Piers Morgan Continuing to Model His Career After Geraldo Rivera

Don't let the accent (which isn't a particularly educated accent, by the way) fool you; he's a British tabloid hound, through and through, and hopes that Americans are so impressed by a British accent they won't notice that he's a carnival barker.

Below, Morgan does his Geraldo Act with Alex Jones. Jones makes a few good points, misses some others, and then offers up tangential bits of paranoia about psychiatrists and their Suicide Pills, sounding a bit like Tom Cruise or L. Ron Hubbard. (I always notice that the fanciful mindset tends to be indiscriminate about its phantoms; a conspiracist will believe in seven conspiracies, not one, and someone who believes in ghosts will almost certainly also believe in two or more of the following: UFOs, Atlantis, faeries in the garden, astral projection, pyramid power, Rosecrucianism, psychic abilities, Shadow People, and/or Bigfoot.)

Two points: Piers Morgan thinks of himself as a Thinker, I guess, but he doesn't think much about the long view of history. And yes, Jones is right, that in the long view of history, most governments do wind up becoming tyrannical. One could take the short view, as he prefers, and say "our government isn't totalitarian now," but that's just avoiding the evidence.

It is a sad fact -- sad, but still a fact -- that governments do tend to become tyrannical. Political scientists often wonder what it is about America, specifically, that permits it to function as a democracy under its Constitution, whereas a dozen other nations that have implemented a version of America's charter wound up being tyrannies, military juntas, within five or ten years.

So anyone who is even slightly informed about governments and history realizes that America is pretty special for having resisted this horrible trend for so long; and anyone who thinks about the question looks to find particular reasons why American so resisted. Was it the legacy of English non-governmental culture, such as capitalism, banking, property law, and so on? Was it just simple prosperity, and that a rich country doesn't experience the same tumults, revolutions, and counter-revolutions that poorer countries do?

(One may ask if it's religion, but then, Latin America is very religious and constantly repeats the cycle of constitution-leftist revolution-authoritarian counter-revolution.)

Point is, there is something that makes America different (or different, at least, until recently), and one should therefore be very cautious about changing parts of the American culture. One or more of the cultural traditions of America have kept it from taking the same path as Venezuela, or Germany, or Italy, or Vietnam, or France. We might not know which (or at least we, as a group, may argue about which), but it takes a very thick-headed person to consider this and then decide to start changing America to be more like every other country, every other country, that is, which has experienced totalitarianism, fascism, revolution, and general social catastrophe.

Morgan's -- and most other's -- empty-headedness on this point recalls Chesterton's paradox of the wall:

In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."

This paradox rests on the most elementary common sense. The gate or fence did not grow there. It was not set up by somnambulists who built it in their sleep. It is highly improbable that it was put there by escaped lunatics who were for some reason loose in the street. Some person had some reason for thinking it would be a good thing for somebody. And until we know what the reason was, we really cannot judge whether the reason was reasonable.

And that's precisely the other point in my mind. Consider Sergent Hack:

Word has it that the White House, Democrats, and gun control advocates are planning to try to “overwhelm” the National Rifle Association when the battle over guns heats up this month. Along these lines, perhaps the most important news of the morning is that Gabrielle Giffords is unveiling a new national effort to push for sensible gun reforms in the wake of the Newtown shooting, with the explicit purpose of counterbalancing the NRA’s influence over Congress.

Or this, from Piers Morgan:

"That kind of vitriol, hatred, and zealotry is really quite scary. I didn't feel threatened by him, but I'm concerned that someone like him has that level of influence," Morgan said. "There's got to be a level of discourse that can rise above what happened last night. It was undignified, unedifying."

You deliberately staged a Geraldo-with-Nazis-style heated confrontation with someone, took part in it, promoted it for ratings, and now you want to claim that the discussion that ensued was of an "undignified, unedifying" level of discourse?

Both Greg Sergent smuggle a lot of not-quite-hidden assumptions into words like "sensible" and "dignified, edifying." What they do not say, but which is readily apparent, is that a sensible, dignified, edifying conversation can only be had with someone who accepts nearly all of their baseline assumptions and policy preferences ab initio. That's not a discussion -- that's a group hug. But only people who begin with these assumptions, they claim, can take useful role in the "discussion," which means the discussion, from the start, isn't a discussion at all.

But tying this into Chesterton's wall: My problem with Morgan and Sergent is their ignorance. They cannot tell me why the wall exists -- or, here, they cannot tell me the benefits of fairly free gun ownership. Obviously, there must be some, or the nation would not have had fairly-free gun ownership for 240 years, and the NRA would not have a 59% approval rating, and 100 million Americans would not own guns, otherwise.

But can they actually explain the other side of the argument? As they say, a good lawyer, one who really understands the issues of the case, can argue either side of it effectively. He may favor one side over the other, but he knows enough of both to make a strong case for either.

Sergent and Morgan couldn't do that. They have a simple-minded understanding that Guns are Bad and do not have the intellectual curiosity to discover, even though it's actually part of their jobs to do so, in what ways Guns May Be Good, or, at least, the reasons people might think Guns May Be Good.

The case for prohibition is always the same: Those advocating for prohibition always claim there is nothing good in the thing they would prohibit, and that anyone who claims or believes otherwise is somehow corrupted, morally or just mentally, and simply wrong.

But we know that's almost never been the case in any single case of prohibition: Wine and liquor are not without value; obviously millions of people value them. Why?, the prohibitionists should have asked. And they should have further have asked, Is it civil to use the law to push our own limited, provincial view of things on millions of others?

Same with marijuana, frankly. Most of us (including me) don't like pot, don't like most people who use pot (or at least don't like the pot-headed sort of culture that goes with it), and so ourselves find no value in it. But obviously millions of other people do find value in it-- are we really acting in a civil fashion to use political power to essentially make our own preferences the controlling law which binds everyone?

Same with homosexuality, once upon a time, 30 or 40 years ago, when anti-homosexuality laws were occasionally enforced -- it is trivially easy for heterosexuals to find no value in homosexual sex, given that we don't like it (and in fact are repelled at the idea of taking part in it ourselves); thus it's also quite easy to support a regime of official prohibition. After all, we find no value in it. So why not ban it? Of course, gays and lesbians might find more value in it than we are willing to credit it for.

People generally have a built-in bias in favor of the prohibition of things they themselves don't like. From SUVs to Big Gulps, people will gladly -- enthusiastically -- impose prohibitions on any product they themselves don't use or any action they don't themselves partake in.

This is a very bad habit of people, and illiberal (in the old sense of "illiberal"), and people should be keenly aware of this bias that lurks within them, the bias in favor of government action to compel the "victory" of one cultural preference over another.

Morgan, Sergent, and the rest of the liberal blockheads all have this simple-minded and ugly belief that their culture -- urban, liberal, wealthy (or at least mixing in the circles of those who may become wealthy in their later years) -- is not merely a culture, with its own mix of arbitrary class prejudices and class beliefs, but the culture, the plainly superior one, the one that is so demonstrably correct that one should have no trepidation whatsoever about attempting the mobilize the coercive powers of the government to make their culture the legally mandated one.

And at no point in this process do they ever find within themselves the intellectual curiosity, or simple humility, to ask: Why do some people disagree so sharply, and is there any truth in their arguments?

We know their claims front-and-back, and they could only guess at ours (or offer poorly-informed parodies of them). But they're the smart ones, the intellectuals, the thinkers. Right?

Posted by: Ace at 04:08 PM



Comments

1 Rosecrucianism been berry berry good to me.

Posted by: Thorvald at January 08, 2013 04:11 PM (1V6Pv)

2 Here is the follow up - now with more Conspiracy!

http://tinyurl.com/agloddz

Posted by: RWC at January 08, 2013 04:11 PM (fWAjv)

3 It isn't paranoia if they're out to get you.
_

Posted by: BumperStickerist at January 08, 2013 04:11 PM (RuUvx)

4 Word has it that the White House, Democrats, and gun control advocates are planning to try to “overwhelm” the National Rifle Association when the battle over guns heats up this month.
___
Yeah good luck with that.

Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 04:12 PM (jm/9g)

5 It's at times like these that I wish Christopher Hitchens would rise from the grave and bugger Piers Morgan.
_

Posted by: BumperStickerist at January 08, 2013 04:12 PM (RuUvx)

6 The best thing about Peirs Morgan was back when he tried to act like the Serious Critic on America's Got Talent. What a hoot!

Posted by: Cricket at January 08, 2013 04:13 PM (DrC22)

7 Conspiracy folk should be ignored.

Posted by: Stonecutters at January 08, 2013 04:14 PM (XvHmy)

8 (I always notice that the fanciful mindset tends to be indiscriminate about its phantoms;

Aw geez, didn't we just go over that this morning...?

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Lord Commander of the Ampersand Army at January 08, 2013 04:14 PM (GBXon)

9 Nominations now being accepted from everyone who read every word of the post.

Posted by: Cricket at January 08, 2013 04:15 PM (DrC22)

10 you're right on this. modern liberalism is essentially about writing conservatism out of rational discourse, so that liberalism becomes the default "reasonable" position.

that's why, although it's fun, mocking liberal intolerance kinda misses the point -- it's part of the package. they're not gonna tolerate ideas they've deemed irrational.

i don't support trying to reverse-engineer this, but i do support the Right trying to reframe arguments, rather than try to debate the Left on its own terms where the game is rigged.

Posted by: JDP at January 08, 2013 04:15 PM (60GaT)

11 This movie was dull and boring. Alex Jones and Piers Morgan were totally unbelievable as conspiracy nutter and tabloid queen.

Posted by: EC at January 08, 2013 04:15 PM (GQ8sn)

12 Man, I ain't gonna see that movie.

Posted by: Rary's Mnemonic Barbell-Workout at January 08, 2013 04:15 PM (3ZtZW)

13 He's annoying enough regardless.

He keeps trotting out that stupid statistic of the UK averaging 35 gun murders per year.

We who oppose them MUST deal with that and ask him what's his point.

Then he will get high and mighty, blah blah blah. Point out SWITZERLAND. Refutes his stupid argument entirely.

Then offensively make fun of the UK as four times more violent than the US. Make fun of their police. Make fun of their "armed gangs". Make fun of the fact that they are now more violent than South Africa. make fun of their proposals to ban knives.

All they have done is really disarm themselves. Does anyone remember the fucking riots in Tottenham and other areas recently. Rioters were right outside Londoners flats, and the poor people inside were on social media talking about how scared they were and if the rioters break in all one has to defend yourself and your family is a short fucking kitchen knife.

Awesome.

Posted by: Prescient11 at January 08, 2013 04:15 PM (tVTLU)

14 Conspiracy folk should be ignored.

Posted by: Stonecutters


Well, poo! Who will I have at the Secret Colonoscopist's Ball, then?

Posted by: Zeta Reticulan Ambassador at January 08, 2013 04:15 PM (GBXon)

15 Aw geez, didn't we just go over that this morning...?

That's one of the disadvantages of hanging out at AoSHQ all day.

Posted by: Vizzini at January 08, 2013 04:15 PM (O7Q1u)

16 (I always notice that the fanciful mindset tends to be indiscriminate
about its phantoms; a conspiracist will believe in seven conspiracies,
not one, and someone who believes in ghosts will almost certainly also
believe in two or more of the following: UFOs, Atlantis, faeries in the
garden, astral projection, pyramid power, Rosecrucianism, psychic
abilities, Shadow People, and/or Bigfoot.)


This is what I love about this place. I can't get this anywhere else.


Oh.....and the government is hiding every single one from us.

Posted by: eleven at January 08, 2013 04:15 PM (KXm42)

17 whereas a dozen other nations that have implemented a version of America's charter wound up being tyrannies, military juntas, within five or ten years.

The nation just voted to hasten this process.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:16 PM (Lxw+T)

18 I think the AoSHQ style should perhaps be changed to start using "Disgraced former journalist" Piers Morgan.

Do a search for Piers Morgan Fake Photos.

Posted by: CUS at January 08, 2013 04:16 PM (84pE9)

19 ..someone who believes in ghosts will almost certainly also believe in two
or more of the following: UFOs, Atlantis, faeries in the garden,
astral projection, pyramid power, Rosecrucianism, psychic abilities,
Shadow People, and/or Bigfoot.

...

Posted by: Ace

-----

Ghosts - yup
UFOs - no
Atlantis - possible
faeries in the garden - no
astral projection - no
pyramid power - no
Rosecrucianism - ???
psychic abilities - yes
Shadow People - yes
Bigfoot - no

Posted by: Serious Cat at January 08, 2013 04:17 PM (UypUQ)

20 The best thing about Peirs Morgan was back when he tried to act like the Serious Critic on America's Got Talent. What a hoot!
Posted by: Cricket at January 08, 2013 04:13 PM (DrC22)

The best thing about Peirs Morgan dripped down his mothers leg

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 08, 2013 04:17 PM (9Bj8R)

21 Nominations now being accepted from everyone who read every word of the post.

I did. No. Please! Not the barrelllll!

Posted by: rickb223 at January 08, 2013 04:17 PM (GFM2b)

22 Oh.....and the government is hiding every single one from us.
Posted by: eleven at January 08, 2013 04:15 PM (KXm42)

Do you mean the forty people that were in Bengahzi on 9/11?

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 04:17 PM (l86i3)

23 Lost me on teh gay part. After the AIDS epidemic I'd think it's pretty clear why most cultures have tried to discourage that kind of behavior for thousands of years.

Posted by: jeanne at January 08, 2013 04:17 PM (GdalM)

24 This movie was dull and boring. Alex Jones and Piers Morgan were totally unbelievable as conspiracy nutter and tabloid queen.

Stop complaining. At least they cut out the nude scene.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:17 PM (Lxw+T)

25 If you think Jones' rants against Prozac and the like are nothing more than paranoia, you've never known someone who's taking them. They become zombified. It's very spooky.

And, when Conservatives wonder why the rest of the population isn't as concerned as we, as we watch our once great country sink pretty rapidly into tyranny - these "mood enhancers" are one of the main culprits.

Posted by: fyscyl clyff at January 08, 2013 04:18 PM (cVYiZ)

26 So, this is totally OT, but if the Dems want $1T more in revenue (according to the sidebar) then why don't they just mint a $1T platinum coin? I mean, the argument on that is that it is no problem, there is no inflationary aspect, whatever, why not just mint the coin instead of taxing?

Shit, cut all the taxes. Negative taxation!

Posted by: Golan Globus at January 08, 2013 04:18 PM (uk1a1)

27 Legitimate question ace,
Under this rubric, why ban heroin? After all, we may find no value in it, but the Junkie totally does.
It's a interesting form of argument, but this way lies relativism, and I'm not comfortable with that. Is it not perhaps better to discuss the legitimate role of government with regard to natural rights that are given to us by a creato....oh, wait nevermind, can't do that these days.
Carry on, Relativism it is! (Nietzsche or Aristotle, Benedict and Trotsky!)

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 08, 2013 04:18 PM (ULkyQ)

28 someone who believes in ghosts will almost certainly also believe in two
or more of the following: UFOs, Atlantis, faeries in the garden,
astral projection, pyramid power, Rosecrucianism, psychic abilities,
Shadow People, and/or Bigfoot.


Constitution: No

Posted by: John Roberts, philosopher-king at January 08, 2013 04:18 PM (Lxw+T)

29 Don't mind me...

Posted by: Slender Man at January 08, 2013 04:18 PM (XvHmy)

30
"There's got to be a level of discourse that can rise above what happened last night. It was undignified, unedifying."
This from Piers Morgan? Holy hell, the lack of self-awareness almost hurts. This should be his disclaimer after every show.

Posted by: Heralder at January 08, 2013 04:18 PM (+xmn4)

31 Piers Morgan is played like a Bagpiper

Posted by: Sanmon at January 08, 2013 04:18 PM (1VIyB)

32 Serious Cat,

So you believe in the incorporeal ones, huh, and reject the corporeal ones (Bigfoot, etc.)?

I guess if I had to choose I'd go with the incorporeal ones too. There is less disproving them, since they're intangible.

I'll tell my shadow people story in a post. I don't know if it's funny. I thought itw was funny.

Posted by: ace at January 08, 2013 04:19 PM (LCRYB)

33 >>>All they have done is really disarm themselves.

And put spy cameras everywhere. Make sure when selling the peace you includePOLICE STATEas part of the price.

Posted by: Rary's Mnemonic Barbell-Workout at January 08, 2013 04:19 PM (3ZtZW)

34
#cutting4deportation

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 08, 2013 04:19 PM (oKVrA)

35 In other words, the fallacy is this:

1) The US is flooded with guns, and has a very high gun murder rate

2) In the UK we have banned all guns and only have 35 gun murders a year

3) Thus access to weapons means one has a high gun murder rate.

4) This is disproved by Switzerland, 3rd highest gun ownership per capita in the WORLD, it is a first world country, and many of its private guns are full blown military issue.

5) Switzerland has one of the lowest murder rates in the world.

Guns do not cause murder. Period. What's the next argument Piers??

Posted by: Prescient11 at January 08, 2013 04:19 PM (tVTLU)

36 Reuters Top News

@Reuters
FLASH: Venezuela's Hugo Chavez to miss Thursday's scheduled swearing-in for new term, government says

????That's a "Flash" to Reuters? Has anyone told them Fransico Franco is dead yet?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 08, 2013 04:20 PM (9Bj8R)

37 "Political scientists often wonder what it is about America, specifically, that permits it to function as a democracy under its Constitution, whereas a dozen other nations that have implemented a version of America's charter wound up being tyrannies, military juntas, within five or ten years."


According to Tocqueville, it was the "Anglo-Saxons."

Posted by: Cricket at January 08, 2013 04:20 PM (DrC22)

38 Stop complaining. At least they cut out the nude scene.

Oh, joy. "Brokeback Talkshow" it is.

Posted by: Zeta Reticulan Ambassador at January 08, 2013 04:20 PM (GBXon)

39 One of my guilty pleasures is the cons[piracy theory TV show "Unsealed". I love to watch people being completely credulous about everything.

Posted by: eleven at January 08, 2013 04:20 PM (KXm42)

40 27
Under this rubric, why ban heroin?

yeah, and Lortab OTC, baby! I would find value in that.

Posted by: jeanne at January 08, 2013 04:20 PM (GdalM)

41 OT: from "Watts Up With That "

The other big story today: BBC forced to admit global warming 'static'

http://wp.me/p7y4l-k5u

Posted by: The Political Hat at January 08, 2013 04:20 PM (XvHmy)

42 Darned sock.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 04:20 PM (GBXon)

43 #cutting4Bigfoot

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:21 PM (Lxw+T)

44 Does anyone remember the fucking riots in Tottenham and other areas recently.
--
yes London was aflame-ing. NTTAWTT

Posted by: jeanne at January 08, 2013 04:17 PM (GdalM)
pre - AIDS making the headlines, I remember my gay friends talking about various and sundry ailments they needed treatment for that first world heteros rarely experienced, such as amoebic.

TMI?

Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 04:21 PM (jm/9g)

45 The only part of TV that is not a Geek Act, pure and simple, is trivial.
Except, it is killing the people who watch it.
Kill your TV. With extreme prejudice. Follow all local laws in this regard.
And, while I do not condone killing journalists, something does have to be done about them.
William F. Buckley, Jr., last century advocated horse-whipping journalist Drew Pearson, a Stalinist. Dr. Samuel Johnson, in the 18th-c., condoned freedom of the press, as well as freedom of the cudgel. Perhaps a non-lethal drug cocktail that causes extreme discomfort for several hours. Immobilized, slack-jawed, they are forced to watch their own product ad nauseum.
Or, water-boarding.
Yes, thank you, much better now.

Posted by: Thorvald at January 08, 2013 04:21 PM (1V6Pv)

46 "you're right on this. modern liberalism is essentially about writing conservatism out of rational discourse, so that liberalism becomes the default "reasonable" position."

One of the sneaky ways they continue to do this is to re-label conservative ideas in a scarier-sounding package. Conservative in and of itself is not an unpopular moniker. Throw the word "tea party" around, and suddenly the very same ideology becomes this extremist cult. In that vein, tea party is the new neocon. Instead of debating ideas, all you have to do is bat around a somewhat less popular name for a relatively popular (or not so unpopular) group of individuals and Voila! - the "other" becomes this scary, unhinged entity.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at January 08, 2013 04:22 PM (Ud5vq)

47 I have a simple guideline when I want to ban something - would I want this to occur if it was banning something I like? If not, then don't do it. This is not overly complicated, people.


Let's see, wacky shit I want to believe in - cryptozoology, ley lines, Ancient Aliens and that I, too, can someday get the volume in my hair that Giorgio Tsoukalos does.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 08, 2013 04:22 PM (VtjlW)

48 I wish we controlled the press, because it would be devastating for reporters to ask Gabby Giffords for her thoughts on Fast and Furious.


Posted by: Warden at January 08, 2013 04:22 PM (HzhBE)

49 Every time a 2nd Amendment supporter gets called out by journalistic douche, they should counter with an argument for sensible media reform laws.

Who knows how many mass shootings and copycat killings have been inspired by irresponsible media coverage? If sensible media controls saved only one child, surely it would be worth the effort.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 04:22 PM (SY2Kh)

50 I happen to know that Obama was born on Niburu and slipped into this country with the Vietnamese boat people in the late 70s. It's a fact dammit! No conspiracy about it!

Of course Morgan tried to use Jones as his straw man. I like the part where Jones points out Morgan's part in the phone hack thingy

Posted by: butternut at January 08, 2013 04:22 PM (nbYoV)

51 Former Marine Joshua "I am not your subject" Bolton is Puss Morgan's guest tonight. Hopefully the jarhead will rip that POS limey's spine out through his asshole. Rhetorically, of course.

Posted by: Jaws at January 08, 2013 04:22 PM (4I3Uo)

52 I must admit the mainstream news is less credible than any of the many "ghost hunter" reality shows. Less interesting too.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:22 PM (Lxw+T)

53 F that prick.

Posted by: Max Wedge at January 08, 2013 04:23 PM (y56yu)

54 I, too, can someday get the volume in my hair that Giorgio Tsoukalos does.

He's a Centauri. Used to work for Ambassador Molari.

...what, how did you think he had the inside scoop on all things alien...?

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 04:23 PM (GBXon)

55 27

i think it's just a general principle of empathizing with other people and realizing that holding even certain batshit crazy viewpoints doesn't make the person wholly irrational.

of course, you could still come to the conclusion that a certain position is in fact batshit crazy.

Posted by: JDP at January 08, 2013 04:23 PM (60GaT)

56 I pointed out to my 8th grade son that citizens of England do not enjoy freedom of speech, have no right to self-defense in their homes, can't own guns, and that there's a national religion.

He was ... surprised.

I then pointed out that Germany and Italy are both younger as nations than the US.

He was ... surprised.

-

Posted by: BumperStickerist at January 08, 2013 04:23 PM (RuUvx)

57 48 - I would literally pay to see that.

Posted by: Heralder at January 08, 2013 04:23 PM (+xmn4)

58 #waterboarding4Bieber

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:23 PM (Lxw+T)

59 If you think Jones' rants against Prozac and the like are nothing more than paranoia, you've never known someone who's taking them. They become zombified. It's very spooky.

Prozac is for pikers. Thorazine is king!

Posted by: rickb223 at January 08, 2013 04:24 PM (GFM2b)

60 >>>Under this rubric, why ban heroin? After all, we may find no value in it, but the Junkie totally does.
It's a interesting form of argument, but this way lies relativism, and I'm not comfortable with that.

1, I'm not sure we should keep heroin banned, but obviously we'd need to see where the marijuana decriminalization experiment goes first.

2, checking a bias doesn't necessarily mean that there are NO counterveiling circumstances serious enough to justify a prohibition. But I think people should be generally mindful that we all have this bais -- if we don't like something, we are all sort of inclined to say 'sure, let's ban it."

3, I don't see what "relativism" has to do with this. My idea is government as, basically, a business, like a hotel, permitting guests to use their rooms as they like, within reasons. If you want to have sex with someone else's wife, fine, we the hotel (or we the government) are not checking up on your marital status. Similary, we have giddeon's bibles in the drawers. And porn on the TV, though it takes a special code to access it.

Point is, the government should act as if it is a *stranger* to you, and conduct itself as a stranger would, with deference and without making all sorts of bossypants assumptions.

The government is not a Father. A father is not a stranger; we accept fathers might have somehting to say about our moral choices. We do not expect that a stranger should, and we get angry when a stranger so presumes.

Posted by: ace at January 08, 2013 04:24 PM (LCRYB)

61 Less Piers Morgan.

More Captain Morgan.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 08, 2013 04:24 PM (oKVrA)

62 Posted by: BumperStickerist at January 08, 2013 04:23 PM (RuUvx)

I guess your school doesn't teach about WWII?

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 08, 2013 04:25 PM (ULkyQ)

63 Personally, I see no value in bestiality or pederasty.
But, you know, to each his own.

Posted by: The Bullshit Flag at January 08, 2013 04:25 PM (I7O5y)

64 More Captain Morgan.

Let us ruminate on that.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:25 PM (Lxw+T)

65

>>And at no point in this process do they ever find within themselves the
intellectual curiosity, or simple humility, to ask: Why do some people
disagree so sharply, and is there any truth in their arguments?





Because like every other leftist argument, it can't stand on it's own merit and it's not for the noble purposes about which it bloviates.
You can't engage an Alinsky acolyte in reasonable discourse, they're too busy targeting, ridiculing and isolating.

And firearms to these statists are like crucifixes to Dracula.


Posted by: ontherocks at January 08, 2013 04:25 PM (aZ6ew)

66 Less Piers Morgan.



More Captain Morgan.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 08, 2013 04:24 PM (oKVrA)

Even more Lorna Morgan!

Posted by: EC at January 08, 2013 04:26 PM (GQ8sn)

67 Ace,

What a fantastic snippet re Chesterton. I may have to read him. I would also suggest Karl Popper, which absolutely destroys the "know it all" attitude of scientists. Fantastic read.

Posted by: Prescient11 at January 08, 2013 04:26 PM (tVTLU)

68 and realizing that holding even certain batshit crazy viewpoints doesn't make the person wholly irrational.

Well said.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ #NukeIowaCity at January 08, 2013 04:26 PM (ZKzrr)

69 Piers Morgan is a pussy who needs to be horse-whipped all the way back to bloody England.

Posted by: Francois Arouet at January 08, 2013 04:26 PM (PDRXW)

70 I really do wish pundits on the right would bring up Fast and Furious during every discussion about gun control.


Posted by: Warden at January 08, 2013 04:26 PM (HzhBE)

71 After Piers Morgan cleans America of crime, maybe he can go back to the UK and clean up crime there ...

Oh wait, he's under investigation in the phone hacking scandal

Oh bugger!

Posted by: kbdabear at January 08, 2013 04:26 PM (wwsoB)

72 64 More Captain Morgan.
Let us ruminate on that.
Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:25 PM (Lxw+T)


This is the hill to die on.

Posted by: Cricket at January 08, 2013 04:26 PM (DrC22)

73 "Political scientists often wonder what it is about America, specifically, that permits it to function as a democracy under its Constitution, whereas a dozen other nations that have implemented a version of America's charter wound up being tyrannies, military juntas, within five or ten years."
The same reason that if you put 11 spark plugs in a 12 cylinder its not going to function properly. Close doesn'tcount, and our constitution isn't a horseshoe or handgrenade.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 04:27 PM (m2CN7)

74 and realizing that holding even certain batshit crazy viewpoints doesn't make the person wholly irrational.

Well said.
Posted by: HeatherRadish™ #NukeIowaCity at January 08, 2013 04:26 PM (ZKzrr)


+1!

Posted by: Cher at January 08, 2013 04:27 PM (+xmn4)

75 Piers Morgan is a cornball Limey!

Posted by: Gentleman Rob Parker, challenging the fop to a slap fight at dawn at January 08, 2013 04:27 PM (jm/9g)

76 maybe getting too specific but i think the question of whether the drug war's worked vs. the value in keeping certain drugs stigmatized through criminalization are two different issues

Posted by: JDP at January 08, 2013 04:27 PM (60GaT)

77 59 If you think Jones' rants against Prozac and the like are nothing more than paranoia, you've never known someone who's taking them. They become zombified. It's very spooky.
--------------------------
This is no more "Off base" than "sensible" gun laws. Whether Jones is ultimately correct or not, changes in existing health care practices might have prevented the sandy hook event. Registering weapons would have had no effect on this, since the weapons were already registered in that state.

Posted by: gigg at January 08, 2013 04:27 PM (41VCE)

78 Limit the geography of self-government and let a thousand flowers bloom. A self-governed polity has the right to be wrong.

Just make sure there is a way to escape the wrong minded district to one with good think, as you see it.

If there is no district that thinks like you, build one through persuasion.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 08, 2013 04:27 PM (evdj2)

79 "The British Geraldo" sounds like a ghey sex move.


nttawwt

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 08, 2013 04:27 PM (oKVrA)

80 And firearms to these statists are like crucifixes to Dracula.

Moar firearms!

Posted by: rickb223 at January 08, 2013 04:28 PM (GFM2b)

81 I guess your school doesn't teach about WWII?
-

WWII is a half day of class before three weeks of "Womens Suffrage"

I augment the school stuff with TV. We watch a lot of History Channel so he knows that Squatches were assigned to work as forward air controllers at Normandy and that they got there by UFO.

_

Posted by: BumperStickerist at January 08, 2013 04:28 PM (RuUvx)

82 Legitimate question ace,
Under this rubric, why ban heroin?


Because it's horribly addictive. Unlike weed or booze, there's little "recreational" use of heroin.

While pot and alcohol might be psychologically addictive, heroin and meth are physically addictive. The addict essentially loses the ability to exercise free will with respect to the decision to use or not use.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 04:28 PM (SY2Kh)

83 And firearms to these statists are like crucifixes to Dracula.

I'm pretty sure crucifixes frighten them just as much as pistols.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:29 PM (Lxw+T)

84 ace is right on the money regarding the banning bias.

You saw it w/cigarettes for sure. "I don't smoke and I don't like the smell of smoke, so of course smoking should be banned in bars."

'Uhhh, what about the right of the bar owner to run his business as he sees fit? Why can't one bar owner have a smoking bar and another a non-smoking one?"

"Whatever. I don't like cigarettes."

Posted by: Warden at January 08, 2013 04:29 PM (HzhBE)

85 81 bumperstickerist,

stop you're giving me flashbacks.


Goddamned Bill Ayers.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:29 PM (LRFds)

86 so, wave after wave of legislation that's going to die in the House?

That's the left's big push?

Posted by: joeindc44 wonders if anyone has any advice for the GOP at January 08, 2013 04:29 PM (QxSug)

87 If we all meditate and focus on our crystals, we can project that energy into the Dems so they will see the error of their ways.

Posted by: Marmo at January 08, 2013 04:29 PM (QW+AD)

88 24
This movie was dull and boring. Alex Jones and Piers Morgan were totally unbelievable as conspiracy nutter and tabloid queen.



Stop complaining. At least they cut out the nude scene.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:17 PM

Did you see the fiscal cliff post on the link in your nic?

Posted by: kbdabear at January 08, 2013 04:30 PM (wwsoB)

89 Posted by: ace at January 08, 2013 04:24 PM (LCRYB)

Reasonable counter point, I suppose. I suppose my only caveat would be that we continue to ban some things because the argument is that on the whole the benefit seen by some people is outweighed by the total drain on society.

So even if we allow Mary Jane to go back on the market, Meth may stay banned not because we see no benefit to it, but because having even a fraction of a percentage of people going on Meth crazed attacks is bad for society no matter what benefit the tweakers get. (Although I suppose that's just a specific case of your "arguments against" clause.)

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 08, 2013 04:30 PM (ULkyQ)

90 "The British Geraldo" sounds like a ghey sex move.

I felt that way after having to watch "The English Patient."

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:30 PM (Lxw+T)

91 More Captain Morgan.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 08, 2013 04:24 PM (oKVrA)

Germany:
http://tinyurl.com/a82t45p (reuters)

There is no far right menace, beyond the assorted neo-Nazi groupuscules that are regarded with disgust by the vast majority. The far left party – Die Linke – is split and faltering, displaced in state elections by the jolly Pirates Party.


Get Pierce an eyepatch.

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at January 08, 2013 04:30 PM (0It32)

92 I continue to believe that mankind has a chance when there were hunting parties organized to "avenge" Steve Irwin's death at the hands of a sting ray.

Purely fucking awesome. Yes, it makes no sense. Yes, why should all stingrayshave to pay for one's mistake... But we have balls and are pissed and want some fucking retribution. Awesome.

That and the fascination with bigfoot. How do these guys ALWAYS get a shit ton of reporters at these things?? I keep laughing where they had that picture of bigfoot in a meat locker. As if somehow they couldn't roll him into the press conference!! absolutely hilarious.

Posted by: Prescient11 at January 08, 2013 04:30 PM (tVTLU)

93 While pot and alcohol might be psychologically addictive, heroin and
meth are physically addictive. The addict essentially loses the ability
to exercise free will with respect to the decision to use or not use.


Good said.

Posted by: eleven at January 08, 2013 04:30 PM (KXm42)

94 Nominations now being accepted from everyone who read every word of the post.

That's why Andrew went straight to the Comments.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at January 08, 2013 04:31 PM (kqqGm)

95 75-- hah! But I think unfortunately Morgan is not just a "cornball Limey," I think he's a REAL Limey.

Unfortunately.... I always wish to like the British, but how far they have fallen. How horribly far.

Was it CS Lewis who said sophistication is the process of trading your jewels for baubles? Well the British are very sophisticated in that sense.

Posted by: ace at January 08, 2013 04:31 PM (LCRYB)

96 i don't support trying to reverse-engineer this, but
i do support the Right trying to reframe arguments, rather than try to
debate the Left on its own terms where the game is rigged.


Posted by: JDP at January 08, 2013 04:15 PM (60GaT)

Excellent JDP. My thoughts exactly. I'm tired of being painted as an 'extremist' because I want the government small, and uphold the simple principles expressed by the DOI and Constitution. This Alice in Wonderland gig they are promoting will not end well.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at January 08, 2013 04:31 PM (zpqa2)

97 Ghosts - yup(I "is" one)
UFOs - yup
Atlantis - possible
faeries in the garden - no
astral projection - no
pyramid power - no
Rosecrucianism - ???
psychic abilities - YES
Shadow People - no
Bigfoot - yes/no*

Posted by: Obi Wan Kenobi at January 08, 2013 04:31 PM (SSWdi)

98 Did you see the fiscal cliff post on the link in your nic?


I always knew I would make a better politician than any Republican.

Posted by: James Tiberius Kirk at January 08, 2013 04:31 PM (Lxw+T)

99 Geez, I would have expected such asinine comments on homosexuality from an admitted "progessive".

Posted by: Gerry at January 08, 2013 04:32 PM (Dq97n)

100 I can't understand why Drudge keeps linking Alex Jones' stupid Infowars site. That's one retarded fat fuck.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 04:32 PM (+DMSZ)

101 >>>92 I continue to believe that mankind has a chance when there were hunting parties organized to "avenge" Steve Irwin's death at the hands of a sting ray.


Didn't that work when Bill Murray went after that shark?

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 08, 2013 04:32 PM (oKVrA)

102 The government is not a Father.


And thus ace sums up in six words the entire difference between conservatism and leftist philosophies.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 08, 2013 04:32 PM (VtjlW)

103 This is a fantastic post with fantastic comments.

Yes, bans are to be despised. On anything. I warned that cigarettes were just the beginning.

That's not to say that I'm not for certain things, but if we all are biased against bans or prohibitions, then the ones that survive should actually serve a fucking purpose that means something and is necessary.

Posted by: Prescient11 at January 08, 2013 04:33 PM (tVTLU)

104 46
"you're right on this. modern liberalism is essentially about writing
conservatism out of rational discourse, so that liberalism becomes the
default "reasonable" position."



One of the sneaky ways they continue to do this is to re-label
conservative ideas in a scarier-sounding package. Conservative in and of
itself is not an unpopular moniker. Throw the word "tea party" around,
and suddenly the very same ideology becomes this extremist cult. In that
vein, tea party is the new neocon. Instead of debating ideas, all you
have to do is bat around a somewhat less popular name for a relatively
popular (or not so unpopular) group of individuals and Voila! - the
"other" becomes this scary, unhinged entity.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at January 08, 2013 04:22 PM

Turn it around on them, call them "government drones" or "happy slaves of the government" then watch heads explode. They still think it's "us against THE MAN"

Posted by: kbdabear at January 08, 2013 04:33 PM (wwsoB)

105 94 John P Squibob,

Well Ace had his dancing shoes on for this post, personally I think Piers morgan playing the part of Franz kafka would be nice.....

long speech....cue giant ant eating Piers Morgan.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:33 PM (LRFds)

106
This follows the typical MSNBC interview formula.

Either get as stupid a conservative as possible or one who can't help but rant and rave like a lunatic. Regardless of how weak the liberal argument is, they will still come appearing smarter and more reasonable.

Posted by: jwest at January 08, 2013 04:33 PM (ZDsRL)

107
I can't understand why Drudge keeps linking Alex Jones' stupid Infowars site. That's one retarded fat fuck.


Hit whoring.

Posted by: EC at January 08, 2013 04:34 PM (GQ8sn)

108 Dr. Varno:

I still love that movie.

Posted by: Prescient11 at January 08, 2013 04:34 PM (tVTLU)

109 >>>I suppose my only caveat would be that we continue to ban some things because the argument is that on the whole the benefit seen by some people is outweighed by the total drain on society.

if you're going to speak of second-order (indirect) evils, it's only proper to also bring up second-order, indirect goods. Like cops who focus more on what we'd call "real crime," crime where there is a definite victim. Or a society in which you're generally freer to do whatever you like, even if it's a "mistake."

Posted by: ace at January 08, 2013 04:34 PM (LCRYB)

110 102 Alex the chick,

Yup "dancing shoes"....

like I said in the running rebuttal during the first debate between Mitt and choom "Barry I've got a dad"

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:34 PM (LRFds)

111 Ace, I liked "Tabloid Wanker" better.

Just sayin.

Posted by: Daybrother at January 08, 2013 04:34 PM (+paCV)

112 One thing that baffles me is those people that claim the Constitution isn't relevant anymore or blame the state of our contry on it. They just can't wrap their heads around the possibility that we are in deep doo-doo today because we've strayed way too far from the Constitution.

Posted by: Marmo at January 08, 2013 04:34 PM (QW+AD)

113 Under this rubric, why ban heroin? After all, we may find no value in it, but the Junkie totally does.It's a interesting form of argument, but this way lies relativism, and I'm not comfortable with that. Is it not perhaps better to discuss the legitimate role of government with regard to natural rights that are given to us by a creato....oh, wait nevermind, can't do that these days.Carry on, Relativism it is! (Nietzsche or Aristotle, Benedict and Trotsky!)
Posted by: tsrblke (work) at January 08, 2013 04:18 PM (ULkyQ)


---------------------------------------------


Local and/or regional societies will establish the morality. It's one of the elements that the founders had to overcome to satisfy the various colonies into signing the Constituion. It's why we have a Bill of Rights. It guaranteed natural rights to all citizens without introducing set moral values.

It's one of the big reasons we have the 10th Amendment. The founders knew that the different states and/or regions were going to have different values and norms. So they said, go for it. The federal government will not interfere unless it usurps the rights layed down in the Constitution.

Posted by: Soona at January 08, 2013 04:34 PM (J/7oO)

114 Well this cheered me up

http://youtu.be/bavou_SEj1E

Posted by: gigg at January 08, 2013 04:34 PM (41VCE)

115 "The government is not a Father. "

... and when we had thought about it long enough we declared war.

Posted by: Lone Watie at January 08, 2013 04:35 PM (RuUvx)

116

Oh thank God.



Anybody got a bandaid?

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 08, 2013 04:36 PM (1Y+hH)

117 Is it too late to dig up Larry King for his old job?

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 08, 2013 04:36 PM (oKVrA)

118 Legalise all drugs, including Heroin. There's always going to be fcuked-up people [witness Piers] just like there's always goonna be the poor

Posted by: Bigby's Golf-Clapping Hands at January 08, 2013 04:36 PM (3ZtZW)

119
Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!

Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs the cave fish of their site?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!

Posted by: Stonecutters at January 08, 2013 04:36 PM (8wlFX)

120
Great post. Debating with a lefty is like reasoning with a drunken monkey who feels superior because he throws poop at his keepers and they clean it up.
Ask a leftist to explain their antipathy for conservatism and all you get is condescending gibberish and insults, feelings, nothing more than feelings, with maybe a fake statistic from moveon or MediaMatters if you have a post-college graduate on your hands. It's all emotional, all feeling little or no thinking. They are so pampered and sheltered from opposing view points that all they know about them is that they're "bad" and "wrong" and "racist" and "sexist." Also, they don't understand fundamentals because they've never been taught such foreign concepts; that's for retards, southerners, and wingnuts, not for enlightened nuanced highly evolved humans such as Me.

Posted by: AMartel at January 08, 2013 04:36 PM (1Bqk7)

121 While pot and alcohol might be psychologically
addictive, heroin and meth are physically addictive. The addict
essentially loses the ability to exercise free will with respect to the
decision to use or not use.


Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 04:28 PM (SY2Kh)

I'd say legalize, then put all the tax money derived into treatment centers.
We have to get rid of the Drug War and the black market it comes with.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:37 PM (xAtAj)

122 I did. No. Please! Not the barrelllll!
Posted by: rickb223 at January 08, 2013 04:17 PM (GFM2b)


The barrel. No, not for you. For being a diligent 'ron you get a steak.

http://tinyurl.com/bb73ulw

Posted by: RWC at January 08, 2013 04:37 PM (fWAjv)

123 118 Bigby's Golf Clapping Hands,

I've done a 180...I figure we can combine BarryCare with legalization to kill off a LOT of people who are darwin candidates on a long enough timeline.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:37 PM (LRFds)

124 I'd say legalize, then put all the tax money derived into treatment centers.
We have to get rid of the Drug War and the black market it comes with.


Taxing anything creates a black market. The higher the tax, the bigger the underworld.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 08, 2013 04:38 PM (evdj2)

125 120 AMartel,

Yup....part of why I quit Twitter was Ms Suarez a moonbat who wanted her own facts.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:38 PM (LRFds)

126 I'd make a thousand dollar bet that if heroin was legalized use would not even double. I'm actually halfway to believing addiction would go down, as it has in Portugal.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:38 PM (xAtAj)

127 While pot and alcohol might be psychologically addictive, heroin and meth are physically addictive. The addict essentially loses the ability to exercise free will with respect to the decision to use or not use.


-----

Alcohol absolutely is physically addictive. So is caffeine, for that matter---a person with a caffeine addiction will go through physical withdrawal if his/her caffeine is removed, even if there's a placebo (like switching reg. coffee for decaf). Whether or not something is physically addictive is not really the question in banning something.

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 08, 2013 04:38 PM (b+8h9)

128 I'm not a fan of banning things willy-nilly. Were I in charge though, those weak assed electric hand dryers that don't work for shit?

Possession would be punishable by moderate torture.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 04:38 PM (SY2Kh)

129 Gawker published names and locations (2 years old) of registered gun owners in NYC, calling them "assholes" in the headline.

This is what is begat of "sensible" gun legislation.

Posted by: AmishDude at January 08, 2013 04:38 PM (xSegX)

130
Didn't you think Piers Morgan was courageous in that interview?

Who else would be brave enough to sit in the same room with that raving madman? Why, at any moment he could have pulled an automatic assault rifle and killed everyone in the studio.

Posted by: jwest at January 08, 2013 04:39 PM (ZDsRL)

131 I don't believe in any of the conspiracies that are mentioned, but I do believe that barack obama does not only not have this country's best interest in mind, but believe that he actively thinks we need to be punished because...history.

Also those two guys in that video are assholes.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 08, 2013 04:39 PM (p/cQy)

132 They don't value the opposite side of an argument because their principles include blatant sophism.

But not just everyday sophism. It is a tyrannical sophism under-girded by their own undying, unadulterated and unwavering faith in their core beliefs.

It's cult-like in its adherence to the point where they don't give any value to contrary opinions or people who are by nature their opponents.

This is what runs our country today; a bunch of mastermind idealists who think the world should run according to their thoughts simply because they see themselves as superior to other. Facts, real events and proven outcomes have no place because they don't comport with their worldview.

They are accommodating to the point at which they beguile. coerce and fool the people they need to succeed. They twist language, practice ad nauseum mendacity and use circumstance as springboard to further corrupt a society. They use media and organizations to memorialize and hide their agenda to further placate and lull people who are indifferent.

Look at the gun, budget, health-care, et al contemporary issues today. It's frankly very easy to see how this fits together and how someone like Morgan succeeds within it.

Posted by: marcus at January 08, 2013 04:39 PM (GGCsk)

133 HEY, leave the garden faeries outta this dammit.

Posted by: MadameMayhem at January 08, 2013 04:39 PM (iRgZG)

134 Piers Morgan Continuing to Model His Career After Geraldo Rivera

He's having cosmetic surgery to enhance facial acne scarring.

Posted by: James Tiberius Kirk at January 08, 2013 04:39 PM (Lxw+T)

135 Sergent, Morgan, David Gregory et al do not have the gift of introspection, and that is being polite.

Posted by: Decaf at January 08, 2013 04:39 PM (TJQ3a)

136 129 AmishDude,

they are driving the NYPD into the GOP's arms.


Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:39 PM (LRFds)

137 I'd say legalize, then put all the tax money derived into treatment centers.
We have to get rid of the Drug War and the black market it comes with.
Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:37 PM (xAtAj)

We can legalize drugs once society decides to allow people to die on there own terms without financing anything. Not treatment centers, not hospitals, nothin.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 04:40 PM (l86i3)

138
Taxing anything creates a black market. The higher the tax, the bigger the underworld.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 08, 2013 04:38 PM (evdj2)

It's like saying our illicit cigarette running industry in the US is just as bad as the drug kingpings ruining Latin America and our inner-cities.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:40 PM (xAtAj)

139 .....but believe that he actively thinks we need to be punished because...history.

----


......THAT'S the part that keeps me up at night.

Posted by: fixerupper at January 08, 2013 04:40 PM (nELVU)

140 The barrel. No, not for you. For being a diligent 'ron you get a steak.

http://tinyurl.com/bb73ulw

Um, I have what she's carring under the pink napkin. Please. And thank you.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 08, 2013 04:40 PM (GFM2b)

141
IOWAHAWK!
"You know who else inherited an economy from Bush? Rick Perry."

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 08, 2013 04:40 PM (1Y+hH)

142 Ghosts - yes
UFOs - yes
Atlantis - maybe
faeries in the garden - no

astral projection - maybe
pyramid power - maybe
Rosecrucianism - yes
psychic abilities - yes
Shadow People - yes
Bigfoot - maybe
conspiracy theories-maybe

As a whole, these "concepts" are interesting, and the world is a more interesting place because of them. Even if they're not true, they're still interesting to contemplate and discuss.

Imagine how horrible our world would be if there were no mysteries and everything was at it seemed- a world filled with mediocre people being pushed around by a government filled with at best incompetent, at worst, evil individuals.

/that being said, I look forward to your Shadow Person story Ace!

Posted by: shibumi at January 08, 2013 04:40 PM (z63Tr)

143 We can legalize drugs once society decides to allow
people to die on there own terms without financing anything. Not
treatment centers, not hospitals, nothin.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 04:40 PM (l86i3)

Users would be funding their own treatment. That's why tax money from sales would go to such a thing...

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:40 PM (xAtAj)

144 The left are petulant children in adult bodies.

In the Immortal words of Spock "V'ger is a child, I suggest you treat it as one"

Posted by: Berserker at January 08, 2013 04:41 PM (FMbng)

145 [129
Gawker published names and locations (2 years old) of registered gun
owners in NYC, calling them "assholes" in the headline.]

I guess it's time to publish all the personal information of the people at Gawker, huh?


Posted by: Warden at January 08, 2013 04:41 PM (HzhBE)

146 Ace you are missing the larger points.

America makes other countries look bad. It has to be destroyed for that. The prosperity will be waved away as it somehow being stolen prosperity (ignoring actual stealing from Russia for example).

Democrats don't care about why America works. They don't run it so they want it destroyed and because they went after the media and education and we didn't fight back we are with Obama.

Fight back. Organize or spend the rest of your life complaining, and if gulags come here it won't be a long life.

Posted by: GardenGnome at January 08, 2013 04:41 PM (74T7W)

147 Alcohol absolutely is physically addictive. So is caffeine, for that
matter


They're nowhere near being on the same plane as drugs like heroin and meth, either in their potency or addiction potential.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 04:41 PM (SY2Kh)

148 Ace are you against banning porn on network TV? Are you against laws against sex in public? Are you against laws for humane slaughter ofstock animals? Are you against prostitution laws?

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 04:41 PM (m2CN7)

149 I guess it's time to publish all the personal information of the people at Gawker, huh?




Posted by: Warden at January 08, 2013 04:41 PM (HzhBE)

Correct answer: What is a Gawker?

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:41 PM (xAtAj)

150 Users would be funding their own treatment. That's why tax money from sales would go to such a thing...
Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:40 PM (xAtAj)

I disagree, tax money should go to the general fund like everyone elses tax money. Does the Tax money collected from Alcohol go to AA?

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 04:43 PM (l86i3)

151 It's like saying our illicit cigarette running industry in the US is just as bad as the drug kingpings ruining Latin America and our inner-cities.

Just as bad? I don't see the connection, other than the fact that we do have a large cigarette smuggling industry going on. The black market for taxed drugs would still be run by drug kingpins.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 08, 2013 04:43 PM (evdj2)

152 The government is not a Father.





And thus ace sums up in six words the entire difference between conservatism and leftist philosophies.


Mothers are Socialists. Fathers are Communists.

Not sure if the gender switch is happening yet.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at January 08, 2013 04:43 PM (kqqGm)

153 faeries in the garden - no
astral projection - maybe
pyramid power - maybe
[i/]

Well, sounds like Mr. Scott, not Mr. Sulu.

Posted by: James Tiberius Kirk at January 08, 2013 04:43 PM (Lxw+T)

154 I'm ready to get in on the ground floor of pyramid power federal subsidies! Onward! To teh Future!! No dead birds!

Posted by: Yip at January 08, 2013 04:43 PM (/jHWN)

155 I suppose my only caveat would be that we continue to ban some things because the argument is that on the whole the benefit seen by some people is outweighed by the total drain on society.

If we think along these lines then we would have to ban divorce which has benefited some people, theaffected spouses, and adversly affected their children and then the society at large.

Posted by: Decaf at January 08, 2013 04:43 PM (TJQ3a)

156 Legalise heroin. Heroin for everyone. Vending machines that dispense smack. Have Harry Hypodermic, Sammy Spoon and Billy the Belt teach kids through the wonder of song how to cook, tie off and shoot up, starting in 3rd grade. There's absolutely nothing to fear.

But if you want to sell your firearm to another citizen in a private transaction? Fuck that. Regulate, record and oversee THAT shit, because someone might be harmed.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 04:44 PM (+DMSZ)

157 I don't think you could come up with a drug that is perhaps more--

"anti-capitalism" than pot--if you tried for a decade.

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 04:44 PM (r2PLg)

158 Reminder of the funniest insult ever of Piers Morgan;

" Just when you'd think it couldn't get any better, you can push a button and the whole car shimmies. It's like a little shiver of excitement, the kind of feeling you would get if someone suddenly gave you permission to set fire to Piers Morgan." - Jeremy Clarkson reviewing the BMW 1M Coupe on Top Gear

BTW, Piers Morgan once mocked George W Bush for injuring himself on a razor scooter, then shortly afterwards broke a rib falling off a razor scooter.




Posted by: kbdabear at January 08, 2013 04:44 PM (wwsoB)

159 Shouldn't that sirloin have "Diablo III" written on it in A-1 sauce?

Posted by: comatus at January 08, 2013 04:44 PM (qaVK+)

160 nothing more than feelings, with maybe a fake statistic from moveon or MediaMatters if you have a post-college graduate on your hands.
___
Went to visit my cousin over the holidays, thinking his Ph.D. girlfriend was at work. No, she was there. (had done a good job of avoiding her due to her extreme political correctness but this time I was caught).
She hails from North Jersey, we were talking about Hurricane Sandy, when out of the blue she proclaimed with absolute certainty that Manhattan would be under water soon, and "that would show all those people who drive gas guzzling cars and keep their lights on at will."

I had to turn my head from her and bite my tongue because my tongue so wanted to ask her why she wasn't concerned about gas guzzling vehicles when my cousin would drive the Philly -Boston trek to bang the shit out of her every weekend when she was completing her dissertation up there.

Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 04:44 PM (jm/9g)

161 OT-

Few people on here give a shit about Carmelo Anthony getting into a confrontation with Kevin Garnett at the Celtics-Knicks game the other night.

The reason for it is pretty good, though.

Apparently Garnett was talking trash during the game and told Melo that his wife, Lala, "tasted like Honey Nut Cheerios". That's some Vic Mackey shit right there.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 04:44 PM (e0xKF)

162 Serious Cat,



So you believe in the incorporeal ones, huh, and reject the corporeal ones (Bigfoot, etc.)?



I guess if I had to choose I'd go with the incorporeal ones too. There is less disproving them, since they're intangible.



I'll tell my shadow people story in a post. I don't know if it's funny. I thought itw was funny.

Posted by: ace at January 08, 2013 04:19 PM (LCRYB)

I dunno, I just find the stories about ghostly phenomenon and psychic abilities to be more believable. Granted, I'm very very gullible.

Posted by: Serious Cat at January 08, 2013 04:45 PM (UypUQ)

163 151
It's like saying our illicit cigarette running industry in the US is
just as bad as the drug kingpings ruining Latin America and our
inner-cities.



Just as bad? I don't see the connection, other than the fact that
we do have a large cigarette smuggling industry going on. The black
market for taxed drugs would still be run by drug kingpins.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 08, 2013 04:43 PM (evdj2)

Kingpins with just as much power as the cigarette runners. It would be tiny compared to the current black market. When was the last time someone was shot over turf in the illicit cigs game?

Using this logic you're saying banning cigarettes would not create a large, violent black market like our alcohol/drug experiments hav.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:45 PM (xAtAj)

164 Billy the Belt teach kids through the wonder of song how to cook, tie off and shoot up, starting in 3rd grade.

But make sure to cut the surgical tubing only with the blunt kid-proof scissors.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:45 PM (Lxw+T)

165 Capone, his vault still empty.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 08, 2013 04:45 PM (oKVrA)

166 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 04:44 PM (+DMSZ)

whack!

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 04:46 PM (m2CN7)

167 I'm with Warden on this one. Time to publish home addresses, names, phone numbers, kids schools, etc, of everyone that works at gawker.

*Every* one of the bastards.

Posted by: GMan at January 08, 2013 04:46 PM (UkbKS)

168 Gun control: The theory that a woman raped and strangled in an alley with her own pantyhose is somehow morally superior to a woman standing over the body of a dead rapist with a smoking pistol and expended brass on the ground.

Posted by: B at January 08, 2013 04:46 PM (VC56G)

169
The only good thing I can say about Peirs Morgan is that he introduced his face to Jeremy Clarkson fist. Who's another American hating douchebag.

Posted by: YIKES! at January 08, 2013 04:46 PM (mETGQ)

170 BTW, Piers Morgan once mocked George W Bush for injuring himself on a razor scooter, then shortly afterwards broke a rib falling off a razor scooter.


I didn't know insects had endoskeletons.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:46 PM (Lxw+T)

171 The government is not a Father non-Gender specific parental unit.

And thus ace sums up in six words the entire difference between conservatism and leftist philosophies.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 08, 2013 04:32 PM (VtjlW)


Fixed, you evil andro-normative oppressors!!1!

Posted by: Social Science Graduate Student at January 08, 2013 04:46 PM (XvHmy)

172 It was just nice to see Piers get his ass ripped off for once.

After watching him dump all over the very mild Larry Pratt., this was truly "edifying".

Posted by: TexasJew at January 08, 2013 04:47 PM (lD8ju)

173 Kingpins with just as much power as the cigarette runners. It would be tiny compared to the current black market. When was the last time someone was shot over turf in the illicit cigs game?

---

Ask the late pro wrestler Dino Bravo about that one.

He pissed off the Canadian mob back in the 90s and ended up turning a wall into a Jackson Pollock painting with his brains.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 04:47 PM (e0xKF)

174 Alcohol is one of the few addictions that you can die through withdrawal.

Posted by: RWC at January 08, 2013 04:47 PM (fWAjv)

175 Please, please let this gun-grabbing be the LiB spark we've been waiting for...

Hasten the fight. Hasten the settlement of the small vs big government question.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at January 08, 2013 04:48 PM (zpqa2)

176 Piers Morgan recently called Jeremy Clarkson's decking of him "a baby slap".

Funny, in that Morgan claimed a few years ago that the "baby slap" left a permanent scar over his left eyebrow

Posted by: kbdabear at January 08, 2013 04:48 PM (wwsoB)

177 Piers Morgan?Never heard of him!

Posted by: charlie gibson at January 08, 2013 04:48 PM (VDovR)

178 Imagine how horrible our world would be if there were no mysteries and everything was at it seemed

The real, physical world is far more interesting than you know. Pursuing unfounded fantasy like UFOs, Bigfoot and psychic powers in any context other than fiction distracts from the more interesting and complex reality.

People go the Alex Jones route because they're too intellectually lazy to learn about the real world, so take an easy shortcut to conspiracy theory / paranormal bullshit.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 04:48 PM (SY2Kh)

179 The black market for taxed drugs would still be run by drug kingpins.

Won't be a black market. If you could get an ounce of weed at a government dispensary for $20.00, why would you pay $40.00 or more on the black market?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 08, 2013 04:48 PM (GFM2b)

180 Ask the late pro wrestler Dino Bravo about that one.



He pissed off the Canadian mob back in the 90s and ended up turning a wall into a Jackson Pollock painting with his brains.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 04:47 PM (e0xKF)

And in 1990 there were 2,200 murders in NYC. Not over cigs.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:48 PM (xAtAj)

181 We can legalize drugs once society decides to allow people to die on there own terms without financing anything. Not treatment centers, not hospitals, nothin.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 04:40 PM (l86i3)


-------------------------------------------------


This X 1000. If you want to do drugs, then do them. You'll die sooner. I'm tired of paying for your drug-induced fuck ups and attitudes.

Posted by: Soona at January 08, 2013 04:49 PM (J/7oO)

182 Funny, in that Morgan claimed a few years ago that the "baby slap" left a permanent scar over his left eyebrow

It's his only attractive feature.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:49 PM (Lxw+T)

183 Jerry Rivers..I mean Geraldo Rivera? Never heard of him!

Posted by: charlie gibson at January 08, 2013 04:49 PM (VDovR)

184 I read every word, ace.
It was worth it.

Let's ban banning.

Posted by: Joe Mama at January 08, 2013 04:49 PM (v9Cj5)

185 Alcohol is one of the few addictions that you can die through withdrawal.

I think I'm going to knock off early and get a beer.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ #NukeIowaCity at January 08, 2013 04:49 PM (ZKzrr)

186 Word has it that the White House, Democrats, and gun control advocates are planning to try to “overwhelm” the National Rifle Association when the battle over guns heats up this month.

==========

And they're going to do it too.

Remember the public reaction to ObamaCare?

Motivated people contacted Congress day & night for weeks to convey that the bill should be stopped.

How did that turn out again?

Posted by: Jay at January 08, 2013 04:49 PM (WSgyE)

187
"It was just nice to see Piers get his ass ripped off for once."

There were two people in the room. One was a calm guy with a British accent and the other was a screaming lunatic.

The lunatic didn't win.

Posted by: jwest at January 08, 2013 04:49 PM (ZDsRL)

188 173 brandon in BR,

that was the Rizzuto clan in all likelihood....

and yeah the hard cig smugglers will kill you.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:50 PM (LRFds)

189 They're nowhere near being on the same plane as drugs like heroin and meth, either in their potency or addiction potential.


-----

That's a different matter, and maybe reasonable, especially with regard to caffeine.

I disagree, though, that alcohol is not as potent of an addiction or as likely to form. I know a number of alcoholics, sober and still using, and it's pretty damn potent. Sit in an AA or Alanon meeting sometime if you don't think that it's a horribly addictive drug.

Then, of course, we also don't know too much about "harder" drugs because right now, the only people who use those are already on the fringes---most people in the US, outside of certain subcultures like Mormons, try alcohol at some point, and most don't get addicted. Meanwhile, most people in the US never try the harder drugs, and those that have aren't likely to talk to freely about it, so we don't really know whether most of those people became addicted. When opium was available in drug stores, and cocaine was in coca-cola, it appears that most of the people who used those did not become addicted, or at least not to the extent that would be an absolute catastrophe. So, it's interesting.

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 08, 2013 04:50 PM (b+8h9)

190 [167
I'm with Warden on this one. Time to publish home addresses, names,
phone numbers, kids schools, etc, of everyone that works at gawker.]

Let's start with the asshole editor, John Cook. I'm willing to put in some research time.

Posted by: Warden at January 08, 2013 04:50 PM (HzhBE)

191 People go the Alex Jones route because they're too intellectually lazy to learn about the real world, so take an easy shortcut to conspiracy theory / paranormal bullshit.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 04:48 PM (SY2Kh)

I like your conspirator theorist are lazy and uneducated. Hmm. I'll have to agree with that. That's why professionals are always deferred to for real answers.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 04:51 PM (l86i3)

192 175 Please, please let this gun-grabbing be the LiB spark we've been waiting for...

Hasten the fight. Hasten the settlement of the small vs big government question.
Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at January 08, 2013 04:48 PM (zpqa2)

__________________________

Probably not going to happen.

The ObamaCare take over should have done it.

Or--the 800 billion dollar stimulus that went up in smoke.

The demographic for gun rights is mostly in the Republican pool.

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 04:51 PM (r2PLg)

193 Is the "British Geraldo" anything like a "Mexican wheelbarrow"?

Posted by: andycanuck at January 08, 2013 04:51 PM (ORGYc)

194 179 rickb,

because the black market will sell it to you for 15....


Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:51 PM (LRFds)

195 Is believing that believing in global warming is a conspiracy theory make be a believer in conspiracy theories?

Is believing that believing in the "Religion of Peace" is a conspiracy theory make me a believer in conspiracy theories?

Posted by: Truman at Wal-Mart now at January 08, 2013 04:52 PM (I2LwF)

196 :::164 Billy the Belt teach kids through the wonder of song how to cook, tie off and shoot up, starting in 3rd grade.

But make sure to cut the surgical tubing only with the blunt kid-proof scissors.
Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:45 PM (Lxw+T)::::


Billy the Belt: "Hi, little Johnny! Today we're going to make an opium pipe with construction paper, elbow macaroni, and 2 grams of China White! "

Johnny: "Keen! I'm chasing the dragon!"

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 04:52 PM (+DMSZ)

197 Is the "British Geraldo" anything like a "Mexican wheelbarrow"?

More like a "dirty Sanchez."

Posted by: George Orwell what knows being American means free rubbers and gun control at January 08, 2013 04:52 PM (Lxw+T)

198 Like"that other guy"we need to approach this sanely:

Periodically put someone on his show who can verbally slap him around, showing how stupid he is, but

NEVER watch his show, even when "our guy" is on.

Morgan lives and dies by "as long as you spell my name right," much like "that other guy."

Don't spell his name right. Don't even mention it.

Posted by: RobM1981 at January 08, 2013 04:52 PM (4WC+3)

199 And to be frank, I just said the tax money stuff to make it more politically palatable.

I'd just be happy to stop creating gangbangers and sending them to jail on our dimes.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:53 PM (xAtAj)

200 So, how exactly is Obama going to destroy thr Republican Party in 2014 by raising taxes and pushing gun control?

Posted by: george orwell's ghey ghost at January 08, 2013 04:53 PM (VDovR)

201 @177 I don't recall hearing of Piers Morgan until recently. My life went along as before, but then there was a piersmorgan somewhere on the east coast.
Now, I understand that he is engaging in a propaganda effort for L'il Barry.
Which, if things go bad in our country, could go badly for the piersmorgan.
What does he hope to gain? Ratings?
Ratings don't matter any more, acc. to Limbaugh's take on the sale price of Algore's unwatched network: high price/no audience. What's the game? Fame?
pfft

Posted by: Thorvald at January 08, 2013 04:53 PM (1V6Pv)

202 So when the heroin addict can't afford to buy his government supplied heroin anymore because he is too fucked up to earn his own money, where is he going to get either the money or the heroin? My tax money that's where.

Bad enough I will eventually be paying for the potheads.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 04:53 PM (m2CN7)

203 because the black market will sell it to you for 15.

Then the gov sells it for $5.00. Even the black market can't compete with someone who doesn't have to turn a profit.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 08, 2013 04:54 PM (GFM2b)

204 Johnny: "Keen! I'm chasing the dragon!"

---

How about a copy of Rehab Hero? It's like Heroin Hero but this time the dragon chases you!

Posted by: Gamestop clerk at January 08, 2013 04:54 PM (e0xKF)

205 @67 I would also suggest Karl Popper,

Get the fuck out. A commie, and George Soros is his numma one Boy.
Open society my ass. Liberaltarians may swallow that shit. Veddy Budittish.

Posted by: comatus at January 08, 2013 04:54 PM (qaVK+)

206 199 HoboJerky,

HJ I doubt the gangbangers become model citizens bud...they would simply find a new niche.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:54 PM (LRFds)

207 When opium was available in drug stores, and cocaine was in coca-cola, it appears that most of the people who used those did not become addicted, or at least not to the extent that would be an absolute catastrophe. So, it's interesting.

____________________________

My dad grew up during the era-of

Cocaine in Coke.

He said that he and his friends would get so desperate that they stripped a three mile radius of Pittsburgh for metal to cash in to get their fix.

They started puling up railroad track ties.

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 04:54 PM (r2PLg)

208 I don't think you could come up with a drug that is perhaps more--



"anti-capitalism" than pot--if you tried for a decade.

Hahahaha!
I made a metric buttload of money on pot back in the day.

Posted by: The Bullshit Flag at January 08, 2013 04:55 PM (I7O5y)

209 "tangential bits of paranoia about psychiatrists and their Suicide Pills"

Since when is skepticism about psychiatry, the pill-peddling pseudoscience, taboo? Was Aldous Huxley just blowing smoke?

Posted by: MadisonConservative at January 08, 2013 04:55 PM (sb+ta)

210 Pyramid power and lace wigs

Posted by: Yip at January 08, 2013 04:56 PM (/jHWN)

211
HJ I doubt the gangbangers become model citizens bud...they would simply find a new niche.


Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:54 PM (LRFds)

We are creating them now. I'm not saying release them. I'm saying stop making them. In 20 years the gangbanger pipeline will have slowed to a drip.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:56 PM (xAtAj)

212 Piers Morgan, like all liberals, are wanks and intellectually stumped.

In a world where men have invented Jet Propulsion, Atomic Energy, Computers, The Internet, etc etc. These self-centered twats think they are going to change the world by....






Tweeting.


They can all go STFD and STFU.

Posted by: cajun carrot, Thunder Dome or Bust! at January 08, 2013 04:56 PM (UZQM8)

213 RE: Drug Legalization

A conservative argument against is that people may freely choose to use them but once they have become addicted they are a slave to the substance. If you care about individual freedom, you will not want a legal framework that is indifferent to drug use. At least with alcohol most people will use it without getting intoxicated. I drink but have never had too much to suffer a hangover the next day. If we had a society where the large majority had the rate of alcoholism as Native Americans, you could make a conservative case for prohibiting booze too.

Posted by: Serious Cat at January 08, 2013 04:56 PM (UypUQ)

214 Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 04:51 PM (r2PLg)
___
I don't know about that. Of the many gun enthusiasts in my personal and professional network, few of them voted at all. No matter how I tried to convince the nonvoters, they didn't care about elections and thought GOP and donks equally corrupt. These guys are serious gun owners, crossbow hunters, for all I know they've got armaments left over from Vietnam stashed away somewhere. And they don't vote. How many of the millions who didn't show up on November 6 are dedicated gun owners?

Who has the ability to effectively disarm them?

Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 04:57 PM (jm/9g)

215
btw, one of my answers to morgan's only 35 murders in UK would be 'so what, we don't have a fuckin king and queen either'.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 08, 2013 04:57 PM (p/cQy)

216 A full half of people in jail right now are there for drugs.

Half. YOU ARE subsidizing their livelihoods.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:58 PM (xAtAj)

217 We give Morgan enough rope to hang himself by pretending he is a journalist.

Posted by: Dave S. at January 08, 2013 04:58 PM (8Jp6C)

218 From Twitter:
James O'Keefe ‏@JamesOKeefeIII
Finished filming. Some journalists are going to be angry when they see these videos.

Journalists with bodyguards? or
Journalists with transgendered midget hookers?

Posted by: USA at January 08, 2013 04:58 PM (RIg+t)

219 Piers and I had such fun visiting kids in the hospital.

Posted by: Jimmy Saville at January 08, 2013 04:58 PM (ygAxO)

220 It's cult-like in its adherence to the point where they don't give any value to contrary opinions or people who are by nature their opponents.


We are not opponents. We are the enemy. We are subhuman. We are not rational. We have no intellectual support for our beliefs. We are creatures who act out of only hate, bigotry and fear. We are unworthy of being afforded even a modicum of decency and respect.

I know how the story ends when Group A views Group B in that manner.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 08, 2013 04:58 PM (VtjlW)

221 You also have to remember that--

the Coke in Cocaine Days--coincided with The Depression.

So--probably harder to measure the effects.

If I was a lazy thinker like Kevin Drum at Mother Jones-- the conclusion would be--

Cocaine in Coke Caused The Depression!

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 04:59 PM (r2PLg)

222 Organized Crime: Filling needs of consumers of banned goods and services since Prohibition.


Posted by: Al Capone's Vault at January 08, 2013 04:59 PM (wwsoB)

223 By the way, the intellectual cowards at Gawker changed their tweet and removed the word "assholes"

Posted by: Jay at January 08, 2013 04:59 PM (WSgyE)

224 We are creating them now.

Sorta like how fighting terrorists create them?

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 04:59 PM (GBXon)

225 211 HoboJerky,

Sorry disagree.

If anything the problem gets worse when you force them into a new market.

Gangs and black markets are a necessary byproduct of freedom.

The Mafia understood that Prohibition was a pump and dump and started readying smack in the late '30s as a new cash crop.

There's organized crime and gang thuggery even in porn.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 04:59 PM (LRFds)

226 Motivated people contacted Congress day night for weeks to convey that the bill should be stopped. How did that turn out again?
Posted by: Jay at January 08, 2013 04:49 PM (WSgyE)


-----------------------------------------------


There's a difference. When Ocare was passed, the dems had the preezyship, the senate, AND the house. I also think gun control, as unbelievable as it may sound, hits a much deeper nerve in this society than Ocare did.

Posted by: Soona at January 08, 2013 04:59 PM (J/7oO)

227 So, other than that, did you like the play, Mr. O'Spades?

Posted by: jakeman at January 08, 2013 04:59 PM (96M6e)

228 A full half of people in jail right now are there for drugs.

Half. YOU ARE subsidizing their livelihoods.
Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 04:58 PM (xAtAj)


Agreed, It's more than subsidizing, it's prolly like 50-60K a year to house prisoners.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (l86i3)

229 Karl Popper repays study.
Let's try Induction tomorrow.

Posted by: Thorvald at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (1V6Pv)

230 177
Piers Morgan?Never heard of him!

Posted by: charlie gibson at January 08, 2013 04:48 PM

Neither have we!

Posted by: Majority of Cable Subscribers at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (wwsoB)

231 There's organized crime and gang thuggery even in porn.

---

I'm surprised there's still enough money left in porn for it to be worthwhile.

Everyone's giving it away for free online these days.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (e0xKF)

232 Jay:

Big difference between obamacare and now. We hold the house. Dems barely pushed obamacare through when they had solid majorities in house and senate.

Posted by: Prescient11 at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (tVTLU)

233 What Alexthechick said.... eleventy! No respect. We're the enemy. Our values are stupid and our opinions open for ridicule.

Posted by: Yip at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (/jHWN)

234 224 Brother Cavil,

Heh I let that one go....

a ganger will be a protection racket guy if there is no tangible market....there is ALWAYS organized crime.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (LRFds)

235 A full half of people in jail right now are there for drugs.

A very small percentage of them are there for using or possessing small amounts for their own use.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (SY2Kh)

236 224
We are creating them now.



Sorta like how fighting terrorists create them?

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 04:59 PM (GBXon)

And there's the RINO horn.
It's like saying Prohibition didn't create Capone.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (xAtAj)

237 (One may ask if it's religion, but then, Latin America is very religious and constantly repeats the cycle of constitution-leftist revolution-authoritarian counter-revolution.)

Protestantism, even in its most watered-down form, is singular and different from Cqholocism. Catholicism, and most every other world religion, is collectivist. Protestantism is not.

This is a huge difference in the fate of a people and culture.

Posted by: Truman at Wal-Mart now at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (DOysX)

238 "Who has the ability to effectively disarm them?"

It looks to me like they've effectively disarmed themselves, by pretending there was no difference between a Democrat and a GOP Presidency or Senate.

Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at January 08, 2013 05:01 PM (BIJKO)

239 they didn't care about elections and thought GOP and donks equally corrupt.

And even more sadly, they're largely being proven right...

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 05:01 PM (GBXon)

240 Piers Morgan: Nancy Grace without Boobs

Posted by: kbdabear at January 08, 2013 05:01 PM (wwsoB)

241 there is ALWAYS organized crime.

---

Don't kid yourself... it's not that organized.

Posted by: Cosmo at January 08, 2013 05:01 PM (e0xKF)

242 @228 Well, if you turn them loose, and we get shoot-on-sight, the bodies will pile up so fast in the deep blue cities that soon...
Nope, no down-side.

Posted by: Thorvald at January 08, 2013 05:01 PM (1V6Pv)

243 231 Brandon in BR,

The old smut shops have a thug element....

we morons tend to overestimate the % of people who are as web happy as we are.

I lived around the corner from a shop in Columbia SC....

"odd"

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:01 PM (LRFds)

244
yep ATC as AB said "they don't even think of you as human".

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 08, 2013 05:01 PM (p/cQy)

245 From Twitter:
James O'Keefe ‏@JamesOKeefeIII
Finished filming. Some journalists are going to be angry when they see these videos.

Journalists with bodyguards? or
Journalists with transgendered midget hookers?

I'll take Journalists with transgendered midget hookers for $500.00 Alex.

Posted by: rickb223 at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (GFM2b)

246 235
A full half of people in jail right now are there for drugs.

A very small percentage of them are there for using or possessing small amounts for their own use.


Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (SY2Kh)

We create the environment for gangbangers to be created and thrive.

End the drug war, and the pipeline would dry up.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (xAtAj)

247 Just for the record. I belive in ghosts. I do not believe in UFOs, Atlantis, faeries in the garden, astral projection, pyramid power, Rosecrucianism, psychic abilities, Shadow People, and/or Bigfoot.) The reason for this is I have seen a ghost and not seen UFOs, Atlantis, faeries in the garden, astral projection, pyramid power, Rosecrucianism, psychic abilities, Shadow People, and/or Bigfoot.).

Posted by: Hamilton Burger at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (J+6te)

248 Truman.... after Wal Mart, you need to head over to the airport. Have a nice trip! heh

Posted by: Yip at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (/jHWN)

249 Yes, that's why Prussia was a model democracy.

Posted by: andycanuck at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (ORGYc)

250
My two cents.....


Not sure where I m heading with this..... other than to illustrate varying degrees of belief.

I do believe in an "after" when we die. Our conciousness/soul/spirit/energy survives after our death.

Give the mathematic number of earthlike planets in the billions on billions of galaxies in the observable universe.... I really dont think we are alone.




Having said that..... when somebody claims to have seen a ghost or ridden in a UFO...... my skeptometer usually pegs red.

Posted by: fixerupper at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (nELVU)

251 By the way, the intellectual cowards at Gawker changed their tweet and removed the word "assholes"
Posted by: Jay at January 08, 2013 04:59 PM (WSgyE)


One of my dreams of what to do when I hit $300+ million in the Powerball is to buy Gawker and turn it into a Moron approved gossip site.

Let's just say that Carolla's girls on trampolines would have nothing on Gawker's core competencies.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (VtjlW)

252 I don't know about that. Of the many gun enthusiasts in my personal and professional network, few of them voted at all. No matter how I tried to convince the nonvoters, they didn't care about elections and thought GOP and donks equally corrupt. These guys are serious gun owners, crossbow hunters, for all I know they've got armaments left over from Vietnam stashed away somewhere. And they don't vote. How many of the millions who didn't show up on November 6 are dedicated gun owners?

Who has the ability to effectively disarm them?
Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 04:57 PM (jm/9g)

___________________________

Crap.

I hate to hear that.

So---those were the people that didn't show up?

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (r2PLg)

253 You also have to remember that--


the Coke in Cocaine Days--coincided with The Depression.


Coca-Cola stopped putting cocaine in their formula in 1903.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ #NukeIowaCity at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (ZKzrr)

254 A very small percentage of them are there for using or possessing small amounts for their own use.


-----

So? They were there because they sold it, or were planning to sell it, to people who chose to buy it. It's not like they were charged with "possession with intent to force-feed".

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (b+8h9)

255 And there's the RINO horn.
It's like saying Prohibition didn't create Capone.


Er, the mobs predated Prohibition, they just capitalized on it. Capone would have been Capone regardless, though perhaps not on the same scale.

Let's put it another way: Is it making them, or just making them more obvious?

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 05:03 PM (GBXon)

256 220 Alex the Chick,

Yup...I've seen this movie before.

Wait until Barry introduces the US to "Kulak"

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:03 PM (LRFds)

257 I believe in the power of utter bullshit and skittle-shitting Unicorns... and you guys know why.... 4 years and counting

Posted by: Yip at January 08, 2013 05:03 PM (/jHWN)

258 I'm a little surprised how many Drug War boosters we have here.

It's an issue that helps shred our privacy, militarizes our police, expands the federal leviathan, creates war zones in our cities, etc etc.

All that for squat. Drug use rates are the same as before.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:03 PM (xAtAj)

259 Prescient11,

I am under no delusion the Obama Administration will obey the law anyway.

I fully expect an Executive Order instructing the ATF to track gun sales.

Posted by: Jay at January 08, 2013 05:04 PM (WSgyE)

260 The problem with the Chesterton Wall analogy, as far a Sergent and the other Leftist warriors are concerned, is not their "simple-minded understanding", it's that they've come to the conclusion that there is nothing left for them to say to those who oppose their worldview. In other words, they've written us off as enemies to be disarmed and destroyed.

The government's money stream is slowing to a trickle; the unions, both private and public sector, are being defanged at the state level. 2014 looks like another Tea Party wave. Federal tax hikes can't be papered over with the electorate and inflation will hit the afterburner. Gas prices are going up, again. The last toss of the iron dice.

Posted by: mrp at January 08, 2013 05:04 PM (HjPtV)

261 I know how the story ends when Group A views Group B in that manner.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 08, 2013 04:58 PM (VtjlW)

I hope the story ends soon.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at January 08, 2013 05:04 PM (zpqa2)

262 238 "Who has the ability to effectively disarm them?"

It looks to me like they've effectively disarmed themselves, by pretending there was no difference between a Democrat and a GOP Presidency or Senate.
Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at January 08, 2013 05:01 PM (BIJKO)

______________________

Le Fin.

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 05:04 PM (r2PLg)

263 Whatever the drug answer is we should pick a side and stick too it. Drugs are not difficult to find so the prohabition on them has sent them underground, spiked the prices and turned it into a criminal enterprise.

If your serious about stopping it, you make the punishment of the crime so heinous that no one even considers it. But pick one, what we do now is a complete fricking joke.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 05:04 PM (l86i3)

264 I don't know much about Alex Jones; what I've seen I don't care for.

But I've got to say this--he yelled over the Brit liberal, made him smell the glove, and owned the airtime.

They do that to our side all the time.

Nice to see an egg-sucker talked over for once.

Posted by: General Zod at January 08, 2013 05:04 PM (2+bRt)

265 One of my dreams of what to do when I hit $300+ million in the Powerball is to buy Gawker and turn it into a Moron approved gossip site.

---

Why buy it? Go all O'Keefe on them and harass the living shit out of them until they give into your demands.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 05:04 PM (e0xKF)

266 An response I never see among the pro-legalization crowd is an explanation how the United States would turn out differently than did China.



Drugs brought China to it's knees, overthrew several thousand years of Imperial rule, allowed the much smaller nation of Japan to invade and conquer it, and ended up creating so much misery and disaster that the people accepted a Dictator to put an end to it.


Legalized Drugs would run away like a Black Plague epidemic, leaving death, destruction and misery in it's wake. As bad as is the War on Drugs, the alternative would be far worse.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 08, 2013 05:05 PM (bb5+k)

267 You also have to remember that--

the Coke in Cocaine Days--coincided with The Depression.

So--probably harder to measure the effects.
Posted by: tasker


Huh? The 1891 depression?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 08, 2013 05:05 PM (djdc7)

268 Yup...I've seen this movie before.

Wait until Barry introduces the US to "Kulak"
Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:03 PM (LRFds)



I have a feeling we'll be seeing the Bollywood version sooner rather than later.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 08, 2013 05:05 PM (VtjlW)

269
@ 247
Thanks for believing in me! Everybody has to believe in something, I believe I'll have another cocktail before dinner.

Posted by: george orwell's ghey ghost at January 08, 2013 05:05 PM (VDovR)

270 Er, the mobs predated Prohibition, they just
capitalized on it. Capone would have been Capone regardless, though
perhaps not on the same scale.



Let's put it another way: Is it making them, or just making them more obvious?

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 05:03 PM (GBXon)

Little from column A, a little from column B. Black kids in the inner-city would be much less inclined to join gangs if it wasn't "easy" money.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:05 PM (xAtAj)

271 It's not a conspiracy if They are, in fact, conspiring to damage / destroy you


you think the Left wants us to live our lives and keep our stuff? Think they aren't planning our Demise?


you don't need to be a Scientology whack job to know which way the Wind is blowing, man


Posted by: Frank in Frankfurt at January 08, 2013 05:05 PM (Dll6b)

272 re: "People generally have a built-in bias in favor of the prohibition of things they themselves don't like."

And an at least equally strong bias toward not liking exactly what they're told not to like. And a stronger bias than any other against knowing how they came to dislike what they dislike, to "know" what they "know," to think they are who they think they are--and that Those People need a good seeing-to.

A system like the one the Constitution describes accounts, to a degree, for how blindly and/or maliciously we decide. But really, that's beyond accounting for. Political liberty is an unbearable imposition on people, a restraint they can't endure. It can't last, and so it doesn't. And didn't.

And it won't, ever, anywhere.

It's like an amazingly elaborate and delicate ice sculpture. In Hell.

Posted by: oblig. at January 08, 2013 05:05 PM (cePv8)

273 Piers Morgan: Fired from the Daily Mirror for faking photos of "atrocities" by British soldiers in Iraq

Piers Morgan: Under investigation in the UK phone hacking scandal while editor of the Daily Mirror

This is the man the leftists want carrying their water? One of the most hated persons in his native country?

Posted by: kbdabear at January 08, 2013 05:05 PM (wwsoB)

274 258 HoboJerky,

HJ I am not a fan of the 'drug war" I do know the "legalization" of it is not a panacea of ANY kind....

I said legalize it all and let Darwin sort it the fuck out.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:06 PM (LRFds)

275 And there's the RINO horn.It's like saying Prohibition didn't create Capone.
Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:00 PM (xAtAj)

Prohibition didn't create Capone. He was into rackets, numbers and prostitution and murder way before Prohibition.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:06 PM (m2CN7)

276 253 You also have to remember that--


the Coke in Cocaine Days--coincided with The Depression.

Coca-Cola stopped putting cocaine in their formula in 1903.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ #NukeIowaCity at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (ZKzrr)

____________________________


Damn--you mean my Dad was hooked on just the sugar?

No way.

Like they totally got rid of it by 1903?

Well there goes that.

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 05:06 PM (r2PLg)

277 223 By the way, the intellectual cowards at Gawker changed their tweet and removed the word "assholes"
Posted by: Jay at January 08, 2013 04:59 PM (WSgyE)


Not on my compubox they didn't. Still on his twitter feed and a strikeout isn't really removing it.

Posted by: RWC at January 08, 2013 05:06 PM (fWAjv)

278 I'm headed over to Gawker's offices tomorrow... I think I might eat a big cheesy bacon burger and cheese fries the night before.... you know... just so I've got a round in the chamber... don't stand too close... you never know when this thing might go off..

Posted by: Al Roker at January 08, 2013 05:06 PM (/jHWN)

279 Black kids in the inner-city would be much less inclined to join gangs if it wasn't "easy" money.

---

There will still be "easy" money out there if the War On Drugs goes away. It'll just move into a different form.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 05:06 PM (e0xKF)

280 My Mistake.

Gawker put up a 2nd tweet on the gun owner list.

They tweeted it twice. The original "assholes" Tweet remains.

Cunts

Posted by: Jay at January 08, 2013 05:07 PM (WSgyE)

281 Jay:

Problem with that is that it violates federal law prohibiting federal government agencies from doing that anyway.

ATF already tracks/keeps records of "multiple gun" purchases in violation of federal law.

I doubt he goes the EO route, but if he does then the House can defund whatever agency implements the laws.

We have weapons, it's time to fight.

Posted by: Prescient11 at January 08, 2013 05:07 PM (tVTLU)

282 no coke in coke after 1892; maybe not any coke in coke, ever


only The Shadow and the Chiefs of Coke know for sure...

Posted by: Frank in Frankfurt at January 08, 2013 05:07 PM (Dll6b)

283 Prohibition didn't create Capone. He was into rackets, numbers and prostitution and murder way before Prohibition.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:06 PM (m2CN7)

Again, another gotcha. Are you saying booze wasn't a factor in the violence during Prohibition?

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:07 PM (xAtAj)

284 Sorry for not just taking you at your word, HoboJerky, but your stat is full of shit.

According to bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov "Of the nearly 1.4 million sentenced state prisoners, an estimated 725,000 (53%) were sentence for violent offenses in 2010...

Eighteen percent (249,500) of state prisoners were serving sentences for property offenses, and 17% (237,000) were serving sentences for drug crimes."

Not even fucking close. Tell me again how the prisons are full of innocent stoners that are doing time for smoking a joint.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:08 PM (+DMSZ)

285 All that for squat. Drug use rates are the same as before.

Query: What else has been taking place during that time, that might potentially have impacted the 'facts on the ground'? Such as, I don't know, changes in culture?

Think what you may of the execution--and there have been some monumental flaws and seriously bad ideas throughout--there's a case to be made for societies cleaning up their messes. Though in this case it may have been overtreating a symptom while ignoring the true cancer...

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 05:08 PM (GBXon)

286 This is mildly interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/United_States_v._Forty_Barrels_and_Twenty_Kegs_of_Coca-Cola

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ #NukeIowaCity at January 08, 2013 05:08 PM (ZKzrr)

287 Journalists with bodyguards? or
Journalists with transgendered midget hookers?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (GFM2b)


Wouldn't the transgendered midget hookers by the ones who are embarassed?

Posted by: Transgendered Midget Hooker Defense Network at January 08, 2013 05:08 PM (XvHmy)

288 The only flaw on your argument, Ace, is the example of homosexuality. Chesterton's wall example shows why we should t rush in to overturn the traditional notion of marriage. There is obviously a good reason why it exists. Chesterton would wisely counsul against changing the definition of marriage and against removing private gun ownership. He bought a gun for himself when he got married to protect his new bride. Just a thought.

Posted by: Darii at January 08, 2013 05:08 PM (qe/bW)

289
All that for squat. Drug use rates are the same as before.


Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:03 PM (xAtAj)

Yes they are, and you can thank the War on Drugs for keeping them flat. Normal growth of drug usage is logistical (A variation of exponential growth) When China legalized Opium sale and usage, growth started slowly, but within 70 years half the population of Manchuria was addicted to opium.

The stuff spreads exactly like an infectious disease. (if you let it.)

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 08, 2013 05:08 PM (bb5+k)

290
There will still be "easy" money out there if the War On Drugs goes away. It'll just move into a different form.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 05:06 PM (e0xKF)

You think new markets would open up to fill it's spot? Kids on every street corner in bad neighborhoods selling ___?

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:08 PM (xAtAj)

291 Heather

there is this from the wiki;

After 1904, instead of using fresh leaves, Coca-Cola started using "spent" leaves – the leftovers of the cocaine-extraction process with trace levels of cocaine.[40] Coca-Cola now uses a cocaine-free coca leaf extract prepared at a Stepan Company plant in Maywood, New Jersey.


So--they might of done all that for just the trace of cocaine from the spent leaves.

Although don't know for how long that was the process.

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 05:08 PM (r2PLg)

292 LibRuleLogic: All cultures are of equal worth, to be understood and
celebrated, except that of Americans who don't live in urban areas...

As for Giffords... she was shot by a Lefty for being too moderate. I guess she learned her lesson?

Posted by: DANEgerus at January 08, 2013 05:09 PM (e3/KR)

293 Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 05:04 PM (l86i3)

I agree. I've always advocated for the death penalty for dealers. They deal death they get death.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:09 PM (m2CN7)

294 Oh, shit! Not again.

Posted by: al roker's underwear at January 08, 2013 05:09 PM (ORGYc)

295 Damn--you mean my Dad was hooked on just the sugar?


-----

Yep. Well, that and caffeine. I can't say I'm exactly shocked, though, that a young boy in a time of food scarcity was pretty excited about sugar.

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 08, 2013 05:09 PM (b+8h9)

296 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 08, 2013 05:08 PM (bb5+k)

I've already responded previously to the laughably wrong insinuation that drug use rates are exponential, or would be exponential here.

You think 50% of Americans would be on heroin if it were legal?

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:09 PM (xAtAj)

297 283 HoboJerky,

are you saying there was no mob violence post prohibition?

If anything the violence was bad in part because too many rookies tried breaking into the game because it was obvious the big dry was gonna go down and it was a HUGE cash grab.

Harry Truman and JFK both got power through booze money.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:10 PM (LRFds)

298 From the same Bureau of Justice Statistics report:

"Violent offenders increased in state prison over the past decade, while drug offenders decreased."

My condolences to Reason magazine.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:10 PM (+DMSZ)

299 290
There will still be "easy" money out there if the War On Drugs goes away. It'll just move into a different form.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 05:06 PM (e0xKF)

You think new markets would open up to fill it's spot? Kids on every street corner in bad neighborhoods selling ___?

---

Considering who they're looking up to? The kids will be on every street corner selling pussy or fighting each other for the "rights" to a particular stable of women.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 05:10 PM (e0xKF)

300 What's all this about Chestersons Wall and homosexuals? I think I saw a Chestersons wall in Oak Lawn in Dallas that had holes in it... just sayin'

Posted by: Yip at January 08, 2013 05:10 PM (/jHWN)

301 yeah, Wiki is always accurate and complete


believe everything you read there--yes you can!

Posted by: Frank in Frankfurt at January 08, 2013 05:10 PM (Dll6b)

302 Prescient11,

From Sunday's Washington Post:

In addition to potential legislative proposals, Biden’s group has expanded its focus to include measures that would not need congressional approval and could be quickly implemented by executive action, according to interest-group leaders who have discussed options with Biden and key Cabinet secretaries. Possibilities include changes to federal mental-health programs and modernization of gun-tracking efforts by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

“Simply coming up with one or two aspects of it really falls short of the magnitude of the gun issue in the country,” said Chuck Wexler, executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum.

Wexler was among a dozen law enforcement leaders who met with Biden and other administration leaders in the aftermath of the Dec. 14 massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown. The Dec. 20 summit, which stretched an hour beyond an allotted one hour, included Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., Education Secretary Arne Duncan, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius.

Biden “wanted to talk to us about the assault-weapons ban, automatic weapons, high-capacity magazines,” said Hennepin County (Minn.) Sheriff Richard Stanek, president of the Major County Sheriffs’ Association.

The vice president said the White House group would consider a variety of proposals — from requiring background checks for all gun buyers to creating a new database that would allow the ATF to track all gun sales, according to participants.

===============================

I am not optimistic.

Posted by: Jay at January 08, 2013 05:11 PM (WSgyE)

303
Personally, I see no value in bestiality

Does that mean you're volunteering to bang Kathy Griffin yourself then?

Posted by: Entropy at January 08, 2013 05:11 PM (TULs6)

304 one goat...

Posted by: Yip at January 08, 2013 05:11 PM (/jHWN)

305 Funny how some people try to portray Alex Jones as anything but a crazy nutjob, he makes Coast to Coast sound like sane commentary, then again the History Channel also makes Coast to Coast sound like sane commentary.

Posted by: Ed Wood VS Godzilla at January 08, 2013 05:12 PM (obHYs)

306 I am not optimistic.

---

"Million Magazine March" on DC?

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 05:12 PM (e0xKF)

307 299 Brandon in BR,

Yup...

and thanks to LIBERALS IN CHARGE we have a hypersexualized youth that seldom hears the word "no"

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:12 PM (LRFds)

308 So---those were the people that didn't show up?
Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 05:02 PM (r2PLg)
___
They only represent a portion of the no-shows. These are not the TruCons who hate RINO types. They are totally apolitical. They want themselves and their guns left alone.
It looks to me like they've effectively disarmed themselves, ...Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at January 08, 2013 05:01 PM (BIJKO)
---
They still are in possession of their weapons. I guess I used the wrongqualifier, I shouldn't have said "effectively". Who will actually disarm them?

Are jackboots going to show up at their homes and confiscate their weapons?

I don't think we're there yet.

Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 05:12 PM (jm/9g)

309 The ~$500B illegal drug market gets replaced by ~$500B in illegal prostitution?

What?

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:13 PM (xAtAj)

310 "someone who believes in ghosts will almost certainly also believe in two or more of the following: UFOs, Atlantis, faeries in the garden, astral projection, pyramid power, Rosecrucianism, psychic abilities, Shadow People, and/or Bigfoot.)"

If there's a steady paycheck involved, I'll believe anything you want.

Posted by: Winston Zeddemore at January 08, 2013 05:13 PM (obHYs)

311 Someone needs to start the shit. I won't lead an angry mob, but I'm happy to join one.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 08, 2013 05:13 PM (evdj2)

312 Legalized Drugs would run away like a Black Plague epidemic, leaving death, destruction and misery in it's wake. As bad as is the War on Drugs, the alternative would be far worse.
Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 08, 2013 05:05 PM (bb5+k)


-----------------------------------------------------


I'm just thinking that it's just so much easier for a government/tyranny to dictate to a drugged populace.

Posted by: Soona at January 08, 2013 05:13 PM (J/7oO)

313 Yes, but in his interview with Piers Morgan, did Alex Jones talk about what is really important? I am, of course, referring to the central message of Jones' film,'Endgame' (starring Dr. Ron Paul),Jones' searingexpose of spider-goat DNA hybridization experiments being conducted in secret Illuminati laboratories, in collusion with, ahem, the (Jewish) Rothschild banking family and the dreaded Bildersburgers, whose overarching goal is to reduce the mass of humanity to slavery, held in thrall by near-immortal, genetically engineered ruling caste comprised, presumably, of Jewish bankers.

Here's a conspiracy for you: the not-so-secret socialists running the federal government, with media collusion, are attempting to pushthose who oppose themto darkness of the fringe by associating gun owners (and religious believers and patriots and free enterprise capitalists) with oddball characters like Alex Jones.

Posted by: troyriser at January 08, 2013 05:13 PM (vtiE6)

314 Piers doesn't think of himself as a Thinker. Piers knows full well he's a wanker


always was a total wanker; always totally aware of his wanker-ness



Posted by: Frank in Frankfurt at January 08, 2013 05:13 PM (Dll6b)

315 Again, another gotcha. Are you saying booze wasn't a factor in the violence during Prohibition?
Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:07 PM (xAtAj

Turf wars were the proximate producing causeof the violence whether they would be fighting over controlling gambling or prostitution or drugs or alcohol.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:13 PM (m2CN7)

316 Anyhoo, enough OT.

Back to topic:

Alex Jones is only good in the sense of he makes humorous clips of him simply melting down in paranoid fever.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:13 PM (xAtAj)

317 I purchased my guns legally. I had to pass a background check and be fingerprinted for my CC permit. I will not comply with further regulations like registering my firearms, or paying a tax on my AR.

Posted by: Molon Labe at January 08, 2013 05:14 PM (ygAxO)

318 They tweeted it twice. The original "assholes" Tweet remains.

Cunts
Posted by: Jay at January 08, 2013 05:07 PM (WSgyE)

#Cunts4Bieber

Posted by: RWC at January 08, 2013 05:14 PM (fWAjv)

319 @308 (really nice number, btw, one of my faves)...

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ne26jy

Posted by: Thorvald at January 08, 2013 05:14 PM (1V6Pv)

320 309 The ~$500B illegal drug market gets replaced by ~$500B in illegal prostitution?

What?

---

It can be gambling, prostitution, protection rackets, etc.

There will still be an outlet that will be used to make money for gangs even if drugs are no longer it.

Prostutition / pimping is just an easy example because pimps are already deeply ingrained into the thug lifestyle.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 05:14 PM (e0xKF)

321 Hey, bro, wanna buy some cheese, man? Not that government crap neither. Just the good stuff... brie de meaux, Camembert, even da blue stuff, baby, Bavaria blu. And fuck dat Pasteur crap, man. Dis is da real stuff.

Posted by: kid on a bad street corner at January 08, 2013 05:15 PM (ORGYc)

322 Again, another gotcha. Are you saying booze wasn't a factor in the violence during Prohibition?

Money was the factor. Booze was just what they sold. They've always got something to sell, and they'd just been handed a huge monopoly and motive to protect it. (Paging Joe Kennedy. Never underestimate how interlinked these things get.)

The thugs would just have been there, they just might not have gotten as much attention...

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 05:15 PM (GBXon)

323 After Capone consolidatedhisIllinois empire the violence ceased.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:15 PM (m2CN7)

324 I don't think we're there yet.
Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 05:12 PM (jm/9g)


---------------------------------------------


There's one word in that sentence that's key to what we're facing.

Posted by: Soona at January 08, 2013 05:15 PM (J/7oO)

325 Late to this thread but I'm having the horrible thought that this school shooting is somehow mutating into our Reichstag Fire.

I pray that it not be so.

Posted by: LGoPs at January 08, 2013 05:15 PM (BJVEF)

326 But those already exist.

You are claiming that the market will simply get filled by something else.

Like somehow the illegal drug market is just a placeholder for other vices.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:15 PM (xAtAj)

327 Piers is trying to take on the persona of a WWE villain like the Iron Sheik. He's playing the character of an arrogant foreigner that believes the constitution and bible are outdated relics, not worthy of his sophistication. The funny thing is it seems to be riling up the toothless hotheads that follow Alex Jones in pretty much the same way they get riled up at wrestling matches. So, score one for Piers.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at January 08, 2013 05:16 PM (+lsX1)

328 You think 50% of Americans would be on heroin if it were legal?
Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:09 PM (xAtAj)



Is TFG still President? Because I'm seeing both correlation and causation if so.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 08, 2013 05:16 PM (VtjlW)

329 309 HoboJerky,

You seem to want to pretend that violent crime in the drug trade is based on money as reward rather than power.

Plenty of places in the US you can get a person killed over 50 bucks.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:16 PM (LRFds)

330 I've already responded previously to the laughably
wrong insinuation that drug use rates are exponential, or would be
exponential here.



Are you arguing that it would be absolutely and totally flat? If so how did we go from 0% up to 2 % ??????



You think 50% of Americans would be on heroin if it were legal?


Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:09 PM (xAtAj)

Probably not. It would follow a logistical growth pattern, but because the fatality rate is so high, it would never likely reach 50%. They would just be dying off too fast to spread it at a rate fast enough to achieve 50%. But still, I don't see a plus side to having millions of dead people.




Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 08, 2013 05:16 PM (bb5+k)

331 But also, HJ--since you hold that Prohibition caused the violence, where do you hold on applying that argument to the last 10 years of terrorist hunting? Agree or not?

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 05:17 PM (GBXon)

332 Less Alex Jones and Piers Morgan.

More Alex Morgan.

http://olympicgirls.net/sport-girls/alex-morgan_02.jpg

Posted by: Waterhouse at January 08, 2013 05:17 PM (S/WR4)

333 326 But those already exist.

You are claiming that the market will simply get filled by something else.

Like somehow the illegal drug market is just a placeholder for other vices.

---

They may exist already, but it doesn't mean that they won't wax if the drug traffic begins to wane.

They aren't putting an effort into other areas because drugs are an easy avenue right now. If that easy avenue goes away, gang activity won't stop as much as mutate into another form.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 05:17 PM (e0xKF)

334 For God, Country, and Coca-Cola.
http://is.gd/i5K6GY

Citations, how DO they work.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ #NukeIowaCity at January 08, 2013 05:17 PM (ZKzrr)

335 Sentences for drug offenses down 8% over the last decade.

Harshing your fucking mellow, man!!!

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:18 PM (+DMSZ)

336 323 Polynikes,

eh....

"eh"

We discussing Mook on Mook crime or crime at large?

I study the mob when insomnia strikes was the violence ever as bad as "peak"?

No but they still were chicago.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:18 PM (LRFds)

337 But also, HJ--since you hold that Prohibition caused
the violence, where do you hold on applying that argument to the last
10 years of terrorist hunting? Agree or not?

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 05:17 PM (GBXon)

Yeah I'm going to respond to a complete leap of logic.
Terrorism is not a product or good people value. Terrorism is a tactic to achieve goals.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:18 PM (xAtAj)

338 We create the environment for gangbangers to be created and thrive.

End the drug war, and the pipeline would dry up.


You and anyone else can talk about what you feel should be done regarding drug laws and the "war on drugs", but the reality is that substances like heroin, crack and meth will never be legalized (short of societal collapse).

That's the main problem I have with Libertarians and every other form of idealist be they Conservative, Liberal, Libertarian or Rastafarian. No matter how long or loudly they circle-jerk over how great their idealistic vision of society would be, it remains idealistic fantasy that will never happen. So what's the point?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 05:18 PM (SY2Kh)

339 308 (really nice number, btw, one of my faves)...


Just wait until we get to 762!

Posted by: rickb223 at January 08, 2013 05:18 PM (3wlvV)

340 I personally think CO will end up a worse place to live in five years with the pot legalization. But we shall see.

Posted by: Serious Cat at January 08, 2013 05:18 PM (UypUQ)

341 327 Piers is trying to take on the persona of a WWE villain like the Iron Sheik. He's playing the character of an arrogant foreigner that believes the constitution and bible are outdated relics, not worthy of his sophistication. The funny thing is it seems to be riling up the toothless hotheads that follow Alex Jones in pretty much the same way they get riled up at wrestling matches. So, score one for Piers.

---

FUCK THAT JABRONI BASTARD PIERS MORGAN! I break his back, fuck him in the ass, and make him humble!

Posted by: Kosrow Vazziri at January 08, 2013 05:19 PM (e0xKF)

342 I hate drugs and hate people who abuse drugs--I've relished every opportunity to terminate employees who've violated drug policy both in the military and civilian side. Having a drug-addled uncle and an idiot brother who didn't learn from his example makes me want to increase efforts at drug intervention.

Given that the Sandy Hill shooting was so politically beneficial to him, I refuse to dismiss the idea that Obama directly planned the attack so that he would have an opportunity to confiscate weapons. We must seek to undermine his presidency at all costs.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at January 08, 2013 05:19 PM (sPDBV)

343 Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 05:18 PM (SY2Kh)

Ah, well I'm under no delusions. Weed will be legalized, eventually I'm guessing. But the American public is pro-Drug War and they will be for a long time.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:19 PM (xAtAj)

344 I'm just being all Smart Military Blog and being theoretical.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:20 PM (xAtAj)

345 Ah, fuck the drug crusaders. I hope they get shot and/or locked in cages full of rapists.

Posted by: Entropy at January 08, 2013 05:21 PM (TULs6)

346 If I could do anything I wanted to to destroy a country, I would provide the citizenryall the drugs they could carry.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:21 PM (m2CN7)

347 Just google Zheng Minsheng and Chinese attack.

Murdered 8 schoolchildren with a knife.

GUNS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.

Unless someone looks at the real root causes of this mania we are just going in circles. The NRA's proposal is the only one that could serve as a legit defense against madmen.

Posted by: Prescient11 at January 08, 2013 05:21 PM (tVTLU)

348 Posted by: Soona at January 08, 2013 05:15 PM (J/7oO)
__
Yes I know what you mean. Maybe my view is colored by my environment. Although a Philly suburbanite, my roots are in a Pennsyltucky-ish town where the Stars and Bars can still fly and no one dares utter a syllable against it.

I come from a town that is avoided by the perps who hopscotch over it because they know damn well that the rednecks who inhabit it are armed to the teeth. (This is in purple Pennsylvania.)

Who is going to take their guns?

Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 05:22 PM (jm/9g)

349 I am interested in cryptozoology, though. There's always something out there.
Pandas were unknown to the West until the 1860's. Mountain gorillas even later than that.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at January 08, 2013 05:22 PM (oKVrA)

350 340 I personally think CO will end up a worse place to live in five years with the pot legalization. But we shall see.


-----

It may be. I wonder how much of that might be similar to the difference in drunk driving when some places set the drinking age at 18 and others at 21.

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 08, 2013 05:22 PM (b+8h9)

351 So, no response to the proof that drug offenders make up only 17% of the prison population, and has been on the decline for a decade?

Shocker.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:22 PM (+DMSZ)

352 EOJ link?

Posted by: Hobojerky at January 08, 2013 05:23 PM (pekf7)

353 On the Homosexual issue. Homosexuals are DANGEROUS to society for two obvious reasons. They are the largest repository of sexually transmitted diseases, and they are way outside the social norms regarding sexual conduct. (as many as ten sexual encounters in a night in San Fransisco bath houses.)


They are still banned from donating blood because physicians are knowledgeable about the incidence of disease in the Homosexual community. (Were it not for Modern Medicine and Modern Media, the AIDS epidemic would have wiped out millions more people.)


40% of Homosexuals in one JAMA study indicate that they were molested as children. The incidence of molestation is very high among members of the Homosexual community, but this is widely covered up by advocates for that side.


That is a very brief outline of the more obvious dangers to society which this lifestyle presents. I would go into more detail in a proper forum, but this is about all that can be pointed out in a comments section.



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 08, 2013 05:24 PM (bb5+k)

354 Yeah I'm going to respond to a complete leap of logic.

OK, let me lay it out for you.

Society A sees something that it has a real problem with (booze or Islamic radicals). It takes steps to exclude or mitigate it. Those with interests in those things become violent. Society A responds in kind.

It's not about the product. It's about interests.

I say again: Do you blame the society for creating those it fights against? If so, based on what?

This is separate from the merits of the original exclusion. No way in hell will I ever argue Prohibition was anything but a good idea, but the question of whether it conjured legions of bad men into existence just doesn't fly. This is 'guns cause violence' territory...

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 05:24 PM (GBXon)

355 Sergent and Morgan couldn't do that. They have a simple-minded understanding that Guns are Bad and do not have the intellectual curiosity to discover, even though it's actually part of their jobs to do so, in what ways Guns May Be Good, or, at least, the reasons people might think Guns May Be Good.


Only true if "journalist" means what the vast majority of people take it to mean.

In reality, "journalist" is someone who tells bedtime stories to leftists.

Actively avoiding the truth is preferable to finding it when your job is to tell bedtime stories to leftists.

Posted by: Truman at Stop (ampersand) Shop at January 08, 2013 05:26 PM (DOysX)

356 Well, to you Nathan Fillion fans, he talked. Fuck him and fuck Castle. Went after wendys after they cut hours to avoid Obamacare. Will they ever learn?

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 05:26 PM (l86i3)

357 Are jackboots going to show up at their homes and confiscate their weapons?

I don't think we're there yet.
Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 05:12 PM (jm/9g)

________________

Agreed.

The US military is still mostly made up of their sons.

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 05:27 PM (r2PLg)

358 French movie alert !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"With a Friend Like Harry" just started on STARZ, iffn you got that channel and appreciate that sort of Thing

Posted by: open the pod bay doors, HAL at January 08, 2013 05:27 PM (Dll6b)

359 Scroll up. Or google "prison population by crime" and the BjS site has a PDF with all the stats for 2011.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:27 PM (+DMSZ)

360
I'm just thinking that it's just so much easier for a government/tyranny to dictate to a drugged populace.

Posted by: Soona at January 08, 2013 05:13 PM (J/7oO)

A Drugged populace won't obey the government either. Mao had to order all the drug addicts killed to solve China's drug problem. The reason we are stuck at 2% addiction is because the American public won't tolerate what it would take to bring it down to zero, and the drug problem cannot be eliminated with half-measures.





Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 08, 2013 05:27 PM (bb5+k)

361 Oh, and please cite your source for 50% of inmates being drug offenders.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:28 PM (+DMSZ)

362 356 OSP,

Duly noted....a liberal douche wworking for a liberal douche who portrayed by accident a decent conservative.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:30 PM (LRFds)

363 One thing about pot being legal in Colorado--

The halitosis WILL.BE. UP!

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 05:30 PM (r2PLg)

364 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:28 PM (+DMSZ)

According to the Bureau of Justice stats, Drug-related crime, fed, state and local is around 25%

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 05:31 PM (l86i3)

365 And if the halitosis is UP--the birth rate will be down--so there's that.

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 05:31 PM (r2PLg)

366 "Who is going to take their guns?"

Good question. Let me answer a question with a question: if they're going to use these guns for actual self-defense instead of target shooting and someplace other than out-of-earshot of someone who's going to call the police and report gunfire.

Basically, if Zero/That Fcking Guy goes through with his executive order shit, and his supreme court shit, he doesn't have to round them up, he can just have the book thrown at you if you actually use one to defend yourself. Imagine how much quicker the Zimmerman trial would have gone by now possession of an "assault pistol" would have been enough to put him away for a couple dozen years.

Enact the "right" laws, then ratchet up the lawlessness as the economy collapses to Venezuela levels, and selectively enforce them on anyone who defends themselves from a gang...

Do these people ever intend on using these guns rather than keeping them buried in the garden and sprinkling rem oil on the carrots every once in a while?

Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at January 08, 2013 05:31 PM (BIJKO)

367 If I could do anything I wanted to to destroy a country, I would provide the citizenryall the drugs they could carry.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:21 PM (m2CN7)


Japan imported tons of Opium into China for decades prior to their invasion. They were softening the target and making money at the same time.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 08, 2013 05:31 PM (bb5+k)

368 360 DiogenesLamp,

DL I agree.

Epic Breaking bad Clip NSFW..

http://youtu.be/n3u-6UFLubI

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:32 PM (LRFds)

369 So, no response to the proof that drug offenders make up only 17% of the
prison population, and has been on the decline for a decade?


The pro-legalization crowd that trot out stats showing a high percentage of prisoners incarcerated for drug offenses usually include crimes tangentially related to drugs. Things like robbing a store to get drug money, committing murder over a drug debt or because they were high on meth, etc.

It's a bit dishonest, though not completely.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 05:32 PM (SY2Kh)

370 290 Kids on every street corner in bad neighborhoods selling ___?

-----------

Indeed. They will sell ___, bl*zer, or ampersands.

Posted by: Citizen Anachronda at January 08, 2013 05:34 PM (IrbU4)

371 I quoted state inmate populations clearly. Still waiting for the source for that 50% drug offender "stat."

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:34 PM (+DMSZ)

372 According to the Bureau of Justice stats, Drug-related crime, fed, state and local is around 25%

Possessing a joint might be considered a drug-related crime, but practically nobody goes to prison for it.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 05:35 PM (SY2Kh)

373 Hollowpoint, that's not what they claim. It's always some poor sap with a nickel bag. But why expect honesty from the pro-drug set?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:38 PM (+DMSZ)

374 Will they ever learn?
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet


Not until they feel the full brunt of their stupidity. Pain instructs like no other.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 08, 2013 05:39 PM (djdc7)

375 373 EoJ,

people justifying their habits are capable of serious CD in the arguing.

I am favoring normalization because I want to Cloward-Piven US healthcare if the Feds are our slavemasters on the issue.

I *am* evil on this point.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 05:40 PM (LRFds)

376 Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at January 08, 2013 05:31 PM (BIJKO)
__
The guys I know have firearms (and crossbows) for hunting and guns for self-defense. How they store them I do not know. They do not seem the type to keep them buried in the garden.

I grew up in a house that was a virtual armory. My dad was a hunter, but he also had handguns and rifles and any other weapon that he might need to defend his person and his family. He slept with a shotgun under his bed. One morning he woke up to find the car he'd just bought for mom disappeared. He must have had a clue who stole it because that evening he and one of his boys went out with rifles. The next morning the car was back in the driveway. No police were involved.

I understand it was a different time, but this is also evidence of a culture that is very much alive in these parts - and we're not even a red state. Will the commie feds attempt to put a legislative squeeze on gun ownership? No doubt. But if they ever try to physically confiscate the personal armories of the populace, they will meet resistance.

And they know it. That's why they're trotting out poor Gabby Giffords to launch these soft confiscation intitiatives such as the gun givebacks.
I hope the NRA knows to counter with ads showing moms who saved their children by using firearms.

Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 05:41 PM (jm/9g)

377 Would it be possible to exterminate all plant life used to make drugs through a targeted plant disease or something?

Serious question.

Posted by: Serious Cat at January 08, 2013 05:41 PM (UypUQ)

378 Wouldn't the Chesterton analogy argue *against* decriminalizing pot and allowing gay marriage?

The prohibitions against homosexuality didn't just spring up naturally. Cultures across the globe and history created them.

So if we wish to end these prohibitions, we should understand why they were there in the first place.

Yet this doesn't seem to be allowed. Any argument against gay marriage always* is dismissed as hate/homophobia/bible worship, etc.

Same with pot.

(*Feel free to substitute "usually" for "always" if you're not down with the whole absolutism of the above referenced sentence.)


Posted by: Adam at January 08, 2013 05:42 PM (C+qQ0)

379 Are jackboots going to show up at their homes and confiscate their weapons?
I don't think we're there yet.
Posted by: kallisto at January 08, 2013 05:12 PM (jm/9g)
The US military is still mostly made up of their sons.

Posted by: tasker at January 08, 2013 05:27 PM (r2PLg)

My own son, an infantry private, included.

However, that doesn't mean there won't be midnight knocks on the door coming our way. I would argue that the best tactic for an oppressive federal government would be employing selective arrests, targeting those they view as key opinion leaders of the opposition, not mass arrests with the mass panicand unrest that would certainly follow from such a thing. Further, if the feds tell state or municipal LE agencies that a heavily armed, mad-dog domestic terrorist lives within their jurisdiction (we're looking at another Timothy McVey-like scenario here, Chief) and would they please provide local assistance? Most would comply.

Thanks to the militarization of law enforcement via funding and programs supplied by the federal government, most municipal LE--no matter how rural or peaceful--are now equipped with the latest SWAT armaments and gear. We're not talking Mayberry PD. Mayberry isn't Mayberry, notanymore.

Posted by: troyriser at January 08, 2013 05:42 PM (vtiE6)

380
OT
Charlie Sheen is calling out L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa ... claiming he was flat-out LYING when he said he spent ONLY 3 minutes with the actor in Cabo -- Charlie says the Mayor hung with him for hours, chatting it up and drinking with a bunch



Posted by: thunderb at January 08, 2013 05:42 PM (Dnbau)

381 Serious question.
Posted by: Serious Cat at January 08, 2013 05:41 PM (UypUQ)

They spray the poppy fields like a MFr in afcrapistan. Nary a dent.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 08, 2013 05:42 PM (l86i3)

382 Would it be possible to exterminate all plant life used to make drugs through a targeted plant disease or something?

Serious question.


Posted by: Serious Cat at January 08, 2013 05:41 PM (UypUQ)

Wouldn't work for synthesized drugs.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at January 08, 2013 05:43 PM (bb5+k)

383 377 Would it be possible to exterminate all plant life used to make drugs through a targeted plant disease or something?

Serious question.

---

If possible, that would have consequences past the illicit drug trade.

Taking out the poppy, for instance, would likely have further ramifications on painkillers because many of them are in the opiate family.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 08, 2013 05:44 PM (e0xKF)

384 Hollowpoint, that's not what they claim. It's always some poor sap with a
nickel bag. But why expect honesty from the pro-drug set?


It's not always intentional dishonesty.

I imagine that someone reads an article about how a high percentage of prisoners say that they committed crimes as a (direct or indirect) result of drug use and/or dealing, and they later mis-remember it as "50% of prisoners are there for drug offenses".

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 05:45 PM (SY2Kh)

385 Jeremy Clarkson is a pompous America-bashing Anglophile with teeth that would make Austin Powers blush. Then again, he hates Piers Morgan, environmentalists, and finger-waving government nannies. And he manages to be intentionally funny from time to time, especially when behind the wheel of a Reliant Robin.

I'm not sure what my point is, other than Piers Morgan sucks.


Posted by: weew at January 08, 2013 05:47 PM (ElfHn)

386 Crimes committed within the framework of the drug trade should be included. It's a negative externality of the Drug War.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what "indirect" means.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:48 PM (FsUAO)

387 382 Would it be possible to exterminate all plant life used to make drugs through a targeted plant disease or something?


-----------

I doubt it. If it is possible, it's expensive and likely to wipe out a fair amount of useful plants or insects or something. Plus with mj in particular, you'd have to go around confiscating plants from private homes on a horrifying scale. Then you've got meth which is a whole other ball of wax, as drano and cold medicine don't grow in fields.

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 08, 2013 05:48 PM (b+8h9)

388 Would it be possible to exterminate all plant life used to make drugs through a targeted plant disease or something?

You have far more faith in Science! to avoid clusterf*ckery than I do. Suffice it to say, anyone who had plants isolated in greenhouses winds up on top of that heap after the shake-out, the drugs are still out there, you just shuffled the deck.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 05:49 PM (GBXon)

389 "Indirect" meaning this dude is selling drugs on another's turf and gets shot?

or "Indirect" like "hey I need money to buy my heroin"

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:49 PM (FsUAO)

390 What's the latest on the David Gregory criminal "investigation"?

Posted by: mrp at January 08, 2013 05:49 PM (HjPtV)

391 and even then, the inflated price of heroin makes it advantageous to steal... but I'm willing to see some clearer analysis

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:49 PM (FsUAO)

392 "There's got to be a level of discourse that can rise above what happened last night. It was undignified, unedifying"

A level of discourse like...


Piers Morgan’s “discussion” with Larry Pratt, the Executive Director of Gun Owners of America, including the gem: PM - "You’re in an unbelievably stupid man!".

Posted by: Brian at January 08, 2013 05:50 PM (Hd5n8)

393 So yes I agree that direct crime is lower than 50% of prison population, I never meant that. I meant total number of crimes which are attributable to the black market of illegal drugs.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:51 PM (FsUAO)

394 So Hobo if a drug dealer kills another drug dealer , he is not in prison for murder but because ofa drug crime? Is that what you are claiming.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:51 PM (m2CN7)

395 Alright I gots to scoot. Thanks for the link EOJ.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:51 PM (FsUAO)

396 Piers and Alex set that up. Both get a ton of headlines today. Anyone who doesn't see it is a fool.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 08, 2013 05:51 PM (HDgX3)

397 So Hobo if a drug dealer kills another drug dealer , he is not in prison for murder but because ofa drug crime? Is that what you are claiming.
Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:51 PM (m2CN7)

No I'm saying you have to tally the murder as an externality of the drug war. Which it clearly is.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:52 PM (FsUAO)

398 The commentary on the Liberty Law site (with a couple of exceptions) is very good. If you missed it then, read it now.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/a7s5rrb

Now think about what effect that would have on the leftists and the control maniacs. None.

There isn't a "debate." It is, always has been, and always will be about Power and Control.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at January 08, 2013 05:52 PM (bxiXv)

399 Just say you want it legal so you can get jinked outta your fuckin mind without The Man hassling you.

I'll accept that.

But all these contortions are ridiculous.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:53 PM (+DMSZ)

400 You think new markets would open up to fill it's spot? Kids on every street corner in bad neighborhoods selling ___?


Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 75% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:08 PM

Guns, cigarettes, Big Gulps, et al

As long as government "knows what's best for you", there'll be banned products that the public wants and their "betters" don't want them to have.

Posted by: kbdabear at January 08, 2013 05:54 PM (wwsoB)

401 Would it be possible to exterminate all plant life used to make drugs through a targeted plant disease or something?

Yes, but you'd need to use a crossbow.

Posted by: pep at January 08, 2013 05:54 PM (6TB1Z)

402 I was right... so it's contortions?

I said the Drug War has way too many costs... and it does.

I don't know if it's 50%(maybe 25% as per link up there) but I think it's totally reasonable to count up ALL the negative externalities of the drug war, not just the ones that make your point,

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 05:55 PM (FsUAO)

403 385
Jeremy Clarkson is a pompous America-bashing Anglophile with teeth that
would make Austin Powers blush. Then again, he hates Piers Morgan,
environmentalists, and finger-waving government nannies. And he manages
to be intentionally funny from time to time, especially when behind the
wheel of a Reliant Robin.

I'm not sure what my point is, other than Piers Morgan sucks.




Posted by: weew at January 08, 2013 05:47 PM (ElfHn)

Does it mean that he'd be better suited to be absolute monarch of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland than the current figureheads and neutered nanny-staters that currently run it?
Then again, I've recently figured out that I watch Top Gear for James May, not Clarkson. Make of that what you will.

Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at January 08, 2013 05:55 PM (aozUR)

404 Posted by: Brother Cavil, Scourge of Zeta Reticulae at January 08, 2013 05:49 PM (GBXon)


--------

Yeah. Not only does the deck just get shuffled, the scarcity makes the drug more valuable. Which makes the turf that much more important to protect, and the junkies that much more desperate and prone to steal.

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 08, 2013 05:55 PM (b+8h9)

405 Word has it that the White House, Democrats, and gun control advocates are planning to try to “overwhelm” the National Rifle Association when the battle over guns heats up this month

When your plan consists of backing 100M heavily armed Americans into a corner, perhaps you should reconsider.

Seriously, somebody make a list of every Dim in a district or state won by Bush, McCain, or Romney up for election in 2014, write an alternative gun law: mandate shall issue and reciprocity, make gun-free zones require specific Congressional designation, mandate any school receiving Federal funds have full time, armed security manned by law enforcement or combat veterans, etc, then offer those Dims an opportunity to co-sponsor the bill. If they don't co-sponsor, start the campaign barrage now.

Posted by: Jean at January 08, 2013 05:57 PM (74T7W)

406 I admit the biggest reason I never tried pot was it was against the law. Legalizing drugs would destroy our country after only a few decades.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:57 PM (m2CN7)

407 I am more than a little uneasy with Alex Jones being with me on any side of any argument. That dude is not wrapped too tight.

Posted by: navybrat at January 08, 2013 05:58 PM (BzGtc)

408 >>>But can they actually explain the other side of the argument? As
they say, a good lawyer, one who really understands the issues of the
case, can argue either side of it effectively. He may favor one side
over the other, but he knows enough of both to make a strong case for
either.

I've had many a liberal get frustrated with me over that very point. When I tell them, and demonstrate, that I can argue their side more convincingly than they can, that I understand their own philosophy better than they do. It is a huge blow to a liberal to be shown to be ignorant. They pride themselves as not being the unwashed masses "who just don't understand". At that point I usually pre-empt their attacks on my virtue. Because it is like clockwork with a liberal.

If you disagree, it's because
1. You don't understand. Let me explain (Which they do quite poorly)
2. Oh...You do understand, and still disagree? You must be evil then.

That is the total scope of liberal thinking toward their opposition, that they fall into at least one of two categories. Stupid, or evil.

aside Rosecrucianism learned something new. Had no idea what that was.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at January 08, 2013 05:58 PM (0q2P7)

409 Great post. Thanks.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at January 08, 2013 05:58 PM (X/+QT)

410 :::402 I was right... so it's contortions? :;;

No and yes, respectively.

Now it's the War on Externalities. You're high right now, aren't you?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 08, 2013 05:58 PM (+DMSZ)

411 390 What's the latest on the David Gregory criminal "investigation"?

Posted by: mrp at January 08, 2013 05:49 PM (HjPtV)


Leftists are above the law.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at January 08, 2013 05:59 PM (bxiXv)

412 "Indirect" meaning this dude is selling drugs on another's turf and gets shot?



or "Indirect" like "hey I need money to buy my heroin"


Both are indirect, as neither murder or theft are drug offenses.

Legalizing drugs wouldn't negate the addict's need for heroin money, and the criminal gang member protecting his turf is still likely to be in a gang whether they deal drugs or not.

Point is, those who cite statistics claiming a high percentage of prisoners being incarcerated for drug crimes typically do so in an attempt to (falsely) portray a prison system full of people who committed no crime other than using drugs.

Legalizing meth wouldn't turn an unemployable, thieving addict into an upstanding, law abiding member of society.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 06:00 PM (SY2Kh)

413 Shirt, I thought you were saying the hobo was killing the dealer with an indirect fire potato gun. Which I think would be a great new reality show, maybe from Brazil.

Posted by: Jean at January 08, 2013 06:02 PM (74T7W)

414 The Leftist answer to Chesterton is the same as it is to anything they don't like:

Chesterton's is a dead white man who's opinions are irrelevant.

Besides, they can always scrounge up some way to demonstrate that the wall was oppressing someone.

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at January 08, 2013 06:04 PM (Y5I9o)

415 Point is, those who cite statistics claiming a high percentage of prisoners being incarcerated for drug crimes typically do so in an attempt to (falsely) portray a prison system full of people who committed no crime other than using drugs.

Legalizing meth wouldn't turn an unemployable, thieving addict into an upstanding, law abiding member of society.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 08, 2013 06:00 PM (SY2Kh)

Well I did not mean to, and frankly I always thought that that is what it meant. I agree it would be wrong to pose it that way.(It just never occurred to me!)

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 74% more DOOM! at January 08, 2013 06:08 PM (FsUAO)

416 Occupy Theory: I don't need to use reason because "reason" as we now know it was invented by White European Men in order to secure their dominance over bourgeois society.

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at January 08, 2013 06:08 PM (Y5I9o)

417 406
I admit the biggest reason I never tried pot was it was against the law.
Legalizing drugs would destroy our country after only a few decades.

Posted by: polynikes at January 08, 2013 05:57 PM (m2CN7)

_____________
Come on seriously?

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 08, 2013 06:10 PM (HDgX3)

418 Mr. ATF Agent, I had a big collection of ARs, but they were lost in a terrible boating accident.

Posted by: Titanic Steward at January 08, 2013 06:12 PM (zoFYo)

419 408
>>>But can they actually explain the other side of the argument? As

they say, a good lawyer, one who really understands the issues of the

case, can argue either side of it effectively. He may favor one side

over the other, but he knows enough of both to make a strong case for

either.

I've had many a liberal get frustrated with me over
that very point. When I tell them, and demonstrate, that I can argue
their side more convincingly than they can, that I understand their own
philosophy better than they do. It is a huge blow to a liberal to be
shown to be ignorant. They pride themselves as not being the unwashed
masses "who just don't understand". At that point I usually pre-empt
their attacks on my virtue. Because it is like clockwork with a liberal.

If you disagree, it's because
1. You don't understand. Let me explain (Which they do quite poorly)
2. Oh...You do understand, and still disagree? You must be evil then.

That
is the total scope of liberal thinking toward their opposition, that
they fall into at least one of two categories. Stupid, or evil.

aside Rosecrucianism learned something new. Had no idea what that was.


Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at January 08, 2013 05:58 PM (0q2P7)

_____________
Heh. I do that too libs I know. I'll just casually say something like "well you know I don't agree with your position on X, but so and so liberal scholar does make a valid point that X might work if Y happens". 9/10 times they have no clue what I'm talking about and it is quite delicious watching them try to figure out what the fuck just happened. They can't disagree with me because it would mean disagreeing with themselves and they can't agree with me because, well shit I'm a right wing loon and they can't agree with a right wing loon either.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 08, 2013 06:15 PM (HDgX3)

420 To bad this Jones didn't have at his ready more statistic on UK murders with weapons other that guns. Newest thing is cops are out manned and out gunned. Read somewhere about ATM thefts in England. Four vehicles, involved, rip out ATM, if lone cop does try to act, cop car gets boxed in. ATM is taken to a field, cash is divied up by guys with machine guns and one or two wittle cops are out manned and out gunned and there's not a damn thing they can do.

Posted by: Deli LLama at January 08, 2013 06:16 PM (lGu1O)

421 I have issues with anyone who feels the need to do anything "because I like it." That is the unexamined life, and the definition of hedonism and relativism.


I also have trouble with anyone who says I wish to ban something "because I don't like it." That is not a reason, it is an excuse.


If I learned anything in design school, it was that things "are" for a reason, not an excuse. If you can't say why something is done, cogently, intellectually, then you can't do it in good conscience. Otherwise, nothing is of value, except as a hedonistic experience, which eventually leads to utter chaos.

Posted by: tcn at January 08, 2013 06:20 PM (VLG62)

422 Would it be possible to exterminate all plant life used to make drugs through a targeted plant disease or something?


Perfect argument for a drug warrior. I couldn't have made up anything better than that. LOFL.


On multiple levels. It's like an onion. It has layers and layers.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 06:22 PM (zV+kv)

423 Hmmm, while doing my research in the 1980s 60% of prisoners admitted to addiction or abuse of substances. 90% of those were using their drug of choice when they committed the crime for which they were incarcerated. Drug treatment people quoted that stat for years, which is one of the reasons I remember it. Can it have changed so much since 1985?

Posted by: SurferDoc at January 08, 2013 06:23 PM (6H6FZ)

424 And you people scoff at the magical thinking of gun banners.


Maybe we can round up all the metal on the planet and shoot it into space. Then we would have no metal to make weapons!

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 06:23 PM (zV+kv)

425 Legalizing meth wouldn't turn an unemployable, thieving addict into an upstanding, law abiding member of society.

-------

Eh, I don't know that anyone thinks legalizing X drug will end the problem of unemployed, waste-of-skin addicts. I certainly don't. I think it might reduce some of the crime associated with drugs, by lowering costs and chasing the gangs out of the drug business. Yes, the gangs will move on to something else. And then the government can use the tax money it was spending on enforcing drug laws to fight the gangs in *that* industry, if that new industry is actually victimizing someone.

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at January 08, 2013 06:26 PM (b+8h9)

426 About the drugs, just because so many people are in jail on drug charges, somehow legalizing it will make everything all better?



I call BS. Drugs are detrimental to society. Therefore, society is perfectly within it's right to try to get rid of drugs or eliminate the detriment, i.e. jail the offenders.


You wanna get high, do it outside the law.

Posted by: tcn at January 08, 2013 06:26 PM (VLG62)

427 >>>Serious Question.

Well if your "drugs" included caffeine that would include coffee tea and chocolate among others.

If your "drugs" included alcohol it would mean exterminating just about every plant on earth.

If your "drugs" included opiates it would include giving up Morphine, Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, and various other pain relievers given to the terminally ill, grievously injured, or those recovering from surgery.

Oh wait. Nevermind you can synthesize ALL of those things. And you can synthesize Heroin, and cocaine, and THC, Meth has always been synthetic. So what exactly are you trying to accomplish with this mass extinction event?

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at January 08, 2013 06:34 PM (0q2P7)

428 Piers Morgan? Geraldo Rivera? Pfffft. Fucking lightweights.
You haven't "arrived" until you've crapped your pants at the White house.

Posted by: Al Roker at January 08, 2013 06:43 PM (wAQA5)

429 "Morgan, Sergent, and the rest of the liberal blockheads all have this
simple-minded and ugly belief that their culture -- urban, liberal, wealthy (or at least mixing in the circles of those who may become wealthy in their later years) -- is not merely a culture, with its own mix of arbitrary class prejudices and class beliefs, but the culture, the plainly superior one, the one that is so
demonstrably correct that one should have no trepidation whatsoever
about attempting the mobilize the coercive powers of the government to
make their culture the legally mandated one."

===
The hilariously ironic thing I've always found about this is that it's the exact same mindset used to morally justify the old colonialism, which they hate with a burning passion (or at least profess to). "We're not going in to steal all their resources; we're going in to CIVILIZE them, because our culture is THE culture".


-The fringe kook stuff:
Ghosts - Dunno. In both my parents' and grandparents' houses, I've seen and heard weird enough shit to be a fence-sitter here. Logically I want to say "no", but I've also seen things like clocks falling off the wall, sit there for about three seconds on the floor, then slide 10' across the floor like someone kicked it, up the slope of the floor, in my grandma's house.
UFOs - Atmospheric phenomena and test aircraft. Aliens remotest of possibilities, but highly unlikely.
Atlantis - Possible as embellished fragments of an old tale about a real event if talking about the Plato account. Probably Santorini. The others are full of it (spaceships, flying castles, etc).
faeries in the garden - no
astral projection - no
pyramid power - no
Rosecrucianism - no
psychic abilities - no
Shadow People - no
Bigfoot - possibly at least used to exist. Too many family accounts to discount. These going back to the late 1940's and early 1950's on mom's side of great uncles, grandpa, great grandpa, and neighbors changing entire hunting grounds (bear in mind, these were experienced woodsmen living in homesteads in Missouri with miles between neighbors) because they say they saw one in the area. Local name back then was "Beaman Monster", and they won't talk about it to anyone outside the family.

It doesn't help me here that I don't put much stock in what naturalists say are in an area, just based on personal experience: "No coyotes in the Cincinnati Area, stop calling, you're seeing a neighbor's dog": Now we have a coyote infestation. "No mountain lions left in the Ozarks" : I've seen them skulking in the woods when out there visiting grandma, almost hit one with the car one night about 5-6 years ago, hear them yelling some nights when out there.

Posted by: Ranba Ral at January 08, 2013 06:50 PM (G99e4)

430 378 : Just what I was thinking, at least as far as Gay Marriage is concerned.

Pot was banned recently enough to have a good idea of the reasons they had for doing so. We've also had considerable experience since then of the downside of the ban, so we should be able to make a reasoned evaluation of the net benefits.

Posted by: Socratease at January 08, 2013 06:51 PM (3V4IJ)

431 I believe in ghosts and faeries cause that shit is real.

Bigfoot, UFOs = bullshit

Posted by: Yet another CT moron at January 08, 2013 06:52 PM (Xf6HL)

432 Drugs are detrimental to society.


So are Super Big Gulps and incandescent light bulbs.


So there you go. Enjoy.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 06:55 PM (zV+kv)

433 Also, while we make fun of the fact that the gun-grabbing leftists know almost nothing about guns whatsoever, it's nice that we can all ignore the fact that half of you couldn't actually define 'drug'.


No idea what they are, just knows they need to be banned.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 07:02 PM (zV+kv)

434 And so it begins:

A deal to give New York one of the toughest gun control laws in the nation is being negotiated by Gov. Andrew Cuomo, who, sources said Tuesday, is hoping to announce the plan Wednesday during his State of the State speech in Albany.

Cuomo hopes to jump-start the 2013 legislative session with a big deal that could dramatically alter gun control laws across the state.

Posted by: Jay at January 08, 2013 07:04 PM (WSgyE)

435
Same with homosexuality, once upon a time, 30 or 40 years ago, when
anti-homosexuality laws were occasionally enforced -- it is trivially easy for
heterosexuals to find no value in homosexual sex, given that we don't
like it (and in fact are repelled at the idea of taking part in it ourselves)


It's not finding no value in it, it's that male homosexuality (the only one lawmakers, or the Bible for that matter) really considered, constitutes a public health hazard. Guys will root their brains out with everyone and anyone (gotta spread those polliwogs), but normally are prevented from doing this by women, who slow us down.

Remove women from the equation, then introduce a disease, and it's on. Patient Zero of AIDS fame claimed (IIRC) to have had something like 5000 partners (!) in a three year period. Even today, male homosexuals are the major reservoirs of STDs (AIDS, syphilis, gonorrhea, hepatitis B), and keep the prevalence higher than it otherwise would be.

So efforts todiscourage homosexuality weren't just a matter of taste, but also public health, much like those against spitting on the sidewalk, or requiring food handlers to wash their hands after relieving themselves.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at January 08, 2013 07:06 PM (DXlwL)

436 I don't like pot and I think it's bad for you, but I think it ought to be legalized to cut the crime. People argue that it will just socially legitimize it, but seriously...that ship sailed a looooong time ago. Ask any high schooler. Hell, ask any grade schooler.





Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at January 08, 2013 07:06 PM (Y5I9o)

437
Nevermind you can synthesize ALL of those things. And you can synthesize Heroin, and cocaine, and THC


Strictly speaking, it is true, but wholly impractical to synthesize these drugs de novo in any quantity. It's like saying you could build your own car, starting with digging up iron ore. True, in principle, but as a practical matter ...

Posted by: Jay Guevara at January 08, 2013 07:12 PM (DXlwL)

438 Look, a chipmunk! Oh wait, that's Alex Jones.

Posted by: Fritz at January 08, 2013 07:14 PM (w3+gB)

439 Strictly speaking, it is true, but wholly impractical to synthesize these drugs de novo in any quantity.


So can I put you down as wanting to induce mass plant extinction?

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 07:18 PM (zV+kv)

440 and anyone who thinks about the question looks to find particular reasons why American so resisted.

White people.

Posted by: kathysaysso at January 08, 2013 07:22 PM (y5uWA)

441 Strictly speaking, it is true, but wholly impractical to synthesize these drugs de novo in any quantity.

It is now, but only because it's cheaper to use the naturally derived versions.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at January 08, 2013 07:32 PM (HoGA+)

442
So can I put you down as wanting to induce mass plant extinction?

Nope.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at January 08, 2013 07:35 PM (DXlwL)

443 As much as I dislike Piers Morgan I hate truthers even more. Fuck Alex Jones.

Posted by: MorphysGhost at January 08, 2013 07:38 PM (tDieS)

444 It is now, but only because it's cheaper to use the naturally derived versions.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at January 08, 2013 07:32 PM (HoGA+)
No, it's because synthesizing these things de novo takes considerable synthetic skill, expensive reagents and solvents, and lots and lots of steps by highly skilled chemists. It is very much like building your own car, starting with digging up iron ore. Without the semi-synthetic versions, we wouldn't have many drugs. See: taxol. Something like a 30 step synthesis that produced a few milligrams of stuff. Chemists carry out such syntheses for bragging rights and to prove that the structure assigned to the drug is correct.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at January 08, 2013 07:40 PM (DXlwL)

445 Free speech is dead in the US

Can someone get me out of jail?

Posted by: Mohammed film maker at January 08, 2013 07:45 PM (fgbiK)

446 I hate truthers even more. Fuck Alex Jones.


Why must they be evil just because they're wrong? Hating someone over 1 opinion (even if it is a conspiracy theory) is fucked up.


Truthers are no more or less crazy than all the people who think aliens shoved shit up their ass, or believe they can psychically commune with ghosts of the dead. Those people aren't decried as morally evil for having stupid inane views.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 08:02 PM (zV+kv)

447 No, it's because synthesizing these things de novo takes considerable synthetic skill, expensive reagents and solvents, and lots and lots of steps by highly skilled chemists


Not really dude. LSD is harder to synthesize than any of the others mentioned, and that shit usually is synthesized.


Just look at the recent fad of synthesized THC-like drugs and coke-like stimulants, ie bath salts and incense.


The amount of money involved makes needing a highly skilled chemist not much of a problem. No chemist can make as much money doing anything else.


And if you're a skilled chemist, nearly no reagent is prohibitively expensive, if you can't afford it you just make it out of what you can.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 08:10 PM (zV+kv)

448 Furthermore, the reality is if you want to come up with your own process, you need to be a highly skilled chemist.


But if some chemist has already done it once, all you need to do is be able to follow directions closely. No chemistry skill needed, just follow the recipe.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 08:12 PM (zV+kv)

449 One may ask if it's religion, but then, Latin America is very religious…

Protestantism, even in its most watered-down form, is singular and different from Catholicism.

THIS.

We were a British colony with the Protestant work ethic and Adam Smith and the Scots and all kinds of independent-minded trends and tendencies in our DNA. Latin America has none of this.

Spain reconstructed the feudal system in its colonies whereas the British colonists engaged in self-governance. The first "settlers" in Latin America were conquistadores, not farmers. The soldiers were granted vast tracts of land in the Americas in reward for their service to the crown, and Spanish Honor dictates that gentlemen (nobles, soldiers) NOT sully their hands with manual labor.

So naturally, they enslaved the natives to work the enormous haciendas. The peons in the new feudal society were the natives and the children of the native/Spanish pairings. The Spanish had no problem interbreeding with the American natives, thinking that they were "elevating the race" by so doing.

The Catholic Church in Latin America resumed the same role that it had in Spain: maintain the social order. With its monopoly on religion, the Catholics didn't have to really DO anything to keep their flock intact, so the church didn't instill religious principles so much as administered the sacraments and let it go at that.

Religiosity in Latin America is often mere superstition—pray to the Virgin's image to win the lottery, light a candle to El Niño Jesús de Praga so that your boyfriend doesn't get you pregnant. As an LDS missionary in Colombia, I met exactly 5 Catholics who knew what Catholic doctrine even was: the rest were either ignorant or indifferent or both.

As I said, the Church in Latin America has mostly been an administrative entity, not the dispenser of moral instruction. Most of those who are interested in spiritual improvement and maturity have converted to another Christian sect. The Catholics hardly cracked the Bible in the presence of their congregants, so all the Protestants and Mormons had to do was say, "Hey, wanna learn to read the Bible for your own self?" and that was enough to lure a lot of people away.

(I hasten to add that Catholicism in North America is a different beast: it was never an organ of the state and so it didn't get lazy; it has always had to compete with other religions for parishioners and so must offer something more valuable than its mere existence.)

Even so, Latinos did not grow up with the Protestant work ethic: they dream of the day they are rich enough that they don't HAVE to work. (Latinos in the U.S. are often different or they wouldn't be here in the first place.) Class distinctions are severe enough that manual labor is still looked down on. (They're surprised to come here and find that people don't sneer at their menial jobs.) The economies are not designed to reward hard work; you've got to know someone who knows someone to get a good job—your qualifications (and lack thereof) are irrelevant.

So yes, it IS religion that makes the difference, because not all religions are created equal, and not all religiosity is the same.

Posted by: dicentra at January 08, 2013 08:28 PM (VrEQt)

450 Let me point out the 800 pound gorilla in the room you overlooked: Federalism.

The United States has succeeded because of federalism. That is what really makes us different from all the two-bit banana republics of the world. And it is no surprise that the further we move from federalism the greater that tyranny in this nation has become. Forget about the fence across the road and think more about federalism. It isn't important whether or not the homosexual fence is outlawed, but who is doing the outlawing. The federal government has no business even looking at the fence let alone outlawing it.

Posted by: NotCoach at January 08, 2013 08:42 PM (jU7Af)

451 446 entropy,

they undermined the United States while she was at war because they are too pussy to grasp how vulnerable the west really is.

Fuck the truthers they are evil.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 08:47 PM (LRFds)

452 "Those people aren't decried as morally evil for having stupid inane views."

Except that Trutherism, like its ideological kin Holocaust denial, is evil. It isn't nutty but harmless Aunt Katie talking to pixies in her garden, it's allying yourself to an ideology of mass death.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at January 08, 2013 09:01 PM (HoGA+)

453 Jay, come visit the University of Arizona with me and I'll take you to a frat party...and you'll see us heterosexuals can be just as promiscuous as gays. 1 in 4 young women at the U of A has an STI.
Early efforts criminalizing homosexual sex were typically based on biblical statutes, and saying that there is "health concern" misses the point. Would banning all weapons in the US reduce crime? (it sure as hell wouldn't, but pretend you are an anti gun nut who sees Guns as Evil)
Even then it'd be wrong to infringe on a citizens liberty. And if that citizen has a right to an AR-15, he has a right to bang Steve so long as Steve consents.
And lets face it, bullshit homophobic anti-gay campaigns in this country like "Save the Children" completely ignored the "lets reduce STDs" argument. Hell I wonder why the hell people got so ignorant and bent out of shape over Gardasil

Posted by: Danny at January 08, 2013 09:19 PM (TBCMG)

454 And Ace, outstanding post!
Reminds me of an old Bill Whittle post where he defines three things that make America unique (forget what exacty) and he wrote something to the effect of "Sorry folks, it's not God, Guns and Guts. The Saudis have God, the Columbians have guns, and the Russians have guts. You want to live in any of those places?

Posted by: Danny at January 08, 2013 09:21 PM (TBCMG)

455 Very good post. This is to be expected, the left wants to paint all conservatives as being like Alex Jones and being the nut he is he of course falls for this. Instead of calling just about any other conservative onto the program. They could have even picked a celebrity like Tom Selleck, Chuck Norris, hell, even Bruce Willis or Stallone, and they would have gotten a more eloquent argument in favor of the 2nd amendment, but instead they turn over a rock and pick a man who spends half his time promoting 9/11 truth craziness.... I'm actually sort of embarrassed that I agree with Alex Jones on this particular issue. Suicide pills and mind control, wtf was he talking about?

Posted by: Andrew at January 08, 2013 09:46 PM (HS3dy)

456 Even though I may tangentially agree with Jones on some points, this isn't the left. I refuse to gloss over a truly insidious opinion because he occasionally blows the correct notes on the small government trumpet.

I will not countenance a Goddamn truther in our midst. Brother-in-arms to Holocaust denial, trutherism trivializes the murder of 3000 Americans and anyone who promotes, entertains, or accommodates it can go give Satan a hummer.

Posted by: MorphysGhost at January 08, 2013 10:05 PM (tDieS)

457 they undermined the United States while she was at war because they are too pussy to grasp how vulnerable the west really is.


Um... lol neocon. OK... right. Because they are anti war they're undermining the whole of western civilization? Which is about to be destroyed by a couple of fucking goat farmers on a mountain in the middle of Asia?


Fuck the truthers they are evil.


That's exactly what I mean. You're calling them evil because they're incorrect. It's a disagreement about facts, not a moral failing.


I know people who are truthers. They are not evil people, some of them are nice people who are stupid and conspiratorial. They are not fucking evil. You shouldn't call people evil just because you disagree with them. It's unhinged.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 10:11 PM (zV+kv)

458 I will not countenance a Goddamn truther in our midst.


Get over yourself.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 10:13 PM (zV+kv)

459 457 entropy,

The vulnerabilities are endemic to the west, the troofers would rather believe Bush killed 3000 folks than grasp a bunch of pissed off assholes did because if they grasp that we are THAT vulnerable it would involve actually altering your POV on "no half measures"....

they are evil end of story and I am AGAINST the goddamned wars now because I know we already lost this fight in 1979 and accept it.

The left hates us as much as the opfor, and very honestly a good portion of the right thinks they can be the last the gator gets.

better to stop wasting good men and women to NO GAIN.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 10:15 PM (LRFds)

460 The Saudis have God, the Columbians have guns, and the Russians have guts.


The Russians have God, guns and guts.


Even in the Soviet days every peasant in the USSR had a rifle, and these days, Putin is actually socially conservative and quite the defender of the Orthodox church.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 10:17 PM (zV+kv)

461 Okay, entropy, let me spell it out - these evil fucksticks that you know personally are just swell insist that I and everyone else who swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution engaged in a huge conspiracy - and it would have to involve thousands - to murder three thousand people in order to gin up a phoney justification for George Bush to go to war and cause the needless deaths of tens of thousands more service members, Afghans and Iraqis.

Sure, no big deal. Other than it's fucking blood libel. So fuck them and fuck you. Come explain that to my face, chickenshit asshole.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at January 08, 2013 10:20 PM (HoGA+)

462 The vulnerabilities are endemic to the west, the troofers would rather believe Bush killed 3000 folks than grasp a bunch of pissed off assholes did


That doesn't make them evil, it makes them delusional. There is a difference.


because...


Don't strawman them or attribute your own motives. That's exactly what the left does to you when they call you evil for wanting a gun. Because the only reason they can imagine themselves wanting a gun is if they had evil intent. They project and assume everyone else is the same.


The only reason trutherism might make sense to you may be evil motive, but that does not mean that's the reason they believe that. They are not operating on your assumptions.


they are evil end of story


Again, because they disagree with you? Evil over an opinion? They may never hurt anyone, they may go out of their way to help others, hold the door open for strangers, wish nothing but happiness on their neighbors, but fuck 'em they're evil because they have silly viewpoints.


Why is the dude who thinks aliens probed his butt not evil? Why not the guy who thinks Johnson killed JFK?

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 10:23 PM (zV+kv)

463 462 entropy,

I swore an oath to defend the US my wife has multiple combat tours under her belt, our son got to see his mom rocketed back in 2007-2008 on VTC.

The troofer "mind" says that the wife and I are zealous enough in our love of Bush to fake all that or happily help get her there for shits and giggles.

Fuck them all.

I notice that the moose Change kids are not asking Barack Obama why he has not "shown us the troof"....

fuck the anti-semitic motherfuckers.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 10:26 PM (LRFds)

464 insist that I and everyone else who swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution engaged in a huge conspiracy - and it would have to involve thousands - to murder three thousand people



No, there it is again. Just like the left and guns. Don't assume they think like you think, because they don't. Don't assume that their thinking has to even make sense, because it really fucking doesn't.


They're operating on a different (faulty) framework. They are soft headed people with nonsensical views. For a lot of them, it never goes that far because frankly they don't think things through that well. And they don't limit their views to rational restrictions. You say it would take THOUSANDS of people, and you are right. But just because it would take thousands doesn't mean they think it would take thousands. They're obviously not bound by good sense or logic. But that's not a MORAL failing.


So fuck them and fuck you. Come explain that to my face, chickenshit asshole.


See, that's just unhinged. Internet tough guy, eh?

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 10:27 PM (zV+kv)

465 I swore an oath to defend the US my wife has multiple combat tours under her belt, our son got to see his mom rocketed back in 2007-2008 on VTC.


It's not about you. That's the issue. Right of the bat, you're making their beliefs about you. You're interpreting their beliefs through the filter of your own. They do not share your framework or assumptions.


If you evaluate their beliefs based on your assumptions, they look evil. But they do not operate on your assumptions.


Do you think thousands of American people conspired to kill mexicans for political gain? Do you think people who do, are evil?

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 10:37 PM (zV+kv)

466 465 entropy,

it is not about "me" it is about "us".......

the troofers are not fit to spit at.

I'd take the worst non prejudicial discharge bound soldier over ANY troofer as a decent human being.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 11:19 PM (LRFds)

467 Even though the thread is dead, I actually had an on-topic thought I find at least interesting. What might make America different?


Reading about how Golden Dawn neo-nazis are gaining popularity in Greece. They have a parliamentary system. Most of the world does.


Places that didn't have a parliamentary system, but rather a winner-take-all 2-party system?


The US, and... uh... I can think of 1 other, ancient Rome.


They lasted a good few hundred years a Republic, and milked a thousand years of decline as an Empire.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 11:23 PM (zV+kv)

468 460-Let's be fair, the Orthodox Church isn't exactly on board with killing dissidents, something which appears to happen quite a bit under Mr. Putin's rule. And while his Russian Federation has become a tax haven as of late, his foreign policy makes it clear he is anything but an ally of the U.S. The only thing Russia has to recommend for itself is 6 foot tall women named Natayla and Anya...

Posted by: Danny at January 08, 2013 11:24 PM (qMpC0)

469 Danny, I never said Russia was paradise, or awesome, or our ally.


I just pointed out (I think correctly) that Russia is a society that currently has plenty of God, guns, and guts to it's credit. That's not to recommend it for anything. Just comparing.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 11:26 PM (zV+kv)

470 Sven, you're not even talking to me. I mean, you're not really addressing anything I say, you're just repeating yourself.


Does believing the mainstream conservative spin on Fast and Furious (ie, that lots of American government officials conspired to kill Mexicans for political gain) make one evil?

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 11:28 PM (zV+kv)

471 Danny, I'm having trouble trying to articulate this in a pithy manner. in case I was not clear, I was responding to this:


"Sorry folks, it's not God, Guns and Guts. The Saudis have God, the Columbians have guns, and the Russians have guts. You want to live in any of those places?


My point was just that Russia is a place that sucks that has all 3 at once. So if you want to say it's not 'god, guns and guts' that make a country great, Russia nails all 4 criteria. God, guns, guts, and suckitude.

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 11:32 PM (zV+kv)

472 470 entropy,

you constantly drawing false equivalency in defense of addled evil minds is hardly worthy of anything other than reiteration.

Fast and furious is evil cloaked in lies and media supplicant butt thrusting to Team ogabe.

America is okay with the president having Mexicans killed....I am going to be less bothered when Mexicans kill Americans as a result.

Posted by: sven10077 at January 08, 2013 11:36 PM (LRFds)

473 What false equivalency? Seriously, what are you talking about? Mexicans killing Americans... um, ok... what? How does that address anything I said?


How is it false equivalency? Apart from the veracity of the claim, how is one theory of the American government killing people for political objectives different from the other theory of the American government killing people for political objectives?


Because in one case it's fellow Americans and in the other case it's Mexicans? How does that matter in regard to evil?

Posted by: entropy at January 08, 2013 11:42 PM (zV+kv)

474 On legalization-last time I checked conservatives were the party of limited government. The immense resources squandered in the drug war could be put to better use defending our border from the cartels (as a Hispanic, I am rather liberal on immigration, but if Jan Brewer passes a law mandating that cartel members be hung at the neck until dead, I'll buy her book). Legalization will not destroy our society-indeed I only advocate legalization of marijuana at this point. Besides, if the government can make money off of alcohol and cigarettes, why not off weed? Clearly, no one is going to come in here touting the immense medicinal benefits of either. (And for those of you saying red wine is healthy, go to any college party where wine is chugged and examine that for health benefits).

And Entrophy, I feel you. Some of the kindest, most relaxed Marines in my unit are Truthers to a certain extent, and while I see it as a character failing (not to mention an extreme logical failing), I don't think they are evil either. They don't think it through enough to reason that de facto they are serving an evil government. Although all of America has grown up post Watergate, and cynicism of government is now part of the culture. This isn't always bad-one day conservatives will learn to play this to capitalize on Americans natural resentment to government.

Posted by: Danny at January 08, 2013 11:46 PM (qMpC0)

475
Posted by: dicentra at January 08, 2013 08:28 PM (VrEQt)
___
"Hey, wanna learn to read the Bible for your own self?" and that was enough to lure a lot of people away.
It's interesting that you would use a verb that is synonomouswith the word "tempt" whenreferring to a purpose that ostensibly is motivated by concern foran individual's immortal soul.

Have you ever dared venture into an area that is strongly Evangelical? Now THAT mission would take some serious "luring away" power. Do you know which place Evangelicals consider a fertile mission field? Utah state.

Despite LDS and evangelical best efforts Latin America is still predominantly Catholic. It's offensive the way you dismiss their devotion to Christ's Mother. Making candle-burning all about winning the lottery is just as insulting tous as when an LDS member hears jokes about the Mormon church being all about polygamy and magic undergarments.

A friend of mine is LDS, we have had many discussions about our respective religions and I have never heard a fraction of contempt for the Catholic faith that you delivered in one AoS post. We actually emerge from these talks with more respect for each other's religion.
so the church didn't instill religious principles so much as administered the sacraments and let it go at that.

The sacraments are the pillars of the Catholic faith. They are the means by which the grace of Christ is delivered to the recipients. Each sacrament was instituted by Jesus himself.
All those nuns and lay teachers running the classrooms in Latin American schools must just be playing Bingo all day, that's why they don't have time to administer religious principles.

Posted by: kallisto at January 09, 2013 09:26 AM (jm/9g)

476 so ourselves find no value in it. But obviously millions of
other people do find value in it-- are we really acting in a civil
fashion to use political power to essentially make our own preferences
the controlling law which binds everyone?


The Subjective Theory of Value.

It's the basis for understanding economics. It's what leads inexorably to the conclusion that free markets are the only way to increase wealth.

It's the core reason that Marx was wrong. His Labor Theory of Value was the root of his error.

Posted by: Phinn at January 09, 2013 10:46 AM (oFH2D)

477 <i>It's offensive the way you dismiss their devotion to Christ's Mother. Making candle-burning all about winning the lottery</i>

You've misunderstood me. It's the PEOPLE whose devotion is superficial. THEY make candle-burning all about winning the lottery. You can't go house-to-house and talk about religion with people and not pick up on what they think religion is for. I am merely reporting what I observed with my own eyes.

<i>All those nuns and lay teachers running the classrooms in Latin American schools must just be playing Bingo all day, that's why they don't have time to administer religious principles.</i>

I don't know WHAT they're doing, but instilling morals ain't it, because people in Lat. Amer. live horribly sinful lives but don't seem to know it's wrong. I got to experience the rhapsodious gushing of a 14-year-old girl whose father was pimping her out to his skeezy friend: "Oh, it's JUST like we're MARRIED!" We were horrified, but she was utterly unaware that something might be wrong—not even on the level of societal disapproval.

You know how "Catholic Guilt" is a thing up here? It isn't down there. Nobody down there looks to the Church to see how to live morally. It's very sad.

<i>Despite LDS and evangelical best efforts Latin America is still predominantly Catholic. </i>

And the vast majority of them are Catholics by birth, not by conviction. They haven't the faintest idea about Catholic doctrine and only darken the doorway of a church for the sacraments, if then. <i>I see the exact same thing among some Utah Mormons</i>, who just go along because of tradition but haven't absorbed a lick of it.

<i>The sacraments are the pillars of the Catholic faith.</i>

I know what role the sacraments play, but you'll agree that JUST administering the sacraments is not enough. The people must be inspired to follow Christ's example, and from what I saw with my own eyes, the Church in Latin America falls WAY short of it. I saw no evidence of Being Catholic apart from people treating the Saints and the Virgin as Celestial Vending Machines: insert rote prayer, get prize.

<i>I have never heard a fraction of contempt for the Catholic faith that you delivered in one AoS post.</i>

If you or any other devout North-American Catholic were to observe what I did, you'd be contemptuous, too. "WHERE are the pastors?" you'd cry out, seeing so many problems unaddressed and so much ignorance. (I was in the poorer neighborhoods, mind.) You wouldn't interpret portraits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus as evidence of devotion but rather as mere tradition—tradition which they maintain as far as the decorations but not so much in their moral compasses.

You would be angry and outraged, I warrant, because you know what The Church is supposed to do for people, and they apparently don't care.

There is a world of difference between North-American Catholics and the ones down south: the devout Catholics up here use their religion as a moral guide; the devout Catholics down there are mostly superstitious.

I DON'T hold the Catholic Church in contempt—just the Latin American cohort. My dissertation was to be on the 16th-Century Spanish mystics. You can't read Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross without comprehending how much they loved God and his righteousness. I also believe that God raised up John Paul II from his youth to do great and wonderful things, and that he was a willing instrument in God's hand. I think that The Anchoress is one of the most inspiring people on the Internet. I fear not for her soul, nor for the soul of MANY Catholics throughout history.

The original issue, you'll recall, is why the former Iberian colonies are so much worse off than the former British ones. Ace dismissed religion, but I explained why religion is very much a factor—and why. Unfortunately, Latin American Catholicism has not covered itself in glory.

I'm sorry, but there it is. I wish things were different but they're not.

Posted by: dicentra at January 09, 2013 02:19 PM (VrEQt)

478
tsrbike said:
Legitimate question ace,
Under this rubric, why ban heroin? After all, we may find no value in it, but the Junkie totally does.
----------------

Being pro-liberty means being against anything that would set up "tyranny over the mind of man" - as Thomas Jefferson said.You can't be pro-liberty and not be disturbed the legality of hard addictive drugs that cause a human being to involuntarily destroy himself. If hard drugs are to be legalized, a strong societal support network with legislative backing would need to exist to intercept and reign in anyone who is going over the edge before they destroy themselves.
I propose that drug-using communities be given by law the power to self-regulate, thus giving each group the support network they need to keep from turning their use into abuse. Laws requiring rehab if caught merely using would have almost the same effect but would violate the liberty of anyone who was merely a casual user.

Posted by: hoodaticus at January 09, 2013 09:56 PM (v/b7q)






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