Finally: Drudge Devotes Major Headline to Fast & Furious

Emphasizing that taxpayers paid to arm a murderous Mexican drug cartel.

It's a good starter article on the subject, too. Someone who hasn't paid attention so far might be a bit startled by this one-paragraph opening digest:

Not only did U.S. officials approve, allow and assist in the sale of more than 2,000 guns to the Sinaloa cartel -- the federal government used taxpayer money to buy semi-automatic weapons, sold them to criminals and then watched as the guns disappeared.

This story really has not had anything like the media coverage it ought to have.

That shocking one-paragraph opener might change that.

How negligent was the government? So negligent it's not even negligence at all.

According to documents obtained by Fox News, Agent John Dodson was ordered to buy six semi-automatic Draco pistols -- two of those were purchased at the Lone Wolf gun store in Peoria, Ariz. An unusual sale, Dodson was sent to the store with a letter of approval from David Voth, an ATF group supervisor.

Dodson then sold the weapons to known illegal buyers, while fellow agents watched from their cars nearby.

This was not a "buy-bust" or a sting operation, where police sell to a buyer and then arrest them immediately afterward. In this case, agents were "ordered" to let the sale go through and follow the weapons to a stash house.

According to sources directly involved in the case, Dodson felt strongly that the weapons should not be abandoned and the stash house should remain under 24-hour surveillance. However, Voth disagreed and ordered the surveillance team to return to the office. Dodson refused, and for six days in the desert heat kept the house under watch, defying direct orders from Voth.

A week later, a second vehicle showed up to transfer the weapons. Dodson called for an interdiction team to move in, make the arrest and seize the weapons. Voth refused and the guns disappeared with no surveillance.

According to a story posted Sunday on a website dedicated to covering Fast and Furious, Voth gave Dodson the assignment to "dirty him up," since Dodson had become the most vocal critic of the operation.

Apparently James Dodson opposed the policy and the operation, so they... "dirtied him up" with it, to keep him quiet. (It didn't work.)

That FoxNews story, by the way, is substantially based on an exclusive from Sipsey Street Irregulars, who had the story first and, apparently, correct and confirmed.

Thanks to Scott J.

Posted by: Ace at 03:32 PM



Comments

1 you scoamf, bro?

Posted by: Max Power at September 26, 2011 03:34 PM (q177U)

2 I'm not holding my breath waiting for MSNBC to cover it.

Posted by: taylork at September 26, 2011 03:34 PM (5wsU9)

3 Solyndra doesn't really bother me nearly as much as Gunwalker. Solyndra is bad, but its pretty typical for Washington DC. Gunwalker is unprecedented, deliberate assistance of murderous gangs to promote a constitution-mangling anti gun effort. Its absolutely horrific and shocking.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at September 26, 2011 03:35 PM (r4wIV)

4 From the bottom of the story are two paragraphs that are skull-worthy IMO:
According to sources directly involved in the case, Dodson felt strongly that the weapons should not be abandoned and the stash house should remain under 24-hour surveillance. However, Voth disagreed and ordered the surveillance team to return to the office. Dodson refused, and for six days in the desert heat kept the house under watch, defying direct orders from Voth.
A week later, a second vehicle showed up to transfer the weapons. Dodson called for an interdiction team to move in, make the arrest and seize the weapons. Voth refused and the guns disappeared with no surveillance.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 03:36 PM (/bVuS)

5 Drudge just posts what Alex Jones wants him to post
*runs*

Posted by: AuthorLMendez (Back To Being A Neutral That Pisses Everyone off) at September 26, 2011 03:36 PM (yAor6)

6 Whose came up with this operation and why? That's what I want to know.

Posted by: Dr Spank at September 26, 2011 03:36 PM (Sh42X)

7 Fox had a story on earlier (that I kinda sorta paid attention to) about the Mexican cartels demanding "protection money" from Mexican school teachers.

Just wait until dead teachers turn up and the weapons are linked to Fast Furious.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at September 26, 2011 03:36 PM (UOM48)

8 the weapons are called "six semi-automatic Draco pistols".

If you google that weapon you'll see it is a Romanian manufactured cut-down AK-47.

Posted by: streiff at September 26, 2011 03:37 PM (UT5Ma)

9

Maybe that story should be linked to this one. These are the people Obama was selling guns to.

Posted by: Ben at September 26, 2011 03:37 PM (wuv1c)

10 Obama lied, people died.

Posted by: © Sponge at September 26, 2011 03:38 PM (UK9cE)

11 This should be noted.

Posted by: lu at September 26, 2011 03:38 PM (pLTLS)

12 Maybe this story will have legs: 8 furry, deadly, fast furious legs--like a tarantula

maybe this story will dance for us, entertain us, enlighten us, dazzle us; maybe not......

Posted by: SantaRosaStan, only occasionally wrong at September 26, 2011 03:38 PM (UqKQV)

13 They tortured the female blogger, mutilated her, cut her head off and put it a top the stone carved globe at the columbus monument with a sign.

Posted by: Ben at September 26, 2011 03:38 PM (wuv1c)

14 It is impossible to see this as anything other than a deliberate act of war.

Posted by: mongo78 at September 26, 2011 03:39 PM (2b46R)

15

> 2 I'm not holding my breath waiting for MSNBC to cover it.

Posted by: taylork

If Obama resigns, MSNBC's top story will be Biden's promotion.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at September 26, 2011 03:39 PM (5Z/+/)

16 I'm glad to see this story finally gaining some traction.

Mike Vanderboegh and David Codrea have been all over this since late last year, when no one wanted to listen.

Now it is finally shown that this was not a 'sting gone bad' as the ATF and DOJ want everyone to believe.

This was a U.S. Federal Agency which broke countless Federal and International laws in an attempt to further restrict our 2nd Amendment Rights by "proving" that legal gun sales were ending up in Cartel hands.

Posted by: TXMarko at September 26, 2011 03:40 PM (Pl1yK)

17 I'm glad to see that Drudge has stopped sucking Putin's dick and moved him down below the main headline.

Posted by: EC at September 26, 2011 03:41 PM (GQ8sn)

18 Eric Holder's DOJ used government money to give guns to people who kill people with chainsaws on video and behead schoolteachers and bloggers.

This isn't DAILY HEADLINE FRONT PAGE NEWS because our MSM are *UTTERLY* corrupt.

I could not have *more* contempt for so-called "journalists."

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 03:41 PM (bxiXv)

19 16, multiple federal agencies it seems.
Don't forget that DEA and FBI are in on this.
Possible Dept. of State as well.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 03:41 PM (/bVuS)

20 these are the same cartels that are killing bloggers and newspaper editors?

Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 03:42 PM (QxSug)

21
Rush said today (and before) that he is absolutely sure that F'nF was designed to undermine support for the Second Amendment.

I dunno. But what other reason is there for such a foolish program?

Posted by: Soothsayer at September 26, 2011 03:42 PM (sqkOB)

22 I'm wondering if there was some kind of "moderate Iranians" as part of the plan here -- maybe Obama was actually trying to arm THIS cartel because they thought this cartel could control the others. Or something.

As in the Iran/Contra scandal.

Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 03:43 PM (nj1bB)

23 They at least put a tax on the cartels, right? No difference between them and the billionaire janitors.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 26, 2011 03:44 PM (jiVmv)

24 Fast and furious?

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at September 26, 2011 03:44 PM (RD7QR)

25 Does anyone have an official death toll from this to date?

Posted by: lu at September 26, 2011 03:44 PM (pLTLS)

26 Here's my problem with Fast Furious, and I've been discussing this with my dad (who is a deeply savvy guy w/r/t these things) for a couple of months now: it's too fucking hard to boil down into the sorts of 'political corruption' tropes that usually run in DC and the nation. It's COMPLEX. There are all sorts of moving gears, necessary background knowledge, hide-the-ball games, etc. Ultimately it's hard to put a big pinpoint on where the blame lies and what it all means.

That's why he (and I) are much more bullish on Solyndra as the 'big Obama scandal' than FF -- it's the sort of mess that's easily understood and reported by both the Beltway MSM as well as the nation at large. "Political corruption, pay-to-play, corporate boondoggles, BS green jobs, taxpayers frauded out of a half billion bucks": that shit sells easily. The arcane details of FF? Not so much.

All of which is to say that this article front-paged by Drudge is perhaps the closest I've yet seen to a nice thumbnail summary of the issue. But I still don't think it's going to catch fire the way something like Solyndra might. Solyndra is 'in tune' with the current mood of the country: jobs + government spending + taxpayers on the hook + shades of a bailout = it'll play. The drugs + guns stuff of Fast Furious is a bit out of step regardless of how honestly corrupt it is.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 26, 2011 03:44 PM (D9z3D)

27 >>>I dunno. But what other reason is there for such a foolish program?

I do recall Obama telling the anti-gun crowd that was working behind the scenes on gun control
My guess is this is what he meant.

Posted by: Ben at September 26, 2011 03:44 PM (wuv1c)

28 Posted by: Ben at September 26, 2011 03:37 PM (wuv1c)


Yeah, if I were Drudge I'd have those up side by side.

Posted by: Waterhouse at September 26, 2011 03:44 PM (16lYZ)

29 I dunno. But what other reason is there for such a foolish program?

Look, we're not really all that competent, in case you hadn't noticed....

Posted by: Barack and Friends at September 26, 2011 03:45 PM (3Okgs)

30
I need a hole in my head.

Will you please give a gun to a dangerous gang member?

Posted by: random Obama rump swab at September 26, 2011 03:45 PM (sqkOB)

31 19 - Scott J:

Indeed. And Mexico is the not the only location, either. There are more operations.

Posted by: TXMarko at September 26, 2011 03:45 PM (Pl1yK)

32 The question on everyone's mind... was Voth working for the cartel?

Posted by: Texan Economist at September 26, 2011 03:45 PM (TC/9F)

33 11 This should be noted.
Posted by: lu at September 26, 2011 03:38 PM (pLTLS)

One item of horseshit in that article - Terry wasn't just killed with (not by) guns purchased by straw buyers and smuggled across the border... the straw buyers were paid by the FBI and the purchases approved, deliberately, by the ATF (not all the guns present were linked to F&F but at least one was).

I'm sick of wishy-washing.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 03:46 PM (bxiXv)

34 Dodson called for an interdiction team to move in, make the arrest and seize the weapons. Voth refused and the guns disappeared with no surveillance.
This is ridiculous!
What's that you hear from the MFM?
That's right. Crickets. Cricketsriding tumbleweeds.
We've got the most lawless administration in theWhite House that the world has ever seen, and not a peep from the g*ddamn media. It makes me so angry I could SCREAM.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at September 26, 2011 03:46 PM (4df7R)

35 Who cares about guns? According to Lady Gaga, high school bullying should be a hate crime, and only the SCOAMF has the grapes to speak truth to power: Guns don't kill people, atomic wedgies do.

Posted by: Beefy Meatball at September 26, 2011 03:47 PM (yn6XZ)

36 Thanks to Scott J.

Posted by: Ace at 03:32 PM

I am due no thanks. I'm just a Vanderboegh fanboy who is honored to have become able to call him friend over the past couple years.

I just wish I had more resources other than my e-mails and blog comments to contribute to the cause.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 03:47 PM (/bVuS)

37 People absolutely need to go to prison for this.

Posted by: KG at September 26, 2011 03:47 PM (LD21B)

38 I wish I would have started a list of all of the cf's this marxist has done from the very beginning. It would be a huge list.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 26, 2011 03:48 PM (jiVmv)

39
Mistah Obama, I love supporting illegal lay-abouts such as your lazy Auntie Zetuni and stinky Uncle Omar.

Please raise my taxes?!?!?

Posted by: random Obama rump swab at September 26, 2011 03:48 PM (sqkOB)

40 I am thinking Mr. Voth does nothave a lot of great career path options moving forward.

Posted by: AndrewsDad at September 26, 2011 03:49 PM (C2//T)

41 35
Who cares about guns? According to Lady Gaga, high school bullying should be a hate crime, and only the SCOAMF has the grapes to speak truth to power: Guns don't kill people, atomic wedgies do.

Right she was at one of Barry's fund raisers, They said she had shoes and a wig on that made her 8 feet tall. Dwarfed Barry they said. The bullying she was concerned with was against gay youths...

Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna at September 26, 2011 03:49 PM (5Wl/f)

42 Voth gave Dodson the assignment to "dirty him up," since Dodson had become the most vocal critic of the operation

I'll bet the farm that the Obama administration has a "dirty up" to-do list a mile long.

Posted by: Soap MacTavish at September 26, 2011 03:49 PM (vbh31)

43 They tortured the female blogger, mutilated her,
cut her head off and put it a top the stone carved globe at the columbus
monument with a sign.
Posted by: Ben at September 26, 2011 03:38 PM (wuv1c)
Is it time to nuke Mexico from orbit?

Posted by: already denouncing myself at September 26, 2011 03:49 PM (TSJb0)

44 Posted by: Jeff B. at September 26, 2011 03:44 PM (D9z3D)

I'm sorry it's too fucking complicated for you. Do you need a tutor?

Because this *will* be on the final exam, whether it confuses you or not.

Seriously, what's so damned difficult? The only things we don't have anything concrete on (yet) are who the top dog was and an admission of motive.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 03:50 PM (bxiXv)

45 Aaaand Christie is back in the game??

Jeeeesus. Enough of this already.

Posted by: lu at September 26, 2011 03:50 PM (pLTLS)

46 Now we have to read what Jeff B.'s dad thinks? Gottdamn.

Posted by: Papa Editor at September 26, 2011 03:51 PM (Zs83Q)

47 26, another reason I think this gets ignored (and perhaps I'm in tinfoil hat territory with this one) but if we gunnies can be right about this one then perhaps we were right about what Waco and Ruby Ridge were too.
And we just can't have that can we?

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 03:51 PM (/bVuS)

48 40
I am thinking Mr. Voth does nothave a lot of great career path options moving forward.

Posted by: AndrewsDad at September 26, 2011 03:49 PM (C2//T)
It would be great if he had exactly one option: a cozy 1 room suite with Bubba at select maxsec institute of choice. But knowing liberals, they will do everything they can to protect him, unless it interferes with their plans.

Posted by: KG at September 26, 2011 03:51 PM (LD21B)

49
1) Buy guns for the cartels

2) ???????????

3) Murder

Posted by: Dr Spank at September 26, 2011 03:51 PM (Sh42X)

50 People absolutely need to go to prison for this.

They should be sweating and looking nervously at ol' sparky for this.

Posted by: Heorot at September 26, 2011 03:52 PM (Nq/UF)

51
No Republican can mention FF or Solyndra in the debates? Not even in passing? Not even as a one-liner? How come Boehner never mention these two things?
If I was a prominent Repub, every time a lib asked me a question I would say, "I'll answer that after you ask Obama about FF."
These two scandals should be on the lips of every Repub every day.

Posted by: Mr. Maelstrom at September 26, 2011 03:52 PM (+ZX4J)

52 The Sinaloa Cartel has been described as the largest drug cartel in the Western Hemisphere.
I just Googled it and totally ripped that off the first credible (I believe) site that mentioned that.
Either way, the entire administration should spend the rest of their lives in prison while getting gand-raped every day.

Posted by: ErikW at September 26, 2011 03:52 PM (Se8cc)

53
President Sixteen-dollar Muffin

Posted by: soothie at September 26, 2011 03:52 PM (sqkOB)

54 If I paid for them, I'd like one of those 50 cals please. Where do I go to pick it up?

Posted by: Uncledave at September 26, 2011 03:53 PM (nJ32z)

55 "I need you to take your slippers off and put your boots on. Oh, and grab your semi-automatic Draco pistols, while you are at it. We are going to march!
FUCK YOU SAN DIEGO!!"

Posted by: Barak McTotus at September 26, 2011 03:54 PM (q177U)

56 This can be fixed with high speed rail and some green energy pay-offs

BOHICA....


Posted by: SantaRosaStan, only occasionally wrong at September 26, 2011 03:54 PM (UqKQV)

57
It must be said again and again that since the traces were supposed to come from Mexican crime scenes, the program was designed from the start to kill Mexicans.

And they call us racists....

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at September 26, 2011 03:54 PM (6BvaE)

58 And even better, the "guns for narco-terrorists" program was part of the stimulus package.

I wonder what they were trying to stimulate?

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 03:54 PM (bxiXv)

59
I wish I would have started a list of all of the cf's this marxist has done from the very beginning. It would be a huge list.

I started such a list in the first months of this administration when it became obvious that there were going to be too many scandals to remember. Quickly became overwhelmed and gave it up in disgust.

Posted by: Bob Saget at September 26, 2011 03:55 PM (F/4zf)

60 >>>I'm sorry it's too fucking complicated for you. Do you need a tutor?

He's bothered, as I am, that your operating theory of the crime seems implausible, a case of Evil Dudes Being Evil for the Sake of Evil.

If I saw it in a movie, I'd laugh at it.

Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 03:55 PM (nj1bB)

61 36: Scott speaks the truth. Mike Vanderboegh is a true Patriot whom I have admired for years, as well. Yet Mike struggles with his medical conditions as well as exposing the cockroaches.

He could sure use a few hits to the ole tip jar: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/

Posted by: TXMarko at September 26, 2011 03:55 PM (Pl1yK)

62 Either way, the entire administration should spend the rest of their lives in prison while getting gand-raped every day.
Posted by: ErikW at September 26, 2011 03:52 PM (Se8cc)
take that back you right wing extremist! you people are crazy!

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 03:56 PM (yAor6)

63 21
Rush said today (and before) that he is absolutely sure that F'nF was designed to undermine support for the Second Amendment.

I dunno. But what other reason is there for such a foolish program?
Posted by: Soothsayer at September 26, 2011 03:42 PM (sqkOB)



To introduce another set of terrorists into the mix--terrorists that are even more ruthless and savage than the Islamists. Endgame: to have the American public begging for martial law.

Posted by: baldilocks at September 26, 2011 03:56 PM (T2/zQ)

64 And we just can't have that can we?

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 03:51 PM (/bVuS)

There has been an "icky gun people" vibe to the non-coverage in various places (particularly in the conservative blogosphere). I wonder how much that has to do with the elected GOP - they usually want to be buddy-buddy with the NRA and while the NRA was late to the game they have been pushing this story.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 03:56 PM (bxiXv)

65 http://tinyurl.com/2ufqm4z

Posted by: NY Times Editors at September 26, 2011 03:56 PM (hXJOG)

66 7
Fox had a story on earlier (that I kinda sorta paid attention to) about
the Mexican cartels demanding "protection money" from Mexican school
teachers. Just wait until dead teachers turn up and the weapons are linked to Fast Furious.

Depends how they do it, as guns may not be directly involved.

Earlier this year, one of the cartels demanded protection money from a casino then, when they didn't get it, they blocked all the doors and burned it down, killing at least 50.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at September 26, 2011 03:56 PM (VZ10+)

67 How is this not an act of war against Mexico? No, seriously, that's not rhetorical, this is just as much as act of war against Mexico as the various border crossings by the Mexican military have been in the recent years.

Posted by: alexthechick at September 26, 2011 03:57 PM (VtjlW)

68 Kind of puts a new spin on Obama's exhortations to the Hispanic community to get out the vote in 2010 and "punish" their "enemies," now doesn't it?

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at September 26, 2011 03:57 PM (4df7R)

69 This can be fixed with high speed rail and some green energy pay-offsBOHICA....
Posted by: SantaRosaStan, only occasionally wrong at September 26, 2011 03:54 PM (UqKQV)
stop attacking High Speed Rail radical! it's the future!

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 03:57 PM (yAor6)

70 They WANTED to guns to be used.

Posted by: Barak McTotus at September 26, 2011 03:58 PM (q177U)

71 I wonder what they were trying to stimulate?
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 03:54 PM (bxiXv)

Maybe some constitutional change, as in circumvent the 2nd Amendment. Or, some favor they're doing whatshisname, the Mexican president.

Posted by: joncelli at September 26, 2011 03:59 PM (RD7QR)

72 67 How is this not an act of war against Mexico? No, seriously, that's not rhetorical, this is just as much as act of war against Mexico as the various border crossings by the Mexican military have been in the recent years.
Posted by: alexthechick at September 26, 2011 03:57 PM (VtjlW)
That's why I HAVE to believe the Mexican government was somehow involved, too. Otherwise THEY'D be making a huge stink over this, even if our government has decided it's ho-hum.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at September 26, 2011 03:59 PM (4df7R)

73 These aren't the gun sales you're looking for.

Posted by: Obi Wan Holder at September 26, 2011 03:59 PM (QKKT0)

74 64, even the NRA considers guys like me, Mike, David Codrea, et al to be "icky".
They only moved on this after MUCH prodding from the likes of us.
I am only a member due to it being a requirement of my range membership.
Gun Owner's of America is a better option.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 03:59 PM (/bVuS)

75 O/T, but I just took a look at some photos of Herman Cain, and decided he is not black enough. His blaccent is pretty good, though. We'll see what some of the sistuhs like Whoopie, Maxine, Shiela, and others have to say.

Posted by: I'm in a New York state of mind at September 26, 2011 03:59 PM (4sQwu)

76
MSNBC is all over the violent practices used by the police against the peaceful Wall Street protesters.

Or...

MSNBC lies and presents this bullshit as a news story.


Posted by: soothie at September 26, 2011 04:00 PM (sqkOB)

77 stop attacking High Speed Rail radical! it's the future!

No, wind and solar power are the future! You know that because they've been the future for almost 40 years.

Posted by: Heorot at September 26, 2011 04:00 PM (Nq/UF)

78
MY GOD, NOT SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS!!!!

sorry for the aside, but when media reports reference "semi-automatic weapons" it always makes me chuckle

Posted by: dan-O at September 26, 2011 04:00 PM (sWycd)

79 Rush said today (and before) that he is absolutely sure that F'nF was designed to undermine support for the Second Amendment.I dunno. But what other reason is there for such a foolish program?
Posted by: Soothsayer at September 26, 2011 03:42 PM (sqkOB)

None. None whatsoever. Whether someone has mentioned this or not, but the SCOAMF did say there were behind-the-scenes things going on that would help the gun control lobby.

Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at September 26, 2011 04:01 PM (uoloY)

80 Posted by: Heorot at September 26, 2011 04:00 PM (Nq/UF)
theyre also the future too! you right wing wackos must accept that green jobs are the next big thing!

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 04:01 PM (yAor6)

81 He's bothered, as I am, that your operating theory of the crime seems implausible, a case of Evil Dudes Being Evil for the Sake of Evil.

If I saw it in a movie, I'd laugh at it.
Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 03:55 PM (nj1bB)

OMG THE FACTS OF THE CASE do not depend on my "operating theory" (I don't have one, I has a AWAG about the motive).

The facts are the freaking facts and there are enough of them to know how horrific this operation was.

You also act like no one has ever done anything evil, which is in stark contrast to several thousand years of recorded human history, in which it appears to be the norm rather than the exception.

The SWAG about motive is that they thought they had a plan that would, without itself being revealed, provide a pretext for regulations that they believed would save lives, probably with additional unknown motives (we have several cases of corrupt border police and other law enforcement well-documented).

But that hypothesis is not even necessary to cover the story, which is about what actually happened. Because it did happen. It's right there. Looking at you. Waiting.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 04:01 PM (bxiXv)

82 Wonder if they had to call in a background check? Where did the paper work go? The gun dealer needs the paperwork, of ATF will come back and fuck him.

This smells worse than that tranny the ewok brought to the CT hookup.

Posted by: Billy Bob, the guy who drinks in SC at September 26, 2011 04:01 PM (hXJOG)

83
You will note, in the above vid, that the piece of shit being interviewed by the MSNBC fool is some douche who doesn't want to pay rent.

ya, really

Posted by: soothie at September 26, 2011 04:01 PM (sqkOB)

84 SO BROWN PEOPLE CAN'T HAVE GUNS BUT JEWS AND WHITE PEOPLE CAN? RASCIST, FACIST NAZIS ALL OF YOU?

Posted by: KayInMaine at September 26, 2011 04:02 PM (sx8OE)

85 some douche who doesn't want to pay rent.ya, really
Posted by: soothie at September 26, 2011 04:01 PM (sqkOB)
whats wrong with that?

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 04:02 PM (yAor6)

86 But where's the crime, Ace? The government can sell arms, right? Where the crime? Nontroversy!!!

Posted by: that certain troll at September 26, 2011 04:02 PM (AZGON)

87
As in the Iran/Contra scandal.





Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 03:43 PM (nj1bB)
The weapons Reagan sold to Iran were used on Saddam Hussein's military.The weapons Obama sold to the cartels were used to kill cops and reporters.Not seeing much of a connection.

Posted by: 18-1 at September 26, 2011 04:02 PM (7BU4a)

88 Posted by: KayInMaine at September 26, 2011 04:02 PM (sx8OE)
the Republican party must cut its ties to racism!

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 04:03 PM (yAor6)

89 I think I'll piss on the next person that tells me Obama loves this country and only wants to see it succeed.

Posted by: © Sponge at September 26, 2011 04:03 PM (UK9cE)

90 Speaking of the #OccupyWallStreet dickbags, here's what our streets would look like if these smelly hippie tools were in charge.

(actual picture btw)

Posted by: lu at September 26, 2011 04:03 PM (pLTLS)

91 Everything I've read about this clusterfuck so far says we ought to be making a reservation for David Voth at the nearest federal pen.

He's apparently a grade-A scumbag, which is exactly the type you'd expect to succeed at BATFE.

Posted by: Andy at September 26, 2011 04:03 PM (z6jMn)

92 Posted by: 18-1 at September 26, 2011 04:02 PM (7BU4a)
Reagan was more liberal then you dopes think

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 04:04 PM (yAor6)

93 No justice, no piece!

Posted by: Maxine Waters at September 26, 2011 04:04 PM (AZGON)

94 72, The other angle on this is not only can it be used domestically to attack the 2nd Amendment going across international borders makes it a taylor-made issue to push the UN Small Arms Treaty
I've said it before, this scandal proves beyond a shadow of a doubt these monsters will kill to advance their agenda. Contemplating that fact probably adds to the "ick" factor for many on the conservative side. They like to think we can still compromise with these monsters.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:05 PM (/bVuS)

95 Dammit! Someone left the KayInMaine out of its cage again.

Posted by: Andy at September 26, 2011 04:05 PM (z6jMn)

96 He's bothered, as I am, that your operating theory of the crime seems
implausible, a case of Evil Dudes Being Evil for the Sake of Evil.





Nonsense. "The US Government sold guns to Mexican gang-bangers who then
went on a murder spree of government officials and a US Border Patrol
officer" makes the Administration look completely terrible all by
itself. And it's just as easy to state as Solyndra (possibly easier as additional wrinkles come out about that case).

Posted by: Ian S. at September 26, 2011 04:05 PM (tqwMN)

97 67 How is this not an act of war against Mexico?

Posted by: alexthechick at September 26, 2011 03:57 PM (VtjlW)

Because apparently *certain people* are above the law, by virtue of their secular Messiah-ness.

One does wonder why Mexico's demands on this have been so tempered. I would be screaming my bloody head clean off.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 04:05 PM (bxiXv)

98 Visualize Wurrelled Peas!

Posted by: Shelia Jackson at September 26, 2011 04:05 PM (hXJOG)

99 I've said it before, this scandal proves beyond a shadow of a doubt these monsters will kill to advance their agenda. Contemplating that fact probably adds to the "ick" factor for many on the conservative side. They like to think we can still compromise with these monsters.
Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:05 PM (/bVuS)
ok so you think people who disagree with you are monsters too? how sick are you conservatives! we need to compromise and stop being the party of no!

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 04:06 PM (yAor6)

100 Yeah, I have been thinking that for a while if one or more the repub candidates said in response to an immigration question, "Well, the first thing we can do is stop the Obama Administration from selling guns to the murderous mexican drug cartels."

Thats like 5 seconds of their time. And if it is said on an MSNBC debate the better.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 26, 2011 04:06 PM (jiVmv)

101 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at September 26, 2011 04:06 PM (fyOgS)

102 going across international borders makes it a taylor-made issue

Hey, golf! Maybe I will look into this.

Posted by: B. Hussein Obama at September 26, 2011 04:06 PM (AZGON)

103 As in the Iran/Contra scandal.


I'd better go back and see if I can gain some context on that one. Are you serious?

Posted by: Soap MacTavish at September 26, 2011 04:06 PM (vbh31)

104 No free stuff no peace!

Posted by: Random Smelly Hippies at September 26, 2011 04:06 PM (RD7QR)

105 It bears repeating from an earlier thread.

This SCOAMFplifier goes to 11.

Posted by: grognard at September 26, 2011 04:06 PM (NS2Mo)

106 Fucking Spaniard conquistadors, come here back in like 1504 or something, take a bunch of peaceful Mexicas, Aztecs, and Mayans, teach them a bunch of blood-n-guts stuff they had to learn back over in Spain in order to drive the Muslim Moors out, and the next thing you know, we get murderous Mexicans doing more beheadings than the Jihadis.

Comes around, doesn't it?

Posted by: I'm in a New York state of mind at September 26, 2011 04:06 PM (4sQwu)

107 Lu

I think you meant to link to this:

Former New Jersey governor Tom Kean, who has known Chris Christie since he was a teenager and remains an informal adviser, tells National Review Online that the governor is “very seriously” considering a presidential bid.

“It’s real,” Kean says. “He’s giving it a lot of thought. I think the odds are a lot better now than they were a couple weeks ago.”

Christie remains undecided, Kean says, but is listening closely to pleas from party leaders. The chance for a “Jersey guy” to rise, Kean says, is not something Christie has sought. But now, with the field up for grabs, he is actively mulling a late entry.

“More and more people are talking to him,” Kean says. “He’s getting appeals from major figures around the country.” Kean, for his part, is also encouraging the first-term Republican to jump in. “He is the best speaker I may have ever heard in politics,” he tells me.

“In an era when most people suspect that politicians read polls and then tell you what they think, people don’t believe he’s that kind of a fellow,” Kean says. “He tells you what he thinks, period. We like that around here.”

“A lot of people are not satisfied with the field,” Kean says. “I know he’s getting advice from all sides.” In coming days, “he’s not going to tease anybody.” If circumstances do change — and Kean makes no predictions — “he’s not going to hide.

*******

Well duh...you try playing Hide the Shamu.

******

Jeff B.

Hell F&F, Solyndra and LightSquared are all missing the same thing-

sex.

Posted by: Jewish Janitor at September 26, 2011 04:07 PM (rJVPU)

108 ABOUT.DAMN.TIME.

Posted by: PPF at September 26, 2011 04:07 PM (uW+NQ)

109 Wonder if they had to call in a background check? Where did the paper work go? The gun dealer needs the paperwork, of ATF will come back and fuck him.
Go read the letter from Voth. It specifically instructed the dealer to sell Dodson the guns WITHOUT doing a form 4473 or a background check.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:07 PM (/bVuS)

110 Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) and Rep.
Darrell Issa (R-CA) asked the White House to make former National
Security Advisor Kevin O'Reilly available for an interview, White House responds that he is "currently on a previously scheduled assignment to Iraq."

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at September 26, 2011 04:08 PM (e8kgV)

111 Posted by: lu at September 26, 2011 03:50 PM (pLTLS)

It is supposed to be a joke.

Posted by: SEIU Reps at September 26, 2011 04:08 PM (LH6ir)

112 Reagan was more liberal then you dopes think

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 04:04 PM (yAor6)
There he goes again....

Posted by: Zombie Reagan at September 26, 2011 04:08 PM (7BU4a)

113 Gun Owner's of America is a better option.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 03:59 PM (/bVuS)

Better ideologically, NRA has a bigger purse and honestly has got more done, even if they're inconsistent, slow, and too buddy-buddy with representatives.

We kind of need them both.

Trust me, I've spent plenty of time pissed off at the NRA for their shenanigans, but they have done a lot of good as well. Sometimes they seem to be stupid for the sake of stupid.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 04:09 PM (bxiXv)

114 Lu



I think you meant to link to this:

Yes, thank you for the clarification. I'm a linking fool today. Or just a fool. Take yer pick.

Posted by: lu at September 26, 2011 04:09 PM (pLTLS)

115 There's a petition to repeal Obamacare on the White House web site.

Here's the article from Gateway Pundit.

Posted by: Reno_Dave at September 26, 2011 04:09 PM (OL4L4)

116 Posted by: Reno_Dave at September 26, 2011 04:09 PM (OL4L4)
leave Obama alone!

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 04:10 PM (yAor6)

117 102, damn. What a slip up. And I hate golf too.
Most golf courses would make great firing ranges

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:10 PM (/bVuS)

118 We gave Mexico guns, Perry wanted to give them health insurance.

Conservatives should love me.

Posted by: Barry at September 26, 2011 04:11 PM (hXJOG)

119 113, agreed. Unlike many in the movement I don't think the NRA needs to go away.
IMO, they really lost their way after LaPierre uttered the "jack-booted thugs" comment and then folded under the return fire on that.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:12 PM (/bVuS)

120 You realize, of course, that if they throw Voth under the bus, Jamie Gorelick is next in line for that job?

Posted by: Little Miss Spellcheck at September 26, 2011 04:12 PM (xqhoO)

121 Posted by: Barry at September 26, 2011 04:11 PM (hXJOG)
Perry is an unelectable extremist, He better lose or i'm thinking of voting for Obama

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 04:12 PM (yAor6)

122 Merovign, oh for God's sakes. I cover the story every three days.

I am explaining to you that you can turn your OUTRAGEOUSLY OUTRAGED OUTRAGE BUTTON to the "off" position over the fact that someone like Jeff might not think this is going to be the one that gets Obama.

It's easier for some to think this will be The One: Because the operating theory they have is that this just proves the government is in a Reichstag Fire Conspiracy to gun-grab.

Turn off the goddamned OUTRAGE over people's skepticism about this.

This plays into some people's mythical narratives about the Individual versus the Corrupt State Which Wishes to Kill them. Some of us don't subscribe to that mythical narrative.

But yes, as IanS. and you (in your less outraged moments say) the facts are enough, and Obama will not divulge the actual goal here (except to lie about it).

Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 04:12 PM (nj1bB)

123 Most golf courses would make great firing ranges
Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:10 PM (/bVuS)

That happens more often than you would believe.

Posted by: ErikW at September 26, 2011 04:12 PM (Se8cc)

124 AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother

Thanks big boy, you got those marching shoes on?

Posted by: Barry at September 26, 2011 04:13 PM (hXJOG)

125 You realize, of course, that if they throw Voth under the bus, Jamie Gorelick is next in line for that job?

Gorelick. Also known as Goddess Mayhem. In her path nothing lies scattered but debris.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 26, 2011 04:13 PM (AZGON)

126 I also get what ace is saying about Iran / Contra, despite it being a flawed analogy that provokes an instant response from a lot of people.

There appears to be an aspect of favoring one cartel over others here, possibly some kind of retarded plan to kill off all the cartels but one and thus reduce violence between cartels - which is insane because then while reducing violence *between* cartels you open up their resources to be focused at killing government officials and critics.

That seems to be what the State Department was doing / is doing in Honduras.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 04:13 PM (bxiXv)

127 Posted by: Barry at September 26, 2011 04:13 PM (hXJOG)
hell yes I do if my party nominates a freak this time!

Posted by: AuthorLMendez's Self-Loathing Conservative Brother at September 26, 2011 04:13 PM (yAor6)

128 hell yes I do if my party nominates a freak this time!

Don't worry, I don't have a chance.

Posted by: Ron Paul at September 26, 2011 04:15 PM (hXJOG)

129 2012 is still a long time from now. No telling what the SCOAMF has planned in his remaining year. It won't be good.

Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at September 26, 2011 04:15 PM (uoloY)

130 so now you guys know what it's like to have a Huntsman Republican for a brother, lecturing you on how our party should be run and how extremist I am all the while holding no job and taking money from the wife. and as he says "i'm the real mature adult!"
that was fun socking him, I should do it again...

Posted by: AuthorLMendez (Neutral Again But Rooting Against Mittens) at September 26, 2011 04:15 PM (yAor6)

131 We should all realize there will never be a story that will be The One That Gets Barack. The media will make sure that will never happen, even if he's caught with both a live boy and a dead girl.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 26, 2011 04:15 PM (AZGON)

132 123, and to clarify I meant converting the real estate not using the golfers for running target practice.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:16 PM (/bVuS)

133 That's why he (and I) are much more bullish on Solyndra as the 'big Obama scandal' than FF -- it's the sort of mess that's easily understood and reported by both the Beltway MSM as well as the nation at large.
Posted by: Jeff B. at September 26, 2011 03:44 PM (D9z3D)
Why no both? BE the glutton!

Posted by: giftogab at September 26, 2011 04:16 PM (SPVfc)

134 I'm the 505th signer of the petition. They need 5K to get a WH response.

Posted by: Reno_Dave at September 26, 2011 04:16 PM (OL4L4)

135 Ace,

If we can spend countless pixels parsing out why Perry's Tardasil mandate wasn't actually a mandate, among other complex issues we are currently using to attack GOP candidates, then thisa issue can easily be distilled down to a simple line of attack.

"Obama's DOJ Gave Weapons to the Drug Cartels."

"Weapons That Obama's DOJ Gave to Drug Cartels Linked to 200 Murders, Including U.S. Border Agent."

It's simple, and factual. That's the line of attack. We don't have explain the fucking thing or provide motivation.

All we have to do is say, "Mr. President, your Dept of Justice gave thousands of weapons to the Mexican drug cartels, which they used in over 200 murders, including that of U.S. Border Agent Brian Terry.

WHY DID YOUR DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DO THAT?"

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 26, 2011 04:16 PM (z/Mo8)

136 Posted by: Ron Paul at September 26, 2011 04:15 PM (hXJOG)
Drudge will be sad. I suspect he's a Paul guy

Posted by: AuthorLMendez (Neutral Again But Rooting Against Mittens) at September 26, 2011 04:16 PM (yAor6)

137 so now you guys know what it's like to have a Huntsman Republican for a brother,

Oh, you mean a Democrat.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 26, 2011 04:16 PM (AZGON)

138 You realize, of course, that if they throw Voth under the bus, Jamie Gorelick is next in line for that job?
Posted by: Little Miss Spellcheck

You can't be serious!

Posted by: IreneFingIrene at September 26, 2011 04:17 PM (JNqU9)

139 Merovign, I'm just thrilled to have Ace on board. I only e-mailed the hell out of him starting in January

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:17 PM (/bVuS)

140 even if he's caught with both a live boy and a dead girl.
Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 26, 2011 04:15 PM (AZGON)

STOP TAUNTING ME!

Posted by: Zombie Ted Kennedy at September 26, 2011 04:17 PM (SPVfc)

141 @135

The GOP establishment does not appreciate your candor.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 26, 2011 04:18 PM (AZGON)

142 I'm lacking knowledge here. Prior to these last couple of years was it normal to use beheading as a warning to those that disagreed in Mexico?

or is that a new skill brought from terrorists that might also be in mexico?

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:19 PM (h+qn8)

143 To paraphrase Orwell: The object of chaos is chaos.

Posted by: DarkLord© sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada!
at September 26, 2011 04:19 PM (GBXon)

144 I don't care if this "gets Obama", I'd like to know whose idea it was to sell guns to murderers and why.

Posted by: Dr Spank at September 26, 2011 04:19 PM (Sh42X)

145 Posted by: Dr Spank at September 26, 2011 04:19 PM (Sh42X)
you dont understand the overall goal do you?

Posted by: The Brady Campaign at September 26, 2011 04:20 PM (yAor6)

146 131, this one won't reach the SCOAMF but just might take down Holder and possibly even Hillary.
There are many "conservatives" who will resist it getting to Holder because they voted to confirm him.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:20 PM (/bVuS)

147 and to clarify I meant converting the real estate not using the golfers for running target practice.
Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:16 PM (/bVuS)
LOL!
No, the golf course I work at has a 500 yard practice range (teeson either end) and it's been set up as a gun range from time to time.

Posted by: ErikW at September 26, 2011 04:20 PM (Se8cc)

148 I'm the 505th signer of the petition. They need 5K to get a WH response.

Betcha I already know the response.

Posted by: DarkLord© sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada!
at September 26, 2011 04:20 PM (GBXon)

149 this isn't SCFOMF, its way beyond that. This isn't mere stupidity is outright evil.

Posted by: Texan Economist at September 26, 2011 04:21 PM (TC/9F)

150 Posted by: Reno_Dave at September 26, 2011 04:16 PM (OL4L4)

Thanks, your on the list, extremist!

Posted by: Janfat Napolitano at September 26, 2011 04:21 PM (jiVmv)

151 I'm wondering if there was some kind of "moderate
Iranians" as part of the plan here -- maybe Obama was actually trying to
arm THIS cartel because they thought this cartel could control the
others. Or something.



Posted by: ace
Zero sense in that. If they wanted to arm them, they would have set up shell companies overseas, bought Chinese arms, and shipped them into to Mexico in forty-foot fucking containers. Why the fuck would they 'arm' them with single purchases from US stores that are required to document their business?

Second, there's no need to invent new elements here. These operations were political. Full stop.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at September 26, 2011 04:22 PM (s1vtf)

152 All we have to do is say, "Mr. President, your Dept of Justice gave thousands of weapons to the Mexican drug cartels, which they used in over 200 murders, including that of U.S. Border Agent Brian Terry.

WHY DID YOUR DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DO THAT?"

Would it be too much to ask Perry and Romney to stop quibbling about quotes from their books and fucking demand an answer from Obama about this?

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 26, 2011 04:23 PM (AZGON)

153 Betcha I already know the response.

I do too, but it will be interesting to see how many signatories this petition will generate by Oct 22, and how long it will remain on the WH site.

Posted by: Reno_Dave at September 26, 2011 04:23 PM (OL4L4)

154 Second, there's no need to invent new elements here. These operations were political. Full stop.

This is beyond politics. This is strategic. This is an act of war, and not just against Mexico.

That bad feeling in my gut just got worse.

Posted by: DarkLord© sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada!
at September 26, 2011 04:23 PM (GBXon)

155 while Solyndra is Big.

I would think many of the american people would believe giving guns to criminals and gangs to try to change gun laws here, and Hundreds were Murdered is something they would detest and pay attention to.

solyndra might sound like halliburton to some. (they all do it) is their excuse. unless it is Really understood.

dead people it's bigger.

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:24 PM (h+qn8)

156 "...take a bunch of peaceful Mexicas, Aztecs, and Mayans, teach them a bunch
of blood-n-guts stuff they had to learn back over in Spain in order to
drive the Muslim Moors out..."

Damn right. Now excuse me while I go to the sacrifice and cut out someone's beating heart. Or maybe eat a baby.

Posted by: Peaceful, Idyllic Aztec Guy at September 26, 2011 04:24 PM (kPT11)

157 It's easier for some to think this will be The One: Because the
operating theory they have is that this just proves the government is in
a Reichstag Fire Conspiracy to gun-grab.


In related news, these sort of numbers are getting dangerously bad.

Posted by: Heorot at September 26, 2011 04:24 PM (Nq/UF)

158 >>>Second, there's no need to invent new elements here. These operations were political. Full stop.

Yes I know you have no problem accepting the premise that government agents set out, knowingly, on a policy of lies and murder, for the sake of lies and murder.

I know that plays into your idea of How Things Work.

It doesn't play so well in mine.

Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 04:24 PM (nj1bB)

159 I must with bemusement confess that, of late, I do feel overcome with a sense of maple tree circulatory fluid coursing through my veins.

Posted by: David Brooks at September 26, 2011 04:25 PM (AZGON)

160 All we have to do is say, "Mr. President, your Dept of Justice gave thousands of weapons to the Mexican drug cartels, which they used in over 200 murders, including that of U.S. Border Agent Brian Terry. WHY DID YOUR DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DO THAT?"
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 26, 2011 04:16 PM (z/Mo

Well, for one thing, there's no nuance to a question like that. And the regime and MFM love nuance. Plus, it's not very sensitive. It's almost like bullying.We certainly know where this regime stands on that.

Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at September 26, 2011 04:26 PM (uoloY)

161 122 Merovign, oh for God's sakes. I cover the story every three days.

Certainly you are not suggesting that, in general, this is getting adequate coverage? Because I don't recall singling you out on this.

I am explaining to you that you can turn your OUTRAGEOUSLY OUTRAGED OUTRAGE BUTTON to the "off" position over the fact that someone like Jeff might not think this is going to be the one that gets Obama.

It's easier for some to think this will be The One: Because the operating theory they have is that this just proves the government is in a Reichstag Fire Conspiracy to gun-grab.

It's just one of many, but it's a big one. And the story itself outrages me. And the lack of coverage outrages me. And the lackadaisical attitude outrages me.

Turn off the goddamned OUTRAGE over people's skepticism about this.

If you don't buy the hypothesis about motive, fine. I certainly don't have all the answers there.

But when that turns into an excuse to deprecate or minimize one of the biggest, nastiest stories in modern politics, that starts to piss me off.

And not least of all because somebody does that with *every* scandal or official crime. We're rapidly approaching the point where people in power can get away with *anything* because there are too many voices excusing or minimizing the crimes to push past bureaucratic inertia and prosecute or even *stop* the crimes.

This plays into some people's mythical narratives about the Individual versus the Corrupt State Which Wishes to Kill them. Some of us don't subscribe to that mythical narrative.

As I've said repeatedly, the facts do not require you to. Even without the "mythical narrative" this *should* outrage you.

But I think history is unkind to the "people don't really do that sort of evil thing very much" mythical narrative.

But yes, as IanS. and you (in your less outraged moments say) the facts are enough, and Obama will not divulge the actual goal here (except to lie about it).

Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 04:12 PM (nj1bB)

I think it's appropriate to be outraged when your government takes taxpayer money and uses it to break laws in multiple countries and give weapons to people who murder people routinely, including bloggers, teachers, and public officials. Don't you?

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 04:26 PM (bxiXv)

162 Thanks, your on the list, extremist!

I am honored!

Posted by: Reno_Dave at September 26, 2011 04:26 PM (OL4L4)

163 This plays into some people's mythical narratives about the Individual versus the Corrupt State Which Wishes to Kill them.
Ace,
First, I'm glad you keep this story up.
Second, no thinks the admin wished people dead, they were simply murderously apathetic to the obvious possibility--omeletts and eggs, stuff. Because they think it will advance the gun grabbing agenda and serve the greater good. You want proof this kind of thing is possible?
Read you blog today. Carbon-offset traders burned a child to death to plant G-D trees in Africa. This craziness is not far-fetched, let alone implausible.

Posted by: Randy M at September 26, 2011 04:27 PM (vI8R6)

164 Kevin M. O’Reilly was director of North American Affairs for the White House national security staff, so what the hell is a North American Affairs official doing in Iraq ?

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at September 26, 2011 04:27 PM (e8kgV)

165 Of course this isn't the ONE that's going to "get Obama."

But even a boulder can be worn down to nothing over the years, one drip at a time. And if we all line up and start pissing all over him, we can wear this jagoff down a lot quicker.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 26, 2011 04:27 PM (z/Mo8)

166 also has anyone mentioned the fact they spoke about trying to get bad information on Grassley to stop him from investigaing

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:27 PM (h+qn8)

167 Whose came up with this operation and why? That's what I want to know.


Remember when President Obama assured anti-gun people that they had something "in the works?" Yeah.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at September 26, 2011 04:27 PM (r4wIV)

168 Apparently James Dodson opposed the policy and the operation, so they... "dirtied him up" with it, to keep him quiet. (It didn't work.)
I mean for crying out loud, this kind of motivation is only possible if the head guys know how dirty it looks to begin with!

Posted by: Randy M at September 26, 2011 04:28 PM (vI8R6)

169 158, You go Ace. Mike Vanderboegh has been a hero of mine for several yaers. Thank you for giving him the credit he so richly deserves. He kept Bill Clintons Panties in a bunch after ruby ridge and WACO.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at September 26, 2011 04:28 PM (ZDUD4)

170 I know that plays into your idea of How Things Work.



It doesn't play so well in mine.



Posted by: ace

Fortunately for the both of us the only opinion that matters right now is Daryl Issa's... Oh wait, he said it's political too.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at September 26, 2011 04:29 PM (s1vtf)

171 Carbon-offset traders burned a child to death to plant G-D trees in Africa.

How any human being can read those recent stories and look at Green Commerce with anything but hatred is a mystery.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 26, 2011 04:29 PM (AZGON)

172 You had me at we all line up and start pissing all over him.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 26, 2011 04:29 PM (AZGON)

173 172 You had me at we all line up and start pissing all over him.
Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 26, 2011 04:29 PM (AZGON)
Oh, me too!

Posted by: Bawney Fwank at September 26, 2011 04:31 PM (DrWcr)

174 Meh, who knows why they did it. They did it, that's the problem.
I wish our Presidential Candidate Brain Trust would spend time attacking Obama on this and Solyndra instead attacking each other over Slut Juice and In State Tuition. If they would they would make the media cover it.

Posted by: robtr at September 26, 2011 04:31 PM (MtwBb)

175 And More......
Earlier this month, attackers left ominous threats mentioning two websites on signs beside mutilated bodies in northern Mexico.
A woman was hogtied and disemboweled. Attackers left her topless, dangling by her feet and hands from a bridge in the border city of Nuevo Laredo. A bloodied man next to her was hanging by his hands, his right shoulder severed so deeply the bone was visible.
Signs left near the bodies declared the pair, both apparently in their 20s, were killed for posting denouncements of drug cartel activities.

Posted by: Cheri at September 26, 2011 04:31 PM (G+Wff)

176 174, Excellent point robtr. They would have to get a childish question, ignore it and launch into F&F, Solyndra, etc diatribe and force the other candidates to respond.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at September 26, 2011 04:33 PM (ZDUD4)

177 158, I keep up the outrage because I want to be proven wrong beyond a reasonable doubt. Because if our outrage is even half-right then Mike's work of fictionwill come true before he can get it published.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:33 PM (/bVuS)

178 >>>I am explaining to you that you can turn your OUTRAGEOUSLY OUTRAGED
OUTRAGE BUTTON to the "off" position over the fact that someone like
Jeff might not think this is going to be the one that gets Obama.

Yeah, I don't think Merovign gets the fact that I would *LOVE* for this to actually be "the one" that gets Obama. I just don't think it will, not on the basis of what we've got here. It's too labyrinthine, too many loose ends, too 'what's the hed' for the MSM? Whereas Solyndra is easy to sell: Obama playing favorites for political reasons, with the taxpayer on the hook, PLUS the great "jobs" and "green jobs" hooks to hang it on for particular 2011 relevance.


Posted by: Jeff B. at September 26, 2011 04:33 PM (D9z3D)

179 Don't forget about Codrea, he's a monster too. thewaronguns--- I love the daily 'we're the only ones' segment on cops behaving like cops.

Posted by: dr kill at September 26, 2011 04:34 PM (le5qc)

180 How any human being can read those recent stories and look at Green Commerce with anything but hatred is a mystery.
Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 26, 2011 04:29 PM (AZGON)
I know this sounds stupid but do you remember the video for Soundgarden's Black Hole Sun?
That's how I envision what every dipshit libtard on the planet looks like.

Posted by: ErikW at September 26, 2011 04:34 PM (Se8cc)

181 Yes I know you have no problem accepting the premise that government agents set out, knowingly, on a policy of lies and murder, for the sake of lies and murder.

Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 04:24 PM (nj1bB)

The largest problem with this criticism is that the claim is not that the lies and murder are *for the sake of lies and murder.*

What weft-cut loop, other posters here, and even Rush Limbaugh are now saying, is that the goal was political reforms that some people believe will save large numbers of lives (and others believe will remove an obstacle to other reforms they believe are necessary or desirable).

To claim that this claim, which is not obviously "evil for the sake of evil," is in fact a claim of "evil for the sake of evil," is a strawman argument.

And, as we all know, straw men are bad for you. Especially this close to Halloween.

I mean, seriously, just because "for the greater good" is a comic trope that was used in Hot Fuzz doesn't mean the concept has never been applied in real life.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 04:34 PM (bxiXv)

182 I gotta come down on the side of: how could you not 99.999% know that if you sold high powered weapons to murdering mexican drug cartels that they would use those weapons to murder?

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 26, 2011 04:35 PM (jiVmv)

183 >>>Fortunately for the both of us the only opinion that matters right now is Daryl Issa's... Oh wait, he said it's political too.

Yes, but an effort to find out where such guns turn up in Mexico would be "political." I've called it political (before him).

You are taking "political" to mean "the murders were planned as part of a Reichstag Fire Scenario."

That's the part I don't buy.

Now, it doesn't matter if I buy it because the facts will tell.

But all this yammering by people that we MUST accept the Reichstat Fire Scenrio without barely any evidence for such a huge (and implausible) plot is premature as hell.

Accept, as we all do, that this is BAD whatever the motive, without insisting that everyone buy into your Reichstag Fire Scenario early, when prices are still low, low, low.

Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 04:36 PM (nj1bB)

184 182, There you go with some common sense bullshit again, WTF.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at September 26, 2011 04:36 PM (ZDUD4)

185 The motive is only interesting insofar as we know they did something blatently, self-evidently stupid, and any official explanation is bound to be both hilarious and false. But mostly hilarious.

I'd love to hear an explanation for this in which everyone involved is completely innocent. Because it would be one hell of a story. I just don't think it's very likely.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 26, 2011 04:37 PM (tqwMN)

186 182, exactly. What possible reward could be worth the risk?

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:37 PM (/bVuS)

187 Signs left near the bodies declared the pair, both apparently in their 20s, were killed for posting denouncements of drug cartel activities

Man, that would be fucked up if something like that ever happened in this country.

Wouldn't it, Chad "ace" Wincklefarb?

Posted by: Eric Holder at September 26, 2011 04:37 PM (z/Mo8)

188 **I know that plays into your idea of How Things Work.

It doesn't play so well in mine.
Posted by: ace**

I hates me a conspiracy theory. So, what is the best real world explanation for this? Maybe it was a bad idea perpetrated by lazy and apathetic feds.

But, really, does believing that fnF was the work of anti-gun zealots rise to the suspension of disbelief that there were several hundred people willing to take down the towers in order to, uh, get gas.

No, not really. It's just a bunch of guns in a trunk, it's sort of believable.

Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 04:38 PM (QxSug)

189 >>>What weft-cut loop, other posters here, and even Rush Limbaugh are now saying, is that the goal was political reforms that some people believe will save large numbers of lives (and others believe will remove an obstacle to other reforms they believe are necessary or desirable).


Bullshit, that is an Action Movie Villain motivation.

Again, I know some people are persuaded by this because they didn't need to be persuaded -- they've always sort of thought the government was ready to kill and stuff to grab guns.

Just lay off. We're on the facts, we're covering them. We do not have to sign up for Prison Planet scenarios to be "good conservatives."

Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 04:38 PM (nj1bB)

190 Someone who hasn't paid attention so far might be a bit startled by this one-paragraph opening digest:

Or someone who gets their news from NBC. Has the NYTimes mention the story yet? Often the first time they mention a controversy is to announce a resignation or an indictment. They readers must be in a constant state of bafflement.

Posted by: toby928© at September 26, 2011 04:39 PM (GTbGH)

191 I can see it now. Ace standing at the fence screaming avenge me as he is cut down and the rons standing at the treeline screaming WOLVERINES!!!

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at September 26, 2011 04:39 PM (ZDUD4)

192 Earlier this month, attackers left ominous threats mentioning two websites on signs beside mutilated bodies in northern Mexico.
A woman was hogtied and disemboweled. Attackers left her topless, dangling by her feet and hands from a bridge in the border city of Nuevo Laredo. A bloodied man next to her was hanging by his hands, his right shoulder severed so deeply the bone was visible.
Signs left near the bodies declared the pair, both apparently in their 20s, were killed for posting denouncements of drug cartel activities.
Posted by: Cheri at September 26, 2011 04:31 PM (G+Wff)

*yawn* So who's on Dancing with the Stars? Oh, look! Michelles got a new belt.

Posted by: 52%ers at September 26, 2011 04:39 PM (uoloY)

193 Right she was at one of Barry's fund raisers, They said she had shoes
and a wig on that made her 8 feet tall. Dwarfed Barry they said. The
bullying she was concerned with was against gay youths...

I knew it. She is a tranny.

Posted by: Samuel Adams at September 26, 2011 04:39 PM (ulPNQ)

194 Bullshit, that is an Action Movie Villain motivation.

There have been stranger motivations, ace.

Posted by: KG at September 26, 2011 04:40 PM (LD21B)

195 Purposfully so people get murdered?

so setting guns out to find out who uses them and the only way left to track them is when a crime is committed isn't at the least extremly bereft of any common sense? These are people that are used to dealing with crime we are speaking of DOJ and ATF.

really they didn't suspect what would happen?

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:40 PM (h+qn8)

196 We're on the facts, we're covering them. We do not have to sign up for Prison Planet scenarios to be "good conservatives."
On this we agree.
Thankfully Mike and David are facts oriented kind of guys.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:41 PM (/bVuS)

197 Of course this isn't the ONE that's going to "get Obama."



But even a boulder can be worn down to nothing over the years, one drip at a time.

Exactly. Neither this or Solyndra need to be "the one". But they're both excellent examples to use against the SCoaMF and ask "what the fuck is your administration doing, you incompetent ass?" And there are certainly no more mental gymnastics required to do that for FF than there are in the Solyndra scandal.

Posted by: Waterhouse at September 26, 2011 04:41 PM (16lYZ)

198 who knows, but if those that are in charge of crime are this dumb, they all need to be fired at the least.

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:42 PM (h+qn8)

199 Accept, as we all do, that this is BAD whatever the motive, without insisting that everyone buy into your Reichstag Fire Scenario early, when prices are still low, low, low

Stipulated.

So why not ask Dick, "We know you gave thousands of guns to Mexican drug lords. Why did you do that?"

I'm sure he has a GREAT reason. And I would LOVE to hear it.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 26, 2011 04:42 PM (z/Mo8)

200 I just don't think it will, not on the basis of what we've got here.
It's too labyrinthine, too many loose ends, too 'what's the hed' for the
MSM?

You keep saying this. I'm not seeing it. Empire of Jeff @135 gave a version of this story that's arguably simpler and more damaging that Solyndra to your average nightly news viewer. After all, "if it bleeds it leads", and nobody died from Solyndra.

Posted by: Ian S. at September 26, 2011 04:42 PM (tqwMN)

201 the fact that they were also speaking of how to get dirt on grassley to stop him ?

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:42 PM (h+qn8)

202 And FWIW, Ace, I've heard Mike say of Alex Jones "even a broken clock is right twice a day".
I doubt you'll see him linking to Prison Planet.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:42 PM (/bVuS)

203 **Signs left near the bodies declared the pair, both apparently in their 20s, were killed for posting denouncements of drug cartel activities.**

This crazy ass white guilt, which apparently has morphed into uber-American guilt, is causing the regime and most-americans to not care about what's happening at the border. scary f'ing shit.

Who has read Killing Pablo?

Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 04:43 PM (QxSug)

204 I want Jake Tapper to question Carney on TV on the big question re Fast and Furious: WHY.

And don't stop till you get an answer, Tap.

WHY.


Posted by: PJ at September 26, 2011 04:43 PM (FlVA8)

205 So why not ask Dick, "We know you gave thousands of guns to Mexican drug lords. Why did you do that?"

I'm sure he has a GREAT reason. And I would LOVE to hear it.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 26, 2011 04:42 PM

So now isn't the question, who has the balls to ask that question?

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at September 26, 2011 04:43 PM (ZDUD4)

206


"But if we could just stop playing gotcha for a second, we might
realize that federal loan programs -- especially loans for innovative
energy technologies -- virtually require the government to take risks
the private sector won't take. Indeed, risk-taking is what these
programs are all about," Nocera writes.


He doesn't know it, but Nocera has just identified why Solyndra is a
very big scandal.


First put aside his lame arguments about the necessity of the
government funding stuff for the public good that the private sector
doesn't. The government wasn't supposed to be taking "risks" with the
money that Solyndra was given in the first place. This was "stimulus"
money. It was supposed to be spent on "shovel ready" jobs, according
to President Obama, then-House speaker Nancy Pelosi and just about
every left-of-center economist when they began humping passage of the
$800 billion stimulus package back in 2009.

Posted by: Charles Gasparino at September 26, 2011 04:44 PM (e8kgV)

207 Yeah, I don't think Merovign gets the fact that I would *LOVE* for this to actually be "the one" that gets Obama. I just don't think it will, not on the basis of what we've got here. It's too labyrinthine, too many loose ends, too 'what's the hed' for the MSM? Whereas Solyndra is easy to sell: Obama playing favorites for political reasons, with the taxpayer on the hook, PLUS the great "jobs" and "green jobs" hooks to hang it on for particular 2011 relevance.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 26, 2011 04:33 PM (D9z3D)

I'm kind of boggled at the sheer beltway/insider/ball-game attitude we're dealing with.

I care about this because it is horrifyingly wrong. I want the people involved prosecuted to stop it, to try to prevent it from happening again, and to put the fear of the law into lawless bureaucrats that make people suffer needlessly.

As much as I want the economic wrecking ball Obama out of the way, along with his cadre of fellow wrecking balls, whether or not I'm outraged about Gunwalker has nothing to do with whether or not it's "the one" or any BS like that.

If it helps the long game, fine, great - but it needs to be covered and those responsible need to be punished because *they do*, not because of the long game.

And because if it isn't, it (or something like it) will happen again, and again, and again, because there's always some idiot who thinks their plans are more important than human lives, and it will work *this time* for sure, and if they have no fear of punishment they will just keep trying.

I would think that concept should be familiar to most people by this point.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 04:44 PM (bxiXv)

208 It's too labyrinthine, too many loose ends, too 'what's the hed' for the MSM?



"Administration sells guns to Mexican cartels" is labyrinthine?



Let them explain the fucking reason.

Posted by: Waterhouse at September 26, 2011 04:44 PM (16lYZ)

209 Empire said ;;;;So why not ask Dick, "We know you gave thousands of guns to Mexican drug lords. Why did you do that?"

exactly!

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:44 PM (h+qn8)

210 Exactly. Neither this or Solyndra need to be "the one". But they're both excellent examples to use against the SCoaMF and ask "what the fuck is your administration doing, you incompetent ass?" And there are certainly no more mental gymnastics required to do that for FF than there are in the Solyndra scandal.
Posted by: Waterhouse at September 26, 2011 04:41 PM (16lYZ)
It could be the one if Perry would start hammering it and not stop. The Obama Administration arming drug cartels just accross the border from his state? Fuck, even I could write a stem winder speech for that shit.
Let Bachman and Romeny worry about Tardisil and Social Security and talk about what people care about. Which isn't Romney or Bachman.

Posted by: robtr at September 26, 2011 04:44 PM (MtwBb)

211 144
I don't care if this "gets Obama", I'd like to know whose idea it was to sell GIVE guns to murderers AT US TAXPAYER EXPENSE and why.


Posted by: Dr Spank at September 26, 2011 04:19 PM (Sh42X)
--------
Fixed it for emphasis.

Posted by: grognard at September 26, 2011 04:45 PM (NS2Mo)

212 204, well we've gotten one "why": to sting the straw buyers supplying thecartels and, oops, we screwed up.
Today's bombshell puts holes all in that, so, next?

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:45 PM (/bVuS)

213 I don't understand where there's a crime here, ace

Posted by: proud dum-dum at September 26, 2011 04:46 PM (Y+DPZ)

214 "" Whether someone has mentioned this or not, but
the SCOAMF did say there were behind-the-scenes things going on that
would help the gun control lobby.""



I would say that firmly plants the obama regime in the "domestic enemies of the constitution" column.

Posted by: Berserker at September 26, 2011 04:46 PM (FMbng)

215 **I'm kind of boggled at the sheer beltway/insider/ball-game attitude we're dealing with. **

Yeah, the GOP leadership seems, as pointed out by Rush today, to simply want their turn at the trough. They're opposed to the tea party's call for change.

As a concerned conservative, I'd seriously like to do something about how fucked up DC is.

Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 04:47 PM (QxSug)

216 So, there've been about 200 KIA's from FnF. How many drug lords have been taken down?

That's a good follow up question to *Why?*

Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 04:47 PM (QxSug)

217 This wasn't a law enforcement operation, it was something else. No cop would think this was a good idea, especially one in a border state.

Posted by: Dr Spank at September 26, 2011 04:47 PM (Sh42X)

218 Oh, at I let this thread get too long without pointing out that Senator Patrick Leahy is Holder's punkass flunky boy.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 04:48 PM (/bVuS)

219 So the gun shops sold to legitimate customers as the ATF is, then the ATF sells to drug cartels, all in order to prove that gun shops are responsible for drug murders and we need gun control?

God save us from "geniuses"

Posted by: kbdabear at September 26, 2011 04:48 PM (Y+DPZ)

220 A woman was hogtied and disemboweled. Attackers left her topless,
dangling by her feet and hands from a bridge in the border city of
Nuevo Laredo. A bloodied man next to her was hanging by his hands, his
right shoulder severed so deeply the bone was visible.

That's another incentive for Mexican nationals to sneak into this country, or move here legally. A lot of them now are just trying to get away from that shit.


Posted by: stace, teahadi extremist bitch at September 26, 2011 04:48 PM (lYlx9)

221 Also, I haven't read a single commenter saying that one must believe that this was all a scheme to undermine the 2nd Amendment, as if it was a requirement of sorts. Enough with the straw men.

Posted by: KG at September 26, 2011 04:48 PM (LD21B)

222 I'm sure he has a GREAT reason. And I would LOVE to hear it.

Seconded. If it's not a "Reichstag Fire" scenario, then what in all Creation is the motive? Glib photoshops aside, this ain't the Joker. (Or if it is, we're even more screwed than we thought.) Whoever is responsible for this thought it was a good idea for some reason. The $64,000 question is, what was that reason?

Posted by: DarkLord© sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada!
at September 26, 2011 04:48 PM (GBXon)

223 Who has read Killing Pablo?
Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 04:43 PM (QxSug)
I didn'tread it but I saw the HBO special.

Posted by: ErikW at September 26, 2011 04:48 PM (Se8cc)

224 Bullshit, that is an Action Movie Villain motivation. I'd love to live in Ace's world, which apparently is charmingly bereft of communists willing to see people starve to death by the millions to advance political goals they thought would benefit the rest of man.

Posted by: Randy M at September 26, 2011 04:49 PM (vI8R6)

225 Nothing to see here, just move on

Posted by: proud dum-dum's furnished talking points at September 26, 2011 04:49 PM (Y+DPZ)

226 I'm kind of boggled at the sheer beltway/insider/ball-game attitude we're dealing with.
To paraphrase someone's comment previously, it is unfortunate that many folks on both sides of the aisle find the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership in general "distasteful". It's too barbaric, too "flyover country" for their tastes. Kind of like abortion - they just wish it would go away, in terms of political focus.

Posted by: Soap MacTavish at September 26, 2011 04:50 PM (vbh31)

227 I'd love to hear an explanation for this in which everyone involved is
completely innocent. Because it would be one hell of a story. I just
don't think it's very likely.

I can't imagine that such a scenario could exist.

As to motivations, look at the history of Operation Gunrunner, which set the stage for FF. Under the Bush administration, Gunrunner did result in hundreds of arrests.

I suspect that they tried to expand upon Gunrunner with FF, but did so incompetently which ended up in a giant clusterfuck and attempts at ass-covering.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 26, 2011 04:50 PM (SY2Kh)

228 Damn right. Now excuse me while I go to the sacrifice and cut out someone's beating heart. Or maybe eat a baby.


Posted by: Peaceful, Idyllic Aztec Guy at September 26, 2011 04:24


Just don't be late to the festivities later, its virgin night

Posted by: yax k'uk'mo' at September 26, 2011 04:51 PM (FMbng)

229 **Who has read Killing Pablo?
Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 04:43 PM (QxSug)

I didn't read it but I saw the HBO special.**

wow, there was one? Did they cover how brutal the columbians were, "dear judge, I can't be held responsible if a semitrailer full of dynomite accidently explodes in your neighborhood"

You can't fight fire with paper.

Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 04:52 PM (QxSug)

230 You are taking "political" to mean "the murders were planned as part of a Reichstag Fire Scenario."
I don't think anyone believing this is political is even considering it to be a "Reichstag fire". What some of us believe is that this regime invested itself in what they probably thought was a small "sure thing" to affect domestic thinkingtoward an effort to, at least, sharply curtail the legalsale of weapons in the US. I don't think that's a big leap.

Posted by: 52%ers at September 26, 2011 04:52 PM (uoloY)

231 another thing i'd like to know .

when they realized guns sold to cartels were being used to kill. did they stop selling them?

i mean if they are this stupid and all.

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:53 PM (h+qn8)

232 Screw alternative motives. "Why?" is the correct question right now. They knew people would die, they didn't care.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 26, 2011 04:53 PM (jiVmv)

233 Sock fail @ 230

Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at September 26, 2011 04:54 PM (uoloY)

234 hollowpoint, they didn't follow through on folling the guns to destinations.

why?

see those are all real questions?
who was fired for not following them?

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:54 PM (h+qn8)

235 So why not ask Dick, "We know you gave thousands of guns to Mexican drug lords. Why did you do that?"



I'm sure he has a GREAT reason. And I would LOVE to hear it.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 26, 2011 04:42 PM (z/Mo


So, why won't they at least start with Art Jay Carney?

Ask some damn pertinent questions, media.

Posted by: © Sponge at September 26, 2011 04:54 PM (UK9cE)

236 Just lay off. We're on the facts, we're covering them. We do not have to sign up for Prison Planet scenarios to be "good conservatives."

Posted by: ace at September 26, 2011 04:38 PM (nj1bB)

So Rush Limbaugh, Darrel Issa, Mike Vandebourgh and David Codrea are now all "Prison planet" nutjobs, along with, I assume, my own good self.

Talk about taking your strawmen to 11. Maybe you should turn down the outrage.

Besides, how ironic is it to discount the possibility of a scenario by comparing it to an actual event, the "Reichstag Fire?"

PS Not only do I not claim that other people have to accept any given hypothetical motive, I don't even make any claim stronger than that the "false flag" motive is the most plausible of several ideas, and probably not the only one in play.

We don't know the motive in actuality because the parties involved are hiding and/or lying about it.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 04:55 PM (bxiXv)

237 so maybe we get them on the cover up is this how it's done?

srsly i don't know.

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:56 PM (h+qn8)

238 "All we have to do isget one or more Republican candidates at the next debate to say, on national TV, "Mr. President, your Dept of Justice gave thousands of weapons to the Mexican drug cartels, which they used in over 200 murders, including that of U.S. Border Agent Brian Terry."... and then say:
"WHY DID YOUR DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DO THAT?"
and
"Who's idea was this?"
Get these words televised, repeated on the radio, on as many conservative, Republican, Independent, and other blogs. These words are the 21st Century's version of "What did you know and when did you know it?".
This is the goal. Everything else can wait.
Figuring things out can come after these words hit the air. "Political reform(s)" was/were likely the goal, but the details can wait.
Push Solyndra too. It's a lot of extra load on a weak, inept, corrupt and already heavily-loaded system. Rats are already looking for exits. More importantly, a lot of loyal people are starting to realized that they were played ... and they need to start talking. Give them the reason(s) and opportunity.
Conserve your energy, collect information, facts, links and allies.
Yeah man. Torpedo los.

Posted by: Arbalest at September 26, 2011 04:57 PM (zOyi0)

239 when they realized guns sold to cartels were being used to kill. did they stop selling them?i mean if they are this stupid and all.
Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 04:53 PM (h+qn
Right? If the goal of a reasonable one in keeping with their purpose, surely even the most incompetent, stupid group at some point is going to realize this is madness and try to undo it. Let's see some evidence of that, rather than a cover up or attept to use it as justification for new gun laws.

Posted by: Randy M at September 26, 2011 04:57 PM (vI8R6)

240
I don't understand where there's a crime here, ace

Posted by: proud dum-dum at September 26, 2011 04:46 PM (Y+DPZ)


200+ posts to get to the "Prodonkey" defense. Nice.

Posted by: © Sponge at September 26, 2011 04:58 PM (UK9cE)

241 wow, there was one? Did they cover how brutal the columbians were, "dear judge, I can't be held responsible if a semitrailer full of dynomite accidently explodes in your neighborhood" You can't fight fire with paper.
Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 04:52 PM (QxSug)
Yeah, it was narrated by the author with the appropriate re-enactments (which were really well done).
I don't remember that particular incident but the take down of Escobar at the end was pretty interesting and ended just like it should have. If you can find it, I recommend it.

Posted by: ErikW at September 26, 2011 04:59 PM (Se8cc)

242 Yes, but an effort to find out where such guns turn up in Mexico would be "political." I've called it political (before him).



You are taking "political" to mean "the murders were planned as part of a Reichstag Fire Scenario."
Posted by: ace

Nope. And I don't think Merovign does either. I only mean what I wrote. It's political. Period. I and some of us here do not think the DOJ or the Admin was trying to kill people. They just didn't care.

This story, if true, puts a nail to the idea that it was a botched operation to track weapons.

Ace, skepticism is a good thing. Relying on evidence and facts, also good.
Neither of these require one to ignore the only conclusion that makes sense.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at September 26, 2011 04:59 PM (s1vtf)

243 btw, I've never read prison planet, but i was raised in arizona and who feels safe in any border town at this point?

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 05:00 PM (h+qn8)

244 The only way to get all of those involved is a reverse to The Long March through the institutions in the way that Joe McCarthy envisioned, but handled in a more professional and comprehensive way.

There are still a lot of people out there that would swear that the MFM behind Murrow saved America from the Tailgunner, when like most things the commie media puts out there, the polar opposite is true.

Just look at PJ media's series on the radical Leftists Holder has installed at DOJ. Good luck prying them outta there.

We need a bloodless purge that would shame Joe Stalin for its efficiency.
Don't count on the current establishment RINO infected GOP for anything remotely like this.

Posted by: ontherocks at September 26, 2011 05:01 PM (HBqDo)

245 now wait, i thought that the gun shop owners were supplying the cartels with guns... thats what I was told by Obama officials.... turns out... it was the feds all along...

Posted by: sliderblaze at September 26, 2011 05:03 PM (1d0tk)

246 This administration has created hundreds of shovel-ready projects. Sadly they only employ gravediggers.

Posted by: right at September 26, 2011 05:03 PM (RzLbD)

247 It's obviously not at all remotely plausible that Fast and
Furious was a Trojan horse for something other than a law enforcement
operation, much like Obamacare is not at all even potentially a Trojan horse for a single payer govt run health care system.

The SCoaMF and his ilk would never try to nudge people to a desired outcome, knowing full well they cannot accomplish their liberal fantasies by direct methods.

And, even if Obamacare did have universal single payer ulterior motive, it's not as dangerous as letting lots and lots of weapons walk into the possession of ruthless criminal enterprises. I mean, at least no lives would be affected and no one would be hurt or killed by implementing such a plan... oh, wait...

Posted by: things that make you go hmmm at September 26, 2011 05:05 PM (TSJb0)

248 239, as I understand the timeline they didn't stop walking the guns until after confrimation that they showed up at Brian Terry's murder.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 05:05 PM (/bVuS)

249 We're not talking about a crowded dark room of bureaucrats crowded around a big-screen TV showing snuff films and snacking on the entrails of the dead, it's never like that.

It's a dozen or a hundred brightly-lit offices of bureaucrats who fancy themselves superior intellectuals weighing the costs and benefits of human lives as a purely academic exercise, and then promulgating their plans and policies based on that.

I don't even think Stalin or Mao ate entrails, though Saddam was reputed to have watched a lot of snuff films.

Most of the people involved in most of the mass murder in history were "doing their job, for the greater good." Some of them were scared not to, some of them turned it into a huge abstraction to absolve themselves.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 05:06 PM (bxiXv)

250 Tip 'o the hat to McTavish.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 05:06 PM (/bVuS)

251 I thought they wanted the guns to kill? That's how you get to say that guns from the US get into Mexican hands and kill. That's how you get gun control and that's how you disarm the american population.
Otherwise what's the point?

Posted by: dagny at September 26, 2011 05:08 PM (tt8y/)

252 249, that reminds me. I need to read "Philip Dru: Administrator" before year end.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 05:09 PM (/bVuS)

253 dagny, i guess the motivation was seeing how many showed up at mexicans ranchers gun collections?

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 05:09 PM (h+qn8)

254 Not hard to imagine that at some point, some Obama admin official uttered the words "Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs."

Do I enjoy being this conspiratorial? No, no I do not. Knowing all that I know now about this administration, would I put it past them to wag the dog? No I wouldn't. How do we survive this level of corruption? At times it is almost too overwhelming to contemplate.

Posted by: ...And noodles at September 26, 2011 05:12 PM (bMlVI)

255 253. Right. Anything else doesn't further the meme. That's why the libs jumped on the idea that govt "planted" aids because they themselves are comfortable with the idea that if you want to stop a behavior you can kill people to sway public opinion.

Posted by: dagny at September 26, 2011 05:12 PM (tt8y/)

256 The left here didn't have much problem with lots 'o Vietnamese dying to further world wide communism.Or contras. Or Iraqis.
Or babies.....oh, nevermind.

Posted by: dagny at September 26, 2011 05:16 PM (tt8y/)

257
hollowpoint, they didn't follow through on folling the guns to destinations.why?

You're asking why the Obama administration handled something in an incompetent manner?

The question kinda answers itself, no?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 26, 2011 05:16 PM (SY2Kh)

258 Why did the Feds deliver them?

I mean, why not just allow the purchases and then track them? Why take the extraordinary steps to MAKE SURE the guns got into the cartel's bloody hands?


Posted by: grognard at September 26, 2011 05:17 PM (NS2Mo)

259 254 Not hard to imagine that at some point, some Obama admin official uttered the words "Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs."

Posted by: ...And noodles at September 26, 2011 05:12 PM (bMlVI)

Actually agents have already testified that this happened, literally. The testimony I read described the speaker as "a supervisor" but didn't give the name, someone may have the name of the person, however.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 05:22 PM (bxiXv)

260 hollowpoint, they didn't follow through on folling the guns to destinations.why?

You're asking why the Obama administration handled something in an incompetent manner?The question kinda answers itself, no?

That's not just administration incompetence. That requires someone in lower echelons going along with it without a problem. One person didn't play along and that's why we know.

In a sane world, pink slips would be issued by the hundreds for this, even while the higher-ups roasted before Congress or resigned in disgrace.

Posted by: DarkLord© sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada!
at September 26, 2011 05:24 PM (GBXon)

261 Can the Administration/ATF/FBI point to just one success in the original goal(s) of this operation that they would be willing to admit to publicly?

Posted by: ontherocks at September 26, 2011 05:24 PM (HBqDo)

262 So, who did they expect to arrest in this operation?

Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 05:25 PM (QxSug)

263
Dodson feels that ATF was partly to blame for the escalating violence
in Mexico and on the border. "I even asked them if they could see the
correlation between the two," he said. "The more our guys buy, the more
violence we're having down there."
Senior agents including Dodson told CBS News they confronted their supervisors over and over.
Their answer, according to Dodson, was, "If you're going to make an omelette, you've got to break some eggs
cbs news 3/3 2011

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 05:25 PM (h+qn8)

264 Don't forget that ATF has doubled-down on this and went forward with adding a special sale reporting requirement for FFL holders in border states AFTER all this broke.

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 05:28 PM (/bVuS)

265 Their answer, according to Dodson, was, "If you're going to make an omelette, you've got to break some eggscbs news 3/3 2011So what's the omelette? What goal can they point to that the plan would have had any hope of accomplishing?

Posted by: Randy M at September 26, 2011 05:28 PM (vI8R6)

266 Randy, good question. we should ask them/

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 05:32 PM (h+qn8)

267 Thank you, willow. I was too lazy to look it up.

And Randy, that is the $64,000,000 question.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Capsaicin at September 26, 2011 05:33 PM (bxiXv)

268 See, I can buy evil because the stupid required for this would make Homer Simpson look bright.
"We're going to track the guns back to the cartels."
"What guns?"
"The ones we gave away, without any sort of way to track. D'oh! Oh well, let's try again!"
It's not like there weren't people like Dodson weren't there to point out the flaws in the plan.
By the way, is there a timeline for all this somewhere?

Posted by: Randy M at September 26, 2011 05:36 PM (vI8R6)

269 Meanwhile, I am amused because the lefty cant is that arms dealers are evil...you know Lord of War and other things like that that have been released within past few years. Projection.

Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 05:37 PM (QxSug)

270 By the way, is there a timeline for all this somewhere?
Why, yes. Yes there is: http://tinyurl.com/4ohk8vx

Posted by: Scott J at September 26, 2011 05:40 PM (/bVuS)

271 The reason for the disbelief of Ace and others here is because they are uninformed.

Anyone who has closely followed 2nd Amendment Rights issues on a national level over the last few decades can clearly see what ATF/DOJ intended to do here. It wasn't a huge leap, but just the next logical small step.

2nd Amendment folks have watched their Rights being taken away and eroded for quite some time now. Only recently have a few victories been won; The death of the Assault Weapons Ban and the DC and Chicago Supreme Court decisions.

Yet these pale in comparison to the Government and media pressure to take all firearms from the Citizens.

It isn't hard to see why they want to do this.

Posted by: TXMarko at September 26, 2011 06:00 PM (Pl1yK)

272 Their answer, according to Dodson, was, "If you're going to make an omelette, you've got to break some eggscbs news 3/3 2011

Posted by: willow at September 26, 2011 05:25 PM (h+qn


Is there an emoticon for a dejected half-laugh and a sigh? Thanks for the quote though.

Posted by: ...And noodles at September 26, 2011 06:09 PM (bMlVI)

273 An oldie but goodie, the department of alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not an agency. Shut it down, fire everyone.

Posted by: joeindc44 at September 26, 2011 06:27 PM (QxSug)

274 It isn't hard to see why they want to do this.


Posted by: TXMarko at September 26, 2011 06:00 PM (Pl1yK)
Oh come on. Hatred+Government+Disarmed Civilians=Genocide.We don't have any hatred/divisiveness being sown by the man in the highest office in the land.Nor have those same people tried to implement gun control since, forever.And it's never, ever resulted in 120 million killed by their own governments in the 20th century.
Oh, wait....Eeeeek!

Posted by: Derak at September 26, 2011 06:46 PM (8tAhu)

275 Posted by: Derak at September 26, 2011 06:46 PM (8tAhu)

Genocide is not necessarily the desired endgame of despotic regimes, but it certainly is a common historical feature.

Hell, Bill Ayers is publicly on board with "re-education" of those who disagree.

One question I would ask Ace, and any other folks who dismiss the possibility of evil thinkers/doers in today's Government:

"What societal/evolutionary/intellectual changes has humankind undergone since say, 1945, that would lead you to believe that Central Control/Genocide could not possibly happen again?"

Posted by: TXMarko at September 26, 2011 07:07 PM (sex6g)

276 who's got a list of the "republicans" who confirmed Holder? It's TeaTime for primary season I think

Posted by: Boulder Toilet Hobo at September 26, 2011 07:08 PM (g5JeX)

277 Yep! I was agreed, I'll keep in touch to your blog.

Posted by: The Dog Who Knew Too Much AudioBook at September 26, 2011 08:28 PM (YrF3W)

278 Well, it's not up at Drudge anymore.
Wonder how long it lasted.

When you say "major" headline, does that mean it was the big headline on top?

Now, it's not on the page at all.

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at September 27, 2011 12:22 AM (2AfqM)

279 @59:

"I wish I would have started a list of all of the cf's this marxist has done from the very beginning. It would be a huge list."
I
started such a list in the first months of this administration when it
became obvious that there were going to be too many scandals to
remember. Quickly became overwhelmed and gave it up in disgust.

Lucky for us, there are at least two sites that do precisely that: document the daily outrages committed by Obama.

Nachumlist, http://www.nachumlist.com, is a national treasure. This guy archives everything. Very comprehensive. Search by date or by topic.

ExposeObama, http://www.exposeobama.com, is also very good though not as exhaustive as Nachumlist.

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at September 27, 2011 01:02 AM (2AfqM)

280 buy windows 7 cd key buy wedding dress CD Keys ARMA 2 CD Key Call of Duty CD Key Company of Heroes CD Key Command Conquer CD Key Dawn of War 2 CD Key Dead Space CD Key Fallout 3 CD Key Mass Effect 2 CD Key Silent Hunter 5 CD Key The Sims 3 CD Key GTA 4 CD Key NFS CD Key Titan Quest CD Key RUSE CD Key F1 2010 CD Key Two Worlds 2 CD Key Star Trek Online CD Key Spore CD Key Far Cry 3 CD Key Dungeons CD Key Dragon Age CD Key Divinity 2 CD Key Dead Space 2 CD Key Crysis 2 CD Key Cities XL 2011 CD Key HomeFront CD Key Shogun 2 Total War CD Key Fable 3 CD Key PES 2011 CD Key Duke Nukem Forever CD Key Dungeon Siege 3 CD Key FEAR 3 CD Key NBA 2K11 CD Key RIFT CD Key Red Faction: Armageddon CD Key Dead Island CD Key Driver San Francisco CD Key Deus Ex: Human Revolution CD Key F1 2011 CD Key From Dust CD Key Red Orchestra 2 CD Key Tropico 4 CD Key Might Magic Heroes 6 CD Key MineCraft CD Key Rage CD Key DCS A-10C Warthog CD Key

Posted by: w1ert2ya349f at September 27, 2011 01:21 AM (xAJyK)

281 ontherocks@244:
The only way to get all of those involved is a reverse to The Long March
through the institutions in the way that Joe McCarthy envisioned, but
handled in a more professional and comprehensive way... We need a bloodless purge that would shame Joe Stalin for its efficiency.Don't count on the current establishment RINO infected GOP for anything remotely like this.

I think you're saying that what we have now is a permanent political class, and what we need is sudden and relentless reform.
Somebody's been talking about that recently -- someone who actually did shake up the establishment in their own state, and executed sudden and relentless reform.
http://tinyurl.com/3p5hdeu

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at September 27, 2011 02:23 AM (2AfqM)

282 @254: Not hard to imagine that at some point, some Obama admin official
uttered the words "Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs."

Actually, someone did.
http://tinyurl.com/4x6g7gd

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at September 27, 2011 03:09 AM (2AfqM)

283 By the way, is there a timeline for all this somewhere?

David Codrea, Gun Rights Examiner, is one of the top two or three people on top of breaking news on this issue; he's got all the stories chronologically:
http://tinyurl.com/3gdferj
(This link is to "A Journalist's Guide to Gunwalker: Part Six" and contains links to all the previous parts)

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at September 27, 2011 03:34 AM (2AfqM)

284 38
I wish I would have started a list of all of the cf's this marxist has done from the very beginning. It would be a huge list.


Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 26, 2011 03:48 PM (jiVmv)
nachumlist.com

Posted by: ExExZonie at September 27, 2011 06:13 PM (JMTxV)

285 Great post as always appreciate the good read thanks. who's got a list of the "republicans" who confirmed Holder? It's TeaTime for primary season I think
LED Display LED Screen magazine printing flyer printing welding machine fitness equipment Stepper treadmill

Posted by: anna lucia at September 28, 2011 03:48 AM (UKc+n)






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