Republican Counteroffer: $2.2 Trillion in Total Debt Reduction; $800 Billion in New Revenues

The "new revenues" don't involve nominal rate increases but must include actual rate increases via reductions in deductions.

The Democrats are playing a very irresponsible game here. Republicans have agreed to tax increases so long as we call them something else and can argue that reducing deductions is a net positive for the economy as doing so reduces economic distortions. That's kind of a dodge, of course, but at any rate, the party seems to be willing to do that... so long as there's a dodge.

The Democrats, on the other hand, are insistent that the revenue increases come via tax hikes. They want the Republicans to know they've been broken and have no face-saving cover.

Raising revenue isn't the point of their maneuverings -- they are simply trying to break the Republican Party. And of course they're doing that because they need Republicans to walk away from a compromise-- the Democrats don't want a compromise. They want to go over the fiscal cliff. They just want to be able to blame Republicans for that.

I'll let Bob Costas explain how that's actually a kind of an unheralded sort of statesmanship and fiscal responsibility.


Posted by: Ace at 03:47 PM



Comments

1
And when it doesn't work...

Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 03:49 PM (jUytm)

2
Is it too late to make Butters Speaker of the House?

http://youtu.be/w14IQB8yNNw

Posted by: El Kabong, RINOINO at December 03, 2012 03:50 PM (sGU4F)

3 Let it burn!!!!!

Posted by: Robert at December 03, 2012 03:51 PM (VYiE7)

4
Do any of us really know what is going on in Congress or we just relying on the "news" reports. I'd ask my congressman for an analysis of what's really happening except for the fact that he is Jason Altmire who besides being a D is a lame duck.
We don't know what is going on - really.

Posted by: i am mad as hell - period at December 03, 2012 03:51 PM (cgxNI)

5 Walk away walk away walk away... I will follow

Posted by: Thunderb at December 03, 2012 03:51 PM (Dnbau)

6
Prediction:

GOP counteroffer will be considered racist and anti-vaginal.

Posted by: Jaws at December 03, 2012 03:51 PM (4I3Uo)

7 $2.T over 10 years = $220B a year.

The deficit is $1.2T a year.

Phew, thank God we got that taken care of. Now we're only at $1T a year in the red.

Everyone feel better?

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 03:52 PM (HDgX3)

8 They want to cut Defense. That's the Great White Whale for them. It's beyond rational and into obsessional. Maybe their base will savage them if they don't do that, but I firmly believe it's ideological and they're actually angling for sequestration just to get the Defense cuts.

Posted by: joncelli at December 03, 2012 03:52 PM (RD7QR)

9 I knew Boner would sell us out. We didn't get here through lack of taxes. We got here because OBama jacked up spending by $1.1T every year.

Posted by: Vic at December 03, 2012 03:53 PM (YdQQY)

10 Maybe we're better off letting the Republican party burn. Did anybody see that graph that show the increase in spending under all of the Republican administrations?

Posted by: i am mad as hell - period at December 03, 2012 03:53 PM (cgxNI)

11 Tea Party 2.0 is assembling as we speak.

Posted by: Max Entropy at December 03, 2012 03:53 PM (gdHyx)

12 Blame is coming anyway.

Let. It. Burn.

Posted by: LibertarianJim (team #letitburn) at December 03, 2012 03:53 PM (CMbMd)

13 This is all a fucking sick joke at our expense.

I could care fuck-all about the MFM and anyone who allows themselves to be deluded by them.

WALK AWAY, REPUBLICANS.


JUST WALK THE FUCK AWAY NOW.


Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 03:53 PM (XkWWK)

14 BTW who came up with the phrase Fiscal Cliff? I want to slap that person.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 03:54 PM (HDgX3)

15 There.Will.Be.No.Compromise.

Lucy is holding the mother of all footballs.

Posted by: Master Blaster at December 03, 2012 03:54 PM (q177U)

16 Let it burn:

Country collapses/defaults

Major cities riots when handouts stop coming

Red states finally secede after enough outcries and violence

Red states unite behind Texas to form new union

Red states invade blue states, burn Chicago and DC to the ground, build Disney-themed parks on top of the ruins

New United States re-emerge, with a diminished population of clueless fucks who don't know math

PROFIT!

Posted by: Christina Hendricks's Mighty Jugs are Really SMOD in Disguise at December 03, 2012 03:54 PM (16UJh)

17
What I would find hilarious is if the various "Romney-sighting" pictures that keep turning up, showing him as a regular guy, start to turn public opinion away from the "GOP is the party of fat cats" mentality.

Posted by: junior at December 03, 2012 03:55 PM (UWFpX)

18 They will blame the GOP for it anyway, and any other failing of the JEF.

Don't compromise. Don't vote. Make them own it. Walk away

Tax rats go up for everyone, jobs are shed, conservatives are made.

A cleansing fire

Posted by: Thunderb at December 03, 2012 03:56 PM (Dnbau)

19 17

What I would find hilarious is if the various "Romney-sighting"
pictures that keep turning up, showing him as a regular guy, start to
turn public opinion away from the "GOP is the party of fat cats"
mentality.


Posted by: junior at December 03, 2012 03:55 PM (UWFpX)

Day late, many millions of dollars short.

Posted by: joncelli at December 03, 2012 03:56 PM (RD7QR)

20
Well, the point of this form of tax increase is that a rise in marginal rates discourages productivity--if the government's just going to take it, why bother. This is Econ 101.

Cutting deductions doesn't have the same effect--you lose the deduction whether you do incremental work or not. It all makes sense when you understand incentives.

Revenueis the only card we have that we can use to extract spending cuts. It was already laid and the Democrats want to exploit the fact we have no more. This doesn't make them shrewd and us fools, it's just how the cards were dealt.

Posted by: spongeworthy at December 03, 2012 03:56 PM (r5w1L)

21 8 Posted by: joncelli at December 03, 2012 03:52 PM (RD7QR)


THIS. In any case, they own the media, they own the schools, they own the sick culture, they just about own the courts and they own an ever-more odious and omnipresent federal bureaucracy. Destroying the last vestige of American greatness would send them into paroxysms of delight.

My blood is now boiling. Better feed the kittehs before I explode.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 03:57 PM (XkWWK)

22 Hey stock market types -- what happens to the market if sequestration kicks in?

Posted by: joncelli at December 03, 2012 03:57 PM (RD7QR)

23 @16

Cut. Jugs. Newsletter.

Posted by: LibertarianJim (team #letitburn) at December 03, 2012 03:57 PM (CMbMd)

24 BTW who came up with the phrase Fiscal Cliff? I want to slap that person.
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 03:54 PM (HDgX3)


Hahah!!

Posted by: Master Blaster at December 03, 2012 03:57 PM (q177U)

25
Republicans have only 3 options.

A. Compromise

B. Do Nothing, i.e., go over the 'cliff'

C. Allow Obama everything he wants.

The Democrats would love B (for reasons Ace points out) but they'd also love A because the Republicans' fingerprints will be all over the deal when in 2013 the economy goes into recession.

Our best option and what the Democrats want least is option C.

Democrats do not want to "own" the economy. They know their policies are awful. But as long as they blame the Republicans, they'll stay in power.

Go for option C with only two conditions:
1. the entire deal 'sunset's on 12/31/2013.
2. the Senate promises to pass a budget before July 2013.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 03:57 PM (jUytm)

26 You guys realize this is politics, right? The Dems are playing with a strong upper hand, and you're simply not used to it.

Carry on.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 03:58 PM (t1NLo)

27 A ten-year timeline for "cuts" is meaningless. And the Left still won't accept it anyway (rich not paying fair share).

LiB

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 03, 2012 03:58 PM (zpqa2)

28
You know what we need? A milquetoast, middle of the road solution.

That should get us out of the current lost decade.

Posted by: MJ at December 03, 2012 03:58 PM (TR60b)

29 Boehner is playing the game badly. This 10 year stuff is stupid.

He should up the ante. Immediately pass a change to the 72 budget act ending baseline increases. Then pass a budget.

No numbers actually matter when there hasn't been a budget for 3 years, now going on 4. Good thing we had Mittens talking about how swell Obama was, otherwise he might have pointed some of this shit out.

Posted by: Hopeless at December 03, 2012 03:58 PM (dYizu)

30
I like the 'put up Obama's offer for a vote, then everyone vote present so it passes option.' Obama and The Dems own everything.

Boehner and McConnell still think they're playing politics. Obama is playing Chicago Gangster.

These are not serious people looking for a serious discussion, only a violent skullfuck of their defeated opposition.

Posted by: El Kabong, RINOINO at December 03, 2012 03:58 PM (sGU4F)

31 How about this as an offer from Boner:

Obama gets tax rates back to Clinton levels for everyone making $200K+.....the day unemployment falls below 4.5% or the deficit is below $500B, whichever comes first.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 03:59 PM (HDgX3)

32 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at December 03, 2012 03:59 PM (5DR1j)

33
/enter the ball of yarn

Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 03:59 PM (jUytm)

34 2. the Senate promises to pass a budget before July 2013.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 03:57 PM (jUytm)


Promises, promises. Like every other one they never keep. It has to be legally tied to a pre-condition if they fail.

Like ending baseline budgeting. or something.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 03:59 PM (XkWWK)

35
The Grand Kick the Can Down the Road.

Posted by: MJ at December 03, 2012 03:59 PM (TR60b)

36 This was the perfect opportunity to take tax increases off the table and erase Boehner's opening negotiation-against-himself gambit.

But noooooo.

Fuck negotiating. It's time to start shooting hostages.

Posted by: Andy at December 03, 2012 04:00 PM (C/NnJ)

37 Don't feed trolls.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 03, 2012 04:00 PM (JEpGb)

38 Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 03:57 PM (jUytm)

Allowing Obama everything he wants still sets GOP up for blame. MFM will forevermore refer to it as a "bipartisan move".

The MFM will not allow the GOP to win. Period.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 03, 2012 04:01 PM (zpqa2)

39 AllenG:

Your dedication is fucking amazing. Thank you.

Pubs need to go full retard here. BALANCE THE FUCKING BUDGET....

None of this 10 year drawn out bullshit. And then come up with a plan to simultaneously knock out the accumulated debt piece by piece.

Then, and only then, will it be a realistic plan. People's eyes glaze over when you starting spouting nonsense about shit that shall happen or may happen or could mighta happen over a fucking decade involving made up numbers of dollars.

Just drive home balance the budget, balance the fucking checkbook AS IN NEXT FUCKING YEAR, and that's an easy one to explain.

Posted by: Prescient11 at December 03, 2012 04:01 PM (tVTLU)

40
You know what we need? A milquetoast, middle of the road solution.

Half-measures, for the win!

Which is what I fear we'll get. And we will be crushed in 2014.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 04:01 PM (jUytm)

41
"Red states invade blue states, burn Chicago and DC to the ground, build Disney-themed parks on top of the ruins"

You'll never get the fire hot enough to get all the stink out of those sites. May as well use them as landfills to mask the odor.

Posted by: Jaws at December 03, 2012 04:01 PM (4I3Uo)

42 Heh. There's not any solid examples of what loopholes, etc., these GOP "revenues" will come from. The GOP is saying, trust us, we'll close unspecified loopholes and you'll get 800 billion.

Gop is screwed here.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:01 PM (t1NLo)

43 Red states invade blue states, burn Chicago and DC to the ground, build Disney-themed parks on top of the ruins

---

You had me until here.

Why the fuck should red states bother to conquer blue states? Cripple their ability to threaten "red states" then watch them collapse upon themselves.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at December 03, 2012 04:01 PM (e0xKF)

44
Promises, promises. Like every other one they never keep.

Of course. The point is to make the Democrats break a promise.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 04:02 PM (jUytm)

45 @16

That, along with Ms. Hedricks' mighty jugs are some things I can get behind, or on top of for that matter.

Posted by: JollyRoger at December 03, 2012 04:03 PM (t06LC)

46 Key is the Democrats want to continue to use the Tax system for Social Engineering... they want to pick winners and losers, and how we live...

They will never go for a deal where they cannot tinker in our lives through the Tax system... for the Power to TAX is the Power to Coerce.... and they LIKE IT!

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 03, 2012 04:03 PM (lZBBB)

47 Speaker Boehner, can I suggest an alternative response?

"We have Trillion dollar deficits as far out as projections go- and the projections are always understate the deficits. In reality, we cannot meet our financial obligations, under even the most rosy scenario. Therefore, having been bait-and-switched by the President, we propose this counter offer: Immediate repeal of ObamaCare. Immediate defunding of CPB, the EPA, the FCC, DOE (both of them), and NEA. Medicare and Social Security to be immediately and uniformly privatized with no public option available.

That is our starting position, Mr. President. You can truly try to meet us half-way, or we walk away and let it burn."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at December 03, 2012 04:04 PM (5DR1j)

48
@19
Yes, and no. Yes, it's too late for Romney. No, it's not too late to salvage something for the long view. No matter what Congress does, the White House is going to attempt to savage the Republican party as a bunch of out of touch guys who only help rich people. Disrupting that stereotype with Romney (the face of the party for the last six or so months)doing "regular guy" things, like pumping his own gas or grabbing a bite at a fast food place, could end up shifting public opinion against the White House.

Posted by: junior at December 03, 2012 04:04 PM (UWFpX)

49 So... if the Dems want it to burn, what does this mean for our Let it Burn strategy? It seems they tend to not want things that are good for us or the country at large.

Posted by: JollyRoger at December 03, 2012 04:04 PM (t06LC)

50 The counteroffer letter- http://1.usa.gov/Rx5tNB

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 03, 2012 04:04 PM (YjDyJ)

51 Oh, and by the way, under Reagan our revenues and non-interest (read debt payments) expenditures WERE COMPLETELY BALANCED.

So don't buy the normal bullshit liberal line that Reagan didn't give a shit about the deficit/debt. The debt increased about $1T under his watch - 8 years.

IT WAS ALL PRETTY MUCH DUE to crazy fucking interest rates because of the crazy high interest rates done by the Fed., which Reagan had no control over.

Don't believe the lies.

Posted by: Prescient11 at December 03, 2012 04:04 PM (tVTLU)

52 So how many/which deductions will be cut off?

Of course the GOP won't say because they're cowards. What about the cuts to entitlements your genius boy Ryan was so excited about? Won't say, because they're cowards.

Today's gop is a bunch of chickenhawk crybabies.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:05 PM (t1NLo)

53
Heh. There's not any solid examples of what loopholes, etc., these "reduction in occurrances of my commission of child rape" will come from. I am saying, trust me,I'll close unspecified loopholes and you'll get fewer raped children.
Youryoung children arescrewed here.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Posted by: Olaf, Harry Reid's apprentice at December 03, 2012 04:05 PM (ggRof)

54 Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 03:52 PM (HDgX3)

But... but.... add it to the 100 Billion the Republicans cut in 2010, the campaign promise cuts... and we're talking real money....

Oh.... wait.... crap....

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 03, 2012 04:05 PM (lZBBB)

55 49 So... if the Dems want it to burn, what does this mean for our Let it Burn strategy? It seems they tend to not want things that are good for us or the country at large.

---

They're dumb enough to think that their solutions will work. Fighting with them to moderate their stupidity only slows the descent.

Letting them have their way will cause a swift collapse IMHO because they are fucking retarded on the subject of economics.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at December 03, 2012 04:06 PM (e0xKF)

56
Ten year fucking deal? Really? They can't control what they spend in one year. Who the fuck actually buys this 10 year bullshit.

Same people who think that they can predict climate change while the weatherman can't accurately predict whether or not its going to rain on Friday.

Posted by: i am mad as hell - period at December 03, 2012 04:06 PM (cgxNI)

57 Posted by: joncelli at December 03, 2012 03:57 PM (RD7QR)

Bad, bad things.

Structural investment in the military, which is long-term and probably the most efficient government spending, will be slashed. Tax rates will go up which will decrease discretionary spending and crush job creation.

The markets will read that as the harbinger of a very long recession, and will dive.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 03, 2012 04:06 PM (GsoHv)

58 Why the fuck should red states bother to conquer
blue states? Cripple their ability to threaten "red states" then watch
them collapse upon themselves.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at December 03, 2012 04:01 PM (e0xKF)

We'll need to build walls around them first, to contain the stupid.

Posted by: blue star at December 03, 2012 04:06 PM (rmdRH)

59 >>>49 So... if the Dems want it to burn, what does this mean for our Let it Burn strategy? It seems they tend to not want things that are good for us or the country at large.

The Dems want it to burn in a way that the GOP can be blamed for it. Like 'walking away.'

The key is to make it burn in a way that the Dems have to be blamed for; passing Obama's 'offer' while the GOP votes 'present'.

The thing is it's going to burn anyway, and right now this is all stalling tactics to push it back for another year or two.

Posted by: El Kabong, RINOINO at December 03, 2012 04:07 PM (sGU4F)

60 It's funny when the troll thinks he's baiting us by saying the same type of thing we would say ourselves.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 03, 2012 04:07 PM (zpqa2)

61
A quick perusal of the typical lefty sites shows that not one person has considered a deal not getting done.

No one is proposing to go over the cliff, so for that reason alone, it's worth discussing.

Posted by: MJ at December 03, 2012 04:07 PM (TR60b)

62 re: 'What I would find hilarious is if the various "Romney-sighting" pictures that keep turning up, showing him as a regular guy, start to turn public opinion away from the "GOP is the party of fat cats" mentality.'

Right.

Because nothing says Hard Working Man Who Totally Earned It like pictures of a dude who hasn't had a job during this century spending money all over the place.

Posted by: oblig. at December 03, 2012 04:07 PM (cePv8)

63 58 Why the fuck should red states bother to conquer
blue states? Cripple their ability to threaten "red states" then watch
them collapse upon themselves.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at December 03, 2012 04:01 PM (e0xKF)

We'll need to build walls around them first, to contain the stupid.

---

Make it clear that San Fran style welfare bullshit will NOT fly in the new states and a lot of the leeches will stay behind in Cali, NY, Illinois, etc.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at December 03, 2012 04:08 PM (e0xKF)

64
let's see.. eliminating deductions- why they must be "loopholes"!! for example the mortgage deduction- housing having been priced with that deduction in place for 40 years, why not eliminate it? and who will pay the additional tax? why those already paying tax!! what about limiting the deductability of 401K contributions- yes, that won't impact the democratic voter base. limit deductions to some arbitrary number- that will only affect those who can't control the form and amountof their income- in short, only the upper end of the working class, not the democrat's .001 percent. these sound like great ideas
let's increase the medicare/medicaid/social security tax, too. wonder who will pay that? the portion born by the middle class will be paid by employers and only felt in the form of higher prices for goods and services
a grand bargain

Posted by: wm flip at December 03, 2012 04:08 PM (lB/5N)

65 Mommy, when is daddy going to stop putting his peepee in my bottom?

It hurts.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:08 PM (GsoHv)

66 I'd like the Republicans to go and say,
"Hey, we're already taking in 2 trillion a year. That's enough. We're cutting spending even more. No tax increases for anyone. Just Barry won't be able to take his 4 million vay-cays to Hawaii on our dime anymore." Its the spending stupid!

They can pass whatever legislation they want. Let the president veto it. Stampede him. Make the "crisis" work for us not them.

Posted by: Iblis at December 03, 2012 04:08 PM (9221z)

67 We'll need to build walls around them first, to contain the stupid.


Posted by: blue star at December 03, 2012 04:06 PM (rmdRH)

And to your left, you'll see the Great Mason Dixon Wall.... erected in the mid 2010's, it helped stop the hordes of starving Northerners from plundering the South..

Posted by: TourGuide, Year 2300 at December 03, 2012 04:09 PM (lZBBB)

68 62
re: 'What I would find hilarious is if the various "Romney-sighting"
pictures that keep turning up, showing him as a regular guy, start to
turn public opinion away from the "GOP is the party of fat cats"
mentality.'

Right.

Because nothing says Hard Working
Man Who Totally Earned It like pictures of a dude who hasn't had a job
during this century spending money all over the place.

Posted by: oblig. at December 03, 2012 04:07 PM (cePv

WT?

Posted by: Tami at December 03, 2012 04:09 PM (X6akg)

69 Republicans have agreed to tax increases so long as we call them something else

---

Let's call them chocolate dipped marshmallow bunnies because everybody likes chocolate dipped marshmallow bunnies.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 03, 2012 04:10 PM (Hx5uv)

70 How dare the GOP not introduce a serious plan and only speak in vague generalities!

Unlike that saintly GodKing Obama.

Mmmmm...I'd love to polish his knob.

Posted by: Olaf, Holster of Cocks at December 03, 2012 04:10 PM (sGU4F)

71 You fellas live some rich fantasy lives, I'll give you that.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:10 PM (t1NLo)

72 And to your left, you'll see the Great Mason Dixon Wall.... erected in the mid 2010's, it helped stop the hordes of starving Northerners from plundering the South..

---

On the plus side, I don't think we'll have to man the wall 24/7. They won't be up between 5AM and noon nor will they try to defect at the start of a new month.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at December 03, 2012 04:10 PM (e0xKF)

73 @59

Here is the problem with that plan. You assume that having Democrats own it will some how hurt thier electoral fortunes. 2012 says that may not be the case.
The Dems own the stimulus and Obamacare and still won. Check the wrong track numbers and tell me how that works.

It sucks when a majority of your opponent's supporters are brain dead lemmings who will pull thier tab no matter what, and worst of all seem to now show up.

Posted by: JollyRoger at December 03, 2012 04:11 PM (t06LC)

74 Report: Syria Has Started Mixing Chemicals Used To Make Sarin Gas…

And that means Israel is warming up the engines on it's F-16s.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2012 04:11 PM (79ueO)

75 In the spirit of the holidays...

America roasting in the open fire....communist frost is eating your children.

Posted by: ALL_IS_LOST at December 03, 2012 04:11 PM (T/L2Z)

76 They can pass whatever legislation they want. Let the president veto it. Stampede him. Make the "crisis" work for us not them.

Are you forgetting that the Dems hold the Senate? It wouldn't make it to Obama's desk.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 03, 2012 04:11 PM (SY2Kh)

77 What i find funny is that from the beginning this cock sucker was given the benefit of the doubt from people on our side. People on our side were rushing to call him a "good man" in 2008, were saying how they wanted to work with him, denouncing Rush Limbaugh for saying he wanted him to fail. Our side was bending over backwards to accomadate this fucking asshole. Why?

Here was a man who sat in the pews of a racist church for 20 years, where the words "God damn Amerikkka" were greated with fucking applause, and we wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt? Fuck that, do you really think a man who didnt care about those words gave a fuck about this country? This fucking dick is willing to damage the economy to win a talking point against Republicans, or simply to damage this country, who fucking knows....but this should ahve been obvious from day 1.

Posted by: Mr. Pink at December 03, 2012 04:11 PM (++kZl)

78 Firefly was cancelled BECAUSE NO ONE WATCHED IT!
SS can't be reformed BECAUSE TOO MANY PEOPLE VOTE AGAINST IT!
Obama is still president BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE VOTED FOR HIM!

You see, it doesn't really matter what the Republicans do. The voters are painfully and obviously stupid. America is at an end because the majority of Americans themselves are worthless. In the battle between free shit and freedom, they have chosen free shit.

Obama is the symptom, not the illness. Should he vanish tomorrow, we would still have the 65 million retards that voted for him to deal with. They do not care that rich people make jobs or that government must be tightly limited to ensure liberty. All they care about is getting free stuff and looking cool...and there are more of them than there are of us.

So...let it burn, because we can't stop it.
Better yet, Make it Burn, because that gets it over with faster.
Turn it too ash, and perhaps our children can learn from our mistakes.
(I suggest they enact a "Find a Hippie/Shoot a Hippie" policy)

Posted by: MrShad at December 03, 2012 04:12 PM (Xqfwb)

79 ya, spending is unrelated to revenue. Has been since porkulus was baselined.

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:12 PM (QxSug)

80 thus we can only cut spending, we'll never tax enough to pay to let obama let his donors get rich.

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:12 PM (QxSug)

81
BTW who came up with the phrase Fiscal Cliff? I want to slap that person.

---

You prefer "into the fiscal wood-chipper?"

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 03, 2012 04:13 PM (Hx5uv)

82 Yep. Obama has the upper hand here. Why not just tweak the very upper end of the tax brackets? You drama queens really think this kind of move will destroy the united states?

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:13 PM (t1NLo)

83 74 Report: Syria Has Started Mixing Chemicals Used To Make Sarin Gas�

And that means Israel is warming up the engines on it's F-16s.

---

How DARE Israel overreact!!!

Syria is only doing this because they need to get rid of a massive insect infestation! Will they prepare to bomb Orkin next?

Posted by: Stupid Typical Fucking Moonbat at December 03, 2012 04:13 PM (e0xKF)

84 Is there a procedure within the party to oust a sitting Speaker?

I call on whomever in the House on our side has any guts to start the revolt.

Please.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:13 PM (XkWWK)

85 Why not go with a 100 year plan to save quadrillions?

Posted by: i am mad as hell - period at December 03, 2012 04:13 PM (cgxNI)

86 Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at December 03, 2012 04:10 PM (e0xKF)

Yes, and just beyond the wall you can see where the New Americans built the Choom Stations, which they would fill daily.... and allow the Northern Hordes to fight over them.

This led to a winnowing of the Hordes due to two factors, violence, and effect that drugs have on people....

Posted by: TourGuide, Year 2301 at December 03, 2012 04:13 PM (lZBBB)

87 Posted by: Mr. Pink at December 03, 2012 04:11 PM (++kZl)

Behold the dumbing-down tipping point. An awesome sight, no?

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 03, 2012 04:13 PM (zpqa2)

88 I'll let Bob Costas explain how that's actually a kind of an unheralded sort of statesmanship and fiscal responsibility.


Now that's the kind of bitchiness of which I approve.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Also on Teams Daryl and Glenn. at December 03, 2012 04:13 PM (VtjlW)

89 right, so is this a cut of $1 a year for next 200 billion years or something serious?

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:14 PM (QxSug)

90
You guys should heed my serious wisdom and biting commentary.

I'm fueled by ramen noodles and suppressed memories of my uncle in a clown suit.

Take me seriously.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:14 PM (sGU4F)

91
re: Syria

I don't believe that for a second.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 04:14 PM (jUytm)

92 Free shit.

It ain't free, and what you get is shit.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:14 PM (XkWWK)

93 Go off grid. Participate in the underground economy as much as possible.

Restrain your spending to bare minimums and use the savings to buy more ammo and guns..and do some midnight gardening.


Posted by: @PurpAv at December 03, 2012 04:14 PM (5hFv5)

94 Why not go with a 100 year plan to save quadrillions?

Posted by: i am mad as hell - period at December 03, 2012 04:13 PM (cgxNI)

I lol'd

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 03, 2012 04:14 PM (zpqa2)

95 WT?


Posted by: Tami at December 03, 2012 04:09 PM (X6akg)


It appears his shift at the glory hole went back to nights.

Posted by: © Sponge at December 03, 2012 04:15 PM (UK9cE)

96 How about this:

Every good and service produced and every resource needed to produce it is free!

No money, no taxes. WIN!!!!

Perpetual motion.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:16 PM (XkWWK)

97 Well, good luck in your post-apocalyptic dream worlds.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:16 PM (t1NLo)

98 this is so much BS though.

A. Obama doesn't negotiate.

B. Obama only legislates through panic

Like Fred Thompson said, "A ruskie don't take a dump, son, without a plan."

Obama thinks he's got some sort of winner here. He's banking on "fiscal cliff" panic.

GOP should X, where X is not play the panic game.

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:16 PM (QxSug)

99 52
So how many/which deductions will be cut off?



Of course the GOP won't say because they're cowards. What about the
cuts to entitlements your genius boy Ryan was so excited about? Won't
say, because they're cowards.



Today's gop is a bunch of chickenhawk crybabies.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:05 PM (t1NLo)

________________________________
Typical idiot math challenged liberal.Medicare and SS are about $30 trillion in the hole combined. Taxes on evil rich white men add up to $1.6T over 10 years.
Only if 1+1=18 does Medicare/SS survive.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 04:16 PM (HDgX3)

100
The Democrats won and they're acting like winners.

A lesson the Republicans could learn from.


Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at December 03, 2012 04:16 PM (kdS6q)

101 We'll all be fine when we use the balanced approach to raise the top rates and leave everything else alone. I guarantee it!

Posted by: Olaf the entertainer at December 03, 2012 04:16 PM (cgxNI)

102 It appears his shift at the glory hole went back to nights.


Posted by: © Sponge at December 03, 2012 04:15 PM (UK9cE)


Ah, I haven't been around much the past few weeks. Is 'it' new?

Posted by: Tami at December 03, 2012 04:16 PM (X6akg)

103
Believe me, I know a lot about queens, both drama AND Obama.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:17 PM (ggRof)

104 If everyone who voted against SCOAMF just refused to pay income taxes (and took all their money out of the banks), that would tend to raise some pulses.

Fuck it. Cash only business where and if possible.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:17 PM (XkWWK)

105 87 Posted by: Mr. Pink at December 03, 2012 04:11 PM (++kZl)

Behold the dumbing-down tipping point. An awesome sight, no?
Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at December 03, 2012 04:13 PM (zpqa2)

I always thought if my country as I knew it ended it would go out with a bang, something large, unknown happening. Little did I know it would be because of millions of fat, half retarded, assholes who scream "Obama phooooooo" and endlessly talk about fucking Big Bird and birth control on Facebook. I guess when Gozer told America to choose the form of its own destruction America was watching Honey Boo Boo.

Posted by: Mr. Pink at December 03, 2012 04:17 PM (++kZl)

106
The Turks and the Muslim Brotherhood will slaughter 10K muslims and then scream ZOMG, look at what the Syrians did now!!!



Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 04:18 PM (jUytm)

107 71 You fellas live some rich fantasy lives, I'll give you that.

Beats being a bitch who trolls oppo political sites with weak-assed posts. Ya know?

Posted by: Offal at December 03, 2012 04:18 PM (KZi9D)

108 104 If everyone who voted against SCOAMF just refused to pay income taxes (and took all their money out of the banks), that would tend to raise some pulses.

The IRS deducts my wages through my employer. You can't ask them to stop.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 03, 2012 04:18 PM (XN0LR)

109 With the apocalypse fast approaching, I have no worries. I've got a closet full of ramen, I live in a basement, I've got 5 gallons of hand lotion and several DVD copies of 'Magic Mike'.

Please, listen to my insights.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:19 PM (sGU4F)

110
Report: Syria Has Started Mixing Chemicals Used To Make Sarin Gas…


Choomboy will have Rice send them a sternly worded letter of protest.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 03, 2012 04:19 PM (5hFv5)

111 I always thought if my country as I knew it ended it would go out with a bang, something large, unknown happening.


I'm pretty sure SMOD will be right on that.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Also on Teams Daryl and Glenn. at December 03, 2012 04:19 PM (VtjlW)

112 If a CEO and his exec's fuck up a contract or project they get canned.

Who in the GOP has been fired?

If no one, why do we expect different results?

You know I have some sympathy with the argument that there is no GOP 'elite' pulling strings with arched eyebrows, cackling in the deep of the night, but the GOP is an entity. It has executives. It has decision makers.

Why the fuckity fuck hasn't anyone been fired publicly for this gd mess?

If no one is fired, there is no question that failure is the GOP's official policy.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 03, 2012 04:20 PM (JEpGb)

113 108 The IRS deducts my wages through my employer. You can't ask them to stop.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 03, 2012 04:18 PM (XN0LR)


Yeah, that is a fly in the 'erntment. That's why Greece is fucked. They want all their freebies and early retirement but go underground to avoid the 85-90% income tax that would allegedly fund it.

Goes down like a flaming supertanker full of Ouzo.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:20 PM (XkWWK)

114 Ah, I haven't been around much the past few weeks. Is 'it' new?


Posted by: Tami at December 03, 2012 04:16 PM (X6akg)


I seem to remember that nick from the past, but it's been awhile.

And I need to take a break from this stuff for a few weeks myself. Finding the depression hard to combat.

Posted by: © Sponge at December 03, 2012 04:21 PM (UK9cE)

115
What's the quickest way for the entire world to turn against Assad and give the US a reason for immediate regime change?

Use chemical weapons.

Assad isn't that stupid. This is a set up. And we're the fools.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 04:21 PM (jUytm)

116 106
The Turks and the Muslim Brotherhood will slaughter 10K muslims and then scream ZOMG, look at what the Syrians did now!!!

Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 04:18 PM (jUytm)


They will of course blame the Joos first and tie them to Assad, just like they tied Qaddafi to the Mossad.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:21 PM (XkWWK)

117 On the day the Navy officially took the aircraft carrier Enterprise out of service after 51 years in the fleet, the service announced that the name Enterprise won’t be absent long from the fleet.

The third Gerald R. Ford-class aircraft carrier, CVN-80, will become the ninth ship in the Navy’s history to be named Enterprise, Navy Ray Mabus announced Dec. 1 in a pre-recorded video message that was played at the inactivation ceremony.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2012 04:21 PM (79ueO)

118 I'm a proud Democrat.

After spending ten years as a closet gimp for my obese uncle, I'm used to be blindfoldeded, tugged around by a leash and spontaneously penetrated with a wide array of foreign objects. There is no better training for a loyal (D) voter.

I'm so serious you guys. Seriously. Listen.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:22 PM (sGU4F)

119 I'm all for getting rid of the mortgage deduction. It's a stupid deduction that in the long run does nothing but gives tax dollars to people who build homes.

The tax deduction allows people to afford more home than they could otherwise afford. For example someone can buy $100K worth of house. Without the deduction they buy $100K. Now here comes the tax deduction which means they can all of a sudden buy a $110K house. Hoooray they get a better house. Right? Wrong. All that happens is the formerly $100K house is now priced at $110K. The buyer gets the same house at the same price since the extra $10K is received back through the tax deduction over 30 years of mortgage payments. But the home builder has just added $10K in profit courtesy of the US government.

Grandfather in any existing mortgages and eliminate the tax deduction going forward.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 04:22 PM (HDgX3)

120 We have been enduring an era of intolerable acts of our government
and much like Great Britain of the late 1700's which led to the convening
of the first continental congress, we are quickly coming to a point where
action will be necessary to reverse this condition and restore our rightful
place as free men and not slaves, because that is what the federal
government seeks to turn us into - SLAVES

The British government instituted the Stamp Act and the Townshend Acts
as a way for the colonies to pay for their "fair share" of the costs of
maintaining the British Empire, we suffer under these same sentiments
and conditions as our rulers seek to increasingly burden the most productive
among us with confiscatory taxation and onerous regulation to pay for the
maintenance of the least productive among us under the guise of fairness.

I am calling on our so-called representatives to pledge the following

1 -We will not offer or sign onto any legislation that raises taxes, alters tax
rates, creates new taxes, raises fees, creates new fees or any scheme or
plan to increase monies flowing into the federal government from the
citizens, businesses and corporations of the United States wherever they
may reside.

2 - We will not offer or sign onto any legislation that creates and or
alters regulations, rules, codes that would impose a limit, constrain
a right, impose a duty, allocate a responsibility on any citizen, business
or corporation of the United States wherever they may reside.

3 - We will not offer or sign onto any legislation that would result in
the full implementation of the "Affordable Care Act"

4 - We will not allow to leave committee or confirm any judicial appointee
of the President of the United States.

5 - We will not offer or sign any legislation that creates any new agency, office,
czar or otherwise increases the size, scope and reach of the federal government.


This is what I want from my so-called representatives, I want them to stand
athwart these outrages and usurpations and yell - STOP!


We've made too many compromises already, signed onto too many grand bargains.

They seek to tax more and more and we compromise.

They seek to regulate and take away our liberty and we compromise.

Not again!

The line must be drawn here!

This far, no farther!

And we will make them pay for what they've done!

Posted by: General Woundwort at December 03, 2012 04:22 PM (RrD4h)

121
From Beohner's surrender document -- er -- letter:

With the fiscal cliff nearing, our priority remains finding a reasonable solution that can pass both the House and the Senate, and be signed into law in the next couple of weeks. The best way to do this is by learning from and building on the bipartisan discussions that have occurred during this Congress, including the Biden Group, the Joint Select Committee, and our negotiations leading up to the Budget Control Act.



That's it John, build on your successes...


Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at December 03, 2012 04:22 PM (kdS6q)

122 So how many/which deductions will be cut off?

There's talk of ending the mortgage interest deduction. That'll certainly jump start the comatose real estate market and get all the unemployed construction workers back on the job.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 03, 2012 04:23 PM (5hFv5)

123 "Grandfather in any existing mortgages and eliminate the tax deduction going forward."

That is really a pretty good idea.

Posted by: MrShad at December 03, 2012 04:23 PM (Xqfwb)

124 10 gazzilion dollar tax increase!

It's the only way i can get hard anymore.

Posted by: Harry "Dorian Gray's coatrack") Reid at December 03, 2012 04:23 PM (zZJJp)

125 Why the fuckity fuck hasn't anyone been fired publicly for this gd mess?

If no one is fired, there is no question that failure is the GOP's official policy.


OK, say Boehner, McConnell and Priebus all get "fired".

Then what?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 03, 2012 04:23 PM (SY2Kh)

126 112 Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 03, 2012 04:20 PM (JEpGb)

Agreed. I asked in an earlier post if a) there is a procedure to remove the sitting House Speaker and b) do we have a single person on our side willing to call for it and c) a majority to go along with it.

We are fucked royally with Boehner. He needs to go, NOW!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:24 PM (XkWWK)

127 I'm so serious you guys. Seriously. Listen.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:22 PM (sGU4F)


Why does that remind me of the epic twitter dismantling of MSNBC's Toure not too long ago.

Posted by: © Sponge at December 03, 2012 04:24 PM (UK9cE)

128 in the long run does nothing but gives tax dollars to people who build homes.

Me keeping more of my paycheck != giving tax dollars to my home builder. Especially since my home builder sold my mortgage within about 6 months of me purchasing my home.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at December 03, 2012 04:24 PM (5DR1j)

129 WHAT TO CUT????

How about Section 8 Housing vouchers. Single mom of 3 gets $1500 PER MONTH in housing vouchers. I mean, what the fuck. that's a mortgage on a great house in an affluent suburb.

Non welfare queens HATE, I MEAN ABSOLUTELY HATE, Section 8 vouchers.

You want to take on the welfare queen state, this is how you do it. Go right after these fucks. HAVE SOME FUCKING BALLS.

90% of Americans don't want to see their neighborhoods turned into welfare ghettos. Go right after it and limit Section 8 housing credits to amounts as to such that they can only be used in ghettos.

This will be very very very popular, despite what the media will scream about.

Posted by: Prescient11 at December 03, 2012 04:24 PM (tVTLU)

130 29 He should up the ante. Immediately pass a change to the 72 budget act ending baseline increases. Then pass a budget.

They have already passed multiple amendments to the '74 Budget Act* and they are currently working on the budget.

*http://1.usa.gov/UbQItZ

Posted by: 80sBaby at December 03, 2012 04:24 PM (YjDyJ)

131 25blah blah blah Go for option C yadda yadda etc etc

--------

That's an awful lot of words for "this isn't the hill to die on".

Posted by: Citizen Anachronda at December 03, 2012 04:24 PM (IrbU4)

132 Who wasn't aware within 5 seconds after the last election that R's need to shut it down. No budget, no debt increase. Run the next two years on a balanced budget, albeit a 40% instant budget cut.

Posted by: IBT at December 03, 2012 04:25 PM (2t6Gz)

133 But I have an honorable compromise. Just walk away. Give me your capital gains, the FICA, the AMT, and the whole income tax scheme, and I'll spare your lives. Just walk away and we'll give you a safe passageway in the wastelands. Just walk away and there will be an end to the horror.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, wearing a hockey mask for some reason at December 03, 2012 04:25 PM (GBXon)

134 Most comments are nothing but complaining for the sake of complaining. I can't keep track of the main complaint or desire from these negotiations. Please clarify.

Do you want all spending cuts and no new taxes?

Do you want a specific amount of spending cuts and some additional taxes?

Do you want dollar for dollar spending cuts / taxes?

Posted by: polynikes at December 03, 2012 04:25 PM (m2CN7)

135
My congressman got fired.

How about yours?

Posted by: i am mad as hell - period at December 03, 2012 04:25 PM (cgxNI)

136
The voters are painfully and obviously stupid. America is at an end because the majority of Americans themselves are worthless. In the battle between free shit and freedom, they have chosen free shit.


This! If breathing required thought they would all be dead

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at December 03, 2012 04:26 PM (R8hU8)

137 Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 04:22 PM (HDgX3)

Fuck that, I just started making mortgage payments.
And that deduction needs to start immediately (no grandfathering.) In places where the market is diverse enough that it doesn't cause price inflation, it encourages bad decision making. (People factor it into the amount of house they can afford. You should never never never ever do such stupid shit.)
Then they get behind on their payments (or use more credit cards than they should) because they have to wait until April to get the money they budgeted for to buy a house.

If the deduction stays, assume it doesn't buy a house that way, and just save the return money.

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at December 03, 2012 04:26 PM (i177X)

138 Do you want all spending cuts and no new taxes?


Yes.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at December 03, 2012 04:26 PM (5DR1j)

139 #133

I want the "Feral Kid" to be the new House Speaker. Damn, he was good with that boomerang.

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (wbmaj)

140 Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2012 04:11 PM (79ueO)
__
My friend's family left Lebanon in the 1970s to escape the war. He watches Al-Jazeera, says the English version doesn't describe half what is being said in the Arabic version. For instance,Sunni clerics in Syria declaring that the Alawites will pay with their children being fed to the dogs.

Friend told me that Assad will deploy chemical weapons on the insurgents as if they were cockroaches before he will allow them to take the two Alawite provinces that are still in the dictator's control.

Posted by: kallisto at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (jm/9g)

141 And whats this "counteroffer" bullshit? No counteroffer. Shut it down.

Posted by: IBT at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (2t6Gz)

142 When Richard Belzer was funny, back in the early Pleistocene Era, I recall this routine, wherein he was pissed at welfare:

"School lunch program? Eat fucking tree bark.
Unwed mothers? Hey, suck dick next time."

His brain got warped when he started working on "Law & Order."

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (XkWWK)

143 >>>Why does that remind me of the epic twitter dismantling of MSNBC's Toure not too long ago.

Oh yeah...I think Ace used a lot of 'listen, I'm serious you guys'. I didn't even realize I was doing it. My bad.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (sGU4F)

144 The Obama administration on Monday harshly criticized its top Mideast ally, Israel, over new settlement construction plans in areas the Palestinians claim for a future state and urged it to rethink them.

The White House and State Department said the plans run counter to longstanding U.S. policy, particularly as they relate to a sensitive piece of land outside Jerusalem known as E1.

“We reiterate our long standing opposition to Israeli settlement activity and East Jerusalem construction,” White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters. “We oppose all unilateral actions

Oppose all unilateral actions ha? But your criticism of the palis for going to the UN to have a quasi-state declared was rather muted?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (79ueO)

145 I can't keep track of the main complaint or desire from these negotiations. Please clarify.

3:1. $3 in cuts for every $1 in new revenues.

Anything less, walk and let it burn.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, wearing a hockey mask for some reason at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (GBXon)

146
Another pull from the Cri du Boehner:

Again, the American people expect their leaders to find fair middle ground to address the nation’s most pressing challenges. To achieve that outcome, we respectfully request that you respond to this letter in a timely fashion and hope that you will refrain from any further action that would undermine good-faith efforts to reach a reasonable and equitable agreement in this critical matter.



You can just smell the beta desperation coming off this....

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (kdS6q)

147 139 #133

I want the "Feral Kid" to be the new House Speaker. Damn, he was good with that boomerang.
Posted by: Fourth Virginia at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (wbmaj)


Emil Minty.

He had the mother of all mullets.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:28 PM (XkWWK)

148 Kaboom, kaboom, KA-BOOM!

Posted by: Mikey NTH - channeling Rico at December 03, 2012 04:28 PM (hLRSq)

149
102...Ah, I haven't been around much the past few weeks. Is 'it' new?

Tami,
Not new. 'It' used to post as 'Jon'.

Posted by: wheatie at December 03, 2012 04:28 PM (CM59X)

150 Me keeping more of my paycheck != giving tax dollars
to my home builder. Especially since my home builder sold my mortgage
within about 6 months of me purchasing my home.


Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at December 03, 2012 04:24 PM (5DR1j)

_______________________
You're missing the forest for the trees. You get a tax deduction but you may more for a house. It's a wash for the home buyer. Has nothing to do with who buys what mortgage. You sound like a math challenged libtard.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 04:28 PM (HDgX3)

151 Actually, I would imagine large portions of blue states would join red states without a fight. It's the large blue urban cities that need to be walled off.

Posted by: CDR M at December 03, 2012 04:28 PM (dKV5k)

152 Hollowpoint and Weft Loop:

Well, when leadership changes, perhaps we can get Jim DeMint running the Senate and some fantastic new leadership in the House.

General Woundwort:

I agree. It's time to take a principled stand. AT LEAST LAY IT THE FUCK ON THE TABLE. You can compromise in the end if needed and they put out a principled proposal, BUT IF YOU CAN'T INITIALLY START FROM YOUR DREAM RESULT, then what are we going to point to later??

Posted by: Prescient11 at December 03, 2012 04:28 PM (tVTLU)

153 OK, say Boehner, McConnell and Priebus all get "fired". Then what?Posted by: Hollowpoint

Again, what does any responsible entity do?

Hire new people. What else? Is there some grand 3rd option?


Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 03, 2012 04:28 PM (JEpGb)

154
Its the culture man. You can't blame the people with the budget in their hands.

Posted by: Bob Costas, Law and Order: Special Brain Dead Victims Unit at December 03, 2012 04:29 PM (n/ubI)

155 My friend's family left Lebanon in the 1970s to escape the war. He watches Al-Jazeera, says the English version doesn't describe half what is being said in the Arabic version. For instance,Sunni clerics in Syria declaring that the Alawites will pay with their children being fed to the dogs.

Friend told me that Assad will deploy chemical weapons on the insurgents as if they were cockroaches before he will allow them to take the two Alawite provinces that are still in the dictator's control.
Posted by: kallisto at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (jm/9g)


I believe every word you typed and think things are starting to spin out of control in the Middle East as Nero fiddles or in this case obama golfs

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2012 04:29 PM (79ueO)

156 How about Section 8 Housing vouchers. Single mom of 3 gets $1500 PER
MONTH in housing vouchers. I mean, what the fuck. that's a mortgage on a
great house in an affluent suburb.


Not true. The voucher amount is not fixed. It varies by locality.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 03, 2012 04:29 PM (5hFv5)

157 #133
Max: I'll drive that tanker. Right over the "Fiscal Cliff."

Posted by: Fourth Virginia at December 03, 2012 04:30 PM (wbmaj)

158 "Me keeping more of my paycheck != giving tax dollars to my home builder."

Yes, it does.
The easy money means that the price of houses inflates.
In a very similar way to how government backed student loans make the price of education inflate.

It wouldn't really be right to end the deductions on current mortgages, but future ones should not come under this.

Posted by: MrShad at December 03, 2012 04:30 PM (Xqfwb)

159 **138 Do you want all spending cuts and no new taxes?


Yes.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart **

yes.

how hard is it for libs to understand porkulus has been baselined. just kill it. Cut spending.

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:30 PM (QxSug)

160 151 Actually, I would imagine large portions of blue states would join red states without a fight. It's the large blue urban cities that need to be walled off.

---

I wouldn't think it would take a lot of effort in some cases, like Manhattan, to wall them off.

John Carpenter was nice enough to leave us the blueprints to do just that.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at December 03, 2012 04:30 PM (e0xKF)

161 129
WHAT TO CUT????



How about Section 8 Housing vouchers.
.....


Posted by: Prescient11 at December 03, 2012 04:24 PM (tVTLU)

Bingo.

Posted by: Endeavor to Persevere at December 03, 2012 04:30 PM (zZJJp)

162 Guys:

Also, here is a test to see if everyone on this blog can agree on one specific cut.

The first one I float out is the Section 8 housing vouchers. Reimbursements on that front should be cut significantly.

Does everyone agree?

I mean let's see what the consensus is on here, before we bitch at the GOP about middling. If we can't agree on what should be cut, then how should they?

Posted by: Prescient11 at December 03, 2012 04:31 PM (tVTLU)

163 @151 true dat. The GOP is basically the party of the burbs. The burbs and the GOP just don't know it yet.

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:31 PM (QxSug)

164 It's really fucking simple

Federal Budget: 3.5 Trillion
Federal Receipts: 2.6 Trillion

Cut whatever the fuck you want to get to FB = FR


WHATEVER. YOU. FUCKING. WANT


Posted by: General Woundwort at December 03, 2012 04:31 PM (RrD4h)

165 155 ... Sunni clerics in Syria declaring that the Alawites will pay with their children being fed to the dogs...

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 03, 2012 04:29 PM (79ueO)

I don't get it; Teen SCOAMF had it the other way around?

Seriously, these chemical weapons couldn't have been smuggled in by Saddam Hussein when the weapons inspectors were kicked out during the 4years before the war???

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:31 PM (XkWWK)

166 You get a tax deduction but you may more for a house. It's a wash for the home buyer.

You act as if the only pressure on housing prices is the home mortgage interest deduction. It isn't.

To be clear, I'm not actually defending the deduction, just pointing out that your logic is flawed. As Vic points out nigh religiously: We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. Period.

No. New. Taxes. No "closing loop holes," no "increasing revenue." Nothing. We are taxed enough. Cut the fucking spending. Once that is done (and not before) then we can talk about ways to increase revenue.

Even that assumes that raising taxation in any way (including "closing loopholes") raises revenue. Historically it doesn't. Historically what raises revenue is cutting tax rates.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at December 03, 2012 04:32 PM (5DR1j)

167 "Debt Reduction"? or "Deficit Reduction"? The two are very different.

And if they're talking "deficit reduction", do they mean actually reducing the deficit, or just reducing the amount they were projecting it to grow?

Posted by: Socratease at December 03, 2012 04:32 PM (iVBDH)

168 Damned Mondays,
I meant to say "elimination of that deduction."
I own a house now, still hate it.
(AllenG's point is decent, but better to eliminate the deduction, and lower the rates accordingly.)

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at December 03, 2012 04:32 PM (i177X)

169 "They want the Republicans to know they've been broken and have no face-saving cover."

Fuck. You. Let. It. Burn.
Better to let the Democrats own this, vote present, let them do whatever they want and deny them political cover.

Posted by: Sam In VA at December 03, 2012 04:32 PM (rFiOs)

170
Yes, it does.
The easy money means that the price of houses inflates.
In a very similar way to how government backed student loans make the price of education inflate.

It wouldn't really be right to end the deductions on current mortgages, but future ones should not come under this.


Posted by: MrShad at December 03, 2012 04:30 PM (Xqfwb)

____________________
AMEN! Great analogy to student loans/. I'm glad someone else gets it. But sadly Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that they get a great deal from the tax deduction.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 04:33 PM (HDgX3)

171 Tami,
Not new. 'It' used to post as 'Jon'.


Posted by: wheatie at December 03, 2012 04:28 PM (CM59X)


I think 'Olaf' is 'Jon'.

I was referring to 'oblig' @ #62.

Posted by: Tami at December 03, 2012 04:33 PM (X6akg)

172 this whole sordid mess in DC has become laughable...with each side playing games.

What I wouldn't give for an extra large sink hole to just open up under DC

Posted by: kawfytawk at December 03, 2012 04:33 PM (JWLqy)

173 It's going to burn, one way or another. It's just a matter of:

1) Delaying it a few years or letting it happen now.
2) Who's left holding the bag when it all does come down.

Posted by: El Kabong, RINOINO at December 03, 2012 04:33 PM (sGU4F)

174 Counteroffer - shut it down now, or in a few weeks?

Your move Ried.

Posted by: IBT at December 03, 2012 04:34 PM (2t6Gz)

175 PurpAv:

Yes, I understand it varies by locale. Let's say in the big city near where I live that's what it is. And I know this because a friend's husband rehabs foreclosures in ghettos and pegs rent to what they get.

But you really didn't address my main point, I don't give a shit where anyone lives, is a fucking welfare queen entitled to $1500 fucking dollars a month IN HOUSING CREDITS AND SHE ESSENTIALLY HAS TO DO FUCKING NOTHING BUT PUMP OUT MORE KIDS???

We are so far from Angela's Ashes/Cinderella Man poverty it's a fucking joke.

The GOP is the party for those who work and want to work. And getting the federal government the fuck out of our lives. Everyone else, fuck off and vote for the party of the ghettos and commie socialism.

Posted by: Prescient11 at December 03, 2012 04:34 PM (tVTLU)

176 Oh yeah...I think Ace used a lot of 'listen, I'm serious you guys'. I didn't even realize I was doing it. My bad.

Posted by: Olaf at December 03, 2012 04:27 PM (sGU4F)


Wasn't picking, but just laughing thinking back to that rant......

"I used to review The Traveling Willbury's now I talk politics. Listen to me."

It was epic.

Posted by: © Sponge at December 03, 2012 04:34 PM (UK9cE)

177 Obama thinks he's got some sort of winner here. He's banking on "fiscal cliff" panic. GOP should X, where X is not play the panic game.
Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:16 PM (QxSug)


------------------------------------------------


Again, reaching a deal is not going to depend on who holds out or who doesn't. It depends entirely on how close this comes to ruining congressional Christmas vacations.

Posted by: Soona at December 03, 2012 04:34 PM (YRq5F)

178 @162 sure sure, in a perfect world.

But right now, we're in retreat.

Free shit nation is scared shitless of Great Depression 2.0.

Fix economy by at least stopping looting of highest order like solyndra and billions of other waste. cut spending. cut regulations, make america competitive again.

grow economy, then we can wean them off the tit.

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:34 PM (QxSug)

179 Posted by: General Woundwort at December 03, 2012 04:31 PM (RrD4h)

cut 900 billion from the military? Don't think so.

Posted by: polynikes at December 03, 2012 04:34 PM (m2CN7)

180 Soona. that might be sad but true. lame duck session is muthafuckingbulshit anyway

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:34 PM (QxSug)

181 178 Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:34 PM (QxSug)


The free shit nation believes that there is no problem; only greed from the rich white boys who are preventing them from getting their free shit, which is of course a civil right.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 03, 2012 04:35 PM (XkWWK)

182 >>>Wasn't picking, but just laughing thinking back to that rant......
"I used to review The Traveling Willbury's now I talk politics. Listen to me."
It was epic.

Nah, now I feel like a tool for ripping it off. It was one of those 'this sounds good, I wonder if I heard this somewhere before?'

But yes, I miss Ace's twitter beat downs.

Posted by: El Kabong, RINOINO at December 03, 2012 04:35 PM (sGU4F)

183 You act as if the only pressure on housing prices is the home mortgage interest deduction. It isn't.

______________________

I said nothing of the sort. I said a $10K tax deduction to a buyer means a $10K increase in payments to the seller. I never said $10K is the only market appreciation or depreciation that asset will ever see.

This is beyond fiscal cliff stuff. The tax deduction is bad policy. Period. It should never have been enacted.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 04:35 PM (HDgX3)

184 Its more cost effective to knock this building known as the USA down and build a new one.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 03, 2012 04:36 PM (5hFv5)

185 151 Actually, I would imagine large portions of blue states would join red states without a fight. It's the large blue urban cities that need to be walled off.Posted by: CDR M at December 03, 2012 04:28 PM (dKV5k)


Is there a way to wall off both Hampton and Norfolk that doesn't impede fleet movements?

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2012 04:36 PM (2q+FJ)

186 all of maryland except for baltimore and a 1/3 of moco is red state. But, that's a lot of people going blue and stuffing those ballot boxes.

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:36 PM (QxSug)

187
169 "They want the Republicans to know they've been broken and have no face-saving cover."


Fuck. You. Let. It. Burn.
Better to let the Democrats own this, vote present, let them do whatever they want and deny them political cover.


-----------

Letting them increase the Debt Limit...would not 'Let it Burn'.

If Barky gets to keep borrowing, then he can keep the good times rolling for the rest of his term.

Posted by: wheatie at December 03, 2012 04:36 PM (CM59X)

188 I really like the idea of TV cameras in the room. Dems have soooo much more to lose than we do!

Posted by: Tonic Dog at December 03, 2012 04:36 PM (X/+QT)

189 181 it's debateable. But I don't think anyone without a job in Great Depression 2.0 is ready to go bootstrap pulling right now.

It's compromise.

We should never have been in this position, and post Clinton-Gingrich, we never thought we would be again.

But, because of Obama's governance by panic, here we are.

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:37 PM (QxSug)

190 you can't cut welfare nation without fixing economy first.

Clinton-Gingrich did it after 15 years of reagan era recovery.

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:38 PM (QxSug)

191 Free shit nation is scared shitless of Great Depression 2.0.

I rather doubt they even understand what it would entail. They believe this party goes on forever.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 03, 2012 04:38 PM (5hFv5)

192
Posted by: Tami at December 03, 2012 04:33 PM (X6akg)

Ah. Sorry, I was confused about which 'it' you were talking about.

Posted by: wheatie at December 03, 2012 04:39 PM (CM59X)

193 Of course we are going over the 'Fiscal Cliff'. We have always been intended to go over it. It was obvious to some of us back when the Repubs stupidly agreed to it. What is so bad about it from a Prog p.o.v.? Nothing! Especially when they can get all those goodies and avoid any blame for doing it!

Posted by: John Morris at December 03, 2012 04:39 PM (sCRhB)

194 There's never been a better time to get rid of the mortgage deduction. Interest rates at under 4% mean you aren't paying jack in interest anyway, so losing the deductibility of it means little to most.

Posted by: spongeworthy at December 03, 2012 04:40 PM (r5w1L)

195 If I were Boner, my counter:

$1T cuts in defense
$1.5 T new taxes
$500B CUT in Medicaid
$500B CUT in Medicare
$500B CUT in SS
$500B CUT in other welfare

That's a 3.5 : 1 cut to tax ratio which is what Obama said he wanted in the debates. It also gives Obama the amount of new taxes he wants.

Propose that shit out there, make Obama explain why he is against EXACTLY what he said he wanted less than a month ago.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 04:40 PM (HDgX3)

196 General Woundwort:

I agree, but we need to put forward a plan and shove it up there ass. We need to say, here is what the working people of America propose AND DEMAND.

Just like with everything else with these clowns, we need to show that YOU CAN BALANCE THE FUCKING BUDGET. Period.

All we get is socialist law after law after law and we have nothing to counter it except for our own bullshit from GWB that also jacked the deficits with no plan whatsoever for sustainable and LIMITED goverment.

WHAT THE FUCK IS OUR PLAN??? Some ridiculous nonsensical shit that will happen in magic future land.

We know how much $$ comes in. We know how much we are currently spending.

So how do we get balanced in 2013, or at minimum, by 2015 for breathing room.

Posted by: Prescient11 at December 03, 2012 04:41 PM (tVTLU)

197 you aren't paying jack in interest anyway
---
which means the deduction is not much more than a standard deduction...

Posted by: RioBravo at December 03, 2012 04:41 PM (eEfYn)

198
Again, the American people expect their leaders to find fair middle ground to address the nation’s most pressing challenges.

No, Mr. Boehner. We expect our leaders to tell the truth to us at all times and to FIX THESE FUCKING PROBLEMS SO THEY STAY FUCKING FIXED. IF THIS MEANS CALLING THE PROG/COMS BAD NAMES, SO FUCKING WHAT??????

Also, Mr. Boehner, STOP ACTING LIKE A PUSSY!!!!11!! GET YOUR DRUNK ASS IN THERE AND START FIGHTING LIKE THE COUNTRY'S AT STAKE, BECAUSE IT IS!!!!!11!

/Gunny Sargeant Ermey

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 03, 2012 04:41 PM (yiIja)

199 Is there a way to wall off both Hampton and Norfolk that doesn't impede fleet movements?
Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 03, 2012 04:36 PM (2q+FJ)


Might be best to just move the fleet. Norfolk is surrounded by libs.

Posted by: CDR M at December 03, 2012 04:42 PM (dKV5k)

200 But, because of Obama's governance by panic, here we are.
Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at December 03, 2012 04:37 PM (QxSug)

47% is not panicking...they believe this gravy train goes on from here to eternity.

To be honest this whole "were going over the fiscal cliff" term has been so over used....I feel more compunction to prepare for the jump than to freak out about it.....I just want it to happen and move on from there.

I guess I'm just tired of the roller coaster we are on would rather face it head on.

Posted by: kawfytawk at December 03, 2012 04:42 PM (JWLqy)

201 Still with the 10 year bullshit. Wonderful. Even the fucking Soviets didn't try and pretend they had more than 5 year plans.

Welcome to USSA v2.0, fully bugged and ready for release

Posted by: GnuBreed, 54 trees in every house, a Volt in every garage at December 03, 2012 04:43 PM (ccXZP)

202 Propose that shit out there, make Obama explain why he is against EXACTLY what he said he wanted less than a month ago.

What are you talking about? Comrade Obama never said anything like that. I have the revised text and video right here.

Posted by: Winston Smith at December 03, 2012 04:43 PM (5hFv5)

203 Even that assumes that raising taxation in any way (including "closing loopholes") raises revenue. Historically it doesn't. Historically what raises revenue is cutting tax rates.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at December 03, 2012 04:32 PM (5DR1j)


--------------------------------------------


I'm of the opinion that Dear Leader wants this nation to burn. I've said all along that the dems need chaos in order to perpetuate their goals. And they will, one way or another, sooner or later, force it to burn.

What we need to start talking about is what happens during the burning and how we're going to extract ourselves from the ashes. Will we except anything that people "in authority" offer us, or will we keep on fighting to re-establish US Constitutional law? That's really what what's next after this.

Posted by: Soona at December 03, 2012 04:43 PM (YRq5F)

204 @161

Manhattan is an island with like 6 bridges and 4 tunnels in/out. Don't need plans to seal it off, just bad weather.

Posted by: Penfold at December 03, 2012 04:44 PM (Fbt5B)

205 So Joeindc,

Clinton had absolutely NOTHING to do with balanced budgets or welfare reform. That was all pubs.

My have we lost our way, once we get the presidency, it's a rubber stamp on spending. we are in the dog house because of that.

But a balanced budget party is a huge fucking winner. Just look at the 1992 election results. GHWB would have won a blowout if the people voting Perot when to him.

As it was he barely beat that loser dukakis and the only reason he did was cause it was essentially Reagan's 3rd term.

Posted by: Prescient11 at December 03, 2012 04:45 PM (tVTLU)

206 In the Houston housing market there seems to be more price variance based on the building phase within a section than anything related to the amount of a mortgage deduction. And the price variance is much greater than the cost of tire repairs if you are on an early build lot.


Posted by: RioBravo at December 03, 2012 04:45 PM (eEfYn)

207 Fuck this "over 10 years" shit. I want my $500B cut this year. I want $1.5T CUT in 2013.

Balance. The. Budget.

Math. How does it f'n work?!

Posted by: Tonic Dog at December 03, 2012 04:45 PM (X/+QT)

208 There's never been a better time to get rid of the
mortgage deduction. Interest rates at under 4% mean you aren't paying
jack in interest anyway, so losing the deductibility of it means little
to most.

Posted by: spongeworthy at December 03, 2012 04:40 PM (r5w1L)

Listen, I want to get rid of it too, but let's not distort the fact, it doesn't help our argument.This is compounding interest, I have a 3.5% APR on my loan, it just started in October. (Closed in August) My interest payments are around 300-500/month (I think it's closer to 500/month, but I'm not doing the math right now sorry.)On a $978/month loan. As I reach the end of my loan the interest will trend to 0 yes, but saying "It's jack" isn't exactly right. (Although, the bit about being below the standard deduction may be true. I dunno, I confess I don't give a ton to charity right now, so I don't have much else to deduct.)

Posted by: tsrblke (work) at December 03, 2012 04:45 PM (i177X)

209 This is my take on let it burn.

The fiscal cliff won't be nearly as bad as we have been led to believe. Obama will realize that the GOP won't roll over and play dead every time. Obama will be faced with either: living within the country's means, making some sort of reasonable compromise, or simply ignoring the constitution and continuing to spend money we don't have despite having reached the debt ceiling. In my opinion, any of these three options is preferable to us rolling over. If Obama ignores the constitution, that would create a constitutional crisis. I can't foresee the outcome. It's entirely possible that John Roberts will determine that "Constitution? Obama don't need no stinkin' constitution!" It is also possible that some of the Donks may realize just what they are doing and decide to rein the SCOAMF in.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 03, 2012 04:45 PM (Hx5uv)

210 >>It wouldn't really be right to end the deductions on current mortgages, but future ones should not come under this.

I don't see how you do that without completely screwing current homeowners.

If the deduction is eliminated, real estate values and prices fall. That means the guy who has a mortgage and has been taking the deduction suddenly "owns" a house that is now worth less than what he purchased it for. If he wants to sell, he has to sell to someone who won't get the deduction, and won't pay what the house was previously worth.

Existing home sales will screech to a halt and millions will be stuck in homes forever, be underwater forever, and/or default.

Posted by: angler at December 03, 2012 04:45 PM (SwjAj)

211 Will we except anything that people "in authority" offer us

When the collapse comes, they'll be dangling from lamp posts like Mussolini was. The retirement plan for collapsing totalitarian regimes isn't very hospitable.

Posted by: Winston Smith at December 03, 2012 04:46 PM (5hFv5)

212 But let me just say that when we DO go over the "fiscal cliff".....The mobs and riots we always see on Black Friday, will look like a church social......so you better take care of your families in advance

Posted by: kawfytawk at December 03, 2012 04:46 PM (JWLqy)

213 210

Existing home sales will screech to a halt and millions will be stuck in homes forever, be underwater forever, and/or default.
---
I am not arguing but the symptoms seem somewhat familiar.

Posted by: RioBravo at December 03, 2012 04:47 PM (eEfYn)

214 How about, no debt ceiling increase, no continuing resolution, no budget until the president, vice president, and 30 democrat senators resign? That sounds like a better deal.

Posted by: IBT at December 03, 2012 04:47 PM (2t6Gz)

215 Existing home sales will screech to a halt and millions will be stuck in homes forever, be underwater forever, and/or default.

So basically, it no different than what we got right now?

Posted by: Winston Smith at December 03, 2012 04:48 PM (5hFv5)

216 Free Shit Nation believes that if every rich person sold just one of their horse ballet ponies that there would be enough to balance the budget and give everybody an ice cream sundae.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 03, 2012 04:48 PM (Hx5uv)

217 CNN released a photo of George Zimmerman with a crooked and bloody nose.

Geee, how did they miss that pic before.

Fuckers.

Posted by: RWC at December 03, 2012 04:49 PM (fWAjv)

218 Hollowpoint and Weft Loop:



Well, when leadership changes, perhaps we can get Jim DeMint running the Senate and some fantastic new leadership in the House.


So we theoretically get DeMint as Senate Minority Leader and a hypothetical DeMint clone in the House.

The question still stands- Then what?

They'd use their Jedi mind tricks to convince the Dems who control the Senate and White House to cave and give us everything we ask for?

The GOP is in the minority. No amount of wishing, wanting or fighting will change that fact before 2015.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 03, 2012 04:50 PM (SY2Kh)

219 Does anyone believe Boehner's "cuts" would happen? Will there be a supercommittee to determine what gets cut?

Posted by: passably affable at December 03, 2012 04:50 PM (/YzPM)

220 145 Aaaahhhhh! It's. Not. Revenue. Increases. It's *tax* increases. If they wanted to actually increase revenue they'd need to *reduce* the marginal tax rate. How can we win a debate when our own side does this?

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette, still a Hobbit at December 03, 2012 04:50 PM (wbeNt)

221 $2.2 Trillion over 10 years? Don't we need like $10-16 Trillion just to balance? We are so doomed ;(

Posted by: Baldy at December 03, 2012 04:51 PM (opS9C)

222 194
There's never been a better time to get rid of the mortgage deduction.
Interest rates at under 4% mean you aren't paying jack in interest
anyway, so losing the deductibility of it means little to most.

Posted by: spongeworthy at December 03, 2012 04:40 PM (r5w1L)
______________________Good point.Also, very few people actually take the deduction.65% own, 35% rent.Of the 65% that own, about 40% have a mortgage.Of that 25-30%, 1/2 of them don't pay enough interest to get them above the standard deduction.So only around 15% of people take the deduction.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 04:52 PM (HDgX3)

223
Eliminate the mortgage deduction?

The Bush Tax Cuts included those increases in the Standard Deduction.

If the Bush Tax Cuts expire, then your mortagage deduction will revert back to being as valuable as it was during the 90's.

Posted by: wheatie at December 03, 2012 04:52 PM (CM59X)

224 When the collapse comes, they'll be dangling from lamp posts like Mussolini was. The retirement plan for collapsing totalitarian regimes isn't very hospitable.
Posted by: Winston Smith at December 03, 2012 04:46 PM (5hFv5)

The pic of Mussolini looking like a Mad Ballz figure always puts a smile on my face.

Posted by: RWC at December 03, 2012 04:52 PM (fWAjv)

225 >>So basically, it no different than what we got right now?

Different in that the problem would be increased by several orders of magnitude.

Currently, if you live in a decent neighborhood and take care of your property you have some chance of selling your home either at a wash or maybe even a little profit, depending on how long you've owned your home and whether you were smart at refinancing. Existing home sales are currently low, but they're not dead.

Eliminate the mortgage deduction and it would kill existing home sales. And people who can't sell their old home can't buy newly-constructed ones, so the new home sale market would crash, too.

Posted by: angler at December 03, 2012 04:53 PM (SwjAj)

226 If the deduction is eliminated, real estate values
and prices fall. That means the guy who has a mortgage and has been
taking the deduction suddenly "owns" a house that is now worth less than
what he purchased it for. If he wants to sell, he has to sell to
someone who won't get the deduction, and won't pay what the house was
previously worth.

Existing home sales will screech to a halt and millions will be stuck in homes forever, be underwater forever, and/or default.


Posted by: angler at December 03, 2012 04:45 PM (SwjAj)
______________________________________
No they won't. Read my post above, only 15% of people take the deduction as it is. If interest rates were 10% then maybe. Interest rates today are at 3% and change. On a $250K mortgage that's a tax savings of less than $1000 a year for someone in the 25% bracket. Do you really think people won't buy a house becuase they're losing out on $80/month of tax savings?

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 04:55 PM (HDgX3)

227 Letting them increase the Debt Limit...would not 'Let it Burn'. If Barky gets to keep borrowing, then he can keep the good times rolling for the rest of his term.
Posted by: wheatie at December 03, 2012 04:36 PM (CM59X)


--------------------------------------------


I'm with you wheatie. Let's just go ahead and let the time run out on this pile of shit. Sequestration seems better than any of these alternate plans. Let the blame game begin. It's going to happen anyway. And to be honest, both sides deserve it.

As for the power of the MFM? Many of the free-shit crowd are going to have to run to the streets to either start begging, working, or dying. So they're not going to be paying that much attention to the mewling cows on the nightly news. It needs to be a very hard lesson for these people.

Posted by: Soona at December 03, 2012 04:55 PM (YRq5F)

228 Free shit army in all it's glory.

http://tinyurl.com/cdccdxv

Posted by: RWC at December 03, 2012 04:56 PM (fWAjv)

229 "Existing home sales will screech to a halt and millions will be stuck in homes forever, be underwater forever, and/or default."

I think that is a problem that solves itself, eventually. Right now, existing home-owners owe more than their houses are worth. That makes them hard to sell. Ending the mortgage deduction makes that problem worse. That is true.

That home-owners will be less likely to sell their homes.

And that is going to limit the rate at which new homes are built. People don't *usually* sell their house to move in to an apartment (obviously, it does happen, but that isn't the norm). It means the market for rental properties will get tighter, and rent will likely go up, but equilibrium will eventually be attained (it will take a while, like most things in real estate)

But in the end, we will have a housing market that more closely resembles reality, not one distorted by federal government incentives.

Posted by: MrShad at December 03, 2012 04:57 PM (Xqfwb)

230 Fuck this "over 10 years" shit. I want my $500B cut this year. I want $1.5T CUT in 2013.

Would you also like a unicorn delivered by a naked supermodel?

As long as we're demanding the impossible, maybe we can ask her to bring Bigfoot too.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 03, 2012 04:59 PM (SY2Kh)

231 I have a 3.5% APR on my loan, it just started in October. (Closed in
August) My interest payments are around 300-500/month (I think it's
closer to 500/month, but I'm not doing the math right now sorry.)On a
$978/month loan. As I reach the end of my loan the interest will trend
to 0 yes, but saying "It's jack" isn't exactly right. (Although, the bit
about being below the standard deduction may be true. I dunno, I
confess I don't give a ton to charity right now, so I don't have much
else to deduct.)

_______________________________

If your mortgage is $978 a month at 3.5% you're paying about $5K interest a year give or take. If you're in the 25% bracket, that's a tax savings of $1250. But to get that you need an extra $13K of itemized deductions, otherwise you don't get to deduct the interest since the standard deduction is higher.

Do you have $13K of other deductions?

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 04:59 PM (HDgX3)

232 Eliminate the mortgage deduction and it would kill
existing home sales. And people who can't sell their old home can't buy
newly-constructed ones, so the new home sale market would crash, too.


Posted by: angler at December 03, 2012 04:53 PM (SwjAj)
____________________
If interest rates were at 12%, you may have a point. At 3%, your argument is laughable.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 05:02 PM (HDgX3)

233 Fuck the GOP and its toothless spending cuts. Their STARTING position is unacceptable. What a joke this is.

I'll vote in the GOP primaries and after that it's straight ticket Libertarian.

No more of this insanity for me.

Posted by: Warden at December 03, 2012 05:03 PM (HzhBE)

234 Do you really think people won't buy a house becuase they're losing out on $80/month of tax savings?

Do you really support an $960 dollar/year tax increase on the middle class? You go ahead and try and sell that one to the electorate.

Best you put running shoes on first though. It's my understanding that pitchfork wounds kinda hurt.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 03, 2012 05:05 PM (SY2Kh)

235 @#111
I'll keep saying it till I"m blue in the face... All of this is just the warm-up... The whole point in destroying Americas economy is to destroy its military / nuclear capabilities. Once MADD is not longer a viable option for us, both China AND Russia will launch their nukes, taking out pretty much anything that could inhibit the following full-scale invasion.

Posted by: Joshua at December 03, 2012 05:09 PM (o4CbT)

236 Mr. Cow Pie, the standard deduction for a married couple is 11,900. For a single person its only 5,950.

Condescending dickcheese.

Posted by: polynikes at December 03, 2012 05:17 PM (m2CN7)

237
We must have been one of the few who did not use the mortgage interest deduction to see how much house we could afford. We did the due diligence, said we can buy for X and did just that. And yes, we were apprised of the fact that more house could be purchased by factoring the deduction in. We considered that dumb on the face of it, so simply ignored it.

Posted by: irongrampa at December 03, 2012 05:20 PM (SAMxH)

238 Find $12K I said $13K.

70% of tax files don't itemize.

Go fuck yourself.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 05:20 PM (HDgX3)

239 Do you really support an $960 dollar/year tax
increase on the middle class? You go ahead and try and sell that one to
the electorate.

Best you put running shoes on first though. It's my understanding that pitchfork wounds kinda hurt.


Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 03, 2012 05:05 PM (SY2Kh)

___________________________________
And people wonder why we never cut spending. We have a subsidy of housing that does nothing but distort the market and which 70% of people don't take. And yet anyone even mentioning it is run out of town. And yet we're supposed to reform SS and Medicare?What's the word of the day kids? GREECE!

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 03, 2012 05:23 PM (HDgX3)

240 Actually, I would imagine large portions of blue states would join red states without a fight. It's the large blue urban cities that need to be walled off.

Posted by: CDR M at December 03, 2012 04:28 PM (dKV5k)


I like the idea...

Posted by: Snake Plisskin at December 03, 2012 05:24 PM (XvHmy)

241 2. the Senate promises to pass a budget before July 2013.





Posted by: soothsayer at December 03, 2012 03:57 PM (jUytm)

Hahahahahahahahaha actually not even funny. Doing anything on a RATS promises is a fools errand they are mandated by law to pass a YEARLY budget, so hows that workin out for ya. AND the RePunks do Nada to bring it to the fore. Mittens Nada, Boner Nada, McCoonell Nada,Viva the Tea Party Let em all fucking burn every last one on both sides!

Posted by: ConcealedKerry or SubMitt at December 03, 2012 05:30 PM (0C1jz)

242 This is over 10 years. So that's $220 billion per year, for a $1.2 trillion deficit, per year.

Yeah, it's over.

Posted by: Rip at December 03, 2012 05:50 PM (xffto)

243 "Raising revenue" is pure leftist claptrap. A departure from the current tax policy, no matter how stupid a deduction or allowance may be, is a tax increase, assuming that we're not talking about tax credits, which often are not tax deductions in the first place, but tax redistribution.

Posted by: matt foley at December 03, 2012 05:58 PM (nxTmu)

244 With these Republicans there would still be Phoenicians around beating people on slave ships.

Posted by: Caesar at December 03, 2012 07:04 PM (iuY0Y)

245 With these Democrats, conservatives would count 2/5.

Posted by: Abraham Lincoln at December 03, 2012 07:06 PM (iuY0Y)






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