What Does Let It Burn Mean?

As one of the first, if not the first, people to say Let It Burn, I’m clearly thrilled with the growing chorus of voices joining the movement.

Like any movement, there are true believers and Let It Burn In Name Only (LIBINO) types. Since it’s never too early to purge a movement of its impure elements, let us lay out some key principles of Let It Burn.

1- America isn’t a conservative country anymore and hasn’t been for a while. Yes, you can point to lots of surveys that show people identify themselves as conservatives and they even say government should be doing fewer things.

The fact is, a conservative country doesn’t “accidentally” elect Barack Obama twice. It doesn't continue to send Democrats to the Senate who voted for ObamaCare and force the GOP to run as the saviors of Medicare.

People want the ever expanding welfare state, they simply don’t want to have to pay for it. They are happy to pretend they can “ask the rich to pay a little more” (it won't work) or to pile on debt for some generation to be born later to pay for it. What they are very clear about in their votes is...”don’t you dare touch my “free” stuff”.

One foundation of conservatism is to see the world as it is, imperfections and all, and not the way we wish it to be. Unless we can admit the reality of the country we are living in, Let It Burn makes no sense.

If you think we're just one or two tactical moves and a great candidate away from political victory, you're not in the Let It Burn camp.

2- Gabe and several commenters yesterday wondered, why isn’t Bob Corker’s “tax cuts now, entitlements later” idea consistent with Let It Burn?

The answer is simple: It’s a deliberate action is based on doing several things- raising taxes and then magically reforming entitlements.

Even if the GOP managed to "win" this standoff with Obama by generating more revenue through tax reform than hiking tax rates, who cares? We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.

“Let It Burn” is about inaction. There’s no point in trying do anything that avoids going over the fiscal cliff/sequestration. Remember, the deal that got us to this point was agreed to by House Republicans, Senate Democrats and signed by Obama. That’s as bi-partisan as it gets. I’ve heard from squishy low information voters, Obama and the media that “bi-partisan problem solving” is the Holy Grail of politics. Well, here it is.

Will it lead to massive disruptions? Yes. That’s the point. The current system is rigged against conservative. We should play no part in its perpetuation. If you can’t win the game, concede and start new one. That’s the heart of Let It Burn.

This isn't some petty "I lost so I'm taking my ball and going home" tirade. This is what people want. It's simply not sustainable. If we can't stop them, we don't have to continue to enable them either.

Bill Kristol has a column attacking the Wall Street Journal for opposing any tax hikes. John Podhoretz challenges any conservative to argue with it. Well, I just did.

What Podhoretz should have done is challenge any Republican to argue against Kritol’s analysis. That can’t be done in a serious way.

We need to start disassociating conservatism from the GOP. We’ve tried it for 30 years. It hasn’t worked.

We’ve tried to save the country from the folly of expanding liberalism and the country said, “we don’t want to be saved”. Let It Burn just means letting them have what they want and rebuilding later.

After 2010 I had some hope that we might be able to turn this massive welfare state around. The full implementation of ObamaCare means that isn’t going to happen. At least not absent a total collapse of our fiscal house of cards.
Let It Burn isn’t an option, it’s an eventuality. The questions are will we be complicit in it any longer and do we want to delay it? I say no. Let the liberals own it. Very few things are made better by delaying the day of inevitable reckoning.

The sooner it burns, the sooner we can try and rebuild.

Posted by: DrewM. at 09:57 AM



Comments

1 I think it should be Let It Burn in Designation Only (LIBIDO). Just because.

Posted by: Botec at December 10, 2012 10:00 AM (zAVNp)

2 Some of those who do not understand Let It Burn think it means Ignite It and Let It Burn.

They seem to think there is no fire yet.

There is.

It's big and getting bigger every day.

Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:02 AM (9gcmf)

3 It means arson is fun

Posted by: alex of the order of arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:02 AM (uFY4s)

4 There is no hope of changing the game while you're playing by it's rules. The rules were penned to ensure you'd lose. Prepare. Let it go under it's own weight. Save those you can and to hell with the rest.

Posted by: Todd Bridges, first to go bad, last to go down at December 10, 2012 10:03 AM (qL20/)

5 The problem is that what arises from the ashes isn't going to be designed by Madison and Jefferson, it's going to be designed by Pol Pot and Stalin wannabees.

Posted by: Mike Jonze at December 10, 2012 10:04 AM (epWQP)

6 It's time for America to experience the full glory of the Liberal State.

Posted by: Marie at December 10, 2012 10:04 AM (P9OJs)

7 I love arson

Posted by: alex of the order of arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:05 AM (uFY4s)

8 Whatever would give you the silly notion that the democraps/communists would be blamed for total fiscal collapse? The takers still blame Bush for the economy. The GOP will be blamed for the collapse as well. Facts are no longer relevant.

Posted by: MarkJ at December 10, 2012 10:05 AM (tl7W6)

9 Damn right. Let the Republicrats and Democans OWN IT. My children will help with the rebuilding. They all have CHL's, fiat insurance, are conservative, and don't take no shit. LET IT BURN.

Posted by: Getsome at December 10, 2012 10:05 AM (FmyWU)

10 All hail DrewM...creator of the meme.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 10, 2012 10:05 AM (GsoHv)

11 Burning things is fun

Posted by: alex of the order of arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:05 AM (uFY4s)

12 Let It Burn is democratic. People voted for this. The fact that they didn't admit what the eff they were doing is irrelevant.

Posted by: Alice's Clone Army at December 10, 2012 10:05 AM (7PEUL)

13 The problem is that what arises from the ashes isn't going to be designed by Madison and Jefferson, it's going to be designed by Pol Pot and Stalin wannabees.
Posted by: Mike Jonze at December 10, 2012 10:04 AM (epWQP)

There is no way of knowing that.

If there is risk of that then it is best to collapse things now while the USA still has millions of fully armed law-abiding and decent citizens.

Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:06 AM (9gcmf)

14
I nominate this as the official Ace of Spades LIB theme song. http://tinyurl.com/c46j8b

Posted by: Foul Harold at December 10, 2012 10:06 AM (m/WmK)

15 I said Cliff Divin' first.

note it and send me my royalties

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 10:06 AM (FpBe1)

16 Burn

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:06 AM (uFY4s)

17 Whatever would give you the silly notion that the democraps/communists would be blamed for total fiscal collapse? The takers still blame Bush for the economy. The GOP will be blamed for the collapse as well. Facts are no longer relevant.
Posted by: MarkJ at December 10, 2012 10:05 AM (tl7W6)

What makes you think anyone owes the GOP any particular loyalty?

Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:06 AM (9gcmf)

18 Mr. Burns

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:07 AM (uFY4s)

19 let it burn

Posted by: stevierayv at December 10, 2012 10:08 AM (wwkHG)

20 Yes, the fire rises.

Posted by: Bane at December 10, 2012 10:08 AM (SOGo4)

21 General burnside

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:08 AM (uFY4s)

22 LIB

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:09 AM (uFY4s)

23 Spread propaganda.

Move to a red State.

Go Galt.

Prepare.

Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:09 AM (9gcmf)

24 the GOP isn't conservative?

well, steal my knickers and call me butter bean

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 10:09 AM (FpBe1)

25 LET IT BURN LIKE TOKYO

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:09 AM (uFY4s)

26 Move to Nebraska. We need the residents. Plus we are friendly and don't bit very often

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:10 AM (uFY4s)

27 LET IT BURN!

Posted by: Agnes at December 10, 2012 10:10 AM (7pZVA)

28 The United States is a unique experiment, it would be against the odds for lightning to strike twice.

Posted by: Mike Jonze at December 10, 2012 10:10 AM (epWQP)

29 always remember kiddies you must always burn the village to the ground to save the village

Posted by: stevierayv at December 10, 2012 10:10 AM (wwkHG)

30 24 hi butterbean

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:10 AM (uFY4s)

31 Let it burn
Let the chickens come home to roost
Let the grasshoppers freeze and starve


They wanted it, let them have it. Sometimes the kid needs to burn his hand before he learns not to touch the hot stove.

Posted by: Fersboo at December 10, 2012 10:10 AM (zPa3K)

32 "Let It Burn just means letting them have what they want and rebuilding later."

They don't want a middle class tax hike. If that happens, the GOP will get blamed, and then in 2015 we'll have Speaker Pelosi, single payer health care, mass amnesty, and whatever else the Dems feel like passing with complete control of the government.


Posted by: Jon (not the troll) at December 10, 2012 10:10 AM (1wPNG)

33 The me, LiFB is to quit working hard to make the Democrat's insane policies almost work, and being demonized for doing it.

Quit being the tax collector for the welfare state.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 10, 2012 10:11 AM (QupBk)

34 move to Nebraska, where the conservative governor wins every county, even the ones with Indian reservations

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:12 AM (uFY4s)

35 Fire can be both beneficial or lethal. The only fly in the ointment of letting it burn is being far enough away so as not to be consumed by it.

Beyond that, let's say the thing does burn down to the ground? What next? Cloward, Piven and the usual gang of freaks anticipate that they will be the ones to pick up the pieces and fashion society as they see fit.

How do we prevent that from happening? And more crucially, at the risk of sounding "bankable," we know we are going down, and that we are in for a world of hurt. The system is completely broken and we have very little legal redress of grievances in the courts.

Short of a coup, as the brave Hondurans did a few years ago, I see very few good alternatives. It is definitely going to burn. What happens during and after the conflagration is the big question.

I'm rambling. I'll shut up now.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:12 AM (XkWWK)

36 I know this gets old, but per the Heritage Foundation, in 2009 the top 10 percent of income earners earned 43% of the income and paid 71% of federal income taxes.

The Treasury is too reliant on the earnings of a slim minority of tax payers.

Posted by: boniface ballers at December 10, 2012 10:12 AM (l3RZ9)

37 All those loners that holed up in the mountains of Montana with tons of weapons and ammo were only ahead of their time.

Posted by: Roy at December 10, 2012 10:12 AM (VndSC)

38 35 "bankable,

Should be "ban-able"

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:12 AM (XkWWK)

39 Let it burn!


Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 10:13 AM (GQ8sn)

40 Move to Nebraska where the most conservative canadite wins

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:13 AM (uFY4s)

41 The United States is a unique experiment, it would be against the odds for lightning to strike twice.
Posted by: Mike Jonze at December 10, 2012 10:10 AM (epWQP)

It was not born of random chance.

It was constructed by people who rebelled against the established order and had know idea they would win and no idea what they would face even if they did win.



Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:13 AM (9gcmf)

42 As I said in the Open Thread, "Let It Burn" is less a strategy than the acceptance of a grim reality; the country is about to endure a Soviet Union style collapse because our economy cannot support our social programs and general government spending. (Just as the Soviet Economy could not support its military).

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at December 10, 2012 10:13 AM (QXlbZ)

43 Grew up in a small rual community with a volunter fire department. By the time they got on site of any fire their only job was to try andkeep it from spreading. Their unofficial motto was "Well, we saved the foundation."

Posted by: mattm at December 10, 2012 10:13 AM (jUV35)

44 37 All those loners that holed up in the mountains of Montana with tons of weapons and ammo were only ahead of their time.
Posted by: Roy at December 10, 2012 10:12 AM (VndSC)


Yikes, I think you're right. Go long on foreskin reattachment surgery.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:14 AM (XkWWK)

45 Montana has democrat senators

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:14 AM (uFY4s)

46 44 wtf foreskin

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:14 AM (uFY4s)

47 Why do you think it will be better aftera collapse? 50% of the population will still be stupid, uneducated, lazy, and will blame the rich for everything. We've got to stop ignoring the popular culture and start working to change it.

Posted by: Grim at December 10, 2012 10:14 AM (tO352)

48 Drew, there won't be anything to rebuild.Do you see the Greeks pausing at the precipice to reexamine their commitment to socialism? Has California given any indication that it might be thinking the blue state model?
I just want to see the socialists and their legions of useful idiots experience some pain.
I'm all for Let It Burn, but don't delude yourself into thinking it's going to fix anything. The answer will be more unions, more taxes, more borrowing. When it burns, and they can't tax anymore, or borrow anymore, then Obama's Hordes will riot, first buring their own neighborhoods (because mobs aren't rational) then they'll come for yours.

Posted by: Sam In VA at December 10, 2012 10:15 AM (rFiOs)

49 Iowa should burn

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:15 AM (uFY4s)

50 "We need to start disassociating conservatism from the GOP. We’ve tried it for 30 years. It hasn’t worked."

I honestly don't see how 'conservatism', an array of sometimes disparate ideas, wins elections orinfluences real-world outcomes unless there is a nuts-and-bolts political vehicle to implement those ideas in the real-world. If, for example, you argued that conservatives within the Republican Party urge GOP elected officials to withdraw from the fiscal cliff negotiations, then yes, 'Let It Burn' is a viable strategy.

I could also buy into the idea of starting a viable third party movement to supplant the Republican Party. There is historical precedent for this. The Whig Party refused to deal with the slavery issue head-on, and as a result withered away, its members gravitating toward the Republicans, as Lincoln did. Whigs became Republicans because, unlike Whigs,Republicans stood on principle, Republicans fought. Not so much any more, but you get the idea.

All you're advocating is a party split and a retreat into irrelevance.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 10:15 AM (vtiE6)

51 "Let It Burn just means letting them have what they want and rebuilding later."

They don't want a middle class tax hike. If that happens, the GOP will get blamed, and then in 2015 we'll have Speaker Pelosi, single payer health care, mass amnesty, and whatever else the Dems feel like passing with complete control of the government.


Posted by: Jon (not the troll) at December 10, 2012 10:10 AM (1wPNG)

So?

Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:15 AM (9gcmf)

52 let it burn like my crotch after I had a one nighter with Sandra Fluke

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 10:16 AM (FpBe1)

53 Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:06 AM (9gcmf)
No GOP loyalty implied.

Posted by: MarkJ at December 10, 2012 10:16 AM (tl7W6)

54 Government should be doing less...

for them.

As for me,....GIMME GIMME GIMME.

And that is the problem.

Posted by: RWC at December 10, 2012 10:16 AM (fWAjv)

55 47 50 percent of the population will be dead

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:16 AM (uFY4s)

56 People wanted it, people should get it. Good and hard. They bought into the class warfare. They fully believe that taxing the hell out of the top 1% (now top 2%, but what the hell, nobody's held to account for that) is going to make things all rosy. I want not one single person who voted for this shit sandwich to be insulated from its fallout. What I worry about is that Barry Bongwater gets his beloved tax increases, the economy goes into a complete freefall, yet the idiot masses won't feel the pain. The gov't will wind up the printing presses and ride The Great Welfare Train to every American city coast to coast. People will just be oh-so grateful for their gubbermint check, and will care less that future generations are going to suffer extremely. Question will be...will these idiots really feel the pain like I want them to?

Posted by: Lady in Black at December 10, 2012 10:16 AM (lTVJy)

57 We've got to stop ignoring the popular culture and start working to change it.

No hope of that. That kind of effort will take at least a generation or two and there's only a chance that a majority of the 'reformed' popular culture will finally understand.

Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 10:16 AM (GQ8sn)

58 50% of the population will still be stupid, uneducated, lazy, and will blame the rich for everything.

And dead. Parasites can't survive once they've killed the host.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at December 10, 2012 10:16 AM (QXlbZ)

59 we are all arsonists now!

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 10, 2012 10:16 AM (GVxQo)

60 Their unofficial motto was "Well, we saved the foundation."

Probably serviceable for the LIB movement: "Save the foundation".

Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 10, 2012 10:16 AM (GBXon)

61
The body of our society has been diagnosed with cancer. What's ahead is going to be an ordeal. A contitutional, freerepublicmight still survive but the treatment is going to be painful.It's inevitable.

Posted by: Bat Chain Puller at December 10, 2012 10:17 AM (SCcgT)

62 46 44 wtf foreskin
Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:14 AM (uFY4s)


Alluding to Jewish conservatives trying to join the militia without being tarred and feathered as the Joo-liberals who sold us out. I am NOT of that group, thank you.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:17 AM (XkWWK)

63 Illinois should burn

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:17 AM (uFY4s)

64 Whatever would give you the silly notion that the democraps/communists
would be blamed for total fiscal collapse? The takers still blame Bush
for the economy. The GOP will be blamed for the collapse as well. Facts
are no longer relevant.

----

IMHO.... We cannot be seen as "lighting the fire". In my version of LIB.... we simply give TFG what he wants. But.... we have to be clear his policies are HIS policies. Name the peices of legislation after him.... The Obama Tax Fairness Act, The 2013 Obama Stimulus Package, The Obama Debt Ceiling Adjustment..... etc etc etc..... Boehner and McConnell give speeches on signing day congratulating the President on HIS legislation. Give ongoing speeches about hearing the will of the American and how elections have consequences. You and I know his policies will spectacularly crater the economy.

I other words..... give the administration enough rope to hang themselves.


Posted by: fixerupper at December 10, 2012 10:17 AM (nELVU)

65 My only problem is that collapsing The System is also one of the goals of the Left. They have plans for the post collapse world, and have been working on those plans for about a hundred years.

Posted by: navybrat at December 10, 2012 10:17 AM (Ty7ja)

66 The United States is was a unique experiment, it would be against the odds for lightning to strike twice.

Posted by: Mike Jonze at December 10, 2012 10:10 AM (epWQP)


FIFY

Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB or SMOD (for the Children) at December 10, 2012 10:17 AM (Cnqmv)

67 Fail, I'm afraid, in clarifying the LIB party line. It is NOT all right for Conservative Corker to vote for the new tax world. "Letting them have their way" does NOT mean "vote for them having their way." And in that lies all the recent contention.

Oh yes by all means, move to Nebraska! Wyoming! Texas! Because, you know, Obama is not President there, and none of the laws or regulations of the United States apply. You are absolutely barking mad. As hell.

Posted by: comatus at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (qaVK+)

68 If Sequestration is the best deal we will get on spending reductions, and it seems to be, then no further action from Repubs is needed. Let it go, Boehner.

Posted by: MTF at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (+GpbP)

69 50 percent of the population will be dead

No they won't. Our worst case scenario is not a MadMax world of Lord's of the Wasteland but rather a collapsing Soviet Union of gangsterism and poverty.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (QupBk)

70
Standing by with buckets of gasohol.

Posted by: Wodeshed, President-Dresden Chapter at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (u14nm)

71 burn baby burn.....fiscal inferno

Posted by: phoenixgirl at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (GVxQo)

72 All you're advocating is a party split and a retreat into irrelevance.

I'm sure the Whigs said that, too. See how well that worked out for them...

Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (GBXon)

73

The fact is, a conservative country doesn’t “accidentally” elect Barack Obama twice.

Stuttering Clusterfucks of Miserable Shitfail.

Posted by: eleven at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (KXm42)

74 As a LIBer I would like the actual conflagration to begin after I move out of Milwaukee County with a sale price for my home still based on the idea that the City of Milwaukee (a little south of me) won't be one of the first big problem areas...




Posted by: H Badger at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (n/0Nw)

75 I've been an advocate off and on for 40 years of the break it sooner so it can be fixed plan. Probably not going to live to see it fixed but maybe I'll get to see the shiny fire.

Posted by: Gordon undead Ramsay at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (9HhTH)

76 62 good since us nebraskans circumcize

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:19 AM (uFY4s)

77 The voters have spoken, and now they must be punished.

Posted by: Mayor Koch at December 10, 2012 10:19 AM (+GpbP)

78 Let it burn


http://tinyurl.com/agglvvx

Posted by: kawfytawk at December 10, 2012 10:19 AM (JWLqy)

79 Effin Apostrophes! How do they work?!?

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 10, 2012 10:19 AM (QupBk)

80 Thing is, it's already burning.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 10, 2012 10:19 AM (HoGA+)

81 I stopped reading after a few sentences.

To me "let it burn" means, in part,only having to read a limited amount of Drew twaddle.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (TOk1P)

82 There used to be a nasty, anti-semitic term for arson: Jewish lightning.

I think I might change my nic to that one!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (XkWWK)

83 When it burns, and they can't tax anymore, or borrow anymore, then
Obama's Hordes will riot, first buring their own neighborhoods (because
mobs aren't rational) then they'll come for yours.



I for one, welcome them burning down their own neighborhoods. The stupid FSA won't know what the fuck they're doing to themselves.

Second, I have made preparations for when and if anyone comes to my neighborhood. I'm being realistic when I assume the police will have their hands full and won't be responding to any 911 calls in any reasonable amount of time.

Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (GQ8sn)

84 The big problem I see with LIB is that the country won't actually burn. The implicit assumption is that the whole thing will collapse. I don't think that is likely. What is more likely IMO is that we will just limp along economically for the foreseeable future. We'll become like the society in Brave New World - citizens are happy and dumb, and overweening nanny government "takes care" of everyone. The End. No burning required.

Posted by: chemjeff at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (m/eXi)

85 Rug Burns!

Posted by: Flo at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (E16uG)

86 I am DocJ, running for Local Lord of Bartertown after the collapse, and I approve DrewM's message. In full. Without exception.

Thanks for spelling it out, Drew.

Posted by: DocJ at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (A5uiv)

87 Why do you think it will be better aftera collapse? 50% of the population will still be stupid, uneducated, lazy, and will blame the rich for everything. We've got to stop ignoring the popular culture and start working to change it.
Posted by: Grim at December 10, 2012 10:14 AM (tO352)


Thirty years too late.

Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (9gcmf)

88 Colorado should burn

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (uFY4s)

89 Nebraska is pretty nice . . . hmm.

I would miss hills and whatnot.

Anyway, enabling. That is what we've been doing. That is what we will have to stop.

Liberals cannot lead; they are not sensible. Just hang on as best you can, and don't enable.

It's like my kids, I could sit over their shoulders forcing them to do homework every night, enabling them to a) scratch out decent grades and b) learn that mommy always keeps them afloat.

OR I could do the better thing, and say "your homework is YOUR responsibility sugar" and when the report cards come in and the teachers give them lots of red ink, they will finally learn to take it seriously.

Right now we're swimming in red ink and over half the country is acting like it's no big.

LIB is just. . . let them go. Let them learn on their own.

I touted a similar thing before TARP. God did I hate TARP (and still do). We signed our death warrant with THAT thing. Now let's stop haunting the place and go ahead and "die."

see what happens after.

Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (J6kXj)

90 I could have fixed this mess.

Posted by: Mittney at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (+GpbP)

91
I think I might change my nic to that one!

***

Somebody will Jew you out of it.

Posted by: Wodeshed, President-Dresden Chapter at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (u14nm)

92 I'm not in the " Let It Burn" camp...
Too many consequences to its final outcome...
Which is a dangerous game to play...

Posted by: AmericanDawg at December 10, 2012 10:21 AM (c8hZ5)

93 I'm shocked, shocked I tell you! There are actually some actual conservatives here, not just right-liberals and rah-rah-repukes. You'd better be careful, though - "Let it burn!" is awfully close to alt-right territory (or, as it's more accurately been dubbed, "The Dark Enlightenment"). We've been saying it all needs to come crashing down since at least '08, and many of us for years before that. The respectable right will disown you as evil rayciss NAZIs!!!! if you're not careful.

Posted by: Sheila at December 10, 2012 10:21 AM (Okd9I)

94 Soylent Green is people.

Posted by: Roy at December 10, 2012 10:21 AM (VndSC)

95 Nevada should burn

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:21 AM (uFY4s)

96 So?



Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:15 AM (9gcmf)
So Corker is basically right: The GOP has to cave on rates for the top 2%. Yeah, he's probably wrong that this will improve the prospects for entitlement reform, but that's probably just face-saving.

Posted by: Jon (not the troll) at December 10, 2012 10:22 AM (1wPNG)

97 chemjeff, you may well be right.

here's how that might go:

1) Brave New World (we're there right now)
. . . time passes . .
2) Lord of the Flies (ugly with the weaponry we have)
. . . LOTS of time passes . . .
3) 1984 (if we're lucky)

Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at December 10, 2012 10:22 AM (J6kXj)

98 89 Nebraska is way to hilly

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:22 AM (uFY4s)

99 Many part of a Democrat are edible.

Posted by: zombie Euell Gibbons at December 10, 2012 10:22 AM (QupBk)

100
California burns every year. Hasn't stopped 'em.

Posted by: Wodeshed, President-Dresden Chapter at December 10, 2012 10:22 AM (u14nm)

101 let it burn like my butt hole after a hard night of drinking and eating corn on the cob

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 10:22 AM (FpBe1)

102 Drew, thank you for clarifying that. Some Conservatives thought we were saying to let the country go socialist.

Posted by: Hard Right at December 10, 2012 10:22 AM (uhftQ)

103 Word.

Posted by: Jack at December 10, 2012 10:22 AM (wUFaM)

104 I've been saying "Let It Burn" since 2008. The too-big-to-fail bailouts should have never happened. Instead of the several months of recovery that would be over with by now we face several years of pure suck.


Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at December 10, 2012 10:22 AM (jWsVS)

105 Oh yes by all means, move to Nebraska! Wyoming! Texas! Because, you know, Obama is not President there, and none of the laws or regulations of the United States apply. You are absolutely barking mad. As hell.
Posted by: comatus at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (qaVK+)

Seriously?

Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:23 AM (9gcmf)

106 Bob Costas be good kindlin'

Posted by: Flo at December 10, 2012 10:23 AM (E16uG)

107 100 time to help it along

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:23 AM (uFY4s)

108 Agreed--let it burn. And I also agree we need to disassociate the conservatives from the GOP. We've tried too long and too hard to pull back from the gravitational pull of the ever-growing Welfare State. It's time to cut and run. Let. It. Burn.

Posted by: Holly at December 10, 2012 10:24 AM (JmVgq)

109 anyone who doesn't see the fedgov collapsing in our near future is a Pollyanna.

the question is do you want to be in New York or Cali or PA when that happens? Or in Texas or Nebraska or Indiana?

that's a VERY easy question to answer.

Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at December 10, 2012 10:24 AM (J6kXj)

110 105 We are soveirgn. We, unlike the confederacy are moral and good people.

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (uFY4s)

111 *People want the ever expanding welfare state,*

Lets be clear- when we say "people" we mean the large portion of minorities who voted for Obama- woman, blacks, latinos, and the rich libs who want to "help" these minorities to have everything white folks have because its "fair".

If the election is any indication, there is a significant amount of voters who don't want the expanding wellfare state but apparently, are going to have it shoved down their throats anyway. There's a reason why secession continually is talked about.

Posted by: Matt at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (c4UpU)

112 As other's have noted, the Republicans should just do nothing until after the new Congress is seated. The Sequestration and across the board tax hikes are the best deal we can get from the Democrats. After the new Congress takes office, start passing bills and sending them to the Senate like a machine gun, screaming the whole while that the Senate hasn't voted on a budget in three years.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (QupBk)

113 Let it burn, well yeah but it is going to be the slow burn.
We have been slow burning for years and no politician, especially Republican politicians are going to speed up the process so that the an enlightened people can rise out of the ashes.And frankly, what may rise out of those ashes may not resemble what your hoping for.........At all.

Posted by: Drider at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (HaJD9)

114 I'm warning all of you! You see me here? I'm shaking my finger and looking extra serious.

If this fiscal mess cuts into Michelle's $4 million Hawaiian vacay, you will see the smoke all the way from San Francisco. Next thing you know, you'll have signed me up for an $8 million trip to Fiji, or some damn place. I am afraid, and you should be too- this fiscal cliff shit has bad potential.

Posted by: President For Life Obama at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (+GpbP)

115
107

We'll be needing an old Irish lady in San Francisco, a gas lantern, a shed, and a cow.

Posted by: Wodeshed, President-Dresden Chapter at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (u14nm)

116 You can delay the burn or contain it for a bit.....but what you will accomplish is making your kids have to clean up the mess. And how many 20 or 30 years from now will have the convictions of a free society like the last of us here hanging on by a thread? Imagine if Jefferson, Adams, Washington and their peers had said..."we can tolerate things until King George is gone...then maybe the next King wont tax us quite so much..."...or are kids can deal with it 30 years from now. Its here...the moment you were born for....to restore your nation.

Posted by: John Stark Dark at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (Dk/AO)

117 Move to estonia

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (uFY4s)

118 California burns every year. Hasn't stopped 'em.

Uncle Fed has been helping them along. When there's no more relief coming, they'll break.

Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (GQ8sn)

119 we'll become like the society in Brave New World - citizens are happy and dumb, and overweening nanny government "takes care" of everyone.

Odd use of the the future tense to describe something that already happened.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (QXlbZ)

120


When I find myself surrounded
by the Free Shit Army wherever I turn
I think about my fellow morons,
Let It Burn


Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:26 AM (XkWWK)

121 What I'd rather see is Secession. There are two distinct visions for freedom and the role of government.

While these visions are intertwined geographically, such as conservatives in upstate illinois and liberals in Austin, I think the country breaking peacefully is actually a common sense solution. We would all be a lot happier.

This wouldn't be necessary if we had federalism, but we don't.

Posted by: Dustin at December 10, 2012 10:26 AM (D9999)

122 LIB. If all these people are so ready to tax "the rich", then let them pay more taxes too. I really don't understand 60% of our population buying into class warfare. We are in deep trouble. : (

Posted by: carolina at December 10, 2012 10:26 AM (EFeV9)

123 So the idea is a financial collapse to keep the top tax rate from increasing from 35% to 39.5% which will happen without a deal? Genius. And if there is no deal and additional brackets increase during a recession? Double genius. Stupid Party Chapter 12.

Posted by: RioBravo at December 10, 2012 10:26 AM (eEfYn)

124 Can I get an 'AMEN!'?

L.I.B.

Posted by: Astronaut Achmed at December 10, 2012 10:26 AM (YLZSZ)

125 Hyperinflation is what "let it burn" looks like. It will solve the lowered revenues and increased spending thing. 100%.

Of course, hyperinflation may cause its own problems. Like a complete breakdown of social cohesion.

I'm of the let it burn camp, simply because it can't be avoided.

But...

There are alternatives to US money. Other currencies, precious metals and virtual currencies such a bitcoin.

If hyperinflation gets so bad, we could see these alternative forms take off.

And if they do, then it is good bye libtards.

If they can't control the money supply, they can't control taxation. The federal government will be broke and powerless.

We will all be better off.

Posted by: Guys guys guys at December 10, 2012 10:27 AM (qxcKC)

126 I don't consider myself having any label, ie Conservative, Republican , Libertarian, etc. I align myself with whoever I believe is advocating for the posistions that come naturally and are logicalto me.

Let it burn appears now to be the best of two bad options. The other optionis to proactively fight to change what is going on. Unfortunately that will onlypatch upthe consequences of Democrat positions as it has done for decades. Its like the parent that is constantly bailing out their kid from trouble.

WithLIB, there is a possibility that if you leave the kidin jail and don't bail him out, hemay come to realizehis mistakes. Maybe not, but if you constantly enable him, the chances he will ever learn is nada and he will just make your life more miserable and you will forever lose your chance to change him.

And for the record, my monkey made up LIB long before DrewM ever brought it up.





Posted by: polynikes at December 10, 2012 10:27 AM (m2CN7)

127 121 the confederacy ruined any chances of that

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:27 AM (uFY4s)

128
This is why DeMint resigned from the Senate. He said he was going to the Heritage Foundation, but I really think he is going to work on starting a Third Party.

He saw the handwriting on the wall. How can anyone with any integrity that campaigned on "fiscal responsibility" be any part of this?

Demand that your Senator(s) or Congressman, if they are "Republicans" to either resign or make sure that their fingerprints are not on this abomination of a "Tax and Budget Plan" that is about to emerge.

Budget cuts in the "out years". Right.

I pray for the lives of my children and their future. It is going to burn, and it will be epic.

Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch is Eddie Willers, sure at December 10, 2012 10:28 AM (RFeQD)

129 Dear Santa, Zippo lighter,butane,wicks,extra coal and marshmallows

Posted by: Flo at December 10, 2012 10:28 AM (E16uG)

130 If Sequestration is the best deal we will get on spending reductions, and it seems to be, then no further action from Repubs is needed. Let it go, Boehner.

Posted by: MTF at December 10, 2012 10:18 AM (+GpbP)



This seems to make so much sense to me. Sequestration sucks and is a stupid concept,but at least it had some spending cuts now (most in the wrong places), as opposed to waiting (dick in hand) for entitlement reform. Since it is going to burn no matter what, I wish Boner would stop wasting time trying to build a firewall out of paper, let the House go home for Christmas, and let the bi-partisan sequestration bells ring in the New Year and Obama's coronation.

Posted by: Hrothgar - LIB or SMOD (for the Children) at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (Cnqmv)

131 126 labeling is a natural and neccessary part of human behavior

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (uFY4s)

132 I'm living the dream, baby! Now that the voters have reelected Barack, a nice clean young man if ever there was one, I'm next in line! This "cliff" is just the beginning- wait until I'm in charge!

Posted by: Crazy Joe at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (+GpbP)

133 When you are going to lose the chess game, you might as well kick the board over.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (QupBk)

134 Military coup, but the corruption of the flag officer corps will preclude that.

I think.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (XkWWK)

135 Lets be clear- when we say "people" we mean the large portion of
minorities who voted for Obama- woman, blacks, latinos, and the rich
libs who want to "help" these minorities to have everything white folks
have because its "fair".


BS. I'll cite my parents as anecdotal evidence. They voted for Mittster, consider themselves GOP-to-the-core, and even conservatives - but touch 'their' Social Security (they long-ago exhausted their pay-in plus interest) and 'their' Medicare (also long-ago exhausted) and they'll scream louder than any inner-city gimmee-girl.

It's systemic. It's pervasive. It needs to burn. All of it.

Posted by: DocJ at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (A5uiv)

136 1) Brave New World (we're there right now)

. . . time passes . .

2) Lord of the Flies (ugly with the weaponry we have)


Eh - I don't see why step 2 would necessarily follow from step 1.

The principal argument against socialism is that it stands in contrast to human nature. Well, if human nature is re-engineered enough, then socialism "works", in the sense that it doesn't collapse and fall down.

Posted by: chemjeff at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (m/eXi)

137 Where is Vic and mlmy flame war with him

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (uFY4s)

138
Move to estonia

***

Estonian girls: Not too shabby.

Posted by: Wodeshed, President-Dresden Chapter at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (u14nm)

139 Spending will not be cut.

Deal with it.

Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (9gcmf)

140 57 We've got to stop ignoring the popular culture and start working to change it.

No hope of that. That kind of effort will take at least a generation or two

Perhaps that was true in the past ( and our culture has had the left Gramsci-izing it for about two generations) BUT today there is the internet. We can change the culture at lightening speed if we dare.

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (53riN)

141 Well, good to see DrewM's hubris hasn't been hurt....

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 10, 2012 10:30 AM (da5Wo)

142 Response to Kristol:
Simple solution for the Republicans: Pass a bill that maintains the Bush tax rates for everyone.

Don't touch the fiscal cliff.
Don't cut spending.
Don't deal with the debt ceiling.
No pork.
No special spending programs.

Maintain the Bush tax cuts and pass it to the Senate. Let the Democrats vote to raise taxes.

If Obama and Reid take us over the cliff pass the bill again. "We're dedicated to cutting taxes. The Democrats are not."

Posted by: egd at December 10, 2012 10:30 AM (XVGEg)

143 >>>The sooner it burns, the sooner we can try and rebuild.


Just like Rome got all "rebuilt".

Posted by: Burney McBurnstein fanning the flames of painful freedom at December 10, 2012 10:30 AM (+wxCD)

144 132 moochelle being elected. Just think about it

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:30 AM (uFY4s)

145 Excellent post.



There's really no better alternative.

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at December 10, 2012 10:30 AM (Lvgz1)

146 Basically NEBRASKA can be summed up by two road signs,
along I - 80...
" Welcome to Nebraska " and
" Thank You , hope you had a nice drive "
----------------------------------------------------
Damn ! Almost forgot , The giant - N - on the Cornhuskers helmet stands for Nowledge...

Posted by: AmericanDawg at December 10, 2012 10:30 AM (c8hZ5)

147 Let It Burn just means letting them have what they want and rebuilding later.

1. Let it burn.

2. ?????

3. Conservatives rebuild.

A. Can someone tell me what #2 is? How do conservatives get back into power to do anything?

B. What happened to all the talk about finally getting our heads out of Washington politics and engaging in the cultural battles that turned America from a conservative to a liberal nation? We seem to be doing exactly what we've been doing for the last 50 years.

I don't have many answers myself, and at least Let it Burn is a unifying concept. But Drew's post leaves a gaping hole in the strategy.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 10:30 AM (9KqcB)

148 Posted by: Sheila at December 10, 2012 10:21 AM (Okd9I)

Not enough exclamation points in the that post.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 10:31 AM (sbV1u)

149 Well said.

Posted by: Truman North at December 10, 2012 10:31 AM (I2LwF)

150 143 Rome today is grander than Rome ever Was. It was rebuilt it just took 1600 years

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:31 AM (uFY4s)

151 The very thought of Wookie/Worf/Salt Creature Moochelle as POTUS...

Well, that is just the bitter fucking end.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:32 AM (XkWWK)

152 Just like Rome got all "rebuilt" Posted by: Burney McBurnstein fanning the flames of painful freedom at December 10, 2012 10:30 AM (+wxCD)

It did.

Just not by Romans. That's what the Holy Roman Empire was all about.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 10:32 AM (sbV1u)

153 Is today Change your socks day?

Posted by: dick cheese at December 10, 2012 10:32 AM (QupBk)

154 146 don't those signs mention. Arbor day

Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:32 AM (uFY4s)

155 118 Uncle Fed has been helping them along.

Hell, we just elected a whole bunch of new kindling, we're now a super-majority. No more wet rags and sand. That should start to warm things up nicely.

Mmmm. Toasty.

Posted by: Clutch Cargo at December 10, 2012 10:33 AM (Qxdfp)

156
Why do you think it will be better aftera collapse? 50% of the population will still be stupid, uneducated, lazy, and will blame the rich for everything starving.

FIFY.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 10:33 AM (TULs6)

157 Almost every one who gets a government check feels like they are not taking coerced handouts from their working neighbors. Seniors "paid into FICA for 47 years" Never mind that medicare deductions don't begin to equal insurance costs.

People getting UE benefits "worked and my employer(s) always paid into the pool" Never mind that those premiums might fund up to 26 weeks but the 99 week shit is pure handout, it doesn't feel like a handout.

Almost every gubmint employee thinks they are nobly foregoing the really big private sector bucks --that only very top tier private folks make and that their work is good for the country.

Posted by: Palerider at December 10, 2012 10:33 AM (FYUWS)

158 What Corker and his ilk are arguing is that some sort of incremental solution is available for what is now a discrete problem (or a set of them, I'll get to that). When the crapulus passed in 2009 and became the new baseline budget, incrementalism died a sudden death. Everything that the Fed has done since illustrates our problem: We cannot get out of this without spending cuts, entitlement reform, and a return to federalism. And we cannot do any of those things without some additional pain.

There are currently zero people in our national government who recognize the need for all three.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 10, 2012 10:34 AM (B+qrE)

159 147: "A. Can someone tell me what #2 is? How do conservatives get back into power to do anything?"


Wait. Non-producers eventually starve.

Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at December 10, 2012 10:34 AM (jWsVS)

160 I love the "I started the meme" bullshit.

I know many of you hate
the Ron Paul crowd, but don't be so fucking arrogant and self important
with this "I started" the LIB meme.

Libertarians have been
talking openly about this before the election. The idea that we are in
an irreversible financial collapse was talked about every day on sites
like Monty Pelerin. Many who read those were
advocating a "give them what they ask for" policy to hasten the collapse
and pick up the pieces.

The Libertarians who did note vote for Mitt (was NOT one of them) had already adopted the LIB strategy.

I'm a conservative, with Libertarian
leanings, not the other way round, but I live in the real world and give
credit where credit is due.

Flame away.......

Posted by: Jack Wagon at December 10, 2012 10:34 AM (KUPae)

161 Exactly. Letting it burn is also the plan of the enemy. Cloward-Piven provides a blueprint for the destruction of the current USA, so it can be rebuilt in a Communist model.

5
The problem is that what arises from the ashes isn't going to be
designed by Madison and Jefferson, it's going to be designed by Pol Pot
and Stalin wannabees.


Posted by: Mike Jonze at December 10, 2012 10:04 AM (epWQP)

Posted by: Pyrocles at December 10, 2012 10:34 AM (cv5Iw)

162 It will most likely be a slow burn

but "Let it Simmer!" doesn't have the same kick

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 10:34 AM (FpBe1)

163 153 every day is sock day

Posted by: alex the conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:34 AM (uFY4s)

164 126 labeling is a natural and neccessary part of human behavior
Posted by: alex of the order of conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:29 AM (uFY4s)

Self Labeling is not.

Posted by: polynikes at December 10, 2012 10:35 AM (m2CN7)

165 If Obama and Reid take us over the cliff pass the bill again. "We're dedicated to cutting taxes. The Democrats are not."
Posted by: egd at December 10, 2012 10:30 AM (XVGEg)

What will this achieve?

The USA is addicted to heroin.

Collapse, then rehab.

It is the best we can hope to get.

Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:35 AM (9gcmf)

166
A. Can someone tell me what #2 is? How do conservatives get back into power to do anything?

War and famine.


B. What happened to all the talk about finally getting our heads out of Washington politics and engaging in the cultural battles that turned America from a conservative to a liberal nation?

We don't have another 50 years.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 10:35 AM (TULs6)

167 the question is do you want to be in New York or Cali or PA when that happens? Or in Texas or Nebraska or Indiana?

I'd rather be in rural PA than Gary IN, I think.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 10, 2012 10:35 AM (/kI1Q)

168
Let It Burn is our only option. But you can count on Boehner screwing that up, too. I say we will most definitely will be kicking ass in 2014. If Boehner or Cantor isn't doable, then McCarthy in Californiais the one to go. Pick 'em off one by one.

Posted by: joanne tea partier with a match at December 10, 2012 10:35 AM (VNFBf)

169 Stand on the street corner next to Preacher Bob and hand out copies of "The Road to Serfdom". Then all passerby will be accepting spiritual and econimic-cultural salvation. Success is just around the corner!

Posted by: RioBravo at December 10, 2012 10:35 AM (eEfYn)

170 If they can't control the money supply, they can't control taxation. The federal government will be broke and powerless. We will all be better off. Posted by: Guys guys guys at December 10, 2012 10:27 AM (qxcKC)

Other than that whole "complete breakdown of social cohesion" thingy you mentioned. Yeah, you're right.

It's a minor detail though.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 10:35 AM (sbV1u)

171 Why yes, eman, dead seriously. Where you run to makes no difference whatever. You will not change the national government of the country by running. And retaining Allied Van Lines and a realtor is not "going Galt." Moving to another state does nothing -- nothing -- to minimize your enforced support of the national regime.

It's real tough internet talk. Mostly coming from people on closed-end contracts, who do not own property, impotent as the gypsy grad students of my riotous youth. Close, or cut back, your business enterprise? Yes. Shut off your automatic monthly contribution to the GOP? Meh, maybe. Stop leaving tips in restaurants? A sure winner, you bet. But dumping your holdings at a loss, and moving inside the system to pay the same federal taxes in another ZIP code? Self-flagellation.

Posted by: comatus at December 10, 2012 10:36 AM (qaVK+)

172 The gaping hole in the strategy is there because you cannot plan for what you cannot anticipate.



What happens when the USA goes belly-up? No one knows. Too many variables - Russia, China, Japan, India vs. Pakistan, Middle East already on fire, simmering resentment in Europe as has been since time immemorial, and economic woes across all of the above-referenced nations/continents.



What will happen at home? Fingers will be pointed, looting will commence, it'll be like a scene out of The Dark Knight Rises. We can plan for the known unknowns, but the real pain in the neck is the unknown unknowns.

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at December 10, 2012 10:36 AM (Lvgz1)

173 160 the libertarians make obama look good. Also libertarian party is full of anti semites

Posted by: alex the conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:36 AM (uFY4s)

174 “Let It Burn” is about inaction. There’s no point in trying do anything
that avoids going over the fiscal cliff/sequestration."

More drivel from Drew. LIB is a simple-minded focus on the federal problem. The solution - and the political momentum - is ACTION on the state level. Wisconsin? Indiana? Michigan? The Rust Belt states are moving to the right with practical solutions. Nearly half the states will reject Obamacare insurance exchanges. More will follow after January. The failing Blue states will appeal to the Feds for bailouts in the decade to come. That's where the battle will be. Tea Party 2014.

Oh, and Sarah Palin was right.

Posted by: mrp at December 10, 2012 10:36 AM (HjPtV)

175 Even though I'm fully on the LiFB train, I'm not without hope. The formation of, or capture and conversion of the Republican Party into, an expressly populist party has a chance of a political solution. Going tribal with the "Middle Class" could work.

The other possibility is of one or more states going Federalist and telling the US Government to stuff it. Not Secession though, just saying that they won't take the King's Shilling and won't enforce his edicts.

Posted by: dick cheese at December 10, 2012 10:37 AM (QupBk)

176 I understand "let it Burn" completely, and am in full favor of it. What I take it to mean / hope for is for the failure and collapse of our national government, the end of the thing called "The United States", and its replacement by several successor states. One of which I believe will consist of Texas, the lower midwest, and the Mississippi delta, and which will have it's Capitol in Austin.

At least some of the northern Mexican states could be pulled into this as well - the wealth available from their untapped oil just south of Texas would be phenomenal.

We've got all the infantry we need at Ft. Hood, and if Louisiana comes in (they will) we've got all the Nukes we'll ever need over at Barksdale.

We win because California is too cowardly to seriously think about nuking us, but we're just crazy enough to nuke them if they cause us trouble. Same goes for all the pansy lib states.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 10, 2012 10:37 AM (ekln7)

177 and engaging in the cultural battles that turned America from a conservative to a liberal fascist nation?

FIFY.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 10, 2012 10:37 AM (/kI1Q)

178 J. J., you are a screenwriter, right?

I was commenting the other day that what we really needed is a story in the popular culture clearly illustrating the conservative point of view, that is not didactic but consumable by the mushy middle.

I was just thinking, what about making a "Brave New World prequel"? that is essentially what we are living today. what do you say?

Posted by: chemjeff at December 10, 2012 10:37 AM (m/eXi)

179
I think of it as "tough love" for the new millennium. LIB.

Posted by: Wodeshed, President-Dresden Chapter at December 10, 2012 10:37 AM (u14nm)

180 The left knows it's going to burn, which is exactly what they want.

The 2 sure signs that it is imminent will be a full court press to seize your weapons and ammo (even more concerted now than the last 4 years) and to shut off the internet.

When you start to see stories in the MFM about how these are "desirable" and "wanted by a majority of Americans," then you can really shit your pants.

And it is coming...

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:37 AM (XkWWK)

181 I'm cranking up the Deep Purple...BUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRNNNNN!!!

Posted by: Sidney Allen Johnson at December 10, 2012 10:38 AM (f3TX8)

182 Not Gary. Anywhere but gary

Posted by: alex is afraid of Gary at December 10, 2012 10:38 AM (uFY4s)

183 160 is exactly right. Anyone clued into the real-estate bubble saw blogs dedicated to warning that all of this would happen way back in 2005. People looked at us like we were crazy back then when sustainability was mentioned. Well, here we are.

Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at December 10, 2012 10:38 AM (jWsVS)

184 160 -

You may be right. Libertarians may have invented "let it burn," but I always figure when they're talking about things burning they are referring to their mary jane cigarettes.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 10, 2012 10:38 AM (TOk1P)

185 Well, let me say that a great deal of my membership in the LIB community is simple rage. I have spent my entire adult life watching my presidents and party attacked, degraded and insulted, all with the cooperation of and instigation by, the left. I have been slimed as a racist, mysogynist, God-botherer. And these same people now demand ('ask', like hell!) that I continue working even longer hours and paying higher taxes to fund their lethargy. Fuck them. I want them to take it good and hard.
You can delay the burn or contain it for a bit.....but what you will accomplish is making your kids have to clean up the mess. And how many 20 or 30 years from now will have the convictions of a free society like the last of us here hanging on by a thread? Imagine if Jefferson, Adams, Washington and their peers had said..."we can tolerate things until King George is gone...then maybe the next King wont tax us quite so much..."...or are kids can deal with it 30 years from now. Its here...the moment you were born for....to restore your nation.
Posted by: John Stark Dark at December 10, 2012 10:25 AM (Dk/AO)


And exactly how do you intend to "restore" the nation?

1. More than half are part of the FSA.
2. No-one - and I mean no-one in Congress gives a shit. They are protected no matter what. Their pensions and emoluments will never be touched. They will never be touched.
3. Taking over the GOP from the grass roots - or building the TEA Party into a viable national force - will take at least that "30 years" you reference.
4. There is no more time.

So how do we restore the nation?

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at December 10, 2012 10:38 AM (zF6Iw)

186 Or Detroit.

Posted by: alex is afraid of detroit at December 10, 2012 10:39 AM (uFY4s)

187 'Let it Burn". Isn't that what obama is doing with the Middle East?

Burn Baby Burn

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 10, 2012 10:39 AM (79ueO)

188 Nero: Where's my fiddle?

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 10, 2012 10:40 AM (1Jaio)

189 Or new orleans

Posted by: alex is afraid of new orleans at December 10, 2012 10:40 AM (uFY4s)

190 Just watched a video of some A hole Richard Brodsky? Who the F is he and why do I want to curb stomp him.

LiFB.

Posted by: RWC at December 10, 2012 10:40 AM (fWAjv)

191 what everyone should consider too is that there is a lot more room for demagoguery than we already have seen. witness in england where the top rate on incomes is 50% (not sure what the analog for state income tax would be or even if there is such a thing); in france, the socialists are threatening to put the top rate to 75%. the top earners in france, are already defecting, and the number of million gbp / yr earners in britain has fallen dramatically. yes, there is plenty more room to try to stick it to the rich; we haven't even begun to scratch the surface. what's fundamentally true is that historically (post ww2) this country has paid 19% of GDP in federal taxes, but the current administration and its socialist backers want the government to be 25% of GDP according to current spending and realistically more like 40-50% of GDP like belgium. no one has ever tried to extract that kind of money from the american people, but still there is plenty of room for blaming the rich and the opposition with all the problems.

Posted by: matt foley at December 10, 2012 10:40 AM (ES9kw)

192 I am asking a serious question here. Why not speak to revolution or secession? I don't wish for either but if we really have no recourse and we really feel there is a large number of people who agree with us why is now not the time for a serious discussion for either? At some point those things would have to be on the table. If the house falls that is where we will most likely be.
I honestly don't know if we have reached that point but if we are going to give up on the political front what pray tell is the future? Are we forming our own party? Then we have to go through the machinations of trying to make it work and we've already conceded that it cannot so what would be the point?
How do you start the new game? How do you refresh the board? They statists will still be there even after it crumbles.

It just seems that if we have reached the point of watching it burn and taking no action then we are being indifferent. Indifference when we know what is right is tantamount to evil.

Posted by: kzintius at December 10, 2012 10:40 AM (EN3UW)

193
Other than that whole "complete breakdown of social cohesion" thingy you mentioned. Yeah, you're right.


WHAT social cohesion? We're fighting over the ruins of each other's shit. Social cohesion is SOL any way you slice it.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 10:40 AM (TULs6)

194 Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 10:30 AM (9KqcB)

#2 in the strategy from my perspective is that the financial hardships, regulations, etc that will be implemented by the Dems and will collapse on itself without Mommy and Daddy conservatives to bail them out, will then have enough people (not everyone) wake up to the realities of Dem / Liberal / socialist policies and vote them out. A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.

It may be too late but again, its the best of bad options.

Posted by: polynikes at December 10, 2012 10:41 AM (m2CN7)

195 Republicans should just do nothing until after the new Congress is seated. The Sequestration and across the board tax hikes are the best deal we can get from the Democrats. After the new Congress takes office, start passing bills and sending them to the Senate like a machine gun, screaming the whole while that the Senate hasn't voted on a budget in three years.

This. I don't want it to actually burn. Some out of control wildfires and widespread panic for a few months, OK, but I'd still like to reap the reward for the work I've done in my lifetime.

While I regret that the next generation might not get what should have been there for them, these are the people who voted for Obama twice and so they are in fact getting what's coming to them.

Posted by: Blacksheep at December 10, 2012 10:41 AM (8/DeP)

196 Turning things. I like burning things

Posted by: aaaaaaaaaahhhh fire at December 10, 2012 10:41 AM (uFY4s)

197 178 178 J. J., you are a screenwriter, right?

I was commenting the other day that what we really needed is a story in the popular culture clearly illustrating the conservative point of view, that is not didactic but consumable by the mushy middle.

I was just thinking, what about making a "Brave New World prequel"? that is essentially what we are living today. what do you say?
Posted by: chemjeff at December 10, 2012 10:37 AM (m/eXi)

Hey ChemJeff:

I actually have one in the outline phase, very conservative message but buried enough so that Hollywood can't quite see it.

Also, remember the movie "Attack!" ? I want to do that set soon after the burning.

Oh well, I just gave it away! But I will look at Brave New World again. You never know. Hopefully we will still have a country and theaters and 31.5 ounce sodas.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:41 AM (XkWWK)

198 Global Warming's gonna burn it anyway

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 10:41 AM (FpBe1)

199 How about Let it Barf?

Posted by: dantesed at December 10, 2012 10:41 AM (WUGe0)

200 I suffered through listening to idiot in-law rambling on about how she wants to become a democrap delegate and go to all the big parties, and how when she was in Washington last weekend with her lib buddies they toured the White House and then got to go to a big party that had this great open bar and all this food on the buffet blah blah blah. No mention of who PAID for all this largesse. She got hers, so she thinks all is peachy.


Meanwhile, her in-laws are losing their house, living in penury after working hard for many years, etc. I guess that means I should have gotten that cushy union teaching job she retired from at the ripe old age of 55.


It is burning, let it rage.

Posted by: tcn at December 10, 2012 10:41 AM (VLG62)

201 196 God Damn kindle

Posted by: aaaaaaaaaahhhh fire at December 10, 2012 10:41 AM (uFY4s)

202 Answering my question - another ignorant shit politician. I thought he may have had a background in economics but no. So why the fuck ask him about economics.

Posted by: RWC at December 10, 2012 10:41 AM (fWAjv)

203
This is imbecilic.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 10, 2012 10:42 AM (xIRXC)

204 Lets all move to Alberta. Costs a lot of money though

Posted by: aaaaaaaaaahhhh fire at December 10, 2012 10:42 AM (uFY4s)

205 First lady Michelle Obama is reportedly behind the push to award top Obama campaign fundraiser and Vogue editor Anna Wintour with a European ambassadorship — specifically to France — sources have revealed to The Daily Mail.

A State Department “insider” told the British paper that Wintour is “under consideration” for a diplomatic post.

“Anna Wintour’s friends have expressed an interest in making sure that she is nominated to become an ambassador to a major Western European nation,” the insider said, according to The Daily Mail. “I have had this confirmed from a friend in the political office at the White House. I am also told there is only a slight chance Wintour will end up in London.”

“Paris is her number one choice. I gather Ms Wintour finds the Paris house and grounds particularly spectacular,”

Ah so glad these decisions are made on what's best for America? Yeah Baby, Let it Burn

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 10, 2012 10:42 AM (79ueO)

206 Posted by: comatus at December 10, 2012 10:36 AM (qaVK+)

You get no tears from me.

You can't make a move to another State, a place where your work supports a better local government, because it's too painful for you?

You think other people are wrong because they are not as weak as you?

Moving to a red State is not cowardly or self-serving. It is an act of defiance. It strengthens parts of the USA that need help. Do you really think that those who advocate doing so think they have escaped the Federal Government?

Are you stupid as well as weak-kneed?

Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:43 AM (9gcmf)

207 173 I'm not advocating for the entire Libertarian horde, I'm pointing out the memes origins.

I
have "leanings" in the sense that I believe social issues are driven by
society at large, and should not be the focus of the political parties,
but a responsible government will foster responsible citizens in the
long run, so focus on fiscal responsibility and limited government.

Posted by: Jack Wagon at December 10, 2012 10:43 AM (KUPae)

208
That's why people are saying move to Nebraska or something.

You talk about losing social cohesion... places like Nebraska may lose their mostly fictional and non-existant cohesion with places like California, which is kind of the point. But you will still have that cohesion locally amongst the like minded.

You won't have to worry about your neighbor plundering your ass just because the federal government isn't around. All you gots to worry about is the armies of Okies migrating like locusts. All the better to coher you to your neighbor.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 10:43 AM (TULs6)

209 Theme song for LIB:

"Fire" from The Crazy World of Arthur Brown



("I am the g-d of hellfire! And I bring you... FIRE!")

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 10, 2012 10:43 AM (XkWWK)

210 Things burn better w a gallon of 87 octane poured on it.

Posted by: Dick Nixon at December 10, 2012 10:43 AM (ri7Tj)

211 Since the election I have been telling people to look on the bright side of another four years of Obama. We get to go bankrupt faster. The sooner we crash, the sooner we can start rebuilding our country. We will win in the endonce the world stops taking us seriously.

Posted by: BigBoreCore at December 10, 2012 10:43 AM (z4Cjb)

212 The root of our problem is a corrupt media. Nothing you do will matter because enough low information voters will not hear your arguments. All blame will fall on you.

Fight the root of the problem. Now.

Posted by: GardenGnome at December 10, 2012 10:43 AM (IyKYr)

213 A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.



It may be too late but again, its the best of bad options.

Posted by: polynikes at December 10, 2012 10:41 AM (m2CN7)

Nope. A conservative is a liberal WITH A BRAIN who has been mugged. Otherwise they just blame those nasty conservatives and keep on asking for a handout to get them by.

Posted by: tcn at December 10, 2012 10:44 AM (VLG62)

214 Let It Burn is, at the ultimate, Cloward-Piven from a conservative perspective.

They want to crash the system to make it more socialist-- LiB assumes that the weight of that socialism will be what breaks it to the point of NOT being able to continue the socialism.

Of course, there is the possibility that Obama so strangles the economy that the pain brings everyone to their senses and it doesn't have to get to that ultimate conclusion. In this case, LiB is going to burn just hot enough to teach Junior not to touch the fucking stove.

Posted by: zsasz at December 10, 2012 10:44 AM (RDP+N)

215 Get out of the cities while you can kiddos.

Posted by: cajun carrot at December 10, 2012 10:44 AM (UZQM8)

216 173 160 the libertarians make obama look good. Also libertarian party is full of anti semites
Posted by: alex the conservative arsonists at December 10, 2012 10:36 AM (uFY4s)

As is the democrat party.

Posted by: RWC at December 10, 2012 10:45 AM (fWAjv)

217 "Can someone tell me what #2 is? How do conservatives get back into power to do anything?"

Wait. Non-producers eventually starve.Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at December 10, 2012 10:34 AM (jWsVS)

That's funny, but, really. How long do we stand on the sidelines?

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 10:45 AM (9KqcB)

218 If it does start to burn, I mean really burn, I think we need to have an action plan, because it's not going to magically turn into our Utopia.

When you look at what's happening in Europe, the people are blaming it on nonsense like Goldman Sachs or the rich not paying enough in taxes. I could see just enough Americans coming to the same conclusions. Look at what's happening in California, yet it only expands socialism.

Part of this country is lost for good, and we need to part ways if it starts coming down because it's delusional to think parasites are going to find religion.

Posted by: McAdams at December 10, 2012 10:45 AM (SMxiG)

219 In this case, LiB is going to burn just hot enough to teach Junior not to touch the fucking stove.
Posted by: zsasz at December 10, 2012 10:44 AM (RDP+N)


You dream, General...

Posted by: cajun carrot at December 10, 2012 10:46 AM (UZQM8)

220 WHAT social cohesion? We're fighting over the ruins of each other's shit. Social cohesion is SOL any way you slice it. Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 10:40 AM (TULs6)

So I think you're saying that's happening now, today, as we speak. Yet I am unaware of the news reports of any massive riots this week, last week, or the week before.

My real point to the original post was that "complete breakdown of social cohesion" isn't something that's a small detail.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 10:46 AM (sbV1u)

221 Nope. A conservative is a liberal WITH A BRAIN who has been mugged. Otherwise they just blame those nasty conservatives and keep on asking for a handout to get them by.
Posted by: tcn at December 10, 2012 10:44 AM (VLG62)

Don't disagree. I just think there are enough that will allow the non socialists to become the majority again.

Posted by: polynikes at December 10, 2012 10:46 AM (m2CN7)

222 If we can't stop them, we don't have to continue to enable them either.


To me, that's the core principle of Let It Burn. It (meaning the United States government fiscal situation) is on fire. Basically all attempts by conservatives to point out that the fire is about to consume us all have not only been ignored but have been claimed to be lies. The majority of this country wants to continue down this path and there is nothing I can do to stop that.

Yes, I will be caught up in the conflagration. I would like those who oppose LIB to explain to me what practical and effective solution there is to stop what is coming. Honestly, if there is one, please, by all means, set it out. From my perspective, the only way that the necessary cuts will occur is for the entire system to collapse.


In many ways, this is like dealing with an alcoholic or a drug addict. If the junkie refuses to clean up on his/her own, the only realistic response is to let that person hit utter bottom. That is the only consequence that will get the junkie's attention. Yes, there is a realistic chance that will be fatal. Well, it'll be just as fatal if attempts to prop up said person are done, it will simply take longer and be even worse when the inevitable occurs.


Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Shipping Sheldon/Penny right to the end. at December 10, 2012 10:47 AM (VtjlW)

223 I like to think it is less about choosing inaction, and more about the fact that any action (even no action) is ineffective. I think there are a lot of people that don't want to go down without a fight. They have a place here, because in the end it is going to burn no matter what we do. We'll all be LIB in the end, regardless of how we got there.

Posted by: Mob at December 10, 2012 10:47 AM (jVJ3N)

224 That's why people are saying move to Nebraska or something. Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 10:43 AM (TULs6)

Meh. Wyoming.

Longer sight lines, clearer fields of fire.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 10:47 AM (sbV1u)

225 Okay J. J., good luck with the script

Posted by: chemjeff at December 10, 2012 10:47 AM (m/eXi)

226 Tough Love, baby. Lock 'em out in the cold and dark.

Posted by: tcn at December 10, 2012 10:47 AM (VLG62)

227
You dream, General...

Posted by: cajun carrot at December 10, 2012 10:46 AM (UZQM

By 'in this case,' I meant the scenario I described in the line before, not whatever actually comes to pass.

Posted by: zsasz at December 10, 2012 10:48 AM (RDP+N)

228 Meh. Wyoming.

Longer sight lines, clearer fields of fire.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 10:47 AM (sbV1u)

Meh. Alaska. Nobody's gonna shoot that far.

Posted by: tcn at December 10, 2012 10:48 AM (VLG62)

229 Soylent Green is people.

That's why it tastes so good!

Posted by: Blanco Basura at December 10, 2012 10:48 AM (4WhSY)

230 I posted this yesterday.

Some analysis


2012 Budget: 3.9 Trillion

2012 Taxes: 2.5 Trillion

2012 deficit: 1.4 Trillion

Taxes need to rise 36% on all brackets to cover deficit.

The top two tax brackets would need to rise 90% the other brackets could be left unchanged.

The 33% would become 62% and the 35% would become the 67% tax brackets.

A
person making $178,650 would see their tax burden rise from $58,954 to


$110,763 his after tax income would fall from $117,696 to $67,887 and


that is before the states get through with him.


A person making
$388,350 would see their tax burden rise from $135,992 to $260,328 his
after tax income would fall from $252,358 to $128,022 and that is before
the states get through with him.

You would still not have a surplus. You would just break even.

------------------------------

Federal Debt: 16 Trillion

If taxes are raised 45% on all brackets to 4.6 Trillion you would have a surplus of 700 billion

The top two tax brackets would need to rise 125% the other brackets could be left unchanged.

The 33% would become 74% and the 35% would become the 79% tax brackets.

A
person making $178,650 would see their tax burden rise from $58,954 to


$132,201his after tax income would fall from $117,696 to $46,449 and


that is before the states get through with him.

A person making
$388,350 would see their tax burden rise from $135,992 to $306,954 his
after tax income would fall from $252,358 to $81,396 and that is before
the states get through with him.


It would take 23 years to pay off the debt.

You would have also enslaved and destroyed the productive class.

This is not really hard to explain or make anyone understand.

Our leaders are not leaders they merely look for political advantage.

Remember
the fiscal cliff was Boehners grand bargain because he did not want to
fight the debt ceiling battle. He mad the calculus that Obama would lose
the election, he calculated wrong. Now he does not want to fight or

argue principles over the fiscal cliff, he is going to make another

grand bargain whereby he loses now to win later.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS ONE BEFORE!
WE NEVER WIN LATER!

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 10, 2012 10:49 AM (RrD4h)

231 “Anna Wintour’s friends have expressed an interest in making sure that
she is nominated to become an ambassador to a major Western European
nation,” the insider said, according to The Daily Mail. “I have had this
confirmed from a friend in the political office at the White House. I
am also told there is only a slight chance Wintour will end up in
London.”



“Paris is her number one choice. I gather Ms Wintour finds the Paris house and grounds particularly spectacular,”

--------

THAT pisses me off......


Posted by: fixerupper at December 10, 2012 10:49 AM (nELVU)

232 What will this achieve? The USA is addicted to heroin.
Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 10:35 AM (9gcmf)

It's a response to Kristol's argument that the negotiations are a no-win for the Republicans. They're not. Stand on the principle of cutting taxes and repeat yourself.
The Fiscal Cliff was Obama's idea. Increasing taxes in 2013 was the Democrats' idea. Every time a talk show asks about the fiscal cliff, tax increases, budget deficits, and overspending, repeat that it is a problem of the Democrats' making and the Republicans are trying to solve it.
I don't want to let it burn. And we don't need to let it burn to reform the government.

Holy shit kids, we lost the last election by 2%. That's not a demographic shift, that's a margin of error. More than 2%people voted for Obama because he was black. More than 2% voted for Obama because Romney is a mormon. That doesn't mean we need to cater to the racist bigots in the DNC, it means we need to point out that the Democrats are the ones fucking us over. Every day.

Posted by: egd at December 10, 2012 10:49 AM (XVGEg)

233
You dont really want or expect anything to burn.

Saying let it burn is merely a salve on your boo-boos.

The truth is that all of you expect some miraculous turnaround or some magical conservative figure to emerge and save the day.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 10, 2012 10:50 AM (nEkih)

234 Meh. Alaska. Nobody's gonna shoot that far. Posted by: tcn at December 10, 2012 10:48 AM (VLG62)

Excellent point. I shall add it to my list.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 10:50 AM (sbV1u)

235 WASHINGTON (AP) -- A vigorous effort to house the homeless has been countered somewhat by a sluggish economy.

The federal government
and local communities have greatly increased the number of beds
available to the homeless over the last four years, either through emergency shelters
or through government-subsidized apartments and houses. But the
struggling economy contributed to the number of homeless people in the
United States remaining stable between January 2011 and January 2012.
Mark Johnston, an acting assistant secretary at Housing and Urban Development, said the stable homeless rate during tough economic times was viewed as encouraging news.

Johnston said the federal
government is spending about $1.9 billion to house the homeless. The
amount has steadily increased over the years, with a particular boost
coming from the 2009 economic stimulus package.





$1.9 billion and it doesn't make a dent. And what struggling economy? Last week the MFM was bleating that unemployment went down again all thanks to Barry's 5 year plan

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 10, 2012 10:51 AM (1Jaio)

236 Went to the gun show on Saturday in Houston. If the left wants to restrict the 2nd amendment they better hurry up. Man there were a lot of killing tools in that building.

Posted by: polynikes at December 10, 2012 10:51 AM (m2CN7)

237 So, here is my issue with LIB, I don't want to get scorched by the flames, and we will all feel that heat, trust me. I propose letting it burn, and watching it, from a distance.
The Free State Project had it half right, we need to band togother in one spot. But I think they were wrong to do it here. I think we need to look outide of the states. We have a few places in mind, depending onhow many people we have and how much money we get.
Our ansestors left their homes, their countries and in many cases their families to search for freedom and the chance at a new life. True they fought for this land, as their ansestors had fought for the Old World.
We have lost, yes, let it burn, let them have it, and watch as it all falls apart around them, but let us make sure it does not fall down ontop of us, and our children. I intend to be free, or at the least die free, and I don't care to try my strength against the might of the US Army. It isn't up yet, but keep and eye out for the Exodus Project online.

Posted by: Dave in MA at December 10, 2012 10:51 AM (zsPnE)

238 The truth is that all of you expect some miraculous turnaround or some magical conservative figure to emerge and save the day.

Wish for? Yes. Expect, no.

Posted by: dick cheese at December 10, 2012 10:51 AM (QupBk)

239 I'd be real careful of that term "populist." Make sure you know exactly what it means. William Jennings Bryan was a populist. He was from Nebraska, too.

I think Nebraska is a beautiful place. Sidney is about my favorite city in the whole country. But I don't think moving there will solve any of my problems.

e-man, keep polishing that iron. You're a bold, bold, warrior there. Woof-a-reenz!

Posted by: comatus at December 10, 2012 10:51 AM (qaVK+)

240
I love the "I started the meme" bullshit.


That's just Drew.

I think he invented the internet. He's a pretty big deal.

Posted by: eleven at December 10, 2012 10:52 AM (KXm42)

241 The truth is that all of you expect some miraculous turnaround or some magical conservative figure to emerge and save the day.

I expect to die of something treatable at the ripe old age of 43 because I'm too old and white to "waste" medical care on.

If I don't freeze to death in the dark first.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 10, 2012 10:52 AM (/kI1Q)

242 Longer sight lines, clearer fields of fire.

But Nebraska is flat and open. The cities are arranged in nice little grids too.

Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 10:52 AM (GQ8sn)

243 That doesn't mean we need to cater to the racist bigots in the DNC, it means we need to point out that the Democrats are the ones fucking us over. Every day.
Posted by: egd at December 10, 2012 10:49 AM (XVGEg)

Good idea. But do you see anyone carrying this message forward?

Posted by: RWC at December 10, 2012 10:53 AM (fWAjv)

244 I love the "I started the meme" bullshit.

That's just Drew.

I think he invented the internet. He's a pretty big deal.


Wasn't it Andy the morning after the election? He had that great post too.

Actually, now that I think of it, he said "Burn It Down".

Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 10:53 AM (GQ8sn)

245 let me burn fer fucks sake

it's legal in Colorado

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 10:53 AM (FpBe1)

246
Yet I am unaware of the news reports of any massive riots this week, last week, or the week before.

OK dude. Shit's getting better by the moment. Crisis averted. Totally not getting worse at all, totally hasn't been trending worse for decades with no relief in sight. Everything is peachy. Let's watch some TV.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 10:54 AM (TULs6)

247
If I don't freeze to death in the dark first.


Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 10, 2012 10:52 AM (/kI1Q)

-----
I was told the camps would have fuel drums for fires.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 10, 2012 10:54 AM (nELVU)

248 "It's a response to Kristol's argument that the negotiations are a no-win
for the Republicans. They're not. Stand on the principle of cutting
taxes and repeat yourself."

Agree. I just finished re-reading (for the nth time) Manchester's 2nd Volume of his Churchill biography, "Alone". Good lessons there for the LIB crowd. No retreat, no surrender on principles that have stood the test of time.

Posted by: mrp at December 10, 2012 10:54 AM (HjPtV)

249

Query:

Is conservatism dead?

Posted by: soothsayer at December 10, 2012 10:54 AM (xTbtA)

250 What I like best about the coming fiscal cliff is that it expands the tax rolls automatically. Neither party will vote to expand the rolls. This does it automatically. We should use this opportuntity to do so. We can then reargue tax-cutting as a policy vehicle. But tax-cutting no longer works when half the country has no tax to cut (or little tax to cut).

Make more people have skin in the game. It isn't the whole solution, but it is a good first start.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 10:54 AM (gmeXX)

251 $1.9 billion and it doesn't make a dent.

It's not supposed to. It's supposed to provide sinecures for "advocates" and bureaucrats, and funnel money to the connected (rented office spaces, advertising, etc).

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 10, 2012 10:55 AM (/kI1Q)

252
May the GOP RIP. Tea Party '14. The cliff is a myth. Just like '08 with TARP. As some point you simply have to call their bluff. Never negotiate with crazy people and the current administration iscrazy.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at December 10, 2012 10:55 AM (n8LUb)

253 Change is hard, nobody likes it, it is the fear of the unknown. Much like our forefathers, they accepted that change and the unknown. we must do the same, or have we become a bunch of little mama's boys. LIB and pick up the pieces or go down with the ship. The future is going to suck, no matter if we try to save it and get blamed or if we LIB. With LIB we have an option of picking up the pieces.

Posted by: Just a drifter bustin his ass at December 10, 2012 10:55 AM (a673H)

254 response to Query:

no. Classic Liberalism is dead.

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 10:56 AM (FpBe1)

255 Do you see the Greeks pausing at the precipice to reexamine their commitment to socialism?

Not enough corpses piles up yet.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 10, 2012 10:56 AM (mxRmv)

256
The burning may take a couple generations, 20-60 years as a guess range. Rebuilding will take equally long or longer.With that perspective, would it not be best tohave a very controlled burn. And a nice controlled rebuild.

The chinese are known for having a very long term outlook. They strategize 100 years plus in advance. Maybe we should too.

Rather than LIB, maybe we should let portions burn uncontrolled, quell other fires, and add fuel to yet others.

Logically, if we can control what is burned and when, we should.

We need to pick and choose our battles, weigh options as they present themselves and actively manage the fire. I see no down side to that.

The GOP does have certain powers, limited as they are. Use them to their fullest and wisest potential.

Posted by: sophistahick at December 10, 2012 10:56 AM (UhXzR)

257 But Nebraska is flat and open. The cities are arranged in nice little grids too. Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 10:52 AM (GQ8sn)

Yeah, but I also like my women grass-fed, not corn-fed.

You ever been with a Cornhusker girl? Especially one that's been a little deprived for a while?

It's sorta like being thrown into a wood-chipper.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 10:56 AM (sbV1u)

258 249: As long as I live, it is not dead. A little revolution now and then is a good thing.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at December 10, 2012 10:57 AM (n8LUb)

259 Let It Burn is, at the ultimate, Cloward-Piven from a conservative perspective. They want to crash the system to make it more socialist—

No they don’t. This is outdated fantasy. What the hell indicates that they have to “crash the system” to get what they want – what they’ve been successfully moving America toward for 50 years?

They implement socialism piecemeal, a little bit each election, with the total price tag never revealed. Who the hell would want to crash that?

As Mark Steyn said, ‘voters want a European government without having to address the price tag.’ How about we move beyond this silly ‘burn’ shit and work on framing the issue to our benefit? Democrats haven’t had to advocate an across the board tax hike since 1993, yet they’ve never had to scale back their promises. What kind of dumb ass movement let that happen? Oh, right, the conservative movement. Let’s correct some of the obvious flaws in our strategy before we give up.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 10:57 AM (9KqcB)

260 In the long term, would the USA be better off if, post-collapse, the red states and blue states came back as two or three separate countries?

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at December 10, 2012 10:57 AM (QXlbZ)

261 The Federal Government is what is doomed, not the nation. Unless we get overrun by an external power during our weakness, the nation will continue.

Posted by: dick cheese at December 10, 2012 10:59 AM (QupBk)

262
Meh. Wyoming.

Longer sight lines, clearer fields of fire.


Who you gonna be fighting? I'm a northwoods guy... I'd prefer lots of trees, soI can hide in forest brush and do the whole Rambo thing with pugee traps.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 10:59 AM (TULs6)

263 OK dude. Shit's getting better by the moment. Crisis averted. Totally not getting worse at all, totally hasn't been trending worse for decades with no relief in sight. Everything is peachy. Let's watch some TV. Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 10:54 AM (TULs6)

Didn't say that.

Just didn't think there was a reason to go all eleventy!!1!1 just at this exact moment in time. This is a time to prepare.

I know exactly what complete social breakdown looks like up close. I got to spend multiple tours in Africa in the mid-1990s.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 10:59 AM (sbV1u)

264 240


I love the "I started the meme" bullshit.

That's just Drew.

I think he invented the internet. He's a pretty big deal.


Posted by: eleven at December 10, 2012 10:52 AM (KXm42)

Fuck me!(outside, cutting my cable connection)

Posted by: Jack Wagon at December 10, 2012 10:59 AM (KUPae)

265 What I like best about the coming fiscal cliff is that it expands the tax rolls automatically.

Yup. A society can't survive when one half pays and the other half receives. Time to get all those non-payers back on the rolls.

Posted by: zsasz at December 10, 2012 10:59 AM (RDP+N)

266 You ever been with a Cornhusker girl? Especially one that's been a little deprived for a while?

It's sorta like being thrown into a wood-chipper.


No, but I've seen some corn-fed booty. Nice and they've got something to hold onto.

Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 10:59 AM (GQ8sn)

267
Oh, right, the conservative movement. Let’s correct some of the obvious flaws in our strategy before we give up.

OK. Obvious flaw: we tried to elect Republicans.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:00 AM (TULs6)

268 The national anthem should be changed to "Rehab" by Amy Winehouse. Discuss.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 10, 2012 11:00 AM (GBXon)

269 Who you gonna be fighting? I'm a northwoods guy... I'd prefer lots of trees, soI can hide in forest brush and do the whole Rambo thing with pugee traps. Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 10:59 AM (TULs6)

I used to be a tanker, so I am a big fan of stand-off. I like to see things explode through optics long before I can see them with the naked eye.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 11:00 AM (sbV1u)

270 We need to pick and choose our battles, weigh options as they present themselves and actively manage the fire. I see no down side to that.


While I agree in principle, please name one hill the GOP has chosen to die on. One single one in the last, say, 25 years.


Let's take Social Security. I have been told for the last 25 years or so that SS is unsustainable and will become insolvent when the Boomers retire and something must be done and the longer we wait, the worse it will be. I have also been told over and over and over again by the GOP that now is not the time to fight that fight. Well, guess what? The Boomers are retiring, as a practical matter SS is insolvent now, not in 2020 or whatever the current lie is, and the GOP is still acting as if now is not the time to press entitlement reform.


I do not believe the GOP will ever, ever, ever choose to fight an actual battle over entitlement reform. Sorry, I don't. There are too many decades of too many broken promises for me to believe otherwise.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Shipping Sheldon/Penny right to the end. at December 10, 2012 11:00 AM (VtjlW)

271 With LIB we have an option of picking up the pieces.

After the collapse of the US Federal government, the debt repudiations, etc, we'll be starting over with all the natural resources we got now and whatever populations survives won't be delusional.

In in comparative worldwide terms, that's a pretty strong hand. A lot of new countries started with much less.

Back the new currency with natural resources, and we won't even be credit strapped after the debt repudiation.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 10, 2012 11:00 AM (mxRmv)

272 let it burn

but save the corn fed booty

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 11:00 AM (FpBe1)

273 chemjeft at 84 - The big problem I see with LIB is that the country won't actually burn.
The implicit assumption is that the whole thing will collapse. I don't
think that is likely. What is more likely IMO is that we will just limp
along economically for the foreseeable future. We'll become like the
society in Brave New World - citizens are happy and dumb, and
overweening nanny government "takes care" of everyone. The End. No
burning required.

This.

I've lived in Third World countries and this is what develops there. There's no big, exciting "burn" with a wonderful new order afterwards. There's just an on-going, grinding, nasty, brutish existence lead partly behind high, cinder block walls topped with broken glass, frequent brown-outs, bribing corrupt government officials for routine services which only get worse, pot-holed roads, litter-strewn streets, constant fear of crime, and no way out. Life goes on, people have babies, and the cycle repeats.

That may come here to America whether conservatives let it burn or try to stop it. So the only question left is course of action what will leave you with a clear conscience.


Posted by: Salt Lick at December 10, 2012 11:01 AM (SQOBt)

274 No, but I've seen some corn-fed booty. Nice and they've got something to hold onto. Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 10:59 AM (GQ8sn)

Yeaaahhh.

No.

I like banging fit chicks.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 11:01 AM (sbV1u)

275 e-man, keep polishing that iron. You're a bold, bold, warrior there. Woof-a-reenz!
Posted by: comatus at December 10, 2012 10:51 AM (qaVK+)


Moving to a red State is the equivalent of fictional armed resistance to Soviet invaders?

You are truly twisted by fear.



Posted by: eman at December 10, 2012 11:01 AM (9gcmf)

276
Just didn't think there was a reason to go all eleventy!!1!1 just at this exact moment in time. This is a time to prepare.

You don't think we should be eleventy!!1!1 about preparation?

I'd rather be eleventy about prep than eleventy when it happens.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:02 AM (TULs6)

277
If you look at the long term (50-100 year) alternatives:

1. Continue the current course and we will be an Islamic friendly republic with significant pockets of Sharia law in some states.
2. Continue the current course and learn to speak Chinese as they will control the majority of our debt and commerce.
3. LIB and start over faster.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at December 10, 2012 11:02 AM (n8LUb)

278 let it burn

but save the fit chicks

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 11:02 AM (FpBe1)

279 The financial socialist aspects of the Left that the country has voted for is troubling to me and enough for LIB but what bothers me more is the cultural secularleft that the electorate seems to be moving to that bothers me even more.

Gays in the military, gay marriage, legalization of mary jane, ridiculous separation of church and state mandates, feminization of the military, metro sexualization of man, thug life worship, etc.

Posted by: polynikes at December 10, 2012 11:02 AM (m2CN7)

280 84
The big problem I see with LIB is that the country won't actually burn.
The implicit assumption is that the whole thing will collapse. I don't
think that is likely. What is more likely IMO is that we will just limp
along economically for the foreseeable future. We'll become like the
society in Brave New World - citizens are happy and dumb, and
overweening nanny government "takes care" of everyone. The End. No
burning required.


Posted by: chemjeff at December 10, 2012 10:20 AM (m/eXi)

Chemjeff speaks truly. With clever people at the helm we can stumble along economically for decades just by cutting non-welfare spending to the bone and taxing like a mofo. We will be a poorer, uglier place when it's all over but it won't be a wasteland, just a place that you and I wouldn't want to call America.

Posted by: joncelli at December 10, 2012 11:03 AM (RD7QR)

281 For me, let it burn is like seeing a who is john gault sticker.

Its an idea within an idea.

The democrats have had a let it burn mentality for decades while we conservatives have acted like the party of adults and eat your veggies. Now its time to let them feel the pressure of keeping something together which is much harder than tearing something down. The tearing down part is natural to the dems, building and holding...is a foreign concept.

Also, I would say that let it burn means that things will not exist long as currently constructed. A liberal majority with an occasional blip of conservatism is doomed to fail almost as fast as one without conservatives working in government. Almost anything on the other side of a collapse is better than life in a liberal tyranny. Perhaps there is a peaceful balkanization.


Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 10, 2012 11:03 AM (iuY0Y)

282 Wasn't it Andy the morning after the election? He had that great post too.

Actually, now that I think of it, he said "Burn It Down".


Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 10:53 AM (GQ8sn)

I found it in the comments the night of the election....was the first mention of it as far as I can tell........



I've long suspected it was just time to let it burn
and start over. Thinking there's no choice, now. Preserve what you
can, as the nucleus for the next try...in a generation, or a century, or
a millenium.



I hoped for a better paying job someday, but there's honestly no point now.



I'll still hang here to commiserate, maybe even exchange ideas on
how to deal with what's coming, but politics is, for the Duration, a
loser's game.



Burn down the media. They shaped this, even if the 'people' were
who pulled the trigger. Make them pay as dear a price as possible for
this.



Fuck it.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at November 06, 2012 11:51 PM (x8wJs)

Posted by: Tami at December 10, 2012 11:03 AM (X6akg)

283 Spot on Drew. Reminds me of that last Senate election in Alaska. Murkowski vs Joe Miller. Surely the rugged, self sufficient Alaskans would vote for someone espousing thise values (Joe Miller)? Another myth debunked. People want free stuff. Period.

Posted by: bruce clark at December 10, 2012 11:03 AM (xFg3I)

284 Yeaaahhh.

No.

I like banging fit chicks.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 11:01 AM (sbV1u)


Nothing wrong with a little cushion. And I don't want to fuck some chick that can bench press me. Ew. Woman should be soft and lush, with curves.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 10, 2012 11:03 AM (da5Wo)

285 The fiscal cliff is just another in a long line of events in which we are told that failing to act will result in doom (not just for the country, but also the Republican party's electoral success). So conservatives are always expected to simply go along for the good of country and party. No more. The actions taken by the party leaders always, always make things worse for the country and worse for the party.

Fool us once, shame on you, fool us twice, shame on us. Fool us three, four, five, and six times, we are just being idiots.

Let's try to learn something from the liberals. The risk of an electoral set back may lead to future gains down the line. But we never want to take that risk. Now is the moment. Hard to see how we could lose much more. Let's take a real chance hear. Offering a real alternative, and see where it leads us.

Let it burn.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 11:03 AM (gmeXX)

286

..... all I know is this country went shit in bucket after Johnny Carson left the Tonight Show.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 10, 2012 11:04 AM (nELVU)

287
That may come here to America whether conservatives let it burn or try to stop it.

And how do you stop it, by sustaining it? By paying your taxes and working extra extra hard to keep the client system wellfed?

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:05 AM (TULs6)

288 I propose a new party, the LIB party. As it would pay for itself instantly when i'm out and about and the topic of politics comes up i'll gleefully answer "I'm a LIB." Then after some circle jerk about how great progressive policies are i'll simply respond "I absolutely agree with everything stated, which is why it's all going to burn to the fucking ground!"

The party mascot? Obviously the Phoenix.

Posted by: Cashin at December 10, 2012 11:05 AM (TYEu4)

289 California burns every year. Hasn't stopped 'em.
Posted by: Wodeshed, President-Dresden Chapter at December 10, 2012 10:22 AM (u14nm)Um, no it hasn't. And that's the problem. Believe me, in the land of government workers and welfare recipients theDem votershave felt no pain. But they will in 2013 thanks to Obamacare and Jerry Brown's retroactive tax increases.

Posted by: joanne tea partier with a match at December 10, 2012 11:05 AM (VNFBf)

290 Posted by: Salt Lick at December 10, 2012 11:01 AM (SQOBt)

You can't compare America to any other country , now or in the past . We are unique. What we will or can do is unknown but nothing is set in stone with precedence.

Posted by: polynikes at December 10, 2012 11:05 AM (m2CN7)

291
You dont really want or expect anything to burn.

Saying let it burn is merely a salve on your boo-boos.

The truth is that all of you expect some miraculous turnaround or some magical conservative figure to emerge and save the day.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 10, 2012 10:50 AM (nEkih)



Speaking personally, that is exactly the opposite of what I expect, sir. There is no magical conservative figure, there is no unforeseen turnaround waiting in the wings.



The Leftists did their work well, and now this is the least unfavorable of many unfavorable options. In the days following the election, we had many posters here speak of idealizing and idolizing our candidates as does the Left, building a cult of personality to counter theirs - that is not conservativism, it is the antithesis.



Government is a necessary evil, and should never be idealized as anything more than exactly what it is - a necessary evil. The conservative principles of equality among all people, and the recognition of reality for what it is fly straight in the face of the cult of personality idea, and has nothing to do with the LiB crowd.



Really, this is just realism. People speak of that 2% margin, but that 2% is the gulf between saving what's left of the nation and, well, letting it burn.



Ain't a damn thing about it that's waiting, misty-eyed, for some Big Damn Heroes to come waltzing in and make everything shiny again. That won't happen - unless, of course, we segue from End of the United States straight into the Apocalypse, in which case, that WILL happen.



In the interim, though - no, we're saying Let it Burn because it cannot be avoided. No sense kicking the can down the road.

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at December 10, 2012 11:05 AM (Lvgz1)

292 I'd rather be eleventy about prep than eleventy when it happens. Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:02 AM (TULs6)

I leave you, my good friend, with a little Rudyard Kipling...

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise....

Look, I am not saying things don't look bad. Shit, they ARE bad. But I think the U.S. is unique on this one point - it is self-correcting. Specifically because it is self-correcting things are never exactly as bad as they seem, or exactly as good as they seem.

That's really all I am saying.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 11:06 AM (sbV1u)

293 279

Never let a crisis go to waste. Tank the economy, and while the proles are worried about that they don't have time to spend fighting about the social issues.

Posted by: zsasz at December 10, 2012 11:06 AM (RDP+N)

294 Yeaaahhh.

No.

I like banging fit chicks.




They look fit to me.

http://tinyurl.com/d7rgrle

Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 11:07 AM (GQ8sn)

295 Just a question for thought. What would happen if we just defaulted on the Chinese? Hypothetically.

Posted by: eleven at December 10, 2012 11:07 AM (KXm42)

296 But I think the U.S. is unique on this one point - it is self-correcting.

Proof, please.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 10, 2012 11:07 AM (GBXon)

297 Nothing wrong with a little cushion. And I don't want to fuck some chick that can bench press me. Ew. Woman should be soft and lush, with curves. Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 10, 2012 11:03 AM (da5Wo)

Concur. But I said "fit chicks" not "Arnold Schwarzenegger in drag."

I have exactly what I want now, and I am lucky to have it.

As are you.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 11:08 AM (sbV1u)

298 Just a question for thought. What would happen if we just defaulted on the Chinese? Hypothetically.

Red Dawn before the CGI re-editing.

Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 11:09 AM (GQ8sn)

299 So what happens when we get attacked again? I mean on a scale as large if not larger than 9/11. We will have no military to even respond. Will the public just shrug their shoulders or will they be pissed at the government for allowing it to happen?

Posted by: jewells45 at December 10, 2012 11:09 AM (l/N7H)

300 We were "self correcting" when we had a Constitution.

It's "alive" now, so maybe, not so much.

Posted by: Jack Wagon at December 10, 2012 11:11 AM (KUPae)

301 Proof, please. Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 10, 2012 11:07 AM (GBXon)

Sorry, I don't have time to cover the uniqueness of the 300+ years of the American experiment (beginning in 1620 before there was a United States) and the theme of American exceptionalism. However, you might consult Paul Johnson's A History of the American People. It is very good, and very good specifically on this theme.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 11:11 AM (sbV1u)

302 My crotch burns.

Posted by: Madonna at December 10, 2012 11:11 AM (PJJlw)

303
The Chinese don't even holda plurality of ourdebt, and they're selling off what they have. That rhetoric is old.

The federal government buys federal government debt, and lends money it doesn't have to itself.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:11 AM (TULs6)

304 The other thing to really like about the fiscal cliff is that unemployment compensation stops (at least the pro-longed comp). No party will vote to kill it. This kills it automatically. Since the GOP will not actively start taking away any goodies, let's use some mechanism to stop the flowing of the goodies.

The war won't be won at the federal level - not now. It must be one at the state level. But we cannot let the federal government interfere. We won't reform the federal government, but we do not have to be complicit in the giveaways. Things will collapse on their own unless you keep rigging them to stand.

Let's get out of the way at the federal government, take the battles to the states and fight there.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 11:11 AM (gmeXX)

305
Let It Burn isn’t an option, it’s an eventuality.

Correct. And in my opinion (which you all should agree with) it is better to have the collapse and rebuilding sooner than later. If it happens sooner, there is a chance, a slight chance, we can restore the Republic.

The longer the wait, the more I fear that what comes in post collapse will be out and out tyranny and not a republic or even a democracy.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie ® at December 10, 2012 11:12 AM (1hM1d)

306 If we default on the Chinese, no one would even pretend to buy our bonds anymore, except for the Fed (which means us). The international confidence in the dollar is destroyed forever, we lose our status as the world's reserve currency, and we in essence become Argentina, looking at 20% - 30% inflation per year for the next 50 years, with no way out no matter how well we manage our expenses.

We would have an inflationary depression which would be an order of magnitude worse than the Great Depression of the 30's, and it would last at least one full generation, if not two.

of course we may get that anyway, so on the other hand we might as well just default now and get on with it.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 10, 2012 11:12 AM (ekln7)

307 Yes, I will be caught up in the conflagration. I would like those who oppose LIB to explain to me what practical and effective solution there is to stop what is coming. Honestly, if there is one, please, by all means, set it out. From my perspective, the only way that the necessary cuts will occur is for the entire system to collapse.

The hell with me, my kids will be caught up in this conflagration. For most of their lives. Fuck that.

Again, how does this play out? No one has yet to describe the scenario in which in a tattered nation turns to the Let It Burn chanters and belatedly begs them to take office and cut spending.

Cuts will happen when we convince a majority of voters that cuts need to happen. Will will only convince them when they believe that the alternative is that THEIR TAXES WILL GO UP. They don't believe that now. Because, oddly, we haven't made that argument. How about we try logic before giving up?

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 11:12 AM (9KqcB)

308 just a question for thought. What would happen if we just defaulted on the Chinese? Hypothetically.

Nothing*. Not from the Chicoms. We wouldn't be able to sell our debt for about a year then, after the burn, we would still look like a good bet because we have so much less debt.

*Assuming we still have a Navy. Which means we better hurry up and default.

Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 10, 2012 11:12 AM (iuY0Y)

309 Drew -

Very well said.

Posted by: A One-Eyed Cat Peepin' in the Seafood Store at December 10, 2012 11:13 AM (eMtQ2)

310 Posted by: Sean Bannion

You proved that, in previous eras with specific circumstances, it was. You have provided no proof that under the current conditions this still holds. Ceteris paribus and all. I need current indications that this is possible under current conditions.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 10, 2012 11:14 AM (GBXon)

311 Four more years of prosperity! Yeah!

Posted by: Fritz at December 10, 2012 11:14 AM (/ZZCn)

312 No representation...without taxation.

Posted by: John Stark Dark at December 10, 2012 11:14 AM (Dk/AO)

313 And, like forest fires, the longer you delay it, the worse it is.

Posted by: gm at December 10, 2012 11:15 AM (K0tm3)

314 @eman #275 - Nobody thinks this is Red Dawn. We're just tired of dealing withpeople like you. Whether LIB takes the form of swift societal collapse or a slow fade into obscurity, I'd ratherlive in a relatively resource rich, sparesly populated area surrounded by people who share my values. You can have your "diversity." A wider range of parasites just kills the host more quickly.

Posted by: Foul Harold at December 10, 2012 11:15 AM (m/WmK)

315 I like my version of this:

Fuck 'em

Posted by: Jcelephant at December 10, 2012 11:15 AM (TYm2g)

316 You know, the thought occurred to me...

We should have had 'preventive burns' as part of our strategy all along. Fund a program with a permanent cut-off date, nothing is forever. No automatic renewal into budgets. If you want that program, you have to vote for it again, have to justify it again. Show your data and numbers, the program's performance.

Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 11:17 AM (GQ8sn)

317 While I agree in principle, please name one hill the GOP has chosen to die on. One single one in the last, say, 25 years.

No tax increase on the upper-income? We could have taken Obama's main election theme off the table by letting their rates go up. We stuck to the principle and died.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 11:17 AM (9KqcB)

318 You proved that, in previous eras with specific circumstances, it was. You have provided no proof that under the current conditions this still holds. Ceteris paribus and all. I need current indications that this is possible under current conditions. Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 10, 2012 11:14 AM (GBXon)

I am afraid that you'll only see it as a tautology. "America is unique and always has been, therefore it's response to dire circumstances will be unique and decline is not assured."

See? Tautology.

But I still think there are enough (for lack of a better term) "real Americans" left to make a difference over time.

Just not today.

You have your gut feeling that it's over. I have mine that it's not. Just a feeling.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 11:18 AM (sbV1u)

319 Grammar Nazi time. Sentence near the end is confusing to read without some pubctuation help.
Let It Burn isn’t an option, it’s an eventuality. The questions are: 1)will we be complicit in it any longer, and 2)do we want to delay it?

Posted by: Connertown at December 10, 2012 11:19 AM (+q3dR)

320 Drew,

So what if a significant portion of Republicans, and by that I mean politically active Republicans like the people that read blogs every day, simply switched their affiliation to the Libertarian party? I did that back in 2007, but maybe it's time for everyone to get on board.

Don't get me wrong, the Libertarian party is currently run largely by wankers, but it seems to me that that can be changed much easier than we can change who is running the GOP.

Posted by: Jason at December 10, 2012 11:19 AM (6VB4r)

321 Let It Burn isn't about actually watching it burn. It is taking this moment to no longer paper over our problems. Letting an alleged crisis actually come to pass. The country won't collapse. Things won't really change. But the country that simply thinks most things are free will be dealt with a new reality. Some things will stop and the people will be expected to pay a little more for their free stuff. If my taxes are going to be raised, I prefer everyone's be raised.

That is why I support LIB in 2012.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 11:20 AM (gmeXX)

322
Again, how does this play out? No one has yet to describe the scenario in which in a tattered nation turns to the Let It Burn chanters and belatedly begs them to take office and cut spending.


No new guy taking office. The federal government implodes, we have no federal government. Then the states don't just become the important thing, they become everything. We have something on the order of 50 seperate countries, which will probably group into a half dozen to a dozen.

Out of that, some (but not all) of them will get their shit straight and turn into democratic republics. If we all stick together, we all go down together. If we can split up, some of us will have a chance. Hell, look at some of the states now, repeal federal regulations and you're basically 75% there.

The more utterly disfunctional the feds become, the more attractive it is for states to break away. If the dollar isn't worth shit, there's no real incentive, since the dollar is in fact a source of tremendous federal hegemony. But if the dollar collapses and people revert to a commodity standard the feds cannot play games with with-holding highway funds and such shit.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:20 AM (TULs6)

323 "Obama's Hordes will riot, first buring their own neighborhoods (because mobs aren't rational) then they'll come for yours."

We'll be waiting

Posted by: RayJ at December 10, 2012 11:20 AM (pI/IV)

324 So what happens when we get attacked again?

We just were attacked...in our embassies all over the place, on 9/11/12. An American embassy is considered American soil. Nobody seems to care.

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at December 10, 2012 11:21 AM (53riN)

325 "How about we move beyond this silly ‘burn’ shit and work on framing the issue to our benefit? Democrats haven’t had to advocate an across the board tax hike since 1993, yet they’ve never had to scale back their promises. What kind of dumb ass movement let that happen? Oh, right, the conservative movement. Let’s correct some of the obvious flaws in our strategy before we give up.
Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 10:57 AM (9KqcB)"



What movement let this happen? The "movement" by very definition isn't a "movement". It happened because it couldn't fight a real movement that has overtaken the mediums of "issue framing".


Strategy is irrelevant when your opponent controls the timing of battle, the place of battle, your own tactics, the equipment you'll be using, your commanders, and the propaganda machine. A simple change in strategy to achieve short term goals of gargantuan proportions is feel-good nonsense. Doing it against an opponent who has been playing the long game in circles around you for decades is what's actually "silly". It's just something for people to say "Well, I tried. I did my best."


Well, the Democrats are the ones fucking your prom queen right now.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at December 10, 2012 11:21 AM (IgvLC)

326 "Obama's Hordes will riot, first buring their own neighborhoods (because mobs aren't rational) then they'll come for yours."



That would be a mistake.

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at December 10, 2012 11:21 AM (Lvgz1)

327 Mike Jonze @ 5:
"The problem is that what arises from the ashes isn't going to be designed by Madison and Jefferson, it's going to be designed by Pol Pot and Stalin wannabees."

EXACTLY. Which is why I do not like all this loose talk of sitting back and letting total economic and social collapse just happen. Millions of people will die, most of them just dumb schmucks who may have done some things wrong but nothing bad enough to deserve the living hell that would ensue if everything collapses. I have kids. I have elderly parents. I have relatives and friends with severe disabilities. The thought of any of them having to endure something like 1930s Germany keeps me awake nights.

Please, please, everyone -- before you open your mouth to say "Let It Burn," please consider what that REALLY MEANS in human terms.

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 11:22 AM (F0o5k)

328 You can make fun of paulbots and potheads if it makes you feel better. But giving the government control of the money is a huge give-away to statists. That is a shitload of leverage. They've gotten away with all kinds of games because of that.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:22 AM (TULs6)

329 Our side keeps talking about deficits and tax rates
and tax revenues as if these things mattered at all to our domestic
opponents.

But these things do not matter to them.

The
only purpose tax policy serves for them is as a method to punish responsible
Americans.

The leftists will spend to their hearts' content
without any concern whatsoever over the amount of money the government actually
has in its accounts. If the last four years have proven nothing else, they have
at least proven that.

Posted by: Troll Feeder at December 10, 2012 11:22 AM (k4FVc)

330 So what if a significant portion of Republicans, and by that I mean politically active Republicans like the people that read blogs every day, simply switched their affiliation to the Libertarian party? I did that back in 2007, but maybe it's time for everyone to get on board.
----

Well my guess is it would be a big but ultimately powerless party, because the base would never allow the social cons in, and they would go searching for a party somewhere. I suggest a read of Tim Carney's post today, who confirms what should be common knowledge, the most fiscal conservatives are also the most social conservatives (including the Pauls).

Now, if you want conservatives as a whole to abandon the party to find a new vehicle, that could be something to support. Many will say it is a fool's errand, but it is how the Republican party was started in the first place. Should history repeat itself? Maybe.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 11:23 AM (gmeXX)

331 Cuts will happen when we convince a majority of voters that cuts need to happen.


Cuts will happen when the money runs out and/or when hyperinflation due to monetizing the debt occurs. That which cannot go on forever, won't. Math is a stone cold bitch and always, always, always wins.


Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Shipping Sheldon/Penny right to the end. at December 10, 2012 11:24 AM (VtjlW)

332 Addicted to spending. Addicts usually have to hit bottom before making any real changes. Let. It. Burn.

Posted by: Signs at December 10, 2012 11:24 AM (KFkWG)

333 burn it down like China Town

but don't burn the Bacon

Posted by: eggs benedict at December 10, 2012 11:25 AM (FpBe1)

334
Please, please, everyone -- before you open your mouth to say "Let It Burn," please consider what that REALLY MEANS in human terms.

It's going to happen anyway. Better sooner than later, we are not getting stronger as time goes on.

Besides, I think you're materialistic. I'd rather my children be free than be rich. Fuck all do I care in the grand scheme if we lose our ipods. You can be Eloi if you like, I want out.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:25 AM (TULs6)

335 Don't get me wrong, the Libertarian party is currently run largely by wankers, but it seems to me that that can be changed much easier than we can change who is running the GOP.

Jason, I think you are way off on this. First, "who is running the GOP" is the voters. (Hear me out.) All any party cares about is winning. All of the issues dear to our hearts would be GOP platform planks if enough voters supported them. As Milton Friedman said, "It's not about electing the right people, it's by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.

Second, it's not that hard to change the party, if you really want to do it internally. Run for GOP committee. Get a block of folks who are conservative to run. Run for State GOP committee. It's easier that people think, but harder than standing on the sidelines. If America thinks the GOP is too tight-fisted, they'll neve vote libertarian. So bring a libertarianism mindset to the GOP.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 11:25 AM (9KqcB)

336 s Hordes will riot, first buring their own neighborhoods (because mobs aren't rational) then they'll come foryours.
_______________
- - - -
The founding fathers knew this...and they gave us the 2nd ammendment to protect us. Live free or die....

Posted by: John Stark Dark at December 10, 2012 11:25 AM (Dk/AO)

337 1
I think it should be Let It Burn in Designation Only (LIBIDO). Just because.


SMOD is KING, he Rules Unto Infinity, Neel Slave (Smoking Ruin)

Posted by: pep at December 10, 2012 11:25 AM (USJNU)

338 Rodinella Mamma @ 324:

You are dead right. The 9/11/01 attacks were preceded by years of attacking U.S. embassies. Only fools and idiots think nothing big is coming our way. (Unfortunately, the U.S. population has been dumbed down enough by 100 years of Marxist infiltration of our schools and media that most of them probably are certifiable fools and idiots by now. As recent election results confirm.)

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 11:26 AM (F0o5k)

339
Most Americans are apolitical, AKA "low information voters". Especially the ones that only vote every four years. 90% of them couldn't tell you the basic philosophical differences between the two parties.

This doesn't mean, however, that they are stupid.

They know the current political situation is akin to The Wizard of Oz, run by a bunch of doofuses behind the curtain. They also know the jig is up, that the current situation is unsustainable.

They didn't vote for "free stuff" or socialism or any of the promises made by the people who were running for office. They know it's all a pack of lies.

So what did they vote for?

They voted for kicking the can down the road.

Most don't care about their kids or country as much as delaying the inevitable.

It really is that simple. It really does explain everything.

Only two questions remain:

1) When does the road end?

2) What happens then?

Americans have simply decided not to address those questions. And they will fight like hell to avoid them for as long as possible.

That's it in a nutshell.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 10, 2012 11:26 AM (tOkJB)

340 Sorry hard to take a guy who thought Newt was the great white hope seriously.

Substantially I agree with others that point to Greece. You might also want to read After America.

After a calamitous fiscal break down the citizens of most nations don't suddenly become Reaganesque budget hawks with Burkean ideas of the nature of the State vs the individual.

No the worse things become the more people there will be that will need saving. As counterintuitive as it may seem these people will run right to same people that sold them down the river for more of the same, only the faces and names may be different.

See also, History, World.

"Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government."

Posted by: HerrTrigger at December 10, 2012 11:27 AM (ujsIB)

341 I would add one element to the let it burn movement (sounds like your philosophy when you eat lots of jalapenos the night before and wake up on the toilet next morning to 'let it burn')

Kidding aside, I would add a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution. With a surplus rider. Any budget surplus MUST be applied to the debt.

This can be done with a popular movement around the country, politics be damned. Drum up popular support. Don't even mention entitlements, etc., when making the case for balanced budget amendment, just say politicians are spending too much money, D and R; they're all spending too much money.

Posted by: Sphynx at December 10, 2012 11:27 AM (j2McS)

342 I have kids. I have elderly parents. I have relatives and friends with
severe disabilities. The thought of any of them having to endure
something like 1930s Germany keeps me awake nights.


I hate to pile on, but Obamacare/Aktion T4 is the law of the land and there's nothing that can be done about it anymore.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at December 10, 2012 11:27 AM (/kI1Q)

343 The problem with Let It Burn is making sure that we're the ones in charge of rebuilding. Right now as Bill Whittle says there are very few serious people in place to make a difference. And as history has shown us, totalitarians are more likely to emerge from the ashes than men like our Founders.
Given the nature of the media, low info voters, and human nature, I see bad things happening in the LIB scen....wait "LIB"? HOLY SHIT! You FUCKERS!


soscrewedsoscrewedsoscrewedsoscrewedsoscrewedsoscrewed

Posted by: Iblis at December 10, 2012 11:28 AM (U0ndG)

344 I'm grateful for sites like AoS that are pushing the Let It Burn philosophy> I completely agree that in order to have any "fix" of the system at this point, we need a complete meltdown to illustrate what the real problem is.

The key is to make sure you have a chair when the music stops.

Posted by: JimParks at December 10, 2012 11:28 AM (zKTsq)

345 I like my version of this:

Fuck 'em


It has a nice ring to it.

Posted by: eleven at December 10, 2012 11:28 AM (KXm42)

346 Please, please, everyone -- before you open your mouth to say "Let It Burn," please consider what that REALLY MEANS in human terms.

Frankly all it means is that tax rates will go up for everyone.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 11:28 AM (gmeXX)

347 "Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government."

Who said that? I want to understand it in context because it doesn't make any sense to me.

Posted by: dick cheese at December 10, 2012 11:30 AM (QupBk)

348 LET IT BURRRRN!!!

Wait... you're talking about the constitution, right?

Posted by: Token Black Person at December 10, 2012 11:30 AM (dt2qx)

349 Cuts will happen when the money runs out and/or when hyperinflation due to monetizing the debt occurs. That which cannot go on forever, won't. Math is a stone cold bitch and always, always, always wins.

Well, that nicely takes all of the responsiblity off of our shoulders as thinking conservatives."We've lost two presidential elections. We gave it our best shot. No one likes us."

Come on people. Do we apply LiB to defense cuts that the Left wants? Let them cut the hell out of it, wait for the crisis, and then be carried back into power on the shoulders of the people. Things might get a little Red Dawn-y for a generation or two, but we'll have made our point. Dang.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 11:30 AM (9KqcB)

350 Entropy @ 334:

It's not about materialism. It's about tyranny and terror and starvation (which can drive people to cannibalism -- read your history) and mass murder. It's about neighbors killing each other. It's about being driven from the home you've lived in all your life and rounded up in the dark of night and shipped off somewhere. I'm not making this shit up. This is all stuff that has happened over and over and over and fucking OVER again in history. Yes, it CAN happen here. And there are certain evil individuals who actually WANT it to. Let's for heaven's sake not make it any EASIER for them!

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 11:31 AM (F0o5k)

351 Here's another point that just occurred to me: If the system has to soft-reboot, it's better to do it now rather than in a generation because we remember when things were better. Twenty years from now, this state of suck will be the normal, and you will be arguing for a return to a semi-mythical past.

Posted by: dick cheese at December 10, 2012 11:32 AM (QupBk)

352 351
Here's another point that just occurred to me: If the system has to
soft-reboot, it's better to do it now rather than in a generation
because we remember when things were better. Twenty years from now,
this state of suck will be the normal, and you will be arguing for a
return to a semi-mythical past.

Posted by: dick cheese at December 10, 2012 11:32 AM (QupBk)

THIS!!!I have adopted the LIB position for this very reason. Every year there will be less and less of us you understand how it was.

Posted by: Jack Wagon at December 10, 2012 11:33 AM (KUPae)

353
Hear Hear, Drew.

Excellent.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 10, 2012 11:34 AM (n/ubI)

354 You have your gut feeling that it's over. I have mine that it's not.

I have a gut feeling it's over for now. This does not preclude restarting the project at a later date, but does require a lot of ground work to be able to reconstitute it.

I don't think we have the populace and culture to pull it off for now, but I don't believe that has to be forever. I'm just not confident it will be the case in my lifetime.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 10, 2012 11:34 AM (GBXon)

355 Americans have simply decided not to address those questions. And they will fight like hell to avoid them for as long as possible.

Who has even raised those questions? What role did they play in the election we just had? Zip. We let the choice be between: The Guy Who Promises Everything at No Cost to You and The Guy Who Promised Nothing at No Cost to You.

There was no question for voters to avoid, because none were raised.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 11:35 AM (9KqcB)

356 I am asking a serious question here. Why not speak to revolution or secession?
Posted by: kzintius at December 10, 2012 10:40 AM (EN3UW)

Because such talk can be construed as sedition (rarely applied anymore) or as an incitement to violence. Inciting violence on AoS is an invitation to the banhammer or--worst case--a very bad day in the (admittedly unlikely) event the federal government is paying attention to inflammatory posts on a conservative website. We know, for example, that the Obama White House maintains a database filled with names of people unfriendly to Administration policies. It's best not to be on it. Ever been audited by the IRS? Not fun, believe me.

And this Let It Burn stuff? People letting off steam, mainly. Libertarians have been advocating this course of action for a long time now, mainly because they're very frustrated, self-styledKeepers of the Truth who can never figure out why they can't peel away more than a few percentage points from the GOP in national elections. Maybe they'd have better luck at the ballot boxif they steered clear of the Alex Jones conspiracy bullshit or batshit crazy Ron Paul foreign policy ideas, but they can't seem to help themselves. 'Let It Burn' is a self-indulgent zombie apocalypse movie fantasy where its proponents envision themselves as the plucky, resourceful heroes rather than as the shambling undead.

In the short term, we've got a severe recession coming our way, a crash bigger than 2008. Republicans will get blamed for it, one way or the other, and President Obama and his allies will use this economic crisis as a means to furtherconsolidate their power and advance their authoritarian socialist agenda. I fail to see how passively sitting by and giving the President and his people what they want without a (political) fight is a winning strategy.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 11:35 AM (vtiE6)

357 I don't think we have the populace and culture to
pull it off for now, but I don't believe that has to be forever. Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 10, 2012 11:34 AM (GBXon)
Well hell, we're saying the same thing then.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 10, 2012 11:35 AM (sbV1u)

358 CJ,

If it were that simple, it would have happened.

I'm with the LIB crowd because I only see one of two ways out of our current predicament. Either:

1) The American public is, at long last, forced to pay in full for the entitlements they demand, and, balking at such a bitter pill, finally comes to its senses.

or

2) The entitlement state is done away with by massive inflation. Welfare checks will keep arriving in the mail, but they will be worth progressively less and less in real terms.

I see 2 as the more likely scenario at this point, but either way, the mess we are in can no longer be fixed by the conventional politicking you are suggesting.

Posted by: Jason at December 10, 2012 11:36 AM (6VB4r)

359
Let's for heaven's sake not make it any EASIER for them!

You can say we are too weak but when shall we be stronger?

Will we be stronger in 15 years now that Obama is busy federalizing K-12 school curriculum to include outright government propoganda? When the next batch are even more stupified than the current crop? When everyone gets their food and their healthcare from the government and doesn't know where else it comes from? When no one remembers what freedom even looks like, or what the word means? Are we holding out for that moment, because we'll have a better shot then?

You might not like the prospect of facing the tiger, on account there will be casualities. But if you buy more time and buy more time by feeding it one person at a time, all will become casualties in the end and none will survive.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:36 AM (TULs6)

360 Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 11:22 AM (F0o5k)

Okay we will try to fix itonce you and all your relatives are gone so you guys don't have to sacrifice or feel any pain.

Posted by: polynikes at December 10, 2012 11:36 AM (m2CN7)

361 Why didn't you come to me like a man and tell me there was a new thread?

Posted by: dick cheese at December 10, 2012 11:36 AM (QupBk)

362 I think one thing that has to be understood here. Let it burn means that we are throwing a large chunk of the country away forever. I think most are OK with that, but an increasingly socialist/dependent and capitalist hating people in large swaths of the country will turn to communism and war to "get what is theirs." Those trying to re-establish the founding principles will be the antiChrist to them.

Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 10, 2012 11:37 AM (iuY0Y)

363 347 Who said that? I want to understand it in context because it doesn't make any sense to me.

Burke. Mark Steyn makes a great point that a government that is there to wipe your butt for you isn't that good at doing the functions that a government actually should do, such as National Defence, civil order, etc. I always interpreted the "feeble" not as meaning "not enough government" but rather a structure that is not strong enough to stand on its own.

It will all end in more coercion and less liberty in the end.

Posted by: HerrTrigger at December 10, 2012 11:37 AM (ujsIB)

364 The Polish dissidents under Lech Walesa were fans of "Let it Burn". They signed up for every benefit available. They took whatever was offered, eventually helping the Fire destroy the state.

And now they're staunch allies to American ideals and hated by Obama's Administration.

Their example is one to emulate.

Posted by: Nom de Blog at December 10, 2012 11:37 AM (rNekI)

365
I read a few of the comments. Still amazed that some people miss one of the central points Drew made. Here it is in caps: IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWAY, POLLYANNA HEADINTHESANDERS.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 10, 2012 11:39 AM (n/ubI)

366 @Kathy...the goal of LIB is to get it back to a free responssible republic before the evil shit youre talking about is implemented on your children and or grandchildren. We need to stop this shit today. Not put it off for our children to deal.with. we still have the.tools to do it...30 years from now it will/may be all stripped from us so a citizen has no free.speech...no right to bear arms etc.

Posted by: John Stark Dark at December 10, 2012 11:39 AM (Dk/AO)

367
"Cuts will happen when we convince a majority of voters that cuts need to
happen. Will will only convince them when they believe that the
alternative is that THEIR TAXES WILL GO UP. They don't believe that now.
Because, oddly, we haven't made that argument. How about we try logic
before giving up?"

I'm really getting tired of the same old argument that somehow we're just not making our point.
We made our point and they rejected it because accepting it means they're going to stop getting stuff that believe they're entitled to.
It means accepting that they were never entitled in the first place.
There is no misunderstanding here. They want you to pay for their stuff.

Posted by: RayJ at December 10, 2012 11:39 AM (pI/IV)

368 Is this the part where Atlas shrugs?

Posted by: Davidlind at December 10, 2012 11:40 AM (J9mCu)

369 I think what true Libertarians are advocating is a self -correcting limited 'let it burn' as it were. For example, instead of bailing out GM, should have let it go its way, seen GM go into bankruptcy, correct its weaknesses, acquired new investors, and struggle to right itself.

If the Washington money handing out system crashes and burns, that does not necessarily lead to total economic failure. The opposite may be true. There will be a lot of bureaucrats in the bread lines though.

Posted by: Sphynx at December 10, 2012 11:40 AM (j2McS)

370 "The sooner it burns, the sooner we can try and rebuild."
---

I agree, but the BIG problem we need to consider is this:

How do we put ourselves in a position where it's "WE" who will do the rebuilding? All I see these days are teh statists putting themselves in better positions to grab control when things finally go belly up...

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 10, 2012 11:41 AM (Y5I9o)

371 I think people overestimate what Let it Burn really means. From a practical perspective, it means we go over the fiscal cliff. From the CBO's report, it sounds like a 3 foot ledge. The fiscal cliff is not as ominous as it sounds, and let it burn is not as scary as it sounds. Both are rather mild. It simply means we will no longer be complicit in kicking this thing down the road.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 11:41 AM (gmeXX)

372 299, the public will say "Darn it, somebody should do something about it! Hey, has the Honey Boo Boo marathon started yet?"

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 10, 2012 11:41 AM (HoGA+)

373
If the Washington money handing out system crashes and burns, that does not necessarily lead to total economic failure. The opposite may be true. There will be a lot of bureaucrats in the bread lines though.

I call that win-win.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:42 AM (TULs6)

374 You can't buy votes with broken money.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:42 AM (TULs6)

375 I think one thing that has to be understood here. Let it burn means that
we are throwing a large chunk of the country away forever. I think most
are OK with that, but an increasingly socialist/dependent and
capitalist hating people in large swaths of the country will turn to
communism and war to "get what is theirs." Those trying to re-establish
the founding principles will be the antiChrist to them.


If so, then at least we'll be able to have that "discussion" and settle the matter once and for all. I don't say this because I want a confrontation to occur, or that I'm going to go out and instigate one. I say it because after the Burn, we'll be forced to rebuild our local communities, hopefully, as something better and more sustainable than the one before it. I'm not going to bother anyone, and please don't bother me. If and when the FSA wants to come and force me to join them into rebuilding the new socialist America, I'll say 'not interested'. If they don't get the hint and come back again with more bodies, then we'll finally get to the big "talk". One way or another, the questions will be answered.

Posted by: EC at December 10, 2012 11:43 AM (GQ8sn)

376
How do we put ourselves in a position where it's "WE" who will do the rebuilding? All I see these days are teh statists putting themselves in better positions to grab control when things finally go belly up...

So you're saying we'll be in a better position with a greater chance if we wait a bit longer for them to finish?

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:43 AM (TULs6)

377 Democrats haven’t had to advocate an across the board tax hike since 1993, yet they’ve never had to scale back their promises. What kind of dumb ass movement let that happen? Oh, right, the conservative movement. Let’s correct some of the obvious flaws in our strategy before we give up.
Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 10:57 AM (9KqcB)"

What movement let this happen? The "movement" by very definition isn't a "movement". It happened because it couldn't fight a real movement that has overtaken the mediums of "issue framing".

You show me an election in the last 20 yearswhere the GOP or conservatives made the case that "The Democrats want European sytle government. This is how much it's going to cost" and then we can talk about sinister forces keeping us from framing issues to our benefit. Because, we didn't make the argument.

Plus,'let it burn' continuesthe 50-year mistake of the Right that we can just focus on what happens in Washington and the rest will follow. Being a spectator at the bonfire is same old same old.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 11:44 AM (9KqcB)

378 Adding to comatus commenting on e-man:

There's no such thing as a "red state." I'm in the "reddest" of places -- but even in my tiny, ultra-conservative Kansas farming town, a quarter of the vote went for Obama. The country is purple, I'm sorry to say. The dividing line in this country is not a handy, visible, geographic one like the one we had in the War Between the States. No, this line of division goes right through the heart of every state, every town, every family.

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 11:44 AM (F0o5k)

379 The other good thing about the fiscal cliff is that some of government gets cut. Not the part that I would like to see cut, in fact the part I would least like to see cut. BUt there should be no sacred cows. A 5% cut across the board, every department, would be a good start. But any kind of cut is actually agood start. Just cut. I now don't care where it starts. Just start cutting government.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 11:45 AM (gmeXX)

380 364...

Hence the decision to stiff them on the missile defense.


Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 10, 2012 11:45 AM (iuY0Y)

381 I like the Smokey the Bear ads that come up with Let It Burn. Teh Interwebs are ironic.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 11:46 AM (i0vBR)

382 I am in the Let It Burn camp.

Why? We are at the point where the issues we face cannot be solved by Political Discourse.

It is now time for Adam Smith's Invisible Hand to solve those issues for us. It will be painful.

What will be even more painful will be the Civil War that is sure to follow as the Left and its alliance of Moochers and Looters throw a temper tantrum at the end of the freebies.

Let It Burn is the absolute best chance for Conservatism.

Posted by: Holger at December 10, 2012 11:46 AM (MHk3m)

383 I think Drew thoroughly articulated LIB.

My Dad said something in the early 80's that I thought to be, well, pretty harsh. He told me that most welfare recipients have no intention of ever leaving the public dole and that they only do two things well: Fornicate and count money. That turned out to be pretty much true. These people don't care about their personal debts, much less the national debt. It will always be someone else who pays their bills. And they seem to have no problem justifying their entitlement. In fact, they are ungrateful for their current benefits while they clamor for more.

It occurs to me that perhaps our government has no intention of ever paying for their spending. It's almost as if they want to destroy us. I feel they see Americans as criminals. colonizers, and any personal success is a direct result of leveraging a discriminatory and oppressive network or system. That's the underlying message of their policies and I, for one, will not stand for it.

The truth, the truth, the truth is on fire.
We dont need more taxes, LTMFB!




Posted by: Rob at December 10, 2012 11:47 AM (I68qy)

384 The dividing line in this country is not a handy, visible, geographic one like the one we had in the War Between the States. No, this line of division goes right through the heart of every state, every town, every family.
Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 11:44 AM (F0o5k)

The same was true during the American Revolution, with tories and patriots sharing the same space, living in the same towns and sometimes even sharing the same homes. Things were sorted out eventually.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 11:47 AM (vtiE6)

385 Well hell, we're saying the same thing then.

Largely. I just don't like 'self-correcting', it implies it will take care of itself--it won't. It will require work, and lots of it, and more than a bit of luck.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at December 10, 2012 11:49 AM (GBXon)

386 Will the public just shrug their shoulders or will they be pissed at the government for allowing it to happen?
Posted by: jewells45 at December 10, 2012 11:09 AM (l/N7H)


They will demand a new program that gives them more free shit that no one has to pay for.

Posted by: cajun carrot at December 10, 2012 11:49 AM (UZQM8)

387 Someone above said the problem with "Let It Burn" is that what arises won't be designed by Jefferson and Madison, but by Stalin and Pol Pot. That is possible, of course, but the system designed by Jefferson and Madison is being so distorted and corrupted that it isn't redeemable anymore. The new system-to-be might indeed be designed by the bad guys, but if enough who still believe in the original system are determined enough, we may be able to put it back in place -- after the system corrupted by Stalin and Pol Pot falls apart, which it is in the process of doing. I don't believe there is any saving it now. I allowed myself to hope during the 2012 campaign, but I had the sinking sensation that it was beyond salvage. Human, and political, nature was not on our side.

So "Let It Burn". Maybe then we, or those who follow us, can build something as great as America once was before the looters destroyed it. Just be sure your children and their children learn the lesson of what ruined America, so they won't be tempted to copy it.

Posted by: Lee at December 10, 2012 11:50 AM (RtwOA)

388 John Stark Dark @366:
Thanks for taking my concerns seriously.
I'll certainly give your perspective some thought.

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 11:50 AM (F0o5k)

389 Let it burn is actually the most rational of all solutions out there.

If the public wants the free stuff, let the public pay. The public thinks raising taxes on the rich will not affect them. I think the public is wrong. Conservatism is about letting the public control their own lives. Here you go public. You are now getting the bi-partisan solution you have wanted. If you didn't want your taxes to be raised, you should have either demanded that the Dems permanently extend your taxes when they had complete power or simply not elected the tax party from the get-go.

Likewise, the public has basically said that they don't want to cut government. Otherwise, the public would have demanded that the GOP do that when they had power or would have voted Obama out.

Let the public have what it wants. What could be more conservative than that.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 11:52 AM (gmeXX)

390 @376:"So you're saying we'll be in a better position with a greater chance if we wait a bit longer for them to finish?
Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:43 AM (TULs6)"
---

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm asking a serious question. Think about it: The people who we're against (e.g., the Cloward-Piven types) WANT the system to break so that they can come in and take full control (Cf. any communist revolution in the 20th century). If we're serious about LIB, we need to figure out how to position ourselves so that we actually get to do rebuilding instead of dying against walls.

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 10, 2012 11:52 AM (Y5I9o)

391 1 - The burnening is inevitable. They voted for it, let'em have it good and hard. Why should I allow them to enslave me and mine?

2 - We conservatives will be blamed and demonized no matter what we do.

3 - Better to do it now while there are still some of us who remember what a free society was like.

4 - Prepare, remember who put us here, and sharpen your knives for the aftermath.

Posted by: Butch at December 10, 2012 11:52 AM (0APJ3)

392
I would guess that if the can is further kicked down the proverbial road and BHO and the Dems and current crop of Repub leaders are in charge, then we are definitely on the road to Depression II, the Big One.


BUT, if we go over the "cliff" (more like a two foot rapid in a canoe ride) two things could happen.

1. TehOne will fuck things up considerably and pretty much play by the rules and the populace will get disgusted with His Highness eventually.

2. TehOne will alight with his super cape all aflutter and announce he's here to 'save' us, as FDR on steroids, application of executive orders left and right, mostly left.


Posted by: Sphynx at December 10, 2012 11:52 AM (j2McS)

393
Someone burned Detroit to the ground 20-30 years ago. They still elect Democrats.

Posted by: JustLikeDavidHasselhoff at December 10, 2012 11:52 AM (Rwrs+)

394 How to find Let It Burn poseurs: ask if they own a firearm.

Posted by: In the bunker at December 10, 2012 11:53 AM (R7H3g)

395 For those of you that are wondering what Step 2 is, or still coming up with solutions to stop the burning: it's ok. Relax. You're not there yet, and that's ok. Keep up the good fight. One day you'll see it, and we'll be there waiting with open arms. And marshmallows.

For those of you worried about the rebuild: when there are more of us than there are of them, then the rebuilding can begin. But don't expect that world to look anything like this one.

Posted by: Mob at December 10, 2012 11:55 AM (jVJ3N)

396 Kathy, very true.

I was just about to point out the loyalist tories, I see troy beat me to it. Many tories became what we now call f'n Canadians.

This kind of sorting out has to happen. The alternative is one side simply giving in to the other. When the crap hits the fan, many of those people who voted for the leftist, would become the opposition party in a new system...and it all starts over again.

Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 10, 2012 11:55 AM (iuY0Y)

397 I'm really getting tired of the same old argument that somehow we're just not making our point.We made our point and they rejected it because accepting it means they're going to stop getting stuff that believe they're entitled to.

No we didn't. Go back and look at 2012. Which candidate faced charges that he would 'raise taxes on the middle class.' Amazingly, it was ours.

We did not make our most basic point.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 11:56 AM (9KqcB)

398 Yes. Let it Burn! Burn, Baby, Burn!

Screw the Republicans too. Jeb Bush? WTF are they thinking?

Posted by: Hooray for Captain Spaulding at December 10, 2012 11:57 AM (LDlNv)

399
The real answer is to move to red states and fortify them. I'm pretty sure Utah, Oklahoma, Texas, etc. will survive whatever comes and still be decent places to live. Try to isolate blue state problems to blue states. Save what you can.

Posted by: JustLikeDavidHasselhoff at December 10, 2012 11:57 AM (Rwrs+)

400
Who has even raised those questions? What role did they play in the election we just had? Zip. We let the choice be between: The Guy Who Promises Everything at No Cost to You and The Guy Who Promised Nothing at No Cost to You.

Bullshit. You see it that way because you're a political junkie.

Where the end of the road lies and what do we do when we finally get there is in the back of everybody's minds. Those questions have been posed for decades by everyone from the chattering class to the low information voter standing in the voting booth.

How long have we acknowledged that we need to fix Social Security, that it's currently unsustainable? Decades.

How long have we acknowledged that we need to fix Medicare, that it's currently unsustainable? Decades.

How long have we acknowledged that we need to reduce the deficit, that it can't be increased forever? Decades.

And what have we chosen to do about it?

Kick the can down the road.

For decades.

It's the only palatable solution to most Americans. Sorry to burst your bubble but those are the facts.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 10, 2012 11:58 AM (tOkJB)

401 The same was true during the American Revolution, with tories and patriots sharing the same space, living in the same towns and sometimes even sharing the same homes. Things were sorted out eventually.

This is actually quite true. And worth remembering that the patriots were in the minority. Most people (in any era) just don't care enough. It took a small, though sizable minority, made up of great men to achieve the revolution.

The conservative revolution can be achieved in the same way. We don't need a majority of the country. But we do need leaders who are willing to risk their sacred honor (if not their life) to achieve conservative principles.

Maybe we are getting their with Rubio, Cruz, Ryan. Eventually, it will take a true leader to be the unifying head. The conservative movement can win this.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 11:58 AM (gmeXX)

402 The reason the libertarians don't have all the answers is their refusal to see that our core problem is a moral one. If we don't respect the basic laws that God designed into the fabric of the universe, things go to heck. How hard is that to understand? If you insist on rebelling against the law of gravity because it's "unfair" to all creatures who aren't birds, and decide to step off a 30-story building to protest it, you're gonna end up splattered on the pavement -- and that's not "God punishing you," it's just the logical consequences of your own rebellious stupidity.

Well, it works the same with moral laws. The universe is designed a certain way, with certain limits circumscribed in it -- flout those, and you WILL suffer consequences. A society that rejects God, ranting about what an "unfair" "oppressor" He is, will eventually disintegrate.

There will be no rebirth of America without a spiritual revival.

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 11:58 AM (F0o5k)

403
we need to figure out how to position ourselves so that we actually get to do rebuilding instead of dying against walls.

Where conservatives are concentrated. They will rebuild on conservative principles. Where liberals are concentrated, Mad Max.

Of course, we have to actually keep the walls, not die on them. Then we win, automatically. Natural selection style.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:58 AM (TULs6)

404
Well, it works the same with moral laws. The universe is designed a certain way, with certain limits circumscribed in it -- flout those, and you WILL suffer consequences.

Oh quit. Libertarians do not reject moral law. It's an issue of people having a choice (and getting the consequence). You apparently have no idea what libertarianism is.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 12:00 PM (TULs6)

405 Posted by: Jason at December 10, 2012 11:36 AM (6VB4r)

Jason, keep in mind you're making this decision based on two whole elections. (One, really, because few mentioned LiB before the recent loss, and even fewer expressed support.)

I don't think the LiB folks have seriously considered the toll of what they are advocating, based on losing two presidential elections (with a significant conservative victory just two years ago in the midterms.)

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:00 PM (9KqcB)

406 Detroit did burn to the ground and the conservatives left that smoldering hole to the people who caused it.

This is the sorting out we have been talking about.

Detroit might be the best example. It was the poster child of progressive movement in the 1950's and 1960's. They experimented on that city like no other.

Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 10, 2012 12:00 PM (iuY0Y)

407 LIB means rebuild after. Well, you can't do it unless you elect restoration-minded folks. Restore the Constitution to its original meaning. Any other target is shifting sand.

Helpful hint: Rubio is a great Values Conservative. Love him being in the Senate.

He isn't a Restoration guy. He just isn't. I wish to heck he was.

Posted by: K~Bob at December 10, 2012 12:01 PM (8X89e)

408 I'm really getting tired of the same old argument that somehow we're just not making our point.We made our point and they rejected it because accepting it means they're going to stop getting stuff that believe they're entitled to. I actually don't think we ever have made our point that effectively. We have made it half-assed. Conservative positions have won and won big. We won on gun control. We have seen many gains in pro-life movement (R v. W did anything but settle the issue). We won on taxes. The problem is that we didn't win the flip-side, spending.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 12:02 PM (gmeXX)

409 403:"Of course, we have to actually keep the walls, not die on them. Then we win, automatically. Natural selection style.
Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 11:58 AM (TULs6)
---

Ok, that's easy to say now. But I'm concerned about what happens when you have someone like BO who has control over the media, the police, and enough of the military. These people don't just leave the opposition alone if it's a bit troublesome. The top priority after the collapse is the purge

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at December 10, 2012 12:02 PM (Y5I9o)

410 TehOne will fuck things up considerably and pretty much play by the rules and the populace will get disgusted with His Highness eventually.
Posted by: Sphynx at December 10, 2012 11:52 AM (j2McS)

Most of thepopulace will think what they're told to think. Real unemployment figures and real inflation rates are hidden. Figures regarding per capita income loss since 2008 will never see the light of day. Also never mentioned is the fact that 'fair share'tax increases in the top 2% will generate a comparatively paltry $80 billion and will haveno discernible effect on anything. Nothing negative about President Obama will be allowed to take root in the public consciousness.

Oh, and yeah: check the favorability numbers for President Obama. They're up.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 12:03 PM (vtiE6)

411 People need to quit conflating letting the current socialist government burn with burning down civilization. One doesn't necessarily follow from the other.

Posted by: dick cheese at December 10, 2012 12:04 PM (QupBk)

412
Someone burned Detroit to the ground 20-30 years ago. They still elect Democrats.

Because they're fed from the outside. Detroit is not remotely sustainable, it's a tremendous liability on whatever supports it. Money from the feds and money from the rest of Michigan. It doesn't produce anything. Cut off outside help and that pit would empty out completely before year's end. Maybe 100,000 people may remain, subsisting off of rats and alley cats.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 12:05 PM (TULs6)

413 If you are going to talk about long term and reducing entitlements, then you need to rebuild the family as a unit. Children are supposed to take care of their parents when they get old. If you don't have kids (like me) you are looking at reliance on the government. You have to build responsibility into the family before it will be reflected in the culture. Got a teenager that got a girl pregnant (or a girl that got pregnant)? Insist on marriage. If nothing else, you'll have some rights to your grandchild.

Until we start thinking of the family as an economic unit again, we are all screwed.

Posted by: NotsothoreauI at December 10, 2012 12:05 PM (uPhCY)

414 Indeed! The burn.

Posted by: The Trammps at December 10, 2012 12:05 PM (4eNxd)

415 The other fatal flaw of Let it Burn: The decades-long timeline. Byt the time things bottom out, demographics dictate that the Right will not be in a position to elect anyone, or fix anything, or call any place home.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:06 PM (9KqcB)

416 I fail to see how passively sitting by and giving the President and his people what they want without a (political) fight is a winning strategy.
Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 11:35 AM (vtiE6)



There is no winning strategy. The only way a person can win is to strip every bit of wealth available from the US, and then bug out. Working on that myself right now.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 10, 2012 12:06 PM (Qqva6)

417 Most of the folks I've talked to about the impending "fiscal cliff"(what a perfect fear tag invented by the Liberals to terrorize the pansy Republicans into taking the blame for higher taxes), they have overwhelmingly said they are in favor of letting it happen. Why? Because it will correct George Bush's removal of millions from paying federal income tax as the brackets will be restored to reach downward.
Honestly, we have all been complaining(and Romney voiced it, although he thought privately) that not enough Americans pay income tax. I personally believe it is a step in the right direction. Do I want to pay more income tax, hell no, but the Republicans have put themselves in this untenable position. And the country, IMO, is now in an untenable position also, with over 50% of it's citizens owing no income tax, and many getting paid by the government because they are getting earned income credits.
That 50% who voted Democrat need to once again particpate in paying for the government they seem to want.
But then, I am in the flat tax, no deduction crowd. If we removed all deductions, and required a 10% tax on everyone, the tax code could no longer be used as a political currency to buy votes. (That currency is perfectly illustrated by what Obama is doing as we speak, i.e. tax the rich which gets the vote of the poor....)
The GOP and conservatives have been screaming for YEARS that none of the current entitlement programs are sustainable, but like a parent who says, "wait till your father gets home" and then nothing happens, it has become meaningless to most people.
Take Medicare Part D for example. We all screamed that it was another entitlement that the federal government should have no business providing, etc. What happened?
Seniors love Medicare part D because it actually did what it was supposed to do....it has allowed competition in the market place by creating government supervised pools of drug insurance plans. The government of course is subsidizing those plans, but seniors , because they aren't waiting for government reimbursement for their plan, are oblivious to that fact. Aunt Martha now can get her meds at what seems like a reasonable cost ($35-90 a month depending on the plan). Of course, just about every senior I know is on some kind of med, whether it be for BP, diabetes, etc. Marriage made in heaven for sure, and the folks think that they are PAYING for this entitlement, so who are these conservatives who dare attempt to remove this entitlement?
People who think that it is just the minority or young crowd that want entitlements need to think again. There is a huge population of "roosevelt seniors" who have lived their entire lives with the thinking that the government has the power to make their life better and that somehow because they have paid into it via income tax, SS, or medicare, they should now reap everything they were promised(in exchange for their vote). Never mind that the costs have not remotely begun to keep up with the promises, they feel they have earned it. And the Democrats play on that combination of entitlement and fear of financial insecurity perfectly.
We have to start educating the young, IMO, it is the only hope. And part of the education starts with taxing their asses. If we can start removing the "safety net" that is simply redistribution for the young able bodied, I believe it will begin to help incentivize and encourage a better mindset toward entitlements and costs.

Posted by: Jen at December 10, 2012 12:07 PM (xECMg)

418 Apropos of the country electing Obama twice:
Putting aside the probability that he just plain STOLE an election that Romney legitimately won....

I find it ironic that the reason the GOP didn't challenge the massive fraud was because of a "consent decree" reached 30-some years ago that basically ties the GOP's hands and prevents them from challenging it -- and the consent decree was the result of a voter fraud case involving RACE.
http://tinyurl.com/axx8t3r

Combine that with the fact that a white version of radical Marxist Obama would never have been elected in the first place --

and I'm just struck with how we are STILL paying the price for the heinous sin of slavery. It's like America's "original sin" -- and damn if we aren't STILL suffering the consequences of it.

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 12:09 PM (F0o5k)

419 Just stop voting. Not for anyone, let the fools who beleive their votes count continue but when the turn out for democrats is being won by a 100% turn out for democrats because republicans and conservatives just quit voting means the blame will not fall again on them.
The Democrats won it and the winner takes it all, let them have it and let it burn because of them.

Posted by: obsidian at December 10, 2012 12:09 PM (D0p9t)

420
Ok, that's easy to say now. But I'm concerned about what happens when you have someone like BO who has control over the media, the police, and enough of the military. These people don't just leave the opposition alone if it's a bit troublesome. The top priority after the collapse is the purge

If they lose, they lose. If we lose, we lose.

Again: when will we be stronger? Will our odds be better if we wait longer? The best shot we have is 2 seconds ago. There will never be a better time than Yesterday. Waiting is just a passive aggressive form of surrender. Whether we're good enough or not, the time to find out was Yesterday and counting. The sooner it happens the more chance we have.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 12:10 PM (TULs6)

421 If (and when) it all goes up in smoke, they will blame Bush and the Joos - in that order.

And scarier (if that is possible) :::
"President Hillary Clinton, today nominated Barack Obama, the 44th President of the United States to the Supreme Court..."

Posted by: Ed Gibbon at December 10, 2012 12:11 PM (4eNxd)

422 Detroit is not remotely sustainable, it's a tremendous liability on whatever supports it. Money from the feds and money from the rest of Michigan. It doesn't produce anything. Cut off outside help and that pit would empty out completely before year's end. Maybe 100,000 people may remain, subsisting off of rats and alley cats.
Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 12:05 PM (TULs6)



I hate Detroit and the drain it puts on my state, but this is a bit of hyperbole. There is still plenty of real life work going on in the Detroit area and its immediate surrounds. However, the underclass breeding program has been very effective there. They're the problem, and Republicans bear as much blame for that as the Demotards, because the do-gooders would not even advocate doing anything about restraining their reproduction. Until we're willing to address the problem of the underclass, there can be no solution. At least with LIB maybe they'll die off if things get really bad.

All it would have taken was to mandate that recipients of government largess be sterilized prior to getting benefits. There would never have been a "president Obama" if that had happened. America would still be a center-right nation.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 10, 2012 12:11 PM (Qqva6)

423 Entropy --

Most libertarians I know think it should remain legal for a woman to kill her baby before birth. Any nation that condones, through legalizing, the killing of defenseless dependents will not long survive.

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 12:11 PM (F0o5k)

424 Detroit did burn to the ground and the conservatives left that smoldering hole to the people who caused it. This is the sorting out we have been talking about.

But where do you go when you've let the whole country burn? Plus, we've been paying dearly for Detroit ever since it's collapse - state and federal taxes.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:12 PM (9KqcB)

425
Posted by: Jen at December 10, 2012 12:07 PM (xECMg)

Good rant, but like I noted earlier most people are apolitical.

What they've got isn't the greatest, but change is too unpredictable. Most Americans currently prefer the devil they know.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 10, 2012 12:15 PM (tOkJB)

426 Most Libertarians I know are personally pro-life, and believe the road you really want runs through the return of states rights.

Posted by: Jack Wagon at December 10, 2012 12:15 PM (KUPae)

427 If the electorate wanted socialism, 2012 would have been a Democrat wave year. In fact, Obama won by 50-48, which is not a mandate by any stretch of the imagination. Republicans continued to make gains at the state level, where we see the most effective challenges to Obamacare's implementation. The Senate was lost by the Huckabee wing of the GOP and Akin and Mourdock branding the base as a bunch of nut jobs. Basically, it was a repeat of 2010 with the Democrats enjoying a greater advantage with Obama on the ticket. He was popular enough to get reelected, but his policies were not popular enough to earn him a mandate. All he cared about was the former, though. The (let It Burn) LIB crowd is playing into the hands of the far left by pushing a Cloward Piven strategy and pretending to accommodate the voters. They voted for gridlock, not extremism, because thwarting the Democrats was more appealing to them than holding Mitt Romney's feet to the fire. LI and behold, on the heels of a Romney defeat, his healthcare adviser Avik Roy comes out in the National Review and tells Americans to give up on repealing Obamacare or any entitlement reform. So, the voters knew what they were doing when they voted down Mitt Romney, a man they surmised was a preening narcissist with no vision for the country save placating his own vanity. I came around to supporting him after the primary, but now that the election is over and he's head cheerleader for the welfare state, fuck him. The only thing that should burn is the GOP establishment, if they can't continue holding the line.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 12:15 PM (i0vBR)

428 I don't think reasonable people will blame the Republicans for the financial burn with the Dems controlling the Senate and especially the Presidency. Again we don't need 100% of the people to take back this country. We just need a solid majority.

Posted by: polynikes at December 10, 2012 12:15 PM (m2CN7)

429 excellent post, i agree.

let the two-party system own this crap and then maybe when it all comes crashing down people will finally start asking some serious questions... suffering & misery have a way of shaking people out of their mind-numbed slumber.

Posted by: Shoey at December 10, 2012 12:15 PM (m6OUa)

430 But then, I am in the flat tax, no deduction crowd. If we removed all deductions, and required a 10% tax on everyone, the tax code could no longer be used as a political currency to buy votes. (That currency is perfectly illustrated by what Obama is doing as we speak, i.e. tax the rich which gets the vote of the poor....)
Posted by: Jen at December 10, 2012 12:07 PM (xECMg)



Do you include eliminating the per-child credit/deduction? If so, I'm with you. I'll give up my mortgage interest deduction willingly if I no longer have to subsidize people's reproduction.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 10, 2012 12:15 PM (Qqva6)

431 and I'm just struck with how we are STILL paying the price for the heinous sin of slavery. It's like America's "original sin" -- and damn if we aren't STILL suffering the consequences of it.

I thought I was the only one who pegged it as our "original sin."

True, this is what animates the Left like nothing else. To understand the Left, undertsand that they: 1. Hate what America was. 2. Don't like what it is. 3. See as it's only saving grace that it can be changed into something different.

Basically, they think the U.S. is an illegitimate nation, and can only find legitimacy buy effectively killing itself.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:15 PM (9KqcB)

432 For those against Let It Burn, I really don't think doing something like letting the country go back to the Clinton tax rates or cutting around $800 billion in spending is the stuff of terrorists. We just don't want to cut a deal that saves liberals from themselves. No more Novacaine.

People need to understand the costs of Big Government, and clearly, campaign ads aren't enough. They really need to feel it and liberals need to own it.

Posted by: McAdams at December 10, 2012 12:17 PM (SMxiG)

433 DrewM, you didn't actually explain what "Let it burn" means.

Does it mean that the House Republicans should actually vote for Democrat tax increases? To what end, exactly?

"Let the liberals own it"...by voting with them. That's nonsense. They'll throw the Republicans' votes back in their faces, and the Republicans will have nothing to use against the Democrats in the next election, just as Romney was incapable of attacking Obama on half of the issues, because they fucking agreed on those issues -- Romneycare/Obamacare, etc.

I can understand the argument for Republican house members voting "present", should there ever be a vote to raise taxes on the "top 2%", because otherwise, we'll get that increase on the top 2% anyway when the Bush tax cuts expire, but then the Democrats will be able to champion a "tax cut" on the bottom 98%, most of whom pay no taxes (thus the scare quotes). But that's not really "letting it burn". It's a tactical move.

Will things go to shit? Certainly. But it's not going to be a post-apocalyptic wasteland, and we won't rise up from any ashes. That's a fantasy.

That's all this "Let It Burn" nonsense is: A salve for our damaged egos, a balm for the ass-beating we (and the future of the country) took on 6 November. If it makes you feel better, go ahead and pretend that this is all a victory for conservatives in the long game.

But it's not really, and the pretense is childish petulance. It's a 12-year-old who just lost his queen for a bishop and proclaims "Hah, I didn't even want that queen. Here's a rook."

Hell, it might even be in that Gamesmanship book Ace recommended. But DrewM, that book is meant to be taken as droll British humor, not as a political and philosophical manifesto.

Posted by: Pastafarian at December 10, 2012 12:18 PM (ffv4E)

434 Most libertarians I know think it should remain legal for a woman to kill her baby before birth. Any nation that condones, through legalizing, the killing of defenseless dependents will not long survive.
Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at December 10, 2012 12:11 PM (F0o5k)



I agree that abortion is a morally evil thing, and I am convinced that those who do it will have to answer for it one day. But from a practical standpoint, it has helped the US more than hurt. Look who have the bulk of them - not conservatives. The Leftists and their client populations are the ones murdering their own babies. It sickens me, but I say - let them.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 10, 2012 12:18 PM (Qqva6)

435 I'll give up my mortgage interest deduction willingly if I no longer have to subsidize people's reproduction.

That's one of the few breaks that actually benefits married couples with children. Since I'm being tasked with 1. Populating the nation and 2. Caring for other people's children, Ima gonna have to insist on this bread crumb.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:18 PM (9KqcB)

436 BTW, if you're not prepared to cut $50 billion THIS YEAR from the Defense Budget (~$650 billion), I'd suggest that you, too, are a LIBIDO.

Posted by: km at December 10, 2012 12:18 PM (EBJjb)

437 How do we plan for the aftermath?

Posted by: The Political Hat at December 10, 2012 12:19 PM (sZTYJ)

438 My give-a-damn is broken on the whole thing at this point. We're already off the fiscal cliff, but apparently Teh Bernank can keep levitating us forever. As long as there is no consequence to printing money, like hyperinflation or a total boycott in world financial markets of the dollar and US Treasury bonds, nothing is going to change. No politicians will ever force America to pay for the government it wants.

I've told both of my kids to prepare for careers and lives outside the U.S. My son is a musician and aspiring composer and lives frugally, he will be able to leave and go almost anywhere to practice his craft. My daughter has already wised up and wants to go to college and live in Canada.

I'm resigned to retiring in poverty and probably dying an early death. I have little savings now as I used most of it to survive my three-year funemployment, and I have no time to rebuild anything. I am at the end of the Baby Boom and everything will be bankrupt by the time I am 75 or so. I figure it will be Soylent Green time by then and there will be large euthanasia centers for all of us to go die in peace.

America is over. The only real concern I have now is for Israel.

Posted by: rockmom at December 10, 2012 12:20 PM (qE3AR)

439 This '90s song about arson was talked of being banned from air play when it came out. Don't know if anyone remembers or posted it on any recent threads. I hear it now and like to think it is about how an Obama voter is carrying the seeds of his/our own destruction and imagine he is in a city like Detroit. Hope no one gets too close to the fire and hope the Phoenix will rise again-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KB54p8_wh8

Posted by: Jason Newton at December 10, 2012 12:21 PM (z6KMg)

440 OK, I dropped out of this thread for some time and honestly don't even know if anyone is still here. But I have to ask a quick question of the people who think folks like me (the LIB crowd) are, in a word, nuts.

In scanning the comments I find that, in order to address the problems and "turn this thing around" we need to completely overhaul (and I'm sure I've missed some things):
1) The American Family
2) The Media (all of it - movies, TV, books, news, papers, magazines, culture - All. Of. It.)
3) The Education System (again... All. Of. It.)
4) Our Monetary System, and
5) The Entitlement Culture in the US

So here's my simple question: do you honestly believe we have the generation or two worth of time it would require to successfully address any single one of these, much less all of them (and any I left out)?

Posted by: DocJ at December 10, 2012 12:21 PM (A5uiv)

441 But where do you go when you've let the whole country burn? Plus, we've
been paying dearly for Detroit ever since it's collapse - state and
federal taxes.


The whole country won't really burn...only those areas that need to, by which I mean the large urban coastal cities.

Once the Federal government collapses, that paying for Detroit shit is gonna be over.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 10, 2012 12:23 PM (cHr8a)

442 That's one of the few breaks that actually benefits married couples with children. Since I'm being tasked with 1. Populating the nation and 2. Caring for other people's children, Ima gonna have to insist on this bread crumb.
Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:18 PM (9KqcB)


Oh yeah? Well then the mortgage interest deduction, which goes a long way to support the VITAL housing market, must also be kept. Housingisa core market necessary to maintain employment, thus is sacred. Anyway, why should married couples with children get special breaks? Why is it the single male's job to carry them? I'm paying for other people's bastards, too - you get no sympathy from me.
We don't need more rug rats running around. We can't employ all the people we already have - labor is increasingly redundant and we can't seem to figure out how to get everyone involved in the economic system as it is. The moreyard apes we crank out the harder it will be to find something for all of them to do.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 10, 2012 12:24 PM (Qqva6)

443 Amen.

Posted by: Mary at December 10, 2012 12:25 PM (Bf+ur)

444 still self-contradictory

Posted by: Gerry at December 10, 2012 12:25 PM (2ifWQ)

445 America is over. The only real concern I have now is for Israel.
Posted by: rockmom at December 10, 2012 12:20 PM (qE3AR)

My advice? Get the hell away from political stuff for awhile. Maybe you'll feel differently about things a few days or weeks or months from now. You (and others) are allowing your worst fears to run rampant, without check. Take a step back, please, and try to look at things with a measure of emotional detachment.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 12:26 PM (vtiE6)

446 But where do you go when you've let the whole country burn? Plus, we've
been paying dearly for Detroit ever since it's collapse - state and
federal taxes.

But it looks like Michigan is finally going to flush out Detroit, by dissolving its government as part of the bankruptcy proceedings.

But we do have to have our "shadow" government in place. And that means having the right people in local government as things devolve.

Posted by: Iblis at December 10, 2012 12:27 PM (9221z)

447 "Why do you think it will be better after a collapse? 50% of the population will still be stupid, uneducated, lazy, and will blame the rich for everything. We've got to stop ignoring the popular culture and start working to change it."

When a real collapse comes, they'll starve and freeze to death or be shot by other people who are protecting their property as they come begging/looting.

One year of famine will solve a lot of the problems we face now.

Posted by: Jack O'Spades at December 10, 2012 12:28 PM (ITRP4)

448 Posted by: DocJ at December 10, 2012 12:21 PM (A5uiv)

Your premise, your summation of opposing views, is as wildly off target as your solution.

Yes, Doing Something will always take more time than Doing Nothing, but that's what Americans do. When faced with a challenge, we Do Something. And it often looks to be an impossible task, but we do it anway, usually for the better.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:29 PM (9KqcB)

449 Take a step back, please, and try to look at things with a measure of emotional detachment.

When you do that, it takes you to...Australia, not here.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 10, 2012 12:29 PM (cHr8a)

450 @448

Swell.

So, how's that whole "Doing Something, Because That's What Americans Do" thing been working out for the USA over my entire lifetime of approximately 50-years or so?

Posted by: DocJ at December 10, 2012 12:30 PM (A5uiv)

451 But we do have to have our "shadow" government in place. And that means having the right people in local government as things devolve.

That's another concern I have -- that local governance won't survive The Burning.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:32 PM (9KqcB)

452 #446, Stop being a wuss. Did Americans pussy-foot about what would happen once they kicked the Brits out? No, let's sack up.

Posted by: Draki at December 10, 2012 12:32 PM (L8r/r)

453
Posted by: rockmom at December 10, 2012 12:20 PM (qE3AR)

I don't have any kids but I'm in the same boat. It sucks.

Things will probably get better someday, but it's most likely to be a long time from now.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 10, 2012 12:36 PM (tOkJB)

454 So, how's that whole "Doing Something, Because That's What Americans Do" thing been working out for the USA over my entire lifetime of approximately 50-years or so?

Well, it ain't on fire. Which makes it more preferable to your solution.

We got here via American voters choosing this course, and the Right not winning the battle of ideas (usually by not engaging the battle.) There is no alternative, in a free society, to persuasion. Even after you've let shit burn, you still have to convince people you are the ones to fix it. No one has demonstrated how LiB makes that more likely.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:36 PM (9KqcB)

455 You lost me at "America isn’t a conservative country anymore." That suggests a fundamental misreading of what "conservative" and "liberal" really mean. Apart from occasional diversions into hysteria and witch-hunts, America has always been a country of capital-L Liberal ideas, and not in a Dems-are-bad-for-taxing-us-all-to-death way. Freedom of speech? The right not to incriminate yourself? Right not to endure unreasonable search and seizure? All Liberal ideas. Let it burn? Sure, but let's at least know what we're talking about.

Posted by: Jeff at December 10, 2012 12:36 PM (0TNZ7)

456 #445 I'm a pessimist by nature, always have been. I'm not obsessing about this either, I am living my life as always. What I don't have anymore is hope for my own future or for America. I was an economics major and I can see what is happening. I worked for President Reagan, but now I look back on that time and think it was just a brief hiccup in a long march to socialsm and misery for America that started with Teddy Roosevelt and is over a century old now. There are not enough conservative minded people left to reverse a 100-year decline from free markets and free people. We have lost what made America unique and blessed among nations.

Posted by: rockmom at December 10, 2012 12:36 PM (qE3AR)

457 To me LIB = the gimmedats getting their fingers shoved into the lightsocket of reality.

Granted, they are as stupid as phuck and might not get it but a few months of $5 dollar loaves of bread, no EBT money coming in and a car that won't run might make them wake from their stupified slumber.

I like Fuck Em better.

Let the parasites learn what they have voted for.

Let the RINO's get drummed out of office and replaced by libertarian/conservatives.

Let the anger and ire begin to turn on the media and the communists democrats.

Let. It. Burn.

Posted by: exsanguine at December 10, 2012 12:37 PM (Pd1/b)

458 Anyway, why should married couples with children get special breaks? Why is it the single male's job to carry them? I'm paying for other people's bastards, too - you get no sympathy from me.

I paid too. Didn't have kids until 35. Married couples are the backbone of this country. No couples - nokids - no America. No *married* couples= more bastards. Sounds like your against procreation. But that can't be right.

We don't need more rug rats running around. We can't employ all the people we already have - labor is increasingly redundant and we can't seem to figure out how to get everyone involved in the economic system as it is. The moreyard apes we crank out the harder it will be to find something for all of them to do.

Oh. You ARE against procreation. Sorry man, I know it's not for everyone, but someone has to do it. And we have to support the ones who do it right.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:40 PM (9KqcB)

459 You want a thought experiment? Here ya go.

I stopped worrying about The Revolution and started thinking about The Day After The Revolution. (Or the day after it burns, whatever.)

So now you(?) are in charge, or a cabal of like-minded morons, what then?

What governance structure do we have in the nwo/rebuilding phase? What local, state, federal laws are still in place? Do we scrap the entire federal code and start making laws from a null-state? Or are commissions appointed to take a meat-axe to the code and bureacratic rules?

How do you go about giving freedom to people that don't want it?

Posted by: Tonic Dog at December 10, 2012 12:42 PM (X/+QT)

460 The other thing that is irreversible in America is the march away from God. This will be a totally secular nation within the next 10 years. Tax exemptions will be taken from churches, and thousands will close their doors. Christians and Jews will be more and more marginalized. The notion of publicor private morality will be ancient history.

"This Constitution was founded for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to govern any other." --John Adams

Self-government is impossible withouta peoplethat believe themselves ultimately answerable to a higher power. Greed and selfishness take hold and politicians make baser and baser appeals to the self-interest of the majority.

Posted by: rockmom at December 10, 2012 12:42 PM (NYnoe)

461
And we have to support the ones who do it right.

Takes a village, after all.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 12:43 PM (TULs6)

462 Once the Federal government collapses, that paying for Detroit shit is gonna be over.

The Federal government won't collapse until after the rest has fallen. It will suck up what it needs to survive, and will be the last to go

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:43 PM (9KqcB)

463 458

Gawd you are fuggin moron.

I don't think to myself "Gee I want a tax break so i am going to spit out another kid!"

So I can get a 2500 deduction for a child that actually costs me 6-10K a year?!

Your logic has left the building.


Posted by: exsanguine at December 10, 2012 12:43 PM (Pd1/b)

464
Yes, Doing Something will always take more time than Doing Nothing, but that's what Americans do. When faced with a challenge, we Do Something. And it often looks to be an impossible task, but we do it anway, usually for the better.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:29 PM (9KqcB)


Sure.

That's why we've already solved Social Security, Medicare, the deficit, the debt, welfare, immigration, energy and so much else.

You're either blind or have a really bad sense of humor.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 10, 2012 12:44 PM (tOkJB)

465 Takes a village, after all.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 12:43 PM (TULs6)

Takes a family. Let mine keep more of its money and move along.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:44 PM (9KqcB)

466 That's why we've already solved Social Security, Medicare, the deficit, the debt, welfare, immigration, energy and so much else.

I didn't say we solve everything. But we sure as hell don't give up just because an election didn't go our way.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:45 PM (9KqcB)

467 Oh. You ARE against procreation. Sorry man, I know it's not for everyone, but someone has to do it. And we have to support the ones who do it right.
Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:40 PM (9KqcB)



Yeah - the ones who do it right. How are we going to set up an effective system to screen for that? I have no problem with procreation per se, but I'm not interested in subsidizing it. When we do that, poor people breed more. Nobody should be making babies unless they can support them by the sweat of their own brow. Nobody's paying me to have a mistress andthereby satisfy my emotional wants- so I'm not interested in paying for others to have chilluns and satisfy theirs.

As for the idea that "somebody has to do it" the question I ask is - Why? It's all swirling down. The nation is f-ed. Any babies our side makes are nothing more than slaves to the Left and their client populations. That's it.

The US got by just fine with a much lower population density than we have now. Making sure we have enough babies doesn't seem to me like a high priority.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 10, 2012 12:46 PM (Qqva6)

468
Let mine keep more of its money and move along.

Why? Because you have kids? No go.

Let everyone keep more of their money. I'm all for people keeping their money. Choosing to have children doesn't make you any more or less entitled to your own shit.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 12:46 PM (TULs6)

469 Liberals are for an expanded entitlement state, but for less procreation. And they say conservatives are against science. This is basic math. A 5 year old could figure it out.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 12:47 PM (gmeXX)

470 Well, it ain't on fire. Which makes it more preferable to your solution.

You've not spent much time in any of the major garden-spots (yes, that's sarcastic) of the US lately, have you.

We got here via American voters choosing this course, and the Right not
winning the battle of ideas (usually by not engaging the battle.)


Ah, I love this part of the argument - the "if only we had The One True Conservative Hope making The Case" salve. I've used it myself, plenty of times. It has the lovely, narcotic effect of absolving society of any responsibility and boils the entire problem down to one of "messaging". It's the corollary to "if only Orca had actually worked then Romney would be working on his transition right now" argument. It ignores the systemic nature of the problem and focuses entirely on the tactical, minute details.

It just doesn't work on me anymore. Sorry. We just disagree.

Posted by: DocJ at December 10, 2012 12:47 PM (A5uiv)

471 Robert Heinlein predicted something like this. Perhaps a century from now it will be a nation of 'citizens' and 'civilians' where the franchise has to be earned and not simply a birthright. A lot can happen in a century. Good and bad. Like a drunk, the nation is going to have to hit rock bottom before we can bounce back. Hopefully we won't need a Hitler to bail us out this time.

Posted by: deepred at December 10, 2012 12:48 PM (YmACv)

472 I don't think to myself "Gee I want a tax break so i am going to spit out another kid!"

Who the fuck thinks that? My point was, of ALL the tax breaks to go after, don't f'ing start with the one that benefits society the most. I'd love a flat tax with no deductions, but until then,move along and let my family have its pittance

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:48 PM (9KqcB)

473
Ah, I love this part of the argument - the "if only we had The One True Conservative Hope making The Case" salve. I've used it myself, plenty of times.

I don't think we'd have managed to burn the country down without it.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 12:49 PM (TULs6)

474 I don't think to myself "Gee I want a tax break so i am going to spit out another kid!"So I can get a 2500 deduction for a child that actually costs me 6-10K a year?!
Posted by: exsanguine at December 10, 2012 12:43 PM (Pd1/b)



Well then - that tells me you don't need the credit/deduction. Good. One more supporter for doing away with it. You may be smart enough to get this, but you'd be amazed at how many grown adults tell me how great it is that thanks to all their kids they don't pay any income tax to the federal government. That needs to stop.

We also need to halt paying for welfare people to make babies. No supplemental subsidy should be paid for kids.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 10, 2012 12:49 PM (Qqva6)

475 @464 - yeah, I tried that argument, albeit tangentially.

The entire myriad of Federal, State and Local government we have - all 42% of GDP of it presently - is a direct result of generations of our response to "Do Something".

Posted by: DocJ at December 10, 2012 12:51 PM (A5uiv)

476 Ah, I love this part of the argument - the "if only we had The One True Conservative Hope making The Case" salve.

DocJ, that's not at all what I wrote. In fact, I think pining for Sen. Hercules G. Rembrant, GOP SAVIOR is a waste.I referred to the battle of ideas. I'll leave it at that.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:51 PM (9KqcB)

477
Oh. You ARE against procreation. Sorry man, I know it's not for everyone, but someone has to do it. And we have to support the ones who do it right.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:40 PM (9KqcB)


You fathered them, you take care of them.

Most bosses have kids and are sympathetic to employees who also have them. If you don't have kids you get shit on in the workplace for your entire life. I'm not anti-procreation or any such loony tune accusation you'll apply to me. I've paid enough, however, in both time and money, for other people's kids. They are not my future. They are not my responsibility.

Take care of them yourself.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 10, 2012 12:52 PM (tOkJB)

478
I haven't read the comments upthread, but it's worth pointing out that the problem, as with so many of ours, involves race.

Dems have used blacks as stalking horses for giving stuff away, and thereby recruiting for the Free Shit Army. Any attempt to stop this triggers cries of "racism!"

Now, after decades of legislation, and the election of a black President, we need to say "enough." We don't owe anybody anything anymore, for any reason. Get off your ass and take care of yourself, or ... not, as you see fit.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 10, 2012 12:52 PM (4u2LN)

479
Not paying attention to theAC unit hurtling toward your headrequires a great deal of pleasant distractions. Gravity is rayciss, that shit ain't gonna hit you. You have a right to not be hit by falling shit! Fuck those haters who want people to be crushed by falling shit.

The whole GOP primary was kind of fun in a perverse way. Do we acknowledge the scope of the fiscal hole we are in? Do we?

The only guy in the whole primary who did was largely reviled as a crazy kook.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 12:53 PM (TULs6)

480 The entire myriad of Federal, State and Local government we have - all 42% of GDP of it presently - is a direct result of generations of our response to "Do Something".

You mean the actual NUMBER of local governments is a result of a faulty attitude, or their costs? Because this nation began with a series of local governments, and most - outside the cities - still practice limited government.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:54 PM (9KqcB)

481
We also need to halt paying for welfare people to make babies. No supplemental subsidy should be paid for kids.


A girlfriend of mine in grad school was a social worker in SF, and predictably very liberal. Even she used to complain about numbnuts clients of hers who would have more kids to get more money, and simply could not grasp her arguments to them about the increased costs. More money = good, in their view.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 10, 2012 12:54 PM (4u2LN)

482 472
I don't think to myself "Gee I want a tax break so i am going to spit out another kid!"



Who the fuck thinks that? My point was, of ALL the tax breaks to go
after, don't f'ing start with the one that benefits society the most.
I'd love a flat tax with no deductions, but until then,move along and
let my family have its pittance

Wow , your true colors show through.

Your last bit "...and let my family have its pitance" = which equals "leave my free shit alone!"

Posted by: exsanguine at December 10, 2012 12:55 PM (Pd1/b)

483 I haven't read the comments upthread, but it's worth pointing out that the problem, as with so many of ours, involves race.Dems have used blacks as stalking horses for giving stuff away, and thereby recruiting for the Free Shit Army. Any attempt to stop this triggers cries of "racism!"
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 10, 2012 12:52 PM (4u2LN)


Yes. Alas - this is the problem that none dare address. Most Americans are taught to look for scary, un-good racism under every rock and bush, and feel they must respond to any credible accusation thereof (and even most of the non-credible ones). With whites no longer a majority, the race card will become more and more effective for a while, until there are basically no more whites left in the power structure.Only once that has happened will they need to move on to a new theme.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 10, 2012 12:56 PM (Qqva6)

484 I don't think to myself "Gee I want a tax break so i am going to spit out another kid!"So I can get a 2500 deduction for a child that actually costs me 6-10K a year?!
__________

This is lazy micro-economic thinking that does not look to macro-economic realities. The macro effect of raising costs, no matter how small they are at the micro level, leads to less.

So a 2500 deduction may not have a direct effect on any specific individual couple when deciding to have chilrdent, but it does have a societal effect of less children. It may not be the best way or right way to encourage child-bearing, but it is silly to dismiss it as having no effect.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 12:58 PM (gmeXX)

485 You mean the actual NUMBER of local governments is a result of a faulty
attitude, or their costs? Because this nation began with a series of
local governments, and most - outside the cities - still practice
limited government.


I mean the number of programs, proposed and implemented at all levels, and their costs in terms of money and freedom.

And I'm terribly sorry, but very, very few governments at any level, most anywhere in the USA, practice anything that 50-years ago would have been remotely considered "limited" government. It's simply not the case anymore, and hasn't been the case for a long time.

Posted by: DocJ at December 10, 2012 12:58 PM (A5uiv)

486
With whites no longer a majority, the race card will become more and more effective for a while, until there are basically no more whites left in the power structure.Only once that has happened will they need to move on to a new theme.

New Theme: Finish off Whitey.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 12:58 PM (TULs6)

487 Posted by: Reactionary

I do get it. I want no deductions at all. See my above "lightsocket for the stupids" comment.

Everyone has to feel the tax pain, no one should pay nothing -- or think they do.

We wouldn't have so many stupid, ignorant gimmedats if so.

Posted by: exsanguine at December 10, 2012 12:58 PM (Pd1/b)

488 Gotta go, fellow-morons. Gotta pay some bills.

Cheers -

Posted by: DocJ at December 10, 2012 01:00 PM (A5uiv)

489 Anyone who thinks you ran rebuild after gutlessness and an utter lack of principle or leadership got us to this point is nuts.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 01:01 PM (i0vBR)

490 You fathered them, you take care of them.

I do. And I want to keep my money to do so.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 01:01 PM (9KqcB)

491
I don't think to myself "Gee I want a tax break so i am going to spit out another kid!"



Who the fuck thinks that?



Are you kidding? A lot of people think like that, probably a good fraction of the 47%. You think the Obamaphone lady does a cost-benefit analysis of her every decision? See my comment above. Most of the people on welfare think like that, which of course is why they're on welfare - they're none too bright.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 10, 2012 01:03 PM (4u2LN)

492 Wasn't one of Alinski's goals to overwhelm the system, put so many more on assistance and welfare that the system would collapse, thus creating the emergency that his progressive horde would use to fundamentally reform the country?

I'm thinking of not merely letting it burn, but what if we throw a little gas on that fire? Take, for example, the recent posts showing a single mother of 2 has to earn over $60K/yr before reaching the equivalent income of her welfare receipts. Were my wife and I to legally divorce we'd still have the same total income, but she would immediately transition to a single mother eligible for about $20K in assistance. My tax bracket would be the same, while hers would not only drop but she wouldn't even need to declare the money she gets from me!

It's like writing yourself a check for somebody else's money. If merely a fraction of the stable, tax-paying portion of the country did this, the system would collapse far sooner. Almost immediately.

Let it Burn.

- Max

Posted by: MaxDamage at December 10, 2012 01:03 PM (AQGVf)

493 And I'm terribly sorry, but very, very few governments at any level, most anywhere in the USA, practice anything that 50-years ago would have been remotely considered "limited" government. It's simply not the case anymore, and hasn't been the case for a long time.

Posted by: DocJ at December 10, 2012 12:58 PM (A5uiv)

You probably think that. Local governance isn't very sexy, even among the Right which purportedly advocates it. My township of 42,000 people does roads, police and little else.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 01:04 PM (9KqcB)

494 CJ, SH : You two are missing the whole "macro" point.

If everyone had skin in the game and felt the tax pain every year, month , week and day then we would have a more involved populace that wouldn't put up with the bullshit we have now.

They would demand to know why rates would have to rise
There wouldn't be anymore whipping sticks for the Dems to swing , offering this and that gift to a specific group of voters.
Voters would keep a keen eye on govt spending, debts, deficits because they will have some skin in the game and won't want their money wasted.

The "macro" view is a peoples govt rather than a oligarchy + serfs
The "macro" view is it would lead to less taxes overall

Thus CJ, you get to keep more of your money.


Posted by: exsanguine at December 10, 2012 01:05 PM (Pd1/b)

495 Your last bit "...and let my family have its pitance" = which equals "leave my free shit alone!"
Posted by: exsanguine at December 10, 2012 12:55 PM (Pd1/b)

Keeping my taxes = free shit. Got it, comrade.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 01:06 PM (9KqcB)

496 Finishing off Whitey is going to be a tad harder

Posted by: Iblis at December 10, 2012 01:08 PM (9221z)

497 " Parasites can't survive once they've killed the host."

This. Are conservatives willing to commit suicide in order to kill the worms that plague this nation? There has to be a better way.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 01:09 PM (i0vBR)

498 Posted by: exsanguine at December 10, 2012 01:05 PM (Pd1/b)

I get it dude. And like I said, I actually support a flat tax with no deductions.

But I also undrestand that the major driver of welfare state growth is children out of wedlock. Anything that makes child-bearing within marriage a more attractivecalculation, I'm for.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 01:09 PM (9KqcB)

499
Finishing off Whitey is going to be a tad harder

Um,.... not if Whitey sits there and waits until only 5 of him are left.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:11 PM (TULs6)

500
Because this nation began with a series of local governments, and most - outside the cities - still practice limited government.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 12:54 PM (9KqcB)


Bullshit.

For example, almost every township in the country has a recycling program or parks or midnight basketball or some other shit paid for by block grants or some other source of money from a larger political entity. Getting money from the county, state or federal government to pay for doesn't equate to practicing limited government.

Open your fucking eyes and take a look around.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 10, 2012 01:11 PM (tOkJB)

501 I am for a flat tax- no deductions whatsoever. Again, the tax code and it's deductions are simply a way for politicians to buy votes and defeat other candidates.

No mortgage deduction(yes, I have a mortgage). It would be good to not have realtors convincing people they can buy more house than they can afford because the "get a tax deduction, so it really doesn't cost you this much every month.

No child care deductions. Sorry, but if you decide to have kids, then you need to plan for the cost of their care.

No marriage deductions, child support deductions, etc. This won't discourage people from getting married(because there will not be any incentive financially to stay single) and it takes a lot of the incentive out of the gay marriage issue.

Charity deductions....mmm that's a tough one. Although charities would then be forced to demonstrate their value to garner donations, instead of the ever expanding 501c3 dodge that organizations use to justify their existence.

Corporate deductions? A flat tax would eliminate corporations from making decisions based on taxes and more on what makes good business sense.

Good article on this...
http://mercatus.org/publication/fixing-tax-code-key-principles-successful-reform

Posted by: Jen at December 10, 2012 01:12 PM (xECMg)

502
Make that:

Getting money from the county, state or federal government to pay for something doesn't equate to practicing limited government.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 10, 2012 01:13 PM (tOkJB)

503
But I also undrestand that the major driver of welfare state growth is children out of wedlock. Anything that makes child-bearing within marriage a more attractivecalculation, I'm for.

What if the federal government wants to regulate family planning? Then they can make sure only married people have kids?

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:13 PM (TULs6)

504 Sorry link didn't work in my last post
http://tinyurl.com/agbg8ww

Posted by: Iblis at December 10, 2012 01:14 PM (9221z)

505
This. Are conservatives willing to commit suicide in order to kill the worms that plague this nation? There has to be a better way.

Poison.

The parasites get worse until they kill the host. Or, the host consumes a poison he is more resistant to than the parasites, reckoning they will drop first.

You don't have to kill yourself. But you do have to be willing to poison yourself and survive.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:16 PM (TULs6)

506 I don't believe in Santa Claus.
Let it Burn.
Sooner rather than later.

Posted by: Liliana at December 10, 2012 01:20 PM (wJ0n6)

507 "Ah, I love this part of the argument - the "if only we had The One True Conservative Hope making The Case" salve. I've used it myself, plenty of times. It has the lovely, narcotic effect of absolving society of any responsibility and boils the entire problem down to one of 'messaging.'"

The 70s were much worse than now, and we turned it around by nominating an effective communicator who won the largest landslide in history. They had Woodstock. We have Burning Man. They had MLK. We have Al Sharpton. Back then women burned their bras. Now they dress up as pussies. JFK was a martyr. BHO is a hustler. It's embarrassing that the right is getting its ass kicked so bad by this ragtag bunch of mental degenerates known as the left. Really, gay marriage is the civil rights movement of our time? It makes me seriously ill just thinking about how much the GOP sucks right now, and yes, it is messaging.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 01:20 PM (i0vBR)

508
That is in fact the treatment for parasites. Some parasites may have poisons that don't poison the host at all, lucky you. Others do not. Same principle either way.

Same idea behind chemo and radiation therapy as well.

Stress the system in the hope that the healthy parts can better survive and recover from what kills off the sickly bits, then the poison can be stopped.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:22 PM (TULs6)

509 Open your fucking eyes and take a look around.
Posted by: Ed Anger at December 10, 2012 01:11 PM (tOkJB)

Yeah, I'm actually involved in local govenrment. "Midnight basketball"?? Come on, man. There is more to America than the Big Cities. A lot more.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 01:22 PM (9KqcB)

510 What if the federal government wants to regulate family planning? Then they can make sure only married people have kids?

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:13 PM (TULs6)

Heh. I love it when "conservatives" see Washington as the solution to a problem brought on the culture battles we were too good to fight.

But, sure. If this is going to be about Washington, let's go for it.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 01:25 PM (9KqcB)

511
The 70s were much worse than now, and we turned it around by nominating an effective communicator who won the largest landslide in history.

You turned around shit. Check out federal outlays before and after Reagan. This country is still on the course it was on before Reagan, and still on the course Reagan left it on.

Because no magical hero will come riding in to save you. 1 man cannot change government and society writ large.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:26 PM (TULs6)

512 I am for a flat tax- no deductions whatsoever.

Me too.

Posted by: CJ at December 10, 2012 01:27 PM (9KqcB)

513
Heh. I love it when "conservatives" see Washington as the solution to a problem brought on the culture battles we were too good to fight.

But, sure. If this is going to be about Washington, let's go for it.


I don't even know what that means. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:29 PM (TULs6)

514
It's embarrassing that the right is getting its ass kicked so bad by this ragtag bunch of mental degenerates known as the left.

Well, that's what you get when the Right decides it's only hope is to support a leftist party (Republicans). They're going to continue getting their ass kicked because that's their job. They're patsies and they're cool with that.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:32 PM (TULs6)

515 Poison.

The parasites get worse until they kill the host. Or, the host consumes a poison he is more resistant to than the parasites, reckoning they will drop first.

You don't have to kill yourself. But you do have to be willing to poison yourself and survive.
Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:16 PM (TULs6)

How about adding more fiber to your diet and cutting out dairy, sugar and fat and getting a prescription from your doctor? As with medicine, there are plenty of reasonable solutions to what ails this country, but it takes responsible behavior to ensure the prescription works, like most patients who disregard their doctor's advice, Americans do not want to give up their unhealthy lifestyle of reckless spending. But let's not pretend the people advocating drinking poison are doctors or any authority who should be entrusted with power.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 01:33 PM (i0vBR)

516
there are plenty of reasonable solutions to what ails this country, but it takes responsible behavior to ensure the prescription works

The very thing we don't have, or else we wouldn't need it so much.

Americans do not want to give up their unhealthy lifestyle of reckless spending.

See, now you're getting it. They don't want to, so they won't.

But let's not pretend the people advocating drinking poison are doctors

Now we're stretching the analogy too far. What?

If you think you're going to get a lifestyle change out of America voluntarily, you're insane. I'm telling you plainly many of the 'medicines' doctors give out for parasites (and cancer) are in fact poisons meant to cull the illness.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:37 PM (TULs6)

517 Entropy, if you see Obama as the second coming of Teagan, then I cannot reason with you. That is an argument I would gone to Kos have, if I were interested in having it.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 01:38 PM (i0vBR)

518
How about adding more fiber to your diet and cutting out dairy, sugar and fat and getting a prescription from your doctor?

Yeah, that kills tapeworms. Moar fiber. Who's not a doctor?

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:39 PM (TULs6)

519
the second coming of Teagan

Who?

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:40 PM (TULs6)

520
That is an argument I would gone to Kos have, if I were interested in having it.

Um, LOL. No, that is an argument you'll tell yourself you're having to avoid having the one you're actually having.

If Teagan is supposed to be Reagan I really have no idea where you come up with that shit.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:42 PM (TULs6)

521 Even though I have been against third parties, I think the GOP is over. Conservatives never get anything close to what they want in either presidential candidates or policy. Conservatives lose whether the GOP is in power or the dems. Really who has more to lose? The Boehner/McConnell GOP? Or conservatives, who are ignored either way? Plus my local GOP is being overrun with Paulbots, one of which has an "Obama is from Kenya" sign up in his yard.

Posted by: The Poster Formerly Known as Mr. Barky at December 10, 2012 01:43 PM (qwK3S)

522 "Now we're stretching the analogy too far."

You can't have it both ways. You are like the parent who catches their child smoking and then locks the child in the closet with a carton of cigarettes and tells them not to come out until the whole thing is smoked. It serves you and your abusive brand of parenting right if your child dies and your whole fucking house burns to the ground, because you should never have been allowed to have kids to begin with.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 01:44 PM (i0vBR)

523
It serves you and your abusive brand of parenting right if your child dies and your whole fucking house burns to the ground, because you should never have been allowed to have kids to begin with.

Umm... OK. You appear to have lost contact with your sanity. Did I break you?

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:45 PM (TULs6)

524 "If Teagan is supposed to be Reagan I really have no idea where you come up with that shit."

An obvious typo on a phone. Now who's having ridiculous arguments.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 01:46 PM (i0vBR)

525
Plus my local GOP is being overrun with Paulbots, one of which has an "Obama is from Kenya" sign up in his yard.

Where do you live?

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:46 PM (TULs6)

526
"I don't believe in Santa Claus."
Let Santa's Workshop burn.

Posted by: Ernie McCracken at December 10, 2012 01:48 PM (ZETiK)

527
An obvious typo on a phone. Now who's having ridiculous arguments.

Was that a yes or a no? Where do you come up with me saying Obama is the second coming of Reagan? I don't know what the hell you meant by "Teagan" because it's ridiculous either way. So... still you.

I'm not calling your typo ridiculous. You've just, before my eyes no less, completely detatched yourself from any discussion we were having and launched into incoherant wookie arguments.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:48 PM (TULs6)

528 From a cultural perspective, there is stuff already produced that includes conservative principles. The problem is that cultural stuff is beneath the right's chattering class, so they don't talk about it. The lefties, assuming they noticed, have no reason to see anything. Anybody see the Hunger Games?A rich and degenerate Capital City screwing the rest of thecountry. A Bug's Life? What if the grasshoppers are not evil capitalists but are tax collectors who steal their percentage from the ants by brute force. There is stuff out there, just nobody makes the connection.

Posted by: The Poster Formerly Known as Mr. Barky at December 10, 2012 01:48 PM (qwK3S)

529 Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:45 PM (TULs6)

Says the guy who says, " Sometimes you need to drink a little poison." After you, Rev. Jones.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 01:48 PM (i0vBR)

530 Currently in Rural Washington State.

Posted by: The Poster Formerly Known as Mr. Barky at December 10, 2012 01:49 PM (qwK3S)

531
Says the guy who says, " Sometimes you need to drink a little poison." After you, Rev. Jones.

LOL. You have no argument so you're just gonna troll me now?

I'm sorry I've evidently touched off some childhood trauma of yours. Apparently I remind you of your father who used to burn you with cigarettes or something.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:51 PM (TULs6)

532
Come now Tattoo.

Do you really think upping your fiber intake can cure tapeworms?

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:52 PM (TULs6)

533 "Let everyone keep more of their money. I'm all for people keeping their money. Choosing to have children doesn't make you any more or less entitled to your own shit."

this.



Posted by: Shoey at December 10, 2012 01:53 PM (m6OUa)

534 "You've just, before my eyes no less, completely detatched yourself from any discussion we were having and launched into incoherant wookie arguments."

"You turned around shit. Check out federal outlays before and after Reagan. This country is still on the course it was on before Reagan, and still on the course Reagan left it on."

"Well, that's what you get when the Right decides it's (sic) only hope is to support a leftist party (Republicans)."

Please, continue with this magnificent train of thought.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 01:55 PM (i0vBR)

535
It's pathetic that the same hard-rightists who cost us the Senate the last two elections (cf. O'Donnell, Akin, etc.), are now claiming that retreat is no option.
Talk about your permenant losers...

Posted by: Sanity at December 10, 2012 01:55 PM (RVjIg)

536
"Son, you have cancer. We're going to have to bombard you with deadly radiation in the hope that the sick parts will die first, so maybe the healthy parts can recover."

"Oh noes! That's MEAN! If he has cancer we should give him ice cream and hold his hand!"

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:56 PM (TULs6)

537 Look at California. Even Californians hate what's happening in California. But they still will NEVER vote Republican.

Let it Burn is my preference, because making people pay for what they ask govt to provide is the only hope they will see the stupidity of their ways. But it's just a hope, not a likelihood. And it's also worth noting that things can get pretty bad for a lot longer than you think without people learning anything. So buckle up. It will get very ugly before it gets better. And it may not get better ever.

Every society has a lifecycle. None lasts forever. We may just be at that point. Bread and circuses and all that. Even our founding fathers knew that. At least Ben Franklin did: “Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." It's the culture, stupid.

Posted by: Cornfed at December 10, 2012 01:57 PM (Hoy9u)

538
If you're just gonna troll me I can just troll you right back.

Domestic spending exploded under Reagan. The expansion of the State continued apace under Reagan. You have some kind of emotional investment going on, you want to continue pretending like some whole fiber and switching to diet coke can fix all this.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:58 PM (TULs6)

539 L.I.B. is the ultimate in going Gault.

L.I.B is the rational choice.

Considering the reality of that cesspool on the Potomac, the free stuff crowd, and the Marxist agenda to destroy the west via eliminating economic Liberty, there is no other method that is possible outside of armed violent redress. Let it burn still may not be the remedy after it is all said and done. There is an awful lot of people who can not and or refuse to see the truth of whats coming down the pike, and the unintended consequences of pulling the rug out from under them.
Not that I care in a way that matters.

But if it let it burn is not tried now, what is, will continue unabated till it does all burn.

Lets get it over with.
I'm sick and tired fed up with the theft of my hard won prosperity to support millions of fucking selfish pikers.

Up their arses!

Posted by: Mt Top Patriot at December 10, 2012 01:58 PM (NGuNB)

540 Wow, to think of the chutzpah Bill Ayers and his buddies had to take on the capitalist system and devote their lives to changing it. They were willing to go to jail, to demonstrate, to work, work, work to destroy our system. Forty years of working day in and day out to capture academia, the media, Hollywood, and to a large extent, the culture. Now that's dedication. Breitbart had it. I wonder why we can't match that?

Posted by: Salt Lick at December 10, 2012 01:58 PM (GTOhs)

541 Well, that's what you get when the Right decides it's only hope is to support a leftist party (Republicans). They're going to continue getting their ass kicked because that's their job. They're patsies and they're cool with that.
Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 01:32 PM (TULs6)

Speaking of ass-kicking and perpetual defeat, let's talk about big 'L' Libertarians, shall we? How's that 2% you and yours manage to eke out of the electorate every few years working out? And did you stay home on election day this year as all Libertarians threaten to do if the GOP doesn't cater to your interests? I thought so.

Well, on the bright side, you've got Johnson, anyway. His soaring intellect, sheer animal magnetism and irresistable charisma should get you over the top next time, for sure.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 02:00 PM (vtiE6)

542
L.I.B. is the ultimate in going Gault.

Ooh lala french spelling? Le Monsieur Gault. Oui oui.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:01 PM (TULs6)

543 So where is the T-Shirt?
Add this to it... "End the White-Chocolate Rapture: Let It Burn!"

Posted by: Auggie at December 10, 2012 02:02 PM (A5uiv)

544 There are many different parasites besides tapeworms, and treatment would depend on the size and length of the worm, but praziquantel (Biltricide) and albendazole (Albenza) most likely and, yes, increased fiber in your diet to move it through your system faster. I sure as fuck wouldn't 't drink poison.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 02:02 PM (i0vBR)

545
How's that 2% you and yours manage to eke out of the electorate every few years working out?

About as well as the GOP is for you.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:03 PM (TULs6)

546
I sure as fuck wouldn't drink poison understand analogies.

FIFY.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:04 PM (TULs6)

547 We lost this fight when we lost the schools, the news media, and lost our ability to stop losing when we let a bunch of Progressive Lites "represent" us in Washington.

This is a runaway train, it's going to crash, because that's what runaway trains do. Let It Burn is about taking in that knowledge with a resounding "meh" and reading a book while everyone else runs to the front of the train to try to pound on the door to the engine car and scream at the madman running the show.

Posted by: Cato at December 10, 2012 02:05 PM (dTXZf)

548 #28

Unique experiments are no better than anecdotes in science. For the results to be validate an experiment must be repeatable. The time has come.

There is a lot of nonsense we don't have to bother with this time, especially all of the complications introduced by slavery. That streamlines things a bit.

Posted by: epobirs at December 10, 2012 02:06 PM (kcfmt)

549 "538
If you're just gonna troll me I can just troll right back."

Lol who's trolling whom? "The right is a bunch if leftists." Lol. What flavor Kool aid are you gonna drink to "heal" yourself?

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 02:06 PM (i0vBR)

550 About as well as the GOP is for you.
Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:03 PM (TULs6)

No, sorry, unlike your beloved fringe group disguised as a political party, the GOP actually wins elections. 2010 ring any bells for you?
This 'Let It Burn' shit is a recipe for fringe irrelevance, so I can understand its libertarian appeal. Stick with what you know, I guess.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 02:07 PM (vtiE6)

551 Ooooh. Burned. Someone let me burn. How horrible. What a psycho leftist.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:08 PM (TULs6)

552
No, sorry, unlike your beloved fringe group disguised as a political party, the GOP actually wins elections.

And then ramps up government spending and explodes the size of government.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:09 PM (TULs6)

553
Stick with what you know, I guess.

Oh... right. That's not what you're doing? Been working so well for you. After all, you WON a bunch.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:10 PM (TULs6)

554 Analogy Noun
A comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
A correspondence or partial similarity.

Your solution for the country is an "analogy" for curing the human body of parasites. First, you have to kill the host. Wrong. Ok, you just drink a little poison. Even dumber. But the underlying logic is this is what the country needs to do, while your analogy is built upon a faulty premise.

You don't understand analogies any better than Alanis Morisette gets irony. You see what I just did there?

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 02:10 PM (i0vBR)

555 Oh... right. That's not what you're doing? Been working so well for you. After all, you WON a bunch.
Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:10 PM (TULs6)

When compared to your ideology and platform, yes. Maybe libertarians would fare better in elections if you guys would steer clear of conspiracy theories involving black helicopters and secret spider-goat DNA hybridization experiments conducted by the Illuminati. Just a thought.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 02:15 PM (vtiE6)

556 "No marriage deductions, child support deductions, etc. This won't discourage people from getting married(because there will not be any incentive financially to stay single) and it takes a lot of the incentive out of the gay marriage issue."

I absolutely 100% agree. Mind if I steal this?

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 02:20 PM (i0vBR)

557 testing ... did I get banned?

Posted by: joe in michigan at December 10, 2012 02:21 PM (3R8wQ)

558 Nope .. but looks like some comments did ... oh well.

Posted by: joe in michigan at December 10, 2012 02:22 PM (3R8wQ)

559 Look, people, the country is already burning. We're just waiting for someone to open the wrong fiscal door and supply sufficient oxygen for the fire to really take off.

Posted by: Blake at December 10, 2012 02:23 PM (e+hz7)

560
When compared to your ideology and platform, yes.

tinyurl.com/cg6jolr


In other words: Yup.Compared to my ideology and platform you've accomplished shitloads.

If that's your ideology and platform, own it. Stop pretending to be a small government minarchist conservative.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:23 PM (TULs6)

561 test

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:23 PM (TULs6)

562 No idea how that happened.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:24 PM (TULs6)

563 CJ, SH : You two are missing the whole "macro" point


I am missing no macro point.

Posted by: SH at December 10, 2012 02:26 PM (gmeXX)

564 For America, as it is today, voting twice for this fiscally irresponsible leftist transformation that seeks to make the country a nation dependents, the best course of action is to step aside and let it hit bottom. The sooner the better. Then Rebuild, with lessons learned. And yes we did and can build it.

Lately every time Bill Kristol offers an opinion he becomes more and more orange, like Charlie Crist.

Posted by: gracepmc at December 10, 2012 02:26 PM (rznx3)

565
Tattoo, you haven't even been trying for the last hour.

Lame snark is all you got. You're the one ducking out of a real argument. Can you make any semblance of a point? I'm doubtful.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:26 PM (TULs6)

566 If that's your ideology and platform, own it. Stop pretending to be a small government minarchist conservative.
Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:23 PM (TULs6)

Your link led to a Reason online web-a-thon. Thanks, I guess. Oh, and yeah, to your point: I never pretended to be a minarchist conservative in theRothbardian sense. His is a rigid,puritannical construct, as Utopian as Marxism in its way, and equally doomed to fail in the real world. But hey, no worries, I'm sure you'll fit right in with the Conservative Purity Brigade.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 02:33 PM (vtiE6)

567
When I click on it I get an article about defecits. I can't help it if your internet is broken. Closet the webathon and hit back dude.

You want I should use gotomypc and I can help navigate for you?

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:35 PM (TULs6)

568
I'm sure you'll fit right in with the Conservative Purity Brigade.

Riiighhht. You should find that link. Seriously, purity? Heh. I'd be happy if we were going in the right direction. I don't give a fuck what the increments are, so long as it moves in the right direction. Or even just stands still.

But Republicans? Yeah, not for me.

You can be bitchy all day long people. When the shit burns down, don't say I didn't tell you to start a garden. And don't expect none of my food.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:37 PM (TULs6)

569
Tattoo knows that as long as she eats more fiber John Boner will come and save her.

Where she's gonna get that fiber, that's another question.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:38 PM (TULs6)

570 Let it burn =Arson/talk of arson/domestic terrorism=careful.

Lots more flexibility after the election.

Just sayin.

Posted by: nip at December 10, 2012 02:44 PM (11Tdq)

571 Actually, Let It Burn is just another name for Atlas Shrugged. Same concept.

Posted by: Ayn Rand at December 10, 2012 02:44 PM (7eSEM)

572
Y.O.L.I.B.O.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at December 10, 2012 02:46 PM (n8LUb)

573 You can be bitchy all day long people. When the shit burns down, don't say I didn't tell you to start a garden. And don't expect none of my food.
Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:37 PM (TULs6)

Have a garden of my own, thanks. You tend to yours, I'll tend to mine. Meanwhile, beware the Illuminati and stay away from spider-goat hybrids and black helicopters and all of that other whackjob Alex Jones conspiracy bullshit that makes Libertarians so attractive to the electorate.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 02:49 PM (vtiE6)

574
Meanwhile, beware the Illuminati and stay away from spider-goat hybrids and black helicopters and all of that other whackjob Alex Jones conspiracy bullshit that makes Libertarians so attractive to the electorate.

Buuurrrrnned! He totally let it burn. Epic burn.

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:54 PM (TULs6)

575
Your mother is fat!

Hah! Burned! Score 1 Team Red HOOOAH!

Posted by: Entropy at December 10, 2012 02:55 PM (TULs6)

576 You guys all talk some smack but do you know what Let It Burn really means? It means a lot of nice people are going get hurt. What makes you think the grasshoppers are going to just die without paying back as many of the people they think are responsible for their trouble as possible? In the 1968 riots my mother was walking down the street when a neighbor pulled her inside just before a molotov cocktail exploded next to the house. My mother was minding her own business, just trying to get home but in an instant she could've been killed if it hadn't been for the neighbor. You are not going to be able to sit back and just watch. We are all going down together.

Posted by: daisy at December 10, 2012 02:56 PM (WQsd/)

577 Let it burn can easily be defined as "I won't even bother to piss on it". It's already on fire. Won't shed a tear as those who stoke the fire get burned.

Posted by: Yenober at December 10, 2012 03:02 PM (+edcN)

578 We are all going down together.
Posted by: daisy at December 10, 2012 02:56 PM (WQsd/)

Agreed. That bit about 'rebuilding from the ashes' in the Let It Burn scenario reeks of wishcasting. There are hard times coming. Either we pull together or we fall apart.

Posted by: troyriser at December 10, 2012 03:08 PM (vtiE6)

579 Damn day job. I never get to these articles until 3-hours and, um, **<scroll up>**578 comments later. Who is even going to bother reading what I might have to contribute?

Contrary toPastafarian (t December 10, 2012 12:18 PM (ffv4E) ), voting "present" shows that we came, we saw, we were unimpressed. Nobody - including the Progressives, Liberals, Democrats, and their media enablers - nobody has attempted to hang ObamaCare on the Republicans. And they have long since stopped trying to do so for the 'bipartisanship' votes on Stimulus I. (It was, after all, only the Maine sisters who broke ranks on that one, and one of them is leaving.)

Voting 'present' most assuredly is NOT running away; it is merely refusing to enable that travesty - exactly as DrewM is describing. Voting 'present' is a slap in the face to the Democrats: they either have to vote for it, or show to the world that athe opposition to Obama's fiscal cliff demands is bi-partisan. Obama might not have to worry about it, but it stinks to high Heaven in the home towns.

And voting 'present' is a nice little present to an Illinois State Senator who was quite known for doing just that. Ah, if only we LIBs had a media that could effectly play the optics of it!

Posted by: Lessons from the Ceramic Throne at December 10, 2012 03:21 PM (ze9yk)

580 Like Jim DeMint told Beck, we are have already gone over the fiscal cliff. The only question is what will the landing look like?

Posted by: Valiant at December 10, 2012 03:39 PM (aFxlY)

581 The problem is that that neither the Republicans nor the Democrats want the spending cuts of the fiscal cliff scenario to kick in. In reality the only Washington is arguing about is how much to raise taxes.

At this point the only sensible thing to do is grab one's fiddle and watch while the nation burns.

Posted by: GhostShip at December 10, 2012 03:46 PM (sbaXF)

582 @440, yes we can turn this around. All of the things that you mentioned were changed during my lifetime (I was born in 1951). There are other cultures that have managed to keep together under much worse circumstances than ours.

We could start by getting the Feds out of the school system, especially Obama's latest plan. The states legally have power and 30 of them are run by Republicans. If we can get the states back in charge of the services that they are supposed to control, then we can start to turn it around. Changing the media is harder but not impossible. If Axelrod is calling for more young people to go into journalism, then why aren't we doing the same? People can change their political outlook if they are exposed to ideas that resonate with them. This is not impossible.

Posted by: notsothoreau at December 10, 2012 04:01 PM (5HBd1)

583 Posted by: Lessons from the Ceramic Throne at December 10, 2012 03:21 PM (ze9yk)

i'm still here, and I like your comment.

also, Entropy thanks for fighting the good fight, i'm not offically a big "L" libertarian, but i get closer and closer every day as I witness the craven, hypocracy of traditional big "R" republicans.

Posted by: Shoey at December 10, 2012 04:08 PM (m6OUa)

584 50 All you're advocating is a party split and a retreat into irrelevance.


Look around you - if you're a Republican, you're dead in the center of irrelevance RIGHT NOW. They know, no matter what happens, they will be blamed.

Until you embrace principles that define you, rather than downplay them and chase the hot new thang that you think will elect you (which only leads to more liberalism) you will remain Dem Lite, irrelevant and will not be voted for.

The Republicans either purge the dead weight, or we voters purge the Republicans. Choose.

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 10, 2012 04:21 PM (v2B2W)

585 Wrong. If you're a Republican, you control the House, and if you're a Libertarian, you have jack shit and should build your own party instead of attacking the one closest to your ideals.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 10, 2012 04:47 PM (i0vBR)

586 I will no longer be boogeyman-ed into voting for a Republican that's one or two principles shy of being a Democrat. I want to hear and see, demonstated, a canidate that supports and advances strong fiscal conservatism and limited govt. One that tells harsh truths and isn't in pander mode. PERIOD. I will not be guilt-tripped into voting for a candidate that shares 90% of their values with a Democrat except for one or two "conservative" bones they throw my way to pacify me.

Wake up - the Dems won. We lost. Badly. What was done to the nation in the past 4 years will pale in comparison to the next 4 and we begin to see the effects (Obamacare, for starters). Ya can't scare me with possible doom and gloom scenarios "if the Dems win". They won, and we're already there. Put up a fiscal conservative or I stay home. EARN my support, don't expect it.

And there isn't much of anything that can be done, RIGHT NOW, to stem what's hit us. Any real change would take decades. Ignore the Roves and the Morris' and the other yapping Muppets on Fox that sold you a line of crap that Romney had a clear victory. Teach your children. Hide your money. Prepare.

Let it burn is simply that - it's too late to put out the fire.

What do you propose as a counter? A committee? A strongly worded note? A political compromise where we win nothing? How do you propose to plead your case with political opposition that are certified psychopaths that could care less what you think? How do you reason a solution when reason is ignored or attacked?

Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 10, 2012 05:00 PM (v2B2W)

587 At first I thought the "Let it burn" meme was a spiteful knee jerk reaction to the disastrous election results. Upon furthng pondering though it's easy to see that it is in fact already on fire and the "solutions" our Democrat and Democrat-lite (GOP) leaders will come up with will simply add fuel to that fire and there is NOTHING that I or any other conservative can do about it except prepare for the consequences our fellow sheeple have voted us into.

A year or so ago I thought the prepper movement was simply overzealous disaster mongers looking to sell stuff to people who will never need those items. Now I no longer feel that way and find myself wishing I had a lot more items stored.

Posted by: Daniel at December 10, 2012 05:07 PM (lx63h)

588 The root of the problem is too much taxation. I'd like to see people quit paying taxes and see what the gov does then. Those earning money get to keep it. Those that aren't starve. It's amazing what kind of a motivator that is.

Posted by: Nathan VanDeWater at December 10, 2012 05:10 PM (TdAWc)

589 Damn strait, it's time to let it burn, and HELP it burn.

They commies can have their little Stalinist dreams for the reconstruction - those thoughts will be met with our guns. The scum-swilling goons that serve them have friends, family, and property amongst us, and just like we see in Mexico, it won't take very many "examples" before they are unwilling to carry out the bidding of D.C.

Posted by: RogerA at December 10, 2012 05:16 PM (YR5pr)

590 <i>We need to start disassociating conservatism from the GOP.</i>

this. +1.

GOP, RIP.

Long live the Tea Party.

Posted by: Paul A'Barge at December 10, 2012 05:16 PM (KPhhr)

591
Some people just want to watch the world burn.
Sometimes, the world deserves to burn.-------G-d

Posted by: It WILL Burn at December 10, 2012 05:34 PM (1YIWv)

592 Well said and I could not agree more. The sooner we get it over with, the better. It'sless painfulto rip the band aid off than to peel it slowly.

Posted by: BurnBabyBurn at December 10, 2012 05:48 PM (1qvHS)

593 We’ve tried to save the country from the folly of expanding liberalism
and the country said, “we don’t want to be saved”. Let It Burn just
means letting them have what they want and rebuilding later.

Before we "let them have what they want", wouldn't it benefit us to first understand what it is that they want?

Here, have a gander at what they are shooting for. After digesting that, think about how deeply something like that could corkscrew us into the ground... and what it would take to recover from it and "rebuild".

http://tinyurl.com/autfw54

Posted by: VekTor at December 10, 2012 06:23 PM (N7DZ0)

594 Brother, I think you hit the nail on the head. I do hope the GOP passes the Bowles-Simpson legislation in the house, and then let the Dems decided what they want to do. However, it looks like John "Sherbert" Boehner is not even trying this tactic. So I'm almost with you on let it burn.

Posted by: Midnight Clad at December 10, 2012 06:33 PM (ZvneP)

595 No one could have said it better, putting my thoughts to words like that Drew. Maybe we should start a blog dedicated to like thinkers.

Posted by: Talibill at December 10, 2012 06:51 PM (tdZGt)

596 I suppose in the interim you could hide in plain sight and just call yourself a L.I.B.E.R.A.L.

None of the lefties need to know that it stands for "Let It Burn. Eventually, Reality Annihilates Leftism."

Posted by: VekTor at December 10, 2012 07:09 PM (N7DZ0)

597 LIB!!!

Posted by: jwillmoney at December 10, 2012 08:13 PM (fL5R8)

598 Yes..Yes..Yes

It makes me FAP..FAP..FAP!

Whoever wrote this thread understands the basic concept of how to actually fix the problem. Let it Burn!


Posted by: Walter Sobchak at December 10, 2012 08:14 PM (uis79)

599 L.I.B.E.R.A.L

Let
It
Burn
Every
Rat
Ass
LibTard

Posted by: Walter Sobchak at December 10, 2012 08:16 PM (uis79)

600 "Let it burn"

Indeed. I'm closing my business by the end of the first quarter next year. I'm done. the 2% of the evil rich as Barry calls them are smaller businesses that earn about 250-750K revenues, they will be hammered massively. Many will NOT survive, mine included, most are S corps filing as individuals.

Done. "Let it Burn", Just go John Gault. Let the crash come faster, there is really no way around it now. In CA they had a 27% decrease in state revenues just in 1 quarter after passing prop 30, gee they're just figuring out that taxing the productive is only going bring in less revenues, did they really think "spreading the wealth" would create more jobs/wealth??

Posted by: johnc_ex-dem at December 10, 2012 10:32 PM (3Kxux)

601 356 If we've reached the point that we choose to be indifferent of the outcome then we are enablers. Our indifference will lead to far worse things.
Though I think if we choose this path we can never be truly Indifferent only Ambivalent which certainly makes our inaction that much worse.
When our main voices are crying out let it burn I can only think of two choices: 1 give up or 2 revolt and rebuild.
Letting it burn will not result in any pieces left to pick up. Those who are in power will solidify it regardless of the outcome in the end. They and their successors will remain.
I take no pleasure in watching it burn and I take no solace in thinking there will be salvage in the end. The country is not a tangible thing it is an amalgamation of the greatest ideas Man had at one time and was given the opportunity to fine tune and perfect them. This is what we are watching burn and through our selfish Ambivalence and lack of will to fight will cost more than our "Voices" think.
Confrontation is inevitable. We must choose to act. We cannot sit idly by. Either we engage in the political process or we follow up our calls to let it burn with a serious discussion of corporeal action.
Our indifference is tantamount to evil, our Ambivalence is choosing to be evil.

Posted by: kzintius at December 10, 2012 11:27 PM (vj58q)

602 @601

You live in nation of idiots....Let it Burn!

Posted by: Walter Sobchak at December 10, 2012 11:32 PM (uis79)

603 Let them burn.

Do your best to overburden the welfare system instead of supporting it.

Do your best to send the whole thing into recession.

When they want to raise taxes on the rich, double taxes on the rich...and focus on the blue staters, the wealthy leftists who're responsible for the mess.

It is time to screw the blue. We should systematically punish leftists, economically. If they resist, we should paint them as protecting their rich elitist friends and refusing to raise taxes on themselves.

1. Eliminate the deduction from federal taxes that's allowed for state taxes, which amounts to a massive red-to-blue wealth transfer. Allow it only for the first $100,000 of income, to give relief to red state middle class.

2. Allow the home mortgage deduction only for the first $150,000 of a mortgage. This will sock blue states hardest since the home values are so much higher in cities.

3. Eliminate the Hollywood Tax Deduction; impose 20% excise tax on all entertainment media products for domestic sales AND an additional 20% sales tax on all entertainment media sales outside the U.S. Let Hollywood learn that their domestic market is the only market they can hope to make money in, and that they won't be making nearly so much as before. (Also, they'll suffer a lot of overseas piracy. GOOD. Photocopy every leftist publication and duplicate every Rage Against The Machine song and put it on the Internet while you're at it: Why should those who oppose free enterprise get wealthy from it? Let them reap zero profit from their labor, just as they try so hard to do for ours.)

4. Require charitable foundations to use funds they administer instead of keeping them forever to pay the salaries and fund the pet programs of leftists. To achieve this: On January 1st of each year, impose a 50% tax on funds which have remained unused if the calendar year in which they were originally acquired was more than 3 years prior. Example: A $160,000 gift is received by Foundation X in December 2009. It remains unused. On January 1 of 2013, a tax of $80,000 is levied on that amount. If the remaining $80,000 goes unused, a tax of $40,000 will be levied on January 1 of 2014. If Foundation X never uses the funds, it'll lose $20,000 in 2015, $10,000 in 2016, and so on.

That way these foundations won't be what they currently are: Sinecure for unemployed leftists.

5. Impose a tax on every dollar of income over $100,000 on administrators and tenured academics at universities and colleges that receive Federal funds, identical to half the percentile of universities and colleges that receive less Federal funds. For example, an academic who makes $180,000 a year at a school which receives more Federal funds than 80% of all other schools will be taxed at a rate of 40% (half the percentile) on $80,000 (the amount he earns above the first $100,000) and will therefore pay an additional $20,000 in income taxes. (These funds are not intended to enrich tenured academics but to offset student costs. To the extent the funds go towards salaries they will be lost.) The value of benefits is included in the salary calculation.

6. Punish the revolving door between Wall Street and D.C., between K Street and D.C., between high-paying media or news jobs and D.C.: For the first seven years after leaving public office (either elected or appointed or confirmed by an elected official) if your income is higher than it was while you were in that office, and it isn't a new public office, then you must pay a % of the difference as taxes. The % starts at 70% the first year, drops to 60% the second year, 50% the third, 40% the fourth, 30% the fifth, 20% the sixth, and 10% the seventh.

7. Excise Tax on Executive Compensation: As a general rule CEOs vote for leftists these days...and anyone who votes for leftists, in a moral universe, ought to be impoverished. So: Impose an excise tax on Executive Compensation that's equal to 1/4th of the percentile of their compensation, so that low-paid (4th-percentile) CEOs only get an additional 1% tax, but high-paid (96th-percentile) CEOs get an additional 24% tax. If this hits red-staters much, limit it only to apply to executive officers of companies with a market cap or valuation in excess of 10 million dollars.

8. As a general rule, big corporations are more leftist than small companies recently founded by entrepreneurs. And as a general rule, big companies offer their customers crappier customer service. And as a general rule, big companies are more regularly involved in buying politicians in order to get corporate welfare, or to be involved in writing the regulations for their own industry...and the outcome of this process is inevitably a kind of economic "incumbent protection": The companies that have already gotten big "pull up the ladder" behind themselves and write regulations too punishing for small up-and-coming competitors to cope with, but which the already-big companies are big enough to cope with through economies of scale.

SOLUTION: A kind of Progressive Income Tax on companies: For each company, each year, discover its (a.) valuation percentile, (b.) employee hours percentile, and (c.) income percentile. Component (a.) is the percent of other companies in the U.S. with lower valuations. Component (b.) is the percent of other companies in the U.S. employing workers for fewer man-hours. And, Component (c.) is the percent of other companies in the U.S. that made less profit that year. The income tax percentage on that company's income, for that year, will be equal to 1/10th of the Valuation Percentile, plus 1/10th of the Hours Percentile, plus 1/10th of the Income Percentile. All fractions are rounded up, for each part. Thus, a company which is more valuable than 80% of all other companies, which has enough full- and part-time employees working enough hours to outstrip 70% of all other companies, and which made a bigger profit this year than 60% of all other companies, will be taxed on its income at a rate of 8% plus 7% plus 6%, for a total of 21%. But a small sole proprietorship with a single employee, working 30 hours a week, and making a $50,000 profit on the year, might have a 0.6% valuation percentile, a 0.4% employee hours percentile, and a 0.3% income percentile. One tenth of each of these numbers is quite close to zero, but we round up, making the final tax rate for this company equal to 1% plus 1% plus 1%, or a total of 3%.

RESULT: Smallness is "in" and bigness is "out": Companies spend more on customer relations and customer service and salaries and anything that keeps market share while reducing reportable profits. Companies downsize but employe outside contractors to do things that employees used to do. Monolithic companies find it useful to spin off into mutally-helpful multiple independent companies. Each of these has less power to buy politicians and less "incumbency protection power" which produces more turnover in market leadership in each market. The current crop of a few bloated, steroid-inflated companies becomes a larger number of leaner, more anxious-to-please companies. It enforces a sort of Federalism or states-rights like responsiveness in the marketplace. Most folk become employed by small entrepreneurs who are sensitive to avoiding regulations and who are not co-opted by the system of government largesse.

8. Eliminate any form of tax deduction for companies offering medical, dental, and other benefits to their employees; let those benefits be considered compensation and part of the employee's taxable income, and let their valuation be identical to the valuation they'd have if an independent purchaser bought them as an individual. Simultaneously, offer every individual a tax credit for purchasing medical and dental coverage.

9. Nationalize the property of Warren Buffet, down to the shirt on his f***ing back.

10. In short, they're already doing unto us. Do unto them. They're not our countrymen any longer, but our enemies. Go to war.

Posted by: Kathmandu at December 10, 2012 11:39 PM (RVXqE)

604 602 And despite that I try to help those idiots. Let me know what you think is salvageable when its finished burning? At what point do you think it will stop burning? At what point is it un-salvageable?
Yes let it burn. It worked out real well for people in the past. This would be the beginning of the poem of when he didn't speak out because he wasn't what they were after.

Posted by: kzintius at December 10, 2012 11:51 PM (vj58q)

605 I can finally say I'm a LIB and not be a liar. BTW, myself and another member of the conservative underground at my heavily lib-dominated business concern were saying LIB after Romney won the nomination, so we were on board before the train was on the tracks. Sorry, 604, you don't get what's happened here. We aren't getting the Founder's version of America back with reverse incremental-ism. LIB.

Posted by: Bitsko at December 11, 2012 12:38 AM (pjKSk)

606 I've been an advocate of let it burn for a very long, time but there is one truth that must be faced. When it comes down The complexity of the situation will ensure that the outcome will be unpredictable. It may mean the end of the nation, or it may not.

Posted by: DFCtomm at December 11, 2012 12:40 AM (f3cao)

607 I can not remember which of our founders said it but he said that our constitution was made for a moral people and would work for no other. This is why all the attacks have been targeted on religious people. They also found a flaw in that if one party controlled the senate and the presidency, then the president could not be impeached. this was based upon the amoral politicians elected by amoral people like barney frank for just one example. The courts have also undermined morals and religion by rendering decisions allowing the murder of babies and the legal recognition of perversion as the equal of the sacrament of marriage. There is no political solution when the majority of people have chosen Sodom and Gommorah.

Posted by: dunce at December 11, 2012 12:46 AM (Xm7Dw)

608
Like a Phoenix, though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KceeQyVAGRI

Posted by: Eleutherius at December 11, 2012 02:09 AM (+pX35)

609
Count me in.
I was holding out hope for Romney, not because he was my ideal candidate but because he was...normal. I was certain that the American people had had enough of the desolation and attention-deficit-disordered so-called leadershipof Obama and his Social-worker cabal of Congresscretins. The fact that the nation deliberately chose this...this...words fail me, only goes to show that they have totally lost touch with reality and are bent onfrolicking merrily ever afterin Unicorn Junction. The American people need to have their asses whupped bloody raw.
Let It BURN!

Posted by: jbspry at December 11, 2012 02:10 AM (/bkX/)

610 The problem w Let It Burn is that what comes after the burn is collectivism and tyranny. I appreciate the sentiment of it tho. Personally I think it is going to burn no matter what conservatives do because we are already well beyond the tipping point. Best case scenario -we may be able to slow it down is all. The cycle only moves in 1 direction.
I do like the idea of Republicans saying very loudly everywhere - OK, we agree to raising taxes on millionaires, literally people making a million or more, not 250K. Say that they are making a concession and ask Obama to make the next one. See what happens. You have to change the game.

Posted by: raybdau at December 11, 2012 02:49 AM (uPYJ/)

611 Fascinating thread. Jonestown for the win.

Posted by: Caramba at December 11, 2012 04:03 AM (hoJnS)

612 Sounds like the whiners motto.

Posted by: Sam at December 11, 2012 06:39 AM (fK/V0)

613 the only problem with your thinking is that its very conventional. in this way: after a failed election almost always the loser draws the WRONG conclusions. you assume we are not a conserv country becuase of the election of BHO. i postulate that to be incorrect, and thereby your whole argumaent may be failing. the reason: BHO initially ran as a conservative. he espoused conserv ideas. most of us knkew he didnt understand them or have any intention of governing that way. and we were correct. and 9 million fewer people voted for him after they ate the buyers remorse. so how did he get RE-elected? we're all of a sudden socialists now? after barely getting 50.1% of pop vote. cult of personaily. he IS what they always claimed reagan WAS. he is all cult, no substance and most of his voters arent voting for his policy; they have no idea what they are. so given all this which i beleive to be true i think your first take-off comment: we arent what we've always been, conservative, is wrong. and given all that, i say screw it all AND let it burn. i have kids. i used to think i'd be dead before all this hit, worried how my kids would handle it, in the ealry 90s. then about 10 years ago, i started to think it might happen in my lifetime and i felt sorry for my kids. now my kids voted for this. and ya know, they can HAVE it. they can LIVE the misery they are now partially responsible for letting accur (and i'll see it all). let. it. burn. screw. the future. the future. doesnt deserve. the future.

Posted by: fredcpa at December 11, 2012 07:46 AM (9jf4O)

614 Wish I had time to browse the comments, but I don't. What I am looking for is a WTF? from the commentators to Ace. I agree completely with Let it Burn, but what Ace is describing isn't the so-called Fiscal Cliff...it is surrendering to the low-information voters and their King, the idiot Obama, and the tax and spenders.

The Fiscal Cliff has blind spending cuts and tax increases...it's a manic recipe for fiscal sanity. What Ace seems to be describing is the opposite -- let the idiots have their way and see how they like it. Sequestration will actually reign in these turds. Maybe I have something completely wrong...looking forward to clarification.

Posted by: Jaibones at December 11, 2012 08:03 AM (yeU9w)

615 I am to the point where I personally am in a Let It Burn mood, but if anyone here thinks that there will be a phoenix from the ashes of the United States, I recommend you take off your rosy glasses. Take a look around the world at wherever mob action happens. Someone posts a video the members of the religion of peace don't like. So to show "how angry we are" for the cameras of CNN, they run down the street and burn their neighbors' house to the ground. Does that sound like the kind of rational thinking it takes to write a constitution? Revolutions don't work, and Let It Burn is a conservative pipe dream.

Posted by: Jose Quinones at December 11, 2012 08:04 AM (0iGKC)

616 603 Kat: you've put quite a bit of thought into this, haven't you?

Posted by: Jaibones at December 11, 2012 08:13 AM (yeU9w)

617
We're $16 trillion in debt with an annual deficit of $1 trillion +. It's going to burn no matter what, and after re-electing zippy it doesn't seem like we as a country are interested in facing our debt and spending problems. LIB

Posted by: Choom based realist at December 11, 2012 08:24 AM (BHM5V)

618 I am in a modified Corker camp based upon the following thinking. President Obama campaigned on higher taxes on people like me. I don't like it, I think it's stupid and ineffectual, and don't want it. However, it is his and the Dems one and only talking point about supposed "balance"-- a panacea. Fine, very publicly and loudly proclaim, "We are giving Obama and the Dems what they want and that they proclaim will be a fountain for growth and prosperity. Game on." And then publicly tell them (challenge them) that it is their turn now to solve the annual deficit, the national debt? Whatcha got? No negotiating. It is their problem, let them own it and come up with solutions. And get out the megaphone every day about their lack of solutions, beat the drum. I don't think it is a success strategy to allow ourselves to be positioned as we are. The party of low taxes for the top end of the income spectrum. Even if I firmly believe (as I do) that low taxes are a good. And I think it is even worse from the national perspective to be seen as the party demanding the cuts. No,this is not a demand of our party, it is a demand of economic reality. And if the Dems refuse to solve the problem, then make them own it every single day.I don't want them to be able to say that the Rs insisted upon this medicine and we protected you to the extent possible. Until the Ds cooperate and put forward a program of real cuts, we cooperate on nothing else that relates to the budget, the deficit, the debt.

Posted by: Mike at December 11, 2012 09:24 AM (6IVXw)

619 As another poster stated, societal collapses do not end in phoenixes of ideal democracy. The United States Constitution came about because people in America had lived in relative freedom for 200 years, and when the gripping claw of Old World corruption came calling in the mid-18th century, they fought it off.

That said, I'm afraid that there is no return to that Constitution. The country has ignored it for at least 50 years, and the principle of having no principles has settled in to such a depth and breadth that it owns us all. About all I feel I can do is protect myself and my heirs to the best of my ability. I've gone Galt. Join me.

Posted by: The Old Coach at December 11, 2012 09:28 AM (MbMSS)

620 OUTSTANDING!!!!!!
This is the best explanation of the call, I have heard. I agree that the country needs adult leadership and there is none of that in Washington DC. They are so far removed from reality of the American people you could easily call the current attitude to the Romans "Games and Circuses" to keep the rabble quiet.
We cannot continue on this road,our grandchildren will die and still be paying off the current Obama Debt. Four more years of his corruption and waste and even your great gandchildren will die and beunable to payoff the Obama debt.
I know that Americans have become addicted to government freebees and both parties have enabled that feeling but at some point an adult has to say no to more candy, and act to slow or stop the addiction. The DNC will use the standard Race and Sex cards (it is all they have) and the RNC will wimp out like always and crawl into the corner and hide.

Posted by: John21 at December 11, 2012 09:36 AM (46VAS)

621 161 Exactly. Letting it burn is also the plan of the enemy. Cloward-Piven provides a blueprint for the destruction of the current USA, so it can be rebuilt in a Communist model.

5
The problem is that what arises from the ashes isn't going to be
designed by Madison and Jefferson, it's going to be designed by Pol Pot
and Stalin wannabees.

But don't those sorts of movements start by taking from the producers? Seems we're already there, only without much of the violence yet. When things collapse and there's no money to take from anyone, I assume that there will be lawlessness for a while. But at that point won't civilized people (perhaps some who have been home-schooled or have read a book or two) work to develop order & rule of law, and then allow producers to begin working again?

Or do the Chinese move in and impose their order and ship everything of value across the ocean and leave the US a nation of serfs?

Posted by: GBC at December 11, 2012 09:41 AM (aI0qz)

622 That's the only conclusion I can reach too, and I'm glad I'm not the only one! The feckless Republican Party can just die for all I care. I would like to see conservatives organize underground and fight liberalism in new ways other than through meaningless elections. We need some consertvative Julian Assanges.

Posted by: GMO at December 11, 2012 09:53 AM (MqZtI)

623 The faster it burns, the better. Trying to prop it up with half-measures just throws fuel on the fire.

Watch what Hillary does. If she says, "Thanks, but no thanks - I am not running for president in 2015," then you know we are on the right track.

Posted by: Lavaux at December 11, 2012 09:57 AM (1dffM)

624 Burn, Baby, Burn!!

Posted by: Hucklebuck at December 11, 2012 10:07 AM (OKSUE)

625 This 1%er, armed to the teeth, says burn it down. Raze it. Then split it up. 1/2 to men and women who want to live free and 1/2 to the communists.

Posted by: Jeffrey in Boston at December 11, 2012 10:08 AM (J7sV0)

626
@ #5:
Don't be Kerensky. Sometimes, you gotta shoot a few people in order to save millions of lives.
If you're not ready to kill or be killed, you're not serious about 'Let It Burn.' That's where it'll go, people...whether we like it or not. The riots in Greece won't be a patch on what'll happen, here.

Posted by: Warren Bonesteel at December 11, 2012 10:18 AM (WwR1j)

627 Conservatives crying "let it burn" nowadays is like the people in the lifeboats crying "let it sink" as the Titanic went down -- as if they could save it.

Posted by: Ken at December 11, 2012 01:47 PM (3ar4L)

628 For a liberal, reading the rage and hysteria here is disturbing, but not surprising. If this is your politics, you will lose elections consistently (who votes for nihilists?).

But the question I pose for the Let It Burn believer is:
What if the result of Obama is Norway, Sweden, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, Switzerland,etc., rather than Greece?
We have an existence proof that social welfare states can be productive and affluent for many decades, so the burn may never come, no matter how much the Armageddon-lovers long for it.
Propose repealing national health care in any of the countries I mentioned above and you will not get 5% of the vote.
The right-wing focuses on the failing social welfare states but completely ignores the successful ones. Sure Germany may go broke someday, but nobody thinks that will happen soon. Despite all the "socialism" Canada's economy is stronger than the US. Switzerland is no inferno, although every citizen is covered by a system very like ObamaCare.
You people may spend you whole lives waiting for the flames, while the rest of the world goes on living their lives around you no preparing for the End Times.
Everybody predicting the End Times previously has been wrong, why do you think you are any different?

Posted by: TommyVee at December 11, 2012 01:49 PM (6VR5I)

629 The GOP, infrastructure has too many goodies even as Jr partners to
the Ruling Liberal elite. Most of the Elected GOP politicians will
Not go GALT, because they cannot justify their actions to those voters
back home who want to them fight and/or negotiate. The elected conservatives
who are uncorupted and have the economic means and who undestand what is
coming will leave politics and will use their free time to prepare their escape
vehicle.Those conservative politicians that don't have the means will have to
ride the farce that is politics from now on, until there are no more benefits to
staying in washington or are voted out.
Contrary to opinion here the burn will not be as fast as you think. Crunch
time will come in 6-12 years. That's when Our debt will cause massive
inflation.
What the Feds decide to do to keep
the system going at THAT point is what will cause Disorder (to put it mildly)
Price Controls, Medical treatment for those under 40 only, Gutting of the
military (anti-coup measures) increase of domestic security aparatus. And
the final Nail will be enough justices are placed in the SCOTUS, that are
B.O. type of mindset with a majority.Sure there will be elections, and
2 parties, but only one party will seem to win all the time. (The opposition will
be Appoved Opposition only (i.e. ineffectual cadidates).
It takes testicular fortitude for a Governor to say Enough, and Ignore the
FEDS. But if they pare down the Military enough over time then the N Guard
come into play, and that means the Unknown.Let.it.burn. it's not
irresponsible because .it.is.burning. Just make sure you can defend your
neightborhood and don't live in or neara major metro area.

Posted by: Admiral_Ritt at December 11, 2012 05:25 PM (EQOLX)

630 When Obamacare is fully implemented, all liberals should schedule their appointment for a lobotomy soon as possible. I'm a mean spirited right wing nutcase with a caveman attitude who can never be as enlightened as the libs. Because there is no possible way for me to reach their level of enlightenment, they will just have to come to my level of ignorance. I'm sure they will do this to make things fair.

Posted by: majorityofone at December 11, 2012 05:56 PM (HjtCj)

631 @ 615

The Constitution and the original Bill of Rights are actually pretty good . No real need to write a new one. Just go back to the original and then make the government abide by it.

Can it happen that way? Your guess is at least as good and possibly better than mine.

Posted by: majorityofone at December 11, 2012 06:31 PM (HjtCj)

632 Consider the author's prior posts and positions and then laugh.

Posted by: Veritas at December 11, 2012 09:39 PM (Q+o3w)

633 The bitterest taste in all of this is that the powers/factions that
brought the murder of the great experiment
Will get away scott free

Posted by: Admiral_Ritt at December 12, 2012 08:51 PM (9f00k)






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