"Walk Away" Gaining Steam

Charles Krauthammer calls for it.

t's not just a bad deal, this is really an insulting deal. What Geithner offered, what you showed on the screen, Robert E. Lee was offered easier terms at Appomattox, and he lost the Civil War. The Democrats won by 3% of the vote and they did not hold the House, Republicans won the house. So this is not exactly unconditional surrender, but that is what the administration is asking of the Republicans.

This idea -- there are not only no cuts in this, there's an increase in spending with a new stimulus. I mean, this is almost unheard of. What do they expect? They obviously expect the Republicans will cave on everything. I think the Republicans ought to simply walk away. The president is the president. He's the leader. They are demanding that the Republicans explain all the cuts that they want to make.

The Walk Away/Let It Burn option is growing on people. One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.

Obama is a tyrant. If Republicans do not lift the debt ceiling, it is perfectly obvious what he will do, as he's argued for it before: Like Putin, he will begin unilaterally asserting power he doesn't have.

And what will be the recourse? Court, I suppose. Impeachment, sure, but Democrats will block conviction. So whether or not the President can suddenly assert sweeping power over the purse -- sweeping aside the last real check on his power granted to the House of Representatives -- will depend on the vote of Justice Go Along to Get Along Roberts.

Just something to keep in mind. Tyrants are always looking for pretexts to rule without any check.

Posted by: Ace at 02:59 PM



Comments

1 first? Also, I should really get some guns...

Posted by: NJ Libertarian (@BadMesmer) at November 30, 2012 03:01 PM (GE0Kl)

2 Hello-o-o-o-o

Posted by: Tobacco Road at November 30, 2012 03:02 PM (4Mv1T)

3 what is a disgorge petition anyways?

Pelosi-
House
Democrats have a strategy to fight for middle class tax cuts. If
Speaker Boehner and House Republicans don't bring the Senate-passed bill
to the floor by next week, House Democrats will file a discharge
petition to force them to do so.

Posted by: akak at November 30, 2012 03:02 PM (eFroM)

4 I have guns, but need to read the post now.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at November 30, 2012 03:02 PM (4Mv1T)

5 Maybe we need a serious constitutional crisis so that maybe people pull their heads out of their asses and stop taking without providing any benefit to our society.

Posted by: Colonel Pooteh at November 30, 2012 03:03 PM (FEDb1)

6 you know they are coming for your 401K when the MFM runs a slew of articles about how 401ks are ripoff and how the fees are so terrible etc.

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:03 PM (Dnbau)

7 "Light a match and Walk Away" -fify

Posted by: Marie at November 30, 2012 03:03 PM (H50jQ)

8 One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic.

The Patient has been comatose for a long time.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 30, 2012 03:04 PM (JEpGb)

9
This is the solution. Just don't raise the debt ceiling. It doesn't need to be talked about. It doesn't need to be fought over. Just don't do it.

Posted by: MJ at November 30, 2012 03:04 PM (TR60b)

10 What happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised? No more money is appropriated, the checks stop going out? Does it happen all at once, or gradually?

Posted by: Amichel at November 30, 2012 03:04 PM (xZ8Ay)

11
If Boehner does the right thing here, we could be looking at super majorities in Congress in 2014.

Let. Obama. Own. It. All.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:04 PM (jUytm)

12 the JEF needs to own this. Don't soften the blow. He will take what he wants, make him own it. Let him burn it down. We didn't start the fire.

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:04 PM (Dnbau)

13 Does this mean Chicago, Detroit, LA, Tampa will all burn down when the checks stop?

Bummer.

Posted by: george at November 30, 2012 03:05 PM (qBLA2)

14 If Obama truly does that, well, then the mask will be off in a way that, hopefully, even the media cannot prevent.

Posted by: KG at November 30, 2012 03:05 PM (p7BzH)

15 Global thermonuclear war?

Seems legit.

Posted by: Truman North at November 30, 2012 03:06 PM (I2LwF)

16 I'll whip this out for everyone one last time

Oh the economy is frightful But obama is so delightful The voters show no concern Let it burn, let it burn, let it burn ************************** It doesn't show signs of stopping U.S. credit rating dropping See the money presses churn Let it burn, let it burn, let it burn
**************************U.S. debt climbs way out of sight High unemployment the new norm Poverty will grip us so tight We'll burn our pets to stay warm *************************** Nation is slowly dying Brainless sheep are multiplying Sanity they like to spurn Let it burn, let it burn, let it burn

Posted by: Hard Right at November 30, 2012 03:06 PM (uhftQ)

17 >> This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.

We're already very pregnant with this problem.

Posted by: Andy at November 30, 2012 03:06 PM (C/NnJ)

18 Does this mean Chicago, Detroit, LA, Tampa will all burn down when the checks stop?

Bummer.


Posted by: george at November 30, 2012 03:05 PM (qBLA2)

Yup. Feature, not a bug.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 30, 2012 03:07 PM (GRvW4)

19 So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.

I believe that's the entire premise of "Let it Burn".

The press does not care if TFG starts to assume power he does not have. They won't call him on it, nor will any dem lawmaker have the balls to throw up roadblocks or challenge him. It will be a free-for-all. A dem free-for-all. This is exactly what people need to see. They need to see what their pols do when they have total and absolute power; see how they behave.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 03:07 PM (GQ8sn)

20 walk away

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:07 PM (Dnbau)

21
As Geithner will be gone come January, he should be ineligable to lead this issue.
IMHO

Posted by: Justamom at November 30, 2012 03:07 PM (Sptt8)

22 One million moron march on DC

Posted by: izoneguy at November 30, 2012 03:08 PM (oKH8p)

23 >> So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.

I'd love to year your analysis of how the current direction doesn't lead to a genuine collapse of the Republic.

Posted by: jwb7605 (Let It Burn) at November 30, 2012 03:08 PM (Qxe/p)

24 walk away. make him own it.

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:08 PM (Dnbau)

25
"One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic."

A Republic? Where? Anyone else see a Republic around here?

I see a Social Democracy with a big 'ol nasty Fascist tumor on it, but I don't see a Republic anywhere.

Posted by: Jaws at November 30, 2012 03:09 PM (4I3Uo)

26 One million moron march on DC

DC is the last place you want to march on when the Burn happens. Preferably, you will have vacated that shithole for the burbs.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 03:09 PM (GQ8sn)

27

Just walk away.

Posted by: Humongous imp at November 30, 2012 03:09 PM (UaxA0)

28 Oh the economy is frightful But obama is so delightful The voters show no concern Let it burn, let it burn, let it burn *********************************************************************
It doesn't show signs of stopping U.S. credit rating dropping See the money presses churn Let it burn, let it burn, let it burn
********************************************************************
U.S. debt climbs way out of sight High unemployment the new norm Poverty will grip us so tight We'll burn our pets to stay warm ********************************************************************
Nation is slowly dying Brainless sheep are multiplying Sanity they like to spurn Let it burn, let it burn, let it burn

Posted by: Hard Right at November 30, 2012 03:09 PM (uhftQ)

29 begin unilaterally asserting power he doesn't have?

We're past that Ace.

Posted by: egd at November 30, 2012 03:09 PM (XVGEg)

30 make Mr. "I won" own it

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:09 PM (Dnbau)

31 Fuck the republic.

Posted by: doug at November 30, 2012 03:09 PM (TEIU+)

32 What happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised? No
more money is appropriated, the checks stop going out? Does it happen
all at once, or gradually?Posted by: Amichel


During the past gov shut downs it was a sudden work stoppage, IIRC. SocSecurity checks and some other entitlements still continue to be sent, but all 'non-essential' offices close.

I think Obama will tell the Treasury to continue with operations as normal, even if it means forcing IOU notices as payment.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 30, 2012 03:09 PM (JEpGb)

33 what republic

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:10 PM (Dnbau)

34 Rule by fiat, die by fiat. We elect a GOP President in 16, he can be a tyrant for us. After all, Obama set the precedent.

Posted by: MrCaniac at November 30, 2012 03:10 PM (Zd/NW)

35 Let It Burn.... Not like what I think matters.... after seeing the SCOAMF today posturing at his campaign rally at a toy factory it is clear, he has every intention of wrecking the country so it can be picked up and remade by his fascist-UN state and the LIV's will never know what the hell happened and won't believe us when we tell them because we're racists and homophobes and idiot tea baggers.

Posted by: Yip at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (/jHWN)

36 If the debt ceiling isn't raised - does this mean all the people who didn't pay taxes won't get tax returns?

Posted by: george at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (qBLA2)

37 If Boehner does the right thing here, we could be looking at super majorities in Congress in 2014.

Let. Obama. Own. It. All.


That.Is.When.We.Can.Impeach.And.Convict.Obama

Posted by: izoneguy at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (oKH8p)

38
During the past gov shut downs it was a sudden work stoppage, IIRC.
SocSecurity checks and some other entitlements still continue to be
sent, but all 'non-essential' offices close.


It was only depts that impacted national security and public safety that were allowed to operate (FBI, CIA, military, FDA, FAA, etc).

In a sense, this is exactly what we want to happen with any government. It's our perfect operating model.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (GQ8sn)

39 What am I talking about? The Free Shit Army won't care...

Posted by: KG at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (p7BzH)

40
Hide out in Canada. Just like the Democrat representatives did in Wisconsin.

Posted by: i am mad as hell - period at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (cgxNI)

41 tree of liberty needs what it needs



Posted by: Wally in Walla Walla at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (Dll6b)

42 Like Putin, he will begin unilaterally asserting power he doesn't have.

---

It'll be the first honest thing the cocksucker has ever done.

Posted by: Not Ready To Unsock at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (BgIBZ)

43 Don't walk away mad. Just walk away.

Posted by: Pass-around sockpuppet #1 at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (3ZtZW)

44 Republicans have NO spine. So they won't hold the line. They will cave soon or later. Obamacare is law of the land, 401ks are going to be taxed.

F-- it. Let it burn to the ground.

Posted by: Raquel at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (IJOxR)

45
The talk in the grocery store line today was of taxes and dividends.
As ever, I wonder where the best place is to put money to protect against devaluation and inflation.
Next, the lady next to me in the salon was heading to Dubai with her husband for a short trip.

Posted by: Justamom at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (Sptt8)

46
Referencing an earlier post by Ace, it seems that power is limited by the ability of someone of somewhat equal power to call bullshit.

I don't see that happening here or ever in the case of Obama.

If he orders SS checks to go out, they'll go out. If he orders the government to spend, they'll spend.

Posted by: MJ at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (TR60b)

47 Let 'er rip. Slash and burn. Let's get this over with.

When they come for our 401k's and we all go to the camps protesting, what is the secret sign of Morons? I keep forgetting. I may find an Ace of Spades card to carry around.


Posted by: ChristyBlinky, raving lunatic about Benghazi at November 30, 2012 03:11 PM (baL2B)

48
That.Is.When.We.Can.Impeach.And.Convict.Obama.

Stay. On. Earth. My. Friend.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:12 PM (jUytm)

49 So, a three-point plan:

Insist on no change to the debt ceiling;

Insist on a sunset clause in everything, set to expire in two years;

Give Obama all the tax raises and stuff he has asked for, but make sure he owns it all.

This is serious brinksmanship stuff here, but weaker stuff hasn't worked.

Posted by: mr_jack at November 30, 2012 03:12 PM (TMG3G)

50 Rule by fiat, die by fiat. We elect a GOP President in 16, he can be a tyrant for us. After all, Obama set the precedent.

GOP will be declared a terrorist organization by 2015, so no worries about an (R) president getting in again.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at November 30, 2012 03:12 PM (4WhSY)

51 tree of liberty needs what it needs
Posted by: Wally in Walla Walla


More Brawndo?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 30, 2012 03:12 PM (JEpGb)

52 GOP has to resist the temptation to "bail out" the immature family member

make him own it. its time

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:12 PM (Dnbau)

53 >>What happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised? No more money is
appropriated, the checks stop going out? Does it happen all at once, or
gradually?

Not sure about this, but I think what happens is that the deal reached last year goes into effect. Tax rates go back up, for everyone, and there are across-the-board spending "cuts" (which I think are merely reductions in future increases).

Posted by: angler at November 30, 2012 03:13 PM (SwjAj)

54 >>One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic.

Tree of liberty, blood of tyrants, etc.

Posted by: LibertarianJim (team #letitburn) at November 30, 2012 03:13 PM (WDCYi)

55 Tyrants are always looking for pretexts to rule without any check.

I prefer to think of it as giving him his own rope.

Posted by: Zharkov at November 30, 2012 03:13 PM (wpsz3)

56 >>>>One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional
crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn
into a genuine collapse of the Republic.


That is just so... cute.

Posted by: Duh! at November 30, 2012 03:13 PM (Zs83Q)

57 It's time to get nasty with Democrats. And that means on a personal and business level. De-friend and Di-vorce. Know anyone who voted for Obama, scream in their faces, then break up with them.

Let’s boycott blue state America. Don’t buy any products made in Obama voting states. Don’t spend tourist dollars to Obama states including Florida. Definitely do not give money for hurricane relief or other national disasters in Obama-voting states.
Let it flood and burn.
Time to get brutally nasty and vicious with Democrat friends, neighbors, lovers and business associates. Tell them all to ‘F’ off today!

Posted by: Raquel at November 30, 2012 03:13 PM (IJOxR)

58 Ace, sorry but I just can't gin up any real concern about the Republic being un-done.

I ceased caring on November 7, 2012, when I realized that over half of the folks sharing in this little experiment are willing to turn people like me into slaves - just so they might have their Obamaphones and free birth control.

Fuck it. And fuck them.

*anybody got a match?

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 30, 2012 03:13 PM (GRvW4)

59 We've already been in Constitutional crisis for the last 80 or so years and we already lost the Republic. Let it burn just means we're just going to pullback the curtain. The whole country is a RINO--Republic in Name Only. So let it burn.

Posted by: SpasticToad at November 30, 2012 03:13 PM (Zewfw)

60 "Let it burn now" is an emotional slogan for a very rational calculation. It's based on the fact that Liberals want to boil the frog by keeping the GOP around as long as possible to blame everything on so that they can gradually beat the public into submissive dependency as part of a new set of cultural assumptions.

Since the Libs own the media and the schools, and since the GOP leadership has repeatedly demonstrated lack of principle (or flagrant naivete, I don't know which is worse), we cannot expect things to get better through the normal processes of rational democracy. The best we can do is try to force Libs to drop the mask and hope that enough people still recognize what's behind it.

This is better done sooner than later, since the later it gets, the more the public will be ground down into submissive dependency by the bad economy and those institutions of propaganda such that they will actually beg for and support a true tyrant.

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at November 30, 2012 03:13 PM (/GSyX)

61

We elect a GOP President in 16, he can be a tyrant for us.


Aside from the fact that the press won't be compliant and there would be no election in 2016 (at least not a valid one), that's like saying the Gracchii were OK because Sulla came after.

Posted by: imp at November 30, 2012 03:14 PM (UaxA0)

62 Let Obama and Deomcrats own it, let it burn.

Posted by: urn baby burn at November 30, 2012 03:14 PM (T0JWk)

63 our currency is not the Euro and we are not in the EU. We have lovely mountains, and francs will will not devalue like your dollars will


You got two choices: either us or the Norwegians...

Posted by: the Swiss at November 30, 2012 03:14 PM (Dll6b)

64 WOLVERINES!

Posted by: george at November 30, 2012 03:15 PM (qBLA2)

65 I am fine with walking away and I am fine with going to the mat, however, the talk of letting it burn and welcoming a constitutional crisis is a little cavalier. Nothing wrong with bold actions but do not take them lightly.

Posted by: yankefifth at November 30, 2012 03:15 PM (Z9EHQ)

66
Walk Away. Sounds good to me.

http://scoamf.us/walkaway


Posted by: IllTemperedCur at November 30, 2012 03:15 PM (TIIx5)

67 ... and the from The Hill ...

We're five weeks out from the "fiscal cliff deadline," and it’s becoming
apparent one of America’s two political parties has to give.

One
has to level with the people about the choices that lie ahead, face up
to the results of the election, cease considering itself bound by
promises to outsiders and commit itself, finally, to finding a durable
solution.

And that party is the Democratic Party.

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at November 30, 2012 03:15 PM (e8kgV)

68 The press does not care if TFG starts to assume power he does not have.
They won't call him on it, nor will any dem lawmaker have the balls to
throw up roadblocks or challenge him. It will be a free-for-all. A dem
free-for-all. This is exactly what people need to see. They need to see
what their pols do when they have total and absolute power; see how they
behave.


The smarter ones will care. Because unless there is a coup d'etat, we will be back in power eventually and we'll be angry. They've played this game so far because there were no penalties to doing so, but those days are fast disappearing.

Posted by: pep at November 30, 2012 03:16 PM (6TB1Z)

69 The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.


Thomas Jefferson


Someday, before it's too late, hopefully, we'll wake the fuck up and remember that we're not inbred European peasants with no option but to bow our heads and tug our forelocks to whatever our "betters" demand.

Posted by: Grimmy at November 30, 2012 03:16 PM (uUsh9)

70 I agree that we should tell Jugears to stick it.

But I don't believe that is ALL we should, or can, do. We have to propose a better course of action, and hammer home why it is a better solution.

We need to win this argument, sell ourselves to the voters, and not just walk away and allow ourselves to be portrayed as "obstructionists".

Mi dos centavos...

Posted by: Tex Lovera at November 30, 2012 03:16 PM (wtvvX)

71 Wolverines!! Eleventy!!

Posted by: Yip at November 30, 2012 03:17 PM (/jHWN)

72 If Obama becomes a tyrant/dictator then obviously he can be impeached/removed from office.

Remember the military voted for Romney 71%-24%. Even higher share then McCain.

So as long as the military is conservative I doubt Obama will try to become a dictator like his buddy Chavez.

Posted by: Raquel at November 30, 2012 03:17 PM (IJOxR)

73 Ace, sorry but I just can't gin up any real concern about the Republic being un-done.

I ceased caring on November 7, 2012, when I realized that over half of the folks sharing in this little experiment are willing to turn people like me into slaves - just so they might have their Obamaphones and free birth control.

Fuck it. And fuck them.

*anybody got a match?
Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 30, 2012 03:13 PM

that is likely because you have not thought long enough or hard enough. everything may not go so easily if the russians or chinese decide to start messing in our affairs.

Posted by: yankefifth at November 30, 2012 03:17 PM (Z9EHQ)

74 We'll see, but I expect the Republicans to cave on this and get blamed at the same time. Hooray!

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 30, 2012 03:17 PM (pLTLS)

75
You won.

You lead.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:17 PM (jUytm)

76 So.... Lefties wouldn't poke the bear for fear the bear would rip its throat out - remember that post? And no, we didn't do anything then, either.

Ace, you did say so. You even said here's where we'd end up.

Where's the next stop, anyway?

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 30, 2012 03:17 PM (3ZtZW)

77 Can't stand this goddam president.
Grow a pair, Republicans.

Posted by: Texas Ranger at November 30, 2012 03:18 PM (IvvrO)

78 I giggled because even Chuck Woolery is on-board with walk away/LIB.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at November 30, 2012 03:18 PM (piMMO)

79 Okay, first, #16 Hard Right, you are indeed awesome.



As to ace: surely you realize that we're already on the eve of the undoing of the Republic. Obama taking that pretext to rule without any check, as you say, would simply have everything on the table with no further deceit.

Posted by: Kinley Ardal, enemy of Sanger 'til doomsday at November 30, 2012 03:18 PM (R8Rbc)

80 we're not inbred!!! Okay, maybe some of us, but we have good food and nice scenery.


and government! Much, much government

Posted by: the Europeans at November 30, 2012 03:19 PM (Dll6b)

81 "So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic."

The Republic is already dead.

Posted by: wolfwalker at November 30, 2012 03:19 PM (7udnM)

82 When the Dems start acting like their is a "fiscal cliff", I start worrying. Until then, they are bluffing. It is not time for us to go "all in". This is the time we tell them, "I'm folding this hand and am going to take a dump, I'll be back for the next hand."

Posted by: MrCaniac at November 30, 2012 03:19 PM (Zd/NW)

83 One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.

What republic? That horse has already left the barn.

Posted by: rickl at November 30, 2012 03:19 PM (zoehZ)

84 Labeling Justice Roberts as "go along to get along" based on one case (albeit a really, really important one -- but one where he did NOT approve of the expansion of Federal power via the Commerce Clause nor the ability of the Feds to pressure states into implementing Medicaid expansions) in order to imply that he would approve of the executive branch grabbing Constitutional authority from the legislative branch under the scenario presented here is either intellectually dishonest fear mongering or shows a lack of understanding of Justice Roberts' jurisprudential philosophy.

Posted by: angienc at November 30, 2012 03:19 PM (w3JGl)

85 Secession is the best and only course for any hope to live in liberty if Obama were to unilaterally and unconstitutional grab for the power of the purse.

At that time the military would need to decide on the meaning of their oaths and whether they would uphold them.

I believe in our military and think they would do the right thing.

That's why Obama wants a national domestic police force that would not be a part of the military.

Myself, I think we are already past the point of having a non-constitutional order in place and secession is justified, if not warranted, by the States to preserve and protect the rights of its citizens.

Posted by: Minuteman at November 30, 2012 03:19 PM (qs9G3)

86 make them own it.

I think that will change the minds of voters who stupidly thought the most important thing in the last election was free birth control

walk away


time to grow up

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:19 PM (Dnbau)

87
You wanted it all.

You got it.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:19 PM (jUytm)

88
Nominate me again in 2016, and I pledge to be severely tyrannical.

Posted by: Mitt Romney, Fail Czar at November 30, 2012 03:19 PM (Ks4nX)

89 We're already very pregnant with this problem.
Posted by: Andy at November 30, 2012 03:06 PM (C/NnJ)

Is abortion an option? I might be pro choice in this case.

Really though, we're going to have this constitutional crisis sooner or later anyway. Might as well get it over with while we still have a shot in the courts...

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 30, 2012 03:20 PM (t06LC)

90 We do have one option after the default. But some people think its icky to talk about.

Posted by: evil Libertarian at November 30, 2012 03:20 PM (2esTv)

91
I used the word 'distance,' Rush used the word 'fingerprints.'

Republicans, do not in any way, shape, or manner add any input. Make it 100% Democrat.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:20 PM (jUytm)

92 Since that End of History thing didn't happen, precedent applies: The more *openly* extra-Constitutionally an American president operates, the more the public will support him. Opposition may intensify, but that only means it's shrinking.

re: "unless there is a coup d'etat, we will be back in power eventually and we'll be angry."

Who's "we"? Did "we" use Lincoln's, Wilson's, and FDR's expanded powers to do what "we" want?

"We" is Nixon and Bush.

*We* have no access to power.

There's no such thing as a controlled Burn, and nothing is ever undone.

Posted by: oblig. at November 30, 2012 03:21 PM (cePv8)

93 you can't spell won without own

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:21 PM (Dnbau)

94
Rearranging deck chairs.
The SCOAMTT can't lose, unless the RINOs can suddenly grow some.
Rush is right. The sooner the SCOAMTT crashes us, the closer to world justice utopia we are.
Should it be slower, it's all the repub's fault anyhoo.
He has no incentive to avert the cliff.
He and his propagandists can say anything they want to the fools who voted for him and the intellectually superior who know better than us.
What's the horde sign?
I mean, just in case?
I make really good soup.

Posted by: Justamom at November 30, 2012 03:22 PM (Sptt8)

95 You wanted it all.
You got it.
Posted by: soothsayer


Toyota!

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 30, 2012 03:22 PM (JEpGb)

96 Obama is a tyrant. If Republicans do not lift the debt ceiling, it is perfectly obvious what he will do, as he's argued for it before: Like Putin, he will begin unilaterally asserting power he doesn't have.

OK, he unilaterally issues bonds.

And nobody buys, even at junk bond rates. Not even Bernanke--even he sees the risk in bonds that can be "refudiated" by executive fiat at any point in the future.

Posted by: Cobalt Shiva at November 30, 2012 03:22 PM (OY/SZ)

97 There isn't any other choice. If taxes go up on all, more of the lower income working people will really, really resent the welfare class. Right now the welfare class is running economic policy. If walking away is the only way to end the graft, so be it.

Posted by: Deli LLama at November 30, 2012 03:23 PM (lGu1O)

98

Lefties for decades have had a hard on for the "revolution" by the "masses."
So are they ready for the real deal?


Posted by: YIKES! at November 30, 2012 03:23 PM (mETGQ)

99 @84
I tnd to agree with you. What Roberts wanted was a political solution to avoid the Roe-like reaction a supreme court strikedown of obamacare would have. He tried to soften the effects and add the medicaid poison pill JIC it wasn't taken out with President Romney, but we'll see how that works.
I disagree with him and think he should have stood on principal, damn the consequences, but I also don't think he's all tyranny all the time.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 30, 2012 03:24 PM (t06LC)

100 We don't need no water, let the motherfucker burn.

Burn, motherfucker.

Burn.

Posted by: Matt at November 30, 2012 03:24 PM (5v/kf)

101

I'm all in on let it burn.

The only concern that entered my mind was:

Is there a way for the SCoaMT to relegate himself supreme dictatorial leader "to save the country from itself."?

Is there a way, legally, that TFG could take total control away from the people in a "crisis?"

Posted by: beach at November 30, 2012 03:24 PM (LpQbZ)

102 We don't need no water, let the motherfucker burn.

Burn, motherfucker.

Burn.


*****


Requisite audio?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at November 30, 2012 03:24 PM (piMMO)

103 Is there a way, legally, that TFG could take total control away from the people in a "crisis?"
Posted by: beach at November 30, 2012 03:24 PM (LpQbZ)

you mean executive orders and martial law?

Posted by: yankefifth at November 30, 2012 03:25 PM (Z9EHQ)

104 first? Also, I should really get some guns...

If you order your guns today...

You started 22 days late.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at November 30, 2012 03:25 PM (kqqGm)

105 As someone astutely put it in the last thread, if we're going to have to live in the Soviet Union anyway, might as well at least hasten its collapse. Time to make a venial oral compromise, get on as much welfare as possible, and Cloward-Piven the shit out of 0bama World.

Posted by: logprof at November 30, 2012 03:25 PM (gBuIk)

106 Is there a way, legally, that TFG could take total control away from the people in a "crisis?"
Posted by: beach at November 30, 2012 03:24 PM (LpQbZ)

no


he could try to claim "martial law" due to national emergency

then we become Venezuela

then we will see how willingly Americans will wear the yoke around their neck

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:25 PM (Dnbau)

107 What happens? Excellect question.

1) Goes to the courts. Congress is telling the Executive to spend $$$$ money but only giving the Executive $$ money to spend. Conflicting laws (one active, one restrictive).

2) Fed prints money and gives it to the gov't to spend. My 'stagflation prediction' from 4 years ago finally comes true. Yay!

3) Obama continues his lawless trend and just tells the Treasury to offer more Bonds in the debt market. Who's going to arrest Geithner or Obama? No one. Who has standing to sue in court? No one (maybe some Party of Stupid elected official with no balls.)

4) Obama continues his lawless trend and just tells the checks to go out. Most money is fictional nowadays. It's all digitial, there's no balancing against actual greenbacks in a vault somewhere. The US Gov't books maybe get 'fake balanced' or just go in the shitter. No one will care or notice. Who looks at that shit? The MSM? hahaha!

5) List doesn't need to be longer since the GOP always caves.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at November 30, 2012 03:25 PM (X/+QT)

108 What's the Constitutional crisis?

If the debt ceiling is hit, the Treasury can't borrow any more money, period. Nobody will buy Treasury bills of questionable legality. That's one place the markets still rule, there has to be a buyer for bonds and those bonds have to be unquestionably legal or the investors will not buy them. The only way to make them unquestionably legal is for Congress to authorize them.

Posted by: rockmom at November 30, 2012 03:26 PM (qE3AR)

109 hat is likely because you have not thought long
enough or hard enough. everything may not go so easily if the russians
or chinese decide to start messing in our affairs.

Posted by: yankefifth at November 30, 2012 03:17 PM (Z9EHQ)

I actually have thought about it. Not worried. Rifles, blades of grass, some Jap a few years ago.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 30, 2012 03:26 PM (GRvW4)

110
"I am fine with walking away and I am fine with going to the mat, however, the talk of letting it burn and welcoming a constitutional crisis is a little cavalier. Nothing wrong with bold actions but do not take them lightly."

Cavalier?

Lemme put it this way. I'm at the point where if some state - TX, UT, wherever - legitamately and officially says "FU FedGov! We're going our own way and starting over from scratch with Liberty as our guiding star" I'm gone. I'll sell my paid-off house for a pittance or burn it to the ground if I had to, load the truck like the Beverly effing Hillbillies, and hit the road. I'll live in a damned tent if I had to.

Our Founders and original Patriots risked a lot more over a lot less. They had their Intolerable Acts and we have our own.

Posted by: Jaws at November 30, 2012 03:26 PM (4I3Uo)

111 I love Krauthammer. He should run for office. Campaign slogan: "Let's Roll".

Posted by: Lurker, yo at November 30, 2012 03:26 PM (tl7W6)

112 The idea that we shouldn't walk away but rather should present an alternative is laughable. The "alternative" is the tea party/terrorist/radical Representational Republic with God given rights protected by a limited Federal government as enumerated in the Constitution.
That idea has been repeatedly rejected by the MFM and the majority of the population.
Civil War baby--it's what's happening.

Posted by: Daybrother at November 30, 2012 03:26 PM (RoTUp)

113 Posted by: angienc at November 30, 2012 03:19 PM (w3JGl)
That was a single sentence. It may have even been grammatically correct.

That would be the only correct part.

Posted by: fluffy at November 30, 2012 03:27 PM (3SvjA)

114 JELLO:
Guys, Zero made a serious mistake. He asked that the debt ceiling power be taken out of Congress and given to the Executive.

OF COURSE, THIS MEANS THAT he does not have that power currently.

that was a very stupid move, I believe, very stupid.

Posted by: Prescient11 at November 30, 2012 03:27 PM (tVTLU)

115 What's the Constitutional crisis?



If the debt ceiling is hit, the Treasury can't borrow any more
money, period. Nobody will buy Treasury bills of questionable legality.
That's one place the markets still rule, there has to be a buyer for
bonds and those bonds have to be unquestionably legal or the investors
will not buy them. The only way to make them unquestionably legal is for
Congress to authorize them.

Posted by: rockmom at November 30, 2012 03:26 PM (qE3AR)

*gigglesnort*

Posted by: the Federal Reserve at November 30, 2012 03:27 PM (rmdRH)

116 there is no crisis. the law is perfectly clear. only if obama seeks to do things illegally is there a crisis.

Posted by: yankefifth at November 30, 2012 03:27 PM (Z9EHQ)

117 "Just something to keep in mind."

Why? Your statement suggests that our thoughtful arguments matter. They don't. We don't hold sway over anything.

Some of us say "go over the cliff."

Some of us say, "don't go over the cliff."

My point, it has ceased to matter what rational, thoughtful, serious people think in this country.

See: Obamaphone, vaginas, virginity votes, Benghazi, Fast and Furious, trillions in debt, 15% jobless, welfare explosion........

Posted by: mare at November 30, 2012 03:27 PM (A98Xu)

118 the only buyer for our bonds is China and they don't even want them anymore.

unless to prevent our collapse the world gives us the same treatment as Greece.

They aren't used to helping us. They would let us crash, citing their own problems

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:28 PM (Dnbau)

119 57 It's time to get nasty with Democrats. And that means on a personal and business level. De-friend and Di-vorce. Know anyone who voted for Obama, scream in their faces, then break up with them.

Let’s boycott blue state America. Don’t buy any products made in Obama voting states. Don’t spend tourist dollars to Obama states including Florida. Definitely do not give money for hurricane relief or other national disasters in Obama-voting states.
Let it flood and burn.
Time to get brutally nasty and vicious with Democrat friends, neighbors, lovers and business associates. Tell them all to ‘F’ off today!

Posted by: Raquel at November 30, 2012 03:13 PM (IJOxR)

--Once I saw the county-by-county map, I decided to boycott Minnesota, which unfortunately means including the (apparently) Demotard city of East Grand Forks, which has a nice cheap movie theater for first-run movies --including free drink and popcorn refills. With a seven-month old baby it's an easy call for now, but when he gets older it will be tougher to follow through.

Posted by: logprof at November 30, 2012 03:28 PM (gBuIk)

120 Let it burn. Our side has all the guns anyhow.

Posted by: J. Moses Browning at November 30, 2012 03:28 PM (DAfG4)

121 Who has more firearms?
Conservatives or liberals who espouse the outright ban of owning firearms?
That said, I'm really not worried about Obama seizing power via tyranny. Even he's not stupid or narcissitic enough to try something like that.

Posted by: Hoi Polloi Wingnutia at November 30, 2012 03:28 PM (xvtYZ)

122 [sometime in the near future]

"That's some barn burner ya got going there, Dems!" [sfx - sluuurrrrrpp] "Luckily I got my Slurpee with me."

Posted by: Count de Monet at November 30, 2012 03:29 PM (BAS5M)

123 JELLO:
Guys, Zero made a serious mistake. He asked that the debt ceiling power be taken out of Congress and given to the Executive.

OF COURSE, THIS MEANS THAT he does not have that power currently.

that was a very stupid move, I believe, very stupid.
Posted by: Prescient11 at November 30, 2012 03:27 PM (tVTLU)

thats true

its an admission he does not have that power

makes it harder to do later on

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:29 PM (Dnbau)

124 75
You won.

You lead.


This! Otherwise what the hell did he run for? Dog Catcher?

Posted by: flmom at November 30, 2012 03:29 PM (nSjrf)

125 I just tweeted Sarah Palin and said I'd donate $100 to her favorite charity if she'd tweet "Let It Burn"

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at November 30, 2012 03:29 PM (piMMO)

126 Just.Too. Depressing.

Posted by: Janetoo at November 30, 2012 03:29 PM (/TVdO)

127 If this President somehow gets control over the debt ceiling, can a future President unilaterally lower the debt ceiling?

Posted by: Tonic Dog at November 30, 2012 03:29 PM (X/+QT)

128 good luck to those making $34 g's

enjoy the new tax

Posted by: akak at November 30, 2012 03:29 PM (eFroM)

129 #3.Posted by: akak at November 30, 2012 03:02 PM (eFroM)

Discharge and Pelosi should not be used in the same sentence. Or world.

Posted by: LASue at November 30, 2012 03:30 PM (gjIQF)

130 Cut jib and newsletter please

Posted by: Lord Humungous at November 30, 2012 03:30 PM (eqyeV)

131

Standing in line for bread might just wake up the zombies who stand in line for O'Phones.

humility
virtue

grow it

Posted by: beach at November 30, 2012 03:30 PM (LpQbZ)

132 Let. It. Burn. And pray that Republicans and Conservatives have more firepower for the coming crisis. I think we do. Most of the people who back the Dems and the Liberals and the Socialists (and worse) are lazy, uninformed, and unarmed. We can take them down. Peacefully even.

Posted by: dfbaskwill at November 30, 2012 03:30 PM (ndlFj)

133 If the debt ceiling is hit, the Treasury can't borrow any more money,
period. Nobody will buy Treasury bills of questionable legality. That's
one place the markets still rule, there has to be a buyer for bonds and
those bonds have to be unquestionably legal or the investors will not
buy them. The only way to make them unquestionably legal is for Congress
to authorize them.


The FED will call of Timmy and tell him to print more money. Timmy will give the money to the FED. The FED will take the newly printed bills along with other bills they already have, call of various intermediaries that they have and tell them to buy the bonds with the bills that the FED gives them, for the FED.

Timmy has more money and the FED holds the bonds.

If you're shocked by this don't be. Bernanke has been doing this for some time.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at November 30, 2012 03:30 PM (kqqGm)

134 We were in a Constitutional crisis the moment that the SCOAMF was elected the first time. It's just that it's becoming harder and harder to ignore.

Posted by: Stu-22 at November 30, 2012 03:30 PM (AiYlm)

135 This! Otherwise what the hell did he run for? Dog Catcher

***

For the state dinners

For the worldwide tours on AF1

For the tee time

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at November 30, 2012 03:30 PM (piMMO)

136

One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.


I'd rather fight Obama than somebody with balls like Woodrow Wilson.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at November 30, 2012 03:31 PM (IH2b5)

137 Is there a way, legally, that TFG could take total control away from the people in a "crisis?"Posted by: beach

If he crosses certain lines the House could ask SCOTUS for a ruling against his EO's.

However, SCOTUS can't enforce SC rulings. So it would be back to the Congress to do all of nothing. The House could put all Federal agency money in suspense I suppose, but like I wrote above, Obama could order that Federal IOU's are to be accepted and used in the meantime.

I doubt the GOP will have gone to those lengths, and, ultimately, once Obama announces on a live TV broadcast for all citizens to harass the GOP, the GOP will fold.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 30, 2012 03:31 PM (JEpGb)

138 Lemme put it this way. I'm at the point where if some state - TX, UT, wherever - legitamately and officially says "FU FedGov! We're going our own way and starting over from scratch with Liberty as our guiding star" I'm gone. I'll sell my paid-off house for a pittance or burn it to the ground if I had to, load the truck like the Beverly effing Hillbillies, and hit the road. I'll live in a damned tent if I had to.

Our Founders and original Patriots risked a lot more over a lot less. They had their Intolerable Acts and we have our own.
Posted by: Jaws at November 30, 2012 03:26 PM (4I3Uo)

yes cavalier. you are romanticizing the I am going to give it all up and go somewhere else option. admittedly it is an attractive option, however, it is not the correct option at this time. our founding fathers pledged lives fortunes and sacred honor in establishing our country and you seem willing to give it up for a lot less.

Posted by: yankefifth at November 30, 2012 03:31 PM (Z9EHQ)

139 One reason I don't ascribe to the "give Obama whatever he wants" school of thought is that the economy is slowly starting to revive, mostly because the housing market has finally hit bottom and is crawling back to life. If we give Obama what he wants on taxes and spending, then the liberals will crow for another generation about how their policyof higher taxes and more spending works and lower taxes don't produce economic growth.

Posted by: rockmom at November 30, 2012 03:31 PM (NYnoe)

140 Once I saw the county-by-county map, I decided to boycott Minnesota, which unfortunately means including the (apparently) Demotard city of East Grand Forks, which has a nice cheap movie theater for first-run movies --including free drink and popcorn refills. With a seven-month old baby it's an easy call for now, but when he gets older it will be tougher to follow through.
Posted by: logprof at November 30, 2012 03:28 PM (gBuIk)

oh man! I went to school at UND? How is it? Have the demtards taken over there too? Is Whitey's Bar still around (the actual name, I know, racciist)

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:31 PM (Dnbau)

141 Obama is quite ruthless with his domestic enemies. It's the foreign ones that he bows to and makes concessions to.

Posted by: ejo at November 30, 2012 03:32 PM (GXvSO)

142

Bonus points for letting it burn.
All these fuckheads around the world that support scoamf go down to.

Posted by: YIKES! at November 30, 2012 03:32 PM (mETGQ)

143
Obama thinks the president's job is to be the oversee-er, taking credit for the good stuff, passing the buck on the bad stuff.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:32 PM (jUytm)

144
#BringItOn

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at November 30, 2012 03:33 PM (IH2b5)

145 And what will be the recourse?

Soap box, ballet box, cartridge box. These things work out one way or the other.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 30, 2012 03:33 PM (QupBk)

146 I dearly miss my Dad, but I'm grateful he isn't around to see this.

What makes it all so hard to take is that it is more or less what the most dire predictions were back when I was in high school, during the Ford/Carter years. The. Most. Dire. The predictions that even I, who was a conservative back then as well, laughed at.

And to think I scrupulously avoided drug and alcohol abuse all that time! What a waste.

Posted by: Otis Criblecoblis at November 30, 2012 03:33 PM (IlZPo)

147 @ 138 "Sacred honor"

Your rang?

Posted by: Will Folks at November 30, 2012 03:33 PM (WDCYi)

148 you mean executive orders and martial law?
Posted by: yankefifth at November 30, 2012 03:25 PM (Z9EHQ)


No, those are gives.

I mean beyond that. Because martial law won't stop the revolt. I have trouble even believing the military would listen to that pos. I am sure it would at the very least be divided.

Posted by: beach at November 30, 2012 03:33 PM (LpQbZ)

149
quick, name all of Obama's original ideas!

...

okay, name just one

...

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:34 PM (jUytm)

150 You don't have to impeach Obama. Impeach every single impeachable underling that carries out his orders. Right and left.

Posted by: Sukie Tawdry at November 30, 2012 03:34 PM (MPtFW)

151 No worries here people.

We've got everything taken care of.

/btw, do you know our friend, SMOD?

Posted by: the Mayans at November 30, 2012 03:34 PM (z63Tr)

152 What happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised?

The sled concession in Jellystone will be halted.

Posted by: Ronster at November 30, 2012 03:34 PM (nQMHQ)

153 Obama thinks the president's job is to be the oversee-er, taking credit for the good stuff, passing the buck on the bad stuff. Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:32 PM (jUytm)

Sadly, I believe that to be a completely accurate characterization.

He's never worked at a real job in his life. He's baffled as to why he should have to start now.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at November 30, 2012 03:35 PM (sbV1u)

154 This post is conflating two separate issues. First is the sequestration and tax hikes. Those are automatic if nothing is done. The second, raising the debt ceiling, does have the risk of government shutdown and granny not getting her checks. Both are occurring within a similar time span but raising the debt ceiling is an affirmative vote. The first issue, let it burn and pass a two year extension of the tax cuts which will go nowhere. Taxes rise, recession deepends. The second, pass the debt ceiling raise with the tax cut extension, Senate walks the plank or Obama vetoes, govt. shutdown. Only offer short term debt ceiling votes coupled with continuing bites out of spending. No Dem. budget, no peace.


Posted by: wg at November 30, 2012 03:35 PM (mXRhV)

155 Thunderb:

Exactly!! And his statement to Russia's PM that this is his "last election" also is very good.

He has admitted that Congress controls the debt ceiling. The more I see it, the more I think the GOP HAS ALL THE POWER HERE. The GOP was very very smart to focus and cave on some revenue.

NOW IT'S UP TO THE LEFTIES TO GET REAL ON CUTS. This is the fucking debate that we should have been having this entire fucking election.

So the GOP can say they were willing to raise taxes just to get some kind of sustainable budget deal. They can also say that the demorats proposed NOTHING.

So let America feel the pain of the fucking welfare state. Let all taxes go in and deep cuts happen. And then REFUSE to raise the fucking debt ceiling one fucking penny.

And the demorats refusal to act like fucking adults will finally come home to roost. But REPEAT the message over and over and over and over:
demorats refuse to act like adults and try to balance the budget. PERIOD.

Posted by: Prescient11 at November 30, 2012 03:35 PM (tVTLU)

156 quick, name all of Obama's original ideas!
... okay, name just one
...

Posted by: soothsayer


7 new states is pretty damned original.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 30, 2012 03:35 PM (JEpGb)

157
>
139 One reason I don't ascribe to the "give Obama whatever he wants" school of thought is that the economy is slowly starting to revive, mostly because the housing market has finally hit bottom and is crawling back to life. If we give Obama what he wants on taxes and spending, then the liberals will crow for another generation about how their policyof higher taxes and more spending works and lower taxes don't produce economic growth.
Posted by: rockmom


It doesn't matter if you give them what they want or not. If you go along, after it doesn't work they'll just say "oh, it wasn't big enough." That's what happened with the stimulus. Didn't work, they said 800 billion was too small, needed to be 2-3 trillion.

don't give it, #LetItBurn (that is, allow the sequester)

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at November 30, 2012 03:35 PM (IH2b5)

158 I really don't fear a police state here. I don't think the military would support it, nor would the citizenry stand it. There are too many military grade weapons in civilian hands, and even if you add up all the members of federal agencies who would enforce it (assuming 100% which is not going to happen) they are still outnumbered 20 to 1. We will not be crushed by Orwell, but are very much in danger of being enslaved by Huxley. (Tip to whoever posted that this morning)

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 30, 2012 03:36 PM (t06LC)

159 quick, name all of Obama's original ideas!



...



okay, name just one



...

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:34 PM (jUytm)


He picked the paste eater for Vice President.Does that count?

Posted by: YIKES! at November 30, 2012 03:36 PM (mETGQ)

160 #133 Oh, you and I know that the Fed is doing this already. But 99% of America doesn't know. They will, if it's the only way Obama has to keep spending. And I don't think they will like it very much. Even most high-school dropouts know instinctively that you can't just print money to pay your bills. Which is why Obama won't ever do that overtly. Instead, we'll get the Cancel Grandma's Social Security Check and Close The National Parks gambit.

Posted by: rockmom at November 30, 2012 03:36 PM (qE3AR)

161 http://tinyurl.com/ae5fywx


Here's some math thatthe JEFhad better learn.

Posted by: Larsen E. Whipsnade at November 30, 2012 03:36 PM (6BgmB)

162 Today I learned that I can take most of my guns to Panama, eventually.

Only Trashcan man can save us now.

Posted by: SpongeBob Saget at November 30, 2012 03:36 PM (epxV4)

163 121 Who has more firearms?
Conservatives or liberals who espouse the outright ban of owning firearms?
That said, I'm really not worried about Obama seizing power via tyranny. Even he's not stupid or narcissitic enough to try something like that.
Posted by: Hoi Polloi Wingnutia at November 30, 2012 03:28 PM (xvtYZ)

The man is that stupid. He caon't operate an umbrella in proximity to an open gate.

Much of what he knows is wrong, even the things he was taught in college.

Posted by: Minuteman at November 30, 2012 03:36 PM (qs9G3)

164 What happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised?

The GOP leadership will be savaged in the press.......Can't have that.

Posted by: Daybrother at November 30, 2012 03:36 PM (RoTUp)

165 Granny not getting her check is a choice by the Executive. We have plenty of money coming in on a daily basis to pay slightly more than half our planned expenditures. What gets paid and how much is a political choice.

If we only had an opposition party to point this out.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 30, 2012 03:37 PM (QupBk)

166 Obviously boehner and company aren't good at negotiating, let's bring in trump?

Posted by: so joeindc44 is full of all sorts of hindsight now, like JFK? at November 30, 2012 03:37 PM (QxSug)

167 Instead, we'll get the Cancel Grandma's Social Security Check and Close The National Parks gambit.
Posted by: rockmom


The collapse started when they began QEternity. We are all just standing under SMOD right now.

Posted by: Daybrother at November 30, 2012 03:38 PM (RoTUp)

168

I was listening to yesterday's Levin show via the web today, and he had Dick Morris on (yeah, I know, I know), but he and E. McGann have written a book:

Here Come the Black Helicopters!: UN Global Governance and the Loss of Freedom

You and I know what they are talking about -- O'Sh*t and Co. giving away our sovereignty, and Mark brought up the obvious: TFG is against outsourcing, yet will outsource our entire country.

Posted by: beach at November 30, 2012 03:38 PM (LpQbZ)

169
oh man! I went to school at UND? How is it? Have the demtards taken over there too? Is Whitey's Bar still around (the actual name, I know, racciist)

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:31 PM (Dnbau)

--I think on that map GF was still GOP. As you know, though, unfortunately they elected another wolf-in-sheep's clothing D to the Senate. Whitey's is in the downtown part, right? It sounds familiar, but I have never been there (I'm a BWW guy).

Posted by: logprof at November 30, 2012 03:38 PM (gBuIk)

170 Yes, and by the way, I think it's time to start a:
BOYCOTT MINNESOTA

Movement. Those fucks couldn't even get it right with Reagan.

So fuck those stupid honkies, I hope they all drown in their shitty lakes!!!

BOYCOTT MINNESOTA - Land of stupid white people that vote for the ghetto everytime....

Posted by: Prescient11 at November 30, 2012 03:38 PM (tVTLU)

171 The Congress shall have Power...To borrow Money on the credit of the United States...

Not exactly sure why any District Court Judge asked to issue an injunction against the President for trying to borrow money above the debt ceiling enacted by Congress wouldn't do so. If the Constitution doesn't prohibit the President from doing that, then we don't have a Constitution anymore.

Posted by: The Regular Guy at November 30, 2012 03:38 PM (qHCyt)

172 139
One reason I don't ascribe to the "give Obama whatever he wants" school
of thought is that the economy is slowly starting to revive, mostly
because the housing market has finally hit bottom and is crawling back
to life. If we give Obama what he wants on taxes and spending, then the
liberals will crow for another generation about how their policyof
higher taxes and more spending works and lower taxes don't produce
economic growth.

Posted by: rockmom at November 30, 2012 03:31 PM (NYnoe)

One problem, the housing market hasn't hit bottom yet. Banks are holding off putting their foreclosed inventory on the market. Once those go on the market, prices will fall again.

Posted by: MrCaniac at November 30, 2012 03:38 PM (Zd/NW)

173 The GOP leadership will be savaged in the press.......Can't have that. Posted by: Daybrother at November 30, 2012 03:36 PM (RoTUp)

OK, That made me LOL.

Which I seriously neede after the last thread.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at November 30, 2012 03:38 PM (sbV1u)

174 Look, you can't cut spending, errrr investments during an economy like this. What specific investments I'm talking about, I'll get back to you on that

Posted by: Barack Obama, born in Keynesia at November 30, 2012 03:39 PM (60GaT)

175 I'm not exactly sure how Obama raises the debt ceiling all on his own. If he tries to pull a Palpatine and go dictator on us, he'd either be removed from office or if his party circles the wagons, you'll see dozens of states tell the federal government they're getting the hell out.

Posted by: Adam_ME at November 30, 2012 03:39 PM (m0Jrn)

176 Also, why the fuck aren't we talking about the fact that if a big tax increase is going to throw us into another recession, that means the economy NOW is only being propped up by the BUSH TAX CUTS. I've been tweeting the shit out of this lately, and liberals don't like it very much.

Posted by: rockmom at November 30, 2012 03:39 PM (qE3AR)

177 121 Who has more firearms?

Conservatives or liberals who espouse the outright ban of owning firearms?

That said, I'm really not worried about Obama seizing power via
tyranny. Even he's not stupid or narcissitic enough to try something
like that.
+++

LOL. I work part time at a tv station. One morning, on the air, one of our weekend anchors, who also has a radio gig, mentioned that he hates guns, is afraid of them and won't have them in his house.

Camera guy- black man- and I looked at each other, and have decided that when the sh*t hits the fan, we're going to hit the anchors house first. And we won't even need a gun, we can just use our fingers under our coat.

Posted by: shibumi at November 30, 2012 03:39 PM (z63Tr)

178 The second term has always been about Second Revolution, Lenin style. Many misunderstood Obama when he continued to blame Bush across his four years of the first term and continues to do so. This has been a subtle tell that Obama, like Lenin, blames his difficulties on the fact that while he threw out the old sovereign, he still has the old sovereign's system.

That's about to change. Hopefully most here understand this isn't a conspiratorial rant. As a scholar in political theory and one who has particularly studied the transformations and the state of exception in both the Soviet revolutions and the German seizure of the Weimar state, I'm quite aware not only of this willful direction, but know it is well studied by several of Obama's principle advisers.

Second term is where the state as we know it will be suspended and "transformed" to a "more effective system that represents the needs of the people." Obama's had other tells and warnings of this when he's been in foreign lands accepting of this totalitarian, single-party rule (e.g. China). He merely needs the crisis now to issue the orders and will either get the right to totally give into his absurd demands (leading to accelerated economic collapse) or he'll spring it now. Either way, Second Revolution is assured.

Sadly, the people of the United States (the top 2% and the bottom 50%) desire this as they seek certainty now above all else. That's all it takes to finish what the 100 Year Progressive Pre-Reich prepared for. There's really nothing the hopeless Republicans can do other than appease. Did you wonder why Romney went to Obama's office? Why Boehner is lacking a spine? They just hope to have some bureaucratic position in the new Obama Soviet Republic and keep as much of their personal wealth as they can.

It's no longer about the middle class. You lost in the election.

Posted by: Multitude at November 30, 2012 03:39 PM (bpONz)

179 According to Ramesh Ponnuru, Esteemed Republican, the GOP has 2 options if no deal emerges:

1. The high-risk one is to pass an extension of all the tax cuts, watch Senate Democrats block it, watch tax rates rise for everyone, and try to blame Obama and the Democrats for this result.

2. The low-risk one is to pass an extension of the middle-class tax cuts, which presumably the Democrats would have to pass, and watch taxes for high earners rise. That way at least Republicans wouldn’t get blamed for middle-class tax increases.

Ramesh likes the 2nd option so I'm assuming this is a lock for the Party of Stupid. Oh, I'm sure they'll throw in some additional concessions too. And if they don't resolve the debt limit, just think, we get to go through this farce again in a few weeks.

Posted by: jeannebodine at November 30, 2012 03:39 PM (48+2q)

180 Speaking of--

Obama owning it--

They are protesting Obama in Egypt.

*Gasp*

And NBC covered it.


wth?

Posted by: tasker at November 30, 2012 03:40 PM (r2PLg)

181 So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.

The Republic is a sham already and has been for years. This is an administrative state governed by bureaucratic tyranny with occasional elections that nearly always increase the power of the bureaucracy.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows 47% got a fever and Uncle Sugar is the only cure at November 30, 2012 03:40 PM (mukPq)

182 Gawd, 4 more years of this limp wristed, lisping mo fo. Not sure I can take it. LIB.

Posted by: Infidel at November 30, 2012 03:40 PM (O/fK8)

183 Soooo... give him dictatorial power willingly or he'll take it with a fight. I say fight it. What the fuck, eh?

Oh, and nice job on that election America. High five!

Posted by: sgr at November 30, 2012 03:40 PM (xa5GW)

184
The SCOAMTT's best idea to date is 'roof hits'.

Posted by: Justamom at November 30, 2012 03:40 PM (tWrwm)

185 Anybody besides me old enough to remember that old James Gang hit "Walk Away?"

Posted by: WalrusRex at November 30, 2012 03:41 PM (hyB08)

186
What's funny is if Beohner actually does just fold his hand, I believe the Democrats will say hey, waitaminute now, that's not how this is supposed to happen...

The plan is to

1. Drag the Republicans into a fight

2. Split the party

3. Get Republican fingerprints all over a shitty deal with tax hikes

4. Blame the Republicans for Obama's shitty economy

5. Win big in 2014

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:41 PM (jUytm)

187 170

didn't Romney get mid-40s support in MN? yeeeaahh...that general region is where the GOP needs to make more inroads, let's not be silly here

Posted by: JDP at November 30, 2012 03:41 PM (60GaT)

188 BOYCOTT MINNESOTA - Land of stupid white people that vote for the ghetto everytime....Posted by: Prescient11

"Boycotts" are for impotent losers.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 30, 2012 03:41 PM (JEpGb)

189 #158

The Obama administration has a lot more to fear from an angry populace then the reverse.

I'm all in for this. Let's have the Clinton tax regime again, and let's have Obama take all the "credit".

The GOP isn't being given an inch here, so they should simply walk away. They're going to get the blame anyway, so they might as well accept it, and let the Obama administration shoulder some responsibility for the tax increases Obama has been crowing about for five years now.

Posted by: looking closely at November 30, 2012 03:41 PM (PwGfd)

190 be savaged anyway

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:41 PM (Dnbau)

191 If Obama chooses to ignore the debt ceiling, FoxNews is likely the only one who calls him out on it, and the public reaction will fall along party lines. Not much of a problem, really.

Posted by: JDTAY at November 30, 2012 03:41 PM (a0nis)

192 Just walk away.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttKJwvFIgw

Posted by: Lord Humungus at November 30, 2012 03:41 PM (1o4B5)

193 Problem with us conservatives, is not the social issues. Rather, it’s we are too damned polite, and too damned cautious.

This is no time to be “safe.” This is the time to get down in the gutter. Di-vorce and De-friend every Democrat in your life. It’s a nationwide movement catching on. Join today!

Posted by: Raquel at November 30, 2012 03:42 PM (IJOxR)

194 #139 It's picking up in my area, for sure. Not all the banks have a lot of REO either. The national numbers on inventories and sales are looking better than they have for some time. This is because the government has been gridlocked for 2 years and stopped trying to meddle in the market to prop it up for some. Those REO properties are concentrated in a handful of markets that are still weak andf may get a little weaker, but the rest of the country is starting to pick up.

Posted by: rockmom at November 30, 2012 03:42 PM (NYnoe)

195 Republicans should mention-

The Democrat Majority Senate--

every damn chance they get.

Posted by: tasker at November 30, 2012 03:42 PM (r2PLg)

196 >>The Walk Away/Let It Burn option is growing on people. One cautionary
note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may
undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine
collapse of the Republic.

Tax increases and sequestration are going to wreck the Republic?

I don't "get" how that's going to happen.

They'll just make a lot of people a LOT more unhappy, which, to my mind, isn't necessarily a bad thing over the LONG term.


Posted by: looking closely at November 30, 2012 03:42 PM (PwGfd)

197 152
What happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised?



The sled concession in Jellystone will be halted.

Posted by: Ronster at November 30, 2012 03:34 PM (nQMHQ)

Ranger Smith will not be working, and I get all the pic-a-nic basketsI can!!!!

Posted by: Yogi Bear at November 30, 2012 03:43 PM (Zd/NW)

198
I'm confused...

Does the 'Let it Burn/Walk Away' scenario involve letting Barky have what he wants?

Because I'm against that.

I'm for letting *all* the Bush Tax Cuts expire.
All of them.
Let taxes go up for everyone, and let the Obots feel some of the pain.

I'm not for raising the Debt Limit either.
It's high enough already.

So is this what is meant by the 'Walk Away' scenario?

Posted by: wheatie at November 30, 2012 03:43 PM (CM59X)

199 >>>Just something to keep in mind. Tyrants are always looking for pretexts to rule without any check.


I know the risks. I also know appeasing a tyrant just delays the inevitable while the tyrant grows stronger.

LiB

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at November 30, 2012 03:43 PM (/jmMj)

200
The Democrats want to split the party. That means the idea is to get 70ish less-conservative Republicans to join the Democrats in the House.

That will accomplish

1. a "bipartisan" bill

2. 70 very vulnerable tax-raising Republicans to target in 2014

It's a good plan; exactly what I'd do.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:43 PM (jUytm)

201 Posted by: Adam_ME at November 30, 2012 03:39 PM (m0Jrn)


How about NOWAY.




.

Posted by: The Dems, MFM, Hollywood, Academia protecting the scoamf at November 30, 2012 03:44 PM (mETGQ)

202 Tyrants are always looking for pretexts to rule without any check.

Obama will do this with or without the Republicans' help.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit, rooting for SMOD or the Mayans, whichever comes first at November 30, 2012 03:44 PM (4df7R)

203 179

it's not like there's a ton of good options here. Everyone's shitting on Boehner and McConnell (which I don't always get, I mean I don't think they're brilliant thinkers but as far as politicos they haven't really been conciliatory to Obama at all,) but if there isn't some kinda deal they're gonna have a hard time arguing against the inevitable "GOP held your taxes hostage for Teh Rich" narrative.

Posted by: JDP at November 30, 2012 03:45 PM (60GaT)

204
The Democrat Majority Senate--
------------------
People have no idea what this means. Instead, just say, "Obama wants a recession."

When it happens---and it will---then maybe people will connect the two.

Posted by: MJ at November 30, 2012 03:45 PM (TR60b)

205 People have this fucking retarded perceptive where the national debt and the federal deficit is just an imaginary fantasy number created by flying purple monkeys, and because it's not real. We've become so insulated and as a result of that we're constantly give the commie lib fuckholes a pass.

LET IT BURN. It's not unpatriotic to burn the house down if it's the only thing that will wake people the fuck up.

Posted by: Christina Hendricks's Mighty Jugs are Really SMOD in Disguise at November 30, 2012 03:45 PM (v6GqR)

206 The only argument against letting it burn is the "media will savage republicans" argument, and since we know the media will savage them regardless of what they do it really isn't an argument at all. Conclusion? Let it burn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJW7foStBY

Posted by: booger at November 30, 2012 03:46 PM (HI6wa)

207 #198

That's my take as well.

For ten years the Democrats have been demogoguing the "Bush tax cuts for the rich". . . OK, lets reverse them, and see how that works out for everyone.


Posted by: looking closely at November 30, 2012 03:46 PM (PwGfd)

208
So is this what is meant by the 'Walk Away' scenario?


"Walk Away" is the prelude to "Let It Burn". In order for the Burn to happen, TFG has to assume full control and start hitting the ACTIVATE button on all his socialist plans. This is the way the Burn starts.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 03:46 PM (GQ8sn)

209
This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.

The alternative is to watch the Republic turn into an Empire. And Stuttering McClusterfuck of Clan McClusterfuck is no Caesar Augustus.

But mark this: there is no easy answer. There is no quick fix. There will be pain. By postponing the pain, we're allowing the next generation(s) to pay that price, and the more we wait, the higher it will be for them.

Otherwise, yes, TehFred was right: This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie ® at November 30, 2012 03:47 PM (1hM1d)

210 --I think on that map GF was still GOP. As you know, though, unfortunately they elected another wolf-in-sheep's clothing D to the Senate. Whitey's is in the downtown part, right? It sounds familiar, but I have never been there (I'm a BWW guy).
Posted by: logprof at November 30, 2012 03:38 PM (gBuIk)


Whiteys was downtown, had glass block windows in front, used to be a Capone hangout during prohibition allegedly. Man ... the Coulee, fans throwing frozen badgers on the ice when we played WI, rush week. So much fun. Whats BWW?

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:47 PM (Dnbau)

211 Rush Limbaugh argues in favor of Just Walk Away. He believes that Obama doesn't care if our economy goes into a depression, especially since Obama thinks he can pin the blame on the Republicans. Rush says: just walk away and make sure the only fingerprints on this are Democrat. (He figures they will try to blame it on the Republicans no matter what, and he just says make sure that will be as difficult as possible.)

Video link at the end after all the quotes:

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/11/29/quotes-of-the-day-1214/

Posted by: mr_jack at November 30, 2012 03:47 PM (TMG3G)

212 Weft-cut loop. This is a fun boycott. Really meant to completely make fun of those fucking idiots.

Ramesh P. is a fucking idiot.

If you can't walk away from a deal, then you are getting fucked, not negotiating.

Period.

Posted by: Prescient11 at November 30, 2012 03:47 PM (tVTLU)

213 "This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic."

The federal government working as designed is not a crisis. A President being impeached for exceeding the bounds of his authority is not a crisis. It's what the Constitution is for, dammit.

Throughout most of our country's history the executive and the legislative branches have been at each other's throats, and that's exactly how it is meant to be. This obsession with avoiding unseemly inter-branch conflict is what got us into this ridiculous situation.

Posted by: GalosGann at November 30, 2012 03:47 PM (T3KlW)

214 Passion Pit. Take A Walk. Very fitting

Partial lyrics:
We had taxes we had bills

We had a lifestyle of fun

And tonight I swear I'll come home

And we'll make love like we're young

And tomorrow you'll cook dinner

For the neighbors and their kids

We can rip apart those socialists

And all their damn taxes

You see I am no criminal

I'm down on both bad knees

I'm just too much a coward

To admit when I'm in need



http://youtu.be/dZX6Q-Bj_


Posted by: Deli LLama at November 30, 2012 03:47 PM (lGu1O)

215 "Just something to keep in mind. Tyrants are always looking for pretexts to rule without any check."

i can think of at least one other Constitutional check on your scenario Ace.

Posted by: redc1c4 at November 30, 2012 03:48 PM (8MasJ)

216 >>they haven't really been conciliatory to Obama at all

Remember the last couple of debt ceiling increases?

Posted by: SpongeBob Saget at November 30, 2012 03:48 PM (epxV4)

217 I'm for reversing all of the Bush tax cuts too. People will be surprised to find out how many of themselves are "rich".

Posted by: JDTAY at November 30, 2012 03:48 PM (a0nis)

218 i guess they could walk away, argue the demands were too unreasonable and then immediately propose restoration of the middle-class tax cuts/defense in the new year, and fight over the top tax rates. dunno how well it'd work though.

Posted by: JDP at November 30, 2012 03:48 PM (60GaT)

219
Also, watch for someone in TehWon's camp to mention in passing that the 22nd amendment needs to be repealed. Maybe Axelrod will astroturf up some "popular" support for it.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie ® at November 30, 2012 03:48 PM (1hM1d)

220
"One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic."
Seriously, Ace? Letting taxes go up and cutting spending will cause the undoing of the Republic? I assume you're also folding in raising the debt ceiling, but even going over that won't cause us to split asunder. Get a grip.
Anyway, this is just posturing and negotiating on O's part. Even if they don't reach an agreement before the end of the year, they will soon after.
Republicans ought to agree to raising taxes on the high earners in principle,but not pass anything until they get Obama to lay out how he's going to deliverthe 2.5 timesthat amount in budget cuts/entitlement reform he promised while campaigning. This will be like pulling teeth, but after the press and Obama blame them for "wrecking" the economy, they won't get even that when it comes time to finalize a deal.
Alternatively, they could pass the tax increases but go on record that they won't vote to raise the debt ceiling until O agrees to the necessary cuts and reforms. America will see that Congress did what it was asked, while the President failed to do what he promised. Any consequences will be on his head.

Posted by: Pigilito at November 30, 2012 03:48 PM (yw6Yn)

221 The biggest problem with the Republicans is they do not have a leader who can communicate effectively.


What's going to happen is the Republicans will take all the blame and there will be a Socialist takeover of the House in 2012, then we are, for once and for all, screwed.

Posted by: MoeRon at November 30, 2012 03:49 PM (PKCB1)

222 It'd be kinda neat to turn on C-SPAN and see some sorta post-modern Preston Brooks [R-LiB] whaling on some poor sumbich on the Senate floor, wouldn't it?

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 30, 2012 03:49 PM (3ZtZW)

223
Remember the last couple of debt ceiling increases?


...and the Continuing Resolutions (budget extensions)

Posted by: soothsayer at November 30, 2012 03:49 PM (jUytm)

224 According to Ramesh Ponnuru, Esteemed Republican, the GOP has 2 options if no deal emerges:

---

Rush enunciated a third option today. And it's perfect. The Donks get to claim they raised taxes. The Rethugs get to claim they didn't. And nobody get hurts except the country, the economy, and the people.

Posted by: WalrusRex at November 30, 2012 03:49 PM (hyB08)

225 But mark this: there is no easy answer. There is no quick fix. There will be pain. By postponing the pain, we're allowing the next generation(s) to pay that price, and the more we wait, the higher it will be for them.

I for one do not want future generations looking at MY generation the way I currently look at the worthless, useless, gormless 60's generation.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit, rooting for SMOD or the Mayans, whichever comes first at November 30, 2012 03:49 PM (4df7R)

226 I meant 2014....I'm already traumatized!

Posted by: MoeRon at November 30, 2012 03:49 PM (PKCB1)

227 No, I'm NOT kidding. I didn't say that just for the hell of it.

Posted by: Admiral Ackbar at November 30, 2012 03:50 PM (RD7QR)

228 Tax increases and sequestration are going to wreck the Republic?

I don't "get" how that's going to happen.


Because the tax increases and sequestration still bring the prospect of hitting the debt ceiling again. If the GOP held out and refused to increase it, that means government shutdown.

The question is- would Obama try to take things a step further and attempt to bypass Congress completely.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 30, 2012 03:50 PM (SY2Kh)

229 I really think #178 is right.

Posted by: doug at November 30, 2012 03:50 PM (TEIU+)

230 Something to remember about sequestration:

Obama signed it into law.

He figured he was going to be able to go back later and negotiate better terms.

Of course, he, his party, and the enemedia are going to all try to pin this on the GOP.

The response, practiced and polished and drilled to perfection has to be, from every Republican officeholder and candidate, these words:

"Sequestration is President Obama's idea. Bob Woodward confirms in his latest book that the sequestration scheme came from President Obama's White House in the first place. And sequestration is the plan that President Obama signed into law. If you don't like the consequences of this law, please direct your complaints to President Obama. It was not a Republican idea. It was President Obama's idea."

Make him own it.

Posted by: torquewrench at November 30, 2012 03:50 PM (ymG7s)

231
Let it burn? Passé.
I'm thinking more Super Nova or better yet Gamma Ray Burst.

Posted by: YIKES! at November 30, 2012 03:50 PM (mETGQ)

232 215
"Just something to keep in mind. Tyrants are always looking for pretexts to rule without any check."

i can think of at least one other Constitutional check on your scenario Ace.


Posted by: redc1c4

Heh, we'll see. It's a fine line between treason and upholding the Constitution.

Posted by: SFGoth at November 30, 2012 03:50 PM (dZ756)

233 2nd Ammendment has always seemed like a check from my standpoint.

Posted by: John Stark Dark at November 30, 2012 03:50 PM (PALjS)

234 Relatively speaking, Obama's first term will go down as a comedy. The second term will be tragedy.




Can I butcher a quote or what?

Posted by: Count de Monet at November 30, 2012 03:51 PM (BAS5M)

235 Martial law is just another form of tax.

Posted by: Dread Chief Justice Roberts at November 30, 2012 03:51 PM (RoTUp)

236 Why is this so fucking difficult?????????????

The GOP is in an excellent position. The rats kept bitching that the GOP has refused to raise taxes, period. After the election, the GOP has announced, let's make a deal, we'll cave on our core principle of raising taxes.

THE ONUS IS ON THE DEMORATS. The talking points on this are priceless:

1) Demorats love Clinton so much, what is wrong going back to those tax rates.

2) These taxes are just a taste of what it will cost everyone to fund this fucking welfare state, THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING....

3) We need to make serious cuts, the first place to look is WELFARE..... Demorats won't touch anything and just want to raise taxes. Who is the adult here. We won't do so without balancing the budget.

FUCKING PERIOD. Why are we so scared. This is the moment and we hold ALL THE FUCKING CARDS. Very smart to offer revenue up front. They should be off guard.

Posted by: Prescient11 at November 30, 2012 03:51 PM (tVTLU)

237 >>So is this what is meant by the 'Walk Away' scenario?

I'm not fond of the "Let it Burn" or "Walk Away" movements, not only for substantive but semantic reasons.

The GOP should simply (1) refuse to raise the debt ceiling; and (2) refuse to support any increase in taxes. If these things happen over GOP objection, fine. We can say we told you so, if anyone is around to listen. But I don't want to be in a position to have to look at the desolation and say "I did this, I let it happen, on purpose."

I much prefer "Stand Your Ground" to "Let it Burn" or "Walk Away."

Posted by: angler at November 30, 2012 03:52 PM (SwjAj)

238 Just sent out Hard Rights 'Let it burn' to the lefties at work and the educated black guy at work who didn't vote for TFG. Somehow having three kids and a wife smartens people up regarding the economy.

Posted by: RWC at November 30, 2012 03:52 PM (fWAjv)

239 178 The second term has always been about Second Revolution, Lenin style.

It's no longer about the middle class. You lost in the election.
Posted by: Multitude at November 30, 2012 03:39 PM (bpONz)

Multitude, while Obama may be trying to use Lenin's game plan I believe the effort will fail. The template for this is, worst case, a variation of the break-up of Yugoslavia.

The Yugoslav Civil War was not merely a simple case of Croats versus Serbs versus Bosniaks. There will be States with some level of homogenity, that separate quickly, like Slovenia, and those, like Bosnia, have mixed population fighting over control of the same real estate.

Posted by: Minuteman at November 30, 2012 03:52 PM (qs9G3)

240 "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure."

Posted by: Ripley at November 30, 2012 03:53 PM (RoTUp)

241 "What happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised?"

Obama instructs the secretary of the treasury to ignore the law and acquire more debt, and nobody does a God-damned thing about it.

There's one simple test to judge what Obama will do: ask yourself which approach will tighten the manacles the most. Inevitably, that's the one he'll pick. He talks about Lincoln and FDR, but his real role-model is Robert Mugabe.

Posted by: Brown Line at November 30, 2012 03:53 PM (VrNoa)

242 We had that movie a year-and-a-half ago where Paul Ryan presented a budget, a serious real budget with real cuts. Obama was supposed to gave speech where he would respond with a counter offer. And what did he do? He gave a speech where he had Ryan sitting in the front row. He called the Ryan proposal un-American, insulted him, offered nothing, and ran on Mediscare in the next 18 months.

And they expect the Republicans are going to do this again? The Republicans are going to walk on this.


________________

Krauthammer is exactly right--here.

Posted by: tasker at November 30, 2012 03:53 PM (r2PLg)

243 Sockoff. Look, folks, the GOP can walk away. We can go over the fiscal cliff. We can get sequestration. It. Won't. Matter. The GOP will be blamed, we'll stumble along until the end of Barky's term, and the MSM will continue to tell everybody to Remain Calm, and the can will fly down the road a distance. There's a lot of failure in a great nation and we can rock along, steadily losing steam, for long enough that the people won't remember how great we once were. I feel bad for my stepsons, who will live in a greatly diminished nation, but all this struggling is for naught and I think I'm just going to buy guns, start drinking again, and watch the nation burn.

Posted by: joncelli at November 30, 2012 03:54 PM (RD7QR)

244 The problem with #178 re: Germany is that the military by-and-large despised Weimar. The top leadership, primarily Blomberg, thought they could control Hitler and thus made a deal with him. We saw how it worked out, but in contrast to Stalin, Hitler only had 1 or 2 generals executed (Schleicher and maybe one other). He did force out the recalcitrants, but they lived.

Posted by: SFGoth at November 30, 2012 03:54 PM (dZ756)

245 FIDO

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 03:54 PM (EKr9U)

246
207 #198

That's my take as well.

For ten years the Democrats have been demogoguing the "Bush tax cuts for the rich". . . OK, lets reverse them, and see how that works out for everyone.

------------

Yeah, exactly.

It would be a return to the 'Clinton Tax Rates'.
The Dems still love Clinton, and like to point to the "prosperity of the Clinton years".

So if they try to call it a 'tax hike'....then we should simply point out that it is a return to Clinton's tax rates.

Posted by: wheatie at November 30, 2012 03:54 PM (CM59X)

247
This 'make him own it' shit is a fantasy.

Please explain one thing that Obama has taken responsibility for or been held accountable for?

Posted by: MJ at November 30, 2012 03:55 PM (TR60b)

248 his real role-model is Robert Mugabe.


Posted by: Brown Line

Mugabe didn't eat dog.

Posted by: SFGoth at November 30, 2012 03:55 PM (dZ756)

249 #220 wrote "Any consequences will be on his head."

I wish I could concur. Unfortunately, we have a bastards running the "Free" press and America's IQ has never been lower, and gets lower everyday.

ALL THE BLAME will rest with the evil protect the rich Republicans. Chrissy Matthews will have to change his jockeyes 3 times a day, he'll be cumming in them so much. We have reached the point where 48 percent will be asked to foot the bill for 52 percent, and those numbers ain't gonna change until there's literally riots and blood in the streets.

Posted by: MoeRon at November 30, 2012 03:55 PM (PKCB1)

250 >>>The federal government working as designed is not a crisis. A President being impeached for exceeding the bounds of his authority is not a crisis. It's what the Constitution is for, dammit.

No but his caucus blocking conviction and removal from office is. And that is how it will happen.

If the Senate will not convict him, he is a dictator.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at November 30, 2012 03:55 PM (oZ6hC)

251 "suddenly assert sweeping power over
the purse -- sweeping aside the last real check on his power granted to
the [Parliament]"

Um.... yeah. Might I suggest a different tact... or I might had I still had a head to do so...

Posted by: King Charles I at November 30, 2012 03:56 PM (iJ3YG)

252 The Yugoslav Civil War was not merely a simple case of Croats versus Serbs versus Bosniaks. There will be States with some level of homogenity, that separate quickly, like Slovenia, and those, like Bosnia, have mixed population fighting over control of the same real estate.

---

Some of the most homogenous states are Dem ones, remarkably. Minnesota, Maine, and Vermont are whiter than the audience at a Barry Manilow concert.

OTOH, Louisiana and Mississippi may be solidly Republican at the national level but it's roughly a 60-40 split along ethnic lines.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at November 30, 2012 03:57 PM (e0xKF)

253 "thats true



"its an admission he does not have that power"


"makes it harder to do later on"

Bullshit. He said exactly the same thing about the DREAM act, and look where we are now.

When he changes his mind, who's going to call him on it? The courts? The MFM? Congress? There's conservative media, but it's preaching to the choir.


Posted by: Brown Line at November 30, 2012 03:57 PM (VrNoa)

254 LIB requires Obama to become a tyrant as an interim step. The "retirement plan" for tyrants as nations collapse is shall we say...often rather sudden, and very permanent.

Posted by: Winston Smith at November 30, 2012 03:57 PM (eZgIK)

255 The house is already burning. What is being debated now is whether we should turn around and acknowledge that it is burning, or just keep staring out the window until the roof collapses on our heads.

Posted by: Mob at November 30, 2012 03:57 PM (9DEGR)

256 The other option to a dictatorship is for the producers of the country to just go on strike... shut it down, advertise a week and have 40 million people not show up for 7 days.

It would take some high powered press or entertainment people on the right in addition to polititians and having some CEOs call for it also. Can you imagine if half of the airline pilots just took a week off? Food distributors?

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 30, 2012 03:58 PM (n/ubI)

257 The Republic is well-nigh dead. If Obama wants to take off the mask and reveal himself as a tyrant, so much the better.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at November 30, 2012 03:58 PM (ZMzpb)

258 at what point do we jump fro the burning house

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 03:58 PM (Dnbau)

259 The Cloward-Piven strategy. This is what he likely spent his time at Columbia studying and advocating.

Posted by: Chester Copperpot at November 30, 2012 03:58 PM (d4C+6)

260 @140 - Whitey's is still there; it's had a do-over but the horseshoe bar is still there. Still right there on the Red.

Posted by: Alte Schule at November 30, 2012 03:59 PM (MLJu8)

261 Obama could do anything and he will never be impeached or removed from office. His Presidency is too "historic" for that, God help us.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at November 30, 2012 03:59 PM (v8RoL)

262 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttKJwvFIgw

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 04:00 PM (EKr9U)

263 Obama is attempting a power grab and must be stopped. Obama = Morsy.

Posted by: rplat at November 30, 2012 04:00 PM (ew94K)

264 A tyrant looking for a suitable excuse?

There is but one answer to those who would ever seek to placate a would be tyrant.

"What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear,
or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and
slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may
take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

If this episode would provoke a crisis in the Republic then the Republic is already in crisis. Any man who facilitates the forging of our chains is a traitor to liberty and should be treated as such.

My children are too young for the fight, regardless of the outcome I would rather it be over before their time. So, if there is to be a fight, let it come. I repeat it, sir, let it come.

Posted by: ThomasD at November 30, 2012 04:00 PM (hpE7B)

265 @140 - Whitey's is still there; it's had a do-over but the horseshoe bar is still there. Still right there on the Red.
Posted by: Alte Schule at November 30, 2012 03:59 PM (MLJu

we used to go the the Ho for frat mixers, the Hub to get our fortunes told by some freaky fat lady in a wig and mardi gras type beads.. good times. I am so glad that ND has fracking and will weather this stuff

Posted by: Thunderb at November 30, 2012 04:00 PM (Dnbau)

266
208
So is this what is meant by the 'Walk Away' scenario?


"Walk Away" is the prelude to "Let It Burn". In order for the Burn to happen, TFG has to assume full control and start hitting the ACTIVATE button on all his socialist plans. This is the way the Burn starts.

----------

Okay...so 'Walk Away' is basically a stand-your-ground position as well, right?

-- Let the Bush Tax Cuts expire, all of them.
-- No increase in the Debt Limit.

Because I like this scenario.

Posted by: wheatie at November 30, 2012 04:00 PM (CM59X)

267
"our founding fathers pledged lives fortunes and sacred honor in establishing our country and you seem willing to give it up for a lot less."

Let me put you some facts:
1. Yes, our FF's pledged those things
2. They pledged it over relatively minor taxation issues that pale in comparison to what we face right now. Stamp Tax? Let's talk about forking over HALF (or more if you figure indirect and hidden taxes) of your income to the F/S/L governments, mostly for the purposes of redistribution. This is and has been complete bullshit for decades. The FF's would have started spilling blood a long time ago.
3. Our FF's gave up what was arguably the greatest standard of living on the planet at the time. Anyone really think our SoL is on the upswing?
4. The things I have - my income, savings, retirement, my house - are being steadily devalued. This trajectory will steepen in the near future to the point where I'm no better off than some welfarebroodmare. At some point, you're not giving up a whole lot for a lot less by starting over.

I did my part, played by the rules, lived way below my means, funded my retirement until it hurt, paid off the house by busting my ass...for what? To be called selfish? To have more disposable income availableto redistribute? Because it's my duty as an American to bend over and take it in the name of Social Justice? Yeah, fuck that.

Posted by: Jaws at November 30, 2012 04:02 PM (4I3Uo)

268 Obama could do anything and he will never be impeached or removed from office.

I'm sure Mussolini thought the same thing.

Posted by: Winston Smith at November 30, 2012 04:02 PM (eZgIK)

269 Ace, don't go wobbly. Let it BURN.


If Obama becomes a tyrant, it'll spark the 2nd American Civil War. Maybe there's no avoiding it anymore, and maybe it's best to just get it over with before a tyrannical federal government (via the UN Small Arms Treaty) tries to disarm us.

Posted by: Naqamel at November 30, 2012 04:02 PM (UMwMT)

270 @ 265 - The Westward Ho is no more.

Posted by: Alte Schule at November 30, 2012 04:04 PM (MLJu8)

271 Would U.S. Armed Forces fire on a mass of fellow Americans?

Posted by: MoeRon at November 30, 2012 04:05 PM (PKCB1)

272 Sic semper tyrannis

Posted by: JoJo at November 30, 2012 04:05 PM (MSrqi)

273 Cut off the Obamaphones. THAT will get their attention.

Posted by: Nicki at November 30, 2012 04:05 PM (Xv7f/)

274 I did my part, played by the rules, lived way below my means, funded my retirement until it hurt, paid off the house by busting my ass...for what? To be called selfish? To have more disposable income availableto redistribute? Because it's my duty as an American to bend over and take it in the name of Social Justice? Yeah, fuck that.
Posted by: Jaws at November 30, 2012 04:02 PM (4I3Uo)

well there you go then, I guess you did everything you could. you are excused. off you go to your newly seceded state. hope you and a whole truck load or .223 and .308 are able to stay free and the commies in the rest of the states are cool with secession.

Posted by: yankefifth at November 30, 2012 04:05 PM (Z9EHQ)

275 Okay...so 'Walk Away' is basically a stand-your-ground position as well, right?

Yes. By walking away, the GOP is not approving of anything. No GOP approval = no deal.

The Burn follows.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:05 PM (GQ8sn)

276 Once those go on the market, prices will fall again.

Posted by: MrCaniac at November 30, 2012 03:38 PM (Zd/NW)

I doubt they will, competition for homes is fierce enough, at least in my area, that they probably can afford to keep foreclosures off market for a long time...

Posted by: KG at November 30, 2012 04:06 PM (p7BzH)

277 The Walk Away/Let It Burn option is growing on people. One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.

TFG has already issued tons of EO's to bypass Congress, ignores congress with the approval of the MFM, and the public is fine with it as long as the Free Shit river still flows. TFG and his fellow Dems ignore the very laws they impose on the rest of us with no mercy, again with the approval and assistance of the MFM. Any request that they obey the laws they themselves wrote are RACISM !!!11!!!!

Just what are we holding onto here?

Posted by: kbdabear at November 30, 2012 04:06 PM (wwsoB)

278 271
Would U.S. Armed Forces fire on a mass of fellow Americans?

Posted by: MoeRon

****

No. They won't. Unlike some illiterate Chinese or South American hireling, the American soldier will never fire on fellow citizens, no matter what they are ordered to do. Then it will get real interesting.

Posted by: Nicki at November 30, 2012 04:06 PM (Xv7f/)

279 @264:

Hear, hear!

Well said. If we're already at the point, then it must come sooner rather than later.

If we're going to actually now call Obama a tyrant, then the Republic is already in collapse. He's already proposed that Congress simply forfeit their powers and gran them unto himself. The only thing he hasn't actually done is tried to just go ahead and do it, but that's coming, only a matter of time.

Turn and burn, brace for impact...

Posted by: Catmman at November 30, 2012 04:07 PM (C8XlI)

280 Just what are we holding onto here?

---

History and an ideal which appears to be falling by the wayside.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at November 30, 2012 04:07 PM (e0xKF)

281 Let it burn. Screw the takers, and screw the politicians.

Posted by: Morris the Cat at November 30, 2012 04:07 PM (epxV4)

282 Would U.S. Armed Forces fire on a mass of fellow Americans?



Posted by: MoeRon

****

No. They won't. Unlike some
illiterate Chinese or South American hireling, the American soldier will
never fire on fellow citizens, no matter what they are ordered to do.
Then it will get real interesting.


Posted by: Nicki at November 30, 2012 04:06 PM (Xv7f/)

Ahem!

Posted by: Kent State at November 30, 2012 04:08 PM (EKr9U)

283 Just what are we holding onto here?

---

History and an ideal which appears to be falling by the wayside.
Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at November 30, 2012 04:07 PM (e0xKF)

Name: *

fixing this country is a whole lot easier than wrecking it and rebuilding. why do you even think our new constitution would be as good as the one we have?

Posted by: yankefifth at November 30, 2012 04:08 PM (Z9EHQ)

284 Would U.S. Armed Forces fire on a mass of fellow Americans?

Under what kind of orders? Some Pentagon REMF general giving the order to fire upon a protest will be either be relieved or "fragged" by another officer. I believe there are still a great many number of officers in the armed forces who can tell the difference between a pissed of citizen and a dangerous terrorist.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:08 PM (GQ8sn)

285 Would U.S. Armed Forces fire on a mass of fellow Americans?

A Corporal Bonaparte can always be found.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 30, 2012 04:08 PM (QupBk)

286 271

No, they won't, and besides - the military, by something like 65-35%, is ON OUR SIDE ON THIS.

Posted by: Naqamel at November 30, 2012 04:08 PM (UMwMT)

287 Let it burn. No other way.

Posted by: Cornfed at November 30, 2012 04:09 PM (Hoy9u)

288 @ 278 - I would posit that some officers would obey the orders handed down by what used to be termed the National Command Authority simply because they are used to blindly following orders. The rest? The NCOs? The troops? Probably not so much.

Posted by: Alte Schule at November 30, 2012 04:09 PM (MLJu8)

289 Yankefifth, do you have some more info about the Russia/China scenario you mentioned? It's just the kind of terrible future I want to read some more about. I agree that it is a plausible scenario but I'd like to hear about it from some folks with more knowledge than myself.

Posted by: Not Ready To Unsock at November 30, 2012 04:10 PM (BgIBZ)

290 Not saying there are any really good options left but LiB is dumb for one important reason.

Never let a good crisis go to waste is their motto. Shut down the government and watch 0 just print IOUs and watch life go on with Congress completely out of the spending equation. It would happen. You know it would, the Democrats would declare it is the 'only' option and even FNS would STFU when the word came down. If the other option is obviously chaos and rioting in the streets when the welfare checks suddenly stop you can bet yer ass the powers that be will do whatever it takes to stay on top. And six months later it would be the new normal in exactly the same way that Congress deciding for the first time that a budget was optional only a couple of years ago has already become the new normal.

The problem is we are no longer a People worthy of receiving the blessings of liberty and any proposal that doesn't include a plan for reversing that isn't a plan.

About all I can propose is for the House to get it's ass in shape and form a totally unified front amongst the Rs that 1) the House is where all taxing and spending must originate and 2) they are going to pass a zero baseline budget based upon extending ALL of the Bush taxes and freezing everything at post Fiscal Cliff levels minus an extra 1% for good measure. 3) They are going to leave town and stop all interviews after that until the Senate passes it's own budget and the Conference Committee starts work.

The Senate is so terrified of even proposing a budget they would then agree to almost anything to avoid it. Maybe. At least it is a short term plan. Still doesn't address the real problem above though.

Posted by: John Morris at November 30, 2012 04:10 PM (sCRhB)

291 281 - Exactly. The takers are parasites on society, and the fact that a total collapse hurts them a hell of a lot more than it hurts people who are prepared, and producers... well, this is callous, but LET IT BURN. Fuck the 47% on the government teat. I'm tired of working to provide for my family, and to provide free ObamaPhones to some illegal aliens' kids and food stamps so they can eat better than I do. LET IT BURN.

Posted by: Naqamel at November 30, 2012 04:11 PM (UMwMT)

292 290 wrote: "The problem is we are no longer a People worthy of receiving the blessings of liberty and any proposal that doesn't include a plan for reversing that isn't a plan."

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!

Posted by: MoeRon at November 30, 2012 04:11 PM (PKCB1)

293
One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.


it is already gone

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at November 30, 2012 04:11 PM (R8hU8)

294 Walk away/let it burn.

Posted by: blogRot at November 30, 2012 04:11 PM (A6JXc)

295 Furthermore... once the Federal Government is done collapsing under it's own weight - LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC OF TEXAS

Posted by: Naqamel at November 30, 2012 04:12 PM (UMwMT)

296 271-yes, it would. why wouldn't they-it's the jobof the military to salute smartly and follow orders. Or at least that is what I hear here all the time. Not to be too big of a conspiracy theorist but why is the military less likely to do it than the snipers at Ruby Ridge?

Posted by: ejo at November 30, 2012 04:12 PM (GXvSO)

297 One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a
serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let
it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.


it is already gone

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at November 30, 2012 04:11 PM (R8hU

You can't say I didn't warn you.


Posted by: Ben Franklin at November 30, 2012 04:13 PM (EKr9U)

298 Some of the most homogenous states are Dem ones, remarkably. Minnesota, Maine, and Vermont are whiter than the audience at a Barry Manilow concert.

OTOH, Louisiana and Mississippi may be solidly Republican at the national level but it's roughly a 60-40 split along ethnic lines.
Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at November 30, 2012 03:57 PM (e0xKF)

That's why I pointed out it wasn't a simple matter of the ethnicity. What is often overlooked is the City (often Bosniak and Croat) versus Country (mostly Serb) aspect of the war.

Along with the cultural aspect, the city centers of of Mississippi, Wyoming and Alabama are not in the same position of control as those in Pennsylvania, Colorado and New Jersey.

It's not all about race or ethnicity, but about the working culture (union versus non-union), religious outlook, gun culture, etc.

A lot is dependent upon a dependent vs. and independent culture. Minnesota and Wisconsin have a socialist and liberal Lutheran backdrop with heavy unionism that make them more amenable to socialism, and have city centers that anchor them there.

They are will be as good as socialism gets, but will eventually be in the same toilet as Michigan. They just haven't got there yet.

There are two incompatible nations in the USA, one believes in slavery and one doesn't. The Blue States wish to enslave the of the Red States in their Socialist Utopia, because some has to pay for it.

Posted by: Minuteman at November 30, 2012 04:13 PM (qs9G3)

299 Not to be too big of a conspiracy theorist but why is the military less likely to do it than the snipers at Ruby Ridge?

Posted by: ejo at November 30, 2012 04:12 PM (GXvSO)

Wasn't Ruby Ridge the FBI?

Posted by: KG at November 30, 2012 04:15 PM (p7BzH)

300 Kent State in 1970 - not a lot of kids. I was there. Ruby Ridge, a family. I'm talking about a mass of people, a crowd of 10,000 +

Posted by: MoeRon at November 30, 2012 04:15 PM (PKCB1)

301 I am all for LIB. But I hope people really understand the consequences.

Will we actually get serious reform? Yes.

Increased taxes for everyone? Yes.

Recession? Definitely.

But that all assumes the President will not overstep his Constitutional limits- which I am betting he will.

That latter possibility will have very serious ramifications. Not just at the SCOTUS (since this Congress will not impeach him). But when things get bad enough, you may get riots and worse.

Posted by: marcus at November 30, 2012 04:16 PM (f6THN)

302 I think we should study and think about Ghandi.

Posted by: MoeRon at November 30, 2012 04:16 PM (PKCB1)

303 Shut down the government and watch 0 just print IOUs and watch life go
on with Congress completely out of the spending equation.


That would last only so long before people started asking when real money is going to flow into their bank accounts. You can't run a gov't on IOU's forever. Sooner or later, people want to get paid. With real money, not promises.

Also, if Congress is invalidated then that would be grounds for a revolution. I'm talking total fucking uprising. The president cannot dissolve Congress under any EO or directive, short of killing them all by his own hand.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:16 PM (GQ8sn)

304 No. They won't. Unlike some illiterate Chinese or
South American hireling, the American soldier will never fire on fellow
citizens, no matter what they are ordered to do. Then it will get real
interesting.


Posted by: Nicki at November 30, 2012 04:06 PM

I wish somebody had told the troops at Waco that!

Posted by: The Branch Davidians at November 30, 2012 04:16 PM (wwsoB)

305 I wish somebody had told the troops at Waco that!

---

ATF idiots =/= "troops"

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at November 30, 2012 04:17 PM (e0xKF)

306 #230

"The response, practiced and polished and drilled to perfection has to be, from every Republican officeholder and candidate, these words:

"Sequestration is President Obama's idea. Bob Woodward confirms in his latest book that the sequestration scheme came from President Obama's White House in the first place. And sequestration is the plan that President Obama signed into law. If you don't like the consequences of this law, please direct your complaints to President Obama. It was not a Republican idea. It was President Obama's idea."

Make him own it."

This.

The media does its best to bury quotes it doesn't like, so all the top Republican guys need to get their act together and all start saying this.

I'm still depressed about everything, but this at least has some sort of a chance of helping.

Posted by: mr_jack at November 30, 2012 04:17 PM (TMG3G)

307 304 Posted by: The Branch Davidians at November 30, 2012 04:16 PM (wwsoB)


Hell of a lot more people in the NRA than were at Waco. And that was the FBI, not the military if I remember correctly.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at November 30, 2012 04:18 PM (XkWWK)

308 #300

As in Romania, the military would probably follow orders until they became sickened with the slaughter or realized their necks would be next on the line, then the worm would turn, and it's bye-bye dictator.

Posted by: Ben Franklin at November 30, 2012 04:18 PM (EKr9U)

309 I wish somebody had told the troops at Waco that!

Posted by: The Branch Davidians at November 30, 2012 04:16 PM (wwsoB)

Again, wasn't that the FBI?

I wouldn't exactly lump the FBI in with the military. They are two very different organizations and cultures.

Posted by: KG at November 30, 2012 04:18 PM (p7BzH)

310 That latter possibility will have very serious
ramifications. Not just at the SCOTUS (since this Congress will not
impeach him). But when things get bad enough, you may get riots and
worse.


Posted by: marcus at November 30, 2012 04:16 PM (f6THN)

I prefer me enemies in front of me waving their fascist flag than hiding behind my Old Glory.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 45% more DOOM! at November 30, 2012 04:18 PM (xAtAj)

311 Would U.S. Armed Forces fire on a mass of fellow Americans?

Any enlisted and officers tasked with such enforcement would be vetted for political reliability ahead of time, and the rest confined to barracks or sent off on exercises in the desert or Alaska.

So, yes, the ones sent most certainly would.

Posted by: Winston Smith at November 30, 2012 04:18 PM (eZgIK)

312 Let it burn. It will show Obama for the totalitarian freak he really is.

Posted by: asdf at November 30, 2012 04:18 PM (LLEcx)

313 Waco was ATF, not military or FBI.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:19 PM (GQ8sn)

314 34 Rule by fiat, die by fiat. We elect a GOP President in 16, he can be a tyrant for us. After all, Obama set the precedent.
Posted by: MrCaniac at November 30, 2012 03:10 PM (Zd/NW)


Our side would never do it. We're the ones with principles. It's the other side that uses our freedoms as weapons against us.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at November 30, 2012 04:19 PM (XkWWK)

315 Minnesota... whiter than the audience at a Barry Manilow concert.

Posted by: Minuteman at November 30, 2012 04:13 PM (qs9G3)

---

When I left Minneapolis the poor refugees were murdering a white kid every two-three weeks less than a mile from the University of MN campus. North Minneapolis is one of the scariest places I've ever driven through, it's like their own little slice of Baltimore. Rochester (the next largest city after the Twin Cities) has a significant minority population. I believe over ten percent are refugees.

Of course, the rest of the state is white as all get out. And fat. People in MN eat well

Posted by: Not Ready To Unsock at November 30, 2012 04:19 PM (BgIBZ)

316 No. They won't. Unlike some illiterate Chinese or
South American hireling, the American soldier will never fire on fellow
citizens, no matter what they are ordered to do. Then it will get real
interesting.


Posted by: Nicki at November 30, 2012 04:06 PM

Maybe American soldiers won't, but cops seem to have no moral qualms about it. Police departments are getting more paramilitary every year, and SWAT teams have been sent to bust down doors even with no known armed threats. I believe that the EPA and the Dept of Education have SWAT teams. What for, armed truants?

Posted by: The Branch Davidians at November 30, 2012 04:19 PM (wwsoB)

317 Interesting that the flag officer corps, as represented by Petraeus, has been totally corrupted. A "Seven Days In May" scenario, while desirable my not happen.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at November 30, 2012 04:20 PM (XkWWK)

318
I wish somebody had told the troops at Waco that!



---



ATF idiots =/= "troops"

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at November 30, 2012 04:17 PM (e0xKF)
ATF doesn't own tanks. Those were National Guard troops driving those M60s.

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 04:20 PM (EKr9U)

319 Last line in 298

SOMEONE has to pay for it.

Posted by: Minuteman at November 30, 2012 04:20 PM (qs9G3)

320 I need an EPA swat team to address an issue about a friend of mine who expels some deadly methane on a regular basis

Posted by: MoeRon at November 30, 2012 04:21 PM (PKCB1)

321 303 You can't run a gov't on IOU's forever. Sooner or later, people want to get paid. With real money, not promises.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:16 PM (GQ8sn)

---

We've been doing it for over forty years.

Anyway, that's what The Bomb is for

Posted by: Not Ready To Unsock at November 30, 2012 04:21 PM (BgIBZ)

322 316 What for, armed truants?

Posted by: The Branch Davidians at November 30, 2012 04:19 PM (wwsoB)

You should have seen the "kids" my mother "taught" in the slums of Brooklyn.

But you are right. The bought up a shit-load of ammo recently. I suppose to keep it out of our hands as opposed to arming the the Dept of Ed or OSHA.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at November 30, 2012 04:21 PM (XkWWK)

323 Posted by: The Branch Davidians at November 30, 2012 04:19 PM (wwsoB)

For me, cops are indeed a concern. They are not soldiers, they only pretend to be when they play dress-up, with very bad results.

I think cops are more likely to be the shooters for a regime than our troops.

Posted by: KG at November 30, 2012 04:22 PM (p7BzH)

324 I wouldn't exactly lump the FBI in with the military. They are two very different organizations and cultures.

The FBI reports to a lawless criminal at the moment. I would not put much faith in them as staunch defenders of the Republic anymore.

Posted by: Winston Smith at November 30, 2012 04:22 PM (eZgIK)

325 The other option to a dictatorship is for the producers of the country to just go on strike... shut it down, advertise a week and have 40 million people not show up for 7 days.It would take some high powered press or entertainment people on the right in addition to polititians and having some CEOs call for it also. Can you imagine if half of the airline pilots just took a week off? Food distributors?
----------

THIS. Not the pilots, either, they are just worker bees. The CEOs and Board of Directors need to shut down every business for a week. A General Strike of producers and job creators. Let the libs who run Goldman Sachs and Costco and Hollywood stay open, but everyone else close. Every independent trucker, stay off the road. Oil and gascompanies, stop shipping the oil and gas and close the gas stations.

These leftist assholes think they can just keep turning up the heat on the pot gradually and we won't jump out before we are boiled. We will have to either prove them wrong, and start jumping, or we will prove them right!

Posted by: rockmom at November 30, 2012 04:22 PM (NYnoe)

326 This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic.

Absolutely not. The Republic is long-gone. The democracy may be undone, but it's doomed anyway. Godspeed!

Posted by: A One-Eyed Cat Peepin' in the Seafood Store at November 30, 2012 04:22 PM (eMtQ2)

327 We've been doing it for over forty years.



Anyway, that's what The Bomb is for


Right. Which is why we are where we are right now. People want to get paid and are about to find out the cash register is empty.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:22 PM (GQ8sn)

328 US troops will never fire into a crowd of civvies.

Instant riots everywhere and desertion in the military will be instantaneous.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 45% more DOOM! at November 30, 2012 04:22 PM (xAtAj)

329 Also, the House needs to stop authorizing appropriations without a budget.

Posted by: passably affable at November 30, 2012 04:23 PM (/YzPM)

330 Walk on, walk on, don't look back. Don't ask questions, don't you try to understand.

Posted by: Warden at November 30, 2012 04:23 PM (HzhBE)

331 ATF doesn't own tanks. Those were National Guard troops driving those M60s.

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 04:20 PM (EKr9U)

Tanks? I don't remember tanks at Waco...

Posted by: KG at November 30, 2012 04:23 PM (p7BzH)

332 300 Kent State in 1970 - not a lot of kids. I was there. Ruby Ridge, a family. I'm talking about a mass of people, a crowd of 10,000 +
Posted by: MoeRon at November 30, 2012 04:15 PM (PKCB1)

IIRC, some person or persons in the crowd fired on the Nat'l Guardsmen first, and they returned fire. That was recently uncovered.

Tragic? Yes. But an unprovoked massacre it wasn't.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at November 30, 2012 04:23 PM (XkWWK)

333 More perceptive MMs may have pointed this out before, but Machiavelli proposed something very like this in 'The Prince.' He suggested that the way to get control of a restive city was to put the cruelest, most ruthless official available in charge. Then, after the populace has been sorted out, the prince should publicly execute said official and exclaim how very, very sorry he is that things got so out of hand, and it will never, never happen again. "Let it burn" advocates are saying the same thing (except that we didn't appoint the progs).

Posted by: The inexplicable Dr. Julius Strangepork at November 30, 2012 04:24 PM (YmI3c)

334 Tanks? I don't remember tanks at Waco...

Watch the footage again. A tank makes the first breach and then the fun starts.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:24 PM (GQ8sn)

335 329 wrote "Also, the House needs to stop authorizing appropriations without a budget."

AND ANOTHER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER TO passably affable!

Wish we had some Repubs with some 'nads in the House.

Posted by: MoeRon at November 30, 2012 04:24 PM (PKCB1)

336 I would not put much faith in them as staunch defenders of the Republic anymore.

Posted by: Winston Smith at November 30, 2012 04:22 PM (eZgIK)

Yea, I don't put my faith in any LEO, they have screwed up so much in recent years.

Posted by: KG at November 30, 2012 04:24 PM (p7BzH)

337 Those were National Guard troops driving those M60s.

There were no M60's at Waco. That is a myth. There were tracked vehicles, borrowed from engineer units, but no M60's.

Posted by: Winston Smith at November 30, 2012 04:25 PM (eZgIK)

338 Obama has signed more executive orders than any other president. He already sees himself as a dictator. At this point we're just waiting to make it official.

Posted by: misty (Team Economic Collapse) at November 30, 2012 04:25 PM (v9uA1)

339 I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to see Obama show his true colors.

It would be the quickest way to purge this scourge.


Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 45% more DOOM! at November 30, 2012 04:25 PM (xAtAj)

340 Watch the footage again. A tank makes the first breach and then the fun starts.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:24 PM (GQ8sn)

Sure it was a tank and not an armored vehicle? Because those the fed agencies do have, I believe.

Posted by: KG at November 30, 2012 04:25 PM (p7BzH)

341 325 Posted by: rockmom at November 30, 2012 04:22 PM (NYnoe)


Remember how people used to laugh at the loons who refused to pay their income taxes?

How about several million (even hundred thousand) of us refusing?

Now THAT would be a way for us to make it burn effectively. Elections have consequences. Just not quite the ones that the winners had anticipated.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at November 30, 2012 04:26 PM (XkWWK)

342
Watch the footage again.


Its a CEV, Combat Engineer Vehicle. Trutherism has no place here.

Posted by: Winston Smith at November 30, 2012 04:26 PM (eZgIK)

343 Sure it was a tank and not an armored vehicle? Because those the fed agencies do have, I believe.

I remember a "tank-like" vehicle breaching the wall with a turret, then a lot of smoke, fire, and an explosion.

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:27 PM (GQ8sn)

344 No. They won't. Unlike some illiterate Chinese or
South American hireling, the American soldier will never fire on fellow
citizens, no matter what they are ordered to do. Then it will get real
interesting.


Posted by: Nicki at November 30, 2012 04:06 PM

Wish somebody had told us that too !!!

Posted by: The Bonus Army, 1932 at November 30, 2012 04:27 PM (wwsoB)

345 Ferchrisakes, even Soldier of Fortune debunked the "tanks at Waco" myth.

GIVE. IT. UP.

Posted by: Winston Smith at November 30, 2012 04:28 PM (eZgIK)

346 Sure as G-d made little green apples, SCOAMF will declare that unless we do things his way to avoid the fiscal cliff, then it will be a national emergency and he will have no choice but to issue his plan as an executive order to avert a national catastrophe.

You can bank on that.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at November 30, 2012 04:29 PM (XkWWK)

347 No. They won't. Unlike some illiterate Chinese or
South American hireling, the American soldier will never fire on fellow
citizens, no matter what they are ordered to do. Then it will get real
interesting.


Posted by: Nicki at November 30, 2012 04:06 PM

Four given a good talking to in Ohio!

Posted by: Neil Young at November 30, 2012 04:29 PM (wwsoB)

348
Think it can’t happen here?

In 1765, the year the Stamp Act was enacted, no one imagined
Washington’s inauguration happening just twenty four years later.

In 1978, the year Pope John Paul II was made Pope, no one imagined
the dissolution of the USSR happening just thirteen years later.

The only new thing under the sun is the history you don’t
know. – Harry Truman



Normal
0




false
false
false

EN-US
X-NONE
X-NONE











MicrosoftInternetExplorer4



























































































































































/* Style Definitions */
table.MsoNormalTable
{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";
mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-parent:"";
mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
mso-para-margin:0in;
mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}





Posted by: Nicki at November 30, 2012 04:29 PM (Xv7f/)

349 I remember a "tank-like" vehicle breaching the wall with a turret

Wrong, it was a ram/boom assembly.

Posted by: Winston Smith at November 30, 2012 04:29 PM (eZgIK)

350 Its a CEV, Combat Engineer Vehicle. Trutherism has no place here.

That's on an M60 platform right?

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:29 PM (GQ8sn)

351 Ace: "Just something to keep in mind. Tyrants are always looking for pretexts to rule without any check."

So the options are:

1) Give Obama everything he wants (or essentially everything he wants absent trivial, superficial tweaks) wherein he actually gets what he wants, or

2) Deny him essentially everything he wants (because this particular tyrant will only accept everything) wherein a crisis occurs and he declares himself pharaoh and he actually gets what he wants.

Bottom line: Lose-Lose? I don't think so. I'll take option two and LIB. He can destroy the country and it'll be him in the history books doing it. In the new Republic, the first order of business will be to burn the books of our academic "historians" and forbid the dissemination of their take on what actually happened. Then we can proceed with the prosecution of the MFM DNC propaganda arm for crimes against the people.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at November 30, 2012 04:30 PM (eHIJJ)

352
One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.

Are you trying to sell me on the soft LiB option?

Well, OK I guess we could try it. But if it doesn't collapse the Republic we'll have to do it all over proper this time.

Posted by: entropy at November 30, 2012 04:30 PM (TULs6)

353 Right. Which is why we are where we are right now. People want to get paid and are about to find out the cash register is empty.
Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:22 PM (GQ8sn)

---

Agreed, but the results depend on who it is. CN and JPN are most likely well aware that they'll never be completely repaid and there's really not much they can do about it. The serfs know fuck all about fiat currency and many will not understand even after the EBT card is no longer replenished. The fed and The Fed want to suck all of the wealth out of the middle class, which takes some drama but they want it slow.

Posted by: Not Ready To Unsock at November 30, 2012 04:30 PM (BgIBZ)

354 Sorry. I denounce myself.

Posted by: Nicki at November 30, 2012 04:30 PM (Xv7f/)

355 EC @303 said, "That would last only so long before people started asking when real
money is going to flow into their bank accounts. You can't run a gov't
on IOU's forever. Sooner or later, people want to get paid. With real
money, not promises."

What do you think is in your wallet now? Obama already has the banks by the nads. So long as they take the paper from the FED and the Treasury Dept, the ATM and credit cards keep swiping, etc. yes people will happily accept the new state of things. The few that don't will be dealt with. We on the right side of the web will howl but it will avail us not.

And forget red states breaking away unless you can propose a way for em to have atom bombs on day 1 plus a way to make a very credible threat to deliver em in a post Iron Dome ABM world. MAD is the only force that might (might) stop Obama from invoking Lincoln's established precedent of murdering any who wish to flee.

Posted by: John Morris at November 30, 2012 04:31 PM (sCRhB)

356 Just a thought the debt limit is 16.4
We are well over 16.3 now

Posted by: Debt limit closer than you think at November 30, 2012 04:32 PM (Jt5WE)

357
Trutherism has no place here.

Because you're offended by it.

People who believe in aliens, ghosts, and the Loch Ness monster are fucking stupid, but that won't stop them from being welcomed will it? Stupid people are not evil.

Unless you find them offensive, and then they're evil and must be stopped because, like Ace mentioned earlier, the whole point of politics is making everyone else obey at any cost.

Posted by: entropy at November 30, 2012 04:32 PM (TULs6)

358 What do you think is in your wallet now? Obama already has the banks by the nads.

What's more worthless? A US currency note or an IOU?

Posted by: EC at November 30, 2012 04:33 PM (GQ8sn)

359 NUKE. IT. AND. LET. IT. GLOW.

Posted by: Mjölnir, the banhammer from the gates of Hell at November 30, 2012 04:33 PM (Jls4P)

360
"One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic."

Good. War#.

Posted by: rrpjr at November 30, 2012 04:33 PM (jujXx)

361 51
tree of liberty needs what it needs
Posted by: Wally in Walla Walla

More Brawndo?


Posted by: weft cut-loop at November 30, 2012 03:12 PM (JEpGb)

+ Infinity

Posted by: Dick Whistle at November 30, 2012 04:35 PM (5Zux8)

362 We revolted over tax on a freakin' beverage. And you chumps bend over for a DNC-led SCoaMF?

Posted by: Stuff Jefferson's Zombie Said, Vol. I at November 30, 2012 04:35 PM (eHIJJ)

363 According
to a report by the U.S. Department of the Treasury, the list of military
personnel and equipment used at Waco included: 15 active-duty military
personnel, 13 Texas National Guard personnel, nine Bradley fighting
vehicles, five combat-engineer vehicles, one tank-retrieval vehicle and
two M1A1 Abrams tanks. Additionally, Fort Hood reportedly was used for
much of the training for the bloody attack on the Davidians and their
children.



My bad, they were using front-line M1A1s and Bradleys, not older NG M60s.

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 04:35 PM (EKr9U)

364 Cops treat Occupoopers with kid gloves, while doing the tough guy act on Tea Partiers, while gathering names on who has the Gadsen Flags

Maybe they personally sympathize with the Tea Party types more, but when given the order they'll open fire, blame adrenaline, and sleep like a baby afterwards


Posted by: kbdabear at November 30, 2012 04:36 PM (wwsoB)

365 Just got an email from Thornberry (Texas 13). He is going to be his usual fucktarded self and vote for whatever awful deal Boehner makes.

Posted by: SpongeBob Saget at November 30, 2012 04:36 PM (epxV4)

366 then a lot of smoke, fire, and an explosion.

Lanterns were tipped over, fuel spilled, CS grenades ignited it. It was unfortunate, and poorly planned, not nefarious.

The big fuckup was having the water turned off and no fire/rescue on hand. That and the all wood structure let the fire progress rather quickly.

That part of the FBI/ATF reports reads like its pretty honest.

The part that doesn't read honest is the description of bullet wounds and fatal shots to the Federal agents who died in the previous initial assault. THAT part of the reports screams "coverup"

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 04:37 PM (eZgIK)

367 "This could mean the end of the Republic."

Hate to say it, but that's already happening. This might just be the shock treatment people need to wake up, and if not, I'll go down fighting. I won't live in a country that looks like the land I loved, but is really its evil twin.

Obama has that flexibility he wanted, and see the result. He hasn't even reached the second term and his arrogance has already ballooned.

Walk away, GOP. Let it burn.

Posted by: Lee at November 30, 2012 04:37 PM (RtwOA)

368 And forget red states breaking away unless you can
propose a way for em to have atom bombs on day 1 plus a way to make a
very credible threat to deliver em in a post Iron Dome ABM world. MAD is
the only force that might (might) stop Obama from invoking Lincoln's
established precedent of murdering any who wish to flee.


Posted by: John Morris at November 30, 2012 04:31 PM

A few well placed missiles on some centers of the elite, and they'll have had enough of war

Posted by: kbdabear at November 30, 2012 04:37 PM (wwsoB)

369 Stating that the economy is slowly coming back as reason to not walk away and let it burn is hoping against hope itself. Our economy is designed in such a way that if/when it does go into recession or depression, it will bounce back ALL ON ITS OWN. Thats why throwing money at the wall (ala stimulus) and seeing what sticks does not work. Its why supplying failing companies with bailouts to keep afloat does not work. The economy is self sustaining so long as people are able to afford to buy products. Once you begin meddling with it, trying to force it to come back by throwing money at it, it will wither on the vine. Roosevelt extended the depression by trying to force things to get better rather than letting the market work the way it is meant to. Zeroman is doing the same thing. He is choking it by dumping money into a bottomless pit.
WALK. AWAY.
LET. IT. BURN.

Posted by: Lord Vader at November 30, 2012 04:38 PM (5OBSH)

370 My bad, they were using front-line M1A1s and Bradleys

Then you'll have no problem producing video of M1's and Bradley's near the structure. PResent your proof.

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 04:39 PM (eZgIK)

371 What I always wondered is why the FBI chose a dry day with 35 mph winds to go forward with the attack, then were surprised that the place turned into an inferno inside of 5 minutes

Posted by: kbdabear at November 30, 2012 04:40 PM (wwsoB)

372
"fixing this country is a whole lot easier than wrecking it and rebuilding. why do you even think our new constitution would be as good as the one we have?"

At some point, the house rot gets so bad you can't fix it anymore. You have to tear it down to the foundation and start over. The country you and I want, yankeefilth, is not possible given our current construction of 51%+ rotten, termite-ridden structure.

Do you think our Constitution is currentlybeing used in anygenuine, meaningful, originalist way? Hell, a quick reading followed by an honest appraisal of our reality will tell you it's not. It seems to exist for no other reason than to be tortured by lawyers with the same skillful tonguesas $1500/hr whores into saying that which it clearly does not in ot\rder to lend "legitimacy" to that which is otherwise intolerable.

Perhaps we'll borrow it and put it back in effect.

Posted by: Jaws at November 30, 2012 04:40 PM (4I3Uo)

373 For all you keyboard commando historians that are claiming no military was involved at Waco, get a clue, use a search engine and get informed. Your ignorance will be your downfall.

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 04:40 PM (EKr9U)

374 plus a way to make a
very credible threat to deliver em in a post Iron Dome ABM world


FedEx - the world on time.
What can Brown do for you?

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 04:41 PM (eZgIK)

375 368 And forget red states breaking away unless you can
propose a way for em to have atom bombs on day 1 plus a way to make a
very credible threat to deliver em in a post Iron Dome ABM world. MAD is
the only force that might (might) stop Obama from invoking Lincoln's
established precedent of murdering any who wish to flee.


Posted by: John Morris at November 30, 2012 04:31 PM

A few well placed missiles on some centers of the elite, and they'll have had enough of war

---

You don't even need missiles if your explosives are portable enough or if you have radioactive material that can be easily spread.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at November 30, 2012 04:42 PM (e0xKF)

376 Texas, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota - Red states all with bases w/ nukes. When the former USSR split up, whatever military forces were in a given territory belonged to that territory. That's why the Ukraine became a nuclear power from Day One.

Posted by: Alte Schule at November 30, 2012 04:43 PM (MLJu8)

377 Yes, there were tanks at Waco. Standard infantry formation. Tank in front, troops in the back.

Posted by: navybrat at November 30, 2012 04:43 PM (Pjt1t)

378 But the president's offer is very much in keeping with his history of insisting that every negotiation consist of the other side giving him everything he wants. That approach has given him the reputation as the modern president least able to forge a consensus.

Don't forget: The man now engaged with Congress to work out a grand deal is the same one who could not pull over to his side a single Republican vote for his stimulus legislation, who had to ram through ObamaCare with procedural tricks, and whose inept handling of last year's debt-ceiling talks ultimately led his fellow Democrat, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, to isolate him from the final negotiations. This is not a history to inspire confidence.

Mr. Obama's tendency to campaign rather than lead, to speechify rather than negotiate, has already defined this lame-duck session. The president has wasted weeks during which a framework for a deal has been in place.

Within two days of the election, Mr. Boehner had offered an enormous compromise, committing the GOP to provide new tax revenue, through limits on deductions for the wealthy. Mr. Obama campaigned on making "the rich" pay more—and that is exactly what Mr. Boehner agreed to give him.

All that was left for the president to do was accept this peace offering, pair it with necessary spending cuts, and take credit for averting a crisis. Mr. Obama has instead spent the past weeks campaigning for tax-rate hikes. He wants the revenue, but collected only the way he chooses. And on the basis of that ideological insistence alone, the nation is much closer to a crisis.

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at November 30, 2012 04:43 PM (e8kgV)

379 Choomer owns this bitch... time to let it burn with the heat of 10,000 suns going supernova all at once.

As for his minions... you brought this shit on yourselves... be prepared for what is coming down the pipeline... no more free shit... and civil unrest that will make the summer of '68 look like a county fair...

Posted by: Mjölnir, the banhammer from the gates of Hell at November 30, 2012 04:43 PM (Jls4P)

380 The Walk Away/Let It Burn option is growing on people. One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.

Ace, the reason you're scared is because you think there's still hope. But Ace, the only hope you have is to realize that the republic is already dead ..

Posted by: Lt Ronald Spiers at November 30, 2012 04:45 PM (wwsoB)

381 370 My bad, they were using front-line M1A1s and Bradleys

Then you'll have no problem producing video of M1's and Bradley's near the structure. PResent your proof.
Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 04:39 PM (eZgIK)

---

I think the Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas on justice.gov is pretty fucking compelling.

http://1.usa.gov/TrsflM

Posted by: Not Ready To Unsock at November 30, 2012 04:45 PM (BgIBZ)

382 If this President somehow gets control over the debt ceiling, can a future President unilaterally lower the debt ceiling?


Posted by: Tonic Dog at November 30, 2012 03:29 PM (X/+QT)

----
Heh..... you assume there's going to be future elections....

Posted by: fixerupper at November 30, 2012 04:45 PM (nELVU)

383 claiming no military was involved at Waco

That NG units were there is NOT IN DISPUTE. Nobody contests this. NOBODY.

Claims that tanks "participated" in the assault is in dispute, because it is BOGUS. Simply NOT TRUE. Unsupported by all video documenting the assault.

I'm sorry that you have been lied to and believed it.

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 04:45 PM (eZgIK)

384 And what will be the recourse?

How about a 50,000,000 man march on Washington, DC?

Seriously, if Obama grabbed power like that, I bet we could get over 50% of the 48% of the voters that did not vote for him to converge on the capitol.

Posted by: Marmo at November 30, 2012 04:46 PM (QW+AD)

385 How would it provoke a constitutional crisis? Because Obama would take powers...to do what exactly? The cuts were agreed upon.

Posted by: PJ at November 30, 2012 04:47 PM (ZWaLo)

386 I think the Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas on justice.gov is pretty fucking compelling.

Alas, inventory says JACK SHIT about disposition and usage.

Thanks for playing, Try again.

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 04:47 PM (eZgIK)

387 383

Claims that tanks "participated" in the assault is in dispute, because it is BOGUS. Simply NOT TRUE.

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 04:45 PM (eZgIK)

---

I see what you're saying. Yeah that's true, only CEVs participated in the assault and I believe they were operated by the FBI.

Posted by: Not Ready To Unsock at November 30, 2012 04:48 PM (BgIBZ)

388 Let. It. Burn.

Posted by: Observer at November 30, 2012 04:48 PM (/sohm)

389 386

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 04:47 PM (eZgIK)

---

See 387. Derp.

Posted by: Not Ready To Unsock at November 30, 2012 04:49 PM (BgIBZ)

390 Claims that tanks "participated" in the assault is
in dispute, because it is BOGUS. Simply NOT TRUE. Unsupported by all
video documenting the assault.

I'm sorry that you have been lied to and believed it.


Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 04:45 PM (eZgIK)



http://www.justice.gov/publications/waco/wacotwelve.html


Read it and weep. Oh, and do your own research in the future, smartass.

Excerpt:

On Monday Morning, the Attorney General and several
senior Justice Department representatives gathered with senior
FBI officials in the FBI SIOC, where they monitored events
throughout the morning via CNN footage and a live audio feed
directly from the FBI forward command post in Waco.

The weather conditions in Waco that morning did not work
in the FBI's favor. Strong, gusty winds prevailed, which probably
helped to disperse the tear gas and fan the flames once the fire
started.

The tear gas action began at 5:55 a.m., when HRT
Commander Rogers ordered the two CEVs deployed to the compound,
with CEV-1 proceeding to the front-left corner of the building,
and CEV-2 proceeding to the right side of the building. At 5:56
a.m., lead negotiator Byron Sage telephoned the compound and
asked to speak with Schneider. It took approximately three
minutes for Schneider to come to the phone.

At 5:57 a.m., Rogers moved his command tank to a
position approximately 240 yards directly in front of the
compound, providing him with an unobstructed view of the entire
compound.


Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 04:51 PM (EKr9U)

391 Watch what happens when several hundred thousand people withdraw their 401-K's before the confiscation.

Watch what happens if a sufficient number of people withdraw all their money from the banks.

Then watch what happens when those same people, hopefully at least in the hundreds of thousands, refuse to pay income tax.

Fuck you. Pay yourself!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at November 30, 2012 04:51 PM (XkWWK)

392 Some type of heavy armored assault vehicle was used to introduce the gas (and some say fire) at Waco. Of this there is no dispute. It was widely broadcast.

Posted by: navybrat at November 30, 2012 04:53 PM (Pjt1t)

393 390

http://1.usa.gov/QvRVjS also indicates that the Bradleys were close enough to receive fire from the compound.

At this point I'm not really sure what the dispute is about however, as it seems the goal lines continue to be shifted with each exchange of posts.

Armor sitting in the yard is extremely disturbing, even if they did not directly participate in the assault. That is indisputable fact.

Posted by: Not Ready To Unsock at November 30, 2012 04:53 PM (BgIBZ)

394 Oh, the tanks that were there weren't intimidating the folks inside the compound. I get it now. They just brought stuff in like Abrams tanks and Bradley IFVs because they could carry a lot of water and medical supplies very safely to the folks inside. I get it.

/endsarc

Deploying armor into a civilian situation is power projection. That's one of the main reasons we *have* that Navy thingy, tbqh. Just sending a CVBG *near* our enemies makes them occasionally shit themselves...and was the same reason a 60-ton MBT was sent to Waco.

Sheesh.

Posted by: Rob McNeece at November 30, 2012 04:53 PM (hNXHo)

395 392

"Between 6:07 and 6:31 the HRT escalated the pace of tear gas delivery pursuant to the "compromise" order from Rogers. The CEVs inserted gas at their designated positions, while the four Bradleys deployed Ferret rounds through the windows into the building."

Posted by: Not Ready To Unsock at November 30, 2012 04:55 PM (BgIBZ)

396 Can we all move on from Waco? I mean we have Soros as president right now - TODAY. While what happened at Waco might have some significance, it is in the weeds what vehicles the military/police/FBI whoever had.

Let us focus the mind on our impending hanging and what we can do about it.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at November 30, 2012 04:56 PM (XkWWK)

397 And before someone makes the claim that the tanks did not participate in the "actual" assault: that's like saying you were only standing by "observing" while your friends raped someone, because you didn't actually penetrate the victim even though you were there to "assist".

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 04:57 PM (EKr9U)

398 The republic is long since undone. Time to drop the pretense.

Posted by: epobirs at November 30, 2012 04:57 PM (kcfmt)

399 We are now in a world where Big Brother can zap you from a drone with a hell fire missile. I remember when we all saw the war pr0n with such attacks, I said to myself, yeah, real funny now, not so much once it gets used on us.
And it will.

Posted by: navybrat at November 30, 2012 04:58 PM (Pjt1t)

400 I just stopped in to say I'm in full support of our president providing us free birth control. I was really worried about getting my pet ferret pregnant.

Posted by: Olaf at November 30, 2012 04:59 PM (t1NLo)

401 On the upside,

When it burns perhaps:

Our IMF funding burns.
Aid to the paeolstanians burns
UN contributions burn

Who am I trying to kid.

Come sweet SMOD, come now.

WA LiB

Posted by: Insecto the Fucked at November 30, 2012 05:00 PM (Z5BDI)

402 And I agree, nothing is more depressing than talk of Waco. Nothing happened to the perps, except that they all got promoted and pay raises.

Posted by: navybrat at November 30, 2012 05:00 PM (Pjt1t)

403 Republicans can do pretty well in mid-term elections because fewer people vote and those who do are older. The last Congress, the most unpopular in our history, didn't get much done. Republicans need to find a way to enact legislation without caving on the things that matter. If they embrace the "just walk away" plan, the only walking they do will be walking the plank in 2014. Don't walk away. Negotiate.

Posted by: Jordan at November 30, 2012 05:00 PM (1dwWo)

404 While what happened at Waco might have some
significance, it is in the weeds what vehicles the military/police/FBI
whoever had.



Let us focus the mind on our impending hanging and what we can do about it.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at November 30, 2012 04:56 PM (XkWWK)

Just a history lesson for those that are fooling themselves.

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 05:00 PM (EKr9U)

405 Aside from the fact that the press won't be compliant and there would be no election in 2016 (at least not a valid one), that's like saying the Gracchii were OK because Sulla came after.
Posted by: imp

I don't know about the press. As the economy keeps declining and unions keep demanding I think that there will be a tipping point that even the complicent media will not be able to ignore. They will lose jobs, income as well as an ever decreasing profit margin. I believe that self interest will take over at that point.

Posted by: Cheri at November 30, 2012 05:01 PM (G+Wff)

406 And I agree, nothing is more depressing than talk of
Waco. Nothing happened to the perps, except that they all got promoted
and pay raises.


Posted by: navybrat at November 30, 2012 05:00 PM (Pjt1t)



Wesley Clark.
Paging Wesley Clark

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 05:02 PM (EKr9U)

407 Oh, now I get it. All this talk of Let It Burn = Waco = Flame War.

All of a theme.

I'm all burned out now, so to speak.

~;-/

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 30, 2012 05:05 PM (EKr9U)

408 Be afraid, America, be very afraid,

If I come back from Hawaii and find the GOP has put this country into recession I will be seriously pissed off. You think I can't put average people or Speakers of the House on my Kill List? I've already sent the IRS after Republican donors, and I've established the power to kill anyone I want to without a legal process, so it'll be easy to marry these several powers and start getting serious with Republicans.

When I'm done you'll all wish you were Emanual Goldstein, because all he got was daily doses of "two minutes of hate". Two minutes will sound generous when I line up the Repubs and give them what for.

Posted by: President For Life Obama at November 30, 2012 05:06 PM (+GpbP)

409 1. Now tell me what you're going to do when death comes creeping in your room.
Now tell me what you're going to do when death comes creeping in your room.
Now tell me what you're going to do when death comes creeping in your room.
Oh my lord, oh my lord, what shall I do, what shall I do.

2. You're going to run, you're going to run, you're going to seek your hiding place.
You're going to run, you're going to run, you're going to seek your hiding place
You're going to run, you're going to run, you're going to seek your hiding place
Oh my lord, oh my lord, what shall I do, what shall I do.

3. Soon one morning, death came creeping in my room
Soon one morning, death came creeping in my room
Soon one morning, death came creeping in my room
Oh my lord, oh my lord, what shall I do, what shall I do.

4. Death's done come and took my Mother away
Death's done come and took my Mother away
Death's done come and took my Mother away
Oh my lord, oh my lord, what shall I do, what shall I do.

5. Death's done come and took my Father away
Death's done come and took my Father away
Death's done come and took my Father away
Oh my lord, oh my lord, what shall I do, what shall I do.

6. Ride on, Death, 'cause you can't do me no harm
Ride on, Death, 'cause you can't do me no harm
Ride on, Death, 'cause you can't do me no harm
Oh my lord, oh my lord, what shall I do, what shall I do.

Posted by: Insecto the Fucked at November 30, 2012 05:07 PM (Z5BDI)

410 Rogers moved his command tank to a

position approximately 240 yards directly in front of the

compound


Wow, using a "tank" 240 yards away as a rolling fucking walkie talkie. That's BIG TIME "participation" there. I'm fucking impressed...NOT.

All you've done is further confirm what I've known for 20 years. No real tanks got near that building or participated in that assault.

Dood. There was SO MUCH that was wrong about Waco and fucked up, that was REAL, really REAL, its not productive or instructive put forth sophist bullshit.

You want something to really dig into? Find the autopsy reports for the dead Federal agents that were redacted and covered up. Find out where the damned front door vanished to. Find out why ATF was even interested in these guys when all evidence and purchase receipts showed they had nothing illegal. Hellfire? LEGAL. Inert grenades? LEGAL.

Those questions burn a lot hotter than horseshit about tanks participating in the assault.

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 05:09 PM (eZgIK)

411 So "Santa Claus" is lecturing us today about his naughty and nice list?
Just when you think this bad actor can't get worse he does. How absolutely insulting. Chavez without the charm. /S

Posted by: Cheri at November 30, 2012 05:10 PM (G+Wff)

412 Posted by: Rob McNeece at November 30, 2012 04:53 PM (hNXHo)


If you don't see any difference between the Military using military equipment, on our Enemies.... vs... Law Enforcment using Military equipment against our own citizens?

Wow... just... wow...

Posted by: Spartacus at November 30, 2012 05:12 PM (lZBBB)

413 Law Enforcement already has military grade weapons in a lot of municipalities. Los Angeles has at least one armored personnel carrier. SWAT teams have suppressed automatic weapons, grenades. Whatever you want. I visited a police dept in a pretty average small town (but a prosperous one) and got to check out the armory. Oh yeah, full mil grade stuff. They got it if they need it.

Posted by: navybrat at November 30, 2012 05:19 PM (Pjt1t)

414 You gotta define "military equipment" before that discussion even makes sense. That's a pretty broad range of stuff from a K-Bar to a nuclear weapons and everything in between.


Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 05:19 PM (eZgIK)

415 More perceptive MMs may have pointed this out
before, but Machiavelli proposed something very like this in 'The
Prince.' He suggested that the way to get control of a restive city was
to put the cruelest, most ruthless official available in charge. Then,
after the populace has been sorted out, the prince should publicly
execute said official and exclaim how very, very sorry he is that things
got so out of hand, and it will never, never happen again. "Let it
burn" advocates are saying the same thing (except that we didn't appoint
the progs).


Posted by: The inexplicable Dr. Julius Strangepork at November 30, 2012 04:24 PM (YmI3c)






Word

Posted by: Beast Rabban, House Harkonnen at November 30, 2012 05:20 PM (TIIx5)

416 Palm Beach county Sheriff's drug units have full auto MP5's.

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 30, 2012 05:21 PM (eZgIK)

417 OK, the weapons I saw were M4 and M5s with grenade launchers.

Posted by: navybrat at November 30, 2012 05:24 PM (Pjt1t)

418 that's like saying the Gracchii were OK because Sulla came after.


WTF?


The Gracchii were OK. Sulla was the fucking problem.


Sometimes I don't know how I ever fooled myself into thinking I shared an ideology with some of you.

Posted by: entropy at November 30, 2012 05:36 PM (YUttk)

419 And what will be the recourse? Court, I suppose. Impeachment, sure

>>>> And if that fails?

Posted by: trump at November 30, 2012 05:37 PM (M7Awp)

420 If that fails, we have to sit and take it, until we retake the presidency. It's not a great option dude

Posted by: trump at November 30, 2012 05:38 PM (M7Awp)

421 Maybe I shouldn't hit post until I get my entire thought down FAIL

Posted by: trump at November 30, 2012 05:38 PM (M7Awp)

422 "More perceptive MMs may have pointed this out
before, but Machiavelli proposed something very like this in 'The Prince.' He suggested that the way to get control of a restive city was to put the cruelest, most ruthless official available in charge. Then, after the populace has been sorted out, the prince should publicly execute said official and exclaim how very, very sorry he is that things got so out of hand, and it will never, never happen again. "Let it burn" advocates are saying the same thing (except that we didn't appoint the progs).

Posted by: The inexplicable Dr. Julius Strangepork at November 30, 2012 04:24 PM (YmI3c) "

And the somewhat ironic point to that was that Machiavelli loved him some republics, much more than the current crop of leftists who are the political descendants of the Medicis who threw him into prison for being the Glenn Beck of his day. When he wrote 'The Prince' as possibly as a troll piece, it was an exquisitely cutting bit of satire that, sadly, seems to be yet another manifestation of Poe's Law today. (Our own Mary Cloggenstein is another example)

Posted by: The Ghost of Flannery O'Connor at November 30, 2012 05:38 PM (WE5bx)

423 Waco is a good lesson for us. We'll need napalm filled motes.

Posted by: Boy George at November 30, 2012 05:42 PM (2mZZv)

424 Here is the headline from today's wall street journal - "OBAMA"S CLIFF OFFER SPURNED". Got to love the word "Spurned". Those unreasonable republicans! BTW, the journal is very liberal except for the editorial page. Rupert needs to replace some of the "journalists".

Posted by: peter at November 30, 2012 05:49 PM (RNlWU)

425 #178 Posted by: Multitude at November 30, 2012 03:39 PM (bpONz)
--

Multitude, could you write up an essay, intended for the masses (so as brief and easy to understand as possible) that summarizes our current situation and the historical context? Perhaps we could get as much exposure as possible on right-leaning blogs and try to get it to go viral. Most people do not understand what is going on (to state the obvious).

Posted by: Mayday at November 30, 2012 05:53 PM (F3s39)

426 Most likely it would lead to serious spending reductions through sequestration, tax increases across the board with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, and the implosion of the GOP. The cost of all of this probably wouldn't be the republic. It would be another deep recession that would be far harder to shake off.

Posted by: Jeff D at November 30, 2012 05:54 PM (S2+vK)

427 "This is the solution. Just don't raise the debt ceiling. It doesn't need to be talked about. It doesn't need to be fought over. Just don't do it."

No vote required.

Adjourn the House and go home to your constituents. No debate is required. No explaining why you're not going to debate is required.

Just don't bring a debt limit increase bill before the House. Republicans are not required to fund Democrats. Period.

And if Republicans decide they want to fund ObamaPhones, Big Bird, the teachers unions, etc., then what fucking use do I have for Republicans?

Posted by: someguy at November 30, 2012 05:58 PM (sEXZ/)

428 If this Congress accomplishes nothing more than the last, if GOP lawmakers simply walk away from their responsibilities Republican voters will elect a new set of legislators. It's as simple as that. Mitch McConnell, prepare to be primaried in 2014.

Posted by: Jordan at November 30, 2012 06:10 PM (1dwWo)

429 Burn right down to the waterline.

Posted by: -Shawn- at November 30, 2012 06:12 PM (FZRBT)

430 My modest proposal:
Throw the MSM news anchors off a tall bridge
Aim for the concrete piers..

Posted by: TexasJew at November 30, 2012 06:16 PM (lD8ju)

431 maybe OT, but:

there is a reason they talk about mil, ex-mil, etc.being terortis.

To 286:
No, they won't, and besides - the military, by something like 65-35%, is ON OUR SIDE ON THIS.
Posted by: Naqamel at November 30, 2012 04:08 PM (UMwMT)

What isOUR side that they're on?? R v. O?? LIB?? R v. D?? What??

Think it through. Not sayng you're wrong, but there has to be a morning after.

Posted by: ddan at November 30, 2012 06:19 PM (q1RJB)

432 How will the Republic survive without Obamaphones and Sandra Flukes vajay?

Posted by: TexasJew at November 30, 2012 06:21 PM (lD8ju)

433 25
"One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic."

A Republic? Where? Anyone else see a Republic around here?

I see a Social Democracy with a big 'ol nasty Fascist tumor on it, but I don't see a Republic anywhere.
Posted by: Jaws at November 30, 2012 03:09 PM (4I3Uo)


**************

Sadly, this ^^^

Nicely put, BTW

Posted by: Boomer Redneque knows Mohammad was a goat-fucking kiddie-raper at November 30, 2012 06:27 PM (eQnzo)

434 As the economy keeps declining and unions keep demanding I think that
there will be a tipping point that even the complicent media will not be
able to ignore. They will lose jobs, income as well as an ever
decreasing profit margin. I believe that self interest will take over at
that point.
--

My daydream is that a large group of influential advertisers (ie, captialists) decide to stop advertising in the MSM.

We can't trust the gov't, our elected representatives or the SCOTUS, and we aren't too sure about law enforcement or the military. I'd like to see some civilian entities get creative.

Posted by: Mayday at November 30, 2012 06:39 PM (F3s39)

435 Republicans should push for a vote in both houses on TFG's proposal, either get on the record Reid's ducking a vote or vote yea or na, demonstrate (again) how far left/fascist his plan is.

Posted by: waelse1 at November 30, 2012 06:42 PM (OjnXq)

436 Just to throw this out there, there's an alternative: a Constitutional Convention. People are rightfully aware that this is a dangerous option, but how is that really any different than the status quo? Conservatives do very well at the state level. It might be worth a shot. It's at least worth discussing.

Posted by: JohnJ at November 30, 2012 06:54 PM (Tt6ky)

437 Proceed with the deliberate destruction of our economy, and you will see a violent military overthrow of the government of the United States--there are still men of action who will act to defend the Republic.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at November 30, 2012 07:07 PM (71mXH)

438 437 Big Fat Meanie:

Unfortunately, that is exactly what I am hoping for now.

It's a damn shame it's come to that, but I believe that a military coup is preferable to civil war.

Posted by: rickl at November 30, 2012 07:10 PM (sdi6R)

439 And Multitude at 178 is the thread winner.

If you haven't read that one yet, go do so.

Posted by: rickl at November 30, 2012 07:12 PM (sdi6R)

440 "...and you will see a violent military overthrow of the government of the
United States--there are still men of action who will act to defend the
Republic.


Bullshit. They're all Petraeus. They'll do whatever they're told.

Posted by: WTF Do I Know at November 30, 2012 07:26 PM (HtUdo)

441 Sic semper tyrannis

Posted by: ignatz at November 30, 2012 07:26 PM (UU+lp)

442 Walk Not One Republican vote for this bilge.
Its going to collapse anyway due to Rat irresponsibility and corruption so walk and make them own it.
They may thing socialism will result they forget who has the firepower.

Posted by: ConcealedKerry or SubMitt at November 30, 2012 07:51 PM (N6+l9)

443
Now, you have a clue, Ace. You've laid out a couple of very possible, if not probable, scenarios.
You nailed it, Ace.
The only difference is, had things been reversed, we'd be looking at the same basic scenario with a Republican in The White House...even with a Republican controlled House and Senate.
The music has stopped and Obama and the Dems have grabbed the last chair...
Long term outcome, say, ten totwenty years down the road: Possibly, America will become...a loose confederation of republican states, instead of a United States under our current, failed, federal democracy. Think: Articles of Confederation or a similaranalogue. iow, Big Government goes completely away, except for what we now think of as almost powerless figureheads.
Short term: Prepare to live in your worst political and economic nightmare...
Now, for the 'I told ya so!'
Ten years ago, you guys pilloried me for saying that things would get this bad. That's when you were being nice about it. Hell, even five years ago... No, I'm not a prophet or some sort of spiritualist prognosticator. I did one helluva lot of research on this and closely related topics...which included more reading than most of you morons do in a lifetime. iow, you had to be blind or ignorant not to see this coming from a long, longways away. (Hell, in 2001/02, nobody believed me when I told them a housing crash was coming...)
Now, back to your football games, Valu-Rite and hobo whore hunting trips

Posted by: Warren Bonesteel at November 30, 2012 08:00 PM (WwR1j)

444 Democrats do not seek to govern. Their ideology demands a radical and fundamental transformation. Otherwise entitlements are going to get reformed, privatized, and become less entitley. They see the writing on the wall and know that incremental reforms will not support their agenda. That is why they seek to do nothing about entitlement reform while nonetheless proclaiming their love. It is only by taking us to the breaking point and seizing every ounce of power here and now (eg filibuster reform) can they make the future they want (a more socialist future). Entitlements will become part of general spending (along with everything else). I will be shocked at this point if Reid doesn't change the Senate rules. And that is when all should know for a fact that the Democrats are not pursuing an honorable and good course for America. It is a power grab because Democrats know their agenda cannot be accomplished by mere elections but is easily impeded by them.

Posted by: Crispian at November 30, 2012 08:17 PM (uxW8g)

445 So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic.


Ace... you took this out of your post... why?

Posted by: Leigh at November 30, 2012 08:40 PM (AxuhS)

446 oops take that back..

Posted by: Leigh at November 30, 2012 08:40 PM (AxuhS)

447 wasnt in the spot I thought when I looked at it again... gotta stop commenting sober

Posted by: Leigh at November 30, 2012 08:41 PM (AxuhS)

448 Sic semper tyrannis. Get it?

Posted by: Sam in VA at November 30, 2012 09:20 PM (YCvRs)

449 purpav I'm not following your point. What about the dead feds and missing front door? Please eleborate.

Posted by: ig at November 30, 2012 09:27 PM (5Cwv4)

450 Now, for the 'I told ya so!'
Ten years ago, you guys pilloried me for saying that things would get this bad.



Yeah you might have had me beat by a few years.


But I wasn't as dismissive of you as most.


When I first saw you around here I didn't quite get you, you didn't seem like a commie troll but seemed like half a jackass. Turned out I was.


If I remember correct, it was because I thought you were one of them 'moderate' types just trying to split babies in order to seem reasonable, as down on republicans as you were democrats.


Republicans. Heh. I still can't fucking believe how I fell for that. When I was an angsty 14 year old, I was an anarchist. Drew "A"'s on all my schoolbook covers.


You know what they say: When in doubt, stick with your first guess.

Posted by: entropy at November 30, 2012 09:31 PM (YUttk)

451 57 De-friend and Di-vorce. Know anyone who voted for Obama, scream in their faces, then break up with them.

I.e. go the full Sam Kinison?

Posted by: edj at November 30, 2012 09:35 PM (+QKfp)

452
Anarachy? ahh.... no..... I agree with you in regards to throwing the Repubs away. Some states will return to [r]epublicansism as W. Bonesteel points out. Wonder how national defense will work out? I hopeit's not as bad as Bonesteel says - a"cold" civil war would be best.

Posted by: ig at November 30, 2012 09:41 PM (5Cwv4)

453 How can anyone honestly believe that the direction of the country, even before Obama, was not toward more tyranny and more governmental control? Obama is just worse than the others, but they all keep pushing toward less freedom. No one will stop the spending until it is stopped by other forces.

Posted by: Baldy at November 30, 2012 10:22 PM (opS9C)

454 Let me get this straight Ace. You're saying that the only way to stop Obama from seizing total power is to give him everything he wants. Isn't that a distinction without a difference?

Posted by: DFCtomm at November 30, 2012 10:25 PM (hkh8c)

455 Anarachy? ahh.... no.....


Meh. Anarchy isn't even possible, it's a utopianistic ideal. More realistic than expecting Republicans to fix anything though.

Posted by: entropy at November 30, 2012 10:58 PM (YUttk)

456 Watch for this move, too: EXECUTIVE ORDER 6102?

"Executive Order 6102
is an Executive
Order signed on April 5, 1933, by U.S. President Franklin D.
Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding [sic; read
OWNING] of Gold Coin,
Gold Bullion, and Gold Certificates within the continental United States". The order
criminalized the possession of monetary gold by any individual,
partnership, association or corporation."

Punishment? $10,000 fine (in 1933 dollars) or up to 10 YEARS IN JAIL.

Roosevelt just CONFISCATED all privately held gold. Just like that. And got away with it. The excuse? that people who owned gold were "hoarding" it. Get it?

Owning = "Hoarding." You have it; we want it: it's ours.

Also watch for Brrrarrraagh Hussein Obunghole to declare his intention to run for three and four terms.

Also watch for the Usual Suspects to cover for all his dictatorial moves, just like they did with FDR (packing the Supreme Court with extra justices, anyone?).

There's a ton of nefarious things that a sociopath who's been selected be the Leader of the [formerly] Free World can do: we're going to see some very dark days.

Posted by: beverly at December 01, 2012 12:05 AM (s05WS)

457
"The Walk Away/Let It Burn option is growing on people. One cautionary note, though: This will provoke a serious constitutional crisis and may undo the Republic. So a soft Let it Burn could turn into a genuine collapse of the Republic."
Gutless attitude. So if you cave in to the Dems the Republic is lost, but if you don't cave in it's also lost? Sounds to me like it's already lost!

Posted by: Andrew at December 01, 2012 12:12 AM (zxFKo)

458 116 there is no crisis. the law is perfectly clear. only if obama seeks to do things illegally is there a crisis.

When has Obama last acted legally?

Posted by: Ryan at December 01, 2012 02:11 AM (NC6RD)

459 No, Ace, Obama is NOT "a tyrant", by any definition; so, you're a liar.

But yes, Ace, go ahead and promote der Kanadian Kraut's "Just Walk Away From" it approach, because that is a GGGGRRREAAAAATTT deal for liberals and progressives, a way BETTER deal than they could ever get through negotiation.

Please, Republicans, conservatives, Kraut, Ace:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqAh1dQu_pg

(God, you morons are such easy marks; no wonder Obama's beating you senseless with his mighty phallus.)

Posted by: Rex the Wonder God at December 01, 2012 03:33 AM (21TJo)

460 Lol. So, the Let It Burn-crowd is evolving into a Civil War Now! crowd? Fascinating. You guys are such drama-queens.

Y`all should see the movie Dark Horse. Perfect analogy for the republican movement.

Posted by: Fnord at December 01, 2012 04:29 AM (hoJnS)

461 1300 days without a budget.

I bet we don't have one for the next 4 years.

Posted by: Sexypig at December 01, 2012 06:04 AM (6m8gs)

462 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raCsOXD3tSU

Yep, says it all....

Posted by: fred zeppelin at December 01, 2012 07:05 AM (QRFrB)

463 This great nation, like many before it, can certainly fall, so those few commenting that there is no danger here are whistling past the graveyard. At the same time, those who are calling for the tree of liberty to be refreshed sound like little children. If that were to happen it wouldn't be a video game, folks. Those cheering it on like they would surely come out on top aren't any more serious than those saying it won't or can't happen.

Posted by: TRO at December 01, 2012 09:42 AM (ad/F8)

464 Yeah, I'm in the walk away camp now. It's the best of a lot of bad alternatives for Pubs.

Posted by: Esau's Message at December 01, 2012 03:42 PM (6c62F)

465 Provoke the constitutional crisis. He's asking for it. He's begging for it. Bring it on now.

Posted by: Esau's Message at December 01, 2012 03:44 PM (6c62F)

466 Damm....I wish I had not have had to sell my guns to keep my house...maybe I would have been better off to buy a cheap RV and camping gear, and let the house go. Too bad I have a disabled son to take care of....shit, I can live on beans and rice, but he can't. And in the end of all this shit, that is who suffers....those among us who can truly not provide for themselves....So the economy collapses....what happens to the nursing homes, disabled and young.....The Soylent Green option? Nah.....old people are to dry and bony.....

Posted by: jasonj at December 01, 2012 03:54 PM (Cq0ow)

467 And so the Unraveling inevitably leads to the Fourth Turning of our generation. The good news is that by 2025 or 2026, the next great war will be mostly over, and a new spring/summer will begin.

Hope ya'll got all your shit in one sock, because the next 10-15yrs are gonna be one for the record books.

Posted by: shank at December 01, 2012 06:14 PM (tYyor)






Processing 0.09, elapsed 0.1179 seconds.
15 queries taking 0.0489 seconds, 476 records returned.
Page size 263 kb.
Powered by Minx 0.7 alpha.

MuNuvians
MeeNuvians
Polls! Polls! Polls!
Frequently Asked Questions
The (Almost) Complete Paul Anka Integrity Kick
Top Top Tens
Greatest Hitjobs

The Ace of Spades HQ Sex-for-Money Skankathon
A D&D Guide to the Democratic Candidates
Margaret Cho: Just Not Funny
More Margaret Cho Abuse
Margaret Cho: Still Not Funny
Iraqi Prisoner Claims He Was Raped... By Woman
Wonkette Announces "Morning Zoo" Format
John Kerry's "Plan" Causes Surrender of Moqtada al-Sadr's Militia
World Muslim Leaders Apologize for Nick Berg's Beheading
Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree
Milestone: Oliver Willis Posts 400th "Fake News Article" Referencing Britney Spears
Liberal Economists Rue a "New Decade of Greed"
Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility
Intelligence Officials Eye Blogs for Tips
They Done Found Us Out, Cletus: Intrepid Internet Detective Figures Out Our Master Plan
Shock: Josh Marshall Almost Mentions Sarin Discovery in Iraq
Leather-Clad Biker Freaks Terrorize Australian Town
When Clinton Was President, Torture Was Cool
What Wonkette Means When She Explains What Tina Brown Means
Wonkette's Stand-Up Act
Wankette HQ Gay-Rumors Du Jour
Here's What's Bugging Me: Goose and Slider
My Own Micah Wright Style Confession of Dishonesty
Outraged "Conservatives" React to the FMA
An On-Line Impression of Dennis Miller Having Sex with a Kodiak Bear
The Story the Rightwing Media Refuses to Report!
Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)
News/Chat