New Feature: Weekly Guns & Hunting Thread

I was going to do this on the weekend, but it looks like there's popular demand, so what the heck.

Here's the overall plan for what this post is going to cover. First, if there's firearms/hunting related news, it'll get featured. Big events like Fast & Furious developments warrant their own posts, obviously, but we'll reference them in the weekly posts as well. This will cross into the political at times, for obvious reasons, but it will always be topical.

Second, I got the idea to make this a regular feature a couple of weeks ago when we were discussing what gun was in the picture on Dave's Veteran's Day post. The prize went to 'andycanuck', who identified it as a 1916 French 37mm gun. I like gun trivia like this, and I know lots of the Moron Horde does as well, so I thought we'd do a featured gun of the week and either do a poll for a visual identification trivia contest or just do a profile of a historical piece.

As this is the inaugural thread, throw out other ideas in the comments. Now, on with the show.

Preserving the Second Amendment

Are you a member of the National Rifle Association, Gun Owners of America or other second amendment-related organization? If not, you should consider it, given that a certain SCOAMF now has "more flexibility" and has already claimed to be running an under the radar campaign for gun control.

Also, there are some very good state second amendment organizations*. I belong to what is arguably the best of them, the Massachusetts Gun Owners Action League. They've been fighting the good fight behind enemy lines.

Marksmanship Award

Cam Edwards, who hosts Cam and Company on NRA News web/satellite radio, is a good Twitter follow, and he regularly links heartwarming stories like this:


Gun of the Week

This one's not unique by any stretch of the imagination, but given the upcoming holiday season and the extreme level of joy felt by any kid who's gotten a the only present that comes in a long, skinny box shaped like that, I present the Ruger 10/22:

With about 6 million of these in circulation and every accessory imaginable available, it's hard to go wrong with one of these. I have 2.

Gun Poll


Guns and hunting-related discussion in the comments.

* Link added. Thanks to 'wizardpc' in the comments.

Posted by: Andy at 12:10 PM



Comments

1 Yay!

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 12:11 PM (GRvW4)

2 Hellooooooo

Posted by: RioBravo at November 21, 2012 12:12 PM (eEfYn)

3 Awesome.

Posted by: GnuBreed at November 21, 2012 12:12 PM (ccXZP)

4 Yeah but the Remington Nylon 66 rules, just try to find one, if you got em hold em...

Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 12:12 PM (Q8Pu5)

5 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:13 PM (8y9MW)

6 Weekly!

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 12:13 PM (YdQQY)

7 10/22 is a lot of fun. I bought one for my girls even though they're too young to shoot. Great training rifle.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:13 PM (t06LC)

8 did I mention the Marlin Model 60 is a close call, who need all that stuff for a gun that maxes with Iron Sites beyond 80 meters?

Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 12:13 PM (Q8Pu5)

9 Guns and hunting-related discussion in the comments.

Yes, because somehow guns will be the cure for the Moron ADHD, and we'll stay on topic in this thread.

Bless your heart.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:14 PM (8y9MW)

10 I have one of those 10/22's. Mighty fine rifle gun as Sargent York would say.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 12:14 PM (YdQQY)

11 I owned a 10/22. Not very accurate, IMO.
Try a Remington 597 if you want a tack-driver auto .22.

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 21, 2012 12:14 PM (JJ+PT)

Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (Q8Pu5)

13 So, in real terms, when would you teach your child to shoot. My elder child is 5.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (8y9MW)

14 I think that groups like the NRA and the 2nd Amendment Foundation are the most successful grassroots orgs we have. The Dem party lives because of all of their crappy little organizations. We need about 500 NRA's to help us win election.

Posted by: JustLikeDavidHasselhoff at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (71iUa)

15 I would like to buy a phased plasma rifle in a 40 watt range.

Posted by: OregonMuse at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (9GaPd)

16
So, in real terms, when would you teach your child to shoot. My elder child is 5.


Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (8y9MW)


Same here.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (da5Wo)

17
yes! Now is this going to be considered a political thread or not?

Posted by: California Red at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (icSBv)

18 Mini 14 was the first rifle I got. Not as good...

It had potential, the mags were a big letdown. I got it during the ban though, so it was good for the time.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (t06LC)

19 Have any of you morons actually done a 80%ARLower build? Was it very difficult?

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 12:16 PM (QupBk)

20 I would like to buy a phased plasma rifle in a 40 watt range.


Posted by: OregonMuse at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (9GaPd)

and that long-slide .45 ..

Posted by: T1 at November 21, 2012 12:16 PM (JJ+PT)

21 I still believe in the 66 Remington, spot on accuracy and never see any for sale..

Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 12:16 PM (Q8Pu5)

22 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.gungrabber.
FIFY
Try to stay on topic.

Posted by: Roland THTG at November 21, 2012 12:16 PM (I7O5y)

23 I'm pretty sure a Ruger .22 (but a bolt action) is what we used for our riflery merit badge in Boy Scouts.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:16 PM (8y9MW)

24 So it this a "See how big my dick is cuz I've got the most/biggest guns" thread? Or can we re-debate the endless caliber = stopping power topic?

Love both, so fire at will. Also open to providing what assistance I can to those considering purchasing a firearm for the first time. It is, and should be, a humbling experience ... all American males assume that they emerge from the womb instantly capable of hitting the X at 50 yards with a .45. With one hand.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 12:16 PM (GRvW4)

25 13 Allen G,

I was taught starting at 3 and seriously at age 5.

Nowadays it depends on the range and your local mores. My son is 12 and I finally don't feel the stares at the range having him along. Use your judgement.

Posted by: Harlekwin15 at November 21, 2012 12:17 PM (LRFds)

26 @16
I started at about 5 or 6. Highly supervised. I went hunting with my uncle and shot a Model 1894 winchester that belonged to my grandpa. I got a bb gun for my 5th birthday, so I did have fundementals. I was tought to respect firearms, not fear them.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:17 PM (t06LC)

27 Have any of you morons actually done a 80%ARLower build? Was it very difficult?

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 12:16 PM (QupBk)

If you can change a spark plug, you should do alright.

Posted by: T1 at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (JJ+PT)

28 Try to stay on topic.

The statement: "Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor" is never off topic.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (8y9MW)

29 Mayors Against Illegal Guns



SAF makes a correction - Gun Owners Against Illegal Mayors...

http://tinyurl.com/bmx2y7z

Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (fWAjv)

30 I'm buying my husband a Ruger 10/22 Takedown for Christmas. My first gun purchase ever.

Posted by: DangerGirl - feeling empty at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (c3tQX)

31 The best type of rifle to start young children on is a single shot .22 until you have confidence in safety. After they have been using it on "squirrel expeditions" for a while then consider an auto-loader.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (YdQQY)

32 I bought my son a Ruger 10/22 when he was 7. He is almost 10 now. I may give it to him someday, or I may just buy him another one. It is fun to shoot.

Posted by: California Red at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (icSBv)

33 >> Yeah but the Remington Nylon 66 rules, just try to find one, if you got em hold em...

Heh. I have one of those too.

It's a great little rifle.

Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (OZPoa)

34 I want a 10/22 or similar for myself. Princess has a few years to go yet. Cougar is gonna pick hers out soonish.

Shit, I gotta go to work. Been looking forward to this for a while....to bad all my guns were lost in a tragic, um, bear attack. yeah, bear attack. Tragic, it was.

Posted by: DC in Towson at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (Ai+tZ)

35
Is this the thread where we could, perhaps, discuss the greatly-improved Salmon fishing on the Sacramento River this year?
Those years of closures following the near-extinction seemed to have done what they were intended to do, all of the bitching (myself included) notwithstanding.

Posted by: Gunslinger at November 21, 2012 12:19 PM (4S7hN)

36 Know what the most embarrassing thing about shooting a .22 (rifle or pistol) is?

Discovering that out to 50 yards, you end up shooting more accurately with a little $250 .22 than with your $600 bolt action 7mm Mag deer rifle or .357 revolver.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:19 PM (SY2Kh)

37 Hey Andy, considering the topic, can we pretty pretty please have a super duper, fuck you up the ass dry with the barbed cock of satan while Dick Cheney's WarCock rapes your face style BanHammer?


We really don't need Hector like shit on these posts.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 21, 2012 12:19 PM (da5Wo)

38 I have a list of state-level organizations here.

Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 12:19 PM (HDCAA)

39 The Moose advice on guns. Most beginners go the wrong direction when they pick a gun. They pick the gun then look at the round offerings and choose one. The most important choice about a new weapon is the round that it shoots, and that decision should be made first, then you evaluate the list of weapons that shoot your round instead of doing it the other way around.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 12:19 PM (0q2P7)

40 sorry, here:
http://gunscarstech.com/state-level-organizations/

Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 12:19 PM (HDCAA)

41 Anyone here into Title II (Class 3) firearms? I have a small collection of them, and was wondering if there were any other morons with some. I currently have several SBRs and Silencers.

If you want to get in to the Class 3 world, I recommend starting with a .22 Silencer. They are endlessly fun and cheap to shoot. The problem will be you'll want to have every .22 you own threaded.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 12:20 PM (pLTLS)

42 all American males assume that they emerge from the womb instantly
capable of hitting the X at 50 yards with a .45. With one hand.



While doing a combat roll. Oh, and the range is 150 yards.

Posted by: fluffy watches movies! at November 21, 2012 12:20 PM (z9HTb)

43 >> Now is this going to be considered a political thread or not?

It's mixed. I'd say the technical answer is "No", but if you're talking about Fast Furious or gun control, that's pretty hard to avoid.

Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:20 PM (OZPoa)

44 Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 12:19 PM (0q2P7)

yup.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 12:20 PM (GRvW4)

45 13 So, in real terms, when would you teach your child to shoot. My elder child is 5.



And cute as a button...

Posted by: DangerGirl - feeling empty at November 21, 2012 12:20 PM (c3tQX)

46 26 Jolly Roger,

Amen, I wonder if society keeping the weapon mystical into the mid adolescent stage is part of why shootings are up?

Posted by: Harlekwin15 at November 21, 2012 12:21 PM (LRFds)

47 Now for some Ruger praise: Their new .22 auto handgun, the SR-22 is a keeper.


Posted by: Joe Mama at November 21, 2012 12:21 PM (JJ+PT)

48 If you can change a spark plug, you should do alright.

Really? Hmm. I have some general machine shoppery skills and a drill press. I don't really have any milling equipment, per se, except a Dremel Tool.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 12:21 PM (QupBk)

49 I was in the NRA for years. But i just couldnt send them my money anymore. They support lots of lite weight democrats on the local and national level. i love the second ammendment, but cant ignore the other rights we have as the NRA does. When their grade A politicians get to washington they vote lockstep with Pelosi and Reed. Cant support that.

Posted by: Cottonmouth at November 21, 2012 12:21 PM (9cNt9)

50 There's a local crazy drunk story where I know the perp and I dread it will make headlines across the country. And if it does it'll show up here.

Totally moron behavior. Stay tuned.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at November 21, 2012 12:22 PM (5Hk3U)

51 >>>Discovering that out to 50 yards, you end up shooting more accurately
with a little $250 .22 than with your $600 bolt action 7mm Mag deer
rifle or .357 revolver.

Well the 7mm and .357 are both more accurate, it's just difficult to keep that accuracy beyond three shots. As that's the number of repetitions for your shoulder or hands to figure out that recoil is coming when you start to depress the trigger which will ruin your accuracy.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 12:22 PM (0q2P7)

52 As to the hunting stuff I will have to bow out. About the only thing I would really like to hunt anymore is doves and all the places that have those are now posted.


All those farmers that "just ain't making it" now lease their plowed over corn fields and others to hunting clubs now.


I refuse to join a hunting club.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 12:22 PM (YdQQY)

53 Did hostess lives die, ..... hoping.

Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 12:22 PM (tVTLU)

54 Just bought a Beretta Neo .22 to do much of my shooting at the range.

I love being able to buy a box of 500 ammo for 15.00.

I'll still shoot a box of 50 .45 and 9MM whichallowsme to spend my money of other fun stuffthan the 3 or 4 I used to shoot.

Posted by: polynikes at November 21, 2012 12:22 PM (m2CN7)

55 >> Have any of you morons actually done a 80%ARLower build? Was it very difficult?

Dirt simple, but I'm pretty mechanically-inclined.

Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:22 PM (OZPoa)

56 @ 39 Is that why they made the 44-40 a legend Uncle Mike?

Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 12:22 PM (Q8Pu5)

57 And cute as a button...

Thanks, DG.

Of course, I'm pretty sure my daughter is going to be the gun nut. Which is okay with me?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:22 PM (8y9MW)

58 The 10/22's fun factor is hard to beat.

Posted by: Crashpanic at November 21, 2012 12:22 PM (62b6U)

59 Great idea. The Ruger 10/22 is basically a M-1a with a smaller caliber. They are great punkers, accurate and cheap. I have a couple tricked out with folding stocks, site, etc. You can get them for about $300.

My son bought his college roommate one as a wedding present and had the shop engrave his and his wife's initials on the barrel and the date of their wedding.


She was not too thrilled. He was.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (wR+pz)

60
The range by me lets 8 year olds shoot rifles with parental supervision. I snuck my little guy in when he was 7 1/2.
The range officers were very friendly and were totally on board with heling me teach teach responsible, safe, marksmanship.

Posted by: California Red at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (icSBv)

61 I hope the Horde knows there's a difference between an 80% lower build which requires machining and just assembling an AR15 lower.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (pLTLS)

62 I first learned the ways of the gun on the bolt action Ruger .22. Later the M-16 and, for one glorious afternoon the Ma Deuce.

But for hunting and other acts of skill, no firearm can compete with a simple bow of yew in the hands of one trained to use. Also,the longbow is practical for the coming zombie apocalypse.

The Longbow.

Zombies would call it "whispering death"

if they could talk.

Posted by: Thewy Sinewed Chap at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (RuUvx)

63 27 Have any of you morons actually done a 80%ARLower build? Was it very difficult?

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 12:16 PM (QupBk)
If you can change a spark plug, you should do alright.

Posted by: T1 at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (JJ+PT)

An 80% lower requires a little milling, so it's more complicated than changing a spark plug.

Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (HDCAA)

64 7 10/22 is a lot of fun. I bought one for my girls even though they're too young to shoot. Great training rifle.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:13 PM (t06LC)



It is. 10/.22 is the best rifle for starting out the young'uns. Easy to shoot and safe. I learned on a Winchester Model 62 pump, tube feed. Think old-timey carnival plinkers and it's identical. An SFC buddy of mine has squirrel hunted with the same 10/.22 for about 30 years.

Remington Nylon 66 - A high school buddy had one. .22 for .22, he was very difficult to outshoot.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (sGWH5)

65 Its worth keeping in mind, that while Wayne LaPierre likes to pretend he owns the Fast and Furious narrative - that he an the NRA BOD had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the fight.

And, keep in mind Larry Craig - who STILL sits on the BOD.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (qBLA2)

66
I love single shot shotguns by NEF. It's a great learning gun for any other type of shotgun, and can be shot very quickly if you regularly practice. I can now load a pump shotgun much quicker because of the 1000 or so rounds I've put through single shot break open shotguns.

My favorite is the NEF tamer 20 gauge. It can even be broken down and carried in a little bag for car travel and hotels. A home defense shotgun away from home.


Posted by: JustLikeDavidHasselhoff at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (71iUa)

67 Best multi-purpose rifle for quality and price is the Remington 7600 pump. I have mine in .308 but you can get it in other calibers.

Posted by: polynikes at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (m2CN7)

68 55 >> Have any of you morons actually done a 80%ARLower build? Was it very difficult?

*raises hand*

Not hard at all, actually.

Posted by: Crashpanic at November 21, 2012 12:24 PM (62b6U)

69 If you can change a spark plug, you should do alright.



Really? Hmm. I have some general machine shoppery skills and a
drill press. I don't really have any milling equipment, per se, except a
Dremel Tool.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 12:21 PM (QupBk)

A good set of punches are handy, and some dental picks for finagling springs and small parts into place are good too.

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 21, 2012 12:24 PM (JJ+PT)

70 @46

I wonder about that. Of course, I went to a gun store the other day and a kid about 6 or 7 was schooling his dad on the SCAR 17 based on his Call of Duty knowledge. I have no idea what effect these hyper realistic FPS are going to have on the next generation.

I wouldn't dare touch a gun at that age without an adult. I didn't have to, they would be happy to show me. All the guns were in a glass cabinet right there in the open, but as a child it wasn't that big a deal to me.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:24 PM (t06LC)

71 I have a couple of 22 rifles but am thinking of buying a Henry pump action 22 as a nostalgic addition to the collection.

http://www.henryrepeating.com/rifle-pump.cfm

Posted by: Buzzsaw at November 21, 2012 12:24 PM (tf9Ne)

72 I have often thought how much better off we would be if we bought our kids guns and let them shoot them for hunting or on target as opposed to giving them video games that allow mass slaughter with you as the imaginary shooter. It seems pretty clear to me which is preferable and less likely to result in your kid becoming mentally unstable. They might even get a little exercise along the way.

Posted by: ejo at November 21, 2012 12:25 PM (GXvSO)

73 I added an 'international' stock to my 1022 and upgraded the trigger, etc.

What a sweet little rifle.

Lately I've customized my SKS, swapped in a .380 barrel for my Makarov, and built a complete AR from the first pin up.

I luvs me my guns. Got dozens.

Posted by: trainer @ Home at November 21, 2012 12:25 PM (1QEkm)

74 Of course, I'm pretty sure my daughter is going to be the gun nut. Which is okay with me?



Nothing wrong with that at all. She also qualifies as cute as a button. Actually your entire family is adorable.

Posted by: DangerGirl - feeling empty at November 21, 2012 12:25 PM (c3tQX)

75 I like my 10-22. I started the boy at about 8 yrs. single shot or bolt for a kid. Auto loaders need a little more care. I've been shooting Winchester 40 gr LR buying them bulk (500 rd). Having alot of misfires. Anyone else having this issue?

Posted by: NativeNH at November 21, 2012 12:25 PM (quo6Y)

76 What is a good age to get your kids started with a BB gun?

Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 12:26 PM (tVTLU)

77 hey, a topic I know somethin about

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 12:26 PM (2CiZb)

78 61
I hope the Horde knows there's a difference between an 80% lower build
which requires machining and just assembling an AR15 lower.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (pLTLS)


Missed that. Ignore previous post. Carry on.

Posted by: Joe Mama at November 21, 2012 12:26 PM (JJ+PT)

79 But for hunting and other acts of skill, no firearm can compete with a
simple bow of yew in the hands of one trained to use. Also,the longbow
is practical for the coming zombie apocalypse.


If you're not highly skilled, though, go for the crossbow.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:26 PM (8y9MW)

80 As for accuracy, the most accurate rifle I ever shot was an 03-A3 Springfield using hand loaded boat-tail spire points.



Could put 3 round groups in less than a thumbnail at 100 yards using the original military iron sights. (100 yards was the length of our available range at the time)

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 12:26 PM (YdQQY)

81 I always thought my 10/22 was a great little rifle... except for the fact it could be downright finicky with ammunition in factory magazines. Was always my grab-no-go feral cat rifle. I acquired a Henry lever .22 later, and found it to be a much more agreeable eater. Poor little 10/22 sits in the safe now.

Posted by: Henry at November 21, 2012 12:26 PM (pJpLq)

82 61 Witchfinder,

very much so...

I am wary of it b/c one day they are going to label that "creating a weapon" and demand clamping down on it I suspect.

Posted by: Harlekwin15 at November 21, 2012 12:27 PM (LRFds)

83 my kids started with a DAisy BB gun at age 3


They can't cock it, so you'll do that for hours

they also don't understand sights, but have a good time

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 12:27 PM (2CiZb)

84 @76 depends on the kid. As soon as they're mature enough to understand that shooting the cat/neighbor/television--while funny--is wrong and they show an interest, let em have it.

My wife started shooting when she was 4.

Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 12:27 PM (HDCAA)

85 76 What is a good age to get your kids started with a BB gun?
Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 12:26 PM (tVTLU)

I was 5. And that was with very little supervision.

Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 12:28 PM (fWAjv)

86 A good set of punches are handy, and some dental picks for finagling springs and small parts into place are good too.

I've got all those kind of things, just not a working engine lathe or dedicated miller.

I think it would be cool to have my own rifle, serial#TTM1556-000000001.

Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 12:28 PM (QupBk)

87 Palmetto State Armory for lowers and kits.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:28 PM (qBLA2)

88 8-10 is a good starter age, but as with anything else it depends on the kid. If they can focus on a task for longer than five minutes, your good to go. Some might say 12 or older, but again it depends on the kid. Every kid should learn to shoot on a .22. Best gun for teaching fundamentals. But you shouldn't let Ny kid around a gun without teaching them firearms safety first. Some places have hunter safety courses you could send them too if you can't do it yourself, though for the hsc's the kid has to be older, 13 I think, min.

Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 12:28 PM (OvRHg)

89 Nothing was found on Mars. Carry on.

Posted by: RioBravo at November 21, 2012 12:28 PM (eEfYn)

90 I have been contemplating getting a Mini-14 and have been doing a bit of research (the target model looks promising). However, my son just got an AR-15 and I'm green with jealousy.

Pros/cons of each?

Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at November 21, 2012 12:29 PM (ZdRSq)

91 For over 15 years Thanksgiving morning has been our annual squirrel (and rabbit if we can jump one or two up) hunt for me, my brother-in-laws, their kids and mine.

My oldest carries his great-grand dad's 20gauge, my youngest my .410 given to me by my father when I was 9. Me? I carry my Ruger Mark II pistol that my Dad gave me when I was 14 for Christmas.

It's more than hunt, it a tradition. It's family. It's being together with some frost on the ground and nip in the air. It's smelling smoke from a wood stove hanging low in a hollar. It's joking and laughing as we skin 'em out and clean 'em up. It's talking about when we hunts when we were kids.

Then we clean up and get ready to eat a Thanksgiving meal TOGETHER. As a family. About 15-18 of us. Two "kid tables" pushed into two corners. Great grand kids sitting in high chairs. Prayer said before we eat... thanking God for all that we take for granted. His love for us, our country, our health, the beauty of the day, the gift of another, and a large family brought together for a few hours to share a meal that is possible by his blessings.

Tomorrow morning the kids will hop up, all excited, throw their clothes on, complain the truck is cold and have a ball again. For them its just "the squirrel hunt" like every year. It won't be for years, until they have their own kids hunting with them, will they understand how truly great these hunts are. What they are really for. What they really mean. What they really do.

I only wish my Dad was still with us... so he could go along and see the young men his grandsons are becoming.


Posted by: wecross at November 21, 2012 12:29 PM (hh+cN)

92 Well the 7mm and .357 are both more accurate, it's just difficult to
keep that accuracy beyond three shots. As that's the number of
repetitions for your shoulder or hands to figure out that recoil is
coming when you start to depress the trigger which will ruin your
accuracy.


It's not just that- with a recoil pad and avoiding the heavier 180gr rounds, it's not that bad. With a pistol, I think it's just the lighter weight. With a rifle, I don't know. The barrel on the 7mm does get hot very quickly though.

Now the Ruger SRH in .454 Casull? Different story. Even with a padded glove, you're not going to be shooting very well after 20 rounds of full power loads unless you're built like The Hulk.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:29 PM (SY2Kh)

93 23
I'm pretty sure a Ruger .22 (but a bolt action) is what we used for our riflery merit badge in Boy Scouts.

Allen, it would not surprise me. My son worked a Philmont Scout Ranch years ago as a shotgun instructor. They had three Ruger over and under red labels, cheapest over and under Ruger makes. He said they shot at LEAST 10,000 rounds through each and never had a misfire or problem. The third gun was a back that was never used.

I have always had good luck with the accuracy of a 10/22, someone said earlier they had a problem. I am guessing user error.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at November 21, 2012 12:29 PM (wR+pz)

94 mini 14s are pretty reliable - which is good because their accuracy sucks.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:29 PM (qBLA2)

95 Thanks for the responses. My boy is 4 and I bought it for him when he was born, just a simple Daisy model I had as a kid. My daughter is 7 but I haven't let her try it yet.

Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 12:29 PM (tVTLU)

96 49 I was in the NRA for years. But i just couldnt send them my money anymore. They support lots of lite weight democrats on the local and national level. i love the second ammendment, but cant ignore the other rights we have as the NRA does. When their grade A politicians get to washington they vote lockstep with Pelosi and Reed. Cant support that.
Posted by: Cottonmouth at November 21, 2012 12:21 PM (9cNt9)

I'm not happy about it, but what the NRA has done is make themselves a bipartisan issue. Think about it, although Dems controlled the presidency and congress, we didn't hear so much as a whisper of a new ban. If a party gets in power, one of the first things to do is punish the supporters of the other party. The NRA has somewhat succeeded in turning a large number of Dems to thier cause.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:29 PM (t06LC)

97 @ 39 Is that why they made the 44-40 a legend Uncle Mike?

If you are discussing weapons that are over 100 yrs old that came out at the dawn of repeating firearms. Repeating rifles were brand new. In that age, the gun technology became a bigger consideration than the round which at that time rounds had very little variance in performance.

Nowadays a hundred and thirty years later, no significant developments in improving gun technology has been made for decades, good guns are available in all common calibers with a myriad of features; and now round performance varies wildly from guns that still shoot rounds designed over 100 years ago to ultra-mags pushing 3600ft/sec of muzzle velocity with new rounds being introduced all the time. In today's world the round is the bigger decision.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 12:30 PM (0q2P7)

98 As far as building an AR15 from a lower, that's pretty easy. I resisted for years and finally built one a few months ago. I thought it was going to take a couple of days because OH LOOK A SQUIRREL! but I got it done in about an hour.

Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 12:30 PM (HDCAA)

99 55 >> Have any of you morons actually done a 80%ARLower build? Was it very difficult?

Dirt simple, but I'm pretty mechanically-inclined.
Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:22 PM (OZPoa)


Very simple. Pin punches, brass drifts and precision screwdrivers are necessary, though. Hemostats help, also. Consider a set of swiss pattern micro files.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 12:30 PM (sGWH5)

100 Love the 10/22.
My mostest favoritest gun in my collection is a .22 as well. Winchester Model 61, manufactured in 1939, shoots straight and is a thing of beauty. Love it!

Posted by: BuckIV at November 21, 2012 12:30 PM (gedHR)

101 10/.22 Take down on sale at Cabela's for $280.00



Also, Leahy dropped his 'no warrant needed' bill.

Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 12:30 PM (fWAjv)

102
ERRRAH Andy. Good thread.

toby:
Why the 80% build? Complete strippedlowers are dirt cheap. I think it was Palmetto selling blemished lowers for $65 or something. Is it a hobby thing, or a don't-want-the-NICS-check thing? Because NICS doesn't know what you buy, just that you were interested in buying something. Further, it's truer than ever: "When it's time to bury your guns to hide them, it's already time to dig them up." It's not going to come to that. Even the engineers of disastrous green energy corporatism are not stupid enough to start chasing anyone suspected of having a firearm. A rifle behind every blade of grass - and who collects them anyway? Mall cops? Because the world's best infantrymen would not view that as a lawful order.
If it's just for the fun of it, enjoy, and sorryI can't provide instruction. But if it's to keep a rifle "off the grid," I wouldn't worry about it. The confiscation will never happen, and follied attempts would end badly.

Now feeding a rifle under unfriendly, rent-seeking assholes is another issue altogether.
rons in general:
Do I start reloading or just bulk-buy more 5.56? That's my question.
If you say I should spend my precious Washingtonson factory ammo, what's cheap right now? Most of what I've shotis M193/55gr, because it's cheap and I'm a shot-placement-over-bullet-weight kind of guy,but I'm down with M855 as well. I am used to paying under 35 cents a round - last big buy was the IMI case(+) from Wideners, but alas, none in stock in ages. Where should I buy? What's the best deal out there today?

If you say reload, give me a realistic idea of what a boot reloader could do. Based on my math, it should already pay itself off with a $600 investment for a progressive press, initial buys of powder and primer, if I'm saving 15 cents per round. How is it paid off? Well, at 15 cents per round savings, that's 4000 rounds. And I have way more than 4000pieces of once-fired brass in my basement. I might have twice that. But will the shit drive me crazy? How much time would it realistically take to safely load that many rounds? How much time will I spend de-priming? What else do I have to do to the brass? Blah blah blah. Yes, I know the answers are out there, in a million forums, websites, magazines, and books, but I want YOU to tell me.

Decide my future - buy a factory case or twoand never look back, or start reloading? Send your traffic.

Posted by: 0302 at November 21, 2012 12:30 PM (mtyCh)

103 Posted by: wecross at November 21, 2012 12:29 PM (hh+cN)

Dude, I actually teared up a little bit. That was really nice. Seriously.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (GRvW4)

104 Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at November 21, 2012 12:29 PM (ZdRSq)


The mini14 will get the job done but go with the AR15.

an AR is definately a step up and are endlessly modifiable

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (2CiZb)

105 31
The best type of rifle to start young children on is a single shot .22
until you have confidence in safety. After they have been using it on
"squirrel expeditions" for a while then consider an auto-loader.


Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (YdQQY)
Agreed. I have a Remington 510 just for that purpose. It shoots short, longs, and long rifle .22, and it is laser precise with crappy bulk ammo. Now I only have to wait a few years for my boy to be old enough to hold it. American traditions.

Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (Kkt/i)

106 I have been contemplating getting a Mini-14 and have been doing a bit of research (the target model looks promising). However, my son just got an AR-15 and I'm green with jealousy.

Pros/cons of each?

Get the AR. Cheap mags, all kinds. Tons of vendors. Tons of parts. Tons of places to buy parts. Tons of accessories. I see no good reason to get a Mini-14 if I can get an AR.

Posted by: Crashpanic at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (62b6U)

107 I think the Horde may need a "Guns 101" post.

I mean, I'm a virtual novice to shooting (did some with rifles and shotguns in Boy Scouts, and I've shot skeet a couple of times as an adult. Now I've got my Springfield XD9, but I still don't know much "about guns"), and I know there are others here who would like to know who are even further behind the 8-ball than I am.

So some questions:
When learning to shoot a handgun, what would you start with?
When looking for a concealed carry weapon, what do you look for?
What kind of accuracy (still on a handgun) is good?

People here have pointed out the Hi-Point Carbine as a relatively good, cheap option on the carbine market. I think I know the difference in a carbine and a rifle (primarily length, and therefore accuracy over distance, yes?), but if I were looking for a "Hmm, I may need to hunt, I may also need to survive the zombie apocalypse" weapon, would a rifle or a carbine be preferable?

I'm sure there are other questions, too, but that's a good starting list.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (8y9MW)

108 96:

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Dems, if they're smart, won't get near the issue.

I wrote the NRA on this as far as going against Obama. When he was a U of C professor, Obama told John Lott (the famed gun guy) that:
Obama did not believe that an individual had the right to possess a gun.

How was that not ever brought up? It was a direct fucking quote. There are democrats that would vote for hitler if he was going to let them have their guns and the other guy would take it away.

Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (tVTLU)

109 Good22 but its missing the supressor.

Posted by: the lone lemon at November 21, 2012 12:32 PM (xXhWA)

110 I'm an NRA member, but I must say my state group Georgia Carry does an incredible job. Which reminds me, I need to get a turkey gun before too long.

Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 12:32 PM (L8r/r)

111 36
Know what the most embarrassing thing about shooting a .22 (rifle or pistol) is?

Discovering
that out to 50 yards, you end up shooting more accurately with a little
$250 .22 than with your $600 bolt action 7mm Mag deer rifle or .357
revolver.


Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:19 PM (SY2Kh)
True. I have a 22 mag bolt action that gets the same results out to 80+ yards. 22's are underestimated. They're the best for anyone, no matter what age, to learn on. I shake my head when I see a newbie go out and drop serious coin on a hand cannon or elephant gun.

Posted by: tubal at November 21, 2012 12:32 PM (BoE3Z)

112 I am about to puke. hillary is in egypt announcing a cease fire and talking egypt up like they were responsible. she is now officially in bed with the enemy.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 21, 2012 12:32 PM (79ueO)

113 My daughter is 7 but I haven't let her try it yet.
Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 12:29 PM (tVTLU)

That's good. Womyn shouldn't shoot.



/ducks.....runs.....

Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 12:32 PM (fWAjv)

114 Start reloading. If all else fails - you can still make your own.

Look long and hard at Dillon. Best warranty in the business and good stuff.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:32 PM (qBLA2)

115 Wabbit season!!!

Posted by: Daffy at November 21, 2012 12:33 PM (272s8)

116 @90
The AR is all around better. It is modular and easy to work on, has better accuracy, parts are plentiful and cheap, as well as mags. Ergonomics are better, and there are many more variations.

The Ruger has a certain throwback quality to it and can be had a little cheaper. Mags are pretty bad, good ones are expensive.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:33 PM (t06LC)

117 I'm finally learning to appreciate and not fear guns after 38 years on this earth. A few months ago, my husband bought me my first pistol, which I have yet to work up the nerve to fire.

Small background: when I was about ten yrs old, my dad's cousin's son babysat me and pulled a gun on me "for fun". Pulled the trigger a few times while I cowered in fear beside the couch, then put it to his head and pulled a couple more times. Lucky for both of us, it was empty.

Then when I was 22, I caught my best friend's boyfriend beating the shit out of her. When I grabbed her to pull her out of there, he pulled his pistol, put it in my face and told me he was going to kill me. Lucky for me, he didn't.

So between those things, I've had a major gun phobia for many years. As in panic attacks and irrational thoughts. Thanks to a wonderful and patient Texan, I'v slowly introduced myself to guns being ok and safe. I'm still far from being comfortable, but holding an unloaded one no longer triggers a panic attack, so baby steps.

Posted by: DangerGirl - feeling empty at November 21, 2012 12:33 PM (mQmzV)

118 >> I added an 'international' stock to my 1022 and upgraded the trigger, etc.

I've had one of mine since I was a kid. I forget how old I was when I got it ... call it ~10. It's at my dad's house in GA, and I use it on teh bushytails when I visit. It's 100% factory.

I have a new one here in MA, and I put a Clark trigger kit in it right out of the gate. Not sure if it's changes in the manufacturing process over time or just that the old 10/22 was worn in, but the trigger on the new one was noticeably heavier and rougher. It's probably a blame-the-lawyers thing.

Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:33 PM (OZPoa)

119 90
I have been contemplating getting a Mini-14 and have been doing a bit of
research (the target model looks promising). However, my son just got
an AR-15 and I'm green with jealousy.

Pros/cons of each?



You can not go wrong with a mini 14, it is basically a 10/22 in 556. In English it is a M-1 and is pretty damn indestructible. An AR-15 is a little more trouble if you don't keep it clean.

What is the problem? Get both!

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at November 21, 2012 12:34 PM (wR+pz)

120 107
I think the Horde may need a "Guns 101" post.
Allen, please start learning with a 22. Learn to sight, aim, trigger pull that way.

Posted by: tubal at November 21, 2012 12:34 PM (BoE3Z)

121 I have a couple of the take down 10-22's. Very slick and a snap to assemble.

Posted by: dan in michigan at November 21, 2012 12:34 PM (2yD4G)

122 >>>But for hunting and other acts of skill, no firearm can compete with a

simple bow of yew in the hands of one trained to use

Even an 80 lb yew bow in the hands of a dedicated archer, accuracy is difficult to achieve beyond 40 yards.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 12:34 PM (0q2P7)

123 What I particularly like about the Remington 10/22 is that they're like iPods: Everybody makes accessories for 'em.

I currently have two. One I keep bone stock so the SWMBO will use it. The other is my "project gun" and I've already swapped the stock on it to something... a bit weirder. Yep, that's a 10/22 underneath the skin.

Great little guns.

Posted by: Darkmage at November 21, 2012 12:34 PM (F45Zi)

124 Colt Colteer was my first gun to take out solo as a boy....wandered the woods and river behind the house for many an afternoon.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at November 21, 2012 12:35 PM (ITxHU)

125 Though some here are saying they're not accurate, my Ruger 10/22 is extremely accurate. Maybe it's an exception to the rule.

Posted by: Mr_Write at November 21, 2012 12:35 PM (CLkAH)

126 The mini14 will get the job done but go with the AR15.



an AR is definately a step up and are endlessly modifiable





Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (2CiZb)
With the research I'd been doing, I'd heard there were issues with the earlier models of the Mini (and someone upthread mentioned accuracy issues). My son went with the Bushmaster. I've read some good things about it. What's the moron thought? Are there other manufacturers that I should consider?

Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at November 21, 2012 12:35 PM (ZdRSq)

127 Might I also recommend a righteous self defense shooting link as a semi-regular feature of the thread.

And what thread like this is complete without a hickok45 video appropriate for the season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPL8M4aWHF8

Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 12:35 PM (Kkt/i)

128 @98
From a stripped lower building an AR is incredibly easy. I can do one in about 10 minutes now. Most of my ARs are homerolled.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:35 PM (t06LC)

129 Grr... apparently the little HTML linking widget lies. LIES!

My weird-ass 10/22 can be found here:
http://home.comcast.net/~sirlagsalot/TR/bunting_done.jpg

Posted by: Darkmage at November 21, 2012 12:36 PM (F45Zi)

130 Dillion is good stuff, but for starting reloaders, usually out of their price range. Lee presses are economical, though depending on the model you buy, they might be temperamental. The lee turret press or the pro-1000 are good buys, reliable and easy to learn on. The dies and other associated accouterments are cheaper as well.

Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 12:36 PM (OvRHg)

131 >>>my dad's cousin's son babysat me and pulled a gun on me "for fun".
Pulled the trigger a few times while I cowered in fear beside the couch,
then put it to his head and pulled a couple more times. Lucky for both
of us, it was empty.

People would have been beat to a pulp in my family for something like that.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 12:36 PM (0q2P7)

132 RWC:

hahaha. I know, my wife is against guns, she made me buy a gun safe, but the problem for her is that now I have a place to hold a lot more guns so I'm working on filling it up!!!

We hopefully are moving soon, so I can set up some targets and maybe let her try it out.

Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 12:36 PM (tVTLU)

133 10/22s are popular because, like a small block chevy, there are piles and piles of aftermarket goodies.

Why are there piles and piles of aftermarket goodies?

because they are popular....

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:36 PM (qBLA2)

134 @107
So some questions:
When learning to shoot a handgun, what would you start with?

A .22. The ruger 22/45 is very popular as a trainer pistol. Take some instruction, too.

When looking for a concealed carry weapon, what do you look for?
Something that fits your hand, that you can manipulate easily, and that won't make you NEVER WANT TO PRACTICE (I'm looking at you, .357 snubbie). The smaller the gun, the more painful it is to shoot, but if you live in someplace like florida or texas it's a crime to have someone see your gun "print" through your clothing.

What kind of accuracy (still on a handgun) is good?
Minute of badguy at 7 yards.

Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 12:36 PM (HDCAA)

135 Anyone have an ioinion on the Chiappa Rhino? I am terribly fascinated by the 6" barrel version, but opinions vary wildly on its effectiveness. I hobbyshoot an S/W. 500 so recoil is irrelevant, just wondering about accuracy and whe5her the low muzzle rise is really all its made out to be.

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at November 21, 2012 12:37 PM (nXb6C)

136 Here are the silencers I currently own:

Surefire 556k - this is a 5.56mm short can that I use on my AR15s - usually my 11.5" barrel. Rifle cans are not quiet and you must wear hearing protection. They do knock the blast way down, especially on the shorter barrels and they are quite pleasant on a 16" or longer barrel.

SWR Trident 9 - This is a 9mm can and I use it almost exclusively on my MP5. It's great with subsonic 9mm and partnered with the MP5 makes a really great package. Eventually, I will pick up a threaded barrel for my Glock 17.

Gemteck Outback II - This is a .22 can and gets the most use out of all my silencers. I use it on a Beretta 87 pistol that I had threaded and my S&W M&P 15-22 rifle. This sucker is scary quiet. You hear the hammer hit and then the bullet smack into the dirt. That's it. If you want to impress your friends, start here. It's "Hollywood Quiet."

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 12:37 PM (pLTLS)

137 Hey Andy,
Great new weekly feature. No shit, when Ace mentioned the addition yesterday my first thought was recommending that all morons should pick up a 10/22 (or a couple). Easy to maintain and repair, great (and worthwhile) aftermarket additions, and as with all .22 rimfires, quiet, accurate, cheap, and surprisingly effective.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 12:37 PM (C0alm)

138 Don't look at a Glock 40 if you're a beginner.

Only highly skilled DEA agents can handle them.

Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 12:37 PM (fWAjv)

139
What kind of accuracy (still on a handgun) is good? Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (8y9MW)


20 feet.

Posted by: the lone lemon at November 21, 2012 12:37 PM (xXhWA)

140 http://tinyurl.com/auc82vw (Cabelas)

Useful for scaring liberals out of their wits (just that easy) and potential robbers (provided they're not on drugs).

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at November 21, 2012 12:37 PM (rzTDZ)

141 @126
Colt. I can get one at Walmart for near the same price as the Bushy, and its all mil-spec where the Bushy isn't. The Colt 6920 is as close to an issued M4 as a civvy can get. All parts HP/MPI inspected. I believe Bushmaster does batch testing.
If price is no object, Noveske, Larue, Knights Armament in no particular order.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:38 PM (t06LC)

142 To put to rest the reloader question - look at what high volume competitive shooters use.

You won't find a lee loader in the bunch.

I have between 80-100k rounds through my 550 and 650 and only minor parts issues - all of which were sent to me free.

Try that with Lee.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:38 PM (qBLA2)

143 There are several outfits out there that sell jigs to make building out an 80% lower rather easy. AR15Plus has a really good one.

Posted by: AZ Hi Desert at November 21, 2012 12:38 PM (8cJXl)

144 Now feeding a rifle under unfriendly, rent-seeking assholes is another issue altogether.
rons in general:
Do I start reloading or just bulk-buy more 5.56? That's my question.


Start reloading. Twice the accuracy at half the price. Plus it's a valuable learning experience.

You won't save any money, but only because you'll end up shooting a lot more.

You don't need an expensive setup to start with if you just want to give it a try. I loaded thousands of rounds through my cheap Lee single stage press.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:38 PM (SY2Kh)

145 Minute of badguy at 7 yards.

Huh? I'm sure that makes sense to people who aren't novices.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:39 PM (8y9MW)

146 Yay for posting on a mobile phone...

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at November 21, 2012 12:40 PM (nXb6C)

147 Huh? I'm sure that makes sense to people who aren't novices.


Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:39 PM (8y9MW)

It's a riff on minute of angle.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 12:40 PM (GRvW4)

148 65
Its worth keeping in mind, that while Wayne LaPierre likes to pretend he
owns the Fast and Furious narrative - that he an the NRA BOD had to be
dragged kicking and screaming into the fight.

And, keep in mind Larry Craig - who STILL sits on the BOD.


Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (qBLA2)

That, and Mike V. and David C., of whom both pushed the story online and in Congress for about a year prior to the NRA stepping in, are pretty much both ostracized by the NRA, while the NRA has yet to give proper credit (that I have seen at least). I am a member, but I am not happy about that one.

Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 12:40 PM (Kkt/i)

149 Bolts and barrels are the only thing mag particled in a colt.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:40 PM (qBLA2)

150 Well done, morons. Well done.

I love the smell of Hoppe's No. 9 in the morning.

This is gonna be fun.

Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:40 PM (OZPoa)

151 Doesn't a "Longbow"also come in a long-box?

Posted by: Paladin at November 21, 2012 12:41 PM (lP8dE)

152 For reloaders I used to have a Lyman Turret Press and loved it, But the components started rocketing up in price so I got rid of it and started buying factory ammo from Wal-Mart.


The thing I really miss though is the accuracy you can get from hand loads. It is really better than any factory.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 12:41 PM (YdQQY)

153 Do I start reloading or just bulk-buy more 5.56?

Yes.

Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 12:41 PM (L8r/r)

154 Ughhhh
Some friends and me and the better half are going to the range this afternoon to try out the sw 500
I hear that if your finger is sticking out foward that it can be removed by the back blast
Getting it all on video of course since the wife is 5'0" and weighs a buck

Posted by: Navycopjoe (team LIB) at November 21, 2012 12:41 PM (AdHyU)

155 I love the smell of Hoppe's No. 9 in the morning.

This is gonna be fun.


Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:40 PM (OZPoa)

Once told my ex that if she used it for perfume, she'd never get my hands off her.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 12:41 PM (GRvW4)

156 flounder - the latest American Rifleman has a puff piece about what part the NRA played in the FF issue.

Mike V and David C were never mentioned.

Without them - this would never have come to light.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:42 PM (qBLA2)

157 @145

Accuracy is measured in Minutes of angle (MOA). For example, if a rifle has the accuracy potential of 1 MOA, shots all impact within 1'' of one another at 100 yards, 2'' at 200 yards and so on. Minute of bad guy is kinda a joke for "good enough for government work"

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:42 PM (t06LC)

158 Anybody here have one of the new-manufacture Henry lever-action rifles? In particular, one with the heavy octagonal barrel? Am intrigued by the style, but am curious about the things that matter -- reliability, accuracy, etc.

Posted by: Stu-22 at November 21, 2012 12:42 PM (k4bdL)

159 Hard to argue with the 10/22 as a great beginner rifle, I'd also recommend digging around the used gun racks at various stores in search of the Remington 513-T Matchmaster (because I prefer bolt-guns). Another great rifle to teach a young shooter on. Also because its a bolt-action it teaches them the muscle memory for follow up shots when in the field hunting (unless of course you're hunting with an MSR or other autoloader).

Finally - Kansas' modern firearms deer season opens in one week - which may be the most important gun news of the month for me.

Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 12:42 PM (mfWu+)

160 Are there other manufacturers that I should consider?

Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at November 21, 2012 12:35 PM (ZdRSq)


buy an AR first, then go back abd buy the Mini14, I'd say

there are tons of good AR manufactures
Armalite
DPMS
Bushmaster
Rock River
Stag arms

are just a few off the top of my head

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 12:42 PM (2CiZb)

161 @149
I was pretty sure the FCG was as well.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:43 PM (t06LC)

162 AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (8y9MW)

Hey Allen- met at the moron meetup you put together-remember? We can't be too far apart (I forgot where you said you live). I have a bit of a "collection", sometime we can get together and you can try before you buy.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 12:43 PM (C0alm)

163 >>>Now feeding a rifle under unfriendly, rent-seeking assholes is another issue altogether.
rons in general:
Do I start reloading or just bulk-buy more 5.56? That's my question.

Meh 5.56 doesn't have the range performance (beyond 300yds) to warrant spending your time making rounds for it. You will find loading a box of shells will take a couple hours for only some very modest savings. A low performance, easily obtainable, high volume round like the 5.56? I wouldn't recommend reloading it to a beginner. If you love reloading yes. Otherwise, it probably, in practical terms won't be worth your time.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 12:43 PM (0q2P7)

164
I'm having trouble hitting the target with my SigP220 .45. Shots are way low. Like 8-12 inches at 25 yards.
I started on a Glock 9mm and can hit the spot with it, but with the .45 I just suck. I'd love to blame the gun or sights, but I know that would be a mistake.
Has anybody had trouble with accuracy when moving from 9mm to .45ACP? Or has anybody ever heardof factory Sig's needing sight adjustment or sight replacement?
I only share this personal shortcoming with the hoarde because I know you all are so kind.

Posted by: California Red at November 21, 2012 12:43 PM (icSBv)

165 @107

Hey, That's a lot of questions for a guy that doesn't have a blog.

Going to lunch BBL to try and start answering those question.

Most of them are pretty easy. Start pistol shooting with a 22 to get use to a gun. Accuracy with pistols depends on barrel length and cal. Larger cal are harder to aim. Concealed carry gun depends on you and how you are going to carry. A pocket gun Seacamp 380 is small, but you won't hit anything unless you are less that three feet from them. You have a hard time carrying a larger pistol concealed. SW 38 Police Special is a good backup, only 5 shots. Again, if you are carrying, you should not pull out your weapon unless you plan to kill the fucker. Glocks are very popular and come in every cal. 40 is big enough to kill the shit out of anyone. Cops carry them because they don't fuck up and don't have a safety, so you just pull it out and shoot. The safety is on the trigger.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at November 21, 2012 12:43 PM (wR+pz)

166 there are tons of good AR manufactures

Armalite

DPMS

Bushmaster

Rock River

Stag arms



are just a few off the top of my head



Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 12:42 PM (2CiZb)


Before it fell out of my truck, I had a SandW MP15-T... Smith is making great AR's. Of course, YMMV.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 12:44 PM (GRvW4)

167 0302, don't start with a progressive press. Too complex. Start simple, where you can keep track of everything by doing one at a time. Rock Chucker or Lee Classic.

Posted by: Skookumchuk at November 21, 2012 12:45 PM (0Db2g)

168 Huh? I'm sure that makes sense to people who aren't novices.

Minute of angle = 1/60th of 1 degree = 1 inch at 100 meters.

An accurate rifle might be said to shoot 1 MOA, or one inch groups at 100 yards.

"Minute of deer" or "Minute of bad guy" is just a snarky way of saying "good enough to hit your target".

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:45 PM (SY2Kh)

169 Shouldn't the Gun of the Week for the week of November 22 be a Mannlicher-Carcano?

Posted by: tsj017 at November 21, 2012 12:45 PM (4YUWF)

170 All the rifle talk...

My Dad gave me his S&W 17-3 aka the K22 Masterpiece.

I go it to the range this week and learned that I have a long way to go to get as accurate as this pistol is.

It is absolutely the most accurate handgun I have ever fired (and cheap to shoot!). If you enjoy shooting, you cannot go wrong with one of these.

Posted by: sdavis at November 21, 2012 12:45 PM (njVMI)

171 @163

Unless you have a progressive and want to do volume... but if you do, you already know that.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:45 PM (t06LC)

172 Guns are obsolete in the new collective utopia. Hussein the Messiah will keep us safe from all harm.

Posted by: Kool-Aid is Good at November 21, 2012 12:46 PM (Kflw4)

173 Hey Allen- met at the moron meetup you put together-remember? We can't
be too far apart (I forgot where you said you live). I have a bit of a
"collection", sometime we can get together and you can try before you
buy.


I do, but I'm terrible with names (and putting names to faces).

That would be pretty cool.

Actually, I and a guy I go to church with are trying to put together a shooting outing. Some shotguns, some clay pigeons, and several hours of fun.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:46 PM (8y9MW)

174 I want a life membership in the NRA but I'm afraid they will inundate me with spam, digital and physical. That's the only thing that has stopped me in the past from buying a life membership. I was ready to pay full price. I want to contribute but I don't want them to follow me around for the rest of my life wasting money mailing me shit.

Posted by: Daryl Herbert at November 21, 2012 12:46 PM (r1Snu)

175 @166

You forgot Colt.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at November 21, 2012 12:47 PM (wR+pz)

176 As for reloading 5.56 if it is like reloading the old .223, which I would assume it would be, they were a pain in the ass to reload. The bullets and casings are so small it is hard to get up rhythm without pinching your fingers in the press.


If you can get military surplus cheap do that.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 12:47 PM (YdQQY)

177 174. Actually, they aren't too bad about that. You might get a mailer or two per year, but that's about it.

Posted by: Skookumchuk at November 21, 2012 12:47 PM (0Db2g)

178 @166
My first AR was a SW MP15T. Good rifle.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:48 PM (t06LC)

179 Just remember , this advice when you use a handgun, keeping your casings can be very important.

Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 12:48 PM (Q8Pu5)

180 I was going to look into a 10/22... I had a chance to buy an enfield #4 SMLE in .22 and I regret not doing so.

Posted by: liquidflorian at November 21, 2012 12:48 PM (Kx/oz)

181 164. Hmmm
I've shot my wife's p226 and her Kimber and I seem to get a tighter group with the .45
I think I would blame the sights

Actually I'm a total glock h8r so I would blame the glock

Posted by: Navycopjoe (team LIB) at November 21, 2012 12:48 PM (jpPSm)

182 OT: Ace revealed?

http://is.gd/ZsM0nM

Posted by: George Orwell what knows þr0n is your constitutionally guaranteed entitlement at November 21, 2012 12:48 PM (Lxw+T)

183
The 10/22 was the first rifle i ever owned,a present on my 13th birthday.

Posted by: kj at November 21, 2012 12:49 PM (AW9md)

184 Just goes and goes. Ooops, I mean: just went and went.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 12:49 PM (GRvW4)

185 If you can find 'em the Ruger M7722 is a nice bolt action .22 . Pricey compared to the 1022 but really nice and very accurate . They make a varmint version with a 24 inch stainless barrel available in long rifle , 22 magnum and 22 Hornet .
Even harder to find , but the best .22 made in the last 100 yrs. imho is the old 40X Remington target rifle . Got to shoot one of those quite a bit in High school . Man , what a tack driver .

Posted by: awkward davies at November 21, 2012 12:49 PM (USjX1)

186 Bethesda, MD -“According to confidential information,” he continued, “forces linked with the administration suggest the government classify semiautomatic firearms and multiple capacity ammunition feeding devices as Title 2 National Firearms Act items under the Gun Control Act of 1968.

source: ammoland.com

Posted by: elections have consequences at November 21, 2012 12:49 PM (Kflw4)

187 >> My Dad gave me his SW 17-3 aka the K22 Masterpiece.

It's well-named, isn't it?

My dad had one of those when I was a kid (and I presume he still has it). What a great shooting revolver.

Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:50 PM (OZPoa)

188 Thanks! I really appreciate all the advice.

As for handguns, some ranges will have "loaner" guns for you to try. That's how I found my first handgun. Everyone had been telling me that I needed to get the Lady SW (hammerless and safer for purse carry). I hated it. I'm still not a fan of the SW.

When I first tried the Walther PPK/S (.380), I loved it. It fit my hand perfectly and I was fairly accurate with it from the start. It was my first handgun purchase. A few months later, with regular trips to the range, I had the opportunity to shoot a SIG Sauer .45. While I absolutely loved it, it was too much gun for me. I was going to the range on my lunch break and was wearing work clothes (suit/heels). With every shot, I was scooted back about a quarter-inch. I tried the 9mm P226 and that became my second handgun. The P228 is also awesome.

The 9mm derringer is not a gun you want to spend a lot of time at the range with. The kick of a 9mm round leaving a little, tiny gun gets old after just a few shots. Nice in an emergency but not great for plinking.

My most recent purchase was a 22 revolver. So much fun and I'm getting pretty accurate with it. Only two issues with it: no swing-out cylinder and it's mag instead of LR. I'm going to try to get the LR cylinder but hate having to send my gun to the manufacturer. waah. Okay. Done whining.

Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at November 21, 2012 12:50 PM (ZdRSq)

189 For the newbies - if you are going to jump into reloading, get some help and good advice. Get a couple of up to date manuals from different sources.

PAY ATTENTION!

When it says to back off 10% - do it.

Blown up guns are no fun. Watching grip panels get blown off and magazines blown out of the bottom of 1911s is exciting. IF its not in your hand. Having a squib lodge a bullet or wad in a barrel and then followed up with a live one can be very destructive.

Precision Shooting has some very, very good manuals on rifle reloading.

Any of the component manufacturers for handguns. Sierra, Hornady, Hodgden, etc.

Every gun barrel is different for a variety of reasons and almost all will exhibit different pressure signals.

NEVER USE any IPSC loads you come across in a standard handgun. Many of these are designed for fully supported chambers and will be devastating in a standard non supported barrel.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:50 PM (qBLA2)

190 How about a machine-gun jetpack?

http://what-if.xkcd.com/

Posted by: sdavis at November 21, 2012 12:51 PM (njVMI)

191 Life member of NRA, SAF, yearly member of my state org (NYSRPA). The guys over at Calguns are brilliant, working behind the lines and seriously punking groups like LCAV.


Posted by: Ron Jeremy's fading libido at November 21, 2012 12:51 PM (3niml)

192 Also, Leahy dropped his 'no warrant needed' bill.
Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 12:30 PM (fWAjv)


Sure. As soon as the details were published.

F*ckin sonsabitches.......

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 12:51 PM (sGWH5)

193 @180
Was it a Ishapore? I saw one of those once, but it was pretty beat up. They had some in .410 also

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:51 PM (t06LC)

194 That's it. After the new year, Moron Meetup at the Eagle Gun Range in Lewisville.

http://www.eaglegunrangetx.com/

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:51 PM (8y9MW)

195 Beware the NRA. If you join, be sure to open every piece of mail you get from them (there will be a lot). They've started an OPT-OUT marketing scheme so that if you don't opt out, they start sending you stuff like DVD's at around $30 a pop. You can return the dvd's, but YOU have to pay the return postage (about $3.00).

Posted by: OCBill at November 21, 2012 12:51 PM (rFipM)

196 Stu-22. If you like the lever action Henrys, consider a Marlin 39A. A bit pricey, but a great quality rifle that holds its value. Love me some lever guns.

Posted by: fire captain at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (L8Qa7)

197
I built my own deer rifle from scratch. by that I mean I chose a proven design and modified it to suit my needs. Did the pressure and thrust calculations. Chose my cartridge as the 30-40 Krag. I drew all the parts up in Cadd and made working prints with tolerances.Bought a .308" barrel blank, cut it to length, contour turned it, threaded it, cut extractor/ejector groove. Chambered it , built custom scope mounts for it and mounted a classic Weaver scope made in the 70's on it. Machined the receiver from hardened and tempered 4140 alloy steel. Made the action partsfrom O-1 tool steelon my lathe, mill, and some formed by hand with files and other tools. Austempered the action parts in my refurbished antique forge. I cut an ozark walnut from my Uncles land, dragged it out of the woods, had a slab sawed with good figure. I dried the blank for 2 years. Designed, cut, hand carved the stock and fitted it to the rifle bbl/action. Taught myself to checker and checkered the stock myself. Finished the stock in tru-oil, hand rubbed 15 coats. I built a boiling tank to fit the rifle on my kitchen stove and used it and a ton of elbow grease to slow rust blue the rifle to a deep black. The falling block was machined from a Chrome-vanadium shank from a commercial CNC boring bar. I formed springs from stock length springs. Built more than 10 special tools to do all the machining.
Completed rifle ready to shoot weight just over 5 pounds with sling and scope. Fired over 100 times with maximum hand loads. No problems. It holds 1.5" groups at 100 yards with my handloads and a 4X scope. 5 deer have fallen to it so far with many in it's future. Only took me an estimated 850 hours. (don't tell me I can't finish a project).

Posted by: maddogg at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (OlN4e)

198 Glocks are for folks who don't intend to master the craft. The 1911 is a work of art meant to be used by those willing to pursue mastery.
Glocks make moresense for mst people.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (C0alm)

199 I don't like this gun thread.

If you want to talk fishing, I guess that'd be ok.

Posted by: DaveA (Just being a Moron) at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (MOWP1)

200 I had a good idea for a video game that I think would sell well, based on the "Deer Hunter" video game engine that many hunting aficionados have taken to heart. Because of that I think it would be fairly easy to develop, since one would just have to update the software and change the graphics used, but not rewrite the whole game. Instead of a forest, the landscape will be a kind of generic middle eastern urban landscape, and instead of deer you will be tracking down the scroungy 2 legged kind, complete with checkered scarfs. Oh, and instead of a hunter you'll be an IDF soldier.

The name of the game will be "Pali Hunter". There should also be some special challenges, for example if you shoot a child then you lose 50 points, but if you see the fuse on his vest and you shoot him because you realize he is really a disguised suicide bomber, then you earn 50 points. You know you've made the right choice when you get treated to the massive secondary explosion when his vest goes off.

So, I think this has got some real good possibilities!!!

Posted by: Tom Servo at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (ekln7)

201 I teach youth shooting sports, for liability reasons we start at 8. For rifles, we start .177 air rifles - it gives you a good opportunity to reinforce safety and process before moving on to rimfire; my teams spend 90% of their practice time on air. Ruger, Mossberg and Marlin all have very good 10/.22 that will serve youth shooters quite well, but its important that the firarm fits the shooter.... to that end, the Marlin can be a better choice since it has a smaller length of pull and a simpler release mechanism for the clip. The Ruger and Mossberg are also excellent, but require a little more practice to handle with ease. Just a note, don't underestimate air rifles - our competition rifles fire at 2500 psi.

Posted by: 2nd Amendment Mother at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (HKzrW)

202 @41

Yeah, a bit. In the past 10 years I've owned three full size Uzi subguns, a Micro Uzi, a Fleming HK sear, an FNC, an AR15 RDIAS, two M16s, a couple AR15 SBRs, a Tromix Saiga 12 SBS, a short Remngton 870 and enough suppressors that I'd have to look at my records to make sure I remembered them all. Most of the machine guns have ben sold in trading up to better ones. 2013 will probably just be building up a 10/22 clone receiver into an SBRed pocket rifle, and a Gemtech G5-22 for the muzzle. Everything else I want (more transferable machine guns) is unfortunately outside my budget.

Posted by: ARL at November 21, 2012 12:53 PM (gG97F)

203 Glocks are for folks who don't intend to master the craft. The 1911 is a
work of art meant to be used by those willing to pursue mastery.

Glocks make moresense for mst people.

Tactical tupperware.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:53 PM (qBLA2)

204 @186
I think the NFA pretty much spells out what is included. I think a revision that major would take an amendment through congress.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:53 PM (t06LC)

205
If you want to talk fishing, I guess that'd be ok. Posted by: DaveA (Just being a Moron) at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (MOWP1)


22s are the best fishing rifle.

Posted by: the lone lemon at November 21, 2012 12:54 PM (xXhWA)

206 Shouldn't the Gun of the Week for the week of November 22 be a Mannlicher-Carcano?


Posted by: tsj017 at November 21, 2012 12:45 PM (4YUWF)

----
I see wut you did thar......

Posted by: Zombie JFK at November 21, 2012 12:54 PM (nELVU)

207 Life member of the Texas State Rifle Association.

Posted by: rickb223 Let It Burn at November 21, 2012 12:54 PM (GFM2b)

208 AllenG, what's the name of that range on Northwest Hwy. at 114?

We went there for a meetup a couple of years ago.

Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:54 PM (OZPoa)

209
"Yeah but the Remington Nylon 66 rules, just try to find one, if you got em hold em..."

I have a 1959 - Mohawkbrown in very good condition. Make me an offer.

Daddy needs a new AR.

Posted by: Jaws at November 21, 2012 12:54 PM (4I3Uo)

210 Shouldn't the Gun of the Week for the week of November 22 be a Mannlicher-Carcano?


That gun is for patsies.

Posted by: L. Oswald at November 21, 2012 12:55 PM (QKKT0)

211 200.00?

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:55 PM (qBLA2)

212 A good place to start is "The ABC's of Reloading" by Bill Chevalier. Easy to follow and written for the beginner. Then, buy several reloading manuals - Speer, Hornady, Nosler. The more data you have on safe loadings, the better.

Posted by: Skookumchuk at November 21, 2012 12:56 PM (0Db2g)

213 AllenG, what's the name of that range on Northwest Hwy. at 114?

Not sure, I'd have to look.

For the little solo shooting I've done, I've gone to the Great Southwest Gun Club (corner of Great Southwest and Main in Grand Prairie). It's close to me and it's cheap.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:56 PM (8y9MW)

214 My 13-year-old is getting an M&P 15/22 for Xmas... it's the new 10/22 :-)
Of course, he already shoots all my handguns and my FS2000 5.56. But the 15/22 will be a lot cheaper to feed...

15/22 will get a suppressor next year... big 2nd amendment fun.

Posted by: Noncentsical at November 21, 2012 12:56 PM (Na7G9)

215 Looking for used guns?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/


http://www.gunbroker.com/



Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 12:57 PM (YdQQY)

216 When my daughter was about 3, she wanted to tromp around with me in the snow to shoot crows. Cool. I took my 870 pump, but brought my tiny single shot M-6 Scout in 22lr/.410. We didn't call in any crows, but she wanted to shoot the .22, which consisted of me kneeling in the snow next to her, and holding the weight of the gun while she more or less got the gun into position and pulled the trigger. She did that a few times, till we ran out of ammo.
Then she wanted to shoot the 870.
Long story short: like an old warner brothers cartoon, when the 870 went off she flew back through the air and landed on her butt in the snow while I was still holding the shotgun. Good times, good times. She was surprised, but when I started laughing she did too, and then she wanted to do it again. (No, once was enough) It doesn't seemed to have emotionally scarred her. She's 13 and still asks me to tell the story. She also still likes to shoot.

Posted by: Annonymous, for Child Protective Services Reasons at November 21, 2012 12:57 PM (gWLRb)

217 Oh, and thank you, Andy, for the thread!

Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at November 21, 2012 12:57 PM (ZdRSq)

218 AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:46 PM (8y9MW)
I was the one wearing the cap (you know, the redneck) and my wife accompanied me. I'm on the north side (Prosper). I'm a shotgunner as well, shoot clays with some frequency, but if you want to try out some firearms meant for "business", I've got a few of those as well.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 12:57 PM (C0alm)

219 So some questions:When learning to shoot a handgun, what would you start with?When looking for a concealed carry weapon, what do you look for?What kind of accuracy (still on a handgun) is good?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (8y9MW)

1. I taught my children and my girlfriend to shoot handguns by starting them out with the finest target pistol I own, a SW K38 Target Masterpiece .38 Spl revolver. For one thing, the K38 Target Masterpiece is amazingly accurate; thus, I can analyze their shot patterns on the target and know it's what they're doing right or wrong and not any idiosyncracies of the weapon. The stress for beginners is on fundamentals: stance(s), hold, trigger press. Shoot pistols with both eyes open.Once you've mastered fundamentals, practice shooting one-handed. Practice shooting with your weak hand. Practice fast presentation. Practice reloading.Buy snap caps and practice your grip and trigger press at home.

2. Insofar as carry pieces are concerned, it depends on your body type, your personal and professional milieu, and your affinity for the weapon. I have a carry license and carry a commie surplus 9x18 mm Makarov semi-automatic pistol. I'm a short guy with a somewhat slender build, so I need a compact weapon with a slim profile so it doesn't 'print' too much when I'm wearing casual clothing. I like the Makarov too because it feels right in my hand, points well, packs a reasonable punch, and is absolutely reliable. Bigger men (and women) can more easily concealbigger guns. I know some guys swear by their 1911 .45 ACPs. I like them, too, but carrying it around wouldn't work for me. And don't worry overmuch about physical comfort in carrying the thing. 'It isn't supposed to be comfortable. It's supposed to be comforting.'

3. Accuracy? If you can hit center mass of a silhouette target at 5-7 yards consistently, that's accurate enough, in my view. Your goal is not bullseye accuracy. Your goal is relatively tight groups in vital areas of the human body at close range. Further, in most self-defense situations, proper stance goes out the window. He who hits first usually wins.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 12:57 PM (vtiE6)

220 You can usually buy ammo for about the same price as reloading when you're talking about the extremely common rounds (.30-06, .270, 9mm, etc...)

Reloading becomes very economical when you get into lower demand rounds (weatherby, win-mags, assorted European rounds).

Reloading is also handy when you're picky about the bullets for your hunting needs (e.g. solids, roundnoses, spitzers, flat-base vs boattails, those types of factors). Reloading can ensure you can match the bullet to the game and expected hunting conditions (plains, mountains, brush).

I would add that the idea that you can get better velocity out of reloading is probably less and less true as more and more companies ramp up the velocities of their factory ammo using proprietary powders in order to meet consumer demand. .

Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 12:57 PM (mfWu+)

221 @214

How do you like that FS2000? I've been thinking about picking one up. Mostly because it kinda looks like the gun off Halo.

Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 12:58 PM (t06LC)

222 >> Not sure, I'd have to look.

I could kick myself, because when I lived there I worked at Macarthur/114 and never knew the range was there. I could just about have seen it from my office window.

Many missed long lunch opportunities. Oh, well.

Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:58 PM (OZPoa)

223 189 For the newbies - if you are going to jump into reloading, get some help and good advice. Get a couple of up to date manuals from different sources.

PAY ATTENTION!

When it says to back off 10% - do it.

Blown up guns are no fun. Watching grip panels get blown off and magazines blown out of the bottom of 1911s is exciting. IF its not in your hand. Having a squib lodge a bullet or wad in a barrel and then followed up with a live one can be very destructive.

Precision Shooting has some very, very good manuals on rifle reloading.

Any of the component manufacturers for handguns. Sierra, Hornady, Hodgden, etc.

Every gun barrel is different for a variety of reasons and almost all will exhibit different pressure signals.

NEVER USE any IPSC loads you come across in a standard handgun. Many of these are designed for fully supported chambers and will be devastating in a standard non supported barrel.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:50 PM (qBLA2)



Good dope. This cannot be stressed enough. A good friend and his wife got into hobby reloading and decided it would be somewhat lucrative to production reload .38/.357/.44/.45. and sell at gun shows. (This was in the late '80s/early 90s)

It was. Very lucrative.

Until a mistake overloaded some rounds. They were very lucky that all they had to replace was a couple of pistols.

They quit.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 12:58 PM (sGWH5)

224 I recommend the Eagle Gun Range because they do parties.

Yes. Really.
http://bit.ly/UJrd3V

Okay, that specifically says kids' birthday parties, but I'm pretty sure we could get a room to hang out in. I might even be able to convince the wife to send cheesecake.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:58 PM (8y9MW)

225 You don't need an expensive setup to start with if
you just want to give it a try. I loaded thousands of rounds through my
cheap Lee single stage press.


Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:38 PM (SY2Kh)

Or even more cheaply with the Lee hand press. Thousands through that as well.

Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 12:58 PM (Kkt/i)

226 Speaking of America's first family, my Obama/Kennedy loving wife just read a book concerning JFK's affair with some intern and, at this late date, has decided that JFK was a dirtbag. So there is hope. Another fifty or sixty years and maybe a substantial portion of the leftards will see these people for who they are.

Posted by: WalrusRex at November 21, 2012 12:59 PM (Hx5uv)

227 Incidentally, for the best gun reviews ever, just go here: http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45

I've met the guy a few times, and he's exactly like that in real life (I used to work in a Nashville gun store). And about 6'7". Notice the height of the table he uses relative to the cameraman.

Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 01:01 PM (L8r/r)

228 Get a 22-250 they can be reloaded by experienced shooters by site to the neck with certain powders. And the ballistics are all good from small varmints to game.

Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 01:01 PM (Q8Pu5)

229 When my daughter was about 3, she wanted to tromp around with me in the snow to shoot crows.


Hope you had "permission" from the feds. Damn crows fall under the migratory bird act. They will allow you to shoot them if you ask them and tell them they are a "nuisance" to your "farm", but you have to ask first.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:01 PM (YdQQY)

230 You don't need an expensive setup to start with if

you just want to give it a try. I loaded thousands of rounds through my

cheap Lee single stage press.




Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:38 PM (SY2Kh)

Or even more cheaply with the Lee hand press. Thousands through that as well.


Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 12:58 PM (Kkt/i)

-----
I love my Lee classic turret. Started with the single stage, but wanted higher production for the pistolas. One fine press and it wont break the bank.

Posted by: fixerupper at November 21, 2012 01:02 PM (nELVU)

231 I like the FN Model 1910. Mine caused 16 million deaths and it hardly has a scratch on it.

Posted by: Gavrilo Princip at November 21, 2012 01:02 PM (QKKT0)

232 The Ruger 10/22 was the one I was going to order from Dicks. I want to stay with a 22 since I already have a Ruger 22 target pistol. My son bitches at me (his poor old mom) for not going with more fire power, but I keep telling him that when I am in need of shooting an intruder with whatever gun I have at the moment, I will be unloading the entire clip, so it doesn't really matter what's in said clip.

Posted by: Jaimo at November 21, 2012 01:02 PM (9U1OG)

233 Why Reload?

Reasons to reload.
1. Cost savings.
Re-using your brass (an impossibility for military brass with crimped primers BTW for you beginners) will save you some money in the long run. The more uncommon your case is the more you will save.

2. Better accuracy. You can, with a lot of patience, experimentation, and time on the range, match your projectile, rifle, and load, to achieve bullet departure at resonance of the barrel allowing you to shoot some very very tight groups with almost any rifle.

3. You don't like the factory available projectiles. This is almost always the reason I reload a round. A number of very good projectiles exist in all sorts of different weights, not all of which will be commonly (or cheaply) available for your round. I am a big fan of Nosler, for instance and end up hand loading and reloading a number of rounds with CT Silvertips, or Accubonds. The projectile is what gets the work done at the end of the day. It's selection is very important.

Reasons not to reload.
1. Time time time. It takes a lot of time to reload.
2. Lack of interest. It is an exercise in precision. If you don't want to do it and get sloppy, you'll ruin your favorite weapon and perhaps injure yourself.
3. Lack of skill. While not really difficult, you can't be afraid of using a caliper, or measuring out weights less than one kernel of corn.
3. Space you don't have it. You'll need it. A press needs to be mounted to a sturdy table such as a work shop table. You will need to be more or less uninterrupted while you are loading.
4. Initial investment. There are a number of things you need to buy to be a hand loader, you will feel the pinch in your pocket and it will take a while (Unless you shoot something exotic) before you make back your initial investment.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 01:02 PM (0q2P7)

234
Okay, that specifically says kids' birthday parties

Here in California if you tried having your kids birthday party at a gun range they probably throw you in jail and try taking the kids away from you

Posted by: kj at November 21, 2012 01:03 PM (AW9md)

235 226 my Obama/Kennedy loving wife just read a book concerning JFK's affair with some intern and, at this late date, has decided that JFK was a dirtbag. So there is hope. Posted by: WalrusRex at November 21, 2012 12:59 PM (Hx5uv)If she's still thinking in terms of who's a dirtbag and who's not while we hurl toward collectivist utopia I'm afraid the point is beyond her.

Posted by: the lone lemon at November 21, 2012 01:03 PM (xXhWA)

236 Okay, that specifically says kids' birthday parties,
but I'm pretty sure we could get a room to hang out in. I might even be
able to convince the wife to send cheesecake.


Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:58 PM (8y9MW)


Huh. Only a 17 and a half hour drive for me. I think I can totally make it.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 21, 2012 01:03 PM (da5Wo)

237 Bought a 12 ga. double-barreled coach gun last weekend. I've always admired the intimidation factor in those guns. Plus, it just looks good.

A good home-defense weapon.

Posted by: Soona at November 21, 2012 01:03 PM (78QmA)

238 You can usually buy ammo for about the same price as reloading when
you're talking about the extremely common rounds (.30-06, .270, 9mm,
etc...)i


Only if you're comparing apples to oranges- as in Winchester white box vs much more accurate hand loads.

Now if you compare the price of commercial match grade ammo to match grade handloads, the latter will win every time.


Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 01:03 PM (SY2Kh)

239 Here in California if you tried having your kids birthday party at a gun
range they probably throw you in jail and try taking the kids away from
you


God bless Texas.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 01:04 PM (8y9MW)

240 I LOVE the Ruger 10/22. The next to last time my late husband and I were at the range, there was a younger guy there who had purchased a 10/22 and with off the shelf parts had tricked it out to look kind of like an AR15, with a collapsible stock, great scope, cheek piece, etc. I wanted one really badly, and my husband even found one in pink (I passed on it - pink has a place, and it ain't in firearms). I think the R10/22 is a great starter for a young un, boy or girl. And don't think that your young girls won't be interested - at a certain age, children are usually interested in anything their parents are interested in sharing with them, because they want your love and attention.

Posted by: jclittlep at November 21, 2012 01:04 PM (PVOHJ)

241 145
Minute of badguy at 7 yards.

Huh? I'm sure that makes sense to people who aren't novices.


Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:39 PM (8y9MW)

Minute of angle is a standard of precision discussed in these circles. 1 minute of angle is an angular measurement (degree, minutes, seconds) that corresponds roughly to 1" of separation between two points at 100 yards.
By minute of bad guy, he/she was referring to being able to hit within a roughly 18" circle at seven yards away. The tighter the shot groups the better, as the 18" corresponds roughly to the torso width of a potential target.
And 7 yards is probably the minimum you would want to start to think about shooting an attacker considering that, within that zone, the closer he/she is, the more likely he could reach you before you got a chance to draw and shoot accurately.

Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 01:04 PM (Kkt/i)

242
this is a good opportunity to link a classic

the smith wesson gun cam, a dedicated camera trained on a handgun to watch for "gun violence"

http://tinyurl.com/4zaj49


Posted by: Soothsayer at November 21, 2012 01:05 PM (5p4n9)

243 You can usually buy ammo for about the same price as reloading when

you're talking about the extremely common rounds (.30-06, .270, 9mm,

etc...)i

Only if you're comparing apples to oranges- as in Winchester white box vs much more accurate hand loads.

Now if you compare the price of commercial match grade ammo to match grade handloads, the latter will win every time.

-------------------------------------

Excellent point. Price rounds with SMKs, or Nosler partition, or Trophy bonded.

Then price a box of projectiles.

The press looks better and better....

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:06 PM (qBLA2)

244 Re-using your brass (an impossibility for military brass with crimped
primers BTW for you beginners) will save you some money in the long run.
The more uncommon your case is the more you will save.




You can get what is called a "primer pocket reamer" to remove those crimps in military brass.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:06 PM (YdQQY)

245 Ace is up. Dammit.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 21, 2012 01:06 PM (da5Wo)

246 My 2 cents on handloading. Agreed with most of what y'allhave said. I've been at it for 35 years, 30 years with the same Rockchucker. The very best reason is if you load obscure cartridges. I load .348 W, .32-20, .44 Spec. Relaoding is much less expensive than buying factory, and the performance improvement in .44 Special and .32-20 is substanital.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 01:07 PM (C0alm)

247 Longbows. Definitely.

Posted by: rdbrewer at November 21, 2012 01:08 PM (Iyg03)

248 I have a Remington 11-87 on the way to a local gun shop. 12Gauge auto loader shotgun. I ordered it from Davidson's Gallery of Guns website.

It's my first shotgun, any ammo recommendations? Target shooting and home defense is the plan.

Posted by: Jimbro at November 21, 2012 01:08 PM (5OQ35)

249 156
flounder - the latest American Rifleman has a puff piece about what part the NRA played in the FF issue.

Mike V and David C were never mentioned.

Without them - this would never have come to light.


Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:42 PM (qBLA2)

Saw that. I don't read their narratives on FF anymore, because I know it is mostly salesmanship. And I have already got the straighter dope online.

Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 01:08 PM (Kkt/i)

250 Hi, I've been waiting for a thread like this. I've posted this on the Facebook and Yahoo pages before, but posts get buried so quickly there. Anyway, it looks like I'll be taking an assignment in either Kurdistan or Lebanon for the next 2-3 years--I expect to be MikeinSulaimani by the end of the spring--and I have some hunting properties that I obviously won't be using any time soon. So who better to share it with than the people here. I have 14 acres in Chariton County, Missouri, 20 in Brewster County, Texas, and 40 in Butte County, South Dakota. Free for anyone who wants to use them for hunting or camping or whatever. Just let me know, and I'll send you directions and Google Earth links and the whole works. You can find me on the Facebook page--just look for someone named Michael who lives in Amman. Or here. I am 8 hours ahead of East Coast time, but I try to keep up with the comments.

Posted by: MikeinAmman at November 21, 2012 01:08 PM (lt5JJ)

251 New ace thread up so political stuff now available for those with withdrawal symptoms.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:09 PM (YdQQY)

252 RE - military brass.

Use the primer pocket swager, hit it with case mouth uniformer and use remington primers.

Also, beware of military brass which has gone through a pig or a 240.

Possible headspace issues. Large MG chambers.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:09 PM (qBLA2)

253 Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 12:57 PM (vtiE6)

First thing is safety. A thorough familiarity with the the operating mechanism, the safeties and proper procedure to clear it.

If somebody hands me a weapon and doesn't clear it first, I will punch them.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 01:09 PM (sGWH5)

254 If somebody hands me a weapon and doesn't clear it first, I will punch them.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 01:09 PM (sGWH5)


You're gonna punch a guy who's a holding a weapon that you don't know is properly cleared?

Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 21, 2012 01:11 PM (da5Wo)

255 I have a Remington 11-87 on the way to a local gun shop. 12Gauge auto
loader shotgun. I ordered it from Davidson's Gallery of Guns website.



It's my first shotgun, any ammo recommendations? Target shooting and home defense is the plan.

Lots and lots of practice. Keep an eye on the rubber gas ring.

It will be the first casualty.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:11 PM (qBLA2)

256 >>>>Only if you're comparing apples to oranges- as in Winchester white box vs much more accurate hand loads.
Now if you compare the price of commercial match grade ammo to match grade handloads, the latter will win every time.

While that is pretty much always true some rounds don't have a performance profile ( I'm not interested in rote accuracy, I need energy too) such that it makes sense to be pursuing those long ranges; for instance beyond 300 yds the 5.56 is pretty weak, factory ammo hits decent at 300. Unless I'm going to competition I probably wouldn't reload a 5.56 even though I already own all the equipment (minus dies) to do so. It just isn't worth my time.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 01:11 PM (0q2P7)

257
Posted by: maddogg at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (OlN4e)

Impressive. I bet it fits like a glove.

Posted by: Grey Fox at November 21, 2012 01:11 PM (LQjA9)

258 @248 Use the Breneke shotgun round good for self defense or big game...Always load a 00 in the first 2 positions followed by the slugs, Breneke also has a 8mm round for a Mauser that has all the muzzle energy of a Howitzer..

Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 01:12 PM (Q8Pu5)

259 @191 I second the Calguns.net shout out. They deserve infinite praise for their interactive "is it legal?" flowchart (which also illustrates how crazy and intentionally labyrinthine the CA gun laws are). They have a legal foundation that represents defendants in many 2nd amendment cases.

Anyone else visiting will find the general forums at Calguns to be both good reading and educational. You will also realize how f'ked we are our here (just don't be too smug about it, Obama's workin for you too).

Posted by: Chairman LMAO at November 21, 2012 01:13 PM (9eDbm)

260 MikeinAmman at November 21, 2012 01:08 PM (lt5JJ)
That's the only problemwith Texas. I live in Texas but the distance to Chariton county, MO is about the same as to Brewster county. That is some rough old country by the way......

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 01:14 PM (C0alm)

261 >>>It's my first shotgun, any ammo recommendations? Target shooting and home defense is the plan.

Target shooting? I imagine that means trap or skeet? Get the gun fitted. SOON, so you don't develop bad habits to compensate for bad fit. Fit on a shotgun is where almost all of your accuracy comes from. Remington had a remarkable gun in the 1100/11-87 (Don't confuse the two they are very different on the inside) that they made a reliable, affordable, semi-automatic shotgun, that fits not one single person on the planet. All of them need to be fitted.

Other than that practice practice practice. Shotgun is a weapon of feel and reflex, unlike a rifle which is almost a zen execution of process.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 01:16 PM (0q2P7)

262 @164

Check here.

http://blog.hsoi.com/2009/06/15/correcting-handgun-shooting-problems/

Also, note that, with changes in the amount of recoil (e.g., heavier recoiling rounds) your point of impact will change as the amount of wrist movement will vary and the length of time the bullet is traveling through the barrel will vary. Your Sig might be designed for shooting 230 grain standard ammo, while hot 180ish grain might not be ideal for the sight setup.

You can also change sights if you find that you are not committing the errors at the link above and don't want to try different ammo. But changing ammo first would be an easy first step.

Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 01:16 PM (Kkt/i)

263 Hollowpoint - I agree, comparing white-box to Norma is an apples to oranges comparison, but dead is dead and rarely do you need match grade ammo to accomplish that.

Reloading, or not reloading, is a question of economics. How much is it worth to you to have the best possible bullet/powder/COAL setup for your rifle, versus throwing down $15.99 at Wally World and blasting away.

If you don't mind spending countless hours being creepy in your basement working at the reloading bench (my wife says it makes me seem creepy) then it makes sense to reload vs. buy new.

Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 01:16 PM (mfWu+)

264 Yes, it is, Alamo. But close to Big Bend, so it's worth it for me. Mule deer and javelina, and some of the other property owners tell me they've seen mountain lions. It's in Terlingua Ranch, but it's not for everybody.

Posted by: MikeinAmman at November 21, 2012 01:16 PM (lt5JJ)

265 Thanks, will do the research + practice. Hope to report the results on this thread within a few weeks

Posted by: Jimbro at November 21, 2012 01:17 PM (5OQ35)

266 If somebody hands me a weapon and doesn't clear it first, I will punch them.
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 01:09 PM (sGWH5)

He asked specific questions. I answered them. You better believe people I have taught (many of whom I love more than my own life)know the rules down to the individual strands of theirDNAbefore touching a firearm in my presence.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 01:17 PM (vtiE6)

267 Guns are fun, even at weddings...

http://tinyurl.com/d5scjsk

Dumb. Ass.

Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 01:18 PM (fWAjv)

268 @248 Use the Breneke shotgun round good for self defense or big game...Always load a 00 in the first 2 positions followed by the slugs, Breneke also has a 8mm round for a Mauser that has all the muzzle energy of a Howitzer..
Pentration in your home is a serious consideration. Brennkes or any other slug, or buck for that matter will penetrate several walls endangering your family. The beauty of shotguns as home defense weaponsis the low pentration capabilitiesof birdshot, say number 4s down to 6s. And they will kill anyone you shoot at distances relevan to home defense.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 01:18 PM (C0alm)

269 Grass Roots North Carolina (GRNC.org) and NRA here.

For you NC people, GRNC is responsible for getting our initial concealed carry law passed.

Posted by: blindside at November 21, 2012 01:19 PM (x7g7t)

270 For those considering reloading, the following a great place to start on the internet. Otherwise a reloading manual is a good start as well.

http://ultimatereloader.com/

Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 01:22 PM (Kkt/i)

271
Read an article suggesting bolt-action Moisin-Nagants as a decent (much cheaper.*) alternative to a Springfield 1903 or Lee Enfield .303. You can get them for $100-150 at sporting good stores.

The trick is to pick one that isn't worn out.

Here's the question. How hard is it to figure out, in the store, if a rifle is a good shooter or all worn out?

*ammo is a lot cheaper as well.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at November 21, 2012 01:23 PM (IH2b5)

272 A note for glocksters who want to reload.

Jacketed bullets only for glock barrels. Everything else being done correctly, that will keep the inside parts on the inside.

If you go to a Wolf barrel, or another with standard rifling - have at it.

Also, the good little germans will void your warranty for ANY reloads.

Plastic is plastic...


Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:23 PM (qBLA2)

273 Glocks are not German, they are Austrian.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 01:24 PM (pLTLS)

274 MikeinAmman at November 21, 2012 01:16 PM (lt5JJ)
Oh I love that country, you just have to be a tough sob to survive there!I agreethe Big Bend is someof the most beautiful country on the planet, and there is plenty of game. Talked to a guy recently who said they also have credible evidence that jaguars are venturing out of Chihuahua on occasion as well.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 01:25 PM (C0alm)

275 The Mini-14 market niche existed because M-16/AR-15s were hard to get. Given todays AR market, it is hard to go with the Mini.

Posted by: Jean at November 21, 2012 01:25 PM (tZYm2)

276 Moisin-Nagants are a POS and have no comparison at all to an 03. My little brother had one.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:25 PM (YdQQY)

277 To revisit the reloaders question, we weren't discussing professional shooters, were we?

I wasn't aware we were catering to the elitist branch of the shooting sports world with the thread.

Yeah, if you got the money, get a Dillion. If your just starting out, doesn't make much sense to plunk down over $800 for a Dillion progressive when you can plunk down less than $300 for a lee until you know what your doing or even if you want to keep up with it.

Of course I'm sure there are some Hornady or RCBS folks who would disagree with both of us.

Jeebus.

Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 01:25 PM (OvRHg)

278
Glocks are not German, they are Austrian.

Do they speak Austrian????

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:26 PM (qBLA2)

279 And they will kill anyone you shoot at distances relevan to home defense.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 01:18 PM (C0alm)

I personally witnessed the effectivness of birdshot from a 12GA at close range (15 feet) and further range about 40). This was on an unchoked shotgun and the round was not a magnum load.

Target: piece of 3/8 plywood (I think it was 3/8 inch)

At about 40 feet , very little of the shot hit the target, and what did was widely spread out and embedded in it. If you are a bad guy, it would hurt and it might take you out of the fight, but it likely would not kill you barring some lucky (or unlucky, depending if you are the shooter or shootee) break.

At

Simply put: If you're a human taking a shotgun blast at that distance, you're fucked. Even if you are wearing body armor...you're definitely hurting.




Posted by: blindside at November 21, 2012 01:26 PM (x7g7t)

280 273 Glocks are not German, they are Austrian.
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 01:24 PM (pLTLS)

I would love to take a factory tour...if only I spoke Austrian.

Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 01:26 PM (fWAjv)

281 Here's the question. How hard is it to figure out, in the store, if a rifle is a good shooter or all worn out?


Work the action and hold your thumb in the chamber nail side facing the barrel with light shining in the action. Look down the barrel and look at the rifling grooves.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:27 PM (YdQQY)

282 >>>Here's the question. How hard is it to figure out, in the store, if a rifle is a good shooter or all worn out?


If you've looked down the barrels of lots of rifles not hard. If you haven't it's damn hard to spot a worn barrel unless the rifling is all but gone.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 01:27 PM (0q2P7)

283 Catman, the issue is quality and reliability.

Dillon also makes single stage presses.

My point of bringing up competitive shooters is to demonstrate what WORKS.

Most of these guys get their stuff given to them and they have a choice of the entire industry.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:28 PM (qBLA2)

284 I was thinking of getting a Glock-7 in Dec, but it costs more than I make in month.

Posted by: brando at November 21, 2012 01:28 PM (IPGju)

285 Birdshot is terribly ineffective for self defense. It does surface damage, but has very little penetration. Use buckshot.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 01:29 PM (pLTLS)

286 Check out the glock 18, then.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:29 PM (qBLA2)

287 284 I was thinking of getting a Glock-7 in Dec, but it costs more than I make in month.
Posted by: brando at November 21, 2012 01:28 PM (IPGju)

If you want an all porcelain gun that gets through airport security you have to pay the price.

Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 01:31 PM (fWAjv)

288 I will second earlier comment on Remington 597 as a great rifle.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 01:31 PM (Z9EHQ)

289 blindside at November 21, 2012 01:26 PM (x7g7t)
You live in a hellof a lot bigger house than me! The average self defense situation takes place at half that distance, and even a short-barreled defense shotgun is usually choked at least improved cylinder. IC will place over 50% of its pattern in a 30 in circle........... at thirty yards. At bedroom distances a badguy will absorb every pellet. He's dead.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 01:32 PM (C0alm)

290 Check out theboxotruth.com for the skinny on what works and what doesn't.

Pretty interesting.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:32 PM (qBLA2)

291 I have a Remington 11-87 on the way to a local gun shop. 12Gauge auto
loader shotgun. I ordered it from Davidson's Gallery of Guns website.



It's my first shotgun, any ammo recommendations? Target shooting and home defense is the plan.

Lots and lots of practice. Keep an eye on the rubber gas ring.

It will be the first casualty.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:11 PM (qBLA2)

send everyone out and practice around the house - practice like you play. only joking.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 01:33 PM (Z9EHQ)

292 Laws about guns are one of the few things in the world that is un-google-able. In all the things that all of us that work on the show research all day long everyday and all of the days that we work on the show there's a tiny handful of topics that you literally can't do your research about on Google.

But laws about guns; that is the one thing that has nothing to do with sex that you can't get any useful information about by Google-ing. Because the gun lobby so completely dominates the debate. Because of that I will not even advise you to do your own independent research about this online. You have to do it at the library and in books. You will not find trustworthy, unbiased, about this online. I'm telling you.

Posted by: Transgendered Jason Biggs at November 21, 2012 01:33 PM (fWAjv)

293 Get the gun fitted. SOON, so you don't develop bad habits to compensate for bad fit.>>

I'd never heard of fitting a shotgun before. I've had shotguns that I loved and some that I hated. After looking it up and reading the lined article it may not have been the guns themselves but the fit. Thanks for leading me to higher learning.

http://tinyurl.com/avmy44l

Posted by: Buzzsaw at November 21, 2012 01:33 PM (tf9Ne)

294 Birdshot is terribly ineffective for self defense. It does surface damage, but has very little penetration. Use buckshot.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 01:29 PM (pLTLS)

Depends on the distance and circumstances. For home defense it is best because distance will be less than 15 feet at which it is lethal. After it does go through the intruder it probably will do no damage going through interior walls to people on the other side.
Buckshot will whistle through them, the next interior wall and the exterior wall killing anything in its path.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:34 PM (YdQQY)

295
> 135 Anyone have an ioinion on the Chiappa Rhino? ...
Posted by: Kinley Ardal


If concealed carry is the need... it looks like it has a LOT of moving parts (things that can go wrong) compared to alternatives.

Other than that, no opinion.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at November 21, 2012 01:35 PM (IH2b5)

296 Alamo, I love to hear that about the jaguars, and I love the fact that there are still places in my country--Congaree Swamp in South Carolina is another one--where you can literally spend days there without seeing another human being.
That's why I get so frustrated with American environmentalists. I've been all over the world, pretty much, and I don't know of any people more reverent towards the natural world than the hunting and fishing culture of the United States, most of whom are gun enthusiasts and conservatives.

Posted by: MikeinAmman at November 21, 2012 01:35 PM (lt5JJ)

297 The Glock 18 is fine, but I rather have Glocks that are made in Germany.

Posted by: brando at November 21, 2012 01:36 PM (IPGju)

298 I shoot a ton. I've a ton of rifles and pistols. No matter what i take to the range, I always seem to include my .357 Colt wheel-gun, my Kimber .45, and my 1894s lever gun in .357.

Some things are just fun to shoot.

Posted by: Comrade Trainer on his iphone at November 21, 2012 01:36 PM (L8M3D)

299 19
Have any of you morons actually done a 80%ARLower build? Was it very difficult?

Not bad, but jig, drill bits will be an added cost, then you can build as many as you want. Can't sell them though. Legally

Posted by: Farmer at November 21, 2012 01:37 PM (joG3U)

300 A word of caution for first time gun owners:

It is very likely you will be excited about your new aquisition and all it means. But by no means should you try to share your enthusiasm by running outside to show your neighbors and yelling "I've got a GUN! I've got a GUN!".

Please.

Trust me on this one.

Posted by: Dadof3 at November 21, 2012 01:38 PM (cBI/m)

301 Fitting a shotgun is sort of post grad stuff. It DOES help, but its expensive.

Start with basics like finding your master eye. Spend 15 minutes a day mounting an EMPTY gun correctly.

Pattern the gun on a stationary target to find where the majority of pellets are hitting.

Goe to Dicks or one of those places who will give you a case discount on ammo. But reloadable cases (Double AA) because you just never know when or if you will reload. With light loads you can get a dozen shots out of one case before you start losing parts of the crimp.

And go shoot, shoot and shoot some more.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:40 PM (qBLA2)

302 Moisin-Nagants are a POS and have no comparison at all to an 03. My little brother had one.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:25 PM (YdQQY)

I wouldn't compare a Mosin-Nagant to a 1903 Springfield, apples and oranges, but there's simply no better deal on a well-built, large caliber, bolt-action rifle out there than the Mosin. I bought one for $100 a while back, a somewhat beat-up WWII veteran. Whoever fought with it took care of it. I refinished the stock and gave it a trigger job. The bore was in great shape when I got it, and it shoots reasonably tight groups at 100 yards. It is not a POS.

If you can't kill it with a Mosin-Nagant, it can't be killed.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 01:40 PM (vtiE6)

303 GP,

As with firearms, for some it boils down to personal preference. Some it comes down to simple economy.

Not everyone can afford a Colt or a Kimber. Put a Taurus .45 in the hands of a pro, theyLl do amazing things with them. Put a Kimber in the hands of a novice, the quality won't matter. Same with reloading equipment or pretty much anything else.

No worries...

Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 01:40 PM (OvRHg)

304 Depends on the distance and circumstances. For home defense it is best because distance will be less than 15 feet at which it is lethal. After it does go through the intruder it probably will do no damage going through interior walls to people on the other side.
Buckshot will whistle through them, the next interior wall and the exterior wall killing anything in its path.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:34 PM (YdQQY)

I agree birdshot is not your first or best choice for home defense but if you are close enough it is good enough. I also suspect that the motivation / drive of the average intruder is not so high that a load of birdshot is not sufficient t make them turn and run. Maybe not enough for a cracked up burglar or some nork hit squad coming to exact revenge for your comments here but more often than not good enough.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 01:41 PM (Z9EHQ)

305 The Glock 18 is fine, but I rather have Glocks that are made in Germany.

But the stampings are all in Austrian - so whats one to do?

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:41 PM (qBLA2)

306 On the shotgun home defense ammo discussion...

Anyone have any experience or comments on Remington's HD ammo?:
http://tinyurl.com/2dwuwqa

Posted by: sdavis at November 21, 2012 01:41 PM (njVMI)

307 >>At about 40 feet , very little of the shot hit the target,

40 ft? You mean 13yds? You get like 90% of your pellets inside of 8 inches. The human chest is over a foot wide.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 01:43 PM (0q2P7)

308 I have the Remington 513T 22lr bolt action that my daughter has claimed as her own.

This one has a red dot indicator so you know when the pin is out. It is fun to plink with.

Posted by: sTevo at November 21, 2012 01:43 PM (VMcEw)

309 On the shotgun home defense ammo discussion...



Anyone have any experience or comments on Remington's HD ammo?:

http://tinyurl.com/2dwuwqa

Looks like a marketing gimmick. 2 3/4 1250 fps is nothing more than a 3 3/4 dram high brass pheasant load.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:44 PM (qBLA2)

310 Not everyone can afford a Colt or a Kimber. Put a Taurus .45 in the hands of a pro, theyLl do amazing things with them. Put a Kimber in the hands of a novice, the quality won't matter. Same with reloading equipment or pretty much anything else.

No worries...
Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 01:40 PM (OvRHg)

yeah but, it is the least experienced shooters that will benefit the most from the most reliable firearms. some door kicker with thousands of hours of experience is going to be able to manage a misfire or stovepipe or failure of any sort much better than anyone facing a home defense situation for the first and only time.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 01:44 PM (Z9EHQ)

311 Mosin-Nagant - invest $120 buy one, seal it up in a PVC pipe, bury it and a spam can and hope you never have to dig them up.


Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 01:45 PM (mfWu+)

312
Big +1 on the Lee Classic Turret press.

It's inexpensive, it can essentially be used as a single stage if needed, the learning curve is relatively easy, thetoolhead switchout process is waaaay cheaper than Dillon, and you can still crank out a respectable number of rounds per hour once you're up to speed.

Posted by: Jaws at November 21, 2012 01:46 PM (4I3Uo)

313
229 When my daughter was about 3, she wanted to tromp around with me in the snow to shoot crows.


Hope you had "permission" from the feds. Damn crows fall under the migratory bird act. They will allow you to shoot them if you ask them and tell them they are a "nuisance" to your "farm", but you have to ask first.

----------

But I think you can shoot Starlings and Grackles...which are not native to No. America, and are considered 'invasive species'.
Which they are.

Starlings are the speckled black birds from Europe.
Grackles are the ones from Africa, solid black with long curved wing feathers...and have a sort of 'oil slick' sheen on their feathers.

Unlike our native Crows and Red-Wing Blackbirds...Starlings and Grackles are a huge nuisance, because they descend down ona food source and instead of flying away when they've had their fill...they sit there and eat-and-poop until it is all gone.

Posted by: wheatie at November 21, 2012 01:46 PM (ICEh3)

314 Moisin-Nagants are a POS and have no comparison at all to an 03. My little brother had one.

If you know of a better $100 bolt action high powered rifle, be sure to let us know.

I have a couple. They're fun to shoot if a bit crude. Durable though, with lots of cheap surplus ammo available.

But no, you won't win any beauty or accuracy contests with one.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 01:48 PM (SY2Kh)

315 I for one am going hunting in the morning on Thanksgiving. I can't think of a better way to spend Thanksgiving with the one you love. ;.)

Gun/hunting thread once a week. Yes.

Posted by: Blackburnshost at November 21, 2012 01:48 PM (ttwxj)

316 I generally disfavor shotguns for most self defense tasks. They are slow to reload and have a slow rate of fire. BUT they are very destructive. One must devote time to the shotgun and learn its idiosyncracies. Ammo capacity is also limited but can be partially addressed via things like sidesaddles.

Do not use birdshot. You are betting your life on a less effective round. If overpenetration is a concern, consider a different firearm - a 5.56 carbine would be ideal and won't overpenetrate (even though most people don't believe this - studies back this up).

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 01:48 PM (pLTLS)

317 I know Patton, it's a tough one. I'll just have to settle for one of those heat seeking guns that Tom Selleck likes so much. Either that or a acid squirting robot spider.

Posted by: brando at November 21, 2012 01:48 PM (IPGju)

318 I think if one is determined to use shot, #2 hevi shot would be a good one.

This is the only shot I have used that went through and through on a canada goose.

Pretty impressive.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:50 PM (qBLA2)

319 Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 01:41 PM (Z9EHQ)


My first foreman was killed by a shotgun at about 15 feet with bird shot. It blew a fist size hole through him.


Bird shot is the first choice for home defense unless you intend on shooting them outside as they run away.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:51 PM (YdQQY)

320 Buckshot will whistle through them, the next interior wall and the exterior wall killing anything in its path.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:34 PM (YdQQY)


For whatever reason, generally, shotgunners never caught on to the Defensive Load Revolution of the 80s, and keep buying hunting loads for home defense.

There are buckshot and even slug loads designed specifically for home defense, by companies like Hornady, Brenneke and others, that are designed to reduce problems like overpenetration. They tend to have less recoil too.

Go ahead and use cheaper hunting loads for practice, but consider a specialty load for defense - just like most people do with handguns.

Interesting, even most people who keep carbines for self-defense tend to use generic or military loads instead of speciality loads. It can get expensive.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 01:51 PM (bxiXv)

321 Plenty of people are dead from .22s and I don't bet my life on that either.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 01:52 PM (pLTLS)

322 But I think you can shoot Starlings and Grackles...which are not native to No. America, and are considered 'invasive species'.
Which they are

Wheatie
------------------------------


I don't think so. I have checked on grackles and cow birds and they fall under the treaty. Starlings probably do too.


In fact, I don't think I have ever found a single bird that did not fall under it. Maybe an owl but you damn sure better not shoot one of them because they fall under other rules.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:53 PM (YdQQY)

323 Check out the glock 18, then.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:29 PM (qBLA2)


I had the good fortune to get to shoot with a Glock 18 once. It's pretty awesome shooting a full auto handgun, but you burn through ammo absurdly fast.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 21, 2012 01:55 PM (DrWcr)

324 Great. I killed the thread.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 21, 2012 01:55 PM (DrWcr)

325
In fact, I don't think I have ever found a single bird that did not
fall under it. Maybe an owl but you damn sure better not shoot one of
them because they fall under other rules.


MMMM, spotted owl.

Tasty!

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:56 PM (qBLA2)

326 My niece, who is 15 now, is Junior NRA and a damn fine shot with a rifle. Her father took her out hunting pretty young. I know she was about 9 or so. It was all about safety and she has learned well.

Posted by: mpfs at November 21, 2012 01:56 PM (iYbLN)

327 My first foreman was killed by a shotgun at about 15 feet with bird shot. It blew a fist size hole through him.


Bird shot is the first choice for home defense unless you intend on shooting them outside as they run away.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:51 PM (YdQQY)

I f i was unclear because of my inclusion of one too many "not"s I was agreeing with you. I meant to say you average intruder is going to turn and run from bird.

I agree at ten to twenty feet you are going to achieve what you desire with bird.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 01:57 PM (Z9EHQ)

328 And you can't buy a Glock 18 unless you're "special"

The Hughes Amendment makes any full-auto made after May 1986 illegal for civilian ownership. The Glock 18 was created after that, so there are only two ways to get one:

1. Be a cop, and have the department buy you one
2. Get a special gun dealer's license, pay a special tax, and buy one as a "Post-May Dealer Sample"

Note that if you go with #2, you actually have to run a gun dealer business, or the ATF will make your life miserable.

Actually, they'll do that either way.

Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 01:58 PM (HDCAA)

329 I agree birdshot is not your first or best choice for home defense but
if you are close enough it is good enough. I also suspect that the
motivation / drive of the average intruder is not so high that a load of
birdshot is not sufficient t make them turn and run.


Unless they're wearing heavy clothing and/or wired on crank.

A self defense weapon should be capable of incapacitating an intruder. Given that follow up shots aren't so quick with a shotgun, it should be with one shot.

The concern about over-penetration isn't completely unwarranted, but show me a single instance- ever- where someone was seriously hurt or killed as a result of over-penetration through a wall in a self-defense situation. It just doesn't happen.

00 buck might be overkill, but I'm not going to rely on hopes that the Bad Guy will give up after receiving a non-life threatening surface wound. I don't want him to have any choice in the matter.

tl;dr Birdshot is for shooting birds. If it can't penetrate vital organs through a couple layers of clothing, it's not suitable for self defense.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:00 PM (SY2Kh)

330 I can honestly say I'm am really excited about picking up my Ruger SP101 next week.


Posted by: mpfs at November 21, 2012 02:00 PM (iYbLN)

331 I suppose you could go the stetchkin route, and only be sort of special.

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 02:01 PM (qBLA2)

332 mpfs - nice gun. When you run out of ammo, you can easily beat a man to death with it. Those Rugers are stout.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:01 PM (pLTLS)

333 My first foreman was killed by a shotgun at about 15 feet with bird shot. It blew a fist size hole through him.



Bird shot is the first choice for home defense unless you intend on shooting them outside as they run away.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:51 PM (YdQQY)


I call bullshit. You're relaying a second or third hand account, aren't you?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:03 PM (SY2Kh)

334 Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 01:48 PM (pLTLS)
The idiosyncracies of a (pump, semi-auto, double) shotgun versus what exactly? An AR? An auto pistol? Shotguns are infinitely easier to hit with in the dark, when you are disoriented from sleep, when you are frightened, whatever. I am not a contrarian, or don't mean to be, but a shotgun is by far the best home defense weapon available in my opinion. I am an accomplished pistol shot and competitor, but place a shotgun next my bed and my 1911 on my nightstand, I'll reach for the scattergun when the door breaks down.
Effectiveness? Any shotgun round short of dust shot is more lethal than a pistol slug at 15 feet. No comparison. And cutting loose with an AR in an occupied home? Either you don't have kids, or you're not very fond of them.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 02:06 PM (C0alm)

335 I call bullshit. You're relaying a second or third hand account, aren't you?


Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:03 PM (SY2Kh)

No it was from someone who was there. And on this score you are full of shit. He was also wearing a jacket at the time. It was in the late fall.

At 15 feet the shot has barely had time to exit the cup and start expanding.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 02:08 PM (YdQQY)

336 You know that all you retarts are on the GoTimothy list now, right?

Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 02:09 PM (fWAjv)

337 @300 no kidding. In the bay area (yeah "that" one), you run the risk of being practically disowned by people you knew as friends for years once they find out you own a gun. Just because someone acts cool with the guns/2nd amendment culture (and who loves a movie with guns and explosions) doesn't mean they won't freak out if someone they know actually has one.

Posted by: Chairman LMAO at November 21, 2012 02:10 PM (9eDbm)

338 Witchfinder,

I was going to go with the Smith and Wesson but I liked the feel of the Ruger in my hands. I have two of my father's SW 38s, later I'll buy the 357 Magnum.

I got some good advice from my firearms trainer. Imagine a little lawyer attached to every bullet you fire especially in California.

Posted by: mpfs at November 21, 2012 02:10 PM (iYbLN)

339 Whatever cases you don't reload can be traded for goodies with those who do

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 02:10 PM (XDC0v)

340 Bird shot is the first choice for home defense unless you intend on shooting them outside as they run away. Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:51 PM (YdQQY) My first choice for home defense is the big revolver on the nightstand. I want to be able to have one of my hands free. And like others on this thread, I question the logic of employing a weapon or a load not specifically intended to quickly incapacitate a human being.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 02:10 PM (vtiE6)

341 Boxotruth test on Federal #1 buck and flite control wad./

Pretty interesting.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56_2.htm

Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 02:14 PM (qBLA2)

342 Alamo - Shotguns are difficult to shoot and operate effectively for the average person. I can shoot and feed one just fine, but I don't think anyone would argue that you can feed a shotgun faster than a pistol or AR.

If you are shooting guns in your house, in the dark, and you have kids, without identifying the target with a light, you are being negligent. All my serious firearms have lights on them and I also have handheld lights nearby.

I never said a shotgun wasn't a good choice for home defense or less lethal than a pistol, so I'm not sure why you said that.

5.56 rounds actually overpenetrate LESS than buckshot or pistol rounds. That's just a fact.

For your information, I use a shotgun as part of my home defense plan. I just don't think it's the panacea that everyone else does. There are trade-offs with a shotgun that must be acknowledged. That's all.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:14 PM (pLTLS)

343 @335 I thought law enforcement preferred #9 buckshot (for stopping power). Birdshot would leave one heck of a messy wound at point blank and easily penetrates clothing and flesh, doesn't penetrate body armor though.

Posted by: Chairman LMAO at November 21, 2012 02:15 PM (9eDbm)

344 Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 02:14 PM (qBLA2)


What home has a 15 yard room?

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 02:16 PM (YdQQY)

345 mpfs - your trainer was a wise man. We are all responsible for every bullet that we launch downrange. Ruger makes a nice revolver, and it will serve you well.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:17 PM (pLTLS)

346 No it was from someone who was there. And on this score you are full of
shit. He was also wearing a jacket at the time. It was in the late fall.


At 15 feet the shot has barely had time to exit the cup and start expanding.


Then that "someone who was there" was greatly exaggerating, assuming we're talking typical #6 or #8 bird shot. Complete penetration with a heavier duck load like #2? Maybe, but still the "fist sized hole" isn't very believable.

It's true that at that range there isn't much spread, but on hitting the target, shot pellets still act more like shot than a single projectile.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:18 PM (SY2Kh)

347
117I'm finally learning to appreciate and not fear guns after 38 years on this earth. A few months ago, my husband bought me my first pistol, which I have yet to work up the nerve to fire.
.
Find yourself a good NRA beginners class. They cover safety and basic marksmanship. Most major cities offer these classes in a "women only" format. Money well spent. If you are going to own or carry a pistol it is mandatory to feel comfortable with the use of it. ....It may save your life.

Posted by: Gunner at November 21, 2012 02:18 PM (XGLac)

348 5.56 rounds actually overpenetrate LESS than buckshot or pistol rounds. That's just a fact.


I used to have some hand loaded .223 which were hollow points. The bullets themselves were labeled as "super-explosive" (made by Hornady) but they were simply fragible ammo.


You are right that at room distances, particularly if you are shooting 6 shot or larger they would be less likely to penetrate additional walls.


I shot a dog with one once and it did go all the way through the dog but it looked like the bullet had completely disintegrated before exit.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 02:21 PM (YdQQY)

349 347
Agreed. Find a good firearms class for women. There are quite a few out there. I was lucky enough to find a very good firearms trainer who held classes at the gun shop. He wasn't condescending at all and answered every question I had no problem. When he took me to the range he was patient with me. Gave me a ton of confidence. I find I enjoy the hell out of it.

Posted by: mpfs at November 21, 2012 02:23 PM (iYbLN)

350 MikeInAmman,

I live in Austin. Brewster is doable. Any particular critters you want thinned down? I could walk the borders and send you pics if you don't have anyone keeping an eye on it for you.
I'd feel guilty not giving some payback though. If there are any folks around Austin who'd like to try some shooting, I don't have any scary black guns, but I have about one of every popular hunting rifle of the twentieth century, although the largest caliber is only a .375 H and H Magnum.

Posted by: Invictus at November 21, 2012 02:23 PM (OQpzc)

351 Anyone ever take a liberal shooting? Mrs. Witchfinder is a liberal and knew nothing about guns. I took her shooting early on and she LOVED it. I made sure to stress safety with her and introduced firearms that would not be too abusive in the recoil/muzzleblast department. I also let her use a pair of my Sordin Electronic Ear Pro. That way, she would be insulated from almost all the noise but we could converse normally.

I then took her to one of my Steel Challenge competitions and she was immediately hooked. She's competitive and demanded that I get her a gun and gear so she could compete! Victory for our side.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:24 PM (pLTLS)

352
What home has a 15 yard room?
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 02:16 PM (YdQQY)

well, it is interesting if you have a chance to consider the setting. our building - apartment - has one hallway which is 25 yards long everything else is under ten yards.

I mention this because during the sandy blackout there was a time when our bulding did not have cellular phone service, land line service, or internet / voip service and only one doorman with a flashlight was guarding the door and keys for every unit in the building, overnight. fortunately our area is very highly policed, however, if something had gone wrong and some gang of thugs had gotten into our building there would have been no way to call for help.
anyway, I was thinking through scenarios for what might go wrong with a couple of interested neighbors who decided to upgrade overnight security with me.
not especially hard to manage since the likely access points were easily controlled with an ounce of forethought.

shotguns mad a lot of sense in this scenario and birdshot would likely have been good enough. indeed it was probably the best option given the nyc firearm laws.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 02:25 PM (Z9EHQ)

353 Class 3 anyone? Or am I all alone in that department?

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:26 PM (pLTLS)

354 BTW, as for lethality when I first moved in here we had wild dogs roaming the area and not many people living around. I shot one of those wild dogs when a round of 00 Buck and hit him squarely in the chest from about 20 yards away.


It knocked him down and rolled him about 10 feet. He got back up and ran for another 20 or 30 yards.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 02:26 PM (YdQQY)

355 when = with

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 02:28 PM (YdQQY)

356 Great idea, Andy.

Any thread containing a single question about guns typically generates hundreds of additional comments.

It's a popular topic.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at November 21, 2012 02:29 PM (piMMO)

357 Class 3 anyone? Or am I all alone in that department?
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:26 PM (pLTLS)


Probably. I've shot Class 3 but don't own any. Full auto is a lot of fun but hard on the wallet.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 21, 2012 02:29 PM (DrWcr)

358 5.56 rounds actually overpenetrate LESS than buckshot or pistol rounds. That's just a fact. With a 5.56 or pistol round peneration is largely a matter of bullet construction. There are frangibles available for both, and they make sense in home defense. The standard FMC 5.56 round will fly though multiple layers of drywall, as will a hardball (or most JHP for that matter) pistol bullet.
My point in prefering the shotgun is that hitting the target under duress is much easier, particularly for the less experienced. Have you seen the statistices for the average gun fight engaged in by POs? Distance is like 11 feet, and hits are scoredless than 50% of the time. That is, a trained officer misses with a handgun the majority of the time. Pistol craft is a carefully developed and perishable skill. Short range defensive shotgun use is not nearly as demanding. And for the doubters, #6s at 15 feet will kill you. Dead. You are not dealing with individual pellets at that distance,the projectile at distances under 25 feetis a tightly packed,jsut beginning to seperate mass of pellets, weighing in at around an ounce, traveling 1200 fps.One once is 440 grains.
What psitol round matches that for weight of projectile or velocity? .500 Smith maybe.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 02:29 PM (C0alm)

359 Oh and of old topics, the 10/22 is nice and has the most accessories, but if you luck out on a Nylon 22 or Marlin 60/70 in good condition used it may be worth it.

The 60/70 have 16 micro-grooves as rifling rather than the more typical 4-5 deeper grooves, which deforms the bullet less and is at least arguably more accurate, though most shooters will never notice this.

Few accessories for the 60/70 except scopes.

The 60 is tube fed (19/18/15 depending on year and barrel length), the 70 uses a 10-round removable magazine IIRC.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 02:30 PM (bxiXv)

360 shotguns mad a lot of sense in this scenario and birdshot would likely have been good enough. indeed it was probably the best option given the nyc firearm laws.
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 02:25 PM (Z9EHQ)

a shotgun with birdshot is better than nothing

if you were scared for your life and shot bad guys in the face/neck or groin with birdshot at 25 feet, it may no be instantly fatal but would take alot of fight out of the said bad guys

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 02:31 PM (2CiZb)

361 @310

Yeah, cost doesn't always equate to reliability does it?

As with reloading, most people just stating out, the novice, don't have $1000 (or more) to throw down for a Kimber or colt, etc. they might be able to pick a Taurus for under $600. Or a few hundred for a used revolver.

We always get into these discussions in threads like this and it's an endless battle. For most people as I said before it is usually a personal preference or boils down to simple economics.

Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 02:32 PM (OvRHg)

362 For future gun threads, I'd like to hear about good concealed-carry holsters, especially for (cough) Persons of Curvature. Also shotgun recommendations.

Oh, and the 1911 is the perfect handgun. At least for me. We're a good team ;-)

Posted by: bad cat robot at November 21, 2012 02:33 PM (65lpa)

363 Also shotgun recommendations>>

For bird hunting my favorite is a Ithaca Featherlight.

http://www.ithacagun.com/featherlight.html

Posted by: Buzzsaw at November 21, 2012 02:37 PM (tf9Ne)

364 We always get into these discussions in threads like this and it's an endless battle. For most people as I said before it is usually a personal preference or boils down to simple economics.

Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 02:32 PM (OvRHg)


Actually it's kind of like 50% anecdotes and 50% reasons Not To Listen To Internet Gun Guy.

Which is a Sad But True thing, because obviously that's all of us.

There are a *handful* of people who actually *test* things in a meaningful way, for some cultural reason the "gun culture" is much more comfortable depending on anecdote and rumor.

It is maddening some days. Or most.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 02:38 PM (bxiXv)

365 Best all-around shotgun is the Remington Model 1100. The choke size is dependent on what you will be hunting but I have found with the modern ammo you don't have to choke as much.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 02:40 PM (YdQQY)

366 if you were scared for your life and shot bad guys in the face/neck or groin with birdshot at 25 feet, it may no be instantly fatal but would take alot of fight out of the said bad guys

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 02:31 PM (2CiZb)

agreed, there is a lot of difference in motivation between the average gang thug looking to plunder and pillage an apartment building and Navy SEALs running up a staircase to get bin laden. a deal breaker for the former is a flesh wound for the later.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 02:42 PM (Z9EHQ)

367 a shotgun with birdshot is better than nothing



if you were scared for your life and shot bad guys in the face/neck
or groin with birdshot at 25 feet, it may no be instantly fatal but
would take alot of fight out of the said bad guys


Better than nothing? Of course.

The point isn't to take "a lot" of fight out of them. It's to take all of it. And I'd rather not rely on scoring a perfect head or groin shot in a self defense situation. At typical self defense ranges, the spread is so small that a shotgun needs to be aimed every bit as much as a rifle.

Test after test suggests that birdshot is a poor choice for home defense- it just doesn't reliably penetrate deeply enough to reach the vitals.

Can a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot at close range be lethal? Definitely. So can a .22 derringer. Doesn't mean I'd roll the dice by relying on one.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:43 PM (SY2Kh)

368 If you want to know what load to use in your shotgun to stop someone you could ask the gentleman in Harris County who shot and killed two burglarscoming out of his neighbors house.

No billed by the way.

Posted by: polynikes at November 21, 2012 02:43 PM (m2CN7)

369 Why no love for Browing shotguns? I've got a couple of old semi-autos like the A5, and I love the hell out of them.

Posted by: Invictus at November 21, 2012 02:46 PM (OQpzc)

370 364 - True. The gun culture is full of "truths" that are in fact garbage. For instance "one shot stops." Idiotic. The endless controversy over which handgun round is "more effective." Look closely at a 9mm, .40 and .45 round. They are all small. You will need to shoot an attacker multiple times to stop them. Your attacker is most likely a hardened criminal and just the sight of a gun won't "scare them away."

The facts of gunfights are unknown to most gunowners and scary to contemplate. The fact is, most people rarely shoot their guns and NEVER train with them for a violent encounter. It won't be like the movies. It will be messy, and fast, and brutal.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:47 PM (pLTLS)

371 The point isn't to take "a lot" of fight out of them. It's to take all of it. And I'd rather not rely on scoring a perfect head or groin shot in a self defense situation. At typical self defense ranges, the spread is so small that a shotgun needs to be aimed every bit as much as a rifle.

Test after test suggests that birdshot is a poor choice for home defense- it just doesn't reliably penetrate deeply enough to reach the vitals.

Can a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot at close range be lethal? Definitely. So can a .22 derringer. Doesn't mean I'd roll the dice by relying on one.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:43 PM (SY2Kh)

yeah but - you do need some consideration of the shooter. number of women who are going to be making headshots with a .45 in a home invasion scenario is pretty low; same for men as well.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 02:49 PM (Z9EHQ)

372 Anyone ever take a liberal shooting?
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:24 PM (pLTLS)

My girlfriend comes from Boston, which has a nonexistent gun culture, whereas I grew up in rural Indiana, where hunting and shooting are just part of the day. She was vehemently anti-gun when we first met, but after her purse was wrenched from her shoulder by a lowlife asshole in the parking lot where she works in the city, she asked me to teach her how to shoot and to walk her through the process to get a carry license.

Now she's Annie Oakley at the range, adept at both rifle and handgun. Licensed to carry, she carries a Ruger LCP .380 in a hidden holster purse with a Barretta Bobcat in an ankle rigas a backup. I feel badly for the crook dumb enough to mess with her.

She and my daughter, both shooters now, still forbid me to hunt, though. Working on it.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 02:51 PM (vtiE6)

373 yeah but - you do need some consideration of the shooter. number of women who are going to be making headshots with a .45 in a home invasion scenario is pretty low; same for men as well.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 02:49 PM (Z9EHQ)


You know, no offense, but the freaking goalposts around her have rockets on them.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 02:52 PM (bxiXv)

374 agreed, there is a lot of difference in motivation between the average
gang thug looking to plunder and pillage an apartment building and Navy
SEALs running up a staircase to get bin laden. a deal breaker for the
former is a flesh wound for the later.


Probably but maybe not. Why take that chance?

The first concealed carry class I took used a lot of real world examples of actual defense shootings. One included a bank robber who was shot through the heart with a .380 by an off duty cop. After that one shot, his Walther jam-o-matic jammed.

The robber responded by unloading 5 rounds at the cop at point blank range from his revolver. He missed all 5 times, ran out the door, and died in the parking lot.

They had the photo of the robber's heart, complete with hole in it, as well as a picture from the surveillance video. Point was- not every assailant will be immediately dissuaded by pain or even mortal wound.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:53 PM (SY2Kh)

375 You know, no offense, but the freaking goalposts around her have rockets on them.
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 02:52 PM (bxiXv)

well, no offense taken. it is a peculiar conversation to have in a forum with a varying ranke of knowledge and experience. maybe we can hit the merits of 5.56 vs 7.62.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 02:55 PM (Z9EHQ)

376 For future gun threads, I'd like to hear about good concealed-carry holsters, especially for (cough) Persons of Curvature. Also shotgun recommendations. Oh, and the 1911 is the perfect handgun. At least for me. We're a good team ;-)
Posted by: bad cat robot at November 21, 2012 02:33 PM (65lpa)

If you'rea woman whoseweapon is a large-framed, 1911-type pistol, I'd suggest looking at purse holsters. I bought my girlfriend one for her Ruger LCP (with a somewhat smaller holster compartment than you would need), and she really likes it. The nice ones are expensive, but with practice, they allow for a very fast presentation.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 02:56 PM (vtiE6)

377 For future gun threads, I'd like to hear about good concealed-carry holsters, especially for (cough) Persons of Curvature. Also shotgun recommendations.

Posted by: bad cat robot at November 21, 2012 02:33 PM (65lpa)


I've had good luck with a Bianchi In the Waistband. Very easy to cover with a anything from a T-shirt to sport coat. Shoulder holsters limit what you can wear but are a comfortable option. OWB Pancake holsters work well for curvy folk and still cut down on printing (gun showing through clothing). Personal preference on comfort and ease of access. Just make sure it is secure. Nothing more awkward than dropping your sidearm in front of people at Home Depot.

Class 3: I have a friend who has one and he occasionally brings his toys out to my place but it gets expensive fast. Favorite toy, the PPSH-41.

Anyone fellow 3 gunners? Dang, I knew this would be the thread I was late to.

Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 02:56 PM (4136b)

378 She and my daughter, both shooters now, still forbid me to hunt, though. Working on it.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 02:51 PM (vtiE6)

Some of those deear can be very aggressive. You had to shoot it in self-defense while you were peacefully hiking. Ducks are pretty mean too.

Posted by: Invictus at November 21, 2012 02:56 PM (OQpzc)

379
AR this, AR that, blah blah blah when everyone knows blackpowder is the best.

Posted by: rmark at November 21, 2012 02:56 PM (wgNcw)

380 maybe we can hit the merits of 5.56 vs 7.62.
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 02:55 PM (Z9EHQ)

gonna hit the 'easy' button for this...


7.62 always, unless you got to carry all that ammo.

loading out with 240 rounds of 7.62 is like 12lbs of just 'boolets'


Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 02:58 PM (2CiZb)

381 Why no love for Browing shotguns? I've got a couple of old semi-autos like the A5, and I love the hell out of them.

Horrible, dangerous guns liable to randomly explode and kill everyone in a 100 yard radius. You should get rid of them immediately.

Don't worry though. I'm willing to take them off your hands. Even pay for shipping. I'm caring like that.


Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:59 PM (SY2Kh)

382 AR this, AR that, blah blah blah when everyone knows blackpowder is the best.
Posted by: rmark at November 21, 2012 02:56 PM (wgNcw)

I own a Pietta reproduction 1861 Navy Colt .36 revolver. More fun than a human being can stand--and incredibly accurate if you keep loads consistent.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 03:01 PM (vtiE6)

383 gonna hit the 'easy' button for this...


7.62 always, unless you got to carry all that ammo.

loading out with 240 rounds of 7.62 is like 12lbs of just 'boolets'


Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 02:58 PM (2CiZb)

see, the problem is I agree with you, however, if you have a choice of fewer heavier bullets or more lighter bullets it is an interesting question. I am sure there are some situations where you might say "gee, I wish I had some smaller lighter bullets left instead of this big stick with the pointy thing I attached to the end.

Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 03:01 PM (Z9EHQ)

384 Posted by: bad cat robot at November 21, 2012 02:33 PM (65lpa)

Crossbreed SuperTuck. Best IWB's I've ever used, in both configurations...skinny me and fat me.

Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:03 PM (meVGV)

385 Anyone fellow 3 gunners? Dang, I knew this would be the thread I was late to.
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 02:56 PM (4136b)


what state do you shoot 3 gun at?

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 03:03 PM (2CiZb)

386 what state do you shoot 3 gun at?
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 03:03 PM (2CiZb)


MN & WI.

Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 03:05 PM (4136b)

387 Got to chime in about the Mosin Nagant rifles. Most of the ones you're currently going to see at retail (Big 5, etc.) are in fine shape, they were refurbished postwar and put away in reserve. Barrels might be somewhat worn/pitted/frosted but not seriously so. Accuracy will be average (2 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards) but this is with surplus ammunition; handloads could tighten it up to around 2 inches. In other words: the Mosin is a great deal, and worth buying ($109 this weekend on sale at Big 5!) even if just to put away for a "rainy day." Buy a "spam can" of 7.62x54 ammunition online to put away also, it's still pretty cheap.

The design can actually be quite accurate, the most accurate rifle I have is a Finn Model 39 Mosin Nagant (Finland rebarreled them with a heavier, higher quality barrel and restocked also). Well worth picking up one of those, but they are now considerably more expensive than the special at Big 5....

Posted by: leftcoast at November 21, 2012 03:05 PM (aJgsx)

388 377 For future gun threads, I'd like to hear about good concealed-carry holsters, especially for (cough) Persons of Curvature. Also shotgun recommendations.

Posted by: bad cat robot at November 21, 2012 02:33 PM (65lpa)


Now, is this a person of male curvature or female curvature?

Because holster design is different because of body geometry and clothing design.

There are companies that make holsters specifically for women, because of those issues.

There's a website called The Well Armed Woman that has some good info. Early "Women's Holsters" were terrible because they were just men's holsters, and there really are different issues. Women's holsters need to be a different vertical angle, need to account for hip shape, etc.

Sometimes women can get away with a standard Small Of the Back holster.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 03:05 PM (bxiXv)

389 I am sure there are some situations where you might say "gee, I wish I had some smaller lighter bullets left instead of this big stick with the pointy thing I attached to the end.
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 03:01 PM (Z9EHQ)

I own a sweet little Yugo SKS. Who and what would I be shooting at that would require more than 200 or so rounds of 7.62?

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 03:05 PM (vtiE6)

390 Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:03 PM
...skinny me and fat me.

Is that you Vince Gill?

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 03:07 PM (C0alm)

391 MN & WI.
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 03:05 PM (4136b)

There is a club in SW Idaho that has monthly 3 gun matches

good fun

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 03:07 PM (2CiZb)

392 3 Gun: Someday when I have more money.

Class 3: Kind of the same, but I really don't think I have a use for anything but suppressors and maybe an SBR. Ammo is money and I want to spend it at a reasonable rate.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 03:07 PM (bxiXv)

393 my kids started with a DAisy BB gun at age 3 They can't cock it, so you'll do that for hours they also don't understand sights, but have a good time

You'll put your eye out, kid

Posted by: Gene Shepard at November 21, 2012 03:08 PM (FxBCF)

394 There is a club in SW Idaho that has monthly 3 gun matches

good fun
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 03:07 PM (2CiZb)


This was my first year competing, good fun indeed and always a good group.

I'd love to see future posts touch on competition from time to time if Andy is still reading.

Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 03:09 PM (4136b)

395
To the person wondering about a henry with the octagon barrel, go ahead and get one. I have a golden boy in .22lr with aftermarket sights. The original sights are just fine by the way, but the previous owner put on a front sight with a thinner blade and a rear with a deeper notch. Very accurate to fifty yards, at which my eyesight makes the gun more accurate than me. Very well made, with the slickest action of any lever gun I've had or held.
I've cycled the actions on the Big Boys while window shopping, they seem equally smooth, but haven't had the pleasure of shooting one. Mine was money well spent, imho.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at November 21, 2012 03:10 PM (ORvjs)

396 19 Have any of you morons actually done a 80%ARLower build? Was it very difficult?

Yes. No, unless you shoot those little assdetent springs across the kitchen and can't find it. Then you're screwed. There's UTube vids of the process that'll take you through it step by step.

Posted by: blogRot at November 21, 2012 03:10 PM (chysP)

397 Mosin-Nagants are superb rifles with butter-smooth bolts. Yes, they're crude. Yes, they're ugly. But they work, and they shoot. Ask Vasily Zaitzev.

Is rifle. Is shoot. Da?


Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 03:11 PM (celt+)

398 Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:24 PM (pLTLS)

Took an ex-gf shooting. She was a squishy Cali-lib and was anti-gun. Took her trap shooting and she loved it. Got her her own shotty for Christmas that year. Last time I talked to her she still had the shotty (20ga Wingmaster) and had just bought herself a scoped .357 Python.

Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:12 PM (meVGV)

399 Browning shotguns??? A friend of mine had a couple of those. I found that they kicked like a mule compared to same size Remington. But they are fine reliable guns.


Their biggest drawback is cost. They are expensive as hell. A Remington model 1100 is expensive enough and a fine shotgun.

Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 03:13 PM (YdQQY)

400 Get the bx-25 magazine for the Ruger 10/22. Much easier than loading the 10-round clip.

Posted by: Valiant at November 21, 2012 03:13 PM (aFxlY)

401 Class 3 is glorious. Silencers/Suppressors/SBRs/SBSs are all fairly cheap and fun. Full Auto is getting very expensive but you can still get a MAC fairly cheaply.

It does come with its own unique pains in the ass, but it's worth it. The ignorance of the general shooting public surrounding Class 3 is unbelievable though.

Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 03:13 PM (pLTLS)

402 This was my first year competing, good fun indeed and always a good group.

I'd love to see future posts touch on competition from time to time if Andy is still reading.
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 03:09 PM (4136b)

3 gunners are good peeps

what is your max rifle distance?
locally they will stretch it out to 550 yards

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 03:13 PM (2CiZb)

403 What's so goddamn hard to comprehend about the NRA being a GUN RIGHTS organization? They're not a conservative organization, they're not a Republican organization, they're a GUN RIGHTS organization. If Satan himself were up for re-election in Congress, and he had an A+ record on gun rights, the NRA would -and should - give him an A+ rating. Because, y'know, they're a GUN RIGHTS organization.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 03:15 PM (celt+)

404 Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 03:07 PM (C0alm)

Maaayyyybeeee.....

No. I've been accused of looking like Daryle Singletary, though...

He thought so, too, which was both disturbing and funny.

Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:15 PM (meVGV)

405 A Ruger 10/22 was my first rifle as a teenager and I loved that thing to death. It was easy to shoot, fairly accurate out to about 75 yards and you could shoot for hours without spending a lot on ammo. I might just have to get another one for the collection!

Posted by: seb5150 at November 21, 2012 03:16 PM (QGTBZ)

406 I was going to pick up a Mini-14 someday in preference to an AR, mostly on cost considerations. Then SW came out with the MP15 Sport, which can be had for $650. Now the only reason I can see to get a Mini is the pretty wood stock.

I'll be getting that MP15 after Christmas.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 03:21 PM (celt+)

407 Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:15 PM
Well, ya know Vince yo-yos so I thought, maybe.
Isn't Daryle Singeltary part of NRACountry? A lot of the Nashville set are hunters and shooters, which is of course one reasonwhy libs hate country music. That and country singers tend to you know, love the U.S.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 03:21 PM (C0alm)

408 It was easy to shoot, fairly accurate out to about 75 yards and you could shoot for hours without spending a lot on ammo. I might just have to get another one for the collection!


Posted by: seb5150 at November 21, 2012 03:16 PM (QGTBZ)


we've got .22 rifle matches out here that will stretch out to 300 yards

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 03:21 PM (2CiZb)

409 3 gunners are good peeps

what is your max rifle distance?
locally they will stretch it out to 550 yards

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 03:13 PM (2CiZb)


The longest I've ever had to hit in competition was 300 yards. And with a holo sight.

I'd missed one shoot where there was apparently a bonus 500 yd shot.

Do you guys go year round?

Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 03:22 PM (4136b)

410
Hang on a second...

There are people who DON'T own a 10/22?

[Scratches head]

Strange world...

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 03:22 PM (celt+)

411
OK enough of the bullchit. 40 feet = 13.3 yards
15 feet = five yards
Bird shot 4, 5, 6 shot
try it. At this range in most any length barrellwill put all pellets in a 30 inch diametercircle.
using a 12 guage shotgun even 6 shot high brass 2 3/4 "will penetrate most of the way through anything but armored clothing and most of the human body. 4 shot will go all the way through and most shot in about a ten inch diameter circle.
The impact will knock even an armoured intruder on their heels if not theirass.
No follow up necessary if aiming center mass. call an ambulance, your lawyer and then the cops.
.357, .45, buckshot, slugs may shoot through the walls killing your kid, wife,your dog or the neighbors kids, wivesor dogs in an urban setting.
Get as short abarreled gun as is legal in your state one you can swing and shoot around the door jam without stepping out . it WILL clear the hallway, entry door, or living room of any bad guy.

Posted by: concealedkerry or submitt at November 21, 2012 03:24 PM (vXqv3)

412 Do you guys go year round?
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 03:22 PM (4136b)

March to November, plus a New Years Day match

Check out The Ironman Match
Multiday match
300 rifle
300 pistol
300 shotgun including slugs

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 03:25 PM (2CiZb)

413 Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 03:21 PM (C0alm)

Most country singers grew up struggling, then paid their dues in the music world, and didn't forget where they came from; many of them are also veterans. The "country" singers who pitch correct/lip sync bubblegum pop shit tend to not have that background and skew lib; most of them hide it so they don't go the way of the Dixie Chicks. Don't know if Singletary is involved with NRACountry or not, though.

Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:27 PM (meVGV)

414 Hat tip to Steevo and Mauser 757 for recognizing the old 513. You're obviously men who have been around smallbores for a while. The mere fact that no one on this thread mentioned the Winchester 52 goes to show how degraded our nation's culture has become. Honestly fellows, a 10/22 is a fun little rifle, but you'd never take one to a match, would you?

I have a 513 which was given -- given mind you -- to me by a CMP volunteer because I coach juniors and Boy Scouts. It's pre-WWII, and easily outshoots my Kimber 8200 and Anschutz 1903, which are generally taken to be state-match level guns. I know a couple of national-level shooters whose "secret ingredient" specials, with no two parts from the same maker, include Remington actions of the same vintage. Certain 52's will beat it at 100 yds, but it's timeless.

In its day, the BSA "cadet rifle" was the thing to have, but their single-stage triggers had to be set so light for championship-level work that they were a hazard to have on the range. They had a unique Martini action (well, unique now, anyway). I'd like to try one of those out. Alone.

Another surprising little piece is the Mossberg. Yes, they made rifles. I got mine from a Scout range that was closing ($10). I'm not big on re-bluing, but this one had been put away wet. I also made the big investment of screwing the front globe sight back in place (had about 3/16" of wobble -- think the range master would have noticed?), and at 50 feet, it's as good as any of the others.

Millions of Winchester models 66 and 67, with the cocking knob on the bolt, were branded as Sears and Montgomery Ward. Now that is a good starter rifle. But for god's sake, put real iron sights on it. Smallbore targets have gotten smaller! You can't hit tens with those open V's.


Posted by: comatus at November 21, 2012 03:29 PM (qaVK+)

415 Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:27 PM
Well I'm a George Jones, Haggard, Bob Wills type. Yep, they all grew up hard.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 03:30 PM (C0alm)

416 Now the only reason I can see to get a Mini is the pretty wood stock.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 03:21 PM (celt+)


http://preview.tinyurl.com/cu26z2n

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 03:34 PM (bxiXv)

417 Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 03:30 PM (C0alm)

Bob Wills is Still the King! Yeah, I grew up on stuff like that and I'm a huge Waylon fan. The great thing when I was trying to get in the business was getting to meet/hang out with people. The "old guys" have the best stories, too. Because of the media exposure, the artists today can't/don't get away with what they used to back in the day. Like that time Shot Jackson drug a hooker by her pubes down Broadway on Christmas Eve.

Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:35 PM (meVGV)

418
Check out The Ironman Match

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 03:25 PM (2CiZb)


Probably not going to make that this year but aim to someday. One thing this new hobby has convinced me to do is get back into shape for next year.

Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 03:36 PM (4136b)

419 Any Gevarm owners? Voere? Marlin M50?

Posted by: blogRot at November 21, 2012 03:37 PM (chysP)

420 Posted by: concealedkerry or submitt at November 21, 2012 03:24 PM (vXqv3)

Almost everything you said in your comment was factually incorrect speculation. Congrats on the consistency I guess.

For a real world example of what bird shot does (or more accurately, doesn't do), here you go: (SFW)

http://tinyurl.com/c62dga2

The resident of the home called 911 as he heard someone trying to
break in on either the back or side of his house, Fulghum said. He then
grabbed a shotgun and upon seeing the man climb through a window, fired
birdshot pellets that sprayed the man’s face.

“The suspect then fled, but he didn’t make it very far before he collapsed,” Fulghum said.

If he was still able to run away after being shot in the face at close range, imagine if he were armed and shot in the chest through a couple layers of clothing.




Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 03:38 PM (SY2Kh)

421 Millions of Winchester models 66 and 67>>

One of these was my first gun. And for learning to shoot accurately the having to load one bullet at a time is a bonus to focus a young boys mind on aiming.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at November 21, 2012 03:38 PM (tf9Ne)

422 I call bullshit. You're relaying a second or third hand account, aren't you?
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:03 PM (SY2Kh)Bull! at 15 feet "6 shot from a 12 guage 2 3/4 inch high brass load and standard 28 to 30" barrelled gun will blow a hole through a 4 to 6 inch fence post and leave exactly 10" or less hole in a piece of plywood TRY IT!

Posted by: concealedkerry or submitt at November 21, 2012 03:39 PM (vXqv3)

423 Let me add to the noise (I assume) in favor of the 10/22. That is a great gun, and everyone who is interested in shooting should consider getting one. .22s are just very handy to have around, great for practice and for small game. Plus, the bullets are very inexpensive.

Posted by: cranky-d at November 21, 2012 03:44 PM (HDtn6)

424 Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:35 PM
Now that must have been some story. You ever get down to Gruene? I watched Billy Joe Shaver try and start something with some guys in the crowd at the Hall once about 10-12 years ago. It was kinda strange, Billy Joe always seemed so laid back....

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 03:45 PM (C0alm)

425
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 03:38 PM (SY2Kh)
Nothing there about size of shot distance, guage of shot gun length of barrell, oz of shot or powder. I believe all that if he used a 410 at 30 feet and 71/2 shot which some folks consider "bird Shot"
My Bird shot is 4,5,6 shot 2 3/4 or 3"magnum loadsand kills turkeys at 40 yards with a full chokeand with my rabbit gun blows fence posts in half at ten feet, use copper plated and get even more penetration.

Posted by: concealedkerry or submitt at November 21, 2012 03:45 PM (vXqv3)

426 .357, .45, buckshot, slugs may shoot through the walls killing your kid, wife,your dog or the neighbors kids, wivesor dogs in an urban setting.Get as short abarreled gun as is legal in your state one you can swing and shoot around the door jam without stepping out . it WILL clear the hallway, entry door, or living room of any bad guy.
Posted by: concealedkerry or submitt at November 21, 2012 03:24 PM (vXqv3)

This is new. I'm trying to envision that whole 'swing and shoot around the door jam without stepping out' business. So you advocate shooting blindly around corners? Shooting without bothering to first ascertain whoever or whatever's out there? Good luck with that, especially in court.

Birdshot is birdshot. Using a weapon or a load for home defense that is not specifically intended to incapacitate a human being sounds like a bad idea to me, especially given the availability ofspecialized home defense ammo. Glaser rounds loaded in a pistol or revolver, for example, drastically reduce the chances of over-penetrating and hitting innocent people.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 03:50 PM (vtiE6)

427
'I own a Pietta reproduction 1861 Navy Colt .36 revolver. More fun than a human being can stand--and incredibly accurate if you keep loads consistent.'
I have the same in Uberti. and a 1862 police. Such dirty fun.
Currentlylookingat .38 sw WW2 Enfield (webley copy) for my wife.

Posted by: rmark at November 21, 2012 03:50 PM (wgNcw)

428 Naw, I stay out of Texas. My ex-wife is in San Antonio, lol.

That story was told to me by a guy I used to work with. His father had owned a record factory in downtown Nashville. Apparently there was a party that night at the Sho-Bud factory (which was a loft downtown then, in the early 60's). My friend's dad was already at the party, having gone there from his office, and had asked Red Foley to pick up my friend (then 8 years old) and his brother (10) since he was going past their house anyway. Red had Shot in the car and they stopped at a liquor store after they had picked the boys up. As they were getting ready to leave, a hooker comes walking up and propositions Shot Jackson. Shot told her he'd have to see what she had first, so she lifted up her skirt, revealing that she a) had no panties on and b) was "incredibly bushy" (my friend's words). Shot reached out the window, grabbed a handful of hair and said, "If you can keep up, I'll buy some. Let's go Red!"

Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:56 PM (meVGV)

429 Bull! at 15 feet "6 shot from a 12 guage 2 3/4 inch high brass load and
standard 28 to 30" barrelled gun will blow a hole through a 4 to 6 inch
fence post and leave exactly 10" or less hole in a piece of plywood TRY
IT!


You try it. I have plenty of experience shooting things with shotguns. The spread is nowhere near 10 inches at 15 feet. 6 inches of penetration through solid wood? No.

And a 28-30" barrel for a home defense shotgun? If all you have is your duck gun it's better than nothing, but most home defense shotguns use a 18-20" barrel.

The "birdshot is good for self defense" myth needs to die. It's been tested over and over again- it just doesn't provide enough penetration.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 04:01 PM (SY2Kh)

430 My Bird shot is 4,5,6 shot 2 3/4 or 3"magnum loadsand kills turkeys at
40 yards with a full chokeand with my rabbit gun blows fence posts in
half at ten feet, use copper plated and get even more penetration.


Keep the #6 shot for 12 pound birds. That's what it's made for- not 200 pound, clothed attackers.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 04:06 PM (SY2Kh)

431 Yes, by all means if your servant will be carrying your ammo then go 7.62 all the way

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:07 PM (XDC0v)

432 #422 Most home defense shottys have a 18" barrel. Affects dispersion a great deal

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:09 PM (XDC0v)

433 For home defense, why not go with something like the Taurus Judge and then load up some .410 shotshells? Seems reasonable. You don't have to worry about a long barrel in close quarters, and you really don't have to worry about aiming to much if you're using .410 in a 3" barrel.

If you want to go with pure lethality, then go with something chambered in .22lr. the extremely low recoil, and fact that even most handguns can handle 10+ rounds means you've got a pretty good chance of actually hitting your target - in the head.

Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 04:17 PM (mfWu+)

434
Actually, a full choke duck gun would be better for birdshot, tight pattern at close range - only about a 3" spread at 5 yards, about the distance across a room in a home, according to a chart I found online.
Personally for the home I think a hi capacity 9mm pistolis the best trade off - more potent than something smaller, less recoil and more capacity than something bigger (cheaper ammo helps too). Leaves a hand free to turn on lights, open or close doors, work the remote while watching football on TV

Posted by: rmark at November 21, 2012 04:18 PM (wgNcw)

435 The only thing that affects dispersion is choke. A full choke 16" will pattern the same as a full choke 32"

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 04:19 PM (C0alm)

436 I'd take the mini-14 over AR an day of the week. It's a lot more solid and reliable than a stock AR. It doesn't have as many aftermarket gadgets, but it will put rounds on target just as accurately, and more reliably.

----------So some questions:When learning to shoot a handgun, what would you start
with?When looking for a concealed carry weapon, what do you look
for?What kind of accuracy (still on a handgun) is good?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (8y9MW)------------

Start with a .22--Semi-auto or wheelgun doesn't really matter. (You can use a .38 or 9mm without experiencing a lot in the way of recoil, the ammo is just a lot more expensive.)
The best concealed weapon is one that you'll actually carry. Small and light, without sharp edges, and without an exposed hammer. Because there's not much inertia in such a weapon, you want a light load. I would advise a 9mm or .40 in a semi-auto and .38 in a revolver. (I'm currently in lust with the Ruger LCR, but this is YMMV territory.)
The difference in accuracy in weapons is small enough that you don't need to worry about it much. You're by far the greatest variable. Learn the fundamentals by someone who knows what they're doing, and practice, practice, practice.

Posted by: Luke at November 21, 2012 04:20 PM (UE8ht)

437 actually hitting your target - in the head.

Aaaaand...M757 earns the coveted "Heh."

Posted by: comatus at November 21, 2012 04:21 PM (qaVK+)

438 The mini-14 was a stopgap measure until the AR arose. If it was more solid and reliable you'd see it in the hands of people whose lives depend onit.

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:23 PM (XDC0v)

439 432 agreed my gun is a winchester model 12 cut down to 21 inches due to a little error in muddy cornfields. Holds nine shells and will fire as fast as I can pump it, hold trigger down and slam away, each round loads into the firing pin and ejects. Loaded with # 4 copper plated 2 3/4 will do everything I said above at 15 ' which is as about far as I can shoot INSIDE my home. If we are talking OUTSIDE defense I will use something else.
I have done everything I said above using a longer barreled pheasant gun with 4, 5, 6 shot, 4 is my preferred load for pheasants, turkeys and home defense. Copper plated 4's as long a shell as the gun allows. 3 inch or 3 1/2 for turkeys 3 or 2 3/4 for pheasants .

Posted by: ConcealedKerry or SubMitt at November 21, 2012 04:25 PM (vXqv3)

440 Now the only reason I can see to get a Mini is the pretty wood stock.



Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 03:21 PM (celt+)



http://preview.tinyurl.com/cu26z2n

----------------

OMG, that's gorgeous.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 04:25 PM (celt+)

441 Yes, by all means if your servant will be carrying your ammo then go 7.62 all the way
Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:07 PM (XDC0v)

I have one of those Chinese-type chest pouch belts I use for SKS stripper clips, the weight well-distributed, and can carry 200 rounds without any trouble. A servant or two would be nice, though, if only to beat the bushes and flush out the game.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 04:26 PM (vtiE6)

442 428 posts and nobody mentioned the CZ? They are insanely accurate .22s for the price, which alas is now way more than the under $300 I paid for mine.

I'd rather hit slow than miss fast.

Posted by: MarkD at November 21, 2012 04:27 PM (iYBP2)

443 For home defense, why not go with something like the Taurus Judge and then load up some .410 shotshells? Seems reasonable.

If you're defending your home against a zombie rabbit invasion, that would be a good choice.

The effectiveness of .410 shotshells out of a short revolver barrel is suspect. I've only seen limited testing of the new .410 defense rounds designed for guns like the Judge, but I consider the effectiveness to be questionable.

I'd rather go with the tried and proven .45LC for defense, and leave the .410 for snakes and other small varmints.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 04:30 PM (SY2Kh)

444 The assertion about barrel length and dispersion is incorrect: see "library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_30/.../JFS301850137.pdf"

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:30 PM (XDC0v)

445 That'sa paperentitled: "Pellet Patterns Fired by Sawed-Off Shotguns"

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:33 PM (XDC0v)

446 Luke: That mini-14 is not as accurate as a floated barrel AR.

AR-15 clones are ruling high-power competition for a reason. You can make a competition AR for under 2k. Making a .308 M-14 clone into a good comp gun is a 45k project ... and it can all be undone if the M-14's fore stock hits something.

That poor mini-14 isn't even considered as a beginner's rifle.

( note, AR-10 clones in .308 and .260 are starting to make inroads now that more options are available for them )


Yes, the later mini-14s are good rifles. But they aren't in the AR's league for competition.

Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 04:34 PM (wYVte)

447 Doesn't sound like you know much about zombie rabbits, it actually takes a Holy Hand Grenade to put them down.

Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 04:34 PM (mfWu+)

448 Sorry, "4 or 5k project" ... stupid fingers.

Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 04:35 PM (wYVte)

449 Doesn't sound like you know much about zombie rabbits, it actually takes a Holy Hand Grenade to put them down.

Or a boat paddle.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 04:37 PM (SY2Kh)

450 That paddle didn't work for Carter. He's been a slow zombie ever since.

Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 04:38 PM (wYVte)

451 I endorse Kristophr's message

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:39 PM (XDC0v)

452 See, I just got here and I didn't even get to #10 before someone called the 10/22 inaccurate. Could be the ammo you're feeding it. Mine loves stingers. Consistantly dead centering hanging black walnuts at35-40 yards, free hand accurate enough for ya? You can tell when you dead center on cause the walnut explodes in a pretty green ball of fluff.
Had mine since 76. The number of bunnies and squirrels that that sweet thing ha put on the table, yum.

Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 04:40 PM (BfZ1r)

453 428 posts and nobody mentioned the CZ? They are insanely accurate .22s
for the price, which alas is now way more than the under $300 I paid for
mine.


Yeah, I remember when they were first introduced to the US. The (initially) low price made people question the quality until people actually bought them and discovered they were very good guns.

Wish I bought one back when they were cheap.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 04:40 PM (SY2Kh)

454 I'd rather go with the tried and proven .45LC for defense, and leave the .410 for snakes and other small varmints.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 04:30 PM (SY2Kh)

From what I've read, the .410 fired from a Judge is very good for very close range--less than 5 yards. The problem with the Judge (and presumably the new SW Governor) is that the .45 LC is in too long a cylinder and has to 'jump' the extra distance occupied by the .410 shell. As a result, even the .45 LC (a great caliber, btw) is inaccurate even at short distances.

This is essentially Internet heresay since I personally don't own a Judge because I don't like the hybridization of calibers for a single pistol. Give me a .410 or give me a .45 LC. Don't try to give me both. Yes, I know, a .357 revolver can accommodate a .38 Spl. cartridge. A .44 mag can shoot .44 Spl. That isn't what I'm talking about.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 04:40 PM (vtiE6)

455 teej still says go K-State:

Yes, .22 lr accuracy is VERY ammo dependent.

International and NRA small bore competitors almost all use Anschutz rifles, with a few poor folks using severely tricked up 10-22s.

But their ammo choices are all dependent on testing more than anything else. The top competitors will find a brand their rifle likes, and then buy several bricks of it, and weigh to the nearest .001 grams and sort by weight the individual rounds.

The outliers are given away, and the mass of rounds in the middle of the cartridge weight bell curve are the ones used.

Most folks have poor results with high velocity hollowpoints, as they tend to have a lot of fliers due to variable bullet weight. If your rifle likes them, though, enjoy.

Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 04:46 PM (wYVte)

456 I think if a novice came a long and read an internet gun discussion, the conclusion they would have to draw is that guns were mysterious, mystical things that simultaneously could hold many contradictory qualities - or, that a lot of people think they know more than they do and it's impossible to tell who's who by reading the discussion (or listening to Gun Counter Guy, which may be even worse).

Like politics, there's no authority that *everybody* trusts and can agree on.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 04:49 PM (bxiXv)

457 This is essentially Internet heresay since I personally don't own a
Judge because I don't like the hybridization of calibers for a single
pistol. Give me a .410 or give me a .45 LC. Don't try to give me both.
Yes, I know, a .357 revolver can accommodate a .38 Spl. cartridge. A .44
mag can shoot .44 Spl. That isn't what I'm talking about.


I know what you mean. A gun that offers half-assed performance with two different calibers doesn't appeal to me.

I can see the appeal as a snake gun, but otherwise I'm surprised that the Judge was so popular. Too big and heavy for concealed carry, not particularly accurate with bullets and not very powerful with shot shells.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 04:50 PM (SY2Kh)

458 Consistantly dead centering hanging black walnuts at35-40 yards, free hand accurate enough for ya?

Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 04:40 PM (BfZ1r)


Imma just be Mr. Grumpy and imagine those bullets winging away at a 15- or 20-degree up-angle, into the distance...

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 04:51 PM (bxiXv)

459 I can see the appeal as a snake gun, but otherwise I'm surprised that the Judge was so popular.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 04:50 PM (SY2Kh)


I don't know why Twilight was so popular, but there you are.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 04:52 PM (bxiXv)

460 #456 Let me solve that problem for ya...

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:55 PM (XDC0v)

461 Thanks for the input Kristophr. Yup, my baby loves the stingers. Accuracy with I think it was Remington yellow jackets was okay but not quite as good as the stingers. The yellow jackets would get a feed jam once in a while too. Cone shaped bullet with a rim on it and the rim would catch.
Stingers? Never a jam and even better accuracy. More $ but worth it.

Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 05:00 PM (K4AdI)

462 to 21 inches due to a little error in muddy cornfields. Holds nine shells seven shells , no can work, answer phone and type at same time. time to quit for: Happy Thanksgiving all!

Posted by: ConcealedKerry or SubMitt at November 21, 2012 05:04 PM (g3thj)

463 Yep, auto-loader issue there. If yer auto-loader likes Stingers, you may have to just surrender to its personal taste.

You may want to try buying a box of Eley TENEX, or Remington Club Extra ( also made by Eley ). If they will feed in your beast, you might find your groups tightening up.



Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 05:04 PM (wYVte)

464 The mini-14 was a stopgap measure until the AR
arose.

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:23 PM (XDC0v)
--------------------------Huh? The AR-15 was being used in Vietnam four years before the Mini-14 was even designed.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 05:05 PM (celt+)

465 Well you be Mr grumpy Merovign. We knew where we were at. Middle of huge hardwood forest, private, with steep forested hill behind the target. Hollowpoint bullets that are going to either come apart or be so deformed that they aren't going far. Really no different than shooting up at a squirrel on a limb. Always go for head shots on the tree rats too.
Feel better, booosss?

Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 05:07 PM (GX2fm)

466 Taro: I think he got confused with the M-14.

Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 05:08 PM (wYVte)

467 I think the Gun Counter Guy may be the worst person ever as he'll typically push whatever firearm the store can get the highest margins on w/o listening to the wants/needs of the customer.

One of my favorite rounds is the .243win. Soft recoil, good on deer out to 250 yards with a 100grain bullet, great on coyotes and prairie dogs with something lighter. It is not a gun I would push into the hands of an inexperienced hunter who wants something for deer hunting. However, Gun Counter Guy typically highly recommends the .243win for youth hunters (and women) because of the light recoil.

It would be better to get the kid started on a .25-06, .257Roberts, 7mm-08, or any number of other low recoil rounds that can throw 120-140grain bullets in the 3000fps range. The .243 at 200+ yards is not a great cartridge for a deer unless its standing perfectly broadside.

Gun Counter Guy doesn't take into account women's hands when recommending conceal carry pistols. Racking the slide can be difficult for them. Gun Counter Guy almost always seems to know that women shouldn't handle anything larger than a .380.

Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 05:10 PM (mfWu+)

468 Like politics, there's no authority that *everybody* trusts and can agree on.
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 04:49 PM (bxiXv)

It depends on the topic, really. If you're talking schools of thought, I trust those sourcing Elmer Keith if the topic is bullets and ballistics. The 1911? Jeff Cooper, since the 1911 seems to have been his life's obsession. Point shooting? Applegate.And so on. There are authorities, some living. It's just a matter of wading through the nonsense to find the good stuff, and you can usually tell the good, authoritative stuffwhen you see it.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 05:11 PM (vtiE6)

469 Merovgn: a .22 lr bullet fired at a squirrel is probably not going to do more than bruise if it hits someone after falling downwards at terminal velocity. Same for shotgun shot ... too light to cause a lot of harm coming down.

If he was shooting at said squirrels with a centerfire rifle, then that would be different. A .308 or .311 bullet dropping at terminal velocity has the same foot pounds as a .32 pistol round, and can kill.

People get killed by celebratory fire in the mideast all the time for exactly that reason.

Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 05:15 PM (wYVte)

470 Why cannot my SCHEELS store get a SW Shield 40 cal. I have been second on their list since May and they say they dont get any in. Sure they dont prolly going to all their friends and big spending pals.

Posted by: ConcealedKerry or SubMitt at November 21, 2012 05:15 PM (g3thj)

471 this thread dead?

just got back from the gym
ha! heathly and shit!

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 05:16 PM (2CiZb)

472 Elmer Keith? Jeff Cooper? Oh. Yeah.

Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 05:17 PM (RYVE/)

473 Probably not going to make that this year but aim to someday. One thing this new hobby has convinced me to do is get back into shape for next year.
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 03:36 PM (4136b)

we've got COF's that cover like 100 yards, true running and gunning

3 gun is fun, but kinda hard

Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 05:19 PM (2CiZb)

474 I hate having pretty much missed this thread. Things I gotta do though. Gonna be back later and read the whole thing. Sure I'll learn something.
Squeeze it off between the heart beats boys.

Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 05:21 PM (RYVE/)

475 Gun Counter Guy ....
Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 05:10 PM (mfWu+)


sometimes the guys and gals on both side of the counter are dumb, .....


Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 05:23 PM (2CiZb)

476 I'm actually hunting now. Might as well be a moron killing time surfing the net while I'm not shooting a white tail. Someday a robot will shoot the game for me. Or a dog with a freakin laser beam attached to its head. Until then I'll have to settle for porn and stock quotes.

Posted by: Rusty at November 21, 2012 05:26 PM (2SXYw)

477
If he was shooting at said squirrels with a
centerfire rifle, then that would be different. A .308 or .311 bullet
dropping at terminal velocity has the same foot pounds as a .32 pistol
round, and can kill.

People get killed by celebratory fire in the mideast all the time for exactly that reason.


Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 05:15 PM (wYVte)

---------------Mythbusters covered this. Mostly busted. Falling rifle rounds could give you a nasty bump on the head, but that's it. The (very few) fatalities involved (they could find only one) were from bullets that didn't go straight up, but in an arcing trajectory, and retained their stability (still spinning). Once they tumble, they're losing energy fast.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 05:28 PM (celt+)

478 Elmer Keith?
Met him at the 78 or 79 SHOT Show in KC, MO. He was a nice enough guy. Never could get over his hatred of Jack O'Connor. Keith tried to get under Jack's skin whenever he could, sometimes mailing letters to him directly. I like ig bullets too, but calling the .270 "an adequate coyote rifle" was alittle over the top.

Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 05:33 PM (C0alm)

479 #464 I meant when the AR arose as a popular civilian rifle. That was decades later and if that hadn't been so I'm not sure why the mini-14 would ever have amounted to much

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 05:40 PM (XDC0v)

480 Elmer Keith if the topic is bullets and ballistics.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 05:11 PM (vtiE6)


He was a very bright guy. One or two things may have happened since he died in 1984. The basic math hasn't changed but knowledge of materials and aerodynamics has.

469 Merovgn: a .22 lr bullet fired at a squirrel is probably not going to do more than bruise if it hits someone after falling downwards at terminal velocity.

Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 05:15 PM (wYVte)


If it's fired at a low angle (like at a branch from 40 yards), it's not coming down at terminal velocity, it's coming from the side at ballistic velocity. Maybe more than a mile.

If you have a backstop (tall hill) or you know your target and what's behind it (for a couple of miles), that's fine.

I have never heard of a case of death from vertically dropping non-ballistic .30 projectiles, but a lot of that celebratory fire is at an angle and comes down ballistically.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 05:42 PM (bxiXv)

481 "Never could get over his hatred of Jack O'Connor."

Some of those 'gun world' resentments and rivalries strike me as particularly childish, especially when coming from otherwise notable and honorablemen. For example, Rex Applegate, Fairbairn and Sykes point-shooting disciple,loathed Jeff Cooper and Cooper's 'modern technique'.The feeling seems to have been mutual on Cooper's part.

I always admired Agent Jelly Bryce, the famous FBI gunfighter and one of the fastest draws and best handgun shots who ever lived. He just did it his way and came home alive every night. Problems arose when the FBI trained its agents to Bryce's style, which couldn't really be replicated.

Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 05:47 PM (vtiE6)

482 It would be better to get the kid started on a .25-06, .257Roberts,
7mm-08, or any number of other low recoil rounds that can throw
120-140grain bullets in the 3000fps range. The .243 at 200+ yards is not
a great cartridge for a deer unless its standing perfectly broadside.


Unless you're hunting wide open country in Montana or something, the vast majority of deer are taken inside of 150 yards. A new hunter isn't likely to be taking 250+ yard shots anyways.

Besides, there's not that much difference between .25-06, .257 Roberts and the .243 Win in terms of velocity and muzzle energy.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 05:51 PM (SY2Kh)

483 velocity and muzzle energy isn't everything. Retained energy and wind drift are also very important.

The longer and heavier bullets that the .257 Roberts, .25-06, and 7mm-08 can throw means a better BC, leading to better retained energy downrange - more importantly, they will drift less in higher winds so you don't have to dope for wind as much (if at all).

Since many novice hunters are less likely to know the limitations of their rifle and their abilities, giving them a mild cartridge that can overcome those limitations is important.

As I said thought, I love the .243, it was my first rifle (I grew up on a .30-06 but it wasn't mine).

As for the 150yd shot - its not just Montana. Try hunting anywhere in Kansas west of Manhattan. The land is wide open and there is next to no cover. Even most of eastern Kansas consists of wide open fields.

Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 06:34 PM (mfWu+)

484 I walked into a Walmart about 20 tears ago and wandered back to sporting goods to have a snoop. As I scanned the gun rack and spied a Ruger 10-22 International with laminated stock and stainless steel. It had a red sticker on the price tag but I couldn't see the Price. A red sticker usually means something has been marked down. I asked the clerk what the price was. He said it was a good bargain, it was $149.00 dollars. I said "Are you sure"? "Yep" he says "that's what it is". Apparently when an item has been in the store for a long time they begin to mark it down to get rid of it! I think at the time the Ruger went for about $350. Well you can guess what happened next, the credit card took a hit on it's already depleted balance and I grabbed the Ruger. I put a 3X9 silver scope on it and made it into my squirrel rifle. I play a game with the squirrels, I promise I will only headshoot them if they don't hide too well. I use "Green Tag". I take them home, plunk them into the slow cooker with some cream of mushroom soup and chunks of onion, steam some rice and have a great autumn meal. Dark beer to wash it down. Thank you Walmart, thank you Bill Ruger, thank you Mr. Squirrel and thank you God!

Posted by: Billy Dixon at November 21, 2012 06:42 PM (ZHBVn)

485 @Kristophr 446
I think you missed my point. My argument was that a stock mini-14 is better than a stock AR-15.
Does the AR-15 have more aftermarket options? Sure, and I noted that.
Most people don't have much use for a competition rifle (or tactical rails, for that matter).
Does it have variants in different calibers? Yes, but that's an AR-15 variant, not an AR-15. (Likely the AR-10, LAR-8 or SR-25 for those watching the discussion.)
If I have to pull a mini-14 or an AR-15 straight out of the box and use it, I'm using the mini-14. It'll work better, and last longer, with fewer problems along the way.

(IMO) if you're going to do competition, buy a match-grade M1 Garand for about the same price as a match-grade AR-15. Longer barrel, better round, and less that can go wrong.
If you're just going for accuracy at range, a heavy-barrel bolt action rifle can be bought and tweaked for around a grand. (Well, before you start shopping for scopes, anyway. But the same applies to your examples and the Garand example.)

Of course, I'm biased. I carried a M16A2 for four years, and was a marksmanship coach for part of it. I hate the thing, and all its cousins. It's flimsy, the gas system makes an unholy mess, and the spring-loaded ejector is a problem waiting to happen.

Posted by: Luke at November 21, 2012 07:34 PM (UE8ht)

486 I just made several thousand 'Starling' black birds shut up and zip-it, deposit their fertalizer on our land, and fly fast and far away from our house - with just one 3 cent shot of a .22 gun - LOL & love country living!

Posted by: MoJoTee at November 21, 2012 07:54 PM (e1kfW)

487 A2 was a long time ago

Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 08:11 PM (XDC0v)

488 I have a Marlin Model 60 that is a tack driver at 25 yards. I want a Model 795 to turn into an Appleseed gun. Too much has to be done to the Ruger if you look at all the forums, everything from triggers to installing sling swivels (which the Marlin has already). The only thing I don't like about the 795 is the synthetic stock. I'm a wood and blued metal sort of guy.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at November 21, 2012 08:26 PM (yh0zB)

489 W
T
F

No fishing? Fishing is the sport gentlemen who can perch precariously on the bow of a boat and urinate for minutes on end because that case of beer isn't making it back to the truck.

Posted by: Wodun at November 21, 2012 09:54 PM (PEpU8)

490 The 10-22 is a good choice as a favorite gun. Ruger's sold zillions of them. Like most Ruger products, the 10-22 is an affordable, serviceable gun that's fun to shoot. There are plenty of companies - like Volquartsen, Tactical Solutions, etc. - that sell parts to turn a box-stock 10-22 into a custom, tack-driving shootin' machine.

I just bought a Magnum Research MLR-1722 rifle which is based on the 10-22. It has a carbon fiber barrel, a polymer thumbhole stock, and lots of other cool features. It weighs about 4.5 pounds, and handles like a dream.

Posted by: Raoul Duke at November 22, 2012 02:42 AM (W+QzX)

491 i have a Kimber Pro Carry II, a walther PPK, a remington 710, a Remington 870 Wingmaster, a Marlin .375, 2 ithaca .22 that was given to me by my father as kid. i have a .50 cal black powder rifle. i had a glock 23 in .40 SW but someone was kind enough to remove it from my truck without my knowledge.


Posted by: nick at November 22, 2012 03:17 AM (jfe0a)

492 Okay, so I'm from Australia, where I CAN'T own an autoloading rifle (one of the previous conservative govt's few real blunders), but I would still choose a bolt action any day. As for the kids - IMO they should be able (and know) to flip the bolt handle and pull it back to render the firearm incapable of discharge by the time they're five.

Posted by: perturbed at November 22, 2012 04:41 AM (9EtrG)

493 I know this is an old thread now but I didn't see it at time. This is for all who want advice on starting. . .
I just flew out to Sig Sauer Academy in New Hampshire. You pay for the class, use their guns.
I took 101 Intro to handguns. You learn - 8 hour class. Last hour is shooting.
Next day I took 102 - intro to defensive handgun. You take this class you will be comfortable shooting. You will learn to clean also. You will shoot around 300 rounds. 8 hour class. You will eventually work from holster and ranges out to 25 yards - with timed exercises shooting pop of plates in competition with your firing line neighbor.
You get to pick from what ever gun they make. In 102 you buy the ammo, but its pretty cheap. You can bring your own gun if you want.
They give you 20% discount on guns at proshop. I got a P229 Elite. (Beavertail, short reset trigger and E2 grip for my small racoon hands.)
They also teach rifle and shotgun. Sig Sauer Academy - google it.

Posted by: simpleton at November 22, 2012 12:04 PM (za3QZ)

494 I got here late too. This is going to be a great thread that I will look forward to weekly.

I see alot of the posters here have those AR-15 type rifles. I don't have one yet, and went the 7.62 x 39mm route (AK's and SKS's) for mid range and bolt action guns for long range work (K-31, various 8 mm mausers and various Mosins).

I have to say for old surplus military rifles those Swiss K-31's , Iranian contract 98/29 Mausers, and Finn Mosins are more accurate than I will ever hope to be.

For pistols, I have really been getting into the CZ 82's (9 x 18 mm) for concealed carry. But for fun at the range, the AK pistols and PPS-43's (old tanker sub-machine gun converted to a semi auto pistol) can't be beat.

I love the .22's also. Picked up a Polish wz-78 bolt action .22 training rifle. Very well built and fun to shoot.



Posted by: Judge Roy Bean at November 22, 2012 07:57 PM (Sedwk)






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Wonkette Announces "Morning Zoo" Format
John Kerry's "Plan" Causes Surrender of Moqtada al-Sadr's Militia
World Muslim Leaders Apologize for Nick Berg's Beheading
Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree
Milestone: Oliver Willis Posts 400th "Fake News Article" Referencing Britney Spears
Liberal Economists Rue a "New Decade of Greed"
Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility
Intelligence Officials Eye Blogs for Tips
They Done Found Us Out, Cletus: Intrepid Internet Detective Figures Out Our Master Plan
Shock: Josh Marshall Almost Mentions Sarin Discovery in Iraq
Leather-Clad Biker Freaks Terrorize Australian Town
When Clinton Was President, Torture Was Cool
What Wonkette Means When She Explains What Tina Brown Means
Wonkette's Stand-Up Act
Wankette HQ Gay-Rumors Du Jour
Here's What's Bugging Me: Goose and Slider
My Own Micah Wright Style Confession of Dishonesty
Outraged "Conservatives" React to the FMA
An On-Line Impression of Dennis Miller Having Sex with a Kodiak Bear
The Story the Rightwing Media Refuses to Report!
Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)
News/Chat