The Fiscal Cliff: Mountain Or Molehill?

On the so-called "fiscal cliff", it seems like the last time we were being stampeded to do something now or there will be DOOM!!11! was the 2009 stimulus, and before that it was TARP. There's no way to prove the counterfactual, but it sure seems like we'd have been better off today without either of those ... the former in its entirety and the latter at the very least in the open-ended form it took.

Maybe I'm just in the "let it burn" mindset, but if it takes sequestration to get a spending cut, bring it on. And as far as letting the "Bush tax cuts" expire goes, maybe it takes that to move beyond "blame Bush". Plus, everyone knows that you can't just raise tax rates on the rich and generate enough tax revenue to close the gap to spending (skip to about 2:00 below if you're short on time).

As a matter of fact, we simply can't tax enough for D.C.'s spending appetite, so arguing about the details of who pays what is pointless. We've never collected more than 20% of GDP in tax revenues for any sustained period of time, and nothing indicates that we can do it now. Obamasized government's opening bet is about 25% of GDP. Good luck with that.

But, alas, this probably isn't going to happen. Our erstwhile guardians of the public fisc would rather explain why they did something ... even if it was the wrong thing ... than why they did nothing. So there will be a compromise, and it will kick the can down the road making the ultimate resolution of the problem even more painful.

There's no easy way out of the hole we've dug ourselves. The sooner we admit that, the better.

Posted by: Andy at 08:25 AM



Comments

1 First - Let it Burn

Posted by: TexBob at November 28, 2012 08:28 AM (y7vIu)

2 Shorter Andy: We're spending too much fucking money!

Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 28, 2012 08:34 AM (da5Wo)

3 Yep, let it burn. The do gooders will figure it out when they lose their jobs and the price of everything skyrockets. Pain seems to be the only thing anyone understands.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at November 28, 2012 08:35 AM (3Y7RV)

4 Let it Burn.

Posted by: Palm Beach Pooter Hound at November 28, 2012 08:35 AM (ufLRj)

5 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 28, 2012 08:35 AM (5DR1j)

6 We don't have a revenue problem; we have a spending problem.

Posted by: Stuff Vic Said, Vol 1 at November 28, 2012 08:36 AM (5DR1j)

7 Moar burn!


Posted by: Sean Bannion at November 28, 2012 08:36 AM (sbV1u)

8 Andy: You're wrong. Tons of people don't understand that taking all the rich people's money won't solve the problem. And they voted. So if the voting public can't figure it out. . .

Posted by: Morseus at November 28, 2012 08:37 AM (YWZwH)

9 Olympus Mons.

Posted by: Where have all the good times gone at November 28, 2012 08:37 AM (vlC9n)

10 Burn it down. All of it.

Posted by: EC at November 28, 2012 08:37 AM (GQ8sn)

11 >> Shorter Andy: We're spending too much fucking money!

Yup.

Posted by: Andy at November 28, 2012 08:37 AM (OZPoa)

12 Austerity will be a tough sell to an electorate that just voted for more "FREE SH*T!!".

So the government won't even bother to try to make the sale- and blame each other for not doing so.

This will not end well...

Posted by: Nighthawk at November 28, 2012 08:37 AM (RSqz2)

13 Content this early in the morning? Man, gotta get moar coffee

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 28, 2012 08:37 AM (3ZtZW)

14

PANIC!!

We played this farce for TARP.

Then we played it for the stimulus.

And then we played it again for health care reform.

Here we are again.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 08:38 AM (70Yu+)

15 Amen Andy. Let it fucking burn, hopefully taking every Dem and Rep with it.

Posted by: Ms Choksondik at November 28, 2012 08:39 AM (YOZSv)

16 I saw some figure a while back that 40% of the jobs are in local, state, or federal government.

That is the problem.

Like the joke about the businessman on the ground floor of a two story building. There was a whore house on the second floor. When asked why he couldn't make more money he said, "Because there's too much fucking overhead."

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at November 28, 2012 08:40 AM (feFL6)

17 Here's a question:
No, we haven't collected more than 20% in ever, but what was the average collection rate for teh USSR? I'm asking out of pure disinterest, of course.

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 28, 2012 08:40 AM (3ZtZW)

18 Tax cuts, regulation cuts, and spending cuts.

The first two grow the Dreaded Private Sector and therefore the tax receipts. The latter shrinks the Leviathan, obviously.

Budgeting is a nightmare. It's dog-ass boring and the federal budget for one year is so complicated that no one person could write it or edit it in a lifetime.

I had a crazy thought though: we could crowd source a comets federal audit including budget cuts. If we could get 10,000 people each to spend a weekend going over a slice of the federal budget and line out the wasteful garbage to the tune of, say, a very modest 10%, that could be the basis for a platform or pledge that the national party could run on.

There have to be 10,000 numerate conservatives out there with 10 hours to devote to such a project, right?

Posted by: Beaux Vine at November 28, 2012 08:40 AM (I2LwF)

19 I'm just tired of the whole doom scenario. I'm at the point where what happens happens, I'll be prepared to protect me and mine. I'm certainly no longer going to be fooled into thinking that elected Republicans are going to be serious about actually fixing the problem or that Americans even give a shit in general.

Posted by: DangerGirl - feeling empty at November 28, 2012 08:41 AM (+kzsa)

20 Ugh. Battle cattle sock off.

Posted by: Truman North at November 28, 2012 08:41 AM (I2LwF)

21

Answer me this: Do people who are trying to solve an economic emergency take off on Thursdays for the weekend?

Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 08:42 AM (70Yu+)

22 >>>Olympus Mons.

erm. Wave of Mutilation?

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 28, 2012 08:42 AM (3ZtZW)

23 Seriously. All this doom and gloom. They government can't go bankrupt. The government can spend as much as it wants. And will.

This is nothing a little (or a lot) inflation can't solve.

No wonder why Chuck Schumacker is getting anstsy over the tiny little start up bitcoin -- open source money. Throwing words around like money laundering.

If government couldn't control the money supply, oh boy then they'd have a problem. They'd actually have to collect what they spend.



Posted by: Guys guys guys at November 28, 2012 08:42 AM (qxcKC)

24 Heard a tease for a story on fox friends just before jumping in the shower...something about taxing Roth IRA's? Did I hear that right? The mouth of Guvment is Voracious.

Posted by: Paladin at November 28, 2012 08:43 AM (LTquJ)

25 Answer me this: Do people who are trying to solve an economic emergency take off on Thursdays for the weekend?





Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 08:42 AM (70Yu+)

More like Wednesday night. Budgeting be like hard work!

Posted by: Hrothgar - L.I.B or SMOD (for the Children) at November 28, 2012 08:43 AM (Cnqmv)

26 That's a good idea, Truman. If only there were a budget ...

Speaking of which, John E. has this idea that the reason Harry Reid would never move on a budget was so that the stimulus spending would be baked into the baseline for as long as possible. I agree.

Posted by: Andy at November 28, 2012 08:44 AM (OZPoa)

27
The mouth of Guvment is Voracious.



“Government is like a baby: an alimentary canal with a big
appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.”


―
Ronald Reagan

Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 28, 2012 08:45 AM (da5Wo)

28 I want one of those cool wingsuits so I can enjoy the ride before I become a grease spot at the bottom of the canyon.

Posted by: Fritz at November 28, 2012 08:45 AM (/ZZCn)

29 19-Dangergirl- can I Haz newslttr?

Posted by: catman at November 28, 2012 08:45 AM (NYdB8)

30
If Shakespeare was alive today he would write a comedy about the Republicans and the Democrats to expose the sheer absurdity of theses two parties of ninnies.

Evil vs Stupid.

A confederacy of dumpkopfs.





Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 08:46 AM (70Yu+)

31 Heard a tease for a story on fox friends just before jumping in the shower...something about taxing Roth IRA's?

Seeing as how Roth IRA's are AFTER TAX, how could they tax it a second time? Oh yeah....this is government we're talking about.

This will lead to something bad. Real bad.

Posted by: EC at November 28, 2012 08:46 AM (GQ8sn)

32 I never thought I'd agree with rap lyrics. But here I go:

Fuck the government.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at November 28, 2012 08:47 AM (4df7R)

33 The politicians don't want to solve the problem so much as benefit from it. They see our fiscal meltdown as a game to be played- how to pin the blame on the other side, how to position themselves to take advantage, how to use it as a campaign issue. The politicians will always put their respective party and personal politics ahead of what is best for the country. This is why I despise all politicians with the burning white hot intensity of a thousand suns.

Posted by: Jones in CO at November 28, 2012 08:47 AM (8sCoq)

34 ...and we are less free...

The declining economic freedom of the United States

The United States, long considered the standard bearer for economic freedom among
large industrial nations, has experienced a remarkable plunge in economic freedom
during the past decade. From 1980 to 2000, the United States was generally rated the
third freest economy in the world, ranking behind only Hong Kong and Singapore.
After increasing steadily during the period from 1980 to 2000, the chain-linked EFW
rating of the United States fell from 8.65 in 2000 to 8.21 in 2005 and 7.70 in 2010
(Exhibit 1.5). The chain-linked ranking of the United States has fallen precipitously
from second in 2000 to eighth in 2005 and 19th in 2010 (unadjusted ranking of 18th).

By 2009, the United States had fallen behind Switzerland, Canada, Australia, Chile,
and Mauritius, countries that chose not to follow the path of massive growth in
government financed by borrowing that is now the most prominent characteristic
of US fiscal policy. By 2010, the United States had also fallen behind Finland and
Denmark, two European welfare states. Moreover, it now trails Bahrain, the United
Arab Emirates, Estonia, Taiwan, and Qatar, countries that are not usually perceived of as bastions of economic freedom. The United States has now reached a point where
even small additional decreases in the rating will cause large ranking changes because
there are so many more countries clustered in this range of the index.
US ratings have declined in four of the five Areas of the EFW index. The rating
in Legal System and Protection of Property Rights (Area 2) dropped by more than
2 points between 2000 and 2010. While it is difficult to pinpoint the precise reason
for this decline, the increased use of eminent domain to transfer property to powerful political interests, the ramifications of the wars on terrorism and drugs, and the
violation of the property rights of bondholders in the bailout of automobile companies have all weakened the United States’ tradition of the rule of law and, we believe,
contributed to the sharp decline of the Area 2 rating.
The rating for Freedom to Trade
Internationally (Area 4) fell by over one point, and the ratings for Size of Government
(Area 1) and Regulation (Area 5) by more than a half point. The only Area where the
United States’ rating was basically unchanged was Access to Sound Money (Area 3).
Government consumption, transfers and subsidies, and government investment
all rose during the decade, while their private-sector counterparts were lower. These
changes were the major reason underlying the decline in the rating for Area 1...


the full report is here:

http://tinyurl.com/bp2m6j8

the excerpt above, pg 17

Posted by: beach at November 28, 2012 08:48 AM (LpQbZ)

35 We got here because Obama and the Dems in year 1 of his reign of terror added $1.1T of spending on social programs to the budget for "stimulus". After that they have kept it in even though it was supposed to be temporary.


How do they do that? Because the Senate refuses to bring a budget to the floor and the balless House Republicans keep passing continuing resolutions to keep the government going under the old Democrat budget.


They are afraid the MFM will blame them if the government shuts down. But mostly they are just afraid.

We didn't get in this hole from taxes and we will not get out of it from taxes. The Democrats will simply increase spending if we raise taxes. That is what commies do.

Stuff Vic said Vol II

Posted by: Vic at November 28, 2012 08:48 AM (YdQQY)

36
33
The politicians don't want to solve the problem so much as benefit from
it. They see our fiscal meltdown as a game to be played- how to pin the
blame on the other side, how to position themselves to take advantage,
how to use it as a campaign issue. The politicians will always put their
respective party and personal politics ahead of what is best for the
country. This is why I despise all politicians with the burning white
hot intensity of a thousand suns.


Posted by: Jones in CO at November 28, 2012 08:47 AM (8sCoq)


I believe this is the exact argument for TERM LIMITS.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 28, 2012 08:48 AM (da5Wo)

37 My friends, in order to avoid the fiscal cliff caused by Bush's reckless spending and incessant tax cuts, I am proposing a temporary tax on those 401ks and IRAs held by the millionaires and billionaires that don't pay their fair share and fly corporate jets. This temporary tax will end as soon as we have achieved a balanced budget and reduced the deficit to zero.


This will not result in any taxpayer making less than $50,000 paying an extra dime in 401k or IRA taxes.


Use your Obamaphone to call your Congressperson to tall, him to vote for this measure, and remind him that the SEIU knows where they live!

Posted by: Barky Ochooma (Redistributor of YOUR Wealth) at November 28, 2012 08:49 AM (Cnqmv)

38 Heard a tease for a story on fox friends just before jumping in the shower...something about taxing Roth IRA's?

This is the real pisser. Did what I could do to prepare for retirement since I was 28. Did the 401k's, the IRA's, my wifes 403B. Because you could pretty much figure that SS wouldn't be there. So I did without so I could retire. The gubmint now figures out people like me are at fault for saving too much for a rainy day.

GIVE ME MORE!!!!

Posted by: Bruce at November 28, 2012 08:50 AM (qB0/v)

39

The Democrats are using this gain more power.

The Republicans are wrestling with this to keep what little power they have. And when all the dhst settles they will have lost power and moved yet again further to leftward.

In other words: Same Old Shit.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 08:50 AM (70Yu+)

40 Help them burn it all down. I'd love to see their reaction when the military spending is cut to zero and we still have a huge deficit.

Posted by: SpongeBob Saget at November 28, 2012 08:51 AM (epxV4)

41 When life throws you shitballs, you gotta get yourself a shitbat.

Posted by: Jim Lahey at November 28, 2012 08:51 AM (u6Ixe)

42 Two great points there, Andy, about the "even if it was the wrong thing" and the "no easy way out". It is too late to get that message across to the masses though, to late to prep them to get ready to suck it up and get ready for abrupt left and right turns along the way. This stuff is going to come down like a sixteen pound hammer some cold morning real soon.

Posted by: and irresolute at November 28, 2012 08:51 AM (DBH1h)

43 >I believe this is the exact argument for TERM LIMITS.


Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 28, 2012 08:48 AM (da5Wo)


oh man I've been down for term limits forever2 terms Senate4 terms House10 years all federal judges all the way up to SCOTUS

Posted by: Jones in CO at November 28, 2012 08:51 AM (8sCoq)

44 There's no easy way out of the hole we've dug ourselves. The sooner we admit that, the better.

At this point I don't think there is any way we can dig ourselves out of this hole, period. You could tax us to death (which they'll try) and drastically reduce spending (which they won't), and we still couldn't come close to catching up. Math has finally overtaken the rhetoric.

Posted by: Blacksheep at November 28, 2012 08:51 AM (bS6uW)

45 41 When life throws you shitballs, you gotta get yourself a shitbat.
Posted by: Jim Lahey at November 28, 2012 08:51 AM (u6Ixe)

I'm so stealing that.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at November 28, 2012 08:52 AM (3Y7RV)

46 Whatever happens Republicans will get the blame because the left doesn't give a shit what their guys do cause "Yay Obama!", and we will blame our guys for agreeing to this shit in the first place.

Bitch Mconnell and Boner sold the sequestration deal to us as a win remember? Fuck em.

Posted by: Mr pink at November 28, 2012 08:52 AM (gILAa)

47 The politicians don't want to solve the problem so much as benefit from it. They see our fiscal meltdown as a game to be played- how to pin the blame on the other side, how to position themselves to take advantage, how to use it as a campaign issue. The politicians will always put their respective party and personal politics ahead of what is best for the country. This is why I despise all politicians with the burning white hot intensity of a thousand suns.

This!

My friends, in order to avoid the fiscal cliff caused by Bush's reckless spending and incessant tax cuts, I am proposing a temporary tax on those 401ks and IRAs held by the millionaires and billionaires that don't pay their fair share and fly corporate jets. This temporary tax will end as soon as we have achieved a balanced budget and reduced the deficit to zero. This will not result in any taxpayer making less than $50,000 paying an extra dime in 401k or IRA taxes. Use your Obamaphone to call your Congressperson to tall, him to vote for this measure, and remind him that the SEIU knows where they live!

AND this!

I believe this is the exact argument for TERM LIMITS.

No. It's the exact argument for HANGING EVERY LAST ONE OF THE BASTARDS.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at November 28, 2012 08:52 AM (zF6Iw)

48 Thanks, Andy.

In reality, there is money being disbursed. It's not an official "budget" or course, but there are a constellation of "continuing resolutions" which authorize that disbursement to the several agencies whose job it is to actually waste that money.

We could treat them the same way we would treat an actual budget. The final document could look like a budget. The political power of such a document would be the same.

Posted by: Truman North at November 28, 2012 08:53 AM (I2LwF)

49 Math has finally overtaken the rhetoric.

Posted by: Blacksheep at November 28, 2012 08:51 AM (bS6uW)

What is this math of which you speak? Teleprompter rhetoric, a media Stalin would have loved, good socialist policies (and good re-education camp commandants) can solve any problem!

Posted by: Barky Ochooma (Redistributor of YOUR Wealth) at November 28, 2012 08:55 AM (Cnqmv)

50 oh man I've been down for term limits forever2 terms Senate4 terms House10 years all federal judges all the way up to SCOTUS


Posted by: Jones in CO at November 28, 2012 08:51 AM (8sCoq)


Sounds like a plan to me.


No. It's the exact argument for HANGING EVERY LAST ONE OF THE BASTARDS.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at November 28, 2012 08:52 AM (zF6Iw)


Well, there might be a couple worth not hanging....but yeah, generally speaking HANG EM HIGH

Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 28, 2012 08:57 AM (da5Wo)

51 Lay down Republicans, let them have it all... All they want! Do it! All they want.....

*sitting in the corner cleaning new firearm*
*listening to my new favorite song - Disco Inferno*

Posted by: catman at November 28, 2012 08:57 AM (YKUmW)

52 I think the plan is sort of an international staring contest at this point. Everybody is collapsing, so everybody will default. The only question is what order that will occur in. The last to fall has the most "value" left.

And yes, I know that's simplistic. Look at who's in charge.

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 28, 2012 08:57 AM (3ZtZW)

53
I can't tell you exactly how this will turn out. But I can tell you, with certainty, the general result.

1. The resolution they agree to will be of a political nature rather than one of pragmatism.

2. We The People will come out of this as the losers while politicians, lawyers, lobbyists, and union bosses come out the winners.

So we can go back to sleep. The outcome is already determined.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 08:57 AM (70Yu+)

54

Been on holiday and visiting family, so not sure if this viral video has hit AOSHQ yet.

And, yeah, I would have had a heart attack:\

The Ghost in the Elevator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoJveRDptDs&feature=youtu.be

Posted by: beach at November 28, 2012 08:58 AM (LpQbZ)

55 Term limits and compensation in the form of per diem only, capped at $1000 per year.

Also, once a legislator,Executive appointee, or member of the judiciary leaves federal service, he or she should be banned for at least twenty years from working in any position that requires interaction with government. This means no leaving office and then joining some dipshit nonprofit as a chief officer of funding and government outreach. No.

Also, Senators and Representatives should be required to spend 75% of their terms in their home districts.

These are all things I dearly, dearly want, and they are STILL more than politicians and their appointees deserve.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at November 28, 2012 09:00 AM (4df7R)

56 It's nearly time for a revolution. There are only two questions- can the government stave one off until after it collapses anyway (in which case, there will be nothing to revolt against)? Will it be a "soft" revolution at the ballot box, or a hard revolution with guns and bullets?

What would a "soft" revolution look like? It would look like conservative Icons like Jeb Henserling losing in primaries to "new blood." Not because he's any part of the problem, but because he's been part of the losing team for too long. It would look like mushy moderates like Boehner and McConnell losing in primaries to people who are really conservative.

The media would call it "anti-incumbent sentiment" because even long-time Republicans, many of them very Conservative, would be ousted in primaries. But the media would be wrong. And when the dust settled, Obama would find himself virtually alone in Washington, DC.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 28, 2012 09:00 AM (5DR1j)

57 beach



i would have beat the shit out of the ghost....i wonder why people are cowards in these situations.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at November 28, 2012 09:00 AM (GVxQo)

58 As a matter of fact, we simply can't tax enough for D.C.'s spending appetite, so arguing about the details of who pays what is pointless. We've never collected more than 20% of GDP in tax revenues for any sustained period of time, and nothing indicates that we can do it now. Obamasized government's opening bet is about 25% of GDP. Good luck with that.


---------


*squirt*

Posted by: Anthony Weiner, Bitches - We Won at November 28, 2012 09:01 AM (8hBZi)

59 I still have not gotten a clear answer on this, are these actual cuts, as in spending less money than last year, or are they government "cuts" which means spending only 4% more instead of 5% more than last year?


Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Coming not nearly soon enough. at November 28, 2012 09:01 AM (VtjlW)

60 Government having to write checks as the money comes in to cover them. OH NO!!! The sky is falling!

If you ask me, an immediate balancing of the budget is a good thing. Plus it brings up images of The Jerk, where the main character is stuck at his desk writing checks.

Posted by: Whatev at November 28, 2012 09:01 AM (2t6Gz)

61 The left has been pushing for taxing IRAs etc for few years at least, but it hasn't rec'd much airplay.

Posted by: Baldy at November 28, 2012 09:01 AM (opS9C)

62 A modest proposal, better and more practical than Swift's (and he was probably kidding, anyway, say scholars): "Firewall" shows we can't eat the rich/seedcorn, and we obviously can't eat the poor because of all the cholesterol. But can we at least eat the poor's dogs?
It may seem like just a little, but maybe it could pay for a few more 'phones.

Posted by: Thorvald at November 28, 2012 09:02 AM (1V6Pv)

63
59
I still have not gotten a clear answer on this, are these actual cuts,
as in spending less money than last year, or are they government "cuts"
which means spending only 4% more instead of 5% more than last year?







Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Coming not nearly soon enough. at November 28, 2012 09:01 AM (VtjlW)

Well, see, if you look at the budget here and.....what? oh.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 28, 2012 09:03 AM (da5Wo)

64 I still have not gotten a clear answer on this, are these actual cuts, as in spending less money than last year, or are they government "cuts" which means spending only 4% more instead of 5% more than last year?

The odds of either party demanding GENUINE cuts -- as in, spending less money than the year before -- are exactly zero.You can be assured that they're talking about cuts in the INCREASE in funding.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at November 28, 2012 09:03 AM (4df7R)

65 Not to worry. We still have some room. For every 1.25 people working at a real job there is 1 person either on the gov dole or working for the government.


So we need to increase it to 1 for 1.

http://is.gd/tGMHd9


Posted by: Vic at November 28, 2012 09:04 AM (YdQQY)

66 What would a "soft" revolution look like?

No, it would look like the great mortgage walkaway of 2008-2010. People would simply stop paying taxes period. There will be mass arrests by IRS collection agents, but that would lead to more citizens not paying.

Posted by: EC at November 28, 2012 09:04 AM (GQ8sn)

67 The left has been pushing for taxing IRAs etc for few years at least, but it hasn't rec'd much airplay.


-----------------------


*squirt* *squirt* *squirt*

Posted by: Anthony Weiner, Bitches - We Won at November 28, 2012 09:04 AM (8hBZi)

68 Maybe I'm just in the "let it burn" mindset,


Welcome to the dark side. It's actually quite comfortable once you get used to it.

Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at November 28, 2012 09:04 AM (GFM2b)

69 Taxing the "rich" covers about 1/12 of the annual debt Mr. Obama is accumulating.

Is that too hard for Boehner to state?

How about this one John; "We have a spending problem, not a tax problem". Or "It's not that we don't tax people enough, it's that we spend too much".

Is it very difficult for Mr. Boehner to ask Mr. Obama specifically what cuts will he immediately make to cover the other 1/11th of the annual debt he's accumulating? That is if Republicans fold on taxes...

I guess so.

Oh and if Republicans fold on taxes (you can cloak it as "revenue" if you want but people know it's taxes) they are finished.

Posted by: Marcus at November 28, 2012 09:05 AM (GGCsk)

70 Let It Burn -- defined as TFG submits his fiscal plans and the GOP votes 'present'.

Since the cliff is what a number of Dems are already shouting for, and will happen on Jan. 1 as long as nothing new is passed, let er rip.

Increased income taxes on everyone. Major jumps in capital gains taxes. Estate taxes so onerous that small businesses will be forced to liquidate rather than be handed down. Taxing the shit out of dividends. Let it all kick in. Oh, and don't do the annual 'doc fix' either; let their Medicare reimbursements drop 30%.

Then sit back and enjoy the show. It's a guaranteed recession, but so what -- not our fault. Docs will drop Medicare patients like mad -- gee, that's a shame, ain't it? Not our fault.

Posted by: GnuBreed at November 28, 2012 09:05 AM (ccXZP)

71 So there's a headline at Drudge about an "atmospheric river" setting up over CA that could pose a severe flood risk for the state.

Am I the only one cheering it on?

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at November 28, 2012 09:06 AM (4df7R)

72
We can't hold the line on no taxes on the wealthy, only. This is what I see over and over, the Republican brand distilled down to opposing taxes on the rich. I say propose several new brackets up there for the very wealthy. Nail huge pots of inherited wealth. Make the Democrats oppose something. They get to play Santa to our Scrooge as a general rule.
Grover Norquist has made the Republicans into a one-trick pony with a side of Islamic supremacism.

Posted by: Beagle at November 28, 2012 09:06 AM (sOtz/)

73 There's no easy way out of the hole we've dug ourselves. The sooner we admit that, the better.

We? In the famous words of Tonto, Faithful Indian Companion, when faced with an attack, "What you mean we, paleface?"

Let me be clear: this is Not What I Voted For. I voted for someone to go to DC and act as I would act. That means that I wanted someone to conduct the fiscal affairs of my (former) country as I would my own finances. Specifically, I don't spend more than I take in, and I expect the people I vote for to do the same thing while in office. It is what I pay them to do. Or at least, it was when I was working and paying taxes.

I also expect the people I vote for to embrace capitalism and the law that contains those who would exploit the freedom inherent in it. I expect the people I vote for to make sure I have the greatest amount of opportunity. This means that there should be as little interference with the free market as possible. I don't want a bunch of fucking busybodies in DC trying to justify their exhorbitant salaries by restricting how I make money through their craven need for control over the economy.

This is what I voted for. I have not gotten what I voted for.

Let It Burn.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at November 28, 2012 09:06 AM (lOmbq)

74 >>>Will it be a "soft" revolution at the ballot box, or a hard revolution with guns and bullets?

It will be coordinated through the use of government-provided cellphones and begin in lower/working class areas of the country, then spread to university campuses through Twitter and other social media outlets.

Not the revolution you were talking about?

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 28, 2012 09:06 AM (3ZtZW)

75 Couldn't find what I was thinking about, but it was some Congressman or something, few years back. Then there's this scheme:

2010: The U.S. Treasury and Labor Departments will ask for public comment as
soon as next week on ways to promote the conversion of 401(k) savings
and Individual Retirement Accounts into annuities or other steady
payment streams, according to Assistant Labor Secretary Phyllis C. Borzi
and Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary Mark Iwry, who are spearheading
the effort. http://tinyurl.com/ycws5m2

Posted by: Baldy at November 28, 2012 09:07 AM (opS9C)

76 Increased income taxes on everyone. Major jumps in capital gains taxes. Estate taxes so onerous that small businesses will be forced to liquidate rather than be handed down. Taxing the shit out of dividends. Let it all kick in. Oh, and don't do the annual 'doc fix' either; let their Medicare reimbursements drop 30%.


----------


*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*

Posted by: Anthony Weiner, Bitches - We Won at November 28, 2012 09:07 AM (8hBZi)

77 Heard a tease for a story on fox friends just before jumping in the shower...something about taxing Roth IRA's?


I am firmly in the Feds are going to try to confiscate all retirement accounts of whatever stripe camp. I also believe this will lead to a hot civil war. Note: I am *not* advocating that. I simply believe that is what will happen. I desperately hope I am wrong about all of this.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Coming not nearly soon enough. at November 28, 2012 09:07 AM (VtjlW)

78 A lot of what We The People require would be realized if air conditioning was banned in D.C.' gummint buildings, and if malaria returned to the tidal Potomac.
That would keep them home in their districts for half the year, anyway.

Posted by: Thorvald at November 28, 2012 09:07 AM (1V6Pv)

79 I cannot believe that the tax the rich thing sells. All you have to do is some simple math. Tax the rich more and you get about $80 billion a year. The annual deficit is 1.2 trillion. AND NOW WHAT?

But our friends and neighbors won't fucking listen. They're too busy posting pictures of their pumpkin spice lattes on Facebook. College educated people earning in the top 10% don't get it or CARE. You think some dumbass single mom who wants government to take care of her bastard offspring does?

Tax the rich! Tax the rich! Republicans hate wymnnns and wants to steal their tamponseesss!

In the last few weeks I've shored up my food stores, bought emergency medical supplies, more solar lighting, and cooking device that can use multiple types of fuel.

Layoffs are coming to my workplace. Most of my fellow employees don't know. They remain blissfully unaware of the shit storm to come. Me, I'm well-positioned and have quite a bit of job security. And while I'm nice to everyone on the outside, inside I'm beginning to take a colder, more me-first attitude. Why? Because I didn't fucking create this problem. They did.

The world is about to get tougher. I'm doing my best to be ready for it.

Posted by: Warden at November 28, 2012 09:07 AM (0DlnM)

80 i would have beat the shit out of the ghost....i wonder why people are cowards in these situations.....
Posted by: phoenixgirl at November 28, 2012 09:00 AM (GVxQo)


I was wondering this myself. Perhaps attacks were edited out...

It was a reality tv show in Brazil.

Posted by: beach at November 28, 2012 09:08 AM (LpQbZ)

81 I think they're called estimated actual cuts, sorta like a decrease in the rate of annual spending increases.

Posted by: Fritz at November 28, 2012 09:08 AM (/ZZCn)

82 70- I agree..What does the Democrat fantasy world look like.. Let's find out!

Posted by: catman at November 28, 2012 09:08 AM (NYdB8)

83 As a matter of fact, we simply can't tax enough for D.C.'s spending
appetite, so arguing about the details of who pays what is pointless.






Yeah but, I'd still like to tax Buffett, Gates and the rest of the "we don't pay enough taxes" hypocrites into the poor house

Posted by: TheQuietMan at November 28, 2012 09:08 AM (1Jaio)

84 I cannot believe that the tax the rich thing sells. All you have to do is some simple math. Tax the rich more and you get about $80 billion a year. The annual deficit is 1.2 trillion. AND NOW WHAT?

This is because people are stupid. Seriously, just stupid. Not merely ignorant, but STUPID. And this is why they get no sympathy from me.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at November 28, 2012 09:08 AM (4df7R)

85 BTW "Fiscal Cliff" is a misnomer. Why are we adopting Democrats language?

It's actually the only proposal on the table that will produce real cuts.

Is it what we want? No.

But the President should own it.

He's betting Boehner will do anything to avoid it.

Hey John- tell me what's so bad about it? The devastating affects?


Why would Republicans own that- you know, because we're 1/3 of the government.

Posted by: Marcus at November 28, 2012 09:09 AM (GGCsk)

86

And I can tell now what CNBC will say today.

If the markets are up they'll attribute to "Fiscal Cliff Deal Hopes"

If the markets are down: "Fiscal Cliff Fears"

Same old shit.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 09:09 AM (70Yu+)

87 All you asset are belong to us.

Posted by: Thorvald at November 28, 2012 09:09 AM (1V6Pv)

88 71 So there's a headline at Drudge about an "atmospheric river" setting up over CA that could pose a severe flood risk for the state.

Am I the only one cheering it on?


I'm praying for the San Andreas to get jiggy.

Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at November 28, 2012 09:09 AM (GFM2b)

89 Y'all don't get it. Obama is our Lord and Savior. Follow him and be not afraid.

Posted by: Jamie Foxx at November 28, 2012 09:09 AM (wIgpo)

90 This is because people are stupid. Seriously, just stupid.

---------



*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*
*squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt* *squirt*

Posted by: Anthony Weiner, Bitches - We Won at November 28, 2012 09:10 AM (8hBZi)

91 We are pretty much seeing the collapse of western democracy. Western democracy has spent itself into oblivion because it has deluted the meaning of citizen to "anyone within the border who is above 18". These newfound "citizens" attach little to no value to their votes, duties, or to being a citizen at all, so they see nothing wrong with voting away trillions of dollars, their freedom, or rampant government corruption.

We are 16 trillion in debt, the current administration operates without a budget adding over a trillion dollars every year to our debt, and when we look around at our fellow "citizens" they are talking about fucking Big Bird, Binders, and government paid for contraceptives. We are fucked.

Posted by: Mr pink at November 28, 2012 09:10 AM (gILAa)

92 71 So there's a headline at Drudge about an "atmospheric river" setting up over CA that could pose a severe flood risk for the state.


Didn't the lord bring a flood a while back to smite the heathens?

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at November 28, 2012 09:10 AM (3Y7RV)

93 And from the sidebar -- POP goes the student loan bubble, just in time for Christmas !

http://tinyurl.com/bte39qy

Total amount of outstanding student loan debt goes up by $42 billion and the student loan repayment default rate goes up 11% in one quarter. Lovely.

Obviously O will want to lock down the votes of this generation of reprobates by forgiving their debt (or at minimum making it dischargeable in bankruptcy) as quickly as possible.

Is it moral? Is it honest? Is it the right thing to do? Who cares ?! It's your buddy Barack, and he cares about the problems of people like you so yay!

I can't imagine where so many people got the idea they could just blow off making payments against loans they took out ... I mean, it's almost as if personal responsibility and individual accountability don't mean anything anymore, but that's just crazy talk. The defaulters don't want a hand out, just a hand up ....

Posted by: Blacksheep at November 28, 2012 09:11 AM (bS6uW)

94 @82 I've lived through that, no thanks.
Worse, this lot underwent a nearly lethal mutation/BodySnatcher Invasion around 1968. Give them free rein and you'll have killing fields.

Posted by: Thorvald at November 28, 2012 09:12 AM (1V6Pv)

95

Ben Bernanke was the first to say "fiscal cliff" while at a Congressional hearing last February 2012.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 09:12 AM (70Yu+)

96 There's this too: (2010):
One of the nation's largest labor unions, the Service Employees International Union (SEIU), is promoting a plan
that will centralize all retirement plans for American workers,
including private 401(k) plans, under one new "retirement system" for
the United States.
In effect, government pensions for everyone, not unlike the European system and regardless of personal choice.
http://tinyurl.com/bq4zwt5

Posted by: Baldy at November 28, 2012 09:12 AM (opS9C)

97 I can't imagine where so many people got the idea they could just blow off making payments against loans they took out ... I mean, it's almost as if personal responsibility and individual accountability don't mean anything anymore, but that's just crazy talk. The defaulters don't want a hand out, just a hand up ....
Posted by: Blacksheep at November 28, 2012 09:11 AM (bS6uW)


I got a feelin when the money gets a little lower you will see a more agressive attempt at collections.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at November 28, 2012 09:13 AM (3Y7RV)

98 >>>Republicans hate wymnnns and wants to steal their tamponseesss!

Smeagol! Gollum!!!! Hates the Bagginses!

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 28, 2012 09:13 AM (3ZtZW)

99 73 There's no easy way out of the hole we've dug ourselves. The sooner we admit that, the better. We? In the famous words of Tonto, Faithful Indian Companion, when faced with an attack, "What you mean we, paleface?" Let me be clear: this is Not What I Voted For. I voted for someone to go to DC and act as I would act. That means that I wanted someone to conduct the fiscal affairs of my (former) country as I would my own finances. Specifically, I don't spend more than I take in, and I expect the people I vote for to do the same thing while in office. It is what I pay them to do. Or at least, it was when I was working and paying taxes. I also expect the people I vote for to embrace capitalism and the law that contains those who would exploit the freedom inherent in it. I expect the people I vote for to make sure I have the greatest amount of opportunity. This means that there should be as little interference with the free market as possible. I don't want a bunch of fucking busybodies in DC trying to justify their exhorbitant salaries by restricting how I make money through their craven need for control over the economy. This is what I voted for. I have not gotten what I voted for. Let It Burn.


Close the thread. We have a winner!

Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at November 28, 2012 09:14 AM (zji3t)

100 It is about time to tie elected officials pay to performance.

Deficit spending results in lower pay.

Building surplus results in base pay.

Spending equals receipts results in bonus.

Posted by: sTevo at November 28, 2012 09:14 AM (sYewh)

101 I'm praying for the San Andreas to get jiggy.
Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at November 28, 2012 09:09 AM (GFM2b)


Let's go all in. Major earthquake coupled with massive flooding on the west coast, and then let's have the Cumbre Vieja erupt near the Canary Islands, thus generating a massive tsunami that would wipe out the east coast. I'm in NH and I'd bite it along with everyone else, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice if it means what's left of this country will rebuild itself into the America it USED to be.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at November 28, 2012 09:14 AM (4df7R)

102 I got a feelin when the money gets a little lower you will see a more agressive attempt at collections.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at November 28, 2012 09:13 AM (3Y7RV)

Are there no debtor's prisons?

Posted by: Ebenezer Scrooge at November 28, 2012 09:15 AM (Cnqmv)

103 100 It is about time to tie elected officials pay to performance.

Deficit spending results in lower pay.

Building surplus results in base pay.

Spending equals receipts results in bonus.
Posted by: sTevo at November 28, 2012 09:14 AM (sYewh)

That would work if most of them were not already millionaires. Confinscate there personal wealth and you may have something.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at November 28, 2012 09:16 AM (3Y7RV)

104 >>>We are pretty much seeing the collapse of western democracy.

We will find a guy that's really really good at Excel spreadsheets. Just you watch.

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 28, 2012 09:16 AM (3ZtZW)

105 Ben Bernanke was the first to say "fiscal cliff" while at a Congressional hearing last February 2012.





Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 09:12 AM (70Yu+)



Economics weren't important during the campaign. Back then Mitt's dog was a top news story

Posted by: TheQuietMan at November 28, 2012 09:16 AM (1Jaio)

106 Confiscate their personal wealth and you may have something.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at November 28, 2012 09:16 AM (3Y7RV)

Now there's a tax the rich approach I can go along with!

Posted by: Hrothgar - L.I.B or SMOD (for the Children) at November 28, 2012 09:17 AM (Cnqmv)

107 Jeb Bush is exactly the kind of RINO we need to lead the Republican Party!

Posted by: Joe Scamborough at November 28, 2012 09:17 AM (o2sGG)

108 Are there no debtor's prisons?
Posted by: Ebenezer Scrooge at November 28, 2012 09:15 AM (Cnqmv)


If they're going to die they'd best do it and decrease the surplus population.

(Yes, I'm looking at you, aging hippy Baby Boomers).\

I've become very Malthusian in my thirties.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at November 28, 2012 09:18 AM (4df7R)

109 At the very least, Congressional pay and benefits should be limited to the average pay and benefits package held by an average worker as defined by the last census.

Posted by: Hrothgar - L.I.B or SMOD (for the Children) at November 28, 2012 09:18 AM (Cnqmv)

110

I decided I will not buy a Powerball ticket...for the obvious reasons.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 09:18 AM (70Yu+)

111 No, it would look like the great mortgage walkaway of 2008-2010. People
would simply stop paying taxes period. There will be mass arrests by IRS
collection agents, but that would lead to more citizens not paying.


No. I suspect that would be the beginning of the hard revolution. That's the Boston Tea Party all over again. That will lead to a modern day Boston Massacre.

Once people have decided simply to ignore the law, we're no longer in a "soft" revolution scenario.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 28, 2012 09:18 AM (5DR1j)

112 Just showing off my new ad improved nick.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit, rooting for SMOD or the Mayans, whichever comes first at November 28, 2012 09:19 AM (4df7R)

113 94
@82 I've lived through that, no thanks.

Worse, this lot underwent a nearly lethal mutation/BodySnatcher
Invasion around 1968. Give them free rein and you'll have killing
fields.

That is where the train is headed.. let's get there already! So, I can fight and die and not my kids..

At this point, avoiding this for them and the eventual grandkids is all we really have. Fuck "Let it burn" let's light a match and hand the Dems the lighter fluid.

Posted by: catman at November 28, 2012 09:19 AM (NYdB8)

114

As this crisis grows, the more probability that a huge irrational "solution" will be implemented to save the country.

See how Spain is giving out residency (and, hence, free roaming privileges in Europe) to anyone buying a certain priced house to try to stave off the housing glut/collapse.

See how Quebec, Canada is so desperate to push the "french language," that they are importing in anyone that can speak it -- which is causing cultural havoc (which includes an increase in muslims).

Desperation and irrational results.

What will the US do in desperation to save itself? China is smiling.

Posted by: beach at November 28, 2012 09:20 AM (LpQbZ)

115 No. I suspect that would be the beginning of the hard revolution. That's the Boston Tea Party all over again. That will lead to a modern day Boston Massacre.

And since it's the modern day, the "massacre" part of "Boston Massacre" would really BE a massacre this time.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit, rooting for SMOD or the Mayans, whichever comes first at November 28, 2012 09:20 AM (4df7R)

116 Once people begin to ignore one onerous law, they begin to notice other laws that make no sense or are unduly restrictive and quickly decide that no laws need to be followed.

Posted by: Hrothgar - L.I.B or SMOD (for the Children) at November 28, 2012 09:20 AM (Cnqmv)

117 Total amount of outstanding student loan debt goes up by $42 billion and the student loan repayment default rate goes up 11% in one quarter.

It's almost as if those 'kids' really believe they're going to get the student loans forgiven and don't see any reason to continue paying. And now consumer 'confidence' is on the rise.

Correlation or causation?

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at November 28, 2012 09:20 AM (feFL6)

118 Dark Vision of One Possible Outcome, Senseless Violence Followed by Appropriation. It's not like that's never happened. Mobs with cell phones identifying and robbing people who have money. That's even easier than ethnic violence of the Balkan sort (AKs) or the African sort (machetes). Of course, it would have to be easier for this lot. Right now, I could see it happening in any of several larger markets. (49 to 51, probably, about now.) Matter of fact, it may be that the only reason we haven't seen eruptions here and there, just for leverage purposes, is that the Choomer is lazy and could just be slow off the mar wiv it.

Posted by: Thorvald at November 28, 2012 09:21 AM (1V6Pv)

119 Posted by: Ebenezer Scrooge at November 28, 2012 09:15 AM (Cnqmv)

Exactly. A little time on a floating barge equipped with converted shipping container cells until you get your finances squared away would certainly clarify one's thinking.

Love that line btw ... Are there no debtor's prisons? No work houses? Good, for a moment I thought my taxes weren't being well spent ...

Though now that I think about it, what does it say about me that my favorite character from A Christmas Carol is Mr. Scrooge, and my favorite character from the Simpsons is Mr. Burns?

Posted by: Blacksheep at November 28, 2012 09:21 AM (bS6uW)

120

Oh dear.

You guys.

Posted by: soothsayer at November 28, 2012 09:22 AM (70Yu+)

121 Lots of golf-clap worthy comments here this morning.

Posted by: Lady in Black at November 28, 2012 09:22 AM (lTVJy)

122 Mark with it

Posted by: Thorvald at November 28, 2012 09:22 AM (1V6Pv)

123 I just hope everyone's stocked up on their assless leather chaps* and shoulder spikes.

*BIRM

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit, rooting for SMOD or the Mayans, whichever comes first at November 28, 2012 09:22 AM (4df7R)

124 Once people begin to ignore one onerous law, they begin to notice other
laws that make no sense or are unduly restrictive and quickly decide
that no laws need to be followed.


And from there, a revolution is actually preferable, since that would involve some amount of organization and, likely, people both willing and able to step into the role of government afterwards.

The other option being complete anarchy and chaos.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 28, 2012 09:22 AM (5DR1j)

125 There's no easy way out of the hole we've dug ourselves.

Who's this we white man?

Posted by: Tonto Jokes by ?Franklin? Ajai at November 28, 2012 09:23 AM (Xefrb)

126
@77
The Kircher approach is likely I agree. It's always that more socialism is needed.But they will justify it aftertanking the bubble in the stock market. The fiscal cliff has a built-in selloff of stocksdue to the tax consequences. Another boom-bust broughtto you by the federal government with the money pump, crazy regulation, fiscal cliff plan.

Posted by: Beagle at November 28, 2012 09:24 AM (sOtz/)

127 Jeb Bush @Recent Education Summit:

"There are incredibly fine teachers that get paid less even though they’re doing the Lord’s work consistently over time......."

--------------------------------------

Which Lord would that be Jebby? Fauntleroy?



Posted by: What's Jebby Akin Smokin'? at November 28, 2012 09:24 AM (m7mrm)

128 >>>At this point, avoiding this for them and the eventual grandkids is all we really have. Fuck "Let it burn" let's light a match and hand the Dems the lighter fluid.

Honestly, there is something to this. We can wait until its all set and ready to go, or get them there before they're fully prepped for the harvest. Your pick. They ain't changing their tune. You know it, I know it.

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 28, 2012 09:24 AM (3ZtZW)

129 I knew we were fucked when congress exempted it self from Obamacare. They have no scruples, 0.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at November 28, 2012 09:24 AM (3Y7RV)

130 Jeb Bush @Recent Education Summit:

"There are incredibly fine teachers that get paid less even though they’re doing the Lord’s work consistently over time......."


I hate that phony sanctamonious POS.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at November 28, 2012 09:26 AM (3Y7RV)

131 http://youtu.be/A_sY2rjxq6M

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 28, 2012 09:26 AM (00KTq)

132 114 Desperation and irrational results.
What will the US do in desperation to save itself? China is smiling.


They better bring way better all-you-can-eat buffets or lock and load.

Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at November 28, 2012 09:27 AM (GFM2b)

133 I hate that phony sanctamonious POS.

----

As do I. Which leads me to believe he will be the next GOP presidential nominee. Pushed along by the same woman (name escapes me) who valiantly declared Mitt would be our nominee this go 'round.

Posted by: Lady in Black at November 28, 2012 09:28 AM (lTVJy)

134 The truly irritating point in all of this is the absolute missed talking point those of us who advocate fiscal restraint have.

Mainly, o.k., lefty, lets go ahead and raise the taxes you want and eliminate the deductions you want. That raises another 166 billion in revenue. We have a 1 trillion dollar debt. Where is the other 834 billion coming from?

The blank stares and look of incomprehension would probably be priceless.

That, and the sad, slow realization that they can not spend that 166 billion.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 28, 2012 09:28 AM (OWjjx)

135 NOOD

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at November 28, 2012 09:29 AM (3Y7RV)

136 The blank stares and look of incomprehension would probably be priceless. That, and the sad, slow realization that they can not spend that 166 billion.
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 28, 2012 09:28 AM (OWjjx)


I wish i could agree, but here's what would actually happen:

"We'll just print the rest of the money to make up the difference! And we'll print more so that we can spend more on worthy programs!"

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit, rooting for SMOD or the Mayans, whichever comes first at November 28, 2012 09:30 AM (4df7R)

137 What will the US do in desperation to save itself? China is smiling.

What will the idiot Progs in DC do to "save" us? Nothing that makes sense outside of the Beltway, that's for sure. And you can bet your ass it won't make sense to anyone who can operate a calculator either. Anything that doesn't involve a re-embrace of Capitalism and freedom cannot and will not work.

What should we do to actually save ourselves? How about becoming as self-sufficient as a nation can be? We have a wealth of natural resources and the world's largest consumer market within our shores. We could be making our own products with our own materials. We could concentrate on ourselves and tell the rest of the world that they're on their own: We Come First. You want leadership? We'll show you how it's done. You can either follow our example (which has been proven to work) or do whatever suits you. You are free.

This would require a drastic rethinking of government and its role in the every day affairs of men. So what? It's clear that the farther we've gotten away from the Constitution and limited government, the poorer we've become as a nation.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at November 28, 2012 09:31 AM (lOmbq)

138 We have a 1 trillion dollar debt. Where is the other 834 billion coming from?


----

Point of order..... we have a trillion dollar deficit......

We have a 16 trillion dollar debt, that grows one tril a year.

The new taxes dont even cover the deficit..... NOTHING touches the debt.

166 billion in new taxes covers about 20 days worth of fed spending.

Posted by: fixerupper at November 28, 2012 09:31 AM (nELVU)

139 Where is the other 834 billion coming from?

Elimination of waste and fraud, yo ... just like that cool $500B we pocketed by cleaning things up in order to balance out Obamacare. That did happen, didn't it? Because I specifically recall being told by the President that would happen.

Posted by: Blacksheep at November 28, 2012 09:31 AM (bS6uW)

140 73 There's no easy way out of the hole we've dug ourselves.

1st rule of holes is you never talk about holes.
2nd rule of holes is you never talk about holes.
3rd rule of holes is you never talk about holes.

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 28, 2012 09:32 AM (00KTq)

141
@134 Mallamutt
Financial facts and figures are racist dog whistles.

Posted by: Beagle at November 28, 2012 09:32 AM (sOtz/)

142
4th rule of holes is when in one, stop digging.

Posted by: irongrampa at November 28, 2012 09:34 AM (SAMxH)

143 What will the idiot Progs in DC do to "save" us?

They must be pretty religious...obviously they're praying for a miracle.

Posted by: @PurpAv at November 28, 2012 09:34 AM (00KTq)

144 We still have room to kick the can down the road although it will make the eventual crash worse, and I predict that is what we will do.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 28, 2012 09:35 AM (evdj2)

145 From a politician's point of view, the longer you put off disaster, the fewer options are available when it comes. I think they live by the maxim: Where there's no choice, there's no problem.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 28, 2012 09:37 AM (evdj2)

146 The govt has become That spouse, The one that orders credit cards through the mail, signs em for you, spends up to the credit limit , orders more .. You catch them at it, You ask them to stop, the arguments become more shrill and angry. You can't take anymore, you are now only to pay the minimum, you know you are gong down.


and in this case you are not allowed a divorce.

Posted by: willow at November 28, 2012 09:38 AM (hX8cq)

147 61
The left has been pushing for taxing IRAs etc for few years at least, but it hasn't rec'd much airplay.


Posted by: Baldy at November 28, 2012 09:01 AM (opS9C)

They are sending up the trial balloon for it. The left has been sending up the single payer health care system for decades, and Obamacare is the first step to actually implementing it.
The left isn't about taxing the IRAs, 401Ks, and other retirement plans. The left is about confiscating those funds for what they perceive to be the benefit of society, the welfare queens.
One plan that they floated back when Billy Jeff was President was the "Imputed Income Tax". It worked like this. If you bought your house 20 years ago, and your mortgage payment is $500 month, the government would determine the current value of your home, then figure out what the current mortgage payment would be. So if the current mortgage payment would be $1100 a month, the IRS would say that the $600 a month difference is "income" and you would be taxed on it. So if your salary is $93,000 a year, your new IRS "income" would be $100,000 a year. So a married couple would go from paying $15,506 to $17,256. An increase of $1750 per household.
When you see how much more that tax plan would bring in, you can see why the left would salivate at it. Plus, it has the added bonuses of not going after renters, the young, and those in gubmint housing. And another added bonus is that it goes after the retired, those who actually manage their finances, and the productive members of society.

Posted by: MrCaniac at November 28, 2012 09:38 AM (Zd/NW)

148 3 The do gooders will figure it out when they lose their jobs and the price of everything skyrockets.

-------

No, they won't. They'll start agitating for price controls.

Posted by: The Rent is Too Damn High! at November 28, 2012 09:39 AM (1c58W)

149 "Burn Baby burn" --the rallying cry of the 1965 Watts riots.
Alinsky is warming is hands in the fires of Hell, nodding and laughing with Old Scratch, "I told you L'il Barry was our boy, but those bits with "Frank" were inspired!" Devil nods back: "Consider the source!"

Posted by: Thorvald at November 28, 2012 09:39 AM (1V6Pv)

150 To elaborate, I think that if you wait long enough, the only option for our debt is default, outright and selectively, or hidden in inflation. The politicians are going to wait until that is the only option.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 28, 2012 09:39 AM (evdj2)

151 "We'll just print the rest of the money to make up the difference! And we'll print more so that we can spend more on worthy programs!"

Well, of course, except they won't say "print the money" because the valuable low information voter glued to Keeping Up With The Kardashians can kinda sorta understand that you just can not print money. They will call it Quantative Easing.

Which leads to the follow up: O.K., so we are going to borrow more money....right now we spend 360 billion dollars a year to pay the interest on the national debt.....and your answer is to pay even more interest. Just think of what we could do with that 360 billion if we could just slow our spending down for a few years? Why, it isn't fair to burden our children, 20 year olds and 30 year olds with this debt.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 28, 2012 09:39 AM (OWjjx)

152 >>They are sending up the trial balloon for it

Now's the time to figure out different retirement options. I wonder if the banks will create new plans?

Posted by: uterus cannon at November 28, 2012 09:41 AM (3ZtZW)

153 Politicians and the low-info voters that support them have reached the desperate gambler stage of doubling down with borrowed money.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 28, 2012 09:42 AM (evdj2)

154 The reason 'tax the rich' has worked as a selling point, best as I can tell, has two points to it:

A ) Envy.

B ) Nobody knows the real costs of anything, therefore folks don't realize it would never be enough.

Mostly A. But there's a good bit of B involved as well.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, with gasoline and matches, looking innocent at November 28, 2012 09:44 AM (GBXon)

155 Now that I've read the comments, I see that all of mine are redundant.


LiFB

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 28, 2012 09:45 AM (evdj2)

156 sha lalala live for today.

Posted by: willow at November 28, 2012 09:45 AM (hX8cq)

157 I'm glad the Mittards are finally figuring out that the establishment GOP has never -- NEVER-- been on their side.

Mitt was/is a Boehner/McConnel clone. At the very least, this rolling over and giving up by the GOP establishment necessitates an immediate 3rd party.

As for student loans, there was a whisper campaign (discussed here and elsewhere) all through the election that Obama would forgive student loans if you voted for him.

Here in Cali the time from default to actual foreclosure on a property us now 3 years. That's 3 years of rent free living and consumer spending.

Paying the money you owe the government (because those are all federal loans.) is for suckers.

Posted by: Hopeless at November 28, 2012 09:45 AM (0DMvp)

158 "Fiscal cliff?" Phfftt. Wait until they get a load of us.

Posted by: Social Security and Medicare at November 28, 2012 09:46 AM (r2PLg)

159 But then again, I just realized that everything I have posted is irrelevant because it involves math. And does not involve free shit.

Let it burn.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 28, 2012 09:46 AM (OWjjx)

160 79 I cannot believe that the tax the rich thing sells. All you have to do is some simple math. Tax the rich more and you get about $80 billion a year. The annual deficit is 1.2 trillion. AND NOW WHAT?

Look at your average Obamaphone holder. Look at your average union drone. Look at your average undocumented immigrant. Look at your typical lIbeRal aRts college graduate.

Pretty clear, isn't it?

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 28, 2012 09:48 AM (nKQYl)

161 They must be pretty religious...obviously they're praying for a miracle.

They need something to believe in. I'm ready to offer them the Holy Calculator of Antioch. If it doesn't make sense for a family, it certainly doesn't make sense for a government.

How hard can that be to understand? /rhetorical

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at November 28, 2012 09:48 AM (lOmbq)

162 Seems to me we recently had 2 grown ups running for office who told us straight out that the solutions to our debt problem weren't easy, but possible.

Posted by: LASue at November 28, 2012 09:49 AM (gjIQF)

163 LIB

Kill it with fire.

Posted by: eman at November 28, 2012 09:50 AM (bWwMZ)

164 Mallamutt,

Bingo.

The left, by design, took over education 40-50 years ago.

This is what was planned. Induce financial collapse on an international level so as to achieve... International socialism.

Posted by: Hopeless at November 28, 2012 09:52 AM (R6s86)

165 the Holy Calculator of Antioch.


Heh....

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 28, 2012 09:53 AM (nKQYl)

166 LASue,

Take your Mittard cheerleading and GTFO.

Mitt was just as serious as Boehner and McConell, and ran a fucking horrible campaign staffed with leftists who conveniently managed to botch all the important stuff in the way that most advanced the cause of leftism.

Posted by: Hopeless at November 28, 2012 09:55 AM (R6s86)

167 126

@77
The Kircher approach is likely I agree. It's always that more
socialism is needed.But they will justify it aftertanking the bubble in
the stock market. The fiscal cliff has a built-in selloff of stocksdue
to the tax consequences. Another boom-bust broughtto you by the federal
government with the money pump, crazy regulation, fiscal cliff plan.

Posted by: Beagle at November 28, 2012 09:24 AM (sOtz/)

Any decent portfolio manager has already sold what they need to sell. They will not wait until the last minute. It really won't be a huge sell off since they will need to re-invest that money somewhere, so they will just sell the stock, take the cap gains hit, then buy the stock again with the new price being the basis. What you will have selling in December will be the suckers. The pros will be buying from the suckers.

Posted by: MrCaniac at November 28, 2012 09:57 AM (Zd/NW)

168 I cannot believe that the tax the rich thing sells. All you have to do is some simple math. Tax the rich more and you get about $80 billion a year. The annual deficit is 1.2 trillion. AND NOW WHAT?

Well, actually, the deficit is 1.5 trillion for FY 2011. Some estimates show that if you raise the tax rates and eliminate a number of tax deductions (mortgage interest, for example) you could generate another 166 billion in revenue....which leaves you roughly 1.34 trillion in the hole.

Now, defense runs 834 billion a year. Slash that by 2/3rds (fuck you, North Virginia) and your deficit is still 734 billion. Slash every other discretionary spending item by 10% and you can save another 106 billion. (Mind you, all of these are back of the envelope math). Your still short 628 billion bucks.

We are boned. Unless you put Social Security and Medicare on the table. And you probably can not convince the government to slash defense spending by 2/3rds.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 28, 2012 09:59 AM (OWjjx)

169 Actually, there is an easy way out of our situation. Just take all of the programs in Eduction, Energy, Agriculture, Commerce, HHS,big chunks of Interior, and even pieces of Defense and block grant them to the States. Then write them out of the Federal Register, and cease budgeting for them. (Although it will probably take at least two years to achieve this. Depends on how serious we are about cutting government.)

No programs are interrupted, no sequestration of funds, no battles over higher taxes. Let the debates over the role of government in the citizens' lives occur at the State level where it belogs. The Federal government could quite easily dismantle itself.

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

Posted by: Lessons from the Ceramic Throne at November 28, 2012 10:10 AM (ze9yk)

170 re-elect no one...why do the same people keep getting a chance to get it right?

Posted by: not really here at November 28, 2012 10:10 AM (0AkWH)

171 Just take all of the programs in Eduction, Energy, Agriculture, Commerce, HHS,big chunks of Interior, and even pieces of Defense and block grant them to the States.

The numbers do not work. For FY2012 the US government operated at a 1.56 trillion dollar deficit. Eliminating each of the above departments (discretionary Spending) nets:

Agriculture - 27.6 billion'
Education - 78.9 billion
Commerce - 11.3 billion
Energy - 42.3 billion
Interior - 12.4 billion
HHS - 84.2 billion

I will even through in EPA (9.5 billion), NASA (17.7 billion) and Labor (14 billion) and we have savings of.............297.9 billion. Way short of what you need to close the gap. Throw in another 166 billion in increased revenue and your still only at 463.9 billion.....about 1/3rd of what you need. Take another 400 billion out of defense and your still only at 863.9 billion ---- slightly over half.

If you leave the mandatory spending items off the table you simply can not close the gap.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 28, 2012 10:27 AM (OWjjx)

172 If you leave the mandatory spending items off the table you simply can not close the gap.
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 28, 2012 10:27 AM (OWjjx)


And those items are the heroin to which the USA is addicted.

Posted by: eman at November 28, 2012 10:39 AM (bWwMZ)

173 Plus, everyone knows that you can't just raise tax rates on the rich and
generate enough tax revenue to close the gap to spending


Everyone doesn't know that, in fact, there's millions of people who don't know that and the ones who do know it will either lie to your face about it or say it's still needed to reduce income inequality. I keep saying it but if we ever want tax cuts we can't just talk about in financial terms, we need to start pointing out how disgusting it really is to force people to work for government under threat of imprisonment, steal their money and pass it out. There is no counter argument to that other than to admit you're a fascist who wants to enslave people.

Posted by: booger at November 28, 2012 10:40 AM (HI6wa)

174 Fiscal cliff? Ahahah! Who cares. Don't you know how cool the president is? That is all we need.

Posted by: rough times chooming in Hawaii at November 28, 2012 10:47 AM (Kflw4)

175 As far as kicking the can down the road...

Tired of this shit!

When do we run out of road?

I'm done dreading/worrying about this. If members of Congress can't be arsed to give a shit, why should I?

Not like I have any say about anything.

My new political philosophy is this; "Sure! Go for it, buddy! Why the fuck not?!"

Posted by: Deety loves SMOD at November 28, 2012 10:49 AM (QG3g9)

176 You cannot starve the beast.

Leviathan will not be denied.

Revenue has nothing to do with anything it will always be more, more, more, more SPENDING!

This is the ineluctable truth of our current situation, we are all just cogs in the machine and and every gear is set to FORWARD.

Don't even try to slow or halt it.

The tension is too much.

Only difference between me & Nancy P. is she thinks that this is a GOOD thing.

(Deeply stupid woman is Pelosi & a moral monster to boot!)

Posted by: Deety loves SMOD at November 28, 2012 11:02 AM (QG3g9)

177 Yep, give the Dems EVERYTHING they want right now. ALL of it, then start telling the world daily that the Dems got it all, that the Dems now OWN it all too. And, no more blame Bush and Republicans. And, at the same time say NO MORE. This is the end of "compromise" and giving in.

Posted by: LYNNDH at November 28, 2012 11:08 AM (mr9Ns)

178
If anyone wants to be realistic, there is no way out of the hole we have dug except straight through the other side and right past Chinese customs and immigration.

As we amass ruinous debt, westruggle and fail toeven slow the increase in the borrowing, never you mind climbing out. The digging will not stop until the bottom is breached and everyone falls up into orbit.

That which cannot continue will not continue. The federal goose is cooked. I think the best thing that could happen at this point is if we broke into several smaller countries.Some statescould manage to throw themselves clear of the wreckage, the Republics of Texas andUtah would not be liable for the unpayable debts of D.C. and they would at least have a chance of preserving a decent life.

Posted by: entropy at November 28, 2012 11:10 AM (TULs6)

179 And Barry is still photo-oping his way across America. Campaigning is all he can do...

Posted by: Hello, it's me Donna let it burn really.really bummed at November 28, 2012 11:11 AM (9+ccr)

180 Andy, I strongly disagree with your statement that "everyone knows." I am actually related to people who think that if the US would just cut foreign aid and Congress' salary and benefit plans, the budget would be balanced.

Some people are too f*(king stupid to live,but unfortunately they get to not only breathe my oxygen, but vote too.

Posted by: the other coyote at November 28, 2012 11:33 AM (yK44T)

181 man, i really like this guy bill whittle. he's only been on my radar for about two years -- learned of him here, natch -- but i watch his youtubes all the time now, and even email them to colleagues and my fiancé. he's not only a very capable explicator, but the tone of his voice is, to me at least, somehow oddly soothing!

too bad his videos are so depressing. ._.

Posted by: jimi ray at November 28, 2012 03:15 PM (79EF9)

182 If you leave the mandatory spending items off the table you simply can not close the gap.
Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at November 28, 2012 10:27 AM (OWjjx)
***************************
You're right, of course. I was sneaking in time at work to post that and left it kinda incomplete. Yes, dump EPA, NASA, and the whole damn batch of alphabet soup. By all means either throw Social Security to the States, too, or privatise it. Medicare and Medicaid require a different approach - something more along the lines of getting away from the "Buyer's Club" model of medical coverage and reverting back to a for-real insurance (e.g. catastrophic coverage, and pay-for-your-own-damn-oil-change--brake-job)type of model. That might take another year, and then the gubmint can be out of the health / medical care business entirely.

Defense, State, Treasury, maybe a piece of Interior (until we can work out the transfer of Federal land holdings) get a pass, because they are constituted. As is the IRS.But let the States do the citizen involvement things.We have got to break the mind-set that only the Federal government can do things.

Posted by: Lessons from the Ceramic Throne at November 28, 2012 03:25 PM (ze9yk)

183 [] [/]

Posted by: Capt. Backfire (Formerly J.A.M) at December 01, 2012 08:08 PM (mkb9H)

184 #38

Posted by: Capt. Backfire (Formerly J.A.M) at December 01, 2012 08:22 PM (mkb9H)

185 ""#38"

Posted by: Capt. Backfire (Formerly J.A.M) at December 01, 2012 08:23 PM (mkb9H)

186 "#38"

Posted by: Capt. Backfire (Formerly J.A.M) at December 01, 2012 08:26 PM (mkb9H)






Processing 0.03, elapsed 0.0483 seconds.
15 queries taking 0.0219 seconds, 195 records returned.
Page size 127 kb.
Powered by Minx 0.7 alpha.

MuNuvians
MeeNuvians
Polls! Polls! Polls!
Frequently Asked Questions
The (Almost) Complete Paul Anka Integrity Kick
Top Top Tens
Greatest Hitjobs

The Ace of Spades HQ Sex-for-Money Skankathon
A D&D Guide to the Democratic Candidates
Margaret Cho: Just Not Funny
More Margaret Cho Abuse
Margaret Cho: Still Not Funny
Iraqi Prisoner Claims He Was Raped... By Woman
Wonkette Announces "Morning Zoo" Format
John Kerry's "Plan" Causes Surrender of Moqtada al-Sadr's Militia
World Muslim Leaders Apologize for Nick Berg's Beheading
Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree
Milestone: Oliver Willis Posts 400th "Fake News Article" Referencing Britney Spears
Liberal Economists Rue a "New Decade of Greed"
Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility
Intelligence Officials Eye Blogs for Tips
They Done Found Us Out, Cletus: Intrepid Internet Detective Figures Out Our Master Plan
Shock: Josh Marshall Almost Mentions Sarin Discovery in Iraq
Leather-Clad Biker Freaks Terrorize Australian Town
When Clinton Was President, Torture Was Cool
What Wonkette Means When She Explains What Tina Brown Means
Wonkette's Stand-Up Act
Wankette HQ Gay-Rumors Du Jour
Here's What's Bugging Me: Goose and Slider
My Own Micah Wright Style Confession of Dishonesty
Outraged "Conservatives" React to the FMA
An On-Line Impression of Dennis Miller Having Sex with a Kodiak Bear
The Story the Rightwing Media Refuses to Report!
Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)
News/Chat