House Voting on Bills to Avoid the Fiscal Cliff;
Spending Bill Passes 215-209;
Still Whipping Votes for Plan B;
8:05pm - Plan B Vote Cancelled

So we had two things to get done this evening related to the fiscal cliff. The House GOP just barely managed to get the Spending Reduction Act through in the face of uniform Democrat opposition, 215-209. Also, 21 Republicans voted with the Democrats.

These defectors insist that their conservative principles require that they vote against a spending bill with $242 billion in spending cuts over and above the sequester. I'm sure the White House thanks them for their support. The defectors also voted against cuts to the Obamacare slush fund, the failed HAMP mortgage reform effort, food stamps reforms, and tax credit reforms.

A vote on the second bill, what we've been calling 'Plan B' is to occur sometime soon, but it seems like Speaker Boehner isn't sure he's got the votes. Plan B prevents tax hikes for 99.81% of taxpayers, has permanent death tax relief, a permanent AMT fix, and permanent reforms to the marriage penalty.

Again, a group of Truuuuue Cons say they'd rather taxes go up for everyone than vote for this bill.

Update 8:00pm While we're waiting on the House GOP members to pull their heads out of their hindquarters, let's flashback to almost the same time last year, when I wrote a post entitled "House Republicans' Christmas Present to Obama."

If you'll recall, the Senate had passed a two-month payroll tax holiday extension, but when it came time to pass it in the House, the Truuuue Cons decided they wanted a full year extension. And if they weren't going to get their full year payroll tax holiday then they'd settle for no payroll tax holiday at all. It was a matter of "principle," you see?

They lasted two days before the enormity of their stupidity caused them to reevaluate their "principles" and vote for the bill. During that time, however, the Democrats got to demagogue the stuffing out of Republicans for causing a tax hike on millions of Americans. Here's part of what I wrote (but go back and read it all):

Honestly, I'm still waiting to hear what the House GOP thinks it's doing; how their version of the one-year extension is so necessary that they will forgo a two-month extension (which was going to become a full-year extension in February anyway) with a pipeline concession and instead settle for nothing at all. Because that's what they're going to get. Obama and the Democrats are going to laugh their way into the new year while the House GOP insists that it's standing on principle.

Same Shit, Different Day, as the old saying goes. They're doing it again.

The GOP leadership team is still whipping votes to get the defectors back in line.

Update 8:05pm Okay, Speaker Boehner called it off. There won't be a Plan B vote tonight, "The House did not take up the tax measure today because it did not have sufficient support from our members to pass."

Shame. I certainly hope they circle back to this.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at 07:34 PM



Comments

1

STOMP goes Malor.

For a wonky procedural BS post.

All heart, man, all heart.

Posted by: imp at December 20, 2012 07:35 PM (UaxA0)

2 First three times in a row. That's got to be good for somethin'

Posted by: Tobacco Road at December 20, 2012 07:35 PM (4Mv1T)

3 shit

Posted by: Tobacco Road at December 20, 2012 07:35 PM (4Mv1T)

4 3rd

Posted by: Tobacco Road at December 20, 2012 07:36 PM (4Mv1T)

5 Seems to be some post-stomping going on

Posted by: boulder hobo at December 20, 2012 07:37 PM (QTHTd)

6

That's what you get TR, for being a juvenile jackass.

Posted by: imp at December 20, 2012 07:38 PM (UaxA0)

7 Ture cons? Names, we need names.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at December 20, 2012 07:38 PM (jTKU5)

8 When, where, and how do the cuts kick in?

Posted by: Adriane at December 20, 2012 07:38 PM (gh+mp)

9 whoa what happened to the Jager post

Posted by: jeanne at December 20, 2012 07:38 PM (hs27L)

10 Never stomp drinking threads .


Never .

Posted by: Bill D. Cat at December 20, 2012 07:39 PM (M9QXG)

11 Stomping all over the damn place.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 20, 2012 07:39 PM (GEICT)

12 Four new threads up!

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at December 20, 2012 07:39 PM (jTKU5)

13 CRAFT BEER

Posted by: jeanne at December 20, 2012 07:39 PM (hs27L)

14 haha the president put a plan up for shared responsibility blah blah

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:40 PM (nqBYe)

15 The "philosophically pure" conservatives who oppose Plan B because it doesn't stop taxes from being raised for those earning more than $1M are fools. They coming right out saying they are willing to let tax hikes hit most Americans in order to quixotically fight for millionaires and billionaires.

If Plan B fails the Dems and the media will declare that the GOP has thrown the Middle Class under the bus in order to "protect the 1%"

If Plan B fails, then the GOP may have just conceded the '14 elections to the Democrats.

This will not end well...

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 20, 2012 07:40 PM (XvHmy)

16 I posted a great comment on the bartending thread and now the thread is gone. What happened?

Posted by: DC Zombie at December 20, 2012 07:40 PM (EZ3C3)

17 President cut 1.2 trillion dollars on what?

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:40 PM (nqBYe)

18 President cut 1.2 trillion dollars on what?
Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:40 PM (nqBYe)If he cut anything, it would be defense.

Posted by: Meremortal, time to slutdrop the GOPe at December 20, 2012 07:41 PM (jTKU5)

19 John Boehner is mostly lucid when he's Jägerbombed.

Posted by: Fritz at December 20, 2012 07:41 PM (K/NRd)

20 Well... the bill is 69 pages. Need to read ...

Posted by: Adriane at December 20, 2012 07:42 PM (gh+mp)

21 shift to republican plan b. would give millionaires a 50 k tax advantage but in plan b middle class will be hit re: 1,000 more peer 50 k

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:42 PM (nqBYe)

22 End of the world thread, chick fight thread, drinking thread, and now comes Gabe with a totally boring budget procedure thread. Boooooo!

Posted by: Wooga at December 20, 2012 07:42 PM (NJeJT)

23 16 I posted a great comment on the bartending thread and now the thread is gone. What happened?

Maybe you sobered up?

Posted by: old grouch at December 20, 2012 07:43 PM (eGXSa)

24 The fag G.O.P. got ambushed with the Super Committee. When L'il Barry got more votes, apparently, than Mitt in November, it was all over for the G.O.P.
It's not your money any more.
This is the result of a spending problem.
Any fool knows that when you l o w e r marginal tax rates, revenue increases.
The fag G.O.P. is toast. We just have to wait for them to figure it out.
It's kind of like choosing the right gun to hunt Cape Buffalo (which I've not done). You want one that will not only kill the buff, but discourage it as well. We're the buff. We're dead, we just haven't keeled over, yet.

Posted by: Thorvald at December 20, 2012 07:43 PM (1V6Pv)

25 Plan B has permanent death tax relief, a permanent AMT fix, and permanent reforms to the marriage penalty.

Dudes. Take this deal. I'm tempted to ring up Jared Polis and ask him if he's tempted to take this deal.

Posted by: boulder hobo at December 20, 2012 07:43 PM (QTHTd)

26 President cut 1.2 trillion dollars on what?

His latest outlandish proposal.

Posted by: t-bird at December 20, 2012 07:44 PM (FcR7P)

27 Meremortal yes cuts to military. that's all i heard, how long to cut wasn't said. and to anything other than wha was entioned as a cut military.

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:45 PM (nqBYe)

28 >>>The "philosophically pure" conservatives who oppose Plan B because it
doesn't stop taxes from being raised for those earning more than $1M are
fools. They coming right out saying they are willing to let tax hikes
hit most Americans in order to quixotically fight for millionaires and
billionaires.



If Plan B fails the Dems and the media will declare that the GOP has
thrown the Middle Class under the bus in order to "protect the 1%"


And yet there are many here who would cheer them on if they did that.

Which is a big part of the problem.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 07:45 PM (/COnL)

29 http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:45 PM (nqBYe)

30 @edatpost When asked whether House will vote on #PlanB tonight, Rep. Kay Granger (R-Texas) nodded her head no.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 07:45 PM (YjDyJ)

31 If Plan B loses, The GOP will have handed Obama a gift.

Posted by: Echo at December 20, 2012 07:45 PM (tLNEC)

32 @ 28 Jeff B
Many Conservatives love the purity of defeat.

Posted by: Echo at December 20, 2012 07:46 PM (tLNEC)

33 Some members apparently cannot decide how to vote, including Rep. Tim Scott.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 07:46 PM (YjDyJ)

34 ryan speaking, failure to adress crisis, every american wil l get hurt and Next generation.


Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:47 PM (nqBYe)

35

compromising with Democrats is always the wrong thing to do


Posted by: soothsayer at December 20, 2012 07:47 PM (052zE)

36 ryan-speaking of fraud etc..

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:47 PM (nqBYe)

37 @ 14 The Political Hat

These same Conservatives are defending Millionaires who voted for Obama. Talk about being stupid.

Posted by: Echo at December 20, 2012 07:47 PM (tLNEC)

38 Echo, I wrote practically the same thing almost exactly a year ago when Truuue Cons in the house did the same thing over the payroll tax holiday.

http://goo.gl/S9vQl

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 20, 2012 07:48 PM (jZUEZ)

39 Whoops, wrong link. Here: http://goo.gl/YtNFd

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 20, 2012 07:48 PM (jZUEZ)

40 To be honest, I think that the Bush tax cuts just took too many people off of the rolls. Some taxes need to go up.

(a) It really doesn't matter, this is just to call the Democrats' bluff and, frankly, the handwringing over it.

(b) There are some actual politics involved here. A bunch of these truuuuue cons were the ones who were ousted from some of their committee positions. The've been on MSNBC today trashing Boehner.

Rule #1 of conservatism: Don't use the Left to trash your own side. Disagree, even vote the other way, but don't run to Martin Bashir.

These assholes are taking this opportunity to overthrow Boehner. But they're just making themselves weaker in the process.

If you're going to be principled, be principled. Vote for spending cuts.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 20, 2012 07:49 PM (xSegX)

41 ryan; latest pres proposal raise taxes raise spending,

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:49 PM (nqBYe)

42 To all the fake conservatives: the government has no claim on my fortune. Zero. Zip. Nada.
They derive their just powers from the consent of the governed.
You subway-riding, Loyalist Remnant, Northeasterners can just move to France. You'll find it more congenial, mon amis. (You Californians don't have to move anywhere. You already live in Alta California.)

Posted by: Thorvald at December 20, 2012 07:49 PM (1V6Pv)

43 Somebody email me when the Jagerbomb post is back up. I'll be over on Hot Air until then.

Posted by: DC Zombie at December 20, 2012 07:49 PM (EZ3C3)

44 Again, a group of Truuuuue Cons say they'd rather taxes go up for everyone than vote for this bill.


****

Perhaps they have been listening to the calls to LIB.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 20, 2012 07:49 PM (piMMO)

45 And, Gabe, don't tell me you don't know how to spell "whipped".

Posted by: AmishDude at December 20, 2012 07:49 PM (xSegX)

46 When Debbie Wuzzaman Schultz is getting to your right on taxes, you know you are doing something wrong.

Posted by: Heywood Broun at December 20, 2012 07:50 PM (i/BcK)

47 And "whipping".

Racist.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 20, 2012 07:50 PM (xSegX)

48 Gave, if/when you get a chance, please post a list of the "True Conservatives." I'm sure we'd all like to single them out for a special show of appreciation next year.

Posted by: John W. at December 20, 2012 07:50 PM (K7KaF)

49 I love how Malor and people like JeffB. think they're the realistic ones, they're the pragmatists by supporting a bill that will never be law. How dare those "true cons" not take part in this political theater!!!!

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 07:50 PM (GZitp)

50 @ChadPergram Cantor on whether they would come back and vote tonight: "We'll see, we'll see." #fiscalcliff

‏@BobCusack Last time Boehner pulled a debt-related bill from the floor was in July 2011. Bill was changed and later passed.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 07:50 PM (YjDyJ)

51 youtube seems to be down

Posted by: boulder hobo at December 20, 2012 07:50 PM (QTHTd)

52

/jerkoff hand gesture @ "true coons"

oh, and that's racist, btw

Posted by: soothsayer at December 20, 2012 07:51 PM (/eLjI)

53 True Cons?

You mean like Hugh Hewitt?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 20, 2012 07:52 PM (FaqTv)

54 we should have tazers everytime a Representative lies about what's going on

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:52 PM (nqBYe)

55

/jerking off hand gesture @ this post

Posted by: soothsayer at December 20, 2012 07:52 PM (s+8Vv)

56 The "philosophically pure" conservatives who oppose Plan B because it
doesn't stop taxes from being raised for those earning more than $1M are
fools. They coming right out saying they are willing to let tax hikes
hit most Americans in order to quixotically fight for millionaires and
billionaires.


Look, the whole thing is symbolic because Reid won't take it up. So vote for it.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 20, 2012 07:52 PM (xSegX)

57 I posted a great comment on the bartending thread and now the thread is gone. What happened?


****

Give it a little while. It will be back.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 20, 2012 07:52 PM (piMMO)

58
Most of the people who oppose Plan B sat on their ass and didn't vote for Romney ie they are fine with Obama.

Posted by: Dick Nixon at December 20, 2012 07:53 PM (VrVBw)

59 supporting a bill that will never be
law. How dare those "true cons" not take part in this political
theater!!!!


Only four exclamation points? You need to add some more, and maybe a "1" or two for effect. Hell, maybe a "3".

Posted by: boulder hobo at December 20, 2012 07:53 PM (QTHTd)

60 6 That's what you get TR, for being a juvenile jackass. Posted by: imp

I do NOT have to take that shit from you. If I wanted to hear that kind of crap I'd just go talk to my teenagers.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at December 20, 2012 07:53 PM (4Mv1T)

61 glad he slapped down von hollon.

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:54 PM (nqBYe)

62 Who gives a shit, LIB. It's going to burn anyway.

Posted by: Samuel Adams at December 20, 2012 07:54 PM (ZOf1l)

63
now let's get back to discussing the stopping power of 9mm rounds

true or false?

.357 > 9mm > .38

in order of stopping power

Posted by: soothsayer at December 20, 2012 07:54 PM (g5El3)

64 von hollen again says Presdents plan ? 1 . 2 trillion in cuts but does not expound on where

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:55 PM (nqBYe)

65 so Pelosi' plan wasn't a serious budget as this woma said about plan b?

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:56 PM (nqBYe)

66 Isn't this all kabuki considering that the Senate won't take it up?

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. We're not worthy. at December 20, 2012 07:56 PM (Gk3SS)

67 "Again, a group of Truuuuue Cons say they'd rather taxes go up for everyone than vote for this bill."

Quote me the guy who says that.

That's your twisted spin on people who honor a commitment to voters not to support a tax hike.

Your crew, the center-left Republicans, set up this fiscal cliff to escape immediate bad press.
Your crew put a sunset on the Bush tax cuts.
Your crew refused to touch it all year because it somehow distracted from the presidential race.
Your crew on the one hand insists this bill is nothing but posturing, and on the other, includes class-warfare tax hikes just so everybody knows the GOP voted for class warfare tax hikes, as if that's a great thing for the image.

Having had it all your way so long, I refuse to take any blame for having the integrity to point out the Emperor is naked.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 07:57 PM (3GtyG)

68 saying don't use sandy and newton in politics

while they are using it to tell republicans to do what they want, now

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:58 PM (nqBYe)

69 ?????????????

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at December 20, 2012 07:58 PM (GBDbf)

70
Generally true, soothsayer. Although the weight and composition of the bullet and shot placement make a difference. A well placed .38can have the same stopping power as a well placed .357 round.

Posted by: DC Zombie at December 20, 2012 07:58 PM (EZ3C3)

71 alex, gah they are unconscionable.

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 07:58 PM (nqBYe)

72 @49:"How dare those "true cons" not take part in this political theater!!!!
Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 07:50 PM (GZitp)
---

They have the media. This means we have no option to not take part. Whoever they are, no matter their actual reasons, the media will use their numbers and affiliation to say that opposition to the GOP bill was "bipartisan", and then clamor for a bill that is further Left.

Posted by: MSM at December 20, 2012 07:58 PM (Y5I9o)

73 >>>I love how Malor and people like JeffB. think they're the realistic
ones, they're the pragmatists by supporting a bill that will never be
law. How dare those "true cons" not take part in this political
theater!!!!


Really? You're going to tee it up for us this easily? Newsflash: a political realist understands the surpassing, overwhelming importance of political theater to actually achieving the proper results at the end of the game. Only fools think that the so-called "theater" is unimportant -- which is probably why we keep getting flattened as a movement and a party: because far too many conservatives (especially the online variety) believe our ideas and positions simply sell themselves, and disdain the idea of working on crafting the right image and positioning.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 07:58 PM (/COnL)

74 off, damn sock!

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 07:59 PM (Y5I9o)

75 66 Isn't this all kabuki considering that the Senate won't take it up?
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. We're not worthy. at December 20, 2012 07:56 PM (Gk3SS)



We love Boehner, we hate Boehner. Boehner caved and just proposed Pelosi's plan, Boehner's a genius and forcing the Dems hand. This plan is garbage, if you don't vote for it then you're a truuuuue con.

This guy right here. Does. Not. Give. A. Shit.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 20, 2012 07:59 PM (GEICT)

76 I bet a lot of those assholes in congress have to have their batboy tell them each morning what party they belong to.

Posted by: EROWMER at December 20, 2012 07:59 PM (kxlCQ)

77 cantor- if left unchecked Presdients plan will bankrupt our futre.

if we can prevent taxes on going up on most people we ned to do so.

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:00 PM (nqBYe)

78 >>>.357 > 9mm > .38
in order of stopping power

Can we get a shout out for .45ACP?

Posted by: Tobacco Road at December 20, 2012 08:00 PM (4Mv1T)

79 @ 39 Gabriel Malor

You are spot on! If the so called True Cons make us lose, it's time for the rational Right to break with the GOP and form a new Center-Right Party. Many of these true cons are OK with Big Government involved with personal freedom. They are hypocrites.

Keep up the good fight!

Posted by: Echo at December 20, 2012 08:00 PM (tLNEC)

80 This guy right here. Does. Not. Give. A. Shit.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 20, 2012 07:59 PM (GEICT)



I initially typed bukkake which, in retrospect, is more accurate.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. We're not worthy. at December 20, 2012 08:00 PM (Gk3SS)

81 By all that's holy I would have said that obama would get most of the blame if we go over the cliff, but then i thought Romney was a lock to beat obama with 8% unemployment and our foreign policy in chaos and debt skyrocketing?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 08:00 PM (79ueO)

82 True Cons?

You mean like Hugh Hewitt?


True "KHAAAAN"s!

Posted by: t-bird at December 20, 2012 08:01 PM (FcR7P)

83 So, I'm watching Ted right now.

What a stupid, horrible fucking movie.

There's your review. You're welcome.

Posted by: © Sponge at December 20, 2012 08:01 PM (sw9Vn)

84 I don't really see how this makes anything better.

Raising taxes on small business owners (a lot of whom are millionaires) will cause much pain to the economy. As what amounts to our final offer, this is pretty disheartening.

Plus, this is feeding into the lunacy that some people *deserve*to pay in more than others or that raising taxes will a) increase revenue or b) solve our problems.

I suppose in rough terms if Obama caves (which I doubt), then Boehner wins a small political victory while the Democrats win on policy. If he doesn't cave (which is likely), then this doesn't really matter too much, although I suppose Republicans can argue that they agreed to Nancy Pelosi's old plan.

What I will say is that it is good that at least the GOP is showing some resolve and initiative. I would guess nobody is really thrilled with this deal but they believe this is the best we can get.

I wish we had tried to aggressively sell our positions, not because it would necessarily be effective, but because the solutions we are offering are necessary. Raising taxes will cause agony and not lowering the deficit will bankrupt us.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:01 PM (uhAkr)

85 Post is updated. I was right last year. I'm write again.

This is what the Let It Burn people (some of them, anyway) wanted. Pass a conservative bill and throw it back in Obama's lap. Leave town and say we did our part. Or we could do nothing. Because the American people are just going to love that when their taxes go up, we did nothing about it.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 20, 2012 08:01 PM (jZUEZ)

86 Republican party is toast anyway. They are now the White Party. Any minority that sides with them is publicly shamed as a race traitor. The only time it's culturally acceptable to be openly racist against a person of color is when they are conservative. So you have a shrinking white population and you have enormous peer pressure on other ethnic groups not to join a party that is seen as belonging to them.

Posted by: Eaton Cox at December 20, 2012 08:01 PM (q177U)

87 The defectors and their rationale... remind me of Sen 'Water tight' Smith asking survivors of Titanic why they couldn't use the water tight compartments to wait for rescue.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:01 PM (NhdPR)

88 @73:Only fools think that the so-called "theater" is unimportant -- which is probably why we keep getting flattened as a movement and a party: because far too many conservatives (especially the online variety) believe our ideas and positions simply sell themselves, and disdain the idea of working on crafting the right image and positioning.
Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 07:58 PM (/COnL)
---

Ka-BAM!

The same goes for conservatives who believe that studying things like "education" and "journalism" is trivial and not worth doing for the "serious and smart" individual. The Left now owns those disciplines lock and key, and they own all the influence that goes with them...

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 08:01 PM (Y5I9o)

89 cantor- President- support these measure or be responsible fro the largest tax hikes in history

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:01 PM (nqBYe)

90 Isn't this all kabuki considering that the Senate won't take it up?

Yes.

Consider it a propaganda move; a means for the Republicans / the House to lay out a few damned good ideas, and to run against the do-nothing Senate.

Even some smart and allegedly pro-business Democrats (i.e., Polis) should be shamed at least into non-opposition to a bill like this.

Posted by: boulder hobo at December 20, 2012 08:02 PM (QTHTd)

91 80
I initially typed bukkake which, in retrospect, is more accurate.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. We're not worthy. at December 20, 2012 08:00 PM (Gk3SS)



Dick? Meet face.


Thanks for playing.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 20, 2012 08:02 PM (GEICT)

92 Gabriel and sometimes you are also right.

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:02 PM (nqBYe)

93 @russellberman House is adjourning until after Christmas, @elwasson reports

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:02 PM (YjDyJ)

94 Hollon, wealthy need to share the burden.

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:02 PM (nqBYe)

95 @73 Get real. "Honey Boo Boo gives her book report of 'The Road to Serfdom'."
Sell what to whom? Tax increases to conservatives? Good luck winning anything.

Posted by: Thorvald at December 20, 2012 08:03 PM (1V6Pv)

96 Shadoobie. You rang?

Posted by: Jagger at December 20, 2012 08:03 PM (NIZHJ)

97
Isn't this all kabuki considering that the Senate won't take it up?


Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. We're not worthy. at December 20, 2012 07:56 PM



Reporters keep talking about Barry vetoing the bill if it passes. I keep yelling at the tv to take a civics class. They never listen.

Posted by: huerfano at December 20, 2012 08:03 PM (bAGA/)

98 So, I'm watching Ted right now.

***

why?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 20, 2012 08:03 PM (piMMO)

99 Levin-President -has too supported spnding cuts!

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:03 PM (nqBYe)

100 Plan B, never heard of it

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at December 20, 2012 08:04 PM (z6gbu)

101 IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!!! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!!

And b

Posted by: Jim in Virginia at December 20, 2012 08:04 PM (GD/vx)

102 Sure would have been interesting to have this fiscal cliff discussion before the election...

Posted by: t-bird at December 20, 2012 08:04 PM (FcR7P)

103 ok i added stuff

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:04 PM (nqBYe)

104 >>>To all the fake conservatives: the government has no claim on my fortune. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Uh-huh. Tell you what: call the IRS and tell them that you're declining to file any returns going forward, and that you're becoming a tax protestor because "the government has no claim on my fortune."

See how many days past the April filing date it takes before your bank accounts are seized and your real property is liened.

Either that, or you can cut the Internet Tough Guy posturing and acknowledge that the government has whatever claim on your fortune it damn well decides it has, at least so long as Constitutional legislation has been passed allowing it. And then realize that it therefore matters very fucking much that we get the right policies put into law, by making sure the voters keep Republicans in a position where they can affect that outcome. A great way to end that is by having the GOP voted out of power in Congress by a horde of angry swing voters (and Republicans too!) who just had their taxes raised and watched the TrueCons of the GOP shoot down a bill that would have stopped it because it didn't also provide relief to the 1%.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 08:04 PM (/COnL)

105 After Sandy Hook to expect the media to get basic civics facts right, wow do not hold breath. Bukake would not be required.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:04 PM (NhdPR)

106 Damn this iPhone!

Posted by: Jim in Virginia at December 20, 2012 08:04 PM (GD/vx)

107 And yet there are many here who would cheer them on if they did that.

Which is a big part of the problem.

Posted by: Jeff B.


Don't be that guy.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 20, 2012 08:04 PM (QupBk)

108 t-bird, yes wghat happened with that. I had thought that was the last excuse for the flopping aaround, It will be so useful right before the election!

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:05 PM (nqBYe)

109 They stopped whiping votes. That's a good sign.

Posted by: Butters at December 20, 2012 08:05 PM (NIZHJ)

110 I will point out as well that the 'electability' Republicans are responsible for this Grand Bargain in the first place: remember, it was ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL we avoid a credit downgrade. We got one anyway after we raised the debt ceiling.

Our best time to negotiate was in August 2011, but we kicked the can on the belief we would win big in 2012. The political prophecies all turned out wrong.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:06 PM (uhAkr)

111 "Really? You're going to tee it up for us this easily? Newsflash: a
political realist understands the surpassing, overwhelming importance of
political theater to actually achieving the proper results at the end
of the game. Only fools think that the so-called "theater" is
unimportant -- which is probably why we keep getting flattened as a
movement and a party: because far too many conservatives (especially the
online variety) believe our ideas and positions simply sell themselves,
and disdain the idea of working on crafting the right image and
positioning."

That's all this is to you, political fucking strategy. Let me clue you in, all this political bullshit is being played out by the same fucks that got us into this mess. But you go ahead and pretend we're going to "win" something. Jesus fucking Christ, what the hell do you think is going to happen? We're going to force Obama's hand if we pass this Plan B? Then we can get a real deal with entitlement and spending cuts with no tax hikes leading to the final fantasy, winning some elections in 2014! Yeah baby good times are a com'n!

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 08:06 PM (GZitp)

112 again with 1.2 trillion in cuts ! no explanation what they are!

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:06 PM (nqBYe)

113 So much for the SCOAMT's bluff.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:06 PM (YjDyJ)

114 @rebeccagberg McCarthy, Cantor, Boehner would not speak to whether they think a larger deal can be passed if Plan B can’t get the votes

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:07 PM (YjDyJ)

115 Doesn't that Senate thingy also have to vote on this?

Posted by: Butters at December 20, 2012 08:07 PM (NIZHJ)

116 'Whipping the votes' Kinda figures this Congress would be into abuse.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:07 PM (NhdPR)

117 Only about 1 in 4 articles I've read about Plan B mentions that it's essentially Nancy Pelosi's plan.

The GOP should be saying that at every opportunity. Compromise? We compromised so much we gave the president Nancy Pelosi's plan!

Posted by: Warden at December 20, 2012 08:07 PM (HzhBE)

118 Ryan says there are no specifics in presidential plan

no specific cuts nada

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:07 PM (nqBYe)

119 The fiscal cliff is only a reality in a zero-sum fantasy world. Remind me again about the fiscal cliff in three years.

Posted by: Fritz at December 20, 2012 08:08 PM (K/NRd)

120 RE #113, that should be "so much for calling his bluff".

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:08 PM (YjDyJ)

121 @104 We got the income tax and the IRS from the fag G.O.P./Rodney King Republicans. And the E.P.A., and every other monstrous tumopr of Totalitarianism, all in the interest of "governing well".
Guess what. I'm ungovernable, and you should try it sometime... mais, alors, la France se montre du doigt.

Posted by: Thorvald at December 20, 2012 08:08 PM (1V6Pv)

122 The question is moot.

Posted by: mayan calendar at December 20, 2012 08:08 PM (QupBk)

123 ugh, house what?

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:08 PM (nqBYe)

124 miss80s did you get that? no vote ?

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:09 PM (nqBYe)

125 @110:"Our best time to negotiate was in August 2011, but we kicked the can on the belief we would win big in 2012. The political prophecies all turned out wrong.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:06 PM (uhAkr)
---
Well, we were poised to win big. Then came the awful primary season, then the unrebutted killing of Romney, then the Obamacare ruling, then the ORCA disaster, etc. All of which made so many people on our side stay home.

400,000 votes. Ah, what could've been so as no to hear SCOAMF on tv again!

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 08:09 PM (Y5I9o)

126 ugh, that's it?

what happensn ow?

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:09 PM (nqBYe)

127 F#* the Mayans with a concrete D!%*.

Posted by: Butters at December 20, 2012 08:09 PM (NIZHJ)

128 @edatpost @speakerboehner left the Capitol at 8:04 p.m. ET and made no comments to reporters who followed him.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:09 PM (YjDyJ)

129 If playing this game as Gabe suggets is such a good idea, then why are we in this situation in the first place?

Posted by: eman at December 20, 2012 08:10 PM (EWsrI)

130 why?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 20, 2012 08:03 PM (piMMO)



Never saw it, and it's out, so I'm watching it.

It's really bad.

Posted by: © Sponge at December 20, 2012 08:10 PM (sw9Vn)

131 Nightmare before Christmas is on. Seems appropriate.

Posted by: Spypeach at December 20, 2012 08:10 PM (pwTow)

132 @128:"made no comments to reporters who followed him.
Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:09 PM (YjDyJ)
---

I think Boehner's finally getting it.

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 08:11 PM (Y5I9o)

133 What % of millionaires actually vote Repub?

The finance, media, and tech over-class all vote Dem by huge majorities.

What do we get? Energy sector maybe?

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:11 PM (ZPrif)

134 Well, we were poised to win big. Then came the awful primary season,
then the unrebutted killing of Romney, then the Obamacare ruling, then
the ORCA disaster, etc. All of which made so many people on our side
stay home.


The only thing that you can predict reliably in politics is that nobody's forecasts will be right.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:12 PM (uhAkr)

135 130:"It's really bad.
Posted by: © Sponge at December 20, 2012 08:10 PM (sw9Vn)
--

What's so bad about it? I mean, apart from it having to do with taht Liberal douche Seth MacFarlane? Make it post-topical by comparing it to the fiscal cliff crisis by allegory.

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 08:12 PM (Y5I9o)

136 thanks for the updates Gabe.

"Enormity" is a terrible crime.

"Enormousness" is a characteristic of large things.

Posted by: Truman North (D) at December 20, 2012 08:12 PM (TvZ/i)

137 TrueCons of the GOP shoot down a bill that would have stopped it because it didn't also provide relief to the 1%.

We don't have to run faster than the bear ... we just have to run faster than our former hunting buddy ...

Posted by: Adriane at December 20, 2012 08:12 PM (gh+mp)

138 That's your twisted spin on people who honor a commitment to voters not to support a tax hike.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 07:57 PM (3GtyG)


Plan B is NOT tax hike. By voting against it, the Dems will be able to claim that the GOP will throw the Middle Class under the bus to try to protect millionaires. And there is NOTHING that the GOP can say or do after that to change the narrative.

It will push the Middle Class right from the free market into "social democracy" -- we will then have become Europe.

Think strategically ahead.

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 20, 2012 08:12 PM (XvHmy)

139 What % of millionaires actually vote Repub?

Why is that? Why do they keep voting dem?

Posted by: EC at December 20, 2012 08:13 PM (doBIb)

140 @134:"The only thing that you can predict reliably in politics is that nobody's forecasts will be right."
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:12 PM (uhAkr)
-----
Nate Silver! Nate Silver! Nate Silver! Nate Silver! Nate Silver!

jgralui%$dfhk#% cthwer*as *foams at mouth*

Posted by: Crazed Leftist at December 20, 2012 08:14 PM (Y5I9o)

141 Boehner says it is now up to BO Reid to come up with something to avoid the 'cliff'. The House is DONE.
Meanwhile, market futures are tanking.

Posted by: carolina at December 20, 2012 08:14 PM (QVLHl)

142 meh, I know I'm supposed to oppose all tax hikes but the Dem's always love say the economy boomed under the Clinton taxes, well fine, let go ahead and have the rates on the bottom 98% go back to Clinton levels as well as the rates on the top 2%, 1% or 0.2% of taxpayers. Then let them explain that its still all wonderful.

Posted by: PaleRider at December 20, 2012 08:14 PM (dkExz)

143 I thought the giant dildo already made his post for the day.

Posted by: Buzzion at December 20, 2012 08:14 PM (PFRZ9)

144 Why is that? Why do they keep voting dem?

Lots of "The Rich" are rent-seekers, not entrepreneurs.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 20, 2012 08:14 PM (QupBk)

145 ugh, that's it?

what happensn ow?
Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:09 PM (nqBYe)

I know what you meant. "What Happens? ow. That's the sound we are going to make when Obama raids our paychecks yet again.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 20, 2012 08:14 PM (3Y7RV)

146 EC to make sure they are eaten last?

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:14 PM (nqBYe)

147 Btw FreedomWorks emailed me and asked me to tell my congressweasel to vote no on plan B.

My congressweasel is the utterly weasely Jim McGovern, who once gave a speech lauding Fidel Castro, so his "no" vote was in the bag.

Posted by: Truman North (D) at December 20, 2012 08:14 PM (TvZ/i)

148 He's about 12 hours early.

Posted by: Butters at December 20, 2012 08:15 PM (NIZHJ)

149 The callers on C-Span are the smartest people ever!!!!!!!!

Posted by: t-dubyah-d at December 20, 2012 08:15 PM (WX65W)

150 Stock market futures are plumeting

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 08:15 PM (79ueO)

151 Voting against Plan B is making the acceptible the enemy of the perfect and the good, both of which are impossible and further they are more impolitic.

Plan B is a holding move, and technically doesn't raise taxes on the 2%, but extends the lower tax rates for the 98%. This is all semantics, but there is no good option here.

When the next Congress reconvenes, this vote will be as forgotten as the original sequestration vote (which, oddly , was never an issue during the election he said with dripping sarcasm) and sequestration is actually the only outcome that might impact our current fiscal status.

But the situation is still as messed up and will stay that way (or get worse) over the foreseeable future.

Posted by: Minuteman at December 20, 2012 08:15 PM (qs9G3)

152 Oldsailor's heh

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:15 PM (nqBYe)

153 we will then have become Europe.

Please. We're the New World. We're a diverse nation of immigrants, a proposition nation; free from the mistakes of history.

We'll be Argentina.

Posted by: boulder hobo at December 20, 2012 08:15 PM (QTHTd)

154 Unfortunately, what happened tonight just increased the likelihood of an even worse deal.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:15 PM (YjDyJ)

155 Hey OSP. Well besides Congress, how you feeling?

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:16 PM (NhdPR)

156 @robertcostaNRO Ryan just left the Capitol w/ Tom Price. Huddling and discussing the current mess on Capitol Hill

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:16 PM (YjDyJ)

157 Reminds me of that song. Tied to the whiping post.

Posted by: Butters at December 20, 2012 08:17 PM (NIZHJ)

158 return after the christma holidays.

wow , nice, don't do your job but vacay and pay anyway!

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:17 PM (nqBYe)

159 It's status, it's cultural.
Having the "correct" opinions does more for your career in LA, NY, and silicon valley than 5% savings on your taxes.

Humans are tribal. They need an enemy. And they've chosen us.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:17 PM (ZPrif)

160 " ...watched the TrueCons of the GOP shoot down a bill that would have stopped it because it didn't also provide relief to the 1%."

No it wouldn't, the Senate wouldn't pass this bill.
Now, we already passed bills that cut everybody's taxes, and the Senate killed them.

So we already had that cover that --so you claim-- is so important and the only real goal here.

But standing for no tax hikes doesn't weaken the Right within the GOP, so, it's not as fun for you. You need for the DOA Plan B bill to certify the death of the no-tax pledge, now and forever.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 08:17 PM (3GtyG)

161 Hopefully this will be the end of Bohener as speaker.

Further, this highlights much of the stupidity of the Bohener-omnibus approach.

Each of these measures regarding taxes should have gone forward either as a single piece of legislation, or a series of individual measures.

Attaching it to the pseudo-spending cuts (which change everything from immediate this-year cuts to "over 10 year savings."). Made it toxic and a non starter.

Instead of passing the tax relief, he tried to play fiscal games. Again. And got ass raped. Again.

So let's be clear, that it wasn't true cons, it was terrible decision making from Bohener.

Posted by: Hopeless at December 20, 2012 08:18 PM (89r5W)

162 damn it, it probably really is going to burn.
fkrs

Posted by: ette at December 20, 2012 08:18 PM (nqBYe)

163 This is what the Let It Burn people (some of them, anyway) wanted. Pass a
conservative bill and throw it back in Obama's lap. Leave town and say
we did our part. Or we could do nothing. Because the American people are
just going to love that when their taxes go up, we did nothing about
it.


Honestly, we could pass anything. The key is what the LIVs are told about it.

And they'll just be told that Obama's a good guy who's trying his hardest to avoid the fiscal cliff that the bad old Republicans are trying to cause.

And they won't hear any details.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 20, 2012 08:18 PM (xSegX)

164 House is recessing for Christmas

http://njour.nl/TEg5aJ

Unless the philosophical purists change their mind over Christmas, then the GOP will have conceded the 2014 elections, and handed the Dem's a supermajority in the Senate in '16. If the Dems play this right, they could get 2/3 in each House... rewrite the Constitution... and get it passed through the states via conventions with the help of the MSM.

This will not end well...

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 20, 2012 08:18 PM (XvHmy)

165 Anybody else get asolicitaion for G.W. Bush's learning center?

Posted by: t-dubyah-d at December 20, 2012 08:18 PM (WX65W)

166 "It will push the Middle Class right from the free market into "social democracy" -- we will then have become Europe.



Think strategically ahead."


We are fucking Europe, worse, that's why they want to keep raising the fucking debt limit. Think fucking strategically, sure let's put on some political theater so we can all pretend we aren't a statist nation just waiting for complete fiscal collapse. We're fucked either way put you keep pretending the next election is the most important thing.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 08:18 PM (GZitp)

167 I think Brazil is our likely future. Brazil with nukes.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:18 PM (ZPrif)

168 Gabe, wouldn't you feel more at home on Hot Air?

Posted by: OhioCoastie at December 20, 2012 08:18 PM (pKCuj)

169 Amazing how many idiot TruCons are also SoCons. The GOP would lose a lot if idiots if they were run out of the Party.

Plan B is the best play possible

Posted by: Nama at December 20, 2012 08:19 PM (cryCJ)

170 Dow Futures off almost 300 points

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 08:19 PM (79ueO)

171 Boehner should have put it to the vote anyway, if he were any sort of leader.

Then ejected the Party members who voted it down.

Posted by: boulder hobo at December 20, 2012 08:19 PM (QTHTd)

172 167 I think Brazil is our likely future. Brazil with nukes.
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:18 PM (ZPrif)



So does that include the women? Cause if so...

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 20, 2012 08:19 PM (GEICT)

173 The Ten Commandments were originally 20, but Moses had to strike a deal with the Loyalist Remnant, who suddenly found themselves admiring Pharaoh's ability to build things for the people. He was "realistic", just as about 30 centuries later Kissinger was "realistic" about the Soviet Union. "Can't we all just get along?"

Posted by: Thorvald at December 20, 2012 08:20 PM (1V6Pv)

174 It's status, it's cultural.

Having the "correct" opinions does more for your career in LA, NY, and silicon valley than 5% savings on your taxes.



Humans are tribal. They need an enemy. And they've chosen us.


Yup.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 20, 2012 08:20 PM (xSegX)

175 Time for some K-pop
http://youtu.be/t40fHb6v-7w

http://youtu.be/s2EQm6WPMHs

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:20 PM (NhdPR)

176 This will not end well...
It ended last November. We're just waiting for the coronation now.

Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 08:20 PM (NaNKB)

177 Hopefully this will be the end of Bohener as speaker.

This would be a good silver lining. The man has a poor record.

The GOP needs to try something new. We may not know if the new way will work, but we know for certain the old way didn't.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:20 PM (uhAkr)

178 Much RINO whining.

Feh.

Posted by: eman at December 20, 2012 08:20 PM (EWsrI)

179 Looks like the Mayans were partially right!

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 08:20 PM (79ueO)

180 >>>That's all this is to you, political fucking strategy. Let me clue you
in, all this political bullshit is being played out by the same fucks
that got us into this mess.


You go to war with the army you have. You play the game with the players on the field. But this "ZOMG POLITICAL THEATER IS FOR SELLOUTS" stuff studiously ignores the reality that the game is going to get played whether you participate in it or not. A forfeit is a loss nonetheless. Think of it like hockey, where you can still amass points on the season record vs. your divisional opponents even when you lose or tie, depending how you played the game. Even if the deck is stacked for us here (because of Obama and the Senate), it's still better for us to lose with the right political positioning than to forfeit altogether and lose something far more catastrophic in the next election.

Unless you want to explain to me how you think the GOP is going to be able to sell "sorry your taxes went up America, but we didn't want to vote for a bill that would have kept them down for 99% of you because too many of our members felt that it was more symbolically appropriate to raise them for everyone rather than just for the top 1% of earners." They CAN sell "hey, we were the reasonable ones, we gave the Dems what they said they wanted and voted to return taxes for the top 1% to the Clinton rates while holding the line for the rest of you good middle class folks -- but Obama and the Senate are a bunch of ideological turds."

I know which message I'd prefer to go into the 2014 elections with.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 08:20 PM (/COnL)

181 I don't get why the House doesn't just pass a bill jacking taxes on the '1%' to 90%, lower them for everyone else, and leave it to Obama and the media explain why it's bad.

Posted by: mugiwara at December 20, 2012 08:21 PM (hpYnL)

182 We are also 11 days from the end of the quarter and the hedge fundies returning to the bunker. Death Spiral on the horizon.

Posted by: Butters at December 20, 2012 08:21 PM (NIZHJ)

183 Hey OSP. Well besides Congress, how you feeling?
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:16 PM (NhdPR)

Wonderful, Had a fine day today. Read the Christmas tail. Will send you an E-mail. The house is crazy, my three blondes want another dog and I have put my foot down, not just no, hell no. Other than that, all is well.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 20, 2012 08:21 PM (3Y7RV)

184 @169 This.
You really do belong in France.

Posted by: Thorvald at December 20, 2012 08:22 PM (1V6Pv)

185 We need to be clear. Sequestration gives us 800b in cuts THIS YEAR.

Bohener's plan would make it 1.1 trillion over 10 years.

It was a shit sandwich from the getgo.

He could have passed the tax Package solo, sent it to the senate, and walked away with a win.

Bohener is not on our side.

Posted by: Hopeless at December 20, 2012 08:22 PM (MJ7uZ)

186 Who are the 21 traitors?

Posted by: Mr. Poontang at December 20, 2012 08:22 PM (ULNMd)

187 Conservatives have never understood the concept of 'incrementalism.'

Incrementalism is how the Republic has been transformed into Eurosocialism.

Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 08:22 PM (NaNKB)

188 Future America - Brazil with nukes and an asian over-class.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:22 PM (ZPrif)

189 Au contrere mon frere.

Posted by: Butters at December 20, 2012 08:23 PM (NIZHJ)

190 an asian over-class.
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:22 PM (ZPrif)

I like asian girls

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 08:23 PM (79ueO)

191 161 Attaching it to the pseudo-spending cuts (which change everything from immediate this-year cuts to "over 10 year savings."). Made it toxic and a non starter.

They were two separate bills. Furthermore, the sequester replacement bill passed the House earlier this year.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:23 PM (YjDyJ)

192 "I know which message I'd prefer to go into the 2014 elections with.


Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 08:20 PM (/COnL)"
Fuck the 2014 election, nothing is going to change.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 08:23 PM (GZitp)

193 Soo... those EVIL True Fiscal Cons... who ran and got re-elected on NOT Raising Taxes....

Won't vote for a Tax Raise....

/suprise face!

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 20, 2012 08:23 PM (lZBBB)

194 Gabe you ignorant slut...
Boehner's "Plan B" bill raises the debt by Trillions of dollars over the next 10 years, it's basically the same as Obama's plan, are there some different details, sure, but that's all they are - details - miscellaneous nothings that mean nothing.

Posted by: Shoey at December 20, 2012 08:23 PM (m6OUa)

195 I've read most of the comments, and I honestly don't know what the fuck this is about.

Posted by: rickl at December 20, 2012 08:24 PM (sdi6R)

196 Glad you are doing better OSP. Story is a silly thing, not the typical fare for such a genre.

If it wasn't for family, you would be bored. Admit it.

Spending Christmas with family which means travel. So boarding the cats.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:24 PM (NhdPR)

197 I think Brazil is our likely future. Brazil with nukes.


***

Speaking of Brazil...

Donna Brazile tweeted Cory Booker to tell him whatever he decides, she is behind him all the way.

Ugh.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 20, 2012 08:24 PM (piMMO)

198 The Sequestration is what we need.We need even stronger medicine actually,but sequestration is the best we can get.

Posted by: steevy at December 20, 2012 08:24 PM (9XBK2)

199 10% layoffs this week where I work. I am sure in light of a lack of any closure by our friends in DC.

Not knowing what will happen in '13....management drops the axe.

Posted by: John Stark Dark at December 20, 2012 08:24 PM (0JB89)

200 I've read most of the comments, and I honestly don't know what the fuck this is about.
Posted by: rickl at December 20, 2012 08:24 PM (sdi6R)

Ever get stuck in terrible traffic in midtown Manhattan and you don't even move for a hour. And ya gotta pee also. That's kinda like what it is all about

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 08:25 PM (79ueO)

201 I've read most of the comments, and I honestly don't know what the fuck this is about.
Yah, that's about where all of us are now, I think.

Maybe instead of voting "Present" in the next Congress, Republicans should just vote "What the Fuck?'

Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 08:25 PM (NaNKB)

202 I like asian chicks, too. Brazil doesn't have an asian over-class, though, or nukes.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:25 PM (ZPrif)

203 The Sequestration is what we need.We need even stronger medicine actually,but sequestration is the best we can get.
Posted by: steevy at December 20, 2012 08:24 PM (9XBK2)

It's gonna severely hurt the Military

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 08:25 PM (79ueO)

204 Rickl,

Gabe gave bad info and people are running with it.

Posted by: Hopeless at December 20, 2012 08:26 PM (MJ7uZ)

205 *"Plan B is NOT tax hike."*

Plan B is a positive affirmation that taxes will go up on nasty mean evil rich people. That is a tax hike, Grover Norquist's oily collapse notwithstanding.

*"By voting against it, the Dems will be able to claim that the GOP will throw the Middle Class under the bus to try to protect millionaires."*

Dems will lie no matter what.

*"And there is NOTHING that the GOP can say or do after that to change the narrative."*

Really? Then let them resign, and make way for right-wing politicians who won't give up. Seriously. I'm not tied to feckless lying cowards.

*"It will push the Middle Class right from the free market into "social democracy" -- we will then have become Europe.*"

Most states in Europe have passed from Monarchy, dictatorship, democracy, to continental union within a human lifetime. Don't tell me we're "Europe" and then say, "and nothing will change" because that's an oxymoron.

*"Think strategically ahead.*"

There's no point empowering cowardly liars who want to destroy the very idea of "platform" to dodge responsibility for the fiscal cliff they voted in a year ago. They'll just suddenly decide the "Big Picture" requires a collapse every time the President pushes for a showdown.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 08:26 PM (3GtyG)

206 For the last two months, the school house answer here has been "let it burn." Now, the 21 Rs who actually vote to LIB are the bad guys?

Somebody help me.

Posted by: Call me Ishmael at December 20, 2012 08:26 PM (p4U6S)

207 I for one welcome our new Hello Kitty anime overlords.

Posted by: Butters at December 20, 2012 08:26 PM (NIZHJ)

208 It's all moot, anyway. The Republicans have already lost the House in 2014, IMO.

The Republican Party is dead as a doornail. It just hasn't fallen over yet.

Posted by: rickl at December 20, 2012 08:26 PM (sdi6R)

209 >>>Hopefully this will be the end of Bohener as speaker.


It's the end of House rule for Republicans. Obama is still campaigning for 2014 mid terms and the True Cons handed him a big fat club.

Plan B was never going to pass the Senate, it was a political cover. Republican party is a dead man walking.

Posted by: Eaton Cox at December 20, 2012 08:26 PM (q177U)

210 There's an exciting three-way goin' on two posts down at the "war on womyn".

MUMR, Moo Moo, and DAve.

Quite the spectacle. And I have to say, MUMR is on his game tonight.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at December 20, 2012 08:26 PM (4Mv1T)

211 Spending Christmas with family which means travel. So boarding the cats.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:24 PM (NhdPR)

Good luck. All I have left is my Mom (only child.)

My crew is very low maintenance, kids are happy with simple things.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 20, 2012 08:26 PM (3Y7RV)

212 203 Yeah,but it has to be done.What do you think Obama will do to the military anyway?Maybe it's best we take it out of his hands.

Posted by: steevy at December 20, 2012 08:27 PM (9XBK2)

213 I've read most of the comments, and I honestly don't know what the fuck this is about.

Posted by: rickl at December 20, 2012 08:24 PM (sdi6R)


The 2012 presidential loss occurred tonight because of Truuuue cons or something. The vote was so bad it went retroactive and caused Romney's loss.Boehner knows you can't browbeat Democrats or independents, but for some reason it's political realism to browbeat conservatives and then be surprised when they don't do what you want.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:27 PM (uhAkr)

214 Start typing into Bing Japan Carnival Girls...

You know what one of the suggestions that popped up just by typing Japan Carni???

Japan carnivore girls. I am NOT clicking on that.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:27 PM (NhdPR)

215 172
167 I think Brazil is our likely future. Brazil with nukes.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:18 PM (ZPrif)





So does that include the women? Cause if so...



I had a female Brazilian intern once.

I got no work done that summer.

Posted by: EC at December 20, 2012 08:27 PM (doBIb)

216 So, is this good?

Posted by: Russkiover at December 20, 2012 08:28 PM (EJr9e)

217 The good thing about becoming a 3rd world shithole -- we are gonna drill the fuck out of the oil in California.

The white lefties think their Mexican peasant class are gonna vote against drilling for oil? heh.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:28 PM (ZPrif)

218 OT So a thread or two ago it was mentioned that former Olympian Suzy Favor-Hamilton has been "escorting."

The pic gallery is...impressive.



Mildly NSFW.


http://tinyurl.com/d4ethk2

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 20, 2012 08:28 PM (GEICT)

219 Well, it this hastens the demise of the GOP then so be it.

LIB.

Posted by: DocJ at December 20, 2012 08:28 PM (V20sy)

220 Gee Cavuto get that cock sucker Ellison off the TV before I puke

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 08:28 PM (79ueO)

221 DOW futures plunge 250

Posted by: carolina at December 20, 2012 08:28 PM (z2shr)

222 Here we go a video from 2010 of Japan having a Samba carnival
http://youtu.be/PZ2HNnRGuH0

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:28 PM (NhdPR)

223 I think the House should have passed Plan B.

If we have sequestration, it will only be temporary. The Democrats will demonize the GOP until they cut some shitty deal and any economic downturn will be blamed on the brief sequestration period.

Posted by: Warden at December 20, 2012 08:30 PM (HzhBE)

224 "I've read most of the comments, and I honestly don't know what the fuck this is about."

It's about a bill that would make the current tax rates permanent for those making under a mil a year, supposedly forcing Obama to agree to some peddely ass spending cuts so the house can pass a debt limit increase so everyone in Washington can go on pretending money grows on trees. And in Malor's and the JeffB.'s of the worlds mind, if this doesn't happen we are doomed to lose some seats in 2014. That's what they think the tragedy is, losing the 2014 election, not the impending fiscal nightmare.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 08:31 PM (GZitp)

225 I know which message I'd prefer to go into the 2014 2012 elections with.


Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 08:20 PM (/COnL)

Fixed!

Posted by: Yay us! at December 20, 2012 08:31 PM (2rucj)

226 >>>Amazing how many idiot TruCons are also SoCons. The GOP would lose a lot if idiots if they were run out of the Party.

Yeah, but we'd also lose the ability to win pretty much any elections in the near term. Running people out of the party -- whether Naive TrueCon Simpletons or Arrogant RINO Squish Sellouts -- is not the answer. The answer is to convince them of how and why they're wrong.

The danger, unfortunately, is that I do think some elements in the TrueCon/SoCon section have started indulging in weirdly beguiling apocalyptic fantasies as a way of coping with the pain of losing the election (and, for certain SoCons, coping the dislocation that manifest long-term changes in cultural have caused: "rape babies are gift from God" is never again going to be a prescription for winning elections, and gay marriage isn't going anywhere).

That's what a lot of the "Let it Burn" seems to me to be about...I think some folks find it grimly invigorating to say "fuck it, let's just burn the whole country down if we can't win," and they excuse their embrace of (let's call it by its true name) nihilism by blandly proclaiming "oh, well the country can't be saved anyway...so let's hasten its death!" That's some seriously Ra's Al Ghul shit right there. I've had fleeting impulses like that myself -- and yes, I am pessimistic in general -- but goddammit I owe to myself, to the girl I love, to the kids I hope to have, not to just give up like that. Or (even worse in my opinion) to actively cheer destructive political acts on the barbaric logic that "well we/they deserve it."

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 08:32 PM (/COnL)

227 Think about how well this worked out for Newt in 95!

Posted by: Gilbert Grabass at December 20, 2012 08:32 PM (ULNMd)

228 The person to blame here is Boehner.

He could have put each tax measure up for an up or down vote as individual items, and gotten them all through.

Posted by: Hopeless at December 20, 2012 08:32 PM (MJ7uZ)

229 So what happens now can change November's Elections?

Posted by: Butters at December 20, 2012 08:33 PM (NIZHJ)

230 Why doesn't Boo hoo just hold a vote to extend all of the bush tax rates? If dingy Harry is going to not take it up anyway then there's no risk to any republican. Then throw all the goodies like the amt fix for good measure. While they are at it they can throw in about 1.5 trillion in cuts per year.

Posted by: Metalgod at December 20, 2012 08:33 PM (YgIJ8)

231 @195 It's about Washington D.C. spending about 180% of The People's hard-earned taxes EVERY YEAR. (I.e.,they borrow about $0.45 of every dollar they spend.) And spending at a rate that makes the speed of matter being inexorably swallowed by a black hole look leisurely in comparison.

Posted by: Thorvald at December 20, 2012 08:34 PM (1V6Pv)

232 Why not throw in a rider making it illegal for pederasts to head the Senate?

Posted by: Butters at December 20, 2012 08:35 PM (NIZHJ)

233 >>>It's about a bill that would make the current tax rates permanent for those making under a mil a year, supposedly forcing Obama to agree to some peddely ass spending cuts so the house can pass a debt limit increase so everyone in Washington can go on pretending money grows on trees.


IT WASN'T GOING TO PASS THE SENATE!!!!

None of that was going to happen. This was just cover. It's all about 2014 now. Obama wants both houses. Then he can pass ANY fucking tax increase he wants.

Posted by: Eaton Cox at December 20, 2012 08:35 PM (q177U)

234 Jeff B is right.
I knew a big leftie girl in the early 90s. Pre-Clinton. Tail end of 12 years of Repub rule.

But she had the Leftie motto -- Early to bed, early to rise, work like hell and organize.

"Work like hell and organize" beats "Let it burn" 999 times out of 1,000.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:35 PM (ZPrif)

235 @224:"That's what they think the tragedy is, losing the 2014 election, not the impending fiscal nightmare.
Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 08:31 PM (GZitp)
--

Ok, so now we're dickishly reading people's minds. That's no better than the Libs, you know...

Posted by: Crazed Leftist at December 20, 2012 08:35 PM (Y5I9o)

236 f%$#-ing sock~!

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 08:36 PM (Y5I9o)

237 Jeff,

Let me turn it back on you.

Who decides to put it together as a single bill that couldn't pass his own caucus?

The one embracing apocalyptic fantasies of never winning again is you, while playing surrender monkey.

Why not deal with facts and substance instead of saying, "I'm not going to blame X, even though it's all Xs fault."

Posted by: Hopeless at December 20, 2012 08:36 PM (MJ7uZ)

238 231 Thorvald
And spending at a rate that makes the speed of matter being inexorably swallowed by a black hole look leisurely in comparison.


Thread winner.

Posted by: rickl at December 20, 2012 08:36 PM (sdi6R)

239 222 Here we go a video from 2010 of Japan having a Samba carnival
http://youtu.be/PZ2HNnRGuH0

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 20, 2012 08:28 PM (NhdPR)




Well that was bizarre. But some of those chicks were quality.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 20, 2012 08:36 PM (GEICT)

240 To JeffB. this still all about elections. That fucking ship has sailed, we ain't winning shit. All we can do is obstruct, we're a fucking resistance party. How hard is that to understand?

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 08:36 PM (GZitp)

241 "Ok, so now we're dickishly reading people's minds. That's no better than the Libs, you know...

Posted by: Crazed Leftist at December 20, 2012 08:35 PM (Y5I9o)"
Read his fucking mind? I don't have to read his fucking mind because he stated the very thing in all his comments here.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 08:38 PM (GZitp)

242 @234:""Work like hell and organize" beats "Let it burn" 999 times out of 1,000.
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:35 PM (ZPrif)
--

This is also what lowandslow doesn't understand. You can LIB smartly and you can LIB stupidly. The latter consists of throwing up your hands, doing nothing, and ignoring the fact that the enemy will be organizing like hell to grab all the power it can while you rest on your laurels and pooh-pooh as quislings anyone who still tries to ease the crash .

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 08:38 PM (Y5I9o)

243 The GOP is violently arguing over the position of a lawnchair on the deck of Titanic.

People who point out this lunacy are called truuuuuecons. We don't dare propose heading to the lifeboats. That might be unpopular.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:39 PM (uhAkr)

244 Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 08:26 PM (3GtyG)

Saying that merely being in favor of giving tax cuts to millionaires is so important, that is worth throwing the Middle Class under the bus is insane. It is what the Democrats want and hope for.

While the Dems and MSM will say what they want, handing them a cudgel to beat us with that we can not defend to the vast majority of Americans is STUPID.

When a House GOP member who oppossed Plan B is in a debate with a "moderate" sounding Dem who says the GOP was willing to increase taxes on the Middle Class in order to merely support giving tax cuts to millionaires, how the hell is that House member going to counter that?

The damage is too great. It is the fiscal equivalent of pulling an Akin.

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 20, 2012 08:39 PM (XvHmy)

245 I don't know if Suzy Favor-Hamilton is a fan of the triathlon, but when I'm done with her, she'd be the favorite to win the Ironman competition on seven continents.

Posted by: Fritz at December 20, 2012 08:39 PM (K/NRd)

246 2014 is light years away.

Relax.

Anyone throwing a tantrum that "this cost us 2014" needs to get over the vapors.

Posted by: Hopeless at December 20, 2012 08:39 PM (MJ7uZ)

247 Pass a bill making Bush Cuts permanent, along with big spending cuts. Then, go home for Christmas. No taxes raised, same result.

Posted by: Big T Party at December 20, 2012 08:40 PM (WiQr+)

248 @241:Read his fucking mind? I don't have to read his fucking mind because he stated the very thing in all his comments here.Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 08:38 PM (GZitp)
--
Uh...I highly doubt that JeffB thinks the outcome 2014 elections and the fiscal cliff are separate issues. Let's not have any strawman dichotomies, please.

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 08:40 PM (Y5I9o)

249 This whole thing about Obama wanting to raise taxes on the 2% is just a game of capture the flag for him. He is just a petulant child and he couldn't care less about taxes going up on everyone. It's what he wants.

Posted by: Metalgod at December 20, 2012 08:41 PM (YgIJ8)

250 IT WASN'T GOING TO PASS THE SENATE!!!!

As I understood the strategy, that was the point. I could be misinformed, but I had heard that Plan B was the same, or very similar, to something that the Senate did pass earlier. The idea was to pass something that the Democrats had already once agreed to, and have them explain why it was no longer acceptable.

But whatever. Let it burn.

Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 08:41 PM (NaNKB)

251
Work like hell and organize
======
Yeah their version of that differs greatly from ours, in terms of fraud, end justifying means, things like that. Plus they're like terminators, they never stop coming at us.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 20, 2012 08:41 PM (MPjT8)

252 @robertcostaNRO This is absolute chaos within the House GOP. Members are livid w/ fellow members. "B" backers think "nay" voters just ruined Boehner's hand.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:42 PM (YjDyJ)

253 No taxes raised, same result.

Posted by: Big T Party at December 20, 2012 08:40 PM (WiQr+)

Let's not get carried away here.

Posted by: John Boehner at December 20, 2012 08:42 PM (2rucj)

254 243 The GOP is violently arguing over the position of a lawnchair on the deck of Titanic.

People who point out this lunacy are called truuuuuecons. We don't dare propose heading to the lifeboats. That might be unpopular.


Well, there aren't enough lifeboats, as you know.

We should just start sidling quietly towards them. Some of us are already doing that.

Wouldn't want to cause panic, would we?

Posted by: rickl at December 20, 2012 08:43 PM (sdi6R)

255 Plus they're like terminators, they never stop coming at us.
Posted by: USS Diversity at December 20, 2012 08:41 PM (MPjT
---

This is where the bukkake kabuki comes in, right?

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 08:43 PM (Y5I9o)

256

Putting the capital TM in The Stupid Party (tm)

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 20, 2012 08:43 PM (69Mdf)

257 When a House GOP member who oppossed Plan B is in a debate with a
"moderate" sounding Dem who says the GOP was willing to increase taxes
on the Middle Class in order to merely support giving tax cuts to
millionaires, how the hell is that House member going to counter that?


Because democrats are the people who wanted to tax millionaires so badly they went home before the vote even happened.

The GOP candidate can then point out that revenues are lower and misery is greater, that tax increases haven't fixed the deficit problems, that increasing revenue was never the problem.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:43 PM (uhAkr)

258 The point of the Republican party is?

Posted by: SFGoth at December 20, 2012 08:44 PM (dZ756)

259 The point of the Republican party is?

Ever hear of the Washington Generals?

Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 08:45 PM (NaNKB)

260 The point of the Republican party is?


Posted by: SFGoth at December 20, 2012 08:44 PM (dZ756)

We're the other side of the same coin.

Posted by: Yay us! at December 20, 2012 08:45 PM (2rucj)

261
Ever hear of the Washington Generals?
Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 08:45 PM (NaNKB)
====
nice

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 20, 2012 08:45 PM (MPjT8)

262 The leftie chick I knew volunteered her summers (her daddy was a rich lawyer) at an Outward Bound style eco-camp for training young eco-activists.

She was very honest that they whole point was to get them young and brainwash them. She'd proudly use the word brainwash to describe her job.

I should have been more repulsed by her. But I was young, she was young and hot, and she'd blow me every time we hung out without making me call her my girlfriend. So I, uh, kinda overlooked her creepy eco-fascist politics at the time.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:46 PM (ZPrif)

263 @257 Should be to reduce the size of government. The smaller the government, the freer the people. The freer you are, the more generous you are: with your treasure, with yourself, and with your circle of peeps.
Government is the problem, not the solution.

Posted by: Thorvald at December 20, 2012 08:46 PM (1V6Pv)

264 I'm heartened that there are still some Republicans that realize that one of the main planks of conservative dogma is that low levels of taxation is good and necessary for a proper functioning economy and society.

Anyone voting in the affirmative is guaranteed a primary challenge.

And the main reason to vote no on Plan B is it is unprincipled to raise taxes on a class of people simply because they are vilified for being successful.

Here is the plan that Mark Levin has put forward and I think it is a good one.

You leave the top two rates unchanged and you lower the others 2 points.

The "rich" don't get a break and the middle class gets a two point reduction.

You could easily pass it. Then go home and let the Donks and the President explain why they want to raise the taxes on the middle class.


BOOM!

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 20, 2012 08:47 PM (0fxcV)

265 Yay! The bartending thread is back up! We're saved!

For the moment, anyway.

Posted by: rickl at December 20, 2012 08:47 PM (sdi6R)

266 What kills me is that these tax increases and sequestration are what Obama signed into law! And somehow it's the republicans fault that taxes are going up?

Posted by: Metalgod at December 20, 2012 08:47 PM (YgIJ8)

267 "The latter consists of throwing up your hands, doing nothing, and
ignoring the fact that the enemy will be organizing like hell to grab
all the power it can while you rest on your laurels and pooh-pooh as
quislings anyone who still tries to ease the crash."

Ease the crash. Yeah playing political games that neither address the revenue or spending problems in this country to get yet another debt ceiling increase is easing the crash. Or do you think holding the House in 2014 will magically be the turning point in this country?

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 08:47 PM (GZitp)

268 @262 Does an eco-fascist BJ end with a swallow, or are they vegan?

Posted by: Thorvald at December 20, 2012 08:48 PM (1V6Pv)

269 >>>People who point out this lunacy are called truuuuuecons. We don't
dare propose heading to the lifeboats. That might be unpopular.


What lifeboats? This is our country we're talking about here. I don't know about you, but I've got nowhere else I particularly feel like going. This is nonsensical.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 08:49 PM (/COnL)

270 @rebeccagberg Have confirmed from a GOP source in the meeting that it was Rep. Mike Kelly whom I heard yelling; he was trying to rally support for Boehner

‏@russellberman LaTourette said Boehner told the conference they may come back after Christmas or they might not come back at all.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 08:51 PM (YjDyJ)

271 Here is the plan that Mark Levin has put forward . . .

The Republicans would be crucified for "protecting their fat-cat rich cronies" by the media. The fact that they would be reducing taxes for everyone else would not be reported by the government-media complex.

This war isn't going to be won in Washington. It's going to be won in the newsrooms of New York and the studios of Hollywood.

What needs to happen in Washington is in the nature of a rear-guard action. We can't win in Washington but we sure as hell can lose there. That's what the freedom-and-liberty crowd need to understand and act on.

Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 08:51 PM (NaNKB)

272 What kills me is that these tax increases and sequestration are what
Obama signed into law! And somehow it's the republicans fault that
taxes are going up?


We have so deeply accepted the arguments of the media and Dems that meaningful opposition is impossible. We do it completely within their framework.

For whatever reason we cannot get our message out there. This is our biggest problem. No amount of political scheming is going to matter because we are so limited in what is considered possible.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:51 PM (uhAkr)

273 Jager thread got re bumped to the top.

Posted by: Eaton Cox at December 20, 2012 08:52 PM (q177U)

274
should have been more repulsed by her. But I was young, she was young and hot, and she'd blow me every time we hung out without making me call her my girlfriend. So I, uh, kinda overlooked her creepy eco-fascist politics at the time.
=====
You're cleared. Vegans need protein too.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 20, 2012 08:52 PM (MPjT8)

275 Plan B is NOT tax hike. By voting against it, the Dems will be able to claim that the GOP will throw the Middle Class under the bus to try to protect millionaires. And there is NOTHING that the GOP can say or do after that to change the narrative.

It will push the Middle Class right from the free market into "social democracy" -- we will then have become Europe.



Then lower the cap. Hold the vote, if too many GOP vote against it, hold a vote on raising taxes over 250k and go home. If not a single dem will vote for that nor the truecons and it fails, lower it to 60k. Let everybody own it then if democrats won't vote for 60k even. The point is the GOP did the best they could, and the stubborn holdouts can explain why they voted how they did.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 08:55 PM (YUttk)

276 At the time I knew her she believed:

1) In expressing her sexuality and fighting sexism. I supported her brave blowjob-based fight against sexism as much as I could.
2) That NAFTA was an evil right-wing plot.
3) That the planet should have no more than 1 billion people and hopefully the other billions would die of some type of plague or starvation.
4) And that Achtung Baby was good, but Rattle and Hum was better.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 20, 2012 08:55 PM (ZPrif)

277 "When a House GOP member who oppossed Plan B is in a debate with a
"moderate" sounding Dem who says the GOP was willing to increase taxes
on the Middle Class in order to merely support giving tax cuts to
millionaires, how the hell is that House member going to counter that?"

'All we can do is say "Yes". We passed the middle class tax cuts. The Senate refused to vote on them.'

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 08:56 PM (3GtyG)

278 >>>To JeffB. this still all about elections. That fucking ship has sailed,
we ain't winning shit. All we can do is obstruct, we're a fucking
resistance party. How hard is that to understand?


It's an interesting definition of the concept of "resistance" that involves giving Obama and the Democrats literally everything they want.

Because you don't seem to understand how the "fiscal cliff" is structured. If we do absolutely nothing whatsoever, then Obama gets exactly what he wants: taxes go up for everyone, defense spending gets cut, and as an incredible, almost inconceivably perfect bonus the Democrats get to blame the Republicans for it, because they sat back and let EVERYONE'S rates get hiked rather than preserve the Bush rates for 99% of the country and let the richest folks go back to the Clinton rates. It's the perfect demagogic storm: they can go to the people with the message that "hey, these crazy Republicans are so beholden to the richest people in the country that they preferred to punish ALL OF US rather than allow them to pay a little more. They would rather see your taxes rise."

It will kill us because, frankly, it has the ring of truth. Look, I don't even think the "Let it Burn" position here is morally or intellectually defensible (because I think the idea of 'collective punishment' is morally vile regardless of who's practicing it), but I damn well KNOW it's politically indefensible.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 08:57 PM (/COnL)

279 Anyone know when SCOAMF leaves for his vacation in Hawaii? You know, the one that would be a once-in-a-lifetime vacation for the rest of us.

Posted by: Retread at December 20, 2012 08:57 PM (zxitI)

280 I'm heartened that there are still some Republicans that realize that one of the main planks of conservative dogma is that low levels of taxation is good and necessary for a proper functioning economy and society.

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 20, 2012 08:47 PM (0fxcV)


By voting against Plan B, then they will be voting AGAINST low levels of taxation for most people.

Starting Jan. 1st, keeping the rates for the top earners we have now WILL be a tax hike, period. Fighting for that by opposing a tax hike for everyone else is STUPID.

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 20, 2012 08:58 PM (XvHmy)

281 "That's what a lot of the "Let it Burn" seems to me to be about...I think some folks find it grimly invigorating to say "fuck it, let's just burn the whole country down if we can't win," and they excuse their embrace of (let's call it by its true name) nihilism by blandly proclaiming "oh, well the country can't be saved anyway...so let's hasten its death!" That's some seriously Ra's Al Ghul shit right there. I've had fleeting impulses like that myself -- and yes, I am pessimistic in general -- but goddammit I owe to myself, to the girl I love, to the kids I hope to have, not to just give up like that. "

It's not all nihilism.
It's a recognition that total acceptance of American law would mean renouncing God's laws. And in that situation, you obey God and not Caesar.
Because Caesar doesn't endure.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 08:59 PM (3GtyG)

282 #234 Very well put!!!

Posted by: t-dubyah-d at December 20, 2012 08:59 PM (WX65W)

283 What lifeboats? This is our country we're talking
about here. I don't know about you, but I've got nowhere else I
particularly feel like going. This is nonsensical.




Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 08:49 PM (/COnL)


I think you are taking the simile to literally.

The 'lifeboats' I am referring to would be to propose massive cuts to federal spending. That's the only thing that will save us. Doing anything else is just going to sink the ship.

You can argue that's unpopular, but it's necessary. It's far more fruitful to argue for that then to engage in a pointless game.


Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 20, 2012 08:59 PM (uhAkr)

284 Jeff,

Just because you're not bright enough to see ways around things doesn't mean other people are equally dim.

Now, blame the right person. Bohener.

Posted by: Hopeless at December 20, 2012 09:01 PM (d3X9n)

285 If we do absolutely nothing whatsoever, then Obama gets exactly what he wants: taxes go up for everyone, defense spending gets cut, and as an incredible, almost inconceivably perfect bonus the Democrats get to blame the Republicans for it


Then why the fuck did they pass it in the first place?


but I damn well KNOW it's politically indefensible.


That's missing the point entirely. Of course it's not politically defensible.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:03 PM (YUttk)

286 "By voting against Plan B, then they will be voting AGAINST low levels of taxation for most people.

Starting Jan. 1st, keeping the rates for the top earners we have now WILL be a tax hike, period. Fighting for that by opposing a tax hike for everyone else is STUPID."

As Metalgod said-

*230 Why doesn't Boo hoo just hold a vote to extend all of the bush tax rates? If dingy Harry is going to not take it up anyway then there's no risk to any republican. Then throw all the goodies like the amt fix for good measure. While they are at it they can throw in about 1.5 trillion in cuts per year.*

I get the impression having Republicans cave on the opposition to taxes is a feature, not a bug.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 09:03 PM (3GtyG)

287 It strikes me that a bunch of people here arguing for "Let it Burn" (and against Plan B) don't seem to grasp that, if the GOP simply does nothing at all, then taxes are going to go up ANYWAY, for EVERYONE. Because the Bush tax cuts have across-the-board sunset provisions.

So the "oh we need to be pure and say no to anything which doesn't preserve the lower rates for the top 1%!" position is intellectually incoherent because they are going to go up no matter what. The only question is whether the rates for the other 99% of taxpayers will ALSO go up...and the LiB people seem to saying that they're suddenly okay with the idea of raising taxes on nearly every person in America because unless the richest 1% can't also have their low rates preserved, then fuck it, everyone has to suffer.

"Everyone has to suffer" = collective punishment = morally indefensible = suicidal politics.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:03 PM (/COnL)

288 169
Amazing how many idiot TruCons are also SoCons. The GOP would lose a lot if idiots if they were run out of the Party.



Plan B is the best play possible

Posted by: Nama at December 20, 2012 08:19 PM (cryCJ)

______________________________________________
Word.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 20, 2012 09:03 PM (HDgX3)

289 "From 1953 until 1995, the Generals played exhibitions against the
Globetrotters, winning only six games, the last in 1971, and losing more
than 13,000."

Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 09:03 PM (NaNKB)

290 >>>It's the perfect demagogic storm: they can go to the people with the message that "hey, these crazy Republicans are so beholden to the richest people in the country that they preferred to punish ALL OF US rather than allow them to pay a little more. They would rather see your taxes rise.


Yeah, gonna be nice when Democrats have all three houses.

Posted by: Eaton Cox at December 20, 2012 09:03 PM (q177U)

291 Political Hat,

Why do you keep blaming the GOP for the Obama tax hike?

Seems to not make much rational sense, other than you don't want Obama to get the cred for his tax hike.

Posted by: Hopeless at December 20, 2012 09:03 PM (d3X9n)

292 Heh. Japanese samba looks like Mardi Gras.

Posted by: t-dubyah-d at December 20, 2012 09:04 PM (WX65W)

293 @271

Please explain to me how if we follow Mark's proscription we would be crucified for, "protecting fat-cat cronies?"

You are not giving the rich a break you are holding the line on their taxes and lowering the rates on everyone else.

So you seem to be saying that we should raise the taxes on some classes because - fairness.

We would be raising taxes for no purpose other than punishing a class of people because our enemies have gone Alinsky on them.

We would be buying into the class warfare rhetoric of our enemies.

I have posted this before.


Federal Budget: 3.7 Trillion
Federal Revenues: 2.4 Trillion
Federal Deficit: 1.3 Trillion
Obama Proposed spending: 110 Billion (Includes 60 Billion Sandy Bill)
Revenue Generated from taxes on the "rich": 160 Billion (Not taking into account the laffer curve)

This is the results of the Obama and Boehner Plan

1.3T - 0.16T + 0.110T = 1.25Trillion

So by punishing the rich we would have shaved an enormous, gargantuan earth fucking shattering 500 million off of the deficit and would have hurt the very people we need to get this economy moving.


IT'S FUCKING STUPID

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 20, 2012 09:05 PM (0fxcV)

294 "Unless the philosophical purists change their mind over Christmas, then
the GOP will have conceded the 2014 elections, and handed the Dem's a
supermajority in the Senate in '16."

Prior to 1994, the GOP was in the minority in both houses for 40 years. I think they are used to being the minority party, and prefer it that way. The leadership gets its perks and status, the members get their fat salaries and pensions, and none of them is responsible for anything. They make impressive speeches for the folks back home, but the Dems pass whatever they want.

Losing the majority doesn't scare the GOP elite. They want it that way.

Posted by: Agnes Day at December 20, 2012 09:06 PM (scOyJ)

295 @kesgardner Again, the problem with letting it burn: fire is hot, and fire is destructive, and people will accuse the GOP of arson. #realitycheck

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 09:06 PM (YjDyJ)

296 These defectors insist that their conservative principles require that they vote against a spending bill with $242 billion in spending cuts over and above the sequester.

FWIW, I hear a congressman on Hannity saying the cuts weren't real because they were all pushed two to four years in the future.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at December 20, 2012 09:06 PM (azHfB)

297 When a House GOP member who oppossed Plan B is in a
debate with a "moderate" sounding Dem who says the GOP was willing to
increase taxes on the Middle Class in order to merely support giving tax
cuts to millionaires, how the hell is that House member going to
counter that?



The damage is too great. It is the fiscal equivalent of pulling an Akin.

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 20, 2012 08:39 PM (XvHmy)

__________________________
Very well put.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 20, 2012 09:07 PM (HDgX3)

298 >>>Just because you're not bright enough to see ways around things doesn't mean other people are equally dim.

I think I'm pretty bright, but hey: maybe I just lack political imagination.

That's why I'm willing to listen to you propose an alternate solution. Keep in mind you have some real world facts on the ground to deal with, namely (1) the fact that, unless a deal gets struck before January 1st, the entire nation is going to have its taxes increased automatically, by operation of sunset provision; (2) the fact that a controlling faction within the GOP seems willing to fuck over 99% of the country either to preserve its notional purity or because their attitude is "I'd rather see EVERYONE have to pay more taxes than just the top 1%," and how that will inevitably play with the nation at large.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:08 PM (/COnL)

299 and the LiB people seem to saying that they're suddenly okay with the idea of raising taxes on nearly every person in America because unless the richest 1% can't also have their low rates preserved, then fuck it, everyone has to suffer.


Dude, everyone has to suffer. The 1% don't have enough money to pay for this shit.


The people voted for tax increases.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:09 PM (YUttk)

300 It's not all nihilism. It's a recognition that total acceptance of American law would mean renouncing God's laws. And in that situation, you obey God and not Caesar. Because Caesar doesn't endure.
Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 08:59 PM (3GtyG)

yes, exactly. thank you

Posted by: Shoey at December 20, 2012 09:10 PM (m6OUa)

301 Please explain to me how if we follow Mark's proscription we would be crucified for, "protecting fat-cat cronies?"

Easy. The media won't report honestly on what the Republicans are doing, and spin it all as if the Democrats were crusading for all that is right and good.

Where have you been? That's a huge part of the reason why we're where we are in the first place. The media is in the tank.

It's not "cynical" if it's an accurate description of what has happened, and what will continue to happen until we somehow figure out how to restore some kind of balance in the media.

Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 09:10 PM (NaNKB)

302 "Tea Party Votes for Higher Taxes By Not Voting"

"Tea Party Raises Taxes"

"Tea Party Agrees With President"

Posted by: Tomorrows MSM Headlines Today at December 20, 2012 09:11 PM (RgWBf)

303 LONG GAME PEOPLE!

We don't die on a hill for tax hikes on the top 0.2%. Democrats win because they can easily paint Republicans as the party of millionaires and billionaires. Pulling this type of shit is the equivalent of $1B of ads that the Democrats don't have to run between now and 2014. Every story on the news tonight and tomorrow will say Republicans didn't want to give 99.8% of the people a tax cut because they couldn't give the top 0.2% a cut as well.

The optics for this are indescribably bad for Republicans.

And the biggest question I have is for Boehner? WTF were you thinking making the big Plan B announcement to the world before you had the votes lined up? I mean come on man, county council members have better political skills than this. You're the fucking Speaker of the House. Jeezuz.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 20, 2012 09:11 PM (HDgX3)

304 >>>Losing the majority doesn't scare the GOP elite. They want it that way.

You need to check again. The so-called "elite" in the GOP is pushing as hard as it can to avoid this meltdown, and avoid costing the GOP the House. It's some of the so-called "True Conservative" Tea Party-types (i.e. Huelskamp, Amash, the SC delegation, etc.) who are the ones playing with matches and entertaining fantasies of political arson.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:11 PM (/COnL)

305 FWIW, I hear a congressman on Hannity saying the cuts weren't real because they were all pushed two to four years in the future.


Again, these same people pushed the sequester in the first place.


I find that entirely possible that they're just trying to stealth kick the can again. There budget cuts ended up being mostly phoney too.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:12 PM (YUttk)

306 "I'd rather see EVERYONE have to pay more taxes than just the top 1%,"
and how that will inevitably play with the nation at large."

So fucking what? They should pay more if they aren't going to be realistic in addressing our problems. The majority of the nation thinks we can on spending without fucking consequences, and you want to enable them.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 09:12 PM (GZitp)

307 Question:

Now that we've ditched Plan B--does anybody here think there are insufficient Republican squishes for Obama just to ram through an even worse deal by picking off scared moderates? (potentially even our leadership...thereby getting what he wants and claiming bipartisan support.)

I'm not confident of that at all.

Posted by: AD at December 20, 2012 09:12 PM (Ysek9)

308 We don't die on a hill for tax hikes on the top 0.2%.


But we don't die on any hill. When you put it that way, fuck it. Why not die here. Can't run forever.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:13 PM (YUttk)

309 >>>It's a recognition that total acceptance of American law would mean
renouncing God's laws. And in that situation, you obey God and not
Caesar.

Because Caesar doesn't endure.


"God's laws?" What fatuousness. Where in the Bible did God or Jesus opine about the proper size of government? Or tax brackets? How did God even ENTER into this conversation?

In fact, it seems to me the most relevant quote I can remember from the Gospels was a certain someone saying "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's; render unto God that which is God's."

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:15 PM (/COnL)

310 299 Dude, everyone has to suffer. The 1% don't have enough money to pay for this shit.

The people voted for tax increases.


So protecting the current tax rates for as many people as possible is a liberal proposition but allowing taxes to go up on everyone is conservative? I do not understand that.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 09:15 PM (YjDyJ)

311 Posted by: AD at December 20, 2012 09:12 PM (Ysek9)

That sounds like a plausible, bordering on likely, future scenario.

Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 09:15 PM (NaNKB)

312 Easy. The media won't report honestly on what the Republicans are doing, and spin it all as if the Democrats were crusading for all that is right and good.


Um, won't they do that no matter what we do?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:15 PM (YUttk)

313 I simply cannot support raising taxes for the sake of raising taxes.

If the current GOP leadership and party cannot explain their position, then it is time to get new leaders or form a new party.

We have been told time and again you hardliners must be reasonable on issue after issue so we bent, WELL NOW OUR LEADERS WERE ABOUT TO GIVE UP ONE OF OUR BASE PRINCIPLES BECAUSE THEY ARE MORONS!!


And not in a good way.

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 20, 2012 09:18 PM (0fxcV)

314 Easy. The media won't report honestly on what the Republicans are doing,
and spin it all as if the Democrats were crusading for all that is
right and good.


Don't get too worked up. On either side, we say what can be said about the way the Republicans are voting on this.

It doesn't matter. The media will either ignore it or spin it against us NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS.

Personally, I think this was a good deal, given that President Tax Increase just got re-elected. But in the long run, it doesn't matter one way or the other because...

...in the Obama era, there are no consequences for bad choices. Obama and the Democrats aren't held responsible for high unemployment, high gas prices, high food prices, global disasters or their own gun control measures.

So chill out, it wasn't going to make a difference anyway.

Hell, if the PR was going to be useful, answer why the Dems didn't vote for it. Why do they want to protect millionaires?

Posted by: AmishDude at December 20, 2012 09:18 PM (xSegX)

315 So protecting the current tax rates for as many people as possible is a liberal proposition but allowing taxes to go up on everyone is conservative? I do not understand that.


I repeat: The 1% do not actually have that much money.


If we raise taxes on just the 1%, we can tax them to death or exile and it will tide us about 8 months and they will be gone.


Then what do you do? Taxes on everybody else anyway?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:19 PM (YUttk)

316 >>>So fucking what? They should pay more if they aren't going to be
realistic in addressing our problems. The majority of the nation thinks
we can on spending without fucking consequences, and you want to enable
them.


The "they" you are referring to as if it's some Other Group of People includes me. It includes you. It includes every single taxpayer in the country, a significant number of which voted Republican in last election and those before it. Are they to be wantonly punished so you can teach some other people a lesson? This isn't even pour encourager les autres, because you'd happily hurt people who already agreed with you.

Seriously, this is the language of collective punishment. It's the language of totalitarianism. It's vile, and I'm going to assume that you haven't really thought it through, so I won't jump down your throat just yet.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:19 PM (/COnL)

317 "So protecting the current tax rates for as many people as possible is a
liberal proposition but allowing taxes to go up on everyone is
conservative? I do not understand that."

What's conservative about taxing the rich only, while pretending they're addressing our spending problem?

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 09:19 PM (GZitp)

318 To be honest I really don't see how any of this kabuki shit matters.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:19 PM (YUttk)

319 311 That sounds like a plausible, bordering on likely, future scenario.

Which is yet another reason why the SCOAMT is quite pleased with tonight's outcome.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 09:20 PM (YjDyJ)

320 "Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:19 PM (/COnL)"

Oh I see, we should all play along with fucking political game so you don't have to suffer in the near future. It's o.k to pretend everything is going to o.k. in the future so we can enjoy this momentary tax rate and who knows, maybe we can hold the house in 2014 so we can keep on pretending we're doing something.
You know what really effects tax rates? Having a fucking job.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 09:24 PM (GZitp)

321 313 We have been told time and again you hardliners must be reasonable on issue after issue so we bent, WELL NOW OUR LEADERS WERE ABOUT TO GIVE UP ONE OF OUR BASE PRINCIPLES BECAUSE THEY ARE MORONS!!

Again, how is allowing tax rates to increase for everyone the more conservative option between the two?

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 09:24 PM (YjDyJ)

322 Not passing Plan B is terrible. I hate belonging to the party of stupid, but I can never associate with the party of corrupt. Well done Republicans, now you look like all you care about is millionaires and billionaires. The press will vivisect you. [Golf Clap]

Posted by: ErikL at December 20, 2012 09:25 PM (f16c6)

323 ‏@amylutz4 Elections have consequences. We can't expect to get anything we want. Plan B was our last shot at lessening massive tax hikes. #tcot

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 09:26 PM (YjDyJ)

324 176
This will not end well...
It ended last November. We're just waiting for the coronation now.

It ended in November 2008, if not earlier. We just didn't realize it until it happened again in 2012. The America we thought we were living in is gone.

Posted by: Agnes Day at December 20, 2012 09:26 PM (scOyJ)

325 @320:"Oh I see, we should all play along with fucking political game so you don't have to suffer in the near future."
Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 09:24 PM (GZitp)
---

What do you envision will happen if the GOP follows your strategy for, say, the next 4 years? I want to hear a blow-by-blow of how you expect things to work out better under your plan.


Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 09:28 PM (Y5I9o)

326 Plan B was our last shot at lessening massive tax hikes.


That no one believed was going to work anyway?


What are the chances of the senate passing this Plan B?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:28 PM (YUttk)

327 Don't get too worked up. On either side, we say what can be said about the way the Republicans are voting on this.

Oh, I'm not particularly worked up.

The next four years are going to suck bigtime, and there will be much damage done to this country.

Who was it though who said "there is a lot of ruin in a country?"

The Dems will overreach at some point.

Meanwhile, I still say we need to concentrate on the Long March through the institutions of culture-shaping: primarily the media and education industries. And we have to be clever about it--just "going back to the way things were" won't work. We need to become subversives, somehow, now that the leftists ARE the Establishment. Think of the '50's and '60's in reverse. Where are our Beat poets. Who's going to be our "counterculture?" How do we reach the minds of the children and adolescents the way we must do in order to restore the Republic?

What happened today is really not that important in the wider view.

Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 09:29 PM (NaNKB)

328 This is, apparently, Republicans last shot at having the optics of throwing the 1% under the bus before taxes goes up on everyone regardless.


Amirite?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:29 PM (YUttk)

329 @321

It's not but we are left with Sophies Choice aren't we.


Posted by: General Woundwort at December 20, 2012 09:31 PM (0fxcV)

330 “Here’s the fine point of it: if a lifeguard sees 10 swimmers drowning off his beach and he can only save nine of them, it doesn’t mean that he’s drowned the tenth one. And no lifeguard would be worth a damn if he said: ‘As a lifeguard I maintain the principle that nobody should drown off my beach; and since I can’t save all 10, I won’t save any because that would go against my principles."

~Rep. Tom McClintock, R-CA

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 09:31 PM (YjDyJ)

331 314 Easy. The media won't report honestly on what the Republicans are doing,
and spin it all as if the Democrats were crusading for all that is
right and good.

Don't get too worked up. On either side, we say what can be said about the way the Republicans are voting on this.

It doesn't matter. The media will either ignore it or spin it against us NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS.

Personally, I think this was a good deal, given that President Tax Increase just got re-elected. But in the long run, it doesn't matter one way or the other because...

...in the Obama era, there are no consequences for bad choices. Obama and the Democrats aren't held responsible for high unemployment, high gas prices, high food prices, global disasters or their own gun control measures.

So chill out, it wasn't going to make a difference anyway.

Hell, if the PR was going to be useful, answer why the Dems didn't vote for it. Why do they want to protect millionaires?

Exactly! If the dems refused to vote for it how come its not they who want to protect millionaires? Just vote to extend all current tax rates and when the dems refuse to take it up then frame it as the dems want to let taxes go up on the 99% just so the president can claim a victory in his quest to further divide us with his pathetic class war. Is this shit really that difficult? The GOP needs new consultants.

Posted by: Metalgod at December 20, 2012 09:32 PM (YgIJ8)

332 "What do you envision will happen if the GOP follows
your strategy for, say, the next 4 years? I want to hear a blow-by-blow
of how you expect things to work out better under your plan.




Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 20, 2012 09:28 PM (Y5I9o) "

It ain't going to better but it doesn't prolong the agony thus making the impending collapse even worse. How long do you think we can keep borrowing, printing and spending? I'd rather the nation realize it's folly then go pretending.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 09:33 PM (GZitp)

333 @dcbigjohn its sort of amazing that the House was able to make the Senate look like a well functioning legislative body today.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 09:34 PM (YjDyJ)

334 " “Here’s the fine point of it: if a lifeguard sees 10 swimmers drowning off his beach and he can only save nine of them, it doesn’t mean that he’s drowned the tenth one. And no lifeguard would be worth a damn if he said: ‘As a lifeguard I maintain the principle that nobody should drown off my beach; and since I can’t save all 10, I won’t save any because that would go against my principles."

With as much effort, the GOP could have voted, again, to cut all taxes.
Boehner tried to play class warfare because he thought saving 9/10 looked better than wearing himself out for that 10th kid. Nobody liked her anyhow. Always too stuck up.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 09:34 PM (3GtyG)

335 How come Bush got blamed for everything, and I mean everything, when the dems controlled the senate and the house but Bammy isn't going to get blamed for anything even though the dems control two thirds of the government?

Posted by: Metalgod at December 20, 2012 09:36 PM (YgIJ8)

336 So expecting Republicans to resist tax increases on any group, even the sooper eevil 1%, despite their promises to the to do just that was not the hill to die on, right?

Posted by: jeannebodine at December 20, 2012 09:36 PM (x0dlI)

337 >>>“Here’s the fine point of it: if a lifeguard sees 10 swimmers drowning
off his beach and he can only save nine of them, it doesn’t mean that
he’s drowned the tenth one. And no lifeguard would be worth a damn if he
said: ‘As a lifeguard I maintain the principle that nobody should drown
off my beach; and since I can’t save all 10, I won’t save any because
that would go against my principles."



~Rep. Tom McClintock, R-CA


People, this is Tom McClintock speaking. TOM MCCLINTOCK. Anybody going to question his conservative bona fides?

Well yes, apparently so. #334 is doing so already.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:37 PM (/COnL)

338 Again, why not inject some clarity? Let everyone stand where ever they are.


Hold a vote to save all the tax cuts. If it fails, hold a vote for under 1 mil. If it fails, hold a vote for 500k. 250k. 100k. 50k.


Hold all the votes regardless, pass multiple bills and punt it to the Senate. Democrats won the elections.


Pass everything you can pass through the house and let democrats choose.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:37 PM (YUttk)

339 "God's laws?" What fatuousness. Where in the Bible did God or Jesus opine about the proper size of government? Or tax brackets? How did God even ENTER into this conversation?"
Posted by: Jeff B.

I was responding to your discussion of the broader "let it burn" clique.

*"The danger, unfortunately, is that I do think some elements in the TrueCon/SoCon section have started indulging in weirdly beguiling apocalyptic fantasies as a way of coping with the pain of losing the election (and, for certain SoCons, coping the dislocation that manifest long-term changes in cultural have caused: "rape babies are gift from God" is never again going to be a prescription for winning elections, and gay marriage isn't going anywhere).
That's what a lot of the "Let it Burn" seems to me to be about..."

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 09:37 PM (3GtyG)

340 311 That sounds like a plausible, bordering on likely, future scenario.

Which is yet another reason why the SCOAMT is quite pleased with tonight's outcome.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 09:20 PM (YjDyJ)

If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that we have a lot of moderate squishes in Congress. For this scenario (us caving in anyway) not to happen, there would have to be less than 17 scared squishes in the House that can be swayed.

The anti-Plan B wing is being much confident than I would have thought in thinking we have less than 17 people who will cross over.

I generally consider myself in the let it burn camp. As a matter of strategy, though, this seems like a bad trade-off to me.

Posted by: AD at December 20, 2012 09:39 PM (Ysek9)

341 "People, this is Tom McClintock speaking. TOM MCCLINTOCK. Anybody going to question his conservative bona fides?

Well yes, apparently so. #334 is doing so already."

I've said for some time that "conservatism" is become a social appellation like Goth or surfer, rather than an ideological movement. You know, organized around ideals.

"Is raising taxes, conservative?"
"Well- wait, who's talking?"

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 09:39 PM (3GtyG)

342 I should've asked Ace to let me have the keys as a temporary cob-logger. At least then I'd be able to piss off hundreds of people rather than just tens.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:40 PM (/COnL)

343 This seems somehow apropos:

ARTHUR: Run away! Run away!

ALL KNIGHTS: (taking up cry) Run away! Run away!

[They run down from the cave and hide, regrouping behind some rocks. TIM, some way away, is pointing at them and laughing derisively.]

TIM: Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha.

ARTHUR: Who did we lose?

LAUNCELOT: Sir Gawain.

GALAHAD: Ector.

ARTHUR: And Bors. Five.

GALAHAD: Three, sir!

ARTHUR: Three. Well, we'll not risk another frontal assault. That rabbit's dynamite.

ROBIN: Would it help to confuse him if we ran away more.

ARTHUR: Shut up. Go and change your armour.

[ROBIN leaves, walking strangely.]

GALAHAD: Let us taunt it. It may become so cross that it will make a mistake.

ARTHUR: Like what?

[GALAHAD cannot find a suitable answer to this.]

GALAHAD: Do we have any bows?

ARTHUR: No.

LAUNCELOT: We have the Holy Hand Grenade.

ROBIN: The what?

ARTHUR: The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. 'Tis one of the sacred relics Brother Maynard always carries with him.



Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 09:43 PM (NaNKB)

344 "People, this is Tom McClintock speaking. TOM MCCLINTOCK. Anybody going to question his conservative bona fides?

Well yes, apparently so. #334 is doing so already.


Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:37 PM (/COnL)"
Oh for fuck sake, it was the Boehner's, Cantor's, McClintocks's and all the other fucks that think political theater is the answer that voted for the impending "fiscal cliff". If they're so goddammed smart why the fuck did we get to this point in the first place?


Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2012 09:43 PM (GZitp)

345 If it's not bullshit, there's no reason Boehner has to protect the republicans.


Hang them out then.


If he can't get enough republicans, start lowering the number until you can steal a few dems. Go as high as you can go given the realities. Punt to the senate and go home.


Since Plan B is mostly just optics anyway, why is it fixed to 1 number? 98%? 99% is too ideological, 95% is selling out?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:43 PM (YUttk)

346 Plan B was our last shot at lessening massive tax hikes.
-
That no one believed was going to work anyway?


Oh, I didn't think Obama was going to sign Plan B anyway. I think he intends to go balls out over the cliff unless he gets full capitulation. I thought it was a good idea just to provide us cover and to provide the squishes cover to keep them from bailing.

Posted by: AD at December 20, 2012 09:45 PM (Ysek9)

347 I think point #1 that we need to hammer into politicians is:

Stop doing this shit the week before Christmas, for God's sake!

Of course:

Christmas . . .

God . . .


Posted by: filbert at December 20, 2012 09:47 PM (NaNKB)

348 I think he intends to go balls out over the cliff unless he gets full capitulation.


I actually like the fiscal cliff. I like sequestration. It was like the best thing they ever did. Real fucking cuts. Exchanged for tax increases, but hey, that's a real compromise that actually at least feints toward addressing the debt issue.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:48 PM (YUttk)

349 Jeff B, you make a lot of sense. All these people opposed to Plan B remind me of the people who stayed home and didn't vote for Romney, hence now we have an Obama that doesn't have to worry about being re-elected. Just watch him now......

Posted by: ErikL at December 20, 2012 09:49 PM (f16c6)

350 This pretty much sums it up for me:

@robertcostaNRO: I love this comment from a senior, departing House member: "Boehner was
trying to play chess and the caucus was playing checkers."

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:49 PM (/COnL)

351 And not sell out tax increases where we pretend we can just make the Koch brothers and Walmart pay for it.


Real kick me in the ass tax increases like the kind that are fucking unavoidable anyway if we keep spending like this.


Sequestration is like the first bill of my life time that doesn't try to maintain the Potemkin facade of a free lunch and is actually kind sorta semi responsible lawmaking.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:49 PM (YUttk)

352 I love when our party dies everything it can to make the President look like a hero. >:-(

Posted by: ErikL at December 20, 2012 09:51 PM (f16c6)

353 334 With as much effort, the GOP could have voted, again, to cut all taxes. Boehner tried to play class warfare because he thought saving 9/10 looked better than wearing himself out for that 10th kid.

Plan B was offered to (1) show that the Democrats are hypocritical obstructionists and (2) protect as many taxpayers as possible. But some members of the Stupid Party decided it best to weaken the Speaker's hand so that we get an even worse deal than we would have otherwise.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 09:51 PM (YjDyJ)

354 Well hey people, at least there's some good news: Mark Sanford has announced that he's running for Congress, to fill Tim Scott's soon-to-be-vacant seat in South Carolina.

I'm sure that'll end well.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:55 PM (/COnL)

355 What's Obama going to do, really?


Cut taxes on his own and take credit? And then keep spending like this? Doom.


Raise taxes on everyone? Doom.


Raise taxes on just the rich? Doom for the rich, then Doom for the rest.


Unless you really think the free money train can just go on forever... then why even oppose it?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 09:56 PM (YUttk)

356 "Plan B was offered to (1) show that the Democrats are hypocritical obstructionists and (2) protect as many taxpayers as possible. But some members of the Stupid Party decided it best to weaken the Speaker's hand so that we get an even worse deal than we would have otherwise."

1. That's been demonstrated by their failure to vote on House proposals. As of tonight, the House can still say, "we voted only to cut taxes. That wasn't good enough for Harry Reid".

2. "as many as possible" would be 100% of taxpayers. If you want to argue that wasn't possible because Harry Reid said no... Harry Reid said no to Plan B too.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 09:57 PM (3GtyG)

357 Neither BYU or San Diego look like they should even be in post-season play.

zzzZZZzzz

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 20, 2012 09:57 PM (QupBk)

358 Fuck it all. Let it burn.

Posted by: Ernie McCracken at December 20, 2012 09:58 PM (ZETiK)

359
I have no illusions of the sequestration, should it happen, affecting the SCOAMTT's pet dependants/supporters.
What's to say he doesn't just EO an emergency funding of such and such for human rights or for the children?

Besides, it's just all electronic transactions anyway with open ended QE and the Fed, right?

Unless he needs a crisis. Yeah, that's it.

Posted by: Justamom at December 20, 2012 09:59 PM (Sptt8)

360 I fight a losing battle at work trying to defend Republicans. People say that I seem smart, and ask how I can vote for the right. It's crap like this that just depresses me. We have so many stupid candidates. I hate it.

Posted by: ErikL at December 20, 2012 10:01 PM (f16c6)

361 People say that I seem smart, and ask how I can vote for the right.

Ask them to do arithmetic.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 20, 2012 10:02 PM (QupBk)

362 We really are the Stupid Party. These TruCons probably cost the Republicans the House in 2014.

I feel politically homeless. I'm a pragmatic conservative, not some quixotic dingbat that likes falling on my own sword for every political issue that comes down the pike. The fact that a "conservative" passed up on locking in lower taxes for 99.8% of the population and handed Obama and Reid a huge victory is maddening to say the least.

I'm almost wondering if the best strategy for conservatives would be to join the Democrat Party and pull it in a Centrist direction, there's simply too many fuck ups in the GOP that have no interest in really governing or making a difference, they just want to shoot spitball from afar in their gerrymandered red districts.

Posted by: Jeepers at December 20, 2012 10:03 PM (XDRsa)

363 This will not end well...
It ended last November. We're just waiting for the coronation now.

It
ended in November 2008, if not earlier. We just didn't realize it until
it happened again in 2012. The America we thought we were living in is
gone.

Yep. I really don't understand how Bo got so many votes. All those young people who voted for this disaster are going to have to learn some HARD lessons. I guess that is what it takes sometimes to overcome brainwashing.

Posted by: carolina at December 20, 2012 10:04 PM (EFeV9)

364 "The fact that a "conservative" passed up on locking in lower taxes for 99.8% of the population and handed Obama and Reid a huge victory is maddening to say the least."

Harry Reid already said Plan B would not get a vote in the Senate. They're not at all desperate to avoid going over the cliff. They've already adjourned.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 10:09 PM (3GtyG)

365 I'm not quite sure how I feel about this, as everybody acknowledges it would have failed in the Senate as well.

However, I can tell you that all this bitching and moaning about how some people on the internet called you a RINO is really grating on me (it's one of the reasons I occasionally have to take a break from AP over at Hot Air as well).

I'm sorry if some people you don't know disagreed with you about politics and used a rather weak insult while doing so. I really am.

But this "woe is me" shit is really grating. Get over it.

Posted by: Johnny at December 20, 2012 10:09 PM (tGUu3)

366 >>>I'm almost wondering if the best strategy for conservatives would be to
join the Democrat Party and pull it in a Centrist direction, there's
simply too many fuck ups in the GOP that have no interest in really
governing or making a difference, they just want to shoot spitball from
afar in their gerrymandered red districts.


Let's not spew crazy-talk, now.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 10:11 PM (/COnL)

367 Vote to keep the current tax rates in place and go the fuck home!!!!

Posted by: Metalgod at December 20, 2012 10:13 PM (YgIJ8)

368 Toby928 - yeah, we are sensible, logical, and honest. The left are emotional, but the sad fact is that emotions are powerful and often win. I feel exactly like Jeepers #362. Totally depressed.

Posted by: ErikL at December 20, 2012 10:14 PM (f16c6)

369 356 2. "as many as possible" would be 100% of taxpayers. If you want to argue that wasn't possible because Harry Reid said no... Harry Reid said no to Plan B too.

But we knew/know that they were/are going to allow the tax cuts for top earners to expire. What this bill was doing was admitting that reality while showing that the Ds are hypocrites for opposing a version of their own policy proposal.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 10:15 PM (YjDyJ)

370 303 LONG GAME PEOPLE!We don't die on a hill for..." this or that, or the other,
in fact we never stand on a hill.
hill-standing is crazy

Posted by: Secession of the Plebs at December 20, 2012 10:16 PM (m6OUa)

371
"Cut taxes on his own and take credit? And then keep spending like this? Doom."

The timeline on Doom though could be years ordecades awaythough.

The bond market hasn't coughed up any hairballs yet, and the U.S. government has been pretty brazen in its unwillingness to seriously tackle entitlements and discretionary spending. Furthermore the Federal Reserve stands ready to monetize something like 90% our current debt issuance.

President Obama is likely to be long gone when the caca hits the fan.


Posted by: Ernie McCracken at December 20, 2012 10:16 PM (ZETiK)

372 Some people do not believe the Free Money Train ever stops.


Some people do, and believe the end is horrible. But not enough people. Most people have decided for better or worse to find out how it ends. We decided this years ago. There are some murmurs about a bridge being out up ahead, but the train keeps going and more keep boarding and nobody ever jumps off.


So let's fast forward and see if it ends. To eleventy billion trillion, and beyond. 100% tax rates, 0 taxes, whatever they want.


This much is absolutely certain, no matter what you do, no matter what the optics, this train isn't going to ever stop, unless we find it out where it ends.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 10:23 PM (YUttk)

373 the sad fact is that emotions are powerful and often win

The math always wins in the end. The amount of debt we have, and the amount projected is so mind-boggling, it makes me despair. Next year's interest on our debt will be near five hundred thousand million dollars. More than the total Federal spending when I was in college.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 20, 2012 10:23 PM (QupBk)

374 "How come Bush got blamed for everything, and I mean everything, when the
dems controlled the senate and the house but Bammy isn't going to get
blamed for anything even though the dems control two thirds of the
government?"

Because while the Republicans control 1/2 of the House, the Left controls the rest of government, the media, education, entertainment, religion, and every other institution of society. For most of the population, the Left defines reality.

Posted by: Agnes Day at December 20, 2012 10:25 PM (scOyJ)

375 toby928 #373 - yep exactly right I think we both agree! But the party of emotion will beat the party of math with the media assisting all the way. The only good news lately is Jake Tapper going to CNN. it's almost like they want to be a real network.

Posted by: ErikL at December 20, 2012 10:27 PM (f16c6)

376 But we knew/know that they were/are going to allow the tax cuts for top earners to expire. What this bill was doing was admitting that reality while showing that the Ds are hypocrites for opposing a version of their own policy proposal.


How do these republicans even stop that?


Pass a bill with no cuts at all, vote on the Plan B for the 98%. If not 1 democrat votes for it to make up for the defectors, how is that really any different?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 10:28 PM (YUttk)

377 The amount of debt we have, and the amount projected is so mind-boggling, it makes me despair.


It makes me hopeful. Why would you even want to save that monstrosity? So they could do it again?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 10:30 PM (YUttk)

378 the Big Lie here is that the Senate will not pass any budget passed by the House, the Media is NEVER giong to drive that home in the public's mind.there is a way to deal with liars.don't play their silly little games.

Posted by: Secession of the Plebs at December 20, 2012 10:32 PM (m6OUa)

379 367>> "Vote to keep the current tax rates in place and go the fuck home!!!!"

The House did that months ago. It has been sitting (along with many other Bills) on Reids desk.
Newt just said the same thing: go home House GOP.
Then come back and have MANY hearings about all of the waste in govt. That would keep them busy for years!

Posted by: carolina at December 20, 2012 10:32 PM (jjmSa)

380 Two more things that irk me about this entire situation are McCarthy's problem with counting votes and the indecisiveness of some members. This is not the first time McCarthy has been overconfident before a big vote and the fact that some conservatives refused to commit should have been a warning to wait and/or send the bill back to Rules and amend it. As for the members, making tough decisions is part of the job description.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 10:41 PM (YjDyJ)

381 .2% of Americans would pay more.

They also make a million dollars a year.

But let's die for those people.

Stupid, stupid.

Because God forbid we should the middle class that we are not the party of millionaires.

Must extend copyright. Must protect millionaires from tax increases. Must never bring up taxes on Holllywood or Trial Lawyers.

I don't think I want to be Republican any more. They are a party of really rich people who just cannot stand to see any other rich person pay a cent more or have less access to DC. They are simply crony capitalism part 2.

Oh, and if you want to whine to me about spending cuts, then show them to me. You will not get spending cuts on entitlements without making some face-saving gesture where people who make more than one million dollars a year pay 40% on income above that level.

p.s. Tax rates are easily lowered. Making Obama look bad is far less easy.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 10:44 PM (dZQh7)

382 Two more things that irk me about this entire situation are McCarthy's problem with counting votes and the indecisiveness of some members.


Who cares? What happens if they vote on a bill and it fails? Oh, right - they look silly.


Their approval rating is about 11%. Everyone already knows they're a bunch of clowns. A phobia for nay votes hardly makes me reconsider.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 10:45 PM (YUttk)

383 Here's the problem, when Obama and Reid trumpet "Republicans were willing to sacrifice 99% of Americans and the economy to protect millionaires from paying slightly more in taxes" they'll actually be right, at least for a handful of dingbats.

Of course Reid and Obama are doing the same thing, but we gave up the high ground with this vote.

And let's not pretend this was over principle, this was fear that some TruCon Teatard in a red district would say "my opponent supported tax increases" even though nothing could be further from the truth. Extending current tax rates to as many people as possible is not raising taxes.

Posted by: Jeepers at December 20, 2012 10:45 PM (XDRsa)

384 "I feel politically homeless. I'm a pragmatic conservative, not some quixotic dingbat that likes falling on my own sword for every political issue that comes down the pike. The fact that a "conservative" passed up on locking in lower taxes for 99.8% of the population and handed Obama and Reid a huge victory is maddening to say the least.

I'm almost wondering if the best strategy for conservatives would be to join the Democrat Party and pull it in a Centrist direction, there's simply too many fuck ups in the GOP that have no interest in really governing or making a difference, they just want to shoot spitball from afar in their gerrymandered red districts."

So I am not the only one who is thinking about this. I felt sick to my stomach. But better than chaining oneself to the kamikaze brigade.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 10:48 PM (dZQh7)

385 Of course Reid and Obama are doing the same thing, but we gave up the high ground with this vote.


Why?


Why does every vote have to come from Republicans? Why not offer them tax hikes over $250k?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 10:49 PM (YUttk)

386 376 How do these republicans even stop that?

How can they prevent the tax increase on top earners? No idea, but some of the committed noes seem to think they can despite the fact that none of them have offered a practical plan on that score.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 10:49 PM (YjDyJ)

387 "And let's not pretend this was over principle, this was fear that some TruCon Teatard in a red district would say "my opponent supported tax increases" even though nothing could be further from the truth. Extending current tax rates to as many people as possible is not raising taxes."

He'd win the 0.2% of millionaire income earners in his district. Probably some trial lawyers, a hollywood celeb, and a basketball player...key, key GOP supporters.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 10:50 PM (dZQh7)

388 How can they prevent the tax increase on top earners?


No, no, no. Harry Reid isn't going to pass Plan B is he? Or is he? You can't have it both ways. How do 15 republicans voting no wreck the optics of no democrats voting yes?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 10:52 PM (YUttk)

389 To be fair, this is why the Congress never looks good vs. the Executive branch. Obama can have some photo shots with a kid in a spiderman outfit, give a speech, and look all cool and focused.

Though, Tip O'Neil did a good job, IIRC.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 10:52 PM (dZQh7)

390
He'd win the 0.2% of millionaire income earners
in his district. Probably some trial lawyers, a hollywood celeb, and a
basketball player...key, key GOP supporters.

Posted by: Sexypig

That's the funniest part. These GOP members are willing to go down in flames to protect probably 20 voters in their district who are likely liberals screaming that they want to pay higher taxes.

Posted by: Jeepers at December 20, 2012 10:58 PM (XDRsa)

391 "Conservatives were right about Obama during the election"- http://bit.ly/USXLJL

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 11:02 PM (YjDyJ)

392 (Or, more accurately, the least bad deal possible.) Conservatives just have to recognize – as they did during the election – that there’s no way they’ll get anywhere near what they want with Obama as president and Democrats in control of the Senate.


Hmm.


So what gives, c'mon, let me on it. If we recognize that, who gives a shit about 20 hold outs? We need 20 democrats. Why not try $500,000? Will you jack up taxes on the whole economy out of spite to spare the $500k-999k earners, just not the $1M earners?


Is Boehners 98% proposal supposed to be realistic compromise capable of actually happening in the first place 80sBaby or isn't it?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:08 PM (YUttk)

393 How is any bill that can't get 20 dems in the house going to pass the Senate anyway?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:08 PM (YUttk)

394 392 Is Boehners 98% proposal supposed to be realistic compromise capable of actually happening in the first place 80sBaby or isn't it?

I would say there was potential for something close to it if the Rs had stood firm and been united on the issue.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 11:18 PM (YjDyJ)

395 "It's a smart play by Speaker Boehner and his caucus to pass this legislation and then head home for the holidays"

So, Gabe, are you ready to eat these words since Boehner and the GOP leadership were humiliated today by their own caucus? Still think it was the smart play?

Posted by: Jordan at December 20, 2012 11:24 PM (Hz1zc)

396 I would say there was potential for something close to it if the Rs had stood firm and been united on the issue.


Please explain.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:24 PM (YUttk)

397 So, Gabe, are you ready to eat these words since Boehner and the GOP leadership were humiliated today by their own caucus?


Why do you feel so humiliated?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:25 PM (YUttk)

398 "How is any bill that can't get 20 dems in the house going to pass the Senate anyway?"

You don't need to pass it. You just need the headline that it passed the House.

Too bad no one on our teams thinks about media, PR, image etc.

No, its all about saving millionaires a few bucks.

I get the priniciple issue. But we lost the election.

The voters can be thrown a small bone, a nod in their direction.

If the Truuuuuu Cons had bumped millionaire's taxes but fought hard for good solid spending cuts, no one would remember the tax increase.

Instead, we will get trounced in the media and probably not get anything. 2014 will not be a fun year. But hey 2008-2012 have sucked too.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 11:26 PM (dZQh7)

399 "If the Truuuuuu Cons had bumped millionaire's taxes but fought hard for good solid spending cuts, no one would remember the tax increase. "

1. Who are you kidding? You think Dems didn't run that "Read my lips....NO...NEW...TAXES" clip?

2. Boehner told the world he got good solid cuts out of the last deal - he only increased the baseline 3%!

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 11:30 PM (3GtyG)

400 'Conservatives should view current “fiscal cliff” negotiations as a triage operation.'

THIS.

Or, just go over the cliff, don't raise the debt limit, and be principled that way. I might be okay with that. Not sure how 2014 would look.

But I'd like to go over the cliff while throwing blame on Obama not just pointing at myself and then jumping, leaving Obama to explain my motives to the press.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 11:31 PM (dZQh7)

401 You don't need to pass it. You just need the headline that it passed the House.

Too bad no one on our teams thinks about media, PR, image etc.



You can still sell the same headline. You can say you offered tax cuts, and not 1 democrat voted for it.


You could up the ante. You could offer tax cuts under $500k instead of a million, or $250k. Would democrats shoot down both of those?


Why is this any more unsalable?


You didn't think the media were going to sell Plan B for you, did you? That they'd decide to play fair with it?


Really, 98% of all Americans? How are you exactly selling that as a compromise anyway? You gave up 2%? And the optics of 2% were gonna save you, but 20 defectors sinks you?????

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:31 PM (YUttk)

402 "And let's not pretend this was over principle, this was fear that some TruCon Teatard in a red district would say "my opponent supported tax increases" even though nothing could be further from the truth. Extending current tax rates to as many people as possible is not raising taxes."

Affirming the rates will rise is a tax increase.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 20, 2012 11:31 PM (3GtyG)

403 Cuz 2% is twice as big as the top 1% democrats will try to caricature you with?


Democrats are going to say you're holding tax cuts hostage to spare the top 1%, and you're going to deflect that criticism by holding taxes hostage to spare top 3% earners?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:33 PM (YUttk)

404 1. Who are you kidding? You think Dems didn't run that "Read my lips....NO...NEW...TAXES" clip?

99.8% no tax increases.

Only tax increases on those with $1 million in income.

You are making a distinction without a difference.

And, by taxing millionaires more, we would get to do two things:

1) Throw "millionaires" back into Dems face.

2) Show some of the middle and lower class that the GOP party isn't really the party of the rich and wealthy and connected. I know its not true, but a whole lot of voters do. And if you never act any differently than to seem to protect those fragile millionaires, then good luck changing perceptions.

If Romney had won and we held the Senate, then I would be fine on not raising millionaire taxes.

But we lost.

Again, if you think I am wrong, then I will simply back out of supporting the GOP and watch how you kick Obama's ass with your strategy.

Hint: I have seen people on these boards say how Romney's pro-entrepreneur arguments did not sway them. I think as a business owner, I may have thought those were great arguments and been wrong as most people just want a paycheck.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 11:36 PM (dZQh7)

405 How does this cockamamie 'pragmatic' plan actually end anywhere different because of 20 defectors? The number is more like 250k. No tax hikes under $250k.


It seems to me, I dunno, it almost seems like more about placing blame for the inevitable $250k 'sell-out' on those damn "true-cons", because if those true-cons hadn't screwed you, you would have gotten 98%. But since they were TOO GOOD for 98%(!!!) you had no choice but squish out and agree to $250k.


But you wouldn't have gotten 98%. That shit is make believe. It was $250k all along, either way. You guys are drinking political bullshit.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:36 PM (YUttk)

406 2) Show some of the middle and lower class that the GOP party isn't really the party of the rich and wealthy and connected.


But holding tax cuts hostage to people making over half a million dollars a year???

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:39 PM (YUttk)

407 "You could up the ante. You could offer tax cuts under $500k instead of a million, or $250k. Would democrats shoot down both of those? "

What are you smoking? That would have even less support in the House. I would be fine with it. I'm sort of LIB right now, mentally.

I know you have some rationale here...can you explain it more?

I thought we did millionaires because that was the Dem's rhetoric?

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 11:39 PM (dZQh7)

408 You really think you're going to thwart the media and become the party of the Everyman by throwing the top 2% under the bus but drawing the line with the top 5%?


Are you high right now?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:40 PM (YUttk)

409 "Are you high right now?"

Moderately.

Posted by: Jordan at December 20, 2012 11:41 PM (Hz1zc)

410 "But holding tax cuts hostage to people making over half a million dollars a year???"

Explain.

@405...that is interesting. But depressing.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 11:42 PM (dZQh7)

411 396 Please explain.

If handled correctly, the passage of Plan B would have forced the Ds to choose between rejecting the extension due to their love of class warfare or accepting a similar compromise so as to avoid alienating middle class voters.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 11:43 PM (YjDyJ)

412 I heard rumors the thread was still kicking. but I didn't believe it.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 20, 2012 11:46 PM (piMMO)

413 "You really think you're going to thwart the media and become the party of the Everyman by throwing the top 2% under the bus but drawing the line with the top 5%? "

paying 39.6% on incomes over a million a year is not throwing anyone under the bus.

I know about having to pay taxes. When you have really good years, its an excellent problem to have.

Much better than cutting salaries to stay afloat.

Maybe we had better study Obama a bit. He can be anti-military...but appear to be pro-military...just enough to win LIV.

That's why you pass the millionaire tax increase.

If you don't like to pander, well, I guess we can become the Libertarian Party part II.

The lesson from 2012, is you better have your LIV image ready.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 11:46 PM (dZQh7)

414 "If handled correctly, the passage of Plan B would have forced the Ds to choose between rejecting the extension due to their love of class warfare or accepting a similar compromise so as to avoid alienating middle class voters."

I agree with this.

Entropy appears to disagree and say Plan B was nothing.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 11:47 PM (dZQh7)

415 402 Affirming the rates will rise is a tax increase.

Allowing the tax cuts to expire is accepting an even bigger tax increase.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 20, 2012 11:48 PM (YjDyJ)

416 I thought we did millionaires because that was the Dem's rhetoric?


OMFG and you're cool with that? Democrats say the GOP are supporting evil rich capitalists so you're like, tax cuts for gajillionaires since they're your demo?


The whole point of this is suppose to be that the GOP demonstrates it doesn't want higher taxes on anyone, but it realizes it has to compromise, so it will accept some taxes but if the economy tanks it's the democrats fault. Right????


So give them whatever the fuck they want, reluctantly. Vote on no tax hikes, vote on none under 1 mil, none under 500k, none under 250k, none under 100k. All separate bills, identical except the cut off.


Whatever can pass passes, and that's all that can pass anyway, so go home.


If the no tax hikes passes on partisan lines but will go no where in the senate, maybe the 98% Plan B fails with 20 defectors, 500k Plan C fails with 40 defectors, you get to 200k Plan D are you picking up democrats yet? Something has to pass or nothing will pass and taxes hit everyone.


Let the senate pick it's choice, from whatever the house can pass, either on R party lines (ain't gonna pick that one anyway) or on squishy bipartisan lines (this might save some people tax hikes, but not 98%, maybe 30%).


If the democrats are unwilling to compromise at all because they secretly want to go over the cliff, the GOP should offer them no tax hikes over $100k to show it's not the party of the rich over the middle class. Not fucking $1 million dollars. 98% of Americans will not stop democrats from painting you as for the top 1%, because the top 3% isn't really much different anyway.


They say (in their attack ads!) Republicans won't cut taxes on the top 1%, so our brilliant pragmatic response is the top 2%?!? Cuz of the OPTICS of it?!????

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:52 PM (YUttk)

417 Oh right, and 20 GOP defectors ruins it totally.


Because when you DON'T want to take credit later for economy-destroying tax hikes, you totally want the bill to pass with your whole party in lock stop and the other guys voting no.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:55 PM (YUttk)

418 Iz all Kabooki.

At this point, Boehner couldn't whip votes to pass gas.

Going over the Fiscal Clusterfuck gives Obama MORE cards. The Army's gonna need Mitt's horsies.

Posted by: Rex the Wonder God at December 20, 2012 11:56 PM (21TJo)

419 @entropy - thanks for your explanation. I sort of like it.

Yes, optics are important. Unfortunately.

I also think there are many people who make 250k in some states who will not consider that to be "millionaire" status and would be on the GOP side for that cut-off being 500K plus.

What is really sad is in Cali, there are numerous public employees making above 250k.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 20, 2012 11:57 PM (dZQh7)

420 If handled correctly, the passage of Plan B would have forced the Ds to choose between rejecting the extension due to their love of class warfare or accepting a similar compromise so as to avoid alienating middle class voters.


Middle class voters who make $999,999.99 a year?


Those 'optics' were going to scare democrats into compromising or risk alienated Joe the Plumber and small business men???


Really?


How much do you people make?!???

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 11:58 PM (YUttk)

421 @entropy, this is why I think 1 million is fine...because that would not cause a huge recession. It affects a handful of people, who believe me, will find ways around it easily.

Oh, sure it will have some effect. But not as much as going over the fiscal cliff, tax wise.

Actually, I'm not really that opposed to the fiscal cliff except for the blame we will get.

Thanks again for your explanation, I was not really tracking you, and you are someone I pay attention to, policy wise.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 21, 2012 12:00 AM (dZQh7)

422 Ahhhh, I see! Even more clear now.

I agree that 1 million can be spun by the Dems, too. Oh, such a concession to hurt those guys. /sarc

Gotcha.

personally, I think they are stupid not to add in Hollywood taxes, trial lawyers taxes, gov't official taxes ala Instapundit, etc.

Nobody like millionaire lawyers and they are all Dems.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 21, 2012 12:03 AM (dZQh7)

423 A good thing about the vote fail:

It will give Boehner more credibility to say "the House won't pass that" on Obama's plans.

Maybe I have been looking at this wrongly.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 21, 2012 12:07 AM (dZQh7)

424 paying 39.6% on incomes over a million a year is not throwing anyone under the bus.


That's the point. It's hardly anyone under the bus at all. That's not a real compromise. That goes nowhere in the senate.

Seriously explain to me how, if the 20 republican defectors would have voted for it tonight, Plan B was going to pass the democrat Senate without getting 20 democrat votes in the house.



It's cuz Harry Reid is going to be scared to play class warfare with the top 2% of income earners, since that's twice as big as the 1% he's claiming now?

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 12:07 AM (YUttk)

425 Maybe Boehner should have held off on those committee re-assignments until he got the votes he needed. But he never was all that bright. Exhibit A: publicizing the biggest vote of your speakership before you know you've got the votes. Regardless of the merits of Plan B, Boehner is a failure, through and through.

Posted by: somebody else, not me at December 21, 2012 12:08 AM (nZvGM)

426 I think Boehner was supposed to pass it so the Dems could lower the cut-off, remove the phony spending cuts, pass it in the Senate and then turn around and say, see GOP, it's your bill, now you need to compromise, otherwise tax rates will go up for the middle class.

That would explain all the anger, threats pressure on a bill that didn't have a chance in hell of getting passed as is. Because let's face it, nobody actually believed the GOP had a chance of winning the PR war with the media just by passing a bill that wouldn't pass. No, I think there was more here than met the eye.


Posted by: jeannebodine at December 21, 2012 12:09 AM (x0dlI)

427 "Allowing the tax cuts to expire is accepting an even bigger tax increase."

The only plans that have passed the House, stopped all increases. The House has already voted to solve the problem with no increases. Thanks to this withdrawal, that remains completely true.

It's like entropy picks up on...you don't WANT to go forward saying "We already voted to cut everone's taxes."

I saw it back during the debt limit crisis...when the House VOTED to fund the government, and Reid said "DOA! DOA!"

That was the point to say "We already voted to totally solve the problem. We're going fishing."

But Boehner didn't. He had to meet secretly, come up with a total sellout, and then bully the House into backing it.

I think he wants to be Neville Chamberlain, waving the white paper that HE negotiated.

Yes. We want to be the party that shields millionaires. Class warfare weakens ALL private property rights.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 21, 2012 12:10 AM (3GtyG)

428 Well... the silver lining is that the 112th Congress will retire to the bowels of history, the most hated legislative body in our history. Let's hope all parties return from the holidays with a spirit of pragmatism and cooperation. Out with the 112th. In with lucky 113!

Posted by: Jordan at December 21, 2012 12:13 AM (Hz1zc)

429 405 How does this cockamamie 'pragmatic' plan actually end anywhere different because of 20 defectors?

The Rs were beginning to control the narrative regarding ownership of the tax increase. Further, consider that a united front would have strengthened Boehner's hand going forward. Instead, we now have a weakened Speaker who lost some of his leverage, which increases the likelihood of an even worse deal being reached.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 21, 2012 12:18 AM (YjDyJ)

430 personally, I think they are stupid not to add in Hollywood taxes, trial lawyers taxes, gov't official taxes ala Instapundit, etc.

Nobody like millionaire lawyers and they are all Dems.



I agree but I don't think the Grover Norquist types are on board with tax warfare.


And I would have voted for Plan B too. It's a great deal (you weren't going to get it anyway).


But this nonsense about 20 GOP defectors having any impact on anything is way overblown. They defected on a purely symbolic vote of political posturing, and apparently a baby-splitting one at that. There's not enough difference between 98% and 100% to be worth losing defectors when you don't pick a single democrat with silly posturing.


If you want to just posture, posture right, posture with 100% and go home. Don't insist on a 2% compromise because no one who's angered by 100% will be happy with 98%. It gains nothing. It totally fake compromise anyway.


If you're serious about mitigating damage, the real number will be more like $250k because you need some democrats. If they won't take $250k it's the stupidest thing ever to hit them with $1M when they won't spare $250k. Hit them with $250k.


Maybe they will take that. Maybe it can pass if enough on both sides will go squishy. Might be the best deal. But somehow will have to explain to me why 20 GOP defectors voting nay on plan B has any effect whatsoever with this, when such a thing will probably have 115 defectors and rely on dems.


And since we're trying to avoid blame for this later... isn't that obvious? Why in gods name we would even try without dem cooperation? You don't even want republicans staying lockstep as you go lower. You want a party line vote on No Tax Hikes At All. Then, the more you compromise, the more defectors you get. That's how you get the 'optics' of not being responsible for it later - by dragging dems in, you know, not by being whole responsible.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 12:19 AM (YUttk)

431 "Nobody like millionaire lawyers and they are all Dems."

Mitt Romney? Sorry, my friend, but I believe both parties nominated millionaire Harvard lawyers this cycle.

Posted by: Jordan at December 21, 2012 12:20 AM (Hz1zc)

432 Affirming the rates will rise is a tax increase.


Posted by: Chris Balsz

No it's not.
This vote did not "raise" anyone's taxes, in two weeks EVERYONE gets a tax increase, Plan B spared 99.8% of those taxpayers.

You'll have to explain to me how voting on the same side of people like Nancy Pelosi and EVERYONE getting a huge tax increase was the more conservative option.

Look, I'd love to go back to Reagan's tax rates, but I'm not some moron that thinks anything less than that is a tax increase.

Posted by: Jeepers at December 21, 2012 12:20 AM (XDRsa)

433 That's right, I completely forgot that the House had already voted to keep the existing tax rates for all incomes. And that passed so this makes even less sense. I assume that legislation is still operational?

Posted by: jeannebodine at December 21, 2012 12:20 AM (x0dlI)

434 427 But Boehner didn't. He had to meet secretly, come up with a total sellout, and then bully the House into backing it.

Plan B is not the deal he was negotiating with the WH.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 21, 2012 12:21 AM (YjDyJ)

435 Like I said, I almost wonder if this isn't a send-up now to blame the "true-cons" for the $250k squish-out, because they'll say otherwise we could have had $1M.


We were never going to get Plan B with $1M. We're literally now holding tax cuts hostage demanding they also apply to the top 3%. Those are Plan B optics.


And we're pissed because why, it would have worked too, if not for Justin Amash and the Dread Pirate Luap Nor who will no doubt haunt us even from his grave. Harry Reid was quaking in his boots till the true-cons defeated the bill the democrats dare not vote against.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 12:23 AM (YUttk)

436 That's right, I completely forgot that the House had already voted to keep the existing tax rates for all incomes. And that passed so this makes even less sense. I assume that legislation is still operational?


There's no reason they cannot do it again right now, for, you know, um... optics?


Oh right. That's why I suspect they're entirely lying to us.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 12:26 AM (YUttk)

437 The Rs were beginning to control the narrative regarding ownership of the tax increase.


The R's are promoting the exact same narrative the D's are promoting.


The only disparity between R rhetoric and D rhetoric is 1%.


How the hell would we tell even if we were winning?

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 12:29 AM (YUttk)

438 Literally people.


The D's are now saying "We want to avoid tax hikes for the middle class but the Republicans won't do it unless we include the top 1%, so we can't agree to it".


The R's are now currently saying "We want to avoid tax hikes for the middle class but we won't do it unless we include the top 3%, and the democrats won't agree to it."


And the R's are the party ostensibly pissed about budget deficits. The dems are like "everything's cool!". So this 3% narrative is going to make people understand it's really the democrats who want to jack up taxes on the middle class?

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 12:33 AM (YUttk)

439 But if we adopted a 0% narrative, why, then, we've already lost in 2014.


Damn Justin Amash! Damn him.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 12:34 AM (YUttk)

440 And for the record, yes, half the conservatives jumped off board the dreamy impossible 'no taxes on the top 3%' narrative because it wasn't 0% enough for them.


Way way way too good to ever fucking happen was not good enough.


But really, who cares anymore? Isn't it clear by now it's FUBAR? Who can even keep track of which ridiculous kool-aid lie we're suppose to believe this week?

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 12:37 AM (YUttk)

441 This thread describes perfectly why the Republicans continue to be Charlie Brown trying to kick a football that the Democrat Lucy keeps pulling away at the last minute.

And then, again judging from this thread, Charlie Brown gets mad at Pig Pen instead of Lucy.

Republicans argue political tactics. Democrats plot political strategy. That's why they keep winning.


Posted by: filbert at December 21, 2012 12:47 AM (NaNKB)

442 437 The R's are promoting the exact same narrative the D's are promoting.

False. The pro-Plan B members who spoke on the floor made a point of stating that they would vote aye in order to limit damage to the taxpayer, not because they felt allowing the top rate to increase is good policy.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 21, 2012 12:49 AM (YjDyJ)

443 Also, after tonight, any member who claims/continues to claim that they are afraid of Boehner is a liar.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 21, 2012 12:53 AM (YjDyJ)

444 People, this is Tom McClintock speaking. TOM MCCLINTOCK. Anybody going to question his conservative bona fides?

Well yes, apparently so. #334 is doing so already.

Posted by: Jeff B. at December 20, 2012 09:37 PM (/COnL)


THIS.

McClintock's bona fides are SOLID. Far more solid then most of the "all or nothing" Reps. who scuttled this deal.

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 21, 2012 12:56 AM (sZTYJ)

445 False. The pro-Plan B members who spoke on the floor made a point of stating that they would vote aye in order to limit damage to the taxpayer, not because they felt allowing the top rate to increase is good policy.


What exactly do you think the democrats are attacking you with?

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 12:57 AM (YUttk)

446 "No it's not.
This vote did not "raise" anyone's taxes, in two weeks EVERYONE gets a tax increase, Plan B spared 99.8% of those taxpayers."

Yes, it was.
The House was asked to declare the law to be, a higher rate than present, for upper-level incomes. That is a tax increase by this House.
The House has previously voted to maintain present rates for everyone. That is a tax cut maintained by the House.
If the Senate refuses to enact ANY change in the law, and the present rates expire, that is action by the SENATE, to raise taxes.

"You'll have to explain to me how voting on the same side of people like Nancy Pelosi and EVERYONE getting a huge tax increase was the more conservative option."

Who ever said that?
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say, "Voting to maintain all rates doesn't count as a law, because the Senate will not pass it; but, voting to raise some rates and maintain others DOES count as a law, despite that the Senate will not pass it."

"Look, I'd love to go back to Reagan's tax rates, but I'm not some moron that thinks anything less than that is a tax increase."

Nor am I. They passed a tax cut across the board. Disavowing that, and agreeing to change the law - and specifying the rates --and specifying new, higher rates, THAT is the tax increase.

"That's right, I completely forgot that the House had already voted to keep the existing tax rates for all incomes. And that passed so this makes even less sense. I assume that legislation is still operational?"

Since the Senate hasn't voted on it, it's free to vote on it. And the fact that you were allowed to forget that--even encouraged to forget that - boils my blood.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 21, 2012 01:02 AM (3GtyG)

447 "McClintock's bona fides are SOLID. Far more solid then most of the "all or nothing" Reps. who scuttled this deal."

Not anymore.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 21, 2012 01:03 AM (3GtyG)

448 McClintock's bona fides are SOLID. Far more solid then most of the "all or nothing" Reps. who scuttled this deal.


FFS. How could they have possibly scuttled anything?


Do you people work for Boehners office or something?


Or is it more about the blankey? Just blaim truecons?


Or are you really just swallowing this whole, right now? Harry Reid was quakin', oh shit, the republicans passed a bill with no tax hikes on 98%. No way he can block that in the senate. No way he can play class warfare and blame us for going over the cliff because we held out for 2%.


Are you a democrat operative?


How can we actually be this daft?


You seriously expect me to believe that demanding no tax hikes on anyone at all is an unreasonable extreme electoral loser, but no tax hikes for 98% was such a showstopper we can force it through a dem senate?


Really? Really? 2%?


And you're calling them all or nothing. You realize a 98% hold out is straight over the fucking cliff, don't you? You think Harry Reid is really on board with 98%? Or you just opportunistically club the true-cons cuz you have an opportunity?


Someone please make this insanity make sense.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 01:04 AM (YUttk)

449 445 What exactly do you think the democrats are attacking you with?

How about we stop pretending that the Ds will magically agree to extend all the tax cuts just because we wish it to be so?

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 21, 2012 01:06 AM (YjDyJ)

450 "Voting to maintain all rates doesn't count as a law, because the Senate will not pass it; but, voting to raise some rates and maintain others DOES count as a law, despite that the Senate will not pass it."


The hell they can't!


That's the whole game. What I don't get is why, for the love of god, why?

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 01:07 AM (YUttk)

451 How about we stop pretending that the Ds will magically agree to extend all the tax cuts just because we wish it to be so?


Exactly.


Let's also stop pretending that the D's will magically agree to extend 98% of all the tax cuts just because we with it to be so?

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 01:08 AM (YUttk)

452 Wish. Should be wish.


80sbabie, you seem to be telling me that Justin Amash's "100% tax cuts" is not realistic, but John Boehner's "98% tax cuts" was totally totally gonna pass Harry Reid's senate.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 01:10 AM (YUttk)

453 "No it's not.
This vote did not "raise" anyone's taxes, in two weeks EVERYONE gets a tax increase, Plan B spared 99.8% of those taxpayers."

Yes, it was.
The House was asked to declare the law to be, a higher rate than present, for upper-level incomes. That is a tax increase by this House.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 21, 2012 01:02 AM (3GtyG)


They did not declare the tax rate to be higher on Jan. 1st, then it would have already been.

Since nothing was going to get passed by the Senate or through Obama, this vote was a strategic and symbolic vote.

It was not a tax hike. It would not raise ANY rates that were not already set in the books.

Withdrawing attempts to introduce new & lower rates than were on the books was a wise decision, and would have be a powerful weapon against Obama and the Dems.

IT WAS NOT A TAX HIKE. Keeping the same rates as were on the books is not a tax increase. What this idiotic intrangedence has done is f**k over the vast majority of the Middle Class who will now be ready to jump in the Obama camp because he allegedly promised them to raise the RICH PEOPLE's taxes and not THEIRS like the GOP wanted!

Principles that lead to those principles being destroyed are not principles worth a s**t.

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 21, 2012 01:15 AM (sZTYJ)

454 Entropy

We are wasting our time arguing with these people, when we should be selling them insurance.

"Your premiums are due to rise $50/month. However if you buy an additional $50,000 in coverage for $40 more per month, THERE IS NO INCREASE IN PREMIUMS!!"

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 21, 2012 01:16 AM (3GtyG)

455 451 Let's also stop pretending that the D's will magically agree to extend 98% of all the tax cuts just because we with it to be so?

First of all, I never made that claim. Second, I have yet to hear a solid case as to why allowing all the tax cuts to expire is a conservative idea.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 21, 2012 01:18 AM (YjDyJ)

456 First of all, I never made that claim.


Plan B is 98% of all of the tax cuts.


John Boehner said so.


You told me you thought Plan B would have a very good chance of moving the Senate if only it could have passed the House with 0 dem votes.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 01:20 AM (YUttk)

457 a solid case as to why allowing all the tax cuts to expire is a conservative idea.


Perhaps, because making everyone put skin in the game instead of being free riders will make them more responsible with their government finances?


Or because we have no choice and the democrats want to?


How you can play both sides is amazing. You pull the 'tax cuts aren't conservative' line on me for being willing to go lower than 98%, but call Amash impossible for wanting 2% more.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 01:23 AM (YUttk)

458 "Since nothing was going to get passed by the Senate or through Obama, this vote was a strategic and symbolic vote."

"What this idiotic intrangedence has done is f**k over the vast majority of the Middle Class who will now be ready to jump in the Obama camp because he allegedly promised them to raise the RICH PEOPLE's taxes and not THEIRS like the GOP wanted!"

I repeat. You can't have it both ways.
If the Senate was going to kill it anyway, then isn't foolish intrangisence to be able to say "The House voted for lower rates. The Senate killed it."

By rejecting Plan B, that is the truth. You can't win by telling the public you voted up their tax cut?

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 21, 2012 01:24 AM (3GtyG)

459 Republicans are bickering over a symbolic 2% difference on a bill that will never become law, but which we are afraid to introduce with passage.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 01:24 AM (YUttk)

460 And don't really even pretend to expect any democrat to vote for.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 01:25 AM (YUttk)

461 452 80sbabie, you seem to be telling me that Justin Amash's "100% tax cuts" is not realistic, but John Boehner's "98% tax cuts" was totally totally gonna pass Harry Reid's senate.

98% is too high a number but it is more realistic than 100%. I hate that but it is what it is.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 21, 2012 01:27 AM (YjDyJ)

462 "What this idiotic intrangedence has done is f**k over the vast majority of the Middle Class who will now be ready to jump in the Obama camp because he allegedly promised them to raise the RICH PEOPLE's taxes and not THEIRS like the GOP wanted!"


I'm fucking amazed you people think top 3-5% income earners are middle class.


For optical purposes, no less.


No wonder why the democrats get away with it.


I kinda sorta think it's maybe .... eh...

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 01:27 AM (YUttk)

463 98% is too high a number but it is more realistic than 100%. I hate that but it is what it is.


You hate what? That's delusional. A realistic number is 60%. Maybe - it's up to the dems.


That's like saying $5,382,288.00 is ridiculously too much to pay for a vacuum cleaner, but $5,382,150.00 is more realistic than $5,382,288.00.

Posted by: entropy at December 21, 2012 01:30 AM (YUttk)

464 457 How you can play both sides is amazing. You pull the 'tax cuts aren't conservative' line on me for being willing to go lower than 98%, but call Amash impossible for wanting 2% more.

What I am saying is that you cannot simultaneously make the case that allowing all the tax cuts to expire is conservative yet allowing the tax cuts to expire for 2% is liberal. As for ideal scenarios regarding individual rates, I would prefer the adoption of a true flat rate but that is unfortunately not going to happen anytime soon.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 21, 2012 01:45 AM (YjDyJ)

465 I hate the fact that we will not get all of the tax cuts extended.

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 21, 2012 01:48 AM (YjDyJ)

466 "Inside the Meltdown"- http://bit.ly/ULCjXL

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 21, 2012 02:00 AM (YjDyJ)

467 "I heard rumors the thread was still kicking. but I didn't believe it."
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 20, 2012 11:46 PM (piMMO)

It's like those old, pre-electronic days, when you shut of the car and it keeps turning over in fits and starts.

Posted by: K-Bob at December 21, 2012 02:08 AM (VizQx)






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