"I Live With A Son Who Is Mentally Ill. I Love My Son. But He Terrifies Me "

This is a chilling story of a mother desperate to prevent her son from becoming a danger to others.

Here's an excerpt but really, just read the whole thing.

A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

...

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am Jason Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

...

When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”

I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population. (http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/09/05/us-number-mentally-ill-prisons-quadrupled)

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail, and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011 (http://www.npr.org/2011/09/04/140167676/nations-jails-struggle-with-mentally-ill-prisoners)

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”

I used to do some work for a state corrections officer union and heard countless stories about how most of their work and most of their problems involves mentally ill inmates. Despite the prevalence of mentally ill inmates, these guys aren't really trained to deal with mental patients and a prison isn't designed either physically or through its daily routine to deal treat the severely mentally ill.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about people who had a tough childhood are addicts or people who are just overwhelmed by life. I'm talking about people like Jared Lochner who are simply wired wrong.

These aren't people who just snap. There's usually a long trail of behavioral problems, psych evaluations and other signs. Parents, teachers, neighbors know who they are. They take step to protect their own children from them as best they can. It's not a mystery who these kids are.

There's no therapy, no drug, no suck it up treatment. These are people who are simply living in their own world. We need to find a humane way to remove these people from society for our own good and theirs as well. Until we figure that out, guns is simply a sideshow.

Added thought: "Mentally ill" is a very broad term. We need to be clear that not every person with a mental illness is a potential threat. But we can focus on the extremely troubled people. There's no magic answer to this and there's always going to be evil acts in the world but if we start with the big, obvious systemic problems (de-institutionalization) we'd be a lot further along the right path.

Posted by: DrewM. at 10:31 AM



Comments

1 What I don't like are people pointing to Asperger's. I'm not a Sperg, but we need to be rally careful when we talk about mental disorders.

Posted by: Zakn at December 16, 2012 10:35 AM (zyaZ1)

2 Unfortunately, we "deinstitutionalized" all the mentally ill back in the 70s or so. We used to have facilities, but "having them in society" became the greatest good. Heaven forbid we treat anyone differently.

Posted by: RightWingProf at December 16, 2012 10:36 AM (E/o+q)

3 Let's end the Drug War and use those resources to identify and treat/isolate the mentally ill.

Posted by: Jose/ningrim at December 16, 2012 10:38 AM (srIqv)

4 Kind of ironic the mother quotes Human Rights Watch, when it is leftist groups such as it (the ACLU) which keep nuts out of hospitals.

Posted by: Baldy at December 16, 2012 10:38 AM (opS9C)

5 Goddamn spelling really*

Posted by: Zakn at December 16, 2012 10:41 AM (zyaZ1)

6 I see lefties blaming Reagan. It's just disgusting.

Posted by: Choom based realist at December 16, 2012 10:41 AM (BHM5V)

7 Let's not forget where the blame for this lies.

Liberals.

They felt that locking up nuts violated their rights. They closed the mental hospitals. They encouraged drug therapy while letting the nuts wander the streets.

Anyone remember the crazy Black guy that use to roam the upper East side until he killed someone, the city would do nothing about him.

Another "do gooder" disaster.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at December 16, 2012 10:42 AM (wR+pz)

8 Asperger's syndrome can just exacerbates the underlying pathology.

Mt nephew (a grown man now) suffers modestly from this. He is one of the most gentle and kind people that I know. He is shy, but is growing out of this. He is tall and quite a strong young man, but would never hurt anyone except in self defense. He's always been big for his age, but only got into trouble in school standing up to someone who was bullying his little sister.

Asperger's doesn't make people crazy or sociopaths. It is not a behavioral problem per se. But mistreatment or mal-treatment can create a whole sociopathic problem and psychosis that only builds on this underlying problem.

Yes, the problem is not instrumentality, such as "guns". The conversation we should be having "as a nation" is now to identify such psychotic misfits and isolate them and try to help them, before they run amuck, without trampling on their civil rights or making them criminals before they commit a crime.

Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch is Eddie Willers at December 16, 2012 10:44 AM (Md8Uo)

9 The problem is convincing groups like the ACLU that yes, there are folks who need to be isolated from the rest of us for our safety. Not going to happen.

Posted by: NR Pax at December 16, 2012 10:45 AM (0SevM)

10 Well....... The liberals meant well. It is all about intentions, the results don't matter.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at December 16, 2012 10:45 AM (jucos)

11 I remember one particular lib asshole who got into it with me over Ronald Reagan. She claimed he was cruel because he shut down California's mental hospitals when he was governor, and they were forced out into the streets.

When I pointed out that it was an ACLU lawsuit at the 9th Circus that claimed the mentally ill were being held against their will in contravention of their Constitutional rights, which the court upheld, that led to the shuttering of these institutions, she shut her cake hole.

Hell, I'd rather the libs be locked up and take my chances with the other mentally ill on the streets. (semi-sarcastic, considering Friday's tragedy)

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 16, 2012 10:46 AM (XkWWK)

12 >There's no therapy, no drug, no suck it up treatment. These are people
who are simply living in their own world. We need to find a humane way
to remove these people from society for our own good and theirs as well.<

Really?

Yes let people with emotional disabilities and personality disorders who represent a threat to other people continue to be coddled. Just like Adam Lanza.

The problem is not the options. It's people.

Please don't patronize me. More compassion, outpatient treatment by unqualified parents, the avoidance of appropriate labeling and therefore treatment is the topic of discussion. But for now these people need to be off the street. Period.

Mrs. Lanza avoided the labeling and appropriate treatment for her evil, murdering son by navigating the system. She was also very well-heeled, ironically enough to buy weapons that run in total close to $2k. She had options. She chose not to take them, purposely. All to avoid calling her son what he was. Now 26 people, mostly innocent children paid with their lives.

Flash back to some of the other murderers you mention. There were warning signs and more avoidance by family members.

This is not a "send them to prison or their are no other options" scenario, That's sophistry of the 10th degree. By the way- what does one do with the criminally insane or those who have a very high potential to join that group?

Posted by: marcus at December 16, 2012 10:46 AM (Sosux)

13 Another "do gooder" disaster.
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at December 16, 2012 10:42 AM (wR+pz)



This.

But, to go a bit further, when it comes to psychopathy, which (last I read) is still incurable, I have only two words. Old Yeller. The story featured in this post illustrates the problem. That is a burden that should not be born.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 16, 2012 10:46 AM (jfeoD)

14 Liberals support mental health treatment and study. Republicans refund it

Posted by: palooka at December 16, 2012 10:47 AM (XStfj)

15 Yes, the wonderful ACLU, fighting for the "rights" of the mentally ill, de-intitutionalized many people that frankly could not cope with life.

Hence, all the crazy street people, and the casual crimes they commit becaue they frankly don't know any better.

Fuck those guys and the horse they rode in on.

Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch is Eddie Willers at December 16, 2012 10:47 AM (Md8Uo)

16 I think crazy people should be locked up. Your milder whack jobs should be heavily medicated.

Posted by: Jones in CO at December 16, 2012 10:49 AM (8sCoq)

17
eh, Obamacare will take care of this, it is the perfect health care legislation I am told.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 16, 2012 10:50 AM (n/ubI)

18 14 Liberals support mental health treatment and study. Republicans refund it

Liberals shuttered all the asylums that were equipped to deal with maniacs.

And we spend more on mental health now than we did then.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 10:51 AM (uhAkr)

19 What burns me up is the trope, "As long as Mr or Ms X stay on their meds they are no danger. So we are releasing them to live their own life."

Of course what is left unsaid, we assume they will be dutiful and take their meds. But often not they do not. And we got another crazy killing machine.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 16, 2012 10:51 AM (hWrM7)

20 @12

All that is true. Put yourself in her shoes. How are you going to get him committed? Where? She was doing what she thought was best.


She clearly had no idea he would go off and kill her, or she would have done things differently.


Tough to second guess a parent.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at December 16, 2012 10:51 AM (wR+pz)

21 >Well....... The liberals meant well. It is all about intentions, the results don't matter.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at December 16, 2012 10:45 AM (jucos)

Good Lord man, you just described the entire progressive movement in 2 sentences.

Posted by: Jones in CO at December 16, 2012 10:51 AM (8sCoq)

22 "I see lefties blaming Reagan. It's just disgusting."

They do seem to blame Republicans for all THEIR failed policies. Same with the housing crisis.

Posted by: sydney jane at December 16, 2012 10:53 AM (3a4vw)

23 Oh, jail is not so bad. In LA, when some one is arrested and people think they are a psych case, a psychologist will come evaluate them. They usually can talk them into voluntarily committing themselves. There are also psych jail wards. Yes, it's a revolving door in that often once they are released, they fall off the wagon, but still it is a solution. You have to remember they come in bouncing off the walls and crazy as loons. After a few weeks of treatment they are often the nicest and most insightful people you have met.

But seriously picking them up on criminal offenses is the best way of getting them into treatment either voluntarily or involuntarily.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 16, 2012 10:54 AM (jWwDJ)

24 Down the street from where I am sitting, classmate of my brother shot his dad who was trying to get him to take his meds a few years back. The elderly dad took care of the son. If the psychos can get forcibly treated, and the evil can get put away, the streets would look lot different.

Posted by: Baldy at December 16, 2012 10:54 AM (opS9C)

25 They run the liberal media.

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 16, 2012 10:54 AM (AWmfW)

26 Not to sound cold about the person who wrote the piece, but if the kid was under 18, she shouldn't need the government's permission to have the child institutionalized. If the child was threatening her and the other kids with a knife, he broke the law, and she could have had the police charge him and take him to get help.

IMHO, most of these parents don't want to have their children hospitalized because of the stigma that they think will be attached to the parents, not the child.

Posted by: MrCaniac at December 16, 2012 10:54 AM (Zd/NW)

27

Good piece. Thanks Drew.

People linked and discussed this from the gateway pundit, yesterday, but it's worth linking again, as it directly relates.

http://tinyurl.com/c3v7jfc


There is much more that can be said. Hoft simply got the conversation started.

Posted by: beach at December 16, 2012 10:54 AM (LpQbZ)

28 Marcus @ 12

Yes, that is unfortunately very likely close to the truth.

The truly psycotic should be locked up
1) to protect society from them
2) to try and treat them

(1) is the priority. (2) may not be possible.

Instead, we, as a society, are more interested in protecting people's "rights", than putting the crazy label on them. So these people walk the streets, like a time bomb ready to blow.

Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch is Eddie Willers at December 16, 2012 10:54 AM (Md8Uo)

29 >They do seem to blame Republicans for all THEIR failed policies. Same with the housing crisis.


Posted by: sydney jane at December 16, 2012 10:53 AM (3a4vw)

One gets the impression that the republicans are responsible for everything bad from 1492 to present

Posted by: Jones in CO at December 16, 2012 10:55 AM (8sCoq)

30 Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 16, 2012 10:51 AM (hWrM7)

Exactly.

Normal, sane people rarely take their medications dutifully. And sometimes they get really sick, and occasionally die because of it. Imagine adding a significant threat to others on top of those risks.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 16, 2012 10:55 AM (GsoHv)

31 I blame Geraldo Rivera for all of this!

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 16, 2012 10:55 AM (0fxcV)

32 So depressing....but when you read about how lax CT's laws are you'll be even more upset.

Posted by: lamaestra at December 16, 2012 10:56 AM (aukFg)

33 http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/

Posted by: lamaestra at December 16, 2012 10:56 AM (aukFg)

34 >Asperger's syndrome can just exacerbates the underlying pathology.
<

Oh and this^ x100.

The irresponsible media is now creating a stigma around these disorders which have zero to do with this murderer. All the good work people are doing to help the many kids with these disorders is being flushed down the toilet.

This kids mother did all she could to keep this piece of trash from being called what he was and being labeled, appropriately with emotional and possibly personality disorders.

There were plenty of signs this murderer was well beyond autism or high-functioning Aspergers. The quote from his neighbor was telling. He said " I wish I could say I was surprised, but I am not. May he rot in hell".

That's not a sign of someone with these disabilities. It's a sign of a sociopath with emotional issues.

Posted by: marcus at December 16, 2012 10:57 AM (Sosux)

35
Good Lord man, you just described the entire progressive movement in 2 sentences.

Posted by: Jones in CO at December 16, 2012 10:51 AM (8sCoq

--------------------
The only thing I omitted was their proclivity to want TOTAL control.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at December 16, 2012 10:57 AM (jucos)

36 I'm a mild aspy.

I understand what it is and how it works. Its been a huge asset when directed at hard technical problems. It allows me to do harder things faster than others ever could.

Downside - I have to consciously wrestle with it occasionally in social settings and just force my way through situations I'd rather run away from.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 16, 2012 10:57 AM (G0eua)

37 Added thought: "Mentally ill" is a very broad term.

Yeah, which is why i'm not real comfortable with so many using mental illness to deflect the gun grabbers in the wake of the CT murders. No doubt the kid was mentally ill, but if we keep using it to defend the 2nd amd it won't be long before liberals push the idea that simply wanting to own a gun is an mental illness, media jumps on it, mindless gun grabbers will follow and there you go, owning a gun is now recognized as an official mental illness.

Posted by: booger at December 16, 2012 10:59 AM (HI6wa)

38 Cho was the same way -- he had been received into a facility and diagnosed as dangerous but nothing could be done until he committed a crime, and by then it was too late.

Posted by: joncelli at December 16, 2012 11:00 AM (CWlPF)

39 Yes, deinstitutionalization was the very first Libertarian cause celebre. The big daddy of that movement, Thomas Szasz, died this year. In retrospect, it looks like the state authorities spent a whole generation setting this one up, and leapt at the opportunity to get out from under their traditional government role. They turned them out onto the streets virtually overnight. To teach you a lesson.

For those who do not remember the old system, there were issues. State institutions were often used as a sort of welfare, a place to dump the old and inconvenient to avoid the cost and embarrassment of having an obviously unbalanced (often, in the old times, syphilitic) relative damaging the family reputation. And problem teenagers were sometimes signed away for life. There was a political component as well. A lot of us here would be in there.

None of us are proud of the nanny-culture net of professionally concerned social workers and para-psychology types who have, in just one long generation, gained so much unopposable influence over people's lives. When you call for the state to get involved, you are opening the door to a world of trouble, and giving it power that will certainly be abused, not eventually, but right from the start.

Just like with gun control, there are social strategists sitting back waiting for you to jerk your knee. I urge those looking for answers to think long and hard (not hard for us: we're morons) about alternatives to increased government authority in this area, and to consider all the complications that will arise. You won't get "middle ground" from government agencies. We know that. Those who are first in line offering to help are your lifelong enemies, and they don't come cheap.

Yes, this is a mockable position. But you will regret any increase in governmental authority that is made in haste. The old days were terrible.

Posted by: comatus at December 16, 2012 11:00 AM (qaVK+)

40 "I have to consciously wrestle with it occasionally in social settings and just force my way through situations I'd rather run away from."

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 16, 2012 10:57 AM (G0eua)

That sounds suspiciously like most people. It certainly applies to some situations in my life.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 16, 2012 11:00 AM (GsoHv)

41 Ever notice that these mass murderers tend to be young males?

Perhaps the root cause of these problems aren't guns, but that they are living in a society where being male-ness is considered a pathological illness.

The "gender neutral" advocates are trying to push that gender is only a "social construct" and that boys are just girls with dangly bits.

With girls being considered the norm, any deviation from that is considered a problem. The fact that rough-housing is now considered practically a violent crime, or the fact that boys are increasingly left behind in schools more geared towards girls than boys, might mean that we as a modern society are failing boys and young men.

Modern leftists have largely succeeded in destroying a man's place in society. The roles of the sexes, while maybe not optimal or even great, have evolved over millennia and have set boundaries that help keep boys and young men on the straight and narrow.

Nowadays, men are no longer an integral part of a family and single motherhood stands triumphant. Without fathers, boys have no way of understanding themselves as men, particularly since the message they get society is anything but that. We now have a society of grown children who are listless and have no real place to be in society that is in any way positive. There is neither responsibility nor expectation to mould or temper them into proper and respectable gentlemen.

This will not end well. This HAS NOT ended well.

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 16, 2012 11:00 AM (sZTYJ)

42 >>>>I am Jared Loughner’s mother.

Loughner was an untreated schizophrenic. I believe too often parents protect their kids which ultimately hurts them. They should have forced him into treatment through the criminal justices system.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 16, 2012 11:00 AM (jWwDJ)

43 Just wait until they classify toddlers temper tantrums as mental illness and need treatment. That will make the system to get mental health so much faster for those that really need it or something.

Posted by: Trevor (@tjexcite) at December 16, 2012 11:00 AM (Ea64Y)

44 Of course what is left unsaid, we assume they will be dutiful and take their meds. But often not they do not. And we got another crazy killing machine.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 16, 2012 10:51 AM (hWrM7)



exactly

I know a bi-polar who, after taking her meds, thinks she's okay. She stops, she has extreme episodes. She has to be physically moved to a mental hospital where they can monitor her and get her dosage back up to normal levels. Then, she is allowed out.

She is not dangerous, per se (who knows; only from what I observe), but with other more extreme cases of mental disorders, it is one dark mystery of what people are capable of.

Posted by: beach at December 16, 2012 11:00 AM (LpQbZ)

45
Liberals are responsible for this problem, as pointed out above.

Remember the phrase "care in the community?" It was a liberalinitiative that led initially to legislation andeventually to a 1975 Supreme Court decision (O'Connor v. Donaldson) that held it "unconstitutional to commit for treatment a person who is not imminently a danger to himself or others and is capable to a minimal degree of surviving on his own." (Wikipedia, "Involuntary Commitment.")

Liberals love to smear Reagan for turning the nuts loose, but Reagan had zero choice in the matter; liberalism had struck again.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:01 AM (4u2LN)

46 (2010) ACLU brags about releasing nuts, starting in 1972 (Willowbrook, which Geraldo "Jerry Rivers" Rivera documented) : http://tinyurl.com/bn82k3x

Posted by: Baldy at December 16, 2012 11:01 AM (opS9C)

47 Posted by: MrCaniac at December 16, 2012 10:54 AM (Zd/NW)


This.

I don't give a shit if she thinks her boy is gifted. I care he drew a knife on his goddamn mother and is apparently totally quackers.

I don't want that psychopath near my kids.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 11:03 AM (uhAkr)

48 I'm reading these comments andhave a suggestion. Let's just line everybody in the country in a straight line . If you are crazier than the person in front of you, move up. Now, where do we draw the line? Three standard deviations from the mean? That would be roughtly 2% of the population. Two standard deviations from the mean? That would be roughly 5% of the population. I know, everybody crazier than me. That would be roughly 25% of the population. Let's just lock them up. Seriously???

It is every bit as naive thinking that we can "lock up the crazy people" and make the world safe as it is to think we can make it safe by getting rid of guns.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at December 16, 2012 11:03 AM (1OZSU)

49 Loughner was an untreated schizophrenic. I believe too often parents protect their kids which ultimately hurts them.


I was talking to my husband about this.

Parents see the good in their children. Some parents are in denial. Some parents can't let go. Heart strings.

The phrase the parent knows what's good for their child, or the parent knows their child better than you can be misleading. It can be true, but it can be misleading as well.

Posted by: beach at December 16, 2012 11:03 AM (LpQbZ)

50 >Instead, we, as a society, are more interested in protecting people's "rights", than putting the crazy label on them.<

And you are correct again.

Reflexively detractor go after "gun rights" because that appeals emotionally to people. They use it as a diabolical conversation changer to detract from the real issues.

Until folks figure our we have a mental health/people issue, not a gun issue this will continue to happen.

People who are intent on mass murder will find and have found other ways to kill.

By the way: imagine one armed person in that school. This ends very differently.

Posted by: marcus at December 16, 2012 11:03 AM (Sosux)

51
Posted by: The Political Hat at December 16, 2012 11:00 AM (sZTYJ)

I agree with your sentiments, but I don't thinkthey're really relevant to mass murderers. People don't become schizophrenic or otherwise seriously psychotic because liberals have undermined the male role in society, and the seriously psychotic are those responsible for mass murders.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:04 AM (4u2LN)

52 Put yourself in her shoes. How are you going to get him committed? Where? She was doing what she thought was best.
She clearly had no idea he would go off and kill her, or she would have done things differently.
Tough to second guess a parent.


I can't tell if you're serious, but I'll assume you are. There is a reason the criminal justice system doesn't rely on a Mom's assessment of her kid when determining guilt and sentencing a criminal. The society at large has too big a stake to leave it to the parents. The same should apply to the mentally ill. It used to, and we used to live in a society without homeless beggars on every urban street corner. Then, ironically, the party of the collective decided that the rights of the most dysfunctional individuals should trump the greater good. I don't understand their thinking, if there is any, other than that they all saw "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" and decided they liked the moral frisson it gave them to oppose common sense.

Posted by: pep at December 16, 2012 11:04 AM (6TB1Z)

53 I think the aftermath of this shooting is going to do a great disservice to our understanding and treatment of the mentally ill -- just the opposite of what people are claiming they want.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 16, 2012 11:05 AM (jWwDJ)

54
Checked out for a while to get ready for church.

Old Sailor's Poet, thank you for sharing your experience. I, too, just deal with symptoms as there is no "why".

I, too, find love the most effective treatment.
I have picked up some gems from Heather Forbes. I happened into one of her seminars by a lucky mistake.

Gotta go get my little girl ( who is currently making devil noises in her room) and take her to church!

Best of luck to everyone and their little darlings.

Posted by: Justamom at December 16, 2012 11:05 AM (Sptt8)

55 Best of luck to everyone and their little darlings.
Posted by: Justamom at December 16, 2012 11:05 AM (Sptt

Thanks.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:06 AM (3Y7RV)

56 Okay, so this idiot is going to endure her son's daily fucking rampages without putting him in a mental facility where he belongs. All I read in the article was excuses. She and her other children will end up dead because she refuses to check her lunatic kid into a psychiatric hospital; permanently if necessary.

Posted by: SFC MAC at December 16, 2012 11:06 AM (TLbgU)

57 Even if Loughner was under meds, he'd be looking to ditch them 7x24. Pretty much all schizophrenics are like that when unattended. My grandmother spent 50 years cleverly dodging meds, and breaking out of facilities.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 16, 2012 11:06 AM (G0eua)

58 It is every bit as naive thinking that we can "lock up the crazy people" and make the world safe as it is to think we can make it safe by getting rid of guns.
Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at December 16, 2012 11:03 AM (1OZSU)


True. But, you can limit the damage.

As many have posted all over the web, etc, we are a country of 310+million people. Are we doing a good job, or not?

Posted by: beach at December 16, 2012 11:06 AM (LpQbZ)

59 Now, where do we draw the line?

*When you draw a knife on your mom for saying you are wearing the wrong pants.

*When your other siblings have an emergency plan for when you go nuts.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 11:06 AM (uhAkr)

60
It is every bit as naive thinking that we can "lock up the crazy people" and make the world safe as it is to think we can make it safe by getting rid of guns. Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at December 16, 2012 11:03 AM (1OZSU)
Bit of a straw man, frankly. No one thinks we can make the world "safe." Safer, yes. And someone has to draw a line somewhere on who's nuts and needs to be institutionalized. We just need to draw it to include more people than we do now.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:07 AM (4u2LN)

61 Posted by: pep at December 16, 2012 11:04 AM (6TB1Z)

How do you have a 20 year old with no criminal record, involuntarily committed in this country? It's well neigh impossible under current law.

Posted by: DrewM. at December 16, 2012 11:07 AM (UfvyB)

62 But, even though wildly schizophrenic, my grandmother was never a danger to anyone, even herself.

Being nuts doesn't mean you're dangerous per se.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 16, 2012 11:08 AM (G0eua)

63
When I was in college the lefty meme was: How do you know they are the crazy ones? We may be crazy and they are sane!!!1!!!

And I would respond: Get the fuck out of here! You think having hallucinations that the devil is after you is fun? They are suffering, asswipe!

Posted by: Walkers! at December 16, 2012 11:08 AM (jWwDJ)

64 @ 48
I'm reading these comments andhave a suggestion. Let's just line
everybody in the country in a straight line . If you are crazier than
the person in front of you, move up. Now, where do we draw the line?
Three standard deviations from the mean? That would be roughtly 2% of
the population. Two standard deviations from the mean? That would be
roughly 5% of the population. I know, everybody crazier than me. That
would be roughly 25% of the population. Let's just lock them up.
Seriously???



It is every bit as naive thinking that we can "lock up the crazy
people" and make the world safe as it is to think we can make it safe by
getting rid of guns.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at December 16, 2012 11:03 AM (1OZSU)

---
I have a better solution Seamus me boyo.Lets have you take care of the ones who have demonstrated their dangerous proclivitiesIn your homeWithout any special precautions.

Because that is what the rest of us have to deal with daily since the dangerous ones are free to roam at will today.

Posted by: Mark E at December 16, 2012 11:09 AM (3+35n)

65
Being nuts doesn't mean you're dangerous per se.

Of course not. But the warning signs are there in some people. And no one is dangerous until they are.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:10 AM (4u2LN)

66 On the other side, our legal system ain't exactly a crackerjack arbiter of justice and public good.

Pass mental health laws and democrats will try to throw soCons in asylums.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 11:10 AM (uhAkr)

67 Yes, this is a mockable position. But you will regret any increase in
governmental authority that is made in haste. The old days were
terrible.


Well put, and you are correct. The issue, as per #48, is how do you draw a line without unnecessarily infringing the rights of others. There is no magic algorithm, but I think most people now can see that we have erred on the side of flaccid permissiveness, to the point that the only ones whose rights are infringed are the law-abiding middle, who only want to walk down the street without being accosted and send their kids to school without the fear of them being gunned down by a person long ago identified as dangerous.

Posted by: pep at December 16, 2012 11:11 AM (6TB1Z)

68 Yeah, that's fucked up. If you have your 7 and 9 year old kids with emergency plans for when their brother goes psychotic ... Jesus. The kid has to be locked up.

And why does the emergency plan not involve calling an adult or the police? Because then the maniac kid would be arrested or committed.

So the mom's plan is for the 7 and 9 year old to lock themselves in the car --- and not notify any adult or authority figure -- while the pyschotic teen has presumably killed their mother. How is that a plan?

That plan never would work in a worst case scenario. That's a shitty-ass plan. The purpose of that plan is to keep the family secret a secret.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 11:11 AM (ZPrif)

69 I saw no mention of the child's father in that post nor in the comments. That exclusion was stunning to me.

Posted by: Captain Hate (more dagny and less curious) at December 16, 2012 11:12 AM (xrBBO)

70 >Tough to second guess a parent.<

No, not in this situation. This is atypical of people avoiding reality and others paying the price.

The murderers mother even pulled him out of the school system to avoid appropriate labeling and treatment.

She felt, like other parents, it would be a stigma.

So she avoided the truth and now other have paid.

When you deal in facts and realities, not emotional reactions, these are very cogent, intellectual conclusions.

People simply try to avoid the very difficult consequences and circumstances for selfish reasons.

Then others always pay the price while parents (if they survive) babble on about "what a good kid he was" and how there were "no signs".

Bullshit.

Posted by: marcus at December 16, 2012 11:12 AM (Sosux)

71 Some of these posts are hard to read and even harder to comment on. I won't expect those who don't live it to understand. If I thought my child was a danger to others I would take steps. She's not.

I think the Lanzas of the world are killers who suffer from a mental disability, not because of it. Bundy, Speck, Gacy, and a full list of others were just straight up evil. Evil exsist in all, it's just at what level.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:13 AM (3Y7RV)

72 How do you have a 20 year old with no criminal record, involuntarily
committed in this country? It's well neigh impossible under current law.


You can't, and that's the problem. The laws need to change.

Posted by: pep at December 16, 2012 11:13 AM (6TB1Z)

73
Pass mental health laws and democrats will try to throw soCons in asylums.

Yeah, but that's as a matter of practice, as things currently stand. We're talking about principle.

Also note that legislation won't do it; the problem is a SupremeCourt ruling holding the old involuntary commitment laws unconstitutional. Chances are they'd do the same to new ones too.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:13 AM (4u2LN)

74 I've been reading a lot of twitter and blog comment threads on the CT shooting since Friday, and one thing that leaps out at me is the stupefying level of ignorance of some people on The Left:

1) many think the 2nd Amendment 'created' a right:

2) many think the President is able or should be able to simply strike the 2nd Amendment from the Constitution;


3) many believe that the 2nd Amendment means you should only be allowed to own a muzzle-loading musket


4) many would happily ban all private possession of guns, throw us in all in jail, and throw away the key

Posted by: Jones in CO at December 16, 2012 11:13 AM (8sCoq)

75
To the comment that a minor can be committed by their parent without committing a crime, I'd say this: It costs a lot of money to commit someone full time like that; likely more than most people have. So they are stuck living with non-violent ( so far ) and unstable children. As far as I know how the system works now, when the minor gets old enough, they can go off on their own unless a judge has ruled them incompetent; which is a toughy to get. Society has NO mechanism outside of jail once a crime has been comitted for treatment against the will of the patient. I could be wrong, and have nothing to back up my points. Heah, it's the interweb thing..

Posted by: Yip at December 16, 2012 11:13 AM (/jHWN)

76 >>>57 Even if Loughner was under meds, he'd be looking to ditch them 7x24. Pretty much all schizophrenics are like that when unattended. My grandmother spent 50 years cleverly dodging meds, and breaking out of facilities.
Posted by: @PurpAv a

Not everybody is your grandmother. The drugs today are much better, too. Loughner was living at home and being supported by his parents. Many schizophrenics live quite normal lives when their meds are working. But, yeah, it helps to have a support system.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 16, 2012 11:13 AM (jWwDJ)

77 I saw no mention of the child's father in that post nor in the comments. That exclusion was stunning to me.
Posted by: Captain Hate (more dagny and less curious) at December 16, 2012 11:12 AM (xrBBO)

He said Fuck it and bailed. He wanted a "Normal life".

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:14 AM (3Y7RV)

78 How do you have a 20 year old with no criminal record, involuntarily
committed in this country? It's well neigh impossible under current law.


This really is the crux of it, isn't it. No prosecutor wants to charge in a case where they'd clearly lose due to diminished capacity, yet that is precisely what is needed to get them institutionalized.

In term NICS, those adjudications are supposed to be forwarded into the NICS system, but often aren't. The criminal stuff ain't so bad, but the psych stuff is still very spotty.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 16, 2012 11:15 AM (G0eua)

79 Now, where do we draw the line?

*When you draw a knife on your mom for saying you are wearing the wrong pants.

*When your other siblings have an emergency plan for when you go nuts.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 11:06 AM (uhAkr)



yeah, these are major red flags of distress



Posted by: beach at December 16, 2012 11:16 AM (LpQbZ)

80 I'll tell you what, why don't all those who want to put everyone under a nuthouse senario go and be the ones evaluated via the new DSM. They have listed every emotion as a potential mental illness. An industry who will use pharma on everyone they can, and a society so malnourished anymore, lacking in both community, proper education, proper food,and lacking in proper parenting due to being over worked, and put in front of televisions as age 1 week old when it is warned to keep em away from tellie till at least 3 years old, and voila the answer is yet again institutions, and made up labels and psuedo science diseases. Talk about wanting to really help the issues, then let's really be honest about society as a whole, otherwise it is all bull talk, yet again of fake labels and institutions.

Posted by: Influence Freedom at December 16, 2012 11:16 AM (px7Yf)

81 >Yes, this is a mockable position. But you will regret any increase in

governmental authority that is made in haste. The old days were

terrible.<

Strawman burning.

Who said increase in governmental authority? How about a simple rational, unbiased opinion grounded in facts and numerous opinions with required treatment?

How about not letting people like this murderers mom navigate around the system that exists?

Posted by: marcus at December 16, 2012 11:17 AM (Sosux)

82
Many schizophrenics live quite normal lives when their meds are working.


And, more importantly, they're actually taking them.Patient compliance is apparently a particular problem with the mentally ill.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:17 AM (4u2LN)

83 Well, I'm done with this topic. We have few facts and it is silly to speculate to the degree we all are trying to fill in the blanks. I also don't think one extreme case merits changing laws and locking everyone up or taking away gun ownership. As they say - bad facts make bad law.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 16, 2012 11:17 AM (jWwDJ)

84 Purple Avenger @ 36

That describes my nephew. A really bright kid, skilled with his hands and thinking, does not do well in many social situations. Excellent guitar player.

comatus @ 39
Yes, I used to live a few blocks from a State Mental institution in my home town. Most of the people there were harmless and not locked up. Some were just people being "warehoused" because there was no family and nowhere for them to go. Some just couldn' t function in society on their own.

There was also a criminal ward with people on lockdown. Twice someone dangerous escaped _ the same guy within a couple days time. How? Who knows? He scared the daylights out of an old lady down the street when he broke into her home and threw her sewing machine through her front window.
Mental illness is not a club we should use to beat people, but there should be an alternative to allowing borderline psychotics to "mainstream" with the rest of society in hopes that they will "heal themselves" I know that's not what you meant, but there doesn't seem to be be path for people with very troubled children or family to follow without criminalizing someone, which what makes people think that they must work it out on their own.

Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch is Eddie Willers at December 16, 2012 11:17 AM (Md8Uo)

85 "People don't become schizophrenic or otherwise
seriously psychotic because liberals have undermined the male role in
society..."

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:04 AM (4u2LN)

There is a clear distinction between what we perceive as antisocial behavior as a result of our new and improved permissive society, and chemically-based mental illness.

The first can be repaired with behavioral modification; the second is intractable and can never be cured. That is why the violent mentally ill are such dangers.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 16, 2012 11:17 AM (GsoHv)

86 Yeah, but that's as a matter of practice, as things currently stand. We're talking about principle.

There is a bedrock principle that the goverent will avbise amd
Misuse any power it is given.

If they declare you insane, what is your recourse?

If the government diagnosis your kid with some bullshit condition cooked up by a pseudoscience, should they be able to take over his care from you?

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 11:19 AM (uhAkr)

87 Loughner was living at home and being supported by his parents.

That kind of "support" entails making sure they're downing the candy, watching for it being tongued, palmed, or otherwise avoided. I know the drill man. My grandmother only died a few years ago, not 50 years ago.


Posted by: @PurpAv at December 16, 2012 11:19 AM (G0eua)

88
An industry who will use pharma on everyone they can, and a society so malnourished anymore, lacking in both community, proper education, proper food,and lacking in proper parenting due to being over worked, and put in front of televisions as age 1 week old when it is warned to keep em away from tellie till at least 3 years old, and voila the answer is yet again institutions, and made up labels and psuedo science diseases.

Malnourished? Seriously?

It's nothing to do with Twinkies or anything else. Some people are nuts, dangerously psychotic, and it's not a function of their environment but of their neurochemistry. That's why modern anti-psychotic drugs work.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:20 AM (4u2LN)

89
>>I remember one particular lib asshole who got into it with me over Ronald Reagan. She claimed he was cruel because he shut down California's mental hospitals when he was governor, and they were forced out into the streets.

I had the same coversation with my wife a few years back.
It's amazing. I've seen and heard more than a few times, liberal pundit hacks repeating this same lie. They know full well know the truth behind the story, but brazenly put the blame on Reagan for their disatrous actions.

Posted by: Albie Damned at December 16, 2012 11:21 AM (Yhu4q)

90 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 16, 2012 11:17 AM (GsoHv)Well said, Charlie.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:21 AM (4u2LN)

91 Reading this really gives me chills. We try so, so hard to manage our 7 year old (Aspergers, SPD) but I fear that one day we might have to put him in a secure in patient setting if he does not outgrow his rage. And yes, we homeschool because the school district couldn't manage him. Yes, we see a neurologist. Yes, he's had therapy.

It still scares me. Aspergers is more than just "awkward".

Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:21 AM (wsGWu)

92 Prayer to St. Dymphna

Lord, our God, you graciously chose St. Dymphna as patroness of those afflicted with mental and nervous disorders. She is thus an inspiration and a symbol of charity to the thousands who ask her intercession.

Please grant, Lord, through the prayers of this pure youthful martyr, relief and consolation to all suffering such trials, and especially those for whom we pray. (mention request)

We beg you, Lord, to hear the prayers of St. Dymphna on our behalf. Grant all those for whom we pray patience in their sufferings and resignation to your divine will. Please fill them with hope, and grant them the relief and cure they so much desire.

We ask this through Christ our Lord who suffered agony in the garden. Amen.

Another prayer to St. Dymphna

O Virgin and heroic Martyr, we know very little about your origin, but many have learned to invoke you and several have claimed to have been helped. It is said that you remained faithful to your Divine Bridegroom to the end, resisting the lusts of your pagan father and preferring a martyr's death. Please intercede for this mental patient that he (she) may give glory to God. Amen.

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 16, 2012 11:21 AM (GVxQo)

93 I don't know how you get around the civil rights of institutionalizing people against their will that aren't obvious raving lunatics.

I guarantee you this Lanza kid would have talked his way out of mental institution on Day 1. He wouldn't like being there, would know how to call a lawyer, and he'd be home within 24 hours. The big "rub" is, how do we separate the cases where it's a parent that's really concerned about safety from one that just doesn't want to raise their adult "kid" anymore?

In the "good old days" if a family asked for someone to be institutionalized, it was done and they could hold someone against their will without much interference.

Moving forward though, anyone who has a mentally troubled kid should not have guns at their home. Period. And this is coming from the biggest gun nut you'll ever meet.

Posted by: Jeepers at December 16, 2012 11:22 AM (XDRsa)

94 I have a relative who's schizophrenic, he lives in a halfway house i guess you'd call it, it's a place for people who can function somewhat ok when on their meds but can't take care of themselves completely. Most of my family won't go visit him because even when he's on his meds he scares them, he hears voices and goes on weird rambling rants about his paranoid fantasies. And yeah, he's only in the halfway house because he was convicted of tying to harm someone.

But still, like i said, i think we should tread very carefully with this line of defense for the 2nd because it can, and will, be turned against us.

Posted by: booger at December 16, 2012 11:23 AM (HI6wa)

95 It still scares me. Aspergers is more than just "awkward".
Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:21 AM (wsGWu)


I'm sitting here just shaking my head at all of the people that go through some of the same issues we do. Sad that it took this tragedy to connect.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:23 AM (3Y7RV)

96
They know full well know the truth behind the story, but brazenly put the blame on Reagan for their disatrous actions.


In fairness, I don't think most liberals do know the full truth. The Reds who pushed that story know it, but your average liberal, who has duck feathers for brains, does not. This is what happens when low information/low IQ types meet Red agitprop.

Bonus question: how many liberals think that the President determines the budget? ("Bush spent all that money!")

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:23 AM (4u2LN)

97 The Compassionates under Carter closed all the mental hospitals.

They created networks of short-lived, but ridiculously unworkable and exhorbitantly expensive group homes for retarded people. They also closed work programs that gave people with limited abilities something useful to do because the evil corporations were exploiting them -- translation they weren't being paid union wages. So they were left to stagnate in sub-standard facilities run by the unions.

Mentally disturbed people were put out on the streets with instructions to take their meds. When they got into trouble, they were sent to jail.

What we don't need is the hoopla of gun control. What we need is for adults to step up and take people who can't take care of themselves and can't be trusted not to hurt themselves or others off the streets and into controlled environments even if it doesn't conform to the idiotic fantasies of the left. In the end, it's still true that guns and knives, etc. don't kill or hurt people, it's the people who are wielding them who do.

Posted by: erp at December 16, 2012 11:24 AM (UXPcj)

98 I am pretty sure Obamacare fixes all this.


See page 2,371, paragraph 35, sentence 12. "The Secretary shall..."

Posted by: nip at December 16, 2012 11:24 AM (11Tdq)

99 This mom is also teaching her young children its ok to allow an abusive person into your life. It's ok to keep them around regardless of the deadly, daily threat against their lives. These kids are learning some very dangerous lessons that will probably lead them into miserable adult lives. I've seen this myself. My sister enabled her abusive son to make a daily impact on everyones' lives, including the siblings. Now I watch them allow lying, abusive creeps into their lives. It's their normal.

Posted by: Bon Qui Qui at December 16, 2012 11:24 AM (jhv75)

100 Of course, even if the law allowed parents to more easily commit their own children, many of these mothers wouldn't do it. They remember their little boy before the bad brain wiring turned him psycho. They've seen the good side of him. They will do everything they can to hide their dangerous child from the world.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 11:24 AM (ZPrif)

101 Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:20 AM (4u2LN)

"Neurochemistry?"

That's a big word. And one that many people do not understand. Even bright, well-educated people cannot appreciate what neurochemical problems cause.



Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 16, 2012 11:25 AM (GsoHv)

102 >Moving forward though, anyone who has a mentally troubled kid should not have guns at their home. Period.


Agreed. I wonder if Lanza's mother's guns WERE under lock and key- and he got that key after killing her.

Posted by: Jones in CO at December 16, 2012 11:25 AM (8sCoq)

103 I feel for the younger siblings, as well. They'll end up with issues of their own, even if they are not mentally ill.

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at December 16, 2012 11:26 AM (uiI1p)

104 Also, for every gun control thread, it would be nice to see this video get posted every time!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvTO-y-B2YM&sns=em

No one makes the point better.

Posted by: Bon Qui Qui at December 16, 2012 11:26 AM (jhv75)

105 >>>That kind of "support" entails making sure they're downing the candy, watching for it being tongued, palmed, or otherwise avoided. I know the drill man. My grandmother only died a few years ago, not 50 years ago. Posted by: @PurpAv

For the noncompliant there are IM drugs that last for a month.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 16, 2012 11:26 AM (jWwDJ)

106 Agreed, OSP.

Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:27 AM (wsGWu)

107 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 16, 2012 11:25 AM (GsoHv)Good point, Charlie. I guess I should put it as a "chemical imbalance in their brains." It's just that that sounds a bit New Agey to me, and makes me think that the next stop will be that asshole Deepak Chopra doing a telethon with Shirley MacLaine.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:28 AM (4u2LN)

108 I feel for the younger siblings, as well. They'll end up with issues of their own, even if they are not mentally ill.
Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at December 16, 2012 11:26 AM (uiI1p)

Actually our Daughter has become extremly empathetic in dealing with her older sister. At the same time we ensure that she gets special private time with and without us. She's a little rock.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:28 AM (3Y7RV)

109 @52

No I was serious. Tough to figure out what to do. I never actually thought about the dad skipping town and leaving the mom with the kid.

Sort of puts the thing in a different light.

It sounds like the entire family was somewhat dysfunctional.

NO mention of any church involvement from anyone in the family.

Churches and their members are a huge resources for families with these problems.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at December 16, 2012 11:28 AM (wR+pz)

110 All this hand wringing is why nothing will be really fixed, and we'll float from one bad option to another. There have always been dangerous nut jobs - it's part of the hazard of living. No system we devise will give us total security, and the harder we try the worse the cost will be.
If we look at most of these horrible massacres, we can see plain, obvious steps that should have been takenin most cases. The fact that every school in the US has the words "SOFT TARGET" painted on the side is problem number one. Teachers should be armed - as a requirement, not an option.Especially in thie middle/high schools, where they are liable toget beaten or raped by the students these days.That would give us some hope that these horrid episodes would be atleast somewhat contained/mitigated. As for the gross non-conformists who indulge violent fantasies (not many of these whack jobs were shy about hinting at their plans), who areusually diagnosable - either lock 'em up, or put them down. Either is fine with me.
Our foolish desire to saveeverybody, and have total security without the cost, inconvenience, or emotional pain of dealingwith the psychos in our midst is allowing these worst case scenarios to play out over and over. It's the price of fundamental unseriousness.Which in turn means that we're stuck with it, as the US is probably the most un-serious nation/culture on earththese days.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 16, 2012 11:28 AM (jfeoD)

111 Thanks for the link Ace.

The reason why mental hospitals were removed by the left, is because they were being abused to lock up all the "undesirables" in society, not just those who are a danger to themselves and others.

So, just like "gun control" laws, they removed the symptom instead of the disease.

This is what happens when the Leftists win.

Posted by: Gork at December 16, 2012 11:29 AM (jxDi4)

112 bon qui qui

....so just take the broken less than perfect people and throw them aside? what would that teach the other "normal" kids in the family? mummy only loves you if you act a certain way? this mom and her children know the drill when he acts out they need to protect themselves and get to a safe place...this mom is doing the best she can with the cards she's been dealt with and without help......her son is still a kid 13 yrs old and he needs to be under professional care but he can't be tossed on the street or shunned by his family.....jeez......

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 16, 2012 11:29 AM (GVxQo)

113

What's so disturbing is they are coming after the children. The small, innocent children.

This massacre.
The China one.
The bastards shooting the small girls for attending school in the crapholemiddleeast.

Is it just me, or do we see a new pattern, here?

Posted by: beach at December 16, 2012 11:30 AM (LpQbZ)

114 Maybe we could cripple the insane? A good staple to the spine would limit how dangerous they are.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 11:30 AM (uhAkr)

115

--even using children as suicide bombers.

it's out of control

Posted by: beach at December 16, 2012 11:31 AM (LpQbZ)

116 I agree with your sentiments, but I don't thinkthey're really relevant to mass murderers. People don't become schizophrenic or otherwise seriously psychotic because liberals have undermined the male role in society, and the seriously psychotic are those responsible for mass murders.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:04 AM (4u2LN)


While the male role in society (or lack thereof) does not cause mental illness, it can have a contributing factor to how that illness plays out.

Right now we have a society that is increasingly excluding young males. When you do that, they will either act like petulant boys, or their physical aggression (which in an earlier age would have been tempered by the expectations of society), is left wild and out of control.

While most young men won't go out and kill people, those without that control would be more likely to lash out violently when there was no real limits set for them, especially when they don't have a father who is proactive in their lives.

It isn't the only cause, but I feel that it is at least one of the contributing factors on why we are seeing violent massacres as the result of mental illness among boys and young men.

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 16, 2012 11:31 AM (sZTYJ)

117 Yeah, the impact on siblings worries me to. My son isn't violent, but.he screams and yells and that frightens the younger kids. They already know to get away from him, instinctively, when he rages.

Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:31 AM (wsGWu)

118 Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:28 AM (4u2LN)

Yes!

Psychotherapy has done more damage than we know.

How many people are "chemically imbalanced" but go for talk therapy three days/week for 20 years?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 16, 2012 11:31 AM (GsoHv)

119 The government already locks 2 million people against their will. Adding a few more of the most violently insane isn't some radical change to our system.

And with the spread of drug legalizatio
n that 2 million # will likely drop.

Nobody is saying "lock everybody up". But we do need to do a better job of finding these young male psychos before they strike and, yes, locking them up.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 11:32 AM (ZPrif)

120 Except Eris Harris' parents were more interested in running interference for him.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 16, 2012 11:32 AM (MPjT8)

121 Jeez, why does it seem Drew is wrong about everything?

Of course there is therapy, drugs and treatment! It works when it's tried. The problem is, there are too many quacks practicing, and not enough people who recognize how to deal with them.

You don't need to lock them away.

It's a shame, Drew. I was right there with you until you tried to solve a problem about which you obviously know nothing.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 16, 2012 11:32 AM (BeSEI)

122 It is every bit as naive thinking that we can "lock up the crazy people" and make the world safe as it is to think we can make it safe by getting rid of guns. Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at December 16, 2012 11:03 AM (1OZSU) ---I have a better solution Seamus me boyo.Lets have you take care of the ones who have demonstrated their dangerous proclivitiesIn your homeWithout any special precautions.Because that is what the rest of us have to deal with daily since the dangerous ones are free to roam at will today.
Posted by: Mark E at December 16, 2012 11:09 AM (3+35n)

*****

I understand what you are saying MarkE Mark. The science of predicting human behavior is hardly a rigorous science. People are seeking a way to feel safe, but there is no practical way to implement a strategy of "locking up the really crazy people" and "medicating the sorta crazy people" in a country of 300 million people unless we are willing to be locked up ourselves. As the old stock market caveat goes, "Past performance is no guarantee of future results." I challenge anyone on this site who has posted a comment that their family member "would never harm anybody" to prove it. They may feel it, they may 'believe' it, and it may be true, but it is not provable.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at December 16, 2012 11:32 AM (1OZSU)

123
Teachers should be armed - as a requirement, not an option


I wouldn't want the garden variety elementary school teacher to be armed, and think it's unrealistic to propose such.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:34 AM (4u2LN)

124 OSP, I meant the ones in this story that have to run out to the car and lock the doors to get away from their brother.

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at December 16, 2012 11:34 AM (uiI1p)

125 Anything else on the supposed Adam Lanza fight with the teachers days before the murders? Why would he be there?

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 16, 2012 11:34 AM (AWmfW)

126 WE ALL HAVE ISSUES IN OUR FAMILIES....omg....yeah, her "normal" kids are going to have issues.....so get rid of the abnormal one? great.....i have several friends in the real world who have 3 and 4 kids and one of the kids is afflicted with some kind of shitty hand.....ranging from physical to mental to both....the lovingly way the brothers and sisters handle their broken family member is BEAUTIFUL...and a reminder of our HUMANITY...

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 16, 2012 11:34 AM (GVxQo)

127 How ironic that the woman who wrote the column about her struggles with her potentially homicidal son has as her avatar on her web site a cute little cartoon image wearing a beret with a Soviet star and an "I heart Che" t-shirt, given that the Soviets in general and Che in particular were mass murderers on a grand scale.

Yet she writes elsewhere on her blog that she loves Reagan.

Crazy is as crazy does, I guess.

Posted by: Boston12GS at December 16, 2012 11:35 AM (iZ0BY)

128 This discussion reminds me of two quotes that came up with the Giffords shooting. I do not recall where I saw them or who said them, but they are nonetheless relevant:

"One man's mental health intervention is another's police state, or Department of Pre-Crime."

...and...

"Freedom is not free. A free society has no choice but to put up with a great deal of bizarre behavior. I have not seen enough of this chap's public warning behavior, but what I have heard so far doesn't seem all that different from what I can read on a number of web sites. He doesn't seem to have been as passionate about whatever disturbed him as I have seen on both sides of a number of issues including Climate Change. Would you have forcibly intervened in his life prior to his pulling the trigger?"

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 16, 2012 11:35 AM (sZTYJ)

129 Yeah, the impact on siblings worries me to. My son isn't violent, but.he screams and yells and that frightens the younger kids. They already know to get away from him, instinctively, when he rages.
Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:31 AM (wsGWu)

Except for extreme situations, noisy restaurants, overly tired and stimulated, she doesn't act out in public. She holds it all in the explodes at home. Her teachers refused to see she even had a problem until one day by accident, her principle saw her in the car with my wife when my wife denied her something.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:35 AM (3Y7RV)

130 It's hard not to notice that the left is enthralled with the idea of
aborting the harmlessly defective such as, say, Trig Palin, but they
hold a special place in their hearts for trying to fix people who are bright but dangerous.

Posted by: Zippity Doo Dah at December 16, 2012 11:35 AM (E55AK)

131 Churches and their members are a huge resources for families with these problems. 


Until they ask you not to bring your son back to the nursery because he's throwing things in a rage and scaring the other children.
We're Christians, but we haven't been to church in 5 years.

Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:35 AM (wsGWu)

132 her son is still a kid 13 yrs old and he needs to be under professional care but he can't be tossed on the street or shunned by his family.....jeez......
Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 16, 2012 11:29 AM (GVxQo)



I don't think anyone is proposing "tossing them out on the street" or being "shunned."

This particular family seems to be living in fear. The other children are being affected. Imagine your childhood, growing up in fear?

If, by chance, one day, a sibling is killed because of not isolating the child who erupts in violent tirades, then what? There is no hindsight in this case.

A parent can only watch over their children so much in a day. We aren't talking about an accident, slipping down the stairs, or running out in the street in a split second.

This household lives in fear, and is under so much strain.

Posted by: beach at December 16, 2012 11:36 AM (LpQbZ)

133 Arming the teachers is NOT the answer. They have another job that should be occupying their time. MD has assigned deputies that spend their days being present in the schools. That is not to say nothing will happen, but when it does you have someone right down the hall.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at December 16, 2012 11:36 AM (jucos)

134 @112

No, what I read was that this young man takes deadly weapons and in a very real way threatens his family. That is a little beyond the "less than perfect" description you're attempting to direct my comments toward. Apples meet oranges.

Posted by: Bon Qui Qui at December 16, 2012 11:36 AM (jhv75)

135 costs about 4 times as much to put someone in the looney bin as a prison. Anybody want to put in another entitlement ?

Posted by: occam at December 16, 2012 11:37 AM (bNPll)

136 beach

bon qui's comment at 99....she/he doesn't say that but what else can be inferred?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 16, 2012 11:37 AM (GVxQo)

137 It's hard not to notice that the left is enthralled with the idea of
aborting the harmlessly defective such as, say, Trig Palin, but they
hold a special place in their hearts for trying to fix people who are bright but dangerous.
Posted by: Zippity Doo Dah at December 16, 2012 11:35 AM (E55AK)



The hypocrisy of the liberal sect knows no bounds.

They are always wrong. Always.

Posted by: beach at December 16, 2012 11:38 AM (LpQbZ)

138 Deinstitutionalization has many flaws, but I'm not sure the solution is reinstitutionalization. When people are placed in bureaucratic institutions like that the inhumanity is often horrifying. Look to the NHS, or look up pictures from Byberry Hospital circa 1946, if you need some illustrations of this.

Posted by: wte9 at December 16, 2012 11:38 AM (6Tcdo)

139 Teachers are the dumbest, most immature, least in contact with reality group of adults on earth.

And you want to arm them?

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 11:39 AM (uhAkr)

140 It's clear that we need to have some sort of community mental health facility, where we can have someone involuntarily committed for a short period of time for evaluation. We could afford that, if we stop locking people up for minor drug offenses.

And here's a thought, since we want to take back the culture, maybe conservatives need to consider mental health as a career. Because we can't allow this current situation to continue, where dangerous people are allowed to endanger us all.

Posted by: notsothoreau at December 16, 2012 11:39 AM (uPhCY)

141 OSP, I meant the ones in this story that have to run out to the car and lock the doors to get away from their brother.
Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at December 16, 2012 11:34 AM (uiI1p)

I know what you meant, we're cool, the point I was making is there are thousands of levels and combinations of maladies and children involved and parents with their own problems and psychosis.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:39 AM (3Y7RV)

142 Occam's Razor, people, Occam's Razor. The simplest solution is Let Every Man Be Armed. That, and somehow de-stigmatize mental health issues so that parents will feel more comfortable getting their children the necessary treatment earlier.

I find it interesting that we conservatives are all about personal freedoms and responsibility until it comes to the issue of mental health. Then we are all about forcibly making choices for parents and other adults.

To be consistent with conservative values, we must leave these decisions to the parents - as flawed as they may be, and yes, not forcibly incarcerate a legal adult until they actually commit a crime. To paraphrase Franklin, when we value safety over freedom, we get neither.

We joke about leftism being a mental illness. Well, the last thing you and I want is some unelected official deciding that conservatism is a mental illness.

Posted by: Ace O'Dale at December 16, 2012 11:40 AM (yHbsV)

143 We finally have the right people in power to make decisions as to who is and is not mentally ill.

Looking forward to meeting my fellow bitter clingers!

Posted by: t-bird at December 16, 2012 11:40 AM (FcR7P)

144 The murderers mother was a prolific gun owner and shooter. It was reported a close friend of her's confirmed that.

The guns are registered to her.

The murderer tried to buy a gun on his own before the murders and was denied. I don't know whether it was NICS or something else.

It was also reported she taught him to shoot.

Given her murderous, despicable son's condition I would say she was one of the main contributors to this tragedy. And totally fucking clueless.

Posted by: marcus at December 16, 2012 11:40 AM (Sosux)

145 I've been doing this work for almost 35 years. I remember well the emptying of the mental institutions just before my time and the community mental health centers that were supposed to take their place--except you couldn't get the patients to show up for their appointments. I could go on for hours. Guns are a side issue. It is having dangerous people at home that is the problem. And mothers/parents in denial.

When I started in practice, nearly 2/3 of the homeless were mentally ill people thrown out of the mental hospitals. They couldn't cut it at home or a group living home. They were too sick.

The most dangerous thing in everyone's home is the kitchen knife drawer. That is usually where they go first when they are escalating to violence.

Posted by: SurferDoc at December 16, 2012 11:40 AM (6H6FZ)

146 No. But havea school marshal armed and ready to respond.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 16, 2012 11:41 AM (MPjT8)

147

bon qui's comment at 99....she/he doesn't say that but what else can be inferred?
Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 16, 2012 11:37 AM (GVxQo)



We should let he/she clarify, I guess.

I don't think anyone here on this thread condones abuse, just focused care, and protecting others.

I know this is a technical term, but we are talking about risk assessment.

The risk of allowing one to roam society at will versus the harm he/she could do to an innocent.

Posted by: beach at December 16, 2012 11:41 AM (LpQbZ)

148 For the noncompliant there are IM drugs that last for a month.

If they're non-compliant, they're looking for a way to escape and will do so at the first opportunity.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 16, 2012 11:42 AM (G0eua)

149 I wouldn't want the garden variety elementary school teacher to be armed, and think it's unrealistic to propose such.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:34 AM (4u2LN)



What, exactly, do you think is going to happen if they're armed? They'll shoot the kids? Do we live in a society where we let people teach our kids who are unqualified to handle a fire arm? We preach the right to keep and bear arms for every grade-school educated redneck yokel, but theteachers can't be trusted? Yes - I know most of them are fucking libs. Doesn't matter. They're the adults on the scene. They are currently defenseless. In the inner cities they are regularly beaten and raped by students, not just nutters from the outside.

An armed society is a polite society, and the more heavily armed the normals are, the less likely the nut jobs are to rack up such a high body count.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 16, 2012 11:42 AM (jfeoD)

150 144 marcus

this is the concern i have....i have no problem with her having her guns, but he should never have had access to them.....i'm sure what started as a way to connect with him, taking him shooting, was done before the full blown psychosis set in so teaching him to shoot doesn't bother me, but him having access to the weapons does.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 16, 2012 11:42 AM (GVxQo)

Posted by: nip at December 16, 2012 11:42 AM (11Tdq)

152 52
"Then, ironically, the party of the collective decided that the rights of
the most dysfunctional individuals should trump the greater good"

Great sentence, perfectly distilling leftist idiocy.


Posted by: Jim Sonweed at December 16, 2012 11:43 AM (9gW0q)

153
Teachers are the dumbest, most immature, least in contact with reality group of adults on earth.

=======
Kind of a broad brush there.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 16, 2012 11:44 AM (MPjT8)

154 There was a link in the sidebar to the UK Telegraph about a man photographing people that look alike yet are not twins. And on that page was a link to an article about the shooting and the pictures of the children.
And typically, in the comments, more calls for "gun control" and our "outmoded Constitution". From the Brits, and others.

The Constitution is the structure of law and philosophy the underlies our government. A whole raft of laws and codes and been written and passed by Congress to enumerate these in more detail, from the empowering articles.

There are legions of people in and out of government that want to beaver away at any Constitutional restraints on government, for "our own good" and for other not so good reasons.

Frankly, most politicians would like to eviscerate most of the Constitution but keep it's form to point to and keep all us sheep placid and peaceful.

As Justice Jackson once said, "The Constitution is not a suicide pact". Somewhere there is a fine line to allow the government to institutionalize the truly psychotic, without mistreating them, and protecting the rest of society from their possible dangers.

This is not the way things will go in the next few weeks. Pronouncements, half truths and lies, Mike Bloomberg already acting like the pompous ass that he always is as the barometer for what the Liberal - Know -It - All really thinks.

It will all be pretty Pavlovian, with the predictable stupid statements and relfexive stupid responses. The problem is not guns or ownership, it's the limited treatment orrecognitionof people with strongly suggested sociopathic problems running around loose on the streets and basically being untouchable until they do something truly awful. My cousin was a cop for 30 years and saw this sort of thing played out all the time.

Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch is Eddie Willers at December 16, 2012 11:44 AM (Md8Uo)

155 The don't-bring-back-the-psych-wards argument is silly. We already brought them back. They are called prisons. Where prisoners are routinely raped by other prisoners.

The issue is how to improve things on the margin. Every systems will have abuses. People get locked up now on false rape charges.

And for those who care about the 2nd amendment, we have to do a better job of preventing these tragedies because the public responds so emotionally. Our entire ruling class would gut the amendment if it could. The only thing holding them back is a few judges and public opinion.

But public opinion is massively shifted by atrocities that involve children.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 11:45 AM (ZPrif)

156 MD has assigned deputies that spend their days being present in the schools. That is not to say nothing will happen, but when it does you have someone right down the hall.
Posted by: Truck Monkey at December 16, 2012 11:36 AM (jucos)



Great idea. Tie up law enforcement resources to cover every school, just in case we have that 1 ina million episode. Sheesh. Good thing we don't have any other crimes going on, nor crime ridden slums that grow bigger every day because even so-called conservatives think we should pay the underclass to breed like rats. Hell - let's station soldiers at all the schools, too. Even safer that way!

Posted by: Reactionary at December 16, 2012 11:45 AM (jfeoD)

157 >Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 16, 2012 11:42 AM (GVxQo)
<

You are absolutely correct.

After appropriate diagnosis, the real issue is keeping guns completely out of homes in which people with mental illness live.

That is beyond irresponsible.

You want protection? Get an an alarm and PP dog.

Posted by: marcus at December 16, 2012 11:46 AM (Sosux)

158 153

Teachers are the dumbest, most immature, least in contact with reality group of adults on earth.

=======
Kind of a broad brush there.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 16, 2012 11:44 AM (MPjT

You ever met any of our members?

Posted by: Congressional Black Caucus at December 16, 2012 11:46 AM (wR+pz)

159 These are the kinds of kids my wife teaches at her public school. The parents and grandparents do want to get their children institutionalized help, especially when there are other siblings in the home, but it is very difficult and the process is long. School districts are only allowed to send a small percentage of their students out of district for more restrictive education, which also puts a kink in things because there are many, far too many, of these kids in each of the districts.

Posted by: myrenovations at December 16, 2012 11:46 AM (qHDhr)

160 Teachers are the dumbest, most immature, least in contact with reality group of adults on earth.

I was a teacher, I thought a good one. Middle School math. Thanks for your input.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:46 AM (3Y7RV)

161 @136
I think this entire thread is about how there's really no good choices out there. My heart goes out to all parents who struggle with these issues. I also believe in keeping people safe as much as possible.

Posted by: Bon Qui Qui at December 16, 2012 11:46 AM (jhv75)

162 Do we live in a society where we let people teach our kids who are unqualified to handle a fire arm?

Absolutely. At the schools around here (Silicon Valley) there might be a single maintenance worker whom you'd trust with a gun. Or maybe an old gym teacher.

Posted by: t-bird at December 16, 2012 11:46 AM (FcR7P)

163
I fully support the mental health levies when they come up on the ballots.
Any additional support these families can get the better

Posted by: Albie Damned at December 16, 2012 11:47 AM (Yhu4q)

164 if we start with the big, obvious systemic problems (de-institutionalization) we'd be a lot further along the right path.
**
I'm shaking my head, imagining that sooner than later, the public education system will be FOR the mentally challenged populace. About the only "safe" way to raise children, is home school, the only way to insure what your kids are learning -- DIY.

Otherwise, compassionate conservatism... close your eyes, bury your head, na-na-na-na refrain.

As if closing the large State Mental Health facilities (dorms/schools) in favor of "privatizing" the deranged into "homes" in "small" groups is going to prevent the broad scale fraud of tax dollars, or better treat those in need, given paperwork that "licenses" opportunists to do their best/worst, always with the "best" of intentions, of course.

Texas closed its books on allowing needy mental patients state facility treatment and care. No more than 12 a year are permitted to "join" the tax funded legislated program sponsored by a physician and signed by Gov. Rick Perry.

Beginning during gestation, every American (particularly given ObamaCare with mandates, no choice) is being bombarded by vaccinations that dramatically impact neurological development with severe negative outcomes. Back when boomers were still tykes, we knew it was wrong to take ANY drugs or have ANY vaccination during pregnancy. Women were regularly screened for pregnancy before being given the measles vaccination. And the babies born after gestating in the womb of a woman taking drugs (smoking, drinking, whatever) had physical problems compared to the norm, including smaller birth weight, slower development throughout childhood, more sickly. The main chemical difference between then and now is how prevalent pharmaceutical ingestion is in most American lives, and long term (lifetime) at that. That while pharmaceutical industries advertise non-stop throughout the MFM. The negative side effects take longer to list than the pleasant initial propaganda message, but people only hear what they want to hear. People are such dupes, thinking the more the better, that they "deserve" the "best" (which they interpret to mean the most) ingestion of prescriptions available.

Posted by: panzernashorn at December 16, 2012 11:47 AM (BAnPT)

165 The human brain is the most complicated organic thing that exists. It is fantastically complex. We have just scratched the surface (NPI) as to how it works. In the old days, "tortured souls" might knife a few people, but now they blaze away with guns. We may have to separate these people from society more and that will require $. Maybe take some of the $ spent in Shitholeistan and spend it on our people.

Posted by: SFGoth at December 16, 2012 11:47 AM (YJKtf)

166 142 Occam's Razor, people, Occam's Razor. The simplest solution is Let Every Man Be Armed.
Posted by: Ace O'Dale at December 16, 2012 11:40 AM (yHbsV)





This.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 16, 2012 11:47 AM (jfeoD)

167
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 16, 2012 11:31 AM (GsoHv)


As a chemist, I think it terms of kinetics. Mass murders are basically zeroth-order in guns (i.e., halving the number of guns would have no effect on the incidence), and so gun control is not the answer.*

Halving the number of dangerous psychotics on the street would halve the number of such incidence, and so that's where we need to focus.

(I've explained it this way. Berkeleyused to be(and probably still is) overrun with stray dogs. Leftists proposed neutering male dogs (cheaper than spaying female dogs), but doggie reproduction is zeroth order in male dogs. Unless you get almost every one, you'll make little difference in the number of puppies. Female dogs are the rate-limiting step; halve the number of fertile female dogs, and you'll halve the puppy birth rate.)

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:47 AM (4u2LN)

168 My son isn't violent, but.he screams and yells and that frightens the younger kids.

Lauren, your son may outgrow this. My bro's daughter is an aspy and had some of the SPD stuff. When she hit her early teens it started to level off to a much more manageable level. She interacts fine with her peers now. She's also very intelligent and able to understand what's going on now.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 16, 2012 11:48 AM (G0eua)

169 >Teachers are the dumbest, most immature, least in contact with reality group of adults on earth.<

You mean like Victoria Soto who died protecting those kids?

Posted by: marcus at December 16, 2012 11:48 AM (Sosux)

170
Teachers are the dumbest, most immature, least in contact with reality group of adults on earth.

=======
And tell that to Miss Soto's family and students.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 16, 2012 11:49 AM (MPjT8)

171 I know what you meant, we're cool, the point I was
making is there are thousands of levels and combinations of maladies and
children involved and parents with their own problems and psychosis.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:39 AM (3Y7RV)


This can't be stressed enough. Trying to aggregate a large group of people on a few small points on what is a giant continuum is an exercise in self deception. And guaranteed to reach the wrong conclusion.

Posted by: Captain Hate (more dagny and less curious) at December 16, 2012 11:49 AM (xrBBO)

172 I don't usually talk about this stuff because I am incredibly blessed, and I honestly hate when mothers do the "woe is me, parenting is sooooo hard" thing.

That said, having a child on the spectrum is fucking hard. Going anywhere? Prepare for massive meltdowns. Babysitters for a night out? Never going to happen. School? Unless your idea of education is having your child scream during class and spend 2 hours walking the halls with a vp, you're going to need to homeschool. Affection? ,Your child will never hug you. Ever. Conversation? Hope you like a never ending combination of yelling or mumbling.

And then there's the constant battle against the 7 million minor irritants a day that he just can not deal with. Washing his hands? Rage. Looking at the person he's speaking to? Rage. Can't find something he needs, despite not actually looking for it?Rage. Too hot? Rage.

And what answers do the experts have? Show him a social story. Avoid frustration triggers. ABA.

I reallt doubt a social story will help with the whole "don't kill kindergartners" thing.

Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:49 AM (wsGWu)

173 Absolutely. At the schools around here (Silicon Valley) there might be a single maintenance worker whom you'd trust with a gun. Or maybe an old gym teacher.
Posted by: t-bird at December 16, 2012 11:46 AM (FcR7P)




Then frankly, this issue of insane people carrying out the occasional massacre is the least of your problems. You're fucked, and utterly without hope.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 16, 2012 11:50 AM (jfeoD)

174 The CT shooting has markedly advanced the gun control side. I have several family members who normally are rock-solid on gun rights who are saying we need more restrictions. Years and years of advocacy and progress by the NRA is lost in 24 hours.

If you want gun rights then we need to think of ways to prevent tragedies like the CT shooting. Because if they keep happening at the rate of one or more a year ... public opinion will turn against gun rights. And it's only public opinion (and a few judges) holding back the tide of the ruling class who all want to take away guns.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 11:51 AM (ZPrif)

175
I reallt doubt a social story will help with the whole "don't kill kindergartners" thing.
Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:49 AM (wsGWu)


Yep.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:51 AM (3Y7RV)

176 [UNION benefits V. Students'-Interest] Teachers are [amongst] the dumbest, most immature, least in contact with reality group of adults on earth.

the "gimme" teachers /fi

Posted by: panzernashorn at December 16, 2012 11:52 AM (BAnPT)

177 When she hit her early teens it started to level off to a much more manageable level. She interacts fine with her peers now. 


That is our constant prayer and goal.

Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:53 AM (wsGWu)

178 @163 Any additional support these families can get the better.

Unfortunately, your money isn't supporting the families - it's supporting the system that tells the families the only treatment for their sick kid happens after they get arrested.

Posted by: DocJ at December 16, 2012 11:53 AM (V20sy)

179
The main chemical difference between then and now is how prevalent pharmaceutical ingestion is in most American lives, and long term (lifetime) at that. That while pharmaceutical industries advertise non-stop throughout the MFM.


It's nothing to do with pharmaceuticals; that's entering Jenny McCarthy territory.

We have more mass murders now because 1) we have nuts on the loose, 2) we have guns on the loose, and 3) we have higher population densities than back in the day, and so larger groups to shoot up. (Which is one reason why these things rarely happen in rural communities. That, and the fact that people there know who's nuts, and may well be armed themselves.)

And we have media that broadcast the details of any mass murder nation-wide, so we're more aware of them.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 11:54 AM (4u2LN)

180 That is our constant prayer and goal.
Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:53 AM (wsGWu)

Yep.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:55 AM (3Y7RV)

Posted by: nip at December 16, 2012 11:55 AM (11Tdq)

182 142 Occam's Razor

Yep. My first response was that I wish the Principal, Vice-Principal, staff had their firearms in office safes. When you hear gun shots, you can run out to "see" but without your own firearm, or at least bullet-proof shields, ...


Posted by: panzernashorn at December 16, 2012 11:57 AM (BAnPT)

183 I keep seeing people say 'Oh, you should have him locked up!' when that is exactly the problem. You simply can't show up and offload your child into some mental hospital. If you'd read the blog, you'd see that she was told as much, and that the only way these people ever get locked up is through the criminal justice system. In this case, as in many others, that does absolutely no good.

I think that's a big challenge here, that so many people (both here and others I've spoken to) believe that we've got a mental health support structure that hasn't existed for more than a generation.

My mother used to work with people like this, right when these hospitals were being shut down, and she had people that she knew were dangers to themselves and others, but they hadn't done anything yet so she couldn't do anything about them. Sometimes she was fortunate and they did something serious but not fatal, but other times the first time they did anything was when they killed a loved one and then offed themselves.

This isn't a matter of 'Oh, let's lock up Bob, he's depressed', but 'You know, this is the fifth time Bob's mother has told us he's threatened to kill himself or her, we probably need to place him under medical supervision'.

Posted by: Cataphract at December 16, 2012 11:57 AM (4Yq2b)

184 What, exactly, do you think is going to happen if they're armed? They'll
shoot the kids?


Yes. You will have stories of angry shrill teachers pulling guns on talking girls in hallways.


Do we live in a society where we let people teach our
kids who are unqualified to handle a fire arm?


Yes. Teachers are, invariably, power-crazed control freaks without the acumen to succeed in business or politics. We shouldn't let these people dogsit, let alone be near kids. Arming them is just making the problem worse.


We preach the right to
keep and bear arms for every grade-school educated redneck yokel, but
theteachers can't be trusted?


Correct. The wrong people already have authority. Now we want to arm them?


Yes - I know most of them are fucking
libs. Doesn't matter. They're the adults on the scene. They are
currently defenseless. In the inner cities they are regularly beaten and
raped by students, not just nutters from the outside.


Have police officers stationed at the school. That will take care of the problem without giving the worst of us power and weaponry.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 11:57 AM (uhAkr)

185 @Lauren - feel your pain, sister. My 15-year old son (autistic, moderately high functioning and well, let's just say he's "a big lad") landed a solid left hook on my jaw about a month ago because I committed the unforgivable sin of trying to get his shoes out of his hand and sending him to his room for "acting up" because I wouldn't let him go out.

Yeah, "reading him a social story" would have done a world of good at that point. Eh?

Posted by: DocJ at December 16, 2012 11:58 AM (V20sy)

186 Kind of ironic the mother quotes Human Rights Watch, when it is leftist groups such as it (the ACLU) which keep nuts out of hospitals.
Posted by: Baldy at December 16, 2012 10:38 AM (opS9C)
\
\
Yep!! Aging Commie Lawyers Union is a HUGE problem in this & that is why the Libtards are avoiding it like the plague & the Retards who don't know this you tell them this & they don't believe you

Posted by: Evilpens at December 16, 2012 11:58 AM (ck76k)

187 135
costs about 4 times as much to put someone in the looney bin as a prison. Anybody want to put in another entitlement ?

Posted by: occam


In this case, absolutely. Protecting the citizens from physical harm is government's first obligation. Maybe we could do without a few other things instead.

Posted by: pep at December 16, 2012 11:59 AM (6TB1Z)

188 "It's nothing to do with pharmaceuticals" ...na-na-na

Posted by: panzernashorn at December 16, 2012 11:59 AM (BAnPT)

189 The lack of agreement here mirrors the lack all over. This story will be as dead as Benghazi in 6 weeks. With any luck, no worse damage will be done in the meantime.

Posted by: SurferDoc at December 16, 2012 11:59 AM (6H6FZ)

190
wow

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 16, 2012 11:59 AM (MPjT8)

191 "Connecticut is one of only six states that do not authorize involuntary treatment in the community, often called “assisted outpatient treatment (AOT)” or “outpatient commitment.”Such laws often make it possible for people with mental illness to receive by Text-Enhance">medical care before they are so ill they require hospitalization or experience otherconsequences of non-treatment. "

There you go....our progressive legislators making things right for society.

Posted by: lamaestra at December 16, 2012 11:59 AM (aukFg)

192 @181

Talk about pithy.

Posted by: Bill O at December 16, 2012 11:59 AM (wR+pz)

193 If you want gun rights then we need to think of ways to prevent tragedies like the CT shooting.

Expose the embarrassment of lax enforcement using the government's own data.

NICS generates over 70,000 rejections a year. Many are due to error, bad data, etc, but quite a few thousand are legit...

...and less than 200/yr are prosecuted.

I did a blog post last night with some of the govt's own data. Its shameful.

http://purpleavenger.blogspot.com/2012/12/bjs-data.html

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 16, 2012 11:59 AM (G0eua)

194
Have police officers stationed at the school. That will take care of the problem without giving the worst of us power and weaponry.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 11:57 AM (uhAkr)

That's the way it is around here. Armed with bullet proof vests. School Resource Officer.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 11:59 AM (3Y7RV)

195 I have a bipolar relative who spent his early 20s in and out of psych wards. Took about 5-7 years(!) to get him on the right meds and compliant. Main problem is he'd be fine, then stop taking the meds, then be back in the hospital. Eventually he accepted he had to take it every day for the rest of his life.

But after that he lived a normal life. Decent career. Met a girl, got married, had kids. He still has the occasional mini-episode once every year or two when things get too stressful. Lasts a day or two.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 12:00 PM (ZPrif)

196 This isn't a matter of 'Oh, let's lock up Bob, he's depressed', but 'You know, this is the fifth time Bob's mother has told us he's threatened to kill himself or her, we probably need to place him under medical supervision'.Posted by: Cataphract at December 16, 2012 11:57 AM (4Yq2b)Looks like an outbreak of common sense. Well done.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 12:03 PM (4u2LN)

197 These things don't seem to happen in inner city schools in spite of housing innumerable students with a proclivity for violence. That's probably due in large part to the presence of an armed cop.

Posted by: Zippity Doo Dah at December 16, 2012 12:04 PM (E55AK)

198 193
If you want gun rights then we need to think of ways to prevent tragedies like the CT shooting.



That is simply ridiculous, and letting the MSM connect this tragdey to gun rights is also ridiculous.


There is NOTHING you could have done to stop this nut. NOTHING.


People that believe they can pass a law and stop crazy people are crazy themselves. Delousional.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at December 16, 2012 12:04 PM (wR+pz)

199 Funny thing, these same judges have no problem at all declaring somebody incompetent to stand trial or unable to understand right and wrong if they want to give a lighter sentence.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 16, 2012 12:05 PM (xSegX)

200 Have police officers stationed at the school. That will take care of the
problem without giving the worst of us power and weaponry.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 16, 2012 11:57 AM (uhAkr)


I know a cop who is a school resource officers in a mid-sized city of about 100,000.

There are about 375 cops in the department, 30 schools in the city and 3 school officers.

Where are you getting 27 extra cops to put one at every school?

Posted by: DrewM. at December 16, 2012 12:05 PM (UfvyB)

201 The thing is, I don't even know what I'd advocate to help.

Secure group homes? In patient treatment? Involuntary institutuinalization?

I don't know, but right now there's nothing but pray that your kid doesn't hurt anyone, and that's ridiculous.

Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 12:05 PM (wsGWu)

202 It may take 20 years but say hello to Euthanasia, it's the only way to be sure.



Care costs money.

Abort babies, deny oldsters care, kill the infirm.

Problem solved.

Posted by: nip at December 16, 2012 12:05 PM (11Tdq)

203 Delousional= that be people that need de lousing?

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at December 16, 2012 12:06 PM (wR+pz)

204 189 SurferDoc
The lack of agreement here mirrors the lack all over. This story will be as dead as Benghazi in 6 weeks. With any luck, no worse damage will be done in the meantime.


I wish that were true, but it's not. The totalitarians have just been handed an enormous gift, and they will take full advantage of it. I dread what's coming.

Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2012 12:06 PM (sdi6R)

205 These things don't seem to happen in inner city schools in spite of
housing innumerable students with a proclivity for violence. That's
probably due in large part to the presence of an armed cop.


Let me suggest another explanation. In those neighborhoods, the kind of aggressive behavior exhibited by the perp gets you killed in a hurry.

Posted by: pep at December 16, 2012 12:06 PM (6TB1Z)

206 Bullshit, there are things that could have been done. A head in the sand response is the delusional one.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 12:07 PM (ZPrif)

207
"It's nothing to do with pharmaceuticals" ...na-na-na


Nope. Still nothing to do with them.


This reminds me of when I was a kid, and people used to blame unusual weather on A-bomb tests. If you think pharmaceuticals are to blame, be specific: which ones, what is their effect, what is the evidence.

But vague, unsubstantiated rumblings about "pharmaceuticals?" No sale.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 12:07 PM (4u2LN)

208 Where are you getting 27 extra cops to put one at every school?
Posted by: DrewM. at December 16, 2012 12:05 PM (UfvyB)

Fire one of the three overpaid Vice principals. There is not a shortage of people wanting to join the force, there are shortages of money to the force.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 12:07 PM (3Y7RV)

209 @204

Nothing will come of it. The budget disaster will overshadow this hundred times over.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at December 16, 2012 12:07 PM (wR+pz)

210 Is YOUR child a danger to others?

Posted by: nip at December 16, 2012 12:07 PM (11Tdq)

211 What was Adams connection to the school , why did he go there days before the attack?

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 16, 2012 12:08 PM (AWmfW)

212 Lauren, DocJ, Old Sailor's Poet-

Best wishes to all of you (and others) dealing with some of these things personally.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at December 16, 2012 12:08 PM (1OZSU)

213 Right now, no my child is not a danger to anyone. 10 years from now? Who knows.

Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 12:09 PM (wsGWu)

214 Best wishes to all of you (and others) dealing with some of these things personally.
Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at December 16, 2012 12:08 PM (1OZSU)


Thanks.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 12:09 PM (3Y7RV)

215 "My neighbor yells at the TV every time our Glorious Leader is droning, errr, is soothing us. I think he's mentally ill!"

Also, "NPR: Islamophobia: A Mental Illness?"

Just girding my loins for the slippery slope.

Posted by: t-bird at December 16, 2012 12:09 PM (FcR7P)

216
These things don't seem to happen in inner city schools in spite of housing innumerable students with a proclivity for violence.


No, it happens right outside the school, if the perpsattend school at all.

Leading cause of death of black males 15-25? Homicide, by other black males.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 12:09 PM (4u2LN)

217 209 @204

Nothing will come of it. The budget disaster will overshadow this hundred times over.


Oh, I think they're capable of multitasking. Especially when it comes to depriving us of our liberty.

Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2012 12:10 PM (sdi6R)

218 Leading cause of death of black males 15-25? Homicide, by other black males.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 12:09 PM (4u2LN)

No Psychological problems in that Demo.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 12:10 PM (3Y7RV)

219
There is NOTHING you could have done to stop this nut. NOTHING.

======
Except maybe blowing his fucking head off between the house and the school.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 16, 2012 12:11 PM (MPjT8)

220 Thanks, Seamus. Despite my doom and gloom, I really do have so much hope for my son.

Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 12:11 PM (wsGWu)

221 "My Brother Ron" written by Clayton Cramer $1.99 for Kindle. This a history of the handling of the mentally ill in America. What happened, When it happened ant the major players. It is also the story of his family's struggle to help and get the right care for Ron. It defines the problem and maybe some solutions. Easy and quick to read and understand.

Posted by: Tom w at December 16, 2012 12:11 PM (sSdsd)

222 These things don't seem to happen in inner city schools in spite of
housing innumerable students with a proclivity for violence.

"Inner city schools" tend to be populated overwhelmingly by minorities.

Mass shootings are pretty much an exclusively white-male thing.

Now gang related shootings...that's a different issue.

Posted by: DrewM. at December 16, 2012 12:13 PM (UfvyB)

223 I think the greater aggression, greater density, and weaker family structure among blacks means the psycho-crazy young black male is likely to have committed an actual crime in his early teens and be involved in the criminal system already.

The Lanza kid's family had enough wealth and social distance that they could keep him isolated from other humans until his late teens.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 12:13 PM (ZPrif)

224 Where are you getting 27 extra cops to put one at every school?

Special volunteer (or minimum wage) deputies.

Palm Beach county has done something like this outside of schools for years now with the Citizen Observer Patrols. Two volunteers per PBSO provided car patrol specified areas looking for hinky shit and talking with the locals. If anything comes up, they call the cavalry. Its a popular program with retired cops and firemen.

There's a lotta mentally stable unemployed people around these days looking for something to do. If they're a parent with a kid in that school, its not a hard sell.

They don't need to be expert in all aspects of LE, just what that job requires.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 16, 2012 12:14 PM (G0eua)

225 Secure group homes? In patient treatment? Involuntary institutuinalization?



I don't know, but right now there's nothing but pray that your kid doesn't hurt anyone, and that's ridiculous.


First, let me extend my sympathy for your predicament. It must be very difficult to navigate this situation. But of the list of options you provide, I would have to say that the first two are fraught with risk. Back when they emptied the mental hospitals and opened "group homes" we were assured by the government and hordes of earnest social workers that the folks living there represented no threat. It wasn't true then, and it won't be true now.

When I was in college, they closed the adjacent mental hospital. Some of the patients were then allowed to move into my dorm, with the assurance that they were not dangerous, and would be closely monitored. Let's juist say that neither was remotely true.

Depending on the person, there simply is no alternative to isolating those with a history of violence or threatened violence. I don't say that out of a spirit of revenge or to punish them (if they are truly mentally disturbed). But in those cases, I believe it is most humane for all concerned to institutionalize them.

Posted by: pep at December 16, 2012 12:14 PM (6TB1Z)

226 I would like to learn more about his parents. What were they like? What sort of beliefs did they have? What did they teach him?

On Friday I heard that his father had been killed in NJ, but later I think I heard that was erroneous. There was so much bad reporting going around that I don't know what to believe.

Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2012 12:14 PM (sdi6R)

227 226
I would like to learn more about his parents. What were they like?
What sort of beliefs did they have? What did they teach him?



On Friday I heard that his father had been killed in NJ, but later I
think I heard that was erroneous. There was so much bad reporting
going around that I don't know what to believe.

Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2012 12:14 PM (sdi6R)

There were reports that he was in a fight some personal at the school days before the attack , why would he be there?

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 16, 2012 12:16 PM (AWmfW)

228 These mass shooters tend to be a combination of high IQ, greater impulse control, and sociopathy. Which is why they seem to be disproportionately white and asian.

Stupid psychos just attack the first person they see -- usually their family member. And do it in a way that attracts the attention of the authorities. They don't plan it out for maximum impact.

I wish all psycho killers had poor impulse control and an IQ of 85. It's the smart ones who plan things out that are the most dangerous.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 12:19 PM (ZPrif)

229
A more cynical person might note, "there sure are a lot of mass shootings under this libtard administration".

And didn't some guy shoot a classroom full of kids in Scotland a few years back?

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 16, 2012 12:22 PM (MPjT8)

230 Gonna go for a walk and watch some football. Love you guys, later.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 16, 2012 12:22 PM (3Y7RV)

231 Temper Tantrum:

That's a fine nick for commenting on this thread.

Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2012 12:23 PM (sdi6R)

232 Oh, I think they're capable of multitasking. Especially when it comes to depriving us of our liberty.

Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2012 12:10 PM (sdi6R)

We got this covered.

Posted by: Da Speaker at December 16, 2012 12:27 PM (wR+pz)

233 Hmm. But what are we to do about the Kennedys?

...if there was ever a case study to be made.

Posted by: Fritz at December 16, 2012 12:36 PM (K/NRd)

234 If you think pharmaceuticals are to blame, be specific: which ones, what is their effect, what is the evidence.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 12:07 PM (4u2LN)

_________

Hi there! SSRIs cause both suicidal ideation. It is the black box warning for the entire class. They are also reported to cause homicidal ideation. They can also produce a blunted affect in some patients and aloss of emotion, including empathy. Many of the most notorious murderers/mass murderers over the past 20 years were taking SSRIs.

Posted by: Cricket at December 16, 2012 12:37 PM (2ArJQ)

235 Church thought different.

Based on the excuses made for my mom's dog, I shudder to think what she was spouting when I was a 16 year old.

Posted by: nip at December 16, 2012 12:43 PM (11Tdq)

236 I think everyone should read the following. It's so good I would requote the whole thing if I could:

Posted by: comatus at December 16, 2012 11:00 AM (qaVK+)

This reminds me of when I first noticed Doctor Zero in the HA comments section way back when.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at December 16, 2012 12:43 PM (46pA5)

237 It sound like Adam's mother had her own issues ...

Last night it also emerged Nancy was a member of the Doomsday Preppers movement, which believes people should prepare for end of the world.

Her former sister-in-law Marsha said she had turned her home ‘into a fortress’. She added: ‘Nancy had a survivalist philosophy which is why she was stockpiling guns. She had them for defense.

‘She was stockpiling food. She grew up on a farm in New Hampshire. She was skilled with guns. We talked about preppers and preparing for the economy collapsing.’

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at December 16, 2012 12:43 PM (e8kgV)

238 "No, it happens right outside the school, if the perpsattend school at all.

Leading cause of death of black males 15-25? Homicide, by other black males."

That's kind of my point though. From an advancing gun control standpoint, most people don't give a fuck about a dirtbag getting offed in a shitty neighborhood. What they fear is a bunch of innocent children in a confined area like a classroom getting murdered. If someone having a gun - be that a cop or whatever - can deter that, then wingnuts with lawfully purchased guns can sleep better. Without solutions like that or a more vigorous mental health apparatus, law abiding people with guns can look forward to being people without guns, because that's where we're headed.

Posted by: Zippity Doo Dah at December 16, 2012 12:44 PM (E55AK)

239 Posted by Jay Guevara:

>> Many schizophrenics live quite normal lives when their meds are working.
>
> And, more importantly, they're actually taking them. Patient compliance
> is apparently a particular problem with the mentally ill.

Not necessarily. I've dealt with Schizophrenia for decades. I don't take drugs. I am at peace with my subconcious, and have gotten it to stop trying to inflict delusional crap on my to get what it wants. This involved a lot of meditation, and a lot of hard work on my part. And yes, I am an exception.

What need to be evaluated is behavior. Drugs are simply a tool to enable acceptable behavior. If a person cannot prevent themselves from violently acting out on innocent bystanders, then that person needs to be locked up.

Insanity as a defense needs to go away.

Society should not care what a person's excuse is for initiating uncalled for violence. That person should still go to prison, and any parole needs to be closely supervised ... if meds are needed, the parolee should be periodically tested to ensure he is taking them.

Posted by: Kristophr at December 16, 2012 12:47 PM (wYVte)

240
SSRIs cause both suicidal ideation. It is the black box warning for the entire class. They are also reported to cause homicidal ideation.
Many of the most notorious murderers/mass murderers over the past 20 years were taking SSRIs.


Can cause; not the same thing.

That murderers were taking SSRIs can obviously result from recognition that they were in need of psychiatric help, i.e., can easily be explained by selection bias.

Furthermore, the original comment implied that psychotic behavior resulted from prior exposure to pharmaceuticals. Of course psycho-active drugs can affect brain chemistry; that's the whole idea. But such drugs are only prescribed for those considered to have problems with brain chemistry in the first place.

And what about all the pharmaceuticals - the vast majority - that don't even cross the blood brain barrier?

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 16, 2012 12:49 PM (4u2LN)

241 I have to say this is one of the most incredible threads I have read on this site in my three years lurking here. Wish I could verbalize the troubles of my youngest brother to share, but they are way too complicated. Thank you to everyone who shared their personal stories and possible solutions. Now turning the snark on for the elbow post.

Posted by: JimboHoffa awestruck and thoughtful at December 16, 2012 12:50 PM (dAfqy)

242 "With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail, and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011". So the "treatment centers' were not shuttered, they are just part of the correctional complex. You either have the kid confined or not, lady. Calling it a prison is simply semantics. It's a treatment center for the mentally ill, they are confined. If you pull a knife on someone and threaten to kill them and are not mentally ill, you'll go to prison. If you do the same and are mentally ill, you go to the prison for the mentally ill. The only difference is that one needs psychitrists and one doesn't. So stop with the crap, lady. The only issue here is that you don't want your son confined. You're the problem here, not "the system".

Posted by: Landru at December 16, 2012 12:54 PM (gaP+R)

243 I have a relative in prison right now who was convicted of first degree murder. He maintains his innocence to this day, and I am convinced the man that I know did not do this. But on the night of the murder, he was very sick. He has documented mental illness (PTSD, anxiety, depression). He does not know what happened that night. He did not want to pursue an insanity or diminished capacity defense. I have to concede that it is possible his hands pulled the trigger, even if *he* did not.

But now, he is not taking drugs, prescription or otherwise, for his documented illness. He seems healthier than he has been in years. Despite his frustration about being in prison he seems actually happy, and enjoying his service as a chaplain's assistant.

The drugs never did all that much good, but the walls do. When we thought there was a chance he would be acquitted, we worried what would become of him. Now, we feel guilty because he was convicted, *and is healthier for it*.

Now make no mistake. I wish he had been able to get the help he needed before a man died. Of course. And part of that solution would have required involuntary commitment. But it would also have required more knowledge about treating mental illness than we have. If you talk to psychiatrists studying PTSD and other mental illness, you hear they're a good century or more behind compared to our knowledge of physical illness. Or maybe, more charitably, mental illness is as much of a challenge as cancer, which we haven't licked yet.

So what that leaves is not just involuntary commitment but quite possibly permanent commitment. And that's exactly what my relative gets in prison.

Posted by: mcg at December 16, 2012 12:54 PM (O176w)

244 The Political Hat: Mass murderers tend to be male because men tend to act, and women tend to network.

Women get schizophrenic as much as men, IMO ... they just have a better toolkit for coping with it. If worse comes to worse a female schizophrenic can buy a lot of forgiveness for crazy ass behavior and an inability to support herself by simply providing sex to someone who is unpicky enough to put up with it.

Men don't generally have that option. They just go full retard, and they don't have anyone there to yank them out of it. if a guy goes off the deep end while married, the woman will usually try to GTFO ( and I wouldn't blame her ).

Add being taught to fix problems ... and the delusions become a problem to fix. Often violently.

Posted by: Kristophr at December 16, 2012 12:55 PM (wYVte)

245 My brother was like that. He'd fly into fits of rage and scared the hell out of me and our mom. The difference is that I eventually called the cops on him. Thankfully he was doing something else that was illegal. He ended up going to therapy where he didn't mention his violent outbursts. Then he was arrested and hauled into federal court. He went back to therapy and is now serving 6 years in federal prison.

Seriously, if I hadn't seen him committing another crime then he would've ended up killing someone.

Posted by: FPW at December 16, 2012 12:56 PM (BDNF5)

246 237 Islamic Rage Boy
Her former sister-in-law Marsha said she had turned her home ‘into a fortress’. She added: ‘Nancy had a survivalist philosophy which is why she was stockpiling guns. She had them for defense.

‘She was stockpiling food. She grew up on a farm in New Hampshire. She was skilled with guns. We talked about preppers and preparing for the economy collapsing.’


Because preparing for self-defense and economic collapse is just crazy.

Gun owners and preppers.

This is a fucking perfect storm for the Left.

Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2012 12:56 PM (sdi6R)

247 Ok, let's assume she's perfectly knowledgeable and objective in holding her child unstable and untreated; what she wants is the power to commit him so he can be properly diagnosed and treated, avoiding the un-medicated prison outcome, or self-medicated homeless outcome. She is, after all, the person who knows him best.

If she's wrong, they'll quickly release him and take a close look at her fitness as a parent. If she's right, he gets the treatment he needs so he doesn't have to suffer further.

So why is it so hard for a parent to commit their child?

Liberals have been so busy undermining and deconstructing every longstanding social structure, and gluttonously feeding on the public fisc / creating unneeded new entitlements, so that now we suffer under due process based limits that threaten everyone's safety, while the state is so lacking in funds that the people who really need help can't get it (and the state is perversely aligned in interest with the deluded liberals who think One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is a documentary in seeking to deny treatment). Oh well, at least we have green investments like Solyndra.

But now we're supposed to accept that stricter gun control and hatred of Reagan will solve this.

Progressivism is the most destructive mental disorder. Every problem we have as a society can be laid at the feet of these deluded naive fools who never learn from their mistakes and always blame nefarious forces or an insufficient spending commitment for the inevitable failure of what they demand.

It has reached a point where the damage done now includes 20 dead kindergarden children and countless other ill people left to die in prison or on the streets just because some liberal d-bag wants to proclaim how progressive, compassionate and superior he is....

Posted by: Reality at December 16, 2012 12:57 PM (bT79U)

248 When I say we feel guilty, BTW, it's because part of us is glad he's in prison. That seems like a horrible thing to think about someone you care about. But I do not know if he could remain healthy outside of prison.

Posted by: mcg at December 16, 2012 12:57 PM (O176w)

249 I had a dyslexic son who attended a school to help w specific LANGUAGE disability. A boy was moved into the class who clearly had much more wrong than writing backward. All the parents were told that it would be better for HIM to be "mainstreamed". Never mind what he did to our children. Did I mention he was the son (or grandson) of a prominent liberal politician? I'm sure this messed up priorities goes in all over - we need to get real about dangerous ppl.

Posted by: Connie at December 16, 2012 12:58 PM (Iy915)

250 Mental illness is not new in the United States. Boys are not new in the United States. Guns are not new in the United States. What is new is the wanton disregard for human life, which hides under the "pro choice" euphemism. Since "mentally healthy" Americans can regard mass murder as exercising "women's rights", why are you shocked that this attitude influences those who decide that schoolchildren really aren't human beings?

Posted by: Gerry at December 16, 2012 12:58 PM (iQUb7)

251 I do have direct and continuing experience with special needs students as well as a spouse who is bipolar. From what little I know of this story I will add my two cents. The mother of the killer made a bad decision to have guns in her house at all. She had a moral and legal responsibility to keep her guns locked up in a gun safe that had a combination lock and key. After the first time my wife received court ordered medical treatment (Probated) we received a letter in the mail from the court which legally and permanently revoked her right to own firearms. As such, we do not have any guns in the house. Regarding medical treatment of her son, in Michigan there are many special programs which would have assisted. I do not have direct knowledge of programs in her state but it would seem that there would have been a mental health advocate which could direct her to programs. In Michigan an important step is to obtain an I.E.P. for special needs students. http://1.usa.gov/er5HV5 Since the mother of the killer was a teacher she should have known about this or at least made an inquiry. Once a student is in this program they can receive help until they are age 26. After that they hopefully have had enough help to function on their own in society. If not, it behooves the surviving parent(s) and/or immediate family to seek legal guardianship to gain direct and full legal control of medical treatments. For the people who say forced treatment is impossible, I disagree. I have had to Probate my wife many times over the past 27 years. When the police or hospital asks you if the person needing treatment is an immediate threat to themselves or others you need to know what to say to trigger Probated treatment.

Posted by: sirsurfalot at December 16, 2012 01:04 PM (Q2Ne0)

252 So the "treatment centers' were not shuttered, they are just part of
the correctional complex. You either have the kid confined or not, lady.
Calling it a prison is simply semantics.
Posted by: Landru at December 16, 2012 12:54 PM (gaP+R)

It's not semantics. They are two very different types of institutions, with two very different types of missions and personnel.

I'm not condoning this woman's choice not to have her son committed (if it's a financial option) but don't pretend a prison is a mental health facility. Far, far from it.

Posted by: DrewM. at December 16, 2012 01:05 PM (UfvyB)

253 Psych meds don't cause psychopathy anymore than insulin injections causes diabetes or umbrellas cause rain.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 01:05 PM (ZPrif)

254 Should Abraham Lincoln have been locked up before he was elected to Congress or when he became a candidate for President?

Posted by: Gerry at December 16, 2012 01:07 PM (iQUb7)

255 If we can not remove these people from society, either through incarceration under medical supervision, or chemically disabling their hostility, then we are permitting them to dictate to us the type of society in which we live. I'm not willing to let them have that power.

A careful analysis of cost/benefit of arming every school, every movie theater, every mall, every place where people gather must be made vs incarceration/chemically disablement. The trend line is obvious. What we do now is not working.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at December 16, 2012 01:08 PM (feFL6)

256 Nobody is saying lock everybody up who's ever been treated for depression or anxiety.

We can make distinctions. There are gradations of mental illness.

We hospitalize people with tuberculosis, but don't hospitalize everybody who's ever had a cough. We don't say everybody who's ever had a "lung disease" has to be quarantined. We aren't idiots.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 01:11 PM (ZPrif)

257
Gerry: Should Abraham Lincoln have been locked up before he was elected to Congress or when he became a candidate for President?



Lincoln functioned well. His wife, on the other hand, was completely fruitlooped, and should have been committed.

Posted by: Kristophr at December 16, 2012 01:12 PM (wYVte)

258 I don't know if this comment will see the light of day over there, it's kind of hard to figure out the comment format, but this is what I said to some drooling idiot who had posted the "Oh, it's all because Reagan closed mental hospitals to save money!" lie:

You know what I wish for you Terrel? I wish you were in the shoes of the person who wrote this heartbreaking post. You and your fellow libtards have created this situation with your insane pseudo "concern" for the "rights" of people who are mentally ill, making it impossible to confine people who need it for humane treatment. Then when the predictable results occur,and 20 6 and 7 year olds lie dead in their own blood because of you, you wring your hands and slander a political opponent, you cry for law abiding people to be disarmed and left unprotected, you generally do anything except admit your culpability in the whole mess. "It's their fault, not mine!" you shriek, because of course your MOTIVES were pure, your COMPASSION was evident, so naturally the results aren't your fault. No, you and your ilk never accept responsibility for the outcome of your insane policies for the simple reason that you don't care. It's all about making you feel better about yourself, allowing you puff to out your chest and demonstrate your BENEVOLENCE, your GRACE, your oh-so perfect HUMANITY, and I'm sick of it. Fuck you and all of your fellow travelers. Fuck you all to death. I'd give anything for this to be a truly just world where it was YOU who had to deal with heartbreak of having children who desperately need help, but none is available because 40 years ago idiots like you gutted the mental health system just so that they could congratulate themselves on just how CARING they were. Sadly, you get to sail on through life, secure in your smug, self congratulatory bubble while good people like the OP go through hell on earth, and when the subject comes up, you just look down your nose, sniff, and repeat a lie (which you may actually believe. People like you are too mouthbreathingly stupid to bother to find out the truth behind the shibboleths that allow you to live with yourself)"Oh, it's Reagan's fault". It's a twofur: Absolve you of your glaringly obvious guilt, and slander someone who had the gall to point out that your chosen political philosophy is morally bankrupt. I'm sick to death of it and I'd give anything to live in a just world where it was only you fuckers who suffered for your idiocy, not the rest of us.

I'm sick to death of "progressivism". I just want to live in a world that makes sense.

Posted by: Weirddave at December 16, 2012 01:17 PM (aH+zP)

259 However many are in prison - it ain't enough.

Posted by: george at December 16, 2012 01:20 PM (qBLA2)

260 Collectivism is a viral mental illness.

Posted by: Fritz at December 16, 2012 01:26 PM (K/NRd)

261 All this breezy talk about just "putting people into institutions" and "checking them into a mental facility". Where are all these number-no-object "facilities" you all keep talking about? Where's the local "pound" in YOUR town for unsatisfactory humans? You must know; it's got to be a pretty big place if it has room for all the homeless, beggars, and seething psychos jostling us on the streets. And I assume it's empty right now, because none of those people are in it. The truth is, there are very few facilities available, and what there are have limited room. You can't just drive up and drop off a surly kid in a black trenchcoat - like any sort of place with limited space, the care is rationed, and the worst cases are the ones in there. That means the ones who already have committed crimes. This is why the mother in the excerpt above was told to get her son arrested. Until he DOES something, nothing will happen. It's a delicate process, watching alertly for danger signs and trying to intervene at the precise moment when a crime occurs, hopefully before anyone else gets hurt. The advice was right, but she was scared because it's risky. Once her son is arrested, the whole matter is out of her hands. How can she be sure he'll go to a mental facility instead of a straight-out penitentiary? There's no way to know.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at December 16, 2012 01:41 PM (FkH4y)

262 Where are all these number-no-object "facilities" you all keep talking about?

What's your point? They're gone. They were closed in the 70s. They can be rebuilt if we as a society decide they should be.

Posted by: pep at December 16, 2012 01:46 PM (6TB1Z)

263 I'm tired of sacrificing freedom because left-wingers are pussies. When I go home to the town I grew up in, I find it kind of sad and pathetic how there are no children out on the street. That has nothing to do with these occasional lunatic outbursts like the recent shooting, but it's obviously akin to it in the sense that culture is evolving so as to let deranged individuals roam the streets. Enough, I say. I'm glad that I had the good fortune to not be a mental defective, but fuck perverts and psychopaths. Put them all in funny farms. One strike, and good fucking riddance.

Posted by: Zippity Doo Dah at December 16, 2012 01:48 PM (E55AK)

264 At some point, there will be a major die-off that solves a lot of societal ills. I'm not wishing for it, but it's coming.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 16, 2012 01:52 PM (QupBk)

265
"What's your point? They're gone. They were closed in the 70s. They can be rebuilt if we as a society decide they should be."

That IS the point. Everyone's barking advice at this woman that is entirely unconnected to the real world. She can't just commit her son - there's no place for him to go. Everyone can see the problem, but the solution to it doesn't exist in the worldas it is today.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at December 16, 2012 01:53 PM (FkH4y)

266 Checkout these pics from AT.
Brings to mind the Trayvon Martin photos.

The second shot leaves no doubt.

http://tinyurl.com/bn9k3an

Posted by: ontherocks at December 16, 2012 01:59 PM (aZ6ew)

267 Surprising that Anarchist Soccer Mom seems to get no help from the boy's father.



Oh never mind.

Posted by: jeanne at December 16, 2012 02:11 PM (wJSi0)

268 This might sound weird, but I believe that this come out from not having a father who will kick your ass. Many years ago I was being disrespectful to my mother and my father closed fist knocked my ass through the air hard enough to bounce off the wall, i did not have a black eye i had a black left face. I have never swore/disrespected my mother from that point on. I think young men (well some of them) get that surge of hormones and need that older male willing to smack'em down to bring em back to reality. Just like the juvenile elephants in a Africa refuge that were killing rhinos for kicks, was solved by bringing in a old bull who would kick there ass when they felt the aggression/must kick in, until they wised up and matured.

Posted by: ric at December 16, 2012 02:13 PM (tAFW3)

269 In the USSR dissenters filled the mental institutions. After all, if you weren't down with the whole socialist program, obviously you were crazy.

But, that couldn't happen here, right?

Posted by: navybrat at December 16, 2012 02:15 PM (wo54F)

270
Libs will belligerently argue against forcibly medicating the mentally ill. They deny the reality of the link between Aspberger's and violence, they candycoat it with other terms that hide what it is. Google Aspbergers and rage, explosive behavior, or their favorite euphemism "vapor lock". Violent aspies need to be locked up or forcibly given depot injections.
They also prevent people from refusing meds "they choose what gets put into their bodies". The victims of these murderers get bodies full of bullets to avoid bodies full of haldol. Sick

Posted by: CB at December 16, 2012 02:16 PM (4oEbR)

271 In the USSR dissenters filled the mental
institutions. After all, if you weren't down with the whole socialist
program, obviously you were crazy.

But, that couldn't happen here, right?


Posted by: navybrat


Who said it couldn't? We're conservatives and constitutionalists for a reason. Stop molesting straw men.

Posted by: pep at December 16, 2012 02:17 PM (6TB1Z)

272 No, people aren't barking orders at the mom. They are thinking of things we can do moving forward. Like maybe build some more psych wards.

Or making sure it's more publicly known that you shouldn't have guns in your house if you have an emotionally disturbed teen.

NRA is very good on gun safety. That could be part of their messaging.

And in most states you already can be involuntarily committed. So if we are terrified of the State abusing that authority -- they already have that authority.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 02:23 PM (ZPrif)

273 Last time I looked the "conservatives and constitutionalists" were not in charge of much more than a few blogs.

Posted by: navybrat at December 16, 2012 02:24 PM (wo54F)

274 I got a GF's nephew that saw a running parked car, hopped in and drove it home to where his parents lived (yes, he lived with his parents at 20+). There was a teenage girl in the jump seat. When he got home he took her inside and told her to stay put and then drove off. When he got back in a while the cops were waiting...the girl had used the house phone.
The girls Dad is a local prison warden. woopsie.
He got 12...every day of them. Count them off. That little escapade costs the Greecefornia taxpayers $600000+. The shit was a known troublemaker and the system was nonresponsive...unemployed, shiftless, unempathetic, dangerous and a ticking time bomb. He's out in 6. Lock your doors.

Posted by: torabora at December 16, 2012 02:27 PM (I+Z9T)

275 I think we need to start pointing the finger where it squarely belongs: the courts and the "disability rights" litigators who have made it nearly impossible to institutionalize people who are a threat to American society. Looking beyond the Reagan years when all this started, I see a couple recent Supreme Court cases that have kept dangerous people free in our communities: Zadvydas (criminal illegal aliens) and the recent Olmstead v. L.C. decision.

Posted by: Manolo at December 16, 2012 02:28 PM (PttbO)

276 273: I think you forgot about the House of Representatives and the majority of the nation's governorships.

Posted by: Manolo at December 16, 2012 02:30 PM (PttbO)

277 "Last time I looked the "conservatives and constitutionalists" were not in charge of much more than a few blogs".
Have you read about "Right to Work" in Michigan? The Progressives would tend to disagree with you.

Posted by: sirsurfalot at December 16, 2012 02:30 PM (Q2Ne0)

278 Institutionalization is a nasty concept, but in cases like these, it's a necessity. I speak from personal experience here.

When I was fourteen, I walked into the freshman lunchroom and realized that if I didn't get out, I'd have to kill everyone in there. It was a cold sort of thought, but it made sense to me at that moment: they were wrong, they were disgusting, they needed to go. I backed out of there and went straight to the counselor, who said "I don't think I'm qualified to deal with this."

Long story short, it turned out there was a mental-illness spider lurking in the genetic woodpile, and I went into a closed-ward hospital for a while. Then began the battery of medication, counseling, and constant worry. For three or four years I was an absolute nightmare to my parents, my friends, and everyone around me. I injured family members and wavered between wanting to kill myself and kill everyone around me. Rough patch.

I honestly wanted to get better, and I had a stable family that wanted to help me do it. That saved my bacon. For kids like Michael and the school shooters, who are actually worse than I ever was and are often in families that either shield them from treatment or have no place to put them except jail, it's guaranteed not to end well.

My first instinct with anything is to reject increased governmental interference, but I do believe that making institutionalization a more readily available option can only help prevent cases like this. I know for a fact that if my family hadn't been as resilient, or my case a little worse, I'd rather have gone into an institution than risk hurting any more than I already did.

Pardon the TL;DR. I'll be quiet now.

Posted by: Rosa E. at December 16, 2012 02:33 PM (IKVkI)

279 For those who are blaming the mom--it is truly incredibly difficult to have someone institutionalized in this day and age. For an adolescent, it is pretty much impossible to find even a hospitalization program for 2-3 months--adolescent hospital plans are always "crisis management" with a 2-3week maximum. I say this after years of dealing with related issues with two of my children, who are, thank God, not violent. One has very serious developmental disabilities, and one had a nervous breakdown which requires slow, intensive treatment. We have a comfortable income, one of the best disabilities lawyers in our state, and live just outside of NYC, which has several superb teaching/research center hospitals. We were lucky enough to fine what our kids needed (the child with the breakdown is in a tiny outpatient program tied to a research project) , but we had resources that a lot of people don't. It took us years to get help for both of these kids. I know of families whose kids are violent, who have to depend on the government, and who can't get any help because things aren't "bad enough". Our lawyer told us that he has had clients who struggled with adult children who were no longer managable, and who finally had to resort to abandoning their children at hospital emergency rooms, so that they would become a ward of the state--there was simply no other way to do it. The social workers who deal with these kids are often pathologically optimistic about their futures--the problem isn't the difficult child, it's the parents who can no longer adapt their lives to the child's behavior. They aren't allowed to consider the effect the disturbed child is having on other children in the family, when deciding about residential care. The system is insane.

Posted by: Burke at December 16, 2012 02:33 PM (CrqI6)

280 Republicans are not necessarily conservatives, as we on this blog have despaired daily.

Posted by: navybrat at December 16, 2012 02:35 PM (wo54F)

281 273
Last time I looked the "conservatives and constitutionalists" were not in charge of much more than a few blogs.


And yet here you are, addressing comments like this to those on this blog.

But, that couldn't happen here, right? Posted by: navybrat


Posted by: pep at December 16, 2012 02:46 PM (6TB1Z)

282 Here, in the USA.

Posted by: navybrat at December 16, 2012 02:55 PM (wo54F)

283 Even Drew M. opens his thread with the phrase "there was a political component..." for mental incarceration.

It is possible I know what I am talking about.

Posted by: navybrat at December 16, 2012 02:57 PM (wo54F)

284 It still scares me. Aspergers is more than just "awkward".

Posted by: Lauren at December 16, 2012 11:21 AM (wsGWu)
Lauren - I want you to know that I am truly sorry for the difficulties and heartbreak you go thru w/ your child. That said, please don't paint all Aspies with the same broad brush. They aren't all "your" child. Many AS children/adults are able to cope with their stresses without "raging". My son has never had an outburst or screaming problem. Really the opposite, he's always been very quite/contemplative in stressful situations and finds a quiet place. His teachers biggest complaint is that he's too quiet and not reactionary enough - especially to the bullies. One of the biggest dangers in all of this is a misconception being formed about autism and Aperger's. I cannot for one second suggest to understand what you go thru. Your son is somewhere my son has never been. But I beg of you, before you lead others who have no idea to be very clear that you are only speaking about what you go thru and your child. The worst harm any of us could do is mislead others into thinking something that just isn't the case. Each and everyone of these children/adults is as individualistic in their symptoms as you and I are in our personalities.

Posted by: AS Mom at December 16, 2012 02:59 PM (9QPl/)

285 Just watched FoxNews Sunday.
Pretty they were all calling for increased gun control. Nobody said no. Brit Hume said we need more information.
Chris Wallace repeatedly referred to semi-autos as Weapons of Mass Destruction.
That's where the media is. Even FoxNews is using left-wing gun-banning talking points.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 16, 2012 02:59 PM (ZPrif)

286 268
"This might sound weird, but I believe that this come out from not having a father who will kick your ass"

Not weird at all, just a tad against the zeitgeist.

Posted by: jeanne at December 16, 2012 03:03 PM (wJSi0)

287 Rich societies can pay for things like this. Unfortunately, some people have put a lot of energy into making sure we're not one of them, because fairness.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's mobile at December 16, 2012 03:09 PM (5qkWa)

288 Joe, Fox news is not as different from others as you seem to think. They will cover some topics NBC refuses too, but ultimately they come from the same j-schools and local newsrooms, the same culture.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's mobile at December 16, 2012 03:15 PM (5qkWa)

289 Even Drew M. opens his thread with the phrase "there was a political component..." for mental incarceration.

It is possible I know what I am talking about.
Posted by: navybrat at December 16, 2012 02:57 PM (wo54F)

Huh? Where did I say that?

Posted by: DrewM. at December 16, 2012 03:22 PM (UfvyB)

290 Anybody here mention demons? Cause that's what I think is going on. I know that's not too cool to believe but when I read about many of these horrors, it seems the perpetrator is into goth or drugs or weird stuff. There are a lot of people with mental illnesses who never do anything like this kid did. It's too dark for normal human depravity.

Posted by: MaxMBJ at December 16, 2012 03:25 PM (lOlyY)

291 Has anyone looked at how many of these mass shooters are fatherless? There seems to be a good number of them. Just because we don't understand the connection doesn't mean we shouldn't look at it.

Or I could be way off.

Posted by: JohnJ at December 16, 2012 04:10 PM (Tt6ky)

292 I'm not one to see the devil behind every corner, but yes, Jesus did speak of the accuser and the "Father of Lies". The father of lies wants to kill and destroy and so when you get a cobination of really bad factors of work the devil is often at work as well, IMO.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 16, 2012 04:56 PM (v8RoL)

293 Go maybe 5 comments down on the article to see what else is at fault here.

If you guessed RAAAAAACISM, you win the internez.

Posted by: Filly at December 16, 2012 05:00 PM (/Mvc7)

294 I am just suspecting that my son may have Asbergers. He has many of the symptoms I haven't done the testing, but I agree with you AS mom. My son doesn't have tantrums. He ocasionally raises his voice, but I know almost 13 olds who do the same without AS. The maddest he got was when he briefly kicked the buttom of some windows (the wooden part) and rattled them because he was upset about Romney's loss.

I fear lots of people will start think ing all kids with AS are violent. I know many who aren't and who are more like your son

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 16, 2012 05:02 PM (v8RoL)

295 Has anyone looked at how many of these mass shooters are fatherless? There seems to be a good number of them. Just because we don't understand the connection doesn't mean we shouldn't look at it.

Or I could be way off.
Posted by: JohnJ at December 16, 2012 04:10 PM (Tt6ky)

----

Eh, I don't think it really connects to mass shooters in particular. Fatherless children are way more likely to commit other crimes, but not this one, I don't think. Adam Lanza was not fatherless---his parents didn't divorce until he was 17 and at least one article touts Peter Lanza as a very involved father before and after that. Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Jared Loughner, James Holmes and the Virginia Tech shooter all lived with their married-to-each-other biological parents throughout their entire childhoods. I think the really young kids who did the school shooting in Arkansas were fatherless or had divorced parents, and I think the kid who shot up his school in California, too...but I do think most of these people had fathers.

I think a lot of it is just insanity and evil---more like demons getting through to especially sick, vulnerable people than humans being evil to the core (though sometimes I wonder about Eric Harris in particular). It's not quite the same thing but I remember listening to someone talk to Andrea Yates after they medicated her and she realized what she had done and I just thought "if any being wanted to torment this pitiful human being and her husband, inspire intense hatred of evangelical Christians and pre-born children and families, encourage abortion and end five innocent lives to boot, this would be the devil's best way to do it".

Posted by: Jenny Tries Too Hard at December 16, 2012 05:20 PM (b+8h9)

296 Thank you for posting this letter. I have been following the horror from the sidelines, as, after the horrible year I have had since October 2011, I am determined to practice Advent. I pray for those involved in this tragedy. Here are a few thoughts:

1) Eliminate automatic weapons---aka, stop selling them, as they are already out there. Stop selling more.2) Eliminate video games "shooting" people for sport, please note several mass murderers were obsessed with these games as well as being counter-culture goths or whatever.
3) Eliminate Hollywood's obsession with violent movies4)
Eliminate ACLU's obsession with the protection of mentally ill and
violent people who need to be institutionalized...with six states,
including Connecticut, who do not even have the basic Baker Act
(Florida) for the three day involuntary psych exam.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, raving lunatic about Benghazi at December 16, 2012 05:20 PM (baL2B)

297 In addition to four eliminations above....eliminate 24 hours of news about murdering coward who chooses this way to commit suicide. Hold networks and print media to not posting a photo of murdering coward for his days of fame. Post names of victims and photos only. Devote 24 hours, once truth is known and not speculation, of story.

I really think many, including the current copy-cat shooters in malls, just want their fame. They do not care how they achieve it or if they are dead.

In the past, prior to 24 hour news, you read about these horrors in the newspaper or saw it on the 6pm news. Now it is around the clock for days.

Can't the experts figure out that this is more than guns? It is insanity, which we allow to keep their "civil liberties"....what about the civil liberties of those young kids? It is about violent video games for the insane and/or the kids who have this imprinted into their brains and lives. It is about the violent Hollywood culture, who "postpone" violent movies immediately after massacres, then release them, feeding on the fascination of killing. And, it IS about the 24 hour news and fame.

Evil has always walked this earth...we just did not have constant awareness, or for some, the desire to mimic the details.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, raving lunatic about Benghazi at December 16, 2012 05:53 PM (baL2B)

298 Maybe I can be the last comment in this thread. I have a family member who has taught in an elementary school for the past thirty plus years. It has only been in the last ten years that she has suffered any abuse at the hands of children. But it is a trend that is increasing, not decreasing. Although she has dual degrees in early education and psychology she is un-equipped for what is going on. Sure, she has behavior modification methods that occasionally work for short periods of time. It cost us about 60,000 dollars of education to turn her into a punching bag -- but one who can diagnose a child's disorder. Thanks.

I have also seen her when she gets out of the shower and both of her legs are covered with bruises from a child kicking her repeatedly when he doesn't receive his way -- and it is a 100% male, not female issue. She has been punched, kicked, and subjected to unfathomable abuse at the hands of students barely six or seven in age. Which she has reported to the administration, which has caused parent/teacher/administration/Psychiatrist/school counselor meetings which have not stopped, or even slowed the violence of these individuals. I have told her in the past that if she came to school with those sort of bruises and someone suspected her husband, that *I* would be in jail, or answering very pointed questions. But because of television programs like 'Parenthood' who try to brainwash the population about the Asperger/Autism (A/A) 'community' being harmless individuals with little threat of violence there can be little action. Because under liberal psychology they are victims, not abusers. I say bullshit.

If someone says to me 'paranoid schizophrenic' I recognize the risk, as most people would. It's time that this 'community' of A/A individuals come under much more scrutiny. As a parent you should reject attempts to mainstream them into your child's classroom or accept the depiction of them in the media. Something is terribly wrong with them. Yes, not every one. But enough of a percentage that the threat they represent to society must be reexamined. By teachers. By administrators. By Mental Health professionals. By school counselors. Whatever treatment methods are being used, they are an abject failure.

Eventually the last abuser of my wife went off to another 'special' school. Hopefully to never return, to find someone else to turn his rage upon. Unless, tomorrow he returns to her classroom in some illogical fit of explosive anger and decides to turn it into a killing zone. I no longer consider that as a paranoid fleeting thought.

Posted by: Regular Moron at December 16, 2012 05:56 PM (feFL6)

299 250 Mental illness is not new in the United States. Boys are not new in the United States. Guns are not new in the United States. What is new is the wanton disregard for human life, which hides under the "pro choice" euphemism. Since "mentally healthy" Americans can regard mass murder as exercising "women's rights", why are you shocked that this attitude influences those who decide that schoolchildren really aren't human beings?
Posted by: Gerry at December 16, 2012 12:58 PM (iQUb7)

AMEN!

Posted by: Jumbo Shrimp at December 16, 2012 06:05 PM (DGIjM)

300 Abelow, MD said it best. Social Workers, School Psychologists have no power to act when they can clearly see potential for danger. Everything is handed off and then, even when taken for help, there is none to be had. Not only that, but health insurance won't cover people who need mental health healing. I know. I have a mentally ill s-i-l. I took her to the ER for help. She knows the right things to say to the questions asked and they release her. Getting her committed requires going to the courthouse and the magistrate signs papers. So, we can either teach all of them how to assess and handle the difficulty or at least prepare--or, psychiatrists must be hired in schools and be able to refer them somewhere for effective treatment, if it's available.

Posted by: DefendUSA at December 16, 2012 06:22 PM (nAHMK)

301 I'm a parent of an autistic child. Other people have no fucking clue. That's all.

Posted by: autism parent at December 16, 2012 06:33 PM (VCCXE)

302 ...psychiatrists must be hired in schools and be able to refer them somewhere for effective treatment, if it's available.

In my wife's school she has a full 'prescription pad' available psychiatrist. Who sat in on meetings with the parents of my wife's abuser, along with the parents, along with the parents paid psychologist, the school principal, and my wife. The school psychiatrist was worse then useless. Nothing was done. The child continued to beat on my wife, day after day.

You know what it's going to take? A massive lawsuit against the parents, the school administration, the mental health 'professionals' -- by about twenty grieving parents -- a lawsuit numbering in the hundreds of millions of dollars that takes away the homes, practices, automobiles, and worldly possessions from these individuals. Because they all are burrowing their heads in the sand and ignoring the obvious in the interest of political expediency and they have the MSM providing cover. Some of these A/A individuals are angry at the world and don't consider revenge, no matter how heinous we consider it, as payback for the world they live in. That has to stop.

We can't ask sick individuals to stop. But asking the paid professionals who keep them in the schools, in your child's classroom, familiar with the layout of your child's school, ready, willing, and able to perform any insanity to reveal their rage at the world and take them away from society is a goal that needs to be spread. If it takes a paid professional to live in a single wide in a trailer park with a closet filled with rejects from Goodwill to accomplish that task, then so be it.

Posted by: Regular Moron at December 16, 2012 06:44 PM (feFL6)

303 From another family member in the teaching profession...

''I was going to write something similar about the child with "ODD" a 4 yr old who choked me to the ground as other teachers jumped in and pulled him off me. When I told his mother "I no longer wanted to be her son's teacher" she called me all matter of awful names, but I am sorry, someone really needed to deal with this child better than I could and I was honestly scared for the other children in my care.

I hate that we "mainstream" disturbed children who have no business being in a classroom of "regular" children.

I keep this opinions between you and me and a few close people who I know feel the same, others think we are cruel or have no compassion. In the good olde days these types of things rarely happened, what were we doing right then? Maybe people need to think about that.''

Posted by: Regular Moron at December 16, 2012 06:50 PM (feFL6)

304 What do you think they were doing right then?

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 16, 2012 06:57 PM (v8RoL)

305 I am raising my grandson--he is 14 and has Asperger's. He is not violent and never has been except once. When the doctor insisted that he should have Ritalin. In one hour, I saw a sweet-natured boy turn into a monster. His eyes glowed hate and he walked through the house hitting the walls and throwing things. He was 6. I was strong enough to hold him and continue to hold him until it wore off until he fell asleep. I have NEVER let him near any meds again--and he has never behaved that way since. I tell you that it is irresponsible prescribing of drugs that is also at the bottom of these issues, too. Incompetent doctors, ignorant parents (and me at the time), dose children with powerful psychotropic drugs that CLEARLY have dangerous side effects. God help us with the autism epidemic in this country--those children and society are at risk because of this ignorance of chemistry and the autistic's brain.

Posted by: scotsfury at December 16, 2012 07:02 PM (W08yv)

306 What do you think they were doing right then?

Maybe you could re-read the second paragraph?

Posted by: Regular Moron at December 16, 2012 07:02 PM (feFL6)

307 That mother that wrote "I am Adam Lanza's mother" should be ashamed that she allows her other children to be at such risk. Would you let your child go to the same school with such a child IF YOU KNEW? The privacy laws do not protect us--they endanger us.

Posted by: scotsfury at December 16, 2012 07:03 PM (W08yv)

308 I just asked a question. I am not responsible for the issues with the abuse of your wife by kids and I am very sorry this had happened to her. It sounds awful. I have read all your posts. I just didn't know if you had additional suggestions other than not mainstreaming violent kids which I agree with.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 16, 2012 07:06 PM (v8RoL)

309 I cried when she wrote "I am Adam Lanza's mother". I was like that kid. But my mother had no strenght to shoot me like animal I was.

I dunno, maybe some of you guys can finish the job, just do not blame mother. Ok?

Posted by: Alexandr Munroe at December 16, 2012 07:11 PM (5z4rF)

310 I just didn't know if you had additional suggestions other than not mainstreaming violent kids which I agree with.

Perhaps I came across a little angry. I'm sorry. I did five years in teaching -- of kids the same age as those who were murdered. So I'm a little angry, remembering all those tiny little kind faces searching through their book bags for pretzel or lunch money, and when they couldn't find it, reaching into my own pocket to cover the menial expense. I loved each and every one of them like they were my own child.

But I think that the family member who e-mailed me that pretty much hit it on the head. We can not 'mainstream' (that is, act as if nothing is the slightest matter wrong with some of these children and include them in 'everyday' classrooms) any longer. There is something wrong with them. Until the mental health profession figures out how to make them an inconsequential threat to society I'll continue to be angry, continue to argue that they have no business in a 'mainstream' classroom.

If you have read of the mother of the murderer, she was a classroom aide, angry at the administration, who then decided to 'homeschool' the son. Read between the lines. The school wanted him 'out'. She wanted him 'in'.

I think he was in the school much too long.

Posted by: Regular Moron at December 16, 2012 07:19 PM (feFL6)

311 #309 Alexandr Munroe, if you are over 18 please go see a doctor who has experience dealing with problems like yours. Do not try to get yourself harmed. Get help. You need to be with people who can help you, in a safe place. I will pray for you.

Posted by: Miss Marple at December 16, 2012 07:48 PM (GoIUi)

312 "Anarchist Soccer Mom"? WTF?

1
: a person who rebels against any authority, established order, or ruling power
2
: a person who believes in, advocates, or promotes anarchism or anarchy; especially : one who uses violent means to overthrow the established order

How many people are serving life sentences for driving under the influence? There is legal precedence for protecting society at large when individuals repeatedly present the potential for disaster. Something tells me most of them and their mommies would say that they don't belong in jail either.

"No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail." Yeah, you're right there. But that statement leaves out the glaring potential for that "genius" to rampage and kill American Citizens because he thinks you failed to butter his bread properly.

Posted by: i like anchors at December 16, 2012 08:47 PM (LCZ3l)

313 FYI , sell and possession of automatic weapons have been illegal for some time:
"Feldman could have also pointed out that it's already illegal for Americans to own fully automatic weapons (more commonly called machine guns) that were made after 1986. (According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives [ATF], an automatic weapon allows a shooter to fire more than one round with a single trigger pull). Of the 250,000 or so legally registered machine guns kicking around, many are at shooting ranges or in the hands of dealers. The only way that citizens can legally own such weapons made before 1986 is by going through an extensive approval process run by ATF.

Not only has machine gun ownership has been strictly controlled since 1934, the use of fully automatic weapons - whether legal or illegal - in criminal activity is vanishingly small. So getting rid of the few machine guns still in legal circulation would have just about zero effect on anything."
http://reason.com/archives/2012/12/15/4-archetypally-awful-reactions-to-sandy/singlepage

Posted by: notsothoreau at December 16, 2012 09:14 PM (uPhCY)

314 I have not the time to read everything, I am not well. It you have anyone one threaten you with harm, call the police and have him arressted. If he, your son has threatened to do harm to you, with a knife, he has intent!

Call the Police, you arrest him, yourself, the Police will NOT.

I once arrested my father this way. Even though he is a minor and your son, give this a try, if not, drop him off at the Police Station, because he may harm your children , he has given intent that is enough. If an adult did this they would arrest them.

twitter @carolkoceja

Posted by: carol koceja at December 17, 2012 03:03 AM (uljVO)

315 Drew M:
"It's not semantics. They are two very different types of institutions, with two very different types of missions and personnel. I'm not condoning this woman's choice not to have her son committed (if it's a financial option) but don't pretend a prison is a mental health facility. Far, far from it. "
I never said a prison is the same asd a mental health facility, only that forcibly confined people are held in mental health facilities that are part of the correctional system. And that's the whole issue. Forcible confinement and treatment or voluntary. And until you do something that warrants confinement, you can't be forced to undergo treatment. I have never seen any credible evidence showing that mental health treatment is not available (at no cost), only that those who need it cannot be forced to get it until they "do something". That's an entirely different issue.
"Available to citizens statewide, Virginia’s public mental health, intellectual disability and substance abuse services system is comprised of 16 state facilities and 40 locally-run community services boards (CSBs) The CSBs and facilities serve children and adults who have or who are at risk of mental illness, serious emotional disturbance, intellectual disabilities, or substance abuse disorders."
Do yo have any evidence that a person who wanted to get help with one of these facilities could not? If the mother took the child here, would they be turned away? If not, it comes down, as I said, to voluntary or involuntary.

Posted by: Landru at December 17, 2012 11:12 AM (gaP+R)

316 I don't know what state she lives in, but my state is full of "State Schools" and group homes. My former college roommate works at a group home for some of the worst of the worst disabled adults - diagnosed as retarded, severely autistic (or both) and a handful of fragile-X patients. I think at last count there were ten residents, all men over 30.
I'm done with blaming "the system" andNOT blaming parents. Every one of theseyoung men - their familes KNEW there was something wrong with them but didn't control them particularly well. Look, it's not my job to control your kid. It's your job.

Another thing I'm done with: parents - and apparently our culture -whofoster this ridiculous notion thattheir children are ENTITLED to love, respect, fame, attention. This countrywas in a much better place when people had the idea that children should be seen and not heard, andGod came first.

You know why I like Mormon kids?They understand right off that they are special, but not too special, since there are 9 other kids in the family. Least selfish and self-centeredkids you will ever meet. These douches that want to go out in a blaze of glory should have gotten a Singapore stylesmackdown (the good of societycomes before your right to chew gum)when they were kids, and they wouldn't be so anxious for attention.
Sorry to be late to the rant, but I'm done with attention whore youngsters.

Posted by: the other coyote at December 17, 2012 11:53 AM (yK44T)

317 The correct response to the shitbag threatening a parent with a knife or anything else is to put a bullet in his defective little brain. Claim self defense, which it would be. End of problem. For everyone.

Posted by: USMC Steve at December 17, 2012 12:22 PM (7vEeF)

318 Asperger's and High-Functioning Autism is my area. Guess what? They're more dangerous than most. Not having a talent for reading or considering the feelings of others will do that to you. Guess what else? It's in the parents control. Everyone with the IQ to feed themselves when there's food in front of them responds to behaviorism. EVERYONE. And only the parents have the access and control to be able to effect behaviorism properly. It takes time and consistency *that's all*. The kid pulled a knife on his mom, not because he has frontal lobe impulse problems (he does), but because he *wasn't afraid not to*.

The solution is not to make the kid less him parent's problem, but more.

Posted by: Darrel at December 17, 2012 03:04 PM (7nhuY)






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