Top Headline Comments 12-21-12

Happy Friday.

Last night, House members dealt a blow to our chances of averting the fiscal cliff and they did it in the name of "principle." In the minds of these members, not renewing the expiring tax rates on the top 2% is the same thing as hiking taxes on the top 2% and, as a matter of conscience, they cannot support a tax hike.

That's their explanation, anyway. I don't buy it. These same members haven't said a peep about the expiring payroll tax holiday. They haven't lifted a finger to avert a tax hike that will hit every single worker starting January 1. So spare me the jawing about conservative principles. These are not principled people.

In fact, while Speaker Boehner was busy whipping votes last night, at least 20 members had already taken off, to eat gumbo. You can tell how seriously these members, including Trey Gowdy and Steve Southerland, take their obligations:

When asked what their thoughts on Plan B were, they went into something of an Abbot and Costello routine.

"Plan B?" said Gowdy. "To gumbo?"

"I hope there isn't a plan B. I was really counting on the gumbo," said Southerland with a laugh.

So, what's the outcome here? Do the defections mean we're going to end up with a more conservative outcome? In a word: NO.

Whatever happens next-- whether we go off the cliff or Boehner cuts a deal with President Obama -- will be worse than Plan B. Obviously the fiscal cliff is a bad deal: it raises taxes for everyone and guts defense spending, but has no entitlement reform. Equally obvious is that any deal made between Boehner and Obama to avert the fiscal cliff will have to be worse -- that is, less conservative -- than Plan B because Boehner is going to have to get Democratic members to vote for it.

That's what happens. A few fringe conservatives revolt and the rest of the GOP caucus -- a majority of GOP members, I might add -- then has to turn to the Democrats for votes. Which means further compromises. By refusing to accept a partial victory, the fringe pushes an eventual deal further to the Left. To be honest, that fringe likes it that way. They get to keep their hands clean and then rail against both Obama and their own party -- no doubt patting themselves on the back the whole time.

The conference meeting Boehner called last night put a spotlight on the deep trouble facing the House GOP. There was no cajoling or bargaining. He quickly explained that he didn't have the votes, led the Pledge of Allegiance, said a prayer, and departed. Even the defectors were stunned. They thought they could act like poo-flinging monkeys and Boehner would still manage to save them from their own folly:

Representative Justin Amash of Michigan, a conservative with libertarian leanings, was stunned. As he walked back to his office, he said the episode was unfortunate, even though he was planning to vote against the measure. For the past month, since House leaders booted him off the budget committee, he has been railing against Boehner for his management style. But even Amash wondered whether the House GOP was making the right move. “Too many people in there were arguing that this thing is a tax increase, and I don’t think that’s what Boehner was trying to do,” he said. As much as he disagrees with Boehner’s approach, even he regretted how the speaker’s plan was killed.

There's much more on the conference from NRO's Robert Costa and it's definitely worth a read.

Was this all really part of a conservative attempt to weaken Speaker Boehner so as to possibly remove him next month? I tend to think it's not. There is no conservative candidate clamoring for the job (who'd want it? it requires compromises and negotiation with fractious members) and, despite these fringe defections, most members recognize Boehner's leadership. And though I doubt the bonafides of the defectors' claims to principle when it comes to taxes, even I don't think they'd go so far as to take us off the cliff just because they don't like Boehner.

The House and Senate are now in recess for the holiday. Obama is an empty suit. Which means we're now hurtling towards the cliff and there isn't anybody in the drivers seat trying to stop it. I see some conservatives (especially on Twitter) saying that we should just go off the cliff and let Obama take the blame. They forget that the House GOP voted for the sequestration part of the cliff. And now they've refused to halt the tax part of the cliff. So the folks who think the GOP won't share the blame for economic disaster are just kidding themselves. The GOP shared power, it will rightly share the blame.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at 06:50 AM



Comments

1 So no Mayan death ray or SMOD? Well it is cold, first day of Winter wth?

Posted by: wierd flunky at December 21, 2012 06:53 AM (X+nFp)

2 I'm not sure gumbo is what I would choose for my last dinner before the end of the world but whatever.

Posted by: Molly k. at December 21, 2012 06:53 AM (0JJPf)

3 Yeah Molly it would have to be some seriously freaking good gumbo.

Posted by: wierd flunky at December 21, 2012 06:55 AM (X+nFp)

4 Good Morning Morons. Today is Friday, December 21, 2012

On this day the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth, Massachusetts.

Because they were out of beer. No shit

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 06:56 AM (53z96)

5 Well it appears that Hagel is not a done deal after all.

http://is.gd/bh5y2p

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 06:57 AM (53z96)

6 You can haz sum worms in dat burger now

http://is.gd/BMjImT

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 06:57 AM (53z96)

7
Hey she’s looking for a hook up! For the final day!

CBD too bad I no longer live in NY but you do~

http://is.gd/vBpLDW

http://is.gd/d1rvmW

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 06:58 AM (53z96)

8 Dooky moves to dooky

http://is.gd/BGwutX

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 06:58 AM (53z96)

9 Let it burn.

The cliff is not a cliff. It is legislation that came about because Boehner couldn't negotiate for shit.

Posted by: Golan Globus at December 21, 2012 06:58 AM (/1U3u)

10 Mark Sanford to run against his wife for House seat number 1.

http://is.gd/EKNRvG

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 06:58 AM (53z96)

11 It appears that Korea is going to make it through the apocalypse unscathed.

Posted by: f2000 at December 21, 2012 06:59 AM (abiX9)

12 I will have to ask my nephew about this guy. He went to school there.

http://is.gd/7ZrqNf

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 06:59 AM (53z96)

13 Pelosi says she was “just kidding”.

http://is.gd/IkwpGB

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 06:59 AM (53z96)

14 I'm heartened that there are still some Republicans that realize that
one of the main planks of conservative dogma is that low levels of
taxation are good and necessary for a proper functioning economy and
society.

Anyone voting in the affirmative is guaranteed a primary challenge.

And
the main reason to vote no on Plan B is it is unprincipled to raise
taxes on a class of people simply because they are vilified for being
successful.

Here is the plan that I would haveput forward and I think it is a good one.

You leave the top two rates unchanged and you lower the others 2 points.

The "rich" don't get a break and the middle class gets a two point reduction.

You
could easily pass it. Then go home and let the Donks and the President
explain why they want to raise the taxes on the middle class.

BOOM! POW

And I am sick and god damned tired of RINO fuck faces like Malor telling people like me to take just one more bullet for team GOP!!!

Boehner got us to this here "fiscal cliff", this is his baby.

FUCK HIM

The GOP leadership has attacked and marginalized the very people who got them their majority - THE TEA PARTY!

This hopefully signals Boehner's last days as House leader.






Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 06:59 AM (RrD4h)

15 800,000 illegals in the US and convicted felons are getting welfare and food?


http://is.gd/k5Bbl6

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 06:59 AM (53z96)

16 Gee who’d a thunk it. Conservatives do not like the Pelosi plan.

http://is.gd/wrJMz1

http://is.gd/ABHbNu

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:00 AM (53z96)

17 Kindle daily deal

http://is.gd/WbIeOJ

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:00 AM (53z96)

18 Christmas Kitteh+

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5002/5347959051_56635ca7e2.jpg

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:00 AM (53z96)

19 We are going to go off the fiscal cliff and the media are going to blame Republicans for it. The next four years are going to suck. America may never recover. This was baked into the cake on election night.

It is nice to see that you still have hope but please don't be offended if I am not that interested in the details of how America goes to hell.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at December 21, 2012 07:00 AM (31Nrp)

20 So the folks who think the GOP won't share the blame for economic
disaster are just kidding themselves. The GOP shared power, it will
rightly share the blame.


No, Gabe, you're wrong. The GOP will not share the blame, they'll have all of it. Boehner had actually constructed a scenario in which the Dems couldn't avoid at least some of the blame, but now we get it all. Yay.

Posted by: pep at December 21, 2012 07:02 AM (USJNU)

21 For Christmas this year, I want the assault weapons ban that crying boner will cave on to not go into effect until I get back from Korea so that I have a chance to pick up a Beretta CX4 Storm in .40 SW.

Posted by: f2000 at December 21, 2012 07:03 AM (abiX9)

22 I would love to play poker with those Republican "defectors."

Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 21, 2012 07:03 AM (iuY0Y)

23 On that note, is there a pool running on which prominent Democrat decides first to call the constitution an assault weapon?

Posted by: f2000 at December 21, 2012 07:03 AM (abiX9)

24 Quit freaking out, Gabe. Plan B was DOA, anyway.

And as far as political positioning, I would think we all would have learned by now that Republicans are not allowed fig leaves. A majority of people are still blaming Bush for the economy. Obama's job approval rating is ridiculously high.

It's like you're shocked at the lack of virtue in that whorehouse on the Potomac. Relax, bud. Lie back and think of England. I don't know if I'd say we tried our best, but we had our shot and now it's over. Burning Time is here.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 07:04 AM (JDIKC)

25 So Gabe doesn't like Gowdy. Who'd a thunk it.

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:04 AM (53z96)

26 hey gabe. you know all that stuff you just wrote? total bullshit. absolute crap. ridiculous nonsense.

never, never, never, never, NEVER trash trey gowdy. he has more integrity and principles in the scat he leaves when he stands back up, than you and all the "sensible repubs" put together.

seriously. just shut up.

Posted by: Dogstar at December 21, 2012 07:05 AM (2MnmS)

27 Having a sobbing rummy like Boehner in a leadership position is emblematic of what a worthless pile of shit the entire Republican party is. There's no evidence he does a fucking thing to keep the troops in line but we're supposed to feel sorry for the hapless cocksucker because he was born over a bar. The donks at least know how to make irritating pains in the ass out of themselves when they're out of power but the strategeic genius tan man is playing golf with the JEF like they're best buds torching a pack of cigs together. Is that really the best they can do?

Posted by: Captain Hate (more dagny and less curious) at December 21, 2012 07:05 AM (szH6p)

28 Jeez Gabe, what a load of garbage.

Oh noes! Some congresscritters aren't taking John Boehner, stalwart leader, seriously?

I cannot for the life of me understand why...

Posted by: BurtTC at December 21, 2012 07:06 AM (BeSEI)

29 Damn! Dogstar bringing the vitriol early in the a.m.

Posted by: wierd flunky at December 21, 2012 07:07 AM (X+nFp)

30 Fiscal cliff = Mayan calendar.

Feel better now?

Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2012 07:08 AM (OZPoa)

31 Plan B was DOA, anyway.

Yes, it was. But now the Dems have a scapegoat for the coming disaster, and we are that goat. Boehner could point to Plan B and tell the voters "we compromised, even against our principles, and yet the Dems weren't interested. So now they own the consequences." Now, we're the bad guys for the coming decession and our philosophy will be blamed for it.

Posted by: pep at December 21, 2012 07:08 AM (USJNU)

32 Is it all about optics and political positioning to some of you idiots?


Where are the principles involved here? Do you have no principles?


We have been losing to win for the last forever and you clowns are jumping up and down for a bill that was designed by Nancy Pelosi because you think it represents some sort of killer jujitsu move by orange crush.


This is what it has come to for the party of Reagan and Lincoln?

Mental midgets all of you!

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 07:10 AM (RrD4h)

33 How many times in this silly little screed did Gabe use the word "cliff?" It's their word. They own it, and you've bought into it. That means they own you.

Congrats Gabe. You are not a free man.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 21, 2012 07:10 AM (BeSEI)

34 Is it all about optics and political positioning to some of you idiots?

Why, yes, yes it is. We can't all be principled moral giants like you. Some of us just want to watch it burn.

Posted by: pep at December 21, 2012 07:14 AM (USJNU)

35 Yes, it was. But now the Dems have a scapegoat for the coming disaster, and we are that goat. Boehner could point to Plan B and tell the voters "we compromised, even against our principles, and yet the Dems weren't interested. So now they own the consequences." Now, we're the bad guys for the coming decession and our philosophy will be blamed for it.

This is a fantasy.

Nobody outside political blogs knows about or is discussing plan B. Even if Boehner did get his useless kabuki theater, nobody would discuss it in two years.

And let's point out, this stupid nightmare scenario is because of Boehner's last 'awesome' political move back in 2011.

Maybe we should actually pass legislation which addresses our problems and defend those.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisl at December 21, 2012 07:14 AM (uhAkr)

36 For the first time I feel at odds with the Tea Party (and Mark Levin) and siding with the establishment. Shit, I hate tax increases, know they'll hurt the economy, but Obama won and taxes will go up. As far as "principle", is the slight rate increase for the $1,000,000+ crowd the hill to die on? What's. Their endgame? Frankly, I don't. Think they have one. They look amateurish and immaure, as their critics have always alleged.

Posted by: I work for Dick Jones at December 21, 2012 07:16 AM (MSrqi)

37 Nobody outside political blogs knows about or is discussing plan B.

I guess you weren't watching when the market futures plummeted last night after the Speaker had to pull the bill?

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 07:16 AM (jZUEZ)

38 Nobody outside political blogs knows about or is discussing plan B.

Let's see. Obama ran on free stuff, including most folks not being taxed to pay for it, just the evil rich. Obama won. Your argument fails.

Posted by: pep at December 21, 2012 07:17 AM (USJNU)

39 SUPER WINTER STORM DRACO!!!!!

Pretty much a bust in my neck of the chopped down woods. (NO. IL) TWC promised lots and lots of doom and gloom. At 1 PM yesterday they were still calling for 3 to 5 inches of snow overnight PLUS 40 MPH WINDS OMG!!!.
By 8 PM last night they took it to a STORM WATCH! Got up this morning and I can see grass through the snow on the ground. The blacktop driveway is mostly black. Just another cold day in December.

CLIMATE CHANGE!!!!!

Posted by: Bruce at December 21, 2012 07:17 AM (j+dTo)

40 "you think it represents some sort of killer jujitsu move by orange crush."

No. We just suck at liberating ourself from principle in devising, discussing and implementing strategy. We're fighting a battle against an unconstrained enemy by trying to apply the rules of constrained warfare. And we can't imagine doing it any other way.

Posted by: f2000 at December 21, 2012 07:17 AM (abiX9)

41



DAY 45

1,415 to go


Mayans, Muzzies, Marxists, Maoists, Mau-Maus, MFM's, Moochelle, McCain's, MIRV's, mutants, malcontents, malignant medical mandates, miscreants, momzers, menstruating mons veneri and miscellaneous meshugas notwithstanding.



DAY 45

1,415 to go


Mayans, Muzzies, Marxists, Maoists, Mau-Maus, MFM's, Moochelle, McCain's, MIRV's, mutants, malcontents, malignant medical mandates, miscreants, momzers, menstruating mons veneri and miscellaneous meshugas notwithstanding.



Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:17 AM (XkWWK)

42 Oops...

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:17 AM (XkWWK)

43 :::32 Plan B was DOA, anyway.

Yes, it was. But now the Dems have a scapegoat for the coming disaster, and we are that goat. Boehner could point to Plan B and tell the voters "we compromised, even against our principles, and yet the Dems weren't interested. So now they own the consequences." Now, we're the bad guys for the coming decession and our philosophy will be blamed for it.
Posted by: pep at December 21, 2012 07:08 AM (USJNU):::

You miss my point.

We were going to get the blame, no matter what.

The market for fiscal conservatism isn't 50.1% of the voting population. And it won't be that big again for a long time. Despite what is decried around here as a horrible economy, the worst since the Great Depression, there are no bread lines, no hobo encampments, no Obamaville shanty towns. And by the time there are, the masses won't be clamouring for more

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 07:18 AM (JDIKC)

44 Plan B or no Plan B, Republicans would take the blame anyway. Reid already said it was DOA, and the Repubs would still be painted as wanting to screw the poor to help the rich.
I'm glad to see that maybe a few house members get it.
I'm hoping (but not kidding myself) that maybe the house boots Crybaby and puts a fighter in as Speaker.

Posted by: spypeach at December 21, 2012 07:18 AM (pwTow)

45 Yiddish word of the day:

"Schtup"

A verb with a couple of meanings.

1) to tip or bribe someone

2) to fornicate

Zei gezunt mein morons.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:18 AM (XkWWK)

46 Shit fuck guys! Gabe is a good egg and y'all set his keyboard on fire!!!

LIB means never having to say you are sorry.

Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 21, 2012 07:18 AM (iuY0Y)

47 So Gabe doesn't like Gowdy. Who'd a thunk it.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean, Vic.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 07:20 AM (jZUEZ)

48 I agree with you, Gabe, on the petulance and foolishness of the dissenting members, but you behave as if Plan B would have passed. It would not. It was going nowhere fast and our corrupt media was not even going to permit it to be a PR victory.

It really doesn't matter.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 21, 2012 07:20 AM (xSegX)

49 :::32 Plan B was DOA, anyway.

Yes, it was. But now the Dems have a scapegoat for the coming disaster, and we are that goat. Boehner could point to Plan B and tell the voters "we compromised, even against our principles, and yet the Dems weren't interested. So now they own the consequences." Now, we're the bad guys for the coming decession and our philosophy will be blamed for it.
Posted by: pep at December 21, 2012 07:08 AM (USJNU):::

You miss my point.

We were going to get the blame, no matter what.

The market for fiscal conservatism isn't 50.1% of the voting population. And it won't be that big again for a long time. Despite what is decried around here as a horrible economy, the worst since the Great Depression, there are no bread lines, no hobo encampments, no Obamaville shanty towns. And by the time there are, the masses won't be clamouring for more personal accountability, they'll be demanding more free shit.

Look at Greece. Look at France, Italy or Spain. It's over. The bums won.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 07:20 AM (JDIKC)

50 I guess you weren't watching when the market futures plummeted last night after the Speaker had to pull the bill?

Didn't you admit it was just theater? So they wanted a ceremonial vote?

Remember when a credit downgrade would lose us the 2012 election?

It never changes.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisl at December 21, 2012 07:21 AM (uhAkr)

51 oops forgot word of the day





conversazione




PRONUNCIATION:

(kon-vuhr-sayt-see-O-nee, kahn-, -nay)




MEANING:

noun: A formal gathering for conversation, especially on arts, literature, etc.

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:22 AM (53z96)

52 I don't even know what that's supposed to mean, Vic.


Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 07:20 AM (jZUEZ)

It speaks for itself
You don't like Gowdy

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:22 AM (53z96)

53 You miss my point.

We were going to get the blame, no matter what.


No, I didn't miss it. Yes, we would have gotten lots of the blame, at least short term, but I think Obama's act was starting to wear thin. The coming disaster is inevitable, but what you want in that case is to draw the strongest possible contrast for when it finally dawns on folks that what they voted for isn't working. Sticking to principle with no deviations at all does that, but only if the other guy can't then convince people that principle is just obstructionism and obstinacy, and like it or not, the Dems are very good at that.

Posted by: pep at December 21, 2012 07:23 AM (USJNU)

54 It speaks for itself
You don't like Gowdy


It really doesn't. I barely know who Gowdy is. I included him above because of his gumbo quote. You seem to think I have some sort of beef with him or something. As far as I can remember, I've never written about him before. A google search didn't turn anything up either. So gimme a clue here, what are you talking about?

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 07:26 AM (jZUEZ)

55 I do admire the politicians that want to jump on the gun debate and have something DONE about them damn guns yesterday if not sooner. But the "fiscal cliff" that was coming and known and even had a date, is treated like a 8th grade book report.

Oh mom, it isn't due until Monday. I finish it on Sunday night. Honest!

Posted by: Bruce at December 21, 2012 07:26 AM (j+dTo)

56 Let's see. Obama ran on free stuff, including most folks not being taxed to pay for it, just the evil rich. Obama won. Your argument fails.

I was under the impression - pushed by many here - that boehner's grand bargain in 2011 had secured electoral victory.

But nope, it didn't fucking matter. The free shit army you speak of has no memory for procedural trick votes.

They don't give a shit.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisl at December 21, 2012 07:26 AM (uhAkr)

57 So wait the Republicans should have voted for Plan B which Pelosi was cackling about having broken Boehner like a bitch over, and that would have ended up being the most conservative position because the Dems weren't going to vote for it anyway. So now -NOW- Republicans will get blame. Because before they were riding high on public opinion.

Jeebus the stupid is strong here.

Posted by: Golan Globus at December 21, 2012 07:27 AM (/1U3u)

58 Yep, we would have won this political theater ploy this time. The press would have been forced to say the (R)'s wanted a tax cut for 99% and it was the big bad Obama that caused the fiscal cliff. If only for those 20 people, a public relations victory was ours.
It's fuck'n lunacy but it's going to be spewed all day by our intellectual betters.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 21, 2012 07:27 AM (GZitp)

59 Posted by: Bruce at December 21, 2012 07:26 AM (j+dTo)

+1

Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2012 07:28 AM (OZPoa)

60 We pass a 90 day extension next week and go home. The decision will become Obama's then. In a press conference the Speaker should say the President has a chance this week to prevent an Obama Depression or not. If he chooses not to extend for 90 days he owns the next Depression. Say it like that and let markets dive. The Speaker should also say there will be no more lame duck sessions and rules will be changed, this is Obama's last lame duck session. And he should inform Obama that budgets will be passed on a department basis and spending will be cut and he can choose to shut down individual departments if he wants but spending will be cut and the House has the purse strings not him.

Posted by: Brad at December 21, 2012 07:28 AM (4wewJ)

61 Yes we were going to get the blame no matter what happens.

The problem with allowing taxes to go up, even a penny, on anyone is that it is a de facto admission BY OUR OWN SIDE that conservatism doesn't work.

THAT is the real end game for SCOAMF and the left - the total destruction of not only our party and movement, but of the American system of limited government, low tax, pro growth economics.

The problem is, no one on our side except for people like Rush, Levin and the Tea Party cons in Congress are saying this.

LET IT BURN.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:28 AM (XkWWK)

62 Saying that the next step involves pulling in democrats makes a very questionable assumption: that any plan to bring Democrats on board won't bleed Republicans faster than it gains Democrats.

Boehner needed leverage. This gives it to him. He can now look Obama in the eye and say "We've already moved left further than my party can handle. Time for you to move right." Until now, Obama has deluded himself into thinking Boehner had the votes to pass whatever far-left plan Obama wanted. Now Boehner can point to the failed vote and honestly say "If you want us on board, it's your turn."

Posted by: Sayyid at December 21, 2012 07:29 AM (oxFG6)

63 I was under the impression - pushed by many here - that boehner's grand bargain in 2011 had secured electoral victory.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I didn't push it as securing electoral victory, I accepted it as necessary to enable electoral victory. Big difference.

Posted by: pep at December 21, 2012 07:29 AM (USJNU)

64 It's going to be fun losing the house in '14. You think it's bad now, the wait until the left has all three branches sewn up.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at December 21, 2012 07:29 AM (l3vZN)

65 If you can get to Bethesda MD and want great gumbo.

http://tinyurl.com/buzjotx

Louisiana Kitchen - It's worth the drive, great etouffee sp? too.


Posted by: DaveA at December 21, 2012 07:29 AM (Xefrb)

66 The bums won.


I beg you pardon, SIR!

Posted by: The Big Lebowski at December 21, 2012 07:30 AM (z9HTb)

67 I just don't think so, pep. We've waited a long time for Obama's act to wear thin with the voting public and we're still waiting.

Unless a nuke goes off on American soil, I don't see his popularity waning. And maybe not even then. He could probably get away with blaming Bush. It's worked so far

I have zero confidence in my fellow Americans. They've completely abandoned the ambition and drive that made us great for a fucking check and an Obamaphone. Fuck 'em. It's time for them to get the government they deserve.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 07:30 AM (JDIKC)

68 The President and his crew have been crowing that their endgame on the fiscal cliff is the destruction of the Republican Party. They don't give a shit about what the economy does, so long as they can say bad things about Republicans.

I think the Tea Partiers just saved Boehner.

Posted by: Golan Globus at December 21, 2012 07:31 AM (/1U3u)

69 Can we at least have a mini-apoc for this thread? Drat. This is my fault. I've been goodish so the blessed insanity of cthulhu will not heed my begging.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. We're not worthy. at December 21, 2012 07:31 AM (Gk3SS)

70
" the House has the purse strings not him. "



But Obama owns and controls the bitch holding the purse...There will be no spending cuts in anything other than military spending. There will be no department closures.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at December 21, 2012 07:31 AM (N+Crj)

71 pep, you keep waiting for it to "completely dawn on folks". It won't. They don't connect Obama's actions to any consequences.

There is no dawning. They think it's "Us-vs.-Them" and no amount of evidence, economics or evisceration will convince them that voting Democrat is bad for them.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 21, 2012 07:31 AM (xSegX)

72

As I have said before:

If we do not choose a hill to die on, the left will choose a ditch for us to die in.


Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:32 AM (XkWWK)

73 Gabe is right. Oh hay, remember when we said Obama was an uncompromising ideologue? And that made him bad? Well, we've just made our party look even worse - because we've just shown that the only people we care about are "millionaires and billionaires". It will be a long time before we can shake that. Bravo..........

Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 07:32 AM (f16c6)

74 Plan B didn't matter. The Kenyan Klepto was going to veto it anyway. The House already passed an extension of the current rates (all of them). The House should go home and stay home until the new House is sworn in in January. Let the Senate pass the extension if the Dems want to keep taxes down.

Voters know now that Republicans are the party of "no tax increases" BECAUSE Plan B didn't pass. Taxes will go up (thanks Dems!). The economy will dive. There will be another downgrade of our bonds in 2013.

As far as spending goes, the fiscal cliff is not a disaster, rather it is a "good start". Republicans need to be the party of "spending cuts", just as they are the party of "no tax increases".

In 2014, the voters (low and high info) will say "this sucks" and vote for a change by voting against the party in power.

The economy will continue to suck and gridlock will continue through 2016 when the Republicans will have another chance to nominate a Conservative. (please God, not Jeb or Donut Boy). I'll admit I'm not hopeful.

Another lost 4 years, thanks to the Democrat-Communist party and their main constituency, the Retard Vote.

The Republicans can at least maintain their reputations.

Posted by: Heywood Broun at December 21, 2012 07:33 AM (i/BcK)

75 Whatever one thinks about Plan B, Boehner had no business bringing a bill to the floor he didn't yet have the votes for.

He should be outsted for sheer incompetence if nothing else.

Posted by: Jose/ningrim at December 21, 2012 07:33 AM (srIqv)

76 The Speaker does not need to be a member of the House. Perfect time to go for Biz Markie!

Posted by: Golan Globus at December 21, 2012 07:33 AM (/1U3u)

77 @68 and 72

I guess we'll find out. I hope you're both wrong. If you aren't, there won't be much satisfaction in it for you.

Posted by: pep at December 21, 2012 07:34 AM (USJNU)

78 "Well, we've just made our party look even worse - because we've just
shown that the only people we care about are "millionaires and
billionaires". It will be a long time before we can shake that. Bravo."

Yep, don't blame Boehner for pushing this piece of legislation/gimmick when he didn't have the votes or even bother finding out if he did. It's all the fault of those twenty.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 21, 2012 07:35 AM (GZitp)

79 Anyone who believes that we were going to win on the tax increase front is stupid. There is no other word for it. STUPID. Once the economy tanked, people became convinced that Bush was to blame, and the free-stuff brigade came to power, tax cuts were done. You can rail and rant and tell people how much they don't understand about taxes and the economy and you will never, never, never convince most people that you are right.

Is Boehner useless as a majority leader? Absolutely. The problem is that, given the current political climate, it doesn't mater who is in that chair. As has been pointed out 10,000 times on this blog, the Republicans will get the blame if things go south and the Dems will get the credit if things improve. It's baked in the cake that way. The best we can hope for is to minimize the damage. Blindly sticking to your principles in the face of certain (PR) disaster does nothing to help the situation. The defenders f the Alamo and Goliad sacrificed their lives to give Sam Houston time to assemble an army to ultimately defeat Santa Ana. But that's the rub: They gave their lives, but it was worth it.. If you are going to take a stand and sacrifice your career, you better make sure it is a principle that is worth dying for. I don't think that a small tax increase on million-dollar plus incomes is the hill for that stand.

Politics is and always will be the art of compromise. There are 435 representatives, all with their own views on every issue. You will never find a a solution that is truly palatable to all of them, so you have to shoot for one that will attract a majority of them. Boehner actually played this as well as he could given the poor starting position he had. He was facing a man who, despite screwing up every single thing he as done in office, still won re-election. A man who is backed by the free-stuff brigade. A man who has said, "You'll get nothing and like it!" In that situation, Boehner had actually forged a position that could eke out a small victory and actually put the President slightly on the defensive and put an end to the (mistaken) idea that he has given and given and given and the Republicans won't compromise. Instead, a handful of shitheads decided to bring down the entire party.

In the end, the Republicans will be forced to give in to every single one of the President's demands and then pray that this destroys America. Good call.

Posted by: Zombie John Gotti at December 21, 2012 07:35 AM (Gkhxf)

80 gabe, what the guy means is trey is an awesome, fire-breathing conservative. not exactly your type. anyone could have seen that coming.

Posted by: Dogstar at December 21, 2012 07:35 AM (2MnmS)

81 So, what's the reason we can't do that thing where the GOP votes present on a bill to make the current rates permanent for 98%?

Posted by: Jon (not the troll) at December 21, 2012 07:35 AM (1wPNG)

82 Let me try to inject some perspective here. That ground rushing up at us means we are already over the cliff. It has been visible since early November.

Posted by: dogfish at December 21, 2012 07:35 AM (N2yhW)

83 I agree with the Tea Party Caucus.

When you eat 3/4 of a loaf of bread that just means that you're starving slower.

Why, just the other day my boss offered to keep me in the fold if I would accept a small pay cut. I told him to fire me. I'd rather be jobless than to accept anything less than 100% of my current salary. It's the principle that matters the most, not the lost money or the lost employment or the lost benefits or the negative ripple effects.

Posted by: Sharron Akin O'Mourdock at December 21, 2012 07:36 AM (r2PLg)

84 I have come to view the Bush tax cuts going away as a good thing.

As much as it pains me that I will be paying more into that cesspool run by Boehner, Reid and the JEF .... I take refuge in the fact that many free loaders will be put back onto the tax rolls.

Its more than coincidence that the % of those not paying taxes is about the same as the % who voted for Big Ears

To quote our Dear Leader --- "We all need to have some skin in the game"

Some of those lounging on the upper decks will be forced to grab a (small) paddle and join in.

After all "Elections have consequences"

Posted by: Mark E at December 21, 2012 07:36 AM (w5RwR)

85 Gowdy is a conservative, Gabe. Come on, we know you're not THAT stupid.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 21, 2012 07:37 AM (BeSEI)

86 74 Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 07:32 AM (f16c6)


The problem is not what the left will say about us. The problem is that we do not have a leadership who can clearly articulate WHY raising taxes on anyone is utterly wrong.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:37 AM (XkWWK)

87 We are already in a free fall after the fiscal cliff. Only a moron can't acknowledge that.

Letting it burn is the only option.

Posted by: Valiant at December 21, 2012 07:38 AM (aFxlY)

88 So Plan B is dead. Did anyone ask "If we don't pass Plan B, what is the expected outcome?"

I think pep is right. Without the passing of Plan B (dead on arrival to the Senate, according to Reid) then we are going to have this hung around our necks like that smelly old albatross.

The point of passing Plan B was to demonstrate that "Obama with Harry Reid's help wants to raise taxes on everyone and keep the economy stalled."

Now the dems will have a perfect opportunity to say "The GOP defends the evil rich at the expense of the hard-working middle class."

Whatever. I am sick of hearing about "principles" from legislators who seem to only have principles when it makes a good pose on TV.

And might I point out that while we have our share of moderates who cower in fear of the Washington Post and NBC, we also have some conservatives who pay way too much attention to talk radio and the conservative press.


Posted by: Miss Marple at December 21, 2012 07:38 AM (GoIUi)

89 Another member of the Let it Burn caucus here - but it amazes me that the house conservatives don't realize that sabotaging your own leadership is *never* going to result in any gains for your side. Sure, plan B wasn't going to get passed by the Senate, but it would have made the House look like it had a plan.

Now, the stock market is going to crash and every talking head - who yesterday were foolishly saying a deal is near - are now going to be saying 24/7 that the failure happened because of an inept and disjointed house caucus. The dissenters just handed them that storyline on a silver platter.

Now we're going back into recession, and thanks to this idiocy Obama can say it's still all Republicans fault.

Kiss the 2014 elections away.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 21, 2012 07:39 AM (hTDbY)

90 It's the principle that matters the most, not the
lost money or the lost employment or the lost benefits or the negative
ripple effects.

Posted by: Sharron Akin O'Mourdock


Don't forget us!

Posted by: Twinkie bakers at December 21, 2012 07:40 AM (USJNU)

91 What some of you nitwits don't seem to understand is that SOME of us are auditioning the Republican Party, to see if it has a shred of relevance in our lives.

So far, the leadership isn't winning any adherents. Some members of congress will, and they'll probably go with us when (if?) we formally abandon the Party.

But keep acting like it's "us" against them.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 21, 2012 07:40 AM (BeSEI)

92 Wait, someone explain again what Plan B was supposed to win for our side again? Because it wasn't even going to go to vote in the Senate.

Posted by: Golan Globus at December 21, 2012 07:40 AM (/1U3u)

93 And if he's going to veto the bill anyway, why not pass a bill that really spurs growth:

1) 10% tax cuts across the board for everyone
2) Corporate tax rate cut to 16%
3) End baseline budgeting.
4) Return spending to Clinton levels 1996.

Then have someone with a brain and a heart get up there and explain it.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:40 AM (XkWWK)

94 :::I guess we'll find out. I hope you're both wrong. If you aren't, there won't be much satisfaction in it for you.:::

You think I'm happy about it? I'm just pointing out what I observe. Gloating about it is DrewM's gig, not mine.

I don't like what's happening, but life doesn't give a shit about my preferences. Therefore I take the necessary measures to ensure my family's prosperity and hang the rest. Not my problem, anymore.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 07:41 AM (JDIKC)

95 "The Speaker does not need to be a member of the House"

Oh? Speaker Palin.....

Posted by: f2000 at December 21, 2012 07:41 AM (abiX9)

96 So Boehner displays leadership and Pelosi's plan is the most conservative we can get?


Huh.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 21, 2012 07:42 AM (da5Wo)

97 J. J. Sefton - yeah, but our purist Repubs have made it clear that protecting the millionaires and billionaires takes priority over protecting more than 98% of Americans from tax increases. Indefensible.

Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 07:42 AM (f16c6)

98 "But Obama owns and controls the bitch holding the purse...There will be no spending cuts in anything other than military spending. There will be no department closures."

There is enough crap in the budget you can take out that even Obama can't win the messaging war. You think Obama can defend spending billions on horse seman studies, bunny penis studies, and hundreds other crap studies like that. Let Obama go to the American people and say he shut down the FDA because those mean Republicans won't let him pump horses for sperm. The problem is we don't have many Republicans that actually care to stop spending and that's a fact. The Speaker promised to budget by department two years ago and broke his promise. I personally want a new Speaker - and two years is ages in politics and I don't predict midterms two years out that's stupid. (this isn't directed at the poster)

Posted by: Brad at December 21, 2012 07:42 AM (4wewJ)

99 I can't speak for everyone else, but I didn't push it as securing electoral victory, I accepted it as necessary to enable electoral victory. Big difference.

It enabled this, and we still got the credit downgrade.

Future-casting always fails. Push for your policies, because you might not have another chance.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisl at December 21, 2012 07:42 AM (uhAkr)

100 "Obama ran on free stuff, including most folks not being taxed to pay for it, just the evil rich."

And now the contingent of low information voters that actually work get to see their taxes go up in January to pay for the other LIV's free shit, while the latter get to see their free shit cut.

I don't see how this is a good thing for Obama.

Fuck Boehner up his orange RINO ass.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 07:43 AM (w9BpZ)

101 74 -

I care about "millionaires and billionaires." People otherwise known as employers.

The bum on the street isn't hiring.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 21, 2012 07:43 AM (BeSEI)

102 Just.Do.Nothing. The return to the permanent tax rates and the planned sequestration is the best deal that we are likely to get.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 21, 2012 07:43 AM (QupBk)

103 Karl Denninger brings out the heavy lumber:

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=215162

Posted by: rickl at December 21, 2012 07:43 AM (sdi6R)

104 80 "...Politics is and always will be the art of compromise..."
Posted by: Zombie John Gotti at December 21, 2012 07:35 AM (Gkhxf)


You do not compromise your principles or the central tenets of conservatism. That is what the left wants us to do. They NEVER compromise, even when they are in the minority. And every time we enter into these grand bargains they promise to pay us next Tuesday for the hamburger they get now.

ENOUGH.

It's time to dig in and fight like hell.


Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:44 AM (XkWWK)

105 >>>SUPER WINTER STORM DRACO!!!!!

Well, that's good news. They're still predicting DOOM for us and we're nervous about the road trip through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois,Wisconsin.

We will leave a trail of Val U Rite bottles so you can find us and will pack extra bark for emergency soup rations.

Posted by: uterus cannon at December 21, 2012 07:44 AM (3ZtZW)

106 A google search didn't turn anything up either. So gimme a clue here, what are you talking about?


Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 07:26 AM (jZUEZ)

Trey Gowdy. Outspoken congressman from SC.

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:44 AM (53z96)

107 Damn, I'm late to the poo-flinging contest!

Posted by: Truman North (D) at December 21, 2012 07:44 AM (I2LwF)

108 Yes, elections have consequences. And this time around voting for Obama meant raising your own taxes, even if you can't afford it.

How much longer are we going to pretend the semi-rich (and $250K/yr. is not rich) aren't paying their fair share? They pay far more than their fair share, and a greater tax percentage at their income percentage than nearly anywhere on Earth.

How long are we going to pretend that millions upon millions in this country don't in fact want a "hand up," they want hand outs, pure and simple. They don't want to work and pay their own way. They are scamming the system left and right. They're freeloaders who need to get off their asses, get a job, and pay their fair share too.

The President is more than an empty suit -- he is a lying, racist, class-divider who hates traditional America, and I see no reason to go along with his plans to further damage this country.

Elections do indeed have consequences, and going off this inaptly named metaphorical cliff is one of them.

Posted by: Let's put our cards on the table at December 21, 2012 07:45 AM (bS6uW)

109 Side note for regarding DC. There is this "we are still a southern town" vibe that still shows up in the cooking and restaurants. A variant of that are the pathetic attempts to cook "Cajun" style. And it gets worse the closer you get to Capital Hill.

Dave A, I'm glad to see the recommendation. Next time I'm over that way I will look it up.

Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 21, 2012 07:45 AM (iuY0Y)

110 I both agree and disagree with Gabe, BTW.

I think the GOP should have passed Plan B and gone home purely to put the ball in the Dems' court. The optics of us negotiating with ourselves in public are fucking awful, and that would have put an end to it for a little while. (presuming we were smart enough and had message discipline ... so maybe not)

But Plan B is a purely political move that doesn't do shit about the "fiscal cliff" or our fucked up federal finances, so the ZOMFG!!11! We're All Gonna Die!! reaction to the fact that this particular bill didn't pass the house is a bit much. It wasn't ever going to become law anyway, and the resulting compromise, if any, was always going to be left of here as it set a cap on our negotiating position.

And as far as the market goes, futures indicate an open on the Dow that's roughly where the index sat the day before the election. Panic NOW!!!

Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2012 07:45 AM (OZPoa)

111
108
Damn, I'm late to the poo-flinging contest!

Posted by: Truman North (D) at December 21, 2012 07:44 AM (I2LwF)


Don't worry. There's still plenty to fling. I haven't even seen a mention of Truuuueee Cons yet. And just wait till we get to the SoCons!

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 21, 2012 07:45 AM (da5Wo)

112
You do not compromise your principles or the
central tenets of conservatism.


Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:44 AM (XkWWK)
It is not a "central tenet of conservatism" that rates on millionaires must never rise by a few percent.

Posted by: Jon (not the troll) at December 21, 2012 07:47 AM (1wPNG)

113 :::Wait, someone explain again what Plan B was supposed to win for our side again? Because it wasn't even going to go to vote in the Senate:::

A theoretical glowing write-up in the mainstream press for the GOP's principled stand. Which would then lead to a massive groundswell of support and electoral victories in 2014 and 2016.

Some of us keep thinking that Lucy will hold the football still THIS time if we just pass Plan B.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 07:47 AM (JDIKC)

114 98 J. J. Sefton - yeah, but our purist Repubs have made it clear that protecting the millionaires and billionaires takes priority over protecting more than 98% of Americans from tax increases. Indefensible.
Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 07:42 AM (f16c6)


You miss the point. ANY BILL that Boehner would present would be DOA. Harry Reid admitted as much. 6 fucking weeks ago, we could have presented a bill saying tax cuts for the bottom 3 income levels should be cut X% and for the highest level it should remain the same. Then present a plan to cut spending, pass the damn bill and GO HOME.

Ball and blame is in their court.

We are not protecting millionaires and billionaires. We are protecting EVERY tax paying citizen by rejecting tax hikes on anyone. THAT should be the message, not agreeing that taxes on anyone should go up.

NO.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:47 AM (XkWWK)

115 is that smoke i smell?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 21, 2012 07:47 AM (GVxQo)

116 Well, I’d say thanks for the news, Gabe, but. . .meh. And I’m afraid I have to agree with the others posting here; if you think the Dems will catch any of the blame for the coming crash, you’re (to be kind) delusional. How much more MFM malfeasance do you have to see to know that they are not honest brokers and will shield the Dems to the end?


Anyway, thanks for the links, Vic. If anybody wants to give politics a big middle finger and follow me over to old-time Hollywood, here are a couple of stories:


The young actress Joan Loring was signed by Warner Brothers to play in Bette Davis’ 1945 movie The Corn Is Green. This was both a surprise and a worry to her, as she had been told repeatedly by casting offices that she wasn’t pretty enough for the movies. The thought preyed so much on her mind, in fact, that she developed a serious complex, which did not go unnoticed by Davis.


During one day when the cast was gathered to watch the rushes (raw footage shot the previous day), part of what was shown was Loring playing a young seductress. She looked much older on film, however, and – remembering the casting offices’ comments - was embarrassed at seeing hers plain self on the screen. She dropped down lower and lower in her chair; by the time her close-up was over, she was practically on the floor, cringing in self-disgust.


Suddenly, she heard a voice from the row of seats behind her, whispering so softly that nobody else would hear: “When I first came to this studio, there was a very beautiful actress on the lot. When we would come to rushes, her mother would say every time there was a close-up of her, ‘There’s my beautiful darling now.’. . .But,” Bette Davis finished, reaching to pat Loring reassuredly on the shoulder, “I’m still here!”


Now, here’s a story I like, not just for the theme of wishes fulfilled, but because our hero displays a masculine ease and brioI’d give anything to have:


When he was a young boy in Ireland, one of Richard Harris’ bedtime goddesses was the actress Merle Oberon. Come the 1960s, Harris was an up and coming star and happened to find himself at a Hollywood party hosted by Oberon. In her 50s at the time, she was widely regarded as a has-been, but Harris didn’t care. Summoning up the courage to approach her, he stared into her eyes and said, “Merle, I have fantasized about you, kissed every part of you and made love to you in every position that man has conceived.” Startled, Oberon merely looked back at Harris for a moment before walking away. But when all the other guests were leaving, he was invited to stay. “These fantasies of yours,” Oberon asked, “do you think you would like to make them come true?”


Harris, in a trance of wonderment, followed his dream into the bedroom. Ripping his clothes off, he waited eagerly for the screen goddess to appear from the bathroom. She came out in a see-through nightgown, “with nothing on underneath, and all I could see were these fabulous tits and a gorgeous black bush.” Once in bed, she went to turn off the light, but Harris stopped her. “Merle, if you’re going to turn the lights off I might as well be back in my little bed in Limerick.” Laughing, Oberon left the lights blazing as the two made love.


“The fantasy was better, though,” Harris later sighed in disappointment. “Fantasies always are.”


And that’s it for me. If we live through the day, I hope you all have a wonderful weekend. See you on Monday.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at December 21, 2012 07:48 AM (zF6Iw)

117
Posted by: uterus cannon at December 21, 2012 07:44 AM (3ZtZW




Im south of highway80-90 in indiana and we have less than one inch of snow.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at December 21, 2012 07:48 AM (N+Crj)

118 @103 zackly. Any deal to avert "the cliff" will undoubtedly be worse than the cliff.

Posted by: Golan Globus at December 21, 2012 07:48 AM (/1U3u)

119 it requires compromises and negotiation with fractious members)"

oh yeah Pelosi was famous for compromising.

Posted by: Mr Pink at December 21, 2012 07:49 AM (7zVKs)

120 @ 90 -- Now, the stock market is going to crash and every talking head - who
yesterday were foolishly saying a deal is near - are now going to be
saying 24/7 that the failure happened because of an inept and disjointed
house caucus. The dissenters just handed them that storyline on a
silver platter.




Posted by: Tom Servo at December 21, 2012 07:39 AM (hTDbY)


With you on the burn ...
However ...
Last week the stock market crash was because some democrat loonie shot up a school.The week before it crash because of the looming cliffThe week before that it crashed due to worse than expected Black Friday Cyber MondayThe week before that it crashed because ....
The stock market is tanking and will continue to fall, offset only by Stimulus 5 (or which ever number we are up to now).

Remember -- objective fact = economy sucks and we are in the Great Obama Depression. Everything else is Media / democrat / RNC spin

Posted by: Mark E at December 21, 2012 07:49 AM (w5RwR)

121

Hmmm, I'm still here.

Posted by: staring at the sun at December 21, 2012 07:49 AM (LpQbZ)

122 The GOP won't share the blame; the Media will see to it they take all of it.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at December 21, 2012 07:50 AM (xjpRj)

123 113
You do not compromise your principles or the
central tenets of conservatism.


Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:44 AM (XkWWK)
It is not a "central tenet of conservatism" that rates on millionaires must never rise by a few percent.
Posted by: Jon (not the troll) at December 21, 2012 07:47 AM (1wPNG)


And you're saying a progressive tax is?! Please. Taxes in a sane world be would be a flat percentage for everyone, regardless of income level.

What you are saying is a central tenet of Marxism.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:50 AM (XkWWK)

124

Same ole song and dance.

Every year, just before the holidays.

Every year.

Posted by: kabuki shuffle at December 21, 2012 07:51 AM (LpQbZ)

125 A theoretical glowing write-up in the mainstream
press for the GOP's principled stand. Which would then lead to a massive
groundswell of support and electoral victories in 2014 and 2016.





Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 07:47 AM (JDIKC)


Did you know that hysterical laughter can lead to choking on your own tongue? I didn't either. But now I do.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 21, 2012 07:51 AM (da5Wo)

126 J. J. Sefton 115 - yes, that should be the message, but it will only be heard in our own echo chamber. Meanwhile, Boehner looks like he's been betrayed by ideologues who love themselves some plutocrats. Which message do you think the media will feed low information voters? How many moderate Republicans will abandon the party in disgust? How many Republicans are hard core purists that want to protect millionaires+ at the expense of every other American?

Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 07:51 AM (f16c6)

127 Posted by: uterus cannon at December 21, 2012 07:44 AM (3ZtZW)



Northeast Ohio barely has a dusting of snow with maybe a little bit more due to fall. Yesterday evening the local weather girl on TV was saying that the forecast was trending toward the low end of accumulation ranges and the sun might actually come out this afternoon. So I think you should be in good shape for your drive.

Posted by: Captain Hate (more dagny and less curious) at December 21, 2012 07:52 AM (szH6p)

128 111 -

Some Republicans in the House don't vote for tax increases.

They consider it a basic principle. But now we have so-called "conservatives" in the media, and small minds around here lambasting them for defending "millionaires and billionaires."


Posted by: BurtTC at December 21, 2012 07:52 AM (BeSEI)

129 anyone who uses the misbegotton term "purist" is an asshole shit eater and a troll.

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:53 AM (53z96)

130 >> A theoretical glowing write-up in the mainstream press for the GOP's principled stand. Which would then lead to a massive groundswell of support and electoral victories in 2014 and 2016.

Don't forget the permanent GOP majority and resurrection of Reagan.

Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2012 07:54 AM (OZPoa)

131
130
anyone who uses the misbegotton term "purist" is an asshole shit eater and a troll.


Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:53 AM (53z96)


I'm pretty sure you just insulted at least two of the Cobs.
LMAO

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 21, 2012 07:54 AM (da5Wo)

132 Just.Do.Nothing. The return to the permanent tax rates and the planned sequestration is the best deal that we are likely to get.

This. We will do better after negotiating with our bad-faith adversaries than what we already have in hand right now.

Posted by: Let's put our cards on the table at December 21, 2012 07:54 AM (bS6uW)

133 Do it. Do it, already. C'mon, I'm here.

Posted by: Fiscal Cliff at December 21, 2012 07:55 AM (/ZZCn)

134 "Which message do you think the media will feed low information voters?"

The same message they were going to feed them no matter what.

You and Malor just don't get it, do you? The fix is in. Abandoning the few principles the GOP has left isn't going to change that in the slightest.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 07:55 AM (w9BpZ)

135 ^^^ We will do no better ....

Posted by: Let's put our cards on the table at December 21, 2012 07:56 AM (bS6uW)

136 127 How many Republicans are hard core purists that want to protect millionaires+ at the expense of every other American?
Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 07:51 AM (f16c6)

Why do you keep writing this meme? We are not protecting millionaires and billionaires? We cannot allow taxes to go up on ANYONE because it would destroy the movement. Period.

The problem is no one is in a leadership position to articulate this. And when you raise taxes on the so-called wealthiest, you are raising taxes on people who invest in business and create opportunities.

This should have been done weeks ago - YEARS AGO. As I said, at the least, pass a bill cutting taxes on the bottom 3 income levels and leave the top to untouched. Then go home and announce the ball is in SCOAMF's court.

You really have to stop using the language of the left lest you want to be seen as a concern troll.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:56 AM (XkWWK)

137 Big government costs. It's time to show the LiV how much.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 21, 2012 07:57 AM (QupBk)

138 @115


Preach it brother!

It's about principle, we have gotten to this precarious position because our leaders are unprincipled hacks.

Boehners a climber, he is not a leader.

He has been in congress for over 20 years and has learned nothing, he is a mewling blubbering quisling.

It was his brilliant strategery that got us here and now we are asked to compromise on the central tenant of conservatism so as not to humiliate the speaker?

FUCK THAT SHIT!

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 07:58 AM (RrD4h)

139 You really have to stop using the language of the left lest you want to be seen as a concern troll.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:56 AM (XkWWK)


You are asking a shit eater troll to quit trolling?
Surely you jest

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:58 AM (53z96)

140 Didn't Boehner put himself in this spot with the BCA of 2011?

Perhaps he should have done more then instead of kicking the can down the road for a year.

Perhaps he should have one more to get the "fringe" as you call it more involved.

Speaking of "fringe", is it really fringe if 35 of them ar doing it?

Posted by: Shingle at December 21, 2012 07:59 AM (PshFG)

141 Why are we suddenly so invested in the payroll taxcut?


Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at December 21, 2012 07:59 AM (NL15p)

142 J. J. Sefton - well, lets see how the movement fares in 2014. One of us will be right. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm really hoping I am. But I think we are headed out into the wilderness now as a party. The free shit army doesn't like what we're selling, and we're making ourselves more irrelevant.

Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 08:00 AM (f16c6)

143 The GOP shared power, it will rightly share the blame.


The GOP will share 99.3% of the blame.

Bush will garner a %.
Palin, maybe 1/2 %.
The evil Jooos, a %.
Whitey's a good 1.5%
Guns, a % or so.
Pro-life, a solid %.
Christmas & God, another solid %.

Posted by: kabuki shuffle at December 21, 2012 08:00 AM (LpQbZ)

144 140 You are asking a shit eater troll to quit trolling?
Surely you jest
Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:58 AM (53z96)

Gerg is an easy target. It became obvious that this yutzik was a lefty after he used the same meme a few times.

And don't call me Shirley!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 08:00 AM (XkWWK)

145 Oh, and to clarify my comment at 111, the only reason I think they should have passed it was because Boehner jammed us by rushing to publicly embrace "revenues" as part of a deal before election day was even over.

He fucked up our negotiating position from the get-go.

The posture should have been, "the 'fiscal cliff' is the only way we seem to be able to get a spending cut in DC, so we're fine with it. And as far as taxes go, we can't have Europe-sized government without paying Europe-sized taxes, and the people have just spoken in favor of the former. FYNQ."

Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2012 08:01 AM (OZPoa)

146 Cute puppy video because it's almost Christmas and this thread is on fire
http://tinyurl.com/cl7ol86

Posted by: spypeach at December 21, 2012 08:01 AM (pwTow)

147 143 Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 08:00 AM (f16c6)

If you keep using the language of the left and saying we have to surrender (in your words "compromise") then we will be in the wilderness.

We have to stand on principle AND we have to articulate our position.

Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 08:02 AM (XkWWK)

148 If John Boehner is a conservative stalwart who deserves support, why is there no room for Jim DeMint in the the Senate, why have Republicans accomplished or attempted so little, and why is the establishment strategy on mass illegal immigration to pander to the right but actually shuffle to the left as often as they dare?

There's little evidence that the Republican elite holds any conservative principles. It holds ground when some external force like the NRA or ant-amnesty small donors demand a stand, that is all.

It's brutally obvious that swamping the demographic base from which the Republican Party gets 90% of its votes (through mass immigration and forced assimilation) is fatal for conservatism in the long run both for the Whites and the conservative cause. If the party was serious about being a going concern in the long run as a vehicle to advance conservative values, it would be fighting on this issue as life and death.

Since it's obviously not serious about the long run, it's basically a bunch of guys who want to cash in.

Not much is to be expected of people like that, on taxes, the deficit or any other issue.

Posted by: The Lightworker at December 21, 2012 08:03 AM (q3IvW)

149 Christmas Kitteh+

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5002/5347959051_56635ca7e2.jpg

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:00 AM (53z96)

We don't need no stinkin puppehs!

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 08:04 AM (53z96)

150 J. J. Sefton - thanks for calling me a yutzik. By the way, I'm not a lefty. At work I'm in the minority that votes right, and I take shit from co-workers any time we talk about politics. I defend the right all the time, but with shit like this it's getting hard. I'm never gonna vote left, but we ain't dragging undecideds to our side. I like winning elections. 2010 was nice. 2012 not so much

Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 08:05 AM (f16c6)

151 The posture should have been, "the 'fiscal cliff' is the only way we seem to be able to get a spending cut in DC, so we're fine with it. And as far as taxes go, we can't have Europe-sized government without paying Europe-sized taxes, and the people have just spoken in favor of the former.

Plus eleventy.

Posted by: Let's put our cards on the table at December 21, 2012 08:05 AM (bS6uW)

152
Agree with what some have written: pretending that Plan B was going to go anywhere even if passed is folly. Passing it would have actually strengthened the hands of the Dems, because now they have the GOP on record as supporting tax hikes.

And yes, that's what this is about. Pretending that letting the Bush tax cuts expire isn't a tax hike is very misleading.

We're going into a recession and nothing is going to stop it. The GOP is going to get the blame no matter what, so we might as well get blamed for doing the right thing and keeping our promises. Plan B was about trying to win the media war, and do you really think that's feasible?!
Bottom line, if you want conservative votes, offer up a conservative solution.

Posted by: JohnTant at December 21, 2012 08:05 AM (eytER)

153 Oh come on Vic, did you even watch the video, even a cat lover would have to say ahhhhhh.

Posted by: spypeach at December 21, 2012 08:06 AM (pwTow)

154 So what? How many times have conservatives been sold out by dirty f--king RINO's?
I get the whole "falling on the sword of principle thing." I personally favored something similar to Boehner's Plan B. But let's not kid ourselves: Plan B is $H!+ too. There are no meaningful measures being floated that will cut spending by even 10% in real terms. So f--k it.
Boehner lost his credibility two years ago when he settled for a few hundred million in "cuts" when he promised $100B.
The lapse of the Bush tax rates were engineered by the Democrats. This is ALL their fault.
Let. It. Burn.

Posted by: Sam In VA at December 21, 2012 08:08 AM (rFiOs)

155
Amen @148, I couldn't have said it any better. I'm too tired of seeing the language of the left being used in attacking fellow Republicans. We can disagree on policy but to beat up fellow Republicans (I'm actually a moderate myself) is awful. We should extend the rates for ninety days or allow the Senate to come up with an extension. I think Obama would get blame for not allowing more time and going over the cliff and the American people understand Congress can't come to compromise in a month. The extension could have a trigger on top rates and a trigger in Medicare age to force both sides to the table.

Posted by: Brad at December 21, 2012 08:08 AM (4wewJ)

156 Cute puppy video because it's almost Christmas and this thread is on fire
http://tinyurl.com/cl7ol86
Posted by: spypeach at December 21, 2012 08:01 AM (pwTow)



ahaha, so cute

Posted by: kabuki shuffle at December 21, 2012 08:09 AM (LpQbZ)

157 Not even willing to play the political game is clearly a sign that something else is at play here.

I think it is more an admission that we are a permanent minority in national politics and are free to stand on principles. It also might be the last chance to stick it to the high earners in liberal states.

Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 21, 2012 08:09 AM (iuY0Y)

158 32 Now, we're the bad guys for the coming decession and our philosophy will be blamed for it.
-
If the Republican legislative elite gets punished for sticking to a conservative philosophy, it'll be a classic case of of defendants convicted of the only thing they were not guilty of.

Posted by: The Lightworker at December 21, 2012 08:10 AM (q3IvW)

159 Don't put gimmicks up for a vote, especially if you don't know the outcome. Boehner needs to be replaced as Speaker, he has no credible ideas and cannot control his own faction.

Posted by: Let's put our cards on the table at December 21, 2012 08:10 AM (bS6uW)

160 #153 This position that we always oppose tax hikes and passing Plan B would have undercut it is simply something talk radio has been pushing, and I am not buying it.

Reagan passed tax hikes. Bush 41 passed tax hikes. I am pretty sure Eisenhower did as well.

So all of a sudden THIS tax hike is going to ruin the brand?

If you want to make the case that those millionaires are job creator and sources of investment, fine. Bring out the statistics and do some explaining about it.

But saying that this would be the first time ever that the GOP accepted tax hikes is foolishness. And if you are saying conservatives instead of GOP, then you are carving out a small niche which is not ever going to get the majority if they continue to behave in such a recalcitrant manner.

Posted by: Miss Marple at December 21, 2012 08:10 AM (GoIUi)

161 Definitely OT

Reporting in from Down Under..... hello everyone

The world may have ended but we at Chez Aussie have survived as it's now 22/12/12 here in Sydney



Posted by: aussie at December 21, 2012 08:11 AM (NM75o)

162 have i mentioned my extreme dislike for jerry rivers?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 21, 2012 08:11 AM (GVxQo)

163 Gabe...save the vapors, please. If you actually believe that Obama, Reid, and the rest of the Politburoare interested ingoverning as opposed to holding power, you're an idiot. Empty political maneuvering, and let's be real, that's what Plan B, is the same tired too-clever-by-half bullshit that got us here. Mitch McConnell thought himself an uber-MENSA when the "compromise" on seuqestration passed. All he did was hand Obama breathing room.

Enough. Let it burn.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 21, 2012 08:12 AM (B+qrE)

164 :::131 >> A theoretical glowing write-up in the mainstream press for the GOP's principled stand. Which would then lead to a massive groundswell of support and electoral victories in 2014 and 2016.

Don't forget the permanent GOP majority and resurrection of Reagan.
Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2012 07:54 AM (OZPoa):::

Ah, yes. Full "Huzzah!" Mode.

Painful to watch.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 08:12 AM (JDIKC)

165 It's this idea of a "partial victory" which throws me. One cannot have a partial victory.

I've taken enough negotiations classes and performed enough negotiations myself to know that a win-win is the best possible outcome, particularly if you will meet with the party again. Yet, a win-win requires that each party acquiesce something or offer SOMETHING to sweeten the pot.

Ultimately, this negotiation is with the Dems and just what have they put on the table?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 08:13 AM (piMMO)

166 phoenixgirl, I NEVER turn on the TV on Friday mornings because I know that jerk will be on Fox and Friends saying something incredibly stupid and/or offensive.

Posted by: Miss Marple at December 21, 2012 08:13 AM (GoIUi)

167 Christmas Kitteh+

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5002/5347959051_56635ca7e2.jpg

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 07:00 AM (53z96)

We don't need no stinkin puppehs!
Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 08:04 AM (53z96)



Can't we all just get along?

Posted by: Christmas Kittehs & Christmas Doggies at December 21, 2012 08:14 AM (LpQbZ)

168 118 - thanks. Actually going to be nearby Janesville WI, so we're following I-90 from NY going west. Gonna take awhile.

Posted by: uterus cannon at December 21, 2012 08:14 AM (3ZtZW)

169 Mornin' fellas. Had a lovely evening last night going to pick up my in-laws from the airport (DC). I never made it. Got hit-and-run. I was sitting at a light and noticed the car coming up really fast. I tried to move to avoid getting rear ended, and luckily the driver dried to avoid me too, but he still swiped my left rear. Got the tags, but long story short, the van pulls over in a little mall area, the passenger gets out and the van keeps going. Fuckers. Of course the passenger claims to not speak english and fortunately we didn't get into a fight because he tried to leave too. Anyway, he's got about two weeks to mail me some cash or he's got some warrants going out on him.

Posted by: Mainah at December 21, 2012 08:14 AM (659DL)

170 44 The market for fiscal conservatism isn't 50.1% of the voting population. And it won't be that big again for a long time.
-
Due to mass immigration, the market for conservatism gets smaller every year and the market for liberalism gets bigger every year. That is fine with the Republican political elite.

Posted by: The Lightworker at December 21, 2012 08:15 AM (q3IvW)

171 The world may have ended but we at Chez Aussie have survived as it's now 22/12/12 here in Sydney

....

C'mon! You know nothing actually counts until it happens in EST!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 08:15 AM (piMMO)

172 Step 1. Get over the idea that two or three people should develop a plan and then force everyone else to vote for it.

Posted by: f2000 at December 21, 2012 08:16 AM (abiX9)

173 I'm trying my best to ignore politics for a while, but I thought I read that, last count, Obama won the popular vote by 50.8%. Is that right? So why all this crap about being in the permanent minority and revamping the heart and soul of the party, yadda yadda yadda?

We're closer than we've ever been to a 50/50 nation and 48.2% of us are madder than hell at the moment.

Posted by: S. Weasel at December 21, 2012 08:16 AM (CrEGa)

174 The world may have ended but we at Chez Aussie have survived as it's now 22/12/12 here in Sydney



Posted by: aussie at December 21, 2012 08:11 AM (NM75o)



Carry on! As, we circle the drain in a most displeasing way...

Posted by: Backwards at December 21, 2012 08:17 AM (LpQbZ)

175 @161

I will not support raising taxes because our enemies have decided to Alinsky a class of people - "THE RICH"

Raising these taxes accomplishes NOTHING!

I will give you this formula:

1.3T - 0.16T + 0.110T = 1.25T

1.25T represents the federal deficit after the Republicans become the party of raising taxes.


WE WOULD HAVE SHAVED A FUCKING TITANIC, GARGANTUAN, HUMONGOUS $500 MILLION OFF OF THE DEFICIT!


This you consider a victory for conservatism?

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 08:17 AM (RrD4h)

176 162 aussie
The world may have ended but we at Chez Aussie have survived as it's now 22/12/12 here in Sydney


It's still the 21st here, so I'm still holding out hope for SMOD.

Posted by: rickl at December 21, 2012 08:17 AM (sdi6R)

177
161, what's the point of having a majority when you have to govern like that which you run against?

It isn't just the tax hike...it's voting for a tax hike *without any commensurate decrease in spending*. HW Bush did that and look what happened. And I never said this would have been the first time the GOP would have accepted tax hikes.

Sorry, not buying the doom and gloom or that now all bad things that will happen are conservative's fault. Boehner threw down his gauntlet without having the caucus locked up as a way to bully the conservatives, and it bit him in the butt. Good.

Posted by: JohnTant at December 21, 2012 08:18 AM (eytER)

178 157 Cute puppy video because it's almost Christmas and this thread is on fire
http://tinyurl.com/cl7ol86
Posted by: spypeach at December 21, 2012 08:01 AM (pwTow)


.....


Too cute!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 08:18 AM (piMMO)

179 Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 08:17 AM (RrD4h)



If I recall correctly all they did was "shave" $30M off of the proposed Obama spending increase. IOW they INCREASED spending. There was no cut at all.

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 08:20 AM (53z96)

180 WE WOULD HAVE SHAVED A FUCKING TITANIC, GARGANTUAN, HUMONGOUS $500 MILLION OFF OF THE DEFICIT!


Okay, we get that, and a couple of bake sales, ummm maybe the military goes without bullets a couple of months, HEY a golf outing, those always work..And we're on the road to recovery!

Posted by: Bruce at December 21, 2012 08:20 AM (j+dTo)

181 It's now the "principled conservative" position to support raising taxes on high income earners while enshrining tax cuts for non-high income earners?In short, you're arguing that Obama is the conservative in this fight?
Blow me Gab.

Posted by: egd at December 21, 2012 08:21 AM (XVGEg)

182 151 Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 08:05 AM (f16c6)

Your umbrage is duly noted but your talking points reveal you. "Tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires at the expense of the middle class?"

I mean, really.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 08:21 AM (XkWWK)

183 Posted by: Mainah at December 21, 2012 08:14 AM (659DL)

Happy Holidays!!!

Reagan or BWI?

Posted by: RWC at December 21, 2012 08:22 AM (fWAjv)

184


Gumbo haters!

Why the hate, man.


Posted by: ragin' cajunette at December 21, 2012 08:22 AM (LpQbZ)

185 @180

And keep in mind the 0.16T is assuming the revenues generated from the tax increases is 100% and the Laffer curve does not obtain.


That 0.16T would look more like 0.05T or worse.

But what do I know I'm only an engineer and treasurer.

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 08:24 AM (RrD4h)

186 Time for me to get moving. Today is my day at the church food pantry, where I see lots of people who cannot make it on their income due to food prices being so high; people who have been laid off and cannot find work; old people whose savings aren't enough.

Prosperity is just around the corner, I'm sure.

Posted by: Miss Marple at December 21, 2012 08:24 AM (GoIUi)

187 You can bet your sweet ass that whatever the Dems come up with, the entire party will fall in line behind it. Unfortunately, it is deals such as this which have made us leery of trusting our own leadership.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 08:25 AM (piMMO)

188 Any "Convervative" that votes to perpetuate the patently immoral progressive income tax is no Conservative. Gen. Woundwort is right. All this talk of "fairness" by taxing one person at a higher rate than another is bullshit. Nothing fair about it.

Obama likes sequestration. He lives to gut the military. Over the cliff we go.

Posted by: Al at December 21, 2012 08:25 AM (V70Uh)

189 I’m still here. The world is still here. Mayans = EPIC FAIL

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:26 AM (yAor6)

190 Oh, and thanks for at least responding, pep and Andy. Sometimes I suspect that my comments don't even display if they don't contain a dick joke.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 08:26 AM (JDIKC)

191 oh and Gabe's simpleton view shows just why he is the least liked co-blogger on here. I'm for Plan B but I fully understand the "let it burn" approach. Cliff or not, we're fucked.

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:27 AM (yAor6)

192 Heh, dick jokes. Good one EOJ.

Posted by: Let's put our cards on the table at December 21, 2012 08:27 AM (bS6uW)

193 I like the idea of passing a tax cut for the bottom incomes while leaving the top alone. Pass it, let the Donks tell the "working folks" they will not do that.

Posted by: Case at December 21, 2012 08:27 AM (vVmp0)

194 erik

did they tear your occupy camp down?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 21, 2012 08:28 AM (GVxQo)

195 J. J. Sefton - I bet that meme I'm quoting is all we will hear now for years from the Dems and the media. How do we get people to join our movement? The free shit army probably doesn't pay much taxes anyways, have tons of student loans and want their bailouts, have Obamacare (which will suck), and extended unemployment benefits. We are killing innovation and entrepreneurial behavior.

Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 08:28 AM (f16c6)

196 Couple of things
1) As has been pointed-out earlier, WTF was Boehner doing talking a blue-streak about a bill before he knew he had the votes to pass it? Amateur hour.
2) I sort-of understand the "principled" vote against this tax increase - but it's politically moronic and demonstrates that, painful though it is for me to say, the Tea Party isn't ready for prime time

Look, we don't like it, and we don't have to like it, but the American Sheeple voted to sustain a Scandi-style social democracy welfare state. And why shouldn't they? It's what we've had for the last 20-years plus-or-minus and now they're only paying about 42-cents on the dollar in taxes to support it. Seems to me that the adults in the room should be the ones to tell them "no more free lunches, kids - you want socialism, you're gonna pay for it".

Love Obamacare? How's about a 15% VAT to pay for it, just like in the Eurozone.

Wanna keep the Obamaphone train going? Then it's a 40% income tax rate on all income above something like $50K and 25% for ALL INCOME, PERIOD.

Oh, and freeze the debt limit - no more paying for hamburgers on Tuesday that we're going to eat today.

Until (low-information voter type) people see what $3.8T in taxes will look like they have absolutely no reason to believe that our vision of "small government America" is any better.

We've lived a lie for pretty much my entire life - that we deserve to borrow against our children and their children's children to support our current welfare state. That can't continue.

Otherwise, LIB.

Posted by: DocJ at December 21, 2012 08:28 AM (A5uiv)

197
But Plan B is a purely political move that doesn't do shit about the "fiscal cliff" or our fucked up federal finances, so the ZOMFG!!11! We're All Gonna Die!! reaction to the fact that this particular bill didn't pass the house is a bit much.

It was a start. And we do have to start somewhere. Tax rates are going to go up unless Congress acts. These House defectors have announced their intention torefuse to actunless the President totally caves on tax rates. Since that ain't going to happen, they've made the tax portion of the fiscal cliff much more probable.

It wasn't ever going to become law anyway, and the resulting compromise, if any, was always going to be left of here as it set a cap on our negotiating position.

As you and Drew have reminded me so often these past few weeks, where you start in a negotiation influences where you end up. Had the House passed Plan B, it would be the starting point to negotiating with the Senate. But now that these defectors have made it so thatif the House is to pass anything, it will have to have Dem votes, the House starting point for negotiating with the Senate is going to be further Left.

That is, I think the most frustrating part. Yesterday's fiasco has pushed the final outcome (whether that's the cliff or a compromise bill) further the Left. And you think that's okay? That it was "always" going to be that way?

I don't think so. I think Plan B drew a firm line. The GOP is immensely weakened by not having passed it.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 08:28 AM (B2LxR)

198 Gabe is right- surrender on taxes today, and you'll get something, someday in return. In the meantime, yes, you'll lose lots more elections but I think it's still a good idea.

Posted by: Dick Darman at December 21, 2012 08:29 AM (+GpbP)

199 And keep in mind the 0.16T is assuming the revenues generated from the tax increases is 100% and the Laffer curve does not obtain.
And that the new regs already beginning to spew from this administration don't make the rubble bounce in what's left of the economy.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 21, 2012 08:29 AM (B+qrE)

200 "I will never trust the Mayans on anything ever again."

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at December 21, 2012 08:29 AM (e8kgV)

201

There exists no fiscal cliff, you ninny.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 21, 2012 08:29 AM (ODeHV)

202 Sometimes I try to suss out complex/stoopit arguments like this by comparing it all to bad jokes. Because that's what Government is. This time:

"WTF? We gotta change this light bulb!"
GOP: We don't have the votes. We're not in power anyway, so you change the bulb.
Dems: We need to get the bulbs from the Rich
The Rich: We'll just leave and take our bulbs!
GOP: We got a great idea. We'll get a 40 watt bulb and replace the dead 100 watt. Deal?
Dems: No. Its gotta be 150 watt or no deal.
GOP: Never mind dumb idea anyway.
Dems: Well, looks like the Middle Class has to change the bulb now, because the GOP suxxorz.
Middle Class: WTF do I always have to change the bulb? Look, make the FSA change it, I'm tired of this.
FSA: WTF dark?
Dems: FSA can't change the bulb. They can't find their ass with their hands, and anyway they don't have a bulb.
FSA: We better get a bulb or we gonna burn this shiznit down baby!
Conservatives: That solves the lighting problem.
GOP: Will you STFU?

Posted by: uterus cannon at December 21, 2012 08:29 AM (3ZtZW)

203
Any "Convervative" that votes to perpetuate the patently immoral progressive income tax is no Conservative.

This is just ignorance. The tax rates are going up automatically. They weren't being asked to vote for it, it's happening automatically. They were being asked to avoid it for 98% of taxpayers. They decided that if they couldn't save everyone, they'd save no one. Doesn't sound very conservative to me.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 08:29 AM (B2LxR)

204

ZOMG! we must Do Something with the Democrats to avert the imaginary fiscal cliff!!

you goddam ninny

Posted by: soothsayer at December 21, 2012 08:30 AM (eHNxr)

205 Happy Holidays!!!

Reagan or BWI?
Posted by: RWC at December 21, 2012 08:22 AM (fWAjv)

I know, right!? I was headed to Reagan. Accident happened in Alexandria.

Posted by: Mainah at December 21, 2012 08:30 AM (659DL)

206 Well, in an effort to see the bright side of anything - at least we're actually going to be cutting some 'spending'.

Sigh.

Posted by: Rob McNeece at December 21, 2012 08:31 AM (rSJYS)

207 why did anyone trust the mayans?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 21, 2012 08:31 AM (GVxQo)

208
I wish more and more people who refer to the tax hikes on the otherside of the cliffas the CLINTON TAX HIKES..
That is what they are...

Posted by: Fresh at December 21, 2012 08:31 AM (O7ksG)

209 :::193 Heh, dick jokes. Good one EOJ.:::



Sigh...

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 08:31 AM (JDIKC)

210 "why did anyone trust the mayans?"

Newton and 2060 will be the next rage in the doomsday cult

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:31 AM (yAor6)

211 @201. "I will never trust the Mayans on anything ever again."

The day ain't over yet.

Posted by: Case at December 21, 2012 08:32 AM (vVmp0)

212 Yes, I do think we can all agree hopefully on that point ... "Boner" never should've brought this up or scheduled a vote on something he didn't have the votes for. It should've been whipped days ago. I understand the optics will look bad but hopefully 18 Reps will block a "Boner" from being Speaker again. And we also have to understand the nature of Speaker must change too in this day and age - they have to be media saavy. Our next Speaker has to go on MSNBC and defend and educate low information voters. Our so called leaders, the media can't ignore talking to or interviewing them have to be our messengers not idiot consultant Republicans on television.

Posted by: Brad at December 21, 2012 08:32 AM (4wewJ)

213 btw on the 12/21 thing, am I the only one who loves the fact History won't be able to show any 2012 shows again?

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:32 AM (yAor6)

214 172 Niedermeyers Dead Horse

That's the trouble with living in Tomorrowland I suppose

So it's going to wreck our Saturday then

Was planning on some shopping and we have a party to go to in the evening...

Posted by: aussie at December 21, 2012 08:33 AM (NM75o)

215 Plan B or no plan B. Tax raised or taxes lowered. Doesn't matter. Between 84,000,000,000,000 and 238,000,000,000,000 in unfunded liabilities (depending on who you ask) guarantees anything tried now is smoke and mirrors. Fuck it, fuck it all.

Posted by: RWC at December 21, 2012 08:33 AM (fWAjv)

216

believing in the Fiscal Cliff is just as dumb as believing in this Mayan calendar crap

Posted by: soothsayer at December 21, 2012 08:34 AM (0w+w3)

217 "Doesn't sound very conservative to me."

You're right. Refusing to negotiate with terrorists isn't conservative, while giving in to terrorists is conservative as fuck.

If Orange Man had been in charge during the early days of the Republic, we'd still be paying tribute to the Barbary pirates.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 08:34 AM (w9BpZ)

218 Plan B or no plan B. Tax raised or taxes lowered. Doesn't matter.
Between 84,000,000,000,000 and 238,000,000,000,000 in unfunded
liabilities (depending on who you ask) guarantees anything tried now is
smoke and mirrors. Fuck it, fuck it all.


How about everyone put a buck in for the lottery?

Posted by: Bruce at December 21, 2012 08:34 AM (j+dTo)

219 "Squish goes the RINO..."

Plan B was stuipd.

Boner *IS* stupid.

we're fucked, no matter what those idiots in DC do.

Let
It
Burn

Posted by: redc1c4 at December 21, 2012 08:35 AM (8MasJ)

220 @198

You are just a simple minded fool aren't you?


Plan B draws a line in the sand for raising taxes for no good reason other than our enemies want what they want.

It' destroys the main plank of conservatism - Low levels of taxation are necessary and proper for a well functioning economy.

In short your an asshole!

You are a RINO of the Frum, Brooks variety, you want to "help" conservatives find their way by becoming Democrats.

Screw you and screw any "conservative" who was in favor of raising taxes.

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 08:35 AM (RrD4h)

221 If you'll follow Gabe's advice I guarantee you'll see another twenty years of Democrat domination of national politics.

Posted by: President For Life Obama at December 21, 2012 08:35 AM (+GpbP)

222 J. J. Sefton and phoenixgirl, have a great Christmas. I'm off to work now. Remember, we're on the same side. Or at least we vote for the same party. Cheers.

Posted by: ErikL at December 21, 2012 08:35 AM (f16c6)

223 You can bet your sweet ass that whatever the Dems come up with, the entire party will fall in line behind it. Unfortunately, it is deals such as this which have made us leery of trusting our own leadership.
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 08:25 AM (piMMO)


Yep, Libs have actual goals (e.g. divide and destroy the GOP) and look at the large picture/playing field.

The GOP, idiots.

Posted by: ragin' cajunette at December 21, 2012 08:36 AM (LpQbZ)

224 175 Backwards

So our water circles around the drain the other way or so I've heard

Posted by: aussie at December 21, 2012 08:36 AM (NM75o)

225 @198 -

Gabe I'm not a Malorhater, but your analysis seems to assume that "hurtling off the fiscal cliff" as you say in the main post is automatically a bad thing.

First, it's a metaphor. We aren't hurtling off anything. On January 3rd things will be exactly as they were on January 2nd.

When people get their first paychecks of the year they will see what they voted for, higher taxes. Let them, it will be a teachable moment as Obama is fond of saying.

Some say we will go back into a recession. We are probably already in a recession, or so nearly so that the difference would be limited.

Some say military spending would be gutted. How would they know? The GAO says that military accounting is so fucked up it can't be audited. That's usually a sign of bloated mismanagement, and $55B less per year should bring some clarity to that process.

End of the payroll tax holiday? Fine, it's under-funding Social Security anyway.

What part of the cliff are you assuming is so drastic that it has to be avoided?

Posted by: Let's put our cards on the table at December 21, 2012 08:36 AM (bS6uW)

226

hey, ma, look at me, I'm avertin' the cliff!

Posted by: soothsayer at December 21, 2012 08:36 AM (3oX3m)

227

brb, avertin

Posted by: soothsayer at December 21, 2012 08:37 AM (oxIUw)

228 Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 06:58 AM (53z96)

Remember the good old days when one's sex life was private?

Unbelievable.

And that chick is definitely a two-condom-at-the-same-time romp.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 21, 2012 08:38 AM (GsoHv)

229 I know, right!? I was headed to Reagan. Accident happened in Alexandria.
Posted by: Mainah at December 21, 2012 08:30 AM (659DL)

Thankfully you weren't hurt. I was out in that crap last night as well. Really shitty weather to be on the road. Hope you get your money but probably an illegal so good luck.

Posted by: RWC at December 21, 2012 08:38 AM (fWAjv)

230 Burnitdown!!

Posted by: traye at December 21, 2012 08:39 AM (prvDD)

231 Some say military spending would be gutted. How would they know? The GAO says that military accounting is so fucked up it can't be audited. That's usually a sign of bloated mismanagement, and $55B less per year should bring some clarity to that process.


Posted by: Let's put our cards on the table at December 21, 2012 08:36 AM (bS6uW)

Crap. Defense has already taken a huge hit under obama. Defense was and is taking 50% of the cuts while only 13% of the budget. And every Agency is bloated, many much worse than Defense and return very little if anything to this Country.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 21, 2012 08:39 AM (79ueO)

232 Of course the world didn't come to an end. The Cubs didn't win the World Series did they? Or is that hell freezing over when they win?

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 21, 2012 08:39 AM (1Jaio)

233 Whatever burns it down, I'm for.

Posted by: Whatev at December 21, 2012 08:39 AM (2t6Gz)

234
Tax raised or taxes lowered. Doesn't matter.

It matters to me. I don't know about you, but I pay taxes. I prefer them lowered. Or at the very least not raised. At one time that was a conservative principle.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 08:40 AM (B2LxR)

235 65 It's going to be fun losing the house in '14. You think it's bad now, the wait until the left has all three branches sewn up.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at December 21, 2012 07:29 AM (l3vZN)

Yeah, but everyone knows that having a minority of "true conservatives" (TM) is way better than having a majority of Republicans. These are the same people who seem to think they can dictate everything they want without controlling the White House or Senate.

1. Sabotage Boehner.
2. ?????
3. WINNING!!!!

These are the geniuses who are going to save the country. Yaaaay.

Posted by: Ryan West at December 21, 2012 08:40 AM (Ojkb+)

236 If Orange Man had been in charge during the early days of the Republic, we'd still be paying tribute to the Barbary pirates.
Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 08:34 AM (w9BpZ)

This. Having never been convinced of the LIB response, I am each day moving further away from it. Inactivity, giving up the ghost is truly un-American and truly unworthy of the sacrifices made by those who went before us ( I am still moved by the photo of Dole standing up to salute Inouye in his casket) I haven't figured out HOW to fight the libturds, but I cannot give up and watch them destroy my country. I do see that they are more vocal and more organized than we and I do know that we must take control of the narrative if we are to ever change the course of our government. Nations rise and fall by winning hearts and minds.

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at December 21, 2012 08:41 AM (53riN)

237 How about everyone put a buck in for the lottery?
Posted by: Bruce at December 21, 2012 08:34 AM (j+dTo)

I'm game. As long as it is a Shirley Jackson style lottery and there are MULTIPLE winners.

Posted by: RWC at December 21, 2012 08:41 AM (fWAjv)

238 No, really, the whole let it burn thing wasn't posturing. Sorry RINO's, I really do want it to burn.

Posted by: Whatev at December 21, 2012 08:41 AM (2t6Gz)

239 177 rickl

No way, not now - we're the canary in the coal mine and we're still here (I think)

We did have a few glasses of wine to celebrate the end of a shitty week so we might have missed the end of the world

Posted by: aussie at December 21, 2012 08:41 AM (NM75o)

240 oh and Gabe's simpleton view shows just why he is the least liked co-blogger on here.
Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:27 AM (yAor6)



Oh, come on.

Speak for yourself.

Sometimes this blog is so Alinskyite. Pick target. Freeze target. Destroy target.

I welcome Gabe's thoughts.

I often wonder if people want this blog to grow, or stay a small nuclear of like-minded folks. And, by small, I mean tiny and narrow.

Posted by: meh at December 21, 2012 08:41 AM (LpQbZ)

241 so gabe you are for lower taxes for you but not for me? that's the point you'd sell out...when it affects you.....?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 21, 2012 08:43 AM (GVxQo)

242 "It's going to be fun losing the house in '14. You think it's bad now, the wait until the left has all three branches sewn up."

elections are too far out to care about public opinion at this point. O was in big trouble w/ the electorate 1 year before they re-elected
him. HW was in good terms with the electorate 1 year before they voted
him out. public opinion is useless right now.

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:43 AM (yAor6)

243 And that chick is definitely a two-condom-at-the-same-time romp.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 21, 2012 08:38 AM (GsoHv)

Damn you made me page all the way back to that.
Why not include the links?
http://is.gd/vBpLDW

http://is.gd/d1rvmW

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 08:43 AM (53z96)

244 They decided that if they couldn't save everyone, they'd save no one. Doesn't sound very conservative to me.

Hey, Gabe--let's talk about the backstory--OK? McConnell sold this as a super-genius ploy to box-in the President. Instead, here we are debating to WHAT DEGREE we allow an Obama victory.

Doesn't sound very conservative to me. So save it--you are being very, very selective with facts.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 21, 2012 08:44 AM (B+qrE)

245
Sequestration provides something that poor baby big government 'conservative' Boehner doesn't want to provide, real cuts.
Bring it on.

Posted by: MlR at December 21, 2012 08:44 AM (vR2l5)

246
191
Oh, and thanks for at least responding, pep and Andy. Sometimes I
suspect that my comments don't even display if they don't contain a dick
joke.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2012 08:26 AM (JDIKC)


Hey! I responded.
*grumbles in corner*

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 21, 2012 08:44 AM (da5Wo)

247 Thankfully you weren't hurt. I was out in that crap last night as well. Really shitty weather to be on the road. Hope you get your money but probably an illegal so good luck.
Posted by: RWC at December 21, 2012 08:38 AM (fWAjv)

Yeah, it could have been much worse. I'm glad it was just me and I didn't have my wife and kid with me. Yeah, I'm not optimistic he'll follow through, but if he doesn't he can take it up with the Alexandria cop who said he'd put out the warrant on him if he doesn't cooperate.

Posted by: Mainah at December 21, 2012 08:44 AM (659DL)

248 "Speak for yourself."

oh fuck off. it's a well known fact Gabe is the least liked co-blogger on here.I am not a tea party guy or a conservative. i'm a libertarian Republican and that outs me at odds with the majority opinion here some times. so don't preach to me about narrow minded

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:45 AM (yAor6)

249 Gabe,

I am not ignorant of what you say.

As far as I am concerned, let the payroll tax go back up. It's the flatest tax around. Payouts, OTOH, are not.

Posted by: Al at December 21, 2012 08:45 AM (V70Uh)

250 we either stand together or not....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 21, 2012 08:45 AM (GVxQo)

251 Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 08:43 AM (53z96)

She doesn't deserve a second look!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 21, 2012 08:45 AM (GsoHv)

252 "At one time that was a conservative principle."

"Fuck you, 'rich' guy. I've got mine!" is a conservative principle?

Who knew?

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 08:46 AM (w9BpZ)

253 @245

Forget it, your dealing with the "lose now to win later, keep your powder dry, this is not the hill to die on" crowd and they are on a roll.



Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 08:46 AM (RrD4h)

254 When you accept the premise, the narrative, that the "rich" aren't already paying more than their "fair" share, you have already lost.

The top 20% already pay for 80%.

Posted by: Al at December 21, 2012 08:46 AM (V70Uh)

255 >> I don't think so. I think Plan B drew a firm line.

The firm line it drew was a cap. We'd have probably ultimately settled (and may still) for putting in a new top rate at $500K instead of $1M, etc., etc. This was unavoidable because of our last "victory" on the stupid BCA deal, the fact that we coasted along for 2 years without addressing it and Boehner's awful negotiating skills both within the caucus and without.

>> The GOP is immensely weakened by not having passed it.

Agreed. But not because of the merits of the actual proposal. The weakness comes from the public projection of disarray in the caucus and, as you pointed out, the need to hunt for Democrat votes in the House to pass whatever compromise ultimately comes along.

Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2012 08:47 AM (OZPoa)

256 But I know who Trey Gowdy is!

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 08:47 AM (53z96)

257

>>> we either stand together or not...

Word.

Or else we're no different than the Occupy 99% mob.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 21, 2012 08:48 AM (6OiNi)

258 Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:45 AM (yAor6)

meh has a point. And I am unsure that Gabe is the least-liked coblogger. DrewM would get a lot of votes.

Echo chambers get very boring after a while.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 21, 2012 08:48 AM (GsoHv)

259 Plan C time.

Make Obama push his own agenda rather than criticizing our position.

There is also Plan D.

Pass a plan that conservatives can get behind. Expose your flank to Obama. Media eats your children. #winning.



Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 21, 2012 08:48 AM (iuY0Y)

260 Did I mention....Burn it down?

if not

Burnitdown

Posted by: traye at December 21, 2012 08:48 AM (prvDD)

261 Boner will make a "deal"!

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 08:49 AM (53z96)

262 If we do not choose a hill to die on, the left will choose a ditch for us to die in.


Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 21, 2012 07:32 AM (XkWWK)----The meaningful hills are already long gone. The same 'can't see the forest for the trees' crew that always boosts and cheerleads forthese gimmicks gave them up a long, long time ago.

Posted by: MlR at December 21, 2012 08:49 AM (vR2l5)

263

Plan B was stupid, too.

Do not ever compromise with someone who is 100% wrong. A compromise would only make things less worse.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 21, 2012 08:49 AM (3dufx)

264 "And I am unsure that Gabe is the least-liked coblogger. DrewM would get a lot of votes."

I like Drew, most of the times. Maybe we should put up a poll?

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:50 AM (yAor6)

265 A question

What does sequestration mean in the context of this discussion

I've only heard it used when a jury is sequestered

Thanks!

Posted by: aussie at December 21, 2012 08:50 AM (NM75o)

266 Lets see..

Over the last decade or so, Gabrielle and he merry band of spineless RINO's foisted upon us Dole, Bush, Bush, McCain and Romney, not to mention the Gang of 14, TARP1, Medicare expansion, No Child Left Behind, etc. So, given that spotless record of achievement, conservatives were simply expected to drop our drawers and take it up the shoot yet again? No thanks.

Posted by: WVinMN at December 21, 2012 08:50 AM (mab4s)

267 174 I'm trying my best to ignore politics for a while, but I thought I read that, last count, Obama won the popular vote by 50.8%. Is that right? So why all this crap about being in the permanent minority and revamping the heart and soul of the party, yadda yadda yadda?
-
Because, due to legal mass immigration as well as illegal immigration and amnesty, the Democrats are importing a permanent majority year by year, and their non-White imported base (with non-Whites voting 80% Democratic) is a lot younger than the Republican base, which is aging and dying off.

There is no way to fight these numbers that doesn't begin with closing the mass immigration floodgates, and the Republican political elite shows no inclination to do that. It's this total lack of inclination to head off the disaster that's the greatest cause for alarm.

The law is now like a demographic Kevorkian machine. It is inexorably getting rid of the Whites, as a share of the population, and absolutely. (The White population that the Republican Party gets 90% of its votes from is being swamped and also in decline - and further squeezed by affirmative action, disparate impact, quotas, set-asides and so on.) The foreseeable result of continuous mass immigration (90% non-White) and forced assimilation (for e Whites - not for the non-Whites who are free to continue to play identity politics) is that the Whites will cease to exist, first as a viable political base and eventually altogether.

There is no alternative conservative political base. Hispanics are Democratic, Asians even more so. Blacks are not going to become the mass conservative base. And so on.

As Ann Coulter has explained repeatedly, Democrats do not have to win by changing the minds of conservatives if they can win by replacing the White population with their non-White coalition clients, and that is what they are doing.

Posted by: The Lightworker at December 21, 2012 08:50 AM (q3IvW)

268 Time to add to the flame. The confederates lost the civil war.

Posted by: lincolnite at December 21, 2012 08:51 AM (uFY4s)

269 @265

No, Drew is an asshole as well.

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 08:51 AM (RrD4h)

270 Taxes are going to go up. Get over it. It's a done deal. There isn't a single damn thing the GOP can do to stop it. If somebody really wants to commit suicide, they'll do it, and that is what the Left wants.

Drop your delusions and you'll see the GOP has only these options:

1) Complete surrender, which allows them to be included in the blame.

2) Futile resistance in which whatever miniscule concessions they get out of the Left are later held up as the reasons they are to blame for everything that is soon to go wrong.

3) Stand aside and make the Left own it. Let it burn.

The American electorate needs a serious slap in the face and possibly a culling. How quickly they catch on when everything starts to fall apart is the difference between a lot of pain and a lot of actual death. I'm not optimistic on that front. I expect a lot of inner city populaces to self-immolate before reality sets in and they realize government is not a solution to their problems.

The sooner it happens the easier it will be to have a controlled burn rather than an out of control conflagration. But nothing is going to get fixed until a substantial majority is made to realize the consequences of their choices and how simple math applies to reality.

Posted by: epobirs at December 21, 2012 08:51 AM (kcfmt)

271 Has anyone mentioned that Plan B was originally a Pelosi plan?




Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 08:51 AM (53z96)

272 As you and Drew have reminded me so often these past
few weeks, where you start in a negotiation influences where you end
up. Had the House passed Plan B, it would be the starting point to
negotiating with the Senate. But now that these defectors have made it
so thatif the House is to pass anything, it will have to have Dem votes,
the House starting point for negotiating with the Senate is going to be
further Left.

That is, I think the most frustrating part.
Yesterday's fiasco has pushed the final outcome (whether that's the
cliff or a compromise bill) further the Left. And you think that's okay?
That it was "always" going to be that way?

I don't think so. I think Plan B drew a firm line. The GOP is immensely weakened by not having passed it.



Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 08:28 AM (B2LxR)


Seriously? Really? This is your argument? Not passing Pelosi's plan? I really wonder about people sometimes.

*sigh*

Here's a thought, if even this plan wasn't going to be passed in the Senate, and it looks like no plan would've passed, why not pass something, you know, Conservative? This thing couldn't even get the votes to pass the House. How bout we quit sliding towards the fucking middle every motherfucking time and actually move to the right? Or would that be impolitic?

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 21, 2012 08:52 AM (da5Wo)

273 "The weakness comes from the public projection of disarray in the caucus"

Maybe, just maybe, Bonehead shouldn't have let it come up for a vote at all when he knew he wasn't going to win?

Yet another of the many reasons he needs to go.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 08:52 AM (w9BpZ)

274 This whole situation highlights the ineffectiveness of Boehner. Whether you agree with Plan B or not, he SHOULD HAVE KNOWN how his own party would respond, and seemingly did not.

If he was blindsided by the reaction, then he was flying solo.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 08:52 AM (piMMO)

275 268 Canada proves you wrong

Posted by: lincolnite at December 21, 2012 08:52 AM (uFY4s)

276 Maybe a tax plan named after an abortion pill was a bad idea?

Posted by: Let's put our cards on the table at December 21, 2012 08:53 AM (bS6uW)

277 ...why not pass something, you know, Conservative? ...
Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 21, 2012 08:52 AM


If you haven't noticed, he's not a conservative.

Posted by: Dept of Accuracy at December 21, 2012 08:53 AM (+I8Mq)

278

The Senate wouldn't have voted for this thing - but it would have changed the game, I think, because the House would have put the Senate in a place where they'd have to vote against a tax increase on those making over $1 million, but would have avoided the'fiscal cliff'.

I'm a small government, freedom liberty sorta gal. But we have to begin to deal with realities. And one reality is that a good portion of our citizens are idoits. Sometimes you have to play games with idiots.

Our REAL job is to educate the people to understand why big government, with all the power and money, will ultimately lead to our distuction - not to safety, happiness and comfort. We are out of money. And the President and his supporters areactivelywhipping up hatred and resentment toward to most productive among us. This won't end well. The people need to have this explained to them.





Posted by: Lily at December 21, 2012 08:54 AM (igSv+)

279 oh NT

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:54 AM (yAor6)

280 269 Time to add to the flame. The confederates lost the civil war.


....

Might that be the War of Northern Aggression to which you refer?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 08:54 AM (piMMO)

281 Vic deserves more credit for this Blog than either of them

Posted by: lincolnite at December 21, 2012 08:54 AM (uFY4s)

282 " he SHOULD HAVE KNOWN how his own party would respond, and seemingly did not. "

It's been in the friggin' media for days that he didn't have the votes. Clueless, stupid, or both? You be the judge.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 08:55 AM (w9BpZ)

283 i love both drew and gabe.....sometimes they are wrong and that's when we need to stomp on them

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 21, 2012 08:55 AM (GVxQo)

284 235 Tax raised or taxes lowered. Doesn't matter. It matters to me. I don't know about you, but I pay taxes. I prefer them lowered. Or at the very least not raised. At one time that was a conservative principle.
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 08:40 AM (B2LxR)

it still is, however your advocating "keep my taxes low but raise taxes on people making more than me" which is a lib principle.

Posted by: chas at December 21, 2012 08:55 AM (TKF1Y)

285 "Vic deserves more credit for this Blog than either of them"

that's mostly true, and I say this as head guy (and maybe only guy) of the "I'm not a Vic fan" fan club.

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:56 AM (yAor6)

286 281 no the civil war, as soveirgnity is partly defined by recognition by other countries, and as such, the confederacy was not truelly sovereign.

Posted by: lincolnite at December 21, 2012 08:56 AM (uFY4s)

287

We have a leaky roof.

You want to fix the roof. I want to build a a 2-car garage.

So we'll compromise and build a 1-car garage!

Or we can do nothing and it will be your fault the roof still leaks!

Posted by: soothsayer at December 21, 2012 08:56 AM (3dufx)

288 268 Canada proves you wrong

No, I don't see that. Rather, Canada proves him RIGHT.

And he (she?) is very, very right.

Canada is COLD. Sorry, but that makes a difference.

I'm only italian and I couldn't live up there. Heh.

Seriously, it's a bit more difficult overall to live in certain climes. Canada being a giant national example of that. No matter how much gov't cheese you're getting, you still need a modicum of personal responsibility to live in CA. you can't just be a mirror-fogger up there.

That helps them demographically.

Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at December 21, 2012 08:56 AM (J6kXj)

289
"Fuck you, 'rich' guy. I've got mine!" is a conservative principle?

Who knew?


Talk about selective attention to the facts. The rich guy's taxes are going up automatically. They weren't being asked to vote for that. It's happening automatically. Everyone elses rates are going up automatically too. I would help as many people as I could. You would say that since we can't save everyone, we should do nothing. And call it principled!

By weakening the GOP's negotiating position, these folks have made any ultimate resolution less conservative.

Also, to the folks who are cheering on the fiscal cliff, you make me sick. The tax hikes and the defense cuts in the cliff are going to have long-term disastrous effect on many, many people. There are much better alternatives and we should be working as hard as we can to get there, not cheerfully welcoming a new recession.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 08:56 AM (B2LxR)

290

oops. It would have helped my case if I spelled idiots correctlywhen calling other people idiots.

Spelling was never my strength.


Posted by: Lily at December 21, 2012 08:56 AM (igSv+)

291 Soothie, that is pure poetry! So succinct~

Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at December 21, 2012 08:56 AM (J6kXj)

292
272
Has anyone mentioned that Plan B was originally a Pelosi plan?




Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 08:51 AM (53z96)



97
So Boehner displays leadership and Pelosi's plan is the most conservative we can get?


Huh.


Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 21, 2012 07:42 AM (da5Wo)

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 21, 2012 08:56 AM (da5Wo)

293 "Also, to the folks who are cheering on the fiscal cliff, you make me sick."

oh noes! we made Gabe sick! now we've gone and done it!

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:57 AM (yAor6)

294 Gabe,

For the Plan B scenario to work, the MSM (yes, them) would have to report clearly and honestly about Obama's refusal to negotiate.

Will that happen?

No.

Even if Boehner got his Plan B vote passed- the MSM would simply ignore it and/or trot out a ton of Dem hacks/pols to call it an unserious Republican trick and then ignore it.

We've seen exactly that same situation played out over the course of Obama's presidency.

There's no problem with principle if you're willing to fight for it. There's no problem with a deal if both sides are honestly willing to deal.

That not the situation here.

Obama and the Dims have drawn a line in the sand.

Boehner is squirming around trying to find a deal and it makes Reps look like unprincipled assholes.

He's fully the equal of Obama and Reid in Budgetary terms.

Time to pull a "Tip O'Neill" and tell the President that his budget is dead on arrival and exactly what he expects to see in a budget.

Gutting financially Obamacare should be number one on that list.

Pass that and go home.



Posted by: naturalfake at December 21, 2012 08:57 AM (G9qZk)

295 266 A question

What does sequestration mean in the context of this discussion

I've only heard it used when a jury is sequestered

Thanks!

Posted by: aussie at December 21, 2012 08:50 AM (NM75o)

Pretty much a forced budget cut.

http://tinyurl.com/bmcl8xp

Posted by: RWC at December 21, 2012 08:58 AM (fWAjv)

296 " not cheerfully welcoming a new recession."

recession is either here or coming whether there's a cliff or not. get used to it. we'll be lucky if we're not in depression by 2016.

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 08:58 AM (yAor6)

297 286 somewhat the same, since as a nebaskan and more specifically a lincolnite I firmly side with the union in the civil war, although I do highly respect the confederate generals. Both my elementary school, Sheridan, and my middle school, Irving, are named after Union Generals

Posted by: lincolnite at December 21, 2012 08:59 AM (uFY4s)

298 "You would say that since we can't save everyone, we should do nothing. And call it principled! "

Yes, I do call treating everybody the same principled.

The American people voted for Obama, and now they're going to get the consequences. Tough shit.

"By weakening the GOP's negotiating position"

Oh, please. An inbred cocker spaniel could bluff Boehner in poker.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 09:00 AM (w9BpZ)

299
Left: Psychopaths.
Right: Morons.
Middle: Screwed again.

Posted by: Cyrus V. Pants at December 21, 2012 09:00 AM (x9s9/)

300 New thread up

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 09:00 AM (piMMO)

301

save people from what??

there is no cliff, you ninny

Posted by: soothsayer at December 21, 2012 09:00 AM (wAng0)

302 289 I refer not to there demographics but to who votes in there elections. They get the minority votes

Posted by: lincolnite at December 21, 2012 09:01 AM (uFY4s)

303 The Boehner hate this morning warms my heart. Might be the best Christmas gift of the year.

Posted by: SpongeBob Saget's square dildo at December 21, 2012 09:01 AM (97nMP)

304 Not the Civil War...... the Recent Unpleasantness.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at December 21, 2012 09:01 AM (l3vZN)

305
1) Complete surrender, which allows them to be included in the blame.

2) Futile resistance in which whatever miniscule concessions they get out of the Left are later held up as the reasons they are to blame for everything that is soon to go wrong.

3) Stand aside and make the Left own it. Let it burn.


Number 3? Yeah, that was Plan B. House GOP passes a popular tax bill, says Merry Christmas and gets the hell out of dodge. Obama vows a veto and the Senate Dems refuse to pass it. We go over the edge and get to say that we tried to prevent it, but the Dems wouldn't.

Now, we've failed to do anything to avert the tax rate hikes. We've affirmatively demonstrated that we won't. That's your Number 1. So the Democrats get to claim that they're the responsible ones when we go off the edge.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:02 AM (B2LxR)

306 Disagree with some points. GOP was getting the blame no matter what. I don't agree with your point about the GOP not being serious. They offered many kinds of plans, only to be rebuffed.

Fuck em, go over the cliff. Many Americans need to experience it to understand it.

Posted by: pointsnfigures at December 21, 2012 09:02 AM (0Atym)

307 Talk about selective attention to the facts. The rich guy's taxes are going up automatically.
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 08:56 AM (B2LxR)

pot meet kettle!! EVERYBODY'S taxes will go up. but you are upset that conservatives didnt throw the "rich" to the wolves so that you could avoid YOUR taxes going up.

Posted by: chas at December 21, 2012 09:02 AM (TKF1Y)

308 Posted by: Blalalalalal at December 21, 2012 09:01 AM (ND1Un)



Somebody around here got a BanHammer?

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 21, 2012 09:03 AM (da5Wo)

309 I saw that pic of Dole saluting Inoyue's coffin. Too bad he couldn't have killed two birds with one stone and cold cocked that oleaginous kid-fucker Reid while he was up.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at December 21, 2012 09:03 AM (zF6Iw)

310 I have to admit to being surprised. Conservatives should have supported Plan B.

Of course, I also supported McCain-Kennedy.

Maybe I'm not as conservative as I thought I was.


Posted by: JohnJ at December 21, 2012 09:03 AM (nkUzV)

311
recession is either here or coming whether there's a cliff or not. get used to it. we'll be lucky if we're not in depression by 2016.

To the people that just want to give up, I understand. You're tired. You're probably old. But I'm not ready to give up. I'm not just going to lie there and take it. We can mitigate the coming disaster, even if we can't avoid it entirely. We have both a constitutional and moral duty to mitigate it. I will not surrender on this.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:03 AM (B2LxR)

312 296 RWC

Thanks for that - I searched for it too and couldn't really find the meaning in the context of the US

I did discover that sequestration is a Scottish word for bankruptcy !

Posted by: aussie at December 21, 2012 09:04 AM (NM75o)

313 Number 3? Yeah, that was Plan B. House GOP passes a popular tax bill, says Merry Christmas and gets the hell out of dodge.
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:02 AM (B2LxR)

except they never came up w/a popular tax bill. they came up w/ a piece of shit called plan b

Posted by: chas at December 21, 2012 09:04 AM (TKF1Y)

314 The only way there will be any real spending cuts is the Cliff. My own personnel Ox will be gored with cuts in defense spending, but I'll survive. Let's do it! LIB!

Posted by: Paladin at December 21, 2012 09:04 AM (bxc5w)

315 Posted by: Blalalalalal at December 21, 2012 09:01 AM (ND1Un)


.....

Over the fucking line!

Whether you agree with a viewpoint or not, your behavior is unacceptable.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 09:04 AM (piMMO)

316 Sorry, Gabe. This is the best thing for America. Have everything come crashing down, then once people can't stand anymore...we elect REAL leaders. Ones who don't cry on the floor of the House, etc.

Posted by: Picasa Tucasa at December 21, 2012 09:05 AM (fAQUS)

317 >> The tax hikes and the defense cuts in the cliff are going to have long-term disastrous effect on many, many people.

That, my friend, is baked into the cake. See also, $16 trillion of debt, annual $1 trillion+ deficits and no real plan on either side of the aisle to address our spending addiction.

Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2012 09:05 AM (OZPoa)

318
Has anyone mentioned that Plan B was originally a Pelosi plan?
Posted by: Vic





Hush now. We're busy trying to explain why co-signing on Obama's tax priorities is suddenly that "hill to die on" that we've all been looking for.

Posted by: Team Republican (tm)

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at December 21, 2012 09:06 AM (kdS6q)

319 "Oh look, butt-fucking preachy fag lawyer preaches at us"

pathetic. that's no way to argue about Gabe. I have my issues with him and have openly stated how unpopular he is with me but using his personal life like that? you can do better then that. *sighs* *shakes his head* *sighs*

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 09:06 AM (yAor6)

320 "We can mitigate the coming disaster, even if we can't avoid it entirely."

"Mitigation" and "compromise" is what got us here to begin with, but then we useless old senile fuckers have been around long enough to know that.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 09:06 AM (w9BpZ)

321 Buh-bye, asshole.

Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2012 09:07 AM (OZPoa)

322
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:03 AM (B2LxR)


Mitigating the disaster doesn't include tax hikes though.

Posted by: JohnTant at December 21, 2012 09:07 AM (eytER)

323 Politics is and always will be the art of compromise. There are 435 representatives, all with their own views on every issue. You will never find a a solution that is truly palatable to all of them, so you have to shoot for one that will attract a majority of them.

This.

We conservatives tend to miss the governing forest for the ideological trees.  

Sometimes, though, a solid single up the middle (sorry for the abrupt metaphor shift) is as good as a home run. It isn't often a matter of hit a home run or fail.

To take the argument out of fiscal matters for a minute: I'm about as pro-life as they come. If I were a congresscritter and a bill came up banning partial-birth abortions, I wouldn't vote against it simply because it doesn't go far enough. I'd vote for it because it's an incremental good, because I can hit the single on a pitch that I can't hit out of the park. Get a run in, keep the inning going, and start to shift the game in the right direction.

Or - I can vote against it, go down swinging for the fences, and know in my heart of hearts that I remained ideologically chaste and a true warrior for the cause.  See: Akin, Todd.

Zombie John Gotti has it exactly right.  It's the difference between taking a stand and governing. Would I like to see a greater reduction in abortion? Sure. Would I like to see lower taxes for everyone and meaningful reductions in spending? Absolutely. But sometimes what we most want isn't a choice available to us at the moment. It may be in the future, but to bring that about takes patience, persuasion, and - yes - sometimes not being the hero because in this game situation a single is the best we can do.  

The Gramsciians now in power did exactly this for decades, and they are now reaping the fruit.

Us? Not so much.  Looks from here like we'll be basically be back-benchers for the foreseeable future, but at least we'll have our ideological purity intact.

Posted by: crisis du jour at December 21, 2012 09:08 AM (DFGPG)

324 We can mitigate the coming disaster, even if we can't avoid it entirely.
We have both a constitutional and moral duty to mitigate it.
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:03 AM

The proposed Revenue Increase over ten years was less than one years increase in spending. So when that tax isn't enough, where will they look for the balance?

Posted by: Dept of Accuracy at December 21, 2012 09:09 AM (+I8Mq)

325 Gabriel, it's time the Democrats vote on Obama's plan isn't it, what is he at $400,000 now? See you understand Republicans will get most of the blame anyway without Democrats ever submitting their plan. How do Democrats look responsible when they never voted on Obama's proposal in negotiations? The last poll I saw people would blame Republicans 57% and 11% both parties, 30 some percent Democrats. Pain will bleed into the 7% majority and people will be pissed at both parties. You will see that 57% decrease.

Posted by: Brad at December 21, 2012 09:09 AM (4wewJ)

326
Mitigating the disaster doesn't include tax hikes though.

Maybe if you keep repeating that the GOP was being asked to vote for a tax hike, I might one day believe it. But I doubt it. Because they weren't.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:09 AM (B2LxR)

327
Why would conservatives think that cutting social security contributions is a tax cut? Unless they are recognizing that its a ponzi scheme and its not reallly going to one's own retirement.

Posted by: Dirks Strewn at December 21, 2012 09:10 AM (VLifP)

328
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:02 AM (B2LxR)


What makes you think Senate Dems would have refused to pass a tax hike on the wealthy with no corresponding spending cuts whatsoever?!

Also, Reid apparently didn't have the power to stop a vote on Plan B. It was attached to HJR 66, which didn't allow for a filibuster.

Posted by: JohnTant at December 21, 2012 09:10 AM (eytER)

329
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:09 AM (B2LxR)

Letting a tax cut expire is the same as a tax hike, and all the word games in the world won't change that.

Posted by: JohnTant at December 21, 2012 09:11 AM (eytER)

330 Obama lied-Boehner cried-America died.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at December 21, 2012 09:11 AM (wbmaj)

331 325 We can mitigate the coming disaster, even if we can't avoid it entirely.
We have both a constitutional and moral duty to mitigate it.
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:03 AM

.....

This is negotiating from a point of fear, not strength. It's like negotiating with terrorists.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 09:12 AM (piMMO)

332
Posted by: crisis du jour at December 21, 2012 09:08 AM (DFGPG)

Compromise only works when the other side is willing to meet you halfway. Funny how Dems aren't getting criticized by the go-along-get-along contingent here for not sacrificing their principles....

Posted by: JohnTant at December 21, 2012 09:13 AM (eytER)

333 I get retreating to fight another day as a tactic, but you ultimately have to be willing to fight.

Boehner, McConnell and crew seem to want to play like McClellan and just camp out on the banks of the Potomac while the war rages.

Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2012 09:13 AM (OZPoa)

334 It's supposed to be about doing the best you can with what you have to work with at the moment. It's not supposed to be about throwing a fit because you didn't get everything you want.

I think that's the difference between governing and punditry. If you want to do the first, be a politician; if you want to do the second, be a pundit.

Posted by: JohnJ at December 21, 2012 09:14 AM (nkUzV)

335 Wyoming has the second highest taxes per capita in the country.


This despite the fact that it has no State income tax!

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 09:14 AM (53z96)

336 We can mitigate the coming disaster, even if we can't avoid it entirely.

We have both a constitutional and moral duty to mitigate it.


Gabe, sorry man - but it's precisely that sort of strategy that got us here in the first place.
$16T+ in debt
$1t+ in annual deficits
4-more years of JEF
2-more Senators for Harry's do-nothing caucus
15-fewer (more or less) House Republicans

The Sheeple voted, they want higher taxes and a Scandi-style welfare state. "We" are under no obligation whatsoever to keep them from the joy of that decision.

Posted by: DocJ at December 21, 2012 09:16 AM (A5uiv)

337
I get retreating to fight another day as a tactic, but you ultimately have to be willing to fight.

Boehner, McConnell and crew seem to want to play like McClellan and just camp out on the banks of the Potomac while the war rages.


I don't get this at all. You're not describing Boehner and McConnell, you're describing the defecting conservatives.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:17 AM (B2LxR)

338 At the end of the day, we need a speaker who can lead. Boehner, no matter how nice a man, is not a great good leader.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 09:18 AM (piMMO)

339 "15-fewer (more or less) House Republicans"

well -8 to be technical

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 09:19 AM (yAor6)

340
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:17 AM (B2LxR)

Gabe, Boehner and McConnell have been negotiating against themselves for most if not all of this cycle. The only people they're willing to fight is the base.

Posted by: JohnTant at December 21, 2012 09:20 AM (eytER)

341 The following has nothing to do with today's purported end of the world BS.

Obama is God's man at this time. That is to say: Obama, an evil man who himself is condemned where he stands, is a tool of God's judgment. He is not The Antichrist, only a precursor. So are all wicked, lying state-worshippers and the paganized, iniquitous fools who empower them. God is using them all for His purposes, setting the global stage for the true End, and none can thwart or even delay it any longer. The worldwide trend in their direction is now unalterable; that much most of you see and admit to, even if you disagree on the reason why. It is why nothing we can do to oppose them has worked, or will work. God's judgment is falling everywhere, has been for some time, and very often He has used the most wicked humans as His instruments to do so.

There's really nothing new going on here.

Posted by: Finger writing on the wall at December 21, 2012 09:21 AM (mV5Rx)

342 well -8 to be technical

Really? Sorry, thought it was more than that.

I am corrected, mea culpa.

Posted by: DocJ at December 21, 2012 09:21 AM (A5uiv)

343
The Sheeple voted, they want higher taxes and a Scandi-style welfare state. "We" are under no obligation whatsoever to keep them from the joy of that decision.

48% of people didn't vote for that. I see no reason why they should be expected to just lie down and take it. Stop pretending that "higher taxes and a Scandi-style welfare state" will only affect Obama voters.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 09:21 AM (B2LxR)

344 The Democrats seem to havea better record of standing behind their most vile former speaker, Pelosi. I'm not sure what the right way to vote was, but if Republicans want to get back in power and start fixing stuff, we are going to have to act a little more like Democrats and vote in lockstep. Maybe a different speaker will be a better leader.

Posted by: JustLikeDavidHasselhoff at December 21, 2012 09:22 AM (QyMDY)

345 Forget it, Vic, it's RINOtown.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, keeper of the Sacred Ampersands at December 21, 2012 09:23 AM (GBXon)

346 In 2010 the Democrat controlled congress passed a budget with $1.1T in deficits. The House has passed CRs year after year since then with the same budget because Reid will not bring a bill to vote,


Time to quit these CRs.

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 09:23 AM (53z96)

347 "Maybe if you keep repeating that the GOP was being asked to vote for a tax hike"

That "expiration of tax cuts is not actually a tax hike" line might work with a jury that's been carefully weeded of anyone with an IQ above room temperature, but not here.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 09:24 AM (w9BpZ)

348 Maybe Boehner is regretting kicking all the conservatives off their committee assignments right now?

<i>48% of people didn't vote for that. I see no reason why they should be
expected to just lie down and take it. Stop pretending that "higher
taxes and a Scandi-style welfare state" will only affect Obama voters.</i>

But 52% did. Last time I checked, 52% > 48%. Hey, why did I just realize that Let It Burn is LIB?

Posted by: Jon in TX at December 21, 2012 09:24 AM (PKRPm)

349 ha, I guess the old <i> tag doesn't work. Should have used the toolbar I guess.

Posted by: Jon in TX at December 21, 2012 09:25 AM (PKRPm)

350 technically the popular vote was 51%-47%-2%, 51% for O, 47% for R, and 2% who threw their votes away

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 09:25 AM (yAor6)

351 48% of people didn't vote for that. I see no reason why they should be expected to just lie down and take it.

They lost. We lost. Nobody is saying they have to "lie down" and think of England, but elections have consequences. The GOP position has been to shield the masses from one of the biggest consequences - that all of this "free" stuff isn't, in fact, free.

Stop pretending that "higher taxes and a Scandi-style welfare state" will only affect Obama voters.

And this is why it's impossible to argue logically with you - I've made no such assertion.

Posted by: DocJ at December 21, 2012 09:26 AM (A5uiv)

352 LET!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is all

Posted by: Evilpens at December 21, 2012 09:26 AM (ck76k)

353 #307

Bullshit, utterly and completely. Plan B was just the same old #2 they've been pitching for the last four years.

What part of the word incremental do you not understand? This is the standard leftist playbook. Demand 100 and settle for 10. Then demand the next 100 and settle for 10 again. Rinse, repeat. With patience you'll have the original 100 and the opposition will wonder how the hell it came to this.

People are going to suffer? Gosh, no fucking kidding. When did this come to your attention? We've been working towards this since the 1930s when Hoover decided a crisis was something not to be wasted and used it to take up meddling in a big way, Roosevelt ran against his meddling then made Hoover look timid by comparison.

The trend has slowed down occasionally but never stopped, even under Reagan. If something cannot continue, it will stop. When you've grown government into such a behemoth it becomes a death trap. Stop the machine and the lava flows, the air is evacuated, the tigers are released, the rotating blades descend, etc. For millions who've been raised to accept government dependency as normal the only question is which doom will get them first.

The GOP is controlled by cowards. They've seen the numbers and they know there is no way to even attempt to fix things that won't create massive rioting in the inner cities that will require a ruthless response to manage if the cities aren't to be lost entirely. Nobody wants to be in charge when the time comes to give those orders, so they delay and delay in hopes it will be someone else problem.

The music is going to stop soon and there are already far fewer chairs than players.

Posted by: epobirs at December 21, 2012 09:28 AM (kcfmt)

354 @354

And the thread winner has arrived, not a minute too soon I might add!

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 09:30 AM (RrD4h)

355 Conservatives enthusiastically gave control of the House to the GOP in 2010 with a mandate to cut spending. The gutless GOP not only failed to cut spending, it handed Obama an ax to whack a trillion bucks out of defense. Now Boehner's feckless nonsense has backfired and he is driving conservatives off committee positions. And you want to blame conservatives for not playing to his tune?

Posted by: DaMav at December 21, 2012 09:32 AM (rT08W)

356 In fact, while Speaker Boehner was busy whipping votes last night, at least 20 members had already taken off, to eat gumbo. You can tell how seriously these members, including Trey Gowdy and Steve Southerland, take their obligations

Gabe, why should the Republican House members give a shit? At the last election the American voters gave Harry Reid all the power. Why waste time?

Posted by: Decaf at December 21, 2012 09:32 AM (ye4K3)

357 Gumbo

http://www.gumbocity.com/Andouille_Sausage_and_Shrimp.html

Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2012 09:34 AM (53z96)

358 Mitigate the disaster? We've been doing that since Roosevelt.

We are facing a day in the foreseeable future when the interest on the national debt exceeds any possible annual revenue. If you tried to suggest America would be in this state to any economist of the 1950s they would have laughed at you and said it simply wasn't possible to sustain such bad policy for long enough to make that happen.

Wanna bet?

Posted by: epobirs at December 21, 2012 09:35 AM (kcfmt)

359 Ummmmm guys, the dems weren't going to agree to anything anyway!
They want us to go over the cliff so when everyone's taxes go up, they can blame the GOP!
Gabe, you are a SCOAMF

Posted by: Hard Right at December 21, 2012 09:36 AM (uhftQ)

360 I guess you weren't watching when the market futures plummeted last night after the Speaker had to pull the bill?

And what porportion of Wall Street investors andbrokers voted for Obama on Nov 6? What were they expecting?

Posted by: Decaf at December 21, 2012 09:36 AM (ye4K3)

361 @354 well said. we are playing with printed money and making promises we can't keep. we're screwed either way. we had a slight chance to avert things but as the exit polling showed, folks didn't care. They even admitted they thought Romney would lead to a better economy. But they picked their feelings over the facts. And those Republicans who didn't turn out, they are just as culpable.

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 09:37 AM (yAor6)

362 What does the green ribbon on the google home page mean?

Posted by: Questioner at December 21, 2012 09:37 AM (uFY4s)

363 The MIB people got their wish. They don't want to see the Republicans or conservatives take back this country as the LIB people do. They want to throw gasoline on it and proclaim to everyone that ,yeah I set the fire and I want the Country to burn to theground just to teachyou people a lesson.

Posted by: polynikes at December 21, 2012 09:38 AM (m2CN7)

364 I guess the old tag doesn't work. Should have used the toolbar I guess.


Hahahahaha

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 21, 2012 09:38 AM (QupBk)

365 If only Boehner had been in charge of the house last year, we could have averted this whole fiscal cliff to begin with. Oh... Never mind.

Posted by: Dr. Eviler at December 21, 2012 09:39 AM (VtutD)

366 polynikes, it's burning regardless. why do you people still think the pain that's coming can be averted any longer. we've kicked enough cans down the road. it's time to stop feeding the addict

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 09:40 AM (yAor6)

367 350 ha, I guess the old tag doesn't work. Should have used the toolbar I guess.


.....


Use [ instead of <

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 09:40 AM (piMMO)

368 The music is going to stop soon and there are already far fewer chairs than players.

+100

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 21, 2012 09:41 AM (QupBk)

369 363 What does the green ribbon on the google home page mean?


....

Click on it

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 09:41 AM (piMMO)

370 369
The music is going to stop soon and there are already far fewer chairs than players.



+100

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 21, 2012 09:41 AM (QupBk)
let the fight for the chairs begin

Posted by: The Question at December 21, 2012 09:42 AM (uFY4s)

371 Kiss the 2014 elections away.

That will depend on how Americans like their dive in the standard of living? I am aware that the foodstamps people will be just fine, I'm talking about the borderline few million who just miss out on receiving assistance. Could they be the deciding vote in 2014?

Posted by: Decaf at December 21, 2012 09:42 AM (ye4K3)

372 370: it doesn't link for me, its just an image

Posted by: The Question at December 21, 2012 09:43 AM (uFY4s)

373 "Last night, House members dealt a blow to our chances of averting the fiscal cliff "
----
oh no! Not the fiscal cliff! We can keep living in fantasy land for a little longer, if not for those damn republicans living in reality.

Posted by: Whatev at December 21, 2012 09:44 AM (2t6Gz)

374 Meh,
Let It Burn



Mmmmmm. Gumbo

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at December 21, 2012 09:45 AM (GE1+K)

375 The whole purpose of LIB is to put the blame on the Dems. Just because you keep saying they are going to blame the Republicans anyway doesn't mean that they will be successful in doing so. The only way they will be successful is crap like having to pull a bill and not giving the Dems a chance to shoot themselves in the foot. They were not going to pass it anyway and if they did Obama threatened a veto. The ball would have been back in their court. Now it remains in our court. Stupid fucking MIB people.

Posted by: polynikes at December 21, 2012 09:45 AM (m2CN7)

376 I like Gumbo

Posted by: The Question at December 21, 2012 09:45 AM (uFY4s)

377 "Posted by: Decaf at December 21, 2012 09:42 AM (ye4K3)"

i've already expanded on why public opinion as regards to elections means nothing today when talking 2014. in 1 year O went from toast to re-elected. in 1 year HW went from sure fire 2nd term to goner. In 1 year W went from re-elected to national villain. the argument "it'll cost us the elections!" is pointless right now.

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 09:46 AM (yAor6)

378 I think the Republicans should have passed Plan B, but I can't get too worked up over it. This is Boehner's mess. He put us in this position in 2011. He's an inept leader and it's time for him to go.

Here's something to think about: Obama campaigned on 3-1 spending cuts to tax increases. Why in the world didn't Boehner give him exactly that and then hammer over and over that this was OBAMA'S PROMISE?

There were so many way's to box Obama in on this, but Boehner lacks the creativity and guts to do it.

So whatever. I'm a Libertarian now. Let it burn.

Posted by: Warden at December 21, 2012 09:46 AM (0DlnM)

379 The whole purpose of LIB is to put the blame on the Dems

Not for me. For me, the purpose of LiFB is to let a breath of reality enter the fantasy world we are living in.

Big government costs money, it's time to start paying for it.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 21, 2012 09:46 AM (QupBk)

380 378
"Posted by: Decaf at December 21, 2012 09:42 AM (ye4K3)"

i've
already expanded on why public opinion as regards to elections means
nothing today when talking 2014. in 1 year O went from toast to
re-elected. in 1 year HW went from sure fire 2nd term to goner. In 1
year W went from re-elected to national villain. the argument "it'll
cost us the elections!" is pointless right now.


Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 09:46 AM (yAor6)
Indeed, the attention span of the general public is quite small

Posted by: The Question at December 21, 2012 09:46 AM (uFY4s)

381 Oh, stop the bawwing about "fringe conservatives." The so-called "middle class" (whatever the fuck that actually means) deserves to pay higher taxes, because they're the ones who insist that the so-called "rich" (whatever the fuck that actually means) be the only ones to pay taxes. I'm not willing to play class warfare with the dumbasses who are the majority in this country anymore. Either taxes stay low for everyone, or they stay low for no one. Why? Because guess what? That's what's fair.

Anyway, Republicans should have passed a bill cutting taxes for every income bracket weeks ago, then left town.

Posted by: Mr. Estrada at December 21, 2012 09:47 AM (aLyv3)

382 Conservatives enthusiastically gave control of the House to the GOP in 2010 with a mandate to cut spending. The gutless GOP not only failed to cut spending, it handed Obama an ax to whack a trillion bucks out of defense. Now Boehner's feckless nonsense has backfired and he is driving conservatives off committee positions.

Time for new leadership.

Posted by: DaMav at December 21, 2012 09:47 AM (rT08W)

383 "Stupid fucking MIB people."

I see polynikes way of arguing remains the same. attack and name-call. tell us again how Romney was a sure fire winner again polynikes?

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 09:47 AM (yAor6)

384 Not for me. For me, the purpose of LiFB is to let a breath of reality enter the fantasy world we are living in. Big government costs money, it's time to start paying for it.
Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 21, 2012 09:46 AM (QupBk)

The reality realization I'm going for with LIBis that the pain is a result of the Democrats / Left not the Conservatives.

Posted by: polynikes at December 21, 2012 09:49 AM (m2CN7)

385 @379, Warden your post are my thoughts exactly. I was ok with Paln B but going over the cliff is ok with me to. pain is coming regardless.

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 21, 2012 09:50 AM (yAor6)

386 "We are facing a day in the foreseeable future when the interest on the national debt exceeds any possible annual revenue."

Yoohoo! What about me?

Posted by: Hyperinflation at December 21, 2012 09:51 AM (w9BpZ)

387 Every single time Gabriel Malor has a chance to sell out his supposed principles and advocate moving left, he does so. He's very dependable that way.

Very representative of Republican "leadership" as a whole, also. These aren't people who want to advance their principles; they are people who want a share of Democrat power. Wholly untrustworthy.

Posted by: Rollory at December 21, 2012 09:51 AM (iWqAg)

388 #378 and #381, I see both of your points but we tend to always fight the last war which means that we will be addressing the 2012 election where the 'where's my free stuff?' ruled.

Posted by: Decaf at December 21, 2012 09:52 AM (ye4K3)

389
Seriously Gabe, get a grip. Nothing this Congress could have done will change a 2013-2014 Black Swan. Japan is dead meat, Spain, Greece, Argentina,... All will fail by November 2014 elections. Morgan Stanley goes with them.
Norway spends 44% of GDP on revenues of 41%. That's best in the West.
The election of Dog to another 4 is the ball game. WTFU.

Posted by: gary gulrud at December 21, 2012 09:53 AM (uv0Aw)

390 So, Gabby, when Wile E. Coyote looked down and realize that he was off the cliff, what could he do to "mitigate the disaster"?

Posted by: Gerry at December 21, 2012 09:54 AM (xzVnO)

391 when Wile E. Coyote looked down and realize that he was off the cliff, what could he do to "mitigate the disaster"?

Deploy the anvil.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 21, 2012 09:55 AM (QupBk)

392 I read the first 80 comments and couldn't go one. Glad to see there are some here that really call out Malor for being the ignorant slut that he is.
Take a step back and think of the overriding argument to be for Plan B? To deflect some blame from the Republican party? This massive collection of fail that gave us Romney and Obama II? Who the f* gives a rats ass about the Republican party? The issue here is about the American people.
Where in any of the failshit legislation from the second wing of the democrat party does it seriously address the entitlements? this is all smoke and mirrors to buy some loyalty from a base that is completely disgusted with the lack of principle on display. Malor and the other propagandists are simply clamoring to be let on the bus. Screw that. And screw this site for becoming a simple mouthpiece for those that would seek to enslave all of us.
You are all useful idiots. Those that voted against this, are the ones with principles.

Posted by: Old Texas Turkey at December 21, 2012 09:55 AM (xjTfl)

393 I simply fail to see the need for all the hand wringing over the failure of Plan B. Gabe puts forth as if once having passed, it could be become law. Bullshit. Reid was never going to allow a vote and Obama promised a veto,thus Plan B had zero chance of becoming law and was just political posturing. Had it passed and the House adjourned for the year, the media would still blame the GOP, because you know they are never going to attach any blame to Reid or Obama in this matter. So in the end, Plan B was just another pathetic attempt by the nerds (GOP) to try to be liked by the cool kids (the media) who after watching you dance at the end of a string for their own amusement, turn their backs on you because they were never going to like you in the first place. Gabe can sniff at the GOP opposition for standing on principal, why shouldn't they? Why should they sell out so the media can laugh at them for being so stupid as to think that they would approve of what they did? Christ, how many times does Lucy have snatch the football away at the last minute before you learn?

And the analogy of Boehner playing chess? Spare me. Look who he is playing against, Obama. That would be like Boehner play chess against a pigeon because you know the pigeon is going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and then strut around on it like he is victorious or something.

Posted by: Thresherman at December 21, 2012 09:57 AM (Vbcjo)

394
The GOP shared power, it will rightly share the blame.

Way late to the thread as usual, has anybody said yet "no, they will take all the blame, that's the way it works".

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 21, 2012 09:57 AM (69Mdf)

395 >>>The reality realization I'm going for with LIBis that the pain is a result of the Democrats / Left not the Conservatives.


Then you think this is going to be way to easy. Get back to reality, the house has done far more than the Senate. It doesn't matter. Rs will get the blame for the comming collapse no matter what. Even if they cut a deal, even if they gave Obama what he wants, even if they pass plan B, it will always be republicans fault. So you are really just being delusional that this fight matters. It won't change the outcome period.

People have to live it before they'll learn so let it burn, let it burn, let it burn.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at December 21, 2012 09:58 AM (GE1+K)

396 The reason I think'where's my free stuff?' is still going to be relevant was illustrated by the Watters segment on O'Reilly last night. Watters was in Hawaii doing his 'people on the street' schtich when two women came right out and said that they voted for Obama simply because his ads stated that Romney was going to take away their food stamps. As the economy gets worse there will be more uneployed and more people on foodstamps therefore more poeple voting Democrat. Ergo, ipso facto and all that.

Posted by: Decaf at December 21, 2012 09:58 AM (ye4K3)

397 LET IT FUCKING BURN ...HARD.


do a belly flop off the fiscal cliff.

Posted by: vikingsfan at December 21, 2012 10:00 AM (NhZzK)

398 This is so stupid it hurts.

Seriously.

Posted by: bobloblaw at December 21, 2012 10:01 AM (YftoG)

399 "our purist Repubs have made it clear that protecting the millionaires
and billionaires takes priority over protecting more than 98% of
Americans from tax increases. Indefensible."

This. I don't agree too often with Gabe (or, hell, with Speaker Boehner), but he is right here. This outcome is depressing, as well as foolish. It's like we never get to simply GET SOMETHING RIGHT and play smart. Huge enthusiasm killer.



Posted by: P.M. at December 21, 2012 10:01 AM (bPsSR)

400 And screw this site for becoming a simple mouthpiece for those that would seek to enslave all of us.

Now, just wait a minute there, Old Texas Turkey. This is one of the rare places on the internet where you can still speak your mind and discuss issues without looking over your shoulder.

Posted by: Decaf at December 21, 2012 10:03 AM (ye4K3)

401 BFD.

Let it burn.

Posted by: RoyalOil at December 21, 2012 10:05 AM (imtbm)

402 I don't know this galor person but I'm sick of her freak out hysteria. We are routinely told we're at the edge of disaster if politicians don't do this or that and 999 times out of 1000 we'd be better off if they did nothing.

Posted by: Devan at December 21, 2012 10:06 AM (tw8WA)

403 Damnit Boehner.

"The perception was out there" and throws Cons under the bus for failing to save any from the drowning.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 10:09 AM (piMMO)

404 Let me get this straight: the Democrat Senate has not done a legally REQUIRD budget in 3 years but if we go over this so called cliff it's Republicans fault?!! Give me a break.....from hysterical Idiocracy.

Posted by: Devan at December 21, 2012 10:10 AM (tw8WA)

405 If Boehner made a mistake, it was in hawking Plan B when he didn't have the votes for it.

Posted by: JohnJ at December 21, 2012 10:10 AM (nkUzV)

406 To hell with any compromise.

The problem is Boehner. He can't negotiate worth crap and, even if you accept the argument that this is a good deal, he still sets the GOP up to be losers.

We need new leadership in hte GOP--and as for tax increases---Hell, this is what the country voted for--let them live with it.!

Posted by: Zombie Campbell at December 21, 2012 10:11 AM (HqpV0)

407 Sorry Decaf, but disagree. This post by Malor decrying opposition to a sellout piece of legislation as unprincipled - is simply stating the establishment line.

The Republican party does not represent conservatism or classical liberalism. it is a failshit wanna be democratic party. That the leadership that brought us McCain and Romney are still in power and the movement that gave them majority in 2010 is purged and systematically marginalized means that the end is up for the Reps as they stand now. This may be the greatest gift Obama ever gave us.

That Gabe cannot tell the difference or be agitating more principled resistance to selling out as a step to taking the party back is simply a sad day for Ace of Spades.

Posted by: Old Texas Turkey at December 21, 2012 10:13 AM (xjTfl)

408 Things haven't been going too well for the GOP lately, huh?

You just know boehner was weeping like a little boy as this went down. Merry Christmas!

Posted by: Olaf at December 21, 2012 10:13 AM (t1NLo)

409 Yeah--Boehner said he had the votes and told every member that he had the votes. Why would he do that if he didn't have the votes? Was he just lying to try and force his members to fall in line--pretend that the consensus was so strong that those who disagreed would be compelled to fall in line?

How...Washington....

The first step forward for the GOP is dumping Boehner.

Posted by: Zombie Campbell at December 21, 2012 10:14 AM (HqpV0)

410 Boehner will not be dumped. Nobody else wants the job. They're perfectly happy to keep throwing shit at him and playing right into Obama's hands.

Once again, conservatives find a way to make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Posted by: rockmom at December 21, 2012 10:17 AM (NYnoe)

411 The party who brought us "compassionate conservatism" still wonders why they are failshit, marginalizedlaughing stock tokens. Cornball brothers indeed.

Posted by: Old Texas Turkey at December 21, 2012 10:18 AM (xjTfl)

412 I guess you weren't watching when the market futures plummeted last night after the Speaker had to pull the bill?

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 21, 2012 07:16 AM (jZUEZ)

And that represents what average Joe Sixpack knows? Bullshit, the majority of voters out there aren't paying attention to this inside baseball shit.

Posted by: KG at December 21, 2012 10:18 AM (p7BzH)

413 Wait.

I've seen this tactic before.

Ever purchased a car and had the salesman running back and forth to the finance guy before he finally says I just cant get that deal for you. We're losing money!"

Boehner and company are working in cahoots.

Boehner is playing good cop.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 21, 2012 10:19 AM (piMMO)

414 Rockmom - they are not conservatives. They are Republicans. Take a huge first step and seperate the two. They do not represent us nor do they care for us.

Posted by: Old Texas Turkey at December 21, 2012 10:19 AM (xjTfl)

415 Let me get this straight: the Democrat Senate has not done a legally REQUIRD budget in 3 years but if we go over this so called cliff it's Republicans fault?!! Give me a break.....from Idiocracy

Take step back, a deep breath and then think who is in charge of the media messaging. Clear now?

What do you think Ace has been railing about since he started this website?

Posted by: Decaf at December 21, 2012 10:20 AM (ye4K3)

416 394 Thresherman
And the analogy of Boehner playing chess? Spare me. Look who he is playing against, Obama. That would be like Boehner play chess against a pigeon because you know the pigeon is going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and then strut around on it like he is victorious or something.


Now THAT is the thread winner.

Posted by: rickl at December 21, 2012 10:21 AM (zoehZ)

417 #387

Possible but not probable. The historical precedents for hyperinflation aren't there. Instead, we're entering entirely uncharted waters. The Singularity won't be the Rapture of the Nerds. It'll be the moment when the Fed and the Treasury say a dollar is worth X and everybody demands that they not only solve for X but show their work.

Thrilling, isn't it?

Much of the rationale for TARP was that the bad MBS paper the banks and other financial institution were holding was impossible to value because nobody was completely sure who owned all of the mortgages and what portion were delinquent. (Michael Lewis' The Big Short is probably the best book for sane outsiders to try to get a grip on this stuff.) This was a huge lie because the reality everybody on Wall St. knew was that the paper was worthless. It was derivatives blowing up for the umpteenth time since the 80s. That is what caused the crash in the first place: enough people noticing the rate of delinquent mortgages had to have an effect on the crazed MBS market. The stuff had been broken for years but was only going to acknowledge the problem when outside observers collapsed the wave and forced a single consensual reality upon the world.

We're playing the same game on the global finance level now. It isn't just real estate anymore but the very money itself. At some point it breaks. Hyperinflation at least allows for a calculable value on the money. What happens when the equation comes out to zero? How many defaults will it take before that happens? We're in the process of finding out.

We have no hope of preventing the disaster. The debts are simply unpayable without cutting a vast number of dependents. Our best option is positioning ourselves for a deck chair near the lifeboats. Who goes first will likely suffer the worst. Europe? China? US?

It's the biggest casino ever. Place your bets while your currency is still honored.

Posted by: epobirs at December 21, 2012 10:22 AM (kcfmt)

418

BTW - apparently Boehner is doing a live webcast at 10:00 AM EST to ashen his face, rend his clothes and harangue the vertebrates for not going along with Plan B.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at December 21, 2012 10:25 AM (kdS6q)

419 Rockmom - they are not conservatives. They are Republicans. Take a huge first step and seperate the two. They do not represent us nor do they care for us.

Turkey, politics is not magic, it is the art of the possible (courtesy of Otto Von Bismarck).

Posted by: Decaf at December 21, 2012 10:26 AM (ye4K3)

420 I'm on an email list from Matt Kibbe at FreedomWorks, the outfit Ace initially promoted on AoS and to whom I initially gave credence to as a legitimately conservative organization. Kibbe and his pals lost me when they refused to endorse Romney for President, which only served to reinforce the position of those conservatives who were leaning toward staying home on election day.

So I receive an email from them the day before yesterday telling their supporters to oppose Plan B because "We cannot accept harmful policy simply for the sake of compromise." Here's a news flash for those idiots: compromise is how things are accomplished in our form of government.

No, I'm not a big Boehner fan, but I do consider myself a staunch member of the GOP and know that unity is the only way we're going to stymie or stall Obama's transformation of the United States into yet another failed socialist authoritarian superstate.

So now we go over the cliff. National defense will be gutted while entitlements continue to expand and the debt continues to climb to impossible levels. Another recession is a few months away (if it hasn't already begun). Oh, and yeah: one guess as to who gets blamed for the recession, rightly or wrongly?

With all that is confronting us, either we hang together or we hang separately.

Posted by: troyriser at December 21, 2012 10:29 AM (vtiE6)

421
All I have to say to Gabe is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xRrUVVKigk

Posted by: Garym at December 21, 2012 10:30 AM (NhEwn)

422
Last night, House members dealt a blow to our chances of averting the fiscal
cliff and they did it in the name of "principle."


Hack ass kool-aid bullshit.

Nobody was averting the fiscal cliff. Politics is all bullshit. You can't say the word politics without lying.

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 10:32 AM (TULs6)

423
Newflash people, 98% of the tax cuts was not a compromise that was going to pass the senate.

Seriously, WTF.

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 10:33 AM (TULs6)

424 @424

Forget it, he's on a roll!

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 21, 2012 10:36 AM (RrD4h)

425 #418? Yeah, I know. So what is your point? What magical thinking are you engaged in to believe that somebody's taxes are not going to go up at the end of the day here?

Posted by: rockmom at December 21, 2012 10:36 AM (NYnoe)

426 I say, just as an alcoholic needs to hit bottom before recovery can start, so does the country.

Let it burn.

Posted by: Anon at December 21, 2012 10:36 AM (fh3lh)

427 Rockmom - they are not conservatives. They are Republicans. Take a huge first step and seperate the two. They do not represent us nor do they care for us.
Posted by: Old Texas Turkey at December 21, 2012 10:19 AM (xjTfl)

The GOP is the means by which conservative ideas and ideals are realized in the actual, physical world. You can sit around with your pals and think happy conservative thoughts all day but unless you step up and participate in this, our two-party system, nothing happens, so this big distinction you and yours draw between the two, conservative and Republican, is self-defeating and borderline delusional.

What is needed in the face of a stealth socialist takeover of the United States is unity of action and purpose, and all you big-C Conservatives do is bitch and moan, threaten not to vote, encourage division, and put forward sure-loser candidates for high public office. Cut that shit out and either help save the country or get the fuck out of the way.

Posted by: troyriser at December 21, 2012 10:40 AM (vtiE6)

428 #421 It's even worse than that. If the tax rates expire, everyone;s taxes go up. Evene if this happens for a single day, Republicans will be held responsible by our state-run media, and when a deal is finally reached, as it will be, for some of those tax rates to stay while most are cut, these "new" tax cuts immediately become THE OBAMA TAX CUTS.

So now, Democrats become the party of Free Shit AND Tax Cuts. What is left for the Republican Partry to hang its hat on, beside opposing abortion and same-sex marriage?

John Boehner can see this coming and is desperately trying to avoid it. And all conservatives do is whine about principles, which frankly went out the window 10 years ago.

Posted by: rockmom at December 21, 2012 10:40 AM (qE3AR)

429 Who's the partisan around here? TOM COTTON has 1/3 page in the Wall Street Journal this morning. And so, it begins.

Posted by: comatus at December 21, 2012 10:42 AM (qaVK+)

430
Cut that shit out and either help save the country or get the fuck out of the way.

Wish posturing.

Save the country with posturing.

United posturing.

I think all you people give a shit about is blaming someone else.

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 10:43 AM (TULs6)

431
John Boehner can see this coming and is desperately trying to avoid it.

How????

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 10:44 AM (TULs6)

432 How the fuck does anyone contort themselves into believing Justin Amash controls the Senate?

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 10:44 AM (TULs6)

433 troyriser at December 21, 2012 10:40 AM (vtiE6)

Loser candidates, you mean like McCain and Romney?

Posted by: Dr. Eviler at December 21, 2012 10:45 AM (VtutD)

434
Rawrrawrrawr our leader John Boner says if we pat our heads and wear pink hats the Union is saved!

But those evil madmen puritycons said they would not wear pink hats! Treason! They fucked the Union!

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 10:50 AM (TULs6)

435 Loser candidates, you mean like McCain and Romney?
Posted by: Dr. Eviler at December 21, 2012 10:45 AM (VtutD)

You mean the fighter pilot war hero tortured for years for the sake of his country and the successful entrepeneur who hides his manygood works so it won't seem like bragging? Neither are losers, especially when compared to the little men who deride them. Both are accomplished, intelligent men and capable leaders. I wish both had fought harder (and smarter), but never once doubted their character or love of country.

No doubt you stayed at home on election day to protest their RINO squishiness.

Posted by: troyriser at December 21, 2012 10:56 AM (vtiE6)

436 I'm surprised, or maybe just disappointed, by the folks who are so unphased by the tax hit we're going to take.

Frankly, I don't see what core principle is embodied in specific tax rates (as compared to core principles on free speech, right to life, etc) that Huelskamp and his gang think they're protecting.

Tax rates can/do change based on the economic situation. Given the situation the middle and working classes find themselves in, and with more threats to their earnings in the form of job cuts and hours reductions (b/c of Obamacare), the priority of the fiscally-responsible Party should be to keep the hammer from falling on as many Americans as possible. IF we win back the Senate and hold the House two years from now, we can always reduce rates again.

So I guess I basically agree with Gabe.



Does anyone have a link to the vote that DID happen (and pass) yesterday? I want to see which Rs voted with the Ds.

Posted by: Y-not at December 21, 2012 10:58 AM (5H6zj)

437 "Now, we've failed to do anything to avert the tax rate hikes. We've
affirmatively demonstrated that we won't. That's your Number 1. So the
Democrats get to claim that they're the responsible ones when we go off the edge."

In case you haven't been paying attention to the mainstream media or Democrat talking points for the last few years, they are going to claim that anyway and that is the message that the network, newspapers and Hollywood are going to broadcast. The Democrat noise machine divorced itself from any connection to actual reality a long time ago.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at December 21, 2012 11:05 AM (31Nrp)

438
"Not for me. For me, the purpose of LiFB is to let a breath of reality enter the fantasy world we are living in."

Exactly.
All this bullshit about who gets blamed for what is precisely that: bullshit
The American people are responsible for this mess and when I say "Let it burn" I'm not advocating a policy decision that will force them to mend their ways.

I mean Let.It.Burn


Posted by: RayJ at December 21, 2012 11:05 AM (pI/IV)

439 I think all you people give a shit about is blaming someone else.
Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 10:43 AM (TULs6)

No, what I'm trying to do is communicate a straightforward message:the Republic is facing an existential threat.To defeat this threat, we must put aside essentially minor disagreements and form a unified front in order to give the Republican Party the strength of its base. If we don't, we lose.
That's it, that's all.

Posted by: troyriser at December 21, 2012 11:08 AM (vtiE6)

440 Some points:
1. Boehner is an idiot. He got himself in this mess by not forcing the issue on spending when he caved on the debt ceiling deal last year. They should have never raised the debt ceiling and forced the spending cuts.
2. Republicans are idiots when they didn't make the Bush tax cuts permanent (Thank you idiot John McCain). Had they made them permanent, it would haveforced the Dems into being the tax raisers. Now it looks like the Repubs are responsible for raising taxes.
3. The Dems were never going to agree to any kind of a deal. They want the higher taxes for everyone and cuts to military spending. They just want to blame the Republicans.
4. Based on point 3, Boehner is an idiot -part 2. Boehner should have never started "negotiating" with the President. He should have passed legislation making the Bush tax cuts permanent and left town.
5. So now were going to go back to the Cliton tax rates that the Dems love so much and that was responsible for the great 90s economy. Repubs need to make sure that everyone understands this and makes the Dems own it. We'll see.

Posted by: Randy at December 21, 2012 11:08 AM (u2PES)

441 This was FUBAR from the start. Boehner started by negotiating Obama with. Maybe he should have started by negotiating with the Republicans in the house, then with the democrats, passed a bill, negotiated with the Senate and the bill they passed be signed or vetoed by Obama.

If vetoed, Boehner could negotiate to overide and send to the Senate to negotiate to overide. If there are no votes anywhere along the way there is no bill anyway.

He was worried about the optics of getting a deal when he should be worried about following the process and letting the optics reveal the way government is supposed to work.

But no, he went for the back room grand bargain with TFG where the JEF could be as silly as he wants and let Reid and Pelosi cloud the water on the side line.

But don't worry about Boehner. After not having the votes for Plan B, he went home and slept like a baby. Or he should have, since he was so non-chalant with the re-election of the Marxist who is bent upon destroying our country and our way of life.

Posted by: Minuteman at December 21, 2012 11:12 AM (qs9G3)

442 Me thinks Speaker Boehner's time at the helm has come and gone. If he throws his hat in, Paul Ryan will be the next Speaker of the House.

Posted by: Manolo at December 21, 2012 11:14 AM (aO1W9)

443
No, what I'm trying to do is communicate a straightforward message:the Republic is facing an existential threat.To defeat this threat, we must put aside essentially minor disagreements and form a unified front in order to give the Republican Party the strength of its base. If we don't, we lose.

Unity = we win, disunity = we lose.

It must be nice living in whatever fantasy reality you like. Mine says if we wear pink hats we win. Only pink hats can save the union.

What the hell does a posture vote matter?

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 11:16 AM (TULs6)

444 Ignoring the good and bad of passing "Plan B" for a moment, did Boehner really think that after jamming up three conservative members on committer assignments was going to gain him the votes of the conservative caucus? He should have been kissing their ass (or waiting until after the vote he needed them on to screw them over). This makes sense, how, exactly?

Posted by: ejo at December 21, 2012 11:17 AM (GXvSO)

445
when tax rates increase with no offsetting changes to the tax code that is a tax increase.
if tax rates retrun to prior levels (and thereby increase for those formerly paying taxes)that could serve to focus all taxpayers on spending
entitlements will not be cut by sequestration, but sequestration will result in a requirement for immediate reductions in discretionary spending including defense appropriations; a 50/50 proposal
the entitlement reform proposals amount to a tax increase for nominally wealthy american tax payers; tax increases borne by a narrow segment of the tax paying population

Posted by: wm flip at December 21, 2012 11:23 AM (lB/5N)

446 1. Boehner is an idiot. He got himself in this mess by not forcing the issue on spending when he caved on the debt ceiling deal last year. They should have never raised the debt ceiling and forced the spending cuts.

---

IIRC a lot of that had to do with positioning GOP for POTUS election.

Posted by: Y-not at December 21, 2012 11:28 AM (5H6zj)

447 What these dingbats did was force Republicans next year to cut a deal with Democrats, so we'll get a more "liberal" tax code as a consequence.

Obama will likely get everything he wants next year. Hell, the top tax rates may exceed what they were under Clinton.

As member of the 1% and a business owner who earns around $600k a year, these purist TeaTards that joined left-wing Democrats to defeat this didn't help me at all. The just slit my throat.

The Republican party has to be a middle-class party, and making everyones' tax rates go up because you want to protect a sliver of a percent that could care less is going to make most Americans run into the arms of Democrats.

Plan B would have been real cover and would have been a united front that killed have destroyed Obama's ridiculous assertion that the GOP only cares about millionaires and billionaires at the expense of the middle class.

Posted by: McAdams at December 21, 2012 11:29 AM (kQLBd)

448 Posted by: troyriser at December 21, 2012 10:56 AM (vtiE6)

So, it is your position that McCain and Romney won?

Posted by: Dr. Eviler at December 21, 2012 11:30 AM (VtutD)

449 445 Ignoring the good and bad of passing "Plan B" for a moment, did Boehner really think that after jamming up three conservative members on committer assignments was going to gain him the votes of the conservative caucus?
----
Which members were part of Huelskamp's caucus? Because there were 21 defectors on the vote they held yesterday (on the spending reduction bill), which passed anyway, and some key conservatives voted with Boehner.

Frankly, Huelskamp is not someone I consider to be a leader of conservatives. I doubt he had all conservatives in his camp. I'd like to see a list of who was in his coalition.

Posted by: Y-not at December 21, 2012 11:30 AM (5H6zj)

450
What these dingbats did was force Republicans next year to cut a deal with Democrats, so we'll get a more "liberal" tax code as a consequence.

Obama will likely get everything he wants next year. Hell, the top tax rates may exceed what they were under Clinton.



Bull. Shit.

That was going to happen anyway. How did "these dingbats" do that??? Harry Reid was not going to vote to save 98% of the tax cuts.

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 11:33 AM (TULs6)

451 Conservatives should vote to end the payroll tax holiday and against the increase in tax rates. If you can't figure that out, you're not thinking too hard, Gabe. The payroll tax holiday just exacerbates the entitlement problem. It can't, and shouldn't have, go until the whole system is reformed. Giving a little on the other side to Obama and his crew is like giving a little of your hand to a python: It's not gonna end well!

Posted by: John Casteel at December 21, 2012 11:34 AM (kr7R4)

452 You people are all insane.

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 11:35 AM (TULs6)

453 Bull. Shit.

That was going to happen anyway.
How did "these dingbats" do that??? Harry Reid was not going to vote to
save 98% of the tax cuts.

Posted by: Entropy

Then Democrats would own it. Now we own the tax increases.

What the public will see is that the Republican House was willing to throw everyone under the bridge to protect a few millionaires.

I could completely understand rejecting a deal that actually raised taxes on the top, but all this did was extend current rates to as many people as possible. In two weeks, everyone's taxes go up.

Low taxes for the rich is never going to be a popular political position. We lost an election mainly on that concept. If Republicans could even symbolically keep taxes the same rate for 99.8% of taxpayers, I would call that an enormous victory despite how the election turned out for the cause of lower taxes.


Posted by: McAdams at December 21, 2012 11:42 AM (kQLBd)

454 The Mayans were totally right.

Posted by: John Boehner at December 21, 2012 11:44 AM (+GpbP)

455 Boenher needs to go, felt that since he became Speaker and 1st thing broke his "Pledge to America". As for your article calling shame down on the Republicans for sticking to a promise, up yours! I'm sick of politicians not sticking to their word and I am not going to pig pile on Congressmen who try to hold to their promises.

Obama was going to win this regardless, at least this way we do not have the congressional equivalent of a "read my lips" moment. Calling my congressman and thanking him today! Now let Obama own the fiscal cliff and what comes after. Let it burn.

Posted by: Evan Maughan at December 21, 2012 11:48 AM (MlWn9)

456 Gabriel Malor

"We can mitigate the coming disaster, even if we can't avoid it entirely.
We have both a constitutional and moral duty to mitigate it. I will not
surrender on this."

I disagree on both points. I do not believe that we can mitigate the coming disaster. The Democrats in the Senate have a legal obligation to pass a budget every year but they have not done so. Secretary of the Interior Salazar has been ordered by the courts to issue drilling permits in the Gulf of Mexico but he refuses to do so. Secretary of State Clinton will not testify under oath about Benghazi. And if that parade of Democrats ignoring the law is not enough, look at Eric Holder's shenanigans at the Justice Department. The Progressives in the Obama Administration are going to do what they want and the media will never report on it honestly.

We have no constitutional or moral duty to prevent the people who voted to reelect the worst President in my lifetime from experiencing the full effect of their vote or decision to stay home.

In any event, I don't think that we can do much to mitigate the coming disaster so I suggest that your rant against fellow Republicans is not particularly helpful.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at December 21, 2012 11:49 AM (31Nrp)

457
Then Democrats would own it.

Christ on a cracker you're delusional.

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 11:51 AM (TULs6)

458
The difference between Plan B as republicans describe it, and Plan B as democrats describe it (and why they won't vote for it) is 2%. A 2% difference.

Own it my fat ass! Democrats are going to say republicans are holding tax cuts hostage for the upper 3%.

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 11:52 AM (TULs6)

459
What the public will see is that the Republican House was willing to throw everyone under the bridge to protect a few millionaires.

Quit it with the newspeak. Lets call facts facts.

Plan B is the republicans willing to cut tax hikesonly if the top 3% don't get hikes either.

You say they're going to say that about us if we demand 100% cuts.

But are you really trying to tell me they won't be able to do that if we only demand 98% cuts?

If that's what you're saying, I want you to tell me whether you're really fucking gullible, or just think I am.

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 11:55 AM (TULs6)

460
If Republicans could even symbolically keep taxes the same rate for 99.8% of taxpayers, I would call that an enormous victory despite how the election turned out for the cause of lower taxes.

What the hell is "if"?

They cannot. That was preposterously unrealistic.

You're complaining about the optics of protecting the rich, but then you turn around same paragraph and say you want 99.8% of the tax cuts.

You're willing tohike taxes on the top 0.2% only? And you thinkyou can beat Democrats on board with that?

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 11:58 AM (TULs6)

461
AAAAAH!

Really people. Read yourselves.

0.2%. That's going to give us the 'optics' that stops the democrats from calling us hostage takers for the 1%?

How, because they start calling us hostage takers for the 0.2%? The top fifth of the top 1%?

How can we all be this fucking stupid? These things don't even PRETEND to add up.

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 12:00 PM (TULs6)

462 Posted by: troyriser at December 21, 2012 10:56 AM (vtiE6) So, it is your position that McCain and Romney won?
Posted by: Dr. Eviler at December 21, 2012 11:30 AM (VtutD)

Sorry, I thought you were using the term 'losers' pejoratively, not literally. Yes, they lost to Obama, which to McCain meant going against a young, charismatic senator seemingly destined to become our first Black president, equipped with unlimited campaign funds and the complete, unabashed support of the mainstream media, and which to Romney meant going against an incumbent President armed with an unlimited campaign funds and the complete, unabashed support of the mainstream media. In either case, it is highly unlikely any other GOP primary candidates in 2008 or 2012 could've beaten Obama.

Whatever you libertarian types might think, Dr. Ron Paul, author of racist newsletters and no legislation, starof an Alex Jones conspiracy documentary, and believer in the evils of water fluoridation and secret Illuminati-sponsored spider-goat DNA hybridization experiments, never stood a chance.

Posted by: troyriser at December 21, 2012 12:01 PM (vtiE6)

463 459

The difference between Plan B as republicans describe it, and Plan B
as democrats describe it (and why they won't vote for it) is 2%. A 2%
difference.

Own it my fat ass! Democrats are going to say republicans are holding tax cuts hostage for the upper 3%.

Posted by: Entropy

That's a much harder argument to make for Democrats, and most Americans won't buy it.

If you say "we want to keep everyones' tax rates the same that are earning under a million dollars" it makes the Democrats look like the unreasonable ones.

Tell me this, if it was such a raw deal for conservatives, why then did Democrats not support it? When you see something like 10 Republicans join 100% of Democrats to defeat something, that's usually a sign conservatives are getting their throat slit.

Posted by: McAdams at December 21, 2012 12:02 PM (kQLBd)

464
You're a really confused individual.

Why didn't democrats support it? Because it's not enough you mook. It's not going to actually HAPPEN.

How is 3% much harder than 1%? Who tells you this bullshit? Where do you get these ideas?

You do realize democrats control the Senate, right???

But you think the optics of protecting the top 3% (or in your case, 0.3%) will save you from being the party of the top 3%? WTF?

Posted by: Entropy at December 21, 2012 12:07 PM (TULs6)

465 Only inside the Beltway could a meaningless vote on a meaningless measure be described as averting or causing anything.

Boner should have walked away on Nov. 8 and said call me when the dimocruds make a serious proposal. Serious proposal being defined as one approved by the Senate.

Posted by: Call me Ishmael at December 21, 2012 12:08 PM (3xuEM)

466 Posted by: troyriser at December 21, 2012 12:01 PM (vtiE6)

Not a Ron Paul fan either. I just get tired of hearing how we can't win unless we select a moderate. Bob Dole, McCain and Romney. All are admirable men, but not conservative.

Posted by: Dr. Eviler at December 21, 2012 12:08 PM (VtutD)

467 Very pleased with and proud of Gowdy. He pours the appropriate kind of contempt on the ridiculous faux "fiscal cliff" silliness coming from the media and their willing enablers in politics.

RE: "That's what happens. A few fringe conservatives revolt and the rest of the GOP caucus -- a majority of GOP members, I might add -- then has to turn to the Democrats for votes. Which means further compromises."

Well, no it doesn't. It doesn't mean "further compromises" at all -- except, of course, only so far as the non-conservative Republicans *wish* to "compromise." Another rather simple option is to do what conservatives think ought to be done anyway, which is to calmly pass tax cuts for all, cut spending, then go home for Christmas.

*That's* what *ought* to happen when "fringe conservatives" [read: "conservatives"] revolt in the Republican Party and actually stand by their own party's platform.

Thing is . . . the Republican Party ought to be thinking about one thing and one thing only right now, and that is the *recovery of its own values and from that, its brand*. Without the recovery of that brand the Republican Party will not be considered a reasonable choice by both conservatives *and* many moderates.

We all know where that got us at the last election.

Back in 2009 and 2010, the Republican Party was on its way to recovery of that brand and to giving citizens an option other than "more government spending." But -- once again -- they lost that recovery right after the American people overwhelmingly voted them into the House. For two dreadful years, the Republicans in the House have caved and declined to battle, and refused to define clearly what they are for and what they are against.

Maybe they'll talk some sense into themselves at some point. At least we have some 30 or so conservatives there. That's good. Sad that it's not many more.

Posted by: Sarah at December 21, 2012 12:14 PM (fejYH)

468 phoenixgirl: "so gabe you are for lower taxes for you but not for me? that's the point you'd sell out...when it affects you.....?"

Brilliantly succinct. To accept the inequity is to accept, ultimately, class warfare... the hammer of the Socialist/Communist. Will not do even for "millionaires and billionaires." I'll wear the "purist" label with pride though I'll never be either a "millionaire" or "billionaire".

LIB. Americans voted for it; now everyone, including non-"millionaires and billionaires," can pony up. Consider it a teachable moment for an increasingly stupid and willfully ignorant constituency.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at December 21, 2012 12:17 PM (eHIJJ)

469 Boner should have walked away on Nov. 8 and said
call me when the dimocruds make a serious proposal. Serious proposal
being defined as one approved by the Senate.

Posted by: Call me Ishmael

The Constitution is very clear revenue bills must originate in the House. Considering we control the House, isn't that our duty?

Entropy:
So what you're saying is Harry Reid now gets to dictate what the Republican House can and cannot pass?

If Harry Reid says it's dead, might as well go home. Funny, Democrats never govern that way.


Posted by: McAdams at December 21, 2012 12:20 PM (kQLBd)

470 "Equally obvious is that any deal made between Boehner and Obama to avert the fiscal cliff will have to be worse -- that is, less conservative -- than Plan B because Boehner is going to have to get Democratic members to vote for it.

That's what happens. A few fringe conservatives revolt and the rest of the GOP caucus -- a majority of GOP members, I might add -- then has to turn to the Democrats for votes. Which means further compromises. "

You're one of those people who lets teens drink in the safety of your home, so they don't get irresponsible in some parking lot, aren't you?

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at December 21, 2012 12:25 PM (3GtyG)

471 "What these dingbats did was force Republicans next year to cut a deal with Democrats, so we'll get a more "liberal" tax code as a consequence.

Obama will likely get everything he wants next year. Hell, the top tax rates may exceed what they were under Clinton."

Obama and 100 Senators can't force the House to pass anything. When it comes to taxes, they can't even bring the subject up. Tax bills must originate in the House; any Republican Senator can defeat a tax bill on that as a point of order.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at December 21, 2012 12:28 PM (3GtyG)

472 "To defeat this threat, we must put aside essentially minor disagreements and form a unified front"

By passing the Pelosi tax plan. Win by surrendering. Got it.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 21, 2012 12:33 PM (w9BpZ)

473 Mr. Malor:

We told you what we wanted and you refused to listen. If you act on that refusal, and do something opposite, that is YOUR CHOICE. Nobody forced you into that opposite choice. Certainly not us, because we told you to do otherwise. I have no duty to prefer your stubborness to my own; I will not accept blame for your reckless capitulations; I will not stay silent in the face of your failure to take responsibility for your own acts.

Try doing what you want to do, because you chose to do it, and proclaiming your behavior is due to your own choices. Man up.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at December 21, 2012 12:34 PM (3GtyG)

474
The Constitution is very clear revenue bills must originate in the House. Considering we control the House, isn't that our duty?

Entropy:
So what you're saying is Harry Reid now gets to dictate what the Republican House can and cannot pass?

If Harry Reid says it's dead, might as well go home. Funny, Democrats never govern that way.


Posted by: McAdams at December 21, 2012 12:20 PM (kQLBd)

Yes, Reid can choose never to bring a bill up to a vote. So yes, he can effectively veto the House. That's what he's been doing since 2010.

Posted by: KG at December 21, 2012 12:41 PM (p7BzH)

475
House cons blew the GOP's chance to save face and pin the blame on Dhimmis?
The GOP just lost the Presidency to a Shinola Spokesmodel, the lamest, gayest excuse for an Exec in American history.
There is no face to save.

Posted by: gary gulrud at December 21, 2012 12:43 PM (uv0Aw)

476 Obama and 100 Senators can't force the House to pass
anything. When it comes to taxes, they can't even bring the subject
up. Tax bills must originate in the House; any Republican Senator can
defeat a tax bill on that as a point of order.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz

You talk like Republicans have some 60 seat majority next year in the House. It's actually razor thin.

If next year a bill comes up that lower taxes for those making under $250k (about 95% of Americans) but raises them for those making over a million dollars (around .2% of Americans, most of them liberal) you really don't think Democrats are going to have that much trouble finding 9 or 10 Republicans to vote for something like that when the middle class is screaming because their taxes shot up? It's not exactly a far-fetched scenario.

My guess is in a few months, Obama will get 99% of what he wants and he got the added bonus of looking like he's fighting for the middle class by cutting their taxes while the GOP was willing to let everyone's taxes go up so they could make some ideologically pure point.

Conservatives have got to learn to play the game of politics if they're actually interested in winning elections and governing. We're never going to get 100% of what we want 100% of the time, especially when we lose elections. That's fantasy unicorn bullshit.

If even theoretically you could lock in 99.8% of tax rates from increasing in two weeks but you pass it up because it's not 100% pure, you're a dingbat that needs to come back to the real world.

Posted by: McAdams at December 21, 2012 12:43 PM (kQLBd)

477 I love how the "non fringe" conservatives, continually throw the rest of us under the bus, claiming we won't vote, that we won't compromise, etc etc etc. I pulled the fucking lever for Romney. I pulled the fucking lever for McCain. I pulled the fucking lever for Dole. I pulled the fucking lever for Bush II twice and Bush I twice. The only time I pulled the lever without compromising was Reagan 84. I've never stayed home, despite the fact that the guy I voted for was never going to live up to the ideal. Some of them were very far from the ideal, but I voted for them nonetheless. And yet still, every fucking day, I'm the bad guy in the party and now we're going to look bad to America.
WTF, seriously. Nothing the GOP does is going to win with the press short of out-Demming the Dems. I repeat, Nothing the GOP does is going to win with the press short of out-Demming the Dems. And if the GOP gets run out of power in 2014, well, then so be it. There is a cost that America has to pay for the decisions it makes. That cost has been kicked down the road for long enough. America will not change until the reality of those costs sinks in. Then, and only then, can we get real change. You think a Republican president and anything less than 60 seats in the Senate will be able to do anything? And guess what, assume that the GOP controls all three branches but doesn't have 60 seats in the Senate. Assume that they pass all these laws that will save this country from fiscal collapse. Imagine that whoever the Dem leader is filibusters every last bill that comes up. We'll still be bombarded nightly with the media narrative that Republicans are responsible for failing to right the ship, because that's what they do. That's all they live for. And that's in a near perfect scenario. Now look at what we have today. You think passing plan B would be presented as the GOP doing what's best for the country? That they compromised and gave Obama what he wanted? That they were bipartisan? Bullshit. Bullshit Bullshit. Never going to happen. Let. It. Burn.

Posted by: Jon in TX at December 21, 2012 01:20 PM (PYAXX)

478 "If even theoretically you could lock in 99.8% of tax rates from increasing in two weeks but you pass it up because it's not 100% pure, you're a dingbat that needs to come back to the real world."

If your idea is to do what all Dems and 10 Republicans would do, so you get the glory of it, I suggest you switch parties.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at December 21, 2012 01:26 PM (3GtyG)

479 Me thinks Speaker Boehner's time at the helm has come and gone. If he throws his hat in, Paul Ryan will be the next Speaker of the House.

Another fail. Check Ryan's voting record. He's no fiscal dynamo.

Posted by: RushBabe at December 21, 2012 02:14 PM (tQHzJ)

480 troyriser

"Cut that shit out and either help save the country or get the fuck out of the way."

OK. You win. The Republican Party belongs to you and people like you, not people like me just like the country belongs to people who think Obama ought to have another term because he is so awesome. You win. I will get out of the way.

I am happy to stop contributing, volunteering, ringing door bells and spending election day poll watching in a black precinct to keep them from stuffing the ballot box too much. It will give me more time to do other things which may be necessary to survive in the coming years.

Lots of luck saving the country, asshole.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at December 22, 2012 10:16 AM (31Nrp)






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