Claim: Liberals Lost the Fiscal Cliff Negotiations?

This strikes me as an exercise in pure contrarianism but I suppose it's worth noting.

Those who think that opposing any deal would have somehow created the conditions for Republicans to insist on reinstating all the Bush tax rates after they expired have a far higher opinion of the backbone of Republican leaders than I do. But that’s a prudential debate about how, as the minority party in Washington focused on keeping taxes and spending down, to minimize the harm of a uniquely bad set of circumstances. Maybe Republicans did that, maybe they could have done a little better, but they probably couldn’t have done much better.

But the Democrats could have, and the story of their failure here has not yet gotten the notice it deserves. In the long run, when the dust has settled, I think that will be the real story of the fiscal cliff. For liberals, this was not a moment of danger to be minimized but by far their best opportunity in a generation for increasing tax rates (which is the only fiscal reform they seem to want) and for robbing Republicans of future leverage for spending and entitlement reforms. And it is likely the best one they will encounter for another generation. Many on the left have seemed convinced lately that the politics of taxes had changed dramatically in their favor, and that the opportunity presented by the cliff could result in the kind of surge in revenue that could put off the coming fiscal crunch for years (until, they seem to think, it will just magically go away at some point) and so could save our entitlement programs from the need for reform....

But that hasn’t happened here. This deal is projected to yield $620 billion in revenue over a decade — increasing projected federal revenue by about 1.7 percent over that time. And that’s about it. The Democrats have made the Bush tax rates permanent for 98 percent of the public, which Republicans couldn’t even do when they controlled both houses of Congress and the presidency. They did not get to pick and throw away the low-hanging fruit that could be used in future rate-reducing tax reform (in fact, they retained some “extenders” of tax credits and deductions that could better enable such reform, and the new and more honest CBO baseline that results from this deal eases the way for it), they did not get to claim that they have reformed Medicare without touching its structure, and they now have to move immediately into a debt ceiling fight. Right after a tax-only deal, and just as people start to notice higher payroll taxes, they’re not in a great position to demand more rate increases in that fight, or others to come.

If even under the conditions of the past month — with a very liberal president just re-elected, Republicans in disarray, public opinion on taxes seemingly friendlier to them than it has been in decades, and higher tax rates automatically taking effect — the Democrats can’t get more than a tiny pittance of revenue and no chips to use later, then their basic approach to fiscal issues just won’t work.

Apparently a Democratic priority was getting Republicans to sign on to sham Medicare reform -- "reform" which only consists of the government paying doctors and hospitals less, rather than changing it structurally. Yuval Levin suggests the Democrats wanted that to forestall genuine reform and also to get the Republicans to sign on to the Democrats' favorite sort of reform, which is to say, no reform at all.

Well, the Democrats didn't get that, but I'm not sure that was really the high priority Levin thinks it is.

Some suggest that the Democrats no longer have much leverage in the coming debates over the debt ceiling. They have less leverage, but that's mostly because they already got their top priority. And given that the Republicans surrendered on the debt ceiling last time, I don't see why they'd suddenly have the backbone for a fight now.

Posted by: Ace at 02:08 PM



Comments

1 First

Posted by: Flounder at January 03, 2013 02:08 PM (Kkt/i)

2 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at January 03, 2013 02:10 PM (5DR1j)

3 Higher taxes and no spending cuts. What did they lose?

Posted by: EC at January 03, 2013 02:10 PM (GQ8sn)

4 @2 Seconded

Posted by: Flounder at January 03, 2013 02:10 PM (Kkt/i)

5 Paul Weyrich-1999
I believe that we probably have lost the culture war. That doesn't mean the war is not going to continue, and that it isn't going to be fought on other fronts. But in terms of society in general, we have lost. This is why, even when we win in politics, our victories fail to translate into the kind of policies we believe are important.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:12 PM (wbmaj)

6 BOEHNER WINS! BOEHNER WINS!

America chalks another one up in the loss column.

Posted by: © Sponge at January 03, 2013 02:12 PM (UK9cE)

7
I thought Obamacare was supposed to make medicaid and medicare moot. Those are expected to go away as soon as the medical insurance industry is destroyed.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 03, 2013 02:12 PM (69Mdf)

8 OT - Anyone school me on the AoSHQ Amazon Store. I have a large amount of computer drives and such to order, but they probably are not listed in the AoSHQ Amazon Store. Any way that I can get the credit to HQ for the purchase?

Posted by: Flounder at January 03, 2013 02:13 PM (Kkt/i)

9 Per WeaselZippers:

Death by hammers and clubs far outnumbers deaths by rifle.


STOP!! Hammer control time!!!

Posted by: © Sponge at January 03, 2013 02:13 PM (UK9cE)

10
A victory with 90 percent of your health bar filled isn't a flawless victory.

Posted by: El Kabong at January 03, 2013 02:13 PM (M8skJ)

11 The GOP is dead. SCOAMF has also re-written history so that going forward, any candidate who runs on a platform of cutting taxes and spending will lose because the electorate will believe that that's what caused the problem in the first place.

There really is no way forward.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 03, 2013 02:14 PM (XkWWK)

12 So, we should rejoice we were not pounded in the ass harder?

Posted by: Penfold at January 03, 2013 02:14 PM (Fbt5B)

13 Ah Ace we can win the Debt Ceiling debate and get what we want. All it would take is a miracle and we're due for a miracle. Keep the Faith!

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 03, 2013 02:14 PM (79ueO)

14 We are like people trying to be mirthful at a viewing.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:14 PM (wbmaj)

15 "The Democrats have made the Bush tax rates permanent for 98 percent of the public, which Republicans couldn’t even do when they controlled both houses of Congress and the presidency. "

Is there any way that 98% figure can be guaranteed?

I can't find it now but there are reports that higher taxes are in order for those under the $450k level. BoBamacare has a host of taxes as well, so this 98% thing is smelling suspiciously like bovine fecal matter.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 03, 2013 02:14 PM (KDq5l)

16 9 STOP!! Hammer control time!!!
Posted by: © Sponge at January 03, 2013 02:13 PM (UK9cE)


Can't touch this!

Posted by: M.C Hammer at January 03, 2013 02:14 PM (XkWWK)

17 The false premise here is that the Democrats want to raise tax rates just for the sake of raising tax rates. In reality, Democrats got almost exactly what they wanted: more redistribution. Why else have a graduated income tax? Why is my income somehow less valuable (and therefore requires higher taxes) just because I make more money than someone else?

Redistribution.

And they achieved that. On top of it, the best chance we were going to have for entitlement reform was here. All we had to do was nothing and we would have achieved a goal we've been pursing for at least the last 20 years- cutting Medicare and Social Security. Indeed, for the first time in my lifetime (at least) there would have been real, significant cuts to Government Spending.

They prevented that.

No, this is a complete win for the Democrats.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at January 03, 2013 02:14 PM (5DR1j)

18
If it looks like a loss,

and feels like a loss,

and quacks like a loss...

Posted by: Soothsayer at January 03, 2013 02:14 PM (jUytm)

19 Ok you lost,. why do I feel dirty and used.

Posted by: Jean at January 03, 2013 02:15 PM (TdK8A)

20 Ah ha! The hammer claws.

Posted by: Flounder at January 03, 2013 02:15 PM (Kkt/i)

21 >>>12
So, we should rejoice we were not pounded in the ass harder?

Hey, you only got gang-raped by 3 dudes in the prison shower. The other 2 keeping watch didn't get a turn.

You're welcome.

Posted by: El Kabong at January 03, 2013 02:15 PM (M8skJ)

22 OT - Anyone school me on the AoSHQ Amazon Store. I
have a large amount of computer drives and such to order, but they
probably are not listed in the AoSHQ Amazon Store. Any way that I can
get the credit to HQ for the purchase?


Posted by: Flounder at January 03, 2013 02:13 PM (Kkt/i)


Yeah, I'm looking for 75 Watt incandescents since they've successfully banned those.

Posted by: © Sponge at January 03, 2013 02:15 PM (UK9cE)

23
this Yuval reminds me of Hugh Hewitt's Shit Sandwich

Posted by: Soothsayer at January 03, 2013 02:15 PM (jUytm)

24 One bipartisan group estimates the deal will generate between three and four trillion more in debt. Isn't that like building a high-dive board on top of the fiscal cliff, to make it just that much higher for our eventual swan dive into the canyon?

Posted by: Jordan at January 03, 2013 02:15 PM (Hz1zc)

25 Some suggest that the Democrats no longer have much leverage in the coming debates over the debt ceiling.

Who cares about the next skirmish... What do they do without "TAX THE RICH!" in their platform? They just spent their single most potent weapon from the 2012 campaign.

Posted by: CJ at January 03, 2013 02:16 PM (9KqcB)

26 "The Democrats have made the Bush tax rates permanent for 98 percent of the public, which Republicans couldn’t even do when they controlled both houses of Congress and the presidency. "

Is there any way that 98% figure can be guaranteed?

Nope. It's only permanent until it is not longer permanent.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 03, 2013 02:16 PM (79ueO)

27 We lost the cake.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:17 PM (fpSpD)

28 Meh. I'm not too torn up over these budget wins/losses. This kind of thing is moving deck chairs around. I'm looking into some purchases of heavy metals (gold, silver, steel, aluminum, lead, lead, lead) in the meantime. The truth is we won't ever address problems before they become full blown crises because we have a infantile, shortsighted, greedy society more worried about what Kim Kardashian is going to name her baby.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 03, 2013 02:17 PM (t06LC)

29 Also, taxes are actually going up on at least 93% of all Americans. SS Withholding is going up by ~50% (2 full points).

That's a tax increase on "the middle class."

Don't think the Democrats won't do everything they can to lay that one at the Republicans' doorstep.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at January 03, 2013 02:17 PM (5DR1j)

30 Posted by: Jordan at January 03, 2013 02:15 PM (Hz1zc)

Hi Jordan. Is the Texas Legislature still in session?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 03, 2013 02:17 PM (KDq5l)

31 My first paycheck came in and my taxes went up over 1200 a year.

Fuck Boner and Obama with a pineapple up the ass sideways. Boner is single handedly destroying any reason to vote republican and for the Republican party.

Posted by: Mr Pink at January 03, 2013 02:17 PM (EitjN)

32 the idea is to allow the RINOs to claim a victory in order to keep the Tea Pot from boiling over again. Remember, Boenher and McConnell showed couraGe with a capital G.

Posted by: mallfly at January 03, 2013 02:17 PM (bJm7W)

33 Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 03, 2013 02:14 PM (KDq5l)

Between 250k and 450k there is loss of some deductions, so yes a tax increase.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 03, 2013 02:18 PM (69Mdf)

34 Was this written by the same clowns who said Roberts did us a favor by upholding Obamacare by playing 4D advanced chess or some shit?

The crying Boner will now move to COMPROMISE with Obama on Amnesty and on stripping the second amendment away.

Posted by: Dan at January 03, 2013 02:18 PM (/7gN/)

35 One bipartisan group estimates the deal will
generate between three and four trillion more in debt. Isn't that like
building a high-dive board on top of the fiscal cliff, to make it just
that much higher for our eventual swan dive into the canyon?

Posted by: Jordan at January 03, 2013 02:15 PM (Hz1zc)


Welcome to the party, pal.

You voted for it.

Posted by: © Sponge at January 03, 2013 02:18 PM (UK9cE)

36 I suspect the Dems will go for an abolishment of the debt ceiling.

Why not? The GOP won't do a shutdown.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at January 03, 2013 02:18 PM (v6YdM)

37 Yes, go with that theory,

Posted by: chip dillard at January 03, 2013 02:18 PM (Jsiw/)

38 OT - Anyone school me on the AoSHQ Amazon Store. I

have a large amount of computer drives and such to order, but they

probably are not listed in the AoSHQ Amazon Store. Any way that I can

get the credit to HQ for the purchase?




Posted by: Flounder at January 03, 2013 02:13 PM (Kkt/i)


I think as long as you go through the link on the main page here, any category you search will give ace credit.

Posted by: Tami at January 03, 2013 02:19 PM (X6akg)

39 And Custer won at Little Big Horn.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:20 PM (wbmaj)

40 I thought Joe Isuzu was locked in a rest home..........

Posted by: owlpellets at January 03, 2013 02:20 PM (dmEoV)

41 Can someone explain to me what the "leverage" is for both sides? I don't get how anyone can have any leverage when both sides act on ideological grounds.

Posted by: Marmo at January 03, 2013 02:21 PM (QW+AD)

42 "All politics is local"--hence WA Rs voting for fiscal cliff deal to keep WA sales tax deduction. It plays well in the home districts.

GOP needs to "nationalize" the issues like '94

Posted by: Far Post at January 03, 2013 02:21 PM (V3pff)

43
"The GOP is dead."



If only that were true. Then we could start moving in the right direction.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 03, 2013 02:21 PM (1Y+hH)

44 Any more victories like that...

Posted by: Some Ancient Greek Dude at January 03, 2013 02:21 PM (5DR1j)

45 They should use the term "indefinite" instead of "permanent" tax rates. This is a victory in that for most taxpayers, the Bush tax cut rates are now the law of the land until the law of the land is changed. That was not true before. They were the law of the land until 2010, then 2011, then 2012, and upon expiration we all went back to the Clinton tax rates. The only way tax rates can be increased now is for laws to actually get passed.

Posted by: chrisnotrock at January 03, 2013 02:21 PM (dX5s2)

46 Joe Isuzu for Speaker!

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:21 PM (fpSpD)

47 Who is Yuval Levin and why is he whistling in the Republican graveyard.


They got tax increases and no spending cuts. He is FOS.

Posted by: Vic at January 03, 2013 02:23 PM (53z96)

48 Fuck this....my paycheck is now 145.34 lighter a month.

Fuckjngnsksksjzm

Posted by: Mr Pink at January 03, 2013 02:23 PM (EitjN)

49 Viewing is from 7 to 9. It's almost 9.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:23 PM (wbmaj)

50 The indians didn't kill all of our horses, so it was a victory for the US Army!

Posted by: Army Spokesman, standing on Little Bighorn at January 03, 2013 02:23 PM (RD7QR)

51 You will be famous, they said.

Posted by: The Light Brigade at January 03, 2013 02:23 PM (KDq5l)

52 This is all so depressing.

Someone should post something not depressing.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at January 03, 2013 02:23 PM (5DR1j)

53 Anna.......He's already Pres...

Posted by: owlpellets at January 03, 2013 02:23 PM (dmEoV)

54
Posted by: CJ at January 03, 2013 02:16 PM (9KqcB)


Obastard has already said after the deal that "the rich still aren't paying their fair share".

He will continue with the class warfare until the middle class is paying alot more, because that is where the money is.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 03, 2013 02:23 PM (69Mdf)

55 43
"The GOP is dead."

If only that were true. Then we could start moving in the right direction.
Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 03, 2013 02:21 PM (1Y+hH)


I should have said it's un-dead.

Posted by: M.C Hammer at January 03, 2013 02:24 PM (XkWWK)

56 OT, apropos Drew's opening comments on the other thread. "Crazy Michele Bachmann". Thanks, Drew, thanks a lot. Not even a fan of hers, but with the attitude you just displayed, we'll never be more than a rabble. Never hear the Democrats pull that kind of shit. And they won.

Posted by: tubal at January 03, 2013 02:25 PM (BoE3Z)

57
"Someone should post something not depressing."



___ ____ ___ ___


Chavez is dead and Castro doesn't feel so good himself.



that's all I got

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 03, 2013 02:25 PM (1Y+hH)

58 50
But we killed their ponies (and children) on the banks of the Washita River.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:25 PM (wbmaj)

59 The only people who lost anything over the fiscal cliff negotiations are the American people, not counting the Free Shit Army. All of our "Betters" on Capitol Hill did just fine.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 03, 2013 02:25 PM (4df7R)

60 Off rapper sock!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 03, 2013 02:25 PM (XkWWK)

61 Any way that I can get the credit to HQ for the purchase?


Posted by: Flounder at January 03, 2013 02:13 PM (Kkt/i)


It doesn't matter if it is in the "AOS store" or not, as long as you access Amazon through the AOS link Ace will get credit for any shopping at Amazon.

Posted by: Vic at January 03, 2013 02:25 PM (53z96)

62 The SS tax reduction was always going to be temporary, which is why Obama didn'tr fight to keep it. The one place where the math is really starting to scare people is in Social Security. Obamaand the Dems do NOT want to be remembered as the President/party that bankrupted Social Security. So that's a separate argument from what happened with the income/cap gains/estate tax rates. I'm getting pretty tired of conservatives wringing their hands that Republ;icans are gping to get tagged with this "tax increase." They won't. And we shouldn't be bitching about this "tax increase" on ourselves, either. Our SS tax should never have been cut in the first place. If you spent that small amount of money or counted on having it into the future, you were stupid.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 02:25 PM (NYnoe)

63 Why is it so hard for people to understand that this did not increase tax rates? Tax rates were BY LAW increasing to pre-Bush tax cut levels. That was the law of the land. Do nothing, and that is what happens. This law lowered taxes for almost everyone to what they otherwise would have been if no law had been passed.

Again, why is that so hard to understand, and why is it so hard to understand that this put Republicans in a bad negotiating position.

Posted by: chrisnotrock at January 03, 2013 02:26 PM (dX5s2)

64 50
Viewing is over. Burial at 10 tomorrow. Family only.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:26 PM (wbmaj)

65 About the only two things I've heard that the Republicans "won" in the negotiations are making the Bush tax cuts below $400K in income permanent as well as permanently fixing the AMT to adjust for inflation instead of requiring a yearly patch.

It takes those issues off the table but sure as fuck doesn't address any of the spending issues that got us into this mess.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 03, 2013 02:26 PM (e0xKF)

66 Huey Long is alive and well and inhabiting the body of the SCOAMT.

Posted by: RamonAllones at January 03, 2013 02:27 PM (3lLli)

67 Obama and Reid let their hostages go. They can no longer threaten the Middle Class with higher tax rates or threaten the GOP with the blame.

The House Republicans are in a stronger position now.

the problem is that the House GOP will likely screw that up royally.

Posted by: The Political Hat at January 03, 2013 02:27 PM (Vk2pI)

68 "Republicans"! Bwahahahaha GOP-toothed useless twaddle-sucker monkey vomit same-as-Dems One Party Uber Alles [dot com, morons]

/uterus cannon, wondering how long I can keep this up

Posted by: Libertrollian at January 03, 2013 02:27 PM (3ZtZW)

69 They got tax increases and no spending cuts. He is FOS.
Posted by: Vic at January 03, 2013 02:23 PM (53z96)


I suspect it's a desperate attempt to keep the few remaining conservatives from committing mass suicide.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 03, 2013 02:27 PM (4df7R)

70 "Many on the left have seemed convinced lately that the politics of taxes had changed dramatically in their favor, and that the opportunity presented by the cliff could result in the kind of surge in revenue that could put off the coming fiscal crunch for years"
-
No one could be that stupid. What the liberals want is the same thing that half of the republicans want - no change in the federal largesse, coupled with borrowing and taxes on the evil rich.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at January 03, 2013 02:27 PM (KwMW2)

71 66 Huey Long is alive and well and inhabiting the body of the SCOAMT.

---

My beloved LSU looked like crap the other night... why doesn't someone just shoot me?

Posted by: Huey Long at January 03, 2013 02:27 PM (e0xKF)

72
what we need is a good backdrop of props

Posted by: Soothsayer at January 03, 2013 02:27 PM (jUytm)

73 Boehner claims moral victory in telling Harry Reid to f**k off.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:28 PM (wbmaj)

74 @65

And truthfully, we're not. The only way we might have addressed spending issues is if Romney won in a landslide. 54% of our countrymen are assholes and said no dice.
We won't really address these major issues until they become crisis on their own right.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 03, 2013 02:28 PM (t06LC)

75
picture this:

Boehner in front of a podium.

Standing behind him are twelve Oompa Loompas.

Posted by: Soothsayer at January 03, 2013 02:29 PM (jUytm)

76 /uterus cannon, wondering how long I can keep this up

Posted by: Libertrollian


Needs more unearned smugness.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 03, 2013 02:29 PM (KDq5l)

77 73
Boehner claims moral victory in telling Harry Reid to f**k off.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:28 PM (wbmaj)

It's no big deal for Harry, his wife says that every night.

Posted by: Army Spokesman, standing on Little Bighorn at January 03, 2013 02:29 PM (RD7QR)

78 Also, anyone who thinks this rate increase will actually produce anywhere near $600 billion in new revenue in the next 10 years is an idiot, the only way that will happen is if economic growth suddenly perks up to 5%+ a year, which it won't.

So in a year we will have concrete proof that raising tax rates only on the top bracket does not produce much new revenue. Let the Democrats keep running on this, they will just look stupider and stupider.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 02:29 PM (NYnoe)

79 For AllenG, a repost. Olivia Munn in a maids outfit and a giant pie.
http://youtu.be/ed1Ucnvn08s

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:29 PM (fpSpD)

80 Mr. Pink, look at it this way. a week without food we will be svelte in no time

Posted by: ette at January 03, 2013 02:30 PM (nqBYe)

81 >>>And given that the Republicans surrendered on the debt ceiling last
time, I don't see why they'd suddenly have the backbone for a fight now.

The new Republican Flag. A white elephant, in a blizzard, eating Altoids.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at January 03, 2013 02:30 PM (0q2P7)

82 75
picture this:

Boehner in front of a podium.

Standing behind him are twelve Oompa Loompas.

---

I better be getting paid per appearance on-screen this time and NOT for one acting job then being cloned in the computer a few hundred times.

Cheap fucking Tim Burton...

Posted by: Deep Roy at January 03, 2013 02:30 PM (e0xKF)

83 62

isn't there an argument to be made that it's good for a current middle-class tax cut and we could attempt (one of these days anyway) to make up the money from other sources

i'll admit i haven't really followed the discussion there, kinda got lost on the focus on income taxes.

Posted by: JDP at January 03, 2013 02:30 PM (60GaT)

84 Cheese-Whiz eating surrender monkeys we are.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at January 03, 2013 02:30 PM (b1VIZ)

85 79
For AllenG, a repost. Olivia Munn in a maids outfit and a giant pie.
http://youtu.be/ed1Ucnvn08s


Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:29 PM (fpSpD)

[Perks up] What kind of pie?

Posted by: joncelli at January 03, 2013 02:30 PM (RD7QR)

86 Mr. Pink, Already Have insurance i hope?

Posted by: ette at January 03, 2013 02:31 PM (nqBYe)

87 Olivia Munn in a maids outfit and a giant pie.

That is not depressing.

MOAR PLEZ

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at January 03, 2013 02:31 PM (5DR1j)

88 Large permanent tax cuts are made with a deal that would have been jumped at when the Bush cuts were initially proposed. Liberalslose and declare victory. Conservatives win and declare defeat. Sure therewere no spending cuts and there was actual spending increases, but that can all be solved next month by doing nothing. Nothing on the debt ceiling, nothing on the continueing resolution until the dems agree to huge cuts to pre-stimulus levels and the permanent reinstatement of the plus $450 K and cap gainsrates. The conservatives have won if they want it. Now get out there and grab defeat from the jaws of victory.

Posted by: Dirks Strewn at January 03, 2013 02:31 PM (VLifP)

89 Sooth, a backdrop to the fiscal talks>

throwing a child over the cliff.

Posted by: ette at January 03, 2013 02:31 PM (nqBYe)

90 That book Debt of Honor, by Tom Clancy? I love a happy ending.

Posted by: USS Diversity at January 03, 2013 02:32 PM (MPjT8)

91 >>>Needs more unearned smugness.

Says you.
/snort

Posted by: Libertrollian at January 03, 2013 02:32 PM (3ZtZW)

92 sooth, ooor, thowing children into a volcano?

Posted by: ette at January 03, 2013 02:32 PM (nqBYe)

93 Those are exactly the points I made the other morning, for which I got a lot of crap.

It was a really crappy situation the GOP was in. There were 2 paths. Let it all expire, or make a deal. The GOP had almost no leverage.

I think they did pretty damned well, considering. And Barky got his Pyrrhic victory of a lousy $60 Billion in new revenues.. a pittance.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 03, 2013 02:32 PM (f9c2L)

94 That book Debt of Honor, by Tom Clancy? I love a happy ending.
Posted by: USS Diversity at January 03, 2013 02:32 PM (MPjT



I swear by the insanity of cthulhu I was reading it last night in order to cheer myself up.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 03, 2013 02:33 PM (VtjlW)

95 Boehner = paste catcher

Posted by: Libertrollian at January 03, 2013 02:33 PM (3ZtZW)

96 77
Boehner should have done ait on the House floor-right after accusing Reid of not paying income taxes for the last ten years.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:33 PM (wbmaj)

97 Or children grubbing for foods in the streets , year 2020?

Posted by: ette at January 03, 2013 02:33 PM (nqBYe)

98 Hi my name is John Boehner and i'm a negotiator.

Posted by: negotiator's anonymous at January 03, 2013 02:33 PM (sofSX)

99 OT, but should we open a betting pool on whether Barack "Huey Long" Obama attends the funeral (may it be soon) of Hugo "Huey Long" Chavez?

I mean, the mask's well and truly off now, so what should stop him?

Posted by: RamonAllones at January 03, 2013 02:33 PM (3lLli)

100
I think they did pretty damned well, considering. And Barky got his
Pyrrhic victory of a lousy $60 Billion in new revenues.. a pittance.


Err... you do realize we're all mocking and deriding this loser, too, right?

And I think you're wrong about who won a Pyrrhic victory.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at January 03, 2013 02:34 PM (5DR1j)

101 #70 Actually, all Democrats wanted was to force Republicans to vote for higher taxes and violate the Grover Norquist Pledge, which they have convinced themselves is the Root of All Evil In America. And they didn't even get that. Norquist said the vote wasn't a violation of the pledge, and all the Tea Partry conservatives were able to vote against it anyway.

So they failed in making Norquist the new bogeyman and making Republicans cross him, they got less than half the new revenue they wanted and not nearly enough to justify any new spending they want to do, and Obama didn't get what he demanded on the debt ceiling.

Sounds like a whole lotta FAIL by the Democrats to me.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 02:34 PM (qE3AR)

102 That book Debt of Honor, by Tom Clancy? I love a happy ending.

I love that book.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 03, 2013 02:34 PM (l86i3)

Posted by: ette at January 03, 2013 02:34 PM (nqBYe)

104 "So what can Johnny Reb do on two wheels?"

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:35 PM (fpSpD)

105 97 Or children grubbing for foods in the streets , year 2020?
Posted by: ette at January 03, 2013 02:33 PM (nqBYe)

Nah, the states won't be "United" by that point. Think of what happened to the Soviet Union when the money spigot went dry.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 03, 2013 02:35 PM (t06LC)

106 There really is no way forward.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at January 03, 2013 02:14 PM (XkWWK)

It's kinda toasty, but there is a way.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at January 03, 2013 02:35 PM (zpqa2)

107 Leave it to Anna Puma to save the day. I needed something good.

Btw, for AP, AllenG and all the rest of you Rons and Ettes so inclined...Olivia Munn eats a hot dog.


http://youtu.be/9kPT7vME6qs

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 03, 2013 02:35 PM (IvVLN)

108

Jobs report tomorrow?

ADP is reporting over 200K jobs added in December.

Posted by: Soothsayer at January 03, 2013 02:35 PM (jUytm)

109 OT, but should we open a betting pool on whether Barack "Huey Long"
Obama attends the funeral (may it be soon) of Hugo "Huey Long" Chavez?


I'm sure he'll be invited to speak.

Over-under on the number of times he uses the word "I"?

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 03, 2013 02:35 PM (ZKzrr)

110 This just in: we won at Midway!

Posted by: The Japanese at January 03, 2013 02:36 PM (v9Cj5)

111 Glad people like that video. Perhaps Maid Cafe repost next?

http://youtu.be/EqOW_87_gNk

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:36 PM (fpSpD)

112 I'm sure he'll be invited to speak.

Over-under on the number of times he uses the word "I"?



"I was only 21 when Hugo Chavez nationalized his first industry!"

Posted by: EC at January 03, 2013 02:36 PM (GQ8sn)

113 99 OT, but should we open a betting pool on whether Barack "Huey Long" Obama attends the funeral (may it be soon) of Hugo "Huey Long" Chavez?

I mean, the mask's well and truly off now, so what should stop him?

---

Venezuela accepting an offer of Russian air traffic controllers from Smolensk to handle all the incoming dignitaries.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 03, 2013 02:37 PM (e0xKF)

114 Btw, for AP, AllenG and all the rest of you Rons and Ettes so inclined...Olivia Munn eats a hot dog.


Just for that, I will move the over/under to five.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 03, 2013 02:37 PM (VtjlW)

115 For us Southern boys, the correct quote is


104 "So what can can't Johnny Reb do on two wheels?"

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:35 PM (fpSpD)

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 03, 2013 02:37 PM (IvVLN)

116 Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:35 PM (fpSpD)

From the last thread. AWG-9. But I was an AT, not an AQ. I did Com, Nav, ECM, DECM, TACAN, AFF and lots of safety wiring and black box swapping. Along with Cannon plug removal and replacement, chasing wires etc.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 03, 2013 02:37 PM (l86i3)

117 Liberals are children. If they don't get their way 100% of the time they have a tantrum.

Obama only got 99.9% of what he wanted.

Begin tantrum....

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 02:37 PM (HDgX3)

118 Nah, the states won't be "United" by that point. Think of what happened to the Soviet Union when the money spigot went dry.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 03, 2013 02:35 PM (t06LC)

Although it might come to that, i guess one could hope for it as the best scenario.now if only i could afford a cave in a red state.

Posted by: ette at January 03, 2013 02:37 PM (nqBYe)

119 All it would take is a miracle and we're due for a miracle.

The thing about miracles is that you need to be prepared to take advantage of them. If there were a tax miracle tomorrow, or a social security miracle, or --add-your-own-miracle-here, is the Republican leadership prepared with legislation to introduce?

“I sent you a fiscal cliff, I sent you a debt ceiling, I sent you a credit downgrade. What were you waiting for?”

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at January 03, 2013 02:37 PM (QF8uk)

120 >>>I'm sure he'll be invited to speak.

He doesn't speak Venezuelan.

Posted by: Libertrollian at January 03, 2013 02:38 PM (3ZtZW)

121 Olivia Munn eats a hot dog.


Obviously she needs to work on her gag reflex.

Maybe I can help...

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at January 03, 2013 02:38 PM (5DR1j)

122 Paul Ryan: Gee, Wally, you told me we had a chance to win. I shoulda listened to Eddie. He said you were full a s**t.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:38 PM (wbmaj)

123 And it's kinda sorta funny to find out today that Herry Reid threw Obama's last deal in the fire because it had the chained CPI in it and he didn't want any proof that that was ever on the table. These dinosaur Democrats will go to their graves and take their party with them, defending every last corner of Social Security while the economy andthe rest of the government go up in flames and our credit rating goes to BBB.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 02:38 PM (qE3AR)

124 120 >>>I'm sure he'll be invited to speak.

He doesn't speak Venezuelan.

---

He knows enough to be able to tell Colombia to FARC off.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 03, 2013 02:38 PM (e0xKF)

125
I was sent here to do something...

not to be something.

Or as i like to call it-

pulling down your pants, bending over and taking it up the squeaker while crying bitterly.

Posted by: John Boehner at January 03, 2013 02:39 PM (UgFxe)

126
ADP is reporting over 200K jobs added in December


Clerks added for retail during Christmas shopping.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at January 03, 2013 02:39 PM (b1VIZ)

127 If even under the conditions of the past month — with a very liberal president just re-elected,

______________


HUH? The MFM told me Obama is a center right candidate, just to the left of Ronald Reagan.

Now he's a very liberal president? My oh my how quickly the meme changes.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 02:39 PM (HDgX3)

128
67Obama and Reid let their hostages go. They can no longer threaten the Middle Class with higher tax rates or threaten the GOP with the blame.

Yep.
$1 Trillion in Obamacare taxes will be kicking in now.

This will be felt by the Middle Class, more than the 1%-ers.

Let's give it a few months.
As gas prices continue to go up...as well as all other consumer prices...and people will have less in their paychecks to buy anything with...those people will be looking for someone to blame.

All we should say is...."The Dems Won. This is what they wanted."

Posted by: wheatie at January 03, 2013 02:39 PM (K4wCe)

129
I've seen some folks asking for a funny post. From the last thread, here's the funniest one I've seen all day:



You far righties realize how irrelevant you are yet?

Come back to reality and let's do the hard work of fighting the upcoming debt limit talks. Stop listening to the loons.Posted by: sanity at January 03, 2013 01:53 PM (RVjIg)

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 03, 2013 02:39 PM (1Y+hH)

130 @107

If only she used mayo instead of mustard

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 03, 2013 02:40 PM (t06LC)

131 So.. Allen G .. tell me. You seriously think we coulda got a better deal?

How? What was the GOP leverage?

(I'm talking only about taxes here.. there was no time for spending talks - we'll have those soon)

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 03, 2013 02:40 PM (f9c2L)

132 opportunity presented by the cliff could result in the kind of surge in
revenue that could put off the coming fiscal crunch for years


Clinton era good times are coming man. Party like its 1999.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 03, 2013 02:40 PM (hc3eM)

133 considering Obama and the dems would have preferred going back to the Clinton rates for everyone, I agree with the article.

the truth is raising taxes is an electoral loser. Obama and the dems were afraid to merely let the Bush tax cuts expire in 2010 and again this week. now they have no expiration date. they could only get Clinton rates on the top earners. Obamacare itself goes to great lengths to hide its tax hikes.

Posted by: #6 at January 03, 2013 02:40 PM (KHo8t)

134 this Yuval reminds me of Hugh Hewitt's Shit Sandwich

Posted by: Soothsayer at January 03, 2013 02:15 PM (jUytm)


Speaking of Hewitt, is he fluffing Willard for a 2016 run?

Posted by: Captain Hate (dagny 2013 return tour?) at January 03, 2013 02:40 PM (OW/Yj)

135 I am indifferent. It's all going to burn.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 03, 2013 02:40 PM (evdj2)

136 Considering the leverage they had with the Middle Class tax rates, the Democrats could have passed in the Senate much more of what they wanted.

For some inexplicable reason, they toned it down. they caved. Why they did this in unexplained, and it is very, very concerning.

Posted by: The Political Hat at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (Vk2pI)

137 Liberals don't care about deficits or economic growth. They want to punish evil rich (mostly white) people. To sane people, someone making $250K a year isn't rich. To the Barista who lives with 3 roommates and bikes to his job, $50K is rich. And so the fact that evil rich (mostly white) people making $50K a year weren't **PUNISHED** by Obama means he caved to the even more evil (mostly white) Republicans.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (HDgX3)

138
Clerks added for retail during Christmas shopping.

I speaky no martian.

Posted by: low info voter at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (jUytm)

139 What was the GOP leverage?

Everybody who pays them hates to do their taxes. Even the Treasury Secretary can’t understand them.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (QF8uk)

140 "Speaking of Hewitt, is he fluffing Willard for a 2016 run?"

no that ship has sailed. he's actually been pretty harsh on the house GOP

Posted by: AuthorLMendez, El Patron at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (yAor6)

141 Ah the F-14A/B. I hear Iran is looking for technicians....

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (fpSpD)

142 >>>All it would take is a miracle and we're due for a miracle.

Pfft. Maybe the GOP ought to adopt that as their motto - oh, wait, praying is doing something.

Posted by: Libertrollian at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (3ZtZW)

143 The Bush tax cuts for the middle class were made permanent, so that's certainly something of a victory.

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (Tt6ky)

144 Just for that, I will move the over/under to five.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 03, 2013 02:37 PM (VtjlW)



I......you.....grrrrr.........

*sigh*



Thank you.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 03, 2013 02:42 PM (IvVLN)

145 #117 Seriously? How do you figure Obama got 99% of what he wanted? He wanted a rate increase for everyone making over $250k, no AMT fix, and a capitulation on the debt ceiling from Congress. And he wanted Republican votes to make that all happen. He got less than half the new revenue he wanted, and nothing else. And the tax rate increase was approved by everyone in his party but less than half of Republicans, so if and when it fucks up the economy and fails to produce any new revenue, he and the Democrats own it.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 02:42 PM (NYnoe)

146 139 What was the GOP leverage?

Everybody who pays them hates to do their taxes. Even the Treasury Secretary can’t understand them.

---

There's a difference between "can't understand them" and "got caught in a lie and played the 'I'm a fucking idiot' card".

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at January 03, 2013 02:42 PM (e0xKF)

147 Biggest farce ever: the media silence -- and the Democrat inclusion into the fiscal cliff bill - -on the shit canning of the CLASS ACT of Obamacare. "We have to sign it to find out what is in it" said head crap weasel and bat shit crazy Pelosi.Yet, now behind closed doors, and with a silent media, not a word is mentioned about this. The Repbus should have made them eat the Class ACT and made it very public about how much it was going to cost. Furhter: C. Schumer and other Dems trying to do away w/ the 2% tax on medical device co.s. BUT, but, but..... O-care is the greatest thing ever, like drinking KoolAid at a Rev. Jones get together.

Posted by: john b at January 03, 2013 02:42 PM (b6of5)

148 From moral majority to ambivalent minority. We are on one rudderless ship.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at January 03, 2013 02:42 PM (wbmaj)

149 Any way that I can get the credit to HQ for the purchase?

Use the drop down menus on the right side of the screen to choose a category of purchase -- the identifying 'Ace' url will follow along. Keep an eye on the url box to make sure. I wish the Ace link just dropped at a main menu without extraneous stuff -- but with his identifying Amazon ID -- but it falls on deaf ears.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at January 03, 2013 02:43 PM (feFL6)

150 There is no reason to vote for me now.

Thanks Boner

Posted by: Mr Pink at January 03, 2013 02:43 PM (EitjN)

151 Obviously she needs to work on her gag reflex.

Maybe I can help...

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at January 03, 2013 02:38 PM (5DR1j)



With what?


Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 03, 2013 02:43 PM (IvVLN)

152 (I'm talking only about taxes here.. there was no time for spending talks - we'll have those soon)
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 03, 2013 02:40 PM (f9c2L)


With all due respect, CTJ, I find it endearing that you think spending talks will ever be on the table.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 03, 2013 02:43 PM (4df7R)

153 143
The Bush tax cuts for the middle class were made permanent, so that's certainly something of a victory.


Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (Tt6ky)
Well, "permanent", that's a nuanced word, in Washington.

Posted by: tubal at January 03, 2013 02:43 PM (BoE3Z)

154 >>>This strikes me as an exercise in pure contrarianism but I suppose it's worth noting.

Liberals need anger to continue their battles. Otherwise their base just smokes out and eats doritos. There must always be demons standing in the way of social progress. They must always be losing.

Do you not see it. Inundated with trolls, spewing bile and hate, totally immune to the very idea that they had won.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at January 03, 2013 02:43 PM (0q2P7)

155 The Bush tax cuts for the middle class were made permanent, so that's certainly something of a victory.

No.

The act of extending them was made permanent, meaning they don't have to come back after 5 or 10 years to have the fight again. Congress can raise the rates again if they want to.

Posted by: EC at January 03, 2013 02:43 PM (GQ8sn)

156 Obamacare itself goes to great lengths to hide its tax hikes.

But they can't hide the shit people WON'T be buying cuz they got less money. Consumer spending will suffer in direct proportion.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 03, 2013 02:43 PM (hc3eM)

157 Ah the F-14A/B. I hear Iran is looking for technicians....
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (fpSpD)

Actually we had block 100s and 125s. The deltas came out just after I left. Do you know if they ever got the digital package?

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 03, 2013 02:44 PM (l86i3)

158 Look on the bright side - the debt ceiling debate is coming up, and you know what that means:

Another condescending (while being totally fucking wrong) post from DrewM about how we must raise the debt ceiling because A). This Is Not The Hill To Die On, B). We're Keeping Our Powder Dry For The Real Fight, which is the next mid-term elections in 2014, and C). You're all too simple to appreciate the backroom machinations that are the way Things Get Done in Congress. You don't appreciate, nay, venerate The Process.

God save us from the hapless politifag fanboys that got us into this fucking mess.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 03, 2013 02:44 PM (QVmdM)

159 he's actually been pretty harsh on the house GOP


Posted by: AuthorLMendez, El Patron at January 03, 2013 02:41 PM (yAor6)


I pretty much can't stand the guy but he's been very consistent on blasting the inability of the House GOP to follow through with the Tea Party gains in 2010 regarding the mandate on spending.

Posted by: Captain Hate (dagny 2013 return tour?) at January 03, 2013 02:44 PM (OW/Yj)

160 There is a simple and elegant solution to the debt ceiling debate; tie an increase in the debt ceiling to an entitlement, spending, or tax reform plan.

e.g. The Republican House could agree to a short-term increase of $500 Billion, but Obama only gets the next trillion if the senate passes an entitlement reform bill. He only gets the next trillion if the Senate passes a tax reform or spending reduction bill.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at January 03, 2013 02:44 PM (azHfB)

161 Clerks added for retail during Christmas shopping.


Why do I have the feeling that the country is headed for the original ending to Clerks?


Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Team Stompy. at January 03, 2013 02:44 PM (VtjlW)

162 Boehner has taken a lot of heat recently, and while I won't argue for him staying on as Speaker nor defend his brand of leadership, I will definitely give him credit where due.

As a matter of precedence, (because that's what we're all about these days), henceforth, all future dealings and negotiations with Harry Reid should begin and end with, "Go Fuck Yourself."

Posted by: Fritz at January 03, 2013 02:44 PM (w3+gB)

163 127

National Review isn't "the MFM"

Posted by: JDP at January 03, 2013 02:45 PM (60GaT)

164 >>From moral majority to ambivalent minority. We are on one rudderless ship.

Scary thing is, I believe its all well-steered, not rudderless in the least.

Posted by: Libertrollian at January 03, 2013 02:45 PM (3ZtZW)

165 145
#117 Seriously? How do you figure Obama got 99% of what he wanted? He
wanted a rate increase for everyone making over $250k, no AMT fix, and a
capitulation on the debt ceiling from Congress. And he wanted
Republican votes to make that all happen. He got less than half the new
revenue he wanted, and nothing else. And the tax rate increase was
approved by everyone in his party but less than half of Republicans, so
if and when it fucks up the economy and fails to produce any new
revenue, he and the Democrats own it.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 02:42 PM (NYnoe)

__________
AMT fix? Please! That's a win for us?

He got 99% of what he wanted because he got a massive tax increase and ABSOLUTELY NO SPENDING CUTS. People on both the left and right were so focused on the definition of "rich". Will it be 250, 300, 400K? Who gives a shit? The number doesn't matter. The win for him was it is no established in the minds of the imecile voter that taxing the rich while not cutting spending is the "right way" of balancing the budget and it's bipartisan too!! Anyone who dares suggest we cut spending is now a far right lunatic. That's the big win Obama got.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 02:45 PM (HDgX3)

166 What a load of pap.Tell me, who will make a stand and come up with a plan, any plan, balance the motherfu_ker with taxes and cuts if you like but who is standing tall and putting forth a plan to reduce our debt?

Answer:Nobody, none of them will.We are already way beyond the point of return and we fool and distract ourselves into playing the R and the D game when they are all either Un-American socialists or weak kneed pansies who just want a job and neither are doing what they do for the benefit of the nation.
It's all just the theater of the not so slow burn and we all have ringside seats.Here is a thought the next time you see a politician, be it an R or a D and you want to convey your thoughts, spit in their eye and don't say a word.Let them ponder that.

Posted by: Drider at January 03, 2013 02:46 PM (HaJD9)

167 136 I don't think it's that complicated. The Dems aren't as into soaking the rich as they say they are. They know quite well that they are the party of the yuppie classes who fall well into the 250K-400K household income range. They just talk a good talk to keep the minorities and unionists happy. Yuppies know how to read their 1040 form.

Posted by: xuyee at January 03, 2013 02:46 PM (/QiO2)

168 National Review isn't "the MFM"


Posted by: JDP at January 03, 2013 02:45 PM (60GaT)

__________
You're right. My bad. I thought this was from somewhere else.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 02:46 PM (HDgX3)

169 Why do I have the feeling that the country is headed for the original ending to Clerks?

Posted by: alexthechick -


You mean we become a famous 500 lbs. asshole? Doesn't sound that appealing.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 03, 2013 02:46 PM (KDq5l)

170 My solution to the deb ceiling fight:

$2 trillion hike in exchange for abolishment of one federal dept of my choice. You want another $2 trillion hike 6 months from now? I get to raze another dept of my choice.

Posted by: EC at January 03, 2013 02:47 PM (GQ8sn)

171 #136 They failed in the Senate because Harry Reid massively overplayed his hand, so Mitch McConnell finally told him to fuck off and went and made a deal with Joe Biden. The fact that all but one Democrat in the Senate voted for it means that Harry Reid no longer control's the Democrats in the Senate. If he had any real power he could have queered that deal and stopped it from getting to the Senate floor, but he didn't.

This is also a huge deal that conservatives seem to be totally missing today, and I don't understand why. McConnell just made Joe Biden not only the functional President, but also the functional Senate Majority Leader. Harry Reid has been effectively castrated.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 02:47 PM (NYnoe)

172 Wake me when things catch fire. Nothing matters until then. Add jobs/subtract jobs. Dow up/Dow down. Taxes increased/taxes decreased. Spending reduced (hah!)/spending increased.

None of it makes any difference when the numbers do not actually represent what they were originally designed to signal. Welcome to shadow economics.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at January 03, 2013 02:47 PM (zpqa2)

173 Well, the "rich" better brace for another round of tax increases next year when it turns out this round didn't perform as expected...

...and "the rich" metric is gonna come sliding back down around 100k at some point too.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 03, 2013 02:47 PM (hc3eM)

174 Congress can raise the rates again if they want to.

Let me remind you that the Democrats fought to make Bush's tax cuts permanent. What makes you think Congress is going to raise taxes?

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 02:47 PM (Tt6ky)

175 I see EoJ is in fine form. He and AllenG should both get their own blogs. Make for some interesting reading.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 03, 2013 02:47 PM (IvVLN)

176 I am indifferent. It's all going to burn.Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 03, 2013 02:40 PM (evdj2)____ ___ ___ __It's like a science experiment now. Just observe.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 03, 2013 02:48 PM (1Y+hH)

177 Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 02:42 PM (NYnoe)



Hmmmm; you're a no nonsense person who has put that in the most palatable way I've seen. Maybe I don't feel as bad as I thought I did...

Posted by: Captain Hate (dagny 2013 return tour?) at January 03, 2013 02:48 PM (OW/Yj)

178 I still don't get how leverage of any kind is involved here. It seems that one negotiating party has leverage if they have what the other party wants. It's not like Republicans owned higher taxes that Democrats wanted, or that Democrats owned tax cuts that the Republicans wanted.

It seems like it's a false construct applying the term "leverage" to negotiations like this.

Someone put me some knowledge here.

Posted by: Marmo at January 03, 2013 02:48 PM (QW+AD)

179 Well, the italics didn't seem to work. They work for everyone else!

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 02:48 PM (Tt6ky)

180 Let me remind you that the Democrats fought to make Bush's tax cuts
permanent. What makes you think Congress is going to raise taxes?


When they figure they can get away with it.

Posted by: EC at January 03, 2013 02:48 PM (GQ8sn)

181 For the next year, whatever the deficit is expected to be, grant at most half that in debt ceiling, and then make the cuts across the board. All the while saying that you are just helping Barry keep his promise.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 03, 2013 02:48 PM (evdj2)

182 I barely understand what the fuck happened in washington. I know this. If you have a decent job, not awesome job, just decent. Check your check. You got fucked for absolutly nothing.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 03, 2013 02:49 PM (l86i3)

183 Re #165. It appears nobody wanted spending directed towards themselves, cut. And lots of people are on the government dole, in some form or another.Apparently more than 50% anyway. So the low information voter at least understands self-interest.

Posted by: tubal at January 03, 2013 02:49 PM (BoE3Z)

184 (I'm talking only about taxes here.. there was no time for spending talks - we'll have those soon)

Then I completely and summarily reject your premise. We already had spending cuts. All we had to do was... nothing. If we refuse to pass any bill, yes, there are tax rate hikes. Guess what, that's what the American People voted for. If we refuse to pass any bill we ALSO get spending cuts. The first real ones probably in my lifetime.

And you know what? Except for start of the year withholding, fixing the tax rates wasn't actually all that urgent. We could have passed a bill in late January or early February with no harm ultimately done.

Instead, Congressional Republicans gave in to the urge to do something! So now we all get tax hikes anyway (well, you do if you're not already self-employed and are working), we have nixed any spending cuts, and (worse) increased spending further.

Do you seriously think that we'll ever cut spending if we're not holding some other enormous cudgel? Well, we just put down the only one we had.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at January 03, 2013 02:49 PM (5DR1j)

185 Obastard has already said after the deal that "the rich still aren't paying their fair share".

He will continue with the class warfare until the middle class is paying alot more, because that is where the money is.

Cut. Jibe. Newsletter!

Posted by: rickb223 at January 03, 2013 02:49 PM (GFM2b)

186 Obastard has already said after the deal that "the rich still aren't paying their fair share".

True. But it certainly loses some punch now.

Posted by: CJ at January 03, 2013 02:49 PM (9KqcB)

187 If he had any real power he could have queered that deal and stopped it from getting to the Senate floor, but he didn't.

Biden IS the president of the Senate after all. A couple of days ago I suggested he kick Harry to the curb and stop abdicating the duty.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 03, 2013 02:50 PM (hc3eM)

188 OSP I would have to look. But I think the Deltas with the APG-70 did have a digital data-bus, they did have the AYQ-14 computer and Mil-STD databus. What Grumman was working on to make the Deltas even more awesome before they got all their money stolen by the Hornets was even more fused sensor suite stuff. RIOs having a totally glass cockpit with one big flat screen and a smaller I think 18x9 that could be reconfigured into three displays. And all touch screen. Only thing you would have recognized would have been the grab handles framing the large flat screen. Glove vanes gone and more fuel. A super Bombcat.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:50 PM (fpSpD)

189 Let me remind you that the Democrats fought to make Bush's tax cuts permanent. What makes you think Congress is going to raise taxes?
Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 02:47 PM (Tt6ky)


Because they're CONGRESS. That's what they do. It doesn't matter that the Dems fought to make Bush tax rates permanent. They were also fighting to get rid of them because the "Bush-era tax rates were only for the rich." Remember?

Congress likes money. They like to spend. They can't balance a budget -- they can't even MAKE a budget at this point -- so instead they just keep demanding more money.

As Obamacare and our massive entitlement spending sap the coffers dry, taxes will go up. They will always go up, and spending will never go down.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 03, 2013 02:50 PM (4df7R)

190 158

a protracted failure to raise the debt ceiling is just a bad idea in general. you're making too much of this fighters vs. smarmy elite thing

Posted by: JDP at January 03, 2013 02:50 PM (60GaT)

191 A super Bombcat.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:50 PM (fpSpD)


Did they swap the P&W for those kick ass GE engines?

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 03, 2013 02:51 PM (l86i3)

192 "the rich still aren't paying their fair share"

Groundwork for phase 2 next year.

Posted by: @PurpAv at January 03, 2013 02:51 PM (hc3eM)

193 The victory, I guess, is more conservative than Republican, in that politicians of both parties supported Bush's tax cuts for the middle class. That's an important cultural victory, at least.

Now if we can just score that kind of cultural victory with spending cuts.

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 02:51 PM (Tt6ky)

194 The left and the MFM - there I go repeating myself - went apeshit when Romney suggested we cut $10M from the PBS budget. You really think any Democrat will agree to cut hundreds of billions from SS/Medicare?

You guys are delusional.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 02:51 PM (HDgX3)

195 It takes those issues off the table but sure as fuck doesn't address any of the spending issues that got us into this mess.

Voters. Don't. Want. Spending. Cut.

We need to get our heads around that. Until voters feel pain, the only folks holding out for real spending cuts are conservative bloggers.

Posted by: CJ at January 03, 2013 02:52 PM (9KqcB)

196 "the rich still aren't paying their fair share"


My eyes glaze over every time I hear that from people. I know I'm dealing with a sub-tard right there and then.

Posted by: EC at January 03, 2013 02:52 PM (GQ8sn)

197 Hmm

Posted by: Libertrollian at January 03, 2013 02:52 PM (3ZtZW)

198 "the rich still aren't paying their fair share"

Because dammit, those $250K a year millionaire households aren't paying enough!

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 03, 2013 02:53 PM (4df7R)

199 This was never about finances.

It was all about politics and power.

Obama used the situation to weaken his opposition by deepening the divide between conservatives and moderates in the GOP while reinforcing the media narrative that Republicans only care about "The Rich" and in so doing he strengthened his grip on power.

Nothing else mattered.

Posted by: Nighthawk at January 03, 2013 02:53 PM (RSqz2)

200 Never ever mention the TF-30s to me. Yes the GE F-110 that the Bs and Ds had.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:53 PM (fpSpD)

201
Well, it does put the libs into the ridiculous position of having to defend W's tax cuts, which they derided for how long, exactly?

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie ® at January 03, 2013 02:53 PM (1hM1d)

202 i could see certain Democrats agreeing to tinker around with SS and Medicare to much kicking and screaming from their base.

the question's obviously whether the changes would really amount to that much

Posted by: JDP at January 03, 2013 02:53 PM (60GaT)

203 Never ever mention the TF-30s to me. Yes the GE F-110 that the Bs and Ds had.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:53 PM (fpSpD)


LOL

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 03, 2013 02:54 PM (l86i3)

204 >>>156 Obamacare itself goes to great lengths to hide its tax hikes.

>>>But they can't hide the shit people WON'T be buying cuz they got less money. Consumer spending will suffer in direct proportion.
Posted by: @PurpAv at January 03, 2013 02:43 PM (hc3eM)

I didn't say it would be successful. I said they were trying to hide the tax hikes. that's because people hate tax hikes. Obamacare's biggest negative impact will be in the job market. either employers will cut hours to be in compliance, or if that is outlawed, work their existing workers much longer hours. it'll be cheaper to work 2 guys 60 hours a week and cover 2 health policies than to work 3 guys 40 hours a week. hiring will be avoided.

Posted by: #6 at January 03, 2013 02:54 PM (KHo8t)

205 Well, it does put the libs into the ridiculous position of having to defend W's tax cuts, which they derided for how long, exactly?
Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie ® at January 03, 2013 02:53 PM (1hM1d)


You're implying they've stopped. Democrats will always talk about of both sides of their mouth with ridiculously contradictory premises, and yet force you to believe that what they're saying is the same on either side.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 03, 2013 02:54 PM (4df7R)

206
Democratshave staked out a position based on low or no taxes for 50% and relatively low taxes on income brackets up to $250. to an extent, this is an adoption of Republican low tax is good theory. but they can come back for special high taxes for the rich at any time, and indirect taxes on the not so rich through corporate taxes (actual rates or closing loopholes) at any time.
republican advocacy for low or no on 50% and relatively low up to $250 has distorted the tax system, so a smaller and smaller number of filers pay a larger and larger share.
fixes for entitlement spending that place an increasing burden on a few to fund a benefit for the many will face similar stress- benefits will have to be paid for, and benefits will be enlarged and expanded for the needy and deserving, with an ever increasing cost borne by a smaller number of payers. even republicans are calling the return to the flat tax withholding rate a tax increase on the middle class

Posted by: wm flip at January 03, 2013 02:54 PM (lB/5N)

207 The other thing that is pure bullshit about this "tax rates for the middle class didn't increase".....the middle class pays virtually no income tax. You have to get well above $100K before you pay any significant % of your income to taxes. And $100K is well past middle class in most of America.

What really happened was this:

The middle class paid no income tax in 2012 and the middle class will pay no income tax in 2013 and beyond either. The FSA isn't just the Obamaphone lady. It's a lot of "middle class" people who pay nothing or close to nothing and get all sorts of shit from the govt. They don't get welfare per se, but they get everything for free...airports, military, etc.

Let's call this for what it really is. The really rich people got a tax increase. Upper middle class people will pay the same rates. Middle and lower middle class people will continue paying nothing.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 02:55 PM (HDgX3)

208 He doesn't speak Venezuelan.


So what can we get for a brazillian dollars?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 03, 2013 02:55 PM (GFM2b)

209 Harry Reid has been effectively castrated.

That's insufficient proof that he's not a pederast.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 03, 2013 02:56 PM (ZKzrr)

210 #165 I don't agree, because this was portrayed by ALL the media as exclusively a fight over taxes, not spending. They thought they were helping Obama, but they didn't. Now the spending fight starts. I don't know how anyone could have thought Republicans had any serious chance of getting any spending cuts in this bill. They didn't. Conservatives are moving the goalposts here to deny Republicans any semblance of a victory, which is politically stupid. All you are doing is playing into Obama's hands by shooting at Republicans and not at him or at Harry Reid.

This was a tax bill. Obama wanted $1.2 trillion in new revenue out of it and he wanted to be able to spend all of that on new liberal shit and have no further fight on the debt ceiling. He got half of the revenue he wanted, not enough to spend on anything that matters, and that only on paper; and he did not get to avoid a separate fight on the debt ceiling. He doesn't just want no spending cuts; he wants to INCREASE spending, and he still can't. I just don't see any way you can spin that as he got 99% of what he wanted!

The more we tie Obama down with arcane legislative battles, the pissier and more unpopular he is going to be. He hates this shit, he doesn't want to lead or govern, he wants to agitate when he can and play golf and go on vacation the rest of the time.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 02:56 PM (NYnoe)

211 So what can we get for a brazillian dollars?
Posted by: rickb223 at January 03, 2013 02:55 PM (GFM2b)


Oh, that's BAD. That's so bad even a pun aficionado like me almost has to pull the barooga horn and have you yanked off stage.

Almost.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 03, 2013 02:56 PM (4df7R)

212
NEXT: Democras will decry the rising deficits and demand more taxes on the rich.


And the media will assist and the people will agree.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 03, 2013 02:56 PM (1Y+hH)

213 The whole fiscal cliff thing about income tax increases is a side show.

The REALLY SERIOUS TAX is the hidden one - inflation. With the Federal Reserve handing out money to the Treasury and Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac EVERY MONTH, the government is taking a bite via dilution of every single dollar in circulation. The Fed is issuing $100 billion a month - $1.2 trillion a year - about the total deficit spending.

The Federal Reserve is what is making the huge deficits work - not taxes.

Posted by: Whitehall at January 03, 2013 02:57 PM (FmPSC)

214 You have to get well above $100K before you pay any significant % of your income to taxes

Either you have an odd concept of "significant", or you're assuming everyone with a decent job has lots of little deductions running around underfoot.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at January 03, 2013 02:57 PM (ZKzrr)

215 :::190 158

a protracted failure to raise the debt ceiling is just a bad idea in general. you're making too much of this fighters vs. smarmy elite thing
Posted by: JDP at January 03, 2013 02:50 PM (60GaT):::

Horseshit. Do you not have access to a calculator?

THERE IS NO MORE MONEY.

Tell me, when is the best time to start cutting spending? And what other tools do the GOP have to enforce it?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 03, 2013 02:58 PM (QVmdM)

216 Congress just fought, bitterly, over whether to keep 95% or 100% of the Bush tax cuts. They're not going to raise taxes again anytime soon.

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 02:58 PM (Tt6ky)

217 NEXT: Democras will decry the rising deficits and demand more taxes on the rich.

That's next time on Headlines of the Future: 2013!
And 2014.

And 2021.

And 2200...

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 03, 2013 02:58 PM (4df7R)

218 NEXT: Democras will decry the rising deficits and demand more taxes on the rich.

Pre-Reagan, 70% you rich ass thieves. Your keepin me down. I want mine and I want it now.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 03, 2013 02:58 PM (l86i3)

219 Groundwork for phase 2 next year.

Absolutely. Because I once counted myself in that category, but no longer, I will reveal the secret... Accountants. They will tell you how to legally beat the living shit out of the tax code. For pennies on the dollar of cost.

I expect 'the rich' to take the advice of accountants and completely, utterly nullify the tax increases. Like you said, they'll be coming for us next year. By then, Boner should be tanned and rested.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at January 03, 2013 02:58 PM (feFL6)

220 Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 02:56 PM (NYnoe)

________


Fair enough. I get what you're saying, I disagree. I think Obama didn't care about the actual numbers. 1.2T or 600B doesn't matter. He got a tax rate on "evil rich people". He demonized the rich to the point where anyone making $250K or more is seen as sub-human by the masses. And by extension he also demonized the GOP as defenders of these sub-humans. Even if taxes only went up on people making $10M or more, I still think Obama would have won the battle. It was a purely political battle and had nothing to do with spending or taxation.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 03:00 PM (HDgX3)

221 #184 So you're saying you wanted to go ahead with the sequester of $500 billion in defense spending? You know that's REALLY playing right into the progressives' agenda.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 03:00 PM (NYnoe)

222
THERE IS NO MORE MONEY.

Tell me, when is the best time to start cutting spending? And what other tools do the GOP have to enforce it? Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 03, 2013 02:58 PM (QVmdM__ ___ ___Irrelevant. There's been no more money for years. Let me know when there's no more lenders.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 03, 2013 03:00 PM (1Y+hH)

223 Tell me, when is the best time to start cutting spending? Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 03, 2013 02:58 PM (QVmdM)

Tomorrow, always tomorrow. Right after I quit drinking.

Posted by: Heralder at January 03, 2013 03:00 PM (+xmn4)

224 We are so fucked, Russia looks at us and says, "Hey Comrade, You're so fucked."

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 03, 2013 03:00 PM (l86i3)

225 Horseshit. Do you not have access to a calculator?

THERE IS WAS NO MORE MONEY YEARS AGO.

Tell me, when is the best time to start cutting spending? And what other tools do the GOP have to enforce it?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 03, 2013 02:58 PM (QVmdM)



Fixed

Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 03, 2013 03:01 PM (IvVLN)

226 Tomorrow, always tomorrow. Right after I quit drinking.

Is that anything like, "Free beer. Next Tuesday"?

Posted by: rickb223 at January 03, 2013 03:02 PM (GFM2b)

227 224
We are so fucked, Russia looks at us and says, "Hey Comrade, You're so fucked."

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 03, 2013 03:00 PM (l86i3)

______________________________
Russia has a 13% flat tax. And lots of oil.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 03:02 PM (HDgX3)

228 I made $30K last year. Looking at my last pay stub, total taxes taken out of my check were 2,881 for federal, 1,177 for SS, and 406 for Medicare (and 1300 for the privilege of living and working in Illinois). Granted, I'll get some of that back, but four thousand bucks is a lot of money to me.

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 03:02 PM (Tt6ky)

229
Posted by: BCochran1981 at January 03, 2013 03:01 PM (IvVLN)

Heh. (#222)

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 03, 2013 03:02 PM (1Y+hH)

230 Congress just fought, bitterly, over whether to keep 95% or 100% of the Bush tax cuts. They're not going to raise taxes again anytime soon.
Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 02:58 PM (Tt6ky)


"Soon" doesn't matter. They'll do it. And I'd be willing to bet we'll start hearing rumblings to that effect before half the year is out.

We have no more money, and Washington WILL NOT cut spending to any significant degree. Don't you know that cutting PBS funding is akin to killing grandmothers and stabbing puppies, you soulless heathen? No, we must continue to pay for everything we've always* paid for, but we also need more money to cover X, Y, and Z. That means we'll have to have a "serious conversation" about raising taxes on "high income earners."

And round and round we go.


*"always" in this respect means "Anything established since Woodrow Wilson was in office."

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at January 03, 2013 03:03 PM (4df7R)

231 Russia has a 13% flat tax. And lots of oil.
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 03:02 PM (HDgX3)

Once they get their corruption under control they will be......oh, wait.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 03, 2013 03:03 PM (l86i3)

232 Never ever mention the TF-30s to me. Yes the GE F-110 that the Bs and Ds had.


Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 02:53 PM (fpSpD)



Amen!

Posted by: Nighthawk at January 03, 2013 03:05 PM (RSqz2)

233 #220 But he didn't even completely win the political battle. Taxes will go up a little for a small number of people, most of whom voted for Obama anyway so why should we care? Republicans saved the much larger group of small business ownersand suburban professionals who make $250-400k and are largely Republican voters. And he did NOT get anyone to break the Grover Norquist pledge, because Norquist himself blessed this bill. He didnot get a bill passed with Republican votes, so he owns the results of this, which will be meager.

You act like we have never seen high tax rates like that which was just RE-imposed on the top bracket, but you know we have, and it wasn't the end of the world. Yes, I know it's class warfare and all that rot, but that's what the election was about and we lost.Low-info Obama voters now think "Obama won and the rich people are going to pay now." What's Obama going to do now for an encore when there still isn't enough money for all the new programs he promised?

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 03:06 PM (qE3AR)

234 I didn't feel like reading all the comments but I live on the Washinton / Oregon border and all over the radio yesterday the Democratic congressional types were livid that Obama / Biden gave up so much. Most of them echoed the idea that the Dems now have no leverage for further bargaining.

http://tinyurl.com/avpfe9b

Posted by: chad98036 at January 03, 2013 03:06 PM (gYowz)

235 Tell me, when is the best time to start cutting spending? And what other tools do the GOP have to enforce it?
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 03, 2013 02:58 PM (QVmdM)

Reality. It also has the benefit of not being GOP competence dependent. If (sorry when) the debt ceiling is raised, it will make the US debt look like a riskier investment. This will continue every time this happens until no one buys debt. When this occurs, we may (will) get our austerity.
Of government is of the people, by the people, and the people are largely disfunctional retards.

Posted by: Jollyroger at January 03, 2013 03:09 PM (t06LC)

236 Whoops, Deltas had the APG-71. 'one little mistake'
Pulled from the shelves Paul Gillcrist's book on the F-14s. Has an appendix listing 592 airframes. And in 1945 we had 98 carriers from CVE to CV.

Chapter 32 briefly covers what Grumman called Tomcat 21 but not in technical terms. Just about the politics that killed it. Chapter 34 describes why the F/A-18E/F is junk.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 03:10 PM (fpSpD)

237 228
I made $30K last year. Looking at my last pay stub, total taxes taken
out of my check were 2,881 for federal, 1,177 for SS, and 406 for
Medicare (and 1300 for the privilege of living and working in Illinois).
Granted, I'll get some of that back, but four thousand bucks is a lot
of money to me.


Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 03:02 PM (Tt6ky)

_____________
If you made $30K a year you'll get all of your income tax back. What you should do is decrease your withholding so you don't give the govt an interest free loan every year. And you probably also qualify for the EITC which should cover your payroll tax as well. or a good chunk of it.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 03:11 PM (HDgX3)

238 >>>Another condescending (while being totally fucking wrong) post from
DrewM about how we must raise the debt ceiling because A). This Is Not
The Hill To Die On, B). We're Keeping Our Powder Dry For The Real
Fight, which is the next mid-term elections in 2014, and C). You're
all too simple to appreciate the backroom machinations that are the way
Things Get Done in Congress. You don't appreciate, nay, venerate The Process.


Look.

Here is something that you keep waving away, that is just a REALITY, like ice ages and weather patterns and gravity: the Republicans have control of 1/2 of 1/3rd of the Federal government. And they are wildly unpopular with the American people. And the Democratic President was just reelected, with an increased Senate majority.

THIS IS THE TERRAIN. You seem to think that all things, all forms of maneuver, all varieties of wizardry, are available as options to the GOP right now. Realistically speaking, the GOP can do extremely little until and unless it takes one more branch of government -- either the Senate (uniting Congressional control under the GOP) or the Presidency.

Your argument is with the Constitution, not with "pussy Republicans." They have a shit hand to play.

Posted by: Jeff B. at January 03, 2013 03:12 PM (/COnL)

239 OT More American Maid Cafe video
http://youtu.be/pHHwBulMy7k

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 03, 2013 03:13 PM (fpSpD)

240 @Mr. MooMoo

When I file, I'll let you know.

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 03:14 PM (Tt6ky)

241 And Obama DID care about the actual number, he campaigned on $1.2 trillion in new revenue, he insisted that he needed all of it and he refused to back off of that number until Joe Biden made the deal with McConnell. And he planned to spend most of it and use a pittance for deficit reduction, so he could claim he reduced the deficit while still "investing" an all the liberal wish-list shit that he thinks will create jobs. He can't do that now with less than half the revenue he wanted. This is why liberals like Ezra Klein and Mark Halperin said it was a bad deal and are apoplectic. There isn't enough newrevenue in this deal for Obama to do squat, but getting any more tax increases out of Congress will be close to impossible. Not only that,but the media are having a field day with the special-interest tax breaks that made it into this bill, and the Democrats in the Senate are getting 100% of the blame for those.

So if this was a political win for Obama, it was a damn small one, especially for the first battle after his supposedly smashing relection victory.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 03:14 PM (aBlZ1)

242 Your argument is with the Constitution, not with "pussy Republicans."

I think the power of the purse is in there.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 03, 2013 03:17 PM (evdj2)

243 You act like we have never seen high tax rates like
that which was just RE-imposed on the top bracket, but you know we have,
and it wasn't the end of the world. Yes, I know it's class warfare and
all that rot, but that's what the election was about and we
lost.Low-info Obama voters now think "Obama won and the rich people are
going to pay now." What's Obama going to do now for an encore when there
still isn't enough money for all the new programs he promised?

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 03:06 PM (qE3AR)

______________________I don't think you're getting my point. It's not about taxes. It's about spending. We have a spending problem. Obama didn't cut any spending. Therefore he didn't address the real problem and got away with it....again. He got $600B in new taxes, that's his bonus. His real win was not touching a dime of spending.

And his encore will be of course to do it again. The rich are still not paying their fare share. Let's tax them some more. Hey they can afford it, you know? And the MFM will get their knee pads on again and go through the same cycle we just went through.

And the big KO comes when he raises taxes on everyone. That's because the meme of "we have a tax problem not a revenue problem" has been set in stone. And the dolts who are anxiously waiting on Kim/Kanye baby will nod and say, yep we need more taxes.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 03:17 PM (HDgX3)

244 The best way to ensure that Democrats get the blame for how bad this deal is for them is to simply tell the truth about it. No deficit reduction, and a tax hike on workers to give millions to rich, Democrat donors.

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 03:17 PM (Tt6ky)

245 Here is something that you keep waving away, that is just a REALITY, like ice ages and weather patterns and gravity: the Republicans have control of 1/2 of 1/3rd of the Federal government. And they are wildly unpopular with the American people. And the Democratic President was just reelected, with an increased Senate majority.

Which indicates to most people that the GOP tactics since 2010 - withdrawal and nonengagement - have failed.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at January 03, 2013 03:17 PM (ZSnCv)

246 Thanks, morons and 'ettes on the Amazon tips.

Posted by: Flounder at January 03, 2013 03:18 PM (Kkt/i)

247 What did Americans "lose" here? That instead of 100% getting tax cuts for 10 years only 98% are going to get tax cuts forever? That's not a loss - it's a win.

As others have argued: this deal still leaves in place a $1.5 trillion annual deficit. This isn't just "let it burn" -- it's the President striking the match.

Posted by: Fabio9000 at January 03, 2013 03:19 PM (nd/L2)

248 When you get past the optics and into the actual policy, I actually do believe Liberals lost more than we did.

If you told me two terms of Obama and a Democrat Senate and 98% of us would still be paying the tax rates under Bush, I would call you a liar. We're paying FAR less in taxes than we are under the supposedly "centrist" Bill Clinton with the Class of '94 Congress when the nation was actually far more conservative.

The deficit problem is now squarely on the shoulders of spending and entitlements, any more "soak the rich" rhetoric with say cutting deductions on the top is going to laughed at as it won't be able to even fund the government for 24 hours.

Posted by: McAdams at January 03, 2013 03:21 PM (9o+8D)

249 #243 So you think there is any appetite left in either party for another tax bill? I think you are crazy.

Of course we have a spending problem. But THIS bill was never about that, it was about fixing the idiocy of tax rates with expiration dates and an out-of-control AMT. I don't know why conservatives thought Republicans had any leverage to cut spending in this bill. But they have plenty now to cut spending in some actual spending bills.

You are claiming a loss because the fight wasn't over what you wanted it to be over. But that fight is still left to be fought. And Obama did not get his automatic debt ceiling increase in this bill either, so that's another fight still to have with him.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 03:25 PM (aBlZ1)

250 Which indicates to most people that the GOP tactics since 2010 - withdrawal and nonengagement - have failed.

And how are the supposed to stand and fight when anytime they draw a line in the sand their "base" deserts them because it isn't ideologically pure enough or the person proposing it once clapped during an Obama speech or any of the 18,000,000,000 other excuses that are given whenever any sort of effort at resistance collapses.

If you don't like the GOP and want a third party quit bitching about it and start the fucking third party.

Posted by: chad98036 at January 03, 2013 03:25 PM (gYowz)

251 To be fair, the ObamaCare taxes hit everyone, so it's not really accurate to say that most people will pay the same tax rate as under Bush.

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 03:26 PM (Tt6ky)

252 Your argument is with the Constitution, not with "pussy Republicans." They have a shit hand to play.

This right here.

We as conservative voters and activists couldn't persuade more of our fellow citizens to support our side in the elections. Now we're shoving our outnumbered GOP politicians in the back, shouting at them to go fight the schoolyard bullies we couldn't beat.

Posted by: CJ at January 03, 2013 03:27 PM (9KqcB)

253 When even Democrats have to pretend to support conservative values, it shows that we've won important cultural victories. At this point, the conservative war really should be on the media.

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 03:29 PM (Tt6ky)

254 251
To be fair, the ObamaCare taxes hit everyone, so it's not really
accurate to say that most people will pay the same tax rate as under
Bush.


Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 03:26 PM (Tt6ky)

_______
False. Income taxes to pay for Obamacare will only affect the $250K+ earners.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 03:29 PM (HDgX3)

255 Here is something that you keep waving away, that is just a REALITY,
like ice ages and weather patterns and gravity: the Republicans have
control of 1/2 of 1/3rd of the Federal government. And they are wildly
unpopular with the American people. And the Democratic President was
just reelected, with an increased Senate majority.


_____________

And in 2005, Democrats didn't control even that much yet the effectively blocked all of Bush's 2nd term agenda.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 03:30 PM (HDgX3)

256 All Republicans have to do is not vote for a debt ceiling raise without large current year (and all years forward) spending cuts, and then sell it to the people over the next two years. If they can't do that they are inde3ed purposeless and incompetent.

Posted by: Dirks Strewn at January 03, 2013 03:31 PM (VLifP)

257 If we will all just calm down here, we have an opportunity to turn the tables on Obama and the liberals and make THEM have the civil war and not us. Now that Obama only got half the revenues he wanted, he isn't going to be able to do any grand new Krugmanesque public-works program to pump up the economy while still claiming to reduce the deficit. If liberals still want that shit they're gonna have to cut something else to get the money, or sell the country on more debt to pay for it. That's a hell of a lot harder than selling "let's get the money from the billionaires."

Obama was really counting on getting over a trillion new dollars to spend, and he isn't getting it. There are a lot of folks who were already assuming they were getting on that gravy train, and they still want on it. Let's start making THEM fight over the crumbs instead of us fighting over why we gave them crumbs instead of a full loaf.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 03:32 PM (aBlZ1)

258 Mr. MooMoo

There are far more tax increases in ObamaCare than just the income tax.

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 03:32 PM (Tt6ky)

259 The hard core part of their side wants a maximum wage with 100% tax over that dollar value. Some want that at number to be 250K and some what that at 50K. No one can make a dollar over 250K without having to send that dollar to the IRS. As they did not get that they lost. They did not just what the Bush Tax cut removed they wanted a tax increase on the Clinton tax rate on everyone. They did not get that they lost.

Posted by: Trevor (@tjexcite) at January 03, 2013 03:33 PM (Ea64Y)

260 If you will recall, all the extra money for Obamacare and the various slush funds was to come from imposing a carbon tax, which the Democrats thought they had a lock on. When that failed, and the spending bills didn't, the government's fiscal doom was baked.

So, expect calls for a carbon tax to start back up again.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 03, 2013 03:35 PM (evdj2)

261 And in 2005, Democrats didn't control even that much yet the effectively blocked all of Bush's 2nd term agenda.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 03, 2013 03:30 PM (HDgX3)

The only part of the agenda I recall is SS Reform, and the GOP was too chicken to pursue it. But I don't recall any of us on the Right making too much noise. We were still in the post-9/11 Defend W at All Cost mode.

Posted by: CJ at January 03, 2013 03:36 PM (9KqcB)

262 #260, THANK YOU, I have yelled about that for 4 years. The Cap and Trade regime was going to be the money engine for all this new shit Obama promised to soend money on, including universal health care. And it was also going to be the big payoff engine for his contributors.And it was killed by Democrats in the Senate, not by Republicans, and it will be again if it is brought up again.

Posted by: rockmom at January 03, 2013 03:39 PM (aBlZ1)

263 It was a shitty deal. But it was the least shitty deal they could get with Barack Obama in the White House and Harry Reid in the Senate.

The House Republicans are not the problem. The American people are. The message of the 2012 election was, "We don't give a shit about fiscal responsibility or future generations. Give us stuff now."

A new Speaker won't change that.

Posted by: I Work for Dick Jones at January 03, 2013 03:41 PM (MSrqi)

264 Someone on the last ONT had a pretty decent idea: extend the debt limit only enough to pay interest on existing debt. Pass it and send it to the Senate. Repeat as necessary.

Posted by: Enby at January 03, 2013 03:42 PM (ptlfZ)

265
Yeah, I heard this arguement on the radio today and nearly thought it was a crank.
No way it's a win for the GOP.
Rinos, that's another story.

Of course those on Capitol Hill say it was not the hill to die on.

Posted by: Justamom at January 03, 2013 03:44 PM (m9GfP)

266 251
To be fair, the ObamaCare taxes hit everyone, so it's not really
accurate to say that most people will pay the same tax rate as under
Bush.


Posted by: JohnJ

But the debate was over federal income taxes, not other taxes like the payroll tax. If you wanted to be technical, Americans had lower taxes under Obama than they did Bush since he temporarily cut the payroll tax. So by in large, the Bush tax rates are still there for all but a small portion. And even those at the very top got a nice tax cut with the lower capital gains/dividends taxes, estate tax portions and moving the line on marginal rates.

But what I find really intellectually dishonest is when people say this bill raised taxes. It didn't, it was actually a massive tax cut.

I understand people being mad at the deal because it didn't include the 1% (I also a big believer in trickle down economics) but it's horseshit to say when a Congress actually lower taxes by trillions of dollars after an automatic tax hike that it's "raising taxes".

So any tax relief moving forward doesn't count because at one point in history it was lower, and instead is actually a tax hike? We need to be careful we don't slip into the fever swamps.

Posted by: McAdams at January 03, 2013 03:45 PM (9o+8D)

267 >>>And in 2005, Democrats didn't control even that much yet the effectively blocked all of Bush's 2nd term agenda.

This is simply false. You either misremember history, or weren't paying attention at the time.

You know who blocked Bush's "second term agenda?" REPUBLICANS. That's right, it was the REPUBLICAN HOUSE AND SENATE.

And are you upset about it? Do you even remember what Bush's big second term agenda item WAS? It was Amnesty. Which, as I said, was killed stone-dead not by the Democrats, but by the shrieks of hardcore conservatives (presumably like yourself) and their Congressional representatives. The other item was Social Security, which Democrats did indeed demagogue, but which received absolutely zero institutional support from the House or Senate GOP either.

And then Katrina hit in November of 2005, which well and truly erased Bush's popularity numbers, making him unable to move squat. Which wouldn't have mattered too much, practically speaking, because major legislation (the hot-button stuff, at least) is usually all passed through during the first year of a Congressional term, not the second (because that's too close to reelection, not enough time for things to die down). And after 2006, it was a Dem-controlled Congress.

Posted by: Jeff B. at January 03, 2013 03:46 PM (/COnL)

268 >>>#260, THANK YOU, I have yelled about that for 4 years. The Cap and Trade
regime was going to be the money engine for all this new shit Obama
promised to spend money on, including universal health care. And it was
also going to be the big payoff engine for his contributors.And it was
killed by Democrats in the Senate, not by Republicans, and it will be
again if it is brought up again.


I remember this well, and everyone here in DC could have told you (and in fact DID tell you at the time!) that this was the biggest, stupidest pipe dream on the face of the earth. All you needed to do was look at the Kyoto Treaty vote for a (more extreme, but neverthless on-point) example of how the Senate would treat cap trade.

Which, incidentally, is one reason why you'll NEVER see a "carbon tax" successfully pass. The other reason, of course, is because American skepticism about global warming keeps increasing from year-to-year. For those who say that conservatives always lose the zeitgeist cultural battles because of malign media influence, take note: Global Warming is the anti-Gay Marriage in the U.S.A.: despite liberal media types believing every bit as much in it, it's LOSING ground, precipitously, instead of gaining. Probably because, unlike gay marriage, there is a transparently obvious financial bottom-line attached to any legislation.

Posted by: Jeff B. at January 03, 2013 03:51 PM (/COnL)

269 "But the debate was over federal income taxes, not other taxes"

No, the debate was whether people paid at a higher tax rate under the Bush tax cuts or now in 2013 with ObamaCare being fully implemented, so the payroll tax cut isn't included.

Posted by: JohnJ at January 03, 2013 03:53 PM (Tt6ky)

270 "but by the shrieks of hardcore conservatives"

OK "shrieking hardcore conservatives" killing a retardedly expansive bill like that was not a bad thing

Posted by: JDP at January 03, 2013 03:55 PM (60GaT)

271
Comic relief from HA:




Toomey: GOP should be willling to risk shutdown to cuts in debt ceiling deal.



Oh, the drama.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 03, 2013 03:59 PM (1Y+hH)

272 should read: "to GET cuts"

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at January 03, 2013 04:01 PM (1Y+hH)

273 Sophistry. I'm sure Boehner's leadership can "win" again in a few months, when he flails helplessly and raises the debt ceiling.

As WOPR advised, "The only winning move is not to play." The GOP allowed the Democrats make the rules and define the playfield, and then we "win" by giving them only 98% of what they want. Meanwhile, our children go into more debt. Businesses close. People's lives are ruined. Yay, us.


Posted by: GalosGann at January 03, 2013 04:11 PM (T3KlW)

274 Question earlier asked about WHY the Dems caved on the 250K number, and it is important that they did in my opinion...here's the great response given earlier:

167
136 I don't think it's that complicated. The Dems aren't as into soaking
the rich as they say they are. They know quite well that they are the
party of the yuppie classes who fall well into the 250K-400K household
income range. They just talk a good talk to keep the minorities and
unionists happy. Yuppies know how to read their 1040 form.

And that, IMHO is why the Dems won't go to the income tax well again anytime soon. Look at the county returns for 2012. Those blue suburbs in big electoral states are loaded with families in the 250k range. Those same voters are not going to get all worked up about serious spending cuts because those cuts don't affect them.

That gives the GOP an opportunity to actually do something. Whether they will remains to be seen.

Posted by: watchtheface at January 03, 2013 04:26 PM (ROdby)

275 "Again, why is that so hard to understand, and why is it so hard to understand that this put Republicans in a bad negotiating position."

Cry me a river. The Republicans put themselves in that position. Like they do every time.

The House wants to extend the tax cuts they should pass a bill to extend the tax cuts, and then the Senate can vote on it. If the Senate didn't pass it, the tax cuts expire.

Posted by: GalosGann at January 03, 2013 04:28 PM (T3KlW)

276 Make the "Bush Tax Cuts" permanent seems huge. For years renewing the BTCs has been a huge chip for the democrats in fiscal negotiations. The democrats have been continuously been able to claim that they are lowering taxes by essentially passing the same damn tax cut over and over again. In effect, they have been able to rebrand the status quo as tax cuts. No longer can they do that.

Posted by: aDub at January 03, 2013 05:14 PM (haGfu)

277
Look, I don't know what's so hard for the far righties to understand about this: Picking a fight that would have resulted in higher taxes for everyone was a loser. The fight to pick is the upcoming one on the debt ceiling.

Guys, take a break from diddling your sister-wives and think strategically.

Posted by: sanity at January 03, 2013 05:21 PM (RVjIg)

278 :yawn:

Posted by: Libtardo at January 03, 2013 06:01 PM (YmPwQ)

279 >Some suggest that the Democrats no longer have much leverage in the
coming debates over the debt ceiling. They have less leverage, but
that's mostly because they already got their top priority.<

Very true. The more I see details and look at the potential consequences, the better I think this deal is given circumstances.

The focus will now be on spending, irrespective of what Obama says. He got his tax hikes. Good luck with getting more.

The only potential danger would be to discuss "tax reform" as part of spending. But Republicans should be in no mood to do this now and delinking is critical to success. Besides tax reform is a non-starter because the fundamental asks from Obama are too costly. Obama got his tax increase- now what? Is that his one trick pony? What happened to the "balanced approach" Obama went on about as nauseum. That need to be repeated like a mantra.

Oh and it is no small matter that Boehner said no more private talks. I am hoping Obama regurgitated a little of that mahi-mahi pate when he heard that.

Let's talk about spending. Period. That the other side of the scale Sparky.

Balance. It;s science.

Posted by: marcus at January 03, 2013 06:57 PM (ShZzd)

280
Howard Dean said it - everyone should pay more in taxes. Honestly I thought they would extend Bush rates for 98% for 2 some years, or some stupid thing like that.
Democrats wanted the fiscal cliff because it gave them their higher tax rates on everyone, and they could blame republicans for it.
They didn't get that, infac they didn't even get what I thought they would, which would easily be the $250,000 and more group, as well as just an extension on the Bush rates for everyone else... no
Instead Bush rates are permanent, and they got $400,000 as the "rich" line. Sure it sucks - they shouldn't get anything - but they won the election and since Boehner offered stuff for free calling them "revenue enhancements", I actually think this deal ended up being much better than it could have been.

Posted by: Reality_Man at January 03, 2013 10:12 PM (L2x1w)

281 279 The only potential danger would be to discuss "tax reform" as part of spending.
-
The only "tax reform" Republicans should be willing to discuss is repealing the Hollywood tax cuts, and following through with the rest of Instapundit's suggested reforms.

Seriously, Democrats are now the rich and the privileged. This privilege, as applied to taxes, is why they can afford to push for more taxes on working whites, taxes that won't hurt them because they have sweetheart deals. (And / or they are too rich to care.) Any honest attempt to "soak the rich" would start by eliminating privileges for Democrat client groups.

The Republican Party also has its special friends. But the situation is not symmetrical. The Republican coalition is built mostly on people who want to be let alone to make money. The Democratic coalition is built on people who want (and often have) monopoly privileges and free stuff. The Democratic coalition has more to fear from sunlight.

Any Republican negotiator should meet any attempt to raise taxes by saying, "fine, you go first; start cutting these privileged client groups loose. And no private negotiations; let's do this in public and you can explain to everybody why the politically unconnected should get soaked, while your special friends who I will name continue to get a free run in ways that I will explain."

It wouldn't take much of that for any Democratic President or high political leader to start getting messages from Hollywood and Wall Street saying, "stop the tax talk."

Posted by: Chromoly Man at January 04, 2013 04:31 AM (ji3gO)

282 LOL...you wrote "Republicans" and "backbone" in the same sentence without a negative modifier. Good one! Oh, wait, you were being sarcastic...

Posted by: jetty at January 04, 2013 07:55 AM (XPqEM)






Processing 0.04, elapsed 0.0551 seconds.
15 queries taking 0.0207 seconds, 291 records returned.
Page size 166 kb.
Powered by Minx 0.7 alpha.

MuNuvians
MeeNuvians
Polls! Polls! Polls!
Frequently Asked Questions
The (Almost) Complete Paul Anka Integrity Kick
Top Top Tens
Greatest Hitjobs

The Ace of Spades HQ Sex-for-Money Skankathon
A D&D Guide to the Democratic Candidates
Margaret Cho: Just Not Funny
More Margaret Cho Abuse
Margaret Cho: Still Not Funny
Iraqi Prisoner Claims He Was Raped... By Woman
Wonkette Announces "Morning Zoo" Format
John Kerry's "Plan" Causes Surrender of Moqtada al-Sadr's Militia
World Muslim Leaders Apologize for Nick Berg's Beheading
Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree
Milestone: Oliver Willis Posts 400th "Fake News Article" Referencing Britney Spears
Liberal Economists Rue a "New Decade of Greed"
Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility
Intelligence Officials Eye Blogs for Tips
They Done Found Us Out, Cletus: Intrepid Internet Detective Figures Out Our Master Plan
Shock: Josh Marshall Almost Mentions Sarin Discovery in Iraq
Leather-Clad Biker Freaks Terrorize Australian Town
When Clinton Was President, Torture Was Cool
What Wonkette Means When She Explains What Tina Brown Means
Wonkette's Stand-Up Act
Wankette HQ Gay-Rumors Du Jour
Here's What's Bugging Me: Goose and Slider
My Own Micah Wright Style Confession of Dishonesty
Outraged "Conservatives" React to the FMA
An On-Line Impression of Dennis Miller Having Sex with a Kodiak Bear
The Story the Rightwing Media Refuses to Report!
Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)
News/Chat