Michelle Rhee: My Break With Democrats on Vouchers

Michelle Rhee is an odd thing -- a Celebrity Civil Servant. She became famous upon appointment as superintendent of DC's school system, partly because she was a reformer and party, I suspect, because of biography (woman, Asian). She tried to reform DC's school bureaucracy. She failed. They said the system was unreformable, and they were right.

She's now breaking with Democrats on vouchers.

Here’s the question we Democrats need to ask ourselves: Are we beholden to the public school system at any cost, or are we beholden to the public school child at any cost? My loyalty and my duty will always be to the children.

Not everyone bought it. In fact, most of my Democrat friends remained adamantly opposed to vouchers. It was interesting, though: they were always opposed to the broad policy, but they could never reconcile their logic when thinking at the individual-kid level.

...

Most people in this country do not favor vouchers in education, because they don’t want public dollars going to private institutions or businesses. But the logic holds absolutely no water.

We have federal Pell grants that low-income students use all the time to attend private colleges. Pell grants aren’t limited to use at public universities. We have food stamps that low-income families redeem at nongovernment grocery stores. And let’s not forget about Medicare and Medicaid.

Think about it this way. Say your elderly mother had to be hospitalized for life-threatening cancer. The best doctor in the region is at Sacred Heart, a Catholic, private hospital. Could you ever imagine saying this? “Well, I don’t think our taxpayer dollars should subsidize this private institution that has religious roots, so we’re going to take her to County General, where she’ll get inferior care. ’Cause that’s just the right thing to do!”

No. You’d want to make sure that your tax dollars got your mom the best care. Period. Our approach should be no different for our children. Their lives are at stake when we’re talking about the quality of education they are receiving. The quality of care standard should certainly be no lower.

Republicans are losing politically right now because we're always on defense. The president calls upon his Palace Guard Media to push one after another tough vote on Republicans -- wedge issue votes, votes where the base of the party strongly feels one way but the majority (including those swing voters) feel another.

Wedge issues are a lose-lose proposition for whomever they're forced upon -- whichever way you vote, you're losing support.

Republicans are naturally disadvantaged in this struggle, as the president has the implicit power to set the national agenda, and of course his Palace Guard Media wants to help him out in his every tactical move.

But we have wedge issues we can force on Democrats, too. Such as vouchers. And we can start making them take some tough votes, too. House Republicans could make a stand, say, and announce they're not going to conduct any further business until a law permitting vouchers is enacted. Gin it up to a national policy conversation, insist that that conversation be had.

Democrats do not have a leg to stand on. They expressly believe that schools exist to serve the teachers unions, not the students. They are only able to continue this policy because no one talks about and no one forces the question in stark terms.

It's time to force it. The worst thing that can happen, politically, is that we advance our education policy from 1905 to the twenty-first century and liberate millions of children from the corrupt tyranny of incompetence that is our government school system.

And that's the worst thing that can happen. That's the downside. That millions of kids the Democrats have decided to write off as Collateral Damage -- consigning them to failure, crime, and minimum-wage jobs just to make sure its cadre of incompetent teachers never ever lose their jobs and the party can keep raking in that union money -- actually have a shot at the American Dream.

That's the worst that could happen.

Racist System: What would you say about a regime which, due to politics, chose to consign millions of black and Hispanic kids to failing schools every year and just shrugged off all that human misery they create-- the misery of failure, the misery of shattered dreams, the misery of perpetual status in the permanent underclass -- as a price well worth paying?

I'd call that pretty racist. Democrats apparently think poor black kids either don't matter or can't be educated, so it doesn't matter if we send them to an excellent school or we just warehouse them in failure factories until we turn them out to choose between careers in street crime or low-level food service.

That's a revolting system, and it should be revolted against.

So, What Could Republicans Actually Implement as a Law? One thought I had is that a law could be passed which created a Safe Harbor for schools which want to compete for vouchers. A National Safe-Harbor School Standards law (that sounds nice, even if it's bit of a hash-up).

Essentially the law would require schools -- if they wish to be certified; they don't have to do this, they just have to do this if they want Safe Harbor certification -- to disclose their financing and most importantly what tuition pays for. The critical thing here is that tuition cannot be used for any religious purpose; tuition money must go to education (and accounting must prove this).

The law would require other certifications like No Religious Discrimination and No Religious Instruction (at least not for any student whose education is paid for, in whole or in party, by vouchers).

Essentially it would track Supreme Court rulings and require signed certifications and external audits to establish these things. So that voucherization becomes bulletproof on these grounds, and bullshit arguments can't be used (dishonestly) to sandbag the movement.

Once certified by the standards of the Safe Harbor law, the school is declared presumptively in compliance with the separation of church and state. This would just be presumptive; I don't think you can take the question wholly out of the purview of the courts. But this sort of presumption and safe harbor is a common mechanism in law.

How state laws want to handle that is up to them. But the government could just create these standards and certifications (again, tracking Supreme Court guidelines) to facilitate voucherization of education. Then a state could pass a law making vouchers the baseline law, stating that vouchers can flow to any school which has been certified as a safe harbor school.

In addition, of course, any federal money for schools can be mandated to be in the form of vouchers which follow the student. That doesn't create any federalism concerns (or no new ones, anyway -- the federal government is already paying in this situation; might as well have the money go to a school the parent wants it to).

Oh And... Millions of downscale white kids are trapped in these failure factories too. So, you know. It's not just about minorities.

We're pretty much "educating" kids to be criminals, oxy addicts, and welfare cases.

Almost all pathologies begin with hopelessness. And you can't tell these kids, "Buck up, it's not hopeless," because in fact it is.

The system is designed to make them hopeless. Or, putting that less tendentiously, the system is definitely not concerned with giving them hope.

It's designed to keep fat-bottomed, low-IQ union hacks content.

The system is designed for their crucial years to be wasted by lazy morons until they either "graduate" or are simply encouraged to "self-deport." At which point they enter the workforce (if they even bother with that) with not only no education but without even learning the most important thing of all -- learning how to learn, and learning to like learning.

If you're 18 and you read on a second-grade level, what the hell career possibilities are open to you?


Posted by: Ace at 12:39 PM



Comments

1 The NEA is like a death panel for the child's mind.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 07, 2013 12:42 PM (XkWWK)

2 She's also married to the corrupt jackass mayor of Sacramento. Wish she would get her story straight.

Posted by: Geo. Soros at February 07, 2013 12:43 PM (NTBjC)

3 The average American Teacher can't spell "voucher".

Posted by: dfbaskwill at February 07, 2013 12:45 PM (ndlFj)

4 Ace the president of the United States' SecDef just admitted that Obama shrugged on Benghazi....

I respect your view on "wedges" but frankly fear the media can't be overcome.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 12:46 PM (LRFds)

5 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 12:46 PM (jmZ3x)

6 Could you ever imagine saying this? “Well, I don’t think our taxpayer
dollars should subsidize this private institution that has religious
roots, so we’re going to take her to County General, where she’ll get
inferior care. ’Cause that’s just the right thing to do!”


Hrm. I have no trouble imagining Kathleen Sebelius saying that at all.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at February 07, 2013 12:46 PM (/kI1Q)

7 It's time to get the government out of the business of education, and instead have them worry about students getting an education.

Posted by: Albert Shanker at February 07, 2013 12:46 PM (e8kgV)

8 Black women love their children too. Vouchers is a hill to climb, fight and die on.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 12:46 PM (l86i3)

9 I saw her on Hannity the other night...

He repeatedly brought up the Teachers Union.
She sidestepped the issue each time, and avoided saying anything against them .
So, she's still a Dem.

Posted by: wheatie at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (BZMZX)

10 The NEA is like a death panel for the child's mind.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 07, 2013 12:42 PM (XkWWK)


Threat winner.

Posted by: The Political Hat at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (Vk2pI)

11 The NEA is like a death panel for the child's mind.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 07, 2013 12:42 PM (XkWWK)


FIFY.


And now to bring out my slogan: DISBAND AND DISMANTLE ALL UNIONS!

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (4df7R)

12 Racist!!!

Posted by: Tilikum the Killer Assault Whale at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (uhftQ)

13 In other words it's time we demand a plan. For the children.

Posted by: gigg at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (41VCE)

14 two questions I ask at the start of the Teacher Conversation with the pro-teacher lot:

1) What do you propose to do about bad teachers - persons who cause educational harm to kids.

2) no, really - what do you propose we do about bad teachers - people who fuck up kids by depriving them of their opportunities.

-

Posted by: BumperStickerist at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (RuUvx)

15 The NEA is like a death panel for the child's mind.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 07, 2013 12:42 PM (XkWWK)

Threatd winner.

Posted by: The Political Hat at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (Vk2pI)


Fixed.

Posted by: The Political Hat at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (Vk2pI)

16 I mentioned this on the THC thread- apparently the PTA for the school my son attends is sending out emails inviting parents to join a "School Rights (whatever the f*ck that means) Rally" sometime soon in Austin.

I don't have the details because she refuses to forward the invitation to me.

Probably because I would volunteer not only to go, but to speak.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (jmZ3x)

17 This is basically the Dem playbook to keep the teacher's union happy.


If a lot of students start attending private on-union schools the existing public school will be merged and some of them closed.

Posted by: Vic at February 07, 2013 12:48 PM (53z96)

18 Ace, you sound as if you believe the GOP would use a wedge issue where conservatives win to harm their democrat BFFs. You don't actually believe they'd do such a thing, do you?

Posted by: mugiwara at February 07, 2013 12:48 PM (519ns)

19 "They are only able to continue this policy because no one talks about and no one forces the question in stark terms.


It's time to force it."



Let me know when you find Republicans who can effectively force anything with the media instead of getting dragged around by their hair in interviews.

Posted by: George Gobel at February 07, 2013 12:48 PM (4c71i)

20 The NEA is like a death panel for the child's mind. Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 07, 2013 12:42 PM (XkWWK) Threat winner.
Posted by: The Political Hat


We take your threats seriously. That's a drone strike.

Posted by: NEA at February 07, 2013 12:48 PM (BrQrN)

21 7
It's time to get the government out of the business of education, and
instead have them worry about students getting an education.


Posted by: Albert Shanker at February 07, 2013 12:46 PM (e8kgV)

Sure.Not likely with the teachers unions stranglehold on Education.Here in my neck of the woods a lot of charter schools have sprung up and most of them are a little better.

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at February 07, 2013 12:48 PM (9+ccr)

22 Never
Educate
Anybody

Posted by: Dennis Van Roekel at February 07, 2013 12:49 PM (e8kgV)

23 We all know the biggest rat hole is Head Start..followed by affirmative action...

Posted by: Clemenza at February 07, 2013 12:49 PM (Q8Pu5)

24 My kids have never seen the inside of a public school. I'm doin my part.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 12:49 PM (l86i3)

25 The Edu-crats can't stand that someone other than they might have the power to influence children and indoctrinate (or not), those children.

The publik edukashun establishment's credo is "All Your Children Are Belong To Us"

http://politicalhat.com/?p=1298

Posted by: The Political Hat at February 07, 2013 12:49 PM (Vk2pI)

26 As I've been saying, we should offer our own free stuff.Why should the Dems be the only one to bribe their constituents.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 12:49 PM (gmeXX)

27 I think this has been the secret to Scott Walker's success.

He went after the teacher's unions. Public Sector Unions which end up gaming both sides of the bargaining table in the debate for tax payer's money.

Going after private sector unions looks like it has been more hazardous.

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 12:50 PM (r2PLg)

28 20 Posted by: NEA at February 07, 2013 12:48 PM (BrQrN)

Come and get me; I have a Mossad Death Ray Iron Dome.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 07, 2013 12:50 PM (XkWWK)

29 The tax coffers are being used to set up pensions that cannot be borne through the hiring of union employed civil servants to take dues to transfer to the communists to secure power to keep squeezing...

education, regulatory agencies, you name it the donks own it.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 12:50 PM (LRFds)

30 But we have wedge issues we can force on Democrats, too.

Not without an alternative to the MFM. "Should the President be expected to defend embassy personnel?" would be a perfect wedge issue. Muslim Brotherhood, 2nd Amendment, there are many.

Posted by: t-bird at February 07, 2013 12:50 PM (FcR7P)

31 I read that the other day and really liked it. Unfortunately she misses the point where we're not sending money to "religious and private organizations," we would be spending the same money on the child that we were going to spend anyway.

This isn't new spending, it's redirecting current spending. Instead of money going to the schools, it goes to the children. Well, it "follows" the children.

There's a good chance vouchers will pass in some form this year in TX. I really hope they do.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 12:51 PM (jmZ3x)

32 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (jmZ3x)


I went to one PTA meeting at the local school here that my daughter attended. I sat through 2 hours of discussion for various money raising projects that the parents were supposed to volunteer for.


Finally I raised my hand and asked when we were going to discuss school policy and courses. I was told those subject were not up for discussion at the PTA meetings, only fund raising.


I replied that I already paid a shit-ton of property taxes for that and left.

Posted by: Vic at February 07, 2013 12:51 PM (53z96)

33 waiting for superman is a heart wrenching movie....

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at February 07, 2013 12:51 PM (GVxQo)

34 Derp.

Posted by: NEA at February 07, 2013 12:51 PM (Vk2pI)

35
all public employees should be forced to send their kids to public school

except my daughter of cource

Posted by: navycopjoe at February 07, 2013 12:51 PM (TKtCC)

36 Republicans are losing because they cater to kooks and bigots. If they catered to sensible center-right people, they would not be in this bad shape.

Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 12:51 PM (wzp46)

37 Giuliani mentioned this a couple of times-- just a couple-- in the 2008 primaries. He called it the great civil rights battle of the 21at century.


He should have kept at it IMO, because he's right. And it breaks unions.

Posted by: Truman North at February 07, 2013 12:51 PM (LvqG1)

38 26 SH,

because it is untheical and inefficient...that said if the National GOP leadership has decided to embrace amnesty our only hope is to use wedges in the Donk suicide caucus and outfreeshit them as fellow Chicago Way Patronage slingers....

Try to peel off Private unions, and possibly Hispanics.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 12:52 PM (LRFds)

39 one of the bigger 2012 failures is the faiulure to mention things like Waiting For Superman during the campaign. The wedge issue of public sector union thugs vs the kids is a big one in our favor. So, of course, we kept it hush hush.

Posted by: joeindc44 is now more concerned about Dark Ages 2.0 than Great Depression 2.0 at February 07, 2013 12:52 PM (QxSug)

40 @R 30 t-bird
Many republicans support the muslim brotherhood.

Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 12:52 PM (wzp46)

41 I got nuthin'

Posted by: Jones in CO at February 07, 2013 12:53 PM (8sCoq)

42 During the first 9-11 rally in D.C., there were parents from D.C. whose children went to private schools via the voucher system, and here was the first black president, taking from them, their hope of their children going to school in a safe environment and getting a good education. These people had tears in their eyes. It was Boehner (guess as House Speaker you have some rule over D.C.) that was able to keep vouchers alive for those already in use. But Sleazy Preeezy didn't want new vouchers to be available.

Posted by: Deli LLama at February 07, 2013 12:53 PM (lGu1O)

43 Many republicans support the muslim brotherhood.
Posted by: Be Real
***

They are more open minded and less bigotted than the dems.

Posted by: Tilikum the Killer Assault Whale at February 07, 2013 12:53 PM (uhftQ)

44 Oh look, the sock has followed us!

Banhammer (wzp46)

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 07, 2013 12:53 PM (4df7R)

45 Republicans are losing because they cater to kooks and bigots. If they catered to sensible center-right people, they would not be in this bad shape.
You're right. The Republicans should really stop trying to work with the Democrats and MFM.

Posted by: Dax at February 07, 2013 12:53 PM (gUYGX)

46 Be Real

Hector is that you

Posted by: JDP at February 07, 2013 12:53 PM (60GaT)

47 Finally I raised my hand and asked when we were going to discuss school
policy and courses. I was told those subject were not up for discussion
at the PTA meetings, only fund raising.


Yeah. I'm fairly sure the "rally" will be to lobby for more money for the schools. They'll talk about how it's "unfair" to expect them to work within current budget constraints, etc.

I would totally "Punkmouth" (thank you, ace) the rally.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 12:53 PM (jmZ3x)

48 Let me get this straight:
The democrats are against using public money to fund private institutions like parochial schools, but that's not an issue when it's public money to fund private institutions like abortion clinics.
WTF???

Posted by: MrObvious at February 07, 2013 12:53 PM (jgcLl)

49 Rubio had great ideas on moving away from the 4 year college scam and focus on trade schools and community colleges. That would be a good issue for republicans to use.

Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 12:54 PM (wzp46)

50 36- Yes totally. Eleventy... we need to do like the democrats and cater to sensible, middle of the road people by selecting centrist, intelligent moderates willing to ponder deep issues.

Like a Senator ponders a 12 year old vagina

TARD

Posted by: gigg at February 07, 2013 12:54 PM (41VCE)

51 God I hate democrats.


(wzp46)
-- shut up you childish dick.

Posted by: eleven at February 07, 2013 12:54 PM (KXm42)

52 At the risk of sounding statist, is there a way to declare Teaching a right to work profession nationwide?

Posted by: Invictus at February 07, 2013 12:54 PM (OQpzc)

53 @ 45 Dax
Republicans should treat the MFM as an enemy.

Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 12:54 PM (wzp46)

54 Republicans are losing because they cater to kooks and bigots.

It's not Republicans who want black children to be forced into attending underperforming, shitty public schools.

Why do you hate black children so much?

Posted by: Lurking Canuck at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (BrQrN)

55 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (jmZ3x)

WTF? Schools don't have rights. The people have rights and the schools exist at our pleasure.

It's that fucking simple.

My guess "union rights" rally.

Listen, I get that the right to free association does in fact mean that people have an inherent right to unionize. And I get that industrialists did some pretty awful things to unions (like beating them up.)
This doesn't give the government to the right to shortcut the business's rights of free association into hiring whoever the hell they want. (Or for that matter, I'm not even sure it should shortcut their rights to say "form a union and we'll fire you, because we don't want to pay union wages.")
There was overreach way back when, I hope it starts rolling back.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (wGOqj)

56 They are only able to continue this policy because no one talks about and no one forces the question in stark terms.

This is where we always fail. Our assumptions are that people are rational and logical and look at the evidence, when the experience of the last several years should be showing us that people are lazy, ignorant and fearful of difficult ideas.

The Dems distill the ideas down to nothing...and win.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (GsoHv)

57 Like a Senator ponders a 12 year old vagina

TARD
Posted by: gigg at February 07, 2013 12:54 PM (41VCE)

Is that what they call fucking now? Ponder?

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (l86i3)

58 Public schools are generally the largest employers in ANY community in the United States. And just about every person in those schools is a member of a teachers' union, or an seiu-type union for everybody else.

Add to that the numbers of those teachers and seiu employees who get to take "early retirement" starting around age 50, with public pensions equal to their salary, and fully paid solid gold health insurance.

That's the dirty little secret of the democrat party. The public schools are their lifeline to taxpayer money (extracted from the public through property taxes, which have no relation to your income or any relation to the value of your property). Property taxes never go down, and if you don't pay the government takes your property away.

And that is why the democrats are going to defend this hill and die on it, without the money from the public schools which gets funneled to democrats, they will be broke.

Posted by: Boots at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (oG66P)

59 Education is where I wish all these rich republicans would spend their money rather than on Karl Rove. There are a lot of great innovative ideas out there. They just need funding. But what we really need is tons of funding to reform a whole inner city school district. Its great to set up one small school to use as an example. But imagine if some billionarire came in and set up a reform system of 20 schools in the inner city of Baltimore.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (gmeXX)

60 Why do you hate black children so much?

"I won"

Posted by: eleven at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (KXm42)

61
What I hate is that Democrats get a free rein to accuse Republicans of being in the back pocket of X (Big Oil, Wall Street, Koch, etc.) They have hammered that message for decades.
Why don't the Republicans ever do the same thing and hammer the Democrats for how much they are beholden to the Unions?

Posted by: Eric at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (oWWqw)

62 why do i have a feeling "sensible center-right people" = "Paulite minarchist weirdos" here

perhaps i'm paranoid

Posted by: JDP at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (60GaT)

63 48 Let me get this straight:
The democrats are against using public money to fund private institutions like parochial schools, but that's not an issue when it's public money to fund private institutions like abortion clinics.
WTF???
Posted by: MrObvious at February 07, 2013 12:53 PM (jgcLl)

____________________

The last thing they want is the capitalist controls of market demands to bust up the monopoly they have on school systems and the future of their constituent's children.

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 12:56 PM (r2PLg)

64 54 LKurking Canuck,

It's not Republicans who enact urban gun control zones that make black on black violence so easy....

why do Democrats hate blacks?

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 12:56 PM (LRFds)

65 Wedge? Its more a chip shot but whatever floats your boat. FORE!

Posted by: Bigby's Donkey Punch at February 07, 2013 12:56 PM (3ZtZW)

66 I went to a Missouri Synod School for 8 years. Grades 1-4 in one room and grades 5-8 in the other room. You can not buy and education..

Posted by: Clemenza at February 07, 2013 12:56 PM (Q8Pu5)

67 According to Fishbowl DC, newly-installed CNN-chief Jeff Zucker has made or is contemplating a couple of smart moves. Apparently, John King has survived and just renewed his contract. That's the good news.

The great news is that the incorrigibly corrupt Candy Crowley might be headed for the door.

Posted by: Obama 2012 at February 07, 2013 12:56 PM (e8kgV)

68 The only way we will ever fix the schools is to remove the guarantee of "free" taxpayer funded schools from the State Constitutions and close every public school in the State, including colleges.


People who want an education will attend private schools with the "poor" being given vouchers for grades 1 - 6 and then if academically gifted further vouchers for 7 - 12. Those who are not "gifted" would be given vouchers to attend a trade school.


Those who are trouble makers would be kicked out, just like they did in the 50s when I went to school.

Posted by: Vic at February 07, 2013 12:56 PM (53z96)

69 on trade schools and community colleges. That would be a good issue for republicans to use.
Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 12:54 PM (wzp46)

Those schools also have a suction on the student loans thing. Those schools are a gold mine.

Posted by: Invictus at February 07, 2013 12:56 PM (OQpzc)

70 9I saw her on Hannity the other night...

He repeatedly brought up the Teachers Union.
She sidestepped the issue each time, and avoided saying anything against them .
So, she's still a Dem.
Posted by: wheatie at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (BZMZX)


It's still good she wrote about the school vouchers, but if we're to get the malignant tumors out of the pubic school system, they'll have to be sliced out, not coaxed out. She's not the surgeon.I'm not going to go full tilt ideological and think she's useless if she doesn't take a suicidal hardline on unions, NEA and vouchers all at once (not to say you think so.)

Posted by: Heralder at February 07, 2013 12:57 PM (+xmn4)

71 Actually, vouchers may be the thing that finally drive my brother (the school administrator) and I to physical violence.

He, like so many public school employees, hates the idea of vouchers. But he's planning on sending his own kids to a private school. Not just any private school, but some hoity-toity "concept" private school where at least half the kids' day is "Spanish immersion learning."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 12:57 PM (jmZ3x)

72 Anyone see the David Horowitz article over at Powerline, talking about how the GOP and conservatives need to take the offensive in order to win elections? The absolute fiasco of public education in our urban centers was example one of where the GOP could do this effectively.

Urban education and the oppression of poor minority kids by fat cat educrats should be the civil rights issue of our times. Every single obstinate teachers union boss needs to be relentlessly defined as the Bull Connor of our day, and their stooges on the picket lines as the good old boy deputies that stood with old Bull to block the school house doors.

Right fucking now.

Posted by: Fred at February 07, 2013 12:57 PM (Os+6p)

73 TARD
Posted by: gigg at February 07, 2013 12:54 PM (41VCE)

Is that what they call fucking now? Ponder?

The good senator refers to sticker books, crayons and lollipops as "love tickets".

Posted by: gigg at February 07, 2013 12:57 PM (41VCE)

74 The great news is that the incorrigibly corrupt Candy Crowley might be headed for the door.
Posted by: Obama 2012 at February 07, 2013 12:56 PM (e8kgV)


Zucker aint payin a fat chick to do anything but clean his office.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 12:57 PM (l86i3)

75 Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 12:52 PM (wzp46)

Welcome to our new troll.

Please read the FAQ on trolling AOSHQ, lest you beclown yourself even more than you have and get bounced.

We like toying with you folks, but only if you are amusing. When you demonstrate too much of your innate stupidity you get ignored or bounced.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 07, 2013 12:57 PM (GsoHv)

76 Sven, I find nothing unethical or inefficient about vouchers. I'm just talking about how we promote vouchers. We (and I mean the politicians) should be going to the poorer areas and basically tell them I want to give you a $10,000 check for you to use at the school of your choice for your kid. Make it personal.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 12:57 PM (gmeXX)

77 58 Public schools are generally the largest employers in ANY community in the United States. And just about every person in those schools is a member of a teachers' union, or an seiu-type union for everybody else.

Add to that the numbers of those teachers and seiu employees who get to take "early retirement" starting around age 50, with public pensions equal to their salary, and fully paid solid gold health insurance.

That's the dirty little secret of the democrat party. The public schools are their lifeline to taxpayer money (extracted from the public through property taxes, which have no relation to your income or any relation to the value of your property). Property taxes never go down, and if you don't pay the government takes your property away.

And that is why the democrats are going to defend this hill and die on it, without the money from the public schools which gets funneled to democrats, they will be broke.

Posted by: Boots at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (oG66P)

________________

And those public sector teacher unions extract union dues by force from their members and fund Democrat politician's campaigns.

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 12:58 PM (r2PLg)

78 I do like the way she re-frames and contextualizes their stupid argument.

"Wahhhhh! I don't want tax dollars going to private schools, especially religious ones!!!"

Yeah? Okay. All food stamp recipients are required to purchase their food at government owned stores, none of which stock soda or junk food.

Happy?

Medicare and Medicaid recipients can't see private doctors. They must be hired by the government.

And, of course, you MUST be for ending support for Planned Parenthood, right? It's a private entity.


Posted by: Warden at February 07, 2013 12:58 PM (0DlnM)

79 Saw a crybaby from Illinois NEA on the news last night.
Whining that the government underfunded his pension (and will soon be going broke) and it's unfair to punish him for that mistake. (The implication being "keep funding our pension.)

I turned to my wife and said "wait a second isn't this mostly the union's fault for agreeing to a contract that didn't include proper pension funding? Why should I give a fuck? They made their gamble it didn't pay off. Tough shit."

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 12:58 PM (wGOqj)

80 68 abolish public education, put poor in scare quotes.

superduper

Posted by: JDP at February 07, 2013 12:58 PM (60GaT)

81 Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 12:51 PM (wzp46)


Do you wipe after every post?

Posted by: Burn the Witch at February 07, 2013 12:58 PM (4c71i)

82 68,
What happened with the trade school initiative that Mike Rowe was promoting? I saw his open letters to both candidates during the election, but haven't heard anything since.

Posted by: Dax at February 07, 2013 12:58 PM (gUYGX)

83 The problem with some of the new Charter Schools is they get a set amount of the "per student" cost at the public school. So that is creating another monster. Where is the savings if another school getting per student cost that is incredibly high, due to decades of union contracts. Meanwhile, private Christian schools don't qualify for vouchers or as a Charter school.

Posted by: Deli LLama at February 07, 2013 12:59 PM (lGu1O)

84

When Michelle Rhee says she is doing it for the children, she is being honest.

She's a strong woman.

Remember, when Christie wanted her so bad for NJ, but she turned him down? Yeah, I do.

I argued forever a year or so back about Rhee, and how she truly was focused on the kids, not the schools, unions, teachers, or politicians attached to them. She had a great relationship with the mayor at the time. He gave her carte blanche as I recall.

The guy I was arguing with could not understand the kid-centric concept. For the life of him, he couldn't understand taking the child's perspective. He pulled too far back every single time trying to talk in larger terms.

Individual vs GroupThink

Tough hurdle to jump.

**off to an appt

Posted by: beach at February 07, 2013 12:59 PM (LpQbZ)

85 School Vouchers.

And the other policy we should push is a break-up of the big banks using the following basic regulation:

1) No bank above 100 billion (or use a percentage of GDP equivalent.) Research shows this is the topping out of economies of scales. Banks larger than this, like Citibank do gain from TBTF subsidy, but that comes at a large taxpayer cost in the end.

2) Some simple leverage rule.

3) Performance bonds for top execs at banks based on their size. For example, if Vikram Pandit wants to run a 2 trillion dollar bank, he needs to personally put up $2 billion dollars. If the bank fails, he loses that money. (This rule by itself could even obviate rules 1 & 2, but let's keep those as well.)

Not only is this good policy and simpler than the unproven and untested Dodd-Frank "living will" I suspect it would be wildly popular and help alleviate the "GOP = Wall Street" trope.

Posted by: sexypig at February 07, 2013 12:59 PM (dZQh7)

86 82 68,
What happened with the trade school initiative that Mike Rowe was promoting? I saw his open letters to both candidates during the election, but haven't heard anything since.
Posted by: Dax at February 07, 2013 12:58 PM (gUYGX)


That shit costs money. It also makes people productive and independant. Next Question.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 12:59 PM (l86i3)

87 Yes, the vouchers issue is a good wedge. So is the trillion-dollar annual deficit. So is the (illegal) lack of a budget for 4 years. So is the radical gay marriage & abortion agenda. So is Benghazi. Problem is, the worshipers are the media, so none of these stories are going anywhere.

What may be going somewhere is reality. Recession is coming. FICA 2% holiday is over. Obamacare will bring sticker shock and punitive action to millions. More troubles in Europe. Stocks will tumble. Gas prices will rise.

You can't sugarcoat suck.

Posted by: Cricket at February 07, 2013 12:59 PM (DrC22)

88 I'd say that last section is pretty racist, ace.

/lib

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at February 07, 2013 01:00 PM (6zgse)

89 Hey I was a liberal until I started going to Israel and working as a Resident in the inner city. Those 2 things turned me into a right wing reactionary PDQ

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 07, 2013 01:00 PM (9Bj8R)

90 @ 72 Fred
Going after the failures of urban schools would give republcans an opening with minorities.

Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 01:01 PM (wzp46)

91 But why does anybody need a good education?

Posted by: Piers Morgan, TV tough guy at February 07, 2013 01:01 PM (YXmuI)

92 Not just any private school, but some hoity-toity "concept" private
school where at least half the kids' day is "Spanish immersion
learning."


Actually, this isn't an incredibly awful idea. Like it or not being bilingual in something isn't a bad idea, and the best time to learn a language is when you're very very young.

That being said, being forced into Spanish sucks, but I'd guess that's because "we have to be nice to the immigrants" or something. (I'd frankly prefer Chinese, maybe Russian, both will be pretty useful. Tertiary choices are Japanese or Korean.)

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 01:01 PM (wGOqj)

93 82 - he's doing the mikeroweWORKS Foundation to support the trades. lookitupyo

Posted by: Bigby's Donkey Punch at February 07, 2013 01:02 PM (3ZtZW)

94 #79 How much of the underfunding is because the union bosses gave so much of that pension money to the democrats?

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2013 01:02 PM (GoIUi)

95 omg--

McCaskill you can't draw down on the Marine force and then at the same time demand a new task for them.

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:02 PM (r2PLg)

96 The argument against vouchers is one of those things that leaves me speechless.
It is so devoid of logic that there's nowhere to begin a rebuttal.

That's why it works, I guess.

Posted by: jwb7605 (Let It Burn) at February 07, 2013 01:02 PM (Qxe/p)

97 As Rand said yesterday, they're all in favor of choice until you're born, or if you face a pregnancy you find "difficult to deal with"; otherwise, there's no room for choice.

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at February 07, 2013 01:02 PM (BvTwT)

98 McCaskill you can't draw down on the Marine force and then at the same time demand a new task for them.
Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:02 PM (r2PLg)


Of course you can! Can't you?

[/clueless leftard]

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 07, 2013 01:02 PM (4df7R)

99 Like it or not being bilingual in something isn't a bad idea, and the best time to learn a language is when you're very very young.

----

I would agree with that. What is a problem is Spanish only education which is not bilingual, its just public education all in Spanish. I'm not sure if that exists, but I suspect it does.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:03 PM (gmeXX)

100 Her voice is killer.

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:03 PM (r2PLg)

101 I also recommend everyone listen to this CATO podcast on Waiting for Superman.

http://tinyurl.com/a6y5feo

Sweden is a great example of what we should be doing, and some of the "innovation" is really basic.

Posted by: sexypig at February 07, 2013 01:03 PM (dZQh7)

102 How much of the underfunding is because the union bosses gave so much of that pension money to the democrats?


Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2013 01:02 PM (GoIUi)

I dunno, I live in Missouri, I just laugh at Illinois news (surprisingly I also buy guns there. Southern Illinois is a great place to pick up used weapons!)
But IIRC, they traded "future pension funding" (as opposed to pre-funding which is normal, even FERS is prefunded) for "salary hikes." Figuring the gravey train would last for ever.
Reality is a bitch.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 01:04 PM (wGOqj)

103 We need some commercials.... a couple of different versions...
1. Football Team... players bein idiots... cut to a Coach (WHITE of course) trying to tell his team that EVERYONE there is a winner.... cut to newpaper headline "X Team on lossing Streak for X Years..."... cut to a player saying "dam... wish I could be traded..."
Cut to... chart with Public school Test scores for the Last 30 years....

2. Board room... Chart with the same stats as student test scores being dissussed as if it was a failing business.... cut to... guy asking... isn't it time to FIRE someone??? cut to Student test score charts....

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 07, 2013 01:04 PM (lZBBB)

104 Sweden is a great example of what we should be doing, and some of the "innovation" is really basic.
Posted by: sexypig at February 07, 2013 01:03 PM (dZQh7)


here's one innovation: stop trying to be mommy and daddy. Teach the kids reading, writing and 'rithmetic.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 07, 2013 01:04 PM (4df7R)

105 That being said, being forced into Spanish sucks,
but I'd guess that's because "we have to be nice to the immigrants" or
something. (I'd frankly prefer Chinese, maybe Russian, both will be
pretty useful. Tertiary choices are Japanese or Korean.)


Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 01:01 PM (wGOqj)

You hit a nerve here. My Grandson goes to a Spanish immersion public school. It's supposed to be 50/50 Hispanic to other race . It's not. I had to sit through their annual Spring production for 2 hours and every single "act" was Spanish only.I kind of expected at least one part to be in English, you know a Cohen Yankee Doodle Dandy or something but no.

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at February 07, 2013 01:04 PM (9+ccr)

106 >>>Republicans are losing politically right now because we're always on defense.

Someguy pretty much said the same thing and he became, inexplicably, a joke around here.

#punchingup

Posted by: soothsayer communicates only in hashfags at February 07, 2013 01:05 PM (KwX0v)

107 Michelle Rhee needs to STFU and embrace Big Daddy Obama.

Posted by: Chris Rock at February 07, 2013 01:05 PM (MhA4j)

108 76 SH,

SH our rent seeking groups get bad service from us compared to the donk delivery mechanism, I am not speaking about just vouchers in fact vouchers will never be allowed to happen precisely BECAUSE they change the client control of money flow from the Free Shit Army MuleSkinner branch in DC to the citizens of this nation rich, poor, or in between....

the GOP refuses to punish the donk powerbase to peel off some of them or at least shut them the fuck up.

The GOP should threaten legislation altering IP to get the RIAA to back the fuck off....

etc etc etc

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:05 PM (LRFds)

109 Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 01:01 PM (wGOqj)

I didn't say it was bad. I said it was "hoity-toity." I don't even have a problem with hoity-toity. My problem is with hypocrisy- Private school for me, but not for thee.

As for Spanish- we live in Texas. There are parts of the state where the "official language" might as well be Spanish. It's a no-brainer, here. If you're going to learn a second language, learn Spanish.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:05 PM (jmZ3x)

110 I think Romney pushed the job creator line too much, and should have had a wall street reform plan and pushed vouchers. Bread and butter middle class stuff. I think too many GOPers don't really get the whole entrepreneur thing.

Posted by: sexypig at February 07, 2013 01:05 PM (dZQh7)

111 90@ 72 Fred
Going after the failures of urban schools would give republcans an opening with minorities.
Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 01:01 PM (wzp46)


Exactly, when you're not kept stupid and supplicant by the progressives at such an early age, you might start thinking for yourself and vote according to that, not handouts.

Posted by: Heralder at February 07, 2013 01:05 PM (+xmn4)

112 Vouchers only solve half the problem. In areas where vouchers are most needed, there are tons of shitty parents. Giving them a voucher won't change a thing as they won't do anything with it.

Here's an example I came across while working with at the Baltimore City school district:

A pilot program to encourage attendance had volunteers/staff go and meet the parents of chronically absent students (defined as 9 or more unexcused absences).

One of the contacts was for a 9 year old boy. The staff member went to the door and found the child was living with his father, who was recently released from jail for murder. I have no idea where the mother is in all of this, but if the dad had cusody them imagine that the mother was in an even worse scenario.

First the dad insisted that the child was going to school (he wasn't). Then we find out that the child needs to be on meds to control behavior issues; while off his meds the kid stabbed and killed a cat. It just so happens that the father has other people in the house living with them, and they happen to be stealing the kids meds.

Vouchers don't fix the above situation. But the kid still needs to be education. So what do you do with him? and when I tell you, with no exaggeration what so ever, that there are thousands of kids in similar situations in Baltimore alone, what do you do?

Posted by: taylork at February 07, 2013 01:05 PM (ppNDn)

113 This is where I break with both parties. Although vouchers would be the course to take on the road to elimination of "free" education.

Posted by: Whatev at February 07, 2013 01:06 PM (A7Wh1)

114 Oh, here's the dim bulb who got elected over Murdock. No one asked HIM about abortion or rape, even though he's a Catholic.

Bah.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2013 01:06 PM (GoIUi)

115 The high school graduation rate in Detroit is 26%.

THE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION RATE IN DETROIT IS 26%!!

Posted by: JohnW at February 07, 2013 01:06 PM (P6JLM)

116 >>>>Rubio had great ideas on moving away from the 4 year college scam and focus on trade schools and community colleges. That would be a good issue for republicans to use.


No, it wouldn't. Grad rates for community colleges are terrible. In Baltimore, under 5% of students that go to a community college will graduate within 6 years.

Posted by: taylork at February 07, 2013 01:06 PM (ppNDn)

117 here's one innovation: stop trying to be mommy and daddy. Teach the kids reading, writing and 'rithmetic


---

MWR - like most things in life, deciding what reforms should be made are easy, the hard part is the doing it.

Schools should be schools first, second and last. All you really need is 4 walls and a chalkboard and a good teacher. You don't even necessarily need updated books. The only thing that has changed is current history and we shouldn't be spending a lot of time on it anyway (and some science).

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:08 PM (gmeXX)

118 Don't be so negative, Ace. We aren't losing on all of these wedge issues, as illustrated by the number of swing voters who consistently poll with Republicans against Obama. Obama uses wedge issue to rev up his base. For contributions, votes, political muscle, whatever. He's keeping his side engaged.

Posted by: JustLikeDavidHasselhoff at February 07, 2013 01:08 PM (wWZWw)

119 >>>consigning them to failure, crime, and minimum-wage jobs just to make
sure its cadre of incompetent teachers never ever lose their jobs and
the party can keep raking in that union money -- actually have a shot at
the American Dream.

It's much more insidious than that. By churning out failed lives in their factory of fail, in large numbers, they create government dependents that translates into votes for a fully parental government. That's right by engineering FAIL into poor neighborhoods for multiple generations, they create the voter base needed to support their totalitarianism that takes the shape of government structured society. Just more eggs for the communist omelet. A few million ruined lives, and unrealized potential is a small cost to pay for the socialist elite ruled utopia they promise.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Offering Moobats Gasoline and Matches at February 07, 2013 01:08 PM (0q2P7)

120 113 Whatev,

What the hell....I must have missed where the fucking suckass retarded corrupt evil fucking NEA prisons are 'free"?

If the NEA is working for free I must have missed the reason they are bitching about their pensions....?

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:08 PM (LRFds)

121 The gang mentality promotes the POTUS = Ruler of America theme.

No appreciation for the US Constitutional Governance due to ignorance. Don't promote the stooopid 'ignorance/bliss' as the US revisionist motto.

Posted by: panzernashorn at February 07, 2013 01:09 PM (MhA4j)

122 As I argued in my comment at the Conversation on this exact subject, the right can capture this issue if it's done right.

Don't argue the simple truth that vouchers would benefit kids far more than the public school system. Go into the conversation stating it as fact in the past tense. It's already established.

Next, use the issue to establish that the democrats have been blocking vouchers because of a backroom deal with the teacher's union for money and votes. Come out explicitly saying that inner-city (BLACK) kids have been screwed for generations, will always be poor and illerate because of this terrible, racist bargain between the power hungry democratsand the teacher's unions.

Hammer home how it isn't African American's fault, how bad they've done in society. How could they possibly advance when the game was rigged against them? Now we've exposed the criminals - the democrats and the unions.

We even leave an out for everyday low-information left wing voters. Although we call for those in power on the left and those in the democrat party machine to spend the rest of their lives apologizing to those whose lives have been stolen and harmed, we simply ask those who voted democrat without the malice their leader had to change their ways.

Don't waste time arguing the issue. Spend the time destroying the opposition using the issue.

Posted by: jwest at February 07, 2013 01:09 PM (ZDsRL)

123 116
>>>>Rubio had great ideas on moving away from the 4 year
college scam and focus on trade schools and community colleges. That
would be a good issue for republicans to use.


I like it. Not everyone belongs in college. Trade schools are a good alternative. Look at all the unemployed College Grads out there... too bad they didn't learn a useful skill other than womnz studies etc...

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at February 07, 2013 01:09 PM (9+ccr)

124 KIPP helps kids with crappy parents. Long school days and weekend classes mean less time for trouble making

Posted by: Lauren at February 07, 2013 01:09 PM (wsGWu)

125 Vouchers don't fix the above situation. But the kid still needs to be education. So what do you do with him? and when I tell you, with no exaggeration what so ever, that there are thousands of kids in similar situations in Baltimore alone, what do you do?

Posted by: taylork at February 07, 2013 01:05 PM (ppNDn)


Drone strike comes to mind ...
The problem is that those of us in "flyover country" can't even imagine that. Those in Baltimore can't imagine how we think.

That, fundamentally, is a problem.

Posted by: jwb7605 (Let It Burn) at February 07, 2013 01:09 PM (Qxe/p)

126 Vouchers don't fix the above situation. But the kid still needs to be
education. So what do you do with him? and when I tell you, with no
exaggeration what so ever, that there are thousands of kids in similar
situations in Baltimore alone, what do you do?


Of course vouchers won't fix that. They're not designed to fix that. Nothing you can do with education is going to fix that.

The world isn't perfect, nothing will fix everything. But for every one of those kids, there are probably tens, if not hundreds or thousands, of others whose parents do care, and would love to get their kids into a private school, but can't afford to.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:09 PM (jmZ3x)

127 I saw Michelle Rhee on TV the other day and she sounded extremely bright with a shit load of common sense. A good Republican in the making

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 07, 2013 01:09 PM (9Bj8R)

128 No, it wouldn't. Grad rates for community colleges are terrible. In Baltimore, under 5% of students that go to a community college will graduate within 6 years.
Posted by: taylork at February 07, 2013 01:06 PM (ppNDn)


Part of the reason for such abysmal grad rates across the board is the remediation a lot of these kids need when they get to college. Math, English, everything -- they're so behind they can't function in the college environment until they've been re-taught the basics.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 07, 2013 01:09 PM (4df7R)

129 Racist System: What would you say about a regime which, due to politics, chose to consign millions of black and Hispanic kids to failing schools every year and just shrugged off all that human misery they create-- the misery of failure, the misery of shattered dreams, the misery of perpetual status in the permanent underclass -- as a price well worth paying?
I'd call that pretty racist. Democrats apparently think poor black kids either don't matter or can't be educated, so it doesn't matter if we send them to an excellent school or we just warehouse them in failure factories until we turn them out to choose between careers in street crime or low-level food service.
That's a revolting system, and it should be revolted against.
I worked as an attorney representing disabled students against the DCPS system, leaving that employment shortly after Rhee was hired. I had a lot of respect for her and what she attempted to do in D.C., who's public school system is utterly corrupt and broken (believe me, I experienced it firsthand).
You want to talk about racism? I know you're making a broader argument about vouchers, but I felt a lot of sympathy for Rhee, in particular, because of the racism she experienced in D.C. Let's just say that the city's black community (who's children are, by and large, the ones attending the public schools in the city) weren't too keen on the idea of an Asian woman making decisions regarding the education of their kids. That actually played a big factor in sinking the re-election campaign of Adrian Fenty, the mayor of D.C. at the time, who hired Rhee (Fenty lost to then-councilman Vincent Gray, himself a thoroughly corrupt politician who won the election in part due to enflaming racial sentiments).

Posted by: Vyceroy at February 07, 2013 01:10 PM (7igc6)

130 Bumper sticker on Memendez' limo reads: My girlfriend is an honor roll student at Jefferson Elementary School

Posted by: Truman North at February 07, 2013 01:10 PM (LvqG1)

131 >>>Vouchers only solve half the problem

We have a lot of problems with kids fighting the poor kids. They start in real quick with calling them welfare shits and then go on to beating them up. That's in Greece, same district where those kids were harassing the bus custodian. Winning little shits, every one of them.

Posted by: Bigby's Donkey Punch at February 07, 2013 01:10 PM (3ZtZW)

132 Vouchers don't fix the above situation. But the kid still needs to be education. So what do you do with him? and when I tell you, with no exaggeration what so ever, that there are thousands of kids in similar situations in Baltimore alone, what do you do?

--

Those are tough issues no doubt. What I do know is you don't improve the situation of absentee parents by taking away further parental responsibilities from them. Force parents to actually be parents, and you'll be surprised that some of them will actually step up to the plate. But you can't save everyone. And this is a shame and really sad.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:11 PM (gmeXX)

133 Be blunt. Tell parents that public schools are raping their children one way or the other. Tell them Stalin and Hitler would be proud of the education children are getting in the US public school system.

If that doesn't work, tell them that the public school system wants to kill their children.

The only thing that'll work with many parents is blatant threats. It's the nature of this country now.

Posted by: Soona at February 07, 2013 01:11 PM (1i3nI)

134 She's probably a one-issue Republican, i.e. a Democrat on everything else. Like Chris Christie.

Posted by: OregonMuse at February 07, 2013 01:12 PM (9GaPd)

135
How about we become the GOP that isn't the Just the Tip of Social Engineering party?

oh wait, that won't work 'cuz we need to be like the Democrats in order to win election


Posted by: soothsayer communicates only in hashfags at February 07, 2013 01:12 PM (1WM2H)

136 THE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION RATE IN DETROIT IS 26%!!

"The chair is against the door. John has a long mustache"

Posted by: Bigby's Donkey Punch at February 07, 2013 01:12 PM (3ZtZW)

137 If the Republicans were smart enough to run with this voucher idea, they better not mention that the School the obama girls go to used to have vouchers for the underprivileged until those two got there... That would be racccccist...

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at February 07, 2013 01:12 PM (9+ccr)

138
It's time to smash the media palace guard and stand on principle. It's time to push back. The democrats only care about the teachers unions.
the democrats do not care they are failing our kids.

Posted by: Fresh at February 07, 2013 01:12 PM (O7ksG)

139 Why the Safe Harbor? When you spend your Medicare dollars at a Catholic hospital, the nun still drops by for a quick prayer - even if your a heathen.

Posted by: Jean at February 07, 2013 01:12 PM (DcbLC)

140 In Baltimore, under 5% of students that go to a community college will graduate within 6 years.

So? I'm pretty sure that's "With a 4 year degree" and the point of such schools (both Trade Schools and Jr (Community) Colleges) is to give specific career training. They're called Associates Degrees and normally take 2 years, not 4.

You're trying to gauge the effectiveness of one program by looking at results of a completely different program.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:13 PM (jmZ3x)

141 116 yes, since the trade schools and community colleges already exist and are thriving. Rubio would pat himself on the back for reinventing them?

As for grad % rates, consider well that many students attend simply for a single course requirement to improve their work status. For instance, to teach a specialty at a cc with a Masters degree (not "education" degree) requires taking a single course to remind cc teachers to be considerate of various working situations, students not being full time studies, but work.

Posted by: panzernashorn at February 07, 2013 01:13 PM (MhA4j)

142 You gotta understand, liberal government WANTS sub-standard education: stupid kids get crappy jobs (or join the ranks of the unemployed), remain disenfranchised - and vote DEM 90% of the time for the next 50 years.

Big gov't must continually create new victims in which to enslave. Liberalism 101.

Posted by: louisbille at February 07, 2013 01:13 PM (9QZej)

143 I wished I had Tivo'd it now, but Frontline had a special just recently about her called "The Education of Michelle Rhee." It had inflammatory sound bites from her about gasp, firing bad principals and teachers; something that to us in commonsense but to the educational elite is vapour inducing. Sounded intriguing.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/education-of-michelle-rhee/

Good Morning Ace! Glad to see you up and about. Do you have crusty, watery eyes too?

Posted by: LizLem at February 07, 2013 01:13 PM (8wqqE)

144 134 Oregon Muse,

quite...

and there it is...so we conservatives get told "go to the back of the bus" and the moderates run the GOP leftward....while over on the Donk Party Yacht the moderates get told "shut the fuck up" and Barry gets to run as far left as he feels like....

yeah way to fortify the base fellas.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:13 PM (LRFds)

145
yay, social engineering!

if we can't beat em, join em

#educationcangohorsefuck

Posted by: soothsayer communicates only in hashfags at February 07, 2013 01:14 PM (1WM2H)

146 I dunno, I used to be all impressed with Rhee. But she's just another school superintendent gypsy, with short teaching experience, who goes into admin, makes a big splash then leverages the publicity to go on to something better. Easy to quit because unions and parents are giving you shit. Plus she's got that Malkinish-minority thing going for her.

But vouchers do at least let the better students get away from the dregs.

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:14 PM (GdalM)

147 "I saw her on Hannity the other night... He repeatedly brought up the Teachers Union. She sidestepped the issue each time, and avoided saying anything against them . So, she's still a Dem.
Posted by: wheatie at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (BZMZX) "
************
I give Rhee a little bit of slack on that one, because, as I said, I worked for a time litigating AGAINST DCPS. When she was hired, some of the union members there sh*t themselves, because Rhee actually attempted to fire some of them.
She ultimately didn't succeed, but she wasn't so pro-union as you may think she is. At least, she wasn't in practice.

Posted by: Vyceroy at February 07, 2013 01:14 PM (7igc6)

148 Another big downside risk is that we start having madrassah type schools funded with more tax dollars

Posted by: john at February 07, 2013 01:15 PM (8C+9j)

149 @ 116 taylork
The 4 year model leaves people broke and is outdated. I know many people who acquired a skill in Community College and have jobs now.

Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 01:15 PM (wzp46)

150 Education for all but a select few must remain in the strict hands of government, lest incorrect thinking, racism, and thought crimes infiltrate the minds of those whose fate it will be to be cared for from cradle to grave. That way all will be comfortable in their role. Like Julia, the example of the wise intentions of our beloved Barack Obama.

Those who will be the shepherds will be taught in other ways according to other knowledge.

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at February 07, 2013 01:15 PM (jCQ+I)

151 145 sothsayer,

Pretty much.

Sooth I have been doing serious soul searching about what we have to do to compete with the Mules on politics in a post-amnesty epoch, the republic cannot survive it I'm pretty sure.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:15 PM (LRFds)

152 Republicans are losing because they cater to kooks and bigots. If they catered to sensible center-right people, they would not be in this bad shape.


Good Afternoon, Mr. Rove.

Posted by: MikeBloomberg at February 07, 2013 01:15 PM (7ObY1)

153 The reason the teachers hate vouchers is because the money truly does follow the child. It's all about headcount at the school level. If there's less kids attending public school, then there's less money for that school's overpaid teachers and bloated administrative staff.

The hell of it is: there would still be an ample population of parents who can't be bothered to give a fuck about their child's education. This cohort of shitbag children, having been instilled with their parent's attitude toward life, would still be plenty large enough to supply sufficient blood for the fucking ticks in the NEA to live off.

Let the ones who give a shit about their children escape the fucking gladiator academies and actually get a shot at improving their lot.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at February 07, 2013 01:15 PM (CJjw5)

154 I saw Michelle Rhee on TV the other day and she sounded extremely bright with a shit load of common sense. A good Republican in the making
Posted by: Nevergiveup


Remember that Inspector General that was fired because he found the mayor of Sacramento was using federal money as a slush fund? She married to him.

She also played flack catcher after he was accused of molesting a student.

I don't think we need her on our 'team.'

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 07, 2013 01:16 PM (NTBjC)

155 >>>yay, social engineering!


idiot.

Posted by: ace at February 07, 2013 01:16 PM (LCRYB)

156
We were supposed to be the party that opposed government interference.

#stopmeddling

Posted by: soothsayer communicates only in hashfags at February 07, 2013 01:16 PM (KwX0v)

157
As I always say whenever her name is brought up here, which seems to be a lot because she's like some "magic" school reformer or something FOLLOW THE MONEY particularly with her. It's about THE MONEY not the children no matter what good face she puts on her little song and dance.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at February 07, 2013 01:16 PM (RZ8pf)

158 134She's probably a one-issue Republican, i.e. a Democrat on everything else. Like Chris Christie.
Posted by: OregonMuse at February 07, 2013 01:12 PM (9GaPd)


Doesn't matter, does it? I'm not sure the argument is she a Republican because she disgreed with Democrats on vouchers. She's useful if she can convince her peers.

Further, she doesn't need to be a Republican to actually do some good here, as long as she breaks from some important Democrat stations.

Posted by: Heralder at February 07, 2013 01:16 PM (+xmn4)

159 So? I'm pretty sure that's "With a 4 year degree" and the point of such schools (both Trade Schools and Jr (Community) Colleges) is to give specific career training. They're called Associates Degrees and normally take 2 years, not 4.You're trying to gauge the effectiveness of one program by looking at results of a completely different program.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:13 PM (jmZ3x)


Associates degrees are generally two year programs, but they often take longer than two years to complete since the student is often working and can only attend part-time. Three to six years is the average.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 07, 2013 01:16 PM (4df7R)

160 There was some mention of me running for judge last night (which, no, never ever ever). There was actually a push by friends of mine to try to get me to run for school board when I lived in PA. The rationale? Since I had no children in the system, I didn't have to worry about retaliation. I could simply shoot my mouth off at will. I was seriously considering it and then I moved.


I do feel sorry for parents whose kids are stuck in a bad school, public or private. If you bitch, you do have to consider the retaliation against your kid. My old firm did some work for kids who were being screwed over by the local school districts and I became the person who spoke to the representatives for the schools. Why? Because each and every one of them demanded to know the name of my children. The implications were clear.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at February 07, 2013 01:16 PM (VtjlW)

161 The hell of it is: there would still be an ample population of parents who can't be bothered to give a fuck about their child's education. This cohort of shitbag children, having been instilled with their parent's attitude toward life, would still be plenty large enough to supply sufficient blood for the fucking ticks in the NEA to live off.

_______________

*shit.*

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:16 PM (r2PLg)

162 Teachers unions are a red herring. Anything but contemplate the actual students they have to work with, right? They deserve combat pay. (and they get it in DC)

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:16 PM (GdalM)

163
Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 07, 2013 01:09 PM (9Bj8R)
As the dems overrreach, because they can't help it, hopefully more and more potential republicans in the making wake up. She sounds very lefty on other things, but I think she's beginning to realizing those fences on the lefty plantation are to keep her penned in, not keep the evil rethuglicans out. One can hope.

Posted by: LizLem at February 07, 2013 01:17 PM (8wqqE)

164 136 THE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION RATE IN DETROIT IS 26%!!

It's lower in D.C. and Baltimore. On top of that, "graduation" is just a word. What that means in inner city schools is that someone met the bare minimum time-in-attendence requirements (with a lot of fudging).

If you actually sat every "graduate" down from these school systems and had them read a Dick and Jane book or try to make change for a dollar, you would have a much better idea of the quality of those diplomas.

Posted by: jwest at February 07, 2013 01:17 PM (ZDsRL)

165 Uh, the teachers deserve combat pay..

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:17 PM (GdalM)

166 147 VyceRoy,

Yeah? If she has a problem with them and has "broken with the donks" she needs to punch them in the fucking mouth. otherwise she is just a self-promoter trying to get GOP backing like Nanny Bloomberg and Crisco Christy. My son and my hoped for grandkids deserve an education geared towards success not indoctrinating him into freeshit army.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:17 PM (LRFds)

167 @ 123 Hello, it's me Donna
That is my point. We need to get away of this college for all mentality.

Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 01:17 PM (wzp46)

168 Funny how it's always the *inner city * schools ain't it.

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (GdalM)

169 ssociates degrees are generally two year programs, but they often take
longer than two years to complete since the student is often working and
can only attend part-time. Three to six years is the average.


Well, yes. But the point is I'm pretty sure the statistic quoted was about going on to complete a 4 year degree.

And how do you take 6 years to get an associates degree? Take one class a semester?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (jmZ3x)

170 AllenG - I'm hoping Texas passes some sort of voucher type program. We'll see.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (gmeXX)

171 Gladiator academies.



EOJ good

Posted by: eleven at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (KXm42)

172 155 Ace,

Pretty much. It's like the people who bray about "heehaw will end 'free education'..."

Uh education ain't free sports fans...

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (LRFds)

173 As for grad % rates, consider well that many students attend simply for a single course requirement to improve their work status.
Posted by: panzernashorn at February 07, 2013 01:13 PM (MhA4j)


Exactly on point.
That's how I started out as "electronics technician", moved up to "jr. hardware design engineer" to "project leader" to "software engineer" to "sr. software engineer".

I have absolutely no problems with the concept.
When I finally was forced to retire, I was making $80K/year.
Started my career at $12K.

The problem was that at age 63, when the economy totally tanked, I didn't have the 4-year degree "required" by all companies.

Double edged sword.

Posted by: jwb7605 (Let It Burn) at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (Qxe/p)

174 "The President of the United States is, you know, our boss. But also, you know, the president and the first lady are kind of like the mom and the dad of the country. And when your dad says something, you listen. [And] when you don't, it usually bites you in the [expletive] later on. So I'm here to support the president."

Posted by: Obama 2012 at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (e8kgV)

175 I keep watching the Senate Hearings with panetta and dempsy and I can't believe the bullshit and finger pointing. None of them make any sense and yet no one is gonna be blamed by the dems and the MSM. fuckin bastards one and all

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 07, 2013 01:19 PM (9Bj8R)

176 Let the ones who give a shit about their children escape the fucking gladiator academies and actually get a shot at improving their lot.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at February 07, 2013 01:15 PM (CJjw5)

Yep. 52% of all education dollars in NC make it to the classroom. The rest is Academic back benchers, Bureaucrats, and monuments to their stupidity. In NC our billion dollar boondoggle is called the Pink Palace.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:19 PM (l86i3)

177 148
Another big downside risk is that we start having madrassah type schools funded with more tax dollars

We have a winner!

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:19 PM (GdalM)

178 Let the ones who give a shit about their children escape the fucking
gladiator academies and actually get a shot at improving their lot.



We, who are about to fail, salute you!


ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!?!?!

Posted by: EC at February 07, 2013 01:19 PM (GQ8sn)

179 >>>Republicans are losing because they cater to kooks and bigots. If they
catered to sensible center-right people, they would not be in this bad
shape.

Concerned commenter number 3,843,217,347 that feels all of our problems would be solved if we were just more progressive; Citing unsubstantiated bigotry and vague references to extremism.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Offering Moobats Gasoline and Matches at February 07, 2013 01:20 PM (0q2P7)

180 One big problem with any voucher scheme are the Blaine amendments in many state constitutions. James G. Blaine, a 19th-century Republican who hated Catholics, led a movement to embed anti-parochial-school clauses in state constitutions, and succeeded in all but 11 states. For example, article X, paragraph 3, of the Illinois state constitution reads:

"Neither the General Assembly nor
any county, city, town, township, school district, or other public
corporation, shall ever make any appropriation or pay from any public
fund whatever, anything in aid of any church or sectarian purpose,
or to help support or sustain any school, academy, seminary, college,
university, or other literary or scientific institution, controlled
by any church or sectarian denomination whatever; nor shall any grant
or donation of land, money, or other personal property ever be made
by the State, or any such public corporation, to any church, or for
any sectarian purpose."

Until these are repealed, any sort of voucher movement that involves parochial schools - which are far and away the most extensive non-public school system - will be hobbled.



Posted by: Brown Line at February 07, 2013 01:20 PM (VrNoa)

181 You gotta understand, liberal government WANTS sub-standard education: stupid kids get crappy jobs (or join the ranks of the unemployed), remain disenfranchised - and vote DEM 90% of the time for the next 50 years.

_______________

*shit*

Gawd where is my chocolate .

Also did anyone listen to Dempsey..

Evaded the Crete base question but we couldn't really use them because they were organized under the NATO command structure.

Yeah!

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:20 PM (r2PLg)

182 Life is a lot easier for the Dem elites, maybe I should adopt the same mentality. After all, my kids will have the opportunity to either go to a very good suburban public school or to a very good private school. So what should I care.

Man it feels good to care.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:21 PM (gmeXX)

183 >>>So? I'm pretty sure that's "With a 4 year degree" and the point of such schools (both Trade Schools and Jr (Community) Colleges) is to give specific career training. They're called Associates Degrees and normally take 2 years, not 4.

You're trying to gauge the effectiveness of one program by looking at results of a completely different program.


Nope. The study took all that into account. As somebody else mentioned above, and they are correct, kids come into the community college woefully behind in basic math and reading. they have to do some remediation and they drop out long before they can even take credit baring classes.

Sorry, but at least in Baltimore (and I would gues most other urban areas) community college don't have good results.

Posted by: taylork at February 07, 2013 01:21 PM (ppNDn)

184 Another big downside risk is that we start having madrassah type schools funded with more tax dollars

To be honest, this is the one thing - perhaps the only thing -that gives me pause about school vouchers.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 07, 2013 01:21 PM (DrWcr)

185 The President of the United States is, you know, our boss.

I think you mean our lack-wit employee, but do carry on.

Posted by: t-bird at February 07, 2013 01:22 PM (FcR7P)

186 Teachers unions are a red herring. Anything but contemplate the actual students they have to work with, right?

Yep. That's it. It's the fault of the students that the teachers can't (won't) teach. Yep.

Why, if those teachers had the *good* kids, their kids would always get As.

I'm not going to disagree that disruptive kids are, well, disruptive. And I'm not going to disagree that there are certain kids who should just be kicked out of school (IDK about other States, but here in TX they can under the right circumstances). But to claim the teachers aren't responsible for their own work product?

Pull the other one. It has bells on.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:22 PM (jmZ3x)

187 Wow that Senator Nelson is a speedy talker--he should slow down.

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:22 PM (r2PLg)

188
<i>"House Republicans could make a stand, say, and announce they're not going to conduct any further business until a law permitting vouchers is enacted."</i>

You are exactly right, but that would presuppose that the Republican leadership had any interest in siezing the initiative or any clue in how to accomplish anything. The GOP is suffering from a severe lack of talent and vision, which is why the statist are mopping the floor with them.
The single greatest thing they could do to halt the production of yet another generation of liberal zombies would be to break the stranglehold of the Marxist NEA on the educational system.

Posted by: Beef at February 07, 2013 01:22 PM (mb1uj)

189 177 Jeanne of the North,

as opposed to the simple marxist indoctrination schools disguised as 'local schools" with curricula designed and vetted by Ayers and Company...?

Here's an idea let the camps of the future civil war educate their own kids and may the best culture win.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:22 PM (LRFds)

190 And how do you take 6 years to get an associates degree? Take one class a semester?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (jmZ3x)


Very possibly. Or take a semester off here and there to focus on something else, or because you don't have the money.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 07, 2013 01:23 PM (4df7R)

191
OK, I will be more clear about the money, she is in it for the money, when she was trying to "fix" the DC schools the way she was trying to "fix" them was channel the kids to the schools that were part of her husband's business, thereby getting money for it.


I am so sick of arguing the same point about this woman every single time. Oh wait, it's not an argument no one listens. OK, I'm sick of talking to myself about this woman every time.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at February 07, 2013 01:23 PM (RZ8pf)

192 Teachers unions are a red herring. Anything but contemplate the actual students they have to work with, right? They deserve combat pay. (and they get it in DC)

Posted by: Jeanne of the North


You are conflating teachers with their union. They aren't the same.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 07, 2013 01:23 PM (NTBjC)

193 72
Urban education and the oppression of poor minority kids by fat cat educrats should be the civil rights issue of our times.

Oh, puke...knock yourself out, but they've been doing backflips for decades trying to teach the unteachable, and the student quality is only getting worse. Without corporal punishment and expulsion there's not that much they can do.

Bring back the paddle!

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:23 PM (GdalM)

194 Is the President our boss or our parents? I'm confused.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (gmeXX)

195
I like it. Not everyone belongs in college. Trade schools are a good alternative. Look at all the unemployed College Grads out there... too bad they didn't learn a useful skill other than womnz studies etc...

FWIW, I completed a 2-yr course in Machine Shop in High School, which (along with a 4-yr Toolmakers Apprenticeship) allowed me to support my family for a long time, right up until It Was Decided that we would move to a "service-based" economy.

IMO, there would also need to be some emphasis at the Federal level to encourage the growth of a manufacturing sector. We still have the world's largest economy: I wonder what the UE rate would be if we made our own goods.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (+z4pE)

196 What's that brown stuff on Sen. Nelson's nose?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (9Bj8R)

197 You, go ParanoidGirl! I'm listening!

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (GdalM)

198 Funny, I was just thinking of 40 years ago standing at the bus stop as an 8 year old watching some kids teasing a crippled kid in crutches. Then he displayed his "cool move" by raising a crutch and pretending it was a machine gun, with sound effects. WE thought it was cool anyway.

I guess in todays liberal utopia that would warrant an immediate suspension, possible charges, and a national "dialogue".

Posted by: Whatev at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (A7Wh1)

199 Is the President our boss or our parents? I'm confused.
Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (gmeXX)

One should never mix business and family.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (DrWcr)

200 Connie Mack lost to this guy?

Did they debate?

WTH

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (r2PLg)

201 And how do you take 6 years to get an associates degree? Take one class a semester?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (jmZ3x)



Yup. For a lot of people that's all that their company will reimburse so they take classes as they can get the tuition reimbursement.


Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (VtjlW)

202 Again, we have learned that on the day of the attack, the JEF received a 30 minute breifing from Dempsey and Panetta at 5 pm. !5-20 minutes of that breifing was about Benghazi. He learned the consulate was on fire and the Ambassador was missing. He never asked what his military options were. And he never asked for an update. Not once. He went to bed, and then Vegas.

Panetta and Dempsey never requested assetts be sent to Benghazi until after the attack. Panetta and Dempsey never sent anyone to secure the consulate for evidence until 21 days later because the FBI did not ask them. They were aware of the attacks leading up to the Sept 11 attack, yet resources in the region were not on alert. On Sept 11.

Posted by: thunderb at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (Dnbau)

203 I guess in todays liberal utopia that would warrant an immediate suspension, possible charges, and a national "dialogue".
Posted by: Whatev at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (A7Wh1)

Drone strike.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (DrWcr)

204 193 Jeanne of the North,

Hey Nanook of the North Big Educations buddy big Lawyer called "no!"

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (LRFds)

205 PT, but my own senatr (no Rubio,the other one) gives me the creeps.

Watching him on C-Span and he looks like a ghoul.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (piMMO)

206 sven I don't care if the students can read and write at grade level!

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (GdalM)

207 Yeah? Okay. All food stamp recipients are required to purchase their food at government owned stores, none of which stock soda or junk food.

Happy?


Yes, I'm sure liberals would be--I expect it pisses them off that food vouchers go to private entities.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at the Joint Subcommittee meeting on the 50 yard line at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (QF8uk)

208 >>>>Well, yes. But the point is I'm pretty sure the statistic quoted was about going on to complete a 4 year degree.

And how do you take 6 years to get an associates degree? Take one class a semester?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (jmZ3x)



AllenG. You can look at the study yourself, here.
http://baltimore-berc.org/pdfs/CollegeEnrollmentFullReport.pdf

I worked on the update, and the results aren't any better.

Posted by: taylork at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (ppNDn)

209 The problem was that at age 63...

Stop right there and you've got it. I'm in the same boat, but even I would rather hire a kid.

Posted by: t-bird at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (FcR7P)

210 196 What's that brown stuff on Sen. Nelson's nose?
Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (9Bj8R)

___________

He snorts brown sugar--got it from Panetta.

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (r2PLg)

211 The thing about this job, Pres Obama tells House Dems,
"the longer you’re in it - the more humble you get."

Posted by: Pres**ent Barack “Unexpectedly Humble” Obama at February 07, 2013 01:26 PM (e8kgV)

212 Posted by: Obama 2012: at February 07, 2013 01:18 PM (e8kgV)

I wish your minions would start consolidating their messages and figure out exactly what you are supposed to be to the American people, because it's very confusing. Are you our prophet, saviour, first time lover, father, husband, boss, brother? It makes you sounds like an incestual fundamentalist group leader.

Posted by: LizLem at February 07, 2013 01:26 PM (8wqqE)

213 Disband the NEA (I know. Impossible). Unless that happens, we're going to be just talking a lot of bullshit. Once the NEA is dispatched, the question of how our children are educated can be given back to the state and local governments. Otherwise, we're just pissing against a hurricane.

Posted by: Soona at February 07, 2013 01:26 PM (1i3nI)

214 Watching him on C-Span and he looks like a ghoul.
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (piMMO)

Bill Nelson? Yeah, he looks a little...odd.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 07, 2013 01:26 PM (DrWcr)

215 147 "I saw her on Hannity the other night... He repeatedly brought up the Teachers Union. She sidestepped the issue each time, and avoided saying anything against them . So, she's still a Dem.
Posted by: wheatie at February 07, 2013 12:47 PM (BZMZX) "
************

I give Rhee a little bit of slack on that one, because, as I said, I worked for a time litigating AGAINST DCPS. When she was hired, some of the union members there sh*t themselves, because Rhee actually attempted to fire some of them.
She ultimately didn't succeed, but she wasn't so pro-union as you may think she is. At least, she wasn't in practice.

Posted by: Vyceroy at February 07, 2013 01:14 PM (7igc6)

------------

While it's good that she thinks the the 'bad' teachers should be fired...
She recoiled from the topic of the'indoctrination of our kids' when Hannity brought it up.

Maybe she is afraid to weigh in on that...if she is, in fact, against it.
But she didn't seem to see a problem with it.

Posted by: wheatie at February 07, 2013 01:27 PM (BZMZX)

216 Bill Nelson? Yeah, he looks a little...odd.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 07, 2013 01:26 PM (DrWcr)

Yeah good thing he was elected instead of Mack... Dodged a bullet there....

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at February 07, 2013 01:27 PM (9+ccr)

217 Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at February 07, 2013 01:25 PM (VtjlW)


Plus after so long you get BONED by taxes.

I took 9 hours one year, 9 hours. (mind you I worked for a university at the time.)
I had to pay taxes state, local, federal and FICA, so roughly 40% withholding on $3000 of that.

So my "free" tuition ended up socking me over $1200 in additional taxes. Because I took a lot of classes. I manged to pull some federal filing Jujitsu to get some of that back, but the FICA was gone forever.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 01:27 PM (wGOqj)

218
Bill Nelson? Yeah, he looks a little...odd.
Posted by: Insomniac at February 07, 2013 01:26 PM (DrWcr)

Apparently the aliens are getting lazy about making decent fitting skin suits.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:27 PM (l86i3)

219 And how do you take 6 years to get an associates degree? Take one class a semester?

I met a kid who had gone for eleven years before finding something he liked. Then he got a job offer before getting his degree.

Posted by: t-bird at February 07, 2013 01:27 PM (FcR7P)

220 IMO, there would also need to be some emphasis at the Federal level to encourage the growth of a manufacturing sector. We still have the world's largest economy: I wonder what the UE rate would be if we made our own goods.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (+z4pE)


There actually is. I work in career and tech ed, and there's a big push to try and get more manufacturing and related programs into high school. Welding, machining, manufacturing tech, you name it.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 07, 2013 01:28 PM (4df7R)

221 Someone needs to ask Brennan about Benghazi today.

Posted by: thunderb at February 07, 2013 01:28 PM (Dnbau)

222 192 You are conflating teachers with their union. They aren't the same.

Not really, but whatever. I used to blame the teachers, too, and I think now the unions are there trying to protect them from all the flak from students, parents AND taxpayers. But really the problem is with the students. Yeah I know there are some stupid teachers, but there's no way to get the best and the brightest to teach. They just don't last, they hate it. Because of the students.


Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:28 PM (GdalM)

223 One should never mix business and family.
Posted by: Insomniac at February 07, 2013 01:24 PM (DrWcr)


Give him a living, but never let him know the family business

Posted by: Vito C. at February 07, 2013 01:28 PM (9Bj8R)

224 Very possibly. Or take a semester off here and there to focus on something else, or because you don't have the money.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at February 07, 2013 01:23 PM (4df7R)


Once you get an associate's degree: if you start a family, I would add "or the time" following the term "money" if you actually want to be an involved parent.
One of my options was to finish with night classes, but I would have had to kept my (8-12 hour) day job.
I elected to teach my kids how to fish, camp, garden, and other unimportant things.
I'd make the same mistakes again.

Posted by: jwb7605 (Let It Burn) at February 07, 2013 01:28 PM (Qxe/p)

225 206 jeanne of the North,

Right..."at grade" level has been reduced in many cases so loser teachers don't have to face the music of their inability to mold the students into performing....

I'm in logistics, if I fuck up and can't make the run on time I don't really get to blame the engine, the loader, the weather, the alludium Q36 Space Modulator.....

the make the analogy work better I guess i ought to be making those excuses to the guy in georgia I delivered the run to Bangor Maine to....

The NEA and their clients the "noble slefless never wrong or inferior Teachers" are busy pushing flawed curriculum and political indoctrination down the kids' throats.

Sympathy for their plight?

All out.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:29 PM (LRFds)

226 Apparently the aliens are getting lazy about making decent fitting skin suits.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:27 PM (l86i3)

__________________

And their really system to his voice box was running slow today.

There must be chaff in the atmosphere.

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:29 PM (r2PLg)

227 @ 220 MWR, Proud Tea
Welding is in big demand due to the shale boom.

Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 01:29 PM (wzp46)

228 *relay" system

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:29 PM (r2PLg)

229 NO! NOT VOUCHERS! A FEDERAL INCOME TAX DEDUCTION FOR PRIVATE SCHOOL TUITION! THIS IS THE WAY TO GO!

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:30 PM (s+f26)

230 59 ---"Education is where I wish all these rich republicans would spend their money rather than on Karl Rove. ... what we really need is tons of funding to reform a whole inner city school district. Its great to set up one small school to use as an example. But imagine if some billionarire came in and set up a reform system of 20 schools in the inner city of Baltimore. "

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 12:55 PM (gmeXX)

If I had BIG bucks, Bill Gates type of bucks, this is what I would do.
If you want to destroy the government system, you need to build up a stronger private system first. Once you have a certain percentage of people attending private schools, you've got some political power. And you've got a whole lot of people who are sick and tired of paying taxes into a system that they don't use.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at February 07, 2013 01:30 PM (C8mVl)

231 With vouchers, the marxist liberals will use SCOTUS to rule the use of vouchers for religious schools as unconstitutional.

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:31 PM (s+f26)

232 SoCal is nuts today. Some ex-cop, Obama fan killed two cops in SoCal.

Then, in two separate cases, cops in a suburb of LA shot people in two different vehicles matching the ex-cop's.

Remind me again why only cops should have weapons?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 07, 2013 01:32 PM (NTBjC)

233 Yeah? Okay. All food stamp recipients are required to purchase their food at government owned stores, none of which stock soda or junk food

***

Milk $10 a gallon

Bread $8 a loaf

Eggs $6 a dozen.

That is, unless they place the stores under the DOD, in which case, you would need to add a zero or two to the price.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 07, 2013 01:32 PM (piMMO)

234 22 Jeanne of the North,

Ah those poor poor teachers...hey I know I guess I am the one who spent 30 years trying to undo the most successful education system on the planet and act as a defacto shill for colleges instead of focusing on turning out productive citizens with an eye on acquiring the life skills needed to earn their way through life....?

You can teach a kid anything if you can weed out and concentrate the unreachable fuck ups in a war wing class and discipline the kids into performance.

Stop pushing "new math" and start teaching rote mechanic math I'll be more amenable to perusing your angst on "bad material."

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:32 PM (LRFds)

235 >>>If you're 18 and you read on a second-grade level, what the hell career possibilities are open to you?

I have some employment opportunities "on my staff," but 18 is a getting a little long in the tooth.

Posted by: Sen. Menendez at February 07, 2013 01:32 PM (CB+1e)

236 If I had BIG bucks, Bill Gates type of bucks, this is what I would do

___________________

Bill Gates didn't he spent big bucks on a tech college in-

*
*
*

India.

Go Team!

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:32 PM (r2PLg)

237 IMO, there would also need to be some emphasis at the Federal level to encourage the growth of a manufacturing sector.

You'd have to sequester the IRS, DOE, EPA, &c. It's hard to sell the government complex on the idea of less government complex.

Posted by: t-bird at February 07, 2013 01:32 PM (FcR7P)

238 J of the North - I just blame the whole system. Our education problem can't simply be fixed by reforming only the education part, but it is a start and a strong start. At the end of the day, it probably all goes back to the failure of the Great Society which was simply an extension of the New Deal, which is just an extension of the progressive movement which thinks in general that the masses are just too stupid to do anything so a paternal government is needed.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:32 PM (gmeXX)

239 So now we want to pivot to education? I wholeheartedly agree with the issue and no one is further right on it than me. But didn't we just rip the JEF for moving to guns and immigration?

And how's that economy coming along?

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at February 07, 2013 01:33 PM (Z8jS9)

240 Unless it's changed and I didn't notice, in Alabama, teachers get both Civil Service protection and Union protection. Pick one.

Posted by: toby928© at February 07, 2013 01:33 PM (QupBk)

241 225...loser teachers don't have to face the music of their inability to mold the students into performing....

Yeah, sven.
Isn't that what the teachers in Chicago were on strike against?
Teacher 'accountability'?

They seem to go batshit over the idea of it.

Posted by: wheatie at February 07, 2013 01:33 PM (BZMZX)

242 231 With vouchers, the marxist liberals will use SCOTUS to rule the use of vouchers for religious schools as unconstitutional.

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:31 PM (s+f26)


I agree.
Given the rationale of Obamacare, though, I think Al From Bay Shore in #229 might be on to something.

Posted by: jwb7605 (Let It Burn) at February 07, 2013 01:34 PM (Qxe/p)

243 A federal income tax deduction for private school tuition will slowly erode government control of schooling and curriculum. One of the reasons why the stupid liberal ideas have influence is because of government control of the curriculums in education. I am a public school teacher and I see how this bias is conveyed from an early age.

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:34 PM (s+f26)

244 Actually DoD use to sell surplus milk-- something about dairy subsidies-- and the milk was green.

Go Team!

Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:34 PM (r2PLg)

245 >>>Then, in two separate cases, cops in a suburb of LA shot people in two different vehicles matching the ex-cop's.

Sheesh. Talking about a poor marketing tie-in for the Nissan Titan.

Posted by: wooga at February 07, 2013 01:34 PM (CB+1e)

246 But she didn't seem to see a problem with it.



Posted by: wheatie at February 07, 2013 01:27 PM (BZMZX)

She just wants them to somewhat smarter conformist Democrats!

Posted by: Hrothgar - Discouraged Former Republican Voter at February 07, 2013 01:35 PM (Cnqmv)

247 For the those that think the voucher program is still too liberal.

1. You are doing the same thing as arguing for Abortion to be illegal in the case of rape and incest when in fact the real argument is whether it should be legal on demand. Every time you open your mouth you give credence to the liberal argument that this is just the first step in dismantling public education.

2. You are in a very small minority that believes that education should not have public funding. Even John Locke, (yes that one) believed in public education. There is no philosophical theory on how a largely uneducated populous maintains its freedom. Jefferson (yes that one) also lobbied for publicly funded education. All of this not because you were entitled to an education, but because a free society needed to educate you for its own good.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Offering Moobats Gasoline and Matches at February 07, 2013 01:35 PM (0q2P7)

248 Plus after so long you get BONED by taxes.

I took 9 hours one year, 9 hours. (mind you I worked for a university at the time.)
I had to pay taxes state, local, federal and FICA, so roughly 40% withholding on $3000 of that.

So my "free" tuition ended up socking me over $1200 in additional taxes. Because I took a lot of classes. I manged to pull some federal filing Jujitsu to get some of that back, but the FICA was gone forever.
Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 01:27 PM (wGOqj)



Gah, I'd completely forgotten about the tax problems as well.

I loathe this everyone must go to college push. No. Nope. Not at all. The underlying presumption that wordsmithing is the best and only measure of intelligence is, how to put this, complete bullshit. We have created a system where kids throw away years of their lives chasing pointless credentials and don't actually learn anything.

That's better than learning how to weld and making money in ND how exactly?

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at February 07, 2013 01:35 PM (VtjlW)

249 The problem is that teachers and the teachers' union justt aren't humble like ..

The thing about this job, Pres Obama tells House Dems,

“the longer you’re in it – the more humble you get.”

Posted by: Pres**ent Barack “Unexpectedly Humble” Obama at February 07, 2013 01:35 PM (e8kgV)

250 Kids who fail out of or are expelled from school should be sent to workhouses to spend their days trudging on treadmills. Treadmills that generate clean, green electricity. At the end of the semester, they get the chance to go back to school. Fuck up in class, and it's back to the treadmill.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at February 07, 2013 01:35 PM (CJjw5)

251
The teacher unions in CA spend millions on donk ads,

Posted by: TudorsDrool;RicardiansRule! at February 07, 2013 01:36 PM (lSaJq)

252 @ 220 MWR, Proud TeaWelding is in big demand due to the shale boom.
Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 01:29 PM (wzp46)


-------------------------------------------


Specialty welding for high-pressure systems pays the best. If I hadn't been drinking so much, I probably would have taken up the offer of an apprenticeship in that art. But, alas........

Posted by: Soona at February 07, 2013 01:36 PM (1i3nI)

253 A federal income tax deduction for private school tuition will slowly erode government control of schooling and curriculum

---

I'm for it. Anything that benefits me personally, I'm typically in favor. But I'm selfish like that. Probably doesn't help the poor, but they don't seem to intent on bettering their life judging by the fact that they keep voting for Democrats.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:36 PM (gmeXX)

254 That's better than learning how to weld and making money in ND how exactly?
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at February 07, 2013 01:35 PM (VtjlW)

The richest, happiest man I know is a plumber.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:36 PM (l86i3)

255 241 wheatie,

Indeed. The stupid assholes who don't really give three fucks about education as a joy in itself want to 'change things for the better" while fucking shit up.

I hate them, I would never try to indoctrinate a history student it is my role to listen to their attempts to use analogy to the modern era not to inflict it.

Audit your kid or grandkids class and enjoy the "modern theory" example.

Devolve schools back to basics and offer enrichment courses secondarily.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:36 PM (LRFds)

256 If you're 18 and you read on a second-grade level, what the hell career possibilities are open to you?


Congress?

Posted by: rickb223 at February 07, 2013 01:37 PM (GFM2b)

257 Ace, in your system public money is not allowed to go towards any religious education or classes?
Have you bought into the belief that there is a separation of church and state in The Constitution as put forth by the progs?
That's not how the founders looked at it.
For a good history on this and other things you could check out a documentary titled "Monumental" with Kirk Cameron.
Even do one of your 10,000 word reviews on it.
Be a better use of time than spending it on one more Hollywierd piece of liberal blather.

Posted by: teej at February 07, 2013 01:38 PM (YEo73)

258 Specialty welding for high-pressure systems pays the best. If I hadn't been drinking so much, I probably would have taken up the offer of an apprenticeship in that art. But, alas........
Posted by: Soona at February 07, 2013 01:36 PM (1i3nI)


I welded steam pipe at USX in gary. I worked 2 days a week, saturday and sunday, 16 hours a day. I made $1100 a week. this was in 1990.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:38 PM (l86i3)

259 Push for a federal income tax deducation for private school tuition! Right now, there is a public school monopoly and, like all monopolies, there is a failure in the education consumer's access to information. Ask any parent what kind of curriculum their child's school uses and they won't be able to tell you. I am in a school where "service learning" and this environmentalist bullshit is being pushed and people have no idea what is happening. And then there are the social studies books.....

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:38 PM (s+f26)

260 Once you have a certain percentage of people attending private schools,
you've got some political power. And you've got a whole lot of people
who are sick and tired of paying taxes into a system that they don't
use.


That guy who created the Khan Academy online is doing something like this. I think I read it on Instapundit.

His plan is fucking genius. Instead of having 4 year programs where you pay out the ass in whatever degree you want, his plan is to offer all the course material online for free. There's no time limit. You study the material at your own pace until you feel you've mastered it. Then, when you think you are ready to be tested, you report to a test center where the proctor gives your "final" or thesis defence. If you pass, you receive your diploma/certification/whatever. You pay a modest fee for this testing service. Khan said he thinks it wouldn't cost more than $100.


Posted by: EC at February 07, 2013 01:38 PM (GQ8sn)

261
I hate February.

Posted by: TudorsDrool;RicardiansRule! at February 07, 2013 01:38 PM (lSaJq)

262 That's better than learning how to weld and making money in ND how exactly?

It's racist to expect people to move to where the work is instead of sitting around getting paid by the government to not work.

Unless they're foreign nationals, of course.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at February 07, 2013 01:38 PM (/kI1Q)

263 Congress?

Posted by: rickb223 at February 07, 2013 01:37 PM (GFM2b)


Thread winner.

Posted by: jwb7605 (Let It Burn) at February 07, 2013 01:38 PM (Qxe/p)

264 A federal income tax deduction for private school tuition will slowly erode government control of schooling and curriculum


So the IRS gets to determine what schools are qualified for the deduction? What could possibly go wrong?

Posted by: Hrothgar - Bill Ayres Professor of Indoctrination at February 07, 2013 01:38 PM (Cnqmv)

265 229 NO! NOT VOUCHERS! A FEDERAL INCOME TAX DEDUCTION FOR PRIVATE SCHOOL TUITION! THIS IS THE WAY TO GO!
Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:30 PM (s+f26)
----
A little complicated since public schools are basically funded by property taxes, which are already deductible.

Supposedly it costs 7k a year per student. Thats 84k for 12 years. $84,000 and 12 years to learn basic math seems pretty expensive and ineffective.

Posted by: Whatev at February 07, 2013 01:39 PM (A7Wh1)

266 A federal income tax deduction for private school tuition will slowly erode government control of schooling and curriculum

Don't be so sure. Just look at those 160 pages I had the USDA put out to force your stupid ass kids to eat like Michelle says you should.

Posted by: Pres**ent Barack “Unexpectedly Humble” Obama at February 07, 2013 01:39 PM (e8kgV)

267 Remind me again why only cops should have weapons?
Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 07, 2013 01:32 PM (NTBjC)


While I generally agree, what would having a weapon served you against trigger happy cops?

Posted by: Heralder at February 07, 2013 01:40 PM (+xmn4)

268 Kids who fail out of or are expelled from school should be sent to workhouses to spend their days trudging on treadmills. Treadmills that generate clean, green electricity. At the end of the semester, they get the chance to go back to school. Fuck up in class, and it's back to the treadmill.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at February 07, 2013 01:35 PM (CJjw5)


-----------------------------------------------


The epitome of sustainable green energy. I like it. Make it for 12 hour shifts and I like it even better.

Posted by: Soona at February 07, 2013 01:40 PM (1i3nI)

269 If you're 18 and you read on a second-grade level, what the hell career possibilities are open to you?

Depending on your melanin content, you can be admitted to a university to play sports or major in Edukashun.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at February 07, 2013 01:40 PM (/kI1Q)

270 251
The teacher unions in CA spend millions on donk ads,
Posted by: TudorsDrool;RicardiansRule! at February 07, 2013 01:36 PM (lSaJq)

__________________

Have you seen those CA smoke free ads?

The ones where oxygen masks drop out of the sky because someone is polluting the air outside by smoking one cig.


Posted by: tasker at February 07, 2013 01:40 PM (r2PLg)

271 Honestly, the best solution is to simply get the federal government out of education. Let's face it. There are a lot of great ideas out there. If only the states could experiment. If only we could get rid of the Department of Education.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:41 PM (gmeXX)

272 264 Hrothgar,

Quite. How does letting Free Shit Army openly fuck up their kids lives as the public school model is currently doing while allowing responsible parents to aid their kids in reaching maximum potential alter where we are headed? Your kid doesn't seem collegey enough....send him to 6 years of Votech in his avocation.

At the end of the day what our education system has devolved into is a perpetual motion machine for college radicals.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:41 PM (LRFds)

273 Totally off topic but the USGA will send you two copies of the "Rules of Golf" book for the price of shipping. The book has 208 pages and fits nicely into your golf bag.
Shipping cost me about $3.00.

Posted by: boniface ballers at February 07, 2013 01:41 PM (l3RZ9)

274 The Good News?

If you get to the top of the "Kill List"?

You'll never know about it.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger (aka Ol' 3 tooth) at February 07, 2013 01:41 PM (qyv02)

275 You know what's really fun? Talking to my mom, the retired at 57 former highschool counselor, about why we homeschool. You'd think saying "we are happy with our decision to homeschool" would be sufficient, but no.

Posted by: Lauren at February 07, 2013 01:41 PM (wsGWu)

276 Republicans are losing because they cater to kooks and bigots. If they catered to sensible center-right people, they would not be in this bad shape.
Posted by: Be Real at February 07, 2013 12:51 PM (wzp46)


Didn't we just get this place fumigated?

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at February 07, 2013 01:41 PM (zF6Iw)

277 Re: Mike Rowe

Idnit funny that he rears his head as a popular figure that has a generally republican attitude and his his shows then get cancelled?

McCarthy my ass..

LIB

Posted by: catman at February 07, 2013 01:41 PM (NYdB8)

278 Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at February 07, 2013 01:40 PM (/kI1Q)

RE: last post

What do you want to be able to search for?

Posted by: Underground Vulgarian at February 07, 2013 01:42 PM (7PqWL)

279 I do not want to talk about vouchers.

Why can't we have a thread on the Senate testimony today? Brennan is up this afternoon.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2013 01:42 PM (GoIUi)

280 That's better than learning how to weld and making money in ND how exactly?
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at February 07, 2013 01:35 PM (VtjlW)

The richest, happiest man I know is a plumber.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:36 PM (l86i3)



Yup. The disparagement of the trades is appalling. There's not one damn thing wrong with working with your hands.


RE: The LA cop killer. dpud sent me a text asking if I was following it and I said no, I didn't know what he was talking about. I pulled up a couple of places, saw the stories but no screaming headlines and sent back that the guy must be a black liberal since it wasn't ginormous red letter scrolls all over the place. And lo, I was right.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at February 07, 2013 01:42 PM (VtjlW)

281
All a voucher is - is taking what you pay in tax and applying it to the school of your choice.

You know - choice. That thing democrats claim to love.

Posted by: Fresh at February 07, 2013 01:42 PM (O7ksG)

282 Totally off topic but the USGA will send you two copies of the "Rules of Golf" book for the price of shipping. The book has 208 pages and fits nicely into your golf bag.


Great. Now I have to go buy a golf bag.

Posted by: rickb223 at February 07, 2013 01:42 PM (GFM2b)

283


Collateral transformation is best explained with an example.
Imagine an insurance company that wants to engage in a derivatives
transaction. To do so, it is required to post collateral with a
clearinghouse, and, because the clearinghouse has high standards, the
collateral must be "pristine"--that is, it has to be in the form of
Treasury securities. However, the insurance company doesn't have any
unencumbered Treasury securities available--all it has in unencumbered
form are some junk bonds. Here is where the collateral swap comes in.
The insurance company might approach a broker-dealer and engage in what
is effectively a two-way repo transaction, whereby it gives the dealer
its junk bonds as collateral, borrows the Treasury securities, and
agrees to unwind the transaction at some point in the future. Now the
insurance company can go ahead and pledge the borrowed Treasury
securities as collateral for its derivatives trade.

Posted by: Jeremy Stein at February 07, 2013 01:42 PM (e8kgV)

284 Stupid liberal ideas are promoted by the government run education monopoly. It is certainly state run mind control. If you give parents a choice you will open the market and increase consumer information insofar as the consumer's understanding of curriculum, and this promotes choice. The progressives managed to change the American mind by gaining control of the education system. This can be reversed, not by conservatives or republicans gaining control but by allowing the consumer to choose and forcing government run schools to compete. WE CAN DO THIS!

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:42 PM (s+f26)

285 Ace, in your system public money is not allowed to go towards any religious education or classes?

Posted by: teej


Do you want millions of dollars in vouchers to go to Nation of Islam or some Wahhabi organization? Because that's exactly what will happen if there is not some limiting factor on the instruction.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 07, 2013 01:43 PM (NTBjC)

286 #277 Why can't Fox hire Mike Rowe? He could go around the country reporting on how people are faring in the Obama economy.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2013 01:43 PM (GoIUi)

287 boniface ballers at February 07, 2013 01:41 PM (l3RZ9)

What? Reading the actual rules? That's for sissy's. (W.J. Clinton)

A little "dry" for my taste. And a LEGAL DOCUMENT.

Which means it's almost incomprehensible in some of the sections.

/s

Posted by: Bitter Clinger (aka Ol' 3 tooth) at February 07, 2013 01:43 PM (qyv02)

288 Kids who fail out of or are expelled from school should be sent to workhouses to spend their days trudging on treadmills. Treadmills that generate clean, green electricity. At the end of the semester, they get the chance to go back to school. Fuck up in class, and it's back to the treadmill.

***

I think you've found the solution to Pixy's occasional downtime issues.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 07, 2013 01:43 PM (piMMO)

289 You know what's really fun? Talking to my mom, the
retired at 57 former highschool counselor, about why we homeschool.
You'd think saying "we are happy with our decision to homeschool" would
be sufficient, but no.

Posted by: Lauren at February 07, 2013 01:41 PM (wsGWu)

I'm not allowed to talk to my wife's aunt anymore after I said "have you seen waiting for superman! It's awesome!"She's a retired (at like 57?!) "computer teacher" at a school. At least I think it's computers, which saddens me, because we have to program her DVR.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 01:43 PM (wGOqj)

290 267 Remind me again why only cops should have weapons?
Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 07, 2013 01:32 PM (NTBjC)
---
I'm told guns are for deer hunting. So I guess they have them for deer, or skeet shooting all the time.

Posted by: Whatev at February 07, 2013 01:44 PM (A7Wh1)

291 Why can't Fox hire Mike Rowe? He could go around the country reporting on how people are faring in the Obama economy.


***

It would certainly get better weekend ratings than Geraldo.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 07, 2013 01:44 PM (piMMO)

292 I've started hearing another "All kids must go to college!" commercial recently. I normally tune it out because I know it's so stupid, but it got me to thinking-

When I was growing up, it was the "accepted wisdom" that if you wanted a "good job" you had to go to college. I was to young and/or naive then to realize that "good job" was a euphemism for "job indoors with no heavy lifting."

Accountants, engineers, lawyers, teachers, mathematicians, scientists, and so on need the kind of training which colleges were designed to provide. But why are those "better" jobs that welder, truck-driver, plumber, construction worker, farmer, or any of those type jobs?

This is a serious question: who snuck that into our collective psyche that being a mathematician (with apologies to AmishDude) is somehow superior to driving a nail or turning a wrench?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:44 PM (jmZ3x)

293 285 Weft-Cut Loop,

Uh guy like I said we have a monolithic semi-Marxist army being built now...

we'd be AHEAD if we splintered their indoctrination.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:44 PM (LRFds)

294 Why can't Fox hire Mike Rowe? He could go around the country reporting on how people are faring in the Obama economy.
Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2013 01:43 PM (GoIUi)

Maybe fox should hire you. Thats a great idea.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:44 PM (l86i3)

295 222 ...."there's no way to get the best and the brightest to teach. They just don't last, they hate it. Because of the students."

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:28 PM (GdalM)

I didn't last and I know a lot of people who didn't last and it wasn't because of the students. It was because of the administration, which encourages the bad behavior that make teaching impossible.

I taught at a juvenile detention center once. The kids were the lowest of the dregs but I loved it. Why? There were strict standards of behavior with clear rewards and punishments. The administration would not tolerate any disruptive behavior.
I had plenty of kids who just put their heads down and slept through lessons, but I never had a single one who disrupted my teaching of others. Or at least not for more than the 5 minutes it took to get them OUT of the classroom.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at February 07, 2013 01:44 PM (C8mVl)

296 We need ditch diggers also

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM (9Bj8R)

297 There's already a chain of charter schools affiliated with Islam.

Posted by: Lauren at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM (wsGWu)

298 Why can't Fox hire Mike Rowe? He could go around the country reporting on how people are faring in the Obama economy

----

That's not a bad idea. Maybe broaden it to make him like a Stossel. He could do success stories like find someone who spent thousands on college but then became an electrician and used those proceeds to pay of his debt. Etc. etc.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM (gmeXX)

299 <<What would you say about a regime which, due to politics, chose to
consign millions of black and Hispanic kids to failing schools...>>

On the other side of that coin, think of the system we could create. A merit-based system in which the individual child is encouraged to succeed based on his or her interests and abilities, and is rewarded for their work and accomplishments?

You wind up with adults who believe the person best suited to control their destiny is themselves, and not their government.

We allowed the other side to engineer this system to purposefully crank out leftist minds for the last forty years with the purpose of political control.

Since Reagan, it's paid off for them.

Posted by: Sgt. York at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM (jEvoA)

300 But why are those "better" jobs that welder, truck-driver, plumber, construction worker, farmer, or any of those type jobs?

The world needs ditch diggers too!

Posted by: EC at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM (GQ8sn)

301 I was no fan of Bushes No Child Left Behind program but it at least had some standards that had to be met. Trouble is a lot of schools didn't come close to meeting those standards so obama says throw it out....Public education is abysmal at best.I blame the NEA for that, and some Parents who are too busy or too lazy to keep track of how well their little darlings are doing...

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM (9+ccr)

302 Do you want millions of dollars in vouchers to go to Nation of Islam or some Wahhabi organization? Because that's exactly what will happen if there is not some limiting factor on the instruction.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 07, 2013 01:43 PM (NTBjC)


This brings up terrifying visions of Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, and even Mormons sending their kids to those in droves.

Posted by: jwb7605 (Let It Burn) at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM (Qxe/p)

303 You know - choice. That thing democrats claim to love.
Posted by: Fresh at February 07, 2013 01:42 PM (O7ksG)

They're only for "choice" if it involves abortion or gay marriage. Economics, education, et al.? Forget it.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM (DrWcr)

304 286

If I were in charge at FOX it would be on my "first to fuck up Bourdain's new time slot on CNN" list.

Posted by: catman at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM (NYdB8)

305 Do you want millions of dollars in vouchers to
go to Nation of Islam or some Wahhabi organization? Because that's
exactly what will happen if there is not some limiting factor on the
instruction.


Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 07, 2013 01:43 PM (NTBjC)

We accredit colleges, I see no reason why we couldn't handle schools. Mandating levels of proficiency and class requirements (the latter is already being done in most places.) would also be simple enough.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 01:46 PM (wGOqj)

306 222 ...."there's no way to get the best and the brightest to teach. They just don't last, they hate it. Because of the students."

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:28 PM (GdalM)

I taught middle school math. It was my peak of maslows heirarchy of needs. My kids were not a problam. The other teachers and the administrators were the problem. I was asked to leave.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:46 PM (l86i3)

307 295 Margarita De Ville,

Add in the new push for "race based punishment systems" and it is another joy.

My problem was NEVER with a student, the bad ones could be ignored mostly my problem was with a bitch who was concerned with not pissing off kids of Aztec Ancestry with facts about the relationship of the Aztecs with their neighbors.

Get the fucking politics out of the classroom and get the fucking unions out of politics.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:46 PM (LRFds)

308 re: "If you're 18 and you read on a second-grade level, what the hell career possibilities are open to you?"

Has anyone said "high school teacher" yet? Because that's the joke. High school teacher!

Unless you're Meghan McCain. Then you can go away to a college marginally better than the best one I could get into with my stupid top-thousand SAT score and a recommendation from a motherfucking five-time Pulitzer winner. Five!

Because merit.

(I recognize the flaw in my joke. McCain graduated from Columbia at a second grade reading level. When she got in, she was gnawing the paint off alphabet blocks. By the hundreds.)

Posted by: oblig. at February 07, 2013 01:46 PM (cePv8)

309 This is one of my favorite, favorite subjects. Kudos to Ace for bringing it up and offering some concrete actions, not just whinging.

Here's an additional thought: This is not just a good wedge issue to use to get conservatism back playing offense; it is an issue that will actually get us votes. My son, aged 19 and in college, actually changed his voter registration to Republican and voted a straight ticket last fall, all because he saw "Waiting for Superman" in his sociology class. When he came home for Thanksgiving he went OFF for a good hour about the movie, and what outrageous assholes and racist thugs the teachers union people are. He went to a very racially mixed suburban elementary school (black and latino kids were bussed from other neighborhoods), so he knows that kids of all races can learn if they are in a good school with good teachers and a principal that gives a damn.

This is an issue that, played the right way, can peel off a lot of young-adult voters who are not yet parents but are close enough to being kids themselves that they can sympathize with the kids being shoved into these shitty schools.

Posted by: rockmom at February 07, 2013 01:47 PM (aBlZ1)

310 the public school system was created in the 1830s in New England ( and quickly spread throughout the Free States ) for two reasons:


To 'nationalize' or Americanize children and to 'socialize' them: get them used to working with strangers, going to a place of work on time, receiving group instruction, etc


actually getting them to learn 'the 3 Rs' was not a primary goal. High school was added in the late 1800s ( a German idea ) to keep them out of the work force while giving SOME of them higher tech skills

Posted by: DOA in Scrambletown, FLA at February 07, 2013 01:48 PM (Dll6b)

311 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:44 PM (jmZ3x)

For a time I think this was pure wage differences. But at the number of people who can do..say..plumbing has decreased, their salaries have gone up!

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 01:48 PM (wGOqj)

312 You are in a very small minority that believes that education should not have public funding. Even John Locke, (yes that one) believed in public education. There is no philosophical theory on how a largely uneducated populous maintains its freedom. Jefferson (yes that one) also lobbied for publicly funded education. All of this not because you were entitled to an education, but because a free society needed to educate you for its own good.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose Offering Moobats Gasoline and Matches at February 07, 2013 01:35 PM (0q2P7)

Well, we did manage to achieve our independence without public education. And become an economic powerhouse without public education. Up until the start of WWII it was a minority of the population that went beyond elementary school. Or as Steyn said once, 8th grade America built America.

Posted by: somebody else, not me at February 07, 2013 01:48 PM (nZvGM)

313 When she got in, she was gnawing the paint off alphabet blocks.

Lead paint, probably, from the looks of things.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 07, 2013 01:48 PM (DrWcr)

314 If you're 18 and you read on a second-grade level, what the hell career possibilities are open to you?

You're screwed because Teleprompter One is written at a third-grade level. You'll have to go to college. (The JC I'm attending actually has a reading class.)

Posted by: t-bird at February 07, 2013 01:48 PM (FcR7P)

315 The world needs ditch diggers too!


Posted by: EC at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM

And well diggers!

Posted by: FruitoftheLoop Bun Warmers, LLC at February 07, 2013 01:48 PM (bGlsD)

316 Accountants, engineers, lawyers, teachers, mathematicians, scientists, and so on need the kind of training which colleges were designed to provide. But why are those "better" jobs that welder, truck-driver, plumber, construction worker, farmer, or any of those type jobs?

This is a serious question: who snuck that into our collective psyche that being a mathematician (with apologies to AmishDude) is somehow superior to driving a nail or turning a wrench?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:44 PM (jmZ3x)



You have heard the snarky "You know something's gone wrong with your life when you have to wear a shirt with your name on it at your job" line right? I never got why that was supposed to be such a killer line. Plumbers may have their name on their shirts, electricians, mechanics, welders, people like that. People like that who probably own their own business and work damn hard and make decent money.

I think this is an area in which I am cannot be persuaded. It is not better to sit here typing words then it is to be out there putting in a transmission. Well, I mean, it's better for me and for the poor person whose transmission I would fuck up but it's not better in general.


It's back to ace's wordsmithing point. The people who can only fix words think that is superior to fixing actual things because it's humiliating to realize otherwise.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at February 07, 2013 01:49 PM (VtjlW)

317
I would love to see vouchers, but they won't even let us choose light bulbs anymore.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 07, 2013 01:49 PM (p/cQy)

318 Is it me, or is Geraldo looking more and more like the banker in monopoly every day?

Posted by: Whatev at February 07, 2013 01:49 PM (A7Wh1)

319 Not saying this article is the be-all/end-all Michelle Rhee definer, but everyone thinking of jumping on her bandwagon should read this. (Sorry if already linked, haven't read all comments)

http://tinyurl.com/cs8g733

Posted by: ghostofhallelujah at February 07, 2013 01:50 PM (XvrTA)

320 The world needs ditch diggers too!Posted by: EC at February 07, 2013 01:45 PMAnd well diggers!
And Gold Diggers! No wait, we already have enough of those.

Posted by: Dax at February 07, 2013 01:50 PM (gUYGX)

321 If you want to erode the progressive cancer into oblivion then a FEDERAL INCOME TAX DEDUCTION for private school tuition is the way to go!

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:50 PM (s+f26)

322 We accredit colleges, I see no reason why we couldn't handle schools. Mandating levels of proficiency and class requirements (the latter is already being done in most places.) would also be simple enough.
Posted by: tsrblke


Right, because it's well known that Islamists are incapable of creating a school that could be accredited.

Every 'genius' idea Republicans come up with never seem to include the possibility of unintended consequences. Why is that?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 07, 2013 01:50 PM (NTBjC)

323 With vouchers, the marxist liberals will use SCOTUS to rule the use of vouchers for religious schools as unconstitutional.

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:31 PM (s+f26)


Somebody didn't read the post that starts this thread.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at February 07, 2013 01:51 PM (673KB)

324 What do you want to be able to search for?

Previous posts. Like sometimes I'll remember we had a huge thread about a person in 2009, but Google and Bing serve me up every post as a result, because they all have "2009" as an archive page in the sidebar. Or they'll serve up every post since the beginning of the blog with that name in a comment, which is another 200 posts, none of which mention the person in the original main post.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at February 07, 2013 01:51 PM (/kI1Q)

325 310 DOA in ScrambleTown,

While a valid point to a degree when i say wrecked a successful system I am speaking of the German model integrated one.

You go to school to get your baseline education and learn socialization and team building skills. Not with 'communitay activism" but tackling the syllabus. One huge difference now versus 30 years ago is we were monitored and made to study alone and in groups and encouraged to form our own groups, and those groups were held to standards or broken up.

Now when I observe I see 28 little islands watching CNN as Channel One News or some video.

Shut the damn gizmos off and teach.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:52 PM (LRFds)

326 The GOP needs to have a "Deduct Government Into Irrelevance" platform.

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:52 PM (s+f26)

327 260 ---"That guy who created the Khan Academy online is doing something like this...."

Posted by: EC at February 07, 2013 01:38 PM (GQ8sn)

These are the kind of possibilities that can (and should) break the current education system apart.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at February 07, 2013 01:52 PM (C8mVl)

328 And Gold Diggers! No wait, we already have enough of those.
Posted by: Dax at February 07, 2013 01:50 PM (gUYGX)

Yep, young, attractive and fuctionally illiterate all cruising the state colleges for MRS degrees. However, the silver lining is a marked increase in the quality of hookers and porn stars.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:52 PM (l86i3)

329 purge Al From Bay Shore

Posted by: JDP at February 07, 2013 01:52 PM (60GaT)

330 We need ditch diggers also
Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM (9Bj8R)

Actually, NO WE DON'T.

That's one of the reasons for the high unemployment: the jobs that are available are above the training/education of the available work force. It's why minorities have a higher unemployment as the lower training/education requiring jobs are drying up.

That's partly because of over regulation and high Minimum Wage Laws.

Right to work. No Minimum Wage Laws.

Start there.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger (aka Ol' 3 tooth) at February 07, 2013 01:53 PM (qyv02)

331 #323, I read the post my friend. You don't know what you are talking about. Go back and take your meds.

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:53 PM (s+f26)

332 Education success is ultimately in the hands of the parents. When there is only one parent, the difficulty increases tremendously. I am in support of vouchers but they are only a band aid.

My solution is segregation of public schools based on willingness to work and learn.Those that don't want to putin the work can go to juvey or a tech school. And also tech schools should be an option for kids who don't plan on going to college.

To me its seems to be an easy solution. The public school teachers continue to have their jobs and kids are in a safe and learningenviroment.

Posted by: polynikes at February 07, 2013 01:53 PM (m2CN7)

333 Oh, and BTW, Michelle Rhee was reforming the DC schools. But when she shitcanned 200 useless administrators and crappy teachers, and they all turned out to be black (because 98% of the teachers and administratorsin DC are) , the race-hustlers went after her and after the mayor who hired her. A corrupt race-hustler then beat the incumbent mayor, almost solely based on votes of black who were pissed about thisAsian bitchfiring a bunch of black people. The campaign rhetoric was racist and revolting.

The DC city government and schooldistrict are well known to be nothing but employment agencies for incompetent black people. Rhee's mistake was not understanding that. Of course, if you only read the Washington Post you will never figure this out, because it's the elephant in the room that nobody will talk about.

Posted by: rockmom at February 07, 2013 01:53 PM (aBlZ1)

334 The people who can only fix words think that is superior to fixing actual things because it's humiliating to realize otherwise.

I don't get that. Of course, as a developer I kind of straddle the line between "fixing actual things" and "fixing words," so maybe I have yet another perspective, but about the only thing that is stopping me from going to school to become a machinist or some other "fixing actual things" job is that with a wife who is a stay-at-home mom and two kids, it's a little late to be hitting that particular reset button.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 01:54 PM (jmZ3x)

335 Well, the world needs ditch diggers too!

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at February 07, 2013 01:54 PM (Z8jS9)

336
From Ace:

Oh And... Millions of downscale white kids are trapped in these failure factories too. So, you know. It's not just about minorities.

We're pretty much "educating" kids to be criminals, oxy addicts, and welfare cases.

Almost all pathologies begin with hopelessness. And you can't tell these kids, "Buck up, it's not hopeless," because in fact it is.

The system is designed to make them hopeless. Or, putting that less tendentiously, the system is definitely not concerned with giving them hope.

----------

The schools are indeed 'failure factories' for the kids, Ace.

But they are 'success factories'...for the Dems.

They have created a dumbed-down population of low info voters, to harvest.
Are we supposed to think that this wasn't by design?

Posted by: wheatie at February 07, 2013 01:54 PM (BZMZX)

337 These are the kind of possibilities that can (and should) break the current education system apart.

Yes, Khan's idea is a paradigm shift on the level of SMOD.

Posted by: EC at February 07, 2013 01:54 PM (GQ8sn)

338 Posted by: weft cut-loop at February 07, 2013 01:50 PM (NTBjC)

Because unintended consequences is a consequence of freedom.

Sure let's start applying our laws in a willy nilly fashion that makes us feel good. All that does is create power nexuses, which in case you haven't noticed liberals tend to use to their advantage.

If they put together a school that meets the requirements, good for them. If we restrict that we've open the door to the left saying "also we don't like those christian schools they say things that upset us."

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at February 07, 2013 01:55 PM (wGOqj)

339 Re: Mike Rowe

His show got cancelled?! Now there's even less chance of me ever getting cable again. A la carte at an empty buffet is not compelling.

Posted by: t-bird at February 07, 2013 01:55 PM (FcR7P)

340 Al From Bay Shore snatches the tall glass of haterade from #329, pours it over his head, and proceeds to sell him to JayQuan for a pack of cigarettes.

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:55 PM (s+f26)

341 lol

Posted by: JDP at February 07, 2013 01:55 PM (60GaT)

342 by the 1960's, the primary goal of the public education system had morphed into providing employment for teachers and administrators, along with providing power to government ( in dispensing about 2/3 of property taxes )


as for Germany and the rest of western Europe, until the 1970s most schools ( through five years of gymnasium / high school ), were segregated by sex

Posted by: DOA in Scrambletown, FLA at February 07, 2013 01:56 PM (Dll6b)

343 330 Bitter clinger,

Actually WE DO!

If minimum wage was abolished and the EPA was given an "immaculate execution" like Ambassador Stevens the US could engage in genuine across the board indutry again.....

fuck the Gaia cult.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:56 PM (LRFds)

344 My wife is a first year teacher in one of the Public schools out here and she has to deal with the failings of previous teachers while teaching her kids. She's teaching basic algebra and the kids don't know their times tables. When I was a kid, the times tables were instilled in us through memorization. The one time, in fourth grade, when I used a calculator on a test I was hammered for cheating. Now, instead of teaching kids basic math skills, such as simple adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing; they are taught how to get by without trying. The kids who do try are the ones who do their homework, etc., and you'll always get that no matter what level of schooling. Yet, with these kids, it seems like they've been taught how to complain, game the system, get their parents in on the charade, and whine until they don't have to do the work any more. My wife is up against a wall when it comes to some of these kids. The teachers who want to teach get bitten, and the ones who don't get praised.

Posted by: radioactive at February 07, 2013 01:56 PM (zZ7lF)

345 "Why are [jobs that invent and create new things] considered better than [jobs that do the same repetitive thing over and over]?"

Our society used to value creativity and innovation and reward excellence.

Now we have to give out participation trophies. Don't want the people without the intellectual prowess to do a job more complicated than digging holes to feel bad about themselves when they're just as good as the chemistry post-doc working on a new polymer for the medical industry.

Better, really, since they didn't waste all that time with book-learnin'. Nyuk.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at February 07, 2013 01:57 PM (/kI1Q)

346 What the fuck is the comments section here turning into? Ace makes a long thoughtful posts, and talks about a person in Michelle Rhee who is a valuable ally in key civic matter....


....and like fucking 80% of the posts are instead about how "she's not really a Republican, so fuck her and the horse she rode in on." Are people going insane? Is this really just devolving into "I MUST DECIDE WHETHER YOU ARE ON TEAM GOOD OR TEAM BAD," with decisions being made from there? Dumb. What a good way to convince people, or the American public at large.

Posted by: Jeff B. at February 07, 2013 01:57 PM (6nNdM)

347 #344, I know that whole story! I used to teach in the New York City Public School system, AKA "Hot Mess Central".

Posted by: Al From Bay Shore at February 07, 2013 01:58 PM (s+f26)

348 The teachers who want to teach get bitten, and the ones who don't get praised.
Posted by: radioactive at February 07, 2013 01:56 PM (zZ7lF)

Been there done that. Tell her to find a private school or charter school. Otherwise she will be a miserable woman.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:58 PM (l86i3)

349 Posted by: Jeff B. at February 07, 2013 01:57 PM (6nNdM)

Sooo, whats your point?

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on KINDLE finally at February 07, 2013 01:59 PM (l86i3)

350 one of my recent students ( in college ) was a retired FBI agent who was getting his teaching credential, and interning that semester in a public school


'AB' -- all Black. Eye-opening: The boys never fought on school grounds; they waited until later, elsewhere. The girls would fight, though--frequently


he was having doubts...

Posted by: DOA in Scrambletown, FLA at February 07, 2013 02:00 PM (Dll6b)

351 "there's no way to get the best and the brightest to teach. They just don't last, they hate it. Because of the students." Posted by: Jeanne of the North at February 07, 2013 01:28 PM (GdalM)

If a true voucher system is instituted, with the child receiving an amount similar to what is spent each year in the inner city schools and nothing else, the best and brightest would flock to the job.

This isn't going to register with most people because it takes a while to explain what it entails. Most people have "schools" locked into a certain mindset and will have a hard time grasping what a change this is. However, if it happens, it would revolutionize education.

Posted by: jwest at February 07, 2013 02:00 PM (ZDsRL)

352 344 radioactive,

Tell her to go punch the Math Education Chair at University of Chicago and McGraw-Hill's editor in the mouth and say "thank you."

Rote mechanic competitive time drills are dead....

nice work Billy Ayers.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 02:00 PM (LRFds)

353 I am on Team Good, but I don't Go Downtown, IYKWIM

Posted by: DOA in Scrambletown, FLA at February 07, 2013 02:01 PM (Dll6b)

354 The world needs ditch diggers too!Posted by: EC at February 07, 2013 01:45 PM

And well diggers!
Posted by: FruitoftheLoop Bun Warmers, LLC at February 07, 2013 01:48 PM (bGlsD)

And lace wiggers!

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at February 07, 2013 02:01 PM (zF6Iw)

355 ATC

Was this your doing?

http://tinyurl.com/betd3fm

Posted by: ChrisP at February 07, 2013 02:01 PM (rG25M)

356 Posted by: Jeff B. at February 07, 2013 01:57 PM (6nNdM)

You are exagerrating to your detriment. Calm down and tell us what you want us to say. By the way, read rockmom's post.

Posted by: polynikes at February 07, 2013 02:01 PM (m2CN7)

357 but about the only thing that is stopping me from going to school to become a machinist or some other "fixing actual things" job

That's what your garage is for, I think. As I go to school to become a machinist, I'm overwhelmed by the size of the field. I'll never live long enough to master it. However, I could have just gotten and probably will get a HF arc welder and start teaching myself welding in the garage. Repeat as necessary, tool by tool.

Posted by: t-bird at February 07, 2013 02:02 PM (FcR7P)

358 346 Jeff B.

Hey jeff....I took my 2004 PT Cruiser GT stage 1 to the navy yard and the guy looked at men and asked, "what the fuck did you bring that here for? This shop works on Ohio class submarines!"

It's sorta the same thing, she wants vouchers but refuses to identify the multitude of problems in the system...you know the supporting arguments for the position?

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 02:02 PM (LRFds)

359 Kids who fail out of or are expelled from school should be sent to workhouses

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at February 07, 2013 01:35 PM (CJjw5)


I can think of just the right kind of "workhouses" for the girls...

Posted by: Sen. Bob Menendez at February 07, 2013 02:03 PM (Vk2pI)

360 Those who worry about disestablishing education today are just like those who worried about disestablishing religion a couple of centuries ago. The concerns are valid, BTW, and not to be dismissed out of hand.

If parents could send their kids to any school, there would be many who would opt for odious choices, be they Islamist or neo-Marxist. But for every one of those there would be ten sending their kids to Evangelical and Catholic schools.
I'll take those odds over what we have now. In any case, the establishment of education is little different in my mind from the establishment of religion.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at February 07, 2013 02:03 PM (C8mVl)

361 Panetta: Obama Absent Night of Benghazi...

Hillary AWOL...

GENERAL: 'We Never Received a Request for Support'...

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. And deny deny deny

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 07, 2013 02:04 PM (9Bj8R)

362 I have two relatives and a number of friends who are teachers. Want to know what their number one concern is every day?

Please don't let me get into a situation where I might get sued.

One, who is in Indiana, made the mistake of getting in between two students who were fighting. She put her hands on the students to separate them. Now she's being sued by one of the students' parents.

These are people who, in many cases, are working in the worst schools, with the highest dropout rates, and with parents who couldn't give a rat's a$$ about their kids' education. To have to worry for one moment about being sued for the performance of their job is idiotic.

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at February 07, 2013 02:05 PM (7TwHV)

363 JeffB - Did you read the American Thinker article?

Posted by: ghostofhallelujah at February 07, 2013 02:05 PM (XvrTA)

364 Actually WE DO!
Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 01:56 PM (LRFds)

I was referring to the fact that most "ditches" aren't dug these days. (even actual ditches)
They use heavy machinery to do it because hand labor costs too much. (due to UNIONS and MINIMUM WAGE LAWS)

And the euphemism of ditch diggers was referring to low paid entry level work as a manual laborer.

That's all gone with all the regulations/taxes/oversight/penalties/union grievances/Liberal gobbledy gook PC and hiring practices.

Without a reset on all that stuff, no one or program can revitalize the economy.

The liberals haven't yet killed the goose(not for lack of trying). They've just weighed it down with so much overhead that it can't move and can't lay hardly any eggs anymore.

Death is approaching.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger (aka Ol' 3 tooth) at February 07, 2013 02:06 PM (qyv02)

365 Rather then a tax credit for private schools, how about ending the federal subsidy of local government through the credit for local taxes.

Posted by: Jean at February 07, 2013 02:06 PM (Y8t25)

366 On Thursday, Senate sources told Breitbart News exclusively that they have been informed that one of the reasons that President Barack Obama’s nominee for Secretary of Defense, Chuck Hagel, has not turned over requested documents on his sources of foreign funding is that one of the names listed is a group purportedly called “Friends of Hamas.”


Charming?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 07, 2013 02:06 PM (9Bj8R)

367 Our society used to value creativity and innovation and reward excellence.

Does that engineer actually build the building or the car? What "new thing" does the lawyer create?

Your bias is showing.

I'm not saying that the intellectual professions aren't valuable. I'm not even saying that, from a wealth creation standpoint, they aren't "more valuable." But we only need a limited number of those.

There was only one Einstein, after all. Only one Tesla, for that matter, or one Pasteur, or one Curie, or one Galileo.

Most people in those "higher" professions aren't inventing anything new, and a surprisingly high number of people who actually invent something new bothered with college.

And "excellence?" What does that even mean, beyond providing your product with closer to the "perfect" nexus of quality and price than your competitors?

How does a college or university (which is probably designed along the same "education factory" lines as most public schools) create people who are going to "invent something new?"

So tell me- after adjusting for your own bias- how is any given mathematician/engineer/lawyer superior (morally or economically) to any given machinist/welder/construction worker?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 02:07 PM (jmZ3x)

368 THE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION RATE IN DETROIT IS 26%!!
---

That's surprising. I wasn't aware that Detroit had high schools.

Posted by: Dam Sockpuppet at February 07, 2013 02:08 PM (YmPwQ)

369 I used to work with temps, mostly young people coming from L.A. center city, every color, every race. They can barely fill out their pay stubs. Honestly. They have been housed and then turned loose into the world completely unprepared for even the basics of life. No one cared whether they could read or write or understand adult life. Parents, schools, no one.

Of course their areas always vote Dem.

Posted by: PJ at February 07, 2013 02:08 PM (ZWaLo)

370 The single biggest thing conservatives must fight in pushing for school vouchers is the DMM myth that we are doing it "because we hate public schools" and want to undermine everything governments do thatpeople actually like. Lots of suburban soccer moms instinctively bristle at talk of vouchers, even for inner city schools they never see, because of this knee-jerk reaction that it is "undermining" the entire concept of public schools and that somehow it is a camel's nose under the tent that will lead to their nice white suburban schools being ruined. Liberals have been very effective for years in pushing this idea withwhite suburban votersand turning this wedge issue right around against us.

Posted by: rockmom at February 07, 2013 02:08 PM (aBlZ1)

371 332 ---"My solution is segregation of public schools based on willingness to work and learn.Those that don't want to putin the work can go to juvey or a tech school. And also tech schools should be an option for kids who don't plan on going to college. "

Posted by: polynikes at February 07, 2013 01:53 PM (m2CN7)

THIS. Get the disrupters, the ones who do not want to be there, OUT and into a strictly disciplined environment.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at February 07, 2013 02:10 PM (C8mVl)

372 362---" I have two relatives and a number of friends who are teachers. Want to know what their number one concern is every day?
Please don't let me get into a situation where I might get sued."

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at February 07, 2013 02:05 PM (7TwHV)

Hugely important point, Kevin. This curse even infects private schools.
Shakespeare is right. FIRST we kill the lawyers.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at February 07, 2013 02:13 PM (C8mVl)

373 They use heavy machinery to do it because hand labor costs too much. (due to UNIONS and MINIMUM WAGE LAWS)

Actually, even without the unions or minimum wage laws hand labor would cost much more, relative to heavy machinery.

Consider laying a rode. Back when people did it by hand, or with "light machinery," an average crew of 10 men could lay about one mile of road in a day (I don't remember where I heard that: maybe Modern Marvels, back when it was good). With modern road laying equipment, that same crew can lay 10 times the road.

Now, without unions and minimum wage laws, the discrepancy might be less, but it would still be there.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at February 07, 2013 02:13 PM (jmZ3x)

374 Ahhh. Jeff B's back and he's CONCERNED ABOUT AOSHQ and our vetting of those who claim to be conservatives.

Thanks Jeff. We really appreciate all your inciteful and concerned commentary on the goings on here. And, of course, your genius applied to the solutions ready made for our implementation.

Your concern is important to us. Please don't allow our neglect to respond or our outright disdain at your excellent contributions to cause your feelings to be hurt. Although that is what is meant.

Please don't hesitate to exit the area without the facility barrier's handle striking you on your posterior.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger (aka Ol' 3 tooth) at February 07, 2013 02:14 PM (qyv02)

375 363 JeffB - Did you read the American Thinker article?
Posted by: ghostofhallelujah at February 07, 2013 02:05 PM (XvrTA)

I did. It was screeching, reaching, and asinine. The whole point was "she has liberal friends that are really liberal."

Really? REALLY?

The new Asian American vanguard in this country is almost 100% liberal. I'm not surprised in the least. IT DOESN'T MATTER! The only thing that matters in terms of education is getting the right reforms in place, and nobody's going to do it by demanding the only ones to reform be members of the Tea Party.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at February 07, 2013 02:15 PM (csi6Y)

376 THE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION RATE IN DETROIT IS 26%!!
---
And how many of them can read?

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at February 07, 2013 02:15 PM (C8mVl)

377 "has not turned over requested documents on his sources of foreign
funding is that one of the names listed is a group purportedly called
“Friends of Hamas.""

this must be some kind of devious neocon trick. must be!

Posted by: JDP at February 07, 2013 02:26 PM (60GaT)

378 Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at February 07, 2013 02:15 PM (csi6Y)

You got less out of it than I did. I'd settle for being able to back dramatic "reforms" accomplished with actual facts and not serving on a board with Andy Stern, doesn't have to be Tea Party tho'.

Posted by: ghostofhallelujah at February 07, 2013 02:30 PM (XvrTA)

379 375

sounds typical of that site

Posted by: JDP at February 07, 2013 02:31 PM (60GaT)

380 THE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION RATE IN DETROIT IS 26%!! ---
And how many of them can read?


I'll bet they have no problem reading "Obama" just fine.

Or "D"

Or "Colt 45"

Or "Glock"

Yep - feelin' bitter today.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at February 07, 2013 02:32 PM (zF6Iw)

381 "poor black kids either don't matter or can't be educated" Of course they can be educated, but the "achievement gap" between average blacks and average whites is likely intractable, in the short- to medium-run anyway. There are reasons for this, and yes, I am disgustingly racist to point it out. But it's nevertheless fun and convenient to chastise Democrat Party teachers for their failure to "close the gap."

I kinda feel sorry for Michelle Rhee. There was no way a Korean-American woman was going to be pleasantly welcomed as a boss over an entrenched majority-black union workforce. Some of the testing gains the district made during Rhee's tenure appear to have resulted from cheating. Rhee did not encourage the cheating, but she didn't seem too interested in investigating it either.

If we're going to have standardized testing in schools, it must be administered by fully independent proctors, without involvement of school faculty and administration, who have too much incentive to cheat, especially under accountability-based policies like Rhee's.

Posted by: gp at February 07, 2013 02:39 PM (+Jpqc)

382 come on, it's more important to vote donkey so that hypothetical gays can get married instead of taking care of stupid breeder's kids.

Posted by: joeindc44 is now more concerned about Dark Ages 2.0 than Great Depression 2.0 at February 07, 2013 02:41 PM (QxSug)

383 This main blog post is like a Ferrari without wheels. From a certain level up it looks fantasic. But it missed the giant neon screaming elephant in the room. The only way to get education reform is for Republicans to hold more elected offices than the Democrarts held at the very height of the latter's power. For the simple and obvious reason that politicians determine laws, not blog posts or editorials, and Democrats will fight tooth and nail against education reform until their dying breaths. And you can't have a "national conversation" about education reform. The media wouldn't report it. You'd need simply to enact it, the way W. Bush and the GOP Congress enacted those tax cuts. Again, elections, not words, determine laws and policies.

Posted by: Tsar Nicholas II at February 07, 2013 02:45 PM (pmsMR)

384 No vouchers to parochial schools? You mean, the ones who actually produce good citizens? All you are calling for is setting up a parallel government approved school system, attached to government mandates, with government conditions, to get government money. In other words, you are promoting Obamacare for Education - taking a system and adding another bureaucratic layer of control. No thanks.

Posted by: mama winger at February 07, 2013 02:50 PM (P6QsQ)

385 <i>"Republicans are losing politically right now because we're always on defense."</i>

Not sure 'cringe and whimper' rises to the level of 'defense'.

Posted by: PersonFromPorlock at February 07, 2013 02:54 PM (5hNpF)

386 Posted by: ghostofhallelujah at February 07, 2013 02:30 PM (XvrTA)

I knew she was a prog. We don't need to write them off when they agree with us.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at February 07, 2013 02:57 PM (csi6Y)

387 We're pretty much "educating" kids to be criminals, oxy addicts, and welfare cases.


IOW, the Democrats are expanding their base.

Posted by: Brendan at February 07, 2013 03:30 PM (2jQGY)

388 386 Yoshi,

She doesn't agree with us.

She wants US to save her current mess.

Posted by: sven10077 at February 07, 2013 03:32 PM (LRFds)

389 the voucher system is such a great idea in theory--and god knows it works in countries whose kids are collectively kicking our kids' asses scholastically--but the reality is, should such a system be widely enacted here without an accompanying set of world-class standards, those vouchers would be spent by parents whose own educational standards and critical-thinking skills were shaped by the very system we're trying to reform. combine that with dumbass religious fundamentalism, and we'd have masses of american students graduating high school believing the earth is 6,000 years old and moses rode dinosaurs.

am i cynical? maybe a little.

Posted by: mkf at February 07, 2013 03:33 PM (6VjVs)

390 Say your elderly mother had to be hospitalized for life-threatening
cancer. The best doctor in the region is at Sacred Heart, a Catholic,
private hospital. Could you ever imagine saying this? “Well, I don’t
think our taxpayer dollars should subsidize this private institution
that has religious roots, so we’re going to take her to County General,
where she’ll get inferior care. ’Cause that’s just the right thing to
do!”



Only if we can force Sacred Heart to give mom birth control.

Posted by: Sandra Fluke at February 07, 2013 03:35 PM (2jQGY)

391 combine that with dumbass religious fundamentalism

---------------

the dumbass religious fundamentalism schools that we sent our children to produced a Professor of Nursing who teaches others to become equipped to work in surgery and ICU, as well as an officer in the Army who has completed three tours of duty on your behalf.

You're welcome.

Posted by: mama winger at February 07, 2013 03:55 PM (P6QsQ)

392 "In Obama’s America, even Lindsay Lohan has to move back in with her mom"

http://tinyurl.com/a5v44ky

"Harvard: Just 6 in 10 Millennials have jobs, half are part-time"

http://tinyurl.com/ajj55op

Perhaps her best move was not to get that coveted college degree.

Posted by: food fight! at February 07, 2013 03:57 PM (/b8+5)

393 In the suburbs all over America your property taxes pay for your schools. You move to a particular area so that your child can attend a particular school. The homes in the areas with the finest schools come with the highest prices and taxes and people are willing to pay to have the children attend those schools and to have them have a better shot at attending an excellent college.

People in those areas do not want a voucher system. They do not want people from areas outside of their geographic area having access to their schools that they are paying for in their enormous property taxes and home prices. They see this as an "inner city" issue that should not apply to them.

Some of the school boards in these suburban schools allow for "tuition paying students". Last time I heard of tuition paying students they were paying ten grand a year per kid to send their kids. It was a bargain as it was less than private or boarding school tuition. The residents of the school district ultimately ended this by voting out the school board members who thought of the tuition idea.

Posted by: food fight! at February 07, 2013 04:03 PM (/b8+5)

394 "DUPED… Harvard Study Reveals Just 6 in 10 Americans Under 30 Have Jobs – Half Are Part-Time"
http://tinyurl.com/bg7q9as

Jim Hoft at Gateway Pundit picked up on this too.

Where are these kids living? Are they on unemployment? food stamps? welfare? Are they living at home with their parents? How are they getting their health insurance? Part time workers normally don't get health insurance and they don't make enough to even share an one bedroom apartment with ten other people.

Why aren't they a little bit upset about their lot in life?

Posted by: food fight! at February 07, 2013 05:10 PM (/b8+5)

395 I realize I'm late here, but the G.I. Bill and federal student loans paid for most of my four years at Bible College. Why vouchers couldn't pay for Parochial or other religious schools is beyond me.

Posted by: 29Victor at February 07, 2013 08:08 PM (ES9R7)

396
@ 393
I think you are right, even in places that don't pay for schooling with property tax. People pay a premium to live in areas with good schools. Allowing wide-ranging transfers would bring in students from outside those expensive housing zones. Parents who shell out to live in those areas will resist.
Income tax deduction: if you are sufficiently poor, will a deduction matter? Would it have to a be a refundable?? tax credit?
And generally, why wouldn't this just lead to tuition increases at private schools? Isn't that what happened when the government provided tuition support for colleges?
And the "no religious instruction" for voucher students would create a weird situation at Catholic schools. I used to teach at one and religious instruction was in the atmosphere: prayer at the start of class, stuff on the walls, prayer at lunch, etc. You'd have to stop being a Catholic school - it's not just religion class. How do they segregate that federalPell Grantmoney at a Catholic college? What if instead they just were tough on secular academic standards - if the kid learns that stuff well, who cares if the school is also teaching religion? Are they willing to go on record as wanting to ensure all poor kids grow up to be atheists?

Posted by: Hal at February 07, 2013 11:16 PM (0XQAI)

397 #316 alexthechick-

I work part time as a tax preparer and have been doing taxes. I have 25 and 26 year old guys making $65-105K a year as a pipefitter, welder and pipe designer (that was the 25 year old making $105K). I have been trying to advise these guys on investing their money so they don't have to pay so much in taxes (they aren't married, no kids and no home). They are paying $20-30K in taxes.

One of them told me today he would rather have the house than a wife and kids. I told him with his salary he could get two house (because you can deduct interest on up to two homes)...she and the kids live in one and he live in the other.

Now compare that to the degreed people the same age - waiting tables and deducting the interest on their $20K student loan.

I also have people who make $8-10K/yr, have three kids and are getting around $9K back in a refund. I don't know why they call it a refund because they never had anything close to $9K withheld from their paycheck....but with Earned Income Credit, Child Credit, etc...the government is paying them. I mean, the taxpayers are paying them. I had one guy ask me if he could get credit for his food stamps. He didn't understand why he can't get food stamps and the dollar amount of those food stamps in his "refund". When I told him that is like double dipping, he said, "sheeeeeeeeiiit, but I need the money". The government isn't that generous...at least not yet.

Posted by: tinkerbella at February 07, 2013 11:42 PM (ER/qb)

398 "The law would require other certifications like No Religious
Discrimination and No Religious Instruction (at least not for any
student whose education is paid for, in whole or in party, by vouchers)."

Shorter Ace: Religious discrimination is COOOOL!

If you propose to take tax money from religious people to fund it, then it is discriminatory not to let them benefit from it equally.

Posted by: SDN at February 08, 2013 12:02 AM (btinU)

399 best ace post, ever.

Cites the problem
Offers working solution
Not cynical and snarky.

Bravo!

Posted by: 13times at February 08, 2013 04:19 AM (h6XiD)

400 Nope. Vouchers are the open door for the federal government to insert federal regulations into private schools. http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/marketplacek12/2013/02/post_1.html?cmp=ENL-EU-NEWS2

Not only that, but until we get rid of the Common Core State Standards, choice means nothing. http://restoreoklahomapubliceducation.blogspot.com/2013/01/school-choice-whats-that.html

Posted by: jenni at February 08, 2013 10:50 AM (bGGkR)






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