Everyone Has A Conscientious Objection To Obamacare

OK, so this has been brewing for a while now.

Two questions.

1) Does the Catholic church think it should have the sole legal protection from this regulation over this matter of conscience?

Because it seems to me that there may actually be a lot of other employers not officially connected to the Catholic church who feel the same way about being forced to supply abortifacients to their employees.

As well as being forced to provide something that they may not be able to afford, to people who may not even want or need it. The violations of freedom intrinsic to this bad law are many and complex. They apply to everyone, not just Catholics or even religious folk in general. And certainly the financial freedom of religious people is just as imperiled as everyone else's, even if they aren't concentrating on that right now.

We're getting outraged over one victim of one regulation inside a byzantine mess that needs to be thrown away in its entirety.

2) Did Catholic organizations support Obamacare because they either assumed or were told that they would get an exception based on their religious beliefs?

Because if that is true, then essentially they agreed to support an infringement on others' freedoms just so long as their own would be preserved. How did they think that would eventually work out?

Now, don't get me wrong; of course I am delighted that Catholics are angry with the Obama administration.

However, I'm not exactly freaking out that they didn't get what they bargained for, after they* gleefully endorsed curtailing your and my freedoms.

*The 'They' are the large Catholic organizations as well as the church hierarchy who originally overwhelmingly supported HCR. Not you, members of the laity who read this site.

Posted by: LauraW. at 05:10 PM



Comments

1 I think it's pretty clear they were expecting to get a golden waiver of their own...and now are livid that they are being treated like everyone else.

Posted by: Jason at February 07, 2012 04:46 PM (6VB4r)

2 I'd say the answer to your first question is no, they would assume any organization that had a conscience objection to this mandate/regulation would also be able to abstain.

As to the second question I'd say that a vast majority of upper-tier Catholics in America have been co-opted by the social justice idea and sold the unborn down the river to accomplish their left-leaning social goals. I don't have proof of that of course, but it's my feeling based on remembering the exhaustive arguments for Obamacare and the thinking behind the Stupak Amendment attachment, which was the fig-leaf purported Catholics wanted.

Posted by: Austin in TX at February 07, 2012 04:48 PM (F9Hpt)

3 I think the Church is caught between to objectives, 1. Providing care to those who need it and 2. Exercising the core tenets of their beliefs.

It doesn't help that much of the Church leadership is of a socialist bent anyway, with the exception of life and the dignity of the human being. Conservatives in the American political sense of the word are few and far between in the Church hierarchy.

I think this socialist tendency blinded the Church to the dangers inherent in Obamacare, because they just saw a big pile of money to help their struggling hospitals.


Posted by: Iblis at February 07, 2012 04:53 PM (9221z)

4 It never ceases to amaze me how "good" Catholics can vote time and time again for Democrats when time and time again Democrats enact bills that are entirely contray to Catholicteaching. You'd think that at some point they'd either admit they don't believe in the church's teachings or that they can't be a modern liberal (i.e.,a socialist) anymore.

Posted by: So Cal Jim at February 07, 2012 04:56 PM (NG7MG)

5
In!

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:11 PM (sqkOB)

6 Sorry- Ace and I simul-posted earlier so I took this down.

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 05:13 PM (Lzlif)

7 1st...wow....and lauraw, I agree. point well taken!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: jmb at February 07, 2012 05:13 PM (63vbW)

8
This comment thread is h-h-h-h-h-aunted by a g-g-g-g-gh-ghost.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:14 PM (sqkOB)

9 Bingo.

They'll let the government take away economic freedom because the government says they're doing it for the poor or for social justice, as if taking away that freedom isn't a primary cause of poverty and suffering, and them act _so surprised_ when it turns out they're on the list too.

Posted by: Abdominal Snowman at February 07, 2012 05:14 PM (5sjB7)

10 sob...not 1st. but still, lauraw...great point

Posted by: jmb at February 07, 2012 05:15 PM (63vbW)

11 Ox.
Gored.

Posted by: 13times at February 07, 2012 05:17 PM (h6XiD)

12 I have a friend who is a Catholic and vehemently opposed to abortion. She is also a liberal and voted for Barry. I do not understand.

Posted by: huerfano at February 07, 2012 05:18 PM (lXi+d)

13
Ever wonder why modern Catholicism is so popular?

Because it's easy. It's Christianity for lazy people. You don't have to do nuthin.

You attend Mass once in a while, throw a few dollars in the basket, and God and the priest take care of everything else.

That's why Catholics vote for Democrats, too. The Democrats do all that charitable work for them. Understand? To a typical Catlick, the Democrats are doing the Lord's work.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:18 PM (sqkOB)

14 I'm shocked!

Posted by: Martin Niemöller at February 07, 2012 05:18 PM (QKKT0)

15 The Catholic hierarchy has long been co-opted by progressives seeking "social justice." I say that with regret rather than scorn, as a Catholic (OK, scorn for the progressives, but not for the Church).

I remember when there was an anniversary event for the IHM nuns at my local parish in Baltimore Co., MD. The guest speaker was Sen. Mikulski. Shit you not. It's that bad around here. The nuns invited a rapidly pro-infanticide homosexual to give a speech.

Posted by: shillelagh at February 07, 2012 05:20 PM (hRzu2)

16 Laura,

I share your concerns. I continue to see Catholic priests that support socialism all over the world. They believe that they must get the government to spend money on their projects, but when the government bites them in the ass, they cry fowl.

Same thing for the Salvation Army, which I think does a great job, but when it came to building a homeless shelter in my city, they were all for it and anyone that opposed them wasn't a Christian.

Of course, when you give something away, you find folks who will take it. We never had a homeless problem before we built a shelter, now it is full and guess what? They want to expand.

I am glad the Catholics realized that they have been had, but the horse is out of the barn now.

Are they just stupid? They were told this would happen and that the Obama people could not be trusted, but they pushed ahead any way.

So should we say, fuck em?
They like everyone else must pay the price for their bad decisions.

Take it like a man, er priest!

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo-intellectual at February 07, 2012 05:20 PM (hXJOG)

17
Your local Catholic parish: Just put the money in the basket and leave the rest to us.

Government: Just pay your taxes and leave the rest to us.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:21 PM (sqkOB)

18
The Government: Just pay your taxes and we'll take of the poor and the sick.

Your Catholic church: ...

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:22 PM (sqkOB)

19 Did Catholic organizations support Obamacare because they either assumed or were told that they would get an exception based on their religious beliefs?


Why wouldn't they? Everyone else that supported it got one.

Posted by: © Sponge at February 07, 2012 05:22 PM (UK9cE)

20 Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:18 PM (sqkOB)

Not just Catholics either, many other denominations are the same way.

Except for the Pentecostal types (Iaffectionately call them snake handlers), they usually seem pretty solid.

Posted by: ErikW at February 07, 2012 05:23 PM (7uPGt)

21 Not sure what you people are bitching about, in Washington State there is a requirement that all health insurance covers PKU, Phenylketonuria, which is a disease related to Maple Syrup Urine disease. Which affects about 1 in 15,000 people.

I kid you not.

Posted by: AndrewsDad at February 07, 2012 05:24 PM (C2//T)

22
God Made Pentecostals #1

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:24 PM (sqkOB)

23 I don't think they thought it would be a Catholic-only exemption. I think they thought there would be a religious exemption.

Which, to be fair, there always has been in the past.

Posted by: Benson at February 07, 2012 05:24 PM (qzcNU)

24 Same thing for the Salvation Army, which I think does a great job, but
when it came to building a homeless shelter in my city, they were all
for it and anyone that opposed them wasn't a Christian.

Of
course, when you give something away, you find folks who will take it.
We never had a homeless problem before we built a shelter, now it is
full and guess what? They want to expand.


In my hometown the Salvation Army has been the problem. They got their sweet government money then proceeded to bus in the unwashed from New York, New Jersey and Philly. Now we have a huge problem with crime, drugs, homeless and gangs. I hate them with a white hot rage.

Posted by: mpfs at February 07, 2012 05:24 PM (iYbLN)

25
Catholic Church Hypocrisy: Obamacare


The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=201281

The Truth About The Catholic Healthcare Brouhaha
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets


http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=201366

Seems like you and denninger are headed in a similar direction.


Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 05:25 PM (oZfic)

26 Father Bruce, does this mean I'll have to pay for my hemorrhoid medicine?

Posted by: Johnny, the Altar Boy at February 07, 2012 05:25 PM (hXJOG)

27 You would think the Church (big C) would have learned a few lessons from their prior involvements and experiences wielding political power but you'd be wrong about that.
Which has to be personally frustrating to millions of Catholics.. .when actions are inconsistent with core beliefs and values it causes stress.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at February 07, 2012 05:25 PM (WvXvd)

28 So what you're basically saying is they thought they had bought an indulgence from the Obama administration?

Somewhere Martin Luther is pointing and laughing.

Posted by: Andy at February 07, 2012 05:25 PM (5Rurq)

29 Not just Catholics either, many other denominations are the same way.

Indeed. What passes for the Church here in the States is an inconsistent mess and has been for a long time.

The Church got out of the 'temporal power' business because it wasn't very good at it. A shame the modern clergy seems to have forgotten that message.

Posted by: DarkLord©, Rogue Commenter for a Rogue Planet at February 07, 2012 05:26 PM (GBXon)

30 Pentecostals are fags.

Posted by: Dr Spank at February 07, 2012 05:26 PM (lVGED)

31
Don't start with that Lutheran shit, Andy.

Posted by: Soothsayer the Calvinist at February 07, 2012 05:26 PM (sqkOB)

32
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.

Teach a man to fish and he doesn't need your sorry handouts any more.

Posted by: Irony Is my middle name. at February 07, 2012 05:26 PM (C8hzL)

33 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable tyrant.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 05:27 PM (8y9MW)

34 1:30 ABC News Update:

>>Obama has announced today, he is considering an extension for the "Catholic Problem" (my words) so that a compromise can be worked out.<<

I am not a Catholic, nor particularly religious, but here is my opening offer of compromise to Obumbles:

Fuck off and Die. Then we'll talk. OK?

Posted by: Hammersmith Police at February 07, 2012 05:27 PM (Onw8c)

35
Pentecostals are fags.

I see we have a Baptist in the house.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:27 PM (sqkOB)

36 Not sure what you people are bitching about, in Washington State there
is a requirement that all health insurance covers PKU, Phenylketonuria,
which is a disease related to Maple Syrup Urine disease. Which affects
about 1 in 15,000 people.


Am I missing something? A 1 in 15,000 condition sounds like something that should be included in a catastrophic health policy.

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at February 07, 2012 05:28 PM (bjRNS)

37 Number 2 and they'll hop right back on the bandwagon if rescinded or if Obama makes noises like it might be rescinded. A church that can tolerate and give awards to Father Pfleger just can't be trusted.

Posted by: ejo at February 07, 2012 05:28 PM (5gJWV)

38 I think it's more to do with that liberal construct, separation between church and state , that supports the catholic churches position.

Posted by: polynikes - Texan for Romney at February 07, 2012 05:28 PM (AoFbY)

39 This isn't like giving gays the right to marry within their sex. That's totally cool because there is a personal benefit which is derived by the politicians involved. No. You can't give everyone an exemption. You can only give small, highly-focused groups exemptions. Because those are the kinds of exemptions which translate into campaign donations and votes.

Dumbasses.

Posted by: Truman North at February 07, 2012 05:28 PM (I2LwF)

40 "Because it's easy. It's Christianity for lazy people. You don't have to do nuthin.You attend Mass once in a while, throw a few dollars in the basket, and God and the priest take care of everything else." _________________________________________________________
That may be the case for some Catholics, but I assure you many of us are more engaged and invested in the truths of our Faith.

Posted by: kallisto at February 07, 2012 05:28 PM (jm/9g)

41 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at February 07, 2012 05:29 PM (7W3wI)

42 Sorry, LauraW. The Catholic bishops opposed the Senate version of the health care reform bill.

March 15, 2010 article

"Washington D.C., Mar 15, 2010 / 06:41 pm (CNA-EWTN News)
In a statement Monday, Cardinal Francis George, president of the U.S.
Conference of Catholic Bishops, said that the U.S. bishops are now
opposing the current Senate health care bill because the cost “is too
high” and “the loss too great” for it to be supported. Cardinal George
also expressed concern with the Catholic Health Association's support
the bill.""

tinyurl.com/ydf7p4a

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 05:29 PM (HjPtV)

43
I'm getting a kick out of this compromise thing.

Since when do you compromise your core religious beliefs (with the government!)?

This is bizarre.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:29 PM (sqkOB)

44 First they came for the gun owners, and I didn't give a shit because they are a bunch of bitter clingers.

Then they came for the Jews, but hey, they killed Jesus, so who gives a shit.

Then they came for the business owners, but I didn't say anything because my union rep told me to be quiet, and my priest likes to talk shit about evil corporations.

Then they came for the Catholics, but there was nobody left to speak out for us.

Posted by: Martin Niemoller Jr. at February 07, 2012 05:30 PM (nEUpB)

45 What I don't quite understand about the Catholic non exemtpion for religious reasons?

if so how did the Amish or Muslims get exemptions?

Posted by: willow at February 07, 2012 05:30 PM (TomZ9)

46 Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.

Teach a man to fish and he doesn't need your sorry handouts any more.


Posted by: Irony Is my middle name[i/]


Excuse me, do you have a license to fish?

Posted by: mpfs, gubmint agent at February 07, 2012 05:30 PM (iYbLN)

47 Although Christ explicitly rejected this solution over and over and over again most of the Church would sell their and othersfreedom for bread for others and then feel good about it.

I'm a convert to catholicism and I have to say that they are a difficult group of people. Oxymoronic.

Posted by: dagny at February 07, 2012 05:30 PM (ZQGZA)

48 >>Since when do you compromise your core religious beliefs (with the government!)?

Since you live in a totalitarian regime.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at February 07, 2012 05:30 PM (ZKzrr)

49 It's the same with taxes, raise the rich guys just not mine. Oh you say over 100 grand per family is rich? Nah it's 126,501.

Posted by: Mr Pink at February 07, 2012 05:30 PM (VEM1P)

50
oh dear

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:30 PM (sqkOB)

51 You would think the Church (big C) would have learned a few lessons from
their prior involvements and experiences wielding political power but
you'd be wrong about that.


Only if you were far less cynical than I am.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 05:31 PM (8y9MW)

52 @34

No this is Chicago politics. Threaten to cut off their head, they beg, you only shot them in the leg.

AKA, promise to AGAIN give your support for The One, and we'll give you an exemption, until we don't give you an exemption.

BUT, First you will suck Obama's dick, and like it.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo-intellectual at February 07, 2012 05:31 PM (hXJOG)

53 Obama's plan is simply to have religious organizations exit the healthcare space and to have as manyemployers as possible to stop providing theiremployees with health insurance. The left does not want religious groups providing healtchare as they have long done. Nore does the left want employers to provide health insurance. They want everything done at the federal level. And so long as the Catholic church provides charitable care, or employers provide health insurance, it undercuts Obama's rationale for more state involvement.
Obama knows the Catholic Church will stop providing healthcare if they must facilitate in abortions. He also knows that many employers will stop providing insurance if they know such insurance must facilitiate abortion. All of this will help Obama make the argument that only the state can provide healthcare, and the federal government must get involved.
This is all by design and is the big play. He is hoping for a knock out blow to allow for the complete federal takeover of healthcare after the Catholic church abandons the poor because of their personal God beliefs.
Methinks he overplayed his hand on this one though. But for him, it was worth the effort, he probably saw this play as having nothing to lose.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2012 05:31 PM (gmeXX)

54 >> Don't start with that Lutheran shit, Andy.

Nah, that's just a historical reference to the shoe-on-the-other-foot irony of Luther's 95 Theses, which protested (among other things) the sale of indulgences by the Church.

Now if Michael shows up, well ... he's hard-core Luthern.

Posted by: Andy at February 07, 2012 05:32 PM (5Rurq)

55 I'm a Catholic but I got a feeling they're going to lose this one...because it affects the business activities of the Church, where they are subjected to a lot of other govt control too. I don't think nonprofit or not for profit makes any difference..

Posted by: jeanne! with two N's and an E at February 07, 2012 05:32 PM (GdalM)

56 I still get my skin-graft exemption though, right?

Posted by: Xipe Totec at February 07, 2012 05:32 PM (9pGza)

57
yeah, I'm aware, broseph

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:32 PM (sqkOB)

58 It seems no different to me than religious organizations being tax exempt. I also would like to be tax exempt but I don't expect it just because s church is.

Posted by: polynikes - Texan for Romney at February 07, 2012 05:33 PM (AoFbY)

59 Its not included in catastrophic, its mandated in every insurance policy sold in Washington State, along with mandates such as coverage of acupuncturists, chiropractors, port wine stain removal, massage therapists.

I am covered for a mammogram. I can't buy insurance for myself that does not include mammogram coverage.

Posted by: AndrewsDad at February 07, 2012 05:33 PM (C2//T)

60 Heh, All I did was to find a hole in the wall of church and state.

Don't see the problem.

Posted by: King Putt III at February 07, 2012 05:33 PM (Onw8c)

61 Interesting post.

Posted by: ace at February 07, 2012 05:33 PM (nj1bB)

62 @53

Bingo! Single payer here we come!

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo-intellectual at February 07, 2012 05:33 PM (hXJOG)

63
You gotta love the huge balls on Obama, too.

He's offering them another extension, (well beyond the election), and a compromise!


Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:34 PM (sqkOB)

64 As soon as their tax exempt status is threatened they will fold like a house of cards.

They'll make the face that they make when I ask them why the bishop is ok with gay priests as long as they aren't "active". It involves looking at their shoes, the sky, their watch.

Posted by: dagny at February 07, 2012 05:34 PM (ZQGZA)

65 Meiczyslaw

how do you pronounce this name?

Posted by: Truman North at February 07, 2012 05:34 PM (I2LwF)

66 If the Catholic Church buys the shit O is shoveling now they deserve what they get.

The WH just realized they pissed off an enormous voting block. Talk about clueless. They are almost as clueless as the Catholic leaders who believed O's original promise.

Posted by: mpfs at February 07, 2012 05:34 PM (iYbLN)

67 They sorta acted like the Government Unions do.

"More money for me means less money for all you other taxpayers."

It's this type of thinking that if people begin to realize what the Democrat party is all about will bring it crashing down.

Up till Obama they did it incrementally, and very subtly.

The pandered to each and every victim they could find or create and promised them a piece of the other guy's pie for their support.

But even for Democrats, eventually they wind up with no more suckers and the con collapses as the marks come back at them with all those promises on paper in one hand and a lead pipe in the other. (that's how they were taught to react)

OWS was an expression of this. More is coming for the Dems during their convention.

Think Chicago 1968 and Lincoln Park.

(For musical accompaniment, see Crosby, Stills Nash's "Chicago")




Posted by: Zombie Nation Endorses SMOD at February 07, 2012 05:35 PM (CP+yl)

68 65
Meiczyslaw



how do you pronounce this name?




Me like coleslaw

Posted by: mpfs at February 07, 2012 05:35 PM (iYbLN)

69 From the article I linked in #42 above:


“Two basic principles, therefore, continue to shape the concerns of
the Catholic bishops,” Cardinal George concluded, “health care means
taking care of the health needs of all, across the human life span; and
the expansion of health care should not involve the expansion of
abortion funding and of polices forcing everyone to pay for abortions.”

“Because these principles have not been respected, despite the good
that the bill under consideration intends or might achieve, the Catholic
bishops regretfully hold that it must be opposed unless and until these
serious moral problems are addressed.”

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 05:35 PM (HjPtV)

70 ...and yeah the pastors were always praying on healthcare back when the bill was in Congress. I told myself if they ever out and out tell us how to vote, I would stand up and walk out. Hubby can be a mouse and stay behind.

But they never quite go there.

Posted by: jeanne! with two N's and an E at February 07, 2012 05:35 PM (GdalM)

71
Obama's saying okay okay, I hear you. Now shut up, vote for me, and maybe we'll talk after the election (not).

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:35 PM (sqkOB)

72 I'm a Jew, can I take this tread off and raid the frig?

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:36 PM (i6RpT)

73 53 and BINGO was his name-O

Posted by: dagny at February 07, 2012 05:36 PM (ZQGZA)

74 I do realize that these religious organizations are also involved with for profit businesses that are not tax exempt.

Posted by: polynikes - Texan for Romney at February 07, 2012 05:36 PM (AoFbY)

75 To paraphrase Reagan: 'A government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take it all away.' Or force you to do and pay for things you abhor.

So I guess the Catholic church is learning this lesson the hard way.

Posted by: Mætenloch at February 07, 2012 05:36 PM (pAlYe)

76 This is yet another argument against organized religion and an argument for local Bible study groups.

Matt. 18:20 "For where two or three gather in my name, I am there with them."

Posted by: ErikW at February 07, 2012 05:37 PM (7uPGt)

77 The only good thing is the pastor had to read the Bishops' letter last week. I'll bet it sticks in their maw to oppose St. Barack.

Posted by: jeanne! with two N's and an E at February 07, 2012 05:37 PM (GdalM)

78 "I think it's pretty clear they were expecting to get a golden waiver of their own..."

Got the golden shower instead. Life's a bitch like that sometimes when you make deals with the devil.

Hint to the Catholic PTB - demons cheat and lie, its what they do.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 07, 2012 05:37 PM (Tq/iS)

79 So I guess the Catholic church is learning this lesson the hard way.
Posted by: Mætenloch at February 07, 2012 05:36 PM (pAlYe)

Most people usually do

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:37 PM (i6RpT)

80 Posted by: AndrewsDad at February 07, 2012 05:33 PM (C2//T)

Well, you should look after your tits, especially if they are nice ones.

Posted by: Martin Niemoller Jr. at February 07, 2012 05:37 PM (nEUpB)

81 I see on Drudge that former Rep. Dahlkemper (D, OH) now regrets voting for Obamacare, as she (along with Bart Stoolpacker, D, Obama's Scrotum) were assured by O's Executive Order that this would not happen.

Too bad it's only now that these asswipes see the error of their ways, and that their craven cowardice and faith in an utter liar like Obama has now led us into the jaws of socialized medicine. Worthless MFers.

Posted by: Blacksheep at February 07, 2012 05:37 PM (8/DeP)

82
Lauraw coulda just saved herself a lotta time and typed:

Hey Catholics, you go to bed with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:38 PM (sqkOB)

83 I wonder if the OUTRAGE at Susan G. Koeman pulling out of the abortion mill industry made Ofucknugget and Sebelius think this was a good time to annouce its fuck the catholic hospitals campaign>

Posted by: dagny at February 07, 2012 05:38 PM (ZQGZA)

84 how do you pronounce this name?

It's Polish, so it should be obvious, right?

I pronounce it mitch-uh-slaw.

Just be thankful I don't use my full screen name anymore. It was "Meiczyslaw Neibiezczanski".

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at February 07, 2012 05:38 PM (bjRNS)

85 Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:36 PM (i6RpT)

Always scheming!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:38 PM (nEUpB)

86 Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he doesn't need your sorry handouts any more.
Posted by: Irony Is my middle name. at February 07, 2012 05:26 PM (C8hzL)

The Moron version:

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day.

Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Posted by: ol_dirty_/b/tard at February 07, 2012 05:38 PM (KSjsb)

87 I am, quite frankly, enjoying the show. I was told in 2008 to sit back and shut up about Obama by my fellow Catholics. He will be too busy fixing the economy to worry about reproductive rights, they told me. His stance on partial birth abortions was decades old, don't worry about it, they said. Now they are shocked?!

Posted by: Marie at February 07, 2012 05:39 PM (P9OJs)

88
You go to bed with Michael Jackson, you're gonna find his hand down your pajama bottoms.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:40 PM (sqkOB)

89 Always scheming!
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:38 PM (nEUpB)


It's in my genes, like never paying full retail

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:40 PM (i6RpT)

90 @13 - The Catholic faith is like the Marine Corps of Christianity - Catholic people just tend to go AWOL a lot.

And to your point - people aren't Catholic because it is easy - they are Catholic because they are born Catholic just like anyone who is a member of any religion is statistically guaranteed to be.

Posted by: E.M. August at February 07, 2012 05:40 PM (zeBNm)

91 Gotta watch out for those Methodists I tells ya.

Posted by: Taggart at February 07, 2012 05:40 PM (ZCMDs)

92 I would say that yes, the hierarchy likely supported the law thinking that they were going to get an exemption. To be fair though, it does seem that now that the mandate has been issued that a large number of groups, Catholic and non-Catholic, are protesting the mandate. The focus has been on the requirement and how it burdens Catholics, but I suppose in MFM shorthand the Catholic Church is the only religion opposed to contraception. In general, I hate talk of religious "exemptions" because it implies that the government is allowed to do whatever it wants to unless the government believes you when you say you're opposed to it. Rather than grant "exemptions" for religious groups, the better solution would be not to make so many rules like that in the first place.

Posted by: Catholic Paultard at February 07, 2012 05:40 PM (BNrRR)

93 San Francisco is Pentecostal????

Posted by: Mitt Sux Too at February 07, 2012 05:40 PM (lpsUc)

94 >> he's hard-core Luthern

hard-core Luthern = bicycle helmet

Posted by: Dave in Texas at February 07, 2012 05:41 PM (WvXvd)

95 They'll make the face that they make when I ask them why the bishop is ok with gay priests as long as they aren't "active".

The problem is that so many churches (as organizations) want to be involved in politics, but they don't want politics to be involved back. They want to say, "Yes, that is good, do that!" but they don't want the government to turn around and say, "Fine. You have to do this other thing, though."

The Church (again: as an organization) wants the Separation of Church and State to be more of a one way door. The State wants the same thing (just the other direction) and what we get is sort of both.

Now, I'm not suggesting that specific Catholics should stay silent about their political ideas- including clergy. But I think they should be very clear when they're talking about their political preferences, and when they're speaking (if you will) ex cathedra.

Had the Church simply said (re: ObamaCare) "Hey, we think taking care of people is a good idea- if this really does that, we're more or less in favor of it," instead of actively agitating for it (as many priests did from the pulpit- not just Catholics, either, I'm just seizing on them because they're the focus of the current issue), I'd probably be more up in arms about this. As it is, it's a problem- but it would be a problem regardless of if it directly affected the Church.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 05:41 PM (8y9MW)

96 I pronounce it mitch-uh-slaw.

Nah, that can't be right.

Posted by: al-Cicero, Tea Party Jihadist at February 07, 2012 05:41 PM (QKKT0)

97 It's probably just me butif we replace "Catholics" with"Muslims," there'd bea full chorus of "Haters!" and the collective hellfire of all things 'Coexist" to come down from on high. Just sayin'...

Posted by: kqb29 at February 07, 2012 05:41 PM (hW7/O)

98
You get into a plane with JFK Jr, you're gonna wake up on the bottom of the
Atlantic.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:41 PM (sqkOB)

99 Let me add another thought. Obama knows this cannot stand a court challenge. But he gave a nod to his left base by taking on the biggest church and the one that supports all the things the left hates. So check box for the left base. Obama will cave on this and will use it to show that he is a compromiser, that he listens to people, that Obamacare isn't as bad as you all think - they took into account public decision and changed course.

When in realty, he didn't compromise at all. You cannot compromise on the 1st Amendment.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2012 05:41 PM (gmeXX)

100 They were hoping to be eaten last.

Posted by: maddogg at February 07, 2012 05:42 PM (OlN4e)

101 Just be thankful I don't use my full screen name anymore. It was "Meiczyslaw Neibiezczanski".


Posted by: Meiczyslaw at February 07, 2012 05:38 PM (bjRNS)
I'll take a vowel, Vanna.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo-intellectual at February 07, 2012 05:43 PM (hXJOG)

102 You get into a plane with JFK Jr, you're gonna wake up on the bottom of the
Atlantic.
Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:41 PM (sqkOB)

All Kennedy's are alike

Posted by: Mary Jo at February 07, 2012 05:43 PM (i6RpT)

103 Catholics are not a voting bloc (results for the past Presidential elections, back to 1952; http://tinyurl.com/6sf5lr6), nor is their party affiliation particularly tilted (http://tinyurl.com/7gumr7v).

Posted by: Y-not at February 07, 2012 05:43 PM (5H6zj)

104 We get soothsayer, you hate Catholics, how Christian.

Posted by: Dr Spank at February 07, 2012 05:43 PM (lVGED)

105
The Catholics (and I was raised Catholic) sold out for the social justice commie crap. So, fuck them. They get what they sowed...

Posted by: mike at February 07, 2012 05:43 PM (bxXRo)

106 I don't know if it was planned dagny, but it is passing strange that we have two major abortion-related flaps in the MSM news cycle at the same time. My evil twin thinks the Admin. is begging for a clinic bombing to get the public hating conservatives instead of them.

Posted by: lincolntf at February 07, 2012 05:43 PM (hiMsy)

107 You get into a plane with JFK Jr, you're gonna wake up on the bottom of the
Atlantic.


Broaden it to "ride with a Kennedy and you're gonna get wet" and I'll buy it as a generally-applicable principle.

Posted by: al-Cicero, Tea Party Jihadist at February 07, 2012 05:43 PM (QKKT0)

108
You binge on Taco Bell, you're gonna wake up with flames shootin outta your ass.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:43 PM (sqkOB)

109 When Obama was in the Illinois legislature, his sole legislation of any importance was a bill legalizing infanticide. Not abortion: infanticide.

I do understand how anyone with a conscience and a brain could even consider making a deal with the man.

Posted by: Brown Line at February 07, 2012 05:44 PM (VrNoa)

110 @99 As much as I'd love to see Obama to cave on this, I'd prefer a beatdown from the Supreme Court even more...I'm still in shock that his own appointees decided against his administration in Hosanna Tabor.

Posted by: Catholic Paultard at February 07, 2012 05:44 PM (BNrRR)

111 I do hate when my church is on the wrong side of issues,like healthcare and the death penalty.I pretty much ignore them on those issues and the other social justice positions.

Posted by: steevy at February 07, 2012 05:44 PM (7W3wI)

112 The Catholics (and I was raised Catholic) sold out for the social justice commie crap. So, fuck them. They get what they sowed...
Posted by: mike at February 07, 2012 05:43 PM (bxXRo)

Actually no, we need them, and anyone and everyone else who has a burr up their ass about something obama did.

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (i6RpT)

113 "begging for a clinic bombing"

I can buy that scenario.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (Tq/iS)

114 ty Mitch

Posted by: Truman North at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (I2LwF)

115 They just switched over to the "new" mass that the rest of the world has been using. They didn't want to do it and were forced. The new wording is shocking some folks. It's supposed to be closer to the original language.

Their contributions are down a lot. Almost every parish publishes this in the weekly bulletin an compares it to the previous year. And the donations to the bishop's appeal are down. The older folks who give the bulk of the money are still angry at the abuse that went on. And the fact that the church self insured and all the settlements are coming from local parishes and selling church property. Plus in my parents diocese the bishop was moved from the diocese where all the abuse occurred and his first action was to put a 100 grand kitchen in his residence. So that one really got the old folks pissed. So, while mass attendance is up, donations are down, a combination of the economy and the abuse scandals.

So the president is simply taking advantage of the fact that their donations are down and they need that federal money to run their businesses.

People are still upset about Saint Vincent's Hospital closing. They bought in some honcho to fix everything and the guy is making more of a mess.


Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (oZfic)

116 "Ever wonder why modern Catholicism is so popular? Because it's easy. It's Christianity for lazy people."

I converted to Catholicism, and I take it seriously. There is nothing easy or lazy about it.

Posted by: Blacksheep at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (8/DeP)

117
We get it soothsayer, you hate Catholics, how Christian.

You missed the point entirely.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (sqkOB)

118 I hate to say it, but the Catholic Church is far from alone in selling out to socialism. I quit attending church as I was sick of having to listen to socialist indoctrination bullshit every Sunday.

Posted by: maddogg at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (OlN4e)

119 What was your point?

Posted by: Dr Spank at February 07, 2012 05:46 PM (lVGED)

120 Because it seems to me that there may actually be a lot of other
employers not officially connected to the Catholic church who feel the
same way about being forced to supply abortifacients to their employees.


Yes, I raised the conscience question with my insurance broker back in the late 90's and requested the exemption. It was a simple process.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at February 07, 2012 05:46 PM (phlKA)

121 And to your point - people aren't Catholic because it is easy - they are
Catholic because they are born Catholic just like anyone who is a
member of any religion is statistically guaranteed to be.


Besides, that's our bag.

Posted by: The Unitarians at February 07, 2012 05:47 PM (GBXon)

122
Why all the denial, brosephs?

Look for yourselves. Most nominal Catholics have little to nothing to do with church activities. At most, they show up for a few masses per year.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:47 PM (sqkOB)

123 I hate to say it, but the Catholic Church is far from alone in selling out to socialism. I quit attending church as I was sick of having to listen to socialist indoctrination bullshit every Sunday.
Posted by: maddogg at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (OlN4e)

Then I suggest you stay far far far away from any Reformed Jewish Temple

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:47 PM (i6RpT)

124 Comment #53 by SH is correct.

Posted by: Mitt Sux Too at February 07, 2012 05:47 PM (McNch)

125 As for Lauraw's question of if every should have the conscientious objection- maybe, but there's actually precedent that gives conscientious objector status specifically for Religious beliefs.

Many people were allowed off the WWI draft because of such.

So, given that precedent, it stands to reason that the Church would expect to be exempted from things that violated long held, core beliefs.

Which goes to her second point: that makes them (the ones who supported ObamaCare) traitors to freedom- they'll gladly see you lose yours as long as they think they can keep theirs.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 05:47 PM (8y9MW)

126 Catholics are just part of the Bitter Clinger Nation, and Zero feels he can get his necessary 52 without 'em.

So fuck 'em, sez he. His 52 percenters will think more highly of him for stuffing it down their Catholic throats.

Notice him in public, doing his "interviews," the camera in soft focus, you can almost hear the Oprah-type background music (is it in there at some frequency you cannot really hear, but sense it subliminally?), as he chats in a very friendly fashion with Matt, or Brian, or Diane, or someone else, relaxed, open shirt collar, no tie, saying "folks" a lot. A guy you would like to have in your living room.

But off camera, he goes into full fascist mode.

Posted by: Buck Ofama at February 07, 2012 05:48 PM (4sQwu)

127
Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:47 PM (i6RpT)

Like I said, the Catholics are far from alone.

Posted by: maddogg at February 07, 2012 05:48 PM (OlN4e)

128 Posted by: Dr Spank at February 07, 2012 05:43 PM (lVGED)

I think you may have misinterpreted just a bit.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:49 PM (nEUpB)

129 >> but it is passing strange that we have two major abortion-related flaps in the MSM news cycle at the same time.

You know, when you look at how poorly handled the Komen thing was, you just have to wonder.

Hanlon's razor or tinfoil hat conspiracy!!11! ... it's a tough call.

Posted by: Andy at February 07, 2012 05:49 PM (5Rurq)

130 The healthcare facilities associated with the Catholic Church supply 16% of this country's health care. The Catholic bishops opposed the Senate version of the Health Care reform bill BEFORE it became law.

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 05:49 PM (HjPtV)

131 "they are Catholic because they are born Catholic"

BS. Plenty of converts every year. I was baptized in 1993 after being raised as a Nothing by my trés modern parent.

Posted by: jeanne! Defender of the Faith! at February 07, 2012 05:49 PM (GdalM)

132 So does this mean that Obama hates hispanics who arepredominately Catholic? Looks like a great opportunity for the GOP. Oh wait, their not called the Stupid party for nothing.

Posted by: Jack at February 07, 2012 05:49 PM (USVc1)

133 I think you may have misinterpreted just a bit.
>>


Enlighten me.

Posted by: Dr Spank at February 07, 2012 05:49 PM (lVGED)

134 Amish get an exemption from Medicare, I don't see why Catholics can't get an exemption from ObamaCare

Posted by: Texan Economist at February 07, 2012 05:50 PM (6pZxt)

135 Hey this isn't so bad.



It's not like they're going to force anyone to take antidepressants or anything.

Posted by: L Ron at February 07, 2012 05:50 PM (XOBhY)

136 Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (i6RpT)

+1000

We do need them (assuming they will vote their consciences and not their pocketbooks), but can't we enjoy their pain for just a few moments?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:50 PM (nEUpB)

137
The point again: The Catholic has moved into an attitude that makes it easy for most of their Church.

That is, we understand you don't want to get involved or you don't have time to do stuff, so just give us your offering and we'll fulflill your Christian duties.

Which is remarkably and eerily similar to what the Democrats say.

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:50 PM (sqkOB)

138 Amish get an exemption from Medicare, I don't see why Catholics can't get an exemption from ObamaCare
Posted by: Texan Economist at February 07, 2012 05:50 PM (6pZxt)

And just following the logic here, does that mean we Jews get a special dispensation from the IRS?
/

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:51 PM (i6RpT)

139 We're getting outraged over one victim of one regulation inside a byzantine mess that needs to be thrown away in its entirety.

Hey! What did we ever do to you, Humpy?

Posted by: The Byzantines at February 07, 2012 05:51 PM (niZvt)

140 but can't we enjoy their pain for just a few moments?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:50 PM (nEUpB)


I live to enjoy the pain of others

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:51 PM (i6RpT)

141 Hey, maybe dumbass women should start being more responsible for their own bodies.

Posted by: drowningpuppies at February 07, 2012 05:51 PM (012vu)

142
they F'ed up. they trusted me.

Posted by: Barry Oflustercluck at February 07, 2012 05:52 PM (o8Ahx)

143 As for the Church "selling out to socialism", read "Witness To Hope". Pope John Paul II's first visit to Communist Poland is a sublime example of moral courage.

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 05:52 PM (HjPtV)

144 It's in my genes, like never paying full retail

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:40 PM (i6RpT)

I love it! Oy vey?

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo-intellectual at February 07, 2012 05:52 PM (hXJOG)

145 >>What was your point?

I got it--you're saying when you go up to Mike Tyson's hotel room at 4 a.m., he's gonna give you more than sparkling conversation.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at February 07, 2012 05:52 PM (ZKzrr)

146 Let me add another thought. Obama knows this cannot stand a court
challenge. But he gave a nod to his left base by taking on the biggest
church and the one that supports all the things the left hates. So check
box for the left base. Obama will cave on this and will use it to show
that he is a compromiser, that he listens to people, that Obamacare
isn't as bad as you all think - they took into account public decision
and changed course.



When in realty, he didn't compromise at all. You cannot compromise on the 1st Amendment.

Posted by: SH at February 07, 2012 05:41 PM (gmeXX)


Bingo! This was just a ploy so Obama can say to the disaffected hard left base, I'm still as pro-infanticide as ever!
Expect him to reverse decision in the next week or two. He'll benevolently grant an exemption to the Catholic Church so all the dopey pro-Obama Catholics who are outraged over this can see what an understanding, compromising leader Obama is.
The hard left will be disappointed with the reversal, but know he's still on their side, the Catholic left will be able to resume adoration of their golden calf, and Mitt Romney will applaud Obama for listening to the public.

Posted by: mugiwara at February 07, 2012 05:52 PM (KI/Ch)

147 118 I hate to say it, but the Catholic Church is far from alone in selling out to socialism. I quit attending church as I was sick of having to listen to socialist indoctrination bullshit every Sunday.

Posted by: maddogg at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (OlN4e)


Actually pretty much *every* church's leadership is a classic example of Robert Conquest's Second Law of Politics: Any organization not explicitly right-wing sooner or later becomes left-wing

Posted by: Mætenloch at February 07, 2012 05:52 PM (pAlYe)

148 What still peeves me is we would have had no ObamaCare if it wasn't for Olympia "history" Snowe.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at February 07, 2012 05:52 PM (AlYnQ)

149
Just be thankful I don't use my full screen name anymore. It was "Meiczyslaw Neibiezczanski".


Posted by: Meiczyslaw at February 07, 2012 05:38 PM (bjRNS)


Reminds me of an old George Carlin bit.

What's your name?

Genoffski.

How do you spell it?

S.M.I.T.H.

Huh?

They're all silent, nevermind....

Posted by: © Sponge at February 07, 2012 05:53 PM (UK9cE)

150 @137
No, that is not quite true. In our parish, our pastor emphasizes all the time about how important it is for us to get involved, personally, in charities, soup kitchens, whatever, as part of our Christian ministry. For not only by word shall we be saved, but also by our deeds. And, we can get a listing of where and how our offerings are spent and we have gotten them, and for the most part they have been put to good use.

Posted by: IC at February 07, 2012 05:53 PM (jZNCU)

151 "Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I was Protestant."

Posted by: t-bird at February 07, 2012 05:53 PM (FcR7P)

152 It's my nature.

Posted by: The Scorpion at February 07, 2012 05:53 PM (5Rurq)

153 Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:50 PM (sqkOB)

There are a lot of Catholic volunteers. Moms and Dads used to teach CCD which is confraternity of Christian Doctrine which was an out of school class you attend once a week. Those are all volunteers. But the people running it are paid well. My mom tells me that there used to be more volunteers and fewer paid people when she was growing up. She also says that her church was renovated when she was a kid and most of the tradesmen did the work for free, which they won't or can't do now cause of union rules.

Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 05:54 PM (oZfic)

154
Maybe the Catholic Church likes government provided health care because that's one more "taking care of the poor" thing they don't have to pay for out of the offering plates, leaving more for renovating the Vatican and other historical works of architecture throughout the world.
Socialism is in a way its own religion as much as political ideology, and if it can take away the need for the traditional role of religious institutions, it can replace them.
All segments of society that were traditionally in the realm of the world's religions...marriage, caring for the poor and suffering through providing healthcare or food or shelter or other financial assistance, education, moral guidance, counciling...the Left wants to control them all and enforce their views no less than Radical Islam now or Crusading Christians centuries ago.

Posted by: MostlyRight at February 07, 2012 05:54 PM (ZG8Ti)

155 Actually pretty much *every* church's leadership is a classic example of Robert Conquest's Second Law of Politics:

Not mine (scoffs at Churches with any form of regional/national organization). Completely autonomous- makes the minister a lot more answerable to the congregation on such matters. Either he supports what we do, or at least doesn't mention it from the pulpit.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 05:54 PM (8y9MW)

156 Posted by: Dr Spank at February 07, 2012 05:49 PM (lVGED)

His criticism seems harsh, but it is directed at the current practices of the Catholic Church, not at individual Catholics.

And his is not alone in his glee that they have been hoist on their own petard.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:54 PM (nEUpB)

157
So, the point of this postseems to be "screw the Constitution, and it's protections, if an organization makes the mistake of supporting something for the wrong reasons, based on assurances that turned out to be broken promises, they deserve what they get"?
Really?
I'm a Catholic convert, and I find it quite frustrating the extent to which my co-religionists buy into "social justice" as peddled by the Democrats, never quite putting together the fact that it is not, in fact any more just, and based on the evidence is quite the opposite, dragging more people into misery.
But as has been observed, the Catholic Church (capital C) did NOT endorse Obamacare. Indeed, it could not, since the Pope is the only one who could do so for the Church, and the Pope's decrees are only binding on the faithful in matters of doctrine, which Obamacare is certainly not. People who suggest otherwise misunderstand how the Church is organized, and on which matters it exercises its authority.
The notion that because some Catholics (or some Catholic groups, even) supported Obamacare means that Catholic organizations should "suck it up" and give up their religious freedoms is absurd.
If what it took to wake up liberal Catholics to the danger of collaboration with the Obama administration is having this blow up in their face, it would be wiser tactically to congratulate them on finally waking up, rather than scolding them for being naive in the first place.

Posted by: Andrew at February 07, 2012 05:55 PM (bPYXq)

158 Let's all remember that the Catholic Church, and most Catholic organizations, are very liberal.

I'm Catholic, but the Church supports amnesty for illegals and open borders, they support just about every entitlement program that comes down the pike, they supported Obamacare. They are largely silent regarding pro-abortion catholic politicians.

Let's not be lulled into thinking that the church is generally anything but far left in its political inclinations. There are a few Bishops or Cardinals or Priests that aren't, but overall - the Catholic Church hierarchy and various catholic organizations are leftist.

So, I feel little sympathy for my own church on this. When you lie down with fascists, you can't be surprised when they start ordering you about as well.

Posted by: Monkeytoe at February 07, 2012 05:55 PM (sOx93)

159 does that mean we Jews get a special dispensation from the IRS?

Money, money, money.

It's always about money with you people.

Posted by: Zombie Nation Endorses SMOD at February 07, 2012 05:55 PM (CP+yl)

160 The current practice of the Catholic Church is to serve Christ.

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 05:56 PM (HjPtV)

161 I don't really care how it all went down. I just glad that the Catholic Church as finally woken up. Perhaps they will take note of just who is on their side in this fight and join the millions of us who are fighting this fight every day.

Posted by: Pecos at February 07, 2012 05:56 PM (2Gb0y)

162 Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:51 PM (i6RpT)

Okay, that does it. We have got to have a beer some time.

Maybe a meeting of the Northern New Jersey Curmudgeons Club?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:56 PM (nEUpB)

163 Texan economist, that's what I was thinking. I just have to get a copy of whatever form ol' Ezekiel in Pennsylvania filled out to get his Amish exemption and then make 70 million copies to be passed out at Mass on Sunday.

Posted by: lincolntf at February 07, 2012 05:56 PM (hiMsy)

164 Posted by: Andrew at February 07, 2012 05:55 PM (bPYXq)

Actually, no: the point is the opposite. It shouldn't matter that the Catholics are Catholic- anyone who has a moral objection to ObamaCare should be exempt- not just the Catholic Church.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 05:56 PM (8y9MW)

165 The Catholic bishops did not support ObamaCare. They opposed it before it became law.

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 05:57 PM (HjPtV)

166 >> So, the point of this postseems to be "screw the Constitution, and it's
protections, if an organization makes the mistake of supporting
something for the wrong reasons, based on assurances that turned out to
be broken promises, they deserve what they get"?

Ummmm, no. It's pretty much exactly the opposite of that.

Posted by: Andy at February 07, 2012 05:57 PM (5Rurq)

167 Money, money, money.

It's always about money with you people.
Posted by: Zombie Nation Endorses SMOD at February 07, 2012 05:55 PM (CP+yl)


Hey we took out 2 Arab Nuclear Weapons Plants, so that's Jews 2 the rest of the World 0. And we're working on number 3

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:57 PM (i6RpT)

168 The current practice of the Catholic Church is to serve Christ.


Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 05:56 PM (HjPtV)


Except those that serve up little boys.

Posted by: © Sponge at February 07, 2012 05:57 PM (UK9cE)

169 The real irony, though, is tht the American RC bishops supportd Obamacare, an didn't much care for all our other rights it stomps on - like the right to capitalism.

Now that it's THEIR ox getting gored, the RC bishops suddenly realize the link between socialism and totalitarianism.

I support them now, but wish they had been less enamored of lefty BS before.

Posted by: The Byzantines at February 07, 2012 05:58 PM (niZvt)

170 Hey we took out 2 Arab Nuclear Weapons Plants, so that's Jews 2 the rest of the World 0. And we're working on number 3

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:57 PM (i6RpT)



Well then, quit yer bitchen and GET TO IT!!!!

Posted by: © Sponge at February 07, 2012 05:58 PM (UK9cE)

171 OT yet another outrage from the Obama administration;no Purple Hearts for the victims of the Ft.Hood shootings.

Posted by: steevy at February 07, 2012 05:59 PM (7W3wI)

172 Media exit polls for Catholic voting patterns, past five elections:

2008 54% Obama, 45% McCain
2004 47% Kerry, 52% Bush
2000 50% Gore, 47% Bush
1996 53% Clinton, 37% Dole
1992 44% Clinton, 36% Bush


Posted by: Y-not at February 07, 2012 05:59 PM (5H6zj)

173 Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:57 PM (i6RpT)

Not if Obama's little bitch Pinetta has anything to say about it.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:59 PM (nEUpB)

174 Okay, that does it. We have got to have a beer some time.

Maybe a meeting of the Northern New Jersey Curmudgeons Club?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:56 PM (nEUpB)


Well in the words of The Navy Corpsmen in my Unit: Anywhere, Anytime

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 05:59 PM (i6RpT)

175 Pinetta= Panetta

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:59 PM (nEUpB)

176 Ahem,some nasty antiCatholic vitriol in this thread.

Posted by: steevy at February 07, 2012 05:59 PM (7W3wI)

177 >The real irony, though, is tht the American RC bishops supportd
Obamacare, an didn't much care for all our other rights it stomps on -
like the right to capitalism. <

False.

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 06:00 PM (HjPtV)

178 The real irony, though, is tht the American RC
bishops supportd Obamacare, an didn't much care for all our other rights
it stomps on - like the right to capitalism.



Now that it's THEIR ox getting gored, the RC bishops suddenly realize the link between socialism and totalitarianism.



I support them now, but wish they had been less enamored of lefty BS before.



Posted by: The Byzantines at February 07, 2012 05:58 PM (niZvt)



The thing that gets me with that is, churches pay no taxes. I do. Therefore, churches should shut the fuck up about government and government should shut the fuck up about churches.

Government regulates what it wants to regulate, but no way does it have the power to tell it what it can and can't spend its money on, legally.

Posted by: © Sponge at February 07, 2012 06:00 PM (UK9cE)

179 Well in the words of The Navy Corpsmen in my Unit: Anywhere, Anytime

I thought the Corpsman unofficial motto was "have some ibuprofen."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 06:00 PM (8y9MW)

180 I get the impression from the priest on sunday that Catholics in the US are a source of agita to the Pope and that we are on our own when it comes to money yet we have to give money to Rome.

Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 06:00 PM (oZfic)

181
Because it's easy. It's Christianity for lazy people. You don't have to do nuthin.

You attend Mass once in a while, throw a few dollars in the basket, and God and the priest take care of everything else.

That's
why Catholics vote for Democrats, too. The Democrats do all that
charitable work for them. Understand? To a typical Catlick, the
Democrats are doing the Lord's work.


Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 05:18 PM (sqkOB)
* * *
Soothsayer generally clogs a thread with idiotic drivel spewing from his stream of consciousness. This thread is no exception.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 07, 2012 06:01 PM (uhAkr)

182 Pinetta= Panetta


Pinata?

Posted by: fluffy at February 07, 2012 06:01 PM (Lpgtj)

183 Well in the words of The Navy Corpsmen in my Unit: Anywhere, Anytime

I thought the Corpsman unofficial motto was "have some ibuprofen."
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 06:00 PM (8y9MW)

Doesn't look as good on a shirt

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 07, 2012 06:01 PM (i6RpT)

184 The notion that because some Catholics (or some Catholic groups, even)
supported Obamacare means that Catholic organizations should "suck it
up" and give up their religious freedoms is absurd.

I have no sympathy. I'm not saying they should give up religious freedoms. I'm saying I have no sympathy for them and that they should pretend to be surprised that this happened. I am Catholic, but I know how the Church leans. It is a very leftist organization on the whole b/c they, like many people, generally cannot separate the concept of individuals performing good works looking out for the less fortunate as God commanded versus using gov't to force everyone to do what they allege are good works (i.e., entitlement programs and the like). So, most Bishops, priests, Cardinals, and various organizations - the Jesuits being about the worst - are very far left. Jesuits tend to be practically marxist.

Posted by: Monkeytoe at February 07, 2012 06:01 PM (sOx93)

185 171
OT yet another outrage from the Obama administration;no Purple Hearts for the victims of the Ft.Hood shootings.

Posted by: steevy at February 07, 2012 05:59 PM (7W3wI)



I guess SCOAMF's evil administration doesn't care about the military vote. "Ballots, what ballots?"

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 07, 2012 06:02 PM (UOM48)

186 Oh, and btw, OF COURSE the RC Bishops supported leftist bullshit like Obamacare:

http://tinyurl.com/74ovzwo

As an Episcopalian, though, I readily admit our bishops were just as bad.

Posted by: CoolCzech at February 07, 2012 06:02 PM (niZvt)

187 Hey we took out 2 Arab Nuclear Weapons Plants, so that's Jews 2 the rest of the World 0. And we're working on number 3

And a Mazel Tov it was.

Unfortunately the United States Gov't had your back back then.

Today? Not so much.

The PEOPLE of the United States DO have your back but with OBAMA as CinC what the people think doesn't matter so much.


YET.




Posted by: Zombie Nation Endorses SMOD at February 07, 2012 06:02 PM (CP+yl)

188 I solemnly swear that there will be no favoritism in my administration. All will be treated equally.

Posted by: SMOD at February 07, 2012 06:02 PM (6TB1Z)

189 My issue with Catholics and other denominations is that it becomes their identity. It's always, "I'm a Catholic" or "I'm a Baptist" or I'm a Methodist."

It's not a fucking club, it's a belief and a faith in Christ.

I'm a member of the Methodist Church and I have a BIG problem with their support of a Palestinian State and everyone in church knows it.

At the end of the day, I'm there for the fellowship with friends but I'm a Christian, not a Methodist.

Posted by: ErikW at February 07, 2012 06:03 PM (7uPGt)

190 This may all be heading toward having the tax exempt status of churches removed.

Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 06:03 PM (oZfic)

191
u butthurt, bro?

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 06:03 PM (sqkOB)

192 Ben Nelson made the same mistake. Except he assumed the people of Nebraska would swallow their ethics in order to get health care on someone else's dime. Big mistake, Ben.

Posted by: pep at February 07, 2012 06:04 PM (6TB1Z)

193 <The thing that gets me with that is, churches pay no taxes. I do.
Therefore, churches should shut the fuck up about government and
government should shut the fuck up about churches.>

What part of the First Amendment of the US Constitution do you not understand?
That's a rhetorical question, btw.

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 06:04 PM (HjPtV)

194 How many babies does Romneycare require to be killed? Any ideas? Maybe newt will tell us.

Posted by: Commenter at February 07, 2012 06:04 PM (xHenH)

195
People are butthurt.


Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 06:04 PM (sqkOB)

196 Pinetta= Panetta
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJconservative) at February 07, 2012 05:59 PM (nEUpB)

No, I think you had it right the first time.

Panetta, Pinetta, Pendejo, Pinga.

It's all the same.

Posted by: Zombie Nation Endorses SMOD at February 07, 2012 06:05 PM (CP+yl)

197 "Socialism is in a way its own religion as much as political ideology,
and if it can take away the need for the traditional role of religious
institutions, it can replace them."

The Soviets desperately tried for decades to suppress the Catholic church's influence in eastern Europe and Russia, and ultimately the church proved more resilient that the commies. However, the Eastern European catholic church was never as infiltrated to the degree by commies as the American's have become.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 07, 2012 06:05 PM (Tq/iS)

198 Ahem,some nasty antiCatholic vitriol in this thread.

It's become socially acceptable to engage in anti-Catholic vitriol. So break out the broad brush and start painting. I'm sure you've met one Catholic in your life that you can extrapolate into millions. It's quick, it's easy. No fuss, no muss.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at February 07, 2012 06:06 PM (phlKA)

199 tinsley

omg! your mother went to a church where people volunteered to do manual labor like paint and stuff to fix it up? wouldn't that be embarrassing to admit? you know how you said last week it was embarrassing to paint your own bathroom?........wow.........

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:06 PM (Ho2rs)

200 I think all hospitals got tons of money starting right away in "payment" for agreeing to Obamacare. And of course they were to do okay once it started, too.

Both the prez and the Catholic hospitals will lose on this issue. Obama has forced all people of conscience to think about their relationship with government; I'm sure lawsuits and protests will result. He has called everyone's bluff. The masses will learn of this even if they get their News from People Magazine.

The whole "we give you money so you're our bitch" attitude of the Feds will be decided. The Catholics will lose money, of course, because they now will be forced to turn it down or lose all credibility, but they will do okay. Obama will look like a dictator instead of a dictator wannabe.

Posted by: PJ at February 07, 2012 06:06 PM (DQHjw)

201 At the end of the day, I'm there for the fellowship with friends but I'm a Christian, not a Methodist.

Might I suggest a look at the Campbell/Stone Restoration Movement churches (Church of Christ being the one of which I'm a member, but I believe we also include Disciples of Christ and the Christian Church)?

But Paul agreed with you- that whole "I follow Paul/ I follow Apollos" thing kind of annoyed him.

This is also why I'm distrustful of large church organizations (from the Catholic hierarchy to the Southern Baptist Convention): they begin looking at members as drones to be controlled, rather than members to be led.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 06:06 PM (8y9MW)

202 I'm going to post whatever I think of.

Posted by: PoopSayer at February 07, 2012 06:07 PM (uhAkr)

203 Meow.

Meow, meow-wow meow. Mreow meow meow meow.

Posted by: Curiously Concerned Catholic at February 07, 2012 06:07 PM (ZCMDs)

204 I don't know if it will bring out the flock against Obummer in November, but I sure am enjoying spreading the hate and discontent during services and my small community groups at my parish.

Even some of the more "pro-choice" Catholics are pissed. They don't care about abortion much, but they sure as hell don't want to pay for someone to get a fetus sucked out.

Hell, even my lefty priest, who always quotes progressive Christians in his letters to the parish, said that this was "the first time he could remember the government declaring war on the Church." Never thought I'd hear that phrase in an Irish lilt, but.....Obummer CAN do miracles, I tell ya!

Posted by: bigpinkfluffybunny at February 07, 2012 06:08 PM (1Ialr)

205 I'm going to post again, not responding to anybody, but posting a follow-up to what I said earlier.

Posted by: PoopSayer at February 07, 2012 06:08 PM (uhAkr)

206 This is a little bit off topic but as far as constitutionalty goes, if Obama can dictate the type of health insurance we have to buy then he can also dictate that we all have to buy a Volt. No difference at all as far as I can see. I sure hope the supremes see it that way, too and send this piece of legislation straight into the trash where it belongs.

Posted by: Bubba at February 07, 2012 06:09 PM (Ifa6n)

207
What a loser.

Are you offended by the little black letters you see on a blog? Does it hurt you?

Posted by: Soothsayer at February 07, 2012 06:09 PM (sqkOB)

208 bubba

he is dictating that we all buy volts by the ridiculous cafe standards that can't be met by vehicles that we want.......

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:10 PM (Ho2rs)

209 Alright folks- out.

And since I didn't get to shill very much yesterday: Post up at my place as of yesterday morning. Go check it out.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 06:10 PM (8y9MW)

210 Party ID by denomination (2011, Pew):

Denomination, Rep/Lean Rep vs Dem/Lean Dem
All voters, 43% v 48%
White Protestant, 61% vs 31%
Black Protestant, 6% vs 88%
Catholic, 43% vs 48%
LDS/Mormon, 80% vs 18%
Jewish, 29% vs 65%
Unaffiliated, 27% vs 61%

Posted by: Y-not at February 07, 2012 06:10 PM (5H6zj)

211 The color red is awesome!

Posted by: PoopSayer at February 07, 2012 06:10 PM (uhAkr)

212 You binge on Taco Bell, you're gonna wake up with flames shootin outta your ass.

It is wisdom such as this that makes coming to this website worthwhile.

Posted by: Marie at February 07, 2012 06:11 PM (P9OJs)

213 Blue is a great color too. Catholics are lazy!

Posted by: PoopSayer at February 07, 2012 06:11 PM (uhAkr)

214 This is the kind of discussion that makes me wonder if we actually have a chance of getting all these 'strange bedfellows' to overcome their reservations before Nov.

Posted by: esch at February 07, 2012 06:12 PM (XOBhY)

215 Preach it soothman, preach it!

Posted by: Speaking in Tongues at February 07, 2012 06:12 PM (lVGED)

216 Ouch!

Them pixels spewing out of my screen HURT!!!

Plus I really, really, really f'n care about what you think of me.

*Who are you again?*

Posted by: Zombie Nation Endorses SMOD at February 07, 2012 06:12 PM (CP+yl)

217 210Party ID by denomination (2011, Pew):

Denomination, Rep/Lean Rep vs Dem/Lean Dem
All voters, 43% v 48%
White Protestant, 61% vs 31%
Black Protestant, 6% vs 88%
Catholic, 43% vs 48%
LDS/Mormon, 80% vs 18%
Jewish, 29% vs 65%
Unaffiliated, 27% vs 61%
Posted by: Y-not at February 07, 2012 06:10 PM (5H6zj)
Kick out the hell hole known as Massachusetts and I bet those numbers on Catholics flip at minumum.

Posted by: buzzion at February 07, 2012 06:12 PM (GULKT)

218 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at February 07, 2012 06:06 PM (8y9MW)

I'll look into that. I think I recall you mentioning that in the past.

Posted by: ErikW at February 07, 2012 06:13 PM (7uPGt)

219 "he is dictating that we all buy volts by the ridiculous cafe standards that can't be met by vehicles that we want..."

Yea, but people pushing dead Volt's home will help with the nations obesity problem. Its great exercise shoving a small car a few miles.

Consider yourself lucky they don't mandate square tires for the things.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 07, 2012 06:13 PM (Tq/iS)

220 Steyn was right on this yesterday. Basically, the bishops have been fine with every darn tenet of Obama's platform—social justice, healthcare and all the rest—and have only gotten their robes in a twist over this.

He also had a caller who made the excellent point that taking federal dollars (and I think he said something like 1/6 of all healthcare dollars go through Catholic institutions) gives Gov't Inc. a lot of leverage. Scorpion/frog/nature/etc.

Posted by: jakeman at February 07, 2012 06:13 PM (96M6e)

221 Those Unaffiliated bastards better get their mind right!

Posted by: Zombie Nation Endorses SMOD at February 07, 2012 06:13 PM (CP+yl)

222 purple avenger

thank you.....water on screen......

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:14 PM (Ho2rs)

223 LOUD NOISES! I am posting in this thread!

Posted by: PoopSayer at February 07, 2012 06:14 PM (uhAkr)

224 I am altering our deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.

Posted by: Barack Vader at February 07, 2012 06:14 PM (ZETiK)

225 Over at the Ulsterman Report, there's a post that reads: Barack Obama to Americas Catholics: I Am Your God Now.

I think that about sums it up.

Also... I know many non-politically involved Catholics who default to Democrat. These people still believe the propaganda from the media, and think that the Democrat party is the party of the "little guy" and that the Democrats will "help the downtrodden." And remember, "help the downtrodden" is pretty big in Christianity. So to them, supporting the part of abortion on demand is totally OK, because that's just a little thing compared to "helping the poor."

/not my belief, just trying to explain what I've observed

Posted by: shibumi at February 07, 2012 06:15 PM (z63Tr)

226 Awww you scared off soothsayer before he could do a "clever" comment about a new post being up.

Posted by: buzzion at February 07, 2012 06:16 PM (GULKT)

227 The Catholic bishops did not support ObamaCare. They opposed it before it became law.


Posted by: mrp

This is true. However, they loved the rest of it. The power grab, the bribery, the fake numbers, they refused to speak against it. It was a repeat of their support for all of the shitty anti-death penalty stunts.But Dems handled the abortion issue so badly, that the US Conference of Bishops said no. And they still spoke of Stupak in glowing terms.

I'm a Catholic, and I've been repeatedly repulsed by the actions of the bishops. Most of them love Obama and the leadership here is in love with Biden, even after he tried re-writing the dogma and history of the Church to shield abortion.

Posted by: Blue Hen at February 07, 2012 06:16 PM (c9Ivb)

228 Kick out the hell hole known as Massachusetts and I bet those numbers on Catholics flip at minumum.
---

Maybe not. I got tired, but at my link above Pew breaks it out by white Catholics vs non-whites (which I would think would be primarily Latinos) and they (Latinos) tilt more to the Dems.

I bet the age break out is revealing, though.

But in any event, blaming Catholics for Obama or Obamacare does not seem to be supported by the data. It's a common misconception that Catholics vote in blocs, but it doesn't look like modern Catholics do. If they did, Santorum would be winning.

Posted by: Y-not at February 07, 2012 06:16 PM (5H6zj)

229 65 Meiczyslaw how do you pronounce this name?

------------

Just like it's spelled.

Posted by: Detective Wojciehowicz at February 07, 2012 06:17 PM (FzhYM)

230 How has this now become the Catholic Churchs fault. First obama and now the conservatives. I guess Catholic bashing is just the fashion.

Posted by: James at February 07, 2012 06:17 PM (IoTd/)

231 229

LOL

Posted by: mpfs at February 07, 2012 06:19 PM (iYbLN)

232 Let's not re-write history here: the USCCB (US Council of Catholic Bishops) opposed Obamacare because they believed its funding mechanism amounted to a federal subsidy of abortion. The Catholic Health Association (Carol Keehan) said no that is not the case and lobbied hard for the law, eventually swaying people like Stupak. It was a big, divisive to-do, with charges flying that Keehan was setting up a "parallel Magisterium"; a lot of hard feelings have only slowly been smoothed over. There was a murky set of charge-and countercharge between Cardinal George of Chicago and Keehan in particular, so murky that I forget the specifics, but feel free to look it up.

So no, the Catholic Church did not support Obamacare. Though it has trended liberal (in the main) on immigration and aid to the poor, it can't be blamed for this law. In addition, the Church is opposed top the infringement of anyone's first amendment rights and did expect, and had a right to expect, that the Obama administration would follow established precedent and constitutional norms in this case.

Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 06:19 PM (hRmVa)

233 22965 Meiczyslaw how do you pronounce this name?

------------

Just like it's spelled.
Posted by: Detective Wojciehowicz at February 07, 2012 06:17 PM (FzhYM)



Yup

Posted by: Mike Krzyzewski at February 07, 2012 06:19 PM (GULKT)

234 Is everybody supposed to get over being forced to buy ins. between Aug. 1 and November?
When will the notices and then the fines start?

Posted by: DaveA at February 07, 2012 06:20 PM (FYRui)

235 What goes around comes around.

Remember a few years ago; the protestant burnings, the Jews tortured?

Now it's your turn. Be thankful we've become less bloody minded in the meantime.

/joke

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses SMOD at February 07, 2012 06:21 PM (CP+yl)

236 How has this now become the Catholic Churchs fault.
First obama and now the conservatives. I guess Catholic bashing is just
the fashion.

Posted by: James

Try reading the post, or some comments. The bishops loved Obamacare, and the local Diocesan paper ran three hate screeds against the Tea Party. If Obama had kept abortion out of it, the bishops would have signed on. SOme Chirch "leaders' tried to do so anyway.

Posted by: Blue Hen at February 07, 2012 06:21 PM (c9Ivb)

237 It was a repeat of their support for all of the shitty anti-death penalty stunts

I'd like 'life in prison' to actually mean life in prison. One of the most heinous murders to occur in my neck of the woods was a Texan who had already murdered but was let out and came to my state.

In principle, I'm opposed, yet if you don't stick a 220 volt outlet into some of these scum, they're going to kill again. Society has a right and responsibility to protect itself, if the libs (who seem to gravitate toward infecting the parole committees) won't do it.

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at February 07, 2012 06:23 PM (phlKA)

238 I'll take Hard to Pronounce Names For 200 Alex.

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses SMOD at February 07, 2012 06:23 PM (CP+yl)

239 Just be thankful I don't use my full screen name anymore. It was "Meiczyslaw Neibiezczanski".


Posted by: Meiczyslaw at February 07, 2012 05:38 PM (bjRNS)

--Brings to mind an old joke.
Q: When a woman marries a Polish man, what does she get on her wedding night that's long and hard?
A: A new last name.

Posted by: logprof at February 07, 2012 06:24 PM (ykSKg)

240 Well, the important thing is that it's nothing to get upset about.
/s

Posted by: Y-not at February 07, 2012 06:24 PM (5H6zj)

241 Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:06 PM (Ho2rs)

Why do you misrepresent everything I post? You can't be that dumb, well maybe you can.

It's embarrassing to not hire a paint contractor with the economy the way it is. You have to think of others and, if you can afford to hire the paint contractor, you should, you might just be feeding his/her family.

Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 06:24 PM (oZfic)

242 One more time:

The Catholic bishops OPPOSED Obamacare before ti was passed.

This is why that stupid Stupak guy from Michigan went into such public angst over this, and ended up voting for it because he had been promised that abortion and contraception wouldn't be included. This was, of course, a lie.

As a Catholic convert, I can assure you that this was a big upset in my parish. Our people opposed it. We also are told to have sympathy for immigrants but that the law must be obeyed. Also, it is way more work to be a Catholic than to be a Methodist (my former church).

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2012 06:24 PM (GoIUi)

243 #241 That is not what you were saying the other evening. A nd it had nothing to do with people getting jobs.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2012 06:25 PM (GoIUi)

244 243
#241 That is not what you were saying the other evening. A nd it had nothing to do with people getting jobs.


Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2012 06:25 PM (GoIUi)
When I saw all your attack posts I decided you weren't worth discussing my reasoning with. Notice, there are no further posts from me in that thread after the full throttle attacks by the moronettes.Look your all pre and post menopausal and you love to hate me and misinterpret everything I say. I understand that. But you guys make all my friends really laugh.


Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 06:28 PM (oZfic)

245 It really is funny when the troll skank that has the reading comprehension of a goldfish with ADD claims its posts are misrepresented or others can't comprehend them.

Posted by: buzzion at February 07, 2012 06:28 PM (GULKT)

246 Again, Catholics preach against abortion while widely supporting politicians who actively support it. They need to make up their fucking minds.

When I was a kid, my missal had prayers for "mother russia" to save rescue it from communism. Good times, good times...

Posted by: mike at February 07, 2012 06:28 PM (bxXRo)

247 #243 Oh, the catty insults! LOL! I am SOOO upset at what your friends think.

Pitiful.


Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2012 06:29 PM (GoIUi)

248 245
It really is funny when the troll skank that has the reading
comprehension of a goldfish with ADD claims its posts are misrepresented
or others can't comprehend them.

Posted by: buzzion at February 07, 2012 06:28 PM (GULKT)
Wow, you are the most unhappiest person on the internet. Voted by my friends.

Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 06:29 PM (oZfic)

249
It's embarrassing to not hire a paint contractor with the economy the way it is. You have to think of others and, if you can afford to hire the paint contractor, you should, you might just be feeding his/her family.

You're a fucking idiot.

Posted by: Dumb_Blonde at February 07, 2012 06:29 PM (ptQn3)

250 But you guys make all my friends really laugh.




Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 06:28 PM (oZfic)



You don't have any friends, except for the crazy voices in your pointy little head. You sit alone in your tiny little hovel and dream of having a life.
Go away.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 07, 2012 06:29 PM (UOM48)

251 You're a fucking idiot.


Posted by: Dumb_Blonde at February 07, 2012 06:29 PM (ptQn3)
I'm the idiot? And you've revealed all your personal stuff on all those over night threads and I'm the idiot?

Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 06:30 PM (oZfic)

252 I really don't care what your anti-semitic friends think skank. Did you ever thank your mom for making you famous by telling Michelle Bachmann about how Gardasil made you a retard?

Posted by: buzzion at February 07, 2012 06:31 PM (GULKT)

253 wow tinsley

we are obligated to hire painters? really? since when? you are an idiot....and your parents should be ashamed of their issue........

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:31 PM (Ho2rs)

254 tinsley

what college did you opt out of because of the vaccinations?

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:32 PM (Ho2rs)

255 Wow, you are the most unhappiest person on the internet. Voted by my friends.



Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 06:29 PM (oZfic)



We don't give a shit what you think, why would be care what your imaginary friends thing?

Posted by: Tami at February 07, 2012 06:32 PM (X6akg)

256
I'm the idiot? And you've revealed all your personal stuff on all those over night threads and I'm the idiot?
Since your reading comprehension is so poor I'll repeat myself.
Yes, you're a fucking idiot.
Also pathetic and, I'll wager, mentally unstable. Get some help.

Posted by: Dumb_Blonde at February 07, 2012 06:33 PM (ptQn3)

257 tinsley, you 'tard.

I painted my laundry room not long ago. A nice sage green. It's probably three times the size of your apartment.


Screw off.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 07, 2012 06:34 PM (UOM48)

258 guess what tinsley

if you are female, which i have my suspicions......you are either pre or post menopausal.... you understand this yes?

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:35 PM (Ho2rs)

259
The archbishop who oversees American Catholic military chaplains
worldwide claims the U.S. Army violated his rights by stifling a
pastoral letter condemning the Obama administration’s contraception
mandate.
Archbishop Timothy P. Broglio stands “firm in the belief,
based on legal precedent,” that the Army defied his rights to free
speech and free exercise of religion, according to a Feb. 3 statement
from the military archdiocese.
U.S. Catholic military chaplains
around the country were initially told to disobey their archbishop’s
instruction to read a pastoral letter from the pulpit at all Sunday
Masses on Jan. 28-29.
Although an agreement was eventually reached
allowing the letter to be read, a key passage urging Catholics to avoid
complying with the “unjust law” was removed.

Posted by: Archbishop Timothy P. Broglio at February 07, 2012 06:35 PM (e8kgV)

260 shame on you jane!!!! how could you paint? when there are so many out of work painters!!!!!! ///////

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:35 PM (Ho2rs)

261 258
guess what tinsley



if you are female, which i have my suspicions......you are either pre or post menopausal.... you understand this yes?

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:35 PM (Ho2rs)

------

For the win!

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 07, 2012 06:36 PM (UOM48)

262 "Author Eric Metaxas Compares Contraceptive Mandate to Germany’s Pre-Holocaust Policies"
from the blaze: http:// www. the blaze.com/stories/author -eric - metaxas -compares - govt - contraceptive - mandate - to - pre - holocaust - policies-in - germany /

Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 06:36 PM (oZfic)

263
"...essentially they agreed to support an infringement on others' freedoms just so
long as their own would be preserved."

The classic template of the "useful idiot". Wasn't it Will Rogers who said, "There's a sucker born every minute?" Well, let's just say that the birth rate has ramped up since then...

Posted by: Optimizer at February 07, 2012 06:36 PM (As94z)

264 jane d'oh

not bad for a haus frau..........

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:36 PM (Ho2rs)

265 Aaannnd "it's" left with nothing but "its" ridiculous links no one cares about.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 07, 2012 06:37 PM (UOM48)

266 First, the AMA doesn’t represent very many physicians any more:

This long-lived and generally respected organization, one that represented more than 70 percent of American doctors in the 1960s, has become a shell of its former respectable self, now representing less that 15 percent of America’s practicing physicians.

Posted by: Jared Loughner at February 07, 2012 06:38 PM (e8kgV)

267 No one clicked your links when they could be hyperlinked because of your preference for gay porn. No one is going to take the time to remove the spaces you catpiss wreaking idiot.

Posted by: buzzion at February 07, 2012 06:38 PM (GULKT)

268 USCCB should be US Conference of Catholic Bishops. I always guess that long. But anyway, back to the subject at hand. House painting??

Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 06:38 PM (hRmVa)

269 Anyone objecting to curious' brand of tedious linking, invincible ignorance, and terminal stupidity is "unhappy". We know the formula, you babbling delusional fuckwit.

I do wonder what happened to its vaunted MIT-genius-programmed filter, though.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 07, 2012 06:40 PM (09Kz8)

270 norman

tinsley.....insulted people who paint their own homes last week....it said that was embarrassing and should never be admitted.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:41 PM (Ho2rs)

271 "The Catholic Church Has Launched A Fight Against Obama That's Unprecedented In American History"

from business insider: http: // w ww . business insider . c om/the-catholic-churchs - fight - a gainst - obama - is - totally - unprecedented - i n -a merican - history - 2012 - 2

Posted by: tinsley at February 07, 2012 06:41 PM (oZfic)

272
...You have to think of others and, if you can afford to hire the paint contractor, you should, you might just be feeding his/her family. ..."

Wow. Another in a series of endless prophetic moments for Ayn Rand - this could be a quote straight out of that 60-year-old book. All the characters pushing the country into oblivion spokeEXACTLY this way.

Posted by: Optimizer at February 07, 2012 06:41 PM (As94z)

273 242 One more time:

The Catholic bishops OPPOSED Obamacare before ti was passed.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2012 06:24 PM (GoIUi)
______

Thanks for pointing that out. Our Diocese spoke out against Obamacare at the time. That's why Fr. Jenkins of Notre Dame took so much condemnation... and looks like an utter fool now.

Posted by: theCork at February 07, 2012 06:42 PM (hbAdE)

274 <When I was a kid, my missal had prayers for "mother russia" to save rescue it from communism. Good times, good times...>

I have two of those (St. Joseph) missals - one was my father's, the other one was a confirmation gift. The prayer is actually for the "conversion" of Russia.

Catholicism in the US runs the whole gamut - from the Maryknollers and the Berrigans to prelates like Archbishop Chaput (Philadelphia) and my own bishop, Michael F. Burbidge. The best thing to do for politicking bishops is to pray for them, as I hope to God they pray for me

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 06:42 PM (HjPtV)

275 optimizer

it is not capable of grasping rand's philosophy.....it believes it's entitled to everything........

Posted by: phoenixgirl....smod is my candidate at February 07, 2012 06:43 PM (Ho2rs)

276 Moar! Moar links ! Moar ultra-important links with random spaces! Everyone clicks on those!

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 07, 2012 06:43 PM (09Kz8)

277 Sorry it has taken so long to reply, mrp, I had to commute home then catch up on the thread.

I am glad you noted the bishops' opposition to the Senate bill in 2010. They had previously pushed and pushed for this law to pass, and only reversed themselves and withdrew their support at the legislative equivalent of two minutes to midnight. When it was too late.

Why did they do that?

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 06:43 PM (DbybK)

278 phoenixgirl

Thanks- I think I'll stay out of that one while my dyslexia is kicking in!

Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 06:44 PM (hRmVa)

279 Burn the Witch!!

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 06:45 PM (CP+yl)

280 And you've revealed all your personal stuff on all those over night threads and I'm the idiot?

You sound like a mentally unbalanced stalker. Are you sure that your 'friends' think 'we' are funny, or that you are funny?

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at February 07, 2012 06:45 PM (phlKA)

281 >>its vaunted MIT-genius-programmed filter

Plugged up tighter than Barney Frank's pool boy.

Posted by: Da Polish Plumma from Poughkeepsie at February 07, 2012 06:46 PM (ZCMDs)

282 They're not laughing WITH you.

They're laughing AT you.

Or the evil clown sneaking up behind you with a knife LOOK OUT!!!!

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 06:47 PM (CP+yl)

283 I really don't understand why the Church is so shocked. The handwriting was on the wall when the SCoaMF demanded Notre Dame cover up all religious symbols before he spoke there. And Notre Dame complied...which was an outrage in my view.

And now the Church is shocked...SHOCKED!...that the SCoamF doesn't respect them now??

My prediction? The SCoaMF will give the Church lip service promising to give them an exemption, the Church will cave, and after he gets re-elected the edict will be back in full force. Score another notch in the SCoaMFs tyranny belt.

Posted by: RoxyDoxy at February 07, 2012 06:48 PM (ZzhA3)

284 I think an interesting question would be:

Did the Catholic Church ADVOCATE for Obamacare,

or

Did the Church REACT to Obamacare once it looked to be inevitable?

Posted by: Helpful Pundit at February 07, 2012 06:49 PM (UjHDI)

285
I'm not a stalker you're a stalker! I'm reporting you to the FBI and adding this to the file I keep on you.


And then I'm going to monitor the Facebook group and Yahoo group that you all don't know I'm secretly a member offor anything you write so I can tell my friend who is writing about a book about all the mean things all you selfish old bitches say about me.

Posted by: tinsley - totally not a stalker at February 07, 2012 06:50 PM (GULKT)

286 After they've haggled over the price and what they will or won't do, it seems a waste of time for them to complain when you call them a whore.

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 06:51 PM (CP+yl)

287 MOMMMMY! We're hungry!!!!!!


Posted by: tinsley's 50 cats at February 07, 2012 06:52 PM (UOM48)

288 SCoaMF will give the Church lip service

heh heh.

Only if they give HIM some "LIP SERVICE" back. *wink wink* nudge nudge.*

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 06:53 PM (CP+yl)

289 And, about Stupak; remember this? http://ace.mu.nu/archives/299668.php

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 06:53 PM (DbybK)

290 Laura, I'm disappointed in you. Yourfirstpoint is a piece of hateful nonsense (Catholics thought they, and only they, would get a religious exemption? Really? I guess if you want to get a good jab in, a lie will do as well as the truth.) I would have expected a more well-thought-out commentary from you on the behavior of the Catholic higher-ups and liberals who want to be counted among of theCool Kids.The faithful Catholics who fight them every day don't needvitriol adding to the pain and shame. I really thought better of you than this.

Posted by: Ticklebee at February 07, 2012 06:54 PM (ImLKS)

291 [28 So what you're basically saying is they thought they had bought an indulgence from the Obama administration?Somewhere Martin Luther is pointing and laughing.]

One of the Catholic churches I attend never ever ever mentions anything to do with contraception, or respect for life, zippo nada. Have to go elsewhere if you want to hear about the March for Life. This particular church is very close to the democrat political establishment in town, and the politicians make a big deal out of being religious and such, but it's all for show.

The Catholic hierarchy saw billions of dollars just waiting to be spent via ObamaCare, and they believed the administration when they said there would be an exemption. Add in the socialism and social justice and downright communistic leanings of the Church and many of its followers, and it's not a surprise that the CC supported ObamaCare enthusiastically. LauraW is exactly right, everybody else's rights went right out the window when ObamaCare came to town.

I know lots of Catholics, and I don't know any who are conservative. Some are quietly pro-life, but none are conservative. Will this jolt some of them into at least thinking about their choice in November? Maybe..........

Posted by: Boots at February 07, 2012 06:55 PM (neKzn)

292 I know lots of Catholics, and I don't know any who are conservative. Some are quietly pro-life, but none are conservative. Will this jolt some of them into at least thinking about their choice in November? Maybe
You are in the wrong parish my friend

Posted by: kdny at February 07, 2012 06:57 PM (Q2Fgg)

293 So control buttons are fake now?

Posted by: kdny at February 07, 2012 06:58 PM (Q2Fgg)

294 No. They just don't DO anything.

AARP should be having second thoughts about now.

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 07:01 PM (CP+yl)

295 html is mostly disabled kdny. If you want any italics or bold you have to use [ i ] [ / i ] etc. with the spaces removed. Entered in manually. Also stick 2 or three extra paragraph breaks in to be safe. Some asshole kept trying to break the blog and so it had to be disabled. Hyperlinking will not work in comments at all even trying to use [ ]

Posted by: buzzion at February 07, 2012 07:01 PM (GULKT)

296 shillelagh, you're a Catholic in Baltimore County? We should hang out, dude.

Posted by: Masturbatin' Pete at February 07, 2012 07:02 PM (qyB3P)

297 Yeah, kdny....html buttons don't work because of a troll that used them to screw up the blog.

Use [ i ] and [ /i] for italics.....and all the rest. (Take out the spaces I put in to show you what to use). You need to insert extra line breaks too.

I seriously wish ace would put up some sticky announcement about this that stays at the top of the blog for people who don't know about it.

Posted by: Tami at February 07, 2012 07:02 PM (X6akg)

298 >>>I really thought better of you than this.

I didn't. Anybody who knows lauraw, knows she is a dirty dirty pirate whore.

Posted by: mike at February 07, 2012 07:02 PM (bxXRo)

299 Have had about enough. I'm reporting you all to ATTTAAACCCKKK WAATTCCHHh and let them sort this out.

Posted by: Ammo Dump at February 07, 2012 07:02 PM (WUWb9)

300 >>Why did they do that?<<

Why did they do that? Like most Americans, I suppose Catholic leaders wanted quality, universal health care at a reasonable price for everyone. Unlike a majority of Americans, Catholic religious leaders also wanted such care available to illegal immigrants in this country. And they were lied to, by Pelosi, and Stupak, and led down the garden path by Barry at NDU, and then there was that Kmiec fellow a' swearing up and down that Obama was sincere. Finally, after the Dem leadership refused to budge on a broad and comprehensive conscience clause, and seeing that Stupak was flip-flopping, and Pelosi was being Pelosi, even Cardinal George could see that they were being played for fools by the pols. So they bailed.

Please remember, in the winter of 2010, the Dems owned the White House, the Senate, and the House. The USCCB held a weak hand, and with the politically-vulnerable Catholic-affiliated health care providers responsible for 16% of the country's health needs, the bishops did the best they could with what they had.

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 07:03 PM (HjPtV)

301 <i>This is a Test</i>

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 07:04 PM (CP+yl)

302 And This is a Test

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 07:05 PM (CP+yl)

303 301
<i>This is a Test</i>



Use [ ].

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 07, 2012 07:05 PM (UOM48)

304 This also is also a Test

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 07:06 PM (CP+yl)

305 Will there be cookies at the end of the test?

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 07, 2012 07:06 PM (UOM48)

306 Thanks Jane, I was checking if the brackets were a place holder in the comment for <' but they actually meant to use the brackets.

Which was the reason for the test.

Over under on how long before that gets taken away?

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 07:07 PM (CP+yl)

307 You have to look up the cookies in your browser cache.

Hope you haven't been visiting any "risque" sites lately.

You never know what those people'll leave behind.

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 07:09 PM (CP+yl)

308 I live in a large metro area, and have a list of seven Catholic churches I attend, based upon my own list of preferences on any weekend: the priest who will be celebrating the Mass, the time of day -- from Saturday night's Mass of Anticipation to the last chance Mass on Sunday at 5pm, the genre of music that each parish features in its different masses - from chant to jazz to traditional to German to Spanish tomodern/boring to none at all for the really early Mass of the day.
I know manyCatholics who are quietly pro-life. But they also support big government activism and various social justice and socialistic programs. As Dennis Prager says, they think FDR is still leading the democrat party. And none of these people were alive for FDR's presidency, they've just been programmed to think the left way is the best way.

Perhaps this outrage will be enough to slap some sense into them. I dunno, as somebody mentioned above, maybe Obama will cave and carve out a multi-year exemption instead of the one-year exemption Sebelius has granted.

Posted by: Boots at February 07, 2012 07:10 PM (neKzn)

309 >>Did Catholic organizations support Obamacare because they either assumed or were told that they would get an exception based on their religious beliefs?

>> Because if that is true, then essentially they agreed to support an
infringement on others' freedoms just so long as their own would be
preserved. How did they think that would eventually work out?


At the heart of it all, liberalism is mostly about screwing the other guy.

Posted by: Potsie at February 07, 2012 07:14 PM (aQF/7)

310 Hey, not fair, I had that thought first here! Great post, LauraW. Right on target. The USCCB is all set to get their exemption without any apparent concern for Catholic (or anyone else who has a moral objection to abortion) business owners having to now pay for this coverage for their employees. It's just as much a moral evil for a lay person as a priest.

Posted by: Branford at February 07, 2012 07:14 PM (dye7G)

311 Countdown to the media bringing up the whole Bart Stupak thing where we had 'round the clock coverage for a month waiting for Obama to sign an executive order that obamacare wouldn't force Catholic hospitals and others, etc, to perform abortions of any kind....

oh wait... nevermind. Down the memory hole. Kinda like his promise to cut the deficit in half during his first term... which he said during his second week in office LOL!

(just think if Bush had done it... ha)


We should go full Alinsky on Obama. He sees himself as a technocrat. He signed a piece of paper promising things with the full backing of the state just like a good busy body bureaucrat would.

Now Obama is ignoring it. Hmmmm.. not a very good technocrat, is he? I'll be waiting for this question at the next whitehouse briefing... riiiight

I haven't seen such disregard for something written on paper since... ohhh... Munich, 1938. Hitlers foreign minister asked him if this would change the timeline for retaking Danzig... Hitler replied 'its just a worthless piece of paper! ha"

Obama did the same exact thing. Probably planned it too. Ladies and Gentlemen we have a bloodthirsty tyrant in the whitehouse. I feel sick knowing our President is actually waging war on his own country. I never thought my mind would go there. I'm ashamed.

I think Obama wants to go down in history as being the first President to break the back of organized religion in this country. He doesn't care about re-election. He's a sick, sick man... and he's got half the country in zombie mode with media in tow, supporting him while the cliff approaches faster and faster.

resist

Posted by: What a Jerk at February 07, 2012 07:17 PM (bcmD0)

312 mrp, why didn't they object to the unworkable and hideously expensive nature of this socialization scheme, which conservatives were warning about? Why did they only object when it was obvious they weren't going to get their special carve-out regarding abortion and contraception?

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 07:18 PM (DbybK)

313 I don't know why it should. They didn't learn anything from Mussolini or Hitler.

Course that was over in Fortress Europa so maybe the mackerel snappers over here weren't paying attention.

Disclaimer:
Any snide, snarky or otherwise vindictive sounding labels in reference to the Holy Roman Catholic Church and their adherents should be taken in the spiritu they were meant which is snide, snarky and vindictive but said with true Christian LOVE in my heart.

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 07:18 PM (CP+yl)

314 If you do not live what you believe, you will end up believing what you live.

Posted by: Some dead Catholic archbishop at February 07, 2012 07:18 PM (ykSKg)

315 Once again, I will post that the Bishops did NOT back Obamacare.

Look it up. They didn't.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2012 07:18 PM (GoIUi)

316 When the state officially sanctions buggery and bestiality, there will no longer be a need for contraceptives and abortion, so let's all give Obama that second term, shall we?

Posted by: Fritz at February 07, 2012 07:19 PM (TsXFk)

317 "Perhaps this outrage will be enough to slap some sense into them."

It's very possible. Bear in mind that the post-VII Church was very liberal, but that was already changing before this. New priests are more theologically conservative, and the appointment of bishops has improved under Pope Benedict. This slap in the face should make Catholic higher-ups wary of the Democratic party, which is becoming the secular party in America and which has shown itself in the comments around this issue to be hostile and insulting to the religious. The lefty blogs stink of undisguised bigotry and the Democrats are fast becoming a party of hate. It will be interesting to see what kind of campaign they run against a Mormon nominee- I'm expecting a lot of ugliness, but that will work against them if we call them on it. They find prejudice in some CNN talkers anti-soccer tweets while they traffic in the most vile anti-religious hatred.

Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 07:22 PM (hRmVa)

318 #312 The Church is not in the business of writing or objecting about policy except where it concerns SIN. Expensive policy is stupid, but it is not a sin.
Abortion and contraception and euthanasia are sins, which is why the Church couldn't go along with it.

This is an apparent misunderstanding about the Church. The Bishops are primarily teachers whose mission is to shepherd their people and keep them from error and sin. They are not politicians or government experts.

I really am rather hurt that you would act like they were only concerned about their exemption. They are the largest religious group concerned with this. but when they bring up the First Amendment, they speak for every faith.


Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2012 07:24 PM (GoIUi)

319 "Because it seems to me that there may actually be a lot of other
employers not officially connected to the Catholic church who feel the
same way about being forced to supply abortifacients to their employees."

This.

Posted by: Random at February 07, 2012 07:25 PM (YiE0S)

320 Big Government meets Big Church.

And as far as the answer to Laura's question 1, the answer is no. Catholics do not think they should get the sole legal protection. In fact, there are many conservative/libertarian legal types preparing to argue alongside Church attorneys. The current Catholic meme is that it's a First Amendment fight.

Posted by: kevlarchick at February 07, 2012 07:26 PM (J1U5w)

321 The president WANTS the Catholic church to stop providing insurance for its employees, and this is as good a way to force them to do it as any. The church is a large employer, through its schools, hospitals, and charities. If all those people go on socialized medicine, it increases the power of the state. The president is a Marxist who wants the government to control medicine. The way to do that is to make private insurance so expensive (or in this case, morally unacceptable) that is becomes the exception rather than the rule.
As a Catholic, I agree with you Laura. The church hierarchy was scandalously supportive of violating people's rights not to have to buy a product as a condition of citizenship before it was _their_ ox being gored. Liberals think the church is conservative. Unfortuntely, far too much of it is not.

Posted by: Palandine at February 07, 2012 07:29 PM (g7D8V)

322 As a commenter noted above, about one-sixth of US healthcare expenditures go through Catholic hospitals. My tinfoil conspiracy hat has been telling me lately that the government has its eye on all those Catholic hospitals.

What a great way to shove single payer down America's throat, just take over all those suddenly available hospitals that had to either 1) perform abortions, or 2) close their doors...........

In states like MA that have forced Catholic Charities to either 1) place babies in adoptive home with same-sex couples, or 2) stop doing adoptive placements, CC has stopped doing adoptions.

Posted by: Boots at February 07, 2012 07:31 PM (neKzn)

323 And to answer Laura's question at 312, socialism is not against Church doctrine. Abortion, euthanasia, and contraception are. Hence the unified howl.

Posted by: kevlarchick at February 07, 2012 07:34 PM (J1U5w)

324 Liberals are liberals first.

I am Catholic.. and here in the good ole midwest.. those liberals dont speak for us.

Posted by: Jumbo Jogging Shrimp at February 07, 2012 07:35 PM (qjUnn)

325 Puleez! Those crazy black Catholic churches in Chicago are as far left as you can get. And the church hierarchy is afraid of them, too.

Posted by: mike at February 07, 2012 07:37 PM (bxXRo)

326 Thank you for the clarification, Miss Marple. I certainly was not interested in hurting any Catholics with the questions in this post. I am frustrated with a church whose original mission seems to be getting subverted by lefty-activist clergy.

The fact remains that these bishops did in fact press for HCR for a long time before they finally reversed themselves in the eleventh hour (yes, only over this conscientious objection). They involved themselves in trying to shape public policy, and became de facto political activists.

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 07:39 PM (DbybK)

327 Crazy black Catholic churches in Chicago? Do you really mean that to be plural, or are you talking about the single parish of St. Sabina and the singular Fr. Pflegger? I don't know what world you are living in, but he is not that influential, and nobody is particularly afraid of him.

Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 07:41 PM (hRmVa)

328 >Why did they only object when it was obvious they weren't going to get
their special carve-out regarding abortion and contraception?<

LauraW, where did you get the idea that there was going to be a "special carve-out" just for Catholic institutions? The USCCB fought for a general religious conscience exemption which was part of the House of Representative's version of the Health Care Reform package. The precedents were the Hyde Amendment and other legislative acts banning government subsidies for abortion services. To characterize the Catholic bishops as promoting a "carve-out" is specious. Do you have any evidence that the Catholic-supported legislation in House's version of the Health Care Reform bill would have exempted only Catholic institutions and services?

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 07:43 PM (HjPtV)

329 Look, I just don't see socialism as congruent with Christianity at all. At all. It looks for all the world like Catholic clergy who entreat the government to comfort the afflicted is basically trying to palm their own mission off on others.

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 07:45 PM (DbybK)

330 Obama's aim is to:

1. Set Americans against each other over taxes and benefits paid out
2. Destroy the safety nets sustaining those who actually need them
3. Strike fear into those who would naturally oppose him
4. Isolate those who do
5. Freeze corporate fluidity
6. Fragment our Defenses
7. Give aid to our enemies (his actual electorate)
8. Remove institutional and legal obstacles to abolishment (or disempowerment) of the legislative and judicial branches
9. Oversee a Balkanization of the States into Districts
10. Seize the means of Communication and Commerce as a prelude to the inevitable tyranny.

At least that's what it might look like to a neutral observer.

What will actually happen is anybody's guess right now.

Good luck.

Posted by: Zombie Hoard Endorses Any Means to bring about Sweet Sweet Oblivion. at February 07, 2012 07:47 PM (CP+yl)

331 I believe St. Stalin has a few sister churches. Also, Pflegger shd have been transferred decades ago. He preaches against what I believe are sacraments. He is always crossing lines and gets his hand slapped at most if at all. You're tolerance of him is sort of sickening to be frank.

Posted by: mike at February 07, 2012 07:47 PM (bxXRo)

332 319 "Because it seems to me that there may actually be a lot of other
employers not officially connected to the Catholic church who feel the
same way about being forced to supply abortifacients to their employees."

This.
Posted by: Random at February 07, 2012 07:25 PM (YiE0S)

I know a few owners who are Catholic and they specifically buy policies that do not include abortion and contraception.
But.. Obamacare takes that freedom away from everyone.

Posted by: Jumbo Jogging Shrimp at February 07, 2012 07:47 PM (qjUnn)

333 >>>Look, I just don't see socialism as congruent with Christianity at all. At all. It looks for all the world like Catholic clergy who entreat the government to comfort the afflicted is basically trying to palm their own mission off on others.

Preach it, sister!

Posted by: mike at February 07, 2012 07:49 PM (bxXRo)

334 I do not, mrp, excellent point. I concede.

Do you think this exemption would have covered every person, even employers who were not particularly religious, but who simply were personally opposed to abortion/ abortion drugs? How would someone be able to 'prove' their conscience, outside of a religious institution that expressly and traditionally opposed such contraception?

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 07:49 PM (DbybK)

335 329 Look, I just don't see socialism as congruent with Christianity at all. At all. It looks for all the world like Catholic clergy who entreat the government to comfort the afflicted is basically trying to palm their own mission off on others.
Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 07:45 PM (DbybK)

You have got to be kidding.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Catholic charities and Catholic hospitals.

Posted by: Jumbo Jogging Shrimp at February 07, 2012 07:50 PM (qjUnn)

336 I am Catholic and followed this pathetic tale since inception . The bishops signed on to it because they pretty much put a whole hell of a lot of stock in what s called the whole cloth argument . That means you have to take the totality of the good into account. It s bullshit as they privately compromise where they cannot. At face value they looked at the benefit to the poor ( and LauraW that means all the poor, non cat-licks as well) and turned a blind eye to the potential downside. Who knew the strongest advocate for the protection of Post Partum abortions might just be a little pro abortion in his leanings on this? They cannot compromise but they did. No doctor of the faith I but I think the teachings on abortion is quite clear and inviolate. Yet the bishops at a minimum were willing to roll the dice . That witch in charge of Catholic hospitals has a nice little pen she got from the president at the signing. The poor chap at Notre Dame is chagrined. You remember ND , right ? That is where Coumo kicked off the famous " I am personally opposed to abortion but... " speech. Certain rules of the Catholic church are absolute. If you are a factor in abortion you first get a private warning then you get a public rebuke. Then, if you continue you get excommunicated. Period. Full stop. Biden? Pelosi? Kennedy? Sibelius ? All unequivocally gone . In theory. Plenty of folks on our side of the aisle would be smoked as well. Cowards. Unfortunately a good deal of the old guard in the RC Church are liberals or cowards. Good news is that is changing ever so slowly. There is a " fuck them " attitude among some catholic conservative circles but cooler heads say support them. I tend to agree.

Posted by: Mac at February 07, 2012 07:51 PM (qW6rd)

337 >How would someone be able to 'prove' their conscience, outside of a
religious institution that expressly and traditionally opposed such
contraception?<

I'm too lazy to look up the specific language of the House version of HCR, but the Catholic news articles from the time described the exemptions as covering the insurance provider, the insurance purchasers, and individuals. Individuals had to be protected if they refused to be complicit in an abortion, contracept, or other activity that violated one's religious beliefs. That is doctors, nurses, pharmacists, etc.

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 07:57 PM (HjPtV)

338 Sorry Mike for coming on so strong. I think Plegger is an embarrassment and that his suspension should have stuck. I just think that he's small change and one of the dinosaurs that are lurching towards extinction as the Church recovers from liberation theology, so I mostly just roll my eyes at clergy like him and Gumbleton. I don't defend him at all, I just mostly ignore him. He is yesterdays man- they all are yesterday's men, Kung, the Natl Cath Fishwrap people etc

Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 07:58 PM (hRmVa)

339 mpfs at February 07, 2012 05:24 PM (iYbLN
Do you live in Scranton pa?
BTW as a union member and dropping out Katlic, I'm being robbed and have no fucking say where my money goes. I agree w/about 1% of both sets of teeves!

Posted by: hutch1200 at February 07, 2012 08:03 PM (1A/j8)

340 I converted to Catholicism, and I take it seriously. There is nothing easy or lazy about it.

Posted by: Blacksheep at February 07, 2012 05:45 PM (8/DeP)


Correct. Soothsayer should be ashamed of himself.

Look, I just don't see socialism as congruent with
Christianity at all. At all. It looks for all the world like Catholic
clergy who entreat the government to comfort the afflicted is basically
trying to palm their own mission off on others.

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 07:45 PM (DbybK)

I'd like you to count those served by the Catholic schools, hospitals, nursing homes, colleges and universities, and social service agencies and compare it to the number served by other Christian (heck, add up all the other religiously based) entities of the same kind. OK, de-italicizing format isn't working but am sure this'll be clear enough.
Yes, there are millions of us Catholics who take our faith seriously, give oodles of time to our church and to help others and who will not stand for this or anything else that compromises our consciences. (And in case anyone would care to ask, I've formally given up marriage in order to serve the Church, a vocation called consecrated virginity, so please be so kind as not to tell me, or any of us who takes our Faith seriously, how easy and effortless being a Catholic is.)
Been on this forum many times and am not used to seeing this kind of anti-Catholicism here. Some of you -- how do I say this gently -- ought to be a bit ashamed of yourselves.
Personally I think Obama wants people of faith to be at each others' throats over this. If from no higher motive (like, Jesus would like us Christians to be as unified as our commitment to truth will permit), let's at least not give the socialists who spit on the Constitution the satisfaction.


Posted by: just another Catholic who's sick of it at February 07, 2012 08:05 PM (whMsz)

341 The Soviets desperately tried for decades to suppress the Catholic church's influence in eastern Europe and Russia, and ultimately the church proved more resilient that the commies. However, the Eastern European catholic church was never as infiltrated to the degree by commies as the American's have become.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 07, 2012 06:05 PM (Tq/iS)
------------------------As a Catholic I believethis Obamacare decreeis the best thing that could have happened to the Catholic Church. The hierarchyhave identified with one political party to our detriment, compromising the very mission of the Church. Having to face the reality of what a hostile government can do should be a huge wakeup call.

Posted by: Decaf at February 07, 2012 08:12 PM (Aae+h)

342 >>>Because if that is true, then essentially they agreed to support an infringement on others' freedoms just so long as their own would be preserved.
Yup. That's how they divide and conquer us --through our own lack of respect for the rights of others.
Online poker ban? Fuck you. Poker isn't productive. Eat shit, you scummy poker players.
Smoking ban? Piss off you dirty fucking smokers. Smelly-assed, cough bags.
Sin taxes? Yeah, so what? I don't drink. Let the drunks pay more. Fuckin' drunks.
Soda tax? The weight loss will do you good, you pre-diabetic fatass.


Posted by: Warden at February 07, 2012 08:20 PM (ZQS82)

343 OK; this is really interesting to me.
If the Church is not concerned with politics, but with sin, then why Obamacare? Why not publicly support the market-based reforms the Republicans were suggesting? No need for conscience exemptions- which, given by government, can also be taken away- because all people would choose for themselves anyway.

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 08:20 PM (DbybK)

344 Laura W because they were bitchslapped. Wish there was a better explanation. See Massachusetts. Romneycare did something similar. The local bishop acceded and hoped folks would use their conscience.

Posted by: Mac at February 07, 2012 08:25 PM (qW6rd)

345 I wonder why those who know how to do such things aren't producing ads that show waiver after waiver after waiver being given to Obama's union pals and big donors, then, "No waiver for you!" to religious objectors. That'd get Joe Average Voter riled up.

I think Obama's overstepped his three-dimensional chess strategy (or maybe it was just a plain old Chicago-thug power grab) with this move. He's such a narcissist he thinks he can give a few speeches and the Catholic Church will fold under his eloquent persuasive "gifts."

This ain't going away and he's about to find out just how not going away it is.


Posted by: just another Catholic who's sick of it at February 07, 2012 08:27 PM (whMsz)

346 Laura, the Church lobbied strenuously against Obamacare before its passage. Does it matter so much that they didn't couch their opposition in specifically free-market language when they fought against it as hard as they did? Sure, Keehan and other individual Catholics were on the other side, but they are not the Church and don't speak for the Church, the bishops do. The most the bishops ever said before coming out against Obama was that they were not opposed to the very idea of reform but that the details were important- and they came out against those details. Again, the USCCB opposed Obamcare before its passage and fought against it. I think you are being unfair to the Church and the bishops here.

Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 08:32 PM (hRmVa)

347 >Why not publicly support the market-based reforms the Republicans were
suggesting? No need for conscience exemptions- which, given by
government, can also be taken away- because all people would choose for
themselves anyway.<

Well, they should ! And if conservatives take the White House and the Senate in 2012 with a mandate to eliminate ObamaCare, then the opportunity would be ripe for a replacement system that would be market-based and cost-effective.

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 08:33 PM (HjPtV)

348 just another Catholic who's sick of it at February
You seem to have a very well thought out position on this. Thank you for your service to your calling. God Bless. My hope is that you can change things from the inside. Godspeed.

Posted by: hutch1200 at February 07, 2012 08:38 PM (1A/j8)

349 #343 I would recommend that you read some Catholic sites to get a perspective I would suggest WDTPRD.com (Father Z's site) to get a perspective on traditional Catholicism, as opposed to the Pelosi brand.

There is no doubt that liberals infiltrated the Church back in the 60's and 70's. This is the time when many of the sisters gave up wearing habits and the American Church almost went into open rebellion, reinterpreting Vatican II to mean"almost anything goes."

The Barque of Peter is slow to move, and it is moving in the right direction. As more Bishops retire and more traditional priests are elevated, the Church will become less liberal politically. But they will always push for care for the poor.

Concern for the poor is part of our mission. Politics is really not, except where it directly affects something, like this. Yes, there are priests and bishops who stick their noses into government, and sometimes that is not what I would wish them to do. But sometimes they DO need to speak publicly, as they did in Poland, and as they are doing now.

Our Church doesn't reserve its help to only Catholics. We have aided many homeless people, transients, and down-on-their-luck people who come to our parish seeking help. As our Monsignor told us, the last poor black man who came to our Church looking for bus fare got a motel room for the night and a ride to the bus station downtown with bus fare, and the guy said, "You know, you can always count on the Catholics to help a guy out."

So I would rather belong to a Church like that, even if they sometimes make mistakes, because, like all of us, the bishops do their best, but they are humans, too.


Posted by: Miss Marple at February 07, 2012 08:43 PM (GoIUi)

350 I'm curious about drug free work places, are they forced to provide medicinal marijuana to employees under their health providers in the states where it is legal?

Posted by: Eric at February 07, 2012 08:48 PM (nDkKs)

351 Eric at February 07, 2012 08:48 PM
Great, stoned whores teaching at St. Mary Magdelines.

Posted by: hutch1200 at February 07, 2012 08:57 PM (1A/j8)

352 mrp; I think there are two very good reasons the bishops will never support a market-based reform.
The funding that goes to their hospitals and other organizations will be threatened by the Dems as payback.
And, many of them actually are of an expressly euro-socialist bent and find market solutions and deregulation anathema.

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 09:01 PM (DbybK)

353 Pinetta= Panetta

Your meaning was perfectly clear with correction.

Posted by: King Putt III at February 07, 2012 09:18 PM (Onw8c)

354 @353

Not King Putt.

Me, Hammersmith


Posted by: Hammersmith Police at February 07, 2012 09:22 PM (Onw8c)

355 I solemnly swear that there will be no favoritism in my administration. All will be treated equally. SMOD

Finally, a campaign promise I can believe will be kept.

Posted by: Hammersmith Police at February 07, 2012 09:30 PM (Onw8c)

356 >And, many of them actually are of an expressly euro-socialist bent and find market solutions and deregulation anathema.<

"Many"? The Euro-socialist technocrats loathe religion in general and hate the Catholic Church in particular. The Church is tasked with saving souls, healing the sick, and feeding the poor. If market-based reforms will promote the Church's mission, "many" will listen.

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 09:38 PM (HjPtV)

357 Soothsayer: do you actually know any Catholics? I live in an urban liberal area and if I'm late for Mass, I have to stand in the back of the church. And that's not just on Christmas or Easter. My sister lives in a more conservative suburb and the same thing is true at her parish.
The big problem is lack of priests, not lack of parishioners. The Episcopalians would love to have that problem.

Posted by: Donna V. at February 07, 2012 09:42 PM (BYWNy)

358 seamless garment.

Posted by: elizabethe only loves Rick Perry more at February 07, 2012 09:51 PM (9Sbba)

359 mrp, most of the Catholics I know are pretty socialist. Your mileage obviously varies.

>>If market-based reforms will promote the Church's mission, "many" will listen.<<

Do you really believe this?? No way. No way! Did you read that .pdf in my last link? These bishops were all for a complete socialization of health care, except for the abortion/ contraceptive cutout. They had no problem with the rest of the radical agenda. There is no mention or suggestion of market-based reform, though it has the clear advantage in terms of religious freedom, even after that matter became an overriding concern. None.

Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 09:55 PM (DbybK)

360 It's not catholics who are 'mad' at Obama over this - or at least not Catholics that don't go to work in a pointy hat - it's white evangelicals.

http://tinyurl.com/6u5sqa3

See that? Self-identified catholics are the second strongest approvers of Obama's policy, 58% for - 38% against (only "unaffiliateds" are higher).

One is inevitably tempted to go a further here: those indicating objection to this line up almost precisely with the profile of the GOP base.

It's not looking like a conscience issue at all, at least not one involving religion. The POV on this being expressed here by catholics almost precisely inverts the POV of white evangelicals.

Posted by: Rex the Wonder God at February 07, 2012 10:04 PM (vahvH)

361 There were several questions on that poll Rex, showing only the results for that one is misleading. When asked if Church organizations should be exempt, the numbers change to 52 for and 48 against, not exactly the 58-38 you are talking about. And I notice that as in many polls of "Catholics", this one doesn't specify what percentage of the Catholics questioned have darkened the doors of a church in 20 years and which just consider themselves Catholic by birth. If you ask practicing Catholics those questions the numbers will change significantly.

Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 10:16 PM (hRmVa)

362 Here is an example of what Catholic hospitals got for going along with Obamacare:
http://tinyurl.com/7ekd7c3


Posted by: PJ at February 07, 2012 10:18 PM (DQHjw)

363 "Here is an example of what Catholic hospitals got for going along with Obamacare"

Yes, and they went along with it by specifically opposing it? How does that work again, when the bishops oppose something, and are said to have "gone along with it"?


Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 10:21 PM (hRmVa)

364 >These bishops were all for a complete socialization of health care,
except for the abortion/ contraceptive cutout. They had no problem with
the rest of the radical agenda.<

Religious conscience exemptions are more than just abortion/contraception issues, LauraW. As another poster mentioned, Catholic adoption services closed their doors when the state(s) demanded that they also place children with same-sex partners. And in 2010, there were no conservatives on the government side of the table - the Dems controlled the White House, the House, and the Senate. And yet, and yet, the "all for a complete socialization of health care" bishops walked away from THE ENTIRE BILL because of the religious conscience exemption issue. You equate this as meaning that the bishops would ignore free-market proposals made by the same folks who wrote the Hyde Amendment or who have (at last count) already submitted THREE religious conscience bills in the House and Senate. Has it occurred to anyone what a broad-based religious conscience law would do to the viability of ObamaCare in practice and in the courts?

Posted by: mrp at February 07, 2012 10:22 PM (HjPtV)

365 See, 52-48. And 1)nowhere does it specify what percent of those questioned are believing, practicing Catholics, and 2) Catholicism is not a democracy and the laity does not set doctrine or policy or govern the Church, so this opinion poll is beside the point:

http://tinyurl.com/73mw5x7
A majority of Catholics (52%) say that religiously affiliated
colleges and hospitals should have to provide coverage that includes
contraception.Among Catholic voters, however, only 45% support this requirement, while 52% oppose it.Only about 4-in-10 (41%) white Catholics support this requirement, compared to 58% who oppose it.

Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 10:25 PM (hRmVa)

366 @340"Been on this forum many times and am not used to seeing this kind of
anti-Catholicism here. Some of you -- how do I say this gently -- ought
to be a bit ashamed of yourselves.
Personally I think Obama wants people of faith to be at each others' throats over this."

I'm reminded of something Lenin wrote about how it was unproductive to attack religion directly; rather, the way to destroy religion was to introduce the class struggle into it. There has been an internal war inside Catholicism for several generations now, and those of you who have only met Liberal Catholics and are generalizing therefrom, are speaking from a position of severe ignorance.


Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at February 07, 2012 10:27 PM (Y5I9o)

367 For the record, I go to a Catholic parish where one of the priests listed in the bulletin prayers specifically against Obamacare and for a new administration.

Posted by: JeremiadBullfrog at February 07, 2012 10:29 PM (Y5I9o)

368 Didn't realize, until today, how many anti-Catholic bigots posted here.

Posted by: MCPO Airdale at February 07, 2012 10:42 PM (tYaDf)

369 "See that? Self-identified catholics are the second strongest approvers of Obama's policy, 58% for - 38% against (only "unaffiliateds" are higher)."
_________________________________
Rex, my political idiot brother goes to Mass once a year at Christmas. He loves Obama, and I'm sure,has no problem with Obama's violation of religious freedom ("because the Church really needs to get with the times.")
I returned to the Church in 2005, and while, my attendence record hasn't been perfect, I try to go to Mass weekly, I belong to a parish, I actually take the teachings of the Church seriously - and I'm conservative as all get out.
Yet, if Gallup calledmy brotherand asked him his religious affliation, I know he'd say Catholic. If they called me and asked, I'd say Catholic too. It isn't just a matter of self-identification - the people who actually put their butts in the pews on Sunday aretheones who trend Republican. In fact, I'd wager theclergyare more liberalthan most of their flock.

Posted by: Donna V. at February 07, 2012 10:43 PM (BYWNy)

370 "Yet, if Gallup calledmy brotherand asked him his religious affliation, I know he'd say Catholic."

The fact that they break the numbers down by age, race, sex, and intention to vote but pointedly NOT by Mass attendance makes me pretty sure that this is a political hit job and not a substantive poll.

Posted by: Norman at February 07, 2012 10:50 PM (hRmVa)

371 Why did they do that?
Posted by: lauraw at February 07, 2012 06:43 PM (DbybK)
They tried to influence the bill to keep it from covering abortion. Surprised? They got no more than a weak promise, so they opposed it.

Posted by: theCork at February 08, 2012 12:23 AM (2n6pC)

372 As the resident Protestant WASP.

I have one thing to say....

SUCKERS!


Posted by: Pat In Michigan at February 08, 2012 12:33 AM (NZqxU)

373 Just a thought experiment:

If the Obama administration can show an economic upturn through a bunch of rigged numbers, do you really want to throw away one big issue that dropped right into your lap just so you can stick it to those damned Cath-o-licks?

Even Chris freaking Matthews is running scared from this, but go ahead, throw it away. Hell, look at that partisan poll more closely- 45% of likely Catholic voters approve of the Obama mandate vs. 52% who oppose. If the Catholic vote went 52-45 against Obama in 2008, who would be President right now?

A 52-45 advantage (at the very least- consider months of sermons and the dawning realization amongst squishies that, hey, every Catholic school, charity, and hospital is going to have to close or disaffiliate under the Obama Madate. . . I might not love Humanae Vitae, but every Catholic school charity and hospital is going to close or disaffiliate) at the polls is a Republican victory. Go ahead and piss that away to score points against us damned Papists- and see what our Supreme Court looks like in 4 years and what Obama has been able to jam through without the constraints of any re-election worries.

Posted by: Norman at February 08, 2012 12:57 AM (hRmVa)

374 Re: "most of the Catholics I know are pretty socialist."

Very reminiscent of Pauline Kael's supposed (possibly apocryphal) comment about how she didn't know ANYONE who voted for Reagan.


I'm Catholic and I'm conservative and I know lots and lots of Catholics like me. Here in the Chicago area Catholics run the political gamut. Poles and Polish ethnics are perhaps the most conservative. But they aren't the only ones, not be a long shot. Maybe LauraW needs to get out more among Catholics, I dunno. Or go to conservative and orthodox Catholic web sites, e.g., The Anchoress (Elizabeth Scalia), First Things, Opus Dei, etc.


You've got some homework to do, little girl. You should have done it before posting.

Posted by: Catholic Lurker at February 08, 2012 01:16 AM (lpDfC)

375 Actually, it strikes me that Protestants in the mainline denominations are mostly liberals or leftists. Certainly their churches seem to be so. Then, too, you have your militant atheist leftists like Christopher Hitchens. But what do I know? Guess I should get out more and hang out with more mainline Prots.

Posted by: Catholic Lurker at February 08, 2012 01:24 AM (lpDfC)

376 375 comments so far and about 1/2 are highly critical of Catholics and Catholicism. Lots of bigotry on display too, now can you imagine a post here where Jews are taken to task the same way? You know you cant.

Posted by: White RB at February 08, 2012 06:19 AM (LrLv1)

377 Well, White RB, the bigotry certainly wasn't aided by LauraW's brutish framing of the issue. The first question, " Does the Catholic church think it should have the sole legal protection from this regulation over this matter of conscience?", implies arrogance to the Catholic Church without any evidentiary support and without reference to any Church position whatsoever. She recites the offensive consequences of the contraception mandate on society at large, and concludes that "we're getting outraged over one victim." She frames this as a Catholic issue and questions the integrity of the Church, and then fails to provide any evidence whatsoever that would even tend to support her theme.

And, given that this site inevitably has Catholic readers, perhaps referring to "they" was not the best tact. It took more time to compose the asterisk disclaimer of "they" than it would have to have just used "Catholic organizations" in her initial observation. Bigoted or not, the affect smacks of tribalism.

Laura W is my friend, and I generally think exceedingly well of her, but this post, while asking questions that conceptually have merit, was atrociously insensitive and borderline libelous. You're better than this, Laura.

Posted by: Jazz at February 08, 2012 08:38 AM (NzrVU)

378 There are lots of Catholic conservatives (including a few folks who are more conservative or libertarian than Catholic), and there are lots of liberal Catholics (mostly Baby Boomers taught to be that way by old-school 30's and 40's Catholic liberals, or Boomers' kids). But there's also plenty of independents and moderates who just vote for whatever seems good at the time.

I guess most people here who aren't Catholics have never spent enough time watching EWTN to realize that it's the Fox News of Catholicism in the US. (Except for not being beholden to Murdoch.) There's no other Catholic programming that equals its reach, it's deeply conservative in a Catholic way (which means a lot of emphasis on the corporal and spiritual works of mercy instead of lobbying for the government to do it), and it's totally supported by viewer donations. (It's free to any cable company who wants to take it.) Oh, and a lot of the bishops still aren't sure they like this media invention of the little old lady nun who used to have her order make fishing lures, but they've gotten used to it working out anyway.

Pope John Paul II and our current pope have made a big difference; but EWTN has taught a lot of Catholics in this country to understand their religion as more than the lack of information created by bad interpretations of the Vatican II Council.

(You know, the "Jesus loves you, go to church, don't ask us to explain much" default position drawn from uncertainty and lack of reliable info, spread by crazy liberal wishful thinking about how Vatican II supposedly abolished everything, even though it didn't.) (Which, in turn, is why so many Boomer Catholics went whole hog on politics; they treated the Democratic Party as the solid changeless institution that their local parishes weren't being allowed to be.)

How empowering is it to know what one's faith is really about?

Well, one of the first things Catholics used to be taught was the meaning of life. Why were you created? You didn't have to go on an existential quest; a tiny kid could tell you. This sort of clear teaching was hidden from the next few generations, in the name of not "confusing" people or providing "simplistic" answers. EWTN and other lay educational enterprises have been trying to get clarity back in the hands of ordinary Catholics, and to make good info about Catholicism available to non-Catholics. As a result, many people who had left the Church have come back, and many converts are being made, particular among atheists and secular people who didn't care about religion.

And this is why the Democratic Party has started to get so unhappy about trying to please Catholics. They're deathly afraid that most Catholics are going to wind up Republican, or that even liberal Catholic Democrats will start to back more conservative positions. The really liberal Democrats loathe religion anyway, so their instinct is run over Catholicism with a bus before anything else can happen.

Posted by: Maureen at February 08, 2012 08:47 AM (BmNPb)

379 So anyway... the liberal Democrat crowd used to like conscience exemptions, because the conscience was so useful to conscientious objectors to the draft, etc. But that generation is practically gone. The new generation of liberals thinks of conscience exemptions as pharmacists who don't want to sell birth control, so they hate them and want them dead.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church is pretty much obliged to fight for conscience exemptions for everybody, because we believe in free will, a well-formed conscience, and that acting against your conscience is a sin. (This oversimplifies the position, because there's a lot of reasoning to prevent stuff like "my conscience tells me that stealing is right and buying is wrong", but that's the gist.)

So again, the really liberal types see Catholics as the enemy, and a lot of liberal Catholic Democrats have been taken by surprise by this development. They're twice as angry, because they thought they had a favored ethnic status, and their tribe's place in the Party goes back a hundred and fifty years or more (depending on the city). I don't know if they'll be more effective in their anger than, say, Hillary Democrats, but that remains to be seen.

Posted by: Maureen at February 08, 2012 09:01 AM (BmNPb)

380 Oh, and the final factor.

American Catholics mostly came to this country to get away from persecution by the UK and by other governments (like Bismarck's Germany). They spent most of American history trying to prove that they were good citizens while being distrusted as evil evil papists by most other Americans. Part of the Baby Boomer Catholics' problem is that they thought they'd finally found a way to fit in, and that a large part of the solution was to quit doing distinctly Catholic things. Part of why Vatican II was so badly misinterpreted, was that it was used as a handy excuse to drop all this embarrassing Catholic differentness.

But as an unintended result, there are several generations of American Catholics now who've never felt like evil evil papists, who didn't live in ethnic neighborhoods, and who are actually kind of interested in having some distinctive beliefs and practices. It's a really bad idea to give this sort of person the "evil evil papists aren't really Christian" treatment, because it makes them indignant, and eventually gets them off their Catholic butt to start studying their faith just to have good rejoinders.

And now, from the opposite side of the spectrum, liberal Catholics are getting a similar "evil evil Catholics for not liking abortion" treatment. A surprising number of pro-choice Catholics (not the real extremists, but the ones who never thought much about it) are being woken up to the teachings of their church by this. Catholics tend to take a while to change their minds on stuff, so this is a long-range effect; but I think the really really liberal types will find out in the next few years that there are a lot of "Obama pro-lifers" created by their nastiness.

Posted by: Maureen at February 08, 2012 09:18 AM (BmNPb)

381 lauraw

" most of the Catholics I know are pretty socialist. Your mileage obviously varies"

None of the people Pauline Kael knew voted for Nixon in an election where he won 49 states. My mileage varies as well.

My experience with my relatives seems to be that a lot of them don't think much about politics but they do vote and they vote for Democrats. This issue is causing them to think about politics and I don't believe that they will unthinkingly vote Democrat this year.

Posted by: Mark in Texas at February 08, 2012 09:26 AM (Ve7HE)

382 Reading a few more of the comments on this thread, maybe Obama is hoping to tap into the anti-Papist hatred that is on evidence here in his bid for reelection with the slogan: "Vote for me! I oppose every political principal that you believe in but, like you, I sure hate me some Catholics."

Posted by: Mark in Texas at February 08, 2012 09:40 AM (Ve7HE)

383 Why shouldn't people be highly critical of Catholics and Catholicism? Are they some sort of protected group? I am against this social justice crap they are always pushing. It's communism. And as far as the abortion issue: well most of the catholic pols are pro choice and the church doesn't say boo. Hell, I even got into a pissing match on the internet with a nun over her support of Obama. To me it's rank hypocrisy.

You are always seeing people here complain about Jews voting democrat when it is clear that the donks don't give a shit about Israel. I have in the past, and will continue to complain about the ultra orthodox Jewish communities that do not recognize Israel, accept $$$ from terrorists, play kissy face with the dinner jacket, etc.

Posted by: mike at February 08, 2012 10:16 AM (bxXRo)

384 The Obama regime just lost the election.

Posted by: TANSTAAFL at February 08, 2012 10:31 AM (iaOP0)

385 This morning Karl Denninger has another entry about catholicism and obamacare. "Wrong-Way From All Angles (Obamacare)"
http://market- ticker. org / akcs - www ? post = 201678#discuss
All of these articles are worth reading. You get a perspective on what people are thinking and all the angles. Right now I know of two parishes that are "undergoing change" which sort of means that the people who attended those parishes have either stopped attending and walked a little further to another parish or have closed their wallets until further notice. I know of a parish where my parents live that has created total upheaval within the parish by firing some long time employees without even a hint they'd be fired. If it were purely for monetary reasons the parishioners would have fully understood. But, it wasn't as those fired were replaced by quieter, go along to get along, Catholics, more to their liking. Sort of like what the dems do.

Posted by: tinsley at February 08, 2012 10:52 AM (oZfic)

386 Posted by: mike at February 08, 2012 10:16 AM (bxXRo)

Yeah, you have to look the institutions squarely in the eye, with an objective scrutiny. The denninger articles are sort of doing just that.

Posted by: tinsley at February 08, 2012 10:55 AM (oZfic)

387 Congratulations Laura W. For me, this is far and away the best thing you've written here.

Posted by: Shirley at February 08, 2012 03:48 PM (U4ceb)

388
Shirley,
So, expressinghate for Catholics is far and away the best thing anyone has ever done at Ace's place? I'm glad I don't know you.

Posted by: Ticklebee at February 08, 2012 05:31 PM (ImLKS)

389 I'm sure a lot of Catholics are thinking only of their own, but that's fine: focus on your people first. I don't doubt that there are many also who are opposed as a matter of general principle --in fact, they may want to see conscientious objections applied as widely as possible so as to neuter the bill.'s enforcement.

Posted by: logprof at February 09, 2012 11:54 AM (CE2wR)






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