NYT Reporter: 1:47 PM Is Not The Time To Begin Discussing The Politics Of The Killing. It's Sick.
The Correct Time To Begin Discussing the Politics of This Is 4:47 PM.

Please note it for your records.

Incidentally, the gun-rights people "politicizing" this are doing so pre-emptively, because they've seen this play six hundred times before and they know what happens in the Second Act.

I mean, it's not like we're as stupid as you claim. We are able to remember things that happened more than a week ago.

This is also why we now immediately search for a gunman's political affiliation-- because we know that's the first thing you do.


Adam Lansa Was Autistic, Had Asperger's, and Had a Personality Disorder: So says his surviving brother.

4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Which, of course, will hopefully not demean other people with autism or Asperger's.

This is a very sticky question for any society. What we have here, it seems, was a Strange Young Man.

What do you do about Strange Young Men? The state can attempt an intervention, but that's a nice, euphemistic way to say "interfere with their lives for no better reason than the fact that they act oddly." Most people who act oddly or are socially inept are perfectly nice and law-abiding. (I'm one of them.)

On the other hand, you can strictly observe their freedom to be odd ducks, and suffer the occasional calamity when it turns out that this particular odd duck was the one you should have checked on.

Posted by: Ace at 05:05 PM



Comments

1 1st

Posted by: eureka! at December 14, 2012 05:06 PM (HPRku)

2

I'm politicked out.

Let them have their little liberal world, and then when Anders Brevick pops up here, we can send him to a nice cushy prison for only 20 years.

Posted by: imp at December 14, 2012 05:07 PM (UaxA0)

3 No surprise there. Assholes. Dishonest, fucking assholes.

Drudge has a bit from the brother/neighbors speaking to "oddness" and mental disorder. They should shine the light on that and other factors, e.g., Black Ops 3 et al. in the hands of such people. Not blaming the games, but they provide templates for the "theater" you wrote of earlier which they live out, IMHO.

Posted by: eureka! at December 14, 2012 05:09 PM (HPRku)

4 I've generally come to the conclusion that if you use a tragedy such as this to advance an previously established political agenda within 12 hours of it occurring, you are an insufferable scumfuck.

Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at December 14, 2012 05:09 PM (aozUR)

5 and they know what happens in the Second Act.

Gun sales go up?

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 14, 2012 05:10 PM (QupBk)

6 I'd just like one of these fools to answer this question:

If guns and ease of access to guns are to blame, why don't gun ranges look like the killing fields of Cambodia?

But by all means lets continue to think with emotion.

Posted by: damnnodaks at December 14, 2012 05:10 PM (IhvEa)

7 I, meanwhile, am an utter douche canoe for my horrendous grammar.

Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at December 14, 2012 05:10 PM (aozUR)

8 I'm politicked out.

Let them have their little liberal world,and then when Anders Brevick pops up here, we can send him to a nice cushy prison for only 20 years.

Same here. I've argued with facts for 30 years with no results.

Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at December 14, 2012 05:11 PM (GFM2b)

9 you can ban guns....but I can forge my own gun and whatever else i may need....you can't ban lathes and shit...the USSR didn't even do that.

Posted by: Gault at December 14, 2012 05:12 PM (PALjS)

10 Set the Narrative before facts get in the way.

Posted by: zsasz at December 14, 2012 05:12 PM (MMC8r)

11 Done

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 14, 2012 05:13 PM (oQmCC)

12 If guns and ease of access to guns are to blame, why don't gun ranges look like the killing fields of Cambodia?

Well, them Orientals are an inscrutable folk ...

Posted by: Sheldon Cooper's Momma at December 14, 2012 05:13 PM (gh+mp)

13
But what of society's responsibility in this tragedy, the expert pundits will ask.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:13 PM (G/zuv)

14 We all must give up a little liberty for safety.

Posted by: toby928© with a goatee at December 14, 2012 05:14 PM (QupBk)

15 I've generally come to the conclusion that if you use a tragedy such as this to advance an previously established political agenda within 12 hours of it occurring, you are an insufferable scumfuck.
Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at December 14, 2012 05:09 PM (aozUR)


and desperate

Posted by: beach at December 14, 2012 05:14 PM (LpQbZ)

16 Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells
authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger
syndrome and a “personality disorder.”


HAH!!! A Tea Partier!!!

Posted by: The Fourth Estate at December 14, 2012 05:14 PM (QKKT0)

17 Everything is political with the left. Exploiting tragedies just underscores their cravenness.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 14, 2012 05:14 PM (i0vBR)

18 and they know what happens in the Second Act

Blame Bush?

Posted by: fluffy at December 14, 2012 05:14 PM (3SvjA)

19 Again, I've heard several reporters/analysts refer to the killer as a "kid". Pathetic.

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 05:15 PM (BVkEs)

20 It does mean he was likely under psychiatric care.
Somebody diagnosed him.

Hasn't that been true of most of the recent psycho shooters? They were being treated?

That means there's hope for better tools for shrinks and counselors to spot imminent violence and report them.

Not great hope, but hope. This wasn't totally out of the blue.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 05:15 PM (ZPrif)

21 Interesting---parent interviewed never heard of this teacher. It doesn't work like that at a small school.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 14, 2012 05:15 PM (MPjT8)

22 There's no Black Ops 3. Number 2 was released in late Nov.

Posted by: EC at December 14, 2012 05:16 PM (doBIb)

23 My 7 year old has Aspergers. This is my biggest fear.

Posted by: Lauren at December 14, 2012 05:16 PM (wsGWu)

24
Heather just made me realize why we have the ghoulish grief counselors today.

Because schools won't allow clergy in the schools; it would be a violation of the nonexistent church and state separation clause in the Constitution!


Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:17 PM (G/zuv)

25 I have as much confidence in the reports of Adam Lanza wearing "military style body armor" as I do in the reports of James Holmes having worn it.

Polyester straps, yes. Armor, no.

(Can we finally ban polyester?)

I looks like the shooter's mother divorced his father and married a wealthier man. I wonder if the Culture of No-Fault Divorce had anything to do with it.

(I wish I were kidding on that score.)

Posted by: Phinn at December 14, 2012 05:17 PM (oFH2D)

26 I guessed earlier this guy was either on meds or just recently stopped taking them.

Posted by: EC at December 14, 2012 05:17 PM (doBIb)

27 Interesting---parent interviewed never heard of this teacher. It doesn't work like that at a small school.


Subsitute teacher sent from district hq?

Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at December 14, 2012 05:17 PM (GFM2b)

28 Kinda reminds me of the Onion headline -

In The Know: Is The Government Spying On Paranoid Schizophrenics Enough?

Panelists discuss ways to care for the nation's paranoid schizophrenics, such as hiding cameras in their homes or audio transmitters in their ears.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 05:17 PM (ZPrif)

29 The Virginia Tech shooter was also a strange, ant-social person. Like totally anti-social even as a toddler. What do you do with people like that in a free society?

Posted by: Serious Cat at December 14, 2012 05:17 PM (UypUQ)

30 How do they know which brother was the gunman?

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 14, 2012 05:17 PM (i0vBR)

31 Maybe it's time to start placing mentally ill people that could be harmful to others in a mental institution.
This isn't the 40s....humane care is available.
But sadly, being dangerously mentally ill is a protected class of citizens now.
This didn't need to happen at all.

Posted by: Christmasghost at December 14, 2012 05:18 PM (lhNul)

32 flatbush, ah, well, if he was diagnosed with a personality disorder, it means that.

The brother might have been diagnosing him as a non-expert, though. People tend to look up psychological explanations for the people around them.

You allll know what I'm talking about.

(Or is it just me? I don't think it's just me. I think in Psych 101 when they tell you "the words we're going to be using are medical terms and not to be used as insults just because someone made you mad" that is pretty much the Go Code for everyone to use the terminology as insults against anyone who makes them mad. )

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:18 PM (LCRYB)

33 >> Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.”

Well which is it? Because if you have one of these diagnoses in your family, you tend to know.

I'm betting they don't have an official diagnosis from a doctor and applied these socially-acceptable labels to what was really a developing case of schizophrenia. But I could be wrong.

Posted by: Andy at December 14, 2012 05:18 PM (C/NnJ)

34
nickless, you ol homo, is that you??


Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:18 PM (G/zuv)

35 So if Fox is saying his mother was found dead at the house and he then went to the school, why did he go to the school? She wasn't there. Maybe the dead person at the home is the step-father.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 05:18 PM (ulzt7)

36 >>>How do they know which brother was the gunman?

i should hope by now they've swabbed for gunpowder residue and such.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:19 PM (LCRYB)

37
Subsitute teacher sent from district hq?Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at December 14, 2012 05:17 PM (GFM2b)
================
But I thought Lanza was the one they were talking about.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 14, 2012 05:19 PM (MPjT8)

38 No way a single mother and kindergarten teacher can afford a home in that neighborhood without some help.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 05:19 PM (ulzt7)

39 I'm not aware that Asperger folks have elevated rates of violence. Maybe compared to the general population since it skews male. But compared to other males?

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 05:19 PM (ZPrif)

40 How do they know which brother was the gunman?>>

He's the dead one surrounded by shell casings.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at December 14, 2012 05:19 PM (81UWZ)

41 "What do you do with people like that in a free society?"

Well, if you do too much with them you wind up without any Beethovens or Isaac Newtons.

I wonder how many young Ludwigs and Isaacs have been medicated for "their own good"?

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 14, 2012 05:19 PM (fjNx5)

42 How did this person gain access to firearms?

Clearly, he is not legally qualified to purchase, own, or possess firearms.

Posted by: Fritz at December 14, 2012 05:19 PM (K/NRd)

43 "I'm not aware that Asperger folks have elevated rates of violence."

They don't. They're far more likely to be the victims than the perpetrators.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 14, 2012 05:20 PM (fjNx5)

44 >> I'm not aware that Asperger folks have elevated rates of violence.

They don't.

Posted by: Andy at December 14, 2012 05:20 PM (C/NnJ)

45 by the way, you all are borderline personalities with morbid affect.

I'm just speaking medically. No offense.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:21 PM (LCRYB)

46 >>> How did this person gain access to firearms?

One report said they were his mother's.

Then again, who knows?

Posted by: Phinn at December 14, 2012 05:21 PM (oFH2D)

47 International media take their cues from American media.

Euro finger-wagging in 3... 2... 1...

Posted by: Dr. Varno at December 14, 2012 05:21 PM (zJ/hL)

48 Ok, forgive my stupidity, but in CT do you have to be 21 to get a firearm? I can't remember. If that's the case the weapons aren't his.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 05:21 PM (ulzt7)

49
I thought that was nickless' hash. Guess not.

He's been gone for months.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:21 PM (G/zuv)

50 It does mean he was likely under psychiatric care.

Somebody diagnosed him.



Hasn't that been true of most of the recent psycho shooters? They were being treated?


---

We need to ban psychiatrists.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 05:21 PM (Hx5uv)

51 How did this person gain access to firearms?

Clearly, he is not legally qualified to purchase, own, or possess firearms



He stole them from someone. No way he got them legally.

Posted by: EC at December 14, 2012 05:21 PM (doBIb)

52 23 My 7 year old has Aspergers. This is my biggest fear.

Posted by: Lauren at December 14, 2012 05:16 PM (wsGWu)


I'm not an expert but I think you're worrying about a lightning strike. In a cave.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 05:21 PM (bxiXv)

53 Eh, autism diagnosis is sketchy. You have the Autism spectrum, Aspergers, PPD-NOS...or you did til the latest overhaul of the DM.

Posted by: Lauren at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (wsGWu)

54 I believe Aspergers is a trendy thing to self diagnose among young adults who have difficulty fitting in with others.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (6WVi+)

55 >>Adam Lansa Was Autistic, Had Asperger's, and Had a Personality Disorder



But as it turns out his single best quality is that he's fucking dead.

Posted by: ontherocks at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (aZ6ew)

56 You know, SCOAMF wasn't shedding a tear for the kids, he was crying over lostvotes from the teachers for his third term.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (ulzt7)

57 We need to ban psychiatrists.




Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 05:21 PM (Hx5uv)


I've been saying that for awhile....

Posted by: Tom Cruise at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (/YJYi)

58 There's no Black Ops 3. Number 2 was released in late Nov.

Posted by: EC at December 14, 2012 05:16 PM

You're right. I got that from one of the shooter's tweets. (I don't play, son does).

Posted by: eureka! at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (HPRku)

59 How do they know which brother was the gunman?
Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 14, 2012 05:17 PM (i0vBR)

Because the real gunman has a bullet in his head and his brains are splattered all over hall in that school up in Newtown....Dead give away

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (jE38p)

60 You'd think after two mass-merders by the mentally not-well in a few years (Giffords.. then Auroa), we'd finally get on ball working on reforming our mental health laws people keep bringing up.

What are we waiting for?

Posted by: Serious Cat at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (UypUQ)

61 didn't they just change the name of Aspergers to something else?

Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (G/zuv)

62 Sorry for pushing the "Asperger's, Autistic" thing without caveating it more.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (LCRYB)

63 by the way, you all are borderline personalities with morbid affect.

I'm putting tape over the webcam right now, you peeker.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 14, 2012 05:22 PM (QupBk)

64 We all must give up a little liberty for the illusion of safety.

FIFY.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 05:23 PM (/kI1Q)

65 Oops. Maybe that was older brother tweet. Skateboarder too. Oh well.

Posted by: eureka! at December 14, 2012 05:23 PM (HPRku)

66 Also, Rosenthal wasn't *really* objecting to the speed of the comment, but to the content.

It is always too soon for someone who disagrees with a leftist to speak up.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 05:23 PM (bxiXv)

67 42....Supposedly he got them from his mother.
I wonder if she had those for her own protection against him.
Just speculation

Posted by: Christmasghost at December 14, 2012 05:23 PM (g8+Vr)

68 It's been suggested by a friend who has a history of mental illness (and being treated for it) that these mass murders can be prevented is there was better funding for mental health centers so people like Lanza can get treatment and the drugs they need, and that there are a lot of mentally unstable people out there not getting treatment simply because they can't afford it, or there's no room for them at these facilities.

It just strikes me as bit odd the idea that taking a drug pill is all that is required to stop a mentally ill person from offing half of creation.

Posted by: Christina Hendricks's Mighty Jugs are Really SMOD in Disguise at December 14, 2012 05:24 PM (v6GqR)

69 >>>I'm not aware that Asperger folks have elevated rates of violence. Maybe
compared to the general population since it skews male. But compared to
other males?

If you deal with someone of ASD, you will at somepoint find the thing called a meltdown. It is a kind of anger fuels being angry state that becomes totally disproportionate and uncontrolled. That doesn't necessarily mean violent. But it does mean extremely angry, uncontrolled, and nothing in the world will make them happy.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 05:25 PM (0q2P7)

70 DR. Varno,
the Euro-fingerwagging started as soon as the shooting was reported...as well as the accusations that American 2nd amendment supporting politicians are responsible. The idiocy of the euro-left makes the American -left look almost sane by comparison.

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at December 14, 2012 05:25 PM (53riN)

71 65 Oops. Maybe that was older brother tweet. Skateboarder too. Oh well.
Posted by: eureka! at December 14, 2012 05:23 PM (HPRku)


I don't know that we've identified any of these social media accounts as the correct person yet.

Could be some unrelated third party.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 05:25 PM (bxiXv)

72 >> didn't they just change the name of Aspergers to something else?

Yes. In the DSM V they did away with it and now it's just part of "Autism Spectrum Disorder" ... which now becomes a diagnosis so big you can drive a Mack truck through it.

Posted by: Andy at December 14, 2012 05:25 PM (C/NnJ)

73
Yep, I will guess he was already getting "mental help" and was "on somebody's radar".

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 14, 2012 05:25 PM (n/ubI)

74 In my rather small circle of friends, I know three boys with Asperger's. Two are seniors in high school and one is in 9th grade. They are as nice as can be, and all are in mainstream schools and doing well. It is scary to think this kind of thing could happen in their families. Their mothers are all very dear friends of mine.

Posted by: rockmom at December 14, 2012 05:25 PM (aBlZ1)

75 Outlaw personality disorders.

It's for the children.

Posted by: egd at December 14, 2012 05:25 PM (XVGEg)

76 At this point, I think I'd wait a bit before taking his Aspergers and Autism to the bank with all of today's bullshit still in the air.


Posted by: ontherocks at December 14, 2012 05:25 PM (aZ6ew)

77 Personally, I think there has been too many new disease discoveries. Everything is now a disease. A gene made me do it.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 14, 2012 05:26 PM (zpqa2)

78 No way a single mother and kindergarten teacher can afford a home in that neighborhood without some help.

You hang around the public school system long enough, they pay pretty good money, no matter what grade you teach.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at December 14, 2012 05:26 PM (feFL6)

79 I should have caveated that more. Sorry.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:26 PM (LCRYB)

80 Good point, ace.

Anybody who is detail-focused gets jokingly labeled OCD or aspie. Of course, it probably is a shared trait to a degree.

My two richest friends seem almost non-human to the avg person cause they can be so machine-like and detail-obsessed.

Which is good in a doctor. My rich doctor friends won't warm your soul with their bedside manner. But if you have something unusual that's wrong with you, you really want them as your doc since they obsessively read all the medical journals and have near perfect recall.

And both have wives and kids. And they are aware. One guy does a funny imitation of himself. He understands. Everybody called him Spock since he was 5.

The joke is often something like, "Here's a Christmas present. Having read up on the customs of humans I understand that this gift is generous enough to bring you happiness - an emotion that I understand you, as a human, experience -- but not so generous as to make you feel beholden to me, the gift-giver. Merry Christmas!"

Both have wives and kids. Probably would've been diagnosed as aspie if they were kids today.

And have I mentioned they are rich as hell?

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 05:26 PM (ZPrif)

81 On the other hand, you can strictly observe their freedom to be odd ducks, and suffer the occasional calamity when it turns out that this particular odd duck was the one you should have checked on.


-----------------------------------------------


I don't know if someone famous said this or not, but I was told at a young age that freedom was messy. Freedom never fits into a particular mold.

Posted by: Soona at December 14, 2012 05:26 PM (1CXqI)

82 Well, no a.mass shooting, per se. But worry about him hurting someone else? Absolutely. He's not allowed to hold his baby sister because he might just randomly stand up and drop her. Not out of malice, but because he thinks "I want to stand" and has absolutely no concept of how his actions affect anyone else.

Posted by: Lauren at December 14, 2012 05:26 PM (wsGWu)

83 42
How did this person gain access to firearms?

Clearly, he is not legally qualified to purchase, own, or possess firearms.


Posted by: Fritz at December 14, 2012 05:19 PM (K/NRd)

True Facts From Media , says his mothers guns.

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 14, 2012 05:26 PM (AWmfW)

84 We all must give up a little liberty for the illusion of safety.



Yes, due to the abuses of a very small minority the vast majority must surrender a fundamental right. And now they can actually say "It's for the children".

Posted by: Adam at December 14, 2012 05:26 PM (/YJYi)

85 We need to ban Asperger's Syndrome.

Posted by: Wm T Sherman at December 14, 2012 05:27 PM (w41GQ)

86 Neighbor's two kids are autistic. Uh oh....

Then again, they're 4 and 5 so the only thing I might have to be worried about is them peeing on my lawn.

Posted by: EC at December 14, 2012 05:27 PM (doBIb)

87
12/09/12

The American Psychiatric Association announced the change as part of an update of
the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, a go-to source for doctors when diagnosing
mental and developmental disorders. Under the revisions, Asperger's disorder will
no longer be considered a separate condition.

Asperger's disorder [is now included] within the autism
spectrum

Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:27 PM (G/zuv)

88 True Facts From Media , says his mothers guns.
Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 14, 2012 05:26 PM (AWmfW)
------------------------
His mother had a semi-auto .223?

Posted by: Wm T Sherman at December 14, 2012 05:27 PM (w41GQ)

89 Neighbor describes shooter as "odd" and displayed characteristics of having a mental disorder, per ABC.

Posted by: Douglass at December 14, 2012 05:28 PM (Vi1ue)

90 Can "caveat" actually be used as a verb?

Posted by: Waterhouse at December 14, 2012 05:28 PM (JACEX)

91 >>>
And both have wives and kids. And they are aware. One guy does a funny imitation of himself. He understands. Everybody called him Spock since he was 5.

The joke is often something like, "Here's a Christmas present. Having read up on the customs of humans I understand that this gift is generous enough to bring you happiness - an emotion that I understand you, as a human, experience -- but not so generous as to make you feel beholden to me, the gift-giver. Merry Christmas!"

...

he should write for the Big Bang Theory as that is precisely the pattern of every line of Sheldon's.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:28 PM (LCRYB)

92 which now becomes a diagnosis so big you can drive a Mack truck through it

You have to think of a continuum, a line from left to right, then points above and below, then way above and way below. Then points to the upper right, and to the lower left, then below left and right, with variants in-between.

Basically, an entire cosmic cluster-fuck of oddness.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at December 14, 2012 05:29 PM (feFL6)

93 The joke is often something like, "Here's a Christmas present. Having
read up on the customs of humans I understand that this gift is generous
enough to bring you happiness - an emotion that I understand you, as a
human, experience -- but not so generous as to make you feel beholden to
me, the gift-giver. Merry Christmas!"


======


Sounds like Sheldon Cooper.....

Posted by: Tami at December 14, 2012 05:29 PM (X6akg)

94 That's Sheldon to a T.

Posted by: EC at December 14, 2012 05:29 PM (doBIb)

95 Then again, they're 4 and 5 so the only thing I might have to be worried about is them peeing on my lawn.
Posted by: EC at December 14, 2012 05:27 PM (doBIb)

Probably not great for your lawn. Now if they crapped on your lawn, that's good for your lawn

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:29 PM (jE38p)

96 Can "caveat" actually be used as a verb?


Posted by: Waterhouse at December 14, 2012 05:28 PM (JACEX)

Sure. Consider it verbed.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 14, 2012 05:29 PM (zpqa2)

97 Personally, I think there has been too many new disease discoveries. Everything is now a disease. A gene made me do it.

---

What once were sins are now diseases.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 05:29 PM (Hx5uv)

98 ... which now becomes a diagnosis so big you can drive a Mack truck through it.

SSDI for everyone!



Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 05:30 PM (/kI1Q)

99 Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.”

His use of the phrase "personality disorder" means you can pretty much ignore what preceded it.

I think the brother is being elliptical and is really saying that his family knew he was acting like a sociopath and needed help.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 14, 2012 05:30 PM (TtXjG)

100 You know the first thing the media will be looking at is race, religion, political affiliations and such. For conservatives to do the same thing is just common sense because to the left and the media (birm) it is a weapon to use to their advantage.

Posted by: Bosk (D) at December 14, 2012 05:31 PM (n2K+4)

101 Just watched TFG presser. What a fake son of a bitch.

Posted by: RWC at December 14, 2012 05:31 PM (fWAjv)

102 Why can't they find the liberalism gene?

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 14, 2012 05:31 PM (zpqa2)

103 he should write for the Big Bang Theory as that is precisely the pattern of every line of Sheldon's.
>>

There is an episode where Sheldon did basically that line.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at December 14, 2012 05:31 PM (81UWZ)

104 There was a weird guy on a forum I belonged to who was always saying something nutty and offensive. I googled his moniker and found him in an asperger's support group. He really had no clue whast was going on. He was trying to fit into our group but it was as if we were speaking a foreign language. The guy was obviously very intelligent. I felt really sorry for him. He didn't know what he was doing wrong.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:31 PM (0Ufr+)

105 And yes, the meltdowns are scary. It's the combination of extreme anger and lack of empathy that keeps me awake.

Don't get me wrong. My son is also bright, funny, and sweet. It's not like he's a sociopath killing animals for fun.

Posted by: Lauren at December 14, 2012 05:31 PM (wsGWu)

106 I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested

Posted by: Dr. Sheldon Cooper at December 14, 2012 05:31 PM (NzBQO)

107 Oh, erg. You were beaten to your stale talking points HOURS ago.

Posted by: Waterhouse at December 14, 2012 05:32 PM (JACEX)

108 Just watched TFG presser. What a fake son of a bitch.
Posted by: RWC at December 14, 2012 05:31 PM (fWAjv)

No. He is a real SOB. That is not fake.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:32 PM (jE38p)

109 Like I said earlier, we don't have a gun problem, we have a people problem. As usual, Liberals refuse to acknowledge this and ghoulishly are pursuing bans on means and methods rather than dealing with PERPETRATORS.

Since the criminals and crazies are now part of a victim class that makes dealing with the 'root causes' of violence a nonstarter. So they go off to punish everyone else that wasn't responsible in the only way they know how, restricting freedom in the name of good through the expansion of state powers.

And sadly that actually makes the rest of us less safe, as defenseless sheep at the mercy of crazies, criminals, and an unchecked leviathan of a state.

Posted by: Blue Falcon in Boston at December 14, 2012 05:32 PM (KCvsd)

110 99
two observations, about which we can all agree as the defenders of our
sacred right to bear arms: the teacher should have been armed; a bunch
of kids were murdered, but that's the price we pay for our sacred right
to bear arms. Thank the children for their unwitting sacrifice to our
freedom!

This knucklehead shit is easy.

Were you born a cunt or did your momma just not love you enough?

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at December 14, 2012 05:32 PM (6WVi+)

111 Ignore the troll. He's hoping to outrage an audience by his sociopathic actions just as the shooter was hoping to outrage an audience buy his sociopathic actions.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 05:32 PM (Hx5uv)

112 >>79
I should have caveated that more. Sorry.


Personally, I rather have an apology for being called borderline.

I'm 5, almost 6 miles from the damn border.


......was it my plates?

Posted by: ontherocks at December 14, 2012 05:32 PM (aZ6ew)

113 Probably not great for your lawn. Now if they crapped on your lawn, that's good for your lawn



Well the younger one likes to walk around butt nekkid. I was walking dogs one morning, saw the younger one, turned around and walked the other way back home.

Posted by: EC at December 14, 2012 05:32 PM (doBIb)

114 >>>There is an episode where Sheldon did basically that line.

there are 40 episodes where Sheldon did basically that line.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:32 PM (LCRYB)

115 "Can "caveat" actually be used as a verb?"

Caveat IS a verb in the original Latin.

Caveat emptor -> Let the buyer beware.
Cave canis -> Beware of the dog.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 14, 2012 05:33 PM (fjNx5)

116 States need to require police and fire employees to eat more salads. Just an observation...

Posted by: Douglass at December 14, 2012 05:33 PM (Vi1ue)

117

Where do these shooters get 'The Idea' of going out and shooting people on a mass scale?

Posted by: wheatie at December 14, 2012 05:33 PM (K4wCe)

118
OCD is a personality disorder.
OCD is common in conjunction with autism/asperger.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:33 PM (0Ufr+)

119 If we had better gun control, Cain would not have been able to murder Abel.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 05:33 PM (Hx5uv)

120 The Big Bang Theory has possibly infected my memories of my friend's jokes. But that really is how we'd tease him. It was more that we were doing Data from Trek jokes about him. And he would do the same about himself.

And my friend is/was hyper-masculine with a super deep voice with very flat affect. He was a football player in high school. He sounds like Worf doing a Data impression.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 05:33 PM (ZPrif)

121 I wish Obama would carry around towels to wipe his brow like Elvis did. Hand em out to the MFM.

Good times.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 14, 2012 05:33 PM (zpqa2)

122 Can "caveat" actually be used as a verb?Posted by: Waterhouse at December 14, 2012 05:28 PM (JACEX) That's a perfectly cromulent use of the word.

Posted by: Concern Troll at December 14, 2012 05:33 PM (4KOF2)

123
My heart aches for those who lost a child or a loved one. Pray for them, before ause they're gonna need it to get through what's ahead.

Ihave no pity for fools who would give up some liberty for the sake of safety.

Posted by: crotcheyoldjarhead at December 14, 2012 05:34 PM (6Uk7l)

124 I'm sorry I just had a bleach and orange juice cocktail. Excuse me.

Posted by: Erg at December 14, 2012 05:34 PM (/YJYi)

125 Anybody who is detail-focused gets jokingly labeled OCD

If you don't refer to it as CDO, you ain't got it. /s

Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at December 14, 2012 05:34 PM (kSqv6)

126 I think Ergastularius is pretty close to going full Loughner himself.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 14, 2012 05:34 PM (QupBk)

127 "What we have here, it seems, was a Strange Young Man."

In several previous instances of Strange Young Men having run violently amuck, it eventually was reported that the strange young men in question had been having powerful psychiatric medications stuffed down their throats.

I expect we will shortly learn something similar in this case.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 14, 2012 05:35 PM (ymG7s)

128 "This knuckle head shit" is not as easy as you think, because you continue to sound dim.

You've mistaken yourself for someone clever.

Know yourself. But know it somewhere else.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:35 PM (LCRYB)

129 weird investigation. Unidentified dead bodies all over the place?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:35 PM (jE38p)

130 FWIW, latest # is 20 children dead.

Posted by: Gerry at December 14, 2012 05:35 PM (DJIo7)

131 Big Bang was pretty good last nigh, where Sheldon learns the true meaning of Christmas.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:36 PM (0Ufr+)

132 Do we know his middle name yet? That's gotta be driving the MFM nuts.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 14, 2012 05:36 PM (zpqa2)

133
okay, this is how it works.

We receive news about a shooting. We then disseminate the news among our people. They know what to do with it.

First thing: accuse all conservatives and Republicans of being responsible for the shooting.

Second, make people defend the Second Amendment for several hours.

It works great every single time we do it.

Posted by: moonbat newswire at December 14, 2012 05:37 PM (G/zuv)

134 Can "caveat" actually be used as a verb?

It is actually the third person singular of the subjunctive ( or conjunctive) of the Latin verb caveo.

I am a language geek.

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at December 14, 2012 05:37 PM (53riN)

135 Big Bang was pretty good last nigh, where Sheldon learns the true meaning of Christmas.

---

I liked the part where Penny and Bernadette were walking around in their short dresses.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 05:37 PM (Hx5uv)

136 Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:31 PM (0Ufr+)
----

Got into an argument online with someone with Aspbergers. I didn't know until about 20 posts back and forth trying to get him to understand something simple. You could tell he was intelligent but he just would not/could not see what I was talking about. I finally asked him if he had something wrong and that is when he told me. Yeah, felt sorry for him.

Posted by: RWC at December 14, 2012 05:37 PM (fWAjv)

137 45
by the way, you all are borderline personalities with morbid affect.



I'm just speaking medically. No offense.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:21 PM (LCRYB)
Hey, no worries Ace. In the Brave New World to come, these attributes will give us an evolutionary advantage.

Posted by: tubal at December 14, 2012 05:37 PM (BoE3Z)

138 4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

That can't be right, the MSM reports said that Ryan Lanza was the shooter and he's now dead. How can he come back to life to speak to authorities? I heard it on the MSM, they can't say anything that isn't TRUE!!

Posted by: kbdabear at December 14, 2012 05:38 PM (wwsoB)

139 One thing I noticed with the crazy census guy is that local media printed direct quotes. Big time LSM would remove the quotes, rewrite it so it was the opposite of what was said, and pretend it was a quote.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:38 PM (0Ufr+)

140 All I got now:

Warren Zevon - Excitable Boy

http://youtu.be/uJefPK_UkdM

Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 14, 2012 05:38 PM (GBXon)

141
Ok, forgive my stupidity, but in CT do you have to be 21 to get a
firearm? I can't remember. If that's the case the weapons aren't his.

Not if you have assburgers disease. Those folks get a free ride every time.

Posted by: Little Johnny at December 14, 2012 05:38 PM (3p8sP)

142 nUVmB Obviously a heartless bastard that cares more about himself than children.

Posted by: JSD at December 14, 2012 05:39 PM (PALjS)

143 Fat Fuck Frum doubles down on Twitter

davidfrum ‏@davidfrum

I won't accept lectures about shooting "sensitivity" from those who enable the shootings in the first place



Posted by: kbdabear at December 14, 2012 05:39 PM (wwsoB)

144 Oh, erg. You were beaten to your stale talking points HOURS ago.
Posted by: Waterhouse at December 14, 2012 05:32 PM (JACEX)


---------------------------------------------------


I think it's Average erg. And he's begging to suck cock by choice.

Posted by: Soona at December 14, 2012 05:39 PM (1CXqI)

145 If anyone wants to take a break from real life horror, here is an awesome graphic that breaks down all the zombie kills in TWD.

http://tinyurl.com/acb953b

Posted by: RWC at December 14, 2012 05:39 PM (fWAjv)

146 Do we know his middle name yet? That's gotta be driving the MFM nuts.
Posted by: hannitys_hybrid


Pfff. Accuracy is *so* 20th century.

Posted by: Your Betters in the MSM at December 14, 2012 05:39 PM (TtXjG)

147
enable?


Posted by: moonbat newswire at December 14, 2012 05:39 PM (G/zuv)

148 >>>Yeah, felt sorry for him.
Posted by: RWC

Yeah, when I saw my guy talking with his fellow aspies and how they were all trying to figure out what we meant and how hard they were trying to do so, I felt really bad.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:40 PM (0Ufr+)

149 Personally, I think there has been too many new disease discoveries. Everything is now a disease. A gene made me do it.

Wachoo talkin' 'bout Willis?!

Posted by: Restless Leg Syndrome at December 14, 2012 05:40 PM (SiF4n)

150 Apparently Dick Morris is one of the scumfucks politicizing this shit.

DIAF Dicky

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 14, 2012 05:41 PM (BuSM8)

151 enable?

Ssh. He's rolling ... in butter.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 14, 2012 05:41 PM (QupBk)

152
did anyone here enable Adam Lanza?

Frum, you piece of shit. How dare you.



Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:41 PM (G/zuv)

153
Adam Lansa Was Autistic, Had Asperger's, and Had a Personality Disorder


He wasn't that odd. It's not like he named a daughter "Stanley" or anything.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 14, 2012 05:41 PM (4u2LN)

154 MSNBC is reporting that the killer had a really bad cold.

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 05:41 PM (BVkEs)

155 If anyone wants to take a break from real life horror, here is an awesome graphic that breaks down all the zombie kills in TWD.

http://tinyurl.com/acb953b
Posted by: RWC at December 14, 2012 05:39 PM (fWAjv)
---
Was planning on watching Ted and having a couple laughs this morning. I can say one thing for sure - if some m-fucking channel starts playing surveillance tapes of this - ever - no matter how edited, I will be one pissed off mofo.

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 05:42 PM (2t6Gz)

156 Got into an argument online with someone with Aspbergers. I didn't know until about 20 posts back and forth trying to get him to understand something simple. You could tell he was intelligent but he just would not/could not see what I was talking about.


----------------------------------------


Sounds like JeffB.

Posted by: Soona at December 14, 2012 05:42 PM (1CXqI)

157
>>Can "caveat" actually be used as a verb?



Perfect illustration of Class A Aspergers right there.

Posted by: ontherocks at December 14, 2012 05:42 PM (aZ6ew)

158 He was a quiet guy ... kept mostly to himself ...

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 14, 2012 05:43 PM (QupBk)

159
What's Morris, the man who will say anything he thinks we want to hear, saying?

Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:43 PM (G/zuv)

160 >>>I liked the part where Penny and Bernadette were walking around in their short dresses.
Posted by: WalrusRex

I liked when Penny stuck her head back in the door and told Raj he could come with them.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:43 PM (0Ufr+)

161 Frum is always an ignorant, self-righteous sack of shit.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 05:43 PM (bxiXv)

162
Oh yeah, I forgot in an earlier comment. NY Times? Yeah, you suck.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 14, 2012 05:43 PM (n/ubI)

163 Adam Lansa had not only guns but cells with 46 chromosomes. Let's ban guns and cells with 46 chromosomes.

Posted by: Michael Muttonhead at December 14, 2012 05:44 PM (eHIJJ)

164 "It's been suggested by a friend who has a history of mental illness (and
being treated for it) that these mass murders can be prevented is there
was better funding for mental health centers so people like Lanza can
get treatment and the drugs they need, and that there are a lot of
mentally unstable people out there not getting treatment simply because
they can't afford it"

Just a few facts to clear the air here:

(a) Lanza's mother was a public elementary school teacher.

(b) Public school teachers enjoy, just about universally, some of the most gold-plated health care benefits you could ever imagine. Including mental health benefits and prescription drug benefits.Where I live, there aren't even trivial $5 copays on drugs for those school employee plans.

(c) This coverage extends to the families and children of those schoolteachers.

(d) And nowadays, that coverage of "children" extends to age 26. Lanza was 20.

In other words, this "could not afford necessary mentals meds" proposition is most likely just utter left-wing bullshit.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 14, 2012 05:44 PM (ymG7s)

165 Rick Levanthal reporting Adam lived with his mother in Newton, shot her in the face in their home and then went to the school...

Posted by: Tami at December 14, 2012 05:44 PM (X6akg)

166 Frum is always an ignorant, self-righteous sack of shit.

What was it Ace said about Ezra Klein? Always fat but never in doubt.

I may be misremembering that.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 14, 2012 05:44 PM (QupBk)

167 "Big Bang was pretty good last nigh"

Big bang...good? does..not...compute

Posted by: El Patron AuthorLMendez, Wishing Everyone Happy Holidays at December 14, 2012 05:44 PM (yAor6)

168
The same people accusing us, as usual, of blood libel are the same who cannot even fathom a remote connection between Obama and four Americans, in service of their country, left in the lurch to die and be dragged through the streets.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:45 PM (G/zuv)

169 Anyone notice how Barry was mostly wiping away tears... from the OUTSIDE corners of his eyes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3tYW6P3bY8

Posted by: Stumbo at December 14, 2012 05:45 PM (xybzh)

170 Continuing....father is still alive and is speaking with police in NJ.

Posted by: Tami at December 14, 2012 05:45 PM (X6akg)

171 Has he been identified as a member of the Tea Party or a leader of the Tea Party?

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 14, 2012 05:45 PM (HDgX3)

172 Some of us with aspy would never ever hurt anything defensless. Just thinking about it makes me sick. Except bugs. They're made to be gassed on sight.

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 05:45 PM (2t6Gz)

173 I won't accept lectures about shooting "sensitivity" from those who enable the shootings in the first place

Um, Gun Free Zones. <<< There are your "enablers".

Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at December 14, 2012 05:46 PM (ug4Ge)

174 Morris said something about the shooting and how Obama isn't worried about all the abortions or something.

What a douchebag

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 14, 2012 05:46 PM (BuSM8)

175 >>>145 If anyone wants to take a break from real life horror, here is an awesome graphic that breaks down all the zombie kills in TWD.

http://tinyurl.com/acb953b
Posted by: RWC

Maggie is real badass. She gut a guy like a fish and in the big shoot out she was firing away. I think I'm in love!

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:46 PM (0Ufr+)

176 The psych field is largely bunk. We just don't understand how the brain works yet.

I was depressed once and went to a psychiatrist. I asked for an explanation of what was going on, scientifically, medically.
This psych MD told me, literally, that the "depression" center of my brain was activated.

I asked why would the brain have a "depression" center to be activated in the first place. That seems stupid, evolutionarily speaking. When I get the flu is my body's "flu center" activated?

Turns out my thyroid levels were low and my dipshit doctor should've checked that first before trying to get me to take psych meds and see a shrink. I wasn't tired and depressed all the time because my "depression center" was activated. I was tired and depressed because my immune system had attacked my thyroid gland and it was functioning at a diminished capacity.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 05:46 PM (ZPrif)

177 So no dead bodies in Hoboken. This asshole lived with his mom in Newtown CT.. Woke up killed his mom and then went to the School. OK So he killed his mom, sick, but it happens, But why go to the school and kill strangers and little kids to boot?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:46 PM (jE38p)

178 Um, Gun Free Zones. <<< There are your "enablers".

Ssh. He's rolling ... in blood.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 14, 2012 05:46 PM (QupBk)

179
So the current story is he shot his mom at her home before he went to the school, which I guess would mean the substitute teacher for her probably got shot.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 14, 2012 05:46 PM (n/ubI)

180 Why go to the school? That will be the HUGE question after this is all said and done. He already killed the target of his misery, his mother. Why kill a bunch of kids?

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 05:46 PM (ulzt7)

181 I don't know. I've got a couple family members that work in the education system. Plus, I've been there.

Would having an armed security person -- you know like what you see every day in a bank -- be such an outrageous proposition? The person would have to be trained, pass FBI and state background checks (like teachers), and be such an imposing summabitch that a pussy with a weird disorder would choose another place to manifest their weirdness.

Maybe I'm 'out there' but I'd like my family members to come home at night less then bullet-riddled.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at December 14, 2012 05:47 PM (feFL6)

182 I just read the Fox update. I understand the "fog" in a situation like this but this makes no sense.
In the same article it is reported that the murder's mother is both dead in her classroom and at her home.

Posted by: Long Island at December 14, 2012 05:47 PM (hl8SI)

183
In fact, all the women are real tough now: Maggie, Andrea, Michone, Carol. The only one we havent' seen do much killing is the teenager, Patty.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:47 PM (0Ufr+)

184 I've been waiting for the appropriate moment to use the phrase "scumfuck", and the recent algae bloom of assholes seemed like the right time, though maybe I'm being way too judicious in its use. I'd like to thank GG Allin for introducing me to it.

Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at December 14, 2012 05:47 PM (aozUR)

185 They'll go for gun control in the wake of this atrocity.

But if you say that we need to bring back mental hospitals and involuntary commitment, you'll be called a hater.

I watching the "hoarding" tv shows. About 70% of them are slobs who won't stay as clean as animals do in their dens. About 30% of them appear profoundly mentally ill, the kind of mentally ill that requires full-time care. We see mentally ill homeless everywhere. It's a tragedy.

And it was created by the liberals. "Close the mental institutions, they're awful and we can maintain people on medicine." Some of them were awful, I'm sure. But mentally ill people don't take their medicine, just like they don't know not to slaughter 20 tiny kindergartners, or shoot a congresswoman in the head, or kill a bunch of people at a Batman movie. We closed the mental hospitals, except for drugged-out celebrities and moody teenagers who cut themselves, and we end up with slaughter after slaughter after slaughter. It makes me want to weep.

Posted by: Palandine at December 14, 2012 05:47 PM (g7D8V)

186 So, at school pickup today, a guy from England was telling me that assault rifles should be banned and that there's no reason anyone should own an "automatic pistol". I didn't have time to school him on proper gun nomenclature, but I did ask him how the gun ban in England was working out. He said that it was just "the blacks" smuggling in guns and killing each other over drugs. I wanted to say, "Nice racism you've got there, limey" but I didn't feel like getting into a brawl in the school parking lot. Well, at least not today.
That said, I could not wait to get to school to pick up my child.

Posted by: Hoplite Housewife at December 14, 2012 05:47 PM (qtKqj)

187 . OK So he killed his mom, sick, but it happens, But why go to the school and kill strangers and little kids to boot?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:46 PM (jE38p)
Maybe because he's fucking nuts.

Posted by: tubal at December 14, 2012 05:48 PM (BoE3Z)

188 I noticed him wiping tears in the wrong part of his eyes too.

Posted by: Douglass at December 14, 2012 05:48 PM (Vi1ue)

189 tbf the comment referred to on twitter seems kinda goofy. not sure what the guy's specifically advocating.

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 05:48 PM (60GaT)

190 @183

Who wrote that article? Schrödinger?

Posted by: Concern Troll at December 14, 2012 05:49 PM (4KOF2)

191
Morris thinks that's we neanderthals who watch Fox News want to hear.

Dick Morris is trying to make up for being exposed, again, for a fraud on election day. That's why the other day he predicted Democrats flipping parties and big wins for us in 2014.

What a jerkoff.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:49 PM (G/zuv)

192 Would having an armed security person -- you know like what you see every day in a bank -- be such an outrageous proposition? The person would have to be trained, pass FBI and state background checks (like teachers), and be such an imposing summabitch that a pussy with a weird disorder would choose another place to manifest their weirdness.

Maybe I'm 'out there' but I'd like my family members to come home at night less then bullet-riddled.
Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at December 14, 2012 05:47 PM (feFL6)

Employ young Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines who are have served or in the Reserves part time, while they are in school. Israel does that. It's a win win

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:49 PM (jE38p)

193 Locally, a young man killed his mother, father and brother in their home with a ceremonial antique sword that had hung on the wall. When the police arrived at the scene, he was speaking incoherently and as if those murdered were no relation to him, or even human.
No guns in the house.
His family had indications he was ill, I don't know how he got to the point that he killed all of them. I've seen how a person with schizoaffective disorder decompensates, it usually occurs over time. IOW, there's usually a window of opportunity to get the individual some help.

As horrifying as the crime was, the worst outcome for the perpetrator is that he eliminated the only people on earth who would ever care enough to try and get him treatment.

Posted by: kallisto at December 14, 2012 05:49 PM (jm/9g)

194 CT same place where the Petit doctor had two crackhead home invaders rape, torture and set on fire his wife and daughters..
The left will not let us mourn.

Posted by: yerro at December 14, 2012 05:49 PM (ziNQN)

195
Hey, I have an idea. Why don't we shitcan this "let the nuts run loose until they hit the front page" shit, and go back to the way it used to be: that someone who acted strangely enough was institutionalized? You know, back before 1975, when the Supreme Court in its infinite wisdom made authorities show that someone posed an imminent threat to himself or others?

I don't mean someone who's mildly eccentric, but obviously stark raving mad. We had a nutjob shoot up a school here in SoCal (a few miles away; fortunately no serious casualties); it turned out the cops had been called to his house by neighbors dozens of times for all kinds of weird shit, but ... nothing doing. It was only by God's grace that he didn't kill some young kids, and that wasn't for want of trying.

So if we're going to ban something, how about whackjobs running around loose?

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 14, 2012 05:49 PM (4u2LN)

196 Based on what we know, the only law that would have prevented this would be TOTAL gun bans. The left will go for the jugular here.

He didn't go buy the guys in the heat of the moment. He used guns lawfully obtained, apparently, by someone else.

So, no one can own a gun because someone else might take it and shoot someone. That's where this will go.

Posted by: The Hammer at December 14, 2012 05:49 PM (x9oN6)

197 So the current story is he shot his mom at her home before he went to the school, which I guess would mean the substitute teacher for her probably got shot.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 14, 2012 05:46 PM (n/ubI)
---
That part doesn't add up. Also one of the mothers interviewed said she never heard of the guys mom. Women seem to know the name and identity of every teacher at the school. It's odd to me that a mother with a kid in that school would have never heard of her.

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 05:50 PM (2t6Gz)

198 So libs prolly have their "Free Shit Center" activated?

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 14, 2012 05:50 PM (zpqa2)

199 Women seem to know the name and identity of every teacher at the school. It's odd to me that a mother with a kid in that school would have never heard of her.
Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 05:50 PM (2t6Gz)

Ditto

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:50 PM (jE38p)

200 >>>Turns out my thyroid levels were low and my dipshit doctor should've checked that first before trying to get me to take psych meds and see a shrink. I wasn't tired and depressed all the time because my "depression center" was activated. I was tired and depressed because my immune system had attacked my thyroid gland and it was functioning at a diminished capacity.
Posted by: Flatbush Joe

I had something similar. I got the flu, was sick as a dog for over a month. For a month afterwards I felt terriblely depressed. Saw a psych and then passed out cutting open my head and vomitting all over the place. It seems that I was extremely dehydrated. They infused me with 5 L and I was good to go.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:51 PM (0Ufr+)

201 Just finding out about this here in Vladivostok, Russia, traveling for work.

Serious question, especially for those over 50 or 60: Can we point to a moment in time when certain types of state mental institutions were closed, and parents' abilities to commit their children were curtailed, and these kinds of mass shootings rose in frequency afterwards? Sure, correlation is not causation, but is there even a correlation?

And I'm not saying we should return to that - god knows there were horrific abuses of the old system, at least from what I've read - but in addressing the Strange Young Man question, is there something there?

Seems to me that this is a potentially much more profound discussion of state power than even the gun issue, and I'm honestly not sure where I land on it, which is why I'm curious about any *real* correlation there.

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 05:51 PM (6QYh/)

202 Would having an armed security person -- you know like what you see every day in a bank -- be such an outrageous proposition? The person would have to be trained, pass FBI and state background checks (like teachers), and be such an imposing summabitch that a pussy with a weird disorder would choose another place to manifest their weirdness. Maybe I'm 'out there' but I'd like my family members to come home at night less then bullet-riddled.
Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at December 14, 2012 05:47 PM (feFL6)


-------------------------------------------------


Gun-free zones are nicer. And, besides, what we're teaching the chillren nowdays, guns would upset them.

Posted by: NEA at December 14, 2012 05:51 PM (1CXqI)

203
But if you say that we need to bring back mental hospitals and involuntary commitment, you'll be called a hater.


Just saw this. OK, call me a hater; I'd call me a realist. Nutjobs not only cause these problems, but (IIRC) constitute 3/4ths of the homeless problem too.

Bring back involuntary commitment, now!

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 14, 2012 05:51 PM (4u2LN)

204 As I type this the good MA libs on this MBTA train, who will no doubt go home and agitate to their husbands/wives/significant others for gun control over this incident, have no idea they're protected by messrs. Heckler & Koch.

Posted by: Andy at December 14, 2012 05:52 PM (IyKYr)

205 Friday Afternoon News Dump: Obama Quietly Grants Amnesty To More Than 100K Illegal Immigrants…


Mexicans make up the vast majority of applications, topping 70 percent of those submitted. Next highest is El Salvador with less than 5 percent. South Korea has the largest contingent from outside Latin America at less than 2 percent.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:52 PM (jE38p)

206 I had two co workers at different jobs c/o stomach problems. The doc couldn't find anything wrong with them so told them to see psychs. One did and was put on antidepressants which did not help. Turned out both had appendicitis.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:52 PM (0Ufr+)

207 Such sorrow. Those poor little innocent kids. The only comfort I can find is that those little souls will now be celebrating Christmas with Christ Himself.

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 05:53 PM (BVkEs)

208
Gun free zones are great!

They come with serious penalties if one is caught carrying a gun.

But what's the penalty for someone who brings a gun in a Gun Free Zone, kills dozens, and then kills himself?

yeah, exactly

Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 05:53 PM (G/zuv)

209 Is there anything more annoying than the 24 hr news cycle looping 'We know nothing, more info is coming but now, we got nothing'?

Posted by: sTevo at December 14, 2012 05:53 PM (xtLs1)

210
Can we point to a moment in time when certain types of state mental institutions were closed

Mid 70s. Check out Wikipedia's article on "involuntary institutionalization" for the gory details.

I don't know about the incidence of mass shootings, but the homeless problem definitely dates from then, when the Supreme Court made involuntary institutionalization virtually impossible. A friend was a psychiatric nurse who lost her job when they closed her mental hospital for lack of "customers."

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 14, 2012 05:54 PM (4u2LN)

211 How much longer do I have to wave the bloody microphone? My arm is getting tired.

Posted by: Andrea Mitchell's Lack of Bias at December 14, 2012 05:54 PM (eHIJJ)

212 Mayor Bloomberg is a fucking douchebag.

Posted by: Dr Spank at December 14, 2012 05:54 PM (b+jI9)

213
178...But why go to the school and kill strangers and little kids to boot?

Because he felt that Mommy loved them more that she loved him?
Because Mommy spent more time with them?

I dunno...just guessing.

Posted by: wheatie at December 14, 2012 05:55 PM (K4wCe)

214 "They'll go for gun control in the wake of this atrocity. But if you say that we need to bring back mental hospitals and involuntary commitment, you'll be called a hater."

This.

We don't need gun control. We need nut control.

Gun control wouldn't have saved the life of the citizen in New York who was shoved off the subway platform into the path of an oncoming train last week.

What would have worked? Institutionalizing the schizoid nut who shoved him.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 14, 2012 05:55 PM (ymG7s)

215 CraigPoe - That thought has crossed my mind many, many times today.

Posted by: ErikW on the damned phone at December 14, 2012 05:55 PM (Ek606)

216 And I'm not saying we should return to that - god knows there were horrific abuses of the old system, at least from what I've read - but in addressing the Strange Young Man question, is there something there? Seems to me that this is a potentially much more profound discussion of state power than even the gun issue, and I'm honestly not sure where I land on it, which is why I'm curious about any *real* correlation there.
Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 05:51 PM (6QYh/)


-----------------------------------------------


Yes, I remember those days. And the one thing that could be said about most of it was, the family knows best. It didn't always work, but I'm sure it kept a lot of potential killers out of society.

Posted by: NEA at December 14, 2012 05:55 PM (1CXqI)

217 >>><Twenty dead kids. And this is the informed analysis:the teachers getting more than their fair share of health benefits. Did it ever occur to you that the severely mentally ill, even when diagnosed, don't always take their meds, even with a $0 co-pay?

He said nothing even close to that, so you are banned, either for being an intentional twat or simply being too stupid for us to indulge.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:55 PM (LCRYB)

218 201
Women seem to know the name and identity of every teacher at the school.
It's odd to me that a mother with a kid in that school would have never
heard of her.

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 05:50 PM (2t6Gz)



Ditto

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:50 PM

Did the Mother remarry? Maybe she no longer had her son's last name.

Posted by: Long Island at December 14, 2012 05:55 PM (hl8SI)

219 >>>I was depressed once and went to a psychiatrist. I asked for an explanation of what was going on, scientifically, medically.
This psych MD told me, literally, that the "depression" center of my brain was activated.

Same happened with me. I went because of mood swings and the shrink wanted to play Freud, i.e. "tell me about your mother."

ITS A CHEMICAL IMBALANCE PROBLEM NOT MOMMY ISSUES, IDIOT.

Fuckin' shrinks.

Thank you.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at December 14, 2012 05:55 PM (zJ/hL)

220 >>>I noticed him wiping tears in the wrong part of his eyes too.

Oh I get AP Radio news on Sirius. I burst out laughing when they said during his remarks the Presidents eyes "Glistened"

I sh*t you not. Those ass clowns wanted a tear so bad they imagined and reported "glistening".

Hey President Apathy.

You just failed the witch test.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 05:56 PM (0q2P7)

221 Damn, all you people have doctors willing to dish out the meds. I can't even get some Oxy for my shoulders so I can sleep at night. Maybe I should say I'm depressed. I only get about 3 hours sleep a night at the most.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 05:56 PM (ulzt7)

222 It's tough for docs. Psychosomatic aches and pains really are a symptom of depression for many people. Especially those from cultures where admitting depression or mental illness is verboten and a sign of weakness.

So docs deal a lot with depressed people who refuse to admit they are depressed and instead chase ever more obscure diseases.

But this is so common it leads them to jump to that conclusion and miss obvious other causes.

The two kinds of patients I hear docs bitch about the most are 1) drug-seekers and 2) depressed hypochondriacs.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 05:56 PM (ZPrif)

223 A mentally-ill 20-something killed his father with a hammer 5 blocks from me a couple months ago. He had been in mental hospital, but got to the point where they had to release him. There apparently is a limbo area where you can't be arrested and you can't be in an institution. He was diagnosed schizo but made no difference.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 14, 2012 05:56 PM (zpqa2)

224 Somebody needs to tell Obama that his tear ducts are in his eyes, next to his nose...

Posted by: Douglass at December 14, 2012 05:56 PM (Vi1ue)

225 197 Based on what we know, the only law that would have prevented this would be TOTAL gun bans. The left will go for the jugular here.

Posted by: The Hammer at December 14, 2012 05:49 PM (x9oN6)


And gasoline, ingredients for improvised explosives, cars and other vehicles, and all sharp and blunt objects.

And hands and feet. Better yet, just imprison everyone at birth.

That's not to say nothing can ever be done, but bans are generally a political "blunt instrument" used ineffectively from a position of ignorance.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 05:57 PM (bxiXv)

226 Frum's so worthless. He won't accept lectures? What was his original tweet? Something about arming toddlers so that they can defend themselves? What a worthless assbag. Who enabled the shooting?

Posted by: Cheri at December 14, 2012 05:57 PM (G+Wff)

227 Who wrote that article? Schrödinger?

Well played, you even caught me, who should damn well know better.

Disregard that odious odor coming from my box.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at December 14, 2012 05:57 PM (feFL6)

228 Incidentally, if Drudge is accurate, Ryan Lanza is well and truly fucked. Maybe George Zimmerman can help him with hideouts. Fucking Media.

Posted by: tubal at December 14, 2012 05:57 PM (BoE3Z)

229 God Facebook is horrible tonight. The me-too pontificating and mewling is unbearable.

Posted by: arminius at December 14, 2012 05:57 PM (cDnhR)

230 Did the Mother remarry? Maybe she no longer had her son's last name.
Posted by: Long Island at December 14, 2012 05:55 PM (hl8SI)


Good point, but since their was no husband in that house, more likely she might have taken her maiden name back

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:58 PM (jE38p)

231 I toured Chicago State in 1968 as part of a class. We were told that they had developed and were continuing to develop new drugs which would allow people to be treated as outpatients. This was and is true. But not all drugs work for everyone and not all drugs continue to work. Plus, people with mental illness also have social problems and may not be able to live on their own or even with family. The problems were pretty complicated. But, I have to tell you those large psych hospitals were true hell holes.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 05:58 PM (0Ufr+)

232 In the same article it is reported that the murder's mother is both dead in her classroom and at her home.


Posted by: Long Island at December 14, 2012 05:47 PM (hl8SI)

Schrödingers vic.

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 14, 2012 05:58 PM (AWmfW)

233 Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 05:51 PM (6QYh/)

There were a series of court cases from the seventies culminating with the United States Supreme Court in the eighties that severely curtailed the state's power to involuntarily commit anyone. (It is a frequent;y heard libel of Reagan that he closed the mental hospitals to save money. That's not true. It was the USSC.) The current rule is that to involuntarily hold someone for mental illness, it must be proved that they are an imminent threat to themselves or others. And imminent means right now. "He's violently crazy and will one day hurt someone" is not good enough.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 05:58 PM (Hx5uv)

234 >>>is there something there? Seems to me that this is a potentially much more profound discussion of state power than even the gun issue, and I'm honestly not sure where I land on it, which is why I'm curious about any *real* correlation there.

it's a zero sum game, we either win/lose or lose/win.

I don't think it's a good idea for the state to begin investigating people for odd behavior.

Liberals seem to think this is crazy (and I think I know why) but honestly, if there had been one gun in the school, in a safe, with a two-key lock, and several people required by law to train with a gun several times per year for just these emergency situations, the guy would have been dead by the fourth or fifth victim.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:58 PM (LCRYB)

235 In other words, this "could not afford necessary mentals meds" proposition is most likely just utter left-wing bullshit.

And the people who spew that left-wing bullshit also believe that people who are so mentally ill they think shooting up a room full of five-year-olds is going to fix whatever problem they have with the world a) have a right to refuse to take the medications; and b) have a right to move freely about society while refusing to take the medications.

So Tinydick-with-an-organic-disorder goes to this magical free mental health where miracle substances are dispensed free of charge--and they work perfectly! Because in Happy Proggy Land all brains work as the state intends when a magic chemical (which just EXISTS, it's not like an Evil Pharmaceutical Corporation spent years and millions of dollars developing it or anything, because we punished all them with an excise tax for being evil and corporate) is introduced!--and after a month decides he doesn't like the side effects and stops going to get his free magic chemicals. And he can't be forced to take them, and he can go anywhere he wants, because it would be cruel and oppressive to keep him from being a threat to five-year-old kids.

Yeah, if only we greedy rich bastards were just demanding some government agency spend more money on magic fairy chemicals that may or may not work--if they're even taken at all--everything will be different.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 05:59 PM (/kI1Q)

236 In 1966, Texas University tower shooter Charles Whitman killed his wife and mother before killing 13 others in a sniper attack. Apparently he wanted to spare them of living the shame of what he was going to do.

In notes he left, Whitman also requested that an autopsy include his brain, as he felt that it might give the investigators answers to why he did what he did

A malignant brain tumor was found in Whitman's brain

Posted by: kbdabear at December 14, 2012 05:59 PM (wwsoB)

237 I noticed him wiping tears in the wrong part of his eyes too.
----
For some reason his tears travel up, and out the top corner.

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 05:59 PM (2t6Gz)

238 I'd be for an armed guard at every school. If course we'll have to take the money out of the teacher's budget to do it. Hey, don't shoot the messenger. Armed teachersare good too.
I wonder if some asshole came in and started shooting if I could get a round off before I shit myself.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 05:59 PM (ulzt7)

239 Ugh....Blumenthal has gotten his face in front of the cameras. God....friggin' attention whore.

Posted by: Tami at December 14, 2012 05:59 PM (X6akg)

240 CT Gov Blumenthal at podium. Is he gonna say how all this blood reminds him of his days in Vietnam?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:59 PM (jE38p)

241 "Did it ever occur to you that the severely mentally ill, even when
diagnosed, don't always take their meds, even with a $0 co-pay?"

That wasn't the argument I refuted.

The argument I refuted was the idea that this specific shooting could, or might, have been caused by the shooter _not being able to afford_ psych meds. Which turns out to be extremely unlikely at best given his personal circumstances.

If you want to caricature a position, at least caricature the one I actually voiced. Thanks.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 14, 2012 06:00 PM (ymG7s)

242 What do you do about Strange Young Men? The state can attempt an intervention,

But if you say that we need to bring back mental hospitals and involuntary commitment, you'll be called a hater.
State mental institutions are still in operation, in PA one facility serves five counties when in the past there were three for that purpose. They're not going to build and staff new mental hospitals because of the cost factor. And involuntary commitment still does occur, it's called a "302" here.
In PA, the state (law enforcement or medical authorities) will only 302 an individual if he is a clear and present danger to himself and/or others. Once a sick person has been committed to psychiatric care, there is no guarantee that the prescribed follow-up treatment plan will be enacted or enforced.
Those suffering mental illness live in a twilight world that sometimes degenerates into a nightmare. I have seen the face of one so afflicted after he realized hecommitted a crime nowhere near the violence and magnitude of this CT school killing. It is a face of devastation and mortification and shock and disbelief, and yet he cannot deny the fact that he is incarcerated or that the newspapers published detailed accounts of the incident. He has to admit he really did hurt someone.

So he slips back into the twilight because the pain and realization of the nightmare occurrence is too great. There is no cure, there is only management of the disease. The families of these people have to remain ever vigilant. The nightmare is not limited to the sick person, even in the best of scenarios. When the untreated illness spills out into the world at large the spotlight is suddenly on what to do with mental people and/or their weapons.

There is no cure, only management. And a sick person on a mission will find a way to kill and/or maim if that is the imperative demanded by their obsession. They don't need firearms.

Posted by: kallisto at December 14, 2012 06:00 PM (jm/9g)

243
But not all drugs work for everyone and not all drugs continue to work


And that's assuming that people take them. Many psychiatric patients don't want to take their drugs (my psych nurse friend told me), because they don't like the way the drugs make them feel. They had to be watched to make sure they really did take them.

Of course, once they're out on the street, all bets are off.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 14, 2012 06:00 PM (4u2LN)

244 It's right about here that I remind everyone of the Glen Close commercial that states 1 out of 6 Americans has some sort of mental problem.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 06:00 PM (yiIja)

245 Some OT levity, courtesty of Captain Hate in the earlier thread:

166 The Iron Sheik ‏@the_ironsheik

the @RobParkerESPN Rob Parker you
have smallest black dick in the world you talk bullshit about the RG3
you dont know how to talk on the TV


--Iron Sheik FTW

Posted by: logprof at December 14, 2012 06:01 PM (LMgaP)

246 So what could come of this is we take away all guns and the State locks up anyone they deem a threat. Did I miss anything? This reminds me of some other place, but I can't quite place it.

Posted by: tubal at December 14, 2012 06:01 PM (BoE3Z)

247 Who enabled the shooting?

James Madison.

Posted by: fluffy at December 14, 2012 06:01 PM (3SvjA)

248 240
CT Gov Blumenthal at podium. Is he gonna say how all this blood reminds him of his days in Vietnam?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:59 PM (jE38p)

Gov. Mallory....Senator Blumenthal...

Posted by: Tami at December 14, 2012 06:01 PM (X6akg)

249 Skeletor always needs to be in the picture.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 06:01 PM (ulzt7)

250 >>>Somebody needs to tell Obama that his tear ducts are in his eyes, next to his nose...

I've got one better. Just go out and first thing, wipe your eyes, with fingers you rubbed then wiped off daves insanity. You'll be producing convincing tears with red-eye to boot in no time. Just make sure to wash your hands BEFORE you go to the bathroom.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 06:01 PM (0q2P7)

251 Did the Mother remarry? Maybe she no longer had her son's last name.
Posted by: Long Island at December 14, 2012 05:55 PM (hl8SI)


Good point, but since their was no husband in that house, more likely she might have taken her maiden name back
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 05:58 PM (jE38p)
---
My ex would have known that info already. I'm pretty sure she can name every teacher in the district. I can't name any, even with a gun to my head. Couldn't name one 5 minutes after meeting them.

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 06:01 PM (2t6Gz)

252 Knew a psych doc (friend of my doc friend) who used to work for the state. His job was to go to paranoid schizo's (who'd been released from prison!) houses and make sure they were taking their meds in compliance with their parole.

How happy do you think the paranoid schizo who stopped taking his meds is to see government doctor knocking on his door?

Guy didn't last a year in the job. Too stressful.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 06:01 PM (ZPrif)

253 Gov. Mallory....Senator Blumenthal...
Posted by: Tami at December 14, 2012 06:01 PM (X6akg)


Yeah I know, my bad. Thanks for correcting that

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 06:01 PM (jE38p)

254 And if we didn't have a retard for a Governor

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 06:02 PM (ulzt7)

255 Did SCOAMF use his middle finger to wipe his eye?

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 06:03 PM (ulzt7)

256 201 Just finding out about this here in Vladivostok, Russia, traveling for work.

Be safe, speaking of places in the world that are not always 100% calm.

And I'm not saying we should return to that - god knows there were horrific abuses of the old system, at least from what I've read - but in addressing the Strange Young Man question, is there something there?

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 05:51 PM (6QYh/)


I think there is *something* there, but basically humans are really bad at dealing with uncomfortable problems.

We warehouse problems, or apply blunt force, or ignore them. That basically was the solution both before *and* after the "mental health revolution."

I don't have the answers but one of the answers is "sunlight." If we do have "institutions" like that in the future they need massive oversight, but that means people have to be adult about the realities of mental illness - and I'm not confident that will happen.

Maybe someday.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 06:03 PM (bxiXv)

257 This is going to sound liberal so don't jump on me but while state psychiatric facilities exist they are (as I understand it) underfunded and hellhole-ish.

Private care is expensive.

I think what might be happening (guessing) is that families (which could be expected to play the Benevolent Snitch in these situations) are avoiding bringing their crazy-ish sons and daughters to state attention, because it's just a bad outcome. Better to just hope nothing bad happens.

That's a guess. But as I understand it, people seem to think the state facilities are barbaric and private care would bankrupt most.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:03 PM (LCRYB)

258 For some reason his tears travel up, and out the top corner.

That's normal on his home planet. Speciesist.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 06:03 PM (/kI1Q)

259 When you ask the coroner to figure out why you did what you did, it implies that you have the power of self-awareness, which should give you the capacity to implement free will and resist urges. I feel the urge to shit myself but don't submit like I'm an automaton.

The same with this monster. Why do we assume that shooters in the "autistic spectrum" are devoid of self-awareness and control? Is it a new thing?

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at December 14, 2012 06:03 PM (Ec6wH)

260 WTF was the point of that presser?

Posted by: Tami at December 14, 2012 06:03 PM (X6akg)

261 Who got banned? I miss all the good stuff. Was it me?

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 06:03 PM (0Ufr+)

262 I know that a lot of men mostly younger don't want to take their psych meds as so many of them can cause sexual dysfuntion.

Posted by: Cheri at December 14, 2012 06:04 PM (G+Wff)

263 Just saw this. OK, call me a hater; I'd call me a
realist. Nutjobs not only cause these problems, but (IIRC) constitute
3/4ths of the homeless problem too.

Bring back involuntary commitment, now!

---
Tricky issue. The fine folks in the USSR used involuntary commitments to mental hospitals to rid themselves of political dissenters. The left hates us with the heat of a thousand suns. I could see Obama stooping to this.


Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 06:04 PM (Hx5uv)

264 That's our Governor. Never making any sense, but still needs to have his mug on the TV. Kinda like our dear leader.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 06:05 PM (ulzt7)

265 @NEA - thanks for your reply. @Jay - you too. I scanned the article.

I remember being young and ADHD, they said. My brain just went really fast and I couldn't sit still. I'd complete tasks way before everyone else and then be restless. In junior high I got in a lot of fights and had a few incidents where I would just rage for seemingly no reason. Normal teenage BS or Something Wrong? My parents didn't know and were scared, had me tested for all kinds of stuff, even considered sending me away somewhere...it took 3 years, but by the time I was 19 I was mostly past it. Now it all seems like a bad dream. The only remnant: I'm still very "detail-oriented".

I love my parents dearly. They did the best they could. But I have serious reservations about parents, backed by the power of the state, to be able to commit "problem kids". Sure, there's a BIG difference between what I just described and what we have here, but to a confused and emotional parent, how much of one? And who makes the call - a judge?

So I guess I just found out where I land on it, pending more info.

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:05 PM (6QYh/)

266 Someone needs to add up all the crimes that where committed today and think would one more law really stop it. It could easily be in the 200+ count with all the current gun laws and restrictions but just that one more ban is all that is needed to stop crazy people or something.

Posted by: Trevor (@tjexcite) at December 14, 2012 06:06 PM (Ea64Y)

267 It used to be embarrassing going to the office to pick up my kid early on the rare occasion. The first question - who is her teacher? Uhh, no clue. Then some other lady behind the desk would know my kid and her teacher at that time of day.

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 06:06 PM (2t6Gz)

268
262I know that a lot of men mostly younger don't want to take their psych meds as so many of them can cause sexual dysfuntion.

Posted by: Cheri at December 14, 2012 06:04 PM (G+Wff)

----------

Well, I hope you're not dating these guys.

Posted by: wheatie at December 14, 2012 06:06 PM (K4wCe)

269 Mainly they don't take their meds cause they often aren't thinking clearly even when on them. So they start feeling better and decide they don't need them.
Or they get the stomach flu and decide the meds must have cause it. They don't want to take them. it's like admitting you are broken. So they look for reasons not to.
And sometimes they just forget.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 06:07 PM (ZPrif)

270 You ever notice that a liberal administration in any State always has the most unruly, unclassy looking group of officials. It's like they couldn't be bothered to put a suit on or comb their hair.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 06:07 PM (ulzt7)

271 Bring back involuntary commitment, now!

---
Tricky issue. The fine folks in the USSR used involuntary commitments to mental hospitals to rid themselves of political dissenters. The left hates us with the heat of a thousand suns. I could see Obama stooping to this.


Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 06:04 PM (Hx5uv)
Yeah, I thought about that, but let's face it, the Left could and would misuse any form of government authority if they could get away with it. That fact does not really militate against the use of government authority in some circumstances, this being one of them.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 14, 2012 06:07 PM (4u2LN)

272 By the way, I myself have had the experience of trying to get someone severely psychiatrically dysfunctional to be admitted on a short-term observational hold, involuntarily.

It's like pulling teeth. Your own teeth. Without anesthesia. Or dental tools. Or tools of any sort.

Incredibly to me, this argument carries absolutely no water with cops and courts:

"This individual is a danger to himself. We don't care about that. It's his life to lose at his discretion. What we care about is that his behavior also makes him a significant potential DANGER TO OTHERS."

You can say that, in those words, and watch absolutely nothing happen.

Closing the institutions didn't make mentally ill people healthy again. Giving mentally ill people an entirely invented constitutional "right" to refuse treatment didn't make those mentally ill people healthy again. All that these measures accomplished was to make the public streets and sidewalks into one big open-air lunatic asylum.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 14, 2012 06:07 PM (ymG7s)

273 > God Facebook is horrible tonight. The me-too pontificating and mewling is unbearable.

WTF are you friends with liberal gasbags?

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at December 14, 2012 06:08 PM (K1JW0)

274 Worked with a nutjob about 10 years ago. She was bi-polar and didn't like taking her meds. She was off the wall nuts so we had to get rid of her. A few years later while her kids were at school, she hung herself in the garage. Her kids found her when they came home from school. Bitch.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 06:08 PM (ulzt7)

275
Mainly they don't take their meds cause they often aren't thinking clearly even when on them. So they start feeling better and decide they don't need them.


I've also read that they don't like the emotional flattening that occurs on the meds. This is apparently especially true of manic depressives, who live for the manic highs.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 14, 2012 06:08 PM (4u2LN)

276 It's right about here that I remind everyone of the Glen Close commercial that states 1 out of 6 Americans has some sort of mental problem.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 06:00 PM (yiIja)


--------------------------------------------------


Hmmmm. *suspiciously looks right and left at fellow morons*

Posted by: NEA at December 14, 2012 06:09 PM (1CXqI)

277 I've got this sickening feeling that SCOAMF is gonna milk this like a friggin Guernsey.

Posted by: ontherocks at December 14, 2012 06:09 PM (aZ6ew)

278 >>>That fact does not really militate against the use of government authority in some circumstances, this being one of them.

Unless someone has committed a crime, under what basis do you believe that you can indefinitely confine them against there will?

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 06:09 PM (0q2P7)

279 It used to be embarrassing going to the office to pick up my kid early on the rare occasion. The first question - who is her teacher? Uhh, no clue. Then some other lady behind the desk would know my kid and her teacher at that time of day.
Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 06:06 PM (2t6Gz)

Well back in the day, some of my kids elementary school teachers were kinda cute. But I guess to answer who is your daughter's teacher with " the brunette with the nice ass" isn't proper?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 06:09 PM (jE38p)

280

Before these shooters pick up a gun...and go shoot people...they have to first have 'The Idea' of going out and doing such a thing.

So I ask:
Where do these shooters get 'The Idea' of going out and shooting people on a mass scale?

Posted by: wheatie at December 14, 2012 06:09 PM (K4wCe)

281 " 17 Everything is political with the left. Exploiting tragedies just underscores their cravenness."

Wasn't that just what the Obama administration accused Romney explioting? Taking political advantage of a tragedy with his criticisms on the US response to the attacks on the embassies in Egypt and Benghazi?

























'

Posted by: I'd rather be surfin at December 14, 2012 06:10 PM (OTWsz)

282 We know that Lanza was neither registered as a Republican nor a Tea Party member because the MSM would have headlined that by now

Posted by: kbdabear at December 14, 2012 06:11 PM (wwsoB)

283 Well back in the day, some of my kids elementary school teachers were kinda cute. But I guess to answer who is your daughter's teacher with " the brunette with the nice ass" isn't proper?
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 06:09 PM (jE38p)
---
LOL - thats actually how I identify them. Whos the teacher - uh, the one I'd like to bend over the desk (in my inside voice).

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 06:11 PM (2t6Gz)

284
It's right about here that I remind everyone of the Glen Close commercial that states 1 out of 6 Americans has some sort of mental problem.


I thought the figure was around 52%.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 14, 2012 06:11 PM (4u2LN)

285 That's a guess. But as I understand it, people seem to think the state facilities are barbaric and private care would bankrupt most.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:03 PM (LCRYB)


I don't think that necessarily "sounds liberal," it's just a very real very hard very uncomfortable problem. Also that being committed legally screws up the rest of your life, and even association with the field in a non-committal basis can screw up your reputation.

And back to your point, it's hugely expensive. A very rich society can take care of more people who need help, but some people thought it was unfair that we were a rich society, so they endeavored to make sure that we wouldn't be rich anymore, and *here we are*.

One of the biggest ironies of the modern era is the mass of people demanding services are almost exactly the same mass of people demanding fiscal policies that ensure we can't afford to pay for those services.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 06:12 PM (bxiXv)

286 if there had been one gun in the school, in a safe, with a two-key
lock, and several people required by law to train with a gun several
times per year for just these emergency situations, the guy would have
been dead by the fourth or fifth victim.

I don't know that this would be true in this particular event. In Columbine and VT, where the killer stalked from room to room, an armed individual would have had a profound effect on the overall death toll. But here, reports seem to indicate that this went down very quickly and in a small area.

I know you're just spitballing, but I don't think the idea of a double key access system would work either. First, you need to get both of those individuals to the same place at the same time, which could mean leaving students unattended if one of the two is a teacher. Second, you need to recruit people willing to leave shelter to travel to that location. Even with training, it's hard to imagine that a teacher would be willing or able to do so.


Posted by: Xander Crews at December 14, 2012 06:13 PM (24UOj)

287 Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:05 PM (6QYh/)
___
One of the reasons that it's so difficult to involuntarily commit people now is because as late as the early 1970s, "inconvenient" family members were being shuttered away. Usually it was a husband who wanted to get his wife out of the house.

It happened to my ex-boyfriend's mom. His old man had enough influence and standing in the community, he was able to easily get ex's mom put away. At least he got her into a better facility than a state hospital. In any case, it wasn't long into her confinement that a doctor realized she was not mental, and he released her.

That's the kind of shit that used to go down. And we all know about the Kennedy daughter that was lobotomized for no good reason.

Posted by: kallisto at December 14, 2012 06:13 PM (jm/9g)

288 The idea? George Lucas made a movie where the ultimate evil darklord, Darth Vader, killed a school of jedi "younglings". That was the big turn in Revenge of the Sith, right?

That's the only move I can think of off-hand that basically has that as a major scene.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 06:13 PM (ZPrif)

289 Well, I hope you're not dating these guys.
Posted by: wheatie

No Ma'am. I had a family member who was diagnosed bi-polar and stopped taking his meds because of this.As he gets older (45) it is starting to really get weird.He thinks he can levitate and read minds, talks 100 mph, etc.

Posted by: Cheri at December 14, 2012 06:13 PM (G+Wff)

290 Frum's really gone the typical media Republican "all who disagree with me are rubes" route since Obama was first elected huh

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 06:13 PM (60GaT)

291 > So I ask:
Where do these shooters get 'The Idea' of going out and shooting people on a mass scale?

Both this guy and the Oregon mall shooter apparently posted beforehand on 4chan. That place is the antisocial cesspool of the internet.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at December 14, 2012 06:14 PM (K1JW0)

292 257 I can say from experience that this frequently the case.

Posted by: Lazarus at December 14, 2012 06:14 PM (q4ggw)

293
>>WTF are you friends with liberal gasbags?

It's not just friends, it's a lot of bands and record labels and stuff like that. If you like any good music, you are going to get lefties by the bucketload. And the fact is, if you want to have friends you just have to deal with the political crap they believe. I've had people unfriend me over politics but never the reverse. Like a lot of conservatives I just don't think it is as important to be "pure" as the left side seems to.

Posted by: arminius at December 14, 2012 06:14 PM (cDnhR)

294 Michael Moore posits than Republicans are evil and more controlling laws are needed. That's crazy talk, that's what that is. Lock him up!

What? You mean the wrong people might turn the tables on you? That's crazy talk, that's what that is.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at December 14, 2012 06:15 PM (eHIJJ)

295
Where do these shooters get 'The Idea' of going out and shooting people on a mass scale?

TV, the movies, video games, music, you could pick a bunch of stuff. It'll be interesting to find out if the shooter had an affinity for anything violent.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 06:15 PM (yiIja)

296 @gretawire
Latest on the killer (notes below from FNC’s Rick Leventhal): Subject: UPDATE Just been given this info from my ... http://bit.ly/SqTPo5

Posted by: Y-not at December 14, 2012 06:15 PM (5H6zj)

297 speaking of psychos

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 06:15 PM (ZPrif)

298 Where do these shooters get 'The Idea' of going out and shooting people on a mass scale?

Where do people get The Idea of going out and building skyscrapers, or writing phone apps, or mixing that thing that came out of the chicken's butt with some fines herbes?


In 400 years, people are going to look back at what we know about the human brain like we look at what people knew about electricity in 1611. And there's probably some stuff about consciousness that can never be known.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 06:15 PM (/kI1Q)

299 >>>That's the kind of shit that used to go down. And we all know about the
Kennedy daughter that was lobotomized for no good reason.

She was lobotomized to try and change her personality, from while not fully functional at least amicable and easy to be around. Yeah that's the great dynasty, cutting up the brain of their kid not to "make her better" but to make her better to be around. It failed.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 06:16 PM (0q2P7)

300
We know that Lanza was neither registered as a Republican nor a Tea
Party member because the MSM would have headlined that by now



Posted by: Kbdabear at December 14, 2012 06:11 PM (wwsoB)


If his mother was a school teacher, odds are he was a Democrat. (If he was registered at all. ) It also tends to explain the lunacy. I've talked to many true believer Democrats, and they all struck me as needing commitment to a psych ward.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:17 PM (bb5+k)

301 That update from Greta reports that he woke up today in CT, shot his mom, then went to school.

His dad is alive.

Posted by: Y-not at December 14, 2012 06:17 PM (5H6zj)

302 My wife teaches in a Middle School. The school is pretty much ghetto. There is a uniformed officer in there every day. And he's packing. There have been zero shootings and I swear it's because of the guy packing. Cause it's a jungle in that particular community. Shootings are recreational.

Posted by: tubal at December 14, 2012 06:17 PM (BoE3Z)

303 I don't deserve to be silenced.

We don't deserve to be annoyed.

Posted by: fluffy at December 14, 2012 06:17 PM (3SvjA)

304 131 Big Bang was pretty good last nigh, where Sheldon learns the true meaning of Christmas.

----------

I didn't realize the true meaning of Christmas was "don't piss of Santa Claus".

Posted by: Citizen Anachronda at December 14, 2012 06:17 PM (xGZ+b)

305 >>>One of the reasons that it's so difficult to involuntarily commit people now is because as late as the early 1970s, "inconvenient" family members were being shuttered away. Usually it was a husband who wanted to get his wife out of the house.

And thus the Kennedys contiinue ruining everything.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:18 PM (LCRYB)

306 >>Liberals seem to think this is crazy (and I think I know why) but honestly, if there had been one gun in the school, in a safe, with a two-key lock, and several people required by law to train with a gun several times per year for just these emergency situations, the guy would have been dead by the fourth or fifth victim.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 05:58 PM (LCRYB)

In the perfect execution of what you described, sure. But potential problems with this scenario is a) potential for abuse by the keyholders (who gets to decide who those people are? the school board?) and b) what happens if the folks with the keys and the guns botch it, with kids in the crossfire? Imagine the rules of engagement for such an incident. I know common sense screams "Well, if there a mad gunman it's bleeding obvious!" but it could turn into one of those things where it's "break glass in case of emergency" and then people start coming up with their own definitions of emergency.

I'm not reflexively against it, especially in remote areas, but that would have to be one seriously regulated system.

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:18 PM (6QYh/)

307 There's a man in a smelly flannel shirt sitting on the computer next to
me. He's currently visiting this site and typing frantically. I just
wanted to let you know that he doesn't seem well. After he finishes typing he begins masturbating furiously. He's posting under the name Dream Avenger. He may be homeless, he doesn't seem to have bathed in weeks.

Posted by: Little old lady in the library at December 14, 2012 06:19 PM (/YJYi)

308 Where the fuck were you, Jehovah? Jesus? Allah? Gonesh? Where the fuck were you? It's all a lie. A fucking lie, and now 20 faultless perfect innocent love-creators are gone. That's all they did...love and get loved. And now they're dead. Well done, benevolent God. I'm so fucking pissed right now I can't see straight.

Posted by: . at December 14, 2012 06:19 PM (Q8Wa9)

309 <i>Where do these shooters get 'The Idea' of going out and shooting people on a mass scale?</I>

Just listen to the words of death metal-grindcore-screamo...it's not suicidal anymore, it's murderous. Geez Let the Bodies Hit the Floor came out 11 years ago already. It still goes on.

I don't mean the lyrics cause the violence, but shows what kind of crap appeals to young fucked up guys, who like Ace says aspire to Evil!11! as their Holy Grail. They fantasize of killing, and think because it occurred to them then they must be special - and no one knows...YET!

Posted by: jeanne at December 14, 2012 06:19 PM (GdalM)

310
Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:03 PM (LCRYB)

Ace,
I'm going to try to throw some light on this using the 2/3rds of a fancy degree I have, and you can take it as you wish.
In-patient psych care tends to be expensive. Consider it's got all the built in costs of in patient nursing home care, (which is already expensive) plus usually psych patients can be harder to control than your average 85 year old, meaning more staff to ensure the safety of the patient and the staff.
Having said that, attempts at State run facilities (which tend to operate on shoestring budgets) have failed for a variety of reasons. When times are tough everyone cuts the psych facility budget first, leading to staffing issues, etc.
Never mind the power imbalance. Just look at the Willobrook case.
I doubt this is something we're going to merely legislate our way out of. But having said that we have to consider that allowing the crazy people to wander the streets is not good in the long run.

Posted by: tsrblke (Away) at December 14, 2012 06:19 PM (GaqMa)

311
I thought the figure was around 52%.

I stand sit corrected.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 06:19 PM (yiIja)

312 kallisto: "That's the kind of shit that used to go down. And we
all know about the Kennedy daughter that was lobotomized for no good
reason."


Yes. Poor Caroline. And before she ran for office. What unfortunate timing.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at December 14, 2012 06:20 PM (eHIJJ)

313 So the man totally without a conscience, the Gun Running Merchant Of
Death, Obama, who sent thousands upon thousands of guns (mainly assault
weapons) to Mexican drug gangs, getting hundreds, if not thousands, and
that’s so far, of men, women and children, including toddlers, brutally
shot to death expects us to now believe he is heartbroken over the
shooting deaths of a small fraction of that number? Who could possibly
be stupid enough to believe this?

Posted by: FeralCat at December 14, 2012 06:20 PM (cY9nU)

314 But, according to a person on my FB page, we shouldn't be passing judgement on the shooter. "He thought he had his reasons".

(In case you're wondering, it was an immediate "de-friend" on my part.)

Posted by: Soona at December 14, 2012 06:20 PM (1CXqI)

315 Shooters mother was a teachers aide and not a teacher at the school, per ABC.

Posted by: Douglass at December 14, 2012 06:20 PM (Vi1ue)

316 if there had been one gun in the school, in a safe, with a two-key
lock, and several people required by law to train with a gun several
times per year for just these emergency situations, the guy would have

been dead by the fourth or fifth victim.


We don't know that. In fact, it's unlikely.

It wouldn't take long to kill a bunch of defenseless kindergarten kids trapped in a classroom.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 14, 2012 06:21 PM (SY2Kh)

317 There are no easy answers here. I know we all come here and give our two cents, but at the end of the day, there really was no way to prevent this. Sadly, we will be at that place where every school, not just high schools, will have metal detectors, any and all vistors will be frisked and there will be armed guards in every school in America.

Posted by: jewells45 at December 14, 2012 06:21 PM (u25eL)

318 >>>Well done, benevolent God.

We rejected a world without strife.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 06:21 PM (0q2P7)

319 Involuntary commitment is not tricky. Hitler had a mustache, but that doesn't mean everyone who has a mustache is a genocidal maniac.

My sister is MI and has been hospitalized several times. She is on disability so they are not privately funded rooms. They're fine, and have always brought her back to functional, and she attends the local clinic for checkups and meds. She's compliant, so that's great.

Sometimes the MI are not compliant. We had a student at local state U who was clearly insane. The health center said he was, the campus police knew he was. He was missing one project or he could graduate. His teacher wouldn't pass him and the dean didn't have the guts to tell him to do it. The dean didn't even tell the receptionist to watch out for him!! He was afraid of offending the teacher. My opinion was, give him the effing diploma and get him out of here!

So lots goes unreported until it's too late. Look up Laura's Law for a new approach. The counties however are afraid of being sued as promised by the advocates (with taxpayer grants) so none have even tried it.

Posted by: PJ at December 14, 2012 06:21 PM (ZWaLo)

320 Last time I checked autism or its related afflictions isn't something that would lead to commitment in a mental facility.

This personality disorder thing that is mentioned...what is it? I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 14, 2012 06:21 PM (BuSM8)

321 I blame Ozzy.

Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 06:22 PM (bGwJy)

322 293 -

I had to unfriend a guy who runs a small record label recently. I love his music, and he supports any number of acts who wouldn't have a place to go if it wasn't for him.

He's a capitalist in every sense of the word, except one. He thinks everyone on "the right" is evil.

I don't fault people for being too stupid to realize their lives and their beliefs are incompatible. That's their problem, not mine.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 14, 2012 06:22 PM (BeSEI)

323 We have a place for socially awkward people who cannot function in society.

It is called mathematics.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:22 PM (b65cm)

324 Where the fuck were you, Jehovah? Jesus? Allah? Gonesh? Where the fuck
were you? It's all a lie. A fucking lie, and now 20 faultless perfect
innocent love-creators are gone. That's all they did...love and get
loved. And now they're dead. Well done, benevolent God. I'm so fucking
pissed right now I can't see straight.

---

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it wasn't God who was wielding the guns.

I'm going to go further out and say that I'm not sure more atheism would have helped.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 06:23 PM (Hx5uv)

325 Posted by: . at December 14, 2012 06:19 PM (Q8Wa9)

----

You mad bro? Ask God for peace.

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 06:23 PM (BVkEs)

326 Where the fuck were you, Jehovah? Jesus? Allah? Gonesh? Where the fuck were you? It's all a lie. A fucking lie, and now 20 faultless perfect innocent love-creators are gone. That's all they did...love and get loved. And now they're dead. Well done, benevolent God. I'm so fucking pissed right now I can't see straight.
Posted by: . at December 14, 2012 06:19 PM (Q8Wa9)


--------------------------------------------


Sounds like you need to go see your fortune-teller. And don't forget your crystal.

Posted by: Soona at December 14, 2012 06:24 PM (1CXqI)

327 I'm not reflexively against it, especially in remote areas, but that would have to be one seriously regulated system.

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:18 PM (6QYh/)


Pilots.

Serious training for one (maybe two for large schools) person who carries on the job. Your usual background / profile things. Concealed, retention holsters, has a radio/headset on person to call police, etc.

Optional, because let's face it, as horrible as this kind of thing is, it's also rare. But available.

Note that civilians who carry guns in public are massively safer *by their actual record* than gun-free zone schools.

But, as I said before, people don't like dealing with uncomfortable things. The unwillingness to think practically about what can be done means we usually spend most of our energy on sweeping, ineffectual solutions, again and again.

Frankly, mass-murder can't be any more illegal than it is.

And even an armed teacher probably can't stop a vehicle / fuel / bomb attack.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 06:24 PM (bxiXv)

328 My idiot brother in law is on a rant on facebook about guns. That's not surprising given he's an idiot. What is surprising is how he is being bitch slapped by pretty much everyone who is commenting.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 14, 2012 06:24 PM (HDgX3)

329 I'm not reflexively against it, especially in remote areas, but that would have to be one seriously regulated system.

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:18 PM (6QYh/)

I would suggest a better method is to teach people the difference between right and wrong. We used to have a national standard for Morality. Not so much nowadays.

"The use of force alone is but temporary. It may subdue for a
moment; but it does not remove the necessity of subduing again: and a
nation is not governed, which is perpetually to be conquered."
-Edmund Burke-

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:24 PM (bb5+k)

330 325
Posted by: . at December 14, 2012 06:19 PM (Q8Wa9)
---
You mad bro? Ask God for peace.


Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 06:23 PM (BVkEs)When all else fails, blame someone you don't believe in. Logic.

Posted by: tubal at December 14, 2012 06:25 PM (BoE3Z)

331
In 400 years, people are going to look back at what we know about the human brain like we look at what people knew about electricity in 1611. And there's probably some stuff about consciousness that can never be known.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 06:15 PM (/kI1Q)

--------------

Well, one thing that know already...and seem to not want to acknowledge...is that we Humans are Mimics.

The Advertising and Marketing Industry is based on this.
How often do we see Ads which basically are saying..."Look at me, aren't I cool? Buy this product, and you can be like me!"

Mass shootings have been depicted in so many things, as a way to 'get revenge' for some percieved greivance.
This puts 'The Idea' of it out there.

It's not the guns that kill people.
It is 'The Idea' that it is okay to do so, that happens first.

Posted by: wheatie at December 14, 2012 06:25 PM (K4wCe)

332 Did someone really need a gun to stop him?
I'm pretty sure it would take a few bullets before I stopped trying to
disarm the m*th*r F*ck*r if he was coming after me and a group of small
children.

Unless he hit my brain I believe I could get to him, I
don't think the adrenaline in my veins would stop even after my heart
stopped and I would atleast clear a path for someone else to tag the
persons sorry ass.

Of course I could be wrong....I've never taken
a bullet so I don't really know what it's really like. It's not like
he was carrying a .50 caliber or something..

Posted by: John Stark Dark at December 14, 2012 06:25 PM (PALjS)

333 Gonesh? Isn't that Goddamn dead-head hippie god of incense?

Posted by: Restless Leg Syndrome at December 14, 2012 06:26 PM (SiF4n)

334
331,...one thing that *we* know already
argh.

Posted by: wheatie at December 14, 2012 06:26 PM (K4wCe)

335 >>>n the perfect execution of what you described, sure. But potential problems with this scenario is a) potential for abuse by the keyholders (who gets to decide who those people are? the school board?) and b) what happens if the folks with the keys and the guns botch it, with kids in the crossfire?

Who do you think controls it? Do I have to spell it out? The School Board chooses the most psychologically stable people it has and those who are willing to do this duty. It gives keys out in pairs, with two keys necessary to open the safe. You have multiple pairs of keys in case on teacher's out.

Point is, it takes two to open the safe. Like we do with nuclear missiles. Yes, both could go crazy at the same time. Odds are, they won't.

Liberals have this weird idea that guns are like radioactive or something and cause insanity and criminality simply by being nearby.

Imagine yourself with a gun. Or frankly, me. or 90% of the upstanding, level-headed people you know.

What is your actual level of fear we're going to go bonkers and kill people? Is this likely? Or a rather small chance?

The fact is, I just think liberals do not know many people with guns. I know a lot of them. I'm one of them. *Nothing ever happens!* The guns are not pulled out in anger! Fights do not suddenly turn deadly! No one says "Fuck you, you stay right there, I'm getting my gun!"

Now of course there are also lots of people who are criminal/impulsive/crazy and should not have guns.

But your average person, armed with a gun? You banker, armed with a gun? Your dentist, armed with a gun? What is the danger, there, apart from the conceded, but tiny, chance that anyone, no matter how stable, could go berserk? Apart from that incredibly rare Sudden Psychosis Syndrome (which I'm not sure even happens, but let's say it does), what is the fear of ordinary people bearing arms?

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:27 PM (LCRYB)

336
I'm so fucking pissed right now I can't see straight.

God didn't cause this, or allow it to be caused. It was the shooter's rejection of God and the values his Son teaches us that caused it.

I understand your anger, I really do. But also understand that we are created to be free to accept or reject anything. If it's any comfort at all, just think of the innocent souls spending Christmas in Heaven within His Loving Embrace.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 06:27 PM (yiIja)

337
Shooters mother was a teachers aide and not a teacher at the school, per ABC.

---

This combined with all the other inaccuracies has convinced me that we are in a functioning chrono-synclastic infundibulum as defined by Kurt Vonnegut in The Sirens of Titan. It's a location where everybody can disagree and still be right. Truth doesn't matter because everybody is always right.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 06:27 PM (Hx5uv)

338 104 Was his name jimi ray???

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 06:27 PM (XDC0v)

339 Did someone really need a gun to stop him?
I'm pretty sure it would take a few bullets before I stopped trying to
disarm the m*th*r F*ck*r if he was coming after me and a group of small
children.


Oh, look. Batman joined the discussion.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 14, 2012 06:27 PM (SY2Kh)

340 re: "Unless someone has committed a crime, under what basis do you believe that you can indefinitely confine them against there will?"

Seriously.

There are some readily observable traits that are much more strongly correlated with criminal violence than people think you're crazy is.

Do we start there? Get those guys off the streets first? Why not? You're trying to protect the innocent here, right? All rationally.

...

re: "Where do these shooters get 'The Idea' of going out and shooting people on a mass scale?"

There was never a time in human history when mass murder didn't happen. How it gets done is contingent on era and the abilities and status of the murderer(s), but it's always done. There's no external origin of The Idea. You have it. And if you're an isolated individual who's alive right now, "Shoot a bunch of people who are helplessly confined together" is how you might express it, should you decide it's necessary.

Posted by: oblig. at December 14, 2012 06:27 PM (cePv8)

341 That was a great comment..they'll be spending Christmas with Christ.

Posted by: crotcheyoldjarhead at December 14, 2012 06:28 PM (1W1S7)

342 I would suggest a better method is to teach people the difference between right and wrong. We used to have a national standard for Morality. Not so much nowadays.


-------------------------------------------------


THIS! THIS! THIS!

Posted by: Soona at December 14, 2012 06:28 PM (1CXqI)

343 310 -

There has also been a movement in the psychiatric world for the last 30 or so years, where institutionalizing people is NOT the goal of treatment.

The Recovery movement still doesn't have many psychiatrists on board, but everybody else in mental health pretty much is.

So while nobody wants crazy people just wandering the street, many people DO want psychiatrically stable people in as uncontrolled of an environment as is safe for them and others.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 14, 2012 06:29 PM (BeSEI)

344 "313 So the man totally without a conscience, the Gun Running Merchant Of
Death, Obama, who sent thousands upon thousands of guns (mainly assault
weapons) to Mexican drug gangs, getting hundreds, if not thousands, and
that’s so far, of men, women and children, including toddlers, brutally
shot to death expects us to now believe he is heartbroken over the
shooting deaths of a small fraction of that number? Who could possibly
be stupid enough to believe this?

Posted by: FeralCat at December 14, 2012 06:20 PM (cY9nU) "

Never let a crisis or opportunity go to waste...

So, Fate (since Obama does not believe in God, or even Allah) presents Obama/Leftists with the opportunity to
1) Politick
2) "Enhance" the police state and other aspects of state power
3) Demonize guns
4) Demonize Western men
5) Demonize nonconformists and nonconformism

Of course he/they are going to be all over that.

Very well. Here is my counterstrike/"reaction:"

I blame the Media. I question the effects that all of the glamorized violence and other filth that this human being has been exposed to since an early age has had upon his psyche and psychological well-being.

And I do not do so cynically. I do so in the spirit of Christianity, which we would all be wise to keep in mind and in our souls at moments such as this.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 06:29 PM (AoWJ4)

345 I wish that the Principal and Vice Principal could have guns in their office safe. In fact, it would be a good idea to allow teachers to take an entire summer training course with those stun guns. If you're in the room next door to where the shooting is occurring, it would be great if you had a weapon in a safe that you could access.

Posted by: Brian Dennehy in Zardoz at December 14, 2012 06:29 PM (BAnPT)

346 The 3rd Sunday of Advent is Gaudete, or Joyful Sunday. But how do we have a Joyful Sunday after tragedy like this latest school shooting?

Because the light shines in the darkness. Because the darkness of Advent will give way to the brilliant light of Christmas. Because God is with us.

Posted by: TiminAL at December 14, 2012 06:29 PM (A9c4d)

347 Well thats nice 341, but they SHOULD be spending Christmas with their parents and siblings.

Posted by: jewells45 at December 14, 2012 06:29 PM (u25eL)

348 @Merovign - hey there. Vladivostok (pop. 600,000) is surprisingly cosmopolitan, even though it's NE of Korea. It actually feels more European than Moscow in a way.

re Pilots: You're pulling from an advantaged pool for this scenario, I think. A good deal of pilots actually *are* ex-military, aren't they? Certainly a higher percentage than your average community.

I'd also like to think that pilots are already pre-screened for *any* signs of mental instability before they even get to fly, let alone carry the gun. At least I hope!

But yes, agreed, this is a massively sticky wicket, and we seem to have only blunt instruments at hand.

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:30 PM (6QYh/)

349 136 Was his name jimi ray?

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 06:30 PM (XDC0v)

350 @ 104
Who wants to know? Who wants to know?

Posted by: Concern Troll at December 14, 2012 06:30 PM (4KOF2)

351 >>There's a man in a smelly flannel shirt sitting on the computer next to

me
He's posting under the name Dream Avenger. He may be homeless, he doesn't seem to have bathed in weeks.


Posted by: Little old lady in the library at December 14, 2012 06:19 PM (/YJYi)


He's there because Ace threw his laptop in the dumpster a few minutes ago.

Posted by: ontherocks at December 14, 2012 06:30 PM (aZ6ew)

352 He's a capitalist in every sense of the word, except one. He thinks everyone on "the right" is evil.

I
don't fault people for being too stupid to realize their lives and
their beliefs are incompatible. That's their problem, not mine.


Posted by: BurtTC at December 14, 2012 06:22 PM (BeSEI)


It's a cognitive disconnect. Nathan Fillian occasionally pops off with some Liberal Blather, but He also said his work as Malcolm Reynolds was the finest and most thoughtful work he has ever done.

That the Persona of Malcolm Reynolds pretty much describes a right-wing\Libertarian sort of guy, simply does not register with him. The Right has been so demonized by his associates that he doesn't even recognize it when he plays it on television.




Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:30 PM (bb5+k)

353 This crap is heartbreaking on a somewhat personal level. I have a daughter in kindergarten. My wife taught kindergarten for 4 years. (Including an instance when an enraged man was in the building with a gun and threatening to kill someone)

I'm not a mushy emotional guy, but its with less than dry eyes that I read the accounts and stories. This could've been my family.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 14, 2012 06:30 PM (3eGg5)

354 But your average person, armed with a gun? You banker, armed with a gun? Your dentist, armed with a gun? What is the danger, there, apart from the conceded, but tiny, chance that anyone, no matter how stable, could go berserk? Apart from that incredibly rare Sudden Psychosis Syndrome (which I'm not sure even happens, but let's say it does), what is the fear of ordinary people bearing arms?

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:27 PM (LCRYB)

We have all these Soldiers, Sailors, And Marines trained ( well Trained ) to carry a weapon and stand a post. I am sure many of them would love to earn some extra money or credit towards College for some part time work guarding a school. It works in Israel.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 06:31 PM (jE38p)

355 I'm going to go further out and say that I'm not sure more atheism would have helped.

That's the thing about a religion-free society. Look, if you don't believe in God, you don't. That can't be forced.

But when you start telling the kid who burns ants with a magnifying glass that there is no God, you might end up with a problem on your hands.

If there is no just God, then morality is for chumps. Sure, you can restrain your behavior based on some nebulous set of beliefs, but recognize that it is irrational to do so.

The rational person will -- and should -- lie, cheat, steal and, yes, kill, if he believes it is to his benefit.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:31 PM (b65cm)

356 all that said there are obviously some people who should not have guns but gun laws are ineffective at keeping them out of the hands of the most obvious group that should be disarmed (criminals).

All criminals have them, if they want them.

So you're essentially passing a law to keep guns out of the hands out of hte precise people you don't have to worry about (those deterred by a law), based on some hope that... I don't know. That criminals will not be able to get guns any more if the quantity of guns is dramatically cut by forbidding the law-abiding from owning them?

The weird thing is that they have gun laws in Europe and broad disarmament, and yet in Germany there was a heinous school shooting 2-3 years ago, and no one seems to remember this.

It's just an article of faith that if you disarm the law-abiding, who will obey (reluctantly) a gun ban, somehow this is going to influence the same people who have been defying gun bans all their lives.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:31 PM (LCRYB)

357 A big problem us that there isnt really any medication to ""fix" autism. You can't make an empathy pill.

Posted by: Lauren at December 14, 2012 06:32 PM (9Jqgs)

358 Has anyone ever heard of someone with autism doing something like this? I have not.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 14, 2012 06:32 PM (BuSM8)

359 "180 Why go to the school? That will be the HUGE question after this is all said and done. He already killed the target of his misery, his mother. Why kill a bunch of kids?"

Elementary schools are kept locked and do not allow anyone entrance unless they work or have official business at the school. Parents have to call in advance to be allowed to pick up children. Parents or relatives without a note from the guardian, n advance, may not enter the school. So my question is: how did this guy gain entrance to the school. If his mother had not notified the school and explained some acceptable reason why he was showing up (ie picking up something for sick mother etc -which I find hard to believe that she would have done) they should have not allowed him in the school. How did he gain entrance?

have lockdowns for a number of reasons, but once they go into effect

Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 06:32 PM (OTWsz)

360 I'm going to go further out and say that I'm not sure more atheism would have helped.


Posted by: WalrusRex at December 14, 2012 06:23 PM (Hx5uv)


Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and other Atheists have a body count upwards of 100 Million. In Contrast, the inquisition killed something like 65,000 people over a 300 year period.



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:32 PM (bb5+k)

361 357
A big problem us that there isnt really any medication to ""fix" autism. You can't make an empathy pill.

Posted by: Lauren at December 14, 2012 06:32 PM (9Jqgs)

XTC/MDMA?

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 14, 2012 06:34 PM (AWmfW)

362 "355 I'm going to go further out and say that I'm not sure more atheism would have helped.

That's the thing about a religion-free society. Look, if you don't believe in God, you don't. That can't be forced.

But when you start telling the kid who burns ants with a magnifying glass that there is no God, you might end up with a problem on your hands.

If there is no just God, then morality is for chumps. Sure, you can restrain your behavior based on some nebulous set of beliefs, but recognize that it is irrational to do so.

The rational person will -- and should -- lie, cheat, steal and, yes, kill, if he believes it is to his benefit.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:31 PM (b65cm) "

Well, the good news is that most Atheists really are so stupid that they never figure that out, at least at a conscious level. (Although some do, and just pretend otherwise for obvious reasons.)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 06:34 PM (AoWJ4)

363 It's just an article of faith that if you disarm the
law-abiding, who will obey (reluctantly) a gun ban, somehow this is
going to influence the same people who have been defying gun bans all
their lives.





Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:31 PM (LCRYB)

Hate to say it, but if they outlaw guns - I'll by necessity become an outlaw. And if they come for them, I'll be polite and give them my ammo first.
That said, prayers.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at December 14, 2012 06:35 PM (GRvW4)

364 356 That criminals will not be able to get guns any more if the quantity of guns is dramatically cut by forbidding the law-abiding from owning them?

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:31 PM (LCRYB)
---

Well that's the standard prog argument to explain away Chicago, NYC, and DC.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 06:35 PM (BgIBZ)

365 MUMR'd

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 06:35 PM (60GaT)

366 Mass shootings have been depicted in so many things, as a way to 'get revenge' for some percieved greivance.
This puts 'The Idea' of it out there.


In 1912, back before TV, and before movies really, a family in Iowa got hacked to death in the middle of the night, presumably by a stranger (crime was never solved).

Even if all the MFM banded together to never report contemporary spree killings again, and all the Hollywood producers agreed to never make movies or TV shows with them, and all the music jeanne doesn't like is destroyed, people are still going to do horrible things.

Human nature.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 06:35 PM (/kI1Q)

367 >>>If there is no just God, then morality is for chumps. Sure, you can restrain your behavior based on some nebulous set of beliefs, but recognize that it is irrational to do so.

so, so dumb.

Sorry, but I find this idea that one shouldn't be Moral unless there is a Big Scorekeeper in the Sky pretty crude.

Is that the only thing that keeps YOU on the straight and narrow? If so, you're not so much moral as calculatedly risk-averse.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:36 PM (LCRYB)

368 363 I'll by necessity become an outlaw. And if they come for them, I'll be polite and give them my ammo first.
Posted by: eastvalleyphx at December 14, 2012 06:35 PM (GRvW4)
---

Nothing illegal about losing your private property in a boating accident. It's the ZeroHedge way.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 06:36 PM (BgIBZ)

369 Where do these shooters get 'The Idea' of going out and shooting people on a mass scale?

Jamie Foxx?

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:36 PM (b65cm)

370 "365 MUMR'd

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 06:35 PM (60GaT) "

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 06:37 PM (AoWJ4)

371 Nothing illegal about losing your private property in a boating accident. It's the ZeroHedge way.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 06:36 PM (BgIBZ)

Hah hah. I think I've mentioned that they fell out of my truck a while ago.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at December 14, 2012 06:37 PM (GRvW4)

372 It could be that we live in a morally shrivelled age where everything is relative, people are generally self-obsessed and thus lack empathy. Add to that the constant unrelenting cultural bombardment of outright conflicting values, and a weak - deranged - nihilistic - personality could be primed to do - well, whatever the hell they feel like doing.

Posted by: tubal at December 14, 2012 06:37 PM (BoE3Z)

373
God didn't cause this, or allow it to be caused. It was the shooter's rejection of God and the values his Son teaches us that caused it.

I understand your anger, I really do. But also understand that we are created to be free to accept or reject anything. If it's any comfort at all, just think of the innocent souls spending Christmas in Heaven within His Loving Embrace.

.......

I get that. But Those children had free will, too, and now they're dead. I get that maybe they're in a better place. But they never had a chance. They never had a fucking chance. So I don't buy the whole "everyone can choose" thing when that choice is taken away by freaks. Kill all the adults you want to. Kill us all, we had our shot, and most of us fucked it up. The little ones are blameless. They don't deserve to die in fear and pain.

Posted by: . at December 14, 2012 06:37 PM (Q8Wa9)

374 "366 Mass shootings have been depicted in so many things, as a way to 'get revenge' for some percieved greivance.
This puts 'The Idea' of it out there.

In 1912, back before TV, and before movies really, a family in Iowa got hacked to death in the middle of the night, presumably by a stranger (crime was never solved).

Even if all the MFM banded together to never report contemporary spree killings again, and all the Hollywood producers agreed to never make movies or TV shows with them, and all the music jeanne doesn't like is destroyed, people are still going to do horrible things.

Human nature.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 06:35 PM (/kI1Q) "

Maybe. But I'm willing to test that hypothesis.


(Also, quantity might be important...)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 06:38 PM (AoWJ4)

375 There are some readily observable traits that are much more strongly correlated with criminal violence than people think you're crazy is.

Do we start there? Get those guys off the streets first? Why not? You're trying to protect the innocent here, right? All rationally.


I'm getting to. What is the standard? Who decides when of if it is met? The power to confine both indefinitely and autocratically is a power that BEGS to be abused.

Are you ok with potentially confining people for life against their will who otherwise would have never been violent? Because you will end up doing that no matter what standard for violence prevention you set. Presumably not condemned by their peers, but condemned by an expert who proclaim them to not be "normal" enough. And then to be denied the right to liberty without a crime.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 06:38 PM (0q2P7)

376 The solution set should include more guns - the front office or principal should have a locked down 410 pump. I would be perfectly comfortable with the maintenance guy at my kids school packing heat. Until the schools are harder targets, this will happen again.

Posted by: Jean at December 14, 2012 06:38 PM (49lPc)

377 "Yes, due to the abuses of a very small minority [of insane people] the vast majority [sane people] must
surrender a fundamental right."

Fixed it.

Posted by: Jim Sonweed at December 14, 2012 06:38 PM (9gW0q)

378 > Is that the only thing that keeps YOU on the straight and narrow? If so, you're not so much moral as calculatedly risk-averse.

Ace, you're a smart guy. There are plenty of smart atheists running around not being evil. However, I'd argue that atheism and stupidity in concert are a bad combination.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at December 14, 2012 06:38 PM (K1JW0)

379 If there is no just God, then morality is for chumps. Sure, you can restrain your behavior based on some nebulous set of beliefs, but recognize that it is irrational to do so.
This is bullshit .

Posted by: iKant at December 14, 2012 06:38 PM (bGwJy)

380 Is that the only thing that keeps YOU on the straight and narrow? If so, you're not so much moral as calculatedly risk-averse.





Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:36 PM (LCRYB)
And what, exactly, is wrong with that? Not noble?

Posted by: tubal at December 14, 2012 06:39 PM (BoE3Z)

381


Nothing illegal about losing your private property in a boating accident. It's the ZeroHedge way.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 06:36 PM (BgIBZ)

The memory loss makes the boating accident so much worse..

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 14, 2012 06:39 PM (AWmfW)

382 Okay, Adam lived with Mom who owned the guns. He murdered her and then went to school and shot all those people Dad lives in Stamford Conn and is alive.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 06:39 PM (0Ufr+)

383 Some strange young men do great, but they are all fat.

Posted by: Michael Moore's Brain at December 14, 2012 06:39 PM (wR+pz)

384 All my FB libs, and suspected libs were ejected about 35 days ago. Except for the wishes of prayers, the page is pretty much normal.

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 06:40 PM (2t6Gz)

385
The rational person will -- and should -- lie, cheat, steal and, yes, kill, if he believes it is to his benefit.


Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:31 PM (b65cm)


I argue with Atheists all the time. They simply do not comprehend that their "ethical" Atheist is a product of the majority Judeo/Christian environment surrounding them. Allow for second and third generation Atheists, and your society will be cut throat and unable to discern right from wrong.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:40 PM (bb5+k)

386
Ace, you're a smart guy. There are plenty of
smart atheists running around not being evil. However, I'd argue that
atheism and stupidity in concert are a bad combination.


Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at December 14, 2012 06:38 PM (K1JW0)
Religious people are "good" on crimes too.

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 14, 2012 06:40 PM (AWmfW)

387 There was never a time in human history when mass murder didn't happen.
How it gets done is contingent on era and the abilities and status of
the murderer(s), but it's always done. There's no external origin of The
Idea. You have it.


That's what I was trying to say, but I'm not very good at it.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 06:41 PM (/kI1Q)

388 Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:31 PM (LCRYB)
___
Switzerland has a very low incidence of gun crimes. Their citizenry is required to own and know how to operate a firearm because they have no standing army.

Posted by: kallisto at December 14, 2012 06:41 PM (jm/9g)

389 >>>And what, exactly, is wrong with that? Not noble?

I don't suppose there's anything wrong with it but then I wouldn't understand the crowing about it, either -- it seems just a rational cost-benefit analysis, a calculation of utilitarian value. I get punished if I do X so I don't do X.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:41 PM (LCRYB)

390 It's just an article of faith that if you disarm the
law-abiding, who will obey (reluctantly) a gun ban, somehow this is
going to influence the same people who have been defying gun bans all
their lives.





Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:31 PM (LCRYB)


I read that England is having a plague of knife murders and assaults. Whoda thunk?


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:41 PM (bb5+k)

391 Agreed Ace. Had the same thought earlier.

Why kids? What the fuck? I ain't much of a cryer, but this one is hitting hard.

I told my mom the other night that God ought to be pretty pissed about
the mess we've made, and I wouldn't blame him for wiping us all out and
starting over - He's done it before.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at December 14, 2012 06:41 PM (GRvW4)

392 "367 >>>If there is no just God, then morality is for chumps. Sure, you can restrain your behavior based on some nebulous set of beliefs, but recognize that it is irrational to do so.

so, so dumb.

Sorry, but I find this idea that one shouldn't be Moral unless there is a Big Scorekeeper in the Sky pretty crude.

Is that the only thing that keeps YOU on the straight and narrow? If so, you're not so much moral as calculatedly risk-averse.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:36 PM (LCRYB) "

I had some other stuff written here, but I've erased it. I'm just going to not say anything.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 06:41 PM (AoWJ4)

393 The guy couldn't have been totally socially inept if he had a girlfriend.

His brother says he hasn't spoken to Adam for years. Hmmm.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 06:41 PM (0Ufr+)

394
340...re: "Where do these shooters get 'The Idea' of going out and shooting people on a mass scale?"

There was never a time in human history when mass murder didn't happen. How it gets done is contingent on era and the abilities and status of the murderer(s), but it's always done. There's no external origin of The Idea. You have it. And if you're an isolated individual who's alive right now, "Shoot a bunch of people who are helplessly confined together" is how you might express it, should you decide it's necessary.

Posted by: oblig. at December 14, 2012 06:27 PM (cePv

----------

No.
I don't "have it".
I don't have 'The Idea' that going out and killing a lot of people is a solution for...anything.
They only way I wouldconsider killing anyone, is in self-defense...or the defense of someone else.

I grew up around guns, they were even in the classroom...stored at the back of the room with the coats.
No one ever picked up one and turned it on anyone.
But that was back before there was so much explicit violence being shown to us in movies, tv, etc.

Posted by: wheatie at December 14, 2012 06:42 PM (K4wCe)

395 Sorry, but I find this idea that one shouldn't be Moral unless there is a Big Scorekeeper in the Sky pretty crude.



Is that the only thing that keeps YOU on the straight and narrow? If so, you're not so much moral as calculatedly risk-averse.


I'm not speaking about right and wrong, I am speaking about cold, cruel reason.

Forget murder. Think about whether you should give proper change or pocket some for yourself. No harm done, right? How about a little lie. No big deal, OK?

What if you are a king? Shouldn't you kill your enemies? After all, you're king. You'll get away with it.

Niccolo says you should.

And if you don't, you are a chump and only hurting yourself.

Morality is, by its very nature, irrational.

So tell me: If I want to kill myself and there's no Scorekeeper in the Sky and I'm simply depressed and know that my existence will end in 24 hours, what reason can you provide for me not to get some pleasure out of hurting my enemies?

Logic is a dark, dark place. It ain't all rainbows and Spocks.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:42 PM (b65cm)

396 Whether we like it or not. The age of super-empowered individuals will mean ever greater state surveillance and control. I wish it weren't so.

It's clear there's a non-trivial # of psychos willing to kill as many people as they can. They seem to be only limited by the weapons they can get their hands on.

In the age of DIY biotech that threat is too great to be ignored.

I'm not that afraid of a psycho with guns. I am afraid of a psycho with his own biotech lab in his basement.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 06:42 PM (ZPrif)

397 >>>I argue with Atheists all the time. They simply do not comprehend that their "ethical" Atheist is a product of the majority Judeo/Christian environment surrounding them. Allow for second and third generation Atheists, and your society will be cut throat and unable to discern right from wrong.

Also, bullsith.

Posted by: iKant at December 14, 2012 06:42 PM (bGwJy)

398 42
How did this person gain access to firearms?

Clearly, he is not legally qualified to purchase, own, or possess firearms.


Posted by: Fritz at December 14, 2012 05:19 PM (K/NRd)

Fox just said the guns were his mothers? WTF?

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at December 14, 2012 06:43 PM (wR+pz)

399 Clayton Cramer has written about this issue extensively.

Talk to any corrections officer or jailer. We are currently warehousing a lot of those with mental problems in jail or prison.

Posted by: wg at December 14, 2012 06:43 PM (Xyku3)

400 @Ace-

>>Liberals have this weird idea that guns are like radioactive or something and cause insanity and criminality simply by being nearby....Imagine yourself with a gun. Or frankly, me. or 90% of the upstanding, level-headed people you know. ...What is your actual level of fear we're going to go bonkers and kill people? Is this likely? Or a rather small chance?

I don't think I said any of that. I know this is your blog and you're used to addressing "liberals" in general (and yes, I self-identify for the purpose of honesty) but in this instance you can just address me and what I said, I'm right here!

I don't fear SUDDEN INSANITY because guns are nearby. I know plenty of people with guns. I live in Tennessee. My wife's entire family is military. I don't fear people lawfully owning guns in their homes for self-protection, or even for whatever reason they desire. What I tried to spell out was my wariness of creating an school-board-regulated armed structure somewhere between traditional self-carrying and a traditional police force. I see serious potential for problems there, and I'm not totally convinced of its effectiveness (as a previous commenter pointed out, shit can happen fast). I don't think this qualifies as ZOMG GUNS ARE CRAZY, for the record.

I'm not saying I have a better idea, either. Fair enough?

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:43 PM (6QYh/)

401 373 Deserve has nothing to do with anything

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 06:43 PM (XDC0v)

402 I'm aghast at the crudeness of this idea that if we didn't have Christians around we wouldn't realize that cruelty, murder, and selfishness were bad.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (LCRYB)

403 376 The solution set should include more guns - the front office or principal should have a locked down 410 pump. I would be perfectly comfortable with the maintenance guy at my kids school packing heat. Until the schools are harder targets, this will happen again.
Posted by: Jean at December 14, 2012 06:38 PM (49lPc)



No way. Did you see the protests in Wisconsin? You want those people in charge of firearms? Hell no.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (3eGg5)

404 389
>>>And what, exactly, is wrong with that? Not noble?



I don't suppose there's anything wrong with it but then I wouldn't
understand the crowing about it, either -- it seems just a rational
cost-benefit analysis, a calculation of utilitarian value. I get
punished if I do X so I don't do X.





Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:41 PM (LCRYB)
I'll out myself here. I am full-tilt Christian, bad language and naughty thoughts notwithstanding. I fear God. Because I fear His power. It keeps me in some sort of check. I am not, by far, as bad as I could be. So, you are right, in a sense. It is a cost-benefit analysis.

Posted by: tubal at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (BoE3Z)

405 Okay, more shocking news today . . .

Cindy Crawford has a furniture line??

Posted by: logprof at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (LMgaP)

406 "scorekeeper in the sky" is a bit of a glib way of dismissing arguments on whether fixed morality can exist apart from God

although i don't think atheists are dumb or w/e

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (60GaT)

407 350 Intriguing post in a thread which pretty muchconsists of"concern trolling". Dick-

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (XDC0v)

408 The gore and violence shown every Sunday night in a Walking Dead episode would have earned a movie a Rated X rating 20 years ago.

There is a ratcheting effect. The gore on a CSI episode would've been R rated 20 years ago.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (ZPrif)

409 > Also, bullsith.

The rationality of your argument astounds. Please expound upon it good sir.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at December 14, 2012 06:45 PM (K1JW0)

410 "385
The rational person will -- and should -- lie, cheat, steal and, yes, kill, if he believes it is to his benefit.


Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:31 PM (b65cm)


I argue with Atheists all the time. They simply do not comprehend that their "ethical" Atheist is a product of the majority Judeo/Christian environment surrounding them. Allow for second and third generation Atheists, and your society will be cut throat and unable to discern right from wrong.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:40 PM (bb5+k) "

We're pretty much already there.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 06:45 PM (AoWJ4)

411 >>>I don't think I said any of that. I know this is your blog and you're used to addressing "liberals" in general (and yes, I self-identify for the purpose of honesty) but in this instance you can just address me and what I said, I'm right here!


yeah sorry about that. I got annoyed at your initial questions (How would we ever administer such a complex scheme? as being deliberately I-don't-understand-your-simple-point-ish) and then began railing on things you hadn't said.

I went off. Sorry.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:45 PM (LCRYB)

412 Switzerland has a very low incidence of gun crimes.

It's also a fairly homogenous citizenry and the Swiss heavily control their immigration, even for professionals.

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at December 14, 2012 06:45 PM (53riN)

413
Is that the only thing that keeps YOU on the straight and narrow? If so, you're not so much moral as calculatedly risk-averse.





Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:36 PM (LCRYB)


You might not realize it, but the scorekeeper in the sky really does work on the Majority of people. I have long referred to this as the "Santa Claus Effect." There was a study I saw many months back that said a belief in hell tends to reduce crime.

A Belief in a God that even's scores in the afterlife creates the circumstance of individuals appointing themselves to be their own watchers through the proxy of their belief in a Higher being. Naturally with one part of their mind watching them, they tend to be on their best behavior lest they catch themselves doing something bad.



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:45 PM (bb5+k)

414 The only recent mass murders I can think of that didn't involve a schizophrenia was the Norway killings and Oklahoma City. Clearly we don't know if this killer was schizophrenic yet but we all suspect. Sadly mental illness is the common denominator in all other
tragedies. I appreciate all of the thoughts on this issue offered here. It is a very difficult issue weighing an individuals right to liberty and the needs to protect society. It seems only some moron blog is the only place willing to discuss this. If politicians and the media were really serious this would be the discussion. However we are stuck with the same old video games, guns and movie are the root of all evil theme.

Posted by: Long Island at December 14, 2012 06:46 PM (hl8SI)

415 Actually, @nevergiveup, I think that's a potentially good idea. I'd like them to be from the community they're serving and not imported in, but that said, yeah.

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:47 PM (6QYh/)

416 >>>What I tried to spell out was my wariness of creating an school-board-regulated armed structure somewhere between traditional self-carrying and a traditional police force. I see serious potential for problems there, and I'm not totally convinced of its effectiveness (as a previous commenter pointed out, shit can happen fast). I don't think this qualifies as ZOMG GUNS ARE CRAZY, for the record.

right, okay, I get that, but frankly we need to begin to reallize that mass murderers are not hitting banks, police stations, etc. The do not hit places with guns. They are looking for vulnerable groups.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:47 PM (LCRYB)

417
Of course the mom had guns! She lives in a high end house in the middle of nowhere.

Remember the Petrie home invasion in Conn? The guys cracked open the dad's head, raped the mother and the little girl, and set the house on fire, killing the mother and the two daughters. Dad managed to get out.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 06:47 PM (0Ufr+)

418 I'm aghast at the crudeness of this idea that if we didn't have Christians around we wouldn't realize that cruelty, murder, and selfishness were bad.

You and me both.

Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 06:48 PM (bGwJy)

419 @Ace - all good.

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:48 PM (6QYh/)

420 ignore the teacher idea. Fine, just hire a security guard. Ex cop. retired guy who gets to read the newspaper all day.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:48 PM (LCRYB)

421 "395 Sorry, but I find this idea that one shouldn't be Moral unless there is a Big Scorekeeper in the Sky pretty crude.



Is that the only thing that keeps YOU on the straight and narrow? If so, you're not so much moral as calculatedly risk-averse.

I'm not speaking about right and wrong, I am speaking about cold, cruel reason.

Forget murder. Think about whether you should give proper change or pocket some for yourself. No harm done, right? How about a little lie. No big deal, OK?

What if you are a king? Shouldn't you kill your enemies? After all, you're king. You'll get away with it.

Niccolo says you should.

And if you don't, you are a chump and only hurting yourself.

Morality is, by its very nature, irrational.

So tell me: If I want to kill myself and there's no Scorekeeper in the Sky and I'm simply depressed and know that my existence will end in 24 hours, what reason can you provide for me not to get some pleasure out of hurting my enemies?

Logic is a dark, dark place. It ain't all rainbows and Spocks.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:42 PM (b65cm) "

Actually, it's all Spocks. It's just that Spock would be "a sociopath."

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 06:48 PM (AoWJ4)

422 Sorry problem with editing. re" 180 'Why kill a bunch of kids'?" Because they meant something to the mother, where seen as an extension/expression of her life, possible jealousy- they are loved more than me, small children are venerable --- he hated the school for various possible reasons.

Also: schools go into lockdown even when a local robbery takes place. Nothing gets in the doors, all the classrooms are locked down, students hidden best as possible.

That being said:

Frankly speaking, if an adult walked into my classroom and pointed a gun at my students, they would missing two kneecaps and a windpipe in 30 seconds.

Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 06:48 PM (OTWsz)

423 But that was back before there was so much explicit violence being shown to us in movies, tv, etc.

There was real violence going on all over the world--including wherever you lived--that whole time, much of it committed by people who never saw TV.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 06:48 PM (/kI1Q)

424

Am I the only surprised that the shooter wasn't ...


The Man In The NRA Hat.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 14, 2012 06:49 PM (uaJ2E)

425 If you need a reason to smile (and wow we need that right now) watch the first 60 seconds of this free clip from Beck's Christmas special. Apparently his 8 year old kid produced a Christmas play as part of it and made an introduction, and it is HILARIOUS.

http://tinyurl.com/ca5j4f2

Posted by: Filly at December 14, 2012 06:49 PM (4DXae)

426 402 -

There are many cultures around the world that would suggest precisely that.

Some of them are butting heads with western culture as we speak.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 14, 2012 06:49 PM (BeSEI)

427 What I tried to spell out was my wariness of creating an school-board-regulated armed structure somewhere between traditional self-carrying and a traditional police force.

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:43 PM (6QYh/)


A million ordinary, non-military or government people (or more) carry guns regularly without causing any trouble, and they even occasionally save lives.

I think maybe you have a bias toward thinking of it as an organized effort, an "agency," whereas I'm suggesting just having standards and then letting schools and teachers sort out if they trust someone to do that.

I'm pretty damned near an absolute opponent of government schooling anyway, so obviously I wouldn't be looking to set the TSA up in the schools.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 06:49 PM (bxiXv)

428 Where I live (rural NE), everyone has guns in their home.
They are treated like tools, power drill, lawn tractor, chainsaw, guns.

Pretty sure no on wanders on property after dark cuz of the power drill or the lawn tractor though.

Posted by: ontherocks at December 14, 2012 06:49 PM (aZ6ew)

429 #204, I take it you heard about the crazy woman that was trying to stab people on the D line last week?

Posted by: Blue Falcon in Boston at December 14, 2012 06:49 PM (KCvsd)

430 Bless the beasts and the children.

What a sorry wicked world this is.

Posted by: kallisto at December 14, 2012 06:50 PM (jm/9g)

431 412 Switzerland has a very low incidence of gun crimes.

It's also a fairly homogenous citizenry and the Swiss heavily control their immigration, even for professionals.

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at December 14, 2012 06:45 PM (53riN)

--It's not linguistically homogenous, but in terms of shared civic values (like the USA used to be), yeah, it's homogenous.

Posted by: logprof at December 14, 2012 06:50 PM (LMgaP)

432 Actually, it's all Spocks. It's just that Spock would be "a sociopath."

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney

With or without beard?

Posted by: SFGoth at December 14, 2012 06:50 PM (dZ756)

433 > I'm aghast at the crudeness of this idea that if we didn't have
Christians around we wouldn't realize that cruelty, murder, and
selfishness were bad.

It's not Christians specifically. I'm sure every religion (well, short of Baal, Moloch, and the like) has prohibitions on those things. And sure, the truly evil among us will act as they do regardless, but I'm pretty sure that legal prohibitions, which are based on religious prohibitions for the most part, keep the majority of average people from committing those actions.

I'm aghast at the crudeness of the idea that Western civilization could even have developed in the complete absence of Judeo-Christianity, so there's that.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at December 14, 2012 06:50 PM (K1JW0)

434 I take Nihilism for $200, Alex.

Posted by: navybrat at December 14, 2012 06:50 PM (Ty7ja)

435 Most of the high schools and middle schools and even some elementary schools in most cities have either security guards and in the large urban schools, a policemen is on staff.

Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 06:51 PM (OTWsz)

436 "scorekeeper in the sky" is a bit of a glib way of dismissing arguments on whether fixed morality can exist apart from God

although i don't think atheists are dumb or w/e


Oh, it can certainly exist. For instance, a shame culture can do the job if there is morality based on tradition.

But morality itself is not rational.

The popular philosophy now is that we have some sort of biological aversion to extreme immoral acts such as murder. Maybe that's true, but it doesn't contradict the thesis that morality is irrational. In fact, it simply supports the idea.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:51 PM (b65cm)

437 The gore on a CSI episode would've been R rated 20 years ago.

The gore on a CSI episode (ooh, science, big moral hazard there) would make Torquemada shrug.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 06:51 PM (/kI1Q)

438
Also, bullsith.

Posted by: iKant at December 14, 2012 06:42 PM (bGwJy)

Great rebuttal. I will point out that Atheist Stalin and Atheist Mao and Atheist Pol Pot collectively killed over 100 million people.


I see nothing wrong with their conduct if judged by their own logic.





Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:51 PM (bb5+k)

439 I think that's a potentially good idea. I'd like them to be from the community they're serving and not imported in, but that said, yeah.
Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:47 PM (6QYh/)

Even in those areas not near an Military Base, there are Reserve Centers thru-out the Country and recently retired and ex-military all over the place.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 06:52 PM (jE38p)

440 It is clear the sign stating that the school was a "Gun Free" area was printed to small. In fact all these signs across the nation need to be larger.

Some nuts can not read small signs, so our union proposes a new "School Signage Improvement Bill"

It should be part of the "New" Stimulus. Think of the childern and how many lives these new signs can save.


Call your congressman today.

Posted by: Sign Makers & Hangers Local at December 14, 2012 06:52 PM (wR+pz)

441 420 ignore the teacher idea. Fine, just hire a security guard. Ex cop. retired guy who gets to read the newspaper all day.
Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:48 PM (LCRYB)



Now that I'm fully in favor of. Schools are the ultimate soft target. No way for them to handle a violent individual.

I felt incredibly safe in airports after 9/11 when they were flooded with openly armed guards. I would feel much better about my child's safety at school if I knew there was a fully trained, armed presence on campus.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 14, 2012 06:52 PM (3eGg5)

442 The avg person wasn't view spanish inquisitions for 3 hrs every night.
Torquemada is a really bad counter-argument.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 06:53 PM (ZPrif)

443 "402 I'm aghast at the crudeness of this idea that if we didn't have Christians around we wouldn't realize that cruelty, murder, and selfishness were bad.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (LCRYB) "

And yet, it seems to be true. A lot truer than you might kind of think from time to time, in those moments of weakness when you doubt whether Atheism really does have all the answers.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 06:53 PM (AoWJ4)

444
Not to be insensitive, but over 40,000 Americans die every year just in traffic accidents. Where are all the people calling for vehicles to be banned?
The way we (as a society) react to things isn't rationale. My heart truly goes out to these families. Unimaginably horrible, truly. Ifsomething like this happened to one of my kids I don't now how I'd react, I can't comprehend it, doesn't even compute. But with that said, is the suffering of a family who's child was killed by some madman at school any worse than the suffering of a family who had their child killed in a car accident today? Across the USA how many elementary-school-aged children were killed in car accidents today?
I'm just saying, this event is now going to dominate the news for the next month, and continue on as a majortopic for well long after that.

Posted by: Andrew at December 14, 2012 06:53 PM (UN8O5)

445 I see nothing wrong with their conduct if judged by their own logic.
Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:51 PM (bb5+k)


Right there is your problem.
Morality is not relative.
Neither is logic/reason.


Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 06:53 PM (bGwJy)

446 "She was lobotomized to try and change her personality, from while not fully functional at least amicable and easy to be around"

If you read between the lines, her "difficulties" were a) being a bit slow and easily persuaded and b) being as much of a horn dog as her brothers.

Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (fjNx5)

447 I'm aghast at the crudeness of this idea that if we didn't have
Christians around we wouldn't realize that cruelty, murder, and
selfishness were bad.



You and me both.


You're not thinking solipsistically. I understand why society wouldn't want cruelty, murder and selfishness...

but why should *I* voluntarily restrain my behavior in this way?

It makes no sense. I'm putting myself at a disadvantage for...what, exactly?

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (b65cm)

448 >>>Is that the only thing that keeps YOU on the straight and narrow? If so, you're not so much moral as calculatedly risk-averse.

Absolutely; absent a belief in an absolute morality, I can find no rational reason to behave in a moral manner. My most rational course would be to publicly proclaim the collectivist utility of common morality while privately going about whatever my heart desired. In short, everyone should follow rules of morality but me. Fortunately in that case, absent that absolute metaphysical arbitrator all the lies that I would have to tell proclaiming myself to be a deep believer in morality while privately shunning it would be also morally neutral. So it remains in my mind that the moral atheist is either lying to me, or holding an irrational belief in a detached absolute standard of conduct and meaning that cannot be objectively explained. This has always caused me some anxiety when dealing with the proclaimed atheist. I have to depend upon either their whim, or irrationality, to act morally. I tend to think that many atheists don't get that when they espouse that morality does exist as something more than a relativistic construct, in necessarily follows, as with any game that actually has a score, a referee also exists to keep it.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (0q2P7)

449 >>>So tell me: If I want to kill myself and there's no Scorekeeper in the Sky and I'm simply depressed and know that my existence will end in 24 hours, what reason can you provide for me not to get some pleasure out of hurting my enemies?

>>>Logic is a dark, dark place. It ain't all rainbows and Spocks.

Well, I think moral sentiment is inborn. I think you probably believe that too but ascribe it to God. Whereas I ascribe it to built-in empathy functions.

A strict rationalist will cry when he sees a child crying.

But either way we agree that there is an inborn sense of morality.

There is also a component of egocentric ethics. Most people have a preference to be Good, or at least be thought of that way (or think of themselves that way).


Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (LCRYB)

450
Aligator-tear-wiping phoney little bitch 0bammy, executive order contravening the 2nd commin' up? Fast Furious didn't do it for ya the way ya planned, so don't letthis crisis go to waste!
Like Jaime Fox ("I getta kill all de white peepul in dis Jango Unchained moovie!") axed onna TV talk show recently, "how black izzat?"
Well, I'd tell ya, but we'd need a clean up in this aisle, sonny-boy.

Posted by: ktnxbai*coughing up lace wigs* at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (he33V)

451 I'm aghast at the crudeness of this idea that if we
didn't have Christians around we wouldn't realize that cruelty, murder,
and selfishness were bad.





Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (LCRYB)


I ask you what the world was like before they came along? The website "Bede's Library" has some very good essays on the role of Christianity in creating Western Civilization. It certainly abolished slavery. Would an Atheist society have done such a thing?



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (bb5+k)

452 The avg person wasn't view spanish inquisitions for 3 hrs every night.

They loved them some public executions, though. Watching live people get drawn and quartered, disemboweled, castrated right in front of them...

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (/kI1Q)

453 OK, the kid was a psychopath. How can you even shoot that many kids and get through it all?

I would not know firsthand, maybe a lot of you do. But, in military training I am told it is difficult to train a young man to kill. Most don't want to do it. It has to be taught, even to kill an enemy.

Posted by: navybrat at December 14, 2012 06:55 PM (Ty7ja)

454 1.2 Million abortions per year in the United States divided by 365 days equals 3287 babies aborted just TODAY. Perspective. Which one motivates the country to change things?

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 06:55 PM (XDC0v)

455 It works in Israel.

My Dad used to go to Jamaica every year. He claimed he was engaging in 'research' because he claimed that what happened there was going to happen to the USA. Shootings on the street, yeah, it came here. Runaway inflation, yeah it came here. Four dollar a gallon gasoline, yeah it came here. Unemployment through the roof, yeah it came here.

As for Israel, they do a much better job of reacting quickly and instinctively and proactively. They don't have a TSA that strip searches 90 year old nuns. They do what needs to be done to provide security for their people. While being surrounded on about four sides by barbarians. The sooner we adopt their model the sooner we'll be less like Jamaica.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at December 14, 2012 06:56 PM (feFL6)

456 There is a ratcheting effect. The gore on a CSI episode would've been R rated 20 years ago.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (ZPrif)


I'm not sure about that. The series' "Friday the 13th" and "War of the Worlds" were around back then. WOTW had alien arms exploding from people's bodies. In prime-time.

There were certainly times when gore was less common, but it's not like we're a different revision of the human genome than 50 or 100 years ago.

I mean, how long ago was it that we had public hangings and beheadings and shootings and such?

People have a little bit of nostalgia, I think. That doesn't mean some things weren't better, just that we overestimate that.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 06:56 PM (bxiXv)

457 454

i'm pro-life but can we not

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 06:57 PM (60GaT)

458 I felt incredibly safe in airports after 9/11 when they were flooded with openly armed guards

When in French airports you routinely see soldiers patrol openly carrying automatic weapons. Always felt safe that way. Our TSA in the states, not so much. Too busy groping and nose-picking.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows þr0n is your constitutionally guaranteed entitlement at December 14, 2012 06:57 PM (Lxw+T)

459 It's also a fairly homogenous citizenry and the Swiss heavily control their immigration, even for professionals.

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at December 14, 2012 06:45 PM (53riN)

Bingo. Take out the democrat voters in this country, and crime would be pretty low. It is not an accident that 40% of the prison population is Black.And racism is not the cause. One out of three Black males will be arrested in their life time. Of course, the fact that 75% are born out of wedlock has nothing to do with this. Yeah, right.
http://tinyurl.com/6m7dr6

Posted by: Billy Bob, the guy who drinks in SC at December 14, 2012 06:57 PM (wR+pz)

460 I'm aghast at the crudeness of this idea that if we
didn't have Christians around we wouldn't realize that cruelty, murder,
and selfishness were bad.

I know! Next time, let's leave the development of civilization to the muzzies! What could possibly go wrong?

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at December 14, 2012 06:57 PM (53riN)

461 I'm off to the airport. Good luck banning mass media, For The Children.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 14, 2012 06:57 PM (/kI1Q)

462 Damn, according to the latest ABC update he shot his mom at her home and then went to shoot up the school. (the 6:25 pm post, that also has a pic of the shooter) http://abcn.ws/QYDeWM

Posted by: Zombie Flanders at December 14, 2012 06:57 PM (YGxEA)

463 We're pretty much already there.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 06:45 PM (AoWJ4)

Morality is no longer taught as a civic virtue. Moral Relativity and A-Morality has taken it's place. It is no surprise to me that our financial crash is corresponding with our social crash. Adam Smith and Edmund Burke were not only contemporaries, but they were also close friends. Their philosophies are not only compatible, but synergistic.



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:58 PM (bb5+k)

464 449 -

With all due respect, Ace, that is poppycock.

The average child is an amoral monster. We TEACH them to behave empathically... or at least we used to. This is the big problem we seem to be having in this world at this time, too many people growing up WITHOUT a sense of right and wrong, based on anything like a sense of duty toward their fellow men.

I swear, I'm not being snotty when I say this, but didn't you see what just happened in that last election???

Posted by: BurtTC at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (BeSEI)

465 This happened two towns over. Work let out early so people could deal. Pictures of grieving parents are hard to take. Still, not a time for moralizing. A time for grieving.

Posted by: Cricket at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (2ArJQ)

466 @BCochran, @Ace, @Merovign, @nevergiveup - I think we're approaching consensus here, right? Some professionally trained presence, *apart* from and hired (maybe volunteer, maybe a budget line item) by the school district (so teachers/principals aren't running around trying to deal with it; they would in a lot of cases be emotionally compromised, I believe), ideally ex-cop or ex-military.

Local civilian control, professionally trained service. Right?

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (6QYh/)

467 >>>Absolutely; absent a belief in an absolute morality, I can find no rational reason to behave in a moral manner. My most rational course would be to publicly proclaim the collectivist utility of common morality while privately going about whatever my heart desired.

that is you attempting to guess at your own mental state were your mental state entirely different than it actually is. I do not believe you (or most anyone) is very good at imagining "What I would be if I were completely different."

I believe your imagination fails you. I believe that even if you didn't believe in God, you'd still have a series of impulses towards empathy and order.

And to some extent even Christians believe this because if I asked about morality in pre-Christian ages -- like "Account for the moral persons in such ages" -- you'd say something like (I think, because I think I've heard this before) "the power of the Holy Spirit was felt on earth in people's consciences before Christ was born," and that sort of thing.

So I'm not sure what we're talking about. You may believe that God is the fount of all morality, and the source of it, but a *belief* in God or Christ is not strictly necessary, as you'd admit (I assume) if I asked you to explain the morality of a Mahatma Gandhi, or King David (pre-Christ, obviously), or any of a hundred thousand other heathens who I imagine would be acknowledged to be mostly moral even if not Godly and not saved.


Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (LCRYB)

468 When I'm aghast I try to stand near an open window or some other method to diffuse the situation.

Posted by: ontherocks at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (aZ6ew)

469 You're not thinking solipsistically. I understand why society wouldn't want cruelty, murder and selfishness...but why should *I* voluntarily restrain my behavior in this way?

You can't exist solipsistically. Outside of the skinner box, at least...

Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 07:00 PM (bGwJy)

470 >>>The average child is an amoral monster. We TEACH them to behave empathically... or at least we used to.

well that is true too, but I think the "teaching" consists of teaching children to associate the pain they feel (and know intimately) when hurt or menaced with the feeling others would experience under similar circumstances.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (LCRYB)

471 ideally ex-cop or ex-military.

Local civilian control, professionally trained service. Right?
Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (6QYh/)

Sounds like a plan

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (jE38p)

472 i think the "moral relativity/absolute morality" dichotomy is overstated sometimes. most people have a set of morals, but they vary from person to person, and you could argue some of the more "lenient" beliefs have maybe become too utilitarian (is that the right word?) or "if it doesn't directly harm anyone who cares"-ish

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (60GaT)

473 451
I ask you what the world was like before they came along? The website "Bede's Library" has some very good essays on the role of Christianity in creating Western Civilization. It certainly abolished slavery. Would an Atheist society have done such a thing?

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (bb5+k)
---

Correlation is not the equivalent of causation. Natural economic forces would have rendered slavery obsolete regardless of the existence of Christianity.

On that note, Christianity did not bestow empathy on humans. Empathy is an adaptive trait just as good moral principles are likely to be. People will refrain from stealing in the absence of religion because they know that to be caught means social and economic ostracism, for instance.

I know this isn't Hot Air but I still feel I should add the disclaimer that I am a Christian and I believe that the presence of Christianity in a society is very likely to increase it's overall level of morality.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (BgIBZ)

474 "436 "scorekeeper in the sky" is a bit of a glib way of dismissing arguments on whether fixed morality can exist apart from God

although i don't think atheists are dumb or w/e

Oh, it can certainly exist. For instance, a shame culture can do the job if there is morality based on tradition.

But morality itself is not rational.

The popular philosophy now is that we have some sort of biological aversion to extreme immoral acts such as murder. Maybe that's true, but it doesn't contradict the thesis that morality is irrational. In fact, it simply supports the idea.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 06:51 PM (b65cm) "

A shame culture would be (and is) inherently totalitarian and dystopian. (Not to mention irrational.)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (AoWJ4)

475
They don't deserve to die in fear and pain.

You're right. No one deserves most of the shit that life shovels at them daily.

Seriously, come back and read what I'm going to tell you after you calm down a bit, maybe tomorrow: You must have a belief system, or else you'll drive yourself crazy if you continue. I know, because I was that way once. I was fortunate enough to hear the right words at the right time and it made all the difference in how I approach this world and all the bullshit in it.

I choose to believe in a God, His Son, the Ten Commandments, Heaven and an afterlife. I have no proof of their existence save what I've been told and what I can see. For a long time, I didn't believe and I was an asshole because of that. I'm still somewhat of an ass, but I'm better than I was.

My point is, it's not out of the realm of possibility that we get what we believe in. If you think there's no Heaven, then it's entirely possible that you'll never experience it. You gotta believe in something, and I believe in Goodness. Unfortunately, there's not much of that in this part of life, so it's up to me to make as many good things happen as possible. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't, but I still try.

Call me naive if you wish, I don't care. My belief system helps me tremendously in times like these: there is a Heaven and a benevolent loving God rules there. Our souls are eternal and go on to live a life without time or space, in a spiritual dimension we can only guess at. Tonight, there are a few more there a little earlier than planned.

After it's all said and done, our beliefs are just about all we have.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 07:02 PM (yiIja)

476 i should probably say almost all people

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 07:02 PM (60GaT)

477 Actually, it's all Spocks. It's just that Spock would be "a sociopath."

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 06:48 PM (AoWJ4)


Niccolo Machiavelli quite coldly and logically advocated murder to gain and preserve power. He certainly wasn't advocating a Christian principle in this.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:02 PM (bb5+k)

478 467 >>>Absolutely; absent a belief in an absolute morality, I can find no rational reason to behave in a moral manner.

---

Tell that to the thieves sent to the gallows, the murderers drawn and quartered, the adulterers run out of town, the rapists hung, the countless despots beheaded by their people.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (BgIBZ)

479 "438
Also, bullsith.

Posted by: iKant at December 14, 2012 06:42 PM (bGwJy)

Great rebuttal. I will point out that Atheist Stalin and Atheist Mao and Atheist Pol Pot collectively killed over 100 million people.


I see nothing wrong with their conduct if judged by their own logic.





Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:51 PM (bb5+k) "

Shhh.

Don't think.

Thinking is wrong. And is against the will of No-God. And Science.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (AoWJ4)

480 @467

So, we are going to debate "Natural Law"?

Sound good to me, where is Paul Ryan when you need him?

Posted by: Billy Bob, the guy who drinks in SC at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (wR+pz)

481 Isn't Islam a shame culture? Killing your daughter over the family honor? I'll pass on that thanks.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (K1JW0)

482 I, too, have been diagnosed with Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder.

It manifests in 80 hour work weeks. Not in homocidal thoughts.

There's always an excuse, isn't there?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (VYMfF)

483 I am not given to hysterics but the prison planet guy is probably not entirely wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2h1QNTQDnoU

I have never seen so much coverage of an event - everyone everywhere in the nyc media, except for the local fox station, has been covering the story non-stop since it happened.

Posted by: yankeefifth at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (Z9EHQ)

484 And to some extent even Christians believe this because if I asked about morality in pre-Christian ages -- like "Account for the moral persons in such ages" -- you'd say something like (I think, because I think I've heard this before) "the power of the Holy Spirit was felt on earth in people's consciences before Christ was born," and that sort of thing.

So I'm not sure what we're talking about. You may believe that God is the fount of all morality, and the source of it, but a *belief* in God or Christ is not strictly necessary, as you'd admit (I assume) if I asked you to explain the morality of a Mahatma Gandhi, or King David (pre-Christ, obviously), or any of a hundred thousand other heathens who I imagine would be acknowledged to be mostly moral even if not Godly and not saved.


Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (LCRYB)


--Pssst, Natural Law. The Founding Fathers, even the non-religious ones, believed in it.

Posted by: logprof at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (LMgaP)

485 Phillips also found in his landmark 1974 study of copycat suicides the increased fatalities by suicide, automobile and plane fatalities peaked three days after a widely publicized suicide. It's no coincidence the Oregon mall shooting occurred on Tuesday and this guy decided to do this today. Keep that in mind the more people publicize this guys name and mental condition. More effective than gun control in stopping this sort of thing would be the complete embargo of the assailants identity, motive, means and methods until after the investigation is completed. Remove the social proof and you remove the final motivating factor. Explanation article on copycat suicides and social proof linked below.
http://goo.gl/3p4y3

Posted by: Exasperated Expat at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (gkfSV)

486 If you're crying about 20 dead kids but not 3287 dead kidsEVERY DAY well to a certain extent maybe you just like to cry in public. So much of what is being said across the webseems likejust people trying to demonstrate their more-sensitive-than-thou. As was said before, how many kids were killed by car accidents today? Is that less a tragedy or loss? What are ya gonna do, cry all day every day? Every minute spent beleaguring this issue just plays into the hands who wish to use public concern as a justification to curtail our liberties.

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (XDC0v)

487 467 >>>Absolutely; absent a belief in an absolute morality, I can find no rational reason to behave in a moral manner.
---

If you have any faith whatsoever in the most basic Western economic principles your argument is moot.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 07:04 PM (BgIBZ)

488 Well, I think moral sentiment is inborn. I think you probably believe
that too but ascribe it to God. Whereas I ascribe it to built-in
empathy functions.



A strict rationalist will cry when he sees a child crying.



But either way we agree that there is an inborn sense of morality.


I'd argue it comes from empathy. We have been hurt, so we identify with the victim. But again, irrational.


There is also a component of egocentric ethics. Most people have a
preference to be Good, or at least be thought of that way (or think of
themselves that way).


OK, so there is some emotional utility about acting according to a moral code. But I would think there is also some emotional utility from hurting your enemies, or more specifically, the ones who violate your moral code.

There's a reason that schadenfraude starts with schaden.

I know this kind of thing is hard to deal with. We like to think of ourselves as good people (most of us) but if you sit and think about it or your elevator doesn't quite go to the top, you realize that you should just take that iPad sitting on the table over there. No one will know. Why not download that movie? Those Hollywood types make too much money anyway. Plus, I don't agree with the copyright laws.

I'm glad people act irrationally. I just don't want them to realize it. It's pretty much an axiom of conservatism that human nature isn't so nice.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 07:04 PM (b65cm)

489 470 -

Which is precisely due to the fact that western civilization has been dominated by Judeo-Christian morals and ethics for centuries.

We're losing that at our own peril. People want to try it a different way, and I can kinda sorta see why some people don't like the religion thing, but THEY HAVE NO IDEA what comes next, because they don't equate the horror we've seen, mostly in the last century, to this loss of Judeo-Christian values.


Posted by: BurtTC at December 14, 2012 07:05 PM (BeSEI)

490 a cultural can accpt different codes of conduct as late as several decades ago we found tribes eating people . for reasons of recieving their attributes or just to eat?

so what you are taught what is the norm for you and your environment.
in america the norm would pretty well be considered as people know them 10 commands or utterances.s



ace on that post yesterday there waas still left a post 253 i blieve.

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:05 PM (nqBYe)

491 but I think the "teaching" consists of teaching children to associate the pain they feel (and know intimately) when hurt or menaced with the feeling others would experience under similar circumstances.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (LCRYB)


Well it's not just teaching kids about pain and bad and stuff like that, but also, and even more important...It's teaching kids about doing the right thing, about doing the moral thing, it's about teaching kids about the common good and about sacrificing for others. Liberals like to make fun of patriotism and things like "American Exceptionalism" but concepts like that always seemed to do us good in the past and with the breakdown of those concepts, it seems civil behavior in this Country has suffered for the worse.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 07:05 PM (jE38p)

492 Until liberals change their tune on institutionalizing crazy people, conservatives shouldn't change their tune on gun control.

Posted by: Stephen at December 14, 2012 07:05 PM (ufSM/)

493 >>>I'm aghast at the crudeness of this idea that if we

didn't have Christians around we wouldn't realize that cruelty, murder,

and selfishness were bad.

I'm not talking about Christian per se. Just an absolute moral authority. We call him God. Others use different names. I cannot, in the absence of God, ascribe more meaning to life than is a complex endothermic chemical reaction fueled by a nearby star. It has no meaning, it simply is. Like a rock simply is. I can find no inherent good or evil in continuing any part of that chemical reaction, or causing some part of that reaction to halt.

Philosophers have long struggled with giving themselves the ability to define a morality in absence of a God. I have yet to see a compelling argument that objectively gives life any more meaning or value than random dust floating in space without first presupposing a subjective relativistic "good" of pure manufacture.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 07:05 PM (0q2P7)

494 "442 The avg person wasn't view spanish inquisitions for 3 hrs every night.
Torquemada is a really bad counter-argument.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 06:53 PM (ZPrif) "

But it's politically correct and stupid.


(Like most of Heather's comments after Obama's reapotheosis.)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:05 PM (AoWJ4)

495 Just had to leave my support group when they started literally blaming me for this 20 mins ago. I am ticked off. I have to go back and lock up the damn church in an hour. Two of them started off on the GOP and NRA and then "One said there 's one sitting here" said "you're one aren't you?" I was just sitting there silent until then.

Posted by: Baldy at December 14, 2012 07:05 PM (tlg68)

496 Home school kids: there goes expensive, intrusive, incompetent, malicious local, state and federal involvement in their lives.

Say goodbye to NEA, PTA, social workers taking girls to doctors without your consent (free of accountability to you, their parents),SEIU and AFSCME goons retained at your expense.

Say goodbye to the chance that your children will be sacrificed to the failure of courts, legislators, regulators, litigators and administrators.

Keep your kids at home and find out how good they are and how good you can be to them. Take them with you everywhere you go and find out how soon you own life improves in all respects.

Posted by: DM at December 14, 2012 07:06 PM (BDHOa)

497 I'm sure there's some pudgy little atheist on earth who scores himself every day.

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 07:06 PM (BVkEs)

498 Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 07:02 PM (yiIja)

Nicely put my friend. And my thoughts exactly.

Today is a sad day.

Posted by: LGoPs at December 14, 2012 07:06 PM (4x8W0)

499 in most of the ME the norm is islam,
so beliefs in good and evil would be different

and conduct is different

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (nqBYe)

500 So I'm not sure what we're talking about. You may
believe that God is the fount of all morality, and the source of it, but
a *belief* in God or Christ is not strictly necessary, as you'd admit
(I assume) if I asked you to explain the morality of a Mahatma Gandhi,
or King David (pre-Christ, obviously), or any of a hundred thousand
other heathens who I imagine would be acknowledged to be mostly moral
even if not Godly and not saved.


Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (LCRYB)



They're all in hell.

Posted by: Dante at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (hpYnL)

501 Ever notice that these mass shootings involve young men, often with meandering and purposeless lives?

Maybe, just maybe, the problem isn't the gun, but that we have a society that far to readily relegates young men as nothing more that grown children with meandering and purposeless lives?

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (XvHmy)

502 I'm aghast at the crudeness of the idea that Western
civilization could even have developed in the complete absence of
Judeo-Christianity, so there's that.


Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at December 14, 2012 06:50 PM (K1JW0)

And a point I make often is that there are older civilizations (Chinese, Roman, Egyptian) but none which developed the values we now consider the characteristics of Western Civilization. Why did the Christianized part of the world lead in Science and Technology? It's because the ideas of those societies created the circumstances in which the advancement of knowledge could occur.

The Muslims, the Hindus, the Shintos, the Buddhists etc. all had to play catch up after the fact.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (bb5+k)

503 Which is precisely due to the fact that western civilization has been dominated by Judeo-Christian morals and ethics for centuries.

We're losing that at our own peril. People want to try it a different way, and I can kinda sorta see why some people don't like the religion thing, but THEY HAVE NO IDEA what comes next, because they don't equate the horror we've seen, mostly in the last century, to this loss of Judeo-Christian values.


Posted by: BurtTC at December 14, 2012 07:05 PM (BeSEI)

Yes that also to add to what I said above. Good point

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (jE38p)

504 We only have EIGHT days left. Let's be happy and post positive posts.

Where is that video of the girl dancing in the bikini from last night?

Posted by: Billy Bob, the guy who drinks in SC at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (wR+pz)

505 I don't think you guys really understand. . Empathy is a fairly passive process for most people. We teach right from wrong, connections are formed, they realize other people exist.

Not so with Autistic kids. They will never "feel" empathy. They can understand it at an academic level, and act empathetic, but they don't feel it.

Posted by: Lauren at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (vgyox)

506 so ifyou are raisedin a culture where killing for reasons is valued

women for wearing a short skirt.

so it is a cultural norm here to not kill and reason it out.
what brought that norm to the west?

or blief in killing v murder?

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:09 PM (nqBYe)

507 >>>i think the "moral relativity/absolute morality" dichotomy is overstated sometimes.

I think it's often overstated. I think the whole argument is largely confused -- or, at least the way people talk, they seem confused to me, or define this concept in very different ways. They confuse me, at the very least.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:09 PM (LCRYB)

508 They're all in hell.


Posted by: Dante at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (hpYnL)
True dat. Hard for non Christians to get a handle on that. Only one way to heaven boys, and it's not going down to the yoga place and doing chants.

Posted by: Billy Bob, the guy who drinks in SC at December 14, 2012 07:09 PM (wR+pz)

509 475 "No one deserves most of the shit that life shovels at them daily." Well yes and no. As a Christian you know what you "deserve". But almost without exception when people talk about not getting what they deserve they're complaining that they deserve BETTER. The concept of deserveis a product of a sense of entitlement. It's nonsensical without that sense. We better all hope we don't get what we deserve-

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:09 PM (XDC0v)

510 "444
Not to be insensitive, but over 40,000 Americans die every year just in traffic accidents. Where are all the people calling for vehicles to be banned?
The way we (as a society) react to things isn't rationale. My heart truly goes out to these families. Unimaginably horrible, truly. Ifsomething like this happened to one of my kids I don't now how I'd react, I can't comprehend it, doesn't even compute. But with that said, is the suffering of a family who's child was killed by some madman at school any worse than the suffering of a family who had their child killed in a car accident today? Across the USA how many elementary-school-aged children were killed in car accidents today?
I'm just saying, this event is now going to dominate the news for the next month, and continue on as a majortopic for well long after that.

Posted by: Andrew at December 14, 2012 06:53 PM (UN8O5) "

Of course it isn't rational. How would you expect a society comprised of Atheists, i.e. de facto animals ruled by their emotions and instincts and nothing else, to react. How about an ideologically-partisan Media comprised of fanatical Atheists intent on social engineering?

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:10 PM (AoWJ4)

511 >>>If you have any faith whatsoever in the most basic Western economic principles your argument is moot.

My argument is moot because I believe in God not the market place. Had I no belief in God, I would likely be on the other side, quietly lying my way to wealth and power. I hold rationality in a very high regard. It is my faith that keeps me from using it for evil.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 07:10 PM (0q2P7)

512 So I'm not sure what we're talking about. You may believe that God is the fount of all morality, and the source of it, but a *belief* in God or Christ is not strictly necessary, as you'd admit (I assume) if I asked you to explain the morality of a Mahatma Gandhi, or King David (pre-Christ, obviously), or any of a hundred thousand other heathens who I imagine would be acknowledged to be mostly moral even if not Godly and not saved.
Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (LCRYB)


----------------------------------------------------


The Ten Commandments came long before Christ. And it was believed then as it is now that it was written or, at the least, was a devine inspiration to Moses. It's where our contemporary sense of morality springs.

It's easy now to say one gets his ability to discern right from wrong from a natural order, when the society that he lives has dictated the very commandments that Moses recieved thousands of years ago.

One has to ask, also; why did God and/or Moses find the need for the Commandments in the first place?

Posted by: Soona at December 14, 2012 07:10 PM (1CXqI)

513 I don't think you guys really understand. . Empathy is a fairly passive process for most people. We teach right from wrong, connections are formed, they realize other people exist.

Not so with Autistic kids. They will never "feel" empathy. They can understand it at an academic level, and act empathetic, but they don't feel it.
Posted by: Lauren at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (vgyox)


I don't think it was all directed just to this incident ( were the shooter might be Autistic ) but to the violence in general

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 07:10 PM (jE38p)

514 "This is also why we now immediately search for a gunman's political affiliation-- because we know that's the first thing you do."

Like it's ever mattered.

The sick f*** in AZ was a Giffords supporter who was pissed she wasn't going full throttle on a leftist agenda.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Posted by: Dadof3 at December 14, 2012 07:10 PM (rCI3n)

515
Yeah, I'll listen to Glenn Close ( widely known for being the bat-shit crazy broad in "Fatal Attraction ) preaching about crazy people , right after I listen to Robert Wagner (widely know for his series "It Takes A Thief) about the great deal I'll get with a reverse mortgage.
I'm showing my age........

Posted by: seamrog at December 14, 2012 07:10 PM (7BGqm)

516 The Greek philosophers (and Ayn Rand) believed that rational thought can go with morality. Its pretty simple really. If society encourages morality and punishes thieves and killers things can run much more smoothly than if almost everyone around us feels that the only thing that should stop them from stealing or trying to kill us and rob our corpse is whether we will personally catch them and over power them. Belief in an afterlife and God can be a good aid to stick to morality in hard personal times, and a soothing thought that the good will be rewarded and scumbags punished by God even if humans mess up but it is not a needed element for morality.


The problem today is that communists, regardless of how they self label, are purposefully trying to destroy 'western' society by destroying personal morality with every weapon they can find.

Posted by: PaleRider at December 14, 2012 07:10 PM (dkExz)

517 >>>They're all in hell.

I was told that a number of them were "clutched to Abraham's bosom" and went to Heaven with the righteous pre-Christian Jews.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:10 PM (LCRYB)

518 In general when there is a horrible tragedy:

1) people panic
2) politicians promote severe legislation to score points
3) draconian ill-considered legislation passes.
4) risk of horrible tragedy has not decreased, law-abiding citizens are now harrassed or jailed.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (uhAkr)

519 "445 I see nothing wrong with their conduct if judged by their own logic.
Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:51 PM (bb5+k)


Right there is your problem.
Morality is not relative.
Neither is logic/reason.


Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 06:53 PM (bGwJy) "

Not much of a philosopher, are you?


(But you're an Atheist, so you're better than everyone else...)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (AoWJ4)

520 Lauren is that true for all autistic children?

and i;m suere there are many variables that would go into this type of outcome?

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (nqBYe)

521
>>>The average child is an amoral monster. We TEACH them to behave empathically... or at least we used to.


well that is true too, but I think the "teaching" consists of teaching children to associate the pain they feel (and know intimately) when hurt or menaced with the feeling others would experience under similar circumstances.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (LCRYB)

----------

Which is basically..."Do unto others asyou would have done unto you".

Posted by: wheatie at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (K4wCe)

522 Stuff like this happens in Israel all the time. Think how small that country is meaning, they are more likely to be connected to the victims.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (0Ufr+)

523 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (bb5+k)

Just, wow.

Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (bGwJy)

524 495 BB That's a shit support group

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (XDC0v)

525
@ace
"Well, I think moral sentiment is inborn."
The sentiment may be inborn, but can it not be overcome? I agree with AmishDude, logic can be a dark, dark place. The fact is that either a higher moral authority (aka God) does exist or not. If not, then there is no right or wrong, period. You can talk about inborn feel goods all you want but this is like wishing you could fly. If there is no higher authority and no eternal purpose, then truly, what is the point? The world could end today, the whole planet explode in a burst of light, and so what? What does it matter? I had no meaning. Not good, not bad, just is. See the dark places this logic is already taking me...?

Posted by: Andrew at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (UN8O5)

526 So, that still small voice inside everyone is an atheist?

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (BVkEs)

527 One has to ask, also; why did God and/or Moses find the need for the Commandments in the first place?

Posted by: Soona at December 14, 2012 07:10 PM (1CXqI)

Other than the fact the masses were building a golden calf and doing G-Dless things at the bottom of the Mountain?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 07:12 PM (jE38p)

528 "448 >>>Is that the only thing that keeps YOU on the straight and narrow? If so, you're not so much moral as calculatedly risk-averse.

Absolutely; absent a belief in an absolute morality, I can find no rational reason to behave in a moral manner. My most rational course would be to publicly proclaim the collectivist utility of common morality while privately going about whatever my heart desired. In short, everyone should follow rules of morality but me. Fortunately in that case, absent that absolute metaphysical arbitrator all the lies that I would have to tell proclaiming myself to be a deep believer in morality while privately shunning it would be also morally neutral. So it remains in my mind that the moral atheist is either lying to me, or holding an irrational belief in a detached absolute standard of conduct and meaning that cannot be objectively explained. This has always caused me some anxiety when dealing with the proclaimed atheist. I have to depend upon either their whim, or irrationality, to act morally. I tend to think that many atheists don't get that when they espouse that morality does exist as something more than a relativistic construct, in necessarily follows, as with any game that actually has a score, a referee also exists to keep it.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (0q2P7) "

Most of this. Brilliant.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:13 PM (AoWJ4)

529 i think empathy in most cases has to be taught,
how to pet a kitten not carry it by its neck.
etc..

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:13 PM (nqBYe)

530 Well, maybe there is MORE than one way to heaven. I hope she is coming!



http://tinyurl.com/7dhfrl2


Don't worry, be happy.

Posted by: Billy Bob, the guy who drinks in SC at December 14, 2012 07:13 PM (wR+pz)

531 Stuff like this happens in Israel all the time. Think how small that country is meaning, they are more likely to be connected to the victims.
Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (0Ufr+)


HA? Stuff like this does NOT happen in Israel all the time?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 07:14 PM (jE38p)

532 First cop on the scene - I have bodies, send ambulances.
How many?
All of them.

Sad, sad recording of the police scanner
http://tinyurl.com/buv7pyq

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 07:14 PM (2t6Gz)

533 well that is true too, but I think the "teaching" consists of teaching
children to associate the pain they feel (and know intimately) when hurt
or menaced with the feeling others would experience under similar
circumstances.


But we can get over that.

Most people are squeamish over the sight of blood because we identify with the patient or the injured party. We imagine what it's like to have the knife cut into us.

But we do manage to train surgeons who successfully detach themselves from such feelings.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 07:14 PM (b65cm)

534
Hey Brudda Billy Bob here's that treat you were so wisely asking for. Borderline Sociopathic Blog for Boys is awesome on a regular basis: http://tinyurl.com/cxfforw

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:14 PM (XDC0v)

535 >>Not much of a philosopher, are you? (But you're an Atheist, so you're better than everyone else...)

That's funny on more than a few levels.

Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 07:14 PM (bGwJy)

536 This segment of Brian Williams' newscast brought to you by the Brady Center To End Gun Violence.

Posted by: The Only Logical Solution Is Gun Control at December 14, 2012 07:14 PM (4TBK2)

537 We should leave fighting absurdity with absurdity to the absurd.

Posted by: Truman North (D) at December 14, 2012 07:15 PM (I2LwF)

538 "449 >>>So tell me: If I want to kill myself and there's no Scorekeeper in the Sky and I'm simply depressed and know that my existence will end in 24 hours, what reason can you provide for me not to get some pleasure out of hurting my enemies?

>>>Logic is a dark, dark place. It ain't all rainbows and Spocks.

Well, I think moral sentiment is inborn. I think you probably believe that too but ascribe it to God. Whereas I ascribe it to built-in empathy functions.

A strict rationalist will cry when he sees a child crying.

But either way we agree that there is an inborn sense of morality.

There is also a component of egocentric ethics. Most people have a preference to be Good, or at least be thought of that way (or think of themselves that way).


Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (LCRYB) "

"A strict rationalist will cry when he sees a child crying."

...

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:15 PM (AoWJ4)

539
I know! Next time, let's leave the development of civilization to the muzzies! What could possibly go wrong?

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at December 14, 2012 06:57 PM (53riN)

And that reinforces the point. The Muslim civilizations peaked centuries ago, without ever achieving anything as advanced as did the Christian civilizations. Same thing with the Chinese civilization which is several thousand years old.

I argue that the world advanced into the light of knowledge BECAUSE of the widespread adoption of Christianity. It is the principles of Christianity that made what used to be our civilization possible. As these principles have been eschewed, so has the nation declined.






Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:15 PM (bb5+k)

540 I'm looking back at, say, the 1300s to 1400s, with constant rape, murder, vicious war conducted largely against defenseless peasants (look at this nasty little tactic, popular in the English wars in Frace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e ), more rape, more murder, theft, constant bastardy and cuckolding, etc.

Anyway that was in a completely Christianized Europe.

I just have trouble seeing that More Christianization = More Morality.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:15 PM (LCRYB)

541 Sad, listening to that scanner broke me up for the first time today. Just fucking sad.

Posted by: Whatev at December 14, 2012 07:16 PM (2t6Gz)

542 >> more rape

We like rape.

Posted by: Andy at December 14, 2012 07:16 PM (OZPoa)

543 527 The purpose of the Commandments was to establish the need for redemption through Jesus's ransom sacrifice.

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:16 PM (XDC0v)

544 524 DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (XDC0v)- The meeting did not start yet . There all libs except for me .Most everyone loves me, but on da y s like this (big news) some get carried away.

Posted by: Baldy at December 14, 2012 07:17 PM (tlg68)

545 Local civilian control, professionally trained service. Right?

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (6QYh/)


I think we are all (your list and you) closer together than the elected clowns and the professional pontificators.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 07:17 PM (bxiXv)

546
If he comes up clean, as it looks he will, I feel for the shooter's brother.
He lost a goodly part of his family in one day and was falsely accused. He must be in shock tonight, along with all the other families who lost someone they loved. It's a horrific path they all have ahead of them.

Posted by: Who Knows at December 14, 2012 07:17 PM (W+Itt)

547 Good conscientious posting Ace.

Asperger's is a "sexy diagnosis" these days....

wonder if he was really ill or just a pretty pony?

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:17 PM (LRFds)

548 "454 1.2 Million abortions per year in the United States divided by 365 days equals 3287 babies aborted just TODAY. Perspective. Which one motivates the country to change things?

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 06:55 PM (XDC0v) "

This. But I fear it's a lost cause.


As long as Atheists are certain that they are better than everyone else... what can be done?

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:17 PM (AoWJ4)

549 So I'm not sure what we're talking about. You may
believe that God is the fount of all morality, and the source of it, but
a *belief* in God or Christ is not strictly necessary, as you'd admit
(I assume) if I asked you to explain the morality of a Mahatma Gandhi,
or King David (pre-Christ, obviously), or any of a hundred thousand
other heathens who I imagine would be acknowledged to be mostly moral
even if not Godly and not saved.







Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (LCRYB)


Flowers in a field of weeds. Isn't it much better to have a few weeds in a field of Flowers?



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:17 PM (bb5+k)

550 HA? Stuff like this does NOT happen in Israel all the time?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 07:14 PM (jE38p)

True dat. Why? When I went over two years ago, we ran into a school group at a tourist site. They had four soldiers with M-16 escorting them about, and no one seems a bit upset about it. I sure wasn't.

Posted by: Billy Bob, the guy who drinks in SC at December 14, 2012 07:17 PM (wR+pz)

551 If society encourages morality and punishes thieves and killers things
can run much more smoothly than if almost everyone around us feels that
the only thing that should stop them from stealing or trying to kill us
and rob our corpse is whether we will personally catch them and over
power them.


Once again they presuppose a subjective value "smooth society" whose value cannot be objectively measured. Even if you were to break that down to quality of life or poverty it would still be subjective. Which is why objectivism fails close inspection, as it makes subjective assumptions. The greeks to, had to presuppose subjective goods in order to ethically define things.

In either event neither objectivism nor the greeks solved the rational "everyone follows the rules but me" problem of relativistic morality.

To say that something exists as an absolute which can only be asserted as an idea means it transcends
human existence. Meaning again, if their is a score, than there must be a
scorekeeper.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 07:17 PM (0q2P7)

552 I argue that the world advanced into the light of knowledge BECAUSE of the widespread adoption of Christianity. It is the principles of Christianity that made what used to be our civilization possible. As these principles have been eschewed, so has the nation declined.






Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:15 PM (bb5+k)

key ideas. even if many Americans are not practicing Christians or do not have any understanding of Christianity, the centuries old influence of Christianity on the fabric of America has resulted in s substantially different, and better, culture from that of non-Chrisitan countries. Forgiveness is an essential element of a Christian nation and culture and provides meaningful benefits to a country - lack of forgiveness is a disadvantage.

Posted by: yankeefifth at December 14, 2012 07:18 PM (Z9EHQ)

553 Other than the fact the masses were building a golden calf and doing G-Dless things at the bottom of the Mountain?
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 07:12 PM (jE38p)


-------------------------------------------


Sort of like dancing around a champaign-bottle castle at a Jay Z party?

Posted by: Soona at December 14, 2012 07:18 PM (1CXqI)

554 "456 There is a ratcheting effect. The gore on a CSI episode would've been R rated 20 years ago.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at December 14, 2012 06:44 PM (ZPrif)

I'm not sure about that. The series' "Friday the 13th" and "War of the Worlds" were around back then. WOTW had alien arms exploding from people's bodies. In prime-time.

There were certainly times when gore was less common, but it's not like we're a different revision of the human genome than 50 or 100 years ago.

I mean, how long ago was it that we had public hangings and beheadings and shootings and such?

People have a little bit of nostalgia, I think. That doesn't mean some things weren't better, just that we overestimate that.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 06:56 PM (bxiXv) "

And some people have the need to be nonsequiturial apologists for the status quo.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:19 PM (AoWJ4)

555 I just have trouble seeing that More Christianization = More Morality.


Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:15 PM

Martin Luther King had it figured out. More self respect and respect for others leads to a better collective morality.

Posted by: Beto at December 14, 2012 07:19 PM (BAnPT)

556 oh and to be clear, I know several posters here have loved ones with autism and or Asperger's...I am *not* making light of it but noticed a LOT of people who slef-diagnosed with it on my brief foray into twitter.

Thoughts and prayers for us all...

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:20 PM (LRFds)

557 >>>As long as Atheists are certain that they are better than everyone else... what can be done?

As far as I can tell the "Better Than You" is something you seem fixed on. And AmishDude suggested something like that earlier.

It's usually best to try to push ego-based stuff down in an argument. I see no reason to derail a generally good discussion into a "You Think You're Better Than Me??!" bloodbath.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:20 PM (LCRYB)

558 548 I agree. Actually if you want to push the issue this whole incident is just an element of the process of natural selection. Which is outside "morality". If atheism is to have any internal consistency-

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:20 PM (XDC0v)

559 300 dead Mexicans from Obama'a gun running scheme. Did the leftards cry "Gun Control!" then ,too?

Posted by: T.Hunter at December 14, 2012 07:21 PM (EZl54)

560 You may

believe that God is the fount of all morality, and the source of it, but

a *belief* in God or Christ is not strictly necessary, as you'd admit


I'd admit all of that. I believe God gives us a natural link to his morality. It's the belief in that morality by someone who ardently professes a belief that no higher power exists I regard as irrational. Not to say that person cannot be moral, they still have a link to morality as I've said, only that their decision to be moral is not logically based.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 07:21 PM (0q2P7)

561 Well, I guess it's settled. If there was no public schooling, those children and the teachers would be alive. We should ban public schools and encourage, if not force, home schooling.

Posted by: Bizarro Bob Costas at December 14, 2012 07:21 PM (eHIJJ)

562 "Correlation is not the equivalent of causation.
Natural economic forces would have rendered slavery obsolete regardless
of the existence of Christianity.
"


But they didn't in all previous civilizations of which I am aware. I also argue those economic forces of which you speak may very well not have occurred but for the Western Industry which was spawned by Christian Principles.





"On that note, Christianity did not bestow empathy on humans.
Empathy is an adaptive trait just as good moral principles are likely to
be. People will refrain from stealing in the absence of religion
because they know that to be caught means social and economic ostracism,
for instance.
"


Concepts that primarily apply only between members of a tribe. The notion that outsiders should be treated as brothers is completely alien to the thinking of a normal Pre-Christian City State. "Others" were fair game.




"I know this isn't Hot Air but I still feel I should add the
disclaimer that I am a Christian and I believe that the presence of
Christianity in a society is very likely to increase it's overall level
of morality."

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (BgIBZ)

Of that I am convinced.



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:22 PM (bb5+k)

563 559 Word. Republicans should be running with that HARD

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:22 PM (XDC0v)

564 548 I agree. Actually if you want to push the issue this whole incident is just an element of the process of natural selection. Which is outside "morality". If atheism is to have any internal consistency-
Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:20 PM (XDC0v)

now you are striking at the core of the problem in the conservative - liberal contest - logical coherence.

liberalism/socialism/communism are illogical at their cores - the more quickly this is brought to the for of our dialogue the sooner.

Posted by: yankeefifth at December 14, 2012 07:23 PM (Z9EHQ)

565 You have to jump through a lot of hoops in New Jersey to purchase firearms including background checks, mental health forms and two separate written references. It's going to be interesting to see if he bought them or not. Also, autistic but had no problem operating the weapons or dressing like a commando for the occasion or driving across states to find a specific location.

I guess he was super "high functioning"

Posted by: SamIam at December 14, 2012 07:23 PM (S09w5)

566 I see a conversion in your future, Ace. You seem to think about religion and metaphysics a lot.

Posted by: L, elle at December 14, 2012 07:23 PM (ktPHV)

567 How much is "a few"?

Is 11 days before Christmas "a few" days before Christmas?

It is if you are me trying to exploit a tragedy in order to sway the public into giving up more of their constitutional rights!

HaHaHa!!!!

Posted by: Brian Williams at December 14, 2012 07:23 PM (AzwZn)

568
Tell that to the thieves sent to the gallows,
the murderers drawn and quartered, the adulterers run out of town, the
rapists hung, the countless despots beheaded by their people.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (BgIBZ)


And the reason they committed their crimes? Because they never envisioned themselves as ending up being punished. Likewise, what of the ones who got away?


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:24 PM (bb5+k)

569 555 Beto,

correct my son asked 'why?" today and I explained to him that the severe ass chewing I gave him on trying to hide his failings on an algebra section were to teach him how to cope with failure, moral failure, and to slay his imaginary friend the hyper-perfected imaginary 'him"

and that in all likelihood the shooter never had been taught how to be self-critical at all.

The "great trick" as a parent I am beating my head into a wall over(and that is likely the warring cry of parents since we descended from the trees) is teaching a child to be self-analytical without being self-defeating to fail with grace and use it to fuel the drive to better themselves and integrity.....

I do so wish it did not feel like the academy is saying "fuck you" to my efforts.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:24 PM (LRFds)

570 ace, glad you're around. Been wanting to suggest a book to ya.
It's called The Case for Christ by Lee Stroebel.
Even if the subject matter isn't something you think you'd get into I truly think the way it is put together is something you would really get into and appreciate.
Check the Guy's background out and if he sounds like he might pass the "sharpness" test for ya, give the book a try.
It's not a long read and I can almost guarantee you a take away line that will stick with ya for quite some time.

Posted by: In Cognito at December 14, 2012 07:24 PM (HT2Nt)

571 >>>Not to say that person cannot be moral, they still have a link to morality as I've said, only that their decision to be moral is not logically based.

My desire to eat pizza is not logically based. Logic is a small part of our brains.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:24 PM (LCRYB)

572 You have to jump through a lot of hoops in New Jersey to purchase firearms including background checks, mental health forms and two separate written references. It's going to be interesting to see if he bought them or not. Also, autistic but had no problem operating the weapons or dressing like a commando for the occasion or driving across states to find a specific location.

I guess he was super "high functioning"
Posted by: SamIam at December 14, 2012 07:23 PM (S09w5)

presently appears his mom bought them.

Posted by: yankeefifth at December 14, 2012 07:25 PM (Z9EHQ)

573 I'm agnostic but I see the societal benefit of the church. If I ever had a kid, he's going every week, should at the very least pick up a few fundamentals of Western civilization.

Posted by: mugiwara at December 14, 2012 07:25 PM (hpYnL)

574 It's going to be interesting to see if he bought them or not. Also, autistic but had no problem operating the weapons or dressing like a commando for the occasion or driving across states to find a specific location.
Posted by: SamIam


The current information is that the guns were his mother's.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 14, 2012 07:25 PM (TtXjG)

575 I argue that the world advanced into the light of knowledge BECAUSE of the widespread adoption of Christianity.

I wouldn't. I'd argue that Islam was a net hindrance and Christianity may have been a net benefit (for too many reasons to get into here, but a lot of it came from the presence of the Reformation and the pluralism of Christianity) but I think China slowed because they unified quickly and, without war or capitalism, development just doesn't happen and people are satisfied with their peasant lifestyle.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 07:25 PM (b65cm)

576 564 Yep. Once evil has exposed itself for what it truly is it needs to be stomped AGGRESSIVELY. It just seems to me that Repub leadership is still trying to assume that the lib line is well-intentioned.

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:25 PM (XDC0v)

577 If only the "Gun Free" signs had been bigger. We blame ourselves.

They weren't in Spanish either. What were we thinking?

God, please forgive us.

Posted by: Sign Makers & Hangers Local at December 14, 2012 07:25 PM (wR+pz)

578 --Begin sarcasm--

It is clear we need to make all sufferers of Asperger's and Autism register with the government. There must be a 3 day waiting period before you can have the sufferer as well.


And a massive agency to regulate sufferers.

--End sarcasm--

Posted by: Deathknte at December 14, 2012 07:26 PM (TEf54)

579 Well Mike I believe in God myself. But I also believe that a society can define some common moral truths and raise their children to (mostly) follow those morals without a belief in Christ.

The communists are not only attacking Christianity although its a big foe for them, they are attacking all morality because 1) society looses morals and fails. 2????? 3) communists are in charge and world is magically perfect (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, ..... just did it wrong or something)

Posted by: PaleRider at December 14, 2012 07:26 PM (dkExz)

580 as I've been saying forever I think people lie to themselves about how "logical" they are.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:26 PM (LCRYB)

581
@ace,
"I just have trouble seeing that More Christianization = More Morality."
Define "Christian"
Just because some evil men were running around doing evil in the name of Christ doesn't make them right or make other Christians wrong. You make a good point, but now we're leading into a history of the world and purpose of life discussion. Why did Rome fall? We could discuss the strategy, and while interesting, I would argue all that relates to the how. When it comes to the why I would present a moral/spiritual argument.

Posted by: Andrew at December 14, 2012 07:26 PM (UN8O5)

582
I mean, how long ago was it that we had public hangings and beheadings and shootings and such?

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 14, 2012 06:56 PM (bxiXv)

----------

True, Mero....but those things were done as a deterrent, not for entertainment value.

Perhaps if we had public corporal punishment again, we would have fewer horrible crimes against innocent people.

Posted by: wheatie at December 14, 2012 07:26 PM (K4wCe)

583 Jesus Christ, what's up with all the commercials on Depression and Autism now on Fox News? Like that's going to make it all better. I haven't seen these commercials in a long time.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 07:27 PM (ulzt7)

584 569 In my professional opinion you're on the right track sven

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:28 PM (XDC0v)

585 "467 >>>Absolutely; absent a belief in an absolute morality, I can find no rational reason to behave in a moral manner. My most rational course would be to publicly proclaim the collectivist utility of common morality while privately going about whatever my heart desired.

that is you attempting to guess at your own mental state were your mental state entirely different than it actually is. I do not believe you (or most anyone) is very good at imagining "What I would be if I were completely different."

I believe your imagination fails you. I believe that even if you didn't believe in God, you'd still have a series of impulses towards empathy and order.

And to some extent even Christians believe this because if I asked about morality in pre-Christian ages -- like "Account for the moral persons in such ages" -- you'd say something like (I think, because I think I've heard this before) "the power of the Holy Spirit was felt on earth in people's consciences before Christ was born," and that sort of thing.

So I'm not sure what we're talking about. You may believe that God is the fount of all morality, and the source of it, but a *belief* in God or Christ is not strictly necessary, as you'd admit (I assume) if I asked you to explain the morality of a Mahatma Gandhi, or King David (pre-Christ, obviously), or any of a hundred thousand other heathens who I imagine would be acknowledged to be mostly moral even if not Godly and not saved.


Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 06:59 PM (LCRYB) "

Chronologically speaking, Theism predates Christianity. Gandhi and David would have been Theists. Western Civilization has always been Theist, in some way or another, to some degree or another, to the extent that it actually was Western Civilization.

(And what you call "morality" is little more than a combination of your animal instincts, including your emotionalism and desire to submit to society and the ruling authorities, and your socialization -- the less-than-truly-consensual (or conscious) fulfillment of that desire, and none of that is anything of which to be proud.)

(But for Atheists, everything is some sort of status/prestige game, so you're more or less compelled to (try to) find pride in it, and to try to brag about it.)

(How would you know any better?)

(Right.)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:28 PM (AoWJ4)

586 Thinking is wrong. And is against the will of No-God. And Science.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (AoWJ4)

I read a great essay last year regarding the eventual collision between Atheists and Muslims in Europe. I wish I had saved the link, but I still remember the point it made. When the Muslims gain the upper hand politically, the Muslims are not going to respect Atheist arguments at all. The Atheists will either convert or die.

The Article further argued that the only possible way to oppose a belief is with another belief. A lack of Belief will simply not persuade a believer. In other words, the only force on Earth that could save Atheists in Europe was a belief in the Meme of Christianity strong enough to hold back the Muslim Meme. Absent that, freedom of speech and thought would be extinguished there, because that is ONLY a product of Christian Philosophy.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:29 PM (bb5+k)

587 The best thing we could do is do away with the whole culture of hating snitches. It's almost certain that he talked to someone about doing this.

If somebody is talking about committing a violent crime, TELL SOMEONE. If it turns out to be nothing, then that's fantastic! But what if you dismiss it as just talk and then the next day you find out they've killed 13 people?

Posted by: FPW at December 14, 2012 07:29 PM (BDNF5)

588 "469 You're not thinking solipsistically. I understand why society wouldn't want cruelty, murder and selfishness...but why should *I* voluntarily restrain my behavior in this way?

You can't exist solipsistically. Outside of the skinner box, at least...

Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 07:00 PM (bGwJy) "

Individualism? Never heard of it.

(This is a right-wing site, after all...)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:29 PM (AoWJ4)

589 346 The 3rd Sunday of Advent is Gaudete, or Joyful Sunday. But how do we have a Joyful Sunday after tragedy like this latest school shooting?

Because the light shines in the darkness. Because the darkness of Advent will give way to the brilliant light of Christmas. Because God is with us.
Posted by: TiminAL at December 14, 2012 06:29 PM (A9c4d)

This.

Posted by: JDR what used to post as Taqiyyotomist at December 14, 2012 07:29 PM (e7KZr)

590 I sent my son to Catholic school even though we weren't Catholic. Even though he's a normal pain in the ass 24 year old who doesn't know what he wants to do with his life, he's a pretty good kid. A little bible thumping is good for ya when yer young. My parents sent me and my sister to the Baptist church every Sunday on the church bus till we were 18. I think it was so they could have sex, but what do i know.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 07:29 PM (ulzt7)

591 570 ace, glad you're around. Been wanting to suggest a book to ya.
It's called The Case for Christ by Lee Stroebel.


Posted by: In Cognito at December 14, 2012 07:24 PM (HT2Nt)



One of the people he interviews for that book (and A Case for Faith) is William Lane Craig, who has an excellent website on the philosophical side of Christianity. Link in nic.

Posted by: I lurk, therefore I am at December 14, 2012 07:29 PM (Mt4hP)

592 517 Ace,

You need to do what I did and reinvent purgatory for the moral heathens my friend.

Ace one day you will see the order, but I know you know the ONLY order is what we make.

The structure of the faith and the infliction of a baseline moral set are virtues all their own even without the magic tricks.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:30 PM (LRFds)

593 540 I'm looking back at, say, the 1300s to 1400s, with constant rape, murder, vicious war conducted largely against defenseless peasants (look at this nasty little tactic, popular in the English wars in Frace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e ), more rape, more murder, theft, constant bastardy and cuckolding, etc.

Anyway that was in a completely Christianized Europe.


I'd have to argue that among the nobility, few were actually literate enough to read and study the concepts taught by Christ. I'd also argue that belonging to a specified church was treated as a prequisite for vassels following their Lord, King or warchief. In other words, their"religion" had little to do with their actual dedication to following the teachings of Jesus and more to do with political power. The Church was used to control not to instruct in what Jesus actually taught his followers. I don't consider that true Christianization but rather use of (any) religion to gain power.

Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 07:31 PM (OTWsz)

594 The images of 20 little coffins at 20 funerals in the next week are going to be heartbreaking.

Posted by: Jaimo at December 14, 2012 07:31 PM (ulzt7)

595 incidentally, I'd agree that Christianity is generally a net-positive belief system for any society. The basic ethics are sound, and the doctrine is very agreeable with rationalism and science and most socially-useful things.

Post-reformation Christianity largely encourages (largely) a personal reading of the Bible, which is far preferable to, say, a cultlike religion in which "secrets" are held by ranked mystics. That is, the way Christianity is practiced (you can own the bible, read it, discover it yourself) is encouraging of the general spirit of inquiry and transparency of learning and information (although, as with any religion, it throws some roadblocks on that too).

I would far live in a Christian country than any other, including an atheist one. Because, now that I think about it, a lot of people do seem to draw the wrong conclusions from the nonexistence of God...

But I still don't think that God or Christ or Christianity is *required* to have a sense of morality and what is Good in the universe.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:32 PM (LCRYB)

596 "472 i think the "moral relativity/absolute morality" dichotomy is overstated sometimes. most people have a set of morals, but they vary from person to person, and you could argue some of the more "lenient" beliefs have maybe become too utilitarian (is that the right word?) or "if it doesn't directly harm anyone who cares"-ish

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (60GaT) "

They've become Nihilistic and Animalistic.


Animalism is now being openly advocated as the fount of all morality and of all that is good...

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:32 PM (AoWJ4)

597
300 dead Mexicans from Obama'a gun running scheme. Did the leftards cry "Gun Control!" then ,too?

Posted by: T.Hunter at December 14, 2012 07:21 PM (EZl54)

----------

Well no...but then most leftards still don't know that Barky did this.

But both he and Hillary, and their minions...were decrying the "flow of guns to Mexico", before there was any evidence of it.
Which is why they had to manufacture some.

Posted by: wheatie at December 14, 2012 07:32 PM (K4wCe)

598
If you have any faith whatsoever in the most basic Western economic principles your argument is moot.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 07:04 PM (BgIBZ)

I would argue that Western Economic Principles are based on Western Moral Principles which are based on Christian Principles. As I've mentioned, Adam Smith and Edmund Burke were not only contemporaries, they were good friends who discussed their ideas with each other. Their philosophies dovetail and are synergistic.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:32 PM (bb5+k)

599 Thanks for the info his mom seems to have bought the guns.

Posted by: SamIam at December 14, 2012 07:33 PM (S09w5)

600 I just have trouble seeing that More Christianization = More Morality.

I think it's a mistake to assume that medieval Europe was "Christianized" as we would understand it today. "Christian" was more of a tribal distinction than anything else -- for the common people.

And even "devout" Christian leaders -- from Constantine to Charlemagne -- were nasty, brutish, selfish people. Human nature is nasty business, especially without showers and air conditioning.

Being Christian -- nominally or even devotionally -- does not preclude sin. In fact, it demands it.

I was watching a documentary on ancient Egypt. They believed in, basically, the Christian idea (and for that matter, an Eastern idea) that one's life is judged as an entirety and if the soul is lighter than a feather, they...well, go to heaven, essentially.

Why would they develop that idea? Why would they teach it to their children?

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 07:33 PM (b65cm)

601 "473 451
I ask you what the world was like before they came along? The website "Bede's Library" has some very good essays on the role of Christianity in creating Western Civilization. It certainly abolished slavery. Would an Atheist society have done such a thing?

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:54 PM (bb5+k)
---

Correlation is not the equivalent of causation. Natural economic forces would have rendered slavery obsolete regardless of the existence of Christianity.

On that note, Christianity did not bestow empathy on humans. Empathy is an adaptive trait just as good moral principles are likely to be. People will refrain from stealing in the absence of religion because they know that to be caught means social and economic ostracism, for instance.

I know this isn't Hot Air but I still feel I should add the disclaimer that I am a Christian and I believe that the presence of Christianity in a society is very likely to increase it's overall level of morality.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (BgIBZ) "

Yes, empathy (and a whole bunch of other things) do have to do with man's animal nature.


Which is why compassion (and Theism, specifically Christianity) are superior.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:34 PM (AoWJ4)

602
How come the lefty shitheads don't mind Obama running guns down to Mexico where they do have strict gun control and citizens are routinely massacred?

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 07:34 PM (0Ufr+)

603 >>Also that being committed legally screws up the rest of your life, and even association with the field in a non-committal basis can screw up your reputation.

Oh, yes.

"I'm curious Applicant, why DID you suddenly give up that contracting job in March 3 years ago?"

"I was in the hospital for almost a week. There was no way I was going to be able to meet the project deadline. I had to let them know."

"Oh, you were in the HOSPITAL?! Why?"

"Medical reasons."

"That sounds rough."

"Yeah, I wasn't too happy having to disappoint a client, let me tell you!"

"No, I mean it's rough being in the hospital. Was it a surgery or what?"

"Oh, no! Not surgery! Nothing like that!"

"Was it *cancer*? That's sooo brave!"

No. Not cancer. If you MUST know, I have sort of a low level chronic condition that needed some acute treatment at the time which I'm managing pretty well on my own right now. It's sort of like diabetes...



Posted by: Someone You May Know at December 14, 2012 07:34 PM (8eLGd)

604 >>>Not to say that person cannot be moral, they still have a
link to morality as I've said, only that their decision to be moral is
not logically based.



>>>My desire to eat pizza is not logically based. Logic is a small part of our brains.

Whatever portion of our brains it occupies, being moral as an urge also comes with contravening urges to do immoral things. At some point a choice has to be made, sometimes by the rational mind, sometimes not, of which of those impulses to feed. I at least get the buttress of my logic to help.

As an aside the moral man must fight his worst self every day. Where the immoral man can slay his better half easily and quickly. The fact that we can and do fight that fight and often though not always win, is part of why I KNOW God exists. Because otherwise immorality would have consumed every man long ago.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 07:36 PM (0q2P7)

605 597 Wheatie,

You got it....it is also why I am not mocking the nutball conspiracy mongerers like I used to.

The media is so in bed with barky Michelle gets jealous....

Obama could order this and the media would hide it.

We live in hell.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:36 PM (LRFds)

606
The psychiatric community routinely abuses its power. I'd be very leary of them.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 07:36 PM (0Ufr+)

607 Drudge has a pic of the shooter.

Looks like he's 15 years old.





HE WAS ONLY FIFTEEN YEARS OLD!!!!

Posted by: EC at December 14, 2012 07:37 PM (doBIb)

608 "475
They don't deserve to die in fear and pain.

You're right. No one deserves most of the shit that life shovels at them daily.

Seriously, come back and read what I'm going to tell you after you calm down a bit, maybe tomorrow: You must have a belief system, or else you'll drive yourself crazy if you continue. I know, because I was that way once. I was fortunate enough to hear the right words at the right time and it made all the difference in how I approach this world and all the bullshit in it.

I choose to believe in a God, His Son, the Ten Commandments, Heaven and an afterlife. I have no proof of their existence save what I've been told and what I can see. For a long time, I didn't believe and I was an asshole because of that. I'm still somewhat of an ass, but I'm better than I was.

My point is, it's not out of the realm of possibility that we get what we believe in. If you think there's no Heaven, then it's entirely possible that you'll never experience it. You gotta believe in something, and I believe in Goodness. Unfortunately, there's not much of that in this part of life, so it's up to me to make as many good things happen as possible. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't, but I still try.

Call me naive if you wish, I don't care. My belief system helps me tremendously in times like these: there is a Heaven and a benevolent loving God rules there. Our souls are eternal and go on to live a life without time or space, in a spiritual dimension we can only guess at. Tonight, there are a few more there a little earlier than planned.

After it's all said and done, our beliefs are just about all we have.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 07:02 PM (yiIja) "

This.

A belief in the immortality/eternal nature of the soul and the omnibenevolence of God is essential.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:37 PM (AoWJ4)

609 ace in the west we have societal norms, brought about social contracts on pretty much religious tenants, no murderig, no stealing, no lying, etc

if you were to be born where the societal norm weren't necessarily moral o our beliefs.
I brought this up before but remember a few decades ago they found humans on an previously undiscovered island eating humans?

that was there societal norm.
how did our norm come about?

innate goodliness?

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:37 PM (nqBYe)

610 I think more districts should look to a small district in Texas to lead the way:

A tiny Texas school district may be the first in the nation to pass a
law specifically allowing teachers and staff to pack heat when classes
begin later this month.

Trustees at the Harrold Independent School District approved a
district policy change last October so employees can carry concealed
firearms to deter and protect against school shootings, provided the
gun-toting teachers follow certain requirements.

Superintendent David Thweatt told FOXNews.com the policy was initiated because of safety concerns.The Texas superintendent linked gun-free zones with the uprising of school shootings in recent years.

"When you make schools gun-free zones, it's like inviting people to come in and take advantage," Thweatt told FOXNews.com.

In order for teachers and staff to carry a pistol, they must
have a Texas license to carry a concealed handgun; must be authorized to
carry by the district; must receive training in crisis management and
hostile situations and must use ammunition that is designed to minimize
the risk of ricochet in school halls.

Thweatt said the small community is a 30-minute drive from the
sheriff's office, leaving students and teachers without protection. He
said the district's lone campus sits 500 feet from heavily trafficked
U.S. 287, which could make it a target.
via FoxNews - 2008

Posted by: 2nd Amendment Mother at December 14, 2012 07:37 PM (L4CWX)

611 their* societal norm

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:38 PM (nqBYe)

612 Thanks to the 1968 Gun Control Act we have the form 4473 which asks on line 11 section f : ...have you been adjudicated as mentally defective....can you manage your own affairs?... Someone that has been diagnosed with a mental disorder (among many other things; drug or alcohol abuse, felony conviction, etc) is barred from owning or even using a firearm. This fellow could not legally possess a gun, the school is a "gun free zone", and last I checked murder is still illegal. We all know the commie rat bastards will be screaming for gun control in... 3.. 2.. 1, and this happened in a state with a Brady score of 90+. The final thing I'd like to leave you all with is the 1968 GCA was lifted in toto from the pre-ww2 nazi gun laws- yet another reason I expect to see President Johnson in hell when I get there. Be safe, check your range cards.

Posted by: Zhytamyr at December 14, 2012 07:39 PM (91nzM)

613 "478 467 >>>Absolutely; absent a belief in an absolute morality, I can find no rational reason to behave in a moral manner.

---

Tell that to the thieves sent to the gallows, the murderers drawn and quartered, the adulterers run out of town, the rapists hung, the countless despots beheaded by their people.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (BgIBZ) "

Utopia!


(And Leftists would call that Fascism.)
(Unless they're the ones in charge.)

(But how would you know any better?)
(Right...)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:39 PM (AoWJ4)

614 Islam societal and cultural norms are what comparedly to ours or the west in general?

and why?

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:39 PM (nqBYe)

615 mideast societal norms ack. and why

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:39 PM (nqBYe)

616
I just have trouble seeing that More Christianization = More Morality.

It has to be the right kind of Christianity. Throughout history, many have adopted the mantle of "Christian" in order to gain power. Today is no different - look at some prominent "preachers" today and you'll find the same hypocrisy in the likes of Sharpton, Jackson, Wright and Phelps.

IMO, these are the "wolves in sheeps clothing" we were warned about a long time ago. The adage to watch what they do, not what they say, seems about right.

Also, The Golden Rule - to treat others the way you want to be treated - is an awfully good idea and a good thing to teach kids. Many folks adhere to that regardless of religious beliefs, which is a good thing. They just see it as the right way to live. This isn't a new idea, but it was codified within Christianity, so there's that.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 07:39 PM (yiIja)

617 >>>
I was watching a documentary on ancient Egypt. They believed in, basically, the Christian idea (and for that matter, an Eastern idea) that one's life is judged as an entirety and if the soul is lighter than a feather, they...well, go to heaven, essentially.

>>>Why would they develop that idea? Why would they teach it to their children?

You won't like this answer, and you've heard it 1000 times, but they had that idea for the same reason Christianity does -- that if you survey the creation and god-myths of the past 10,000 years they have a fair number of points in common.

i don't think that stuff makes Christianity any different from a hundred other previous religions -- Heaven, Hell, Creation, Armageddon/Ragnarok, God, Devil, Day, Night, Earth, Sky. Great Serpents from hell (Leviathan). All that stuff has been in religions forever.

What might be an innovation (I don't know enough to say) is the very heavy focus on ethics/empathy in the central myth of Redemption. I'm not sure previous religions placed such a huge focus on ethical behavior itself as a form of worship.



Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:40 PM (LCRYB)

618 >>Individualism? Never heard of it.

Nice bubble you have here.


Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 07:40 PM (bGwJy)

619 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (bb5+k)



Just, wow.

Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (bGwJy)


No need to bow, just cross my palm with silver.



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:40 PM (bb5+k)

620 "481 Isn't Islam a shame culture? Killing your daughter over the family honor? I'll pass on that thanks.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (K1JW0) "

Yep. But we must never learn from the mistakes of others. Merely imply that they are subhumans who "deserve" nothing but extermination. Because No-God.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:40 PM (AoWJ4)

621 There's an open thread above for anyone tired of the heaviness.

Posted by: logprof at December 14, 2012 07:40 PM (LMgaP)

622 But if god existed, he wouldn't things like this happen.

Posted by: Godless Liberal at December 14, 2012 07:41 PM (V70Uh)

623
@wheatie - manufacturing evidence even before the commission of the "crime" or collateral damage as the liberals like to call it.

“Near midnight, the assassins, later identified as hired guns for the
Mexican cartel La Linea, broke into a one-story house and opened fire
on a gathering of nearly 60 teenagers. Outside, lookouts gunned down a
screaming neighbor and several students who had managed to escape.
Fourteen young men and women were killed, and 12 more were wounded
before the hit men finally fled.”

Citing a Mexican Army document it obtained and published,
Univision reported that “[t]hree of the high caliber weapons fired that
night in Villas de Salvarcar were linked to a gun tracing operation run
by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).”



"Shut up", they explained.

Posted by: T.Hunter at December 14, 2012 07:41 PM (EZl54)

624 608 MUMR,

I renounced my faith when I was ~15 and had a friend thrown off a parking garage.

I was back to the faith by my 18th year.

The separation gave me the ability to look dispassionately at the message of christ and I embraced him without the divinity as a philosopher first and then resumed my faith entire.

Jesus' message was essentially from a secular PoV as a Roman may have seen it.....

1) Be decent to one another as much as the rules allow

2) You really should help the poor, but it is not the key to salvation and happiness.

3) revenge as a cornerstone of culture sucks

My crisis of faith in the end made me a better Christian and I understand without the implied hubris that Jesus perhaps did value Thomas most of all because in the end when Thomas believed it meant Jesus had made the point.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:42 PM (LRFds)

625 >>>as I've been saying forever I think people lie to themselves about how "logical" they are.

Hold whatever opinion of my logic you will. I never said one has to believe in God to behave morally or understand the basics of morality. What I was saying was an ardent disbelief in God makes a belief in an absolute morality illogical.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 07:43 PM (0q2P7)

626 "485 Phillips also found in his landmark 1974 study of copycat suicides the increased fatalities by suicide, automobile and plane fatalities peaked three days after a widely publicized suicide. It's no coincidence the Oregon mall shooting occurred on Tuesday and this guy decided to do this today. Keep that in mind the more people publicize this guys name and mental condition. More effective than gun control in stopping this sort of thing would be the complete embargo of the assailants identity, motive, means and methods until after the investigation is completed. Remove the social proof and you remove the final motivating factor. Explanation article on copycat suicides and social proof linked below.
http://goo.gl/3p4y3

Posted by: Exasperated Expat at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (gkfSV) "

"Copycatism?" Never heard of it.

Everyone in the Media is an omnibenevolent Atheist saint, you stupid ignorant hateful wingnut.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:43 PM (AoWJ4)

627 626 MUMR,

Saint Chris of Chivas is my Patron....I'm an asshole.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:44 PM (LRFds)

628 "486 If you're crying about 20 dead kids but not 3287 dead kidsEVERY DAY well to a certain extent maybe you just like to cry in public. So much of what is being said across the webseems likejust people trying to demonstrate their more-sensitive-than-thou. As was said before, how many kids were killed by car accidents today? Is that less a tragedy or loss? What are ya gonna do, cry all day every day? Every minute spent beleaguring this issue just plays into the hands who wish to use public concern as a justification to curtail our liberties.

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (XDC0v) "

Phariseism? Never heard of it.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:45 PM (AoWJ4)

629 What part of "Thou shalt not eat pizza" do you not understand?

Posted by: Taco God at December 14, 2012 07:45 PM (BVkEs)

630 >>>What I was saying was an ardent disbelief in God makes a belief in an absolute morality illogical.

Oh and to be clear. When I say God, I mean in the most general terms; As ultimate arbiter of morality, not God belonging to a particular faith tradition.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 07:45 PM (0q2P7)

631 I'm thinking the corpse of anyone who murders like this and then kills themselves should very publicly be handed over to the official state necrophiliac for as long as it interests them, then tossed into a dumpster and transported to the local landfill for final disposal. And if they don't off themselves...well, the corpse fucker is a patient man. He'll get his chance one way or another, eventually.

It might not deter the next one who's contemplating a mass killing, but I'm willing to roll the dice.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at December 14, 2012 07:46 PM (6WVi+)

632 628 MUMR,

Why it's almost like these arguments have been had before.....why going back ~5,000 or so years.

God loves, man kills.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:46 PM (LRFds)

633 "488 Well, I think moral sentiment is inborn. I think you probably believe
that too but ascribe it to God. Whereas I ascribe it to built-in
empathy functions.



A strict rationalist will cry when he sees a child crying.



But either way we agree that there is an inborn sense of morality.


I'd argue it comes from empathy. We have been hurt, so we identify with the victim. But again, irrational.


There is also a component of egocentric ethics. Most people have a
preference to be Good, or at least be thought of that way (or think of
themselves that way).


OK, so there is some emotional utility about acting according to a moral code. But I would think there is also some emotional utility from hurting your enemies, or more specifically, the ones who violate your moral code.

There's a reason that schadenfraude starts with schaden.

I know this kind of thing is hard to deal with. We like to think of ourselves as good people (most of us) but if you sit and think about it or your elevator doesn't quite go to the top, you realize that you should just take that iPad sitting on the table over there. No one will know. Why not download that movie? Those Hollywood types make too much money anyway. Plus, I don't agree with the copyright laws.

I'm glad people act irrationally. I just don't want them to realize it. It's pretty much an axiom of conservatism that human nature isn't so nice.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 07:04 PM (b65cm) "

Axioms of conservatism? Never heard of them.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:47 PM (AoWJ4)

634 I'm looking back at, say, the 1300s to 1400s, with
constant rape, murder, vicious war conducted largely against defenseless
peasants (look at this nasty little tactic, popular in the English wars
in Frace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e ), more rape,
more murder, theft, constant bastardy and cuckolding, etc.



Anyway that was in a completely Christianized Europe.



I just have trouble seeing that More Christianization = More Morality.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:15 PM (LCRYB)

Christian in name, but not in principals. It took awhile. Many people I discuss this with claim that it was the Reformation that triggered the enlightenment. It wasn't until the Early 1800s that England moved to give up Slavery. Beyond that, as bad as it got in the dark ages, it was just as bad and worse elsewhere.
Even so, the Atheist regimes have murdered Millions.






Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:48 PM (bb5+k)

635 "491 but I think the "teaching" consists of teaching children to associate the pain they feel (and know intimately) when hurt or menaced with the feeling others would experience under similar circumstances.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:01 PM (LCRYB)


Well it's not just teaching kids about pain and bad and stuff like that, but also, and even more important...It's teaching kids about doing the right thing, about doing the moral thing, it's about teaching kids about the common good and about sacrificing for others. Liberals like to make fun of patriotism and things like "American Exceptionalism" but concepts like that always seemed to do us good in the past and with the breakdown of those concepts, it seems civil behavior in this Country has suffered for the worse.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 14, 2012 07:05 PM (jE38p) "

Patriotism? Never heard of it.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:48 PM (AoWJ4)

636 628 And if you're crying about 20 dead white kidsmore thanyou do about 300 dead mexicans then YOU'RE a racist...

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:48 PM (XDC0v)

637
Got home a few minutes ago. TV was on. NBC. Watched the coveraged of the tragedy. Then Brian Williams cues up the next part of the story. "This next segment may be difficult to watch..." I was thinking they were going to show pics of video of one of the victim's parents or something. Nope. The next segment is Obama's remarks (granted he was shaken by this, who wasn't).
All I can say is OMFG.

Posted by: rockhead at December 14, 2012 07:49 PM (ZMHGo)

638 617 Ace,

You'll love taking a look at "Goreonism" the neo Gaia cult with Malthusian overtones that has EPA as its warrior priests....

The bad news is Christianity is dead as a force of national cohesiveness.....

the "good news" is the Donks have replaced it with Marx as sword and Goreonism as shield.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:49 PM (LRFds)

639 MUMR your snark isn't all that funny

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 07:49 PM (60GaT)

640 >>>What I was saying was an ardent disbelief in God makes a belief in an absolute morality illogical.

but 90% of the things I do aren't logical. Just to be crude: I like sex a whole heck of lot. That's not logical. Logic would dictate it's a great big waste of time.

I wasn't knocking YOUR logic. Well, I was, but I was knocking the entire world's belief that they are logical. I think people overestimate their belief in logic because:

Logic is formed from words, or at least signfiers (numbers and mathematical operations, for example)

What we think of when we think of thinking, when we think of ourselves, is that part of our brain that *thinks in words.* There is part of our brain that thinks in words, and we think that brain is therefore we ourselves. But that thinking-in-words part of our brain is just a piece of it. That's just like the guy saying "mush" to the dogs but it ignores the sled and ignores all the dogs. and the dogs are really pulling the sled.



Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:50 PM (LCRYB)

641 "495 Just had to leave my support group when they started literally blaming me for this 20 mins ago. I am ticked off. I have to go back and lock up the damn church in an hour. Two of them started off on the GOP and NRA and then "One said there 's one sitting here" said "you're one aren't you?" I was just sitting there silent until then.

Posted by: Baldy at December 14, 2012 07:05 PM (tlg6 "

Inherent Atheists gonna/gotta be moral.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:50 PM (AoWJ4)

642 ...and in more positive guns and schools news last night one of my students asked if I was going shooting this Christmas break and gave me a Big 5 gift card to buy ammo with.

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:51 PM (XDC0v)

643 >>>the "good news" is the Donks have replaced it with Marx as sword and Goreonism as shield.

good point for any agnostic/atheist -- if Christianity were destroyed, what would replace it?

A lot of people seem to think the answer is "Reason and Empathy." I think more like Naziism and Communism.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:51 PM (LCRYB)

644 >>>NIGHTMARE: News orgs circulate FACEBOOK profile, photos of unconfirmed Ryan Lanza...

I dunno if they really circulated it. I didn't need the media to tell me to check FB for it. And, the media could hardly confirm it with Ryan since they were led to believe that he and his entire family were dead.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 14, 2012 07:52 PM (0Ufr+)

645 "496 Home school kids: there goes expensive, intrusive, incompetent, malicious local, state and federal involvement in their lives.

Say goodbye to NEA, PTA, social workers taking girls to doctors without your consent (free of accountability to you, their parents),SEIU and AFSCME goons retained at your expense.

Say goodbye to the chance that your children will be sacrificed to the failure of courts, legislators, regulators, litigators and administrators.

Keep your kids at home and find out how good they are and how good you can be to them. Take them with you everywhere you go and find out how soon you own life improves in all respects.

Posted by: DM at December 14, 2012 07:06 PM (BDHOa) "

But don't you know that the government exists to help you?

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:52 PM (AoWJ4)

646 God gave man free will.

God has an enemy that forces compliance through lies and deception and chaos.

Christ , God with us, draws men to Himself.

Posted by: T.Hunter at December 14, 2012 07:52 PM (EZl54)

647 641 Unsupportive assholes

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:53 PM (XDC0v)

648 I'm agnostic but I see the societal benefit of the
church. If I ever had a kid, he's going every week, should at the very
least pick up a few fundamentals of Western civilization.


Posted by: mugiwara at December 14, 2012 07:25 PM (hpYnL)


I am too, but like you, I see the benefits to a society of a belief in a higher power. I often refer to myself as a "Pro-Theistic Agnostic."



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:53 PM (bb5+k)

649 643 Ace,

We're allies Ace in a way I never can be with AllahPundit.

You looks at the US as the best defense of the enlightenment and Locke and on that we are in agreement.

I use my faith as fuel to defend the founding and freedom, you use your mind and values.

Allahpundit denies me my fuel in his dream world.

Evangelical atheism sucks.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:54 PM (LRFds)

650 Don't forget that Gabrielle Giffords' assailant was also a disturbed young man, with a serious history of violence and encounters with the law. But the cops, headed up by the valiant Sheriff "Dirty" Dupnik, kept kicking him loose because Momma was tight with the county government.

The tragedy of incidents like these is that they could so often have been prevented if the people responsible for dealing with the individuals professionally beforehand had done so.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at December 14, 2012 07:54 PM (qvify)

651 "504 We only have EIGHT days left. Let's be happy and post positive posts.

Where is that video of the girl dancing in the bikini from last night?

Posted by: Billy Bob, the guy who drinks in SC at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (wR+pz) "

Happiness? Positivity? Never heard of them.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:54 PM (AoWJ4)

652 "506 so ifyou are raisedin a culture where killing for reasons is valued

women for wearing a short skirt.

so it is a cultural norm here to not kill and reason it out.
what brought that norm to the west?

or blief in killing v murder?

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:09 PM (nqBYe) "

But don't you know that all cultures are equal?

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:55 PM (AoWJ4)

653 >>Logic is a small part of our brains.
---

Given the number who voted for Obama, I say you are on to something.

Posted by: sTevo at December 14, 2012 07:56 PM (xtLs1)

654 incidentally, I'd agree that Christianity is generally a net-positive
belief system for any society. The basic ethics are sound, and the
doctrine is very agreeable with rationalism and science and most
socially-useful things.



Post-reformation Christianity largely encourages (largely) a
personal reading of the Bible, which is far preferable to, say, a
cultlike religion in which "secrets" are held by ranked mystics.


Gnosticism. Christianity dodged that bullet early on.

But it's creeping into our society today. Why do people believe in global warming? Self-interested scientists say so. What are the mechanisms? Nobody knows, except the scientists who demand no scrutiny.

That
is, the way Christianity is practiced (you can own the bible, read it,
discover it yourself) is encouraging of the general spirit of inquiry
and transparency of learning and information (although, as with any
religion, it throws some roadblocks on that too).


Some have argued that science developed because of Judeo-Christianity in that man was encouraged to know God and seek Him out. I don't think it's a prerequisite but you do need to have a love for nature rather than a fear of it.

I'd say modern science is slipping fast. The paleo-sciences are taking too much of our attention rather than the simple "repeatable experiments" type of science. I call it "real science".


I would far live in a Christian country than any other, including an
atheist one. Because, now that I think about it, a lot of people do
seem to draw the wrong conclusions from the nonexistence of God...


I'd argue that it also gives the maximum amount of freedom. If a vengeful God can keep people from misbehaving, then you don't need as many cops. Or Big Brother.

Many take comfort in atheism because they see it as nonjudgmental. As I said before, if you can't believe in God, you can't believe in God. There's no point in arguing faith. But it was said of Madeline Murray O'Hare that she did believe in God, she just hated Him.


But I still don't think that God or Christ or Christianity is
*required* to have a sense of morality and what is Good in the universe.


I agree. There are paths to the same place, for the purposes of what we are discussing here. There are ways that a free, pluralistic society of hundreds of millions of people can function with relative peace and prosperity for several generations.

Just not many.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 07:56 PM (b65cm)

655 Gaudete in Domino semper: iterum dico, gaudete. Modestia vestra nota sit omnibus hominibus: Dominus enim prope est. Nihil solliciti sitis: sed in omni oratione petitiones vestræ innotescant apud Deum. Benedixisti Domine terram tuam: avertisti captivitatem Jacob.

Posted by: JDR what used to post as Taqiyyotomist at December 14, 2012 07:57 PM (e7KZr)

656 "508 They're all in hell.


Posted by: Dante at December 14, 2012 07:07 PM (hpYnL)
True dat. Hard for non Christians to get a handle on that. Only one way to heaven boys, and it's not going down to the yoga place and doing chants.

Posted by: Billy Bob, the guy who drinks in SC at December 14, 2012 07:09 PM (wR+pz) "

If you want me to believe that, I'm going to have to see it in the Scriptures.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:57 PM (AoWJ4)

657 I wouldn't. I'd argue that Islam was a net hindrance
and Christianity may have been a net benefit (for too many reasons to
get into here, but a lot of it came from the presence of the Reformation
and the pluralism of Christianity) but I think China slowed because
they unified quickly and, without war or capitalism, development just
doesn't happen and people are satisfied with their peasant lifestyle.


Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 07:25 PM (b65cm)


And you may very well have the right of it. I have long argued that it is a mistake to see a single vector as the cause of a resultant. Often times there are multiple forces at play, but my argument is that Christianity (or something similar) is instrumental in influencing our society for the better.

I am actually quite impressed with the Mormons, and have been for quite some time. In activity and benefits to their society, they seem to have a pretty good set of beliefs. At least their beliefs render them highly functional.



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:57 PM (bb5+k)

658
What we think of when we think of thinking, when we think of ourselves, is that part of our brain that *thinks in words.* There is part of our brain that thinks in words, and we think that brain is therefore we ourselves.

Here's something I heard many years ago that puzzled me for a long, long time - "Your thoughts are not your own."

It is true.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 07:57 PM (yiIja)

659 652 MUMR,

Don't get me started.

My wife was told implicitly you cannot wish ANYONE a Merry Christmas at work.

No restrictions on ANY other faith.

In the end all faith are equal but all are more equal than one.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:57 PM (LRFds)

660 I have to tell ya folks, I am really enjoying this.
There are people here who are "arguing my case" for me better than I could ever dream of doing.
And everyone is discussing the matter like gentlemen and ladies.
Thank you all.

Posted by: In Cognito at December 14, 2012 07:58 PM (2pw4s)

661 It's BULLSHIT!

Aspbergers, is basically a non fucking issue even in the world of autism.

FUCK THAT! It's a bullshit excuse.

Posted by: douglas at December 14, 2012 07:59 PM (7zzd8)

662 as I've been saying forever I think people lie to themselves about how "logical" they are.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:26 PM (LCRYB)


Yup.




Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:59 PM (bb5+k)

663 651 In case anyone missed it: Borderline Sociopathic Blog for Boys is awesome on a regular basis: http://tinyurl.com/cxfforw

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 08:00 PM (XDC0v)

664 "518 In general when there is a horrible tragedy:

1) people panic
2) politicians promote severe legislation to score points
3) draconian ill-considered legislation passes.
4) risk of horrible tragedy has not decreased, law-abiding citizens are now harrassed or jailed.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 14, 2012 07:11 PM (uhAkr) "

This.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:01 PM (AoWJ4)

665 "After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it." --William Burroughs

Posted by: Thorvald at December 14, 2012 08:01 PM (1V6Pv)

666 661 No, it's real, whatever it is. Only way you could believe what you said is if you've never seen it.

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 08:02 PM (XDC0v)

667 You won't like this answer, and you've heard it 1000 times, but they had
that idea for the same reason Christianity does -- that if you survey
the creation and god-myths of the past 10,000 years they have a fair
number of points in common.


Why wouldn't I like it? It's true.

The difference is that Judaism developed the idea of a supernatural God, not a natural one or natural ones (god of thunder, etc.). Christianity threw away the rulebook (Leviticus, more or less), simplified morality and humanized God.

But my point is, why would this culture even think of this idea?

You want the boogieman. You NEED the boogieman.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 08:03 PM (b65cm)

668 Then there's Frum (Bloomberg is utterly predictable: he even wants to tell you what t o eat)...
http://preview.tinyurl.com/cgh8qkw
Who'd a thunk it?

Posted by: Thorvald at December 14, 2012 08:03 PM (1V6Pv)

669 But I still don't think that God or Christ or
Christianity is *required* to have a sense of morality and what is Good
in the universe.





Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:32 PM (LCRYB)

Not Christianity per say, but something like it.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 08:03 PM (bb5+k)

670 nice.nowcantfrikkingpost

Posted by: Baldy at December 14, 2012 08:03 PM (tlg68)

671 Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 14, 2012 07:02 PM (yiIja)

Again, this.

Posted by: JDR what used to post as Taqiyyotomist at December 14, 2012 08:04 PM (e7KZr)

672 "535 >>Not much of a philosopher, are you? (But you're an Atheist, so you're better than everyone else...)

That's funny on more than a few levels.

Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 07:14 PM (bGwJy) "

A priori and/or beg the question much? Dickbag.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:04 PM (AoWJ4)

673 Did anyone notice TFG's commitment to providing resourses to this tragedy to be similar to the promise to bring the perps in Benghazi to justice?


Posted by: sTevo at December 14, 2012 08:05 PM (xtLs1)

674 "But I still don't think that God or Christ or Christianity is *required* to have a sense of morality and what is Good in the universe. "

I would agree that most religions share in common many ethical beliefs. Certainly Ghandi and others demonstrated that morality is not limited to Christians or Jews practicing JudeoChristian ethics. So is there any real difference in ethics/morals between a Hindu or Buddhists's, or of an ethical Atheist?

C.S. Lewis was once asked what set Christianity apart from other world religions. His reply
: that's easy, it's Faith. By this he explain that Christ taught this unique idea: although a moral life and doing acts of good will were a reflection of your belief in the teachings of Christ, they did not provide the path to complete unification (salvation) with God during life or after death. In other words, good works can't buy your way into heaven. Faith meant one's belief that our darkness and failures to match the nature of God would forever separate us from God without the sacrifice of Jesus. We all blow it, and that separates us. That sacrifice alone is what unites us, not our moral deeds.

So, yes there are many examples of non-Christians or Jews who have contributed a great deal to humanities growth in ethical insights, but that does not pave their road to God.

Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 08:05 PM (OTWsz)

675 667 AmishDude,

Put another way, we need God to be real a whole lot more than he needs us to be real.

If you reduce the notion of the modern faiths down to it it is an enforced Moral Tally Man and the details are about what wrappings evolved amongst cultures to arrive at the enforced moral balance.

On the whole I have less problem with Christianity's Tally man's price than most other faith's....

Secular Humanism offers you Charles Manson as Tally Man.....

"no thanks"

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 08:06 PM (LRFds)

676 "543 527 The purpose of the Commandments was to establish the need for redemption through Jesus's ransom sacrifice.

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:16 PM (XDC0v) "

Shhhh.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:06 PM (AoWJ4)

677 >>>but 90% of the things I do aren't logical. Just to be crude: I like sex
a whole heck of lot. That's not logical. Logic would dictate it's a
great big waste of time.

This goes into the "feeling good" thing why we shouldn't just pursue hookers and blow our whole lives. If you choose morality because it feels good consistently I applaud your sense of morality, from wherever it might spring. I, however, have noted a number of dreaded feelings from morality in some situations. It doesn't always make me happy or feels good to be moral. Sometimes it is difficult, and hurts. Sometimes it runs squarely against my long term and short term benefit and what I *WANT* to do. But there it is. Morality.

I'm not going to say I live up to it all the time. I am going to say, that when it gets close, and I win over my innate immorality, it is my faith that reigns in on rational thought, and gets my rational mind to override all other considerations.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 08:08 PM (0q2P7)

678 +++i don't think that stuff makes Christianity any different from a hundred other previous religions -- Heaven, Hell, Creation, Armageddon/Ragnarok, God, Devil, Day, Night, Earth, Sky. Great Serpents from hell (Leviathan). All that stuff has been in religions forever.

_________

Too easy, but nice try. Or are you a fan of Pope (Alexander, I mean)?

Posted by: Cricket at December 14, 2012 08:08 PM (2ArJQ)

679 647 Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:53 PM (XDC0v) - True Lost darn poots I had.

Posted by: Baldy at December 14, 2012 08:08 PM (tlg68)

680 good point for any agnostic/atheist -- if Christianity were destroyed, what would replace it?



A lot of people seem to think the answer is "Reason and Empathy." I think more like Naziism and Communism.


Of course. Marx wanted to end "religion" (read: Christianity) because he thought that it would keep mankind from realizing perfection. And so Marxists can't simply be tolerant, they have to be anti-religion.

But it doesn't really work out that way. We all have a point of view, an ideology, and if it doesn't work, we just say "more cowbell."

"Just one more Keynesian stimulus..."

But when the ideology doesn't work for ordering society, you order more pogroms, more restrictions, more laws, more rules because perfection is just around the corner if we would just tweak it a little bit more...

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 08:08 PM (b65cm)

681 I too am in the pro-Christian agnostic club. Technically I'm Episcopalian, but I believe that's synonymous with agnostic anyway.

Posted by: mugiwara at December 14, 2012 08:09 PM (hpYnL)

682 Ace, morons:

Goodness abounds hereabouts. I've read hundreds of comments about this, on dozens of sites: AoSHQ comes through with what I always knew: goodness.

Sure, it's a veritable Pirate's Cove of insane humor and acerbic wit, most times, most stories -- which is why I read the threads here (most times...so I can bust a gut after a hard day) -- but today the majority of you all pretty much shine in a different way, and brightly.

Posted by: JDR what used to post as Taqiyyotomist at December 14, 2012 08:09 PM (e7KZr)

683 676 MUMR,

Quite....and by using an empathetic that people could identify with since most people feel love and sacrifice for family unless mentally ill you can identify with and carry the tally sheet harder for "a man who so loved Man that he got up on the cross despite his ability to destroy all."

I can't really "feel" the sacrifice of a goat or empathize with his "loss and voluntary pain" as rendering unto God....

but trust me when I am doing my Job impersonation on patience I can totally feel horror/love at the fella with the nails.

Oh and another shooting at Fort Hood today....

I really want this whole 'world is ending" crap to die down.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 08:10 PM (LRFds)

684 A lot of people seem to think the answer is "Reason and Empathy." I think more like Naziism and Communism.





Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:51 PM (LCRYB)


As Winston Churchill said: "Democracy is the worst form of Government.... Except for all the others."

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 08:11 PM (bb5+k)

685 i luv you guys.

and No i'm not drinking.

but i appreciate that we can have a decent discussion today. not filled with the anger and rage i'm sure we all feel.

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 08:11 PM (nqBYe)

686 "552 I argue that the world advanced into the light of knowledge BECAUSE of the widespread adoption of Christianity. It is the principles of Christianity that made what used to be our civilization possible. As these principles have been eschewed, so has the nation declined.






Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:15 PM (bb5+k)

key ideas. even if many Americans are not practicing Christians or do not have any understanding of Christianity, the centuries old influence of Christianity on the fabric of America has resulted in s substantially different, and better, culture from that of non-Chrisitan countries. Forgiveness is an essential element of a Christian nation and culture and provides meaningful benefits to a country - lack of forgiveness is a disadvantage.

Posted by: yankeefifth at December 14, 2012 07:18 PM (Z9EHQ) "

Nonsense. Why do you hate Progress/totalitarianism/immorality? You stupid worthless wingnut.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:11 PM (AoWJ4)

687 Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 08:05 PM (OTWsz)

---

CS Lewis was once an ardent atheist.

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 08:12 PM (BVkEs)

688 687 Craig
I am quite aware of that - he discusses his past in many of his books

Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 08:16 PM (OTWsz)

689 "557 >>>As long as Atheists are certain that they are better than everyone else... what can be done?

As far as I can tell the "Better Than You" is something you seem fixed on. And AmishDude suggested something like that earlier.

It's usually best to try to push ego-based stuff down in an argument. I see no reason to derail a generally good discussion into a "You Think You're Better Than Me??!" bloodbath.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:20 PM (LCRYB) "

Ah, but see, it was in a general, rather than purely personal sense. One of the primary appeals of Atheism in contemporary society is the prestige it confers to the person who embraces it, and the stigma that the person who rejects it has to endure.


(And people generally don't listen to those they believe to be their inferior.)
(Which is, of course, a "feature.")

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:16 PM (AoWJ4)

690 OK if you want cute chick and ukelele vids watch THIS: http://tinyurl.com/ceud8vn

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 08:16 PM (XDC0v)

691
I too am in the pro-Christian agnostic club. Technically I'm Episcopalian, but I believe that's synonymous with agnostic anyway.


Posted by: mugiwara at December 14, 2012 08:09 PM (hpYnL)



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 08:17 PM (bb5+k)

692 "558 548 I agree. Actually if you want to push the issue this whole incident is just an element of the process of natural selection. Which is outside "morality". If atheism is to have any internal consistency-

Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:20 PM (XDC0v) "

There must not be any internal consistency. No-God forbids it.



Also, emote more, comrade. Or else.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:19 PM (AoWJ4)

693 688
687 Craig

I am quite aware of that - he discusses his past in many of his books

---

I was sure you were. Love The Screwtape Letters.

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 08:19 PM (BVkEs)

694 689 MUMR,

Atheism as practiced today is the self-imbued permission to engage in bigotry.

I love Agnostics, cannot stand devout atheists.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 08:19 PM (LRFds)

695 Lewis was and still remains a good source of provocative thought for both atheists and intellectuals. Try "The Great Divorce" or the "Screwtape Letters". But I still love his children's books and Peralanda (hope I didn't mangle that title)

Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 08:20 PM (OTWsz)

696 "559 300 dead Mexicans from Obama'a gun running scheme. Did the leftards cry "Gun Control!" then ,too?

Posted by: T.Hunter at December 14, 2012 07:21 PM (EZl54) "

Caring about Mexicans is racist.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:20 PM (AoWJ4)

697 BackwardsBoy

They just see it as the right way to live. This isn't a new idea, but it was codified within Christianity, so there's that.

It was "codified" upon their hearts.

Romans 1.

http://tinyurl.com/bro95f8

Everybody Knows.

Posted by: JDR what used to post as Taqiyyotomist at December 14, 2012 08:21 PM (e7KZr)

698 "564 548 I agree. Actually if you want to push the issue this whole incident is just an element of the process of natural selection. Which is outside "morality". If atheism is to have any internal consistency-
Posted by: DAve, who wonders at December 14, 2012 07:20 PM (XDC0v)

now you are striking at the core of the problem in the conservative - liberal contest - logical coherence.

liberalism/socialism/communism are illogical at their cores - the more quickly this is brought to the for of our dialogue the sooner.

Posted by: yankeefifth at December 14, 2012 07:23 PM (Z9EHQ) "

Illogical? Never heard of it.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:21 PM (AoWJ4)

699 "567 How much is "a few"?

Is 11 days before Christmas "a few" days before Christmas?

It is if you are me trying to exploit a tragedy in order to sway the public into giving up more of their constitutional rights!

HaHaHa!!!!

Posted by: Brian Williams at December 14, 2012 07:23 PM (AzwZn) "

Leftists? Exploit tragedies? Never.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:23 PM (AoWJ4)

700 >>>liberalism/socialism/communism are illogical at their cores - the more
quickly this is brought to the for of our dialogue the sooner.


There are some bad assumptions about hummanity, and a LOT of lying for political advantage, but no, as outlined in The Republic. Communism is brutally logical.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 08:24 PM (0q2P7)

701 "571 >>>Not to say that person cannot be moral, they still have a link to morality as I've said, only that their decision to be moral is not logically based.

My desire to eat pizza is not logically based. Logic is a small part of our brains.

Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:24 PM (LCRYB) "

Hmmm.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:25 PM (AoWJ4)

702 "573 I'm agnostic but I see the societal benefit of the church. If I ever had a kid, he's going every week, should at the very least pick up a few fundamentals of Western civilization.

Posted by: mugiwara at December 14, 2012 07:25 PM (hpYnL) "

Western Civilization? Never heard of it.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:25 PM (AoWJ4)

703 In regards to the last couple paragraphs, it reminds me of a video done in the wake of the Aurora shootings by a guy known as "Movie Bob" (he's a movie review guy for The Escapist).

It's primarily about censorship of violent movies, video games, etc. as a response to violence in society, but there are certain aspects of it that apply here. In particular, for instance, he says "You cannot accurately predict the actions of a madman. That's what makes him a madman." Also, he makes a good point about how it's psychologically comforting to just "do something" in the wake of a tragedy, but in reality you can't punish innocent people for crimes another person MIGHT commit.

Granted, I don't know what his views on gun control are - he may very well be strongly supportive of them - but I do think this video is, at the very least, useful in the contemplation of how to respond to events like this. And, beyond that, I'm sure that at some point some media outlet will do their best to connect this event to a movie or a video game or a song, which would, of course, make the video even more relevant (granted, the connection was a lot more obvious with the Aurora shootings, but the issue does seem to inevitably pop up whenever a tragedy like this occurs).

Here's the link:

http://tinyurl.com/d9b52ds

Posted by: Warhawk at December 14, 2012 08:27 PM (ERADa)

704 "575 I argue that the world advanced into the light of knowledge BECAUSE of the widespread adoption of Christianity.

I wouldn't. I'd argue that Islam was a net hindrance and Christianity may have been a net benefit (for too many reasons to get into here, but a lot of it came from the presence of the Reformation and the pluralism of Christianity) but I think China slowed because they unified quickly and, without war or capitalism, development just doesn't happen and people are satisfied with their peasant lifestyle.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 07:25 PM (b65cm) "

Christianity + the parts of Antiquity preserved, guarded, and improved upon by Christianity.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:27 PM (AoWJ4)

705 693 Craig,

Have you read/listen to interview with Tolkien on his Christian beliefs. Tolkien explains his Christian beliefs are obvious in LOR if "you are paying attention and know what to look for". I've have agnostic/atheist friends absolutely croak when they heard or read the interviews.
Not Tolkien too...Nooooooo

Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 08:28 PM (OTWsz)

706 674 "But I still don't think that God or Christ or Christianity is *required* to have a sense of morality and what is Good in the universe. "

I would agree that most religions share in common many ethical beliefs. Certainly Ghandi and others demonstrated that morality is not limited to Christians or Jews practicing JudeoChristian ethics. So is there any real difference in ethics/morals between a Hindu or Buddhists's, or of an ethical Atheist?

C.S. Lewis was once asked what set Christianity apart from other world religions. His reply
: that's easy, it's Faith. By this he explain that Christ taught this unique idea: although a moral life and doing acts of good will were a reflection of your belief in the teachings of Christ, they did not provide the path to complete unification (salvation) with God during life or after death. In other words, good works can't buy your way into heaven. Faith meant one's belief that our darkness and failures to match the nature of God would forever separate us from God without the sacrifice of Jesus. We all blow it, and that separates us. That sacrifice alone is what unites us, not our moral deeds.

So, yes there are many examples of non-Christians or Jews who have contributed a great deal to humanities growth in ethical insights, but that does not pave their road to God.
Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 08:05 PM (OTWsz)

All day long I could quote you people. This whole thread is being saved to my drive, instead of just cuntpasting a few comments to my cool sh*t people said on Ace folder. Or my funny sh*t people said on Ace folder.

"you people." Yeah, I said it.

Posted by: JDR what used to post as Taqiyyotomist at December 14, 2012 08:30 PM (e7KZr)

707 "578 --Begin sarcasm--

It is clear we need to make all sufferers of Asperger's and Autism register with the government. There must be a 3 day waiting period before you can have the sufferer as well.


And a massive agency to regulate sufferers.

--End sarcasm--

Posted by: Deathknte at December 14, 2012 07:26 PM (TEf54) "

Armbands. There should be armbands.


And sexy uniforms for everyone else. (Including some sort of different armband.) (Preferably with a Hindu/Buddhist symbol imported from India.)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:30 PM (AoWJ4)

708 Madalyn Murray O'Hair is the only true Atheist, and Nothing is her Profit.

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 08:31 PM (BVkEs)

709 I had to turn the radio off in the car on the way home for work. I cryed all the way. All of those terrified babies. Evil is everywhere.

Posted by: Daily Dish at December 14, 2012 08:31 PM (+b3dK)

710 Wow folks. Just wow.
I am impressed. Truly. The thoughtfulness, and the ability to put those thoughts into coherent words. The ability of some of, no, almost all of you who share my beliefs to explain those beliefs is very gratifying. It's one of the main reasons I removed myself to mainly lurking status.
My side is better off if I just get out of the way.
Grey Fox will be disappointed he missed this.

Posted by: teej at December 14, 2012 08:32 PM (8nDPF)

711 "579 Well Mike I believe in God myself. But I also believe that a society can define some common moral truths and raise their children to (mostly) follow those morals without a belief in Christ.

The communists are not only attacking Christianity although its a big foe for them, they are attacking all morality because 1) society looses morals and fails. 2????? 3) communists are in charge and world is magically perfect (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, ..... just did it wrong or something)

Posted by: PaleRider at December 14, 2012 07:26 PM (dkExz) "

Yes. An Atheist society defining "common moral truths" and indoctrinating children/everyone with them. What could possibly go wrong?

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:32 PM (AoWJ4)

712 >>>I've have agnostic/atheist friends absolutely croak when they heard or read the interviews.

" Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.

— "Valaquenta", The Silmarillion


That didn't clue them in?

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 08:33 PM (0q2P7)

713 705Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 08:28 PM (OTWsz)

===


Not as familiar with Tolkien. Research is my friend. Thanks

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 08:35 PM (BVkEs)

714 Christianity + the parts of Antiquity preserved, guarded, and improved upon by Christianity.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:27 PM (AoWJ4)


No question about the evolution of our Civilizing principals. As I mentioned, the Mormons seem to have a pretty good version of an Operating System.



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 08:36 PM (bb5+k)

715 "586 Thinking is wrong. And is against the will of No-God. And Science.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 07:03 PM (AoWJ4)

I read a great essay last year regarding the eventual collision between Atheists and Muslims in Europe. I wish I had saved the link, but I still remember the point it made. When the Muslims gain the upper hand politically, the Muslims are not going to respect Atheist arguments at all. The Atheists will either convert or die.

The Article further argued that the only possible way to oppose a belief is with another belief. A lack of Belief will simply not persuade a believer. In other words, the only force on Earth that could save Atheists in Europe was a belief in the Meme of Christianity strong enough to hold back the Muslim Meme. Absent that, freedom of speech and thought would be extinguished there, because that is ONLY a product of Christian Philosophy.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:29 PM (bb5+k) "

Well, Atheists don't seem all that interested in freedom of speech or thought. Their own asses? Maybe. But hating Christianity is just so much more fun. And hip. And logical.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:37 PM (AoWJ4)

716 When Christianity was translated into languages that everyone could read -- late 1500's, or so -- it enabled the scientific enlightenment of the 1700s and the subsequent industrial revolution of the 1800s.

If the Dreaded Crusades had not done the (good for Hollywood) Braveheart thing and stopped Islam from taking all of Europe? The whole earth would be bronze-age, or less, in 2012.

What an alternate history that would be.

Posted by: JDR what used to post as Taqiyyotomist at December 14, 2012 08:37 PM (e7KZr)

717 Freudian slip aisle 706 re JDR.
But it's a great one. D)

Posted by: teej at December 14, 2012 08:40 PM (HT2Nt)

718 >>>1) society looses morals and fails. 2????? 3) communists are in charge and world is magically perfect

You have to dismantle the concept of God to have communism. Because to accept the premise of communism you have to see Man's innate individuality as a flaw that can be programmed out of him with conditioning. Almost all religious beliefs reject the concept that man's individuality is some sort of unwanted trait.

Once the absolute moral authority no longer exists (or is disbelieved) the architects of society are free to redefine morality so that the masses best serve the ruling class as a single steerable personage. Rather than millions of independent individuals.

Like I said. They are nothing if not brutally logical.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at December 14, 2012 08:41 PM (0q2P7)

719 "593 540 I'm looking back at, say, the 1300s to 1400s, with constant rape, murder, vicious war conducted largely against defenseless peasants (look at this nasty little tactic, popular in the English wars in Frace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e ), more rape, more murder, theft, constant bastardy and cuckolding, etc.

Anyway that was in a completely Christianized Europe.


I'd have to argue that among the nobility, few were actually literate enough to read and study the concepts taught by Christ. I'd also argue that belonging to a specified church was treated as a prequisite for vassels following their Lord, King or warchief. In other words, their"religion" had little to do with their actual dedication to following the teachings of Jesus and more to do with political power. The Church was used to control not to instruct in what Jesus actually taught his followers. I don't consider that true Christianization but rather use of (any) religion to gain power.

Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 07:31 PM (OTWsz) "

"They" would have been barbarians. Literally. And the Church would have been trying to make them less barbarous/prevent them from destroying everything in an orgy of barbarian stupidity. But politically-correct, Antichristian history is much more fun.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:42 PM (AoWJ4)

720 In the face of Herod’s atrocity, Matthew quotes the prophet Jeremiah about another time of devestation related to children: “A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more” (Matthew 2:1.

Does your heart ache when you read that?

Just damn.

http://tinyurl.com/cn6zvlk

BibleGateway essay today.

Posted by: JDR what used to post as Taqiyyotomist at December 14, 2012 08:43 PM (e7KZr)

721 Where the fuck were you, Jehovah? Jesus? Allah? Gonesh? Where the fuck were you? It's all a lie. A fucking lie, and now 20 faultless perfect innocent love-creators are gone. That's all they did... love and get loved. And now they're dead. Well done, benevolent God. I'm so fucking pissed right now I can't see straight.

"You see, Doctor, God didn’t kill that little girl. Fate didn’t butcher her and destiny didn’t feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night, He didn’t seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn’t make the world this way. We do."

Posted by: Rorschach at December 14, 2012 08:43 PM (vUK/h)

722 "598
If you have any faith whatsoever in the most basic Western economic principles your argument is moot.

Posted by: Not Ready to Unsock at December 14, 2012 07:04 PM (BgIBZ)

I would argue that Western Economic Principles are based on Western Moral Principles which are based on Christian Principles. As I've mentioned, Adam Smith and Edmund Burke were not only contemporaries, they were good friends who discussed their ideas with each other. Their philosophies dovetail and are synergistic.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 07:32 PM (bb5+k) "

Christian principles? Never heard of them.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:44 PM (AoWJ4)

723 "712 >>>I've have agnostic/atheist friends absolutely croak when they heard or read the interviews.

" Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.

— "Valaquenta", The Silmarillion

That didn't clue them in? "

Perception/Point of view blinds our eyes.


706 JDR I shall wear my "you people" badge (or should I say star?) with pride.

Posted by: Ragnell at December 14, 2012 08:49 PM (OTWsz)

724 717 Freudian slip aisle 706 re JDR.


http://minx.cc/?post=335507

Ctrl-F c*ntpaste.

Posted by: JDR what used to post as Taqiyyotomist at December 14, 2012 08:49 PM (e7KZr)

725 "609 ace in the west we have societal norms, brought about social contracts on pretty much religious tenants, no murderig, no stealing, no lying, etc

if you were to be born where the societal norm weren't necessarily moral o our beliefs.
I brought this up before but remember a few decades ago they found humans on an previously undiscovered island eating humans?

that was there societal norm.
how did our norm come about?

innate goodliness?

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:37 PM (nqBYe) "

Don't think. Watch television and believe what you're told to believe. Because Progress.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:50 PM (AoWJ4)

726 >>What might be an innovation (I don't know enough to say) is the very heavy focus on ethics/empathy in the central myth of Redemption. I'm not sure previous religions placed such a huge focus on ethical behavior itself as a form of worship.

I'm constitutionally an agnostic, not an Atheist (silly pseudo-intellectual conceit that is!) not a beliver but I have read fairly widely, if not always deeply, or with much understanding in the "Western Cannon".

I am lateley coming to the idea that the "innovation" in the Christian Redemption 'myth', isn't it's superior code of ethics / morals. I think that you kind of approach it when you use the term empathy but I don't think that's quite there though either...

I think that it might be the case that the most powerful, most revolutionary, "innovative" idea contained in Christianity is the worth of the individual. Not the family, not the ancestors, not the tribe, not the nation, not a divine clockwork order that ticks on, round and round with souls riding an eternal ferris wheel.

I don't think you can ascribe the worth of *the individual*, any old individual, as a major tenet of any other major world religion / philosophy.

Eh. What do I know?

Still don't really buy a dude in beard and sandals, son of JAWEH as likely to be true. Just for little old vicious sand weasels just like ME?

But what if it WAS?

That gives me goosebumps.

Usually when I listen to Bach or Handel, truth be told but the idea has been sneaking up on me.





Posted by: Deety at December 14, 2012 08:52 PM (8eLGd)

727 "614 Islam societal and cultural norms are what comparedly to ours or the west in general?

and why?

Posted by: ette at December 14, 2012 07:39 PM (nqBYe) "

Equal and/or superior. Because Hitler.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:53 PM (AoWJ4)

728 "618 >>Individualism? Never heard of it.

Nice bubble you have here.


Posted by: garrett at December 14, 2012 07:40 PM (bGwJy) "

Retard much?

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 08:55 PM (AoWJ4)

729 "631 I'm thinking the corpse of anyone who murders like this and then kills themselves should very publicly be handed over to the official state necrophiliac for as long as it interests them, then tossed into a dumpster and transported to the local landfill for final disposal. And if they don't off themselves...well, the corpse fucker is a patient man. He'll get his chance one way or another, eventually.

It might not deter the next one who's contemplating a mass killing, but I'm willing to roll the dice.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at December 14, 2012 07:46 PM (6WVi+) "

So you see, Progress.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 09:01 PM (AoWJ4)

730 "638 617 Ace,

You'll love taking a look at "Goreonism" the neo Gaia cult with Malthusian overtones that has EPA as its warrior priests....

The bad news is Christianity is dead as a force of national cohesiveness.....

the "good news" is the Donks have replaced it with Marx as sword and Goreonism as shield.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:49 PM (LRFds) "

Christianity never stays dead for long.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 09:03 PM (AoWJ4)

731 It's a cognitive disconnect. Nathan Fillian occasionally pops off with some Liberal Blather, but He also said his work as Malcolm Reynolds was the finest and most thoughtful work he has ever done.

That the Persona of Malcolm Reynolds pretty much describes a right-wing\Libertarian sort of guy, simply does not register with him. The Right has been so demonized by his associates that he doesn't even recognize it when he plays it on television.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 06:30 PM

Whenever something like this happens and there's the cry from liberals for massive gun bannings, I think of the movie Serenity[/]i. In that movie the goal of the government was a utopian world without violence. They tested out drugs on a population of a planet. They drugged an entire planet of people to 'sedate' them. The drug was supposed to make them non-violent/non-aggressive. Instead, what it did was make them non-everything. Not only did they stop being aggressive, they stopped wanting to do... anything. Stopped working, stopped walking, stopped eating and, eventually, stopped breathing.

Of course, 10% of the population had a different reaction to the drugs and became overly violent and deranged (rape, mass murder, cannibals).

And then there was the irony of the government sending out assassins to kill anyone who would inform the universe of this.

I think of liberals' delusional belief that they can create a utopian society if they can just take away enough liberty, take away enough freedom and pass enough laws. Recall the videos from the environazis where they pushed a button to kill school children who didn't believe in AGW. That's the liberal mindset.

The end justifies the means for these people, even if the end -- utopia -- is impossible. As we cannot legislate away evil from the world.

Posted by: Clyde Shelton at December 14, 2012 09:03 PM (vUK/h)

732 "639 MUMR your snark isn't all that funny

Posted by: JDP at December 14, 2012 07:49 PM (60GaT) "

I care about your feelings. Tell me some more. And let me get a tampon for you.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 09:03 PM (AoWJ4)

733 "659 652 MUMR,

Don't get me started.

My wife was told implicitly you cannot wish ANYONE a Merry Christmas at work.

No restrictions on ANY other faith.

In the end all faith are equal but all are more equal than one.

Posted by: sven10077 at December 14, 2012 07:57 PM (LRFds) "

Heh.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 09:11 PM (AoWJ4)

734 "667 You won't like this answer, and you've heard it 1000 times, but they had
that idea for the same reason Christianity does -- that if you survey
the creation and god-myths of the past 10,000 years they have a fair
number of points in common.

Why wouldn't I like it? It's true.

The difference is that Judaism developed the idea of a supernatural God, not a natural one or natural ones (god of thunder, etc.). Christianity threw away the rulebook (Leviticus, more or less), simplified morality and humanized God.

But my point is, why would this culture even think of this idea?

You want the boogieman. You NEED the boogieman.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 14, 2012 08:03 PM (b65cm) "

No. You want love.


(This obsession with controlling others isn't good, healthy, noble, or Godly.)

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 09:15 PM (AoWJ4)

735 "669 But I still don't think that God or Christ or
Christianity is *required* to have a sense of morality and what is Good
in the universe.





Posted by: ace at December 14, 2012 07:32 PM (LCRYB)

Not Christianity per say, but something like it.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 14, 2012 08:03 PM (bb5+k) "

Something like it. Like say... Christianity.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 09:16 PM (AoWJ4)

736 >>It gives keys out in pairs, with two keys necessary to open the safe.

WRONG!!!

I have to shoot the gun, I know the *keypad* combo to the gun-safe in my classroom.

Not going to go chasing down the hallway after some 24 year old bint who doesn't have the fucking judgement not to sleep with her high school students and might even be giving head in the boys John right now.

I hear "Lock-Down", I lock the door, get the gun, tell the students where to hide, turn out the class-lights and fucking wait...

Posted by: Deety at December 14, 2012 09:16 PM (8eLGd)

737 "708 Madalyn Murray O'Hair is the only true Atheist, and Nothing is her Profit.

Posted by: CraigPoe at December 14, 2012 08:31 PM (BVkEs) "

There is no God, and Karl Marx is hiz prophet.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 09:29 PM (AoWJ4)

738 I have a husband and son who I say "puts the ass in asbergers." Although I am starved for love, I will say thatthey would not take another life. Asberger disorder means that the person doesn't pick up on social cues. They don't even know their deficiency. So there is no way someone with asbergers would kill.

Posted by: DomesticGoddess at December 14, 2012 09:33 PM (WnU/w)

739 Later, all.

God bless.

Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 14, 2012 09:39 PM (AoWJ4)

740 >>If there is no just God, then morality is for chumps. Sure, you can restrain your behavior based on some nebulous set of beliefs, but recognize that it is irrational to do so.

The rational person will -- and should -- lie, cheat, steal and, yes, kill, if he believes it is to his benefit.

Good thing there is no such thing as a "rational person" then, no?

I heard about one once, but he was perfectly spherical and lived on a frictionless plane.

Tried to skate out to meet this paragon...

Posted by: Deety at December 14, 2012 09:54 PM (8eLGd)

741 >>I have a husband and son who I say "puts the ass in asbergers." Although I am starved for love, I will say thatthey would not take another life. Asberger disorder means that the person doesn't pick up on social cues. They don't even know their deficiency.
Posted by: DomesticGoddess at December 14, 2012 09:33 PM (WnU/w)

{{{DomesticGoddess}}}

Fake Internet Affection.

You probably aren't starved for love, you just keep "loving" enough for 3 people.

That's amazing!

You should have good friends to give yougood hugs though!

Posted by: Deety at December 14, 2012 10:16 PM (8eLGd)

742 http://www.salon.com/2009/03/26/bauer_autism/

Posted by: Keating Willcox at December 14, 2012 11:16 PM (YZxuS)

743 my feeeeewings

missed this one. i'm just saying, short responses are fine, just maybe put some more thought into things? you're like the reverse jimi ray.

Posted by: JDP at December 15, 2012 03:01 AM (8HhF2)

744 Look, if you're going to complain about politicking and such so soon after the shooting, when are you going to string up Huckabee on a lamp-post for saying we get this because we aren't having the tykes praying?

And also, when WOULD be a good time to discuss policy implications? Do I need to make an appointment?

Posted by: zuch at December 15, 2012 01:41 PM (DOMqh)

745 The ABC link has removed the 4:52 quote you have posted... Far be it from them to add to the other than the liberal side of the argument...

Posted by: jfry at December 15, 2012 03:08 PM (bwsyD)






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