Signs Of Backbone From House Republicans? UPDATE: Cantor Opposes The Senate Bill?

Both parties held caucus meetings today that are just breaking up. Joe Biden went to whip and rally the Democrats, while John Boehner said he was "in listening mode" and won't commit to support or oppose the Senate bill.

Now there's talk that the GOP will bring up the Senate's bill and amend it. No word on what that would entail from a policy perspective but it would mean the bill would have to go back to the Senate again.

One of the major problems with the Senate deal is it doesn't address spending cuts. As currently constructed the "tax only" portion of the cliff deal increases the debt by nearly $4 TRILLION over 10 years.

I think (I'm not a budget wonk) that is because under the baseline assumptions all the Bush rates were going to expire and by keeping them in place for those making under $400,000 all of that "lost" revenue is now counted as part of the deficit.

As an aside, baseline budgeting is horrible.

So what the GOP would get from the tax only deal is keeping the current rates for people under $400,000/year but getting tagged as tax hikers for anyone above that. Then Obama gets to come back and force the GOP to agree to the liberal idea that "tax cuts" (which they aren't, it's just continuing the rates as they have been for 12 years) have to be "paid for".

Of course the GOP will have no more leverage in two months than they do now, so it's very possible that the GOP loses its "tax cut" brand AND sees trillions added to the debt.

Obama never wanted a deal. This isn't about taxes and spending, it's about destroying the GOP. Unbelievably, it's an open question as to whether the GOP will continue to take part in it.

There's going to be another GOP caucus sometime today before Boehner decides how to proceed.

Will the GOP finally wise up or is this just bluster before the meek walk to their execution?

Update: Hmmmmmmmm

Rep Spencer Bacchus, R-AL, says consensus is building in GOP House meeting to amend cliff bill and send it back to Sen w/some spending cuts.

Well this is very interesting, very interesting.

Per republicans, cantor is opposing the fiscal cliff bill during GOP conference. Boehner laying out "options." Not good signs at all

Cantor has literally stood side by side with Boehner throughout this process. People took that to mean that there was no way he'd challenge for the Speakership but if they split here? This might force Boehner into opposing the plan (if he wasn't predisposed to do that anyway).

Layers and layers.

Side note: People keep saying that revenue raising bills must originate in the House not the Senate. This is true BUT...the bill the Senate passed last night was H.R. 8 which passed the House and sent to the Senate for consideration. What the Senate did was "amend" it (which the Constitution allows) and sent it back. Now the Senate "amendment" was a complete substitution but that's been done before.

You may not like it but it's perfectly acceptable according the Constitution.

Posted by: DrewM. at 02:33 PM



Comments

1 @robertcostaNRO Breaking: Leaving mtg, Rep. Spencer Bachus says deal will "go back to the Senate."

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 02:37 PM (YjDyJ)

2 M80, can you re-post the spending graph that was in an earlier thread?

Posted by: fluffy at January 01, 2013 02:38 PM (z9HTb)

3 I say we gain nothing by passing this atrocious bill. We'll be blamed anyway so let it burn...

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at January 01, 2013 02:39 PM (9+ccr)

4 Just cave already. We all know you will eventually. Why do you insist on prolonging the agony?

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 02:39 PM (HDgX3)

5 Doesn't it have to go back to the Senate anyway so that they can pretend that it originated in the House as required by that quaint document that no one pays attention to anymore? Or did the Senate do that gimmick of taking up a House bill that marginally deals with spending or taxation and then strip everything out of it?

Posted by: somebody else, not me at January 01, 2013 02:40 PM (nZvGM)

6 2 M80, can you re-post the spending graph that was in an earlier thread?

http://bit.ly/VgT9hy

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 02:40 PM (YjDyJ)

7 As an aside, baseline budgeting is horrible.


Here's a question, since there's been no budget for fucking ever, what are they baselining from at the moment?

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Totes waiting until after March Madness. at January 01, 2013 02:40 PM (Gk3SS)

8 I can't wait for ace to get back to full time blogging so we don't have to keep seeing DrewM and Gabe pmsing about this all the time.

Posted by: buzzion at January 01, 2013 02:41 PM (GULKT)

9 Obama has said repeatedly - on the campaign trail - he wants $3 of cuts for $2 of taxes. Why the fuck can't Boehner get a tape of that and play it on a continuous loop in the house and at every press conference he gives?

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 02:41 PM (HDgX3)

10 I think (I'm not a budget wonk) that is because under the baseline assumptions all the Bush rates were going to expire and by keeping them in place for those making under $400,000 all of that "lost" revenue is now counted as part of the deficit.

That is correct.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 02:41 PM (YjDyJ)

11 Whatever tax cuts they manage to get will be horseshit--accounting gimmicks and delayed cuts that will never materialize.

Let it burn. Throw the GOP onto the blaze as well.

Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 02:42 PM (0DlnM)

12 Give Obama his spending cut ratio - and take it out of programs that he supports, too.

Give him a taste of the poison he's been dishing out and see if he'll torpedo the bill his VP negotiated.

Posted by: turfmonster at January 01, 2013 02:42 PM (Y27LS)

13 Bread & Circuses from Bimbettes & Himbos.

Posted by: FURPC at January 01, 2013 02:43 PM (0ImZM)

14 I don't want spending cuts as part of this deal. They would be ephemeral anyway. Get the permanent rates set and signed and then go into the sequestration debate. A debate we could always walk away from.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 01, 2013 02:43 PM (QupBk)

15 O/T

9 people died as bus crashed on icy Oregon road.
It's time we end this madness.
No more buses.
No more ice.
No more Oregon.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 02:43 PM (HDgX3)

16 Can we add a band and some deck chairs?

Posted by: America Sinking at January 01, 2013 02:44 PM (vbh31)

17 Note to self: Still boned.

Posted by: FURPC at January 01, 2013 02:44 PM (0ImZM)

18 Thanks.


M80, did you get hold of Ace?

Posted by: fluffy at January 01, 2013 02:44 PM (z9HTb)

19 Happy fucking new year.

Posted by: TheOculists at January 01, 2013 02:44 PM (a4CUi)

20 If the House GOP has guts, they will amend the bill to make Bush-era tax rates permanent at all income levels and dare the Senate and President to block it. If they have guts AND brains, they will table this bill until the Senate passes a companion spending cuts bill - and then pass THAT bill and get the President's signature BEFORE taking up the tax bill again.

Posted by: stuiec at January 01, 2013 02:44 PM (KFLUn)

21 The Aristocrats!

Posted by: Just the Punchline at January 01, 2013 02:45 PM (QupBk)

22 5 -

Sshhh! Drew wants to pretend there is still some value in having Republicans in Washington. You'll crush his little heart if you foul this post with facts that show the R's to be willing accomplices in this phony deal.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 01, 2013 02:45 PM (BeSEI)

23 20
If the House GOP has guts, they will amend the bill to make Bush-era tax
rates permanent at all income levels and dare the Senate and President
to block it. If they have guts AND brains, they will table this bill
until the Senate passes a companion spending cuts bill - and then pass
THAT bill and get the President's signature BEFORE taking up the tax
bill again.

Posted by: stuiec at January 01, 2013 02:44 PM (KFLUn)

_________________
I'd go one better. Lower all rates under $75K by 1% and leave everything else as is permanently.
Dare Obama and Reid to block a middle class tax cut. Double fucking dare them.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 02:46 PM (HDgX3)

24 Mr. Moo Moo (and fuck you for making me type that),

The ratio was 3:1, recommended by his very own debt commission. He scolded Romney about it during a debate saying that even this wasn't good enough for Mitt.

Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 02:46 PM (0DlnM)

25 24
Mr. Moo Moo (and fuck you for making me type that),

The ratio was
3:1, recommended by his very own debt commission. He scolded Romney
about it during a debate saying that even this wasn't good enough for
Mitt.


Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 02:46 PM (0DlnM)

_____________
Even better.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 02:47 PM (HDgX3)

26 The Aristocrats!


So Obama says to Boehner, "You're not really here to hunt, are you?"

Posted by: fluffy at January 01, 2013 02:48 PM (z9HTb)

27 9 Obama has said repeatedly - on the campaign trail - he wants $3 of cuts for $2 of taxes. Why the fuck can't Boehner get a tape of that and play it on a continuous loop in the house and at every press conference he gives?

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 02:41 PM (HDgX3)

Our leaders, their aides, and their consultants have barely made any arguments about spending cuts at any point in this fight. Why do you expect that to be any different.

It bears repeating a hundred times: if you are in any position in our leadership and have not been arguing why spending is the cause of the deficits during this fight, I don't care what your experience is...I don't care what schools you went to...I don't care what your resume looks like or what awards and honors you have obtained in life--you are a moron of Uranus-sized proportions.

Posted by: AD at January 01, 2013 02:49 PM (wxX5N)

28 18 M80, did you get hold of Ace?

Not yet.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 02:49 PM (YjDyJ)

29 See here is where a thinking party would hit back against this notion of "tax cuts have to be payed for."

What share is due the government?

Because on the current trajectory, its going to have to be 100% share in the not too distant future.

Posted by: General Woundwort at January 01, 2013 02:50 PM (zOP5o)

30 So Obama says to Boehner, "You want to go camping?"

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at January 01, 2013 02:50 PM (yiIja)

31 All we have to do is get the House to stall until noon on Thursday. All bills under consideration by the 112th Congress become void when the 113th Congress gets sworn in.

So any bill will once again be promulgated in the House.

Posted by: AZ Hi Desert at January 01, 2013 02:51 PM (ial2b)

32 Who the fuck is Cantor? And did you guys hear Kim and Kanye are having a baby?

Posted by: Obama Voter at January 01, 2013 02:52 PM (HDgX3)

33 House Boy Boehner: "On the negative side, we're going to raise your taxes and increase spending. On the positive side, look at all this shiny new stuff Washington is giving you!"


Posted by: BurtTC at January 01, 2013 02:53 PM (BeSEI)

34 And did you guys hear Kim and Kanye are having a baby?

Something must be done!

Posted by: Obama Voter #2 at January 01, 2013 02:53 PM (vbh31)

35 5 Doesn't it have to go back to the Senate anyway so that they can pretend that it originated in the House as required by that quaint document that no one pays attention to anymore?

The Senate amended H.R.8, an extension of the Bush tax cuts which was passed in August.

http://1.usa.gov/12VNt1X

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 02:55 PM (YjDyJ)

36 Not yet.


A slacker, he is.

Posted by: with pointy, green ears, has fluffy at January 01, 2013 02:55 PM (z9HTb)

37 Here's a question, since there's been no budget for fucking ever, what are they baselining from at the moment?
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Totes waiting until after March Madness. at January 01, 2013 02:40 PM (Gk3SS)


They are baselining off the 2009 budget, which included TARP and Stimulus 1.

Posted by: AZ Hi Desert at January 01, 2013 02:56 PM (ial2b)

38 OMG you guys did you see that Leo Decaprio is anti-gun? Like OMG. He is so right. Guns hurt people. We should like not have them anymore. If Leo is for it, I am so for it it. I'll tweet, tumblr, pinterest my thoughts asap on it.

And what's all this fiscal cliff stuff people are talking about on facebook? Is that like a new movie with Jamie Foxx? Sounds so exciting.

Posted by: Obama Voter at January 01, 2013 02:56 PM (HDgX3)

39 LIB and SID ....now back to football.

Posted by: Paladin at January 01, 2013 02:57 PM (B5UQ6)

40 "You may not like it but it's perfectly acceptable according the Constitution."

Huh? What is this Constitutional you keep referring to? What does exercise have to do with raising taxes on the evil rich?

Posted by: NYT at January 01, 2013 02:57 PM (ndlFj)

41 How about congress passes a BUDGET like the old days?!?!?! There's an idea.

Posted by: SmileyNH at January 01, 2013 02:58 PM (hlZx/)

42 I'm going to start baseline budgeting at my house. That means I will never go broke, right?

Posted by: ObamaNaut no. 2555535 at January 01, 2013 02:58 PM (wAQA5)

43 We probably haven't yet hit BoneCon 3 yet.

Posted by: FURPC at January 01, 2013 02:58 PM (0ImZM)

44
"Today, the House ushers in a new era of responsible spending, which for too long has not been a part of the national discussion by either side of the aisle. From this day forward, Washington will no longer spend more than it takes in. We have passed a budget that meets all of President Obama's criteria for cutting the deficit in half, which he stated he would do during his first term in office. In so doing, we are happy to announce that deficit spending will be no more. We will begin to conduct the nation's business just as American families responsibly handle their budgets."

Stuff We'll Never Hear from DC, ever.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at January 01, 2013 02:59 PM (yiIja)

45 "There is also some regret among Republicans about the party defeating Speaker John Boehner’s 'Plan B' before the holidays, which would have raised taxes on millionaires, whereas the bill the Senate passed around 2 a.m. New Year’s Day raises taxes on households making more than $450,000."

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 02:59 PM (YjDyJ)

46 Boehner: folding like Walmart lawn furniture.... Once again. Best thing for GOP to do is amend it with massive spending cuts, pass it and recess. Turn it into a crap sandwich, put it on a plate and send it to O and Mooch.

I am so sick of these Wussies. They forgot that they won the House in Nov.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at January 01, 2013 02:59 PM (n8LUb)

47 The GOP and Independents need to start a NATIONWIDE BOYCOTT of paying Federal Taxes until there is a.) a balanced budget, b.) a plan for paying off the debt, c.) a National Economic Policy inline with the constitution, d.) a National Energy Policy, e.) a plan for restructuring the SS and Meidcaid/Medicare issue.

Very Simple and THE ONLY SOLUTION outside a full on revolution. the GOP has let us down (again) and the Dems will never see the light until it is dark.

BOYCOTT FEDERAL TAXES NOW.

The IRS can't get to all of us. Remember, they are government employees.

Posted by: Dana at January 01, 2013 03:00 PM (w9jxV)

48 You can't draw a line in the sand without a sack.

Posted by: FURPC at January 01, 2013 03:00 PM (0ImZM)

49 Drew, I don't know what you're smoking, but the idea this is a "destroy the GOP" deal, is flat out insanity for anyone but the hardest of hardcore political junkies.

Please stop.

Posted by: deadrody at January 01, 2013 03:02 PM (kLSvx)

50 @rebeccagberg When asked about chances deal will be amended, Latourette says, “I think it’s moving in that direction.” Says there will be no whipping

@rebeccagberg Asked what would happen next if the House chooses to amend the deal, a Senate Democratic leadership aide responds: “Nothing. We’re done.”

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 03:03 PM (YjDyJ)

51 You may not like it but it's perfectly acceptable according the Constitution.

I'm thinking an Amendment to put an end to these procedural end runs around the intent of the Constitution are long overdue.

...oh wait, they'll just ignore it like they do the rest of the document.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at January 01, 2013 03:05 PM (mbxHg)

52 Trying to make this some kind of omnibus bill will just make it worse.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 01, 2013 03:05 PM (QupBk)

53 "Rep Spencer Bacchus, R-AL, says consensus is building in GOP House
meeting to amend cliff bill and send it back to Sen w/some spending
cuts."

To hell with that.

Send it back with cuts and with FAT NEW TAXES on blue interests.

Repeal the deduction for state income taxes. All of those high income types in blue states like New York and California can bend over for the tax equivalent of the barbed cock of Satan.

Then dare the Democrats not to pass it. They want new taxes? Here they are!

Posted by: torquewrench at January 01, 2013 03:06 PM (gqT4g)

54 Exit, stage left even!

Posted by: David Gregory at January 01, 2013 03:06 PM (CBkgt)

55 Pass a budget before raising any taxes.

Pass a budget before any more legislation.

Posted by: ALL_IS_LOST at January 01, 2013 03:08 PM (T/L2Z)

56 41
How about congress passes a BUDGET like the old days?!?!?! There's an idea.



Posted by: SmileyNH at January 01, 2013 02:58 PM (hlZx/)

____________
OLD days? Like back in the days of slavery? Racist

Posted by: Chris Matthews at January 01, 2013 03:08 PM (HDgX3)

57 Boehner's "in listening mode"?

Way to lead, you old drunk

Posted by: Albie Damned at January 01, 2013 03:09 PM (Yhu4q)

58 Heavens preserve us all from "strategists" like DrewM.

Posted by: Jeff B., violently ill on New Year's Day and surlier than usual at January 01, 2013 03:09 PM (cVvbj)

59 Way to lead, you old drunk
Posted by: Albie Damned at January 01, 2013 03:09 PM (Yhu4q)

Clear and concise.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 01, 2013 03:10 PM (l86i3)

60 Like I said just don't pass this mess. No matter what happens the Republicans will get the blame anyway....

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at January 01, 2013 03:10 PM (9+ccr)

61 remove tax free status of their tax-exempt political army; the foundations like media matters. No more tax-exempt associations. Would this not hit the libtards worse since they have more and larger ones?

Posted by: Yip at January 01, 2013 03:10 PM (/jHWN)

62 remove tax free status of their tax-exempt political army; the foundations like media matters. No more tax-exempt associations. Would this not hit the libtards worse since they have more and larger ones?
Posted by: Yip at January 01, 2013 03:10 PM (/jHWN)

Why yes, yes it would.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 01, 2013 03:11 PM (l86i3)

63 49 -

You're right. This isn't about destroying the GOP. It's about saving the GOP in spite of the fact that the Party is no better than the Dems. It's about the Party lining up to smoke its share of Washington crack, while pretending to be the Party of smaller government.

Boehner wants to be the permanent minority leader of a Party that is free of those meddlesome Tea Party types, and other assorted conservatives.

Let the GOP brand name live on and on!!

Posted by: BurtTC at January 01, 2013 03:11 PM (BeSEI)

64 Pass a budget before raising any taxes. Pass a budget before any more legislation.
Posted by: ALL_IS_LOST at January 01, 2013 03:08 PM (T/L2Z)

Oh, hardy har har.

Posted by: Prince Harry Reid of the Pomegranates at January 01, 2013 03:11 PM (wAQA5)

65 Even better, put some stuff in the reconciliation that Democrats really really do not want to have to vote on in public right now.

I have a libtard acquaintance who is obsessed with her 401(k).

I've told her about how Big Labor have plans to nationalize those private retirement holdings, in order to bail out their own empty pension funds that the mobbed-up union bosses have looted.

She doesn't believe me. It would shake her world view to the core. Even though Pelosi and others have been very open about their desire to see this happen.

So put it to a vote. Stick 401(k) nationalization in the reconcilation. Then when the huge firecracker in a henhouse public furor results, say, "Hey, Nancy Pelosi said she wanted this, we were merely accommodating her wishes."

Then force a measure to permanently prohibit any such step, and make the Dems vote it down in public. Big Labor will just love that, you can be sure.

Think like Breitbart. Start monkeywrenching the fuckers.


Posted by: torquewrench at January 01, 2013 03:13 PM (gqT4g)

66 stop allowing for tax deduction for state and municipal taxes. That will hit the coasts ( democrat havens ) and city dwellers the hardest. Also get rid of intrest deduction on anything but primary residence.. or abolish it completely

Posted by: Yip at January 01, 2013 03:14 PM (/jHWN)

67 You can't draw a line in the sand without a sack.
Posted by: FURPC at January 01, 2013 03:00 PM (0ImZM)
-----------------------------------------------------------
And a crayon!

Posted by: Joey Biden at January 01, 2013 03:14 PM (jucos)

68 Cantor must be considering challenging Boehner. Once upon a time I thought the Cantor challenge to Boehner would be a good thing. No more - I don't believe in unicorns any more. Cantor is a career politician and has shown himself to be one in aligning himself with Boehner through all of the crap that has gone on since the election. He is only out to feather his own nest like every other no-count professional politician in Washington. Ryan may be our only hope at this point.

Posted by: georgeofthedesert at January 01, 2013 03:15 PM (Eq2MX)

69 "You may not like it but it's perfectly acceptable according the Constitution. "

This old thing?

Posted by: Lady Liberty at January 01, 2013 03:16 PM (/aQPW)

70 Posted by: georgeofthedesert at January 01, 2013 03:15 PM (Eq2MX)


Cantor is an establishment fuck. Just not a drunk stupid establishment fuck.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 01, 2013 03:16 PM (l86i3)

71 >>Heavens preserve us all from "strategists" like DrewM.

I see analyzing, not strategerizing

Posted by: Albie Damned at January 01, 2013 03:16 PM (Yhu4q)

72 So if Reid is saying the Senate is done, that means they are daring the R's to not pass this, WANTING the R's to not pass this, and knowing how desperately Boehner wants a deal that can get through without causing a revolution in the Party.

Folks, Boehner is your enemy. He needs something to pass, and he wants to remain the leader of what's left of the R Party. It's a Party that doesn't include you.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 01, 2013 03:17 PM (BeSEI)

73 I am in the Let It Burn caucus. I have stopped caring about all things political. Nothing that is done now can ameliorate the damage that has been and will be done. I am just prepping for the crash. I wonder how many out there are like me......

Posted by: Truck Monkey at January 01, 2013 03:19 PM (jucos)

74 I am just prepping for the crash. I wonder how many out there are like me......

Raises hand...

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at January 01, 2013 03:20 PM (9+ccr)

75 >>'ve told her about how Big Labor have plans to nationalize those private
retirement holdings, in order to bail out their own empty pension funds
that the mobbed-up union bosses have looted.<<

I have heard from several people in-the-know who say this isn't some crazy, impossible scenario, but rather that the Dems have been trying to figure out how to do this. There actually have been communications with major "news" organizations on how to sell this to us... the idiots

Posted by: Albie Damned at January 01, 2013 03:20 PM (Yhu4q)

76 One of the major problems with the Senate deal is it doesn't address
spending cuts. As currently constructed the "tax only" portion of the
cliff deal increases the debt by nearly $4 TRILLION over 10 years.

The House GOP can propose solving this minor problem with a small revision of the bill: add a provision sending for ratification by the states an amendment to the states requiring a balanced budget.

Sure, this will require achieving a 2/3rds vote rather than a simple majority, and also require sending it back to the Senate, but I think the GOP will be unified in passing the Senate bill with this minor modification. I think all the Senate Republicans would be on board bill, too. Are the Dems against balanced budgets in this time of crisis?

Let's see if the Dems want balanced budgets, or not, in the future and let's see if the States are serious about the Federal government getting its House in order.

Posted by: Dusty at January 01, 2013 03:20 PM (KR2Ca)

77 H.R. 8 was a tax/revenue bill? .. and the Senate just rewrote it?

Well ok then.

....and if the President doesn't like it he can just issue executive orders? What's the problem?

Wasn't it back in the bad old Nixon days that the idea of the office of the president refusing to spend money authorized by congress got set straight by congress?

... and that debt limit thingy...Geithner can just shift money around from one account to another and congress says nothing...because...?

Posted by: Skandia Recluse at January 01, 2013 03:20 PM (GnTnu)

78 I, pssh, was boooooorn above (burp) and still like going to... Baaaahhhhhrs... burp. Can I bummmmmmm a smoke?

Posted by: Foster Brooks Boehner at January 01, 2013 03:21 PM (jucos)

79 So take "H.R.8" as passed by the Senate, amend it in its entirety, replacing it with Republican priorities, pass it in the House, and send it back to the Senate. Bonus question: if no one tells Reid, will he notice the substitution?

Posted by: Watcher at January 01, 2013 03:21 PM (RQfiQ)

80 2am this morning? I wonder just how much drinking is involved.

Posted by: by any means necessary at January 01, 2013 03:21 PM (EovMP)

81 73 -

I have been since early November. I kept some hope that, even though I couldn't really see how, maybe a President Romney might work to make things better.

Now, it's silly to think these reprobates in Washington are on our side.

Let it burn (first time I've typed those words here, I believe).

Posted by: BurtTC at January 01, 2013 03:22 PM (BeSEI)

82 @robertcostaNRO Note: allies of Cantor say not to make too much of Cantor's comments, says he's not brking w/ boehner, just pushing for cuts

@robertcostaNRO Cantor allies (members) also add that Boehner is not warming to Sen deal, either, so context is key. Boehner may oppose, too. Wait and see.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 03:22 PM (YjDyJ)

83 2am this morning? I wonder just how much drinking is involved.
Posted by: by any means necessary at January 01, 2013 03:21 PM (EovMP)

Oh hell, they were puking by then.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, aka Jack July author of Amy Lynn available on Amazon. at January 01, 2013 03:22 PM (l86i3)

84 Fone still on charger but had to stop in and say that for the most part I'm loving the post play sportsmanship in the NU vs Georgia game.
The way it's supposed to be.

Posted by: teej still says go K-State at January 01, 2013 03:23 PM (pBcpe)

85 You may not like it but it's perfectly acceptable according the Constitution.
Posted by DrewM.


Something that sidesteps the spirit of the law can only be defended in a immoral fashion.

Yes, I know, morals in the wasteland of DC is like water in a desert but don't think that what a handful of men in black robes declare to be constitution is Constitutional.

How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 01, 2013 03:23 PM (KDq5l)

86 76
One of the major problems with the Senate deal is it doesn't address

spending cuts. As currently constructed the "tax only" portion of the

cliff deal increases the debt by nearly $4 TRILLION over 10 years.

That was supposed to be in italics as it was a quote from Drew M's post. I don't know why it didn't take when posted.

Posted by: Dusty at January 01, 2013 03:24 PM (KR2Ca)

87 How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg?
Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 01, 2013 03:23 PM (KDq5l)
---------------------------------------------------
Male or female?

Posted by: Truck Monkey at January 01, 2013 03:25 PM (jucos)

88 Posted by: Dusty at January 01, 2013

WTF. It didn't italicize this time, either.

Posted by: Dusty at January 01, 2013 03:25 PM (KR2Ca)

89 True/False Quiz:

A RINO politician can always be counted upon to appear to display principles whenever there is no real personal or political cost involved.


A RINO politician can always be counted upon to disregard
principles whenever there is any real personal or political cost
involved.


A RINO politician can never be bought--but they can be rented quite cheaply.


Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB (for the Children) at January 01, 2013 03:27 PM (Cnqmv)

90 Do not pass anything! They should go home. Start the new year with budgets, just how many years has it been? Four now?

These people are supposed to represent us, but they only want to keep their power!

Posted by: CarolT at January 01, 2013 03:27 PM (z4WKX)

91 Posted by: Dusty at January 01, 2013 03:24 PM (KR2Ca)

Pixy blows away any apparent formatting from a copy and you have to re-insert the BB Code to get the roiginal back.

Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB (for the Children) at January 01, 2013 03:28 PM (Cnqmv)

92 DrewM needs some prozac.

Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 03:28 PM (5Jhmf)

93 These people are supposed to represent us, but they only want to keep their power!
Posted by: CarolT at January 01, 2013 03:27 PM (z4WKX)
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm shocked, shocked to find out that gambling is going on in here.

Posted by: Inspector Renault at January 01, 2013 03:29 PM (jucos)

94 >>Something that sidesteps the spirit of the law can only be defended in a immoral fashion.

Yes,
I know, morals in the wasteland of DC is like water in a desert but
don't think that what a handful of men in black robes declare to be
constitution is Constitutional.<<


Uh, oh....ooops

Posted by: John Roberts, Chief Justice and Wannabe Media Darling at January 01, 2013 03:30 PM (Yhu4q)

95 "You may not like it but it's perfectly acceptable according the Constitution."

No, in fact it is a violation of the Constitution. No rational person reads "amend" as "replace entirely."

Just one more slick spot on the slippery slope.

Posted by: TallDave at January 01, 2013 03:30 PM (lNW+B)

96 Something that sidesteps the spirit of the law can only be defended in a immoral fashion.
Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 01, 2013 03:23 PM (KDq5l)

It's not a sidestep. H.R. 8 was a revenue bill, it extended all the tax rates for a year. The Senate amended it as the exact words of Article I, Section 7, Clause 1 allows.

What was a sidestep was when they did it for ObamaCare. The House bill they hollowed out wasn't even a revenue bill (a condition not in the Constitution), it had to do with veterans' housing. That was honoring the letter, not the spirit of the Constitution. This is the system working as laid out.

Posted by: DrewM. at January 01, 2013 03:31 PM (AFi9e)

97 I'm with Toby above. Get the tax rates done. Period.

We have the debt limit to hold over Barky for the next round that will be ALL about spending.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 01, 2013 03:31 PM (UTq/I)

98 These fake attempts at compromise are nothing more than opportunities to wash each others balls while stuffing their coat pockets.

There aren't 2 parties anymore, and that building is nothing more than an over sized bathhouse.

LIB

Posted by: ontherocks at January 01, 2013 03:33 PM (aZ6ew)

99 Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB (for the Children) at January 01, 2013 03:28 PM

Thanks for the tip, Hrothgar.

Posted by: Dusty at January 01, 2013 03:34 PM (KR2Ca)

100 Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 01, 2013 03:23 PM (KDq5l)

If there were such a thing as honest politicians, this back and forth "amendment" approach is actually a pretty good methodology. There is nothing that says the House cannot re-re-write the entire bill as well and send it back to the Senate. In the exchange process, the policy concepts should have been language should have been converted into legislative form so that the contents of the bill are available in close to final form.


Having said that, with the bunch of thieves, miscreants, shysters, and drunks currently in the Congress, I wouldn't trust them to write their own names in the presence of family and witnesses.

Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB (for the Children) at January 01, 2013 03:34 PM (Cnqmv)

101 Crush the GOP. Happy new year everyone!

Posted by: Olaf at January 01, 2013 03:34 PM (jKeMG)

102 "Side note: People keep saying that revenue raising bills must originate in the House not the Senate. This is true BUT...the bill the Senate passed last night was H.R. 8 which passed the House and sent to the Senate for consideration. What the Senate did was "amend" it (which the Constitution allows) and sent it back. Now the Senate "amendment" was a complete substitution but that's been done before."

Yes, everyone remembers that lovely Christmas eve tax bill which was clothed in health care. Thus the need for things to be done more provincially. If you recall, that was the Senate's baby.

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 03:34 PM (/b8+5)

103
@50 Says there will be no whipping.

That's the problem, right there. They're all acting like irresponsible children with Mommy's credit card.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at January 01, 2013 03:34 PM (yiIja)

104 @15

Outlaw automatic buses!

Posted by: Billy Bob, at the cold beach at January 01, 2013 03:35 PM (Cydud)

105 What was a sidestep was when they did it for
ObamaCare. The House bill they hollowed out wasn't even a revenue bill
(a condition not in the Constitution), it had to do with veterans'
housing. That was honoring the letter, not the spirit of the
Constitution. This is the system working as laid out.


Posted by: DrewM. at January 01, 2013 03:31 PM (AFi9e)

_______________
PA has a law that says no bill shall contain shit that isn't related. So you can't have a bill that deals with health care and then throw an amendment in there that deals with funding for a new zoo in Philadelphia. This is how politicians get to play the "he voted 19 times to cut aid to needy children" since there's some amendment on a bill to build a new highway that has funding for "needy children". If you the oppose the highway, you also oppose "needy children".

We need something like this at the federal level too. No more bills with 19 ammendments covering every conceivable issue out there. No more 2700 page "health care" bills that stipulate how student loans are to be managed.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 03:36 PM (HDgX3)

106 I just saw Lincoln yesterday....

This debacle reminds me of the horsetrading that finally led to the passage of the 13th amendment.

Only this is a big nothing burger. It will solve no fiscal problem. It grows the Leviathan. It will not save the Republic or empower the poor or fix the economy.

It's TFG destroying the opposing party (and the country too in the bargain).

Posted by: PJ at January 01, 2013 03:36 PM (ZWaLo)

107 We have the debt limit to hold over Barky for the next round that will be ALL about spending.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 01, 2013 03:31 PM (UTq/I)



I truly envy your lack of cynicism and your boundless optimism!

Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB (for the Children) at January 01, 2013 03:36 PM (Cnqmv)

108
Side note: People keep saying that revenue raising bills must
originate in the House not the Senate. This is true BUT...the bill the
Senate passed last night was H.R. 8 which passed the House and sent to
the Senate for consideration. What the Senate did was "amend" it (which the Constitution allows) and sent it back. Now the Senate "amendment" was a complete substitution but that's been done before.


You may not like it but it's perfectly acceptable according the Constitution.



The constitution gives various power to various entities. One of those powers, originating revenue raising bills, belongs to the House. Now it's true that the Senate can game the system by hollowing out some unrelated House bill and replacing it with taxes. But, if the House wanted to protect the power that was given to it by the constitution, it could simply refuse to take up any bill that was subjected to this abuse of power by the Senate. Unfortunately, the House is filled with craven scumbags rather than those who believe in our constitution.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at January 01, 2013 03:37 PM (IN7k+)

109 Can I be sick of the idiot back-loaded 10 year CRs?
.
It's a complete lie, none of them even lasy one year, and even if they did they would only be saying "somebody else deal with it later."
.
And baseline budgeting should be a felony.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's mobile at January 01, 2013 03:38 PM (YZizW)

110 All through the holidays a parade of leftists/liberals/democrats paraded through all giddy over this bill. They said "the republicans can't break their little tax pledge so they've made a deal to let us go over the cliff and then they'll amend things afterward. It will insure they don't break their pledges and they think they won't get the blame but we know better". Had to be some kind of talking point, too many parrots using the exact same verbiage/argument.

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 03:38 PM (/b8+5)

111 ahuh, ahuh, ahuh, daaaa okay.

Posted by: Weeping Boner at January 01, 2013 03:39 PM (N2yhW)

112 What they're not telling you is that in ten years, 4 trillion Obamadollaz will be worth about $50 Zimbabwean. So it's really nothing to worry about.

Posted by: Corpse-man at January 01, 2013 03:39 PM (XJ6Zy)

113 Unfortunately, the House is filled with craven scumbags rather than those who believe in our constitution.



Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at January 01, 2013 03:37 PM (IN7k+)

________________
I don't think it's even that. I think most politicians simply don't know anything about the constitution.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 03:39 PM (HDgX3)

114 We have the debt limit to hold over Barky for the next round that will be ALL about spending.

Brilliant. How did that work out last time? Or the time before that?

Posted by: Methos at January 01, 2013 03:40 PM (hO9ad)

115 CNN has some guy on comparing this to desegregation?

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 03:42 PM (/b8+5)

116

Side note: People keep saying that revenue raising bills must
originate in the House not the Senate. This is true BUT...the bill the
Senate passed last night was H.R. 8 which passed the House and sent to
the Senate for consideration. What the Senate did was "amend" it (which the Constitution allows) and sent it back. Now the Senate "amendment" was a complete substitution but that's been done before.

You may not like it but it's perfectly acceptable according the Constitution.







The only way out of this is to exercise iron discipline in the House, and pass absolutely nothing until the budget is completed. Passing a number of other innocuous bills just allows the senate to strip them down and send them back.
The House gets to decide "do we fund the government at all?" or not. It could choose "no" by passing nothing at all. That's the only real advantage the House has as to the power of the purse.

Posted by: Revenant at January 01, 2013 03:42 PM (W7GH9)

117 Posted by: Corpse-man at January 01, 2013 03:39 PM (XJ6Zy)

I have become convinced that having my grand-children grow up in caves without electricity and existing on a forager's diet of roots and berries is a good thing.

Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB (for the Children) at January 01, 2013 03:42 PM (Cnqmv)

118 It's not a sidestep. H.R. 8 was a revenue bill, it extended all the tax rates for a year. The Senate amended it as the exact words of Article I, Section 7, Clause 1 allows.
Posted by: DrewM.


Once amended it is not the same bill. End of story.

Argue all technicalities you wish, not only are we here in the rabble not compelled to ignore the truth, we are compelled to state the fucking truth as often as possible.

The more layers of bullshit you are willing to accept as necessary or pragmatic, the more likely this Republic will suffocate.

We don't live our lives as the pols in Washington are conducting themselves. In our lives, we aren't willing to swallow endless amounts of bullshit for some intangible reward that never comes. Why are our representatives held to a different standard?

Bullshit is bullshit and no amount of calling it happy fun stuff can change that.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 01, 2013 03:43 PM (KDq5l)

119 @rebeccagberg A House GOP leadership aide tells me re: amending the deal: "The House will work its will. …" (1/2)

@rebeccagberg Aide 2/2: If House amends bill "and Democratic leaders choose to go over the cliff, then they will have to answer to the American people."

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 03:44 PM (YjDyJ)

120 "Drew, I don't know what you're smoking, but the idea this is a "destroy the GOP" deal, is flat out insanity for anyone but the hardest of hardcore political junkies."

This is satire, right?

Posted by: FOAF at January 01, 2013 03:44 PM (Kz60W)

121 Once amended it is not the same bill. End of story.

If you're arguing that no revenue bill may be amended by the Senate, that's just ridiculous.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 01, 2013 03:45 PM (QupBk)

122 omg death of deh Republik

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 03:45 PM (8HhF2)

123 I don't think it's even that. I think most politicians simply don't know anything about the constitution.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 03:39 PM (HDgX3)



I think most politicians are too lazy to learn about, much less try to understand, Our Constitution and that makes them craven scumbags in my book.

Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB (for the Children) at January 01, 2013 03:45 PM (Cnqmv)

124 What about the massive marriage penalty?! $400k for singles and $450k for married couples!? Come on! The repubs should throw it out based on that alone!

Posted by: Bon Qui Qui at January 01, 2013 03:45 PM (AjZV3)

125 weft cut-loop, you are clearly not in the Law profession.

and HEAR HEAR

excellent post at 118 there.

Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at January 01, 2013 03:46 PM (J6kXj)

126 I have become convinced that having my grand-children grow up in caves without electricity and existing on a forager's diet of roots and berries is a good thing.

Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB (for the Children) at January 01, 2013 03:42 PM (Cnqmv)
----------------------------------------------------------
Grandchildren? I am going to discourage my children from procreating.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at January 01, 2013 03:46 PM (jucos)

127 107 -

Same here. I used to get mad at some of these guys. I don't anymore. It's not that I think they are any less wrong than I always have, it's just... it would be nice to have that faith.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 01, 2013 03:46 PM (BeSEI)

128 Obama could simultaneously want to "destroy the GOP" and think his ideology of higher taxes + higher spending is super-swell, politics can be simultaneously cynical and principled

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 03:46 PM (8HhF2)

129 Why would anyone even WANT to be a Republican leader? If you try to be pragmatic and actually get things accomplished all you get is shit from the more-conservative-than-thou crowd. Please the hyper-idealists and get nothing done and lose in the court of overall public opinion. Constant bullshit rom "your own people".

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 03:46 PM (XDC0v)

130 124 -

not just that but deduction losses begin at $300 for a family. that's extremely hard on me, since I am a freelancer second income and do tend to have some pretty big expenses now and again

probably wouldn't be worth it for me to work anymore, as the "second earner"

Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at January 01, 2013 03:47 PM (J6kXj)

131 So, send it back with one amendment: zero-based budgeting.

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at January 01, 2013 03:47 PM (CeNUw)

132 129
Why would anyone even WANT to be a Republican leader? If you try to be
pragmatic and actually get things accomplished all you get is shit from
the more-conservative-than-thou crowd. Please the hyper-idealists and
get nothing done and lose in the court of overall public opinion.
Constant bullshit rom "your own people".

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 03:46 PM (XDC0v)

_______________
Getting $41 of new spending for $1 of cuts is "get something done"? If that's the definition of success, I want failure.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 03:47 PM (HDgX3)

133 118 Once amended it is not the same bill. End of story.

"Section 7. Clause 1. All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills."

That is exactly what was done here.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 03:47 PM (YjDyJ)

134 Replace Boner with Mitt Romeny for House Speaker.

No requirement that the Speaker be a member of the house.

Get Mitt in there.

Get him to fuck Obama up.

Posted by: jeremiah God Damn Barack Obama the Mother Fucking SCoaMF wright at January 01, 2013 03:48 PM (+OTLF)

135 Am I too late to say fuck the GOP?

Posted by: Tonic Dog at January 01, 2013 03:48 PM (X/+QT)

136 No requirement that the Speaker be a member of the house.

let's have fun. Jim DeMint needs a newer gig.

Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at January 01, 2013 03:48 PM (J6kXj)

137 no one ever (understandably) wants to specify cuts, is the problem. it always stays very nebulous

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 03:49 PM (8HhF2)

138 Posted by: Truck Monkey at January 01, 2013 03:46 PM (jucos)

Too late for me and mine. My kids (who have already had kids) are working their fingers to the bone so that the illegals and slackers can get free stuff without working at all.

Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB (for the Children) at January 01, 2013 03:49 PM (Cnqmv)

139 Great movie clip for the fiscal cliff

Hint - not Thelma and Louise. Much better movie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IbStIb9XXw

Posted by: kbdabear at January 01, 2013 03:50 PM (wwsoB)

140 137
no one ever (understandably) wants to specify cuts, is the problem. it always stays very nebulous

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 03:49 PM (8HhF2)

________________
How about a simple 1/2 of 1% across the board cuts. Take what was spent in 2012. Spend 99.5% of it in 2013. Everyone suffers equally. And I use the term suffer very loosely since nobody will even notice a 1/2% cut.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 03:50 PM (HDgX3)

141
1. there is not 41 to 1 new taxes to spending cuts. It is 41 to 0, stop kidding yourselves.

2. Tiki Tiki Kabuki Bukkake Hockey Pucks.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 03:51 PM (69Mdf)

142 Only in Washington could a proposal that deepens the deficit by nearly $4 trillion over the next decade be viewed as a solution to the financial cliff.

Posted by: USA at January 01, 2013 03:51 PM (RIg+t)

143 "Why would anyone even WANT to be a Republican leader? If you try to be
pragmatic and actually get things accomplished all you get is shit from
the more-conservative-than-thou crowd."

Get things accomplished? Everything they touch they fuck up. Only thing the GOP has really done in the last fifty years is grow government, they "accomplish" much more and the nation will collapse.

Posted by: lowandslow at January 01, 2013 03:51 PM (GZitp)

144 120 Nope. Every refusal to vote Republican is another vote for a Democrat, with extremely rare exceptions. 1 million votes for Libertarian candidates handed Obama the presidency. Brilliant!!!

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 03:52 PM (XDC0v)

145 no one politician ever (understandably) wants to specify cuts, is the problem. it always stays very nebulous

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 03:49 PM (8HhF2)



True, and that lack of true leadership has lead us to this state of affairs.

Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB (for the Children) at January 01, 2013 03:52 PM (Cnqmv)

146 I am in the Let It Burn caucus. I have stopped caring about all things
political. Nothing that is done now can ameliorate the damage that has
been and will be done. I am just prepping for the crash. I wonder how
many out there are like me......

This. I am trying to retrain my brain to not give a shit. Very difficult, but probably healthier in the long run, nothing is going to change because I am stressing and spinning my wheels. Let it burn.

Posted by: Peaches at January 01, 2013 03:53 PM (kpCLl)

147 Most of the politicians took life paths which allowed them to say "they said there would be no math". Now they are faced with the math of their lifetimes. They might as well be reading a little know dialect from some foreign nation. They'd be better off, the government would then be forced to provide translators.

If they were taught Constitutional law by the guy who wants to get rid of the Constitution then of course they don't understand the Constitution. They got his version of it, not the real version, the real tenets, the real lifeblood of the document. For legislative bodies, both the house and the senate have precious few individuals with tenacity, intelligence, common sense and critical thinking skills.

This is what happens when you take a job no one else wants. The cream of the crop runs from government.

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 03:53 PM (/b8+5)

148 142
Only in Washington could a proposal that deepens the deficit by nearly
$4 trillion over the next decade be viewed as a solution to the
financial cliff.

Posted by: USA at January 01, 2013 03:51 PM (RIg+t)

____________________
New Year's Day. 80% of Americans made a resolution to lose weight.Let's do the Democrat plan. We'll eat 100 more calories every day. We won't exercise at all. We'll gain 10 lbs a year for the next 10 years. And we'll call the whole thing a great success.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 03:53 PM (HDgX3)

149 139 -

I knew it! But I thought you'd posted the final scene.

That's not the fiscal cliff though, that's what comes later.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 01, 2013 03:53 PM (BeSEI)

150 132 And you have that in spades

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 03:53 PM (XDC0v)

151 If you think what the Senate did was unconstitutional I suggest you follow the link to Article I, Section 7, Clause 1.

Or keep rambling on like an idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.

Either or.

Posted by: DrewM. at January 01, 2013 03:53 PM (AFi9e)

152 if your only standard for Republican success is a generic observation that "government has grown" (which can mean any number of things depending on how) in the past 50 years then yeah i guess they've been a miserable failure. it's a pretty simplistic view of things though.

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 03:54 PM (8HhF2)

153 "152
if your only standard for Republican success is a generic observation
that "government has grown" (which can mean any number of things
depending on how) in the past 50 years then yeah i guess they've been a
miserable failure. it's a pretty simplistic view of things though."

Break it down for us "simple folk" then. List all the GOP success we've enjoyed over the last fifty years?

Posted by: lowandslow at January 01, 2013 03:57 PM (GZitp)

154 And amid all this horse hockey,with trillions in debt, no budget since who the hell remembers when, and virtually no accountability, these assholes get a pay raise?

Maybe it's just me, but something seems a little off from my vantage point.

Posted by: ontherocks at January 01, 2013 03:58 PM (aZ6ew)

155 "Only thing the GOP has really done in the last fifty years is grow government" Saying things like this makes trying to discuss serious things a waste of time. So the same things would have happened if all three branches had been Democrat all this time... O.K. ... If I was a Republican leader who had to hear this utter bullshit from my team I'd have nothing but contempt for them too- Republicans deserve their leadership based on the way they treat them, sads to say.

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 03:58 PM (XDC0v)

156 151 -

Sometimes you are worse than Gabe.

I don't think either one of you are stupid, but you insist on arguing the wrong point, just to try to prove how right you are.

Of course the Senate CAN do it, but only if the House has decided to let them get away with essentially taking over the function.

Your Republicans. They let it happen.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 01, 2013 03:59 PM (BeSEI)

157 100 In the exchange process, the policy concepts should have been language should have been converted into legislative form so that the contents of the bill are available in close to final form.

Go to thomas.gov, search for H.R.8, then click "Text of Legislation" (it provides all the versions of the bill). "All Congressional Actions with Amendments" details the process and provides multiple links.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 03:59 PM (YjDyJ)

158 Or keep rambling on like an idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.

Either or.
Posted by: DrewM


Better a ranting idiot that a sophist defending an immoral system and demanding everyone join him in the bullshit wallow.

Either or.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 01, 2013 04:00 PM (KDq5l)

159 @130. Are any deductions still left in place?

Posted by: Bon Qui Qui at January 01, 2013 04:00 PM (AjZV3)

160 Posted by: ontherocks at January 01, 2013 03:58 PM (aZ6ew)

The media always pretends there have been budgets every year and when their guests say "of course there is a budget" no one ever disagrees with them. So, there is a budget cause that is the perception of the American people. You don't need a real budget, silly, we have a virtual budget and everyone loves pretending.

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 04:00 PM (/b8+5)

161 153 The Clinton welfare reforms. The Berlin Wall. The post-Carter military rebuilding. It isn't hard at all. In fact you have to work pretty hard to ignore it-

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 04:00 PM (XDC0v)

162 All of this was inevitable when we let the left destroy Palin.

That really emboldened them and showed them they could do literally anything and get away with it. They control the narrative and have made an object lesson of what happens to any politician who stands up for liberty or who is willing to tell the emperor to his face that he isn't wearing any clothes.

They enjoy this power and use it ruthlessly. But too many on the right did not see the necessity of winning the battle over Palin. Too many helped the other side and so we are left with no one to lead us who can even articulate our principles as well as the typical blog commenter.


Posted by: Voluble at January 01, 2013 04:00 PM (qYvEa)

163 I see Washington DC is still performing their version of Throne of Blood.

So a bit of OT. http://tinyurl.com/apddu44

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 01, 2013 04:01 PM (fx1PU)

164 Break it down for us "simple folk" then. List all the GOP success we've enjoyed over the last fifty years?


Posted by: lowandslow at January 01, 2013 03:57 PM (GZitp)

That's hilarious!

Posted by: Peaches at January 01, 2013 04:01 PM (kpCLl)

165 115 CNN has some guy on comparing this to desegregation?
Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 03:42 PM (/b8+5)

Turn CNN off!

Posted by: CarolT at January 01, 2013 04:01 PM (z4WKX)

166 153 -

Let it go. JDP loves him the Republican Party.

The American people, not so much, but the Party? Yeah.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 01, 2013 04:01 PM (BeSEI)

167 Better a ranting idiot that a sophist defending an immoral system and demanding everyone join him in the bullshit wallow.

Either or.


Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 01, 2013 04:00 PM (KDq5l)

Ouch.

Posted by: grease monkey at January 01, 2013 04:01 PM (VSWPU)

168 146
I am in the Let It Burn caucus. I have stopped caring about all things

political. Nothing that is done now can ameliorate the damage that has

been and will be done. I am just prepping for the crash. I wonder how

many out there are like me......




Posted by: Peaches at January 01, 2013 03:53 PM

You don't have to wonder about me. Other than your choice of NFL teams to follow and internal plumbing, I'm just like you.

Posted by: kbdabear at January 01, 2013 04:02 PM (wwsoB)

169
I have stopped with the beaten wife syndrome (about a year and a half ago), "I promise to stop hitting you" - the repubs.

But here is my fantasy some repub in the house would come out and say "we are going to take the senate bill and shove it up obama's ass".

I would probably laugh myself to death.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 04:02 PM (69Mdf)

170 In a defense of the slime move by the Senate to gut a House bill and insert practically all new language, Boner did tell the Senate "your move".

But I absolutely agree that it is a shitty way to operate.......and it is part and parcel of how OTaxCare came to be as well. The Senate gutted a House bill, threw in their 2700 pages of new language, and the House passed it.

I know everyone here is upset with the GOP to one degree or another, but what did you really expect after Nov. 6th? The country voted for suicide and suicide it shall be. We are just arguing on whether to use hemp or a nylon rope at this point.

Posted by: GnuBreed at January 01, 2013 04:03 PM (ccXZP)

171 153 Well, answer the question: are these undeniably Republican accomplishments, or not?

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 04:04 PM (XDC0v)

172 *rummages on blog* Yeah like AllenG it seems I have one. Political cartoon from 1995.
http://tinyurl.com/af4mzff

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 01, 2013 04:04 PM (fx1PU)

173 Make a tax cut expire and then raise it for everyone. The democrats what to raise everyone and the Republicans want no tax increases at any wage level but they spin it that without a deal everyone taxes go up and the democrats get what they want and the republicans are blamed for it. And if there is Republican purity and no tax increases bill it defaults to the trap and has a tax increase for everyone and the democrats win.

This is a textbook case of a win win for the democrats. If there is no deal the taxes reset and everyone goes up the Republicans get blamed for it and the Democrats win as they want taxes on everyone.

Posted by: Trevor (@tjexcite) at January 01, 2013 04:04 PM (Ea64Y)

174 I don't know if you all read leftie sites. But it's truly incredible the thinking process there. They really think if we just raise taxes on rich people and end the wars (which I thought Obama already did?) all will be well. I point out that it is matheatically impossible to have SS/Medicare continue on its current trajectory. Even if we double taxes on everyone making $250K+ and never go to war again, the math just doesn't add up. Their replies are "that's not true, SS and Medicare are perfectly fine, it's all Fox News lies that they are in deficit".


Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 04:05 PM (HDgX3)

175 153 The Reagan Revolution. Now I know why Vox Populi has the requirement that posters answer a direct question. Partial-birth abortion.

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 04:05 PM (XDC0v)

176 But here is my fantasy some repub in the house would come out and say "we are going to take the senate bill and shove it up obama's ass".

I would probably laugh myself to death.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 04:02 PM (69Mdf)

It would have to be a choirboy/girl, squeaky clean, no skeletons in the closet. That's why no one is saying a word, going along to get along and keep their job and have their nice raise and retirement package and Gold health insurance. It's hell out there in the real world and they know it. Heck, the media can now create a virtual scandal for these folks and then their retraction can come years later.

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 04:05 PM (/b8+5)

177 "Saying things like this makes trying to discuss serious things a waste of time."

Serious? You don't the fucking meaning of the word. Serious is not the same as playing political gamesmanship. Not addressing massive deficit spending, a major entitlement problem and the crushing behemoth that is the federal government is being serious I guess.

Posted by: lowandslow at January 01, 2013 04:05 PM (GZitp)

178 Posted by: Peaches at January 01, 2013 03:53 PM

You don't have to wonder about me. Other than your choice of NFL teams to follow and internal plumbing, I'm just like you.



Posted by: kbdabear at January 01, 2013 04:02 PM (wwsoB)

kb, I did not say what you cut pasted. That was Truck Monkey. I was simply agreeing with him. I am narrowing my focus to me, my family, my cats and my awesomely named NFL team. Go, Pats!

Posted by: Peaches at January 01, 2013 04:06 PM (kpCLl)

179 142 Only in Washington could a proposal that deepens the deficit by nearly $4 trillion over the next decade be viewed as a solution to the financial cliff.

CBO falsely scores tax cuts as deficit hikers.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 04:07 PM (YjDyJ)

180 Related to this budget thing. They haven't passed a budget in years. The roughly $800B stimulus has been perpetuated each and every year through continuing resolutions, hasn't it? We've had, in effect, $800B in "stimulus" each and every year, right?

Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:07 PM (5Jhmf)

181 I cannot express the wonderful effect it would be for the House GOP to fight back, however possible. They don't have to win. Lexington wasn't one. Nor Bunker Hill.

Let 2014 take care of itself. Just get some blows in, to let the people know they are in fact represented, and not perpetually sending folks to negotiate whether or not the colors get cased or uncased during the march-out to the surrender field.

Posted by: T. at January 01, 2013 04:07 PM (ms4kd)

182 This. I am trying to retrain my brain to not give a shit. Very difficult, but probably healthier in the long run, nothing is going to change because I am stressing and spinning my wheels. Let it burn.
Posted by: Peaches at January 01, 2013 03:53 PM (kpCLl)

I am with you Peaches. I turned the television off weeks ago and only watch things on demand, with no commercials. I don't 'need news, I get what I need here.

Posted by: CarolT at January 01, 2013 04:07 PM (z4WKX)

183 177 You don't know what I don't know. Now answer the f*ing question, drama queen.

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 04:08 PM (XDC0v)

184
Nah Trevor, if the repubs had backbone and if this wasn't just some play to pretend they care, they could pass tax cuts for everyone and say they passed the tax cuts. They don't have to live with the senate bill, but 95% of them are not conservative so they like big govt.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 04:08 PM (69Mdf)

185 >>Yeah like AllenG it seems I have one. Political cartoon from 1995.
http://tinyurl.com/af4mzff
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 01, 2013 04:04 PM (fx1PU)

GET OUT!
....... and all this time I just thought that you were partial to red lipstick.

Posted by: ontherocks at January 01, 2013 04:09 PM (aZ6ew)

186 We've had, in effect, $800B in "stimulus" each and every year, right?

yes, Mark, and hasn't it really really helped the economy!

w00t keynesians! ftw!

Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at January 01, 2013 04:09 PM (J6kXj)

187 "The Reagan Revolution."

Ah yes, the Reagan Revolution that brought us all these long term solutions.

Posted by: lowandslow at January 01, 2013 04:10 PM (GZitp)

188 All of this was inevitable when we let the left destroy Palin.

You're wrong. It can all be traced back to the left's abuse of Richard Nixon. No, wait, they were also impolite to Abraham Lincoln. But for that, we'd be in the sunlit uplands right now.

Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 04:10 PM (6TB1Z)

189 If the deal doesn't include the debt ceiling, then they are acknowledging that they need more time to negotiate on various entitlement reform, cuts etc.

If it does include it, then the Dems will be done negotiating.

If it doesn't include it I suspect the Dems know they have to make some cuts and will use the same tricks they did this time to blame the GOP for the crisis, with some crappy compromise coming at the last moment.

Well, you know what they say...you don't want to know how sausages or laws are made.

Posted by: sexypig at January 01, 2013 04:10 PM (dZQh7)

190 187
"The Reagan Revolution."

Ah yes, the Reagan Revolution that brought us all these long term solutions.


Posted by: lowandslow at January 01, 2013 04:10 PM (GZitp)

__________________
There was a Reagan Revolution. It lasted 8 years not 30 years like some people like to believe.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at January 01, 2013 04:11 PM (HDgX3)

191 Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 04:08 PM (69Mdf)

It's not that they like big government it's that it is a lose/lose for them. If you cut government you are cutting union jobs and the dems love to point this out every chance they get. As long as the American people continue to watch television and ignore politics, the democrats will remain the party in power. The government is the DMV, long lines, lots of people sitting around watching and one person working at a time. In the private sector they'd be fired immediately but in the union controlled federal government they keep their jobs and wield enormous political power.

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 04:12 PM (/b8+5)

192 If there's a reason to be pissed at Republicans, it's for not accomplishing more when we had control of everything and not arguing there case to the general public.

It's kind of hard to get pissed at Boehner for not doing more when all we have is one house of Congress. Elections have consequences.

Posted by: AD at January 01, 2013 04:13 PM (wxX5N)

193 Let it burn.

Buy your marshmallows with your neighbor's EBT card.

Posted by: eman at January 01, 2013 04:13 PM (EWsrI)

194 Well it seems as if some House Republicans may, and I emphasize MAY, still have balls. Let's see

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:13 PM (jE38p)

195 153

does the Reagan boom count? that was more about changing the economic paradigm of the country than restraining govt. growth

totally different, but much more conservative judges too, although that's more of an even split vs. previous liberal majority

my only point was that i assume most people here accept some degree of a social safety net, which inevitably means government grows. it's a question of doing things effectively as opposed to generic "government is always bad" thinking, to me anyway.

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 04:13 PM (8HhF2)

196 The bill was approved in an 89-8 vote that came after only 10 minutes of formal floor debate and no official score from the Congressional Budget Office. The Joint Committee on Taxation estimated it would reduce federal revenue by $3.93 trillion over the next decade compared to current law.

Net spending reduction?

$15 billion.

In other words, effectively zero.

Posted by: kim at January 01, 2013 04:14 PM (fLALM)

197 @robertcostaNRO I'm hearing those who oppose deal would love to ping poing amended deal / cuts deep into the night, push deadline before markets open.

> I see no harm in trying it.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 04:15 PM (YjDyJ)

198 i thought the spending cuts side was gonna be taken up over another thrilling debt ceiling showdown

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 04:15 PM (8HhF2)

199 Net spending reduction?

$15 billion.

In other words, effectively zero.
Posted by: kim at January 01, 2013 04:14 PM (fLALM)

The "fiscal cliff" deal that was designed to save money actually includes $330.3 billion in new spending over the next decade, according to the official estimate the Congressional Budget Office released Tuesday afternoon.
CBO said the bill contains about $25.1 billion in new cuts, but those are swamped by the new spending on extended unemployment benefits for the long-term jobless and other new refundable tax credits that President Obama fought for.
Of those cuts, only $2 billion are scheduled to take effect in 2013.
And CBO also warned that some of the cuts Congress is counting are from programs on which CBO never expected the money to be spent anyway — such as cuts to the Consumer Operated and Oriented Plan, which was part of Mr. Obama's health care law.
All told, the bill deepens the deficit by nearly $4 trillion over the next decade, when the new tax cuts and spending are combined.


Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:15 PM (jE38p)

200
190 Anyone else notice a deliberate refusal to answer the question?
Reagan revolution
Military rebuilding after Carter
Clinton's workfare reforms
Ban on partial-birth abortion
Fall of the Berlin Wall
Are these Republican accomplishments or not?
Or would they have happened with Dems in charge of Pres, House and Senate for the last 30 years?
Answer.The.Question.

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 04:15 PM (XDC0v)

201 it's subversion of the intent of Article 1, Section 7 and anyone who pays attention knows it.it's wrong and it needs to stop.

Posted by: Shoey at January 01, 2013 04:16 PM (m6OUa)

202 Watching Twilight Zone episodes and seeing how they're suddenly more possible and conceivable is a little disturbing.

Especially "Number 12 Looks Just Like You", "To Serve Man", "The Obsolete Man", and "Monsters Are Due On Main Street"

Posted by: kbdabear at January 01, 2013 04:16 PM (wwsoB)

203 i thought the spending cuts side was gonna be taken up over another thrilling debt ceiling showdown
Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 04:15 PM (8HhF2)


That would be a looser argument since the Dems would hold the gutting of the defense Budget over our heads to get a debt ceiling raise.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:16 PM (jE38p)

204 Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 04:12 PM (/b8+5)

I have come to the conclusion that most of the repubs do like big govt, maybe just slightly smaller than the dems. But they like their fiefdoms.

If they had principles they wouldn't care what the media does, there is no difference between always caving to the dems and not getting elected.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 04:17 PM (69Mdf)

205 Brit Hume on Twitter a few minutes ago:

"Appears the House GOP's pie-in-the-sky caucus will blow up the deal, leaving new higher tax rates in place and assuring R's get all blame."

Posted by: Lady in Black at January 01, 2013 04:17 PM (ATdet)

206 "There was a Reagan Revolution. It lasted 8 years not 30 years like some people like to believe."

It lasted six years, until 1986 when Republicans got whacked in the mid-year elections for trying to reform Social Security.

The American people over the past few decades have gotten the government they wanted. If you don't like it, the only way to substantially change it is to change the people's minds, i.e., actually having people get out there and argue why spending cuts are the chief problem.

As far as Reagan's accomplishments, there's also that whole defeating the Soviet Union thing.

Posted by: AD at January 01, 2013 04:18 PM (wxX5N)

207 As an aside, baseline budgeting is horrible

An aside which deserves its own post.

As long as we use their language and their budgeting methods, we lose.

Posted by: Your Moron pal, Truman North at January 01, 2013 04:18 PM (I2LwF)

208 Math Is Hard

Look at this shiny new toy I got for you !!!

Posted by: Your Public Servants at January 01, 2013 04:19 PM (wwsoB)

209 As far as Reagan's accomplishments, there's also that whole defeating the Soviet Union thing.

Not to mention tax reform, and rejuvenating the nation after the trauma of Vietnam.

Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 04:19 PM (6TB1Z)

210 This debate about spending bills originating in the House is silly. What possible difference does it make. All the House needs to do is write a new bill with the Senate language. What's the difference? It's a technicality, minutiae.

Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:20 PM (5Jhmf)

211 199 All told, the bill deepens the deficit by nearly $4 trillion over the next decade, when the new tax cuts and spending are combined.

Only if you assume that tax cuts somehow cost the government money.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 04:20 PM (YjDyJ)

212 "Reagan revolution
Military rebuilding after Carter
Clinton's workfare reforms
Ban on partial-birth abortion
Fall of the Berlin Wall
Are these Republican accomplishments or not?
Or would they have happened with Dems in charge of Pres, House and Senate for the last 30 years?
Answer.The.Question.

Posted by: DAve at January 01, 2013 04:15 PM (XDC0v)"
That's not a question, that's a list of things that are long gone except for a ban on partial-birth abortions which has more to do with forces outside the political machine then the GOP.


Posted by: lowandslow at January 01, 2013 04:20 PM (GZitp)

213 165 Turn CNN off!

Posted by: CarolT at January 01, 2013 04:01 PM (z4WKX)

But, but, how can I do that when Kathy Griffin and Anderson Pooper are yukking it up all New Years eve? Can't miss a minute of that.

Posted by: Don Lemon at January 01, 2013 04:20 PM (wAQA5)

214 Agh, I meant "mid-term" elections.

Posted by: AD at January 01, 2013 04:20 PM (wxX5N)

215 205
Brit Hume on Twitter a few minutes ago:

"Appears the House GOP's
pie-in-the-sky caucus will blow up the deal, leaving new higher tax
rates in place and assuring R's get all blame."


Posted by: Lady in Black at January 01, 2013 04:17 PM

It's looking more like Brit is in the "if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it" wing of the GOP

Posted by: Your Public Servants at January 01, 2013 04:21 PM (wwsoB)

216 Not to mention tax reform, and rejuvenating the nation after the trauma of Vietnam.

Don't forget removing price controls on oil and the windfall profits tax.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at January 01, 2013 04:21 PM (QupBk)

217 The GOP was forced to do good things by Conservatives, and the GOP resisted doing so quite mightily.

So here we are. The GOP is exhausted and compromised by corruption and weakness.

It can not help us anymore and we can not help it anymore.

Toss it aside and make something better.

Posted by: eman at January 01, 2013 04:21 PM (EWsrI)

218 All of this was inevitable when we let the left destroy Palin.

For some people, it always comes back to this. Why.......don't ask me. I mean, yea, she has a nice rack, but really, I have seen better. Hell, I married better. But you don't see me pushing Mrs. Mallamutt for President (though, I have to admit, if you told me I could get away with Michelle's vacation schedule, I might try it).

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at January 01, 2013 04:21 PM (OWjjx)

219 i'd say Reaganism outlasted Reagan when you consider that a president like Clinton was forced to adopt Republican ideas (or thought he had to anyway) in order to remain politically viable

Obama's the first post-Reagan president who's really trying to change the trajectory, not even making rhetorical moves to the center

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 04:21 PM (8HhF2)

220 IF we kill this bill, and I agree we should, we have to spend some money and take our case to the American People. We can NOT let obama and the MSM set the parameters of this discussion.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:22 PM (jE38p)

221 @ChadPergram No unfinished business from 112th Congress can kick over to 113th Congress at noon et on January 3. New Congress just starts. Period.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 04:22 PM (YjDyJ)

222 Happy New Years!

Jesus, how hard is it for GOP to realize that no tax increase without a real fucking budget, it's about the spending. If we can't memorize and repeat that line ad nauseum, then what the fuck?

Just because Obama and his PR flacks are pushing the lies doesn't mean we have to believe them.

Posted by: joeindc44 thought the new bond movie sucked ass too at January 01, 2013 04:22 PM (3zQJl)

223 205
Brit Hume on Twitter a few minutes ago:

"Appears the House GOP's
pie-in-the-sky caucus will blow up the deal, leaving new higher tax
rates in place and assuring R's get all blame."


Posted by: Lady in Black at January 01, 2013 04:17 PM

Geez Brit, it's "Heads R's get all the blame or Tails R's get all the blame

Posted by: kbdabear at January 01, 2013 04:23 PM (wwsoB)

224 Posted by: BurtTC at January 01, 2013 03:59 PM (BeSEI)

What they are "letting them get away with" is following the Constitution.

It's not my fault you and the rest are too dumb to understand that.

Posted by: DrewM. at January 01, 2013 04:24 PM (AFi9e)

225
Not sure whats wrong with Brit Hume these days, but he isn't quite thinking clearly IMO. Obama has already gloated and says he wants more, any compromise with what he wants on this deal is pure idiocy.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 04:24 PM (69Mdf)

226
"We can NOT let obama and the MSM set the parameters of this discussion. "
Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:22 PM (jE38p)


Good luck with that. The MSM are filthy lying liars.

Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:24 PM (5Jhmf)

227 agree with DAve on that list BTW, i limited my comments to economic changes

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 04:25 PM (8HhF2)

228 From David Brooks today:
"... should blame the American voters. The average Medicare couple pays $109,000 into the program and gets $343,000 in benefits out, according to the Urban Institute. This is $234,000 in free money. Many voters have decided they like spending a lot on themselves and pushing costs onto their children and grandchildren."

Posted by: USA at January 01, 2013 04:25 PM (RIg+t)

229 By the way doesn't that pig Kathy Griffin know that Cooper Anderson is gay?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:25 PM (jE38p)

230 $400 grand in any big city is comfortable. Which means these folks will use tax attorneys and accountants to make sure they can avoid their new taxes at all costs. And if that fails, how many of these alleged "wealthy" will simply leave the country? These are the folks already paying for most of the government through taxation, what is they simply get fed up and decide to cast their lot in South America or Canada? Then who will support this entitlement enterprise we call the USA. Who will pay for the foreign graduate students to get a free ride while American students are saddled with debt. In every other country you can't enter unless you prove no natural born citizen of that country can do your job or have your talents, except the USA, we welcome you and foot the bill. What if the people footing the bill leave?

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 04:26 PM (/b8+5)

231 We never learn. Really, we never do.

At this point, the House GOP has 2 options. 2 --- period. 1) take the Senate bill or 2) reject it and be ready to ride out the blame. And the blame they shall receive.

We lost this last election, for no small part, because of low information voters who will believe whatever spiffy ad Obama runs out and what the Westboro Baptist Media tells them. We can not change either fact at this time and you can talk about running ads and messages and whatever and it won't change one god damn thing. The GOP next war is not on the Democrats, it is on the media (BIRM)...until you have neutered the media, you will constantly find yourself in this position.

Any other alternative scenerio is unrealistic.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at January 01, 2013 04:26 PM (OWjjx)

232 ontherocks, shocking aint it? Hope you liked the cartoon.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 01, 2013 04:26 PM (fx1PU)

233 "We can NOT let obama and the MSM set the parameters of this discussion. "
Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:22 PM (jE38p)


Good luck with that. The MSM are filthy lying liars.
Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:24 PM (5Jhmf)


We spent money and buy time on the Networks and go around them and then go on the Internet and FOX with a unified message and most important call obama on all his lies.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:27 PM (jE38p)

234 228 From David Brooks today:
"... should blame the American voters. The average Medicare couple pays $109,000 into the program and gets $343,000 in benefits out, according to the Urban Institute. This is $234,000 in free money. Many voters have decided they like spending a lot on themselves and pushing costs onto their children and grandchildren."
Posted by: USA at January 01, 2013 04:25 PM (RIg+t)


Congrats Republicans in DC. David f'king Brooks can make an argument you can't.

Posted by: AD at January 01, 2013 04:27 PM (wxX5N)

235 . The GOP next war is not on the Democrats, it is on the media (BIRM)...until you have neutered the media, you will constantly find yourself in this position.

Any other alternative scenerio is unrealistic.
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at January 01, 2013 04:26 PM (OWjjx)

Fine let's go after the Media also. Call them out. This is War as far as I am concerned.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:28 PM (jE38p)

236 The GOP next war is not on the Democrats, it is on the media
(BIRM)...until you have neutered the media, you will constantly find
yourself in this position.


What are you suggesting? Firing squads at dawn? Because I'm fine with that.

Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 04:28 PM (6TB1Z)

237 The Senate with what they did with H.R. 8 is akin to a bacteriophage.

Insert malicious genetic code into a perfectly healthy cell so it now starts to spit out more copies of the phage and consume the host.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at January 01, 2013 04:29 PM (fx1PU)

238
"We spent money and buy time on the Networks and go around them and then go on the Internet and FOX with a unified message and most important call obama on all his lies."

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:27 PM (jE38p)

Thatdidn't exactlyget the job done on 11/6/12, did it?

Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:30 PM (5Jhmf)

239 We spent money and buy time on the Networks and go around them and then go on the Internet and FOX with a unified message and most important call obama on all his lies.

Conservatives with a unified message.....hell, we can not agree on where to order lunch from.

And you are really, really giving the American public too much credits for smart.

I mean, o.k., its a great idea. But its a long term game and right now its a short term game that is being played.

And the average low information voter is not on the internet unless it is too surf for pron, the latest events of the Kardashian scrunts, football betting sites and what ever else. They simply do not pay attention to politics and policies like the folks you find here.

You can not win assuming everyone is as smart as you.........they aren't.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at January 01, 2013 04:30 PM (OWjjx)

240 The GOP is scared shitless of the MFM.

They will never change.

Only a new party will have the ovaries to tell the MFM to fuck off.


Posted by: eman at January 01, 2013 04:30 PM (EWsrI)

241 Many voters have decided they like spending a lot on themselves and pushing costs onto their children and grandchildren.

you're darn tootin the oldsters feel this way. certainly my inlaws do!

I pay a shitload in taxes but figure, at least I get something out of it (they are leeching leeches and get SS *and* SSDI plus a gov't pension) indirectly.

BUT THEN! we never hear from them, too busy enjoying life, and suddenly they are all "we want to see you guys!"

and here come the "Retirement Community" glossy brochures. they actually expect their children to BK themselves paying for them to have a nice 2-bedroom condo in an adult community! We pay! The younger one is only 64!!!!

the mind boggles

Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at January 01, 2013 04:31 PM (J6kXj)

242 From David Brooks today:

"... should blame the American voters.


Yeah, I'm not to impressed with Brooks' willingness to tell truth to power. The American voters voted for Obama, twice, in part because you, Mr. Brooks, were busy slobbering all over his nether regions and assuring the voters that it tasted like candy. So, you know, kiss my ass.

Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 04:31 PM (6TB1Z)

243 Thatdidn't exactlyget the job done on 11/6/12, did it?
Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:30 PM (5Jhmf)


Funny I did not notice that we spent much money or made much of any fight in this last election. Seemed to me we rolled over on our backs and spread our legs again?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:31 PM (jE38p)

244 Remember Bush the Father's "No New Taxes" pledge? Breaking it sank his presidency.

So why in the hell the no-tax party would fall into the raising taxes trap it's being set up for (when we have a catastrophic SPENDING problem and not a lack of now punitive taxes progressively called "revenue") is beyond me.

Exactly how stupid can the Stupid Party get? Should we call it the Stupid Squared Party? The Mega Stupid Party? Or are we resigned to a new truth... the Collusion Party?

The irresponsibility of our Federal system is mind boggling.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at January 01, 2013 04:32 PM (eHIJJ)

245 231 We never learn. Really, we never do.

At this point, the House GOP has 2 options. 2 --- period. 1) take the Senate bill or 2) reject it and be ready to ride out the blame. And the blame they shall receive.


Amending the bill is definitely a long-shot but it sounds like they are opposed to doing anything else.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 04:32 PM (YjDyJ)

246 Just got back from my buddies farm. Nothing like starting the new year punching holes in paper with some 9mm, .40, 12 guage, .223 and 30-30.

510 rounds through the new AR without a hiccup.

Posted by: RWC at January 01, 2013 04:32 PM (sqp6o)

247 The average Medicare couple pays $109,000 into the program and gets
$343,000 in benefits out, according to the Urban Institute. This is
$234,000 in free money.

Well, here's the thing and maybe I am just stupid, but I figure if that money had been invested against future need, as it should have been, instead of used to "balance" an increasingly insane federal budget, the money would have been there to meet those future needs. Same with Social Security. The only "free money" was what those shitweasels in DC decided to spend on other ridiculous things.

Posted by: Peaches at January 01, 2013 04:33 PM (kpCLl)

248 By the way doesn't that pig Kathy Griffin know that Cooper Anderson is gay?
Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:25 PM (jE38p)
It's all good. He doesn't know she's a woman.

Posted by: yinzer at January 01, 2013 04:33 PM (2GZPT)

249 Rejecting Plan B is what led to this. I don't get why Conservatives want to defend the economic interests of rich people who support Democrats.

Posted by: Vicious at January 01, 2013 04:34 PM (tLNEC)

250 You can not win assuming everyone is as smart as you.........they aren't.
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at January 01, 2013 04:30 PM (OWjjx)

I'm not. Keep it simple keep it stupid, but pound our message home. Our message before the election should have been the fight we are trying to fight now. Sequestration, spending, taxes, deficits. To be honest I don't remember that argument being made? We should have demanded Congress get to work on it BEFORE the election and called out the Dems to get something done and not sit there with their thumbs up their asses

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:34 PM (jE38p)

251 244

how do you propose they prevent some form of rate hikes given the mechanics in place

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 04:34 PM (8HhF2)

252
"Funny I did not notice that we spent much money or made much of any fight in this last election. Seemed to me we rolled over on our backs and spread our legs again?"
Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:31 PM (jE38p)

Romney spent an unprecedented amount of money, or a Republican anyway,if I'm not mistaken.

Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:34 PM (5Jhmf)

253 Who cares? According to the home page apparently you can make £7,130 a month working from home!

Posted by: andycanuck at January 01, 2013 04:35 PM (jPVBi)

254 He doesn't know she's a woman.
Posted by: yinzer at January 01, 2013 04:33 PM (2GZPT)


Well that scrunt sure is no lady

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:35 PM (jE38p)

255
...510 rounds through the new AR without a hiccup.

*swirls scotch around in his tumbler*

*raises an eyebrow*

THAT'S what I'M talkin' about. My new EBG has been sitting in the safe for nigh on three weeks since I bought it. Just waiting on my new scope, since I can't see squat with old eyes through an iron sight.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at January 01, 2013 04:36 PM (4Mv1T)

256 Romney spent an unprecedented amount of money, or a Republican anyway,if I'm not mistaken.
Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:34 PM (5Jhmf)


I don't know where and they should have gone after obama down and dirty and called him out for the lying ignorant scumbag he is.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:37 PM (jE38p)

257 Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:34 PM (5Jhmf)

That makes no sense, he didn't want the job. He spent everyone else's money, none of his own. At least that's what they are saying on the leftie blogs.

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 04:37 PM (/b8+5)

258 240
The GOP is scared shitless of the MFM.



They will never change.



Only a new party will have the ovaries to tell the MFM to fuck off.







Posted by: eman at January 01, 2013 04:30 PM

I'm with you on that, but many still trot out the "third parties never win" narratives. They still think they can take control of the party from very rich and well connected institutional beltway lifers.

For what? To take control of a party with the "republican" label on it that's been damaged by years of propaganda to the point of no matter who is in charge, the majority of voters say "Republicans are icky" or "Republicans are old white rich men and religious nuts" even if they were blacker than the NBA.

Far easier, cheaper, and faster to start up an entirely new party without the stigma of the Republican name stuck in the peoples mind than fight an entrenched and still powerful leadership over a permanently damaged brand name.

Posted by: kbdabear at January 01, 2013 04:38 PM (wwsoB)

259 This is where the GOP statists have leds us.

Remember DrewM slicing through the teabagger front lines -with reckless abandon- during the Mike Castle fiasco? Oh! How the sun rises and sets on the shoulders of the GOP. Slurrrrrp!

See the solitary tear on my cheek? yep, its 100% sweetdrewflop.

tags: dream act lacy wigs buy electoral apps

Posted by: 13times at January 01, 2013 04:39 PM (h6XiD)

260
"I don't know where and they should have gone after obama down and dirty and called him out for the lying ignorant scumbag he is. "
Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:37 PM (jE38p)

Pretty much all in battleground states, I think. I live in Washington and I don't recall seeing very many ads here.

Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:39 PM (5Jhmf)

261 Far easier, cheaper, and faster to start up an entirely new party without the stigma of the Republican name stuck in the peoples mind than fight an entrenched and still powerful leadership over a permanently damaged brand name.

Posted by: kbdabear at January 01, 2013 04:38 PM (wwsoB)

I don't think so. We have to take over the Republican party.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:39 PM (jE38p)

262 Pretty much all in battleground states, I think. I live in Washington and I don't recall seeing very many ads here.
Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:39 PM (5Jhmf)


I did not see one add that was not bland boring and white bread. None hard hitting.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:40 PM (jE38p)

263 250 Our message before the election should have been the fight we are trying to fight now. Sequestration, spending, taxes, deficits. To be honest I don't remember that argument being made? We should have demanded Congress get to work on it BEFORE the election and called out the Dems to get something done and not sit there with their thumbs up their asses

The Republicans made that argument and the House Rs passed numerous bills. It was the Senate Democrats who decided to wait until the last minute.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 04:40 PM (YjDyJ)

264
"That makes no sense, he didn't want the job. He spent everyone else's money, none of his own. At least that's what they are saying on the leftie blogs."

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 04:37 PM (/b8+5)

I wouldn't put too much stock in leftie blogs, but it is disheartening, to say the least,to hear from Mitt's son that he didn't really want the job.

Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:41 PM (5Jhmf)

265 RWC- Gotta go eat some fresh collards, ham, black-eyed, peas, et al, with the in-laws. Maybe we can discuss your day with the new firearms at the ONT when I get back.


Posted by: Tobacco Road at January 01, 2013 04:43 PM (4Mv1T)

266 If the House Rs amend the bill, they better do a good job of it and quickly. They have less than 48hrs.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 04:43 PM (YjDyJ)

267 JDP: "how do you propose they prevent some form of rate hikes given the mechanics in place"

At some point you have to say "No" and live with the consequences. Cut spending and government, propose no new taxes, and go home to explain to constituents the dire economics we're delaying to their personal peril.

If Americans want to fire them because they themselves are delusional, ignorant, or stupid, then you live with it and kiss the country goodbye because it is lost.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at January 01, 2013 04:43 PM (eHIJJ)

268 I wouldn't put too much stock in leftie blogs, but it is disheartening, to say the least,to hear from Mitt's son that he didn't really want the job.

I think that was widely misinterpreted. I think Tagg simply meant that around 2009, Mitt was not interested at all in another campaign. It was clear to me that by 2012, he wanted to win.

I know it feels all soothing to think that he just didn't want the job, like McCain, but it isn't true. There were plenty of strategic mistakes, but we aren't at this point by a lack of will.

Posted by: AmishDude at January 01, 2013 04:45 PM (T0NGe)

269 it is disheartening, to say the least,to hear from Mitt's son that he didn't really want the job

That doesn't bother me in the least. Whether or not he wanted the job, Mitt would have done a great job, because that's what he does. It's the guys who want the job because they think they're divine, but then don't do it, or do it poorly, that I'm concerned about. I'll try to think of an example. Give me a minute.

Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 04:45 PM (6TB1Z)

270 Turn CNN off!


Doing my best.

Posted by: Kathy Griffin at January 01, 2013 04:46 PM (z9HTb)

271
Tagg Romney:

"He wanted to be president less than anyone I’ve met in my life. He had no desire to … run. If he could have found someone else to take his place . . . he would have been ecstatic to step aside. He is a very private person who loves his family deeply and wants to be with them, but he has deep faith in God and he loves his country, but he doesn’t love the attention."

Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:46 PM (5Jhmf)

272 If Americans want to fire them because they themselves are delusional,
ignorant, or stupid, then you live with it and kiss the country goodbye
because it is lost.


Shorter AD: L.I.B.

Posted by: DocJ at January 01, 2013 04:47 PM (V20sy)

273 Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:41 PM (5Jhmf)

Oh I agree but the leftie blogs seems to be able to develop memes that stick and truth doesn't necessarily have to be truth, people just have to think it's a truth. They deal in hard core allusion on some of those blogs. They begin with a set of false "givens" that they all accept and move along from there. It's fascinating to watch but scary when you live in the real world.

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 04:47 PM (/b8+5)

274 Every plan put forward involves kicking the can down the road. The horrible "fiscal cliff" would have reduced our deficit to $600ish billion next year, still unsustainable.

Why are we even bothering about this anymore? We are never going to get spending cut. It's not going to happen. And without that, there is nothing to prevent an entitlement crisis within the next two decades.

I've done everything I can to fight off the "let it burn" philosophy, but fuck it, let it burn. I may have a chance to work in Asia for a company not based in the United States, and if it becomes a hard offer I'm gone. Let's see less people talking about going Galt and more people doing it.

Posted by: Aaron at January 01, 2013 04:47 PM (Tlix5)

275
The GOP is so dead to me....First, they force a nominee on us who is a big government socialist liberal from Massachusetts who believes in government run healthcare. Then they vote to support a measure that increases our federal debt by increasing taxes in the amount of $650 billion while only reducing spending $15 billion.

IT IS NOW OFFICIAL, the Republican party isreally just the right wing of the socialist party. Great. This is all the fault of you gdamn Romney lovers. I guess if the 'rank and file' support the right wing of the socialist party then the GOP has to be that. Constitution party, here I come.

Posted by: doug at January 01, 2013 04:47 PM (uJ8q7)

276 Far easier, cheaper, and faster to start up an entirely new party
without the stigma of the Republican name stuck in the peoples mind than
fight an entrenched and still powerful leadership over a permanently
damaged brand name


It's a lot harder than just starting a new party or even changing the Republican party from within, we have to change the culture.

Posted by: chemjeff-husker at January 01, 2013 04:47 PM (bBtob)

277
We all know there are 30 house repubs that will vote with the dems to pass the senate bill, despite the fun we have discussing it.

Nevertheless, the cornshysters lost so a good start to 2013.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 04:47 PM (69Mdf)

278 >>By the way doesn't that pig Kathy Griffin know that Cooper Anderson is gay?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:25 PM (jE38p)

It's all good. He doesn't know she's a woman.<,

Wait! She is? Seriously?

Posted by: Albie Damned at January 01, 2013 04:47 PM (Yhu4q)

279 gee, what if the GOP leads. Reject the senate bill and pass our idealized bill with a budget.

blame is baked in the cake.

but that's not real.

We went through the same thing with the myth of 1996 in which we won 2 senate seats after that.

the left still celebrates the myth of 1996, fuckem.

Posted by: joeindc44 thought the new bond movie sucked ass too at January 01, 2013 04:48 PM (3zQJl)

280 I don't think so. We have to take over the Republican party.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:39 PM

That's harder to do than a Mafia soldier deciding to take over The Commission and becoming the capo di tutti capi.

And what's your prize? A party brand name that's considered "icky" by most people.

It's like PJ O'Rourke's astonishment at the Balkan wars;

Even those of us who are savagely opposed to pacifism are tempted to grab the Yugoslavs by their fashionably padded shoulders and give them nonviolent what-for: “Even if you win, you assholes, all you’ve got is Yugoslavia! It’s not like you're invading France or something.

Posted by: kbdabear at January 01, 2013 04:49 PM (wwsoB)

281 There is no backlash. Not really. The MSM is against us no matter what so may as well do the right thing. Right thing is not LIB or whatever, it's negotiate.

We let the JEF run his entire presidency based on crisis after crisis, let's instead demand a real plan and a real budget instead of constant crisis mode.

Posted by: joeindc44 thought the new bond movie sucked ass too at January 01, 2013 04:50 PM (3zQJl)

282 If Anderson Cooper weren't gay, Kathy Griffin's advances would have finished the job.

Posted by: AmishDude at January 01, 2013 04:50 PM (T0NGe)

283 @275 IT IS NOW OFFICIAL, the Republican party isreally just the right wing of the socialist party.

To be fair doug, the GOP has been a center-left party since, at least, January 1997. Heck, even during 1981-1989 there was nary a balanced budget and spending went up every year.

Conservatives have been losing the "small government" war for my entire life of 46+ years.

Posted by: DocJ at January 01, 2013 04:51 PM (V20sy)

284 @robertcostaNRO This is the big meeting. 5:15pm. 2nd caucus meeting of day for House GOP. Evening. Pressure. Clock ticks. Decisions, decisions.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 04:52 PM (YjDyJ)

285 "This is all the fault of you gdamn Romney lovers"

yeah if we raged against the machine with one of the other perfectly qualified candidates things would've gone swimmingly

you're talking flawed vs. massively flawed here

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 04:52 PM (8HhF2)

286 It is a wonderful day to be live. Who cares what the idiots in DC are doing? I mean, I do, but I won't let them ruin my day or my life. There are S.O.B.s, but they've always been thus. Someday things will change, and Obozo will be out of office. Until then, Happy New Year!

Posted by: Baldy at January 01, 2013 04:53 PM (opS9C)

287 [It's kind of hard to get pissed at Boehner for not doing more when all
we have is one house of Congress. Elections have consequences.]

People keep saying this, but it doesn't excuse his piss-poor tactics.

Why not pass a bill based on the recommendations from Obama's bi-partisan debt reduction commission and go home? You know, the committee he put into place to pretend he was serious about debt reduction and then turned around and ignored?

Hold him to his lies. Don't let him get away with that shit. Repeat over and over that these are bi-partisan recommendations from HIS OWN debt commission.

Balanced approach? We gave the President a bi-partisan, balanced approach. We're done. The ball is in his court.

This shit isn't FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE.

Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 04:53 PM (HzhBE)

288 DocJ: "Shorter AD: L.I.B."

You get me. My New Year's resolution is to L.I.B. and S.I.D.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at January 01, 2013 04:55 PM (eHIJJ)

289 Pass it and be done. I thought we were in LIB mode? So then let the mother fucker burn.

I'm getting sick and tired of these "Let it Burn" pretenders. LIB doesn't mean "Pass whatever we can to prevent the collapse of the U.S. Economy." That's a notably "Let it smolder" policy.

If we had just passed everything the Democrats wanted, the whole thing would have collapsed as we entered the next downturn in our depression, and there it would have been, clear cut and undeniable evidence that progressive policies are horseshit. But now we're going into that downturn with the media narrative established;

"Obstructionist Republicans."

I'm looking forward to the next 2 years ofhearing about how this depression was caused by conservative policies due to those damn dirty tea partiers and their brinkmanship.

The people voted for Barack Obama, TWICE!!!! Give the dumb fuckers what they want.

Posted by: Cashin at January 01, 2013 04:55 PM (X3awm)

290 Hahahahaha. What an oxymoron. Republican leadership.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at January 01, 2013 04:56 PM (jucos)

291 ...a little more to the left, please.

Posted by: deck chairs on the Titanic at January 01, 2013 04:56 PM (EZl54)

292 283

i don't get this argument as if deficits are the sole measure of everything. there was a debate among Republicans in the '80s on whether they should focus more on sparking growth or not cutting taxes as much for revenue purposes. now sure it isn't good to be running structural deficits (although given winning the Cold War + stimulating the economy i'd say it was a justifiable tradeoff at the time) but i don't think it's the only criteria of whether the GOP's been conservative or not.

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 04:56 PM (8HhF2)

293 '80 campaign, should say

supposed "voodoo economics" and all that

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 04:57 PM (8HhF2)

294 ...a little more to the left, please.

Posted by: deck chairs on the Titanic

Don't forget to leave room for the band.

Posted by: andycanuck at January 01, 2013 04:59 PM (jPVBi)

295 265 RWC- Gotta go eat some fresh collards, ham, black-eyed, peas, et al, with the in-laws. Maybe we can discuss your day with the new firearms at the ONT when I get back.


Posted by: Tobacco Road at January 01, 2013 04:43 PM (4Mv1T)

See you then. Traditional New Year dinner here - pork roast, kielbasa, sauerkraut and mashed potatoes.

Posted by: RWC at January 01, 2013 04:59 PM (sqp6o)

296 People only vote and pay attention when it involves them, their money. They don't see this as "their money". They will only see things if it affects them in a big way. You have to tax everyone. Even the entitlement crowd. Then, they'll suddenly pay attention.

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 05:00 PM (/b8+5)

297 @292 I didn't say deficits are the sole measure of anything. What I said is that there was never a balanced budget AND government spending grew every year from 1981-1989. One or the other is bad enough, we had both - and it's only been worse since, at least, January 2001.

Sorry, but I simply do not understand what is ever "conservative" about allowing the electorate the consume more from government than they are willing to pay in current revenues.

Posted by: DocJ at January 01, 2013 05:02 PM (V20sy)

298 If the republicans are going to get the blame no matter what then they might as well craft a new bill. There is nothing stopping them from doing this but the false media narrative of some arbitrary time clock on this.

Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 05:03 PM (/b8+5)

299 298
If the republicans are going to get the blame no matter what then they
might as well craft a new bill. There is nothing stopping them from
doing this but the false media narrative of some arbitrary time clock on
this.



Posted by: Caustic at January 01, 2013 05:03 PM (/b8+5)

Well no, actually, the new session of Congress starts on Jan. 4, that is not a false deadline

Posted by: chemjeff-husker at January 01, 2013 05:03 PM (bBtob)

300 Here's the other thing: I don't have any patience for losers.

We are where we are because of Boehner "negotiated" us here. The fiscal cliff was his big, smart plan. And look where it's gotten us.

These sorry-asses get clowned every single time. How sad is it to get rolled by a lazy, undisciplined fuckup like Obama? Boehner and McConnell are a couple of eunuchs. I'm done being demoralized by these weak little bitches. I don't suffer fools and excuse makers. Third party time.

Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 05:04 PM (HzhBE)

301 I am glad I got my Bushmaster at a gun show this summer.

Posted by: Golan Globus at January 01, 2013 05:04 PM (/1U3u)

302 Well, truth be told, the whole "fiscal cliff" idea was more McConnell's idea, the guy who is too smart by half.

Posted by: chemjeff-husker at January 01, 2013 05:05 PM (bBtob)

303 Boehner was counting on a victory in the Presidential election. I think that was a reasonable view at the time. Both sides were looking for a mandate. None was given, though. Tough spot.

Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 05:06 PM (5Jhmf)

304 Constitution party, here I come.

Adios. We're better off without you.

Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 05:07 PM (6TB1Z)

305 Third party time.


Posted by: Warden


See 304.

Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 05:08 PM (6TB1Z)

306 It's not about Republican Party vs. Constitution Party vs. Libertarian Party or whatever.

We have to change the culture from within.

You want to know why we have a $16 trillion debt? Because people don't mind living on credit. That is why. People would not stand for it if they didn't intrinsically believe it's okay to charge up one's lifestyle on the credit card. THAT is what has to change. Once that changes, the debt problem goes away as people naturally become inclined to vote for people who offer less debt, not more.

Posted by: chemjeff-husker at January 01, 2013 05:09 PM (bBtob)

307 ::::We are where we are because of Boehner "negotiated" us here. The fiscal cliff was his big, smart plan. And look where it's gotten us.:::;

"This is not the hill to die on."

- Stuff DrewM Said, Vol I

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 01, 2013 05:09 PM (wspmn)

308 I'm guessing Drew, like Malor and that eunuch Poppin' Fresh over at Tepid Air really are concerned that people might actually ditch the Republican Party instead of Playing the Game and waiting for the not-inevitable day when those so-called "conservatives" offer up a leader who is more attractive than rabies.

Sorry, boys, that ship has sailed. And sank. Like the whigs they replaced, the Republicans have become a permanent symbol of political failure. If the Democrats didn't do it a little better, they'd be symbols of greed, theft and brazen self-aggrandizement as well.

I voted for my last Republican in November. No more promises, no bullshit "principles." I leave it to the hardcores here and at places like NRO to argue over why Boner isn't acting in the spirit of the Federalist Papers or some such shit. Accepting incompetence because it's conservative incompetence is no longer an acceptable option.

Posted by: MrScribbler at January 01, 2013 05:09 PM (yKUrR)

309 297 well yeah obviously i agree structural deficits are bad.

the issue is exclusively balancing things through spending cuts runs up against opposition even from parts of the Republican base, so the trends of the past several aren't exactly surprising.

Posted by: JDP at January 01, 2013 05:09 PM (8HhF2)

310 [See 304 Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 05:08 PM (6TB1Z) ]

You're right. You don't need my reliable, straight ticket Republican vote.

Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 05:10 PM (HzhBE)

311 I don't think so. We have to take over the Republican party.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at January 01, 2013 04:39 PM (jE38p)

we've been trying that, but they just change the rules to make it impossible.
the GOP needs to go the way of the Whigs...

Posted by: Shoey at January 01, 2013 05:10 PM (m6OUa)

312 [Accepting incompetence because it's conservative incompetence is no
longer an acceptable option.]

Yeah. It's not just about ideology. It's about the ability to get the job done.

Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 05:11 PM (HzhBE)

313 we've been trying that, but they just change the rules to make it impossible.

Ron Paul wasn't going to win regardless.

Posted by: chemjeff-husker at January 01, 2013 05:12 PM (bBtob)

314 It's about the ability to get the job done.

It's OUR JOB. That's the problem here. People, right now, WANT big government. So what else are craven election-seeking politicians supposed to do? Lecture their constituents on why they are wrong?

Posted by: chemjeff-husker at January 01, 2013 05:13 PM (bBtob)

315 ::::312 [Accepting incompetence because it's conservative incompetence is no
longer an acceptable option.]

Yeah. It's not just about ideology. It's about the ability to get the job done.
Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 05:11 PM (HzhBE)::::

But...

We have to keep our powder dry.

DRY!


Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 01, 2013 05:14 PM (wspmn)

316 298 If the republicans are going to get the blame no matter what then they might as well craft a new bill. There is nothing stopping them from doing this but the false media narrative of some arbitrary time clock on this.

The reason they are talking about a deadline is because the 113th Congress starts at noon on Thursday.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 05:14 PM (YjDyJ)

317 Mitt was tougher on his republican opponents than he was on Obama. TFG is the enemy of the US, at least the people of the US that care about it!

Posted by: CarolT at January 01, 2013 05:15 PM (z4WKX)

318 the issue is exclusively balancing things through spending cuts runs up
against opposition even from parts of the Republican base


Who is talking about "exclusively balancing things through spending cuts"? All I'm saying is that people should be willing to pay, today, for the government they wish to consume today. Frankly, I'd prefer to not live in a Scandi-style social democracy welfare-state, but that's where we live now - only we're paying taxes at historically low levels.

We are going to lose the "small government" vs. "welfare state" argument every time so long as that status quo remains

Posted by: DocJ at January 01, 2013 05:16 PM (V20sy)

319 [So what else are craven election-seeking politicians supposed to do?
Lecture their constituents on why they are wrong?]

Boehner ran on big government and endless deficit spending?

Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 05:17 PM (HzhBE)

320 Yeah. It's not just about ideology. It's about the ability to get the job done.

Except
that that ability is predicated on the voters being receptive to a small government message. They aren't right now, so the best Republicans can do is
position ourselves for the inevitable crash. Do you really think anyone here is a big government type? We have the same goal but differ on the best way to achieve it.

Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 05:19 PM (6TB1Z)

321 [We have to keep our powder dry.



DRY!





Posted by: Empire
of Jeff at]

Yup. We'll get 'em next year.

Just like the Cleveland Browns.

Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 05:19 PM (HzhBE)

322 pep, whether the voters are receptive or not, it costs NOTHING to make the case. That's part of the job--shaping perceptions. It's what the Democrats do every single minute of every hour of every day.

Have you seen the GOP leadership making the case for smaller government lately? How about a couple of charts showing where deficit spending is leading us?


Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 05:22 PM (HzhBE)

323
None of this stuff is anything they can't negotiate next week or next month. Its the whole false "crisis" crap that they are manipulating the public with.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 05:22 PM (69Mdf)

324 323

None of this stuff is anything they can't negotiate next week or
next month. Its the whole false "crisis" crap that they are manipulating
the public with.


Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 05:22 PM (69Mdf)

The next Congress starts on Jan. 4.

Posted by: chemjeff-husker at January 01, 2013 05:23 PM (bBtob)

325 Have you seen the GOP leadership making the case for smaller government
lately? How about a couple of charts showing where deficit spending is
leading us?


Ryan for damn sure. Boehner somewhat less compellingly but yes he still makes the case. The people aren't ready to hear it, and they won't be until it hurts them.

Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 05:23 PM (6TB1Z)

326 So...Negotiate it in the next congress.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 05:24 PM (69Mdf)

327 Next Congress has more D's.

Posted by: chemjeff-husker at January 01, 2013 05:25 PM (bBtob)

328
But the R's still hold the house.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 05:26 PM (69Mdf)

329 [Boehner somewhat less compellingly but yes he still
makes the case. The people aren't ready to hear it, and they won't be
until it hurts them.


Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 05:23 PM (6TB1Z) ]

Boehner adopted Obama's own rhetoric regarding taxing the rich when he should have been hammering that it doesn't even scratch the surface of the deficit.He is incompetent. Sure, we lost this election, but not by that much. Obama does not have a mandate, but the GOP are acting as if he does.Watch how the Democrats act when they're in the minority. Do you see them crawling on their bellies? No. All they do is attack, attack, attack.You fight the battle on your turf, not theirs.

Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 05:27 PM (HzhBE)

330 :::Ryan for damn sure. Boehner somewhat less compellingly but yes he still makes the case. The people aren't ready to hear it, and they won't be until it hurts them. :::

And that is why it must burn. Nobody wants to take their medicine, but you cannot defer the bill for all this shit forever, no matter how much you borrow - and the Chinese aren't lending anymore. All that's left is to get lean and start living within our means or to start printing money like crazy.

Give you one fucking guess which course our brilliant, principled "leaders" in both parties have chosen.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 01, 2013 05:29 PM (wspmn)

331 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 01, 2013 05:14 PM (wspmn)

Well whoever has the most and driest powder wins, right?

Posted by: John Boehner at January 01, 2013 05:29 PM (AFi9e)

332 300 We are where we are because of Boehner "negotiated" us here. The fiscal cliff was his big, smart plan. And look where it's gotten us.

Part of it, but he was not primarily responsible for originally negotiating the Bush tax cuts.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 05:30 PM (YjDyJ)

333 Pretty much all in battleground states, I think. I live in Washington and I don't recall seeing very many ads here.
Posted by: Mark at January 01, 2013 04:39 PM (5Jhmf)


Bull crap. I live in Iowa. They may have wasted money on broadcast tv - putting money in the pockets of those who demonized them continuously for free - but streaming media was awash in unanswered Obama ads. Wall-to-wall Obama ads, day after day, week after week, setting the stage not just for the election, but for this fight. The eternally promised Romney barrage never actually arrived.

Posted by: Chicagorefugee at January 01, 2013 05:31 PM (MbXOQ)

334 Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that the GOP should be able to stop Obama. They can't.

What a competent leadership should be able to do is hang all of this on him. They have all the ammunition they need--Obama's own words.

Instead they're taking it in the shorts. Again.

Posted by: Warden at January 01, 2013 05:33 PM (HzhBE)

335 326 So...Negotiate it in the next congress.

Under the rules, work on this particular bill must be finished prior to the start of the 113th Congress.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 05:34 PM (YjDyJ)

336 I don't understand these people that still want to support Boehner and McConnell despite the fact that even when they have cards to play, they fold for some hand down the road, some other hill that hey have no intention of fighting for.

Again and again.

I know there's a psychological tendency to believe in the status quo even as it's crumbling all around you, but the need to get played?

Sorry, I'm done with these motherfuckers that would need a dramatic conversion just to be upgraded to RINOs.

There is nothing to be saved here with whatever is being called the Republican Party today.

Two parties, three parties, either way it's a loss as long as one of them is the GOP.

They may be more rotten and degraded than the system as a whole at this point.

Let THEM burn. It will actually hurt the Dem strategy.

Posted by: ontherocks at January 01, 2013 05:34 PM (aZ6ew)

337 And that is why it must burn. Nobody wants to take their medicine, but
you cannot defer the bill for all this shit forever, no matter how much
you borrow - and the Chinese aren't lending anymore. All that's left is
to get lean and start living within our means or to start printing money
like crazy.


Call me a pollyanna, but I still think people might come to their senses. If they don't, what have I lost? See Pascal's wager.

Posted by: pep at January 01, 2013 05:38 PM (6TB1Z)

338 Nothing that happens in this process is going to make me as a Conservative 100% happy since we lost the Election. So the question is, what do we try to salvage?

I really don't like the idea of paying substantially more in taxes in the hope that Americans will finally "get it." That's an awfully painful pill for me to swallow considering I'm part of the 1%, and the Free Shit Army could care less about tax rates.

For the "let it burn" fans, the tax rates are meaningless to whether the country collapses or not, it's purely based on spending. If Obama got a giant tax increase it would keep the country afloat for about an additional week. So that trajectory doesn't change in any meaningful way.

If it's going to burn, might as well try and keep as much fiat money as possible to convert into Precious metals. Better than throwing it Obama and Reid.

Posted by: Jeepers at January 01, 2013 05:39 PM (XDRsa)

339
Well I don't like that particular bill and its not an crisis, so yes I think they should kill it and start over in the new congress.

My unsaid point is that I believe its been a done deal for a while and they are just playing the country for brownie points.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 05:42 PM (69Mdf)

340 339 Well I don't like that particular bill and its not an crisis, so yes I think they should kill it and start over in the new congress.

But will Reid make some of the same concessions? Given how unhappy a number of the Senate Democrats were before Biden gave them their orders, I highly doubt it.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 05:45 PM (YjDyJ)

341 I put on Fox News for a minute. Bret came on and said that SCOAMT's plane was gassed up to go back to Hawaii but it's not going anywhere now!
I'm glad I put it on. TFG has to stay in DC, he must he pissed off!

Posted by: CarolT at January 01, 2013 05:45 PM (z4WKX)

342
Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 05:45 PM (YjDyJ)


The cliff is a better deal. It has some actual cuts in it.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at January 01, 2013 05:48 PM (69Mdf)

343 342 The cliff is a better deal. It has some actual cuts in it.

If you assume the sequester will not be turned-off altogether at some point, yes.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 05:53 PM (YjDyJ)

344 340
339 Well I don't like that particular bill and its not an crisis, so
yes I think they should kill it and start over in the new congress.



But will Reid make some of the same concessions? Given how unhappy a
number of the Senate Democrats were before Biden gave them their
orders, I highly doubt it.

Posted by: 80sBaby

To me, that's the dilemma. Do we as conservatives sacrifice better public policy on the altar of better talking points?

Making ALL Americans that pay taxes get a giant tax increase in the hopes it pisses America off at Democrats is a risky gamble. It didn't seem to hurt Clinton's popularity much living under the "old" tax rates.

I have mixed feelings, but some good people that didn't vote for Obama (read: most small business owners like me) are really going to get whacked hard.

If you had told me in 2008 that two terms of Obama meant 98% of us would still be paying the same income rates under the Bush tax cuts (with the remaining top 2% still paying less than they were under Clinton) I'd say that was an incredible victory for the GOP.


Posted by: Jeepers at January 01, 2013 05:55 PM (XDRsa)

345 It's at the point where I don't even care about losing so much. I just want to see the GOP go out there and f-ing HAMMER INTO THE GROUND all of the bullshit promises Obama has made since day 1 about taxes and spending. I want every Republican everywher to just drop everything and find some way to call a special meeting with the local press where they do nothing else but repeat verbatim Obama's promises. No speculation, no answering questions, nothing else but: "On [insert date] the president said XYZ. On [insert date] the president said, ...etc."

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at January 01, 2013 05:57 PM (Y5I9o)

346 we've been trying that, but they just change the rules to make it impossible.

Ron Paul wasn't going to win regardless.
Posted by: chemjeff-husker at January 01, 2013 05:12 PM (bBtob)


That's not the point. The point is that rules are rules only so long as the beltway elites agree with the results. Corruption by definition. My way or the highway? How's that working out for the GOP?

Posted by: Chicagorefugee at January 01, 2013 05:58 PM (MbXOQ)

347 @ChadPergram Dreier suggested there may be a conference vote to determine what the next course of action may be. #fiscalcliff

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 05:58 PM (YjDyJ)

348 344 Making ALL Americans that pay taxes get a giant tax increase in the hopes it pisses America off at Democrats is a risky gamble. It didn't seem to hurt Clinton's popularity much living under the "old" tax rates.

It is a huge gamble that should not be taken lightly.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 06:03 PM (YjDyJ)

349 Fuck Them All!

Fuck them All in the Ass with a Fucking Sledgehammer with the constition and bill of rights engraved on it.

Yes thats right...Fuck them all with a really big ass hammer.

Posted by: jeremiah God Damn Barack Obama the Mother Fucking SCoaMF wright at January 01, 2013 06:04 PM (+OTLF)

350 I put on Fox News for a minute. Bret came on and said that SCOAMT's plane was gassed up to go back to Hawaii but it's not going anywhere now!
I'm glad I put it on. TFG has to stay in DC, he must he pissed off!
Posted by: CarolT at January 01, 2013 05:45 PM (z4WKX)


Maybe the fucker shouldn't have contemptuously spiked the ball and done a sack dance before the house voted. Bless his heart!

Posted by: Chicagorefugee at January 01, 2013 06:04 PM (MbXOQ)

351 ‏@robertcostaNRO Source inside the caucus mtg tells me that RSC group is clashing (lightly) with moderates. Tempers aren't hot, just debating, source says

@ChadPergram Reid adjourns Senate until noon et tomorrow. #fiscalcliff

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 06:07 PM (YjDyJ)

352 I'm with #286. Seriously, you guys have to stop caring so much . Whatever they do is not going to be enough. A financial/economic meltdown is baked in the cake. Enjoy the good times we are in right now and prepare you and the family as best you can. You have 2-5 yrs I suspect. Plan accordingly

Posted by: big swingin package at January 01, 2013 06:12 PM (OZtuG)

353 @robertcostaNRO RT @markknoller: If 218 Repubs dont commit to spending amendment, GOP aide says Boehner will bring up Sen 'cliff' bill for up or down vote.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 06:15 PM (YjDyJ)

354 I had Special Report on Fox but shut it back off when I saw clips of McCain, he is a jerk, said that this was the worse congress in history and good riddance to them. His best friend Graham also had to add something! Why do those two clown have to go speak at every single incident? No one cares what they think!

Posted by: CarolT at January 01, 2013 06:17 PM (z4WKX)

355 @robertcostaNRO RT @JakeSherman: Breaking: house will whip spending cut amndmnt. If it gets 218, they'll move it. If not, up and down on senate pasted bill.

Posted by: 80sBaby at January 01, 2013 06:20 PM (YjDyJ)

356 Maybe the fucker shouldn't have contemptuously spiked the ball and done a sack dance before the house voted. Bless his heart!
Posted by: Chicagorefugee at January 01, 2013 06:04 PM (MbXOQ)

SCOAMT cannot resist the urge to speak, don't you know his ego can't help itself? I wonder if the teleprompter has its own ego?

Posted by: CarolT at January 01, 2013 06:20 PM (z4WKX)

357 352
I'm with #286. Seriously, you guys have to stop caring so much .
Whatever they do is not going to be enough. A financial/economic
meltdown is baked in the cake. Enjoy the good times we are in right now
and prepare you and the family as best you can. You have 2-5 yrs I
suspect. Plan accordingly

Posted by: big swingin package at January 01, 2013 06:12 PM (OZtuG)

Good Times? What fucking alternate universe do you live in?Did McCain win reelection there?

Posted by: jeremiah God Damn Barack Obama the Mother Fucking SCoaMF wright at January 01, 2013 07:06 PM (+OTLF)

358 These are good times compared to what's coming...

Posted by: big swingin package at January 01, 2013 07:46 PM (OZtuG)






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