ATF Emails: Hey, Let's Use These Long-Gun Sales We've Demanded Gun Shop Owners Sell To Cartels To Justify Cracking Down on Long-Gun Sales

"Smoking guns?"

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."

Still looking for anyone in the media to vigorously question an official on the goal of this operation.

We armed up Mexican Drug Barons, who used the guns to kill 300 people, making this a very murderous foreign covert operation, and no one in the media really seems curious as to the actual goal sought.

Old Quote: Headline:

Obama: I'm Working On Gun Control Under the Radar

But the subhed reads:

Plans include enacting restrictions via executive order, bypassing Congress

As I've made clear, I'm not a believer. I could be, I guess, but I'm not. I think I've just heard too many of these Grand Conspiracies, Ruby Ridge and especially Waco.

Thanks to JohnE.

Posted by: Ace at 02:42 PM



Comments

1 the goal was STRICTER GUN CONTROL LAWS

Posted by: phoenixgirl on other work computer ready to drink the perry flavor-aid at December 07, 2011 02:45 PM (s+J9D)

2 Finally you're coming around to seeing this actually was a bit of a conspiracy, Ace?

Good.

Posted by: Random at December 07, 2011 02:45 PM (YiE0S)

3 Because we don't need no STINKING Badges!

and BarryO is a SCOAMF

Posted by: USMC 8541 at December 07, 2011 02:45 PM (v3pYe)

4 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 02:46 PM (8y9MW)

5 I am shocked, shocked to find asshattery going on here.

Posted by: Andy at December 07, 2011 02:47 PM (5Rurq)

6 Some say we should have every American own a gun, in school, in church, and in our streets... I reject that view. Not only should we arm every American child by implanting a firearm in the placenta so they can shoot the doctor for slapping them, we should arm other countries too, because it's no fun shooting someone who ain't shooting back.

Posted by: SomeSay the Strawmarian at December 07, 2011 02:47 PM (Qmfjq)

7 I still have a CNN watching dem friend (old timer). Who thinks because of this we need tougher gun laws. She thinks that it is that easy for them to get guns. That's how much info she's been given by the media.

Posted by: ryukyu at December 07, 2011 02:47 PM (MOHSR)

8 It's like we carried out a "remote proxy" assassination program. Arm the cartels and then step back and watch the bullets fly and bodies drop.

Posted by: EC at December 07, 2011 02:47 PM (GQ8sn)

9 I think the Ace of Spades Decision Desk should just go ahead and declare (fill in the blank Republican) the winner in Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina and probably Virginia.

And while you're at, might as well call the whole race for the GOP now too.

Bitter clingers, FTW!

Posted by: DrewM. at December 07, 2011 02:48 PM (WnQJ3)

10 You know, I know it, our conservative friends know it, Obama knows, Holder knows it......

The MSM knows it but refuses to report on it.

Posted by: izoneguy at December 07, 2011 02:48 PM (i6Neb)

11
The goal? gun control on this side of the border. Duh.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at December 07, 2011 02:48 PM (1hM1d)

12 Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information."We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales"

But anyone who suggests that further gun-controls was the object of the operation in the first place is a conspiracy theorist.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 02:48 PM (8y9MW)

13
.....wow. This is from CBS????

Posted by: fixerupper at December 07, 2011 02:49 PM (C8hzL)

14 Suckers of Cock.

Posted by: toby928© at December 07, 2011 02:49 PM (evdj2)

15 Dude, I think Mike posted these e-mails on Sipsey St. months ago.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 02:49 PM (KC2BE)

16 ughh should say:

I still have a CNN watching dem friend (old timer) who thinks because of this we need tougher gun laws.

Posted by: ryukyu at December 07, 2011 02:50 PM (MOHSR)

17 The goal is pretty clear. Gun control.

Posted by: Bosk at December 07, 2011 02:50 PM (n2K+4)

18 Holder in a jail cell with Bubba who hasn't seen or been with a woman for 20 yeras.....Squeal little piggy............

Posted by: Wall-E at December 07, 2011 02:51 PM (48wze)

19 I think the Ace of Spades Decision Desk should just go ahead and declare
(fill in the blank Republican) the winner in Pennsylvania, Ohio, North
Carolina and probably Virginia.

Drew, that would require the GOP to attack Obama on the issue, and they can't do that because he might not like it.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 02:51 PM (8y9MW)

20 .....wow. This is from CBS????

CBS has actually been following this story, off and on. Journalistic integrity still lives at CBS. Albeit a small, atrophied creature -- but it still lives!

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at December 07, 2011 02:51 PM (bjRNS)

21 Squeal little piggy

"Little pig, little pig, let me come in?"

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 02:52 PM (8y9MW)

22
I repeat,
Lots of trees
Lots of rope
Some assembly required
Put it on PPV, debt goes wayyyyyyyyyyyyy down

Posted by: BIG ROB at December 07, 2011 02:52 PM (hr33h)

23 I've been saying all along that this theory was too stupid to be real. To justify the new regulation you'd have to trace the guns back to the point of origin, at which time the seller would obviously produce the evidence that the sales were made under ATF supervision. There's no way it couldn't be exposed. There's no way it doesn't cause a backlash against the very thing they're trying to do. It looks like I was wrong. I think the stupidity worries me more than the intent. Could this be the dumbest plan of all time?

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 02:52 PM (+lsX1)

24 Why do you want to control american guns Eric? Why? What's the problem with americans bearing arms? Interferring with your plans? Huh?

Posted by: dagny at December 07, 2011 02:52 PM (vY0c7)

25 Gunwalking is unacceptable no matter when it occurred.
Documents make clear that Assistant Attorney General Breuer was the
highest-ranking official in the Justice Department who knew about
gunwalking in Operation Wide Receiver.
He did nothing to correct the problems, alert others to the issue,
take responsibility, or even admit what he knew until he was forced to
by the evidence.
Therefore, I believe the Attorney General needs to ask for Mr. Breuer’s resignation and remove him from office if he refuses.
If Mr. Breuer wants to do the honorable thing, he should resign of his own accord.
Now I’m not someone who flippantly calls for resignations.
I’ve done oversight for many years, and in all that time, I don’t
ever remember coming across a government official who so blatantly
placed sparing agencies embarrassment over protecting the lives of
citizens.
He has failed in his job of ensuring that the government operates properly, including that people are held accountable.
Because of that, Mr. Breuer needs to go immediately.
Anything less will show the American people that the Justice
Department isn’t serious about being honest with Congress in our attempt
to get to the bottom of this.

Posted by: Charles Grassley at December 07, 2011 02:53 PM (e8kgV)

26
I'm usually with Ace on these conspiracy theories, but from the start this one reeked. I deferred to our host's judgment because I am a 2A absolutist (and want a flamethrower) so I can be a little kooky on the subject.
It appears there is nothing you can put past these fuckers, nothing they will not stoop to.

Posted by: spongeworthy at December 07, 2011 02:53 PM (puy4B)

27 .....wow. This is from CBS????


Posted by: fixerupper at December 07, 2011 02:49 PM (C8hzL)

CBS broke the whole Fast and Furious story in the first place. Sharyl Attkisson has done stellar work on these.And the last time I checked CBS was considered MSM.

Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 02:53 PM (ylhEn)

28 So in this case I can really say that I have never been more ashamed of my government.

How about you Michelle?

Posted by: Lord Monochromicorn at December 07, 2011 02:54 PM (uKJAJ)

29 So...still think it's paranoid conspiracy theory, Ace...?

Not that I take any pleasure in it. More a cross between sad and enraged, honestly. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to believe it, but...yeah. Here we are.

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez! at December 07, 2011 02:54 PM (GBXon)

30 As I said yesterday. I thought ace had come around to this thought.

These people need to be in jail but from what I see it is not going to happen.

Posted by: Vic at December 07, 2011 02:54 PM (YdQQY)

31 And while you're at, might as well call the whole race for the GOP now too.
Funny you should mention that.

Posted by: RushBabe at December 07, 2011 02:54 PM (tQHzJ)

32 7
I still have a CNN watching dem friend (old timer). Who thinks because
of this we need tougher gun laws. She thinks that it is that easy for
them to get guns. That's how much info she's been given by the media.


Posted by: ryukyu at December 07, 2011 02:47 PM (MOHSR)

your friend is a brain dead idiot.

Posted by: Unclefacts Out Of Commenting Retirement Just For This One Thing at December 07, 2011 02:54 PM (6IReR)

33 Could this be the dumbest plan of all time?
Excuse me.

Posted by: GOP's don't criticize Obama plan at December 07, 2011 02:55 PM (jUZRg)

34 To justify the new regulation you'd have to trace the guns back to the point of origin
You're assuming honest players here and a population that's paying attention AND has the ability and wherewithall to FOIA the evidence. They will lie about anything. They lie about the environment, how many kids want to play soccer, the cost of a lamppost. Do you think they would really keep and tell honest records of the transactions? Have you met a liberal do gooder?

Posted by: dagny at December 07, 2011 02:55 PM (vY0c7)

35 300 dead Mexicans? Never heard of them.

Posted by: Charles Gibson at December 07, 2011 02:56 PM (+DS7b)

36 Pending any alternative plausible explanation for this abomination, I'm a conspiracy theorist. A monumentally fucked up attempt at conspiracy, but a conspiracy nonetheless.

Posted by: al-Cicero, Tea Party Jihadist at December 07, 2011 02:56 PM (QKKT0)

37 [Crickets]

Posted by: The MFM at December 07, 2011 02:56 PM (RWvqM)

38 300 dead Mexicans? Never heard of them.

I suddenly hear the voice of the old gunfighter, "I've killed twenty man, not counting Mexicans and Chinamen."

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at December 07, 2011 02:57 PM (bjRNS)

39 CBS has actually been following this story

No, Sharyl Attiksson has. CBS burys her on a blog and won't give her any prime airtime.

Mike Vanderboegh is who got her to take the exclusive on this. In appreciation she gave him this hat that he embellished a bit.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 02:57 PM (KC2BE)

40 I want to see special prosecutors and impeachment. I don't care if the GOP thinks the optics are bad, our rights are being threatened, and people have died.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at December 07, 2011 02:57 PM (NOA8F)

41 A monumentally fucked up attempt at conspiracy, but a conspiracy nonetheless.

I think this is the part where Ace actually over-estimates the opposition. His position (as I understand it) has been that anyone could see how stupid this was, and that it was bound to fall apart. Obama and his admin aren't stupid, so this couldn't have just been a conspiracy.

The problem, of course, hinges on that "Obama and his admin aren't stupid..." part.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 02:58 PM (8y9MW)

42 Fuck these fuckers and fuck this shit... heads need to roll.

Posted by: cajun carrot at December 07, 2011 02:58 PM (zHl9z)

43 This deserves the skull more than blaggys prison sentence.

Posted by: Elizabethe from elsewhere at December 07, 2011 02:59 PM (SOoQD)

44 I want to see special prosecutors and impeachment. I don't care if the
GOP thinks the optics are bad, our rights are being threatened, and
people have died.

From your bytes to God's... eyes? Whatever.

I agree.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 02:59 PM (8y9MW)

45 The problem, of course, hinges on that "Obama and his admin aren't stupid..." part.

It might also be overconfidence. If Napoleon's not beaten, he keeps pushing and pushing until he invades Russia.

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at December 07, 2011 03:00 PM (bjRNS)

46 Watergate did not have a body count.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:00 PM (8y9MW)

47 No major scandals, right guys?

Posted by: MSM at December 07, 2011 03:00 PM (29T98)

48 OT a bit but in regard to ATF and what they will and will not approve , has anyone else seen the product called ' slide fire' that can turn your ar-15 into essentially full auto? Freaking ingenious and approved for now by the ATF.

Posted by: Todd 3465 at December 07, 2011 03:00 PM (spa4d)

49 I still think we can solve several problems by letting the DNR issue Illegal Immigrant Hunting Licenses.
Bubba buys a license andtakes a nice littlehunting vacationon the Rio Grande.
Licenses Sold = Revenue Income. Democrats get their new revenue stream.
Illegal Immigrant's shot = Less INS agents needed, lower social services cost, lower health care cost, lower education costs, lower welfare cost, lower prison costs = Lower Govt. Cost to taxpayers.
The only problem I see here is where Bubba is ever going to find a taxidermist equipped to stuff a 200+lb Mexican National. Or how he'll ever get his wife to find space for one in the double wide next to the 12 point buck from last year's vacation.

Posted by: Mr. Obvious at December 07, 2011 03:00 PM (2uovW)

50 It might also be overconfidence.

True enough. In either case, the problem hinges on them realizing they would get caught. Of course they believed they wouldn't get caught.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:01 PM (8y9MW)

51 Of course they thought they could get away with this. They got away withReverend Wright. They got away with Bill Ayers. They got away with smearingJoe the Plumber and anyone else who got in their way.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 07, 2011 03:01 PM (jUZRg)

52 The White House press shop will soon have a new edition: Jennifer Palmieri, who will be the deputy communications director.

Palmieri herself was listed as a lobbyist for the Center for American Progress Action Fund in forms filed with Congress in 2005 -- the only year she has been listed as a lobbyist for CAP during her time there. (Incidentally, she was also listed as a lobbyist in 2001 for the advocacy group Americans for Gun Safety, where she worked briefly between the Clinton White House and the DNC.)

Posted by: Obama 2012 at December 07, 2011 03:02 PM (e8kgV)

53 Hadn't Feinstein used this to try to get tougher restrictions just a couple of mths ago?

Posted by: williow at December 07, 2011 03:02 PM (h+qn8)

54 OT a bit but in regard to ATF and what they will and will not approve ,
has anyone else seen the product called ' slide fire' that can turn your
ar-15 into essentially full auto?

Haven't seen it in action myself, but a friend of mine was telling me about it the last time he came back from the desert.

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at December 07, 2011 03:02 PM (bjRNS)

55
This is like sending out a bunch of female federal agents to forcibly rape men and then throw money at them in an attempt to end prostitution.


Posted by: a personal appeal from soothsayer at December 07, 2011 03:03 PM (sqkOB)

56 Are you finally convinced as to the purpose of"FF"ace?

Posted by: Ol' Kus at December 07, 2011 03:03 PM (m/tN9)

57 And let's give credit where credit is overly due. It is Mike Vanderboegh and David Codrea who discovered this, broke it and screamed about it for months before Attiksson even lifted a finger.

It is they who put the whistleblowers in touch with Congressional investigators and goaded Issa and Grassley to action.

We guncranks (and otherwise freedom minded folk) owe these two men more than we can ever repay.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:03 PM (KC2BE)

58
...as a scheme to end prostitution, rather.

Posted by: a personal appeal from soothsayer at December 07, 2011 03:04 PM (sqkOB)

59 52
The White House press shop will soon have a new edition: Jennifer Palmieri, who will be the deputy communications director.

Palmieri herself was listed as a lobbyist for the Center for American Progress Action Fund
Hasn't she also some connection to Think Progress? gah, my brain might be misfiring , ?

Posted by: williow at December 07, 2011 03:04 PM (h+qn8)

60 I, uh, believe Eric Holder acted, um, stupidly. Folks.

Posted by: Barack The First, Your Magnanimous Leader You Are Unworthy Of. Peasant at December 07, 2011 03:04 PM (2PTT7)

61
I've been saying all along that this theory was too stupid to be real.
To justify the new regulation you'd have to trace the guns back to the
point of origin, at which time the seller would obviously produce the
evidence that the sales were made under ATF supervision. There's no way
it couldn't be exposed. There's no way it doesn't cause a backlash
against the very thing they're trying to do. It looks like I was wrong. I
think the stupidity worries me more than the intent. Could this be the
dumbest plan of all time?

You are forgetting about government secrecy regulations. If Brian Terry hadn't been killed - Fast and Furious would still be running - many more thousands of guns would have been walked and none of us would have known anything about it at all.

It is hard to trace something back to the ATF when you don't even have a dream that the ATF was involved in the first place. Who is going to tell you and go to prison for violating government secrecy?

Absent Brian Terry's death, ATF agent Dodson's whistle blowing to Sharyl Attkisson at CBS news, and her enormous courage in going forward with the story - Obama, Holder et.al would have gotten away with this.

Oh, and a personal note to Sharyl - good luck on that 4th degree black belt work - you cetainly deserve it.


Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 03:04 PM (ylhEn)

62 So our government knowingly allowed illegal arms to enter another country where they were used in a narco-gang war to kill 100's if not 1000's of innocent civilians, dozens of local police and military, and at least one of our own border patrol agents.


All of this so they could move public opinion a few points in a chosen direction.

Posted by: Lord Monochromicorn at December 07, 2011 03:05 PM (uKJAJ)

63 1) Send guns to foreign drug cartels
2)???
3) Tough US gun control laws

Posted by: atf gun running gnomes at December 07, 2011 03:05 PM (+KmL5)

64
let's stop terrorism by helping it to flourish!

Posted by: a personal appeal from soothsayer at December 07, 2011 03:06 PM (sqkOB)

65 So our government knowingly allowed illegal arms to enter another
country where they were used in a narco-gang war to kill 100's if not
1000's of innocent civilians, dozens of local police and military, and
at least one of our own border patrol agents.All of this so they could move public opinion a few points in a chosen direction.
And, um, uh, your point is...........?

Posted by: Barack The First, Your Magnanimous Leader You Are Unworthy Of. Peasant at December 07, 2011 03:06 PM (2PTT7)

66 All of this so they could move public opinion a few points in a chosen direction.

Yep. Pretty much.

1) Send guns to foreign drug cartels2)??? Say "ZOMG! It's too easy to buy guns here and walk them across the border!!!11!!ELEVENTY!"3) Tough US gun control laws

Yep. Pretty much.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:07 PM (8y9MW)

67
You know the best way to get stricter environmental regulations passed?

We'll poison the water supply!

Posted by: the smart people in government at December 07, 2011 03:08 PM (sqkOB)

68 This is like sending out a bunch of female federal agents to forcibly
rape men and then throw money at them in an attempt to end prostitution.


Go on.

Posted by: al-Cicero, Tea Party Jihadist at December 07, 2011 03:08 PM (QKKT0)

69
And then we'll say, "See? See what happens when we don't take care of our environment?"

Posted by: the smart people in government at December 07, 2011 03:08 PM (sqkOB)

70 Anyone who is still resisting the "conspiracy theory" angle needs to explain this:

Why has the conspiracy theory so accurately predicted both past (though at the time unknown) and future events? Why are they doing exactly (more-or-less) the things the "conspiracy theory" said they would?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:08 PM (8y9MW)

71 Um, if you folks haven't noticed, guns are flying off the shelves at, uh, gun dealers and ammo makers are uh, running three shifts to keep up with demand since my coronation, uh, inauguration. Folks, you'd think they'd be, uh, thanking me. Folks.

Posted by: Barack The First, Your Magnanimous Leader You Are Unworthy Of. Peasant at December 07, 2011 03:09 PM (2PTT7)

72
Yep, we'll give leukemia to a bunch of kids and that'll show people how reckless corporations are.

That'll show 'em!

Posted by: the smart people in government at December 07, 2011 03:09 PM (sqkOB)

73 Charlie Gibson? Never heard of him.

Posted by: 300 Dead Mexicans at December 07, 2011 03:09 PM (lAsnZ)

74 You know the best way to get stricter environmental regulations passed?We'll force Halliburton to poison the water supply!

Fixed. And, again: Yep. Pretty much.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:10 PM (8y9MW)

75
Hey, you! You're building a very unsafe car.

Watch. I'll run you over to make my case.

Posted by: the smart people in government at December 07, 2011 03:10 PM (sqkOB)

76 Just a reminder..Hot Air has open registration..

Posted by: Dire Straits at December 07, 2011 03:10 PM (moxN4)

77 We'll destroy the mortgage market and that'll show people banks can't be trusted.

Posted by: the smart people in government and Sort-Of-Mad Max, who knows a good bandwagon to hop onto at December 07, 2011 03:11 PM (2PTT7)

78 Suppose there was no conspiracy. Can someone tell me why, in an age where a US citizen can not be given due process and subsequently assassinated, we can't just drop a bomb on a known cartel compound? The whole logic behind the gun walker thing is insanely convoluted.

Posted by: taylork at December 07, 2011 03:11 PM (5wsU9)

79 #54 Meiczyslaw.what did your friend think about it? Takes just a bit of practice to go back and forth from full to semi but it's very doable. What gets me is that it is such a simple concept with no mechanical parts. Just some plastic.

Posted by: Todd 3465 at December 07, 2011 03:11 PM (spa4d)

80
We'll destroy the mortgage market and that'll show people banks can't be trusted.

Brilliant!

Posted by: the smart people in government at December 07, 2011 03:12 PM (sqkOB)

81 Who the hell wants to post at that cesspool HA?

Posted by: Lord Monochromicorn at December 07, 2011 03:12 PM (uKJAJ)

82 You know the best way to get stricter environmental regulations passed?We'll poison the water supply!

Well, that was pretty much Cass Sustien's plan, and he is one of the people behind FF, so yeah...basically.

Posted by: Lauren at December 07, 2011 03:12 PM (29T98)

83 Hey! Is that smoke I see rising from the Reichstag?

Posted by: maddogg at December 07, 2011 03:13 PM (OlN4e)

84 Huh?

You provide the evidence, but "don't believe"!?

Posted by: Chuckit at December 07, 2011 03:13 PM (y1TFv)

85 Can someone tell me why, in an
age where a US citizen can not be given due process and subsequently
assassinated, we can't just drop a bomb on a known cartel compound?
Because those Mexicans have rights I have, uh, sworn to uphold. You folks, not so much.

Posted by: Barack The First, Your Magnanimous Leader You Are Unworthy Of. Peasant at December 07, 2011 03:14 PM (2PTT7)

86 Sons of Anarchy did the whole CIA controlling the cartels to stop the prosecution of those selling guns angle last night

Posted by: will at December 07, 2011 03:14 PM (b96e6)

87
You've heard Never Let A Crisis Go To Waste.

But have you heard it's twin?

Never let a purposely generated crisis go to waste.

Posted by: the smart people in government at December 07, 2011 03:15 PM (sqkOB)

88 You know the best way to get stricter environmental regulations passed?

We'll poison the water supply!

It worked for Rachel Carson.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 03:15 PM (p7SSh)

89 I think I've just heard too many of these Grand Conspiracies, Ruby Ridge and especially Waco

I think that's your block, Ace. Because if those of us calling gunwalker what it is are right then there's a chance we might have been right about Ruby Ridge and Waco and I don't think you're ready to deal with the reality of it.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:15 PM (KC2BE)

90
I fear all we have done is to waken a sleeping drug baron.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at December 07, 2011 03:16 PM (QMtmy)

91 Meiczyslaw.what did your friend think about it?

The friend in question didn't get to shoot with it. But he did say it was a really quick way to burn 100 rounds, and it was really simple to install.

I have no idea how much practice it takes to fire the thing accurately, but it works in putting lead down range.

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at December 07, 2011 03:16 PM (bjRNS)

92 So what do the GOP candidates have to say about FF? Have any of them committed with a response?

Posted by: Fritz at December 07, 2011 03:19 PM (/ZZCn)

93 I think that's your block, Ace. Because if those of us calling gunwalker what it is are right then there's a chance we might have been right about Ruby Ridge and Waco and I don't think you're ready to deal with the reality of it.

The problem with that is that you'd have to show how we've gone, since then, from a more permissive legal environment regarding gun ownership and possession to a more restrictive one.

The opposite has happened.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 03:20 PM (0yt4x)

94 Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

Ovid

Posted by: Cobalt Shiva at December 07, 2011 03:20 PM (1iauC)

95 Under the radar? HA!
It is an outright and flagrant attack on second amendments rights, period.
You have to right to own a gun, or not toown a gun,for any reason you choose.
You have the right to own multiple guns for any reason you choose.
And lastly, you have the right to purchase one or more guns for any reason you choose.
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
http://zapit.nu/SCOAMF

Posted by: Alf at December 07, 2011 03:20 PM (wN82N)

96 Huh?You provide the evidence, but "don't believe"!?

There's evidence that they wanted to cite FF gun sales and smuggling to push for more gun control, but not that it was the primary reason for FF in the first place.


Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 07, 2011 03:21 PM (SY2Kh)

97 Smoking guns. Smoking guns! I get it. Cut it out, you're killing me.

Posted by: dfbaskwill at December 07, 2011 03:21 PM (71LDo)

98 It is hard to trace something back to the ATF when you don't even have a
dream that the ATF was involved in the first place. Who is going to
tell you and go to prison for violating government secrecy?

But the justification for new reporting requirements was ostensibly going to be casual and repeated violations of strawman purchasing. To make that case you have to be able to demonstrate that it is actually happening by prosecuting someone. It's hard to imagine that producing an immunity letter in that circumstance would violate some kind of government secrecy law. Remember you can't just impose new regulations without some pushback from the industry and the NRA and their supporters in Congress. There is no way this sloppy mess wasn't going to be exposed.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 03:21 PM (+lsX1)

99 As I've made clear, I'm not a believer. I could be, I guess, but I'm not. I think I've just heard too many of these Grand Conspiracies, Ruby Ridge and especially Waco.
First, kudos on the headline even though you aren't a believer.
Second, serious question (which I'm sure has previously been asked upthread), what, precisely, would it take to make you a believer? As I said, it's a serious question. Your hesitance is fair given thenature of the charges and the general position in support ofruling out conspiracy as the first answer. Thus I'm interested in knowing what it would take to tip you over into being a believer.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 07, 2011 03:22 PM (VtjlW)

100 …Ruby Ridge and Waco and I don't think you're ready to deal with the reality of it.

PATCON?

For some reason, I was reminded of Betrayed. It was a dumbass movie that I think I saw in the theaters, but it shaped my attitude about militias for years.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 03:22 PM (p7SSh)

101 93, I'd say the opposite has happened in spite of the anti-gun rot within BATF, FBI et al.

Honestly I attributed the change to W's election. I shudder to think what an Algore or Kerry would have tried.

But gunwalker shows us that W failed by not cleaning house in these agencies. In that he shares some of the blame for it.

Add to that list every GOP Senator who voted to confirm Holder. He was one of the primary architects of Waco and now he brings you gunwalker. Creature of habit I say.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:23 PM (KC2BE)

102 I'm still having trouble understanding how gun-walking is considered a useful tactic.

Posted by: taylork at December 07, 2011 03:23 PM (5wsU9)

103 The problem with that is that you'd have to show how we've gone, since
then, from a more permissive legal environment regarding gun ownership
and possession to a more restrictive one.
We never said they were successful. Hitler took Germany to war to take over Europe. That was his plan, his purpose. He didn't succeed, either.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the theories about Ruby Ridge or Waco are (why does there have to be any conspiracy theory about a Clusterf*ck of Miserable Failure like Waco?), but this one has rung true to me from the beginning.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:24 PM (8y9MW)

104 Ace kept questioning the Big Theory of Fast Furious because of the sheer, convolutedillogic of it, as well as the political risks involved should the whole thing blow up.
Tell me, does ordering the break-in of Democratic Headquarters at the Watergate Hotel byalcoholic former spook E. Howard Hunt and eccentric nutcase G. Gordon Liddy, along with a squad of expatriate Cuban nationals, sound like a good idea to you? This at a time when all polls were indicating a Nixon landslide over McGovern?Good luck following the logic on that one.
In short,Fast Furiouswas an attempt by the Obama Administration to give truth to the lie that unscrupulous US gun shops along the border were responsible for arming the drug cartels. This was accomplishedby facilitating gun sales to known straw buyers, and then publicizing and using the carnage certain to ensue to tighten regulatory restrictions on gun sales andto sway public support for Brady-type gun control legislative efforts in the US.Those 300 people weren't an unfortunate byproduct of an operation gone awry. Their horrible, bloody, violent deaths were the point.
It is doubtful President Obama knew any of the details until fairly recently. I'm guessing Fast Furious came about as a result ofa comment dropped by the President at a staff meeting like, 'Gee, I wish someone in this room would give me something to work with on gun control.'
And then his subordinates ran with it. And now people are dead.

Posted by: troyriser at December 07, 2011 03:25 PM (vtiE6)

105 PATCON?

I've not had time to digest all the stuff Mike has posted on that, FTL.

He said he'll be hand delivering docs to Congresscritters while he's there.

If Mike isn't being played then PATCON makes gunwalker look like a jaywalking violation.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:26 PM (KC2BE)

106 We don't have proof that FF is a conspiracy to promote gun control. But we know the Zero administration wants gun control. We know they were talking about "under the table" methods to enact gun control. They have used FF as an excuse to try to enact more gun control. There is no possible logical reason for the methods used in FF other than gun control. I think I'll stick with the obvious, rather than some obscure logic that allows for simple mindless stupidity as the reason for FF.

Posted by: maddogg at December 07, 2011 03:26 PM (OlN4e)

107 This illustrates the one big miss by the Founding Fathers -- there is no penalty for committing, participating in, or encouraging un- or anti- Constitutional actions by gov't agents.

Posted by: Mark E at December 07, 2011 03:27 PM (w5RwR)

108 I'm still having trouble understanding how gun-walking is considered a useful tactic.
I guess it depends on the goal. If you were really trying to find where the guns were going AND you had reliable tracking on the guns, then it makes sense (provided "where the guns were going" was some warehouse or something).

Or, if you were trying to manufacture evidence that Drug Cartels were using American purchased guns because it was just so gosh-darn easy to buy them here and smuggle them back.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:27 PM (8y9MW)

109 I trust President Obama. He cares about me! I do not beleive any of this crap. I also have had no job for 5 years (BS inAncient AztecLanguages and there use in Modern Icelandfrom Everest College on the Internet) and also have been to Mars with Jimi Hendrix and Elvis...............

Posted by: Wall-E at December 07, 2011 03:28 PM (48wze)

110 There is no way this sloppy mess wasn't going to be exposed.

Had Brian Terry not been killed, and had ATF rank-and-file not gotten wind of the fact that it was an F&F gun that killed him, this sloppy mess would probably not have been exposed.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 03:29 PM (p7SSh)

111 The only candidates who would would really clean house if elected are Ron Paul and Rick Perry. Unfortunately, Paul is crazy and Perry is unlikely to succeed with his campaign.

I would relish a Perry presidency starting with a no-apologies house clearing. Just get rid of all these bureaucrats. Don't replace most of them. Boom, you're already saving money and the government will probably work a lot better.

No ATF = hundreds of people not being murdered. However much we're paying for it, I think we'd be better off with a skeleton crew at best, meant only to pursue the most extreme problems.

Posted by: Dustin at December 07, 2011 03:29 PM (rQ/Ue)

112 What Ace fails to understand is the depth of the incompetence of the administration, and theextent of it's arrogance.
They can't pull off a good conspiracy plot due to that incompetence, and they can't conceive that anyone would question them about anything due to that arrogance.
A bunch of inept, egotistical amateurs tried to pulloff a plot to increase gun regulation and failed miserably, just as has this administration in so many other areas. .

Posted by: Alf at December 07, 2011 03:29 PM (wN82N)

113 23 I've been saying all along that this theory was too stupid to be real.
Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 02:52 PM (+lsX1)

And yet they're carried out every step of it.

We *know* now that they knew ahead of time what the consequences would be, that they lied to us, that they deliberately let the guns get into the hands of the narco-terrorists, that they anticipated the deaths of many Mexican citizens. We know that they anticipated the statistics' usefulness in gun policy, and that they have been trying to support new gun control measures because of these events.

The people who think there was a conspiracy aren't the moon landing deniers here, the people who think there *wasn't* one are.

Sorry, this is all on the level of "oops, I slipped and shot him 12 times in the back with my revolver." The "accident or incompetence" hypothesis is the implausible one.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 03:29 PM (bxiXv)

114
Holder is an uptight queen barrista.


Posted by: Dr. Varno at December 07, 2011 03:30 PM (QMtmy)

115 As I've made clear, I'm not a believer. I could be, I guess, but I'm
not. I think I've just heard too many of these Grand Conspiracies, Ruby
Ridge and especially Waco.

What was the point in selling the guns, with no attempt to track them then?

We know the Obama administration wants gun control but knows it is unpopular. We know he is willing to break the law to get what he wants. We know he is desperately trying to cover this up.

Occam's razor says this is exactly what it appears to be.

Oh, and Ruby Ridge was a "conspiracy", if a relatively low level, half assed one. To quote wiki;

ATF agent Byerly had come to regard Kumnick as just a "boastful
show-off" and Weaver as even less involved. In June 1990, Byerly
attempted to use the sawed-off shotgun charge as leverage to get Weaver
to act as an informant for his investigation into the Aryan Nations.When Weaver refused to become (in his words) "a snitch," the ATF filed
the gun charges in June 1990, also claiming Weaver was a bank robber
with criminal convictions (those claims were false: at that time Weaver
had no criminal record and the subsequent Senate investigation found:
"Weaver was not a suspect in any bank robberies

Posted by: 18-1 at December 07, 2011 03:30 PM (3aXbg)

116 The problem with that is that you'd have to show how we've gone, since then, from a more permissive legal environment regarding gun ownership and possession to a more restrictive one.

From the article:

On April 25, 2011, ATF announced plans to implement Demand Letter 3. The National Shooting Sports Foundation is suing the ATF to stop the new rules. It calls the regulation an illegal attempt to enforce a law Congress never passed. ATF counters that it has reasonably targeted guns used most often to "commit violent crimes in Mexico, especially by drug gangs."

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 03:31 PM (p7SSh)

117 there is no penalty for committing, participating in, or encouraging un- or anti- Constitutional actions by gov't agents.

I think they made clear their position on such activities by including the 2nd Amendment.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:31 PM (8y9MW)

118 Hey, you! You're building a very unsafe car.Watch. I'll run you over to make my case.

Posted by: the smart people in government

Hey, we thought of that first!

Exploding, running over people, whatever.

Posted by: NBC at December 07, 2011 03:32 PM (XdlcF)

119 These people need to understand that the movie "Idiocracy" was supposed to be humorous fiction.

Posted by: jwb7605 at December 07, 2011 03:32 PM (+KHIt)

120 Honestly, I'm not sure what the theories about Ruby Ridge or Waco are
(why does there have to be any conspiracy theory about a Clusterf*ck of
Miserable Failure like Waco?)

There is speculation that the molestation stuff was all made up.

There is speculation that the Davadians knew the raid was coming but ATF went forward anyway for the show.

There is speculation that ATF fired first but we'll never know because the compound was bulldozed after being burned.

There is speculation (supported by FLIR video) that the Davadians didn't set fire to the building but rather oil lamps caught it on fire as they were knocked over by the tanks coming through the walls.

Much other stuff abounds.

Mike even gave me a FLIR Project DVD I've yet to watch because I think the ship of making those responsible for bringing the cluster foxtrot about pay has sailed. Now, IF gunwalker can be made to stick then perhaps a little traction might come for getting atonement for past sins.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:32 PM (KC2BE)

121 There is no possible logical reason for the methods used in FF
other than gun control. I think I'll stick with the obvious, rather than
some obscure logic that allows for simple mindless stupidity as the
reason for FF.

Given their history (Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc, etc, etc), it's hardly "obscure" logic to assume stupidity by the ATF. With those folks, it's par for the course.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 07, 2011 03:32 PM (SY2Kh)

122 OOPS sock off

Posted by: lazy american 99%er fool/clown clinging bitterly to my guns at December 07, 2011 03:32 PM (wN82N)

123
Eric Holder is a man that will live in infamy.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at December 07, 2011 03:32 PM (QMtmy)

124 We never said they were successful.  Hitler took Germany to war to take over Europe.  That was his plan, his purpose.  He didn't succeed, either.

And he stated that purpose. Publicly and privately. He documented his purpose to exterminate Jews, Romani, queers and the disabled. All of that is beyond argument. It was a documented conspiracy.

What you have here is a Conspiracy Theory. YOU are supplying the rationale and the motive, but you have nothing solid to back it up, as of yet. Just a whole lot of "Of COURSE that's what they're trying to do!"

Okay, then. Show me something other than conjecture. That's why I'm not eager to jump on board and start pounding the table just yet.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 03:33 PM (PLHIl)

125 I guess shooting mothers with infant in arms got to be old hat for the ATF.

Posted by: shillelagh at December 07, 2011 03:34 PM (hRzu2)

126

Normal
0


I am Barrach Hussein Obama Mulay Ahmed Muhamed
Raisuli the Magnificent, sherif of the Chicago gang and I can do as I will.
Your inept Republicans can only bow to my will and kiss my feet while squealing
ineffectually about politics.

Next I will cancel the elections. Putin has nothing on me.

Posted by: Barrach Hussein Obama Mulay Ahmed Muhamed Raisuli at December 07, 2011 03:34 PM (YdQQY)

127 Ruby Ridge: ATF bungles a small PR stunt,DoJ bungles the clean-up by bringing in trigger-happy sniper team.
Waco: ATF bungles a moderate size PR stunt.DoJ bungles the clean-up by bringing in tear-gas spraying tanks.
FF: ATF bungles a bigPR stunt.DoJ bungles the clean-up by...?
Anybody else see a pattern here?

Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at December 07, 2011 03:35 PM (1+CnU)

128 The smoking gun of Fast Furious is this: There was no mechanism in place to trace the firearms, and when individual agents attempted to "follow the guns" (or announced that intent), they were told to stand down.
The great lie being promulgated by the DOJ and the MSM is that this op was "botched". It was botched only in the sense that it was found out. Without a rock solid plan to interdict the weapons and or purchasers there can be only one reason for the op. Flooding the kill zone with firearms originating from the U.S. And the policy goal of that plan can only be.......

Posted by: Alamo at December 07, 2011 03:36 PM (m/tN9)

129 "It is doubtful President Obama knew any of the details until fairly
recently. I'm guessing Fast Furious came about as a result ofa
comment dropped by the President at a staff meeting like, 'Gee, I wish
someone in this room would give me something to work with on gun
control.'"

I wouldn't be so sure. Deputy AG Gary Grindler was fully informed w/r/t Fast and Furious as of March 12, 2010, and met with the President four times between May 7 and May 19, 2010 (the White House visitor logs specify POTUS). Sipsey Street (November 29, I think) and Director Blue have it.

Posted by: Ken at December 07, 2011 03:37 PM (7yb9x)

130 My question is simple. Why would anyone do this?

Posted by: Lauren at December 07, 2011 03:37 PM (29T98)

131 YOU are supplying the rationale and the motive, but you have nothing solid to back it up, as of yet.

Except for the part where they said they wanted to implement stricter gun control, where they admitted that some civilians would get murdered, and where they admitted they were attempting to gather "anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales."

All we're saying is that they've told us what they're doing. They want stronger gun control. They asserted that American guns were responsible for much (most?) of the violence on the border. They were trying to gather evidence for that assertion.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:37 PM (8y9MW)

132 Will @ 86. That was a good one last night. I thought it was a little too close to reality.

Posted by: Julie at December 07, 2011 03:37 PM (O/fK8)

133
We do it for social justice.

Posted by: the smart people in government at December 07, 2011 03:38 PM (sqkOB)

134 There is no possible logical reason for the methods used in FF other than gun control.

Actually there is: Destablise Mexico. That was an obvious result of pumping arms to cartels as well.

Posted by: kdny at December 07, 2011 03:38 PM (SrCor)

135 They were trying to gather manufacture evidence for that assertion

Fixed it for 'ya.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:39 PM (KC2BE)

136 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:37 PM (8y9MW)

Nobody's listening, Allen. All that has been posted repeatedly, including ATF testimony and the WH emails.

Everyone's lined up and taken sides, just like the primary. Evidence is demanded and ignored.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 03:39 PM (bxiXv)

137 Actually there is: Destablise Mexico. That was an obvious result of pumping arms to cartels as well.

Okay, fine: to what end? What good does a fully failed (it's already semi-failed) State south of our border do?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:39 PM (8y9MW)

138 I am a believer. I think Obama will try to enact gun control via executive fiat. However, I think it will fail. For now.

Posted by: cranky-d at December 07, 2011 03:40 PM (H2G0R)

139 Believe Ace, believe. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's Obama/Hillary/Big Sis trying to grab guns....so we can't hunt ducks
...or oppose a corrupt governement.

Posted by: Havedash at December 07, 2011 03:40 PM (sFD5n)

140 We are so fucked. This SCOAMF is going to be re-elected. Shit.

Posted by: Jimbo at December 07, 2011 03:40 PM (O3R/2)

141 Oh, and Ruby Ridge was a "conspiracy", if a relatively low level, half assed one. To quote wiki;

ATF agent Byerly had come to regard Kumnick as just a "boastful
show-off" and Weaver as even less involved. In June 1990, Byerly
attempted to use the sawed-off shotgun charge as leverage to get Weaver
to act as an informant for his investigation into the Aryan Nations.

Also, Weaver initially refused to sell them the shotgun. Only after the undercover ATF agent showed Weaver exactly where they wanted him to cut down the barrel did he eventually do so.

Weaver was a nutjob, but everything about the conduct of the ATF was incompetent at best.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 07, 2011 03:40 PM (SY2Kh)

142 Okay, fine: to what end? What good does a fully failed (it's already semi-failed) State south of our border do?
It gets the Democrats more illegal votes.

Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at December 07, 2011 03:41 PM (YmPwQ)

143 I am a believer. I think Obama will try to enact gun control via executive fiat. However, I think it will fail. For now.

Not before the election he won't. Support for stricter gun control laws is very low right now, and gun sales are high.

If he's re-elected? Sure, then I can imagine that he'd try to push for it as a lame duck.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 07, 2011 03:42 PM (SY2Kh)

144 Weaver was a nutjob

As were the Davadians. ATF selected its victims well.

Trust me, it sucks having to defend said nutjobs against a much bigger evil. That's why they were targeted.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:42 PM (KC2BE)

145 Aren't long gun sales already tracked? Every time I buy one there's the 20min federal computer check.

Posted by: Jordan at December 07, 2011 03:43 PM (XJYf4)

146 Okay, fine: to what end?
To what end Egypt, Syria, Libya?
Never let a crisis go to waste.
And if it was not intended then it was at least not a show stopper.

Posted by: kdny at December 07, 2011 03:43 PM (SrCor)

147 I wasn't a believer before, but evidence is mounting that these bastards had an agenda to suborn current gun laws in order to restrict 2nd amendment rights.

Posted by: MCPO Airdale at December 07, 2011 03:44 PM (tYaDf)

148 Given their history (Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc, etc, etc), it's hardly "obscure" logic to assume stupidity by the ATF. With those folks, it's par for the course.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 07, 2011 03:32 PM (SY2Kh)
The level of stupidity you would have to assume to make it work for FF would be unprecedented, I think. A kindergarten class could do better for a workable plan. I'm saying there was no plan. If there was, they would have articulated that plan, rather than let the whole mess fester into Mt. Vesuvius, guaranteed to blow up in their faces. As it is, each week exposes information that makes the DoJ, FBI, BATF and others look like imbeciles, or lying shitbags with an agenda.

Posted by: maddogg at December 07, 2011 03:44 PM (OlN4e)

149
It is not necessary to determine the motives or to prove that there was a conspiracy.

The facts being floated right now--if true--tell a story of a lot of bad shit happening. As sworn public servants in the federal government, all the feds implicated from the bottom to the top should hang for this even if it was some kind of a fuckup and a plausible objective is proffered.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 03:44 PM (p7SSh)

150 143, they'll do all sorts of stealthy things.

There was the shredding of once fired brass thing earlier this year.

The reloading community got wind of it, howled, and got it reversed. But they tried it just to see if they could get away with it.

I keep waiting on the EPA crackdown on lead to skyrocket ammo prices.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:45 PM (KC2BE)

151 It gets the Democrats more illegal votes.

Okay... I guess I can see that: if we grant that illegals are really voting. Also if we grant that such methods won't be largely blocked by the Voter ID laws coming into place.

I know we say that illegals vote- and I'm sure it does happen some- but enough to justify having an all out war that will certainly spill into our border States?

Of course, if we're looking for logic from these idiots, we're looking in the wrong place, so I can still see that.

But then it just changes the point of the conspiracy, not the fact there was a conspiracy.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 03:45 PM (8y9MW)

152

Normal
0




Election
fraud in Indiana got Obama on the primary ballot???

Posted by: Vic at December 07, 2011 03:45 PM (YdQQY)

153 This is infuriating. These ATF and DOJ folks don't need to be fired - they need to be prosecuted and thrown behind bars.

They have blood on their hands and had clearly found it defensible in the pursuit of their political convictions.

Posted by: inyourheadZOMBIE at December 07, 2011 03:45 PM (lzQfa)

154 Remember, if YOU do it, it's illegal. If THEY do it, it's extralegal.

All the difference in the world, right there.

Posted by: Dustin at December 07, 2011 03:45 PM (rQ/Ue)

155 On April 25, 2011, ATF announced plans to implement Demand Letter 3.
The National Shooting Sports Foundation is suing the ATF to stop the new
rules. It calls the regulation an illegal attempt to enforce a law
Congress never passed. ATF counters that it has reasonably targeted guns
used most often to "commit violent crimes in Mexico, especially by drug
gangs."

This is why it could never work, if in fact it was a grand conspiracy. The industry and a majority in Congress are not just going to roll over for new regulations just because a few gun grabbers start crying about straw purchases. Don't you think someone, somewhere along the line is going to ask for proof that it is happening? Even if Brian Terry is never killed, at some point the ATF has to tie accusations to actual proof and that's where the whole thing falls apart. Dumbest plan ever.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 03:46 PM (+lsX1)

156 Aren't long gun sales already tracked? Every time I buy one there's the 20min federal computer check

This is additional reporting beyond the form 4473. It's also free of the restriction against collecting the data into a database.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:46 PM (KC2BE)

157 As to legitimate goals for Fast And Furious.

1. Economic Stimulus - after all the stimulus bill is where the funds for it came from. US gun sales yields dollars in the economy.
2. Flood the Mexican Cartels with so many guns that the sheer weight of them killed all the members.
3. Decrease the amount of toxic lead in the United States.
4. Improve average Mexican's running speed - nothing like a narco terrorist shooting at you to boost your exercise routine.
5. Reduce the population pressure in Mexico.
6. Direct support for the vital Mexican funeral industry.

So that to the people who can't see the legitimate goals.

Posted by: Eric Holder had nothing to do with F&F at December 07, 2011 03:47 PM (ylhEn)

158 Posted by: Vic at December 07, 2011 03:45 PM (YdQQY)
Aww, Vic, here is the best quote from the Indiana fraud article:
"I was very surprised," said the newly elected Democratic chairman of St. Joseph County, State Sen. John Broden.

I think he is the only person that is surprised that Democrats (and a Chicago Democrat like Obama) would engage in vote fraud.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at December 07, 2011 03:48 PM (OWjjx)

159 Ruby Ridge: ATF bungles a small PR stunt,DoJ bungles the clean-up by bringing in trigger-happy sniper team.
Waco: ATF bungles a moderate size PR stunt.DoJ bungles the clean-up by bringing in tear-gas spraying tanks.
FF: ATF bungles a bigPR stunt.DoJ bungles the clean-up by...?
Anybody else see a pattern here?
Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at December 07, 2011 03:35 PM (1+CnU)
DoJ seems to kill a lot of people, huh? Kinda seems counter-productive to the intended mission, doesn't it?

Posted by: Havedash at December 07, 2011 03:49 PM (sFD5n)

160 Follow the money. Someone, or several someones, were making serious bank on this.

Posted by: deep stoat at December 07, 2011 03:50 PM (evdj2)

161 Don't you think someone, somewhere along the line is going to ask for proof that it is happening?

Please apply this exact question to the Obama administration's pushing the easily debunked 90% lie.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 03:50 PM (p7SSh)

162 OT: SCOAMF pretends to cancel his Asian Hawaii vacation:

After getting ripped by GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney over his
vacation plans, Obama told Senate Democratic leaders Wednesday that he
will stay in town until Congress finishes work on the payroll tax
holiday, unemployment benefits and other issues.Obama told Democratic leaders: “Michelle and the girls are going to have a great time in Hawaii, they don’t need me there,”

Above is from The Hill.

I wondered how he would come up with a way to take separate flights. But you know he's going as soon as Congress leaves town.

Posted by: Retread at December 07, 2011 03:50 PM (ALZZ7)

163 Some one supply me some f'ing knowledge. Wasn't there a fairly sizeable law suit settlement arising out of Ruby Ridge?

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at December 07, 2011 03:51 PM (OWjjx)

164 @48
Slidefire is a stock that slides back and forth, which makes it easier to use the recoil of the gun to push against the shooter's finger to pull the trigger again, without conscious effort on the shooter's part ("bumpfiring"). To use a crude analogy, Slidefire:a real M16:almala Handerson:a real woman.

Posted by: ARL at December 07, 2011 03:51 PM (ta/XW)

165 Please apply this exact question to the Obama administration's pushing the easily debunked 90% lie.

Well, it was easily debunked wasn't it? No new gun control laws were passed due to this easily debunked lie were there?

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 03:53 PM (+lsX1)

166 "I wondered how he would come up with a way to take separate flights. But you know he's going as soon as Congress leaves town.


Posted by: Retread at December 07, 2011 03:50 PM (ALZZ7)"That is weird, isn't it? They never seem to fly together.If your dad was president, wouldn't you hang with him in his off time? I'd always want to fly on Air Force One with daddy president.I guess there's something I'm not seeing here. Maybe they really just want to spend money for any reason they can come up with?

Posted by: Dustin at December 07, 2011 03:53 PM (rQ/Ue)

167
This is why it could never work, if in fact it was a grand
conspiracy. The industry and a majority in Congress are not just going
to roll over for new regulations just because a few gun grabbers start
crying about straw purchases. Don't you think someone, somewhere along
the line is going to ask for proof that it is happening? Even if Brian
Terry is never killed, at some point the ATF has to tie accusations to
actual proof and that's where the whole thing falls apart. Dumbest plan
ever.

The ATF wouldn't have been the ones tying the accusations to the actual proof. The proof would have come from the Mexican government showing thousands of siezed US weapons to the MSM. That the weapons would have come from Fast and Furious simply would have been concealed until the end of time. That was the plan - absent Brian Terry's death - it would have worked.

Posted by: Eric Holder had nothing to do with F&F at December 07, 2011 03:53 PM (ylhEn)

168 Sir Author Conan Doyle (or Spock if you prefer) - "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever
remains, however improbable, must be the truth. It is stupidity rather
than courage to refuse to recognize danger when it is close upon you."

Exactly what is left that aligns with the facts in Fast and Furious other than a lame bone headed attempt by the government to fabricate an issue that would provide a justification for creating more gun control?

I am all about Occam's Razor and the concept of incompetence over conspiracy but we seem to have a lot of data that rules out both of those logical tools.

Posted by: Fire with Fire at December 07, 2011 03:53 PM (lcwvr)

169 And Holder would have pulled this off if it hadn't been for you meddling teenagers.

Posted by: Countrysquire for Perry at December 07, 2011 03:54 PM (1hLHC)

170 @ AllenG,

Then you would think it would be easy enough to prove. Show me the memos backing up your claim that F&F was for the express purpose of enacting gun control, not just demands that I "connect the dots."

I'm not saying you're wrong. It's a possibility. ONE possibility. I think it's unlikely given the trajectory of gun legislation in the last 25 years.

In 1986, there were 8 "shall-issue" states for CCW permits. Today, there are 37.

The largest piece of gun-control legislation in our lifetimes, the 1994 Clinton Scary-Looking Gun Ban, sunset in 2004 and cost a shitload of Dem congressmen their jobs.

The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act expanded CCW even to "no-issue" and "may-issue" states.

Concealed carry now allowed in National Parks. Handgun bans overturned in D.C. and Chicago. The list goes on.

Gun control is political suicide. No matter their ideology, I find it hard to assume politicians are willing to act against their own selfish interests.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 03:54 PM (PLHIl)

171 163, I'm your google monkey: http://tinyurl.com/7gcl7gy

Following his release from jail, Randy Weaver flew back to Iowa
with his children and filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the
government for the killing of Samuel and Vicki Weaver. In an
out-of-court settlement, Randy was given $100,000 and his daughters were
granted $1 million apiece.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:54 PM (KC2BE)

172 For what it's worth, an ABC article from April 2008...."U.S. Guns Arming Mexican Drug Gangs....Is the 2nd Amendment to blame?"

Again, no solid smoking gun (to coin a phrase)...no US officials overtly blame the 2nd Amendment, but Mexico's Attorney General at the time does.

Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at December 07, 2011 03:56 PM (YmPwQ)

173 No new gun control laws were passed due to this easily debunked lie were there

Law? No.

New regulations? Yes.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:56 PM (KC2BE)

174 Sorry for the O/T but a question for the Ohio folks: I just came back from a conference in downtown Columbus and all the flags I've seen are at half mast. Did I miss something?

Posted by: ErikW at December 07, 2011 03:57 PM (3t40w)

175 Gun control is political suicide.

Hence why they were willing to try something so colossally stupid to sway public opinion the other way.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:57 PM (KC2BE)

176 Michelle and the girls don't want you there (Hawai'i) either.

Posted by: Jimbo at December 07, 2011 03:57 PM (O3R/2)

177 Slightly O/T,
I was watching a show about Patton the other day, and it said he actually invaded Mexico, to fight the drug cartel. Is that true? I only ask because the show was implying that Ike had had Patton assasinated, so I am not sure if any thing about the show was true.

Posted by: chillin the most for Perry at December 07, 2011 03:57 PM (6IV8T)

178 Did I miss something?
Posted by: ErikW at December 07, 2011 03:57 PM (3t40w)
Oh. Pearl Harbor, never mind.
God I'm an idiot.

Posted by: ErikW at December 07, 2011 03:58 PM (3t40w)

179 I'm not saying you're wrong. It's a possibility. ONE possibility. I think it's unlikely given the trajectory of gun legislation in the last 25 years.

Agreed. But it certainly could be a very ham-handed attempt to start reversing the trend. The current regime is not known for it's subtlety....

Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at December 07, 2011 03:58 PM (YmPwQ)

180 I believe ace's aversion to conspiracy theories has him discounting the most likely reason behind Operation Crazy-Murder. Sometimes Occam's razor dictates a weird result.

Posted by: Dr Spank at December 07, 2011 03:58 PM (H/kgP)

181 174, seriously?!

Go look at the calendar. Subtract 70 years.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:59 PM (KC2BE)

182 The media was paving the path for this back in the 2008 election cycle.
Talk of US responsibility for the guns used by Mexi Cartels was all over the MSM from 2007 until late 08.
Remember, the small arms treaty was one of Shrillary's wet dreams.

Posted by: garrett at December 07, 2011 03:59 PM (94tIL)

183
Jul 07, 2011· ... the Obama administration is set to release a series of reforms to the current gun law, ... in the president's op-ed. Gun control advocates ... www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/07/​

Posted by: williow at December 07, 2011 03:59 PM (h+qn8)

184 Y'all are an echo chamber.

Posted by: Jimbo at December 07, 2011 04:00 PM (O3R/2)

185 Oh. Pearl Harbor, never mind.God I'm an idiot.Saw you caught it while I was posting.

It's OK. Are you to the point of walking into rooms and forgetting why you did? I'm 43 and it's happened to me twice.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 04:00 PM (KC2BE)

186 Chillin- He went after Ponco Villa with Black Jack Pershing. He personally shot two Banditos and strapped their corspes to his hood.
They didn't catch Villa.

Posted by: kdny at December 07, 2011 04:01 PM (SrCor)

187 174, seriously?!Go look at the calendar. Subtract 70 years.
Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 03:59 PM (KC2BE)
I know, I know.
I had my mind on this dumbass conference I had to go to, my mind was elsewhere.

Posted by: ErikW at December 07, 2011 04:01 PM (3t40w)

188 Oh. Pearl Harbor, never mind.
God I'm an idiot.
No you're not. Given that Sidwell Friends school had Japanese dishes on the school menu today my first thought wouldn't have that the flags at half staff were for Pearl Harbor Day.

Posted by: Retread at December 07, 2011 04:01 PM (ALZZ7)

189 It's OK. Are you to the point of walking into rooms and forgetting why you did? I'm 43 and it's happened to me twice.
Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 04:00 PM (KC2BE)
Heh, it's worse than that. I've been leaving bags of groceries at Kroger lately and I even left my wallet there once.
I'm 36. I'm doomed.

Posted by: ErikW at December 07, 2011 04:02 PM (3t40w)

190 I'm not saying you're wrong. It's a possibility. ONE possibility

Give me an alternative possibility. A semi-rational one.

As Scott J pointed out: there aren't new laws, but ATF has tried to pass new regs to increase restrictions. And your evidence doesn't, for a moment, undermine my point- it helps it.

They're losing the gun-control battle. Badly. We've been whooping up on them in that arena for at least the last 20 years or so. So they don't just need a new law- they need a new crisis. They need something that will sway public opinion back their way.

Now, I'm not saying it absolutely was a conspiracy to restrict our 2nd amendment rights- but I see no other viable explanation. Even "incompetence" is not an explanation, because it doesn't explain what they were incompetent *at*. As Ace keeps asking: if it wasn't to restrict our 2nd amendment rights- what was the point? What was the goal of giving untraceable guns to Mexican Drug Cartels?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 04:04 PM (8y9MW)

191 The plan, I believe, with FF was to create such bloodshed and chaos along the border as to fundamentally change the public view toward firearms, and therefore facilitate,via public demand (see Austrailia after their Port Arthur massacre) for much stiffer gun laws and outright banning of most firearms. That was the fucking plan.

Posted by: maddogg at December 07, 2011 04:04 PM (OlN4e)

192 No you're not. Given that Sidwell
Friends school had Japanese dishes on the school menu today my first
thought wouldn't have that the flags at half staff were for Pearl
Harbor Day. Posted by: RetreadUm, that shit ain't Japanese food. It was Americanized crap.

Posted by: weft - Slayer of Myths, Cherished or Dreaded at December 07, 2011 04:04 PM (mIucK)

193 Well, it was easily debunked wasn't it? No new gun control laws were passed due to this easily debunked lie were there?


So Clinton said this on her Mexico trip for what reason, exactly? Why did Feinstein say this during a Senate hearing? An ATF assistant director testified to this in the House. Why?

Why did these liars tell this lie? Was it because they love to hear the sound of their own voices? Was there some uncomfortable lull in the conversation that compelled them suddenly to blurt this out?

Whenever these tyrannical fucks flap their gums and pop off to reporters or into the record in the House or Senate, the sewage that flows from their mouths is intended to influence public debate.

The point is that they lied and either did not care that they were lying or honestly believed that nobody would call them on their lies.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 04:05 PM (p7SSh)

194 If we only had a crisis on the border...

Posted by: Rahm Emmanuel at December 07, 2011 04:06 PM (94tIL)

195 Was it because they love to hear the sound of their own voices?

Well, you have to grant: they do love to hear the sounds of their own voices.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 04:06 PM (8y9MW)

196 Posted by: kdny at December 07, 2011 04:01 PM (SrCor)

Thank you. I knew I could get an answer here! Patton was quite a guy.

Posted by: chillin the most for Perry at December 07, 2011 04:06 PM (6IV8T)

197 Please apply this exact question to the Obama administration's pushing the easily debunked 90% lie.

Well, it was easily debunked wasn't it? No new gun control laws were passed due to this easily debunked lie were there?


Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 03:53 PM (+lsX1)
You remind me of a coach yelling "The pass was uncatchable" in response to a pass interference call. Yeah, it was uncatchable because the corner back tackled the receiver before he could get to it.The purpose of Fast and Furious was to substantiate the 90% lie. The lie was easily debunked because Fast and Furious blew up in their face.If Brian Terry hadn't died Obama and Holder would have gotten away with both the 90% lie and the Fast and Furious Astroturfing operation. There is an excellent chance they could have gotten new gun control measures as a result.Remember when FF started the DemonRats controlled both houses of Congress - they didn't think that would end in 2010.


Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 04:07 PM (ylhEn)

198
Josh Horwitz of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence says that reports that the ATF would lose funding are "very disappointing." "The
ATF needs to be given a priority, since our guns are destabilizing
Mexico and we have to deal with that problem," he said. "Because of the
politicized nature of this debate, the ATF is operating with one hand
tied behind their back.
............

A report in Monday's Washington Post said that the
administration has, in a budget draft, proposed cutting ATF's funding
in the coming year. The proposal includes eliminating an Obama
initiative to battle gun trafficking between the United States and
Mexico.
.............

An ATF agent twice nominated by Obama to head the agency, which has
not had a permanent head for five years, has drawn opposition from the
NRA and faces a tough road in the Senate. And funding for other
gun-related ATF initiatives has been slow to come. House
Democrats are pushing for gun safety hearings in the wake of the
Tucson shooting, but that effort — and any involving gun control
issues, including a move to limit high-capacity magazines

NPRJanuary 31, 2011

Posted by: williow at December 07, 2011 04:08 PM (h+qn8)

199 so use a tragedy to get what you want, but in fast and furious case, it was going to explode .?

Posted by: williow at December 07, 2011 04:09 PM (h+qn8)

200 No matter the goal, this administration cared not a whit that they were arming what amounts to an insurgency within the borders of a friendly nation.

Posted by: kdny at December 07, 2011 04:09 PM (SrCor)

201 As Scott J pointed out: there aren't new laws, but ATF has tried to pass new regs to increase restrictions

Not tried. Done. Reporting happening. Holder and the ATF even had a little victory lap event about it knowing all the evidence we now have is out there.

Stupidity and arrogance often go hand in hand.

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 04:09 PM (KC2BE)

202 Well, it was easily debunked wasn't it? No new gun control laws were passed due to this easily debunked lie were there? Posted by: Gristle Encased

Laws. Hahaha. Oh that's quite good.

Laws he sez ... HAHAHAHAHAHAH! oh fuck, I think I popped my hernia again.... haha <ow> Hahaha <ow>

Posted by: EPA and the Federal Register at December 07, 2011 04:10 PM (mIucK)

203 Chillin- The episode was historic in that it was the largest vehicle convoy history. Something like 200 vehicles pre 1911.
The experience helped the US Army, Pershing and Patton develope mechanized warfare.

Posted by: kdny at December 07, 2011 04:12 PM (SrCor)

204 The lie was easily debunked because Fast and Furious blew up in their face.

Actually, the debunking preceded F&F by months. The lie was transparent and easily destroyed with publicly available numbers. William Lajeunesse did so at the beginning of April 2009.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 04:12 PM (p7SSh)

205 If the people involved have enough influence, access and time, then you don't need a grand, sweeping conspiracy. A lot of little ones will do just fine, and are preferable for the purposes of compartmentalization. No one has to say anything or agree to break the law, or even bend the rules. For instance, just put people who don't like guns or the people that own them in charge of the agencies that regulate guns and gun laws. Not at the top, but in the middle. Then let them do thier jobs for 30 years. That way, things like Waco, Ruby Ridge and Fast and Furious are just burecratic hiccups in the normal course of events. Happens in every branch of government. Law enforcement makes mistakes occasionally. No one said they were perfect. And if you point out that there seems to be a pattern of behavior here, well then, you must be a militia/whitepower/blackpanther/conspiracist nutjob.
See? No conspiracy required. Just the Thin Blue Line,and a bunch of career officals who provide the continuum of normal government life.
All theerudite wags at the dinner partyagree. Nothing to see here. Pass the Merlot.

Posted by: johnesqe at December 07, 2011 04:13 PM (ZjDdB)

206 anyway there is a ton of pressure on the left to get stronger control laws. FF might have been mishandled,
although being TOLD to not follow the guns isn't exactly an OOPS, that is a PURPOSEFUL ACT.
so the reason seems obvious?
open to other thoughts on why.

Posted by: willow at December 07, 2011 04:13 PM (h+qn8)

207 EoJ. You are making the case for the conspiracy. If the political tides are running against you, change the underlying narrative. Progressives have tried the "more guns, more crime" for years, but time and data have proven that the opposite is true. The new hotness: Lax gun laws in the U.S. are responsible for all of the blodshed amongst our brown brothers south of the border. Something MUST be done. Facts don't back up that assertion, find a way to flood Mexico and arm the cartels with firearms of U.S. origin.
You and I and any other decent American would not even consider such an outrageous andoral scheme, no matter how much we believed in the ends. But Alinsky / Marxist inspired progressives? You know the answer to that one.

Posted by: Alamo at December 07, 2011 04:13 PM (m/tN9)

208 is it possible ATF itself wanted to stay in business?
i guess we just need to know how much Holder knew and when.

Posted by: willow at December 07, 2011 04:14 PM (h+qn8)

209 Issa to press Holder on ‘need to clean house’ at DOJ during hearing on Thursday

Posted by: Miss'80s at December 07, 2011 04:14 PM (d6QMz)

210 209, how can dirt clean itself?

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 04:15 PM (KC2BE)

211 You and I and any other decent...

Did someone just call EoJ "decent?" Have you read that man's posts?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 04:15 PM (8y9MW)

212 ...Patton develope mechanized warfare.
You forgot to mentioon the coolest part. The car was a fuckin' Stutz Bearcat.

Posted by: Alamo at December 07, 2011 04:17 PM (m/tN9)

213 Chillin- The episode was historic in that it was the largest vehicle convoy history. Something like 200 vehicles pre 1911.

The experience helped the US Army, Pershing and Patton develope mechanized warfare.

And, it later inspired CW McCall to write his biggest hit which topped both the country and pop charts in 1975.

Bear = Pancho Villa
Pig Pen = Pershing
Rubber Duck = Patton

I don't remember who the long-haired friends of Jesus in the microbus were supposed to be.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 04:17 PM (p7SSh)

214 The "conspiracy theory" of the anti-gun motive for F&F is based on:

1. Statements of Clinton, Obama and others before the revelation (i.e. repeated lies about traffic to Mexico, Obama's "under the radar" quote).

2. The internally controversial decision to allow guns to be delivered unmonitored, the shutting down of internal dissent on the subject, and the punishment of agents who spoke up or spoke out.

3. The calling-off of surveillance on the weapons over objections.

4. The foreknowledge that the guns would be used to kill innocent third parties (the "break a few eggs" comment reported by whistleblower - and others)

5. The documents revealed so far on using the consequences of the project to push for more regulation - white house/ATF e-mails

6. The continued push by the Democrats for more gun control based on the consequences of this project, even after the cover was blown

All of these items are heavily documented at Codrea's journalists' guide, and have been posted as links here before. I don't have the time to fix up a dozen or more links right now.

It was definitely a conspiracy, unless you've invented an incredibly tight definition of the word.

We do not have all the information yet, but we have enough to be reasonably certain about the *lerger facts* of the case, just not all the details.

EOJ - I'm kind of surprised that you're surprised that people you are constantly deriding for their stupidity are, in fact, stupid.

And I'm especially surprised that you're saying they're not stupid enough to try to do what they are ACTUALLY DOING, which is using their major international violence fuckup as justification for calling for more gun control - as Holder, Feinstein and Schumer ARE ACTUALLY DOING!

You're essentially arguing that something didn't happen because someone isn't dumb enough to do something because it didn't work when they did it. Except that you only know it didn't work because the did it. Which means it happened.

It's kind of a mind-boggling argument.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 04:19 PM (bxiXv)

215 AllenG:
I should have qualified that. Lets say decent in the sense that you respect the Constitution, personal liberty, and the rule of law. Not in the "Thai tranny hookers disgust me" sense.

Posted by: Alamo at December 07, 2011 04:22 PM (m/tN9)

216 add Bloomberg to that Merovign

Posted by: willow at December 07, 2011 04:22 PM (h+qn8)

217 The executive department (ATF) doesn't "pass new laws". They issue regulation via executive fiat. And yes, they did issue new regulations for this.

And there are a couple of gun shops who have banded together and are suing them over it.

Posted by: Vic at December 07, 2011 04:24 PM (YdQQY)

218
Then you would think it would be easy enough to prove. Show me the memos
backing up your claim that FF was for the express purpose of
enacting gun control, not just demands that I "connect the dots."



I'm not saying you're wrong. It's a possibility. ONE possibility. I
think it's unlikely given the trajectory of gun legislation in the last
25 years.



In 1986, there were 8 "shall-issue" states for CCW permits. Today, there are 37.



The largest piece of gun-control legislation in our lifetimes, the 1994
Clinton Scary-Looking Gun Ban, sunset in 2004 and cost a shitload of Dem
congressmen their jobs.



The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act expanded CCW even to "no-issue" and "may-issue" states.



Concealed carry now allowed in National Parks. Handgun bans overturned in D.C. and Chicago. The list goes on.



Gun control is political suicide. No matter their ideology, I find it
hard to assume politicians are willing to act against their own selfish
interests.


There aren't going to be any memos about that even if it is true. This was a secret government operation. Only those with both a security clearance and a need to know the purpose of the operation would have been told. That would include exactly Holder and Obama - so there would be no memos on the subject.

Of course gun control is political suicide - if it is done in the open. That is why this would have to be a secret operation. The goal of FF was to provide backing for the 90% lie. They hoped that would sway public opinion on the subject.

The question to be asked of yourself is "How many guns would have been walked to Mexico if FF hadn't blown up, and how many Mexican deaths would have resulted?"



Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 04:25 PM (ylhEn)

219 Ok so when the ATF agent was told to stand down on going after the guns were sold to questionable jokers, was only a possible issue with paying overtime?

o that was snark

Posted by: willow at December 07, 2011 04:26 PM (h+qn8)

220 210
It sounds like they are trying to force other officials out before they push for Holder's resignation. Whether that actually occurs is anyone's guess.

Posted by: Miss'80s at December 07, 2011 04:28 PM (d6QMz)

221 The purpose of Fast and Furious was to substantiate the 90% lie. The lie was easily debunked because Fast and Furious blew up in their face.
The 90% lie was debunked almost immediately. Look, I'm not saying FF wasn't part of a gun control master plan. I'm just saying that if that was the plan, it was so stupidly contrived that it defies common sense. Ask yourself if there might be at least a dozen other ways to get a couple thousand long guns into Mexico by less stupid means. By means that would offer a much lower chance of being directly tied to the administration. It could be a conspiracy, but if you're the guy coming up with the plan, why would you do it in the most complex and risk-laden way possible?

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 04:29 PM (+lsX1)

222 Holder doesn't need to resigh. He needs to be frog marched into court and held accountable for his crimes. Then duly punished via a federal prison for 25-life.

Posted by: maddogg at December 07, 2011 04:30 PM (OlN4e)

223 222
Holder doesn't need to resigh. He needs to be frog marched into court
and held accountable for his crimes. Then duly punished via a federal
prison for 25-life.
I agree.

Posted by: Miss'80s at December 07, 2011 04:32 PM (d6QMz)

224 If Holder resigns, the MSM won't be able to ignore the story. But they will pursue a 'bungled operation' spin rather than cover it as a deliberate scheme.

Posted by: nickless will probably get accidentally banned again soon at December 07, 2011 04:32 PM (MMC8r)

225 It could be a conspiracy, but if you're the guy coming up with the plan,
why would you do it in the most complex and risk-laden way possible?

If the point is how easy it is to buy guns here, and then get them across the border (to manufacture evidence that gun control needs to be increased), then there isn't a better way- you still have to have someone buy the guns, and it needs to be someone already connected to the Cartels.

Just saying "look, these guns we dumped in Mexico got into the hands of Drug Cartels" doesn't help your cause. Saying, "See, these KNOWN straw-buyers were able to buy up to X guns at a time, and then smuggled them across the border," does.

And, as has been pointed out: We're simply saying their motive for the action (the action itself isn't in doubt, right?) was what they are doing now: pushing for more gun control. If you don't believe that was their motivation, what do you believe their motivation was?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 04:33 PM (8y9MW)

226 224, I figure that's the most likely outcome.

The question is does Holder fall on his sword or is he the sort who will take others down with him?

Posted by: Scott J at December 07, 2011 04:34 PM (KC2BE)

227 I really wish Mexico would ask for Holder to be extradited but, alas, Felipe Calderón is owned by the cartels and an Obama butt boy.

Posted by: toby928© at December 07, 2011 04:34 PM (evdj2)

228 To make the case for the need for more gun control, the guns would have to be purchased in legal gun shops in the US. The legal gun shops are the ones they want to put out of business. Having the guns mysteriously appear in the Cartel's hands does nothing to make their case. They had to tie it to American gun shops.

Posted by: maddogg at December 07, 2011 04:36 PM (OlN4e)

229 One more thing. Remember Liberals appeal to emotions - not logic. The sight of the thousands of dead Mexicans (if FF had gone to completion) would have had a strong emotional appeal to most people - they would have gone along with the 90% lie. The end result: more gun control - even if only by indirection - making it harder to buy guns by more restrictions on gun dealerships. Put enough restrictions on the dealers that they have to go out of business and voila de facto gun control.

See Obamacare burdens on insurance companies for an example of how that works.

Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 04:37 PM (ylhEn)

230 177
Patton was a Lieutenant and participated in the excursion into Mexico in 1914. The excursion was led by General Pershing and they were in pursuit of Pancho Villa after he had raided a town in Texas.
Sounds like the show you were watching got its facts garbled with wacky conspiracy theory stuff -- I guess it wasn't really off-topic after all.

Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop at December 07, 2011 04:37 PM (M0NzJ)

231 You're essentially arguing that something didn't happen because someone isn't dumb enough to do something because it didn't work when they did it. Except that you only know it didn't work because the did it. Which means it happened.

Never let a Confusion Boner go to waste. Go ahead, I won't look.

AllenG,

Eric Holder and/or other key DoJ officials are being paid off and/or threatened by the drug cartels. That's at least as rational an explanation as to why, if there is indeed a conspiracy, the execution of its elements was so ham-fisted and impossible to conceal. And why individual agents and team supervisors weren't told the reason behind letting the guns walk. The drug cartels have a history of suborning law enforcement, judges and politicians.

Would you disagree that this is a possibility?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 04:37 PM (PLHIl)

232 The 90% lie was debunked almost immediately. Look, I'm not saying FF wasn't part of a gun control master plan. I'm just saying that if that was the plan, it was so stupidly contrived that it defies common sense. Ask yourself if there might be at least a dozen other ways to get a couple thousand long guns into Mexico by less stupid means. By means that would offer a much lower chance of being directly tied to the administration. It could be a conspiracy, but if you're the guy coming up with the plan, why would you do it in the most complex and risk-laden way possible?
Duh.
No one can say the exact number of US guns that goes to Mexico since we can only count the ones that are found by law enforcement.
What other possible goal is there? There is none, and until I hear an explanation that at least pretends to make sense that's the only option.
Not that they specifically walked the guns to enact stricter gun control laws - I think they did not.
They walked the guns to Mexican cartelsbecause they wanted to see how many of them went to Mexico.
They wanted to know that so they could use that statistic - one they no doubt truly believe to be true whether they can prove it or not at the moment - to enact stricter gun control laws.
Fast and Furious was truthy - they needed to document the 'fact' that guns were flying south, so they sent some south with documentation.

Posted by: Entropy at December 07, 2011 04:37 PM (UmXRO)

233 Ask yourself if there might be at least a dozen other ways to get a couple thousand long guns into Mexico by less stupid means. By means that would offer a much lower chance of being directly tied to the administration.

Please describe just one of these dozen other ways that can show that a gun seized in Mexico was purchased [legally or illegally via straw purchase] through legal channels on the US retail gun market.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 04:39 PM (p7SSh)

234 The drug cartels have a history of suborning law enforcement, judges and politicians.

Would you disagree that this is a possibility?

I disagree with this because it would make much more sense for the cartels to be sourcing arms from the international market.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 04:43 PM (p7SSh)

235 To make the case for the need for more gun control, the guns would have
to be purchased in legal gun shops in the US. The legal gun shops are
the ones they want to put out of business. Having the guns mysteriously
appear in the Cartel's hands does nothing to make their case. They had
to tie it to American gun shops.
No they don't, all they need is to be able to trace the guns to the US. You then allow the MSM to connect the single dot that they came from dealers and the US gun industry. And nobody could prove otherwise - since they did come from legal gun dealers - who would have been forbidden to talk about FF. Mission accomplished.

Brian Terry doesn't die - it all works.


Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 04:43 PM (ylhEn)

236 Would you disagree that this is a possibility?

I would agree that it's a possibility, but it seems much shakier than a conspiracy (yes, I just wrote that). For one thing, what do the Cartels have to gain?
1) We were already pretty well "hands off" in dealing with them except when they explicitly crossed the border.
2) They can get guns more cheaply and more reliably from the black market.
3) The black market can provide them with better weapons (for their causes, anyway, if not actually superior technically) than they can purchase in US gun shops.

I don't doubt that they bribe and subvert law enforcement and government officials, but I don't see them expending that effort at that point. They are businessmen, after all (if murderous, ruthless businessmen), and I don't find it likely that they would spend money they don't have to.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 07, 2011 04:44 PM (8y9MW)

237 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at December 07, 2011 04:44 PM (7WJOC)

238 If the point is how easy it is to buy guns here, and then get them
across the border (to manufacture evidence that gun control needs to be
increased), then there isn't a better way- you still have to have
someone buy the guns, and it needs to be someone already connected to
the Cartels.

You're saying that the best way to do this is for the ATF to instruct and supervise dealers in breaking the law. Provide them with documented immunity. Then, later, tie the guns back to them and claim regulations are too lax? That's the best way? If you have to manufacture evidence in the easiest possible way to disprove, then maybe that wasn't really the point.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 04:44 PM (+lsX1)

239 @ 233,

Through any number of the app. 5000 gunshows held annually in the U.S. And it would have the added benefit of showing a widespread epidemic of illegal straw purchases, covering multiple states, not just a couple of gun shops in border towns. More bang for your buck.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 04:45 PM (l9zgN)

240 No they don't, all they need is to be able to trace the guns to the US.
Praytell how the hell do you tie a Kalishnakov made in Serbia to the US, if not through the retail gunshop that imported it here?

Posted by: Entropy at December 07, 2011 04:46 PM (UmXRO)

241 Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 04:43 PM (ylhEn)
That would mean a case built on speculation. Nobody could prove anything other than US manufacture. They could have been purchased in Kenya for all anyone knows.

Posted by: maddogg at December 07, 2011 04:47 PM (OlN4e)

242 Oops. Sorry.
Draco's are made in Romania before they are imported to the US and smuggled to Mexico...

Posted by: Entropy at December 07, 2011 04:48 PM (UmXRO)

243 Then, later, tie the guns back to them and claim regulations are too lax? That's the best way?

It's the only way. The ATF holds FFLs by the short hairs.

Through any number of the app. 5000 gunshows held annually in the U.S. And it would have the added benefit of showing a widespread epidemic of illegal straw purchases, covering multiple states, not just a couple of gun shops in border towns. More bang for your buck.

There is no gunshow loophole. If we're talking private sales, then the paperwork would trace from manufacturer/importer, through one or more 4473s, to private citizens the ATF may not be able to grab by the short hairs.

If we're talking regular 4473 sales at gunshows, then these sales are functionally identical to the brick-and-mortar sales. Except that they are even more suspicious because these shifty straw purchasers will have to buy guns in bulk in front of God and everybody and mill about while waiting for the NICS to clear in a crowded convention center. Then they have to get their new arsenal out to the parking lot.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 04:52 PM (p7SSh)

244 I disagree with this because it would make much more sense for the cartels to be sourcing arms from the international market.

And yet, they bought thousands of guns from the U.S., not the international market.

And if they are accustomed to bribing officials in those countries to subvert export restrictions, why would they not do it here?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 04:53 PM (0yt4x)

245 The drug cartels have a history of suborning law enforcement, judges and politicians.





Would you disagree that this is a possibility?

Worse--I believe that the two scenarios are not mutually exclusive.

And as for international markets, they already have established means of transit into the US. And it never makes sense for your trade routes to only carry goods one way, when you can carry in both directions...

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez! at December 07, 2011 04:53 PM (GBXon)

246 No they don't, all they need is to be able to trace the guns to the US.
You then allow the MSM to connect the single dot that they came from
dealers and the US gun industry. And nobody could prove otherwise -
since they did come from legal gun dealers - who would have been forbidden to talk about FF. Mission accomplished.Brian Terry doesn't die - it all works.

It all works until someone asks for evidence that they came from legal gun dealers. And then asked why those dealers weren't being prosecuted. It works until an immunity letter is leaked to the press or Darrell Issa or Wayne LaPierre. It works until you poke the slightest hole in it.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 04:54 PM (+lsX1)

247 And yet, they bought thousands of guns from the U.S., not the international market.
Well what was the sales pitch?

Posted by: Entropy at December 07, 2011 04:54 PM (UmXRO)

248 How many people did Nixon kill at the Watergate?

Posted by: Dennis at December 07, 2011 04:55 PM (sb8LP)

249 It works until an immunity letter is leaked to the press

OK, stop right there. This is the decaying, lurching, undead remnant of journalism we call the 'main-stream media', after all...

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez! at December 07, 2011 04:56 PM (GBXon)

250 Would you disagree that this is a possibility?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 04:37 PM (PLHIl)

So the conspiracy is just as ham-fisted, convoluted and implausible, but now the motive is that the cartels wanted guns *specifically* from US gun stores as opposed to the international black market or the Mexican government?

And this to you makes *more* sense?

Okay, sure. Now, what's the evidence?

'Cause, you see, we've got a chain of events indicating a likelihood of an ideological motive, so let's see the chain of events (and witnesses, and e-mails) leading to the corruption motive.

The problem is, the plausibility of the ideological conspiracy rests on the evidence presented so far. It's a conclusion, not just a supposition.

A competing hypothesis should, to be convincing at all, have at least *some* evidence. So, what, from the witness testimony, the whistleblowers, or the document dumps and leaks supports the corruption motive over the ideological motive?

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 05:01 PM (bxiXv)

251 If we're talking regular 4473 sales at gunshows, then these sales are functionally identical to the brick-and-mortar sales. Except that they are even more suspicious because these shifty straw purchasers will have to buy guns in bulk in front of God and everybody and mill about while waiting for the NICS to clear in a crowded convention center. Then they have to get their new arsenal out to the parking lot.

No, they don't.

In Louisiana, for example, the same gun dealers at the same gun show travel a regular circuit. All you need is one dealer in on the game in that state. Your straw purchasers buy two weapons apiece, and then show up at next week's show 60 miles away. The NICS checks aren't a problem because the ATF is pushing them through anyway, right? So who gives a shit how many people are present?

I've been to many gun shows. It's obvious that the women that are buying AK's, that their Cash-Grip-Money-Dawg-Pimp-Huslta boyfriend is telling them to buy are straw purchasers.

They don't show any discomfort in milling around for an hour while the NICS check comes back.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 05:01 PM (l9zgN)

252 And yet, they bought thousands of guns from the U.S., not the international market.

And this is where it gets truly ugly.

1. Why did they do this? Barack's Uncle Joe, his successors, and Red China put 100 million Kalashnikovs out into the world. They can be had for a song compared to the "for sporting purposes" pieces of shit available on US market for much more than they would be worth if it weren't for RKBA infringement.

2. Did the cartels actually buy these guns? My wild ass guess is that these were sold in Mexico to low level gangsters unaffiliated with the cartels taking advantage of the chaos along the border and to private Mexicans looking for a means to defend themselves from the chaos.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 05:01 PM (p7SSh)

253 Eric Holder and/or other key DoJ officials are being paid off and/or
threatened by the drug cartels. That's at least as rational an
explanation as to why, if there is indeed a conspiracy, the execution of
its elements was so ham-fisted and impossible to conceal. And why
individual agents and team supervisors weren't told the reason behind
letting the guns walk. The drug cartels have a history of suborning law
enforcement, judges and politicians.





Would you disagree that this is a possibility?
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 04:37 PM (PLHIl)


It is only ham fisted and impossible to conceal because it blew up in their faces. Absent Brian Terry's death it would still be running as silently as it was before his death.

If Holder etc. are being paid off why would they ship US guns to Mexico? Remember the guns in question are semi-auto ersatz AK-47's. The narco-nistas can get the real thing (full auto) a lot cheaper. Why would they demand US guns?

Same thing holds true if they are being threatened by the cartels - why ship US guns from US gun dealers to Mexico - why would the cartels want them?

So yes I disagree that is a possibility to explain FF.

Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 05:03 PM (ylhEn)

254 Using the operation to justify gun control is implausible, except that they actually used the operation to try to justify new gun control.

A cover-up is implausible, except that they actually tried to cover it up, from leaking fake leads to the MSM to lying to Congress.

Pushing the "majority of guns traced in Mexico" lie is implausible, except that they did it over and over and over again, and keep doing it.

We are bombarded daily with "implausibles" that are the result of someone's obsession, ignorance, arrogance, or self-delusion. Some of them actually happened. Once they happen, the issue of plausibility is a historical curiosity.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 05:08 PM (bxiXv)

255 The 90% lie is easily debunked, and yet the Zero administration put it out there for a reason. They repeated the lie again and again even after it was debunked. Paving the way for what do you suppose?

Posted by: maddogg at December 07, 2011 05:08 PM (OlN4e)

256 Well what was the sales pitch?

Government financing. Easy Credit, 90 days to pay, no interest.

Posted by: toby928© at December 07, 2011 05:08 PM (evdj2)

257 I've been to many gun shows. It's obvious that the women that are buying AK's, that their Cash-Grip-Money-Dawg-Pimp-Huslta boyfriend is telling them to buy are straw purchasers.

A gun show sale is functionally equivalent to a brick-and-mortar sale.

I've been to about eight in the past three years, and I have twice seen dealers decline to sell to people if there is even the whiff of a possibility of a straw purchase happening. At the spring show last year, I saw your exact scenario play out with the hustla boyfriend bitching about how the dealer was RAYCISSSS!!! for refusing to sell to his girlfriend. He left in a hurry when a state policeman patrolling the floor walked up.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 05:10 PM (p7SSh)

258 Hey Merovign,

If you'd quit huffing the fumes from your Righteous Indignation Marks-a-Lot for a minute, you might notice that I don't necessarily believe what I'm postulating. I'm using it to illustrate that you haven't adequately substantiated your theory, it's only one possibility absent a proven conspiracy to attack the Second Amendment, and you're getting fucking indignant that someone would actually question your conclusion.

That's why these conspiracy theories are such a turn-off. Because they're light on documentation and heavy on "You're just too stupid to look inside men's minds, like I have."

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 05:11 PM (l9zgN)

259 Using the operation to justify gun control is implausible, except that
they actually used the operation to try to justify new gun control.

Using the operation to justify gun control is plausible. Planning and executing the operation for the purpose of ginning up support for justifying gun control is on much shakier ground.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 05:16 PM (+lsX1)

260 Without suspicion there is no investigation. The theories are a necessary part of the process.

Posted by: maddogg at December 07, 2011 05:16 PM (OlN4e)

261 I'm using it to illustrate that you haven't adequately substantiated your theory, it's only one possibility absent a proven conspiracy to attack the Second Amendment, and you're getting fucking indignant that someone would actually question your conclusion.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 05:11 PM (l9zgN)

No, actually, you're making shit up out of thin air in an attempt to discredit what is backed by the documentation and evidence that I and others have posted again and again and again, a body of evidence that is still growing.

Because you're pig-ignorant and you love nothing better than to argue, whether you have a position or not.

I have stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER that the case (or the motivation behind the case at least) is NOT PROVEN, this is just the most likely scenario BASED ON THE EVIDENCE that I'm getting sick of having to provide every fucking time.

Go read Codrea's journalist's guide, or alternatively stop yammering about the homework you refuse to do. I understand why you wouldn't want to do that, it's a lot of evidence and it takes a lot of time, whereas sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting takes almost no time at all.

Some days you are funny being a dick, some days not so much with the funny.

And have a *lovely* happy day!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 05:20 PM (bxiXv)

262 Using the operation to justify gun control is plausible. Planning and executing the operation for the purpose of ginning up support for justifying gun control is on much shakier ground.
Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 05:16 PM (+lsX1)

People are getting hung up on this damned thing to the extent of distracting from the fact that *horrifying* crimes have been committed by government officials.

I don't care if they planned to do this to raise money to buy candy, mofos need to be prosecuted for the *crime*.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 05:22 PM (bxiXv)

263 NEVER underestimate the stupidity of the government! Stupidity is, however, no excuse for the crimes that were committed here.

Email Congresspeople and Senators demanding a Special Prosecutor! This corrupt Justice Department cannot be allowed to investigate itself. What we know now is just the tip of the iceberg but it's already a huge tip.

Posted by: Charles at December 07, 2011 05:23 PM (y85Ph)

264 I'm going to try this, forgive if it doen't work. Agree w/ a lot that's been said, some more than others.
Things jumped out. I'm trying to see results both if it worked and if it didn't. What would have happened beyond gun control either way? What was the purpose? You don't start an operation like this w/out considering these things.
Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 02:52 PM (+lsX1)...why would you do it in the most complex and risk-laden way possible?
Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 03:21 PM (+lsX1) ...There is no way this sloppy mess wasn't going to be exposed.
Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 04:44 PM (+lsX1) ... If you have to manufacture evidence in the easiest possible way to disprove, then maybe that wasn't really the point.
Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 03:53 PM (+lsX1) ...Well, it was easily debunked wasn't it? No new gun control laws were passed due to this easily debunked lie were there?

Posted by: I forgot who I was last time at December 07, 2011 05:24 PM (uEut9)

265 Planning and executing the operation for the purpose of ginning up support for justifying gun control is on much shakier ground.

As far as F&F is concerned, it does not matter one bit which was the chicken and which was the egg. Even if this was just a colossal fuckup, the people who fucked up were appointed, sworn, and paid to know better. This is especially true of Newell because he had firsthand involvement with the Wide Receiver fuckup.

The facts floating around out there now are enough for felony charges.

Outside of hearings, courts, and other places requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the conspiracy aspect is critically important because there are monsters who walk among us.

Public statements, visitor logs, witnesses dodging calls to testify, emails, and the timeline all point to a concerted effort by people--whether by direction or serendipitously coincidentally through a shared agenda--to do really stupid things and then take advantage of the rotten fruits of those stupid things to push gun control.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 05:30 PM (p7SSh)

266 It all works until someone asks for evidence that they came from legal
gun dealers. And then asked why those dealers weren't being prosecuted.
It works until an immunity letter is leaked to the press or Darrell Issa
or Wayne LaPierre. It works until you poke the slightest hole in it.
Here is the evidence from the DOJ: "The serial numbers indicate the guns entered the normal retail channels from the manufacturers."

Why weren't the gun dealers prosecuted? "We don't talk about ongoing investigations". Any member of the press recognizes that phrase as government talk for: "Shut the f*ck up.You are never going to get an answer to that question." Thus ends the demand for proof. Only kooks and gun nuts with tin foil hats pursue any farther, and they get exactly no where.

Any balloon pops if you prick it with a pin. If it looks like something other than a balloon nobody thinks to prick it with a pin. Dodson pricked the balloon from the inside - which is why it blew up. Nobody on the outside even knew it was there.


No, the whole thing works as planned without Brian Terry's death.




Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 05:31 PM (ylhEn)

267 I'll somehow manage to carry on without your approval, dicksmoke.

"Blah, blah, blah - you're stupid!" Like I said, once you've exhausted the meager and circumstantial documents unearthed so far, that's the thrust of your argument.

And I'm pig-ignorant? I can at least entertain other possibilities, dickbag, including your favorite.

I'm not arguing because it's entertaining, but because I THINK YOU MAY BE WRONG.

Now, once you're done fucking yourself, how about jumping onto a pile of sharp rusty junk metal from a rooftop, asshole?

Thanks *SO* much!


P.S. See how faggoty that looks as a parting shot?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 05:35 PM (l9zgN)

268 As far as FF is concerned, it does not matter one bit which was the
chicken and which was the egg. Even if this was just a colossal
fuckup, the people who fucked up were appointed, sworn, and paid to know
better. This is especially true of Newell because he had firsthand
involvement with the Wide Receiver fuckup.

I agree completely. The whole thing mind is boggling in its stupidity. I just want to know the actual purpose for the conception of this idea. The gun control conspiracy angle is too easy to disprove for me to completely buy into it. Maybe that was the reason, but if it was, I can't see how it ends any other way than it has.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 05:41 PM (+lsX1)

269 Why weren't the gun dealers prosecuted? "We don't talk about ongoing investigations".

The gun-grabbers' answer would be, "We cannot prosecute them because they were following the law, and thanks to the NRA and their GOP cronies in the legislature, our laws just aren't good enough to prevent such tragedies from happening."

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 05:41 PM (p7SSh)

270 P.S. See how faggoty that looks as a parting shot?
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 05:35 PM (l9zgN)

I did get the idea from you, after all.

I pointed to evidence for one conclusion (which I have repeatedly pointed out is not proven, only the most likely given the evidence), and you respond with insults, ignorant statements about lack of evidence, and and a completely invented alternative.

Of course, I insulted you, too. You just don't respond well to the kind of thing you do every *fucking* day to everyone else.

Because you're a petulant child pretending to be a grown-up by using grown-up words.

So when you have something to *substantiate* an argument rather than just trying to distract from important issues with made-up crap, come on out and play, kiddo.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 05:41 PM (bxiXv)

271 Oh, time for one link: Codrea's Journalist Guide, part one

Since I'm spending so much time on this anyway.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 05:48 PM (bxiXv)

272 Why weren't the gun dealers prosecuted? "We don't talk about ongoing
investigations". Any member of the press recognizes that phrase as
government talk for: "Shut the f*ck up.You are never going to get an
answer to that question." Thus ends the demand for proof. Only kooks and
gun nuts with tin foil hats pursue any farther, and they get exactly no
where.

Riiiiight. If the ATF was planning to just cover up any involvement with actual dealers, why did they plant cameras to observe the straw purchases? I mean, if the whole exercise was taken simply to get guns in circulation for the purpose of eventually eroding gun rights, why go to the trouble of recording the illegal gun sales that they orchestrated?

"In a news release in June, Rep. Issa said, “With this information,
Acting Director Melson was able to sit at his desk in Washington and
himself watch a live feed of straw buyers entering the gun stores and
purchasing dozens of AK-47 variants."

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 05:49 PM (+lsX1)

273 The gun control conspiracy angle is too easy to disprove for me to completely buy into it. Maybe that was the reason, but if it was, I can't see how it ends any other way than it has.

I don't think this was cooked up from the beginning. I think this was individuals jumping on opportunities.

The timeline tells me that the 90% lie made its way into the left's talking points before any of this started. It got debunked in April 2009.

Sometime after the summer of 2009, F&F began.

The rest of this is *my* speculation:

Following the Fox piece from April 2, 2009, ATF sent notice internally to be careful about the 90% lie because they pulled some shit out of their asses saying that the 90% refers to the guns sent to the US for tracing rather than overall seizures to pull their assistant director's balls out of the fire over his repeating the lie in House testimony.

Bright boy Newell, having had firsthand involvement in the Wide Receiver fuckup (genuine clusterfuck stymied by incompetent handling of RFID trackers and smart bad guys who figured out aerial surveillance windows), got F&F started with ARRA funds and figured that letting guns walk accidentally-on-purpose might boost the trace numbers. He got buy-in from his sympatico bosses (most notably, Dennis Burke, US Attorney in Arizona), and the program started.

This all went smoothly with nobody the wiser until Brian Terry was killed in December, 2010. ATF whistleblowers put the story out there, and the rest is history.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 05:54 PM (p7SSh)

274 As I have pointed out before there is forensic accounting evidence that ties the White House directly to this operation.

The ersatz semi-auto Bulgarian AK-47s bought from a US dealer cost a lot more than a real AK does. The government had to subsidize the purchases to get them to happen. This was done on page 16 of the stimulus bill. $10,000,000 to the ATF.

The amount of money indicates how many subsidized guns they expected to purchase in the operation. ( A lot more than 2000 - more like 10 to 20 thousand)

Sorry, no way to keep the White House out of the operation.



Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 05:54 PM (ylhEn)

275
Riiiiight. If the ATF was planning to just cover up any involvement
with actual dealers, why did they plant cameras to observe the straw
purchases? I mean, if the whole exercise was taken simply to get guns in
circulation for the purpose of eventually eroding gun rights, why go to
the trouble of recording the illegal gun sales that they orchestrated?

They wanted to make it look like a legit operation for the benefit of the ATF agents who were kicking back and protesting what was happening.

Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 05:58 PM (ylhEn)

276 Yep, keep tucking that blanky of superiority around yourself, Merovign. I love you like a mirror - so if you want to act like an asshole, I'm going to treat you like an asshole.

So quit projecting your insecurities onto me. After all, I'm not crying like a bitch that you disagree with MY alternate "theory."

You could have handled it by agreeing to disagree, or escalated to insults. I would have been good either way, and I am equipped to handle both. Either way, I'm not chasing you around outside of this thread to keep slapping you around. Unless that's how you want it.

Now quit your sniveling. It's unbecoming of a Moron.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 06:02 PM (vzFJV)

277 If the ATF was planning to just cover up any involvement with actual dealers, why did they plant cameras to observe the straw purchases?

Questions:

1. Are you aware of the completely unbalanced power relationship between the ATF and FFLs who sell guns for a living?

2. Are you aware of the sting operations regularly run against gun dealers by agencies with (and without) jurisdiction over those gun dealers?

3. Do you think that all (or most, or some) FFL gun dealers are scumbags who would not think twice about selling to straw purchasers?

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 06:02 PM (p7SSh)

278 To me, the gun grab goal with fast and furious was more occams razor then "trutherism."

Posted by: Shiggz - Newt (Maximum Warp!) at December 07, 2011 06:02 PM (RfvTE)

279 And you better be at least in your 70s to be calling me kiddo, tough guy.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 06:05 PM (PLHIl)

280 They wanted to make it look like a legit operation for the benefit of
the ATF agents who were kicking back and protesting what was happening.

Oh, OK. So now it's a double-conspiracy.


Questions:



1. Are you aware of the completely unbalanced power relationship between the ATF and FFLs who sell guns for a living?



2. Are you aware of the sting operations regularly run against gun
dealers by agencies with (and without) jurisdiction over those gun
dealers?



3. Do you think that all (or most, or some) FFL gun dealers are
scumbags who would not think twice about selling to straw purchasers?


#1) No shit dummy. #2) Uhhh, yes I'm aware that ATF runs sting operations. #3) Obviously most FFLs don't knowingly sell to straw purchasers, that's kind of a stupid fucking question.

In this particular circumstance, the cameras were placed to observe the purchases that were orchestrated by this particular operation. The dealers were aware that this was a sting operation and that they were a part of it. Do you think the director of the ATF just watches random feeds of cameras placed in gun shops?

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 07:04 PM (+lsX1)

281 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 06:02 PM (vzFJV)

You really are AoSHQ's most un-self-aware poster.

So quit projecting your insecurities onto me. After all, I'm not crying like a bitch that you disagree with MY alternate "theory."

That is *exactly* what you did. Because, despite the fact that I did provide evidence (which I stated clearly is not *conclusive*) for one possible idea, you went apeshit when I pointed out your "alternative" is made from whole cloth.

That's pretty much crying like a bitch that I disagree with your alternate hypothesis.

You could have either backed it up, or alternatively stopped demanding evidence from people who are actually providing it.

But instead, you played the passive-aggressive game of insulting others, and then crying victim claiming you were just "responding" to insults.

I know you have spent years building your internet tough guy profile here, and that's not going to stop. Just don't expect people to believe it.

Oh, and I'm just *shaking* at the prospect that the great EoJ is considering stalking me online. That's almost as scary as, well, any of the other idiots who waste their time on digital temper-tantrums.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 07:09 PM (bxiXv)

282 "That's almost as scary as, well, any of the other idiots who waste their time on digital temper-tantrums "
??

Posted by: The Jackhole at December 07, 2011 07:13 PM (nTgAI)

283 To me, the gun grab goal with fast and furious was more occams razor then "trutherism."

Different conspiracy theories have different problems.

Moon-landing-deniers have plausibility problems. The alternative scenarios they posit are technologically more difficult to achieve than the actual achievement.

Truthers have to ignore the televised images, ignore the pre-suicide testimony of the hijackers themselves, and then believe that somebody placed charges in the WTC towers some time in the less than eight months between GWB's inauguration and the goatfucker attacks.

The grassy-knollers have to reject the facile explanation of a marxist-influenced fuckwit and confer dark motives onto and make monsters of Johnson, Warren, the CIA, and everyone else involved in the "cover-up."

That "monsters" part is a tough pill to swallow.

The jug-eared fuck desecrating the White House today once made a speech put into the record of the Illinois State Senate voicing his opposition to a law protecting the lives of infants born alive during botched abortions. Is there much more room out on the monster axis past that?

Monsters walk among us. I know the name of at least one.

With this context, it is easy for me to believe--proof or not--that these fucking animals did what they are accused of having done in F&F to diminish my freedom in favor of their will to power.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 07:17 PM (p7SSh)

284 #1) No shit dummy. #2) Uhhh, yes I'm aware that ATF runs sting operations. #3) Obviously most FFLs don't knowingly sell to straw purchasers, that's kind of a stupid fucking question.


WTF is with the abuse, cockholster?

You know why these fuckers did what they did, thinking they'd get away with it?

It's because they knew they could rely on fellow travelers like you to help them cover their tracks.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 07, 2011 07:18 PM (p7SSh)

285 You really are AoSHQ's most un-self-aware poster.
Physician, go fuck thyself. You could try rereading this thread, but I doubt you could focus through the streams of bitch-tears.

Oh, and I'm just *shaking* at the prospect that the great EoJ is considering stalking me online. That's almost as scary as, well, any of the other idiots who waste their time on digital temper-tantrums.

Look at the high opinion this motherfucker has of himself. I'm gonna check back after dinner to see if you're still crying, punkass. Please continue.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 07:20 PM (DiqH3)

286 Physician, go fuck thyself. You could try rereading this thread, but I doubt you could focus through the streams of bitch-tears.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 07:20 PM (DiqH3)

You could try doing your homework, *ever*, but that would shatter your know-it all pipsqueak bully image.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 07:25 PM (bxiXv)

287 I have said before EoJ can be a funny guy, he just has no clue what IFF means so he fires in every possible direction without much thought behind it.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 07:27 PM (bxiXv)

288
Watergate did not have a body count.


Iran-Contra didn't have a body count.

Posted by: Max Entropy at December 07, 2011 07:35 PM (Oo6k1)

289 It's like Empire of Pomeranians.

YAP! YAP YAP! YAP!

GRRRRRR! YAP!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 07:39 PM (bxiXv)

290 It's because they knew they could rely on fellow travelers like you to help them cover their tracks.
It was pure hubris for me to think my role in the conspiracy would go undiscovered. Well played sir.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 07:49 PM (+lsX1)

291 Whaddya know? Still bitching.
Here's the funny part for me: I know that I am very successful in my job precisely because I am aware of my limitations and am not afraid to hire the expertise I need to cover the gaps in my knowledge or abilities. Whereas it's prettyobvious you have never once stopped to consider that you may not be as smart as you think you are. You certainly haven't in this thread.
***SPOILER WARNING***
You aren't.
Or you'd realize that, notwithstanding your butthurtaccusations of Internet Tough Guyism to the contrary, I don't have a "persona." I have a "schtick." One that frequently involves playing the straight man to allow others to make fun at my expense. This site is entertainment for me, but occasionally I like to engage in serious discussion. That your mind rebels at the thought that I'm only capable of dick jokes speaks to your limitations, not mine.
In other words, motherfucker - you haven't laid a glove on me, yet.
And while we're on the subject of Internet Tough Guys, gotany more psychological positioning words you'd like to try out, Merovign? Remember, you've already used "petulant child", "pipsqueak", "kiddo" and "Pomeranian."
Like I said - Physician, go fuck thyself.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 08:04 PM (DiqH3)

292 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 08:04 PM (DiqH3)

YAP! YAP YAP!

GRRRR!

It's like you never even read what I wrote, you're now totally responding to the (admittedly very entertaining) movie going on inside your head.

GRRRRR!

YAP!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 08:06 PM (bxiXv)

293 You still here? I thought I told you to go fuck yourself.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 08:10 PM (DiqH3)

294 And while you're up, go get your fuckin' shinebox.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 08:10 PM (DiqH3)

295 For those late to the game, my position is, put succinctly, that the facts we have so far, while not conclusive regarding the motives behind this horrific chain of events, are *highly* suggestive and tend to point toward a *particular* motive far more strongly than they do toward others. I provided examples, and a link to a rather large additional list.

Which, in EOP-speak, apparently comes across as "Just because I am a know-it-all douchebag and for no other reason, I randomly assault other commenters for their impurity." No particular examples are forthcoming.

How one gets from one to the other is something of a mystery, but it's obviously not an isolated phenomenon on teh internets.

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to puzzle it out.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 08:13 PM (bxiXv)

296 294 And while you're up, go get your fuckin' shinebox.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 08:10 PM (DiqH3)

As usual, worthy of the Harvard debate team.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 08:14 PM (bxiXv)

297 Hey Gristle - I assume you really are Ace under a sock puppet.

I notice the following things: you never defend your previous thesis after I kick one of your straw men over. You simply erect another straw man for me to kick over.

That is the tactic of a paid David Axelrod troll. Is that where you learned it?

And no, it is not a "double conspiracy" - one of the features of the original conspiracy is that you have problems with the street agents (which by the way did occur) since they can see you are doing things against any sane legal operation by letting guns walk across the border with no possible way to track them. If you can't bully the agents into submission (which they did try to do) - you can only try to flim flam them into thinking this is some kind of legitimate operation they don't understand.

I eagerly await your next straw man. They aren't very hard to kick over but they are fun little momentary intellectual puzzles.

What exactly would constitute proof for you? Holder pleading the fifth during his testimony tomorrow? Come to think of it that is going to happen at some time or another as things unravel for him; all he can do is stonewall, and that isn't going to work much longer.

Why would Holder and the White House be stonewalling and dodging subpoenas if they had nothing to hide?

How could anyone have thought they were going to get away with Watergate? Answer: the same way that they thought they could get away with FF; nobody in either one ever thought they were going to get caught.

The biggest difference between Watergate and FF is that the latter used a federal agency under color of an official operation to pull off the criminal activity.



Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 08:16 PM (ylhEn)

298 Merovign, you left out the best part - where you proved your intellectual superiority by continuing to argue with someone who is obviously your inferior.

And then yapped like a dog because OMG PWN3D!! LOLZ!

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 08:23 PM (XE2Oo)

299 See, even the spambot thinks you're being an asshole.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 08:26 PM (PLHIl)

300 298 Merovign, you left out the best part - where you proved your intellectual superiority by continuing to argue with someone who is obviously your inferior.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 08:23 PM (XE2Oo)

And you keep coming back, even though you are all out of arguments.

I don't know *why,* I can only point out the facts, and guess at what they imply.

The whole Yapping thing, for example.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 08:30 PM (bxiXv)

301 It is a failing of mine, arguing with idiots on the internet.

Maybe I need a 12-step program.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 08:31 PM (bxiXv)

302 I notice the following things: you never defend your previous thesis
after I kick one of your straw men over. You simply erect another straw
man for me to kick over.

You didn't kick anything over, you just made another guess. I'm not sure why you're so goddamned insistent that I should agree with your conspiracy theory. The reasoning behind your posts suggests that you should be accustomed to people disagreeing with, belittling and mocking you. Why single me out?

Anyhoo, as I've already written, it very well could have been a conspiracy to aid in the trampling of our R2KBA. I'm just saying, if that was the purpose of FF, it was the dumbest plan ever and doomed to blow up in exactly the way it blew up. It just appears to be too stupid to make sense, but, as you have demonstrated, we are not suffering from a shortage of stupidity.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 08:40 PM (+lsX1)

303 I already gave you the first two steps, Professor.

1. Go fuck yourself.
2. Go get your fuckin' shinebox.

Step 3 is convincing yourself that you Totally Fucking PWN Noobz on teh Internetz. Looks like you're well on your way.

Better to just dismiss me as a knuckle-dragging moron. Safer for your fragile self___. I'm okay with that, cupcake. Wouldn't want you to chip a nail when you unleash your frustration on your Hello Kitty pillow tonight.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 08:43 PM (PLHIl)

304 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 07, 2011 08:43 PM (PLHIl)

Now, with 100% less evidence!

Wait, is that possible? Never mind, it's a joke, and jokes don't need evidence!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 08:51 PM (bxiXv)

305 I agree completely. The whole thing mind is boggling in its stupidity. I
just want to know the actual purpose for the conception of this idea.
The gun control conspiracy angle is too easy to disprove for me to
completely buy into it. Maybe that was the reason, but if it was, I
can't see how it ends any other way than it has.

Now I'm sure you're Ace.

I keep showing you that if Brian Terry doesn't die nobody even suspects there was an operation. That is how it ends differently than it has. I will agree that once everything blew up there is no way for it to end differently. Stonewalling is the only option once the operation is exposed.

Of course if this is just an abortion dreamed up by some eager subordinates - why would the DOJ and the White House be Stonewalling? To protect eager subordinates? This from the very people who invented "Under the bus with you."?

How exactly did those eager but misguided subordinates get the White House to go along with them and finance the operation with the money in the Stimulus bill? What was their contact at the White House who could have by passed the chain of command at DOJ (since we know the head of the ATF Melson was watching on TV) to get it written into the stimulus bill?

See those aren't straw men easily kicked over. Those are questions that have no possible answer other than conspiracy.

The Stonewalling and subpoena dodging are proof of guilt by the parties doing it.

Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 08:53 PM (ylhEn)

306 I just cant stop reading this. Its so cool, so full of information that I just didnt know. Im glad to see that people are actually writing about this issue in such a smart way, showing us all different sides to it. Youre a great blogger. Please keep it up. I cant wait to read whats next.

Posted by: Clockwork Prince epub at December 07, 2011 09:06 PM (fSu1C)

307 Now I'm sure you're Ace.

Another conspiracy cracked! Nice job Governor Ventura. Sorry to cut this short, but I'm going home for dinner and you probably have some more research to do on why the Pope used HAARP to cause that tsunami in Japan.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 09:07 PM (+lsX1)

308 By the way, what is the over - under on when the DOJ inspector general investigation ends and tells us who was responsible for FF?

I have the 12th of Never, and that's a long long time.

I'll certainly be holding my breath waiting for the report.

Its been almost a year since Brian Terry died and the whole DOJ with the resources of the FBI at their disposal can't figure out who was behind FF. Seriously - if it were a rouge operation by a subordinate one agent could track that down in a week tops. On his lunch hours.

Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 09:08 PM (ylhEn)

309 Another conspiracy cracked! Nice job Governor
Ventura. Sorry to cut this short, but I'm going home for dinner and you
probably have some more research to do on why the Pope used HAARP to
cause that tsunami in Japan.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 07, 2011 09:07 PM (+lsX1)
How exactly would Ace using a sock puppet be a conspiracy? Inquiring minds want to know.
Perhaps the phrase you were searching for would be "Your poorly formed hypotheses based on a hunch is incorrect".In any case I think everyone can do the arithmetic on who got their straw men arguments demolished and who didn't have any straw men to be demolished. I believe a fair examination would show that you wound up with a big Bagel on your side of the score sheet.In any case: Run Away, Run Away, Bravely Run Away.

Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 09:31 PM (ylhEn)

310 I was very happy to search out this web-site.I needed to thanks to your time for this excellent read!! I definitely enjoying each little little bit of it and I have you bookmarked to check out new stuff you weblog post.

Posted by: Screw Business As Usual ePub at December 07, 2011 09:46 PM (N5zsV)

311 I notice the following things: you never defend your previous thesis
after I kick one of your straw men over. You simply erect another straw
man for me to kick over.

You didn't kick anything over,
you just made another guess. I'm not sure why you're so goddamned
insistent that I should agree with your conspiracy theory. The reasoning
behind your posts suggests that you should be accustomed to people
disagreeing with, belittling and mocking you. Why single me out? Anyhoo,
as I've already written, it very well could have been a conspiracy to
aid in the trampling of our R2KBA. I'm just saying, if that was the
purpose of FF, it was the dumbest plan ever and doomed to blow up
in exactly the way it blew up. It just appears to be too stupid to make
sense, but, as you have demonstrated, we are not suffering from a
shortage of stupidity.

First of all I really don't care whether or not anyone agrees with me.

I have directed everything that I said toward demonstrating that there is a way that hypothetical conspirators would have had a reasonable expectation of the operation succeeding and no one finding out about it. It simply wasn't doomed to blow up in exactly the way it blew up. It blew up because Brian Terry died and Dodson blew the whistle. Those events would not be predictable to hypothetical conspirators.

The Watergate conspirators had a reasonable expectation of getting away with their actions. Watergate looks like complete idiocy in retrospect only because we found out what happened. Had that conspiracy succeeded there would be no one the wiser to mock the idiocy of it.

All criminal conspiracies are idiotic in retrospect - if you find out about them - that is. To claim that FF can't be a conspiracy because it is too stupid a plan ignores that simple truth about actual criminal conspiracies.

Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 10:04 PM (ylhEn)

312 I hope you never stop! This is one of the best blogs Ive ever read. Youve got some mad skill here, man. I just hope that you dont lose your style because youre definitely one of the coolest bloggers out there. Please keep it up because the internet needs someone like you spreading the word.

Posted by: War and Remembrance AudioBook at December 07, 2011 10:04 PM (vyWoS)

313 Has it occurred to anyone to question why the cartel killers left behind guns they knew could be traced to US gun dealers at the Brian Terry murder site?

Perhaps they didn't want to have guns that forensics could match to a capital case killing - but contract hit men generally aren't bothered by that and don't leave their guns behind when they kill someone - they dispose of them at other sites.

The Cartels knew they were paying a subsidized price for the US guns, and they knew that the only people who would be subsidizing them would be government agents. There is no chance of fooling them with a sting operation under those conditions.

Perhaps leaving those guns behind was the Cartel's way of passing a message back to the government agents; Just who do you gringos think you are fooling here?

Posted by: An Observation at December 07, 2011 10:37 PM (ylhEn)

314 “They were giving themselves a license to legally lie,” Senator Grassley deadpanned. “This was supposed to be the most transparent administration we’ve ever seen. Well, they’re not.”

This Administration is at least as rotten as that of Richard Nixon.

Posted by: #OccupyAnthonyWeinersShorts at December 07, 2011 11:09 PM (e8kgV)

315 This Administration is at least as rotten as that of Richard Nixon.
Posted by: #OccupyAnthonyWeinersShorts at December 07, 2011 11:09 PM (e8kgV)

Obama makes Tricky Dick look like Mr. Rogers.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 07, 2011 11:29 PM (bxiXv)

316 Very shocking article

Posted by: 香港屋網 at December 08, 2011 01:07 AM (9311h)

317 That is useful information and its quite easy to come a croper if you are not vigilant.

Posted by: Everyday Happy Herbivore ePub at December 08, 2011 03:24 AM (7IOBI)

318 Ace, you may not believe that Fast and Furious is part of a larger Obama administration effort to subvert the Second Amendment, but the list of people who do is growing fast. It's very difficult to look at the big picture of Obama's lawlessness and come to any other conclusion. I, for one, think Obama and his fellow travelers have to be held accountable for their crimes, and we should start with impeachment of our corrupt SCOAMF.

Posted by: nraendowment at December 08, 2011 09:22 AM (hOs8W)

319 Had that conspiracy succeeded there would be no one the wiser to mock the idiocy of it.
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