good idea. Like "NASCAR & Hot Rods" or "Boats & Fishing".

But that was before the left's full-court press for gun control. And, of course, they love to say things like "we do skeet all the time" or "we respect traditions of hunting" ... blah, blah, blah ... to obfuscate their true aim of banning all firearms.

The fact is, the federal & state governments can and do regulate hunting as much as they want, and there's really no 2nd amendment issue invoked at all. Not so with firearms ownership in general.

I think having a thread called "Guns & Hunting", even if just in a very small way, reinforces this non-existent linkage, so I'm going to drop the "& Hunting". I'll still post on hunting some, but it'll be in a separate thread.


Los Angeles Destroys Another Gun Grabber Myth

Just a couple of weeks ago, New York passed a very restrictive gun control law in the dead of night. In their haste, they forgot to exempt law enforcement officers and former law enforcement officers, to which I say "good!". Especially as to the latter.

My dad has been an LEO for over 35 years, so I understand why people who carry a firearm on the job for that long would feel entitled to keep carrying one. But, I'm sorry, a better word for "former law enforcement officer" is "civilian".

Like the 'we heart hunting' dodge, this is another one the left uses to subvert 2nd amendment rights. Why, of course the police should be exempt from [assault weapons ban, high-capacity magazine ban, etc.].

And then came Christopher Dorner, a spree-killer ex-cop, to prove why these guys should be the only ones with guns, as I'm sure the relatively lightly-armed citizenry (thanks to California's gun control laws) in the area of the manhunt will attest to.

Speaking of the manhunt, we appear to be in a race as to whether Dorner will kill more innocent people than the officers trying to find him.

Attorney Glen Jonas said Maggie Carranza, 47, and her mother, 71-year-old Emma Hernandez, were delivering Los Angeles Times newspapers around 5:15 a.m. in Torrance when the officers opened fire on their vehicle.

Jonas said, "There was no warning. There were no orders. No commands. Just gunshots."

But wait, there's more:

David Perdue was on his way to sneak in some surfing before work Thursday morning when police flagged him down. They asked who he was and where he was headed, then sent him on his way.

Seconds later, Perdue's attorney said, a Torrance police cruiser slammed into his pickup and officers opened fire; none of the bullets struck Perdue.

None of these people even remotely match the description of the suspect. The only common thread is that they were all driving trucks. So it sure is blindingly obvious that only law enforcement personnel have the requisite training and skills to responsibly own firearms.

The only saving grace in these stories is that trigger-happy cops are apparently very bad shots.


Fighting Fire With Fire

With the above in mind, every gun manufacturer should do what LaRue Tactical just did (emphasis added):

NEWS RELEASE:
02/08/2013 LEANDER, TX.

Updated Policy for State and Local Agency Law Enforcement Sales:

Due to the recent and numerous new Anti-gun/Anti-2nd Amendment laws passed and/or pending across our country, LaRue Tactical has been forced to reconsider how we provide products to state and local agencies.

Effective today, in an effort to see that no legal mistakes are made by LaRue Tactical and/or its employees, we will apply all current State and Local Laws (as applied to civilians) to state and local law enforcement / government agencies. In other words, LaRue Tactical will limit all sales to what law-abiding citizens residing in their districts can purchase or possess.

State and local laws have always been a serious focus of this firm, and we are now dovetailing that focus with the constitutional rights of the residents covered in their different areas by the old and new regulations.

We realize this effort will have an impact on this firm’s sales – and have decided the lost sales are less danger to this firm than potential lawsuits from erroneous shipments generated by something as simple as human error.

Thanks in advance for your understanding.

Mark LaRue

* * This policy does not apply to Military / Federal Agencies * *

Well done.


Gun Of The Week


Marksmanship Award



Practice Makes Perfect

Moron 'Derak' sent in the following request:

could you discuss marksmanship practice for the range? I don't want to just empty 50 rounds at one target for no good reason. Is there an approach to target shooting ie. mozambique drills (is that the correct terminology?). videos and target types used would be good.

No matter what topic you're talking about, practice for an activity should mirror the activity itself as closely as possible. No different with guns.

You can be an awesome shot with a rifle and also be craptacular at wingshooting. The best way to get better at it is to spend time behind your shotgun shooting sporting clays or, as I often refer to it, "doing skeet shooting all the time".

For self-defense using a handgun, participating in IDPA matches or something like that is better practice than just sending lead downrange at a paper target. If you want to really go all out, there are programs like Gunsite that provide great training.

That said, every round you fire, even if it's just at a stationary target on the range, trains your muscle memory a little more and, especially if you're new to shooting, isn't wasted time by any means.

I trust you good folks will throw in your $0.02 in the comments.

Related: How 'The Karate Kid' Ruined The Modern World


Gun Of The Week - Answer

That, of course, is the Winchester Model 1897 Assault Trench Gun. I know it's really called "Trench Gun", but it has a bayonet lug, so I figure they just left off the "assault" part by accident. This is another one of John M. Browning's excellent designs, and I'd love to find one in good shape to add to the collection.


The Cuomo

Defense Distributed continues to improve their 3D-printed magazine.

In response to the upsurge in gun violence, politicians are proposing restrictions on the number of bullets that handgun and rifle magazines can hold. And just as they do, new printing technology blows holes right through that debate. The 3-D printing gunsmiths at Defense Distributed are about to release blueprints for an upgraded magazine that won’t degrade even after you fire hundreds of rounds.

It's not all that hard to make a traditional AR magazine if you have the skills to do so. But that doesn't drive the left nuts like ZOMFG!!11! 3D-printed plastic guns! Calling it "The Cuomo" is just icing on the cake.


Tips

If there are topics you're interested in seeing in the gun thread, please send them to AoSHQGunThread at gmail. You can also send them to me on Twitter at @AndyM1911.

Defend the Second Amendment. Join: The National Rifle Association * Gun Owners of America * The National Shooting Sports Foundation * Your state's second amendment org.

Posted by: Andy at 12:30 PM



Comments

1 Those 3d printing guys were also working on printing a receiver, too. It only held up to a few rounds. But it got me thinking, couldn't you just print the form and then use that to make a sand cast? Cast the receiver in an aluminum allow and voila! New gun. Even if it's not as sturdy as the machined versions, it'll be much stronger than ABS.

Posted by: .87c at February 10, 2013 12:39 PM (srtLJ)

2 Commie Killing Gun Thread would be over top, I suppose.

Posted by: sTevo at February 10, 2013 12:39 PM (YSd1Q)

3
Practice, practice, practice.
You don't need to go live to develop muscle memory.

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 12:40 PM (KiEyK)

4 neighbor got an AR15 for Christmas. Jealous.

Posted by: tony redenzo at February 10, 2013 12:41 PM (lVrhB)

5 Derak, I like, nay, LOVE the Dot Torture Drill. If your range allows for draw from a holster, that'd be my #1 choice for a drill (assuming that accuracy from a holster is your goal). For awareness/WTH practice in an ambush situation, check out the "Figure Eight" drill popularized by Rob Pincus and others.

Posted by: ExurbanKevin at February 10, 2013 12:42 PM (cM8Wy)

6
>>neighbor got an AR15 for Christmas<<.

In related news, Santa Claus arrested for 'Straw Purchase'.
'We MUST close the Christmas Holiday Loophole!', responsds New York City Mayor michael Bloomberg.

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 12:43 PM (KiEyK)

7 Yeah, Dorner sure does open the question of the ex-cop exception to gun bans. The LA Times reported that police fear Dorner may have a .50 caliber rifle. In case you didn't know it, .50 caliber rifles were banned in California by adding them to the "assault weapon" ban -- even the bolt-action and single-shot ones. But wait! There's an exception in the ban for - you guessed it - cops! How much safer do you feel now?

Posted by: Socratease at February 10, 2013 12:43 PM (CzPtn)

8 And the best drill of all is competition: Try an IPSC/USPSA/IDPA match if you REALLY want to know how you and your equipment will in a stressful situation...

Posted by: ExurbanKevin at February 10, 2013 12:43 PM (cM8Wy)

9
Gun show in Fort Wayne yesterday. Did see plennty of ammo. .223 averaged a buck per round. .22 $11 per hundred was the cheapest i saw. I would say and average-sized crowd. Bought some extra .45 acp reloads and deer sabots as Wal-Mart does not seem to be restocking ammo...
Then Tilted Kilt for lunch!

Posted by: Cicero Kid at February 10, 2013 12:44 PM (+iUsQ)

10 That 1897 has an assault barrel shroud on it too. Makes it extra deadly.

All the former LEO exemptions are hustles to keep the police unions happy and on board with abridging second amendment rights. They serve no other purpose.

Posted by: JDRush at February 10, 2013 12:44 PM (k5Fs1)

11 If Republicans were smart, we'd all register as Democrats and make sure Cuomo gets the nomination in 2016 instead of Hillary.

No way a gun-grabbing Democrat that required registering their firearm every 5 years win the Rust Belt.

Posted by: Jeepers at February 10, 2013 12:44 PM (XDRsa)

12 My friend the Win97 trench gun.....

*sigh*

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 12:46 PM (LRFds)

13 I linked this in the morning thread because I got impatient, but it certainly belongs here:

http://tinyurl.com/bxeaqgu

Donald Sensing examines the DHS purchases of ammo, and suggests that it may be nothing more than run-of-the-mill graft and corruption.

Of course, you and I would go to prison for that, but it's the government, so shut up.

Posted by: rickl at February 10, 2013 12:47 PM (sdi6R)

14 Last night on the ONT I commented on The Walking Dead about Hershel's infinite shotgun and how everyone had a pistol that could take out a walker's brain from over 100 yards on every single pull of a trigger as being the only two things more unrealistic about the show than rotting corpses coming to life.

Right now, I'm watching the episode where the farm got overrun and I have to give the show a little credit because they got something right that I never noticed. When Andrea is running for her life thru the woods, her 1911 locks the slide back on her last round instead of surprising the shooter when it just clicks.

Even the blind squirrel ...

Posted by: slug at February 10, 2013 12:47 PM (vVv3V)

15 I had a mossburg 28" barrel that I lost in a tragic canoe accident... heavy sigh!

Posted by: Paladin at February 10, 2013 12:49 PM (89smr)

16 Training: Drills are good, but only if you're practicing good technique. My advice is to get training from someone who can look at what you're doing and analyze it for faults. If that's not an option, train yourself. Analyze you own shooting, think of things that might make it better and try each one for a few weeks to see if it improves things. If not, throw it away and try something else. Make up your own drills to work on the areas where you're weak. But always think the drill through first from a safety aspect and make sure you have the risky parts compensated for.

Posted by: Socratease at February 10, 2013 12:49 PM (CzPtn)

17
had a mossburg 28" barrel that I lost in a tragic canoe accident


Perfect opportunity to upgrade to an 870.

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 12:50 PM (KiEyK)

18 If it's the government, it can't be corrupt.

Posted by: l'état? c'est moi! at February 10, 2013 12:50 PM (QTHTd)

19 "That said, every round you fire, even if it's just at a stationary target on the range, trains your muscle memory a little more..."

This is why unless you are an expert it's good to have a lesson occasionally. If you have a weak stance, grip, any poor shooting habit in general, a good instructor will spot it quickly before it becomes "the way you shoot."

Saturday stunk at the range, a Sunday morning lesson fixed a lot of bad habits.

Posted by: mare at February 10, 2013 12:50 PM (A98Xu)

20 I guess that cop-hunting-ex-cop business in Kalifornia settles the question of whether a contemporary oath-taker will open fire on an American citizen without any of that inconvenient habeas corpus foolishness to back the officer up.

Posted by: PPs43 at February 10, 2013 12:51 PM (JMJSK)

21 Phew...as long as it isn't an Assault Gun Thread.


I feel safer already.

Posted by: RWC at February 10, 2013 12:51 PM (sqp6o)

22 Dang, Andy.

That's a lot of work. Thanks for putting it all together.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 12:51 PM (piMMO)

23 "When Andrea is running for her life thru the woods, her 1911 locks the slide back on her last round instead of surprising the shooter when it just clicks."

I remember seeing a show where somebody ran a 1911 dry and it went "click ... click" when they pulled the trigger. *Headpalm*

Posted by: Socratease at February 10, 2013 12:52 PM (CzPtn)

24 Phew...as long as it isn't an Assault Gun Thread.


I feel safer already.

****

That's because the gun of the week has a wood stock on it.

Had it been black, this would be a whole other thread.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 12:53 PM (piMMO)

25
16Training: Drills are good, but only if you're practicing good technique. My advice is to get training from someone who can look at what you're doing and analyze it for faults. If that's not an option, train yourself.

============================
Agreed. Better to get that training early to avoid creating bad habits. NRA has excellent courses and being a member is a plus in supporing the Second Amendment.On your own:Youtube has a lot of good information from qualified folks, such as NSSF.

Posted by: Dumber than a cat at February 10, 2013 12:55 PM (w7J/R)

26
Heh. Watching Candy Crowley on CNN and can only think that she is to OBESE to be in such a position of power. She could die on camera! Maybe she can sneak to the green room with guvner Christie for a donut.

Posted by: t-dubyah-d at February 10, 2013 12:56 PM (kmgJc)

27 12 My friend the Win97 trench gun.....

*sigh*
Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 12:46 PM (LRFds)

"It is especially forbidden to employ arms, projections, or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering"

Yada yada yada...

Posted by: RWC at February 10, 2013 12:56 PM (sqp6o)

28 Is that a Remington M12?

Posted by: Mr Pink at February 10, 2013 12:56 PM (bjn9b)

29 Had it been black, this would be a whole other thread.

----------

Or had a picatinny rail and collapsible stock.

Posted by: slug at February 10, 2013 12:57 PM (vVv3V)

30 If your range allows you to rapid fire( 5-6) I find that drill helps sight and trigger control. Of course it requires more ammo for range time.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 10, 2013 12:58 PM (aT/Cc)

31 Hey, how goes it in the great North East? Has everyone resorted to cannibalism yet?

Posted by: Paladin at February 10, 2013 12:58 PM (89smr)

32 Going to break out my assault quad wheel tactical personal conveyances with the nephews today.

(roller skates. Shit this gonna be painful.)

Posted by: RWC at February 10, 2013 12:59 PM (sqp6o)

33 Had it been black, this would be a whole other thread.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 12:53 PM (piMMO)

Wingnuts don't even hide their racism anymore :-P

Posted by: RWC at February 10, 2013 01:01 PM (sqp6o)

34 It's cold and rainy down south...but tolerable.

Posted by: Paladin at February 10, 2013 01:01 PM (89smr)

35 Practice changing magazines with your pistol, ejecting brass and speed loading on a revolver. Probably more important that shooting.
Learn to look for cover everywhere you go.

Posted by: Dept. of Accuracy Dept. at February 10, 2013 01:01 PM (MhA4j)

36 You could call it - 'In Your Face - Gun Thread '
or ' Do's an Dont's of the 1st Amendment..

Posted by: American Dawg at February 10, 2013 01:02 PM (trA4n)

37 The fact is, the federal state governments can and do regulate
hunting as much as they want, and there's really no 2nd amendment issue
invoked at all. Not so with firearms ownership in general.




Hunters and fishhers have done more to preserve the environment that the EPA and all the watermellons combined.

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 01:02 PM (53z96)

38 Best trainer I ever encountered was Louie Awerbuck. He was awesome at analyzing shooting faults and many of his drills have become standards in other shooting academies. He still gives classes, check out his schedule at yfainc.com. Especially take his shotgun series if you get the chance, it is world-class.

Posted by: Socratease at February 10, 2013 01:02 PM (CzPtn)

39 Would it be wrong to put a bayonet lug on a Mossberg 12 ga.?

Posted by: Frank Li at February 10, 2013 01:02 PM (foGgf)

40 And great on LaRue Tactical. Wish it would extend to the feds though, but it's a step.

Posted by: RWC at February 10, 2013 01:04 PM (sqp6o)

41
Mywife joined me at the range for the first timeyesterday. Used a Ruger .22 Mark III Target; low noise and recoil. She loved it: "You created a monster." She said, "we need more bullets", so went to the Gun Show in Chantilly, Virginia.
.
Gun Show was very crowded. .22LR bricks (of 500 or 525 rounds) almost unavailable. Any .22LR costtwo or three times as muchas in November. ($50 for a brick). I passed on "more bullets" and will wait until supply catches up with demand. Ammo supplies are way down, lots of hoarding.

Posted by: Dumber than a cat at February 10, 2013 01:04 PM (w7J/R)

42 Nice job, LaRue.

Me, 10 day wait in California is up on Tuesday and I'm getting another PDW. Sweetest little thing. For my pocket. Think 148 grain wadcutters.

I'm so excited, I just can't hide it.....

Posted by: eureka! at February 10, 2013 01:04 PM (HPRku)

43 Can I gets me a huntin' license up in here?

Posted by: John F'n Kerry at February 10, 2013 01:04 PM (BVkEs)

44 Would it be wrong to put a bayonet lug on a Mossberg 12 ga.?
Posted by: Frank Li at February 10, 2013 01:02 PM (foGgf)

If a Bayonet lug is wrong, I don't want to be right.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 10, 2013 01:05 PM (l86i3)

45
Practice changing magazines with your pistol, ejecting brass and speed loading on a revolver. Probably more important that shooting.
Learn to look for cover everywhere you go.



Stay under cover. Always. Reloading.

Posted by: PS3 Bond Credo at February 10, 2013 01:06 PM (KiEyK)

46 Oh, Andy, good job splitting the hunting. Guns and the 2nd Amendment are not about hunting. Fucking politicians will still lie, though.

Posted by: eureka! at February 10, 2013 01:07 PM (HPRku)

47 Cast the receiver in an aluminum allow and voila!

I'm not sure you could cast a part to finished dimensions, then you'd have to worry about repeatability of sand. Maybe the pros can get it right. Aluminum shrinks when it cools.

Posted by: t-bird at February 10, 2013 01:07 PM (FcR7P)

48
I used to walk into my high school in Massachusetts in the 1970s during bird hunting season carrying my Ithaca 12 ga. pump to put it in my locker. So did my friends. It was not noteworthy.

Posted by: rrpjr at February 10, 2013 01:07 PM (ArYpi)

49 Marines on parade without bolts or are they just open and unloaded?

Posted by: Gordon undead Ramsay at February 10, 2013 01:07 PM (9HhTH)

50 43 Can I gets me a huntin' license up in here?

Posted by: John F'n Kerry at February 10, 2013 01:04 PM (BVkEs)

He-yah?

Posted by: BignJames at February 10, 2013 01:07 PM (HtUkt)

51 Re practice makes perfect link:

10,000 hours to become and expert. Half way there to being an expert coach raper.

Posted by: sTevo at February 10, 2013 01:08 PM (vroT8)

52 2 My friend the Win97 trench gun.....



*sigh*

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 12:46 PM (LRFds)


So I buy a house in 1979. I'm crawling the attic over the separated garage and in the farthest and lowest part, in the soffit, is a real '97 Trench Gun totally rusted up.
I tell my neighbor about it and he confesses to me that the first people to own the house, the guy shotgunned his wife and then shot himself with a .44 Magnum.
The police never found the shotgun and suspected a neighbor or passerby had stolen it. Freaky

Posted by: Dept. of Accuracy Dept. at February 10, 2013 01:08 PM (MhA4j)

53 Finally got the chance to shoot my rifle last weekend (Colt 6920, M-4). What fun! Sighted-in the scope and put holes in paper in nice, tight groups at 100 yds. My brother let me shoot his .308 and I disintegrated a clay at 325 yds. I love days like that. Unfortunately, we forgot to close the tailgate on the truck and all of my guns and my son's were lost somewhere in middle TN. I'm devastated. I don't think I'll ever have another gun.

Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at February 10, 2013 01:08 PM (otfJ1)

54 All I know is I cannot seem to find any .22LR. Shelves are clean everywhere.

The dumb sales clerk at Gander Mountain told me (this is The Peoples Republic of Cuomo) that while my existing and permitted handguns with their over-seven capacity mags can be kept by me, I must be sure to load a maximum of seven rounds in those large magazines. No more. I said, oh, is that so?

Then said thanks for the info, stupid. Now, about those .22LR. He said the truck comes in each Wednesday with some fresh supply, but the ammo buyers must follow the truck in, as they are gone in like 60 seconds or something.

Like, the last thing I'll need if the shit hits the fan are .22LR loads.

Posted by: The littl shyning man at February 10, 2013 01:08 PM (PH+2B)

55 'Gun Thread - Because F U that's why.'

Posted by: RWC at February 10, 2013 01:08 PM (sqp6o)

56
But, I'm sorry, a better word for "former law enforcement officer" is "civilian".

whoa, hey there
ask my dad if he needs to borrow my belt to tan your uppity behind

Posted by: navycopjoe at February 10, 2013 01:09 PM (LbF6w)

57 Have a 1975 Ithaca M37 12 ga. and a 1968 Marlin 336A 30/30 I'm gonna be making an offer on this week.

Thinking I should get them both for $450.

Hooray for private gun sales.

Posted by: RoyalOil at February 10, 2013 01:09 PM (VjL9S)

58 Jordan offers training classes in ALL THE GUNS!

Posted by: RWC at February 10, 2013 01:10 PM (sqp6o)

59 Better to get that training early to avoid creating bad habits.

That was my feeling, too. My NRA Pistol Basics class is next week!

Posted by: t-bird at February 10, 2013 01:10 PM (FcR7P)

60 Oh, because your wimpy arrow needs more killing power:

www.racembac.com/bowmag.html

Posted by: RoyalOil at February 10, 2013 01:11 PM (VjL9S)

61 on the range practice, don't forget mag change, mag change, MAG CHANGE

Posted by: navycopjoe at February 10, 2013 01:12 PM (LbF6w)

62
>>Like, the last thing I'll need if the shit hits the fan are .22LR loads.<<

You could do worse. Cheap. Effective. Also, great for still hunting small game to feed yourself.

Bonus - You can chew your Grouse with impunity.

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 01:13 PM (KiEyK)

63 I second the comments about Awerbuck. He is a great instructor! If you are local, I recommend that you go to Reed's in Santa Clara, Ca and watch one of his classes.

Posted by: Steve at February 10, 2013 01:13 PM (OzaLo)

64 A better word for current leo - is civilian.

Posted by: george at February 10, 2013 01:14 PM (qBLA2)

65 Feb 23 weekend Jackson, MS will have another gun show. Wonder if this one will be as much a zoo as the January one. Or will it be worse?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 01:14 PM (VpkjW)

66 .22LR are staples. I never let my supply go under a thousand rounds or so.

Posted by: navybrat at February 10, 2013 01:15 PM (szil7)

67 All I know is I cannot seem to find any .22LR. Shelves are clean everywhere...


***

Gun shop owners have bought at a premium all the loose ammo
Go to GunBroker and there is plenty of ammo in 500 round bricks.
A little expensive but hey, trying times these are.

Posted by: Dept. of Accuracy Dept. at February 10, 2013 01:15 PM (MhA4j)

68 Utterly O/T, but seeing as how this is a frequent topic 'mongst the morons:

I'm watching a Lithuanian college basketball game on firstrowsports.eu.

They have cheerleaders.

With very short skirts and knee-high socks.

Amazing what you can find on the intertoobs...

We now return you to your previously scheduled gun thread, already in progress.....

Posted by: Tex Lovera at February 10, 2013 01:15 PM (jaijr)

69 Eh, only shot an M1 once but it looks like when the bolt is not visible the charging handle should be way back near the rear sights. So it seems they actually took the bolts out of the guns.

Posted by: Gordon undead Ramsay at February 10, 2013 01:15 PM (9HhTH)

70 The Marines' bolts were removed. lots on the web about that. Most ammo is backordered 6 months out and there are no components to be found. That tells me it's gonna be a LONG time before any catchup, and no guarantee of what prices will be then. If you want something get it now. Does your state have the equivalent of calguns?

Posted by: DAve at February 10, 2013 01:15 PM (XDC0v)

71 >>Yeah, Dorner sure does open the question of the ex-cop exception to gun bans.

Feinstein became mayor of SF when an ex-cop shot the Mayor and a member of the Board of Supervisors.

Posted by: Mama AJ, Assault Poiser at February 10, 2013 01:15 PM (SUKHu)

72 57 That would be insanely cheap in CA. Both solid choices

Posted by: DAve at February 10, 2013 01:16 PM (XDC0v)

73 >>I passed on "more bullets" and will wait until supply catches up with demand.

I keep waiting to hear reports that OSHA is shocked, shocked to find lead in ammo factories and will be shutting them down.

There's a chance I may be getting a tad cynical, though.

Posted by: Mama AJ, Assault Poiser at February 10, 2013 01:18 PM (SUKHu)

74 71 Mama AJ,

which shows you her reasoning ability on prevention.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:18 PM (LRFds)

75 I second the comments about Awerbuck. He is a great instructor! If you are local

Thanks, that's helpful and very local.

Posted by: t-bird at February 10, 2013 01:18 PM (FcR7P)

76
>>The Marines' bolts were removed<<

We also took the knives and forks away from the Hispanics.

Posted by: Team Obama at February 10, 2013 01:18 PM (ZW6K8)

77 Is front sight any good? I live in San Diego and can get there easy enough. A friend said he could get me a $250 diamond membership, which looks like a good deal. I heard they have had legal issues in the past and am on the fence with this. Anyone have an opinion on this?

Posted by: Big D at February 10, 2013 01:19 PM (bipor)

78 @71 was that the Harvey Milk shooting? Did not know the shooter was ex-cop

Posted by: Tex Lovera at February 10, 2013 01:19 PM (jaijr)

79 Front sight is very well known and thought-of. Memberships do not transfer tho from what i've read

Posted by: DAve at February 10, 2013 01:20 PM (XDC0v)

80
Have a 1975 Ithaca M37 12 ga. and a 1968 Marlin 336A 30/30 I'm gonna be making an offer on this week.

Thinking I should get them both for $450.

Hooray for private gun sales.


Posted by: RoyalOil at February 10, 2013 01:09 PM (VjL9S)


The Marlin 336 in 30-30 is going for between $350 and $500 at guns of America. Some rare models are going for upwards of $1,000.

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 01:20 PM (53z96)

81 80 Good luck finding ammo. I bought it all

Posted by: DAve at February 10, 2013 01:21 PM (XDC0v)

82 For all you retired military Michigan morons, Selfridge ANGB has just opened a gun department in their BX/PX. I was there yesterday (on a Guard weekend) and they had little ammo. In .223, all they had was steel jacketed rounds. I asked the clerk how often they would get it in and he answred that they were subject to the same type delivery that regular stores got. He didn't know when they would get more in.

Posted by: Bill R. at February 10, 2013 01:21 PM (QnRSM)

83 The dumb sales clerk at Gander Mountain told me (this is The Peoples Republic of Cuomo) that while my existing and permitted handguns with their over-seven capacity mags can be kept by me, I must be sure to load a maximum of seven rounds in those large magazines. No more. I said, oh, is that so?

****

Right. So you have to be an equal or better shot than LEOs under an equally or more stressful situation than they might face.

Right.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:22 PM (piMMO)

84 Any Canadian Morons know what the legalities apply to Canadians importing AR-15 components, such as 80% lowers, barrels, and other parts? I don't have a milling machine, but I have friends who do, and I do have a lathe and a drill press, so I could probably get the job done myself, working slowly and patiently.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at February 10, 2013 01:22 PM (673KB)

85 Yes, assassin Dan White was a former police and an honorably discharged veteran of the 101st Airborne.

Posted by: navybrat at February 10, 2013 01:22 PM (szil7)

86 Dan White was a veteran of the 101st and a cop and a firefighter....

he left the police dpeartment over "reporting a beating"....hey deja vu...also was a democrat not Republican...

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:24 PM (LRFds)

87 A better word for current leo - is civilian.

Posted by: george


This.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 10, 2013 01:24 PM (NTBjC)

88 "Feinstein became mayor of SF when an ex-cop shot the Mayor and a member of the Board of Supervisors."

Just keep those ex-cops away from the Twinkies, right?

Posted by: Socratease at February 10, 2013 01:25 PM (CzPtn)

89 I gotta tell ya (and been this way for awhile), but I am gettin damn pissed off at the govt and their never-ending attacks on law abiding Americans. Not just guns, but just about anything somebody might do for enjoyment.

The worst part is I don't think there is a damn thing we can do about it.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 10, 2013 01:25 PM (p/cQy)

90 >>was that the Harvey Milk shooting?

Yep. And Mayor George Moscone.

Granted Feinstein's proposed bill says *retired* cops, not just former cops, but it still just floors me that she doesn't see the problem with that, nor will she get it even after this Dorner crap.

Posted by: Mama AJ, Assault Poiser at February 10, 2013 01:26 PM (SUKHu)

91
>>I keep waiting to hear reports that OSHA is shocked, shocked to find lead in ammo factories and will be shutting them down.
There's a chance I may be getting a tad cynical, though.<<Posted by: Mama AJ, Assault Poiser at February 10, 2013 01:18 PM (SUKHu)

Only a slim chance.A politician I knew had a saying,"There are a thousand and one ways...".And I believe they spend all day thinking them up. The EPA wanted to ban the lead due to the rounds and shot left on the ground, but failed.

Posted by: Die Trying at February 10, 2013 01:26 PM (w7J/R)

92 90 Mama AJ,

She also wants to allow "govt officials" latitude to carry modern weaponry to its full capcity....

she's a hypocritical bint.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:28 PM (LRFds)

93 Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 01:14 PM (VpkjW)

The February show in Wheaton, Il. was less a zoo than the January show. Still a zoo, but less of one, if that's any indication for Jackson, Ms.

Posted by: yam at February 10, 2013 01:28 PM (CbC5p)

94 <i>"My dad has been an LEO for over 35 years, so I understand why people who
carry a firearm on the job for that long would feel entitled to keep
carrying one. But, I'm sorry, a better word for "former law enforcement
officer" is "civilian"."</i>

They want to use credentials to help determine who gets the privilege of exercising their 2nd amendment rights. It's all of a piece with the AG's approach.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at February 10, 2013 01:29 PM (rqlRk)

95 >>Just keep those ex-cops away from the Twinkies, right?

Yeh, that'll do it.

My dad had worked at SF City Hall for many years and I'd spent quite a bit of time there.

I was 9 when it happened. Was a pretty major deal, ya know.

Posted by: Mama AJ, Assault Poiser at February 10, 2013 01:31 PM (SUKHu)

96 They want to use credentials to help determine who gets the privilege of exercising their 2nd amendment rights. It's all of a piece with the AG's approach.

****

Wanna bet those "credentials" to carry will also include sports stars, actors, and musicians?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:31 PM (piMMO)

97 I have a friend who was a reserve police officer in Berkeley for many years. California law says retired officers, even reserves, have to be issued a concealed carry license if they want one. Berkeley gets around the law by keeping them indefinitely on callback status, so they're technically never "retired". Even with all the laws liberals crank out, they still need to break the ones they have when they don't do what they want.

Posted by: Socratease at February 10, 2013 01:31 PM (CzPtn)

98 I sweat the Moron Horde is just plain irresponsible with their guns!

I feel like there have been over 1,000 boating accidents since Obama was elected!

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at February 10, 2013 01:32 PM (FsUAO)

99 I feel like there have been over 1,000 boating accidents since Obama was elected!

***

Ban Boats!!!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:32 PM (piMMO)

100 95 Mama AJ,

I suppose, I'm of the opinion it was a shooting incident. DiFi got her angel wings that day. Nothing DiFi has ever proposed would have stopped Milk's murder short of total seizure.

The left learned gravedancing in the 60s and 70s.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:33 PM (LRFds)

101
89 The worst part is I don't think there is a damn thing we can do about it.

sure there is
donate everything you have to my house bid
you can TRUST me

Posted by: navycopjoe at February 10, 2013 01:33 PM (LbF6w)

102 96 NDH,

funny how that works...the "beautiful people" are more human than we are...

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:34 PM (LRFds)

103 sure there is
donate everything you have to my house bid
you can TRUST me


***

I dunno.

Something about "trust" being in all caps makes me wonder....

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:34 PM (piMMO)

104 >>They want to use credentials to help determine who gets the privilege of exercising their 2nd amendment rights.

Andcertificates of insurance for law-abiding citizenswill stop criminals from shooting people!

Posted by: Mama AJ, Assault Poiser at February 10, 2013 01:34 PM (SUKHu)

105 funny how that works...the "beautiful people" are more human than we are...

***

Exactly.

Cuz we common people have never encountered a stalker or an angry ex.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:35 PM (piMMO)

106 .22LR are staples. I never let my supply go under a thousand rounds or so.
Posted by: navybrat at February 10, 2013 01:15 PM (szil7)







I'm stressing because I just went under 4000 rounds last weekend.

Last time we did the gun panic in '08 (remind me, what happened in '08 to cause that???) I promised myself that I'd buy something evil and assaulty every month. Assault ammo for the stockpile, high assault capacity magazines, assault bayonet lugs, assault shoulder things that go up etc. Didn't work out too well, I tend to think in terms of large lots, if I couldn't buy 10 assault magazines at once, I wouldn't buy any.

Big mistake. The lesson from this assault panic is that in normal times, you should ALWAYS plan to add one or two assault items onto every gun-related purchase.

george is right. Retired LEO = civilian, current LEO = civilian. Fuck that "Only Ones" bullshit.

And don't discount the .22LR for SHTF. Chechen snipers did a LOT of deadly work with suppressed 22LR rifles against the Russkies.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at February 10, 2013 01:35 PM (MBqvE)

107 Here in CA they want us to get liability insurance for guns now.
Any bets that it can't be any private sector insurance company by the time they push this crap through?

Posted by: Clutch Cargo at February 10, 2013 01:35 PM (Qxdfp)

108 "Nothing DiFi has ever proposed would have stopped Milk's murder short of total seizure."

That *is* what she proposed. SF had a complete handgun ban for a while, until the courts ruled it violated state law.

Posted by: Socratease at February 10, 2013 01:35 PM (CzPtn)

109 Sen. McCain says GOP will not accept tax hikes, but might be open to closing tax loopholes.



And why is eliminating deductions not a tax hike you RINO SOB?

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 01:36 PM (53z96)

110 Does anyone here use Frog Lube CLP? Thoughts/ Opinions?

Posted by: LindaFell at February 10, 2013 01:36 PM (PGO8C)

111 Isn't that a Winchester model 97?

Posted by: maddogg at February 10, 2013 01:37 PM (Z25/x)

112 Dan White killed two sitting politicians in their offices with the same pistol. Each victim was shot at least 4 times. Each victim had 2 shots to the cranium that were close enough to produce powder burns.

The jury said Manslaughter due to "diminished capacity".

Quite a legal feat when you ponder it.

Posted by: navybrat at February 10, 2013 01:37 PM (szil7)

113 108 Socratease,

That handgun ban has not secured anything, forgive me I meant "seizure" as an active verb not passive.

IE door to door 100% search and elimination with no ability for exterior travel or commerce.

ie "nothing she can do could stop pistol violence."

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:38 PM (LRFds)

114 >>remind me, what happened in '08 to cause that???

Tea Party creation?

Rampant racism by racist racists?

Bitter clinging?

Posted by: Mama AJ, Assault Poiser at February 10, 2013 01:38 PM (SUKHu)

115 Oops, didn't read far enough. I thought I recognized it. Wish I had one.

Posted by: maddogg at February 10, 2013 01:38 PM (Z25/x)

116 112 navybrat,

It was a fuck you to Vietnam I'd wager....


Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:38 PM (LRFds)

117 Man, LA cops are really doing themselves proud.

Posted by: maddogg at February 10, 2013 01:39 PM (Z25/x)

118 117 MadDog,

They would be subject to UCMJ action for their failure to adhere to RoE....

it really is charming.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:40 PM (LRFds)

119 Wanna know why Police Departments, particularly those in Southern Cali, and especially the LAPD, are so prone to doing dumb, dumb things? Because they read their own press clippings...bear in mind, their "press clippings" come directly out of Hollywood.

Years ago when I lived in San Diego I was dating a girl whose brother had just joined the LAPD. A few weeks after he graduated from the academy he came to visit us and we went to the local bar for some drinks. This dumbass took his issued handgun with him, tucked into the front of his pants, and was trying to pick up on girls by lifting his shirt, showing them his badge and gun, and saying, "You seen the movie "Training Day"? Yeah, that's what I do."

Posted by: Assault Country Singer at February 10, 2013 01:40 PM (mDanm)

120
and he Ewok is out of the box with this gem:
"some sections of new york are buried under 30 inches of accumulation of #tnrdiversity."

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 01:41 PM (ZW6K8)

121 91 They'll be back

Posted by: DAve at February 10, 2013 01:42 PM (XDC0v)

122 And why is eliminating deductions not a tax hike you RINO SOB?

***

I could get on bard with closing tax loopholes that only a few well-armed companies use to escape paying [isomething, but cutting spending should come first.

Folks don't mind paying taxes, we mind paying taxes in order to fund the pig shit being thrown around in D.C.

Presently, if a company or an individual can exploit the tax code to allow them to legally pay less, then I have no problem with it.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:42 PM (piMMO)

123 And why is eliminating deductions not a tax hike you RINO SOB?
Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 01:36 PM (53z96)

If he means flat tax I'd agree!

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at February 10, 2013 01:42 PM (FsUAO)

124 119 If Dan was your boyfriend you'd have the perfect nic

Posted by: DAve at February 10, 2013 01:43 PM (XDC0v)

125 Yeah, that's what I do."
Posted by: Assault Country Singer at February 10, 2013 01:40 PM (mDanm)

Get shot in the ass then killed by Russians?

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at February 10, 2013 01:44 PM (FsUAO)

126 125 bang Eva Mendes?

Posted by: DAve at February 10, 2013 01:44 PM (XDC0v)

127 Years ago when I lived in San Diego I was dating a girl whose brother had just joined the LAPD. A few weeks after he graduated from the academy he came to visit us and we went to the local bar for some drinks. This dumbass took his issued handgun with him, tucked into the front of his pants, and was trying to pick up on girls by lifting his shirt, showing them his badge and gun, and saying, "You seen the movie "Training Day"? Yeah, that's what I do."


***

What a dick. I assume he passed the psych test.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:45 PM (piMMO)

128 Wanna bet those "credentials" to carry will also include sports stars, actors, and musicians?

----------------

And David Gregory.

Posted by: slug at February 10, 2013 01:45 PM (vVv3V)

129 >remind me, what happened in '08 to cause that???

Tea Party creation?

Rampant racism by racist racists?

Bitter clinging?
Posted by: Mama AJ, Assault Poiser at February 10, 2013 01:38 PM (SUKHu)





David Archuleta was robbed that year on American Idol?????

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at February 10, 2013 01:45 PM (MBqvE)

130 David Archuleta was robbed that year on American Idol?????

****

Hand in your man card.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:46 PM (piMMO)

131 I'm still waiting for someone, anyone in the MBM to report the trigger happy nature of the LAPD. There have been minor mentions, I guess, but it's almost like they've been Benghazied.

Posted by: huerfano at February 10, 2013 01:47 PM (bAGA/)

132 127 NDH,

The reverence given to psych evals that are conducted once maybe twice is hilarious....

Dorner passed because he knows what responses are expected and he is firmly confident at his cognitive construct's sanctity.

He is totally convinced of the justice of his stance.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:47 PM (LRFds)

133
David Archuleta was robbed that year on American Idol?????

****

Hand in your man card.
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:46 PM (piMMO)








In my own defense, I had to look it up. Wanted to find something suitably ghey to close the joke.

Ahhhh, fuckit. *feeds Man Card into shredder*

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at February 10, 2013 01:49 PM (MBqvE)

134 The Grammy Awards are being held tonight at the Staples Center and LAPD says they are heightening security

I'll bet those rap thugs with the cop killer lyrics will go over real big with the guys outside

Dorner manhunt: LAPD, Grammys tight-lipped on effect on security

http://tinyurl.com/ccz26w9

Posted by: kbdabear at February 10, 2013 01:49 PM (mCvL4)

135 He is totally convinced of the justice of his stance.

***

As someone noted (maybe you?) these guys have been keeping a list of all their grievances for years. They remember every little wrong done to them.

Did you see the training vid of Dorner that was released yesterday? The folks on FNC noted that he seemed t be more aggressive than the other officers around him.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:49 PM (piMMO)

136
Speaking of guns, look at the commies in blue on drudge right now. They be packin'.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 10, 2013 01:50 PM (p/cQy)

137 So I got this popping up on my Tublr:

Since Robert Kennedy died in the Ambassador Hotel on June 4, 1968, more
Americans have died from gunfire than died in all the -- all the wars,
all the wars of this country's history, from the Revolutionary through
the Civil War, World War I, World War II, in those 43 years.The total number of fatalities from all American wars is slightly less
than 1.2 million, while thetotal number of people killed by guns since
1968, according to the CDC, is almost 1.4 million.



This data ought to accompany any talk about gun policy.

Of course this was confirmed "true" by PolitFact so make of it what you will.

Posted by: DavidJ at February 10, 2013 01:50 PM (1JK0g)

138 Just remember what the Dems consider a loophole. It is a deduction that normal people get like home mortgage interest. But a $5,000 credit for an electric car is a needed deduction.

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 01:53 PM (53z96)

139 Speaking of guns, look at the commies in blue on drudge right now. They be packin'

***

The women, of course, must wear skirts.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:54 PM (piMMO)

140 135 NDH,

I did make the point I also pointed out that what is fueling these mass shootings is the failure of the state to allow people to demand and enforce deference to a common set of ethical standards and the suppression of the Christian concept of releasing vendetta.

I have not seen the Dorner video b/c I am trying not to get angrier than I already am on the topic. His being more aggressive than other candidates or probationary level officers makes sense since he was trained to military standards of the application of force. That factor was one of the reasons I was told by a police sgt I respected that I was not psychologically wired for patrol style police work because of the differences in acceptable levels of application of force.

Frankly I am deeply concerned about the psychology of CoIn operations impacting dedicated combat operations, and the concerns were serious enough there was talk of DoD doing a study.

I'll dig and see if it was ever done.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:54 PM (LRFds)

141 138 Vic,

Correct Vic, they find the notion of sunk expenses for business being a deduction a "loophole" but credits and deductions for engaging in moonbat approved activity being "a sensible exercise of the tax code for good."

It is why I favor a Constitutional repealing the 16th amendment and moving to a pure VAT.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:56 PM (LRFds)

142
>>The total number of fatalities from all American wars is slightly less
than 1.2 million<<


I thought we slaughtered that many in Iraq alone to get their oil?

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 01:57 PM (A6HKq)

143 134
The Grammy Awards are being held tonight at the Staples Center and LAPD says they are heightening security

I'll bet those rap thugs with the cop killer lyrics will go over real big with the guys outside

Dorner manhunt: LAPD, Grammys tight-lipped on effect on security

http://tinyurl.com/ccz26w9



Posted by: kbdabear at February 10, 2013 01:49 PM

If I were LL Cool J, I'd skip the awards tonight. LAPD is going apeshit on lookalike trucks no less than lookalike persons

Posted by: kbdabear at February 10, 2013 01:57 PM (mCvL4)

144 If I were LL Cool J, I'd skip the awards tonight. LAPD is going apeshit on lookalike trucks no less than lookalike persons

*****

Heh

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:58 PM (piMMO)

145 Just spent a half hour looking for 22lr on line....nothing but shot shells, colibris and blanks....is govt. buying up 22lr too? wth?

Posted by: BignJames at February 10, 2013 01:58 PM (HtUkt)

146 Ladycops Love Cool J.

Posted by: James Todd Smith at February 10, 2013 01:59 PM (A6HKq)

147 It finally happened....

China has surpassed the US as the world's largest goods based economy.

*salute* democrats....your policies made it all possible.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 01:59 PM (LRFds)

148 If I were LL Cool J, I'd skip the awards tonight. LAPD is going apeshit on lookalike trucks no less than lookalike persons

***

LLCJ was always one of the "nice" rappers but I have one song on my Iphone that is just dirty.

I'm that Kind of Guy makes me giggle like a school girl.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 01:59 PM (piMMO)

149
139 navy chicks never looked like that

Posted by: navycopjoe at February 10, 2013 02:00 PM (LbF6w)

150 I thought we slaughtered that many in Iraq alone to get their oil?


Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 01:57 PM (A6HKq)


But Iraqis don't count. They're brown people, doncha know? They get special victim status elsewhere in the Left's spectrum of victimology. Believing two mutually contradictory "facts" at one time isn't a bug, it's a feature.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at February 10, 2013 02:00 PM (673KB)

151 sockoff

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 02:00 PM (A6HKq)

152
So I got this popping up on my Tublr:

Since Robert Kennedy died in the Ambassador Hotel on June 4, 1968, more
Americans have died from gunfire than died in all the -- all the wars,
all the wars of this country's history, from the Revolutionary through
the Civil War, World War I, World War II, in those 43 years.The total number of fatalities from all American wars is slightly less
than 1.2 million, while thetotal number of people killed by guns since
1968, according to the CDC, is almost 1.4 million.



This data ought to accompany any talk about gun policy.

Of course this was confirmed "true" by PolitFact so make of it what you will.
Posted by: DavidJ at February 10, 2013 01:50 PM (1JK0g)








True, yes. But they measure from the wrong data point. It's not from the RFK assassination (which by itself is irrelevant), but from enactment of the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at February 10, 2013 02:00 PM (MBqvE)

153 Time to turn on FNS and see if Wallace grills San Fran Nan half as hard as he did LaPierre last weekend.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:01 PM (piMMO)

154 They're talking about all Americans killed. Personally, I'm not buying it until I see it from a credible source.

Posted by: DavidJ at February 10, 2013 02:01 PM (1JK0g)

155 I'm sure it's been said a million times, but bears repeating:

It's all about the control, not about the gun.
It's all about the control, not about the gun.
It's all about the control, not about the gun.
It's all about the control, not about the gun.
It's all about the control, not about the gun.

Posted by: model_1066 at February 10, 2013 02:01 PM (7xPCu)

156 I am not in favor of a VAT. I would go with a 10% flat tax on all income regardless of source. No deduction no credits and no floor. ALL income.

Posted by: Vic at February 10, 2013 02:02 PM (53z96)

157 M97 riot gun/trench broom.

Like the M12, you can fire it by holding the trigger and pumping.

Posted by: george at February 10, 2013 02:03 PM (qBLA2)

158 157 George,

along with older M37s...

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:04 PM (LRFds)

159 Surprised that nobody has keyed on the one common denominator of the civilians shot by the cops in LA.

Pickup trucks.

Obviously we need comprehensive truck control. Seriously, there's no valid reason for a civilian to own a high capacity assault pickup.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at February 10, 2013 02:04 PM (XLQXo)

160 I am not in favor of a VAT. I would go with a 10% flat tax on all income regardless of source. No deduction no credits and no floor. ALL income.

***

Which is, IIRC, Ben Carson's suggestion as well.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:04 PM (piMMO)

161 while thetotal number of people killed by guns since

1968, according to the CDC, is almost 1.4 million.


Maybe I am not understanding this correctly, but are you saying that over 31,000 Americans are killed by guns every year? I don't believe that for a second.

Posted by: Peaches at February 10, 2013 02:04 PM (kpCLl)

162 156 Vic,

I am only in favor of a VAT because if you leave the legality of the Income Tax they will find ways around the 10%

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:04 PM (LRFds)

163 Obviously we need comprehensive truck control. Seriously, there's no valid reason for a civilian to own a high capacity assault pickup.

***

How about SUVs?

Can I keep my Jeep?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:04 PM (piMMO)

164 Since Robert Kennedy died in the Ambassador Hotel on June 4, 1968, more

Americans have died from gunfire than died in all the -- all the wars,

all the wars of this country's history, from the Revolutionary through

the Civil War, World War I, World War II, in those 43 years.The
total number of fatalities from all American wars is slightly less

than 1.2 million,

****

That is total bullshit. Where are they getting their data?
Plus this
Since Robert Kennedy died in the Ambassador Hotel

There have been 40+ million abortions
Doctor mistakes have killed 16+ million

Posted by: Dept. of Accuracy Dept. at February 10, 2013 02:06 PM (MhA4j)

165 In the context of improving firearms skills:

"Practice DOESN'T make perfect . . . PERFECT practice makes perfect."

In a similar vein, instruction doesn't contribute to improving your firearms skills, only GOOD instruction can do that.

There are many good instructors out there, but there are orders of magnitude more bad instructors (most of whom, in fairness, simply don't know how bad they are). A great many instructors I've met can't themselves shoot at a reasonably high level of competence--say, A-class shooter on the USPSA scale, or Master class in IDPA. Any instructor who hasn't themselves mastered the fundamental elements shouldn't be holding themselves out as a shooting instructor. Firearms safety, sure, basic instruction on the manual of arms and how to safely have the gun make a loud noise, sure. But there's a huge difference between being able to slowly play the first couple dozen notes from Stairway to Heaven on a guitar and being a guitarist.

I'm an NRA certified instructor myself (rifle, pistol, personal protection), and have been for 20+ years, and at least when I got certified there was NO requirement that I demonstrate the ability to shoot a gun at ANY level of proficiency. At the time I was a B/C shooter in USPSA, so rather middling (to be generous about it). So, an NRA instructor MAY be a very good shooting instructor, but that certification alone doesn't make him (or her) one.

For anyone in the northeast looking for truly high-level instruction, I strongly recommend a fellow named George Harris. He's the former director of the SigSauer Academy in New Hampshire, and still teaches privately. Previous instruction by such "renowned" instructors as Jeff Cooper (RIP), Ken Hackathorn, and Mas Ayoob had not meaningfully improved my shooting, but George enabled me to break through several levels in a matter of weeks. A great shooter, and an even better teacher. (Link in my sig, if I did it right.)

Posted by: Boston12GS at February 10, 2013 02:06 PM (iZ0BY)

166 I do a full-court press on lefties wanting gun control, asking why they're so goddamned racist. I mean after all, thousands of blacks murder each other every year with guns, and they don't seem to care. A relative handful of cherubic white kids get killed by a white freak in one incident, and then it's OMG!!! DO SOMETHING!!! Only racism could explain that.

Posted by: model_1066 at February 10, 2013 02:06 PM (7xPCu)

167 Surprised that nobody has keyed on the one common denominator of the civilians shot by the cops in LA.

The fact that 7 cops shooting hundreds of rounds into an unarmored pickup truck at two little hispanic ladies delivering newspapers only managed to put one of them in the hospital? Those ladies are just darn lucky it was cops and not the local gangbangers . . .

Posted by: Peaches at February 10, 2013 02:06 PM (kpCLl)

168 Perfect opportunity to upgrade to an 870.Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 12:50 PM (KiEyK)From my perspective this is not an upgrade. My 835 has a real wood stock that beyond beautiful. I'm fairly certain my friends 870 (possibly an express) has a synthetic wood-look-a-like that isn't nearly as pretty.Plus the weight is all wrong. (Although he tires less easily carrying the gun long distances.)Speaking of that. Anyone got any tips for Trap shooting. I haven't been in a loooooonnnnnngggggggg time. Not that I was ever in practice in the first place, but I figure if I'm starting from scratch I might as well learn correctly this time rather than "approach line, pull trigger, laugh".

Posted by: tsrblke at February 10, 2013 02:07 PM (GaqMa)

169 That is total bullshit. Where are they getting their data?
Plus this
Since Robert Kennedy died in the Ambassador Hotel

There have been 40+ million abortions
Doctor mistakes have killed 16+ million

***

How many have been killed by the flu and the AIDS?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:07 PM (piMMO)

170 Heart disease?

Diabetes?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:07 PM (piMMO)

171 Grammy Awards. Yeah that would be an excellent platform for Dorner. Sneak in there. Then in prime time just take the place over. And the LAPD would be standing their with their thumbs up the squeakholes.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 02:07 PM (VpkjW)

172 I thought we slaughtered that many in Iraq alone to get their oil?

Hell, that was just the children. And their puppies.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at February 10, 2013 02:08 PM (XLQXo)

173 I do a full-court press on lefties wanting gun control, asking why they're so goddamned racist. I mean after all, thousands of blacks murder each other every year with guns, and they don't seem to care. A relative handful of cherubic white kids get killed by a white freak in one incident, and then it's OMG!!! DO SOMETHING!!! Only racism could explain that.

****

I have no idea what you're talking about.


*whistles*

Posted by: Margaret Sanger at February 10, 2013 02:09 PM (piMMO)

174 @ Peaches: I'm not buying it either. This got forwarded to me from a hippy friend of mine and I can't find confirmation anywhere. I had hoped this would be familiar to someone here who could point me to a credible source. If this was completely true, why isn't CNN trying to cram this down my throat every night?

Posted by: DavidJ at February 10, 2013 02:10 PM (1JK0g)

175 Heart disease?

Diabetes?Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:07 PM (piMMO)
I have it on good authority from a doctor friend of mine that the former there is a bogus statistic. Well not bogus. But after we stopped allowing doctors to write "old age" as a cause of death, doctors have been writing "heart failure" on many certificates just as a matter of putting something down when there's not an apparent cause other than "old."

Posted by: tsrblke at February 10, 2013 02:10 PM (GaqMa)

176 How many have been killed by the flu and the AIDS?

Flu kills an average of 50,000 a year
I remember a particularly bad year where it was north of 165,000

Posted by: Dept. of Accuracy Dept. at February 10, 2013 02:11 PM (MhA4j)

177 161 Peaches,

That is correct. They are including suicides in the statistic. That is retarded.

60% of adult gun deaths are suicides in an average year.

The idea or notion that 1/1000th of the population dies from guns each year is retarded.

We are a nation of rights and laws with adherence to the concept of self-defense.

Part of the issue is the lack of removing shootings classed as justified homicide.

The objective is to make things seem as bad as possible.


Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:12 PM (LRFds)

178 Notice how wise ass pundits and comics do a thick hick bubba accent about shootin' people and ownin' lots of guns

I guess it's funnier to their audience since it was loners, goths, and geeks from blue states doing the mass killings rather than Bubba and his pickup with the gun rack

Posted by: kbdabear at February 10, 2013 02:13 PM (mCvL4)

179 I'm not buying it either. This got forwarded to me from a hippy friend of mine and I can't find confirmation anywhere. I had hoped this would be familiar to someone here who could point me to a credible source. If this was completely true, why isn't CNN trying to cram this down my throat every night?
Posted by: DavidJ at February 10, 2013 02:10 PM (1JK0g)
I've heard this stat before, and I think it includes suicides. Which is why you don't hear much about it. The sad fact is, even if you ban guns completely and magically wish them out of existence,the suicide rate is unlikely to drop, so it's not even close to a winning argument. So you'll get people parroting it without context and then running away, but no one would seriously bring it up in a debate (because they'd get their ass handed to them on it)(Note, not an argument for banning guns! Just an observation of the twisting of a statistic)

Posted by: tsrblke at February 10, 2013 02:13 PM (GaqMa)

180 178 Notice how wise ass pundits and comics do a thick hick bubba accent about shootin' people and ownin' lots of guns

I guess it's funnier to their audience since it was loners, goths, and geeks from blue states doing the mass killings rather than Bubba and his pickup with the gun rack

Posted by: kbdabear at February 10, 2013 02:13 PM (mCvL4)

They are bitterly clinging to their preferred narrative, or something.

Posted by: model_1066 at February 10, 2013 02:14 PM (7xPCu)

181 for example in 2010 "gun deaths" are ~31500 BUT suicides made up ~19750 of that number.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:14 PM (LRFds)

182 Spanish Influenza of 1918-1919. Something like 675,000 Americans were killed by it. Mortality rate of 2.5%.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 02:14 PM (VpkjW)

183 Notice how wise ass pundits and comics do a thick hick bubba accent about shootin' people and ownin' lots of guns

Posted by: kbdabear


It's the only 'safe' accent to mock, so considering most comics are lazy hacks ...

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 10, 2013 02:14 PM (NTBjC)

184 I have it on good authority from a doctor friend of mine that the former there is a bogus statistic. Well not bogus. But after we stopped allowing doctors to write "old age" as a cause of death, doctors have been writing "heart failure" on many certificates just as a matter of putting something down when there's not an apparent cause other than "old."


***

I have CHF and Dilated Cardiomyopathy and find it difficult to find stats on which I can rely because they are so very heavily weighted for the old folks.

I don't know if that's because more elderly really do suffer from heart failure or from, as you indicated, a stuffing of statistics.

For instance, the average life expectancy for someone with my condition is 5 years, but how slanted is that stat? What is the average life expectancy of someone under 50 with CHF?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:15 PM (piMMO)

185 Part of the issue is the lack of removing shootings classed as justified homicide.

The objective is to make things seem as bad as possible.




Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:12 PM (LRFds)


Of course the Left sees no homicide as justifiable, except of course unborn children, newborn children, cops, and cops' relatives; that would permit capital punishment.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at February 10, 2013 02:15 PM (673KB)

186
High capacity commie assault stompy boots.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 10, 2013 02:15 PM (p/cQy)

187 They are including suicides in the statistic. That is retarded.

fuckin' shitbirds . . .

Posted by: Peaches at February 10, 2013 02:16 PM (kpCLl)

188 181 for example in 2010 "gun deaths" are ~31500 BUT suicides made up ~19750 of that number.
Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:14 PM (LRFds)

Which would probably lead the gun-grabbing douchebags to assume that just owning a gun makes people suicidal. They're stupid like that.

Posted by: model_1066 at February 10, 2013 02:16 PM (7xPCu)

189 but are you saying that over 31,000 Americans are killed by guns every year? I don't believe that for a second.

IIRC, the number that was always cited was 9,000 per year. 31,000 sounds more like the number killed in car accidents,

Posted by: t-bird at February 10, 2013 02:16 PM (FcR7P)

190 This tweet is from a lefty with Anonymous but it's still kind of funny;

Anonymous ‏@YourAnonNews

#LAPD 'Don't worry citizens. Even If we have to shoot everyone in LA, we'll get him eventually."


Posted by: kbdabear at February 10, 2013 02:16 PM (mCvL4)

191 #LAPD 'Don't worry citizens. Even If we have to shoot everyone in LA, we'll get him eventually."


***

I LOL'd

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:17 PM (piMMO)

192 The important number for this argument is the number of Long gun homicides per annum...

2010 that number was 733.

Piers Morgan wants to remove the most effective weapon with the lowest incidence of homicide from American shooters....

FUCK YOU piers handguns kill 6 for every 1....

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:18 PM (LRFds)

193 For those of you who don't have the dubious pleasure to reside in the People's Soviet Socialist Republic of Commiefornia, here's how it works here now with accidental police shootings:

(a) Cop who opens fire by accident is a white male. His career is instantly nuked. He's fired from the force within hours, which will decline to offer him legal assistance during the next phase, which is having the DA try to hang a Murder One rap round his neck.

(b) Cop who opens fire by accident is female or nonwhite or both. No real consequences ensue. There are no murder or manslaughter charges brought. They are allowed to stay on the force with no punishment or reduction in rank. Usually they are pulled from patrol duties for a few weeks and are sent for "counseling" or "retraining".

Given that the LAPD chief has said that the cops in these incidents of unleashing fusillades of fire on people who look nothing like the suspect, in vehicles that look nothing like the suspect's vehicle, would all be sent for "retraining", that right there is a big fat clue about who the trigger happy cops are.

Posted by: torquewrench at February 10, 2013 02:18 PM (gqT4g)

194 Haven't read comments, BUT will you all stop linking to the fucking LA Times and their damn firewall. Not only can you not read the story, it will not let you leave teh site. Fuck the LA Times.

Posted by: Billy Bob, Pseudo Intellectual at February 10, 2013 02:19 PM (wR+pz)

195 185 Alberta Oil Peon,

I fear you're more correct than you know. Bing the white paper the NAACP released on why they are against armed guards in schools. It is illuminating.

If the mules take back the house we'll be England on self-defense within 10 years.

Assholes.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:19 PM (LRFds)

196 kbdabear, they will destroy the village to save the village.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 02:20 PM (VpkjW)

197 Haven't read comments, BUT will you all stop linking to the fucking LA Times and their damn firewall. Not only can you not read the story, it will not let you leave teh site. Fuck the LA Times.

***

My daughter is dating a young man who's sister, my daughter tells me, is a Republican.

Then she tells me she is the entertainment editor at the LAT.

My response: *Sigh* We need to talk.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:21 PM (piMMO)

198 The LAPD announces that they will have to nuke LA from orbit...it's the only way to be sure.

Posted by: model_1066 at February 10, 2013 02:21 PM (7xPCu)

199 in 2010 there were ~39750 suicides....

maybe we need suicide control?

Oh no wait donkey ass motherfucker is in love with suicide if Jack Kevorkian gets involved...

their internal moral compass looks like a fucking gyroscope....

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:22 PM (LRFds)

200
for example in 2010 "gun deaths" are ~31500 BUT suicides made up ~19750 of that number.

Next up : We must ban assault buildings. Nobody needs a building with more than 2 storeys!

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2013 02:23 PM (A6HKq)

201 I don't know if that's because more elderly really do suffer from heart failure or from, as you indicated, a stuffing of statistics.

For instance, the average life expectancy for someone with my condition is 5 years, but how slanted is that stat? What is the average life expectancy of someone under 50 with CHF?Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:15 PM (piMMO)
NDH,I can't speak to the Cardiomyopathy, but our treatment mechanisms for CHF are surprisingly good. I don't have them at hand, but IIRC when I last looked them up most people suffering for CHF died of either a) unrelated ailments or b) were just unable to cope with the stress of CHF due to age (so they were generally unhealthy anyway, and the CHF was the tipping point.)So the TL;DR is...as I remember (this is all based on memory) yeah, those stats are not very useful.

Posted by: tsrblke at February 10, 2013 02:23 PM (GaqMa)

202 "Which would probably lead the gun-grabbing douchebags to assume that
just owning a gun makes people suicidal. They're stupid like that."

That and "If they didn't have a gun, they wouldn't have had the means to kill themselves" or "Having a gun makes suicide on impulse much more likely." Of course my favorite is how passing concealed carry laws guarantees a return to shootouts in the streets wild west style because people cannot control their impulses. And yet, despite concealed carry passing in state after state, that never happens. As FrankJ says, they now have many, many real world examples of what happens when people are allowed to exercise their right to own and bear firearms and not once has is resulted in the violent bloodbath that is always predicted.

Posted by: DavidJ at February 10, 2013 02:23 PM (1JK0g)

203 Cop who opens fire by accident is female or nonwhite or both.

Not only can I get you a job you may be totally unqualified for, I make sure you can continue to really suck at that job after you get it!

Posted by: Affirmative Action at February 10, 2013 02:24 PM (vbh31)

204 Oh no wait donkey ass motherfucker is in love with suicide if Jack Kevorkian gets involved...

Given their position on abortion (I CAN DO WHAT I WANT WITH MY OWN BODY), shouldn't they consider suicide a constitutional right, as well (as in the police can't stop you)?

Posted by: zsasz at February 10, 2013 02:24 PM (MMC8r)

205

>>Not only can I get you a job you may be totally unqualified for, I make sure you can continue to really suck at that job after you get it! <<


Where do I sign up?

Posted by: President Affirmative Action Jackson at February 10, 2013 02:25 PM (A6HKq)

206 You can be an awesome shot with a rifle and also be craptacular at wingshooting


Years ago I was at a sporting clays fund raiser and Wayne LaPerrie was there. He is a hell of a guy, very polite. Worked the crowd like a pro.

So he gets to the first station and he can not hit shit. No one says a word. After the third station he is still stinking it up, and everyone is a little nervous.

He started laughing and said, "You know it the National RIFE Association, not the National Shotgun Association.

That broke the crowd up and they didn't give a shit that he still couldn't hit shit with a shotgun.

Posted by: Billy Bob, Pseudo Intellectual at February 10, 2013 02:25 PM (wR+pz)

207 Ahhhh, the gun thread! It makes my Sunday! Thanks guys!

I can't find any .22's in quantity at decent price either.

I had to pay almost 800 bucks for a 1000 round box pf 7.62 x 51 mm. I was getting it at less than 1/2 that price before. Sheesh!

I gave up on even looking for an AR-15. I will just stick with the SKS's, the AK's, M1A, and trusty ole 870.

BTW I took Biden's advice and bought another shotgun for Home defense. Although I'm sure a Saiga 12 with 20 round drums was not what he had in mind!

Thank God, I had the foresight to stock up on ammo when it was cheap. (Buy it cheap and stack it deep!).

Well 7.62 x 54r (80-90 bucks for a 440 tin) and some hunting ammo seem to be the only calibers not adversely affected by this insanity.

Posted by: Judge_Roy_bean at February 10, 2013 02:26 PM (cCxiu)

208 Having a gun makes suicide on impulse much more likely.

Why would they care? It's perfectly in line with euthanasia and death panels. The only drawback is that they don't get to charge any fees for their services.

Posted by: t-bird at February 10, 2013 02:26 PM (FcR7P)

209 "Which would probably lead the gun-grabbing douchebags to assume that
just owning a gun makes people suicidal. They're stupid like that."

****

Just standing on the edge of a cliff will make one jump.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:26 PM (piMMO)

210 Oh noes!!! Sending the drones after Dorner? No not the ACLU drones.
http://tinyurl.com/bdm3utf

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 02:26 PM (VpkjW)

211 202 David J,

I posted the total number of suicides...so folks somehow managed to find ways other than guns more than half the time....

The US is ~#16 in the world in suicides per 100,000 how do the South Koreans manage given their gun laws?

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:27 PM (LRFds)

212
Posted by: zsasz at February 10, 2013 02:24 PM (MMC8r)

The current restrictions on Physician assisted suicide certainly aren't philosophically consistent.
(I don't agree with PAS in any case, but I'm especially confused by the current system as it is set up.)
So yeah... the libs can't figure out what to do with that one. (But logically you're being consistent yes.)
But they're little libby heads would explode when you explained to them that these things *GASP* effect others and no man is an island.

Posted by: tsrblke at February 10, 2013 02:27 PM (GaqMa)

213 My brorther was a deputy sheriff for 21 years, he worked gang territories and white trash oil patch in Bakersfield. He never once beat, hit or threatened to hit anyone with a baton. His shift partners (backup patrol) told me they never - in the many years of their association with him - saw him even pull his baton. He was an exception worth noting.

Lots of police are pretty damn heavy handed with the losers, drug addicts and violent criminals they encounter during the course of a shift, especially so in bad neighborhoods. they even become pretty hostile to soccer mom and football dad. Never mind the smart-ass teenagers.

I guess my point is this: after years of working in high stress situations police [people] become hardened and, frankly, mean.

My brother transferred from patrol to the other side of the building and worked as a bailiff - and was a much happier man because of it.

Cops get worn down and should be retired long before their "freshness date" is up.


Posted by: 13times at February 10, 2013 02:27 PM (h6XiD)

214 Given their position on abortion (I CAN DO WHAT I WANT WITH MY OWN BODY), shouldn't they consider suicide a constitutional right, as well (as in the police can't stop you)?


"I can do what I want with my own body" only applies if it supports the expansion of hedonism. Otherwise, you're not qualified to determine how to live your life. Also, support for abortion is more about denying that unborn children are human. The hard-core left has no problem with forced abortions when "necessary".

Posted by: Colorado Alex at February 10, 2013 02:27 PM (hpDVh)

215 "The search for fugitive ex-cop Christopher Jordan Dorner continued in the Big Bear area Sunday, but the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department said it had cut by half the number of personnel deployed in the effort."

I guess this mean they are coming around to the idea that he ain't in the fucking mountains after all.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 10, 2013 02:30 PM (NTBjC)

216
That and "If they didn't have a gun, they wouldn't have had the means to kill themselves" or "Having a gun makes suicide on impulse much more likely."

Those fuckers need to spend 1 day working in an ER.
I spent 3 months volunteering in a pediatric ER, I can assure you this is totally not true.
I think I saw one GSW, it was gang related. Saw a couple of attempted suicides though, not 1 single gun.
It takes a shitload more effort to load the gun, point it and pull the trigger than it does to down a bottle of Benadryl. (Also saw one attempted suicide with Tylenol, found out you can't actually do that. It's not that you won't die, it's that you die far to slow of liver failure. So the rescue rate is nearly 100%. As a nurse said when they brought that young lady in "all Tylenol does is push you to the top of the transplant list.")

Posted by: tsrblke at February 10, 2013 02:31 PM (GaqMa)

217 In the mid 60's, while in my late teens, Builders Hardware in downtown Charlotte had a full rack of nothing but model 97 trench guns. Condition was good to awful but all were shoot able. Price was $75 to $125. Occasionally an Ithaca 37 trench gun would appear. Ah, the real good old days.

Posted by: Agitator at February 10, 2013 02:32 PM (BvjRZ)

218 weft cut-loop. Seems they are talking of using drone IR cameras to try and find Dorner.

Anyone remember Blue Thunder?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 02:32 PM (VpkjW)

219 215 Weft-Cut Loop,

Yup he is wasting their money and prestige for them.

Astounding.

The amount of time he has been at large he can be literally anywhere in the ConUS.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:32 PM (LRFds)

220 Actually, suicide could make government so much money if they'd make the Death Tax universal, and save them so much money w/ unpaid benefits, I'm betting Logan's Run becomes the new guidebook for ObamaCare's next expansion.

Posted by: zsasz at February 10, 2013 02:34 PM (MMC8r)

221 Yup he is wasting their money and prestige for them.

Astounding.

The amount of time he has been at large he can be literally anywhere in the ConUS.

Yup. That was also true on Thursday afternoon. However, they're in uncharted waters with this guy and I wouldn't want to be the one making the command decisions here. Does seem like a ridiculous exercise, though.

Posted by: Peaches at February 10, 2013 02:34 PM (kpCLl)

222 The amount of time he has been at large he can be literally anywhere in the ConUS.
Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:32 PM (LRFds)

or Mexico

Posted by: Jake in ID at February 10, 2013 02:34 PM (jfSqj)

223 LAPD believes Dorner may still be in Angeles Forest. No word if they've requested napalm for their helicopter search teams

Posted by: kbdabear at February 10, 2013 02:35 PM (mCvL4)

224 The jury said Manslaughter due to "diminished capacity". Quite a legal feat when you ponder it.

The famous "Twinkie Defense". Too much sugar.

As to my gun collection, beautiful weather here in NorCal. Gonna take them all out on the lake in a canoe and shoot them on the other side of the lake where I won't bother anyone. I wish the MFM would cover how sensitive and caring legal gun owners really are.

Posted by: eureka! at February 10, 2013 02:37 PM (HPRku)

225
222 nah, he's a narcacist with a Rambo dream
he's there in california

Posted by: navycopjoe at February 10, 2013 02:37 PM (LbF6w)

226 LAPD believes Dorner may still be in Angeles Forest. No word if they've requested napalm for their helicopter search teams
Posted by: kbdabear


Ok, you win the Internets.

Pls return it tomorrow. Make sure it's clean too.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 10, 2013 02:38 PM (NTBjC)

227 Dorner probably knows their ops tactics and also knows that he doesn't blend in with crowds easily. He may have a fugitive network hiding him or transporting him. He can't check into a Holiday Inn Express or eat at a Denny's taking the chance someone will call the cops after he's left

Posted by: kbdabear at February 10, 2013 02:38 PM (mCvL4)

228 In the 1950s my father bought an arsenal reconditioned1903 Springfield mail order from Montgomery Wards. In the 1960s my older brother removed the bayonet lug and saved us all from certain death. He also removed any collector's value.

Posted by: Phrank Leigh at February 10, 2013 02:38 PM (foGgf)

229 Almost related to Dorner and the LAPD. Watch the first 3:18 seconds of this.
http://youtu.be/SZkU2GYLA8Y

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 10, 2013 02:38 PM (VpkjW)

230 Got my dad's WWII Colt 45 cleaned after my concern it had gone full auto. It had not.

While I was in the shop with a few pistol permits, this fell into my shopping cart.


http://tinyurl.com/7eb6qpj


THE JUDGE!

Posted by: Billy Bob, Pseudo Intellectual at February 10, 2013 02:39 PM (wR+pz)

231 How are we supposed to keep up our interest in this Dorner guy if he doesn't keep tweeting or posting on Facebook? Doesn't he know how this infamy shit works in the 21st?

Posted by: zsasz at February 10, 2013 02:40 PM (MMC8r)

232 Thank you sven10077.

"Those fuckers need to spend 1 day working in an ER.
I spent 3 months volunteering in a pediatric ER, I can assure you this is totally not true.
I think I saw one GSW, it was gang related. Saw a couple of attempted suicides though, not 1 single gun.
It takes a shitload more effort to load the gun, point it and pull the trigger than it does to down a bottle of Benadryl."

I live a pretty quiet life myself. The only suicide attempt I personally had to deal with involved a coworker taking a bottle of Tylenol. She was found and sent to the hospital before too much damage could be done.

Posted by: DavidJ at February 10, 2013 02:41 PM (1JK0g)

233
227 he's most likely holed up in a black neighborhood
they should offer a reward of a date with beyonce

Posted by: navycopjoe at February 10, 2013 02:41 PM (LbF6w)

234 Million dollar reward for the LA guy.

That should bring out the brothers that are hiding him.

Posted by: Billy Bob, Pseudo Intellectual at February 10, 2013 02:42 PM (wR+pz)

235 Dorner probably knows their ops tactics and also knows that he doesn't
blend in with crowds easily. He may have a fugitive network hiding him
or transporting him. He can't check into a Holiday Inn Express or eat at
a Denny's taking the chance someone will call the cops after he's left


So how old are all those pictures showing him to be shaven-headed? Several months or years have passed since he was fired by the LAPD, I wonder if he's let his hair grow out. Give him a 'fro, or dreadlocks, a hoodie, and some tribal tats, and he could melt into the scenery. People see what they expect to see.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at February 10, 2013 02:43 PM (673KB)

236 The whole LAPD's gone ED 209.

Posted by: zsasz at February 10, 2013 02:43 PM (MMC8r)

237
My response: *Sigh* We need to talk.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 10, 2013 02:21 PM (piMMO)


They are probably both the ghey.

Posted by: Billy Bob, Pseudo Intellectual at February 10, 2013 02:43 PM (wR+pz)

238 221 Peaches,

While I appreciate you pointing out this is a highly variable command and control environment the fact of the matter is that LAPD's antics on the manhunt phase indicate an out of control department that has lost sight of the necessary precision in the application of ruthless force.

The guy is not actually that much an anomaly in potential, and is if anything not the worst case scenario they could be facing.

You do recall many ONTs ago where I explained why I was hesitant to have combat veteran license plates on my wife's vehicle despite her being entitled to them?

I was warned by several people in the Louisiana State Police that officers can get very nervous when dealing with young veterans. This bothers me because I have seen no evidence that the behavior of the average soldier when accosted shows itself to be any less reasonable than many other subgroups when stopped, BUT I grasp and can sympathize with the fear of an officer interacting with a lethally trained individual with an entirely different conflict resolution and deference to threat psychological matrix. Cops are used to people being cowed by them, and most soldiers are never cowed by a cop.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:44 PM (LRFds)

239
232 I remember once at my last command, I was sitting with four of the patrol team and some chick off the ship sat down right by us and downed a bottle of Tylenol

I wanted to hand her my gun to see if she was serious

Posted by: navycopjoe at February 10, 2013 02:44 PM (LbF6w)

240 So libs are against UNassisted suicide?

Posted by: the poster formerly known as Mr Barky at February 10, 2013 02:45 PM (IJ1a2)

241 So libs are against UNassisted suicide?

Your life belongs to the State, comrade. Suicide requires government approval.

Posted by: zsasz at February 10, 2013 02:47 PM (MMC8r)

242 There will be no copyin' and pastin' from MS Word. Anyone one caught copyin' and pastin' from Word will spend the night in The Box

There are no ampersands here. Anyone complainin' about ampersands will spend the night in The Box

Linkin' to accidental lesbian pr0n is not allowed. Anyone linkin' to accidental lesbian pr0n will spend the night in The Box

I'm Carr the Threadwalker. You got questions, you come to me

Posted by: Carr the Threadwalker at February 10, 2013 02:47 PM (mCvL4)

243 So libs are against UNassisted suicide?

If it involves a civilian pulling the trigger, yes. Only licensed and credentialed persons should administer death.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at February 10, 2013 02:48 PM (XLQXo)

244 "The search for fugitive ex-cop Christopher Jordan Dorner continued in the Big Bear area Sunday, but the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department said it had cut by half the number of personnel deployed in the effort."

I guess this mean they are coming around to the idea that he ain't in the fucking mountains after all.
Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 10, 2013 02:30 PM (NTBjC)





More likely they're worried about the Overtime costs. San Berdoo was already bankrupt before this thing started.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at February 10, 2013 02:48 PM (MBqvE)

245
238 The guy is not actually that much an anomaly in potential, and is if anything not the worst case scenario they could be facing.

actually I disagree heavily
not only was he trained in police tactics, he was a swcc member (the seal support teams) meaning he also has advanced warfare training
and he's not afraid to die
and....not predictable because he's nuts

this guy is the textbook worst case

Posted by: navycopjoe at February 10, 2013 02:48 PM (LbF6w)

246 @242

Carr, you forgot no saying the N word or the C*nt word!

Posted by: Billy Bob, Pseudo Intellectual at February 10, 2013 02:49 PM (wR+pz)

247 232 DavidJ,

No thank you for your work in the medical community.

My first interaction with suicide was at age 6 when my half-sister's dad blew his brains out while my brother, his daughter and I went with our mother to get ice cream 2 blocks away. He had a rather nice library of old Life magazines and I was excited to have the opportunity to look at the Korean War era examples he had so I ran back to his place and ran through the door at full speed ahead of my sister and the others.

It is not at all like most movies depict it and the precision of the memory is finally fading with age.

I do remember my sister who was 14 not listening when I ran out after calling for help that mom needed to keep my sister out and my sister never being the same.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 02:49 PM (LRFds)

248 Dorner = Donald Defreeze.

Shoot out, burning houses and innocent dead people.

Posted by: 13times at February 10, 2013 02:50 PM (h6XiD)

249 The Box has been replaced with The Barrel. Anyone askin' about what the difference is will spend the night in The Barrel

Posted by: Carr the Threadwalker at February 10, 2013 02:50 PM (mCvL4)

250 246 or the P**** chick's name

Posted by: navycopjoe at February 10, 2013 02:50 PM (LbF6w)

251 Oh, wait a minute... do you mean unassisted suicide, i.e. self administered, or UN assisted suicide, conducted under the auspices of the Blue helmets?

If the former, no can do, if the later, we're working out the details now.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at February 10, 2013 02:50 PM (XLQXo)

252 @242

Night in the Box?



http://tinyurl.com/34lxw82

Posted by: Billy Bob, Pseudo Intellectual at February 10, 2013 02:51 PM (wR+pz)

253 Million dollar reward for the LA guy.

No shit, a million? That's crazy . . .

Posted by: Peaches at February 10, 2013 02:53 PM (kpCLl)

254 I have never been more proud to be a LaRue Tactical customer. I hope other manufacturers follow their lead.

Posted by: Mr_Fastbucks at February 10, 2013 02:54 PM (b67KU)

255 More likely they're worried about the Overtime costs. San Berdoo was already bankrupt before this thing started.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur


True but I'm sure if they requested funds from Sac-town they'd be made available.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 10, 2013 02:55 PM (NTBjC)

256 Early people ruin *everything*!

First of all, sven, whatchu thinkin? VAT tax is the most expensive, offloads the most expense onto businesses, and is almost universally used to micromanage the economy through exemptions and varying rates and enforcement. It's the Bureaucrat's Dream of taxes.

You want to see monopolies, the crushing of small business, and cronyism, look for a VAT tax. And, as always, all of it is paid by consumers, just less efficiently.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 10, 2013 02:57 PM (bxiXv)

257 Hey, ITC!! Actually, the bankruptcy was City of San Berdoo, I don't think the County was involved in that. Plus, Charlie Beck seems to be taking full responsibility for all this stuff, I think a lot of the boots on the ground are LAPD, regardless of location. And the dept. has protective details on 50 families mentioned in Dorner's manifesto, so they have to be getting stretched a pretty thin at this point.

Posted by: Peaches at February 10, 2013 02:57 PM (kpCLl)

258 Million dollar reward for the LA guy.

No shit, a million? That's crazy . . .


Posted by: Peaches at February 10, 2013 02:53 PM (kpCLl)


Cops are probably hoping to draw a fuckton of would-be bounty hunters out into the streets so they can off them, too. Cloward-Piven all the way.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at February 10, 2013 02:59 PM (673KB)

259 "No thank you for your work in the medical community."

Oh no, I'm not medical. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. I had copied a part of tsrblke's post to show I had read it. I'll get the hang of this system sooner or later. Currently, I am a middle manager in human resources specializing in education and training. It's quiet.

"So libs are against UNassisted suicide?"

If you're going to die prematurely, they would prefer you do it quietly under the aegis of the state in the approved camps. They'll let you know if you are in the undesirable group standing in the way of progress. It's not like you can resist when only the authorites have guns.

Posted by: DavidJ at February 10, 2013 03:00 PM (1JK0g)

260 Secondly, for practice, especially muscle-memory practice, consider a gas-powered or electric Airsoft gun. Some of them are very accurate replicas (as far as controls) of real guns. Not the $5-10 discount specials, which not only don't often have realistic controls, but they generally are not semi-automatic.

Do a little research and remember not to practice with one with your real gun in the same room - not a mistake you want to make - and use an adequate backstop just in case. They don't recoil like real guns, but that can actually help develop good habits.

Also good for mag changes, accessories, holster drills, etc.

Good ones can be had from $30 on up, probably mostly in the $50-70 range online. There are a lot of nice ones around $100, also will want to get a couple of mags. If you get one like your duty gun you can use your existing holster - but like I said, triple-check which one you're holding every time.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 10, 2013 03:02 PM (bxiXv)

261 Heh.

Ace's tear about the whitey-white New Republic came back to me while I'm reading about the Symbianese Liberation Army. Supposedly the leader of the Great Black Revolution(tm), but had only one black member and a bunch of lily-white pampered white folk.

Just like Billy Ayers.



Posted by: zsasz at February 10, 2013 03:05 PM (MMC8r)

262 256 Mero,

I agree, BUT the American people have been trained for destruction.

The politicians have shown they are either too stupid or evil to be trusted with flexibility.

I just want their desires controlled.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 03:06 PM (LRFds)

263 Re: Guns and suicide rates

There have been many studies, here is an article about one:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/9ku2mo6

(The study is linked there as a PDF)

The quotes death numbers from somebody's email or FB above also doesn't take time into effect, violence rates have been mostly falling for that period, the claim doesn't take time into effect because it would show diminishing rates and increasing gun ownership, which fly in the face of the assertion.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 10, 2013 03:07 PM (bxiXv)

264 Okay, FBI stats:
2011 there were 8,583 total murders in the US. Handguns accounted for 6,220 of the total. There were 323 murders by all types of rifles, and 1,694 by knives and other cutting instruments.

So, if limiting loss of life is your stated motive, why would you start your regulations with a particular type of rifle?

Excuse if someone beat me to it. I started and came back.

Posted by: Jose Wales at February 10, 2013 03:08 PM (lPbS1)

265 No shit, a million? That's crazy . .

That's the only way to tempt the lawyers who are taking up his cause.

Posted by: t-bird at February 10, 2013 03:09 PM (FcR7P)

266
No word if they've requested napalm for their helicopter search teams

C4+Tovex works well.

Posted by: W. Wilson Goode at February 10, 2013 03:11 PM (tOkJB)

267 The total number of fatalities from all American wars is slightly less than 1.2 million, while thetotal number of people killed by guns since 1968, according to the CDC, is almost 1.4 million.

Of course, our guys were armed.

Posted by: toby928© presents at February 10, 2013 03:11 PM (QupBk)

268 The politicians have shown they are either too stupid or evil to be trusted with flexibility.

I just want their desires controlled.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 03:06 PM (LRFds)


VAT taxes are the most "flexible" as far as politicians exercising power - they hide the taxes at POS and are used to coerce or punish almost invisibly by hiding it in a giant, complex maze of codes applying all along the supply chain.

There have been VAT systems that *started* simple but they tend not to stay that way. And you still force everyone in the supply chain to work for the collection agency.

If you want a sales tax, have a sales tax, don't hide it and rack up uncontrolled compliance hours in the process.

I don't even particularly like sales taxes, but at least the cost is partly out in the open.

They talk about the VAT in Britain like it's a sales tax but the number isn't the cost, it's the last link in the chain of cost.

I don't like income taxes either, but at least you know what it costs. There are too many fiddles, and I wish there was some way to get people to actually *see* the cost every month, if not pay it every month (the government would go mad and riot, probably, if you tried to do that).

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 10, 2013 03:13 PM (bxiXv)

269 "could you discuss marksmanship practice for the range?"

When it comes to pistol training, I suppose the first thing you should consider is the purpose of it. When Sykes and Fairbairn were training and qualifying Shanghai police officers, they were extremely limited in funds, which meant they barely had enough ammo to qualify their guys, so they had to maximize the training value of every practice round they had. They also had to emphasize those aspects which had greatest real-world value in the environment in which they operated.

Screw the fancy formal stance. There's no time for it. Screw taking careful aim. There's no time for that either and it will probably dark when you engage in a gunfight anyway, and your opponent will probably be less than 10 feet away. Thus, Fairbairn, Sykes, and others such as Grant-Taylor emphasized a fast presentation (as fast as possible) followed by a one-handed point-shooting style, with the goal being a quick center-mass hit. Using their limited funds, they constructed horror-house shooting ranges, with popup and moving targets, the first of their kind. It worked. They used their techniques as the basis for SOE and OSS training later, during WWII.

When I train with pistol, I shoot paper on the range every weekend since that's all that is available to me. I practice various two-handed stances at 7-15 yards: Weaver, modified isosceles, Chapman. At 5 yards, I practice almost exclusively one-handed, switching from right to left hand, and rarely use the sights. At home, I practice presentation endlessly with my carry weapon, being sure to dry-fire each time using snap-caps so that I also get in the habit of pressing the trigger each time I present.

That's how I do it, anyway. Yes, it would be nice to make the precise medulla oblongata 'apricot' shot with a standard handgun at 15 yards in the heat of a firefight. Me, I'm more interested in getting a center mass hit on the bad guy in 1.5 seconds or less.

That's how I train, anyway. He who hits first usually wins.

Posted by: troyriser at February 10, 2013 03:13 PM (ptcFO)

270 So, if limiting loss of life is your stated motive, why would you start your regulations with a particular type of rifle?

Posted by: Jose Wales at February 10, 2013 03:08 PM (lPbS1)


You wouldn't. It's divide and conquer, that's all.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 10, 2013 03:14 PM (bxiXv)

271 268 mero,

everyone needs negative response stimuli to reeducate them back to former standard of the cost of the welfare state IMHO.

I am quite aware of the detriments you're pointing out you and I have discussed them at length, but this is one of my shifts in response to 2012.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 03:15 PM (LRFds)

272 everyone needs negative response stimuli to reeducate them back to former standard of the cost of the welfare state IMHO.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 03:15 PM (LRFds)


Well it's not doing that in Europe, it's reduced them to subsistence peasants in an industrial world.

Ironically, some of them are practical enough to have low corporate taxes and just crank the screws down on the people, to keep the economy from collapsing. No such luck here (poor luck as it would be).

I understand the LIB impulse to not want to stroke out trying to stop a tidal wave with a soup spoon, but I don't sign onto MIB - I'm not going to sabotage my own economy or help people who are.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 10, 2013 03:28 PM (bxiXv)

273 Another threadkill for the scoreboard!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 10, 2013 03:30 PM (bxiXv)

274 272 Mero,

Mero I did my taxes and am a skilled preparer. I've been away from professional preparing work for the last two years to the point I went back to it with a less enraged perspective and got reenraged.

We are on pace for the Tax code to be "the lottery" to over 50% of the adult population in the country in Bambi's reign.

Bush fucked up.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 10, 2013 03:32 PM (LRFds)

275 The Walking Dead marathon should end all discussion of gun control.

Posted by: John the Libertarian at February 10, 2013 03:38 PM (oshol)

276 Thread's dead? Damn, I just got here.

Posted by: Jerry at February 10, 2013 03:38 PM (4SKYj)

277 276 Thread's dead? Damn, I just got here.

Posted by: Jerry at February 10, 2013 03:38 PM (4SKYj)


Story of my life.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at February 10, 2013 03:43 PM (bxiXv)

278 Well, so much for advice on first time hunting.

Posted by: Jerry at February 10, 2013 03:58 PM (4SKYj)

279
Advice to first time hunter:

Go hunting with someone who knows how to field dress whatever you're hunting.

Other than that, follow the safety rules and have a good time.

Posted by: W. Wilson Goode at February 10, 2013 04:28 PM (tOkJB)

280
I have a suggestion if you want to find ammo. Go to smaller gunstores, pawn shops, and military surplus stores that sell guns. I've found quite a few common calibers in foreign made ammo at pretty good prices in the last month. No .223 or 9mm, but I did find some others. All of the big box stores like Walmart and Cabela's get wiped clean first.

Posted by: JustLikeDavidHasselhoff at February 10, 2013 04:48 PM (71iUa)

281 All this advice about reloading and feeding extra mags worry me. How about hitting the target with the first shot? I hunt with a Ruger No1 single shot 30:06 and the the deer don't have a chance.

If you're going to need more than one shot then I would expect all ten rounds to be within six inches of a line between the belly button and the genitalia. I recommend hollow points for that.

Posted by: yooper at February 10, 2013 05:36 PM (0cBMc)

282 Well, they were delivering the L.A. Times so this goes under the category of "mixed emotions"

Posted by: Anchovy at February 10, 2013 05:42 PM (sv7CT)

283 They need those guys in Koreatown with their AR-15s.

You know, the ones that the idiot LAPD abandoned during the Rodney King fiasco

Posted by: TexasJew at February 10, 2013 07:45 PM (lD8ju)

284 For any morons in the Pacific Northwest, I'd recommend training with Oregon Firearms Academy in Brownsville (north of Eugene, south ofSalem). Clint Smith's Thunder Ranch in Lakeview is awesome, but classes fill up fast and the waiting list is usually long. OFA is a good option, and they're oriented towards the civilian concealed-carry market. And no, I don't get paid by them; I've attended several of their courses, and it's always been a great value for my money.

Posted by: PabloD at February 10, 2013 08:23 PM (BoclE)

285 @troyriser: One suggestion: Don't practice pressing the trigger every time you present the gun; you don't want to automatically drop the hammer in the event that you, for whatever reason, draw down on someone you realize you actually don't want to shoot. What looks like a lethal-threat target may, in that split second between drawing and firing,turn itself as a "no-shoot" target.

Posted by: PabloD at February 10, 2013 08:28 PM (BoclE)

286 Posted by: PabloD at February 10, 2013 08:28 PM (BoclE)

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be drawing my carry weapon for anything but an immediate deadly threat, but I understand your concern. Believe me, anything less than a sudden, unexpected attack, and I'd depend on my big mouth to talk my way out of it and/or my fast feet to run my way out of it, both of which have served me well in bad situations before.

No shame in a quick retreat for middle-aged civilians. We like to call them 'retrograde maneuvers', as in, 'Excuse me while I retrograde maneuver my way the hell outta here.'

Posted by: troyriser at February 10, 2013 08:38 PM (ptcFO)

287 Just skimming though and saw this,

george is right.
Retired LEO = civilian, current LEO = civilian. Fuck that "Only Ones" bullshit.


If LEOs are and always have been civilians.They should not / cannot be permitted any weapon and/or accessory and/or privilege Joe down the street is not allowed.

Unless you are in a police state.

Then call it what it is...

... BUT like fight club, when in police state you do not talk about police state.

Posted by: Obamao at February 10, 2013 09:17 PM (JtyGg)

288 Well 7.62 x 54r (80-90 bucks for a 440 tin) and some hunting ammo seem to be the only calibers not adversely affected by this insanity.

Posted by: Judge_Roy_bean at February 10, 2013 02:26 PM (cCxiu)

I love my Mosin- Nagant. I caught luck of the draw and got a fine shooter for $100. I bought a sight adjustment tool and zeroed it with no trouble, did a minor trigger job, and get good results at 100 yards on paper, which is all I ask of it. Affordable ammo availability is a big plus.

People say they're ugly rifles, but maybe it's a matter of taste. I've worked lemon oil into the wood of the stock every time I clean it after a day at the range, and brought out a depth and luster I wouldn't have thought possible. I think it's quite a pretty piece.

'If you can't kill it with a Mosin-Nagant, it can't be killed.'

Posted by: troyriser at February 10, 2013 11:04 PM (ptcFO)

289 What amazes me is that even .30-30 Win ammo has been swept clean.

It tells you that a lot of old leverguns out there are kept for self-defense and preparedness -- "cowboy assault weapons."

Posted by: P.M. at February 11, 2013 02:02 AM (bPsSR)

290 Day late and a dollar short!

I read the entire thread and took notes.

Thanks Andy and all yuse guys that responded re: practice drills!

Posted by: Dherak at February 11, 2013 08:56 PM (lkjWK)

291 [strike]sdfasf[/strike]

Posted by: Tokyo Rose at February 12, 2013 11:11 PM (dfS5g)

292 <strike>sdfasfd</strike>

Posted by: Tokyo Rose at February 12, 2013 11:12 PM (dfS5g)

293 sdgsdg

Posted by: Tokyo Rose at February 12, 2013 11:12 PM (dfS5g)






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