NBC/WSJ Poll: For First Time, Majority Thinks That Abortion Should Be Legal in All or Most Situations

Bad news for the pro-life position, but maybe not as bad as it seems.

According to the poll, 54 percent of adults say that abortion should be legal either always or most of the time, while a combined 44 percent said it should be illegal – either with or without exceptions…

In addition, a whopping 70 percent of Americans oppose the Roe v. Wade decision from being overturned, including 57 percent who feel strongly about this…

By comparison, just 24 percent now want the Roe v. Wade decision overturned, including 21 percent who feel strongly about this position.

Much of this change, the NBC/WSJ pollsters say, is coming from African Americans, Latinos and women without college degrees — all of whom increasingly oppose the Supreme Court decision from being overturned.

I highlighted Latinos to rebut this enduring myth that Latinos are "naturally conservative" because of their "religious and family values" or whatnot.

As far the topline number, I don't think it's as bad for the pro-life position as it seems simply because I never believed the number when it showed a majority supported the pro-life position, either. In any group sharing an opinion, one third or so will be strong believers, one third will be moderately strong believers, and one third will be light (at best) believers.

This last group is very capable of changing their position at the drop of a hat, because they barely believe in their position. It would be more accurate to say they really don't care about the abortion issue at all than that they are pro-life or pro-choice; if you force them to answer the question, they'll say pro-life or pro-choice, depending on which side is favored by people they know, but even if they flip to the other side it's doubtful they care strongly about that, either.

So I never really believed there was a true "pro-life majority" in the first place. What there was a significant pro-life majority, 35% or maybe 40%, plus enough leaners willing to say they were pro-life to get the number to break 51%. Now a bunch of the latter have changed their nominal position, but they're no more strong pro-choicers than they were pro-lifers.

But that's not to say that the numbers mean nothing at all. The fact that some of these leaners have switched -- most likely for superficial and ephemeral reasons -- does indicate that at least in the realm of superficial and ephemeral beliefs, the pro-choice position now holds the edge.

Why would this be? I can think of a few reasons.

First, unplanned pregnancy is a major lifestyle change for the unmarried. For the married, and especially those who are married and already have some kids, it may be a lifestyle change and a major inconvenience, but it's usually not scary. As fewer and fewer people get married (and people get married at an older age) the pro-choice position is going to increase, because for this cohort unplanned pregnancy is a scary thing, and they want an Out, whatever the philosophical or moral implications might be.

Second, pro-lifers have been overplaying their hand. If someone's in a relationship and isn't sure where he stands, he can issue an ultimatum, either we take this to the next level, or we call it quits. The benefit to such an ultimatum is that it will be a clarifying moment, as a pointed question must now be answered; but the danger there, of course, is that the lightly-attached other might just call it quits.

The Tea Party is not (I'm told) primarily concerned with social issues, but it does definitely stand for Clarification on Important Issues and Issuing an Ultimatum. I think that spirit has been contagious on the right, and those who favor pro-life positions are also running on Conviction platforms now, no longer as willing to fudge issues and offer crowd-pleasing but empty evasions. Todd Akin and Richard Mourdoch, of course, did not offer such evasions, but instead proudly offered their true convictions about the matter.

Well, just as in issuing a relationship ultimatum, issuing a firm, no-evasions stance on a hot-button issue which everyone has some opinion about is dangerous. Sure, it's possible that some people, having heard you announce your position with clarity and courage, will move to your camp, and may move from being light believers to moderately-strong believers or even strong believers.

As many political activists say, "At what point do we chose a hill to die on?" Those with strong political beliefs are tired of being told that this hill, that hill, all the hills are conveniently in this category of Hills Upon Which We Must Not Die.

But of course there's also the downside of the Strong Position, Clearly Announced: Those who are merely lightly attracted to your cause may just decide they're Just Not That Into You, that you're asking more than they're willing to give, and break things off to find other suitors.

And I don't think there's a Silver Lining here, either. In these situations, those who favor the Strong Position, Clearly Announced method grasp at the silver lining, even in political defeat, noting all the positives which flow from the defeat. In the case of Mike Castle, for example, it's noted that we laid down a marker, that we at least did not endorse/advance the cap and trade position, and we've imposed some discipline on elected politicians, that they cannot take our votes for granted, and that they'd better do their utmost to curry favor with us.

Those things are true, but a defeat's a defeat, and further, if public sentiment begins inching away from you towards your opponent, it's not just a single-seat political defeat but a general political defeat which will start causing bad results in unrelated contests.

It may sound like I'm knocking the Tea Party approach, and I am, but only to this extent: I'm not in favor silly bullshit like "Defeat is Clarifying" and "At least we sent a message" and such like. The Patriots "sent a message" to the Ravens on Sunday; that message was "You're stronger than we are."

Everything the Tea Party believes -- that we have to discipline our own politicians to make sure they vote the way we prefer, that fudging on issues may get you elected but ultimately do nothing as far as political results (because you never honestly secured a mandate for action in the first place), and so on, is all completely true, and it's important stuff to keep in mind in any campaign or any interval between campaigning.

But while these things are all true, it's also true that a Loss is a Loss, and it's also true that Losing Public Support is a bad thing (and leads to further bad things down the line), too.

I find myself always playing Devil's Advocate when I discuss these things in real life: I can't stand the Establishment types who never want to make a stand at all. But then I also can't stand the Moderation Is No Virtue sort of crowd who seems to view tactics with scorn.

I can't say either is "right." I think they're actually both right. I think my real problem is with people who can't see that both sides are right, that all these things are true, that there are always unavoidable tradeoffs in any sort of decision-making like this, whether about tactics or substance.

Yes, taking the Strong, Uncompromising Position has a chance of moving the Overton Window in your direction, which the Weak-Tea Fudge Position does not.

But then, taking the Strong, Uncompromising Position can also move the Overton Window away from you, too.

It's a high-risk strategy. As in investing, high-risk plays are the only ones that can generate high value rewards... but then they can also bankrupt you. You can make high-risk investments, but not too many of them, and you have to make such decisions only with great care and deliberation.

I think, by the way, that the GOP largely pursued the Strong Position, Clearly Announced strategy with regard to budget and entitlements. And let me say that I favored this tactic, and I favored the substance of what was being pursued. I was (and remain) a fan of the Ryan Plan.

But just because I favored this play doesn't mean it worked out for us. That is, just because I really, really wanted the high-risk gamble to pay off doesn't mean it did pay off, or that the odds of it paying off were high.

I thought the odds were better than they were, because I wanted the odds to be better than they were. I wanted to think America was ready to hear some adult talk about budget, deficits, entitlements, and free lunches, and its citizens were ready to do their civic duty and learn about the issues and make informed decisions about them.

It turns out I was wrong. They wanted happy talk, they wanted to hear "We've got years and years and years to solve these problems, and in fact it might all just fix itself if we give it enough time, so we should just stop even talking about this stuff and let the Sage Harry Reid make our budgetary decisions for us."

And that's how Obama got elected-- by refusing to clarify, by talking on both sides of his mouth, occasionally vaguely mentioning budgetary discipline and entitlement reform while sending a very clear signal that he did not intend to change a thing.

I mention this because I don't want people to think I'm bashing the Tea Party (except to undermine this idea that the Strong Position, Clearly Announced tactic has no downsides at all and is nothing but upside). I certainly favored the high-risk play.

I was always afraid, though, that the public was not in fact ready for The Truth, and still wanted To Be Lied To, and in fact that was exactly the case.

I'm now wondering if Paul Ryan & Co. wouldn't have been better served, at least tactically, by the age-old political strategy called "lying."

It worked for Obama. Why shouldn't it work for us? We can lie too. I know we can lie. I've lied before. I think I'm sort of good at it.

I'm not sure "The Truth" is a particularly good play in politics. Todd Akin may have told us his honest opinions, and Richard Mourdock too, but did the voters (as a collective whole) actually ask for their honest opinions?

It's important in any business to know what the market actually wants, and sell it what it wants -- as opposed to selling it what you think they ought to want.

Akin and Mourdoch thought, or gambled, that the public wanted their real, honest position on abortion in cases of pregnancy caused by rape. I don't think that's what the market wanted at all.

I think we're always, always going to have this great cleave between what we want as committed ideologues and what we want -- or maybe just need -- as pragmatic political actors.

As an ideologue, I wanted the Ryan Budget and I wanted other politicians to have to take a position on it, so that, if we came to power, we'd have a genuine mandate for it, and the public would have given its blessing (indirectly), and we'd get some actual results for a change.

But as a political actor, I think maybe I should have preferred a go-slow, fudge-it-up, more... "sensitive" approach to the issue. (And by "sensitive" I mean: Dishonest.)

The only upside of losing when making a stand is that at least the public has heard your case-- perhaps some time down the road, they'll even be receptive to it. Later on, as years pass, maybe it won't seem as scary to them, as they've heard it often enough it becomes unthreatening and common, like furniture.

But that's a lot of maybes, and that's all in the future. What we have right now, in the present, with no maybes about it, is a public that's shifted to the pro-choice position, shifted to the pro-amnesty position, and shifted to the Bullshit and Bankruptcy position on budgetary matters.

Posted by: Ace at 02:06 PM



Comments

1 Ace I thought you knew by now. Any poll done by a news organization, and especially NBC, is worthless crap.

Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:09 PM (53z96)

2 I only support abortion when leftists abort themselves...

...whether before birth or after.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:09 PM (XkWWK)

3 Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:09 PM (53z96)

Doesn't the sand get in your ears and mouth and nose?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 22, 2013 02:11 PM (GsoHv)

4 >>>Ace I thought you knew by now. Any poll done by a news organization, and especially NBC, is worthless crap.

Vic, I thought so and said so quite a few times during the 2012 campaign.

It turns out the polls were by and large right.

Am I to continue peddling this line, even after it's been rubbished?

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:12 PM (LCRYB)

5 off topic but interesting, on gateway pundit

Hmm… Shock Claim: Obama Only Wants Military Leaders Who ‘Will Fire on U.S. Citizens’

Posted by: mallfly at January 22, 2013 02:12 PM (bJm7W)

6 So they reworded the question and then ran another crap poll.

Posted by: Theodore G. Bilbo at January 22, 2013 02:12 PM (y0yTH)

7 As we progress through this increasingly progressive age we live in, with fewer and fewer considering themselves affiliated with any church, into The Age of Obama, we'll see this position, the abortion-is-OK position, get more widely accepted.

Posted by: The littl shyning man at January 22, 2013 02:13 PM (PH+2B)

8 Lying was how Spongebob and Patrick were able to sell CHOCLATE!

Posted by: deepred at January 22, 2013 02:13 PM (YmACv)

9 I'm not sure that exterminating genetic lines of Leftards was what I had in mind, IYKWIMAITTYD.

Posted by: David Attenborough at January 22, 2013 02:13 PM (QKKT0)

10 if the polls were wrong then they swore in the wrong Commander in Chief.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:13 PM (LCRYB)

11 Ace I thought you knew by now. Any poll done by a news organization, and especially NBC, is worthless crap.


Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:09 PM (53z96)




It wasn't done by a new organization. It was done by NBC

Posted by: TheQuietMan at January 22, 2013 02:13 PM (1Jaio)

12 Technically, Roe hasn't been the law of the land since 1992 when Planned parenthood v. Casey overturned the trimester framework. Although the "essential holding" of Roe was upheld by Casey.

Posted by: Witchfinder at January 22, 2013 02:13 PM (pLTLS)

13 Ace,

Reagan was a master at this. He was pro-life, but made nice sounds so the squishes wouldn't get upset.

Last time I checked he did fairly well in national elections.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 22, 2013 02:14 PM (GsoHv)

14 I'm confused. Did you like the movie or not Ace?

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 02:14 PM (da5Wo)

15 Dead babies are cool again.

Posted by: teh Wind at January 22, 2013 02:14 PM (HBU8E)

16 Then again, you could outlaw abortion and just throw the tykes off a cliff.

Posted by: THIS IS SPARTA!!!!! at January 22, 2013 02:14 PM (QKKT0)

17 5 Posted by: mallfly at January 22, 2013 02:12 PM (bJm7W)


Judging from the purge of flag offices at the DoD, and the multi-culti crap being peddled at West Point and other military colleges, I'd say this is true.

The question is will junior officers and NCO's who have to carry out that order actually carry it out?

This is why the 2nd Amendment is so crucial and the earlier link to the Chinese dissident so telling and timely

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:14 PM (XkWWK)

18
Huh?
Why have I been under the impression that respect for life was on the uptick?
BTW, I'm so glad my daughter is over her fascination with that little Justin Beiber twit. His own mother admits to choosing not to abort him because of Christianity, but he has to distance himself from it. I'm relatively certain he would have chosen to kill himself.
Which begs the question, why don't all these people who think abortion is so great go and have a retroactive one on themselves? Cells are cells, right?

Posted by: Justamom of the LiB camp at January 22, 2013 02:15 PM (Sptt8)

19 I picked a bad week to quit doing crack.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 22, 2013 02:15 PM (GlnE7)

20 >>>So they reworded the question and then ran another crap poll.

for at least one question, they seem to have asked it the same way: Do you favor overturning Roe v. Wade? I don't know if there's really a lot one can do to spin that as a question.

Anyway, the "No's" have grown.

even if you think a poll is off, there is the matter of directionality -- even if a polls is biased, if it shows movement, well, are they biasing it *more* now and were they biasing it *less* before?

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:16 PM (LCRYB)

21 Murder for convenience. Cannibalism of the tenderest victims. Same shit, different monsters.

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at January 22, 2013 02:16 PM (LfAFA)

22
And yes, I always consider the source.
No, I do not believe this propaganda poll.

Posted by: Justamom of the LiB camp at January 22, 2013 02:16 PM (Sptt8)

23 Pro-lifers as a whole marry earlier and have more children than pro-aborts. Yet we see more and more the country creeping to teh latter position.

Take-away: stop sending your children to shitty public schools indoctrination camps, and stop the cant about "pro-life" Latinos and curb illegal immigration.

Posted by: logprof at January 22, 2013 02:16 PM (WqKmU)

24 O/T

Just put one in for the man. NY Slime surveyed me, guess what. Their survey was so biased for them it was funny.

They got poor, which was the worst available. Next was average. Guess they really don't want to know how bad they suck.

Sort of sad, the dumb fucks paid for a self serving poll. Guess it was for their advertising salesman.

I am stealing the subscription from my mother in law, a fucking MA Yankee.

Posted by: Billy Bob, Pseudo Intellectual at January 22, 2013 02:16 PM (wR+pz)

25 The only difference between the two is ketchup

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at January 22, 2013 02:16 PM (LfAFA)

26 I think that instead of allowing abortion, we should sacrifice Leftard kids at the Altar of God Obama. Kiddie sacrifice worked for Carthage, for a while anyway.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 22, 2013 02:17 PM (QKKT0)

27 Out of sight , out of mind is the pyschology behind the acceptance of abortion. Combine that pyschology with the liberal media's war against the pro-life movement and you have the country slowing shifting to pro abortion.

The country haslostits moral bearings and no longer knows the meaning of shame.

Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 02:17 PM (m2CN7)

28 >>>Why have I been under the impression that respect for life was on the uptick?

I don't know what you read but it's possible that self-selection plays a role. I don't know.

I shouldn't just take this one poll as definitive, myself! Which I seem to be doing.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:17 PM (LCRYB)

29 Todd Akin and Richard Mourdoch, of course, did not offer such evasions, but instead proudly offered their true convictions about the matter.

This isn't really accurate. Akin said something very stupid and flat out false. Mourdoch said something very stupid. Neither said much of anything that was fundamental to the pro-life viewpoint. They probably are responsible for this shift, in large part - that's my guess, anyway.

The choice isn't just between 'crowd-pleasing but empty evasions' and 'being a a die-hard activist and an incompetent moron'. There's middle path for being explicit in what you stand for, but also selling it in a positive way. PR matters, but PR doesn't always add up to 'lie'. However, it's complicated, and frankly most politicians probably can't manage it.

Posted by: Crude at January 22, 2013 02:17 PM (P0eiX)

30 I've come around on this issue and am not such an absolutist.

If you want to murder your babies go for it, your going to hell anyways.

If you don't give a shit about your soul then why should I.


I joust don't want to pay for it through my tax dollars.

Kill your babies on your own damn dime!

Posted by: General Woundwort at January 22, 2013 02:18 PM (RrD4h)

31 do most people even know what Roe vs Wade was about?

Posted by: mallfly at January 22, 2013 02:18 PM (bJm7W)

32 Sorry, that last one should have been italicized in the first paragraph. Not sure how the code here works yet.

Posted by: Crude at January 22, 2013 02:18 PM (P0eiX)

33 15
Dead babies are cool again.


Yeah, you can use the collegian or something as a face cream.

Posted by: Noma somebody at January 22, 2013 02:18 PM (wR+pz)

34 There really is a silver lining to this, in that at least it's mostly future black voters being eliminated through the abortion mills. Yeah, that's nasty to say, but it's also true. Abortion is the best way for rich white people to cut down on the number of black and brown babies they have to deal with.

Posted by: Margaret Sanger at January 22, 2013 02:18 PM (hTDbY)

35 Considering Roe v. Wade was a horribly decided decision that cut into the rights of the states to make laws, should we be pointing this out for what it is: the beginning of the end of federalism, not declaring the end of the Pro-Life movement.
54/44 is all it ever was on the other side of the coin, yet we were a "divided country."

Suddenly the narrative is "Pro-life movement dead." I actually suspect not. I don't disagree with the poll, what I suspect is that this is wash over from Obama's "War on Women" rhetoric. Give it a year or two for that to wash over, and I suspect we'll return to the baseline.

(And I suspect the 70% who don't want Roe overturned are simply tired of hearing about it as a measure of a judge. Because some 20% points of those people still want illegal abortion if you take the other set of numbers.)

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 22, 2013 02:18 PM (YrTJq)

36 Our, or at least my, incredulity at these polls and the past two elections is because I am old enough and wise enough to have lived through the the eras of LBJ through the present and KNOW right from wrong.
My morals and instincts have evolved to a state of maturity, both in age and wisdom.

More and more Americans have not experienced this and have been brainwashed by academia to not know any better. They are the ones who are debasing our culture and destroying our heritage.

So it is no surprise that these polls show what they do, regardless of the inherent bias at NBC and WSJ and the MFM in general.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:18 PM (XkWWK)

37 I shouldn't just take this one poll as definitive, myself! Which I seem to be doing.

If you're not declaring this an historic sea-change in American opinion, you're doing it wrong.

Posted by: Newsweek, Still Just A Dollar at January 22, 2013 02:18 PM (QKKT0)

38 Much of this change, the NBC/WSJ pollsters say, is coming from African Americans, Latinos and women without college degrees — all of whom increasingly oppose the Supreme Court decision from being overturned.

They do realize that the percentages in their communities are much, much higher than in the white population, right?

But, hey - if they want to self-exterminate their culture, who am I to stop them? Let them abort their respective races out of existence. I don't care anymore.

Just don't expect me to pay for it, because I see each of those "blobs of cells" as a potential taxpayer whois expected tofoot the bill for my Golden Years.

Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at January 22, 2013 02:19 PM (ADnWI)

39 Well it seems morality and civility are out the window in this Country. Our demise may be coming sooner that we think.

Posted by: Infidel at January 22, 2013 02:19 PM (O/fK8)

40 I think that while people say they support leaving Roe v. Wade in place and that abortion should be legal, more and more people are choosing to live a more pro life position. Despite what MTV and ABC Family and any other reality tv shows about baby mama dramas seem to be peddling. Or maybe in the end because of it...

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at January 22, 2013 02:19 PM (RZ8pf)

41 Look, those of us who are pro-life cannot even effectively make the case anymore to ban the practice of infanticide (a.k.a. "Partial Birth Abortion"), and even the "Born Alive Infant Protection Act" is a struggle to get passed in many states.

Yet, the GOP sends-out statewide candidates who wax moronically about "legitimate rape" and whatnot - and we are amazed that the pro-life position is "losing ground" among the American Sheeple.

It's really not that hard to figure out, folks. Seriously.

Posted by: DocJ at January 22, 2013 02:19 PM (A5uiv)

42 Regardless of what they claim people feel about Roe v Wade, it and the case which they managed to stretch into infinity via Stare Decisis, Griswold v. Connecticut, are probably the absolute worst cases ever adjudicated by the court. Finding a right to anything in unwritten penumbras and emanations. Hell at least Dread Scott had some basis in the Constitution for the key parts of the case. neither of these cases have ANY basis whatsoever.



I am all for killing the case and returning it to the States.

Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:19 PM (53z96)

43 Ace, You're right, this is the squishy middle shifting around. The hard fortification on either side haven't budged an inch.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 22, 2013 02:20 PM (GlnE7)

44 I'm in a different country than the one I thought I was in four years ago. Lots of us are.

We are Eastern Europe Part Dva.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at January 22, 2013 02:20 PM (46pA5)

45 I think we should abort all the kids and let all the old people die.

Posted by: Cricket at January 22, 2013 02:20 PM (DrC22)

46 This is cute:

http://youtu.be/q362H-xg0ZA

Posted by: gigg at January 22, 2013 02:20 PM (41VCE)

47 Doesn't the sand get in your ears and mouth and nose?


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 22, 2013 02:11 PM (GsoHv)

That's a little to obscure for me today, you will have to explain your point.

Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:20 PM (53z96)

48 Anybody catch the Drudge link pic of those gross third-trimester abortion doctors at Cannes, memorializing Tiller the Killer in some "film"? I would say grinning like a certain large rodent eating a certain bodily waste, but can't even imagine how a person murdering little innocent babies could smile.

Posted by: Justamom of the LiB camp at January 22, 2013 02:20 PM (Sptt8)

49 I am all for killing the case and returning it to the States.

Yep. It should never have been granted cert.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 22, 2013 02:21 PM (GlnE7)

50
I have always thought the issue to be 50/50, that's what makes it controversial. A 90/10 issue doesn't get much play. So if it goes 5% one way or the other doesn't really matter, it'll snap back to 50/50.

I had previously thought an actual conservative that wanted to go full Burkian but could lie with aplomb was our best shot. But the GOP doesn't have that *wink, wink* attitude that the dems do.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 22, 2013 02:21 PM (p/cQy)

51 Democrats are always looking for justifications to vote for their candidate. Republicans are always looking for justifications to NOT vote for their candidate. Hence they win

Posted by: DAve at January 22, 2013 02:21 PM (XDC0v)

52 If the added 'and return the question of legalized abortion to the States' to the question whether they agree to overturn Roe v Wade, it may have been a different result. At the least it would have been more intellectually honest.

Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 02:21 PM (m2CN7)

53 Forget Akin and Mourdock. The Democrats have fielded candidates with the morality of goats every damned cycle - murderers, rapists, tax cheats, drunks et al - and their base gets out and votes.

So Akin and Mourdock fucked up. Okay. But our base did not get out and support them no matter what they said.

That's the diff.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:21 PM (XkWWK)

54 This means most people want their taxes raised to pay for the abortion of somebody's grandchild in an unregulated Planned Parenthood facility.

Posted by: Huggy at January 22, 2013 02:21 PM (GxTMf)

55
I think we should abort all the kids and let all the old people die.


We could also take a second look at some of those Red State "middle-aged folks" and "youths"

Posted by: David Attenborough at January 22, 2013 02:21 PM (QKKT0)

56 Am I to continue peddling this line, even after it's been rubbished?





Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:12 PM (LCRYB)

You do what you want. I will continue to believe ANYTHING NBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN says is a lie.

Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:21 PM (53z96)

57 The answers always depend on how the question is asked and who is being asked. A poll like this is statistical noise, support for abortion always goes up and down.
I'm a big fan of the "Roe Effect" advanced by James Taranto over at the WSJ. Namely those who believe in abortion tend to get more abortions, those that don't get fewer abortions and have more kids. Over time, those who grow up in "pro-life" households will eventually outnumber those growing up in "pro-abortion" households. It doesn't have to be true in every case, only in aggregate. The younger population is more liberal than older groups on most social issues,except abortion. The trend lines for the pro-life position have been gradually getting stronger over the decades since 1973. It has taken a long time, and increases and decreases in fits and starts, but the trend is unmistakable.

Posted by: MM at January 22, 2013 02:22 PM (ZMhO7)

58 This is kinda interesting. Before the election, I saw a poll that showed the majority of Americans were opposed to abortion. Then I witnessed the final week of the presidential campaign, where my state was blanketed almost 24/7 with tv ads showing Romney wishing to 'stack the court' to overturn Roe vs Wade.

Either the Dems have better polling, American people lie, or some combination of the above. Or Dems naturally assume American people lie, because they are the biggest liars in the world and assume everyone is like them.

btw Ace: Brilliant thoughts on why changing age of marriage might effect opinion. I never would have thought of that.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at January 22, 2013 02:22 PM (feFL6)

59 I'm now wondering if Paul Ryan & Co. wouldn't have been better served, at least tactically, by the age-old political strategy called "lying."


Name one time a politician has lied about being less conservative in a campaign then how s/he actually votes in office. I cannot think of a single time.


We were having the Hill To Die On fight in the thread below and I know that at least some of what is driving my utter rage right now is that if we are going to lose anyway, lose standing for something. Right now, the emfuckening is occurring without there being any Strong Position, Clearly Announced. The House appears to be caving on the debt ceiling because. Because reasons from what I can tell.


I have been actively engaged in politics far, far longer than I care to admit. When it comes to fiscal matters, it's never the hill to die on. Well, the reckoning is at hand and the country is being destroyed and if we have to go down, for fuck's sake, go down swinging.

I love Eliot but I do not want to end whimpering. Yet here we are.


Do I dare and do I dare.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 02:22 PM (VtjlW)

60 But that's a lot of maybes, and that's all in the future. What we have
right now, in the present, with no maybes about it, is a public that's
shifted to the pro-choice position, shifted to the pro-amnesty position,
and shifted to the Bullshit and Bankruptcy position on budgetary
matters.


In other words, DOOOOOOOOM.

Posted by: joncelli at January 22, 2013 02:22 PM (RD7QR)

61 the silver lining is that the "mothers" are julias that would just be reproducing more julias to vote themselves my wallet.

Posted by: #6 at January 22, 2013 02:22 PM (KHo8t)

62 >>>The choice isn't just between 'crowd-pleasing but empty evasions' and 'being a a die-hard activist and an incompetent moron'. There's middle path for being explicit in what you stand for, but also selling it in a positive way. PR matters, but PR doesn't always add up to 'lie'. However, it's complicated, and frankly most politicians probably can't manage it.

well this is true, and I sort of meant to say so. But I don't think there's some Miracle Position that is all upside, either-- I think that a middle position will wind up trading off some stuff for other stuff. At some point you will have to choose between Clarity/Likelihood of Action and Vagueness/Likelihood of Being Elected. As you choose whenever you pick a television, a car, a house, a job, or a spouse.

I guess I am pushing the "dishonesty" thing both because I think it's sort of cynically funny but also because Truth Telling has become somewhat fetishized as a Good in and of itself.

Like, we're whipping ourselves up too much over politicians who deliver Truth. I don't know that we're sufficiently cognizant of the downside.

This isn't just criticism of others; this is self-criticism. I got whooped up by Truth with the Ryan Budget. I'm not sure that was a very smart play, now.



Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:22 PM (LCRYB)

63 I think part of this is the bandwagon effect. The mushy middle likes winners. When W was in, if they didn't have a position on something, they'd default with the prevailing political view. This beneifited pro-lifers. Now that Obama's the winner, they are going towards the liberal view. Same thing happened with latinos and blacks about gay marrige.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 02:22 PM (t06LC)

64 I think it's simpler than that. One of the few useful things to take from the polling truther stuff leading up to the election is that

A: very very very few people answer polls anymore.
B: the ones that do skew HEAVILY Democrat and especially progessive/liberal Democrat.

Thus, the polling that might have reflected a shift in soft support even 5 or 10 years ago probably only reflects a dramatic increase in the willingness of the strongly pro-choice third to make their feelings known to a pollster.

Posted by: argh at January 22, 2013 02:23 PM (8WC1Q)

65 And that's how Obama got elected-- by refusing to clarify, by talking on
both sides of his mouth, occasionally vaguely mentioning budgetary
discipline and entitlement reform while sending a very clear signal that
he did not intend to change a thing.

We need a better class of liars.

Democrats tend to be liberals who nod to centrist or conservative positions and then act like what they are.

Republicans tend to be centrists/liberals who nod to conservative positions and then act like what they are. Think George W. Bush, John McCain and Mittens Romney.

We need conservatives who will lie about being moderate and then act conservatively. That is a creature which does not seem to exist in the wild.

Posted by: DrewM. at January 22, 2013 02:23 PM (AR+tO)

66 That's a little to obscure for me today, you will have to explain your point.

Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:20 PM (53z96)

You are burying your head in the sand if you categorically reject all polling.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 22, 2013 02:23 PM (GsoHv)

67 can't even imagine how a person murdering little innocent babies could smile.

I can. They see people as liabilities, mere consumption units, rather than assets.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 22, 2013 02:23 PM (GlnE7)

68 A: very very very few people answer polls anymore.
B: the ones that do skew HEAVILY Democrat and especially progessive/liberal Democrat.


C. We count the answers we like.

Posted by: The MFM at January 22, 2013 02:24 PM (FcR7P)

69
these trends are really putting the GOP in a pickle

the GOP without Life, low taxes, small govt, and 2nd Amendment is...

the Democrat party.

Posted by: soothsayer's thought bubble at January 22, 2013 02:24 PM (hNqVf)

70 The party of death hold these people up as heroes.

4 Doctors who abort in the 3rd trimester.


http://tinyurl.com/a66gftp

Posted by: RWC at January 22, 2013 02:24 PM (fWAjv)

71 Posted by: argh at January 22, 2013 02:23 PM (8WC1Q

Isn't that what we told ourselves right up until the moment it was clear Romney got his ass kicked?

I think we need to lay of the "polling sucks" stuff for awhile. It's an easy way to kid ourselves.

Posted by: DrewM. at January 22, 2013 02:24 PM (AR+tO)

72 We're surrounded by their propaganda. They have entrenched themselves in every successful institution and spread their manure insidiously. It will always be a fight to get people to disagree with them.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at January 22, 2013 02:24 PM (46pA5)

73 We must advocate those policy positions and changes that move things in the correct general direction, to the extent that we can get away from it.

10 Advocate a sell-able position that nudges things to the right from where we are now

20 WIN

30 Implement that position

40 Consolidate that position as the new "moderate one"

50 GOTO 10

Posted by: The Political Hat at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (XvHmy)

74 I think it's simpler than that. One of the few useful things to take
from the polling truther stuff leading up to the election is that



A: very very very few people answer polls anymore.

B: the ones that do skew HEAVILY Democrat and especially progessive/liberal Democrat.



Yeah, that logic is how we predicted the Romney Landlside.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (QKKT0)

75 Latinos? Not in California....Only ones populating here.

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (9+ccr)

76 I can't say either is "right." I think they're actually both right. I think my real problem is with people who can't see that both sides are right, that all these things are true, that there are always unavoidable tradeoffs in any sort of decision-making like this, whether about tactics or substance.
Yes, taking the Strong, Uncompromising Position has a chance of moving the Overton Window in your direction, which the Weak-Tea Fudge Position does not.
But then, taking the Strong, Uncompromising Position can also move the Overton Window away from you, too.


I respect your position on this, Ace, and I appreciate the way yuo've laid it out. But for me, this is that "hill." I will not countenance a party that actively supports murder. It's also why - among other reasons - I have decided to oppose the death penalty as well.

Not that it matters to the GOP, since they're dead to me. But should a Constitutional Party arise from the ashes, I want it either to say "we do not support abortion" or "we do not support abortion, but it is a matter left to the states." Leave the active feeding of Moloch to the Democrats, and stop dipping our bread in the blood of the unborn.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (zF6Iw)

77 Maybe someone could use the aborted babies for target practice. Wouldn't that make the lefties heads explode.

Posted by: Emily Litella at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (ygAxO)

78 So we need a candidate that spouts pseudo-liberalism but ends his statements with "nudge-nudge, wink-wink."

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (XkWWK)

79 The poll reflects that a solid majority of Americans favor restricting abortion.

Posted by: Jay at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (3LaGb)

80 Guns are teh evul.

Scissors and suction devices are glorious.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 22, 2013 02:26 PM (UOM48)

81 I'm now wondering if Paul Ryan Co. wouldn't have been better
served, at least tactically, by the age-old political strategy called
"lying."


I want them to lie their asses off from now on.

When called on it I want them to do what Obama does, lie some more and then point out that they are obviously mistaken.

When confronted with statistics and facts which lay bare their lies, I want them to do what Obama does. Make. Shit. Up. and then act all indignant that you cannot understand their brilliance.

If truth is going to become a relative thing, then I want it relatively favoring my side.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 02:26 PM (sbV1u)

82 Here's the problem: There is NO upside in taking a weak, accommodating position in national elections. (there's a place for it in day-to-day business)

Example? The GOP selected John McCain in 2008, who is about as weak and accommodating to liberal positions as could be found. He was every Democrat's favorite Republican...until he tried to run for president. The Dem/Media alliance swung into action against him. Same story with Mittens. An even better man but weak and conciliatory on a host of issues.

You cannot make Democrats or the Media like you if you're a Republican. Not anymore. Better to be a strong conservative and to actively and articulately advocate for your position. That MIGHT have a payoff. Accommodating, will not. Can not. Not until we own our own media.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at January 22, 2013 02:26 PM (3Znbm)

83 Shots were fired Tuesday on the Lone Star College campus in north
Houston, MyFoxHouston.com reported. There were local reports of three
injuries.

(from gateway again)

Posted by: mallfly at January 22, 2013 02:26 PM (bJm7W)

84 Sigh.

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 02:27 PM (5H6zj)

85 No, what we told ourselves was that the heavily Democratic skew of the polling meant that Democrats were all-talk, just talking about how they were going to vote for Obama to pollsters. We didn't believe they'd actually go do it.

Posted by: argh at January 22, 2013 02:27 PM (8WC1Q)

86 We need conservatives who will lie about being moderate and then act conservatively. That is a creature which does not seem to exist in the wild.
Posted by: DrewM. at January 22, 2013 02:23 PM (AR+tO)



Let us all focus on the important thing. What you're saying is that I'm right. Because me being right is the important thing here.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 02:27 PM (VtjlW)

87 73 Posted by: The Political Hat at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (XvHmy)


The electorate perceives of moving to the right as "no fun of any kind" and "get off your ass and work." The left's message is "it's not your fault" and "you deserve free shit and we'll get it for you."

How do we get around that?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:27 PM (XkWWK)

88 Meanwhile in NY, they just aren't killing enough babies before 24 weeks and want to extend the deadline for women to obtain abortions birth control.

Posted by: huerfano at January 22, 2013 02:27 PM (bAGA/)

89
From today's Wall Street Journal:
Some 31% of respondents in the poll said abortion should always be legal, and 9% believed it should be illegal without any exceptions. Between those two opinions are the 23% who thought it should be legal most of the time, but with some exceptions, and the 35% who felt it should be illegal except in circumstances of rape, incest and to save a woman's life.

Posted by: Jay at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (3LaGb)

90 I got whooped up by Truth with the Ryan Budget. I'm not sure that was a very smart play, now.

The bulk of the public truly wants to be lied to, and will go to great lengths internally justifying a comforting lie if it avoids having to make difficult decisions.

Its all good...

...until it goes bad.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (GlnE7)

91 The reason I said 'one of the few useful things' is that the data on response rates is real. They are at record low levels (single digit).

Posted by: argh at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (8WC1Q)

92 65We need conservatives who will lie about being moderate and then act conservatively. That is a creature which does not seem to exist in the wild.
Posted by: DrewM. at January 22, 2013 02:23 PM (AR+tO)


THIS!!!....but...of course they don't exist.

The kind of person with a good enough head on his shoulders to advocate good policies, instead of ones that will enrich his cronies and ensure his reelection, probably isn't the kind of person who lies convincingly.

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (Y5I9o)

93 We were having the Hill To Die On fight in the thread below and I know
that at least some of what is driving my utter rage right now is that if
we are going to lose anyway, lose standing for something. Right now,
the emfuckening is occurring without there being any Strong Position,
Clearly Announced. The House appears to be caving on the debt ceiling
because. Because reasons from what I can tell.





THIS. If I'm going to lose, I'd prefer to lose fighting.




We need conservatives who will lie about being
moderate and then act conservatively. That is a creature which does not
seem to exist in the wild.


Posted by: DrewM. at January 22, 2013 02:23 PM (AR+tO)


IMO, it's because they have, as a part of their Conservative make up, an aversion to lying. They believe in Good, in Right, in saying what you mean and meaning what you say.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (da5Wo)

94 IMO, Libertarians and such already picked their hill to die on, and it was when they rejected social conservatives largely over abortion. Large blocs of social cons don't vote because they have 1-3 issues that cause them to vote - and the current GOP rejects all of them.
What would, oh, the 2 million Traditionalist Catholic votes have done last election? They voted in record *low* numbers, per Pew.
Being 'socially liberal' is a liberal position; being laissez-faire is a liberal position. Don't be surprised that conservatives don't vote for liberal positions.

Posted by: Aquinas Dad at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (lcWKQ)

95 I used to be pro-life until I realized they're killing future leeches for the most part. One more vote I won't have to worry about in 18 years. Put them on every corner in every major city. I've stopped caring about other people.....my taxes care for them now....Let it Burn...I'm not out there attending Pro-choice rallies but what the hell...let's give them what the want...along with free cigarettes, pork rinds and marijuana.

Posted by: YaHump at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (cenWS)

96 53 see 51

Posted by: DAve at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (XDC0v)

97 The "truth" strategy, without charisma to make it go down easier, is a sure loser.

I love the Paul Ryan poster with "Math" on the title, but the low information voters said "what?"

Posted by: PJ at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (ZWaLo)

98 Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (zF6Iw)

That is consistent if one assumes that all state-sanctioned killing is murder.

I too believe that abortion is wrong, but I see no contradiction in my qualified support of the death penalty.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (GsoHv)

99 roe vs wade summation:

To summarize and to repeat:

1. A state criminal abortion statute of the current
Texas type, that excepts from criminality only a lifesaving procedure on
behalf of the mother, without regard to pregnancy stage and without
recognition of the other interests involved, is violative of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

(a) For the stage prior to approximately the end of
the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be
left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending
physician.

(b) For the stage subsequent to approximately the
end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the
health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion
procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health.

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life [p165]
may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where
it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation
of the life or health of the mother.


Posted by: mallfly at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (bJm7W)

100 I got whooped up by Truth with the Ryan Budget.

If it makes you feel better, Ace, Bambi didn't win because of the Ryan budget. 90% of Bambi voters have no idea what the Ryan budget is.

That's important when you're thinking about this stuff.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (46pA5)

101 I can't even imagine how a person murdering little innocent babies could smile.

I can. They see people as liabilities, mere consumption units, rather than assets.


It makes you wonder what the hardcore Left actually sees as optimal on Earth. North America left to nature, except for Manhattan? And lots of colorful, exotically-dressed "indigenous" brown people left to stoke the Manhattanites' feelings of superiority and condescending paternalism?

I guess...

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (QKKT0)

102 The country is full of stupid people with no concept of personal responsibility. Not surprised.

Posted by: Adam at January 22, 2013 02:29 PM (/YJYi)

103 >well this is true, and I sort of meant to say so. But I don't think there's some Miracle Position that is all upside, either-- I think that a middle position will wind up trading off some stuff for other stuff. At some point you will have to choose between Clarity/Likelihood of Action and Vagueness/Likelihood of Being Elected. As you choose whenever you pick a television, a car, a house, a job, or a spouse.

Fair enough. The way I'd put it is that conservatives must, absolutely must, focus more on selling their ideas - and what's more, selling them outside of a formal election. And also, selling them well.

I think you're right when you talk about making 'Truth!' into some kind of fetish, and I'd add that that's probably where the biggest problems come in: people mistake 'saying something obnoxious that will turn a lot of people off' for 'truth'. Liberals have not gained ground by argument in most cases - they've gained it by avoiding argument and focusing on emotion, sympathy and the like.

Like it or not, I think we have to focus on the same.

Posted by: Crude at January 22, 2013 02:29 PM (P0eiX)

104 72 We're surrounded by their propaganda. They have entrenched themselves in every successful institution and spread their manure insidiously. It will always be a fight to get people to disagree with them.
Posted by: The Mega Independent at January 22, 2013 02:24 PM (46pA5)

And why is that? What is the reason for this phenomena? Don't we have people (about half the population)? Are we more noble to not wield our power inappropriately? Is it just because liberalism has been revolutionary to our body politic and we are merely reactionary? Seriously any ideas?

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 02:29 PM (t06LC)

105 My only concern with abortion is who's paying for it. I find it debase and immoral, but don't want them ramming their lifestyle down my throat any more than I want theirs rammed down mine. Just stop subsidizing planned parenthood and I'll be happy.

Posted by: Andrew at January 22, 2013 02:29 PM (HS3dy)

106 It worked for Obama. Why shouldn't it work for us? We can lie too. I know we can lie. I've lied before. I think I'm sort of good at it.


___________________________


The Romney MIT speech.

I let you get away with the lack of context on that.

Posted by: tasker at January 22, 2013 02:29 PM (r2PLg)

107 Well thank God we lost the house then....

oh wait!

Divorce.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:29 PM (LRFds)

108 One of the most satisfying beatdowns of a liberal I've had was with a pro choice lady who , until I pointed it out, was clueless that her advocacy for no-kill dog/cat shelters was sort of contradictory. Or as I put it to her, disgusting.

Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 02:29 PM (m2CN7)

109 zzz

Posted by: Barry at January 22, 2013 02:29 PM (FbY/t)

110 You are burying your head in the sand if you categorically reject all polling.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 22, 2013 02:23 PM (GsoHv)

Ah grasshopper, you did not read carefully. I did jot say ALL polling. I said those done by the news organizations. Don't trust Gallop either.

Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:30 PM (53z96)

111 Isn't it strange that all obamas ducks seem to be lining up.... Everyone loves abortion now, hates guns, loves welfare and higher taxes on the "rich", and despises all Conservatives.... Funny how that happened...

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at January 22, 2013 02:30 PM (9+ccr)

112 The polls are rubbish because:

(1) 40% polled believe Roe was about segregation or some other issue, and

(2) the polls routinely misrepresent the holding of Roe, asserting that it only permits abortion in the first three months.

Posted by: Average Joe at January 22, 2013 02:30 PM (oYXGc)

113 Dead babies are cool again.

Yeah, you can use the collegian or something as a face cream.

Posted by: Noma somebody at January 22, 2013 02:18 PM (wR+pz)


I usually prefer Tweens, but hey, whatever distracts me from the devils barbed cock sodomizing my rotting corpse...

Posted by: Jimmy Saville at January 22, 2013 02:31 PM (XvHmy)

114 No, Drew, they pretend to be prolife, then they backslide That's the way it works, There is no hill that we are not willing to give up, whereas there is no hill, they aren't willing to storm, the truth isn't an obstacle,

Posted by: cardinal fang at January 22, 2013 02:31 PM (Jsiw/)

115 When abortion is accepted as a valid form of birth control you know your culture is dead

And this is coming from a pro-choice dem
Cool huh?

Posted by: Navycopjoe at January 22, 2013 02:31 PM (yZxXI)

116 One of the most satisfying beatdowns of a liberal I've had was with a
pro choice lady who , until I pointed it out, was clueless that her
advocacy for no-kill dog/cat shelters was sort of contradictory.


Cognitive dissonance. How the fuck does it work?

Posted by: EC at January 22, 2013 02:31 PM (GQ8sn)

117 Of course there's a pro-abortion majority. The progressive death cult has been assaulting the culture for decades.

40 years after Roe v. Wade, there's been 55 million kids slaughtered by abortion.

This disproportionately affects minorities, which means Margaret Sanger is smiling in Hell right next to Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, and Mao Tse Tung.

Posted by: Naqamel at January 22, 2013 02:31 PM (UMwMT)

118 Ace if the nation is so different that we cannot agree on the snactity of life, and one side gets to hide the actions of its candidate against closet babies.

Never mind this event has been manipulated to and for by a coalition that I loathe in an increasing frequency and I feel more anger at than I am feeling towards Al Qaeda, which is exactly what the left said as the ashes cooled from 9/11.

Devolve power to the states, or end the union.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:31 PM (LRFds)

119 Bottom line until there is a major overhaul of adoption law in this country, if you can't take care of yourself then you probably can't take care of a baby. That goes for a handoff to the "father" as well.

Posted by: NCKate at January 22, 2013 02:31 PM (Pf/z7)

120 Jesse Jackson was openly, stridently pro-life through the 70s--until he started thinking about either making a run for the Dem POTUS nomination or at least being a Player-Kingmaker for the Dems


did a 180, he did: Stopped talking about 'Black genocide' and came out for Roe.

Posted by: John Smith at January 22, 2013 02:32 PM (Dll6b)

121 Instead of spending a billion dollars trying to win an election, we ought to go to these voters one-by-one and listen to thier concerns and than persuade them why out solutions will give them and their country a better future.

Posted by: Pollyanna Cat at January 22, 2013 02:32 PM (UypUQ)

122 >>>Look, those of us who are pro-life cannot even effectively make the case anymore to ban the practice of infanticide (a.k.a. "Partial Birth Abortion"), and even the "Born Alive Infant Protection Act" is a struggle to get passed in many states.

>>>Yet, the GOP sends-out statewide candidates who wax moronically about "legitimate rape" and whatnot - and we are amazed that the pro-life position is "losing ground" among the American Sheeple.

Well that's what I found strange in these cases. The pro-lifers have not made their case -- have not won the day -- on the easy, lay-up stuff, but now they're chasing the most difficult stuff?

This is like asking for anal before the girl's even kissed you. Things have an order.*

* I remember reading as a kid that girls thought guys were "fast" and "too handsy" not based on what they touched or how fast they actually touched them, but according to whether or not they went in the proper order. You know, the order of the bases. Guys who went in the proper order could actually go pretty fast without upsetting or alarming the girl.

I figure that's because at each "base" there's a comfort level, and it permits the girl to decide (without being explicitly asked) whether she's okay with that or if she's going to want you to return to the last base. A lower-pressure sort of decision than, as John Cleese would say, "rushing straight for the clitoris."

And I'm talking about this at length not because I'm a perv but because I think it has a great deal in common with politics. What we're talking about is "incrementalism" -- go a little further, let the public get used to that, don't push so fast they become alarmed and pull back. Take the temperature at that new redoubt, then advance from there.

Liberals succeed because of lying and incrementalism. No one would buy their agenda as a whole -- so they advance it bit by bit, insidiously.

But the public doesn't recoil, because at each step it has some time to adjust to the new situation.

I think incrementalism is a fundamentally powerful method of changing policy -- and revolutionary stuff, sharp breaks with current practice, is a fundamentally weak one, usually resulting in defeats.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (LCRYB)

123 77 Maybe someone could use the aborted babies for target practice. Wouldn't that make the lefties heads explode.
Posted by: Emily Litella at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (ygAxO)


I always make it a point to order veal whenever I'm at dinner with lefties. I explain "hey, I prefer calf fetuses but infant cows are all they offer."

Dead silence ensues...

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (XkWWK)

124 Todd Akin and Richard Mourdoch, of course, did not offer such evasions, but instead proudly offered their true convictions about the matter.

In an INCREDIBLY CLODDISH MANNER.

"Incredibly Cloddish" does not play well with the folks at home- especially when spun as "patriarchal" and "misogynistic" by the media.

Posted by: Nighthawk at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (RSqz2)

125 Any poll that disagrees with my assumptions is bullshit!

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (+lsX1)

126 It makes you wonder what the hardcore Left actually sees as optimal on Earth.


Rainbow Six was a work of non-fiction in its description of what the eco-terrorists wanted.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (VtjlW)

127 Ace if we are to lie we should lie on matters of honor, restraint, and ethics and feed the poor crumbs compared to promise like Ogabe.

In that spirit I am welcoming you to join me ion changing the GOP's name to "FREE SHIT FOR ALL" Party.

30,000 buck checks for the poor down to 3 dollar checks for the rich but for all! for all!

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (LRFds)

128
BTW, I'm so glad my daughter is over her
fascination with that little Justin Beiber twit. His own mother admits
to choosing not to abort him because of Christianity, but he has to
distance himself from it. I'm relatively certain he would have chosen to
kill himself.

Which begs the question, why don't all these people who think
abortion is so great go and have a retroactive one on themselves? Cells
are cells, right?

Posted by: Justamom of the LiB camp at January 22, 2013 02:15 PM (Sptt

Damage control and distancing oneself from one's mother stating "I didn't kill my baby because I'm a Christian"?

...this land is done for.

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (Gdxt9)

129 Devolve power to the states, or end the union.
Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:31 PM (LRFds)

Amendment 10. sven might be on to something here.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (t06LC)

130 The party of death hold these people up as heroes.


4 Doctors who abort in the 3rd trimester.


http://tinyurl.com/a66gftp


Posted by: RWC at January 22, 2013 02:24 PM



Ghouls.

Posted by: huerfano at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (bAGA/)

131 >>>You do what you want. I will continue to believe ANYTHING NBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN says is a lie.

Then you are going to stumble the rest of your entire life, buffeted back and forth by one nasty surprise after another.

Only a complete and utter fool brags about how much cotton he has proudly stuffed into his ears.

Posted by: Jeff B. at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (h9J9H)

132 As an ideologue, I wanted the Ryan Budget and I wanted other politicians to have to take a position on it, so that, if we came to power, we'd have a genuine mandate for it, and the public would have given its blessing (indirectly), and we'd get some actual results for a change.

But as a political actor, I think maybe I should have preferred a go-slow, fudge-it-up, more... "sensitive" approach to the issue. (And by "sensitive" I mean: Dishonest.)

__________________________________

There is a difference between lying and being specific.

As soon as Ryan gave them a plan--he gave up specifics--and hypotheticals--what could be done in the future.

That's a tactical mistake.

In debate--which is politics it is always easier to go negative and attack.

What Republicans need to do is stay in the weeds when it comes to specifics--something like that.

Posted by: tasker at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (r2PLg)

133 126 Alex The Chick,

yes, yes it was.....

and it is why I want you at my side ma'am.


Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (LRFds)

134
Here's something that always made me scratch my noggin. If I say to a pro-abortion person that they should have been aborted they get offended. They also get offended if I say black (or white) babies should be aborted.

Why should they care?

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (p/cQy)

135 Isn't it strange that all obamas ducks seem to be lining up.... Everyone loves abortion now, hates guns, loves welfare and higher taxes on the "rich", and despises all Conservatives.... Funny how that happened...

Almost as if they all have a gin-soaked tear running down their faces as Big Brother appears on the telescreen.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (feFL6)

136 10 Advocate a sell-able position that nudges things to the right from where we are now



20 WIN



30 Implement that position



40 Consolidate that position as the new "moderate one"



50 GOTO 10



Posted by: The Political Hat at January 22, 2013 02:25 PM (XvHmy)


Yes! A complete ban on abortion is an impossible thing to sell in today's marketplace of ideas. But you might be able to sell the idea of "no Federal funding" for abortions.
Incrementalism, folks. The Nanny State wasn't built in a day, and it won't be torn down in a day. Chip away at it. Set achievable goals, and when you win one, move on to the next achievable goal.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (673KB)

137 I usually stay out of abortion threads. They tend to get to emotional.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 22, 2013 02:35 PM (9Bj8R)

138 in the post-WWII USSR ( where most doctors were womyn ) , the average Soviet woman had 2 - 3 abortions; 4 -5 was not uncommon.


we defeated our enemy, but have become him...

Posted by: John Smith at January 22, 2013 02:35 PM (Dll6b)

139 Only a complete and utter fool brags about how much cotton he has proudly stuffed into his ears.


Posted by: Jeff B. at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (h9J9H)

I think I said this to you once before
Fuckoff.

Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (53z96)

140 The pro-choice position has held the edge for years, Ace.

You cannot count on answers to these questions on polls.

Abortion is a losing position from the pro-life side.

Here's how it looks to the general public:

If you are pro-choice, you are for the enlightened attitude of letting the mother decide..

If you are pro-life, you are considered to be forcing your religious/moral views on people. You cannot win..

I cannot believe abortion is even an issue any longer.. it's been 40 years since Roe v. Wade decided you cannot have laws preventing abortions. The GOP needs to settle for bans on late-term abortions and simply move on.. it is a position of "stupid old white men and religious nuts" as far as many Americans and most young people are concerned. Move on.

I am personally against abortion. But it's really none of my business what someone else does - it is between a woman and her doctor. And God can sort it out later.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (f9c2L)

141 >> I think, by the way, that the GOP largely pursued the Strong Position, Clearly Announced strategy with regard to budget and entitlements. And let me say that I favored this tactic, and I favored the substance of what was being pursued. I was (and remain) a fan of the Ryan Plan.

This is where "execution risk" came into play. You can have the exact right strategy (a fact that will only be known in hindsight) but still botch the execution so badly that you get a bad result ... possibly even a worse result than not having pursued the strategy at all.

Posted by: Andy at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (C/NnJ)

142 Ace discusses touching girls because of perviness and intellectual analogies but mostly because of perviness.

Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (m2CN7)

143 I too believe that abortion is wrong, but I see no contradiction in my qualified support of the death penalty.

Agreed.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (jZpAK)

144 The reason we have this problem at all is that people have given DC too much power. Everything is decided on the national level now. When that happens, then the regions of this country will always clash.

The states must take their power back. Even if it means giving the finger to congress and/or the SCOTUS. We have to or the Constitution will be lost forever.

Posted by: Soona at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (N2KVu)

145 122 Liberals succeed because of lying and incrementalism. No one would buy their agenda as a whole -- so they advance it bit by bit, insidiously.

But the public doesn't recoil, because at each step it has some time to adjust to the new situation.

I think incrementalism is a fundamentally powerful method of changing policy -- and revolutionary stuff, sharp breaks with current practice, is a fundamentally weak one, usually resulting in defeats.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (LCRYB)


Ace:

Rush discussed this a week or so ago when he mentioned an article in the UK Guardian about psychiatrists now wanting to decriminalize pedophilia by claiming it as a sexual orientation. He said (paraphrasing) "what was your initial reaction years ago when you heard people advocating for gay marriage? Now imagine in the not too distant future when the left will agitate for changing pedophilia from a heinous crime to an accepted sexual orientation."

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (XkWWK)

146
It never occurs to our side that the best course of action is to muck up the Democrat.

We're always looking for the perfect candidate who says all the right things. Democrats are smarter. They often run shitty candidates but make up for it by dusting up the Republican.

We blew a great opportunity in PA by not reminding the Democrat women in PA what a staunch ANTI ABORTION MAN Casey is.

We don't play politics like that, though. And that's why Democrats win.

Posted by: soothsayer's thought bubble at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (LVtr+)

147 Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:30 PM (53z96)

Grasshopper?

Okay, I laughed.

But rejecting polls done by the media is short-sighted. Sure, many of them are biased, but it is data to be interpreted, not rejected out of hand.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 22, 2013 02:37 PM (GsoHv)

148 In an INCREDIBLY CLODDISH MANNER.

"Incredibly
Cloddish" does not play well with the folks at home- especially when
spun as "patriarchal" and "misogynistic" by the media.

Posted by: Nighthawk at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (RSqz2)




Biden: Wait till you see my 2016 campaign. But I'll get away with it because of the D after my name

Posted by: TheQuietMan at January 22, 2013 02:37 PM (1Jaio)

149
If you are conservative, then you have to get out and talk to people about why.
I have lived in Latin America practically all my adult life and I can tell you that many Latins love the cradle to grave take care of me position. They also have no problem with putting the Catholic church in its place. Also, being conservative means something entirely different to them, and a lot of it not good.
So anybody who thinks that Latins are naturally conservative, think again. Why do you think the Democrats want them so badly? It means more votes for them.
In the end, you win over Latins in the same way you win over anybody else. You have to explain that people live by ideas, and conservative ideas are better, and why. Something which Republicans do not do.
I am sorry, but I think one reason we are in such bad shape is because people buy into this we do not talk about politics and religion, and so the Democrats run away with the country.
Did I mention that I can not stand Democrats? Well, I am getting there with the Republicans too.

Posted by: Harry at January 22, 2013 02:37 PM (ib4tw)

150 wtf?
I've never heard of Lone Star College
And much of my family's from Houston.

Posted by: TexasJew at January 22, 2013 02:37 PM (y0yTH)

151 I didn't read the post; was it the 20,000 word review of Xanadu that ace threatened us withif we didn't quit bitching about his movie reviews?

Posted by: Larsen E. Whipsnade at January 22, 2013 02:38 PM (6BgmB)

152 I would like to see a poll on whether any of these "low information" (wink wink) voters know the definition of partial birth abortion, and if they do, whether they support THAT choice as opposed to shooting kids once they've left the womb.

Posted by: Sphynx at January 22, 2013 02:38 PM (OZmbA)

153 138 we defeated our enemy, but have become him...
Posted by: John Smith at January 22, 2013 02:35 PM (Dll6b)


Nope. They invaded us at least since the 30's and used our freedoms and institutions against us. I hate their guts but you have to give the devil his due.

They have all but won, USSR or no USSR.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:38 PM (XkWWK)

154 >>if the polls were wrong then they swore in the wrong Commander in Chief.


Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:13 PM (LCRYB)

Now there's an interesting topic for a thread.

Posted by: ontherocks at January 22, 2013 02:38 PM (aZ6ew)

155 I too believe that abortion is wrong, but I see no contradiction in my qualified support of the death penalty.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 22, 2013 02:28 PM (GsoHv)


I don't have the time to go into it now, CBD, but I have read enough wrongly-convicted cases to know that there have been many innocent people sacrificed to the death penalty. I'm actually out of step with the Church on this, as She supports the death penalty, but only for the gravest ofcrimes.

Fuck this. I'm going back to my Hollywood stories. At least they don't leave me wanting to throw down a .357 shooter.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (zF6Iw)

156
Babies are disposable until you file the Social Security papers. It's, like, in the Bible, right?

Posted by: Jaws at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (4I3Uo)

157 @136

Its almost if this "slippery slope" agument I always hear is invalid is indeed the way most things work....

Maybe there is something to that.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (t06LC)

158 Is it just because liberalism has been revolutionary to our body politic and we are merely reactionary? Seriously any ideas?

You and I had this talk a couple of years back, believe it or not.

The reason is because they are activists by nature, and many of their lives revolve around, and are built around, their ideology. They are taught by people influential to them to lie because "changing the world" is all that matters.

They are taught that their desire to "change the world" makes them important and better than others. It gives them a reason for the feeling of superiority they've otherwise never been able to place (it's really based on unconscious inferiority).

We're fighting a cult.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (46pA5)

159 ONLINE Lone Star College

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (MhA4j)

160 I have had quite a few debates with liberals on the issue of guns and laws. As predicted the charge "It's for the children" comes out and I ask the question about 1 million babies aborted each year - Don't they have a right to our protection? Apparently not. The liberal mindset cannot be tolerated on a full stomach.

Posted by: Cheri at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (G+Wff)

161 Upthread--


FLAG--

Unnecessary Roughness!!

Posted by: tasker at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (r2PLg)

162 I highlighted Latinos to rebut this enduring myth that Latinos are
"naturally conservative" because of their "religious and family values"
or whatnot.


Indeed, the pleasant fiction of all those "naturally conservative" Latinos, brought to us by the likes of Bush 43, Rove, McCain, Romney, and most of the people in the GOP who claim to know what they're talking about.

Hell, some of the biggest I WANT MY GUBERMINT CHEEZE AND I WANT IT NOW members of the FSA Footsoldier Cadre that I know, including some in my extended family, are precisely what you might call "regular church goers". And Catholics.

Posted by: DocJ at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (A5uiv)

163
Let's make sure a few things are clear...

1) Abortion is not an issue that the Tea Party cares about.

2) 70% of the country (probably much more) have no fucking idea what Roe v Wade is. With some prompting, most people will know it has something to do with abortion, but that's about it.

3) Until the politically active people on the right start to hold their representatives accountable to vote conservatively, elected officials will always bend to left - it's the easiest path.

Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 02:40 PM (ZDsRL)

164 So we need to create the *wink wink nudge nudge* Republican Party. The one that has "embraced" all the democrat social positions and has a fluttering toward fiscal sanity... but not so much that the FSA will stop getting their stuff. Then once we get them elected they come out of the closet, so to speak, and start with legislation that is so-con and fis-con. If we can get enough of these people to run throughout the US in each State and keep their conservatism under wraps, we can take over the wooorrrllldddd!!!!!!

Good gravy, it sounds conspiracy theorist, but when working with the LIV you just need to be a rock star for a little while and once you have them hooked you apparently can do no wrong.

Posted by: Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain at January 22, 2013 02:40 PM (bj+Nc)

165 On the abortion issue nothing will change until the question is out of federal hands.

On states rights and taxes I think if the states collected all taxes and the feds had to come begging to the state houses for their cut it would likely solve the budget problem.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at January 22, 2013 02:40 PM (81UWZ)

166 So what movie was this a review for?

Posted by: Ian S. at January 22, 2013 02:40 PM (B/VB5)

167 They should just go ahead and bring out the brass bull and publicly worship their god, Molech. Abortion, just like globull climate change is a religion to them. With Obama's inauguration, the gloves are going to come off, and nothing is going to be sacred to these people.There will be very little opposition (outside of social media) to their agenda. The Republican Party will not stand upagainst this. It really makes me ashamed to be a registered Republican.

Posted by: DaveinNC at January 22, 2013 02:40 PM (boNGU)

168 I am very pro-abortion. Humans are a plague, particularly ones from large Republican families in Southern states, or icky brown people in the Third World we cannot help because the Wall Street Machine and the "international bankers" steal the money that could help them. These dollars are instead spent on illegal wars against those same brown people.

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein from Brattleboro, VT at January 22, 2013 02:40 PM (jCQ+I)

169 possibly even a worse result than not having pursued the strategy at all.

Posted by: Andy at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (C/NnJ)

Like sitting on the ball with 31 seconds left, 2 time outs, and a $20 million/year QB. Fuck..

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 22, 2013 02:41 PM (p/cQy)

170
Lying incrementalism seems particularly effective with complacent, indoctrinated, sloth like, spoiled, entitled individuals who prefer rhetoric and slogans over thought and discipline in order to remain comfortable in their life choices.

Posted by: Justamom of the LiB camp at January 22, 2013 02:41 PM (Sptt8)

171 Liberals succeed because of lying and
incrementalism. No one would buy their agenda as a whole -- so they
advance it bit by bit, insidiously.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (LCRYB)

Exactly.

Just the tip....I promise!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at January 22, 2013 02:41 PM (GsoHv)

172 I'll bet my Roe supporters assume its overturn will mean abortion automatically becomes illegal across the country.

Posted by: Pollyanna Cat at January 22, 2013 02:41 PM (UypUQ)

173 The poll could not possibly be right. Per Linda Chavez at National Review, all lateeenos are right wing conservatives waiting to join the Federalist Society.

Posted by: ejo at January 22, 2013 02:41 PM (GXvSO)

174 "the pro-choice position is going to increase, because for this cohort
unplanned pregnancy is a scary thing, and they want an Out, whatever the
philosophical or moral implications might be."

well, yeah. i understand the other side of this issue the best i can. it's just that that last part is a big one.

while i recognize the difficulty of getting a certain majority on the Court (though it is not impossible,) this to me is a much more deeply felt position than, say, whether top-bracket tax rates go up (that's not to say i think the latter is good) and so i kinda resent the flippant "drop the issue" stance from some pundits.

Posted by: JDP at January 22, 2013 02:41 PM (60GaT)

175 Rush discussed this a week or so ago when he mentioned an article in the UK Guardian about psychiatrists now wanting to decriminalize pedophilia by claiming it as a sexual orientation. He said (paraphrasing) "what was your initial reaction years ago when you heard people advocating for gay marriage? Now imagine in the not too distant future when the left will agitate for changing pedophilia from a heinous crime to an accepted sexual orientation."

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (XkWWK)


A little mood music?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jItz-uNjoZA

Posted by: Jimmy Saville at January 22, 2013 02:41 PM (XvHmy)

176 >>I think incrementalism is a fundamentally powerful method of
changing policy -- and revolutionary stuff, sharp breaks with current
practice, is a fundamentally weak one, usually resulting in defeats.


Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (LCRYB)



Enhanced dramatically when you also dictate the MFM narrative nonstop.

Posted by: ontherocks at January 22, 2013 02:41 PM (aZ6ew)

177 yes, yes it was.....

and it is why I want you at my side ma'am.


Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (LRFds)



A sentiment which is returned.


Randomly, I really do want pie.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 02:42 PM (VtjlW)

178 90% of voters could not tell you what the current state of the law is.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 22, 2013 02:42 PM (evdj2)

179 Also, the shelving of babies that have survived an abortion. Do liberals know that these poor little beings are left to die of dehydration and no nourishment? Their president thinks it is just dandy. After all, why should a woman be punished with a baby??!!

Posted by: Cheri at January 22, 2013 02:42 PM (G+Wff)

180 If NBC did a poll on Elvis right now 90% would say they have seen Elvis at the local diner in the past 6 months.

Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (53z96)

181 The media is lying about these polls. It's pretty obvious because if you look at earlier polls reported by the media they were a lot more favorable to my notions. Those idiots in the media are so transparent.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (+lsX1)

182 First, unplanned pregnancy is a major lifestyle change for the unmarried. For the married, and especially those who are married and already have some kids, it may be a lifestyle change and a major inconvenience, but it's usually not scary. As fewer and fewer people get married (and people get married at an older age) the pro-choice position is going to increase, because for this cohort unplanned pregnancy is a scary thing, and they want an Out, whatever the philosophical or moral implications might be.

Unmarried and knocked up. No one has more impact on America today than these fine citizens.

If we every produce that Trillion dollar coin it's going to feature Betty Freidan's lovely face on front, and a twenty-something chick peeing on a pregnacy stick on the back.

Posted by: CJ at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (9KqcB)

183 Here's something that always made me scratch my noggin. If I say to a pro-abortion person that they should have been aborted they get offended. They also get offended if I say black (or white) babies should be aborted.

Why should they care?


I quit caring if I offend people. Especially if they are a hypocrite.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (jZpAK)

184 I am personally against abortion. But it's really none of my business what someone else does - it is between a woman and her doctor. And God can sort it out later.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 22, 2013 02:36 PM (f9c2L)

If you saw a child about to be hit by a car would you save it or let god sort it out. You either believe in the sanctity of life or you don't. Don't let Relitivism or rationalization cloud what you know to be true. Abortion is murder.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. http://tinyurl.com/ahc8poj at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (l86i3)

185 I'm confused now. What does the R party stand for? Seems they've run screaming from fiscal cons, border enforcement and now socons need to stfu and stfd.

What do they stand for? Is it writted down somewhere?

Posted by: Invictus at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (OQpzc)

186 I don't have the time to go into it now, CBD, but I have read enough wrongly-convicted cases to know that there have been many innocent people sacrificed to the death penalty. I'm actually out of step with the Church on this, as She supports the death penalty, but only for the gravest ofcrimes. Fuck this. I'm going back to my Hollywood stories. At least they don't leave me wanting to throw down a .357 shooter.
Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (zF6Iw)

Sorry but I believe you would not be able to name one in our generation. There are doubts but no hard evidence.On the other hand, there are at least 800 people in prison now for homicide that were previously released from prison for homicide. That is at least 800 people that could have been saved by applying the death penalty.

Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (m2CN7)

187 That i see value in such a cynical approach to the future of our nation just makes me want to weep.
In the most masculine heterosexual unpussyish way possible, naturally.

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at January 22, 2013 02:44 PM (SO2Q8)

188 @158

I vaugely remember that. Was it during the Obamacare kerfuffle?

I think you are correct. I would also add they have a lot in common with cargo cults in general.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 02:44 PM (t06LC)

189 Nope. They invaded us at least since the 30's and
used our freedoms and institutions against us. I hate their guts but
you have to give the devil his due.



They have all but won, USSR or no USSR.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 22, 2013 02:38 PM (XkWWK)



Yes, they have. We stopped them militarily but the fellow travelers destroyed us from within culturally

Posted by: TheQuietMan at January 22, 2013 02:44 PM (1Jaio)

190 The media is lying about these polls. It's pretty
obvious because if you look at earlier polls reported by the media they
were a lot more favorable to my notions. Those idiots in the media are
so transparent.


Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (+lsX1)

You know how you can tell when the MFM is lying? The same way when you watch Obama, because they are the SAME.

Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:44 PM (53z96)

191 That i see value in such a cynical approach to the future of our nation just makes me want to weep. In the most masculine heterosexual unpussyish way possible, naturally.
Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at January 22, 2013 02:44 PM (SO2Q

Me too. Need a shoulder?

Posted by: John Boehner at January 22, 2013 02:44 PM (t06LC)

192 What we're talking about is "incrementalism" -- go a little further, let the public get used to that, don't push so fast they become alarmed and pull back. Take the temperature at that new redoubt, then advance from there

Word.

Posted by: Stephen Harper at January 22, 2013 02:45 PM (BrQrN)

193 How many of those surveyed understand that overturning Roe wouldn't eliminate legal abortions in most states?

Posted by: spongeworthy at January 22, 2013 02:45 PM (r5w1L)

194 Ace,
NBC polling is not the most accurate nor without comparing questions to others which show different results can you make any assertion based on one datapoint. Currently doing some research regarding conscience laws so do not really believe this is a particularly significant poll. It is actually contrary to previous polling trends so should be viewed with suspicion.

Posted by: wg at January 22, 2013 02:45 PM (pddwo)

195 129 Jollyroger,

damn skippy...

on the federal level we should be as stupid as the democrats, and at the state level fight for the assertion of nullification.

overload the feds with so much onerous cotton candy bullshit they can't meet their needs versus idiot nation's wants.

Smart states will want to bolt especially when giggles gives in and rewards bad actors like Cali with a bailout.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:45 PM (LRFds)

196 @189

Actually we won by bankrupting them, their progeny is returning the favor.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 02:45 PM (t06LC)

197 I once had a discussion with a middle aged pro-abortion woman, or attempted to have one anyway. She shut it down with the statement I'm pro-choice and I don't want to think about it. This is your typical liberal voter. It's not a position, it's a shibboleth.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 22, 2013 02:45 PM (evdj2)

198
But that's a lot of maybes, and that's all in the future. What we have right now, in the present, with no maybes about it, is a public that's shifted to the pro-choice position, shifted to the pro-amnesty position, and shifted to the Bullshit and Bankruptcy position on budgetary matters.



In other words, we have a public that is wrong on just about everything in just about every way possible.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 02:45 PM (4df7R)

199 "Now imagine in the not too distant future when the left will agitate for changing pedophilia from a heinous crime to an accepted sexual orientation."

1 billion of my followers cannot be wrong!

Posted by: Mohammed, composite prophet at January 22, 2013 02:46 PM (B/VB5)

200 Me too. Need a shoulder?

Posted by: John Boehner at January 22, 2013 02:44 PM (t06LC)



Have you removed that elbow out of your ribcage yet?

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 22, 2013 02:46 PM (UOM48)

201 The government has no right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body !!!!!!!

Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, Vt and Proud of it !!!!!!!!!! at January 22, 2013 02:46 PM (48wze)

202 Me too. Need a shoulder?
Posted by: John Boehner at January 22, 2013 02:44 PM (t06LC)
----
Damn, just when you think you've sunk as low as you can sink...

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at January 22, 2013 02:46 PM (SO2Q8)

203 I have a modest proposal...

Posted by: Jonathan Swift at January 22, 2013 02:46 PM (XvHmy)

204 YAY ABORTION!! It let's me be me, and all that a sleazy sex life entails!

Let abortions be rare but necessary (IYKWIMAITYD)!!!!!

Posted by: Lena Dunham at January 22, 2013 02:46 PM (OZmbA)

205 i'm going to start saying to pregnant women oh are you going to keep "it"?

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 02:46 PM (GVxQo)

206 "Now imagine in the not too distant future when the left will agitate for changing pedophilia from a heinous crime to an accepted sexual orientation."

It's already started. But they'll go for polygamy first.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 02:46 PM (4df7R)

207 The government has no right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body !!!!!!!
Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, Vt and Proud of it !!!!!!!!!! at January 22, 2013 02:46 PM (48wze)

Except of course for that prostitution thing.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. http://tinyurl.com/ahc8poj at January 22, 2013 02:47 PM (l86i3)

208 The Democrat party was simultaneously the party of forced integration and segregation, depending on the Democrat you talked to.

National Democrats could weasel and get the support of both camps.

It has always been such.

They can always lie.

Posted by: AmishDude at January 22, 2013 02:47 PM (T0NGe)

209
The good news is if you are on the pro-life side, obamacare will get you in for an abortion in 11 months.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 22, 2013 02:47 PM (p/cQy)

210 I'm actually out of step with the Church on this, as She supports the death penalty, but only for the gravest ofcrimes. Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (zF6Iw)

You're not out of step with the Catholic Church if that's the Church you're referring to. Their position is "no death penalty where life without parole is an option."

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 02:47 PM (sbV1u)

211 Posted by: spongeworthy at January 22, 2013 02:45 PM (r5w1L)

I explained that (unfortunately after the election) to people who voted for Obama. "I think Romney would have more important things on his mind than overturning Roe v. Wade for the first little while. Besides, even if he did it would go back to the states. Romney can't outlaw it." Blank stare.

Posted by: Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain at January 22, 2013 02:47 PM (bj+Nc)

212 To quote Teh SARAH!!!!!!
"Polls are for strippers"

Yep, still a palinista

Posted by: Navycopjoe at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (U3OzJ)

213 ONE poll, showing something which has never been the result before, is 100% meaningless. "Issue" polls are notoriously unreliable anyway. According to the "issues" polls last November, Americans wanted no tax increases on anyone, no ObamaCare, and spending cuts - even as they were reelecting Obama.

Pardon me if I withhold panic for a bit.

Akin and Murdock didn't lose because they were unapologetically pro-life. They lost because they were stupid and stuck their foots in their mouths and chewed vigorously.

A "legitimate rape . . . doesn't cause pregnancy"? A rapist's impregnating a victim is "God's gift"? Forgive me if I wouldn't want those men anywhere near the halls of power either, and away from sharp objects, too. They had winnable races against weak opponents, failed to unite their party by reaching out to defeated opponents, and blew their races all on their own.

Democrats can get away with running Sheila Jackson Lee and Patty Murray because their target audience is stupid anyway. We don't enjoy that luxury.

Posted by: Adjoran at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (9uOra)

214 Sorry but I believe you would not be able to name one in our generation. There are doubts but no hard evidence.On the other hand, there are at least 800 people in prison now for homicide that were previously released from prison for homicide. That is at least 800 people that could have been saved by applying the death penalty.
Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (m2CN7)


Point understood and respected. See you all tomorrow on the headlines thread.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (zF6Iw)

215 Democrats focus group the hell out of their positions.

They follow the polls.

That is the rode to hell. The path of least resistance.

The arguments that appeal to the lowest common denominator.

American Exceptionalism? (auto correct doesn't want to let me type that.)

Buh-bye.

Posted by: tasker at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (r2PLg)

216 "Now imagine in the not too distant future when the left will agitate for changing pedophilia from a heinous crime to an accepted sexual orientation."


That's hen I go all Star Chamber on some folks.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. http://tinyurl.com/ahc8poj at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (l86i3)

217 If those of us on the Right wish to at least LIMIT the amount of abortions??? There is a way coming soon....

Israel has, in human trials, a MALE Birth control pill. You take it once a month, and it stops the sperm from impregnating the egg... so even the most hardline Anti Abortion folks should support this as no life is ever created.

And 'IF' we advertise this pill as Men taking back control of their procreation? Tell them its your 'Child Support Insurance'?

Key is to make this CHEAP and available... which if one Drug company gets control of it... it won't be....

IMO this would decrease Abortions by at LEAST 50%!

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (lZBBB)

218 Except of course for that prostitution thing.

And try to sell a kidney.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (evdj2)

219 My gosh Ace, quite the post.

What we definitely have is a very divided country. 1/3 strong pro-life. 1/3 strong pro-choice, and another 1/3 in the middle. When you have an electorate like that you need a poltical solution, such as abortion only in the first trimester. Or abortion in states that want it but not in states that don't want it. Unfortunately, the Court took that away from us, so we are still fighting this issue.

There is really only one logical end - the ending of abortion. Because the pro-lifers will never give up. The banning of abortion will only come when a good portion of the country is strongly pro-life, not before.

Of course, there will still be some abortions, just as there is still murder, but it will be outside general humanity. If we don't get to that point, this country will forever be divided. Eventually that division will rip us apart.

Its possible that the Court could overturn Roe v. Wade (and Doe and Casey), thus allowing a poltical solution, but I think we are well past that point.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (gmeXX)

220 Life is getting cheaper and cheaper all the time. The Left is doing its job well.

Posted by: Pyrocles at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (cv5Iw)

221 Shameful. And I know shameful.

Posted by: Cardinal Roger Mahony at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (msPO3)

222 @195

I think thats the endgame. As soon as interest rates rise cities and states largely in the blue areas will go tits up. A second major crash will occur and there will be a lot of pressure on the Dems to do something (as 40% of all Dem congressmen are from NY or Cali). At the same time you'll have a bunch of governors and people from the not bankrupt states crying foul. I don't see how that ends well without some serious changes to the federal system and/or the map of the US.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 02:49 PM (t06LC)

223 Except of course for that prostitution thing.>>

Or what drugs you can take and your hair must be cut by a "licensed" Stylist...

Posted by: Buzzsaw at January 22, 2013 02:49 PM (81UWZ)

224 206

disagree on this. polyamory, i.e. mutually-agreed cheating, now that might become more hip, but it's not something that'd likely be codified into law.

i tend to think slippery slope arguments, while they're sometimes correct, almost concede the actual issue by shifting focus and stretching to draw analogies between things.

Posted by: JDP at January 22, 2013 02:49 PM (60GaT)

225 I vaugely remember that. Was it during the Obamacare kerfuffle

Honestly don't remember. I said something and you asked a similar question and I think I probably gave a similar answer. Could very well have been 2009. Is there a name for when you have déjà vu and it actually happened?

Posted by: The Mega Independent at January 22, 2013 02:49 PM (46pA5)

226 The Rs are gonna win by being more lib? Really? Let me know how that works.

Posted by: Invictus at January 22, 2013 02:49 PM (OQpzc)

227
177
yes, yes it was.....



and it is why I want you at my side ma'am.





Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:34 PM (LRFds)




-------------------

A sentiment which is returned.





Randomly, I really do want pie.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 02:42 PM (VtjlW)


Awwww....... *wipes away tear*

So, what kinda pie we talking about here AtC?


Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 02:50 PM (da5Wo)

228 Randomly, I really do want pie. Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 02:42 PM (VtjlW)

Apple? Cherry? Blueberry?

Or...was that really just a euphemism for something else?

Jus' askin'! Never can tell around here!

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 02:50 PM (sbV1u)

229 Rainbow Six was a work of non-fiction in its description of what the eco-terrorists wanted.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 02:33 PM (VtjlW)


And it was nice to see what they got. Well, in their own little world. Nekkid in the jungle probably isn't too much fun.

Posted by: RWC at January 22, 2013 02:50 PM (fWAjv)

230 The thing that upsets me most about partial birth abortion is the lie that it is done to save the life or health of the mother. That cannot be true because if it were, then why wouldn't you do a C-Section? Delivering through the canal and then killing the baby seems to me to be endangering the mother.

Of course the problem is that with a C-Section you have a live baby as a result. Hence the lie about health. At least that's the way I see it.

Posted by: LGoPs at January 22, 2013 02:50 PM (4x8W0)

231 GMTA, BC

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 02:50 PM (sbV1u)

232 Akin and Murdock didn't lose because they were unapologetically pro-life. They lost because they were stupid and stuck their foots in their mouths and chewed vigorously.

This. Ace loves him some wide burning fields of SoCon strawmen, but I don't know anyone, "strong form" on abortion or not, who didn't think those two had committed a colossal self dick-stomping.

Posted by: Ian S. at January 22, 2013 02:50 PM (B/VB5)

233 Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at January 22, 2013 02:48 PM (zF6Iw)

I also respect the consistency of being both pro life and anti death penalty. I cannot respect those that are pro choice and anti death penalty.

Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 02:51 PM (m2CN7)

234 Wait, is there a hill we're not dying on?

Posted by: Aaron at January 22, 2013 02:51 PM (Tlix5)

235 196 Jollyroger,

There's a lot to that by the way. we buried them with a combination of work ethic, confidence, apparent unity of purpose, and a willingness to risk the unthinkable if need be.

This nation right now could not do it and I must admit to my shame were we attacked I would only volunteer to defend our soil.

I am finally ready to pay back the left drop of venom drop by drop for the cafeteria patriotism.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:51 PM (LRFds)

236 If NBC did a poll on Elvis right now 90% would say they have seen Elvis at the local diner in the past 6 months.
Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (53z96)---You mean that wasn't him?

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at January 22, 2013 02:51 PM (R8hU8)

237 >>She shut it down with the statement I'm pro-choice and I don't want to think about it. This is your typical liberal voter. It's not a position, it's a shibboleth.
Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 22, 2013 02:45 PM (evdj2)

This is my point.You can argue moral/immoral, legal/ illegal but to use the term Pro Choice instead of Pro Abortion allows for a hideously ironic distinction.The Choice is for one party over the unborn's and potentially the unknown's of the father.Just call it what it is and LIVE with it.

Posted by: ontherocks at January 22, 2013 02:51 PM (aZ6ew)

238
231
GMTA, BC


Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 02:50 PM (sbV1u)



Lmao

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 02:52 PM (da5Wo)

239 "Ace loves him some wide burning fields of SoCon strawmen"

lol interesting image

Posted by: JDP at January 22, 2013 02:52 PM (60GaT)

240 well, back to the book.

Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:52 PM (53z96)

241 Good coffee. Thank you, thank you very much.

Posted by: Elvis at January 22, 2013 02:52 PM (evdj2)

242 Someone needs to connect the dots on abortion and Social Security. We cannot have both.

Posted by: cajun carrot at January 22, 2013 02:52 PM (UZQM8)

243 Tip O'Neil, or some other political hack, said that all politics is local. Ain't too many things more local than your daughter's vagina. I'm in contact and have "personal conversations" with hundreds of mid to upper class, generally white women every week in a usually conservative part of Phoenix. Nothing causes them more fear than the possibility that their high school or college age daughters will not be able to have an abortion when Johnny Football star impregnates them. That fear is overwhelming, and surpasses any concern they have about taxes, the economy, etc.

Posted by: MoeRon at January 22, 2013 02:52 PM (AURjX)

244 i'm going to start saying to pregnant women oh are you going to keep "it"?

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 02:46 PM (GVxQo)




Years ago I did that to a few militantly pro-abortion women I knew. I asked, if they made their choice? They responded, about what? I would point to their stomach and say, That!
Guess what? It wasn't a choice for THEM. It was their little baby in there. How dare I even say something like that.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at January 22, 2013 02:53 PM (1Jaio)

245 "Except of course for that prostitution thing"

Legalize that too. None of the government's business.

Posted by: Jordan at January 22, 2013 02:53 PM (Hz1zc)

246 A lot of this "support" comes from people that 1) are disconnected from the topic 2) have no opinion of any strength on the topic and 3) have no experience with the topic.

They have no idea of the law, the positions behind it, the arguments against, etc. They have the same level of involvement as they do when you ask them about deficits.

As I have personally experienced, when you try to sit down, and discuss LOGIC or FACT, the more you hit them with undeniable fact, the more they realize their rock-solid position is a house of cards. Some get hostile, some become introspective, and others just power through reality back to the land of make believe.

So, I suggest that the act of abortion, in all it's flag-waving glory, be "televised", as in "this is what you claim to support. STill support it?" You can do that and have support stay the same when the procedure is, say, heart surgery, but when your stuffin' and flsuhing a small baby/fetus, I don't the "support" will endure. It's why lefties are fighting HARD to ban 3d sonograms. Can't have you actually be filled in on your "right to choose".


Posted by: Saltydonnie at January 22, 2013 02:53 PM (v2B2W)

247 Israel has, in human trials, a MALE Birth control pill. You take it once a month, and it stops the sperm from impregnating the egg... so even the most hardline Anti Abortion folks should support this as no life is ever created.

Believe it or not, feminists are already making noises about this being a horrible thing that must be banned. Because it removes The Choice(tm) from womyn.

Posted by: Ian S. at January 22, 2013 02:53 PM (B/VB5)

248 there should be a poll question, "what would it mean if 'Roe' was overturned," or something like that.

maybe i'm overestimating the amount of people who don't totally understand it, dunno.

Posted by: JDP at January 22, 2013 02:53 PM (60GaT)

249 @197 yup, there is no discussion. I mean, really, our side, whatever it is, gets zero respect or airplay. We're just kooks to them.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 02:54 PM (QxSug)

250 208 AmishDude,

and that is why I want the nation to split....

Face facts Ace democrats think they are your business partner and they keep no contracts or oaths unless so inclined.

They hamstring your ability to capitalize on wealth to aid rent seekers, and undermine our foreign policy for raw power gain while troops die.

No if we must have an all powerful Federal Leviathan I have no desire to be in bed with New England or the west coast anymore.

Wreck the car and start over.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:54 PM (LRFds)

251 Someone needs to connect the dots on abortion and Social Security. We cannot have both.
Posted by: cajun carrot at January 22, 2013 02:52 PM (UZQM

True, but once we accept the disposal of babies, disposal of the elderly won't be far behind. If you can't work, then you are a drag on the "Collective".

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. http://tinyurl.com/ahc8poj at January 22, 2013 02:54 PM (l86i3)

252 Is there a name for when you have déjà vu and it actually happened?
Posted by: The Mega Independent at January 22, 2013 02:49 PM (46pA5)

Probably in german. I guess its something I notice and then promptly forget about. I might want to unify some theory. I've got a few hours, I'm at work.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 02:54 PM (t06LC)

253 Believe it or not, feminists are already making noises about this being a horrible thing that must be banned. Because it removes The Choice(tm) from womyn.
Posted by: Ian S. at January 22, 2013 02:53 PM (B/VB5)


And people wonder why I hate feminists more than spiders.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 02:54 PM (4df7R)

254 245

insight yo

Posted by: JDP at January 22, 2013 02:54 PM (60GaT)

255 "Except of course for that prostitution thing"

Legalize that too. None of the government's business.
Posted by: Jordan at January 22, 2013 02:53 PM (Hz1zc)


I got five bucks, suck my dick, Idiot.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. http://tinyurl.com/ahc8poj at January 22, 2013 02:55 PM (l86i3)

256 On Friday I will be standing in the bitter cold with tens of thousands of other who will die on this hill, anyone going to be with me?

Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 02:55 PM (TdK8A)

257 True, but once we accept the disposal of babies, disposal of the elderly won't be far behind. If you can't work, then you are a drag on the "Collective".
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. http://tinyurl.com/ahc8poj at January 22, 2013 02:54 PM (l86i3)


And the disabled. SSDI would go a lot further if there was less DI to spread around.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 02:55 PM (4df7R)

258 The reason is because they are activists by nature, and many of their
lives revolve around, and are built around, their ideology. They are
taught by people influential to them to lie because "changing the world"
is all that matters.

They are taught that their desire to
"change the world" makes them important and better than others. It gives
them a reason for the feeling of superiority they've otherwise never
been able to place (it's really based on unconscious inferiority).

We're fighting a cult.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at January 22, 2013 02:39 PM (46pA5)

---

I've
never engaged in activism. Sometimes I do toy with the idea of getting
involved to "make a difference"... but if I ever do act its not out of
wanting to be important but rather a stubborn drive to right an
injustice. Stuff like the tanning tax, light-bulb ban and the individual
mandate makes me furious.

Posted by: Serious Cat at January 22, 2013 02:55 PM (UypUQ)

259 Is there a name for when you have déjà vu and it actually happened?
Posted by: The Mega Independent at January 22, 2013 02:49 PM (46pA5)

____________________

Bender.

As in Three Day Bender.

Posted by: tasker at January 22, 2013 02:55 PM (r2PLg)

260
I've always used the term "Pro-Abortion" to describe my position.

I'm also pro-assisted suicide and in some cases, pro-euthenasia.

However, I'm against late-term abortions. Go figure.

Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (ZDsRL)

261 236 If NBC did a poll on Elvis right now 90% would say they have seen Elvis at the local diner in the past 6 months.


Posted by: Vic at January 22, 2013 02:43 PM (53z96)


---You mean that wasn't him?


Posted by: Velvet Ambition at January 22, 2013 02:51 PM (R8hU


/puts on his sunglasses, and jumps in his Caddy...

Ooopppssss... I'm outa here.... Thang you... thang you very much...

Posted by: Elvis at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (lZBBB)

262 Ace, what about the anti-tampon forces? How are they polling, since you know, the left pointed out that Romney wanted to ban tampons during the election cycle.

On the other hand, I guess there's no data about insane deficits caused by not having a budget while paying off crony communist donors to the president or about letting the muslim brotherhood take over the middle east. That's stuff's specialty issues that only concern aspie voters.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (QxSug)

263 Once the majority is on board with killing the unborn, it isn't that far of a stretch to get them ready to kill the elderly, or disabled.

Check out what's happening in Europe right now (45 year old twins who volunteered to be euthanized because they were going blind). And the new minister of whatever in Japan, who's telling elderly Japanese they should just die already.

It ties into that idiot Attenborough or whatever his name is, from the earlier post. Get rid of everybody but the most perfect people, the right age, the right health status, and of course the right party membership.



Posted by: Boots at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (oG66P)

264 This country has lost it's way and really won't admit it. A few of us that knew the country 30 - 40 years ago know what I'm talking about.

As I said this last Nov. The United States as many of us have known it is gone forever.

You can argue this shit until the cows come home, but as long as DC holds all the power, we'll keep watching this nation crumble into oblivion.

Posted by: Soona at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (N2KVu)

265 RAther than lie themselves, I would have greatly preferred the Republicans to say things in public like "The President is lying his ass off. Here is why it is a lie". Call a lie a lie, call a liar a liar, no matter what his position is. I think the problem is the morons who couldn't decide who to vote for, LOOK for this kind of fight- like a reality TV show, they expect it and when they don't get it- when they don't get the GOP saying "Harry Reid is a giant liar" or "Obama is lying to you" and using strong language like that, they go "Hmmm, well the republicans response was some kind of nuance that I don't understand so I guess the democrats must be right, Mitt Romney did cause cancer"

Or to put it another way, call a spade a spade, in blunt terms.

Posted by: Matt at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (c4UpU)

266 >>>This. Ace loves him some wide burning fields of SoCon strawmen, but I don't know anyone, "strong form" on abortion or not, who didn't think those two had committed a colossal self dick-stomping.

It's not a strawman. We'll just have to agree to disagree. You (or at least many) seem to think that their positions are politically viable; they just didn't express them properly.

I don't think the positions are viable, no matter how well "expressed" they are.

I think it's extraordinary alarming for a woman to hear that one party would like to force her to deliver her rapist's child, against her will (because, Moral Clarity).

There is not enough sugarcoating available to make this non-alarming.

If you (or others) wish to cling to the notion that this is a Sound Position that just needs to be Explained Better, fine. I think that's fantasy, myself.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (LCRYB)

267
My sister's best friend's younger sister ran away from home when she was in high school and her parents tried to make her get an abortion.
The family has never seen her again, except for in the background of some PBS show a long time ago.
I just know she did well.

Posted by: Justamom of the LiB camp at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (Sptt8)

268 If you saw a child about to be hit by a car would
you save it or let god sort it out. You either believe in the sanctity
of life or you don't. Don't let Relitivism or rationalization cloud what
you know to be true. Abortion is murder.


Posted by: Oldsailors Poet
............
Sez you..

I don't know when "life" starts. An embryo could be "potential" life.

Raised as a Catholic, I was taught the embryo is endowed with a soul.

But this all requires a whole of of beliefs that simply do not exist in our society any longer.. and in some part in myself.

You must believe in a God.. a god that imparts an everlasting soul into each being.. and who creates that soul at the moment of inception.

So, abortion comes down to a religious issue, not a societal one. It's not your business to decide that. Because you cannot. You can believe whatever you like, but there is no proof beyond some words in a book Christians revere.


Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (f9c2L)

269 Obamabot Singer James Taylor On Gun Control: “We Need To Make Some Sacrifices To Our Freedoms”…

Hum? Liberals did not feel that way when they were asked to make some sacrifices to combat terrorism?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 22, 2013 02:57 PM (9Bj8R)

270 222 Jollyroger,

so by trying to out free shit the donks we speed that up....

I really do think it is the only sane way we can save any of American freedoms the left will keep importing 3d worlders to offset their abortion losses in numbers, would go insane if we forced their shit out of schools....

there can be no peace because I am not giving up and they are COUNTING on me to "follow the law" and "society"

The quicker we either devolve or break up the better.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:57 PM (LRFds)

271 And the disabled. SSDI would go a lot further if there was less DI to spread around.
Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 02:55 PM (4df7R)


Damn skippy, your child don't meet the governments definition of normal? I don't care if you can bag groceries corky, off the the rail road car for you.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. http://tinyurl.com/ahc8poj at January 22, 2013 02:57 PM (l86i3)

272 I think the government is over reaching and out of control. Presdent Obama should do something to control the government.

Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, Vt and Proud of it !!!!!!!!!! at January 22, 2013 02:57 PM (48wze)

273 227 BC1981,

yes....

actually Ms Alex and I can compare recipes I'd suspect....

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:57 PM (LRFds)

274 Nothing causes them more fear than the possibility that their high
school or college age daughters will not be able to have an abortion
when Johnny Football star impregnates them.


I guess this is easy for me to say because Johnny Football Star never looked at me twice except to hit me up for answers to the math homework, but what sort of lousy fucking parenting is that?!

Posted by: Peggy Joseph at January 22, 2013 02:58 PM (ZKzrr)

275 Barack Obama made a remark at an inaugural luncheon so disingenuous that the moment came when the rise of the oceans began to slow.
Really.
Obama said: "I know that former President Carter, President Clinton, they understand the irony of the presidential office, which is the longer you're there, the more humble you become, and the more mindful you are that is beyond your powers individually to move this great country.”

If it teaches humility, it sure looks like it didn't take in your case?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 22, 2013 02:58 PM (9Bj8R)

276 @266 it also doesn't help when rape-bortionists are nominated over tea party candidates and then get labeled as a tea party candidate.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 02:58 PM (QxSug)

277 Plenty of Morons thought the whole Akin thing would just go away if no one talked about it.

Posted by: Hobojerky at January 22, 2013 02:59 PM (hV/3D)

278 I'm pretty pro-life, but its pretty clear to me that that the pro-life movement overplayed its hand. Worse, there was no point to overplaying its hand.
Overplaying can be a good thing when you're not sure how far you can go and you want to test the limits. Its at least defensible then. But you only do it when you've banked all the less controversial stuff. The pro-live movement is FAR from having banked all the less controversial stuff.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at January 22, 2013 02:59 PM (ZMzpb)

279 102 The country is full of stupid people with no concept of personal responsibility. Not surprised.
Posted by: Adam at January 22, 2013 02:29 PM (/YJYi)


102 The country is full of stupid people with no concept of consequences.
Every lottery winning dipshit or bureaucratic hack you'll meet insists that they brought about their own circumstance themselves, through their years of preparation, finally cashing in on either their pain-staking worked-out "system," or the merit of their hard work and certification.

Posted by: Buddy PC at January 22, 2013 02:59 PM (cyrh6)

280 251 OSP,

but but Obama said I get free shit!

//ObamaFo lady

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 02:59 PM (LRFds)

281 "Weekend at Bernies" at least had its moments of humor.

This reality show with America playing the part of Bernie sucks ass . . . .

Posted by: RoyalOil at January 22, 2013 03:00 PM (imtbm)

282 Israel has, in human trials, a MALE Birth control pill. You take it once a month, and it stops the sperm from impregnating the egg... so even the most hardline Anti Abortion folks should support this as no life is ever created.

You have heard ofcondoms and the Church's position on these right?

Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 03:00 PM (m2CN7)

283 272 I think the government is over reaching and out of control. Presdent Obama should do something to control the government.


Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, Vt and Proud of it !!!!!!!!!! at January 22, 2013 02:57 PM (48wze)


Hey Pretty Momma.... as a duly Deputized Federal Agent... I gotta tell ya... go make me a Peanut Butter and Bannana sandwich...

Posted by: Elvis at January 22, 2013 03:00 PM (lZBBB)

284 Long ago, Republicans made the mistake of simply not stating;

- As a party position, we are against abortion and do not believe this is a federal issue. Moreso, it is a states rights issue.

- We do not believe in the use of taxpayer funds for abortion.

- While we oppose the practice, abortion is a personal issue and thus best decided by the mother.

BTW, I bet most people answering that survey don't have a clue what Roe v. Wade means in terms of abortion law. Nor do they understand that from a legal point of view it is largely viewed as one of the most poorly reasoned decisions ever judged by SCOTUS.

Posted by: Marcus at January 22, 2013 03:00 PM (GGCsk)

285 So, abortion comes down to a religious issue, not a societal one. It's not your business to decide that. Because you cannot. You can believe whatever you like, but there is no proof beyond some words in a book Christians revere.


Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (f9c2L)


Some day you will be the one having that conversation with God. I don't think he is quite as flippant as you. Good luck. I know you know the truth.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. http://tinyurl.com/ahc8poj at January 22, 2013 03:01 PM (l86i3)

286 >>>Plenty of Morons thought the whole Akin thing would just go away if no one talked about it.

I stopped talking about him (altogether) when the deadline to drop out passed. Many conservatives who opposed him similarly pursued a First Do No Harm approach after that deadline passed.

And yet it continued to be an issue. And he continued to lose by 10, 15 points.

The hypothesis "We need to just stop talking about it" was disproved.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:01 PM (LCRYB)

287 >Plenty of Morons thought the whole Akin thing would just go away if no one talked about it.

Well, people see it work for liberal candidates and assume it will work for their conservative candidates. They forget the whole 'the media is on the side of the liberals' thing.

It would have gone away if no one talked about it. The problem is 'not talking about it' means 'the press stops talking about it'.

Posted by: Crude at January 22, 2013 03:01 PM (P0eiX)

288 277 Hobojerky,

and we were wrong...

let me put on my zany Luap Nor Kult style Konspracy hat for a sec...

Westboro Baptist is ostensibly "Christian" what if the left in the 70s set up several sleeper cell churches that have people like Akin as ringers?

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:01 PM (LRFds)

289 122 Liberals succeed because of lying and incrementalism. No one would buy their agenda as a whole -- so they advance it bit by bit, insidiously.

But the public doesn't recoil, because at each step it has some time to adjust to the new situation.

**********

I think this is correct with strict appeals to emotionalism added in. Plus, they do everything they can to keep logic and reason out of these discussions. And it works with everything from abortion to the welfare state.

I vacillate between thinking we are DOOMED! and thinking that we can make some inroads on this position, especially with all the advances in science and technology that clearly shows the contents of the womb to be a living, growing human being. There's a reason, after all, that the folks who are most vehemently pro-abortion fight tooth and nail to keep factual depictions and information about the gestational human being out of the hands of pregnant women. It's been shown that a very large chunk of women who manage to get informed about their pregnancy and what abortion really does and all the risks they take when having one opt to keep their children. That cuts into the bottom line for the likes of NARAL and Planned Parenthood, etc, and so it cannot be tolerated.

But then I remember that most people, even those I know who are conservative leaners, do not actually *think* about issues, they *feel* their way through them. And they are assaulted with the touchy-feely bullshit lefty propaganda morning, noon, and night and I then think that we've probably crossed the tipping point where we might have turned back from this crap. And that those of us advocating for some kind of sense are ounces crying out in the wilderness.

If the latter is really the case and we are now outnumbered demographically, then I think we need to go with conviction.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at January 22, 2013 03:01 PM (qFpRI)

290
Israel has, in human trials, a MALE Birth control pill.



Hello!

Posted by: Helen Thomas' salt and pepper snatch at January 22, 2013 03:01 PM (GQ8sn)

291 Could we have a poll asking if trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see is a sustainable economic trajectory?

Posted by: ejo at January 22, 2013 03:02 PM (GXvSO)

292 The simple fact of the matter is that most people aren't terribly interested in abortion as a political issue in the first place, and that includes people, like me, that wouldn't care if it were banned. It just isn't that important to me.

Posted by: radar at January 22, 2013 03:02 PM (zmlwq)

293 You have heard ofcondoms and the Church's position on these right?


Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 03:00 PM (m2CN7)


Note.... I was careful to say Anti Abortion Folks... not anti Birth Control folks...

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 22, 2013 03:02 PM (lZBBB)

294 True, but once we accept the disposal of babies, disposal of the elderly won't be far behind. If you can't work, then you are a drag on the "Collective".


And the disabled. SSDI would go a lot further if there was less DI to spread around.


Trust me. If it ever gets that far, I won't be shooting to disable.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 22, 2013 03:02 PM (jZpAK)

295
Shooting at Texas tech college campus. In a gun-free zone, imagine that.

Won't be big news for long, was black gang members shooting it out, hit two bystanders.

Do the cops have to turn in their guns before entering a gun-free zone?

Or does the campus call people withguns to protect them in the gun-free zone.


It's all very confusing...

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 22, 2013 03:02 PM (1Y+hH)

296 I think it would be humorous to wargame how, if Hunstman was the 2012 nominee, Hunstman would've been vilified as an out of touch mean old scary white male conservative.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:02 PM (QxSug)

297 I'm confused now. What does the R party stand for? Seems they've run
screaming from fiscal cons, border enforcement and now socons need to
stfu and stfd.



What do they stand for? Is it writted down somewhere?


A permanent GOP majority, according to Rove. What really matters is that a majority in Congress will be sporting the red team jersey.

It will be a wonderful day.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at January 22, 2013 03:02 PM (QKKT0)

298 I think it's extraordinary alarming for a woman to hear that one party
would like to force her to deliver her rapist's child, against her will
(because, Moral Clarity).





But the murder of a child because the father was a scumbag who did a horrifically bad thing isn't alarming?

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (da5Wo)

299 The pro-life movement is FORCED to overplay their hand - by the press that plays "gotcha" journalism.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (f9c2L)

300 Chi-Town Jerry,
you=out to lunch.
There's actually nothing in the Bible really about when life begins. So the "religious" beliefs we're talking about here are beliefs that all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, etc. If you accept that 'religious' belief then you have to decide when human life begins. The most obvious answer to me is conception, which is why, though my religion doesn't have any specific teaching on when the soul enters the body, I am pro-life. There are also pro-life atheists, for the same reason.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (ZMzpb)

301 Love the Capitalization of the Key Concepts and Important Words.

Posted by: Christopher Robin at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (6cOMd)

302
If there was something that could be put in the water systems around the world to make it so that no woman would conceive until they took positive action (like taking a pill for 30 days straight), I would be for it.

Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (ZDsRL)

303 Not Texas Tech. A tech college in Texas.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (1Y+hH)

304 Rather than whether abortion should be legal, were the opinion poll simplified to the individual tax payer's IRS tax form, whether each citizen willingly personally finances "free" abortions for other people, the majority of tax payers would decline paying that fee/tax assessment.

Having a baby is a personal responsibility. For those who want an abortion, there are interested private parties that fund such operations for the indigent.

Personally, I wouldn't have an abortion. I certainly don't approve of anyone forcing me to pay for abortions, either. But neither would I want to adopt another child to raise. We have our responsibilities to our own children, and to ourselves. Hell, even the Japanese culture that traditionally worshiped their ancestors converted to the eugenics of terminating their own elderly for being a financial burden (Japan's finance minister's news quote today).

Raising a human being is a full time commitment. Leaving parenting to a governmental agency to do is not an ideal setting for the person, regardless of age. Adoption can be great, and homes for unwed runaway expectant mothers are solid charities, very necessary for society to PRIVATELY sponsor. But take notice that wannabe parents often expect "perfection" -- shopping for the perfect genetic baby that they feel they "deserve" -- unaffected by drugs while in vetro, for instance. Same "deserve" mentality applies to most Americans about this or that matter, including whether to abort a fetus because it isn't "perfect" -- doesn't match expectations. Hell, that's the thing about life. Ask Mrs. Gump.

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (MhA4j)

305 "Do the cops have to turn in their guns before entering a gun-free zone?"

Of course not.

Posted by: Jordan at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (Hz1zc)

306 I'm almost indifferent to the moral bankruptcy of my fellow citizens now. Our society is going to burn no matter what I do. American Exceptionalism appears to be too week for the social entropy of humankind. Misery, poverty, murder, oppression and fear are the human condition.

We had a good run though. LiFB.

Posted by: toby928© sips the sweet tea of despair at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (evdj2)

307 **
Do the cops have to turn in their guns before entering a gun-free zone?**

well, when the legislature writes the law so as to not exempt the cops because stupid and lazy, then it would seem so

cough cough ny state

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (QxSug)

308 so even the most hardline Anti Abortion folks should support this as no life is ever created. You have heard ofcondoms and the Church's position on these right? Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 03:00 PM (m2CN7)

But do you understand why the Church believes this? Because that's pretty germane to the entire argument.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:04 PM (sbV1u)

309
Faith or not, reason or not, economics or not, demographics or not, abortion cheapens human life.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 22, 2013 03:04 PM (p/cQy)

310 Hardcore pro-abortionists will never switch to pro-life. Not because they'll never be presented with enough compelling evidence to prompt such a switch, but because doing so would mean they've advocated murder their whole lives. Since leftists believe they are the most wonderful people in the world who could never, EVER harm a FLY, that kind of moral realization would destroy every pillar of their life.

They will cling to their position through Hell and high water, and they will try to drag as many members of the mushy-middle into the flood as they can, because they need the vocal support of hundreds of voices to prop up their desperately shallow self-respect.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 03:04 PM (4df7R)

311 >I'm pretty pro-life, but its pretty clear to me that that the pro-life movement overplayed its hand. Worse, there was no point to overplaying its hand.

People keep saying this, but where was the 'overplaying their hand' move, at least in this last election?

Akin didn't get hell because he said he wanted to ban all abortions, if he even wanted that. He got hell because he said something stupid about women's bodies being able to avoid pregnancy from a rape due to some kind of internal security system that does not exist and sounds bizarre when you even try to explain it.

Mourdock produced a soundbite talking about children of rape being 'gifts from God' which also sounds ridiculous.

NEITHER of these guys were laying out some kind of pro-life case, and both of them actually caught some hell from pro-lifers over being just so, so inept with their message. There were no hands overplayed. There were stupid moves made by stupid people.

Posted by: Crude at January 22, 2013 03:04 PM (P0eiX)

312 Of course not. Posted by: Jordan at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (Hz1zc)

Then it's not a gun-free zone - is it?

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:05 PM (sbV1u)

313 "I highlighted Latinos to rebut this enduring myth that Latinos are 'naturally conservative' because of their 'religious and family values'
or whatnot."

Don't bother trying to rebut this.

It's an unkillable zombie trope.

I've been having well intentioned idiots tell me since the 1980s that Latino immigrants are "natural conservatives" and "a perfect fit for the GOP".

And I've then watched the same Latinos get citizenship and get the vote and become FDR style straight-ticket Democrat voters for life.

Will that deter the well intentioned idiots? No, it sure won't. Because it never has before. Despite my having repeatedly highlighted it as a point of glaring failure.



Posted by: torquewrench at January 22, 2013 03:05 PM (gqT4g)

314 "Do the cops have to turn in their guns before entering a gun-free zone?"

Of course not.Posted by: Jordan at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (Hz1zc)Heh.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 22, 2013 03:05 PM (1Y+hH)

315 "So, abortion comes down to a religious issue"

partially, but so what

the "pro-science" side recognizes that it's a life but it's not "enough" of a life, that's as ideological as anything else.

Posted by: JDP at January 22, 2013 03:05 PM (60GaT)

316
I think the government is over reaching and out of control. Presdent Obama should do something to control the government.

Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro, Vt and Proud of it !!!!!!!!!! at January 22, 2013 02:57 PM (48wze)



Maybe he could combine the office of President and Chancellor into one and coming up with a catchy title for it. Like The Leader

Posted by: TheQuietMan at January 22, 2013 03:05 PM (1Jaio)

317 >>>The simple fact of the matter is that most people aren't terribly interested in abortion as a political issue in the first place, and that includes people, like me, that wouldn't care if it were banned. It just isn't that important to me.

I think you're wrong in that "most people aren't interested in it;" when 35% of the country is strongly pro-life, and 35% is strongly pro-choice, that definitely makes your position minority.

I think some of the people who care about it less are married women who are not *ideologically* committed to pro-life positions -- they've had kids, they know fetuses are babies, and they're also not fearful about getting pregnant, so even if they're not strongly pro-life, they're not strongly against banning abortion -- it barely affects them, and they can see the sense of it.

But here's the problem: When you tell such a woman, who is more than happy to deliver her husband's baby even if it's a Surprise Baby, that she must *also deliver her rapist's baby,* suddenly the pro-life position is NOT, as it was a moment ago, free of negative consequences for her.

Now you've given her a big fat reason to reconsider her position and re-cast her weak acceptance of the pro-life position into some sort of opposition to it.


Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:05 PM (LCRYB)

318 Romeo13, it needs to do something easily detectable, like an orangutan's ass turning red, if it working. A purple dick would be appropriate.

Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 03:06 PM (TdK8A)

319 There's a reason, after all, that the folks who are most vehemently
pro-abortion fight tooth and nail to keep factual depictions and
information about the gestational human being out of the hands of
pregnant women.


More insidious, they fight harder to make sure pregnant women never learn of any negative health effects of abortion on women, especially later infertility/miscarriage.

Women's health my ass.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:06 PM (ZKzrr)

320 But the murder of a child because the father was a scumbag who did a horrifically bad thing isn't alarming?


Posted by: BCochran1981
..........
But here's what you don't understand.. The woman carrying it does not believe it to be a. a child, or b. murder.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 22, 2013 03:06 PM (f9c2L)

321 But the murder of a child because the father was a scumbag who did a horrifically bad thing isn't alarming? Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (da5Wo)

No man, that's just collateral damage.

It's much more important that we all have what we want.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:06 PM (sbV1u)

322 Crude,
both Akin and Mourdock went there in response to questions about abortion in the event of rape. They were trying to justify or at least make room for the hard-line position of no abortion in case of rape.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at January 22, 2013 03:06 PM (ZMzpb)

323
I see respect for life more as a humanity issue and do not think one must have religion to know the difference between right and wrong. Although it helps immeasurably.
I was raised in a hypocrite, broken home and came to God upon looking at first ultrasound.
Changed my life.
Up til then, tho, it was mighty convenient to live in a society of live and let choose to live or die.

Posted by: Justamom of the LiB camp at January 22, 2013 03:06 PM (Sptt8)

324

Hehhehehehehehehe....thanks Jordan.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 22, 2013 03:06 PM (1Y+hH)

325 Just got a notice on my Ipad that Bibi and the "hard right" won the elections in Israel.

I hate the f'n AP

Posted by: MrCaniac at January 22, 2013 03:07 PM (Zd/NW)

326
You can be pro-choice and against abortions. You just have to believe that the choice was made sometime before conception.

Thus, abortion in cases of rape is not inconsistent because the woman carrying that clump of cells didn't really get a choice then, did she?

Posted by: spongeworthy at January 22, 2013 03:07 PM (r5w1L)

327 Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 02:56 PM (LCRYB)

I dunno ace, as I've pointed out before, the whole "carry the baby to term" thing presupposes a failed intervention in the first place and is thus a bit of a strawman. I don't want any woman to have to have her rapist's baby. Hell I don't even want her having to choose between abortion and having her rapist baby.
There are far less people than you think opposed to emergency contraception as a standard for Rape response. Even the Catholic Church agrees that its' not just morally acceptable, it's morally obligatory. Many places would even go further and allow uterine scraping and a DC. (The Catholic church sits that one out, but to be honest, I bet they happen in Catholic ERs.)

But for some odd reason we're not allowed to point out that the expectation of abortion in the cases of rape means we're accepting a horribly flawed reporting system (which does exist currently.)
Let's shore that shit up first, then see what's left to deal with regarding abortion and rape. Because if we're really gonna try to compete for the moral high ground on this one (as you seem so want to do) I'm pretty sure you're still just a few steps from the top of the hill.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 22, 2013 03:07 PM (YrTJq)

328 This whole abortion issue is only a symptom of a nation that's lost it's virtue and sense of individual responsibility. And without virtue and personal responsibility, we'll lose, as we are in the process now, our freedom.

Posted by: Soona at January 22, 2013 03:08 PM (N2KVu)

329 Baby killers have the sympathy vote. Grandmother killers too. Just have to work the kinks out of the system.

Posted by: Genocidalist at January 22, 2013 03:08 PM (SLhOh)

330 well, the rape baby thing is a standard caveat. A caveat that the GOP generally concedes, even if there is a personal reservation on the part of the politician. And a caveat that the left is more than happy to ignore and simply accuse us all of being extreme on.

Hence the idiocy over Akin and whatever his real position is, Ryan's "redefining" rape, and Romney banning tampons, it's all just noise to scare and confuse the ladies

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:08 PM (QxSug)

331 >>>Akin didn't get hell because he said he wanted to ban all abortions, if he even wanted that. He got hell because he said something stupid about women's bodies being able to avoid pregnancy from a rape due to some kind of internal security system that does not exist and sounds bizarre when you even try to explain it.

>>>Mourdock produced a soundbite talking about children of rape being 'gifts from God' which also sounds ridiculous.

It is natural for partisans to claim, after a defeat, that it wasn't their issues, it was the "messaging." Obama and the Democrats did this after 2010; conservatives do it too.

I find it most often to be too easy a dodge, and easy way to avoid any uncomfortable examination of one's positions. It's too easy just to claim everything's about "messaging."

Messaging is always part of it. I don't think it's most of it. Good advertising can mitigate the poor performance of a bad product; bad advertising can retard the performance of a good one.

But the main driver will continue to be the product, not the PR.


Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:08 PM (LCRYB)

332 Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:03 PM (QxSug)

which does bring up a pet peave of mine... Why is the Government NOT bound by its own Laws?

Do you, by virtue of a JOB, have more RIGHTS? ie... a Police Officer has the RIGHT to keep and BEAR Arms, even OFF DUTY... but the Citizen does not?

A Police Officer can LIE to you... but you can't Lie to Him?

How the hell did we get to a Two Tier system of RIGHTS, based on your JOB?

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 22, 2013 03:09 PM (lZBBB)

333 Or, we could note the source of this poll (NBC/WSJ), note that its track record is always to lean left, and to note that today is the 40th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, and conclude that this is a media-invented push poll, designed to change, rather than measure, public opinion.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at January 22, 2013 03:09 PM (YYJjz)

334 More insidious, they fight harder to make sure pregnant women never learn of any negative health effects of abortion on women, especially later infertility/miscarriage.

Women's health my ass.
Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:06 PM (ZKzrr)



*climbs up on the highest box*


Plan. Motherfucking. B. Is. Not. A. Chiclet.


*enjoys view*

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 03:09 PM (VtjlW)

335 because I would think that a safe, strong, prosperous america is also a "women's issue," not just free shit and abortions.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:09 PM (QxSug)

336 I don't want to rehash the whole Akin thing, but his unfortunate choice of the word "legitimate" when referring to rape as opposed to a last minute rationale for an abortion by a woman that had put off the tough decision was his undoing.

Clearly legitimate and rape shouldn't be in the same sentence, paragraph etc.

The hubris in thinking that the MFM would allow any distinction to be made was his monumental political error.

Posted by: ontherocks at January 22, 2013 03:09 PM (aZ6ew)

337

Maybe we could designate abortion clinics as scissors-free zones.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 22, 2013 03:09 PM (1Y+hH)

338 Ace, when you cross into red herring land, you gotta go all the way, unless you write poll questions for a living, it's the intersection of last weeks gun fight: "having your dead rapist's baby - because you capped him a week later from 300 yards with you EBR" is how is should be phrased.

Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (TdK8A)

339 There are far less people than you think opposed to emergency contraception as a standard for Rape response. Even the Catholic Church agrees that its' not just morally acceptable, it's morally obligatory.
----
I'd like to see a citation on that.

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (5H6zj)

340 I don't think that thirds thing works out - by nature it should be a bell curve, so 2 standard deviations away probably don't give a damn either way and 2 sd's up are staunch die hards.

Posted by: Bigby's Itchy Trigger Finger at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (3ZtZW)

341 >>But here's what you don't understand.. The woman carrying it does not believe it to be a. a child, or b. murder.<<

Or she's repeating that mantra to herself as she goes through with the abortion and then suffers for the rest of her life because she really knew better

Posted by: typo dynamofo at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (WVMUQ)

342 291 Ejo,

why certainly and the answer will be "no!"

because the democrats have insinuated they can balance the budget by raising taxes on 5 guys nuking the military and stopping Tonsil Stealing Foot Butchering Doctors from overbilling Medicare!

we're doomed.

Outcrazy the crazies and start over.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (LRFds)

343 Just got a notice on my Ipad that Bibi and the "hard right" won the elections in Israel.

I hate the f'n AP

At least we know the hard right can still win. Wish it was in my country though.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (jZpAK)

344 *enjoys view*Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 03:09 PM (VtjlW)

* looks up skirt *

Nice.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (sbV1u)

345 If you can't work, then you are a drag on the "Collective".
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. http://tinyurl.com/ahc8poj at January 22, 2013 02:54 PM (l86i3)


True, but I am banking "on the wrong people doing the right thing." AKA they value free shit over murder. Probably not a good thing to leave to chance though, but the current situation is worse.

Most of my thoughts on policy usually never get passed second base. That's why I stay in the stands and shout some derogitory crap about JEF and let the TOP. MEN. Ron's hack out the policy details.

Posted by: cajun carrot at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (UZQM8)

346 But the murder of a child because the father was a scumbag who did a horrifically bad thing isn't alarming?

I've noticed none of the people who think it's cool to kill a baby because its father was a felon has the balls to tell the EBT mamas who aren't getting any child support because baby daddy in prison that their kids should be allowed to die.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (ZKzrr)

347 Every day I find it harder and harder to give a shit about politics.

Posted by: Spoily McSpoilerson at January 22, 2013 03:11 PM (vWT5O)

348 the Catholic Church agrees that its' not just morally acceptable, it's morally obligatory.

----




That is a lie.

Posted by: typo dynamofo at January 22, 2013 03:11 PM (WVMUQ)

349
"both Akin and Mourdock went there in response to questions about abortion in the event of rape."

Politics is the business of using words to shape perspective and opinion. When someone is too fucking stupid to know what they are saying will be used against them and their party, they have no business being in politics.

Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 03:11 PM (ZDsRL)

350 *climbs up on the highest box*





Plan. Motherfucking. B. Is. Not. A. Chiclet.





*enjoys view*



Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 03:09 PM (VtjlW)


*stands next to AtC's highest box*

*looks her right in the eye*

Hi.

*runs the fuck away really fast*

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 03:11 PM (da5Wo)

351 Fine. So be it. All actions have consequences. I know my position, and whatever public opinion is, well, I have my own. Abortion legal for cases of rape, incest, and whenever health of the mother is at risk, broadly defined. Beyond that, no. It's a matter of my conscience, my opinion, and public opinion is irrelevant.

Posted by: tubal at January 22, 2013 03:11 PM (BoE3Z)

352 On Friday I will be standing in the bitter cold with tens of thousands of other who will die on this hill, anyone going to be with me?
Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 02:55 PM (TdK8A)

I'll be at the Austin event on the 26th. Perry will be there too.

Posted by: Invictus at January 22, 2013 03:11 PM (OQpzc)

353 If no one had ever gotten an abortion, or had a family member who did, or drove a friend to get an abortion, or advised abortion...they might be able to think about the moral issues more clearly.

As it is, meh. Too many people are compromised.

Posted by: jeanne at January 22, 2013 03:11 PM (GdalM)

354 Plenty of Morons thought the whole Akin thing would just go away if no one talked about it.

Puh. I downloaded an iPad "news aggregation app" sometime in early to mid-October, out of pure curiosity. I hopped on the "politics" portion and started scanning.

Flipping through the pages, there was (I am not making this up) not one single article about Benghazi - which was actually fresh and going on - and there were 18... EIGHTEEN... ONE, EIGHT... articles with "Akin" in the headline - about something that had been said in August. You would think Todd Akin was running for president, and that Ambassador Stevens never f*cking existed.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at January 22, 2013 03:11 PM (46pA5)

355 Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (5H6zj)

The ethical and religious directives (ERDs) specifically number 36.
Link in my nic.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 22, 2013 03:11 PM (YrTJq)

356 Ace could be right...or we could be living in the age of the Great Persuader who is able to shift opinion on this kind of question through a bullying charisma. Personally, I'm quite depressed about our prospects for the next 4 years with FDR II in charge.

Posted by: Cricket at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (DrC22)

357 Politics 101 says do not engage in cultural / social issues. So why is this a political topic?

Sitting the rest of this thread out.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (fR83M)

358 303 Meremortal,

It is a tech school around the corner from university of Houston if i read correctly and heard right.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (LRFds)

359 After Bork-- most Republicans learned not to answer hypotheticals.

After Ryan-- hopefully most Republicans will not fall for the "where's your plan" gambit and give the party opposite specifics that might be doable in the future ( a variant of the hypothetical) to attack.

After Akin -- maybe they will stop falling for the exceptions to the rule trap.

Posted by: tasker at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (r2PLg)

360 318 Romeo13, it needs to do something easily detectable, like an orangutan's ass turning red, if it working. A purple dick would be appropriate.


Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 03:06 PM (TdK8A)



So... women's birth control should then have some Identifiable outward Characteristic??? Because if that is the standard... then to be F'N Equal... the Man should be able to tell as well.

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (lZBBB)

361 ynot

there is no such citation...

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (GVxQo)

362 To be fair, Ace, messaging is much more damaging when the MSM is amplifying it. One take away from the last election is that the MSM can be *very* effective at amplifying Obama campaign themes and applying them to targets of opportunity.
Speaking as someone who is pro-life himself, there was no real 2012 push by the pro-life movement as a whole to go hardline. What there was was some inexperienced politicians who hadn't learned the lesson that you can't scare moderates, plus a partial reflex on the part of pro-lifers that they needed to defend their guys, plus the Big Media microphone.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (ZMzpb)

363 looks up skirt *

Nice.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:10 PM (sbV1u) ___ ___ ___ Watch out for the boot!!!! (((STOMP))) *ouch*

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (1Y+hH)

364 I spent yesterday depressed out of my mind. I'm still depressed and disgusted with the idiots who put TFG back in office.

Can we please have something light-hearted to post about?

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (UOM48)

365 because I would think that a safe, strong, prosperous america is also a "women's issue," not just free shit and abortions.

Posted by: joeindc44
..........
That worked really well for Romney, didn't it?

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (f9c2L)

366 306 Toby 928th,

That is why we run red Toby.....

and be ready to fight to control the rot when we rebuild.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:13 PM (LRFds)

367 I don't think this is an issue that the federal government should be worried about. This should be a state issue. The feds should only be concerned about the quality of medicine and the medical environment.

If the states determine that their citizens want abortion, the government should make sure it's guidelines provide for the safest method possible.

Those that abort will answer to God later.

Posted by: © Sponge at January 22, 2013 03:13 PM (xmcEQ)

368 >>>I don't want to rehash the whole Akin thing, but his unfortunate choice of the word "legitimate" when referring to rape as opposed to a last minute rationale for an abortion by a woman that had put off the tough decision was his undoing.

that did not help and yet a month later Richard Mourdoch delievered a similar sentiment -- but, as we were instructed at the time (and I did not contradict it, because I didn't want him to lose) in a "more thoughtful, morally serious way," and then he lost too.

Claiming Mourdoch spoke poorly is a bit of revisionism -- at the time he said it, the right was in broad agreement that he had made a "heartfelt, thoughtful statement of principle, entirely unlike Akin's."

Now, I suppose that might have been PR bullshit, not wanting to lose ANOTHER race.

But he did lose.

It's not the messaging. The No Exceptions caucus is going to keep on losing when a substantial majority of the population wants at least the obvious exceptions (up to and including an abortion-on-demand regime).

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:13 PM (LCRYB)

369 indeed, I can imagine the exact opposite to be the case, that a person would be opposed to all abortion except for rape bortions.

However, this stupid loop hole accounts for (even throwing in medical safety and incest) what? 10 abortions a year?

let's just say rape-bortions

so, why can't mush mouthed GOP politicians make that point without killing a presidential race?

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:13 PM (QxSug)

370
Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (LRFds)


Yes, they have 3 campi. Scaring a lot of parents right now. Visitors from Chicago looking to study in Texas?

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 22, 2013 03:14 PM (1Y+hH)

371 Politics 101 says do not engage in cultural / social issues. So why is this a political topic?

Social Security recipient to worker ratio.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:14 PM (ZKzrr)

372 Watch out for the boot!!!! (((STOMP))) *ouch* Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (1Y+hH)

My position as the Chief of Logistics for Alextopia affords me some latitude.

However, I have radically shortened my leash here.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:14 PM (sbV1u)

373 357 Foghorn Leghorn,

why does the evangelical granola nut left get to have their state religion deemed "okay"?

Fact is the split is too far...break it up.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:14 PM (LRFds)

374 "I don't think this is an issue that the federal government should be worried about. This should be a state issue"

OK but for that to be the case you need a 5-4 majority in the Court, and for that you need...to win national elections. so this is kinda semantics

Posted by: JDP at January 22, 2013 03:14 PM (60GaT)

375 so even the most hardline Anti Abortion folks should support this as no life is ever created. You have heard ofcondoms and the Church's position on these right? Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 03:00 PM (m2CN7) But do you understand why the Church believes this? Because that's pretty germane to the entire argument.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:04 PM (sbV1u)

Yes that is why I wrote what I wrote. This should have no effect on the 'hardline' anit abortionfolks as male contraceptive has been around for awhile. Maybe I missed the point of the original posting as I am responding to a response of the original that contained that snippet.

Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 03:15 PM (m2CN7)

376 Hang in there Jane.

Posted by: tasker at January 22, 2013 03:15 PM (r2PLg)

377 That is why we run red Toby.....

and be ready to fight to control the rot when we rebuild.


Yeah well, what other choice do I have? I'll fight it out on this line until the end. I'm just not optimistic any more that I won't die on my feet.

Posted by: toby928© sips the sweet tea of despair at January 22, 2013 03:15 PM (evdj2)

378 So many theories about where the country is now.
The data for all of them is weaker than the crap floated about "Climate Change."

Not sorry to burst some bubbles about this, but:
1) So-cons didn't cost us this election.
2) "Immigration" didn't cost us this election
3) Stay-at-home voters did not cost us this election

Romney ABSOLUTELY DID NOT make enough of a case that average Americans could tell he'd be any better than "The Historic, First, Black President." As far as they could tell, he had no case other than "business experience" that showed he'd be less of a screwup than the SCOAMF.

Why? Because he doesn't seem to know why the Constitution worked when it was new, or why it was created the way it was. He couldn't explain it over six weeks, as well as Mark Levin, for one example, explains it in ten minutes. It wasn't in him to be able to do it. He couldn't do it. He refused to do it. So he lost.

Of course, fraud helped Obama creep over the top in a few cases, but no one with a "high Q factor" on the right seems to give a rat's ass about that for some obscure reason. But they damn sure want to crucify So-cons, instead. And, most mystifying of all, they want to be called Conservative while doing so.

I'm not a conservative, and I sure as hell don't try to tell Conservatives who they are. But I recognize the importance of the so-cons to the Restoration movement. Trying to get rid of them is the same thing as joining the other side.

Now I know Ace is just "asking questions" here. Hey, I'm just providing answers. I.E., not directing this at him.

Posted by: K-Bob at January 22, 2013 03:15 PM (vwgl0)

379 alexthechick, are you still here? I collected some balls from some miscreants on the ONT a few nights ago with the promise to hand them over to you.

Can't remember exactly who they belonged to, but one of them may have been BCochran. *cough*

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 22, 2013 03:16 PM (UOM48)

380 This makes me sad....Obama's promised fracturing of the Republican party is proceeding rather well.
I am left with a choice of voting for a party that "anti" everything I believe in, or supporting politicians who are embarassed of me, but I do happen to agree with on one or two items.
Pretty slim pickings....think I'll just go fishing instead and let my "betters" figure out how to divide whatever minimal spoils are left

Posted by: FITP at January 22, 2013 03:16 PM (i22hv)

381 @Pheonixgirl,

FFS, so I have to cut and paste the damanble directive here.
Fine Directive 36 (again, Link in my nic)
36. Compassionate and understanding care should be given to a person who is the victim of sexual assault. Health care providers should cooperate with law enforcement officials and offer the person psychological and spiritual support as well as accurate medical information. A female who has been raped should be able to defend herself against a potential conception from the sexual assault. If, after appropriate testing, there is no evidence that conception has occurred
already, she may be treated with medications that would prevent ovulation, sperm capacitation, or fertilization. It is not permissible, however, to initiate or to recommend treatments that have as their purpose or direct effect the removal, destruction, or interference with the implantation of a fertilized ovum.

Accepted protocol per the USCCB is a simple urine pregnancy test which in a quick reporting situation would not be positive as a result of the rape (it may still be positive from actions prior to the rape of course.) See also work by Daniel Sumasy on this. (Or the late Kevin O'Rourke's work.)

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 22, 2013 03:16 PM (YrTJq)

382 OK, I see what you're saying now about messaging. Agreed, its not the way you're against the rape exception, its the fact that you're against it at all.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at January 22, 2013 03:17 PM (ZMzpb)

383
371Politics 101 says do not engage in cultural / social issues. So why is this a political topic?


Social Security recipient to worker ratio.
Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:14 PM (ZKzrr)

This is why a liberalized abortion policy needs to go hand-in-hand with euthanization program.

Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 03:17 PM (ZDsRL)

384 Mourdock's comment was an example of poor wording, though.

the whole "good things can come out of awful situations" idea.

though sure the topic was not a great example of this

Posted by: JDP at January 22, 2013 03:17 PM (60GaT)

385 *stands next to AtC's highest box*

*looks her right in the eye*

Hi.

*runs the fuck away really fast*
Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 03:11 PM (da5Wo)



Awwww, it's so nice of you to take Slayer for a run!

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 03:17 PM (VtjlW)

386 the government should make sure it's guidelines provide for the safest method possible.>>

The state can take care of those concerns also. The feds should be limited to only the things a state can't do like war.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at January 22, 2013 03:17 PM (81UWZ)

387 **365 because I would think that a safe, strong, prosperous america is also a "women's issue," not just free shit and abortions.

Posted by: joeindc44
..........
That worked really well for Romney, didn't it?**

I think that Romney's sin is one of general which GOP person farted...

that is, I doubt that he once raised this point, instead choosing to pander blindly when this came up.

I look at the bullshit feminist question in the second debate as a turning point (there was another one in the second debate) in election in which Romney basically conceded the whole market place of ideas to the left by not trouncing the war on women idiocy and by not trouncing the feminist bullshit shiboleth on wage disparity.

But what can you do? Standing up for our convictions is bad. OTH, didn't Obama pretend not to be a gun grabber so as to not scare the gun crowd? I guess it worked for him.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:17 PM (QxSug)

388 293 Note.... I was careful to say Anti Abortion Folks... not anti Birth Control folks...

...C'est la vie. Ingested and surgically implanted birth control aborts the impregnated egg.

Perhaps fundamentalists enjoying sex for pleasure so long as there's no abortion utilize the diaphragm, rubbers and foam spermicides?

There's always the permanent nip fix option.


Posted by: panzernashorn at January 22, 2013 03:17 PM (MhA4j)

389 Who directed this shitty movie?

Posted by: 10,000 word movie review graveyard at January 22, 2013 03:18 PM (wV2fE)

390 We could reduce the amount of abortions by doubling the amount of welfare that we give

Posted by: occam at January 22, 2013 03:18 PM (CIz0N)

391 Sitting the rest of this thread out.Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at January 22, 2013 03:12 PM (fR83M) --- --- --- - - -Ask a question about something mechanical, car-related or gun-parts related and this topic will be gone with the wind...

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 22, 2013 03:18 PM (1Y+hH)

392 *stands next to AtC's highest box*

*looks her right in the eye*

Hi.

*runs the fuck away really fast*


ISWYDT. Nice job of distracting her while Sean got a freebie look.
Ready to climb back up? The line is forming fast.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 22, 2013 03:18 PM (jZpAK)

393 It's not a strawman. We'll just have to agree to disagree. You (or at least many) seem to think that their positions are politically viable; they just didn't express them properly.

Except that that's not what I said at all, hence the accusation of strawmanning. I don't recall the specific wording of the questions, but they should either have weasel-worded around it without invoking magical uterus goalies or simply FYNQed it.

And of course lacking that they should've dropped out of the race. Akin in particular had strong primary opponents who would've been ready to go; I don't know as much about what was going on in Ohio.

Posted by: Ian S. at January 22, 2013 03:18 PM (B/VB5)

394 The USCCB is not the Vatican. Moreover, that document is an advisory on how Catholic health care providers should/may act on behalf of their patients, who may or may not by Roman Catholics themselves.

Giving a non-Catholic birth control (such as ones that inhibit ovulation or even spermacides), which is all they permit (not treatments that kill or prevent implantation of fertilized eggs), is not equivalent in the practitioner's hand to abortion.

The Roman Catholic Church, including teh document you cite, is not "silent" on implantation or the humanity of the fertilized egg.

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 03:18 PM (5H6zj)

395 Nice job of distracting her while Sean got a freebie look.

Ready to climb back up? The line is forming fast.


How many tickets for this ride?

Posted by: EC at January 22, 2013 03:19 PM (GQ8sn)

396 Looks like the college is a college for blacks. Probably full of NOLA refugees.

Posted by: Soona at January 22, 2013 03:19 PM (N2KVu)

397 "
Romney ABSOLUTELY DID NOT make enough of a case that average
Americans could tell he'd be any better than "The Historic, First, Black
President."

you're minimalizing things here. a lot of Americans are ideologically in agreement with Obama to one extent or another. there were much less "post-partisan" smoke and mirrors this time around.

Posted by: JDP at January 22, 2013 03:19 PM (60GaT)

398 At the rate things are going, in four years a majority will say that forced euthanasia of the elderly, the infirm, gun owners and Republicans should be legal too.

Posted by: Welfarista at January 22, 2013 03:19 PM (Xv7f/)

399 I hate the death penalty too. It would have crimped my prison coke parties.

Posted by: Richard Speck at January 22, 2013 03:20 PM (yJYwC)

400 398
At the rate things are going, in four years a majority will say that
forced euthanasia of the elderly, the infirm, gun owners and Republicans
should be legal too.


Posted by: Welfarista at January 22, 2013 03:19 PM (Xv7f/)
Just a bunch of Europe wannabes, that Washington bunch.

Posted by: tubal at January 22, 2013 03:20 PM (BoE3Z)

401 * looks up skirt *Nice.
----
What, you couldn't take a picture and share? selfish bastard...

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at January 22, 2013 03:20 PM (SO2Q8)

402 I agree that Romney was a weak candidate. I don't think it was conservatism that was repudiated; it was a candidate who did not really know how to express it.

Beyond that, it's not clear to me what the future holds. I'd like to get on board with those who claim that the Chocolate Jesus is going to have a disastrous second term, leading to a conservative revival.

But I'm not sure I believe it. He is too clever, and the press is too accommodating.

Posted by: Cricket at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (DrC22)

403 alexthechick, are you still here? I collected some balls from some miscreants on the ONT a few nights ago with the promise to hand them over to you.

Can't remember exactly who they belonged to, but one of them may have been BCochran. *cough*
Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 22, 2013 03:16 PM (UOM4



I am and thanks! I'll move some of the belljars around to make room.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (VtjlW)

404 At the rate things are going, in four years a majority will say that
forced euthanasia of the elderly, the infirm, gun owners and Republicans
should be legal too.


It's not going to take that long.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (ZKzrr)

405 Do you think as many people would be for abortion if they had to watch one being performed?

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (8sCoq)

406 The link tsr is so proud of is merely telling RC health care providers what they are and are not allowed to do in cooperating with the authorities and treating their (non-RC) patients.

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (5H6zj)

407 Exit polls see Netanyahu re-elected as PM; Lapid huge surprise with 19 mandates
Polls marking conclusion of 2013 elections are predicting Likud-Beiteinu win with 31 mandates; Yair Lapid's Yesh Atid party comes in second with 19 Knesset seats; record number of voters surged to polling stations to make mark on 19th Knesset
Ynet reporters
Published: 01.22.13, 22:02 / Israel News



Exit polls marking the conclusion of the 2013 national elections are predicting re-election for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, but the big surprise was Yair Lapid's Yesh Atid party, which, according to the polls, won 19 mandates.

According to exit polls released by Israel's main television networks, the joint Likud-Yisrael Beiteinu ticket won 31 Knesset seats in Tuesday's vote, while Shelly Yachimovich's Labor Party gained 16 to 18 mandates. The rightist Habayit Hayehudi party, headed by Naftali Bennett, came in third and will have 13 or 14 representatives in the 19th Knesset, the exit polls predicted.

The polls showed the the rightist bloc won a combined 61 Knesset seats, while the leftist bloc won 59 mandates.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (9Bj8R)

408 Ah...the mythical Latino voter. Really folks, what do the following people have in common? A guy from Buenos Aires whose last name is Del Vecchio, an Indian woman from the mountains of Guatemala who may not even speak Spanish, and someone from the Dominican Republic who is of mixed race? They may speak the same language and perhaps share the same religion, but that's about it.

Posted by: Steff McKee at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (RcG3a)

409 @366

The anti- life blue staters are welcome to their "choice".

Just remember that word "choice" when the red state divorce comes up this time around.

No more Lincolns.

Posted by: T.Hunter - let it burn at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (EZl54)

410 The Stupid Bitch demographic was essential to Obama's election; he does all their thinking for them. Their brain capacity cannot accommodate morality, basic counting skills, or critical thinking.

If he instructs them to self-select out, they will self-select out.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (Ec6wH)

411 well, I think Romney assumed the sale on how fucked the economy is, but apparently everything's fine, so Romney should've been a little more aggressive.

Or, God, forbid, the public does like Obama's stuff. He is, after all, a blank slate for people to project their silly hopes and dreams upon.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (QxSug)

412 This is why a liberalized abortion policy needs to go hand-in-hand with euthanization program.
Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 03:17 PM (ZDsRL)


--------------------------------------------------


Oh, it's coming. Yes indeed. It's coming.

Posted by: Soona at January 22, 2013 03:22 PM (N2KVu)

413 Check out Question 20, only 39% approve of abortion on demand, there is 41% don't know, another points out that 67% oppose abortion on demand,
drop the fainting couches.

Posted by: cardinal fang at January 22, 2013 03:22 PM (Jsiw/)

414 390 Occam,

wonderful I agree now...why we should triple it....

FREE SHIT FOR ALL!

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:22 PM (LRFds)

415 I am and thanks! I'll move some of the belljars around to make room. Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (VtjlW)

Will that jar be labeled "Abby Normal"?

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:22 PM (sbV1u)

416
HA. Obama isn't fracturing the Republican Party, the Republicans in DC are fracturing the Republican party.

They simply don't believe the rhetoric they tell their constituents, but also they can't see their constituents are bailing out.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 22, 2013 03:22 PM (p/cQy)

417 It's not my sin if I hand you a condom. It is my sin if I use it myself. And it is always my sin if I participate in an abortion.

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 03:22 PM (5H6zj)

418 "I agree that Romney was a weak candidate. I don't think it was
conservatism that was repudiated; it was a candidate who did not really
know how to express it."

well i don't say this to equivocate, i really think it was both.

after an election like this, everyone with their pet issues wants to blame the other guys' pet issues...but i think everyone should be able to agree that both 47% and Legitimate Akin played their role, even if the degree of one or the other can be debated.

Posted by: JDP at January 22, 2013 03:22 PM (60GaT)

419 At the rate things are going, in four years a majority will say that forced euthanasia of gun owners should be legal too.

You might want to pass that by us first. Before we decide retroactive abortions are legal.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 22, 2013 03:22 PM (jZpAK)

420 @396

Well, if it near UH and not on the campus, its in a pretty rough place. I've never heard of it either and I went to UH. Wouldn't surprise me though, once you set foot off campus you hit the hood.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 03:22 PM (t06LC)

421 So, when doProgsstart going after church's that don't peddle the pro-abortion line or won't marry gays?? Gee, the 21st Century sure are getting "interesting".

Posted by: puddleglum at January 22, 2013 03:23 PM (PU2+t)

422 Alright all you southern morons, Charlie Rangel says you need to get your minds right:

RANGEL: 'Some of the Southern Areas Have Cultures We Have to Overcome'...

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 22, 2013 03:23 PM (8sCoq)

423 Reagan was actually pretty extremist on abortion in 1980. What Reagan was a squish on was foreign policy until he dumped haig.

Posted by: tennvols87 at January 22, 2013 03:23 PM (Tqh1Y)

424 I really appreciate pro-choice Republicans choosing today to tut-tut pro-lifers.

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 03:23 PM (5H6zj)

425 Jeebus. I just remembered seeing a promo for a new reality show about wealthy Atlanta women (not the Real Hos). One of the women is the daughter of an Atlanta abortionist, and she even works part-time in her dad's office.

Seriously.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 22, 2013 03:23 PM (UOM48)

426 Do you think as many people would be for abortion if they had to watch one being performed?

PETA likes to make the same argument wrt slaughterhouses and meat packing, and there are plenty of people who've worked those places and will cheerfully down a steak.

Posted by: Ian S. at January 22, 2013 03:23 PM (B/VB5)

427 I find it most often to be too easy a dodge, and easy way to avoid any uncomfortable examination of one's positions. It's too easy just to claim everything's about "messaging."

Not the messaging, ace. The delivery method. Akin and Mourdock both said very hamfisted things. But neither of them said anything about banning abortions. It was the MEDIA that turned their cloddish phrasing about the sanctity of life into a story about the Republicans' zeal to ban abortion, overturn Roe v. Wade, and resurrectthe era of back alley abortionists with rusty wire hangers; back alley abortionists who, if you listen to your typical pro-abortion harridan shrieking from the platform of Planned Parenthood, are still plying their trade on poor minority women to this day despite the proliferation of abortion clinics. Apparently having abortion on demand isn't enough to put the butchers out of business. But I digress.

You can't blame the messaging when the message delivery system is controlled by an enemy force; and yes, the MFM is the enemy. In WWII I wouldn't have trusted an Allied communique if it was delivered by a woman in a beret bearing a baguette and claiming to be a member of the French Resistance named Cosette. When someone tries so hard to convince you of what they're SUPPOSED to be (like an objective, non-biased press), then you can be certain they're precisely the opposite. Anything they say, or that they claim was said, is suspect.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 03:23 PM (4df7R)

428 404 HeatherRadish,

I give it two weeks after the Fed shuts off the printer.

You?

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:23 PM (LRFds)

429 Ah...the mythical Latino voter. Really folks, what do the following people have in common? A guy from Buenos Aires whose last name is Del Vecchio, an Indian woman from the mountains of Guatemala who may not even speak Spanish, and someone from the Dominican Republic who is of mixed race? They may speak the same language and perhaps share the same religion, but that's about it.
Posted by: Steff McKee at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (RcG3a)

They'll always have marxism.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 03:24 PM (t06LC)

430 422
Alright all you southern morons, Charlie Rangel says you need to get your minds right:

RANGEL: 'Some of the Southern Areas Have Cultures We Have to Overcome'...




Come on down Charlie. Let's talk.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 22, 2013 03:25 PM (UOM48)

431 And it is always my sin if I participate in an abortion.

And the only way you get to choose not to participate is to go without medical insurance and pay the Obamacare fine/tax.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:25 PM (ZKzrr)

432 Of course, Leftists being all abortiony, if on a personal level.........

Posted by: tubal at January 22, 2013 03:25 PM (BoE3Z)

433 409 T Hunter,

amen....I fail to see why in this modern age we need the aggregated power of the entire union....

the democrats want a less onerous on the world stage United States well Donks do I have a deal for YOU how's about we dismantle the whole ball of wax and break up?

I'm just as tired of your EPA as you are of my DoD....

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:25 PM (LRFds)

434 Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 03:18 PM (5H6zj)

The USCCB documents still are subject to review by the CDF, and 36 is as old as the ERDs. Considering 45-47 got frisked by the CDF, I'm fairly certain 36 is considered acceptable.

Furthmore, at no point did I argue they were silent on the fertilized egg. What I did argue was they emergency contraception is to be provided to rape victims after sufficient assurance that fertilization has not occurred.

Now people's way to documenting this differs, but the primary method used in the US (which is the only place I'm familiar with) is a simple urine pregnancy test.

I will concede that there is a wing of the church convinced that all EC drugs are by definition abortifacents, however I have not seen this response from the bishops with regard to rape treatment. (As for if they use it in other places, I haven't bothered to pay attention.)

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 22, 2013 03:25 PM (YrTJq)

435 >both Akin and Mourdock went there in response to questions about abortion in the event of rape. They were trying to justify or at least make room for the hard-line position of no abortion in case of rape.

Doesn't matter. If tomorrow a conservative politician was asked to defend the second amendment and his response was that sometimes you need a gun to keep the local blacks from getting too uppity, you can't say that 'the 2nd amendment advocates went too far on this one'. It was the case of one guy saying something wrong and stupid.

The same for Mourdock and Akin. It's not like Akin was exposing the controversial 'women's bodies have elaborate self-defense mechanisms in the case of avoiding pregnancy from rape' part of the pro-life platform. He was out on his own saying something idiotic.

Posted by: Crude at January 22, 2013 03:26 PM (P0eiX)

436 334 More insidious, they fight harder to make sure pregnant women never learn of any negative health effects of abortion on women, especially later infertility/miscarriage.

Women's health my ass.
Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:06 PM (ZKzrr)

Thank you! I cannot begin to number the women I have talked to that are completely clueless about the health risks that go with abortion. People seriously seem to think that they walk into the clinic, have some magic happen, and miraculously walk out completely consequence free. Never occurs to them that the "procedure" could be dangerous and have lasting fertility and various other health issues as a result.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at January 22, 2013 03:26 PM (qFpRI)

437 So I never really believed there was a true "pro-life majority"

Neither did I.

Not when over 50% of the population are women.

Posted by: beach at January 22, 2013 03:26 PM (LpQbZ)

438 I think it's extraordinary alarming for a woman to hear that one party would like to force her to deliver her rapist's child, against her will (because, Moral Clarity). There is not enough sugarcoating available to make this non-alarming. -----

The trick is to stop focussing on this red herring - which it is - though an effective one.

The question I have is what is the best position to support toget to a position where abortion is basically no more in this country. Politically, the answer may be to support prohibitions on all abortions, other than rape/incest. The upside is this maybe a winnable argument, the downside is it is intellectually and morally dishonest - thus not winnable. By supporting this position, do you ultimately weaken your position as a whole, because you have shown it is no longer morally grounded? Alternatively, if you can get the majority of the country to agree that abortion is bad in all cases other than rape/incest, my guess is that the public will shift on that issue to. From a tactical perspective of the best way to minimize as many abortions, as possible, I'm not sure what the right approach is.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 03:26 PM (gmeXX)

439 MWR @ 427 - I agree completely that the Media is the issue here, though Republicans tend to say stupid things, too. But when Joe Biden says stupid things, they are NEVER reported by the Media. Akin and Mourdock, 24/7.

The problem has become that the only voice that all politicians in DC care about is that of the NY Times, CNN, etc.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at January 22, 2013 03:27 PM (xjpRj)

440 405 Do you think as many people would be for abortion if they had to watch one being performed?


----

That argument has always annoyed me. Most abortions are first trimester abortions and wouldn't *look* any worse than most other outpatient surgeries, which of course most people don't particularly want to watch anyway. They're still evil; murder doesn't have to be gory to be murder and a person doesn't have to be recognizable to be a human being. This argument makes it sound like a first-trimester abortion would be okay because the baby really does look like a tiny tumor or a swallowed olive pit at that stage.

Now, late-term abortions this works for, but most people are already against that. It's the justification of killing babies before they get cute that is really the problem, it all creeps up from there.

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 22, 2013 03:27 PM (b+8h9)

441 Ah...the mythical Latino voter. Really folks, what do the following people have in common? A guy from Buenos Aires whose last name is Del Vecchio, an Indian woman from the mountains of Guatemala who may not even speak Spanish, and someone from the Dominican Republic who is of mixed race? They may speak the same language and perhaps share the same religion, but that's about it.

Posted by: Steff McKee at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (RcG3a)


What the left will never admit is when they say "Latino" they mean "Mexican."

So yeah, fuck you, Cubans, Guatemalans, Puerto Ricans, and Dominicans! Next time you want a little respect, get a bigger, more porous border with us. Then we'll talk.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 03:27 PM (4df7R)

442 Do you think as many people would be for abortion if they had to watch one being performed?
Posted by: Jones in CO at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (8sCoq)

Or be forced to look at the dismembered parts even?

Posted by: Invictus at January 22, 2013 03:27 PM (OQpzc)

443
As I contemplate the future death at my hands of my neighbor, by crushing his skull will a disgarded human femur for drinking the last of the tree bark soup- I couldn't care less about the political poo-poo of this issue. (h/t to EOJ for the imagery).

Posted by: Beefy Meatball at January 22, 2013 03:27 PM (yn6XZ)

444 Has anyone broached the possibility of a 'bandwagon effect' here, where apparent Proglodyte ascendancy influences what people say they believe? It might account for some of the shift, though I suspect 'general fecklessness' covers most of it.

Remember: When it Burns, some will burn who are innocent...but so will many who aren't...

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Meadow Party 2016 at January 22, 2013 03:28 PM (GBXon)

445 >>It's not the messaging. The No Exceptions caucus
is going to keep on losing when a substantial majority of the
population wants at least the obvious exceptions (up to and including an
abortion-on-demand regime).
Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:13 PM (LCRYB)



My point was that Akin's judgement indicated monumentally poor political judgement and prolly politically fatal hubris.

The messaging component is completely abused by the MFM and to not understand that as an opposition candidate should be enough for disqualification for the GOP or whoever carries the flag going forward.

I would admit to my own preference (as candidate) in as non threatening a message as possible for the sake of honesty and not allow for the distraction.

Posted by: ontherocks at January 22, 2013 03:28 PM (aZ6ew)

446
I think that Romney's sin is one of general which GOP person farted...



that is, I doubt that he once raised this point, instead choosing to pander blindly when this came up.

.............
Yes, he did make this point.. over and over on the campaign trail.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 22, 2013 03:28 PM (f9c2L)

447 >>>i think everyone should be able to agree that both 47% and Legitimate Akin played their role, even if the degree of one or the other can be debated.

sure the 47% thing was disastrous. Had we still been in the primaries when he said it, I would have retracted support and gone with someone I didn't like but who hadn't said this wonderful thing. But we weren't able to change at that point (coincidentally enough).

>>>Not the messaging, ace. The delivery method. Akin and Mourdock both said very hamfisted things. But neither of them said anything about banning abortions. It was the MEDIA that turned their cloddish phrasing about the sanctity of life into a story about the Republicans' zeal to ban abortion, overturn Roe v. Wade, and resurrectthe era of back alley abortionists with rusty wire hangers; back alley abortionists who, if you listen to your typical pro-abortion harridan shrieking from the platform of Planned Parenthood, are still plying their trade on poor minority women to this day despite the proliferation of abortion clinics. Apparently having abortion on demand isn't enough to put the butchers out of business. But I digress.


Oh god of course they were talking about precisely that. Akin was specifically asked about his PRO LIFE POLITICAL POSITION and the rape situation was offered to him as a chance to give his thoughts on his no-exceptions policy; he reaffirmed it.

Mourdoch too was talking about his PRO LIFE, NO EXCEPTIONS POLITICAL POSITION.

What, do you think they were just talking about philosophy? Good Lord.

They were asked about live political questions, on matters they had offered a political answer for previously (announcing their positions, questionaires, etc) during political events during campaign season.

And it's your claim they really weren't talking about abortion policy, but were just talking about the sanctity of life in an abstract, philosophical, makes-no-matter way?

Please.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:28 PM (LCRYB)

448 and resurrectthe era of back alley abortionists with rusty wire hangers

Somewhat ironic that they support the Kermit Gosnells of the world, and block every attempt to regulate clinics the way other outpatient clinics are regulated.

Women's health! How dare you troglodyte anti-choicers require abortionists to use sterile instruments!?! Now, let's get back to that bill about inspecting hair-braiding businesses....

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:28 PM (ZKzrr)

449
People that oppose euthanasia need to take a tour of their local hospital.

The number of reasons people are being kept alive are varied, but not very good. Some are being penetrated with tubes and hoses because their families think it shows how much they love them, keeping them breathing by any means.

Some are receiving extraordinary measures because it's good business. High profit procedures with next to no risk if things go wrong. ICU beds aren't cheap and they don't bring in a dime unless someone is in them.

In almost every case like this, the patient isn't someone who will, in the very best of circumstances, return to their previous life. It's simply a choice of dying later rather than sooner.

How some outsiders can condone the pain and anguish these poor, elderly people need to go through just to satisfy the family guilt or profit motives is beyond me.

Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 03:28 PM (ZDsRL)

450 tsrblke

thank you for posting it, i had read it in the link in you nic.

the catholic bishops will have a lot to answer for in their after life and i hope i get to watch....it will be fun to see them squirm....

their directive is interesting... they are walking a very fine line....they won't allow an abortion but will allow a blocking of implantation if the initial test comes back as negative for implantation....good luck on explaining that to someone who wants to rid themselves of the innocent life once conception has occurred....if you had only come in sooner dear....

thankfully you don't make the rules as to denying anyone raped from the child, some woman don't believe in abortion in any case whether she's been raped or not....why should the innocent life be swept away and considered an abomination? a rape victim will remember the rape whether the resulting child is killed or not



Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 03:29 PM (GVxQo)

451 MWR @ 427 - I agree completely that the Media is the issue here, though Republicans tend to say stupid things, too. But when Joe Biden says stupid things, they are NEVER reported by the Media. Akin and Mourdock, 24/7.

Exactly. Harry Reid calling Obama a "clean black man" with "no negro dialect" is completely forgotten and ignored.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 03:29 PM (4df7R)

452 well, I think Romney assumed the sale on how fucked the economy is, but apparently everything's fine, so Romney should've been a little more aggressive.

Yeah. People simply didn't feel the economy was as bad as it was. There's a number of reasons (the media ranking highly, of course), but Romney assumed that issue was a slam-dunk. While the Obama campaign ignored all the issues and simply sold that Romney was a weird scary unhip rich guy with magical underwear.

Posted by: Ian S. at January 22, 2013 03:29 PM (B/VB5)

453 the democrats want a less onerous on the world stage United States well Donks do I have a deal for YOU how's about we dismantle the whole ball of wax and break up?

I'm just as tired of your EPA as you are of my DoD....

Seconded.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 22, 2013 03:29 PM (jZpAK)

454 And it is always my sin if I participate in an abortion.And the only way you get to choose not to participate is to go without medical insurance and pay the Obamacare fine/tax.
Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:25 PM (ZKzrr)

Wouldn't it be my sin if I didn't object to killing a baby?

Posted by: Invictus at January 22, 2013 03:29 PM (OQpzc)

455 alexthechick, are you still here? I collected
some balls from some miscreants on the ONT a few nights ago with the
promise to hand them over to you.



Can't remember exactly who they belonged to, but one of them may have been BCochran. *cough*


Posted by: Jane D'oh at January 22, 2013 03:16 PM (UOM4



-------------


I am and thanks! I'll move some of the belljars around to make room.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 03:21 PM (VtjlW)

----------------Will that jar be labeled "Abby Normal"?

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:22 PM (sbV1u)


The fuck ???? I see how it is. Well every last one of you can pucker up and kiss my lilly white, freckled ginger ass.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 03:29 PM (da5Wo)

456 and a dnc is not acceptable if there has been implantation.....and a catholic hospital would not be a catholic hospital if they allowed one after conception........

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 03:30 PM (GVxQo)

457 Many places would even go further and allow uterine scraping and a DC. (The Catholic church sits that one out, but to be honest, I bet they happen in Catholic ERs.)
---

^This is an utter lie.

The Catholic Church does not sit this out. They explicitly forbid it. I don't give a fuck what your hunches tell you about RC hospitals. Church teaching is completely clear.

And I guarantee you that no obedient Roman Catholic priest would advise an observant Roman Catholic woman to use birth control or the morning after pill.

Not everyone sees children as a punishment.

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 03:30 PM (5H6zj)

458
Stanley Ann should have aborted her baby.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 22, 2013 03:30 PM (p/cQy)

459 @444

That was my thought further upthread. It would also account for the shift on gay marriage among the minority communities.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 22, 2013 03:30 PM (t06LC)

460 Mourdoch too was talking about his PRO LIFE, NO EXCEPTIONS POLITICAL POSITION.

Except he wasn't. In a debate, Joe Donnelly asked and Mourdock said children are a blessing. The MFM blew that up into MOURDOCK WANTS TO RAPE ALL THE WOMENZ TO HARVEST BABIES.

Some people can't tell the difference; some people don't want to tell a difference.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:30 PM (ZKzrr)

461 Nood

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:31 PM (sbV1u)

462 Enjoy your truce, pro-choicers. Don't expect me to shed a tear for you when the Democrats take away something you do care about.

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 03:31 PM (5H6zj)

463 444 cavil,

that is why i advocate Run red....

I think this time the runners will not be the swayable but the scared and the angry and we will work with a righteous fury to help our new homes rebuild,

Divorce

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:31 PM (LRFds)

464 i'm pro life by the way...if you want an abortion, for what ever reason and can find someone to do it...fine pay for it yourself...it's not your right to have one on my dime

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 03:31 PM (GVxQo)

465 @433

sven ,

Abortion ,gun control, and domestic terrorism will be the stated "issues".

The real issues will be all that lovely red state revenue that would potentially be lost.

Control freak soon to be divorced spouse seeks to possess and control life , life liberty and property of soon to be ex.

It won't go quietly.

Posted by: T.Hunter - let it burn at January 22, 2013 03:32 PM (EZl54)

466 451
MWR @ 427 - I agree completely that the Media is the issue here,
though Republicans tend to say stupid things, too. But when Joe Biden
says stupid things, they are NEVER reported by the Media. Akin and
Mourdock, 24/7.



Exactly. Harry Reid calling Obama a "clean black man" with "no negro dialect" is completely forgotten and ignored.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 03:29 PM (4df7R)
The problem is the "Media" sets the agenda, frames the debate, whatever, Every.Single. Time. For the Left, and for the Right as well. We always play their game, and we always play defense. The cards all have folded edges.

Posted by: tubal at January 22, 2013 03:33 PM (BoE3Z)

467 Well every last one of you can pucker up and kiss my lilly white, freckled ginger ass. Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 03:29 PM (da5Wo)

Better put some SPF 450 on that thing.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:33 PM (sbV1u)

468 >>>he trick is to stop focussing on this red herring - which it is - though an effective one.

It's a red herring? In what way? Because it's rare? That doesn't make it a "red herring," guy -- Murder itself is rare, but we have gotten around to making a law about this rare event, anyway.

If you're claiming "because it's rare we can/should ignore it" -- wrong. Rape is rare. Murder is rare. Homosexuality is in fact rare.

Treating capital gains as earned income for carry-forward taxation purposes is also rare. We have a law about it though. (By the way, I've completely fucked up the language there... someone will have to sort me out.)

It's rare that we should have widows of railway workers killed on the job. And yet we have a special law awarding them certain special benefits.

It's rare that someone should want to bring explosives on an airplane... yet we have a law about this rare event.

Red herring my ass. "Red herring" is just your code for "I dont' want to talk about a particular issue that hurts my position."

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:33 PM (LCRYB)

469 But when Joe Biden says stupid things, they are NEVER reported by the Media. Akin and Mourdock, 24/7.

No argument here, but ultimately it's the same principle as "if you win convincingly enough the refs can't throw the game". You don't answer questions on rape, like, ever, except to say that Rape Is Bad Mmkay. Ditto on saying that 47% of the country are brain-dead leeches.

Posted by: Ian S. at January 22, 2013 03:33 PM (B/VB5)

470 And it's your claim they really weren't talking about abortion policy, but were just talking about the sanctity of life in an abstract, philosophical, makes-no-matter way? Please.

And you can continue to act like what Mourdock and Akin said was somehow a broad brush pro-life opinion, ace, and it doesn't make it anymore true. But the MFM's choice to make it APPEAR that way is what damned both of their campaigns, far more than anything they themselves said.

I realize you're not going to bend on this, but you're nonetheless completely wrong.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 22, 2013 03:33 PM (4df7R)

471 I don't think pro-life can win any more. Conservatives would do well to get out of the social issues business. Abortion and gay marriage will not bring America down. An economic crash will.

PEACE THRU STRENGTH THRU A HEALTHY ECONOMY




fire away...

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 22, 2013 03:34 PM (8sCoq)

472 How some outsiders can condone the pain and anguish these poor, elderly
people need to go through just to satisfy the family guilt or profit
motives is beyond me.


Holy God complex, Batman.

Well, I'm convinced. jwest knows better than any patient or family who should be allowed to live and who should be forced to die.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:34 PM (ZKzrr)

473 >>>Except he wasn't. In a debate, Joe Donnelly asked and Mourdock said children are a blessing. The MFM blew that up into MOURDOCK WANTS TO RAPE ALL THE WOMENZ TO HARVEST BABIES.

I guess it's just a coincidence that his announced, stated, repeated position was in fact no abortion, no exceptions.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:35 PM (LCRYB)

474 423. Reagan was actually pretty extremist on abortion in 1980. What Reagan was a squish on was foreign policy until he dumped haig.

Posted by: tennvols87 at January 22, 2013 03:23 PM (Tqh1Y)My memory of Reagan's Washington administration doesn't include abortion rhetoric to legislate an overturn of Roe v. Wade. If Reagan were truly against abortion, he'd not have secured Sandra Day O'Connor into the Supreme Court. As things were, socon talk was to manipulate his own political base support. GWBush did the same with his political capital lip service to Congress which didn't alter federal spending so rampantly into debt, or to secure the youth's alternative to Social Security, etc. Instead, TARP and the end of the world, or at least McCain's last gasp.
...Roe v. Wade, 1973, Nixon Administration
Majority Blackmun, joined by Burger, Douglas, Brennan, Stewart, Marshall, Powell
Concurrence Burger
Concurrence Douglas
Concurrence Stewart
Dissent White, joined by Rehnquist
Dissent Rehnquist


Posted by: panzernashorn at January 22, 2013 03:35 PM (MhA4j)

475 >>>I realize you're not going to bend on this, but you're nonetheless completely wrong.

right, they just happened to make oral statements which recapitulated their previously announced (previously written) positions, but we're supposed to ignore this.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:36 PM (LCRYB)

476 PETA likes to make the same argument wrt slaughterhouses and meat packing, and there are plenty of people who've worked those places and will cheerfully down a steak.
Posted by: Ian S. at January 22, 2013 03:23 PM (B/VB5)


-------------------------------------------------


Yup. Same for me. Used to help slaughter and process barter cows for my dad's store. Inch thick tenderloins are my favorite thing.

Posted by: Soona at January 22, 2013 03:36 PM (N2KVu)

477 How some outsiders can condone the pain and anguish these poor, elderly people need to go through just to satisfy the family guilt or profit motives is beyond me. Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 03:28 PM (ZDsRL)

Wow.

Just.

Wow.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:36 PM (sbV1u)

478 Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 22, 2013 03:27 PM (b+8h9)

How about googling images for first trimester fetus and tell me that they look like someone swallowed an olive.

Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 03:37 PM (m2CN7)

479 jones

cutting taxes can't win anymore either because we have people who don't stand for anything in the GOP

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 03:37 PM (GVxQo)

480 I guess it's just a coincidence that his announced, stated, repeated position was in fact no abortion, no exceptions.

That was the announced, stated, repeated interpretation of Mourdock's remarks by The View.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:38 PM (ZKzrr)

481
Well, I'm convinced. jwest knows better than any patient or family who should be allowed to live and who should be forced to die.


Who better to decide who lives and who dies than me?

Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 03:38 PM (ZDsRL)

482 Holy God complex, Batman.Well, I'm convinced. jwest knows better than any patient or family who should be allowed to live and who should be forced to die.
Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:34 PM (ZKzrr)


------------------------------------------------


He's just advertizing his bono-fides for that plum Ocare admin job.

Posted by: Soona at January 22, 2013 03:38 PM (N2KVu)

483 Shorter jwest: It's not really murder if it saves a buck.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at January 22, 2013 03:39 PM (ZKzrr)

484 Who better to decide who lives and who dies than me Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 03:38 PM (ZDsRL)

For your life? You.

For everyone else's? Not you.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:39 PM (sbV1u)

485 poly

you are wasting your time with that one

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 03:39 PM (GVxQo)

486 He's just advertizing his bono-fides for that plum Ocare admin job.

When I grow up, I want to be a kapo.

Posted by: jwest's fourth grade essay at January 22, 2013 03:40 PM (ZKzrr)

487 I've wondered a lot lately about how the GOP should handle this issue moving forward. My wife is solidly pro-choice and talking to her has been somewhat illuminating (though often head bangingly frustrating).

Here's what I think the GOP ought to do:
Acknowledge that Roe v. Wade is the status quo and that it is not likely to be changed anytime soon. Even though it is the status quo, we the GOP find it abhorrent and will work to change and the hearts and minds of the public.

The above being said and though abortion shall remain legal we are going to push for the following policies:

1) removal of planned parent funding for abortions- Given our current budet deficit, it makes no sense to continue to fund something so divisive. Private citizens are still able to donate to the organization and if they feel it should be a priorty, they will.

2) all Abortion clinics will see an increase in regulation so that they adhere to the following principles:

Posted by: taylork at January 22, 2013 03:40 PM (ppNDn)

488 I was more upset about the Moe V Wade SCOTUS ruling. A three stooger suing Virgina Wade cause he thought "She looked like a man baby"

Posted by: YaHump at January 22, 2013 03:40 PM (cenWS)

489 Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2013 03:30 PM (5H6zj)

Fair point on my wording there. I said "sit this one out." what I should have said was "does not agree with that particular course of action." I had the idea right in my head, I expressed it wrong in the typing.

You caught me there. I retract and clarify that point. As for my hunch that they happen in Catholic ERs, that's more based upon the reason the church doesn't allow for it with regards to intention, moral certainty, and a whole host of other things. Of course it's surprisingly un-absolute. Double effect could come in an intervene allowing them in certain cases (specifically the case is if there's reasonable certainty that there's no implanted egg, and the intent is other than to induce an abortion, for example to protect against transmission of disease.) I'm not saying this is right, or that it happens often, I'm merely saying, I can see it happening (and still being in compliance with the ERDs. But it's a side point, I should have merely left it out.)

As for the birth control or morning after pill. You're conflating a host of things.
The church's opposition to birth control stems from the uniative and procreative nature of sex. In rape there is no uniative, and thus no obligation to maintain the procreative aspect of it (provided life hasn't been created yet, which introduces another variable.)

So yes, so RC priest would advise a observant RC woman to use the pill for consensual sex. This isn't consensual sex. I specifically limited my claims to cases of rape.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 22, 2013 03:40 PM (YrTJq)

490 >>>That was the announced, stated, repeated interpretation of Mourdock's remarks by The View.

Please link me one of the times Mourdoch said "That's not my position, in fact I favor exceptions for rape."

Oh wait he didn't.

Now you guys are in the position of claiming they have these positions, apparently, but not by any deliberate choice; they just have them, and we're not supposed to ask about them. It's rude to ask them about the positions they proclaim when they're in front of friendlier (more conservative) audiences.



Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:40 PM (LCRYB)

491 >cutting taxes can't win anymore either because we have people who don't stand for anything in the GOP

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training


and we have a sizable chunk of the electorate who believe anything they hear in a Democrat attack ad

tax cuts for the rich!

take away your reproductive rights!

Posted by: Jones in CO at January 22, 2013 03:41 PM (8sCoq)

492 480 HeatherRadish

Your point being that ace gets his quotes from The View?

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 22, 2013 03:41 PM (MhA4j)

493 I am beginning to doubt my own existence

Posted by: The Hill To Die On at January 22, 2013 03:41 PM (EZl54)

494 cont from 487:

a)ensure informed consent based upon current AMA guidelines and standards, as well as any applicable state laws. b) regulate the safety and cleanliness of the hospital on a regular basis.

Posted by: taylork at January 22, 2013 03:42 PM (ppNDn)

495 Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 03:37 PM (m2CN7)

-------

Dude. I have four kids; I've seen a few of them in the olive pit stage. Yes, olive pit is hyperbole, but it's true that they don't seem---to people who aren't already pro-life or attached to the pregnancy---particularly human. This is how doctors and nurses who are nice, normal people in the rest of their lives are able to go on doing this.

Now of course a person at the olive pit stage is still human and it's absolutely wretched to kill him or her. But I think flippantly saying that people who are okay with abortion simply haven't seen one done is not helpful.

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 22, 2013 03:42 PM (b+8h9)

496 oh boy

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 03:43 PM (GVxQo)

497 The fuck ???? I see how it is. Well every last one of you can pucker up and kiss my lilly white, freckled ginger ass.
Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 03:29 PM (da5Wo)



Well, you shouldn't have done whatever it is that you did, now should you?

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 03:43 PM (VtjlW)

498 "Red herring" is just your code for "I dont' want to talk about a particular issue that hurts my position."
----

I'm happy to talk about it.It needs to be talked about.But actually I think the people who don't want to talk about it are the people who claim they are pro-life but would allow it for rape/incest.They want to take the easy way out and bring everything down to rape/incest. I think itjust gives them a convenient excuse to try to stand on some moral high ground but then hide behind an exception that is rare (very rare).

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 03:44 PM (gmeXX)

499 @Y-not

Looking back over that post, I think I meant to say "are not in that camp." which would have made a lot more sense anyway. I have no idea why it came out "sit this one out." People are talking behind me.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 22, 2013 03:45 PM (YrTJq)

500 Well, you shouldn't have done whatever it is that you did, now should you?

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 22, 2013 03:43 PM (VtjlW)


I make one short joke and I'm running for my life and my balls. Bannion's got his head halfway up your skirt and he's in the clear. Shit just ain't right.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 03:45 PM (da5Wo)

501 removal of planned parent funding for abortions- Given our current budet deficit, it makes no sense to continue to fund something so divisive

This is the thing libertarians never understand about being "socially liberal": lefties never just stop at making something legal, they always want it to be government subsidized too.

I predict once gay marriage is passed everywhere there will be agitating for government grants to poor gays who can't afford a sufficiently fabulous wedding.

Posted by: Ian S. at January 22, 2013 03:46 PM (B/VB5)

502 Abortion just isn't the hill I'm choosing for Radar's Last Stand. Sorry, but when the country is hurtling towards fiscal armageddon abortion just isn't that pressing.

Posted by: radar at January 22, 2013 03:47 PM (zmlwq)

503
Heather,

Really...

If there is an 82 year old alcoholic welfare receipient who desperately needs a liver transplant now, even though there are a dozen other medical issues the patient is dealing with, are you ready to be taxed more to pay for it?

Should we fly in the Austrian physician who is the expert on this type of surgery to give him a better chance? What the hell, it's only money and this is a human life we're talking about.

If this guy has a secret stash of gold coins and he wants to spend it on extending his life a few months, he's welcome to do it. However, if we take the position that "society" will eat the cost no matter what, there won't be any money for anything else.

Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 03:47 PM (ZDsRL)

504 ace is right, I guess. There is the problem that everyone is post-morteming 2012 through different perspectives. We don't know why romney actually lost.

Maybe it was akin and mordouck alone who did it. We got our asses kicked in senate races (which were in no way affected by blue district ballot stuffing). That is, we lost red state senate seats which may be cause or effect of rape bortion.

Second, Romney had some momentum going into election with pickups of what 40? new newspaper endorsements along with other new, across the aisle disgust with Great Depression 2.bama

Third, polls were so overwhelming for romney in redish swing states that they stopped polling them.

we were all wrong? or what?

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:47 PM (QxSug)

505 I make one short joke and I'm running for my
life and my balls. Bannion's got his head halfway up your skirt and he's
in the clear. Shit just ain't right Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 03:45 PM (da5Wo)


But I make tea and re-load the flamethrowers. I'm also Chief of the Contracts Division and the Logistics Division.

You are a junior Court Jester at best.

And I did acknowledge the majesty of the royal jewels.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:47 PM (sbV1u)

506 Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 22, 2013 03:42 PM (b+8h9)

I don't care if you're octomom. A ten week old fetus looks human. You don't think so . I do. I also think women who get an abortion can only do so because of as I said previously , out of sight , out of mind.

Posted by: polynikes at January 22, 2013 03:48 PM (m2CN7)

507 You are a junior Court Jester at best.



Posted by: Sean Bannion at January 22, 2013 03:47 PM (sbV1u)


A junior......???

Motherfucker

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 22, 2013 03:49 PM (da5Wo)

508
471

Maybe, but I don't think Repubs can win without pro lifers either, so put that in your pipe and smoke it Jones.
What amazes me is that we are at a point in the United States of frigging America where a person who does not believe in killing unborn babies is MORE exreme than someone who votes to let a baby die that manages to survive an abortion.
THAT is fucked up

Posted by: FITP at January 22, 2013 03:49 PM (i22hv)

509 yeah, meanwhile obama got to spend gov. $$ on abortions and force the church to pay for it too, while having a history of post-birth abortion support.

but we could never ever make such a counter argument.

because we're scared.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:49 PM (QxSug)

510 How do y'all think the rape stuff would have even come up except in the context of abortion? There's no rape tax that I'm aware of, or rape entitlement that's unbalancing the budget. If Mourdock and Akin are talking about rape its either because they are the worst politicians in the history of the world OR they were talking about abortion and trying to justify or at least give a shout-out to the no-rape position.
Stuff isn't rocket science.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at January 22, 2013 03:50 PM (ZMzpb)

511 so, maybe it's like this. If there's a position out there that the GOP is too scared to defend, drop it as a position.

This includes banning tampons and, well, every other position we hold.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:50 PM (QxSug)

512 "Red herring" is just your code for "I dont' want to talk about a particular issue that hurts my position."

*******************

No, not really. The thing is that even though abortions from rape occur at minute numbers, whenever the subject of putting reasonable restrictions on it that most for agree upon- you know, like stopping the abomination that is partial birth abortion- the rape canard is trotted out to bludgeon us with. And you don't even have to be against abortion in cases of rape. Romney was beaten over the head with rape cases even though he could not have been clearer that he supported an exception for rape and incest and did everything he could to distance himself from those that wanted no exceptions for rape and incest.

So, yes, it is helpful to point out that this is trotted out by the left as a means to distract us from doing anything about the stuff most folks with the exception of the NARAL types agree upon.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at January 22, 2013 03:50 PM (qFpRI)

513
"We don't know why romney actually lost."

At least in Michigan we know why he lost. He didn't even fucking try.


Posted by: jwest at January 22, 2013 03:52 PM (ZDsRL)

514 meanwhile, if you remember the debates, obama ran on 100K new teachers and finally making the rich pay some taxes, so it's a level playing field.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:52 PM (QxSug)

515 Maybe it was akin and mordouck alone who did it. We got our asses kicked in senate races (which were in no way affected by blue district ballot stuffing). That is, we lost red state senate seats which may be cause or effect of rape bortion.
I don't think Ace or anyone else is arguing that Akin and Mourdock were responsible for losing the election for us. Squish moderates lost easily winnable races in 2012 too.

What they were responsible for was losing the Senate races in Missouri and Indiana, and in both cases the loss was them talking wildly about rape in order to justify a position on abortion that the American public isn't having.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at January 22, 2013 03:52 PM (ZMzpb)

516 Sigh. Is it wrong to kind of sort of wish just a teeny weeny bit that some plot of members of the Religion of Peace have a dozen or so suitcase nukes and pick 12 big cities in red states? Probably so, but man, it feels so good.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at January 22, 2013 03:53 PM (ZWvOb)

517 >>>>>yeah, meanwhile obama got to spend gov. $$ on abortions and force the church to pay for it too, while having a history of post-birth abortion support.

I like the legal but not subsidized attack as the first approach. Followed by increase regulations on abortion clinics and severe penalties for those who are non-compliant. The liberals have gotten very good at destroying an industry and I think we should follow their example on this.

Posted by: taylork at January 22, 2013 03:53 PM (ppNDn)

518 508 FITP,


fucked up enough I pray God teaches a lesson, and he almost always does.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:54 PM (LRFds)

519 "Women's health my ass."

All true. But most of the pro-choice women I've spoken to don't even put abortion in terms of health anymore. Frankly, they say, a poor woman without access to abortion is just a factory for more welfare babies. An abortion that causes future infertility or miscarriages among their clients is not necessarily a bug.

The outright eugenicists leading the pro-choice side had the foresight to go beyond pro-lifer's easily deflected moral arguments, and make it all about money. They've rolled-back or blocked every possibility of reforming the welfare system while at the same time marketing abortion as the affordable, safe, and healthy choice. This two-pronged strategy successfully turned babies -- especially poor black babies -- into a liability for society at large. And everyone agrees what happens to liabilities, right?

What can pro-lifers do to counter this? I'm not sure. But it'll have to be undone the same way it was done, as set of interlocking, concrete policy initiatives. Get to work.

Posted by: GalosGann at January 22, 2013 03:55 PM (T3KlW)

520 513, ugh, fucking michingan and wisoconsin.

Those states were heartbreakers.

we thought we had maxed out wisconsin and won it with recalls and all that.

I thought was clever looking at michigan's 2010 win. in a state with 5 million reg voters, something like 1.9 million had voted gop in 2010, so all we had to do was keep that and maybe convince 600K voters, at most, to come to Romney. Nope, Obama suffered not one vote lost for anything he's done.

And of course, voter fraud is metaphysically impossible, so you're left with ... ?

Basically, the DNC was able to voter turnout EVERYONE for obama

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:55 PM (QxSug)

521 517 - That's good advice.

Posted by: GalosGann at January 22, 2013 03:56 PM (T3KlW)

522 >>>you know, like stopping the abomination that is partial birth abortion- the rape canard is trotted out to bludgeon us with.

I've always wondered what rape victim would wait that long to get an abortion. Seems like it would be a pretty straightforward decision to me. One that you would make shortly after being raped.

Posted by: taylork at January 22, 2013 03:56 PM (ppNDn)

523 Damn HIPPA ruined my dream of FOIA requests for all customers of Planned Parenthood's services, since they run off government money, and posting a nice interactive map.

It's for the children.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at January 22, 2013 03:56 PM (ZWvOb)

524 511 Joe in DC,

I dunno Joe I sorta like the idea of taxing the poor and just handing the money to the rich....

People the democrats got to the point they did blowing shit up and "taking campus facilities hostage" you do recall?

The public perception of our party has nothing to do with out party.

You want to start setting the balance right spit in Chuck Todd's face.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:57 PM (LRFds)

525 522 Taylork,

Yeah "logic" how does that work...I cannot imagine a raped woman carrying the "rape baby" for 8 months for shits and giggles and our side should mock the retarded dem who rebutts with that.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 03:58 PM (LRFds)

526 Mandy P - well said. You said it better than I could. That is exactly why it is a red herring.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 03:58 PM (gmeXX)

527 **What they were responsible for was losing the Senate races in Missouri and Indiana, and in both cases the loss was them talking wildly about rape in order to justify a position on abortion that the American public isn't havin**

I don't know.

On one hand, it's probably just the fruit of the donk's (really, every liberal western country's) plan on importing non-western values voters into America in such numbers (and under such a level of lib brain washing) and then bussing them to the polls such that there is no longer a predictable election. You may note that only useful idiot nations took up the Kennedy immigration plan.

On the other hand, maybe each red state senate seat loss is a local issue that people love democrats and obama. who knows?

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 03:58 PM (QxSug)

528 >>>The thing is that even though abortions from rape occur at minute numbers, whenever the subject of putting reasonable restrictions on it that most for agree upon- you know, like stopping the abomination that is partial birth abortion- the rape canard is trotted out to bludgeon us with.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. You seem to be arguing for the right to hold a position but not be held to it, as it may suit you.

You cannot be bludgeoned effectively with a position you don't hold.

You both want politicians to hold this position and speak it in quiet, friendly quarters, but will call it unfair if they're asked about it front of general audiences.

I say: If the position is that unpopular (and it is), then DROP IT AS A POSITION. Then it's not a problem.

But if you want to hold it, and politicians want to hold it, then yes, they will be "bludgeoned" with it, as it should be.

Politicians don't get to support unpopular positions that people don't want without any consequences flowing from that.

If a politician thinks conscience compels him to say that's what HE PERSONALLY supports, but he would not support it as policy, as the country isn't ready for it, then he can say THAT, too.

But if you're going to come out with a very unpopular position, and you're determined to keep it, then yes, expect some problems.

And no, that's not unfair. That's life. That's normal. That's to be expected.

Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 04:00 PM (LCRYB)

529 You folks do not get it. You do not oppose abortion out of polling numbers. You do it because it is the only correct position.

The left never does this to themselves. They never said "we need to drop passing the healthcare bill because a clear majority oppose it. Even though they were wrong, they have balls.

They stick to their guns. Period. And they do not care what people think now, because they figure in years, Repub pols and even citizenry will defend universal care when it it's threatened, much the same way they do over social security and other insidious gov programs.

They are in it for the long haul.

These pols reflect the debable of Akin, and of the left's control over the media framing of these issues, particularly in pop culture where on TV women are portrayed as having abortion as a right, with liberal moral lessons on shows dating back to the Waltons.

Our side is not called the stupid party for nothing...

Posted by: okdoke at January 22, 2013 04:00 PM (tvxL7)

530 fire away...
Posted by: Jones in CO at January 22, 2013 03:34 PM (8sCoq)

Okay. I'd rather make an alliance with snake than a pro-choicer. They are more trustworthy. A snake wouldn't kill its own for an electoral win. No nation that does that is even worth fighting for.

Posted by: Invictus at January 22, 2013 04:00 PM (OQpzc)

531 yeah, so I think ace is on to something here. rape-bortions are rare-rare. so why die on that hill. no, seriously.

the argument cuts the other way, why lose red state senate seats over it? Fine, have an abortion, just file a police report.

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 04:01 PM (QxSug)

532 I think we should use a whittling approach rather than a grand bargain. I think some Dems will agree. Whittle away at the entitlements in wafer thin slices.

That way no one notices what's going one.

A debt ceiling discussion every 3 months is the way to go, along with other artificial deadlines.

Making the Senate pass a budget is another way to whittle. Sure, its not a huge deal, but it makes them have to think about spending cuts. (Or taxes.)

And the GOP should have their list of tax increases ready:

1) Hollywood
2) Trial Lawyer takings
3) Carried interest - show we are not the banker's buddies.
4) Corporate welfare - lower the taxes as you close loopholes.
5) I would agree with a special tax on all incomes for banks that are under Dodd Frank too big to fail. Those funds would go to a bank stabilization fund. Sure, the banks can raise prices, but then that helps small banks.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:02 PM (dZQh7)

533 In other words, if you can make peace with baby killing there is no way to trust you would stand in the line for any single thing.

Posted by: Invictus at January 22, 2013 04:02 PM (OQpzc)

534 The dumb shit politicians on the GOP side need to flip the rape question every time some media hack decides to ambush them with it, eg:

- Rape? The real rape issue that needs to be discussed is why we are allowing Planned Parenthood to continue ignoring statutory rape reporting laws ....

- Rape? The real rape issue is why our urban police departments have such horrible policy and procedures resulting is enormous under reporting, did you see the Human Rights Watch ....

- Rape, I fully support extending the death penalty to violent rapists and people with too many bumperstickers.

Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 04:02 PM (VRCBg)

535 When you take the bold principled stand to its ultimate conclusion you end up as...a Ron Paul supporter. Those guys oppose pragmatism like no one else. And I even agree with roughly 95% of their philosophy. But if you mention political tactics or PR or anything else that doesn't involve them patting themselves on the back nonstop for their philosophical consistency, they fly into a spittle flecked rage that you'll never forget.

I think many of them are just socially inept and never figured out basic human interaction. And I say that as someone with fairly limited social skills myself.

Posted by: rfichoke at January 22, 2013 04:02 PM (fsqrU)

536 BTW, those taxes are in some ways for negotiations only - "see, we are fine with raising taxes." though 1, 2, and 3 really are not bad ideas at all.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:04 PM (dZQh7)

537 and remember, only donk social values are ones that are valuable enough to throw away a vote and keep Great Depression 2 point Bama in office.

Maybe the left just doesn't care.

Or maybe, as I bitched about a month ago, we need to use wedge issues effectively instead of being too scared of our own shadow to argue for our own beliefs (and I concur with ace that akin and Mordouck's positions were not within that realm(let's win the larger battle first before we start closing off every loop hole)).

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 22, 2013 04:04 PM (QxSug)

538 Ace,

That's not what I'm saying at all and I don't know how you've extrapolated that from what I've said. I'm just trying to point out the the rape exception canard is used to beat down even those who are *supportive* of a rape exception but pro-life otherwise. Romney being the most recent example.


The comment you quoted was the first I've made in this thread about the rape exception so maybe you've got what I said cross-wired with something someone else said.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at January 22, 2013 04:06 PM (qFpRI)

539 Additionally, all this talk of "being realistic" and publicly having the GOP admit abortion is "law" or status quo, etc. is defeatist idiocy.

Once again, you do not surrender or backtrack your views like that, if you think we are losing now, the polls will be 85% pro-choice in a few years with that approach.

The left is going, as usual, for the kill. This poll is intended for psy-ops, and it's working on the stupid party and its members already...

Posted by: okdoke at January 22, 2013 04:07 PM (tvxL7)

540 What about when there is brain activity, my American friends, what about when there is brain activity...

Posted by: C. at January 22, 2013 04:09 PM (SRDTU)

541 I think the personhood amendments/ laws at the State level are the way to go. Define a person, beginning and end, prosecute any doctor, nurse, abortion mill technician who violates that line under existing murder, manslaughter laws in State court. Defy the Feds by refusing a Federal writ over jurisdiction ....

I would also push back on the Feds limit on the death penalty, make libs defend the right of some violent rapist in the same context as these arguments. If they can make us wring our hands over killing a baby, we should at least make them tut-tut over killing the rapist.

Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 04:09 PM (VHfsw)

542 Most Americans are ignorant over abortion and the Roe decision. Our job is educate. Most agree in polling for years that it should be a state matter. Then they back Roe, not realizing they are arguing against their OWN views.

Pointing this out, in organized teams on blogs and on talk shows, is one answer.

Also, agreeing with the remedy in Roe, does not mean Americans should not understand the folly of rejecting faulty JUDICIAL REASONING AND LOGIC AND phony penumbras that Roe hath wrought.

Kapish?

Posted by: okdoke at January 22, 2013 04:09 PM (tvxL7)

543 I bought the poll malarkey at the end of the campaign...who doesn't want their team to pull of a miraculous win, 2 scores down with 30 seconds left.

So respect polls a little more, but even then, some polls are garbage and biased, and wording matters.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:11 PM (dZQh7)

544 I say: If the position is that unpopular (and it is), then DROP IT AS A POSITION. Then it's not a problem.
---

Ace calm down. We are willing to talk about rape. I wish you would have responded to the rest of my post instead of simply focusing on my word's red herring. But the other poster is correct. Rape is tossed around so we can't talk about abortion at all. Does abortion have to come down to the rape question and nothing more?

I'm willing to talk about it. And I'm willing to entertain the option of dropping it from a GOP platform. But I do so, not because I don't believe that the exception shouldn't exist, but because I may believe that if we remove the focus from rape we may be able to have rational discussion on the issue. And it may allow public opinion to shift to the pro-life side. Once you do that then public opinion may shift on the rape question. Not definite, but maybe, maybe a snow-balling effect.

But I could also see it having no effect, because then the left and those who claim to be pro-life other than for rape, will focus on some new exception. And, in the process they will have gotten the pro-lifes to concede they only care about certain lives, not lives from abortion. So what's the moral difference with not carrying about unwanted lives.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 04:11 PM (gmeXX)

545 Actually, I am pro-choice but sympathetic to pro-life position, if that makes any sense.

Are there any pro-life groups that do birth control education outreach?

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:13 PM (dZQh7)

546 "Rape is tossed around so we can't talk about abortion at all. Does abortion have to come down to the rape question and nothing more? "

Thank you SH. That's all I was trying to say.

Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at January 22, 2013 04:14 PM (qFpRI)

547 One of the big issues I think is that it seems like the GOP has tried the same tactic for the last 40 years and its failed. In fact, despite practice at messaging, we've managed to get worse (see, Akin et al).

It's insane to think that we can do the same things over and over and expect things to change.

Start small, try advocating that any abortion funding (planned parenthood, mexico city policy, etc) go to funding for foster care and adoptive services. Let gays couples adopt.

We need to change the public attitude that abortion is the way to go instead of adoption.

as ace said, don't go for the clitoris immediately.

Posted by: taylork at January 22, 2013 04:14 PM (ppNDn)

548 The other factor, pointed out by another poster, is the lack of offense our side seems to generate.

Instead of defending, attack. When asked over rape and abortion, respond over PP's de facto defense of statutory rapes as seen in sting vids.

Ask a question on if we cannot execute the rapist for his crime, why can we do so with the preborn?

If a woman fails to abort, why can't she, minutes after delivering a rapist's child, have them killed then and there?

The issue revolves around the humanity or lack thereof of the aborted.

The left wins because the right never fights correctly and turns the tables.

Posted by: okdoke at January 22, 2013 04:15 PM (tvxL7)

549 "hen the left and those who claim to be pro-life other than for rape, will focus on some new exception"

No. There is not much of a slippery slope here. Everything past health issues or rape become inconvenience or "punished with a baby" which goes back to support the pro-life side.

Or is that because I grew up poor and don't think growing up poor is some kind of death sentence that libs think it is?

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:15 PM (dZQh7)

550 Again, this is all because Roe prevented a political solution from the get go. Each state may have its own laws, but they would be supported by the majority of their electorate. What we have now is a deeply divided country, that will only become more divided.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 04:16 PM (gmeXX)

551 >>>You folks do not get it. You do not oppose abortion out of polling numbers. You do it because it is the only correct position.

But what if it's the wrong position? A 100% no-exceptions opposition to abortion strikes me (to say nothing of a super-majority of the country) as being, a violently, viciously, almost aggressively cruel, mindlessly dogmatic position.

The fact that you may feel equally as strong in the opposite direction does not by definition make your position correct and mine/theirs wrong.

Posted by: Jeff B. at January 22, 2013 04:17 PM (h9J9H)

552 "hen the left and those who claim to be pro-life other than for rape, will focus on some new exception" No. There is not much of a slippery slope here. Everything past health issues or rape become inconvenience or "punished with a baby" which goes back to support the pro-life side. Or is that because I grew up poor and don't think growing up poor is some kind of death sentence that libs think it is?

----

I don't believe this.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 04:17 PM (gmeXX)

553 >>>Additionally, all this talk of "being realistic" and publicly having the GOP admit abortion is "law" or status quo, etc. is defeatist idiocy.


I don't think so. Charging head long into a battle you keep losing, and losing worse each time is defeatist.

Posted by: taylork at January 22, 2013 04:18 PM (ppNDn)

554 Bah. What this means is that we've turned the corner and become beasts. And I do not care what happens to mere beasts. Let it all f'n burn.

Posted by: Klawnet at January 22, 2013 04:18 PM (ePxxX)

555 "Does abortion have to come down to the rape question and nothing more? "

Yes, because the Christian right insists on running candidates who do not know how to articulate an answer to the rape question which every media outlet will ask them.

Maybe after church one day, you could craft a simple but effective answer to this question and have all the Christian candidates memorize it and practice saying it.

Or better yet, set up a web page, and the candidates can just tell the reporter to google it.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:18 PM (dZQh7)

556 You DO die on that hill, because although rare, you are saying the worth of the child is determined NOT by it's humanity, but by the variable, even transitory view of his or her mother.

A child conceived in rape is no less or more human than one conceived in a consenting manner. They die in abortion either way.

What the left does is demagog and use emotion effectively.

We have to find counters that do NOT compromise values. Once you do that, the game is over before it's played. And the defeatism on these blogs is telling...

Posted by: okdoke at January 22, 2013 04:18 PM (tvxL7)

557 553 Taylork,

so is staying in a Repuiblic that wants to keep you from using your natural resources for gain and demands the frugal amongst their member support the most profilgate.

FUCK CALIFORNIA

Posted by: sven10077 at January 22, 2013 04:19 PM (LRFds)

558 #545 Yes, there are organizations that go into schools with information about birth control and about alternatives to abortion. One of them is Birthright International. http://www.birthright.org/
My mother volunteered for them for many years. They are very active in supporting women with untimely pregnancies. They offer counseling, clothing for the pregnant woman, layettes for the baby, etc. They work with churches in their local area to raise funds to maintain their work. One year they gave out brown grocery bags with a "wish list" stapled on it with baby items -- diapers, onsies, bottles, etc. -- and invited church goers to bring the bag back filled. Another church had a "baby shower" where people brought necessary items and piled them all in a playpen.

Posted by: aj4coco at January 22, 2013 04:19 PM (EvT57)

559 Let me see if I can set up an analogy...the MSM and the dems school us on the rape question like we used to school the Dems on crime.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:20 PM (dZQh7)

560 Ok dole, yes.

The 'pubs let the press get away with the ridiculous lie that Planned Parenthood was providing cancer screenings, without a single mammography machine or PAP smear to back it up. The baseline behind that lie is that Planned Parenthood can't do those things, as they would force them into compliance with healthcare regulations - that would cost them money.

Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 04:22 PM (VRCBg)

561 ace, 447.
just talking about the sanctity of life in an abstract, philosophical, makes-no-matter way?
Please.



Posted by: ace at January 22, 2013 03:28 PM


why not simply remain aloof on the abortion issue rather than brow beat rape victims into demanding an abortion because they DESERVE an abortion? two wrongs for a right, at least double negative's a positive...

Carrying a baby to full term is not the end of the world. As I mentioned above, homes for unwed runaway expectant mothers are an important social contribution of private organizations. And privately funded abortion clinics keep pace without any tax subsidies.

No reason for me to sponsor abortions for anyone. No one should force sex; and no one should force abortion or termination of life, or parenthood. Authoritarianism is not right, so I wouldn't make abortion illegal. I would not condone abortion, nor would I have one, nor would I pay for anyone else to have one. I am not personally willing to be responsible for anyone outside of my family. Would that every parent behaved responsibly and taught their children personal responsibility and that everyone cultivated integrity. What was made legal has "progressed" into being an entitlement, something that the world owes the individual, regardless of personal responsibility.

Raising a child is a life long full time calling as your mom might verify. But until you marry and have your own children or raise a family of your own adopted children, don't preach to any choir about good/bad parenting or about aborting "rights". Your overcompensation in these long drawn out politically correct bleeding heart metromale posts are as tiresome as Akin's mannerisms. What? Rape happens so women "deserve" abortions. Hell, rape victims aren't even uniformly acknowledged yet, some still being prosecuted illegitimately by asshole detectives for crying wolf, despite DNA physical evidence (rapist's fingernail).

Deserve's got nothing to do with it. Neither has rape if the female senses more to the sanctity of life than "an abstract, philosophical, makes-no-matter way" of existing.

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 22, 2013 04:22 PM (MhA4j)

562 @558, thanks. Maybe pro-life people should get more of that out there. (I'm sure they try.)
Do they really do birth control education though? From your list it sounds like after the fact - which is needed too, maybe even more than the birth control education. I'd just like to be able to tell a strident lib about a group that did both things. It would be a great contract to PP.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:23 PM (dZQh7)

563 The left also sets traps on how old the Earth is, and other tactics.

Sooner or later the right needs to wake up and go on offense and not allow them to simply control the terms and emotions.

The left routinely takes unpopular stances and eventually turns the tide. Our side constantly worries how "extreme" we look lest we be another Akin.

We will never win with a retreating from values, looking like moral hypocrite mindset that seems to permeate our blogs, while Kos never suffers from such problems. Try supporting your values consistently, to build a brand. It works. You have to be willing to lose short term to win in the long term...

Posted by: okdoke at January 22, 2013 04:23 PM (tvxL7)

564 i don't want to pay for any abortion period and why should i have too?

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 04:23 PM (GVxQo)

565 if you want or need an abortion....do it on your own dime....why must you drag me into it?

Posted by: phoenixgirl waiting for spring training at January 22, 2013 04:24 PM (GVxQo)

566 PP cancer screening story:

"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."

paraphrased now as "A liar can elected twice before the electorate discovers the truth."

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:26 PM (dZQh7)

567 >>>>We will never win with a retreating from values, looking like moral hypocrite mindset that seems to permeate our blogs, while Kos never suffers from such problems.

I'm not sure teh Kos kids are capable of such self inspection to realize they can be hypocrites.

Posted by: taylork at January 22, 2013 04:28 PM (ppNDn)

568
sexypig

Well, all I can say is screw you too. Nothing worse than a sanctimonious ass that thinks he has the right to tell me who the hell I am supposed to vote for.
Your attitude (as exemplified by many in the "establishment") is EXACTLY why turnout was down and Obama got reelected.
Also, I'm pretty sure that the religeous right didn't have a damn thing to do with Romney getting the nomination.....how do you manage to twist things to blame that cluster fuck on the icky bible bangers?

Posted by: FITP at January 22, 2013 04:28 PM (i22hv)

569 There is an assumption here that everyone in the GOP is pro-life, and thus "we" should hold our ground. No.

If you are a pro-life Republican, you can hold your ground, but you'd better do it in a responsible way. Police your Akins and Mourdochs. Those guys go to church. You should have pastors calling those morons up and getting them to bow out of those races. Instead Huckabee supported hi.

Look, I am pro-legalization of marijuana and possibly other drugs, but if my candidate started answering questions about that by saying "You know, heroin addicts can be completely functional in society and may not need any rehabilitation" then I would say DUMP HIM. I would not say "Its God's Will."

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:30 PM (dZQh7)

570 There are social conservatives who are pro-life not because we are "Christian Conservatives" as if that is somehow a pejorative label, but because we believe that all lives are worthy dignity andprotection (should I say all innocent life - well I hope you understand what I mean).

I don't like the Akin's of the world, because they set back the pro-life cause, but I would hardly call the cause a failure.

Now I believe the fiscal issues are just as important as the social issues, and I believe the social issues are better left to the states. But the Court has made them federal issues. They are intertwined. And for all the Akin's, there are the blue dog dems who were the social liberal fiscal conservatives who all voted for Obamacare and the Stimulus. Meanwhile the Ryans aand Paul's vote for smaller government while simultaneously being strong pro-lifers.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 04:31 PM (gmeXX)

571 "I don't think so. Charging head long into a battle you keep losing, and losing worse each time is defeatist."

Because you view this too simplistically and only about the next ELECTION.

To win, you have to long term plan.

You cannot win by SELF EXPOSED hypocrisy via supporting rape exceptions when even the OTHER SIDE will respond arguing that you never believed it was human, or to be consistent you'd oppose it in the case of rape, and they'd be RIGHT.

This is long term war, not the latest election.

You lose moral authority when you defend and retreat and make statements in view polls like Pew. You are the bitch of the left, and helping them destroy your supporters from WITHIN.

The left wins because they, unlike us, do not a rats ass about what others, and voters think of them. See the HC bill they got their own House members to risk their elections to certain defeat short term, and they got them to walk the plank.

Not an accident. Sure wish our side had cajones like that. But no, our side will not risk the house on the debt ceiling, because of fear.

To the moderates in this party, no time like the present to surrender on any given issue, while the left continues to take ground we freely surrender.

Posted by: okdoke at January 22, 2013 04:31 PM (tvxL7)

572 @talyork, Akin drove turnout up among lackluster Dem voters. I hate to tell you this, but most of them were not buying the war on women stuff until Akin.

Then suddenly my FB pages were full of rape baby stuff.

We need to admit that was a major error.

Now, you are correct there were other errors, like the 47% comment, but we are talking abortion here and not those.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:32 PM (dZQh7)

573
So, jackass, you think that ALL pro life people go to church?
What an idiot....I will waste noe more time on you.

Posted by: FITP at January 22, 2013 04:32 PM (i22hv)

574 A 100% no-exceptions opposition to abortion strikes me (to say nothing of a super-majority of the country) as being, a violently, viciously, almost aggressively cruel, mindlessly dogmatic position

There were plenty of northern Democrats making the same arguments in the 1860s with regards to slavery, and German-American Bund campaigned on the same basis for years. All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

We need a good web ad of rape victims children, asking Why would you kill me ...

Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 04:34 PM (Io7hX)

575 The only religion left that is really anti abortion is Islam. The Catholics do it all the time. And the jews say that the fetus is definitely NOT a human being.

Posted by: occam at January 22, 2013 04:35 PM (cWOlF)

576 I'm sure the point is the left is more ideologically pure and unanimous that the right is, and that's precisely the point.

For 40+ years they control the media, schools, and entertainment/hollywood.

Tonight, on an MTV "man" show they will push homosexuality to normalize it, as it has been for years now on show and movie after show and movie.

No wonder we are losing.

The left keeps controlling the pop culture messaging and HBO, so they win every social issue from abortion, gay "marriage" on down, and this translates into votes at the END of the chain.

Unless we get into the game, and fast, we will lose all elections and trying to look moderate on abortion or any other issue will not help us stem that...

Posted by: okdoke at January 22, 2013 04:35 PM (tvxL7)

577 Sexypig - just about every conservative voice dumped on Akin. Sometimes dumb candidates get through. You can't expect to nominate articulatevoices like Ted Cruz everytime. And he will probably say something dumb too sometime. Don't blame Akin on supporters of pro-life. I'm not a Huckabee supporter.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 04:36 PM (gmeXX)

578 "You lose moral authority when you defend and retreat "

OK, this is your theory. Use it to explain the Democrats retreat on gun control in the 90's and its full resurgence now.

Have they lost any moral authority? No.

Also, I'm sorry, but many of the voters we need to attract are not "moral" people in the Christian sense. Our party needs to be "pro-life/pro-life curious" rather than dogmatic.

There is also a libertarian way to be pro-life which is to ignore the "must make it illegal" route and instead use persuasion and resources in the private area. I suspect this would be looked on most favorably by many voters.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:36 PM (dZQh7)

579 Then suddenly my FB pages were full of rape baby stuff. ----

I suggest you get better friends.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 04:37 PM (gmeXX)

580 Sexy pig, you realize that pastors don't have that kinda of power anymore? Else some Catholic bishop in a red robe would have tied several prominent Dims to a smoking pole at this point.

Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 04:38 PM (k8qQE)

581
Ah, so what you are really saying SexyPig is that you are Libertarian, not conservative.
Still a jackass, though.

Posted by: FITP at January 22, 2013 04:40 PM (i22hv)

582 There is also a libertarian way to be pro-life which is to ignore the "must make it illegal" route and instead use persuasion and resources in the private area. I suspect this would be looked on most favorably by many voters.

---

I can support this, but I suspect you would get the same push back from the left on this as the social conservatives get. I'm open to any tactic that advances the pro-life cause, including dropping the no exception for rape/incest. But I recognize that there is some danger in doing it. I am certainly open to libertarian routes of persuasion.

But I will agree with you, that this country will not become pro-life by outlawing abortions. This country needs to become pro-life and then outlaw abortions. Change the minds and the law will follow.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 04:41 PM (gmeXX)

583 Akin should have been kicked to the curb by the party when we found out the Dims were financing him, we should name the next class of torpedo boats after him.

Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 04:41 PM (Is+Nb)

584 "I'm willing to talk about it [abortion]. And I'm willing to entertain the option of dropping it from a GOP platform."

The prohibition of public funding for abortion should absolutely be a plank in the GOP platform.

Whether abortion is legal or not, is beside the point so long as it is currently legal. Whether abortion is performed or not is a private matter, and to be funded privately, never with any tax funds.

Given ObamaCare, conflict remains acute.

But then, Congress refuses to even debate a budget, let alone pass one.

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 22, 2013 04:42 PM (MhA4j)

585 SH, so the Facebook pages of sonograms and brainwaves aren't enough?

Posted by: Jean at January 22, 2013 04:44 PM (Is+Nb)

586 @577, enough people supported Akin. I want to know how many pastors emailed him or called him to get out of the race. I bet ZERO did.

And how did he win the primary?

And, sorry, but he's a Christian and pro-lifer. You have to take some responsibility. Your side is pushing the single issue line, and demanding the plank. And saying don't back down and moral authority.

I am not pro-life, and when people here keep saying its vital, vital for our cause, I would like to see some better policing of said candidates by said supporters, because that affects what I want too.

If you guys said "Its okay to be pro-life but not in cases of rape, or its okay to be reluctantly pro-choice" then it would be different. You are asking for purity tests, which is fine. My backscratch request is a competency test.

And yeah, I'm being jerkish. For all I know it was the 47% comment that sunk Romney. Or Orca.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:44 PM (dZQh7)

587 "The prohibition of public funding for abortion should absolutely be a plank in the GOP platform."

THIS. I do not believe citizens should have to pay for something they believe is abhorrent.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:45 PM (dZQh7)

588 And, sorry, but he's a Christian and pro-lifer. You have to take some responsibility. Your side is pushing the single issue line, and demanding the plank. And saying don't back down and moral authority.
-----

I am Christian and pro-life. I am taking no responsibility for Akin. I am supportive of the plank, but open to its revision, even if I am not yet convinced it will be succesful.

----
THIS. I do not believe citizens should have to pay for something they believe is abhorrent.

----

I'm glad you believe that. How has that argument gone. Pro-choicers don't simply want to have the choice. They want it paid for.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 04:49 PM (gmeXX)

589 Okdoke,
I understand your position, but it seems like it hasn't worked. If the goal is to prevent abortions, then I don't think it's defeatist to try a different method, especially when the one currently in place hasn't worked for the last 40 years.

I don't think that Roe v. Wade is going to be overturned anytime soon. Even if were overturned tomorrow, I would guess that at least half the states would keep abortion legal, so that roughly 90-05% of the population would still have relatively easy access to an abortion provider. Illegal in Va, well come on over to Maryland, it's only a few hour drive away.

I think people like Akin and there no exceptions statement make it harder to convince those on the margins. They need some foreplay.

I don't like the "except the status quo and move forward" plan from a moral perspective, but if the end result is fewer abortions compared to the other plan then it gets m preference.

I feel like this issue is killing us politically and not actually changing anything vis-a-vis decreasing the number of abortions, so for me it's time for a new tactic.

Posted by: taylork at January 22, 2013 04:50 PM (ppNDn)

590 {i}The left never does this to themselves. They never said "we need to drop passing the healthcare bill because a clear majority oppose it. Even though they were wrong, they have balls. They stick to their guns. Period.{/i}

Their politicians don't stick to their guns, not when they're running for office. Their politicians lie.
Does Democrats lying mean we need to go full kamikaze and cede elections to them? I think not.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at January 22, 2013 04:51 PM (ZMzpb)

591 "I can support this, but I suspect you would get the same push back from the left on this as the social conservatives get. I'm open to any tactic that advances the pro-life cause, including dropping the no exception for rape/incest. But I recognize that there is some danger in doing it. I am certainly open to libertarian routes of persuasion."

Frankly, I used to believe that the libertarian route was really not even something to consider. But seeing how the country is moving, I find it becoming more and more important to consider.

Gay marriage for example, which I support, but really not deeply. The legal fight scares me in that I suspect the end game of that is the state forcing churches to marry gays. So, my fear is more about the state encroaching on religion, and the left saying "well, they played the same game we played using state power, so they have to suck it up."

I've become more libertarian over the years and I think it would help the Christian right to do that as well. That does not mean you have to be pro-choice at all. Its more like defending separation of church and state to protect the church, if you get my meaning.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:51 PM (dZQh7)

592 Conservatives need a true conservative TV channel where the worst of these can be filmed and put on TV. It would end immediately.

Posted by: madamex at January 22, 2013 04:53 PM (+kvQd)

593 If you guys said "Its okay to be pro-life but not in cases of rape, or its okay to be reluctantly pro-choice" then it would be different. You are asking for purity tests, which is fine. My backscratch request is a competency test.
----
Here is my purity test, any politician who says they are socially liberal, but fiscally conservative, is probably also going to be very liberal with my money.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 04:55 PM (gmeXX)

594 "The left never does this to themselves. They never said "we need to drop passing the healthcare bill because a clear majority oppose it. Even though they were wrong, they have balls. They stick to their guns. Period."

Nope. They will often retreat to live and fight another day. Hillarycare failed.

I know what you are trying to say - that is a sort of doggedness to the Left and the GOP does not have that, and I agree. But I think their doggedness does not mean they always go for it on 4th down. They punt all the time.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 04:55 PM (dZQh7)

595
Oh, so now all pro-lifers are single issue?
How do you live by yourself without burning the house down?

Posted by: FITP at January 22, 2013 04:56 PM (i22hv)

596 It's not the messaging. The No Exceptions caucus is going to keep on
losing when a substantial majority of the population wants at least the
obvious exceptions (up to and including an abortion-on-demand regime).


I'll support The Exception if and only if the rapist gets an automatic death penalty.

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at January 22, 2013 04:57 PM (xGZ+b)

597 575 occam, you keep confusing Catholic dogma with Mormon revisionism.

Through the 1970s and into the '80s, Mormon official doctrine still taught the original Doctrine and Covenants (and teachings of the first few Mormon presidents) story that spirit children were literal spiritual offspring of God and his plural wives in heaven; and those spirit children await human birth into a (hopefully Mormon temple sanctified 'sealed') family, and hence the sanctity of each pregnancy building personal empire within the Mormon patriarchal order of each Mormon priesthood holder. But now that Mormons have completely sold out their original heritage (that included communism along with polygamy) in order to be popular, as absolute materialists worshiping their personal wealth as a sign of their personal righteousness and favor with God, they've tossed out the baby with the bath water. If the pregnancy houses the spirit child awaiting human birth in its evolution towards becoming itself a God [or plural wife to be perpetually pregnant for eternal life], then abortion would indeed be a crime against God's will, against nature and humanity.

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 22, 2013 04:58 PM (MhA4j)

598 Honestly, many of the GOP themes besides abortion have not worked out well.

a) Many voters don't buy the job creator stuff. They are wrong, but we did not change their mind.

b) The no new taxes pledge makes us look super petty to many joe sixpacks. After the loss, many people seemed relieved to be able to drop that one.

c) Still some connection of the GOP to Wall Street and the super rich. (See b) That link has to be broken, but I fear politicians don't want to do that.

I think the Akin issue hurt because a bunch of demoralized voters suddenly had their hot buttons pushed. I don't know why Mourdock had to follow that up later on.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 05:01 PM (dZQh7)

599 Sexypig - I would welcome a more libertarian view in the GOP. But I don't think the wholesale dumping of social conservatives will improve the GOP's prospects.

Posted by: SH at January 22, 2013 05:07 PM (gmeXX)

600 "The prohibition of public funding for abortion should absolutely be a plank in the GOP platform."



587. THIS.

Constitutionally, we are protected against being prosecuted for our religious convictions. Aside from requiring every American to fund ObamaCare and to medically rely on ObamaCare federal programs, ObamaCare requires federal funding of all abortions, regardless. These are major points of contention with well over the 35% of Americans who want abortions to be illegal, and the massive grassroots uprising protesting ObamaCare's passage. By having legalized abortion, the liberal-progressives have marketed the "right" to an abortion as an "entitlement" -- which is NOT legitimate. It is also not the "right" of the government, regardless of level, to mandate subservience to eugenics, and to pay for your own mandated medical maltreatment through ObamaCare, with the IRS prepared to jail you and abscond with all your private personal property for noncompliance.

But tell that to Congress which has written off human life as mere fodder to be manipulated for more taxation and for Congressional re-election.

Fuck the GOP for fucking Americans, especially for killing the middle class through political authoritarian "shared values" with the Democrat Party. The Republican Party Leadership refuses to distinguish our Bill of Rights from authoritarian Executive Orders.

Posted by: panzernashorn at January 22, 2013 05:15 PM (MhA4j)

601 SH, I am trying to find a dialectic for libertarians and social conservatives. IMHO, unless the social conservatives embrace libertarian views as a bulwark against state intrusion into their own values, and instead keep duking it out with the progressives for who gets to pass the intrusive laws, then the progressives will win the culture, win the LIV, and the so-cons will get neither the power to use the state to their will, or the freedom from the state.

Posted by: sexypig at January 22, 2013 05:16 PM (dZQh7)

602 Mothers Who Murder......should we out those who have abortions like the legal gun owners were outed? A bit of their own medicine?

Posted by: Angelfire at January 22, 2013 05:23 PM (J5ZY4)

603 Seen the pro-abortion "Happy 40th Anniversary, Baby" TV spot, with the Barry White back-beat, the roses and the mack daddy sweet talk? I though it was only creepy until the sonofabitch laughed liked Baron Samedi. That reminded me, who was that actor, dancer? You, know, "Un-Cola nuts, they grow here too"?

I went and looked it up, not trusting memory. His name was Geoffrey Holder.

Posted by: comatus at January 22, 2013 05:23 PM (qaVK+)

604 If the poll is accurate, Ace thinks it is. This is not a country to be proud of.

The good news is killing the old and infirm, will save a shit load of money, and effort.

Add in retards, malcontents, and "them". You will save even more. Let the whole town go back to nature. Awesome.

Posted by: nip at January 22, 2013 06:04 PM (11Tdq)

605 The power to destroy a thing is the absolute control over it.....We are not here to discuss,or to negotiate, or to compromise.

Posted by: Pre-partum Baby Killers at January 22, 2013 06:05 PM (biyRu)

606 jwest-Thank you. I'm a fallen Catholic, looking at convertin to Judaism, but once upon a time I went to both Catholic middle and high school-I know all about their teachings. I also have a friend whose mother has a terminal illness and who has taken it upon himself to do the deed after she told him she wanted to kill herself with her revolver (incidentally, my friend and his family vote R). So long as euthanasia is entirely voluntary, and no one is forced into it against their will, it is not wrong. Im pissed at some commentators (Miss Radish?) for stating that the state would decide on euthanasia. We are all opposed to that, the question is does the the date have the right to tell someone they must suffer an agonizing death if the person wants to escape such a fate.
Only the most asshole god would condemn someone for not wanting to go through their muscles and body rot slowly. I love my Cathlic mentors and friends, but really at this point the only reason I have doubts on converting is that it's more politically expedient to be Christian, and as a dumbass idealistic youngster I want to run for office someday. (Yes I am of the school that believes in hiding ones agenda, and in lying bein acceptable to achieve ones end. If it worked so well for Obama, then we on the right ought to give it a try. Incrementalism baby. Besides, to quote an old Gunny of mine "if you ain't cheating you ain't trying." Stuffing ballot boxes=heinous crime. Saying that you believe in free shit to get elected and cut free shit spending and establish a more powerful foreign policy=what we should have done all along

Posted by: Danny at January 22, 2013 06:38 PM (XGC62)

607 *state

Posted by: Danny at January 22, 2013 06:39 PM (XGC62)

608
My wife and I werepolitically activepro-lifers until late last year. Lately, we've come to realize that laws will never effect change in that area. Abortion is the 2nd Amendment to the left. They will revolt before they give it up. Abortion can only be changed on a personal cultural level, one mind at a time.

Basically, we've decided that it is no longer an issue that we factor in our votes.

Posted by: JustLikeDavidHasselhoff at January 22, 2013 07:19 PM (MNWe/)

609 Abortion is the 2nd Amendment to the left. They will revolt before they give it up. Abortion can only be changed on a personal cultural level, one mind at a time.

Basically, we've decided that it is no longer an issue that we factor in our votes.

Meanwhile, liberals pass anti-gun laws and try their damndest to make their view of guns the primary one. And you know, they probably hope they can outlast pro-2nd-amendment people.

Do you really believe 'the laws will never change' on either abortion or the 2nd amendment? And if they don't change, do you think it may have something to do with the fact that people keep fighting on them, rather than giving up?

Posted by: Crude at January 22, 2013 08:21 PM (P0eiX)

610 Obama is forcing Catholics (actual ones, not Democrats who say they are) to abort babies, and pro-lifers are overplaying their hand? Really?

Posted by: Baldy at January 22, 2013 10:37 PM (opS9C)

611 The only thing worse than single-issue extremists are those who are single-issue extremists about things that don't matter in the first place.

1) Conservative women don't have abortions.
2) Leftist idiots and other nincompoops do.

I'm supposed to have a problem with that?

Laws about abortion don't matter for the simple reason that anyone inclined to think abortion is wrong isn't going to seek out an abortion regardless of what the law says in the matter.

Besides, I do not care whether my existential enemies murder their unborn children. Yeah, you heard me. Some Marxism loving skank wants to roto-root her womb, I'm not going to stop her. Meanwhile I don't have to worry about conservative women becoming pregnant before they are ready for the most part, and I don't have to worry that those who do are going to seek an abortion, for the most part. Those rare few conservative women who do get an abortion are not worth troubling myself over when our nation is literally drowning in public debt. I have more important things to worry about.

Conservatives, and Republicans by extension, have wasted decades pissing and moaning about about the fact that abortion is legal. The left has literally played us on this issue now for 40 years. The left got more converts among women with their "choice" arguments than with anything else. We could always be counted on to wax psychotic over this issue on command.

What do we have to show for it? A youth culture that is alienated from us which means a future without us in it. American politics truly is a contest between evil and stupid.

Posted by: Lee Reynolds at January 23, 2013 06:27 AM (waa/k)






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