It Begins: WND Challenging Marco Rubio's Eligibility to Be President

His parents were in the US as legal residents, and he was born here, but the Birthers are claiming that the bullshit they made up with respect to Barack Obama -- that natural born citizen means, of course, born of two American citizen parents -- should also apply with equal stupidity to Marco Rubio, lest their stupidities be exposed as inconsistently applied.

This supposedly is some people's claim about what the "Constitution" (I use the quotes deliberately) means, right?

And they say "Obviously, it must mean born of two citizen parents," right? (Actually, in the strong form, the Birthers even claim "natural born citizen" means "born of two parents who are each themselves also natural born citizens").

I have a question for these "Constitutional" scholars.

Most of the time they say they plain text of the "Constitution" should carry.

Okay.

Um, from where in the Consitution do you get that idea that "natural born citizen" is really supposed to mean "second generation citizen" or "natural born citizen in turn born of two natural born citizens"?

If they meant to say "second generation American citizen," why did they not use those words? Now I do not know if the idiomatic "second generation" existed as a phrase in the 1780s, but there are many different ways to communicate that idea.

Instead they used three words -- "Natural born citizen," which seems to imply a citizen whose citizenship is by birth and not by legal operation or the naturalization But I'm reliably informed that when they used these words they really meant "second generation citizen" or "born of two natural born citizen parents," and yet apparently didn't feel like writing in plain English and so made a muddle of things.

Is that about right?

Some national news media are declaring that U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio is a natural-born citizen and thus eligible for the presidency or vice presidency, even though Rubio's constitutional eligibility remains unclear and the popular Florida Republican has himself downplayed any interest in running on a White House ticket.

In a Daily Caller piece today titled "Coming soon: Rubio 'birthers,'" journalist Matt Lewis warns, "There is already a movement afoot (led by some on the fringe) to disqualify him from serving as president (which would presumably disqualify him from serving as vice president). That's right – some are arguing that Rubio is not eligible because he is not a 'natural-born citizen.'"

Lewis explains the logic by citing a May 22 WND report examining the issue, which noted, "While the Constitution does not define 'natural-born citizen,' there is strong evidence that the Founding Fathers understood it to mean someone born of two American citizens."

"Born of two American citizens" is easily enough to write out. It's pithy. Unambiguous.

And yet they didn't write that.

Oh well, maybe they were just fucking dummies or something.

Clarifying Quotation:

Few bloggers have been bigger pussies on the issue than you Ace. What did 'natural born citizen' mean to the framers, tough guy? You sound like Pelosi when she was questioned on the constitutionality of Obamacare.

What the Rubio pushers like you have in common with the Chris Matthews set is worship of the brown/black because you are not a believing Christian. You replaced one religion with another.

Posted by: ccruse456

I'm very comfortable being in opposition to you, ccruse.

I would think less of myself if I found myself to be on your side.


Posted by: Ace at 03:43 PM



Comments

1 I am pretty sure he isn't running for President.

Posted by: free tibet AND whirled peas at August 25, 2011 03:45 PM (JGA/v)

2 sounds about right

Posted by: trailortrash at August 25, 2011 03:45 PM (xllDV)

3 Rubio is an American citizen born in Miami. End of fucking topic.

Oh and Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: mpfs, TPT at August 25, 2011 03:46 PM (iYbLN)

4 I'm pretty sure the answer is from something Jefferson said.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at August 25, 2011 03:46 PM (OWjjx)

5 Dumb move. Rubio is on solid ground if he were to ever consider the idea. in the future.

Posted by: EC at August 25, 2011 03:46 PM (GQ8sn)

6 Donald Trump unavailable for comment.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at August 25, 2011 03:48 PM (AZGON)

7 We need Rubio in the senate, we can't afford to lose senator now.

Posted by: KG at August 25, 2011 03:48 PM (LD21B)

8 My mother was a jackal. Does that mean I can't be President?

Posted by: nevergiveup at August 25, 2011 03:48 PM (i6RpT)

9 Fun Fact: The Marquis de Lafayette and all his descendants are considered native-born American citizens.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at August 25, 2011 03:48 PM (FkKjr)

10 Never can start too early demonizing wingnuts.

Posted by: MBM at August 25, 2011 03:49 PM (NuPNl)

11 Attention equals popularity. No one questions are raised about the UFO that landed behind the hospital and deliver that little bologna loaf - Ron Paul.

Posted by: The Robot Devil at August 25, 2011 03:49 PM (+hB3s)

12 Well, if Commander Clusterfuck is eligible to be President, then I have NO IDEA why they're even bringing this up.

Posted by: © Sponge at August 25, 2011 03:49 PM (UK9cE)

13 @7 lose a senator

Posted by: KG at August 25, 2011 03:49 PM (LD21B)

14 there is strong evidence that the Founding Fathers understood it to mean someone born of two American citizens
Let's see--current law, passed by the Congress and signed by the President says that Rubio is an American citizen AT BIRTH.
In my book that's pretty effing constitutional.
Next.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 03:49 PM (B+qrE)

15 O.K., so we can start deporting all those anchor babies now?
I would be willing to forego Rubio if the Left agrees to that (fat chance).

Posted by: West at August 25, 2011 03:49 PM (1Rgee)

16

oooh, this post could draw out some really fun commenters I think


Posted by: dan-O at August 25, 2011 03:50 PM (BAjNF)

17 claiming that the bullshit they made up with respect to Barack Obama --
that natural born citizen means, of course, born of two American
citizen parents

Yes ... made up by Chester Arthur, who was worried enough about Birthers with silly notions of "natural born citizen" that he got rid of as much of his documentation as possible (as his father was not an American citizen at Arthur's birth).

But then, you folks are the ones who think the Founders would be cool having a President who holds citizenship in 132 other nations at the same time. Yep ... Those Founders would find that kind of cute, I'm sure.

(Actually, in the strong form, the Birthers even claim "natural born
citizen" means "born of two parents who are each themselves also natural
born citizens").

Bullshit. I've never seen anyone claim that. I'm sure that a few people have said it, but that notion has NEVER been part of this debate. Mostly, it was made up by people like you misinterpreting what others were telling them. You did it a few times, at least, in the eligibility threads, here. Straw. On. Fire.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 03:50 PM (F5tJy)

18 Mrs. Reagan you're going to fell soooo assisted!

Posted by: Marco Rubio at August 25, 2011 03:50 PM (14jKX)

19 Ace. Cut 'em some slack. They've probably worked months on this and this is the best they can come up with. They're probably already devastated by their own inadequacies. No need to pile on.

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at August 25, 2011 03:50 PM (jx2j9)

20 WND is full of stuttering clusterfucks of miserable failure.

Posted by: The Constitution at August 25, 2011 03:50 PM (Zs83Q)

21 My mother was a jackal. Does that mean I can't be President?

Posted by: nevergiveup at August 25, 2011 03:48 PM (i6RpT)


Was she an American jackal?



Posted by: © Sponge at August 25, 2011 03:50 PM (UK9cE)

22 Sigh. WND. So much embarrassing crazy over there.

Posted by: The Ewok keepers at August 25, 2011 03:51 PM (RD7QR)

23 All you have to do to verify if he was born I'm the United States is ask him who is Ricky Ricardo.

Posted by: YIKES! at August 25, 2011 03:51 PM (S47ne)

24 Is there a Stupidity Vaccine?


Posted by: mpfs, TPT at August 25, 2011 03:51 PM (iYbLN)

25 My mother was a jackal. Does that mean I can't be President?
Posted by: nevergiveup at August 25, 2011 03:48 PM (i6RpT)
Poser.

Posted by: Damian Thorn at August 25, 2011 03:51 PM (B+qrE)

26 "born of two parents who are each themselves also natural born citizens").

The total lack of logic in that statement is blinding. Following that logic nobody could ever be a natural born citizen.



Normal
0


I have posted this
link before but it bears repeating every time the birthers go on a rampage

Posted by: Vic at August 25, 2011 03:52 PM (M9Ie6)

27 >>> The Marquis de Lafayette and all his descendants are considered native-born American citizens.

This is very interesting to me. I am not challenging you, but I am asking for a citation, not to say "Fuck you, buddy!" but because I would like to hear more.

Now, I think I read Lafayette was granted honorary citizenship but I never heard he was given "natural born citizenship" and I don't know that would even be constitutional. And his heirs?!

I guess I am challenging you. But this is more about resolving an interesting factual premise than getting into a fight.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 03:52 PM (nj1bB)

28 Well, Ace, I am sure it will be of no great loss to you, but you just lost me.

Until such time as the Constitution is amended to proof we're "stupid" because we believe a natural born citizen has no allegiance through his parents to other countries, it will always remain.

Too bad we do not have a decent court system to put the matter to rest.

I shall never grace the halls of your blog, again.

Thanks for the name calling.

Posted by: elspeth at August 25, 2011 03:52 PM (0AkWH)

29 19 ...They're probably already
devastated by their own inadequacies. No need to pile on.

Kinda like a Beta moron coming home to her in his living room:
http://tinyurl.com/3b26y48

Posted by: The Robot Devil at August 25, 2011 03:52 PM (+hB3s)

30 Seriously, World Net Daily? Next thing we'll be discussing Newsmax and the Soros-Blofeld-Greys axis.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at August 25, 2011 03:53 PM (AZGON)

31 My mother was a jackal. Does that mean I can't be President?

Posted by: nevergiveup at August 25, 2011 03:48 PM (i6RpT)


As long as she wasn't a member of Jackyl, you're fine.

Posted by: © Sponge at August 25, 2011 03:53 PM (UK9cE)

32 Marco Rubio is an honorary Pirate. Most likely he was not a Natural Born Pirate, most of us are not, but if he was born on US Soil of legal residents then he lives and fights under the Stars and Stripes. Pirate know this.

Posted by: Pirate Pelf Lucre at August 25, 2011 03:53 PM (wN82N)

33 I believe this was best addressed by Thomas Jefferson:
I pray thee that thou listenth to me and refrain from opening thy mouth and revealing that thou art astuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.
CITE: Stuff Jefferson Said, 5th Edition, Revised with expanded commentary

Posted by: alexthechick at August 25, 2011 03:53 PM (VtjlW)

34 This could be cool. Rubio could release his "long form" birth certificate and keep that story alive for all the nuts out there deep into 2012.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at August 25, 2011 03:53 PM (sbV1u)

35 @24

Yes, join me weekdays from 11 to 2.

Posted by: Rush Limbaugh at August 25, 2011 03:53 PM (Xm1aB)

36 My mother was a jackal. Does that mean I can't be President?
Posted by: nevergiveup at August 25, 2011 03:48 PM (i6RpT)

Poser.

Posted by: Damian Thorn at August 25, 2011 03:51 PM (B+qrE)

Never knew you had a brother I bet? And mom liked me best.

Posted by: nevergiveup at August 25, 2011 03:54 PM (i6RpT)

37 And right on cue, here's our resident citizenship purity expert progressoverpeace who doesn't want kids names on some government list, but you better produce that birth certificate.
There is lame and then there is birther lame.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 03:54 PM (B+qrE)

38 This must be decided by top men. TOP. MEN. Where's Biden?

Posted by: 141Driver at August 25, 2011 03:54 PM (zfboV)

39 My mother was a hamster and my father smelled of elderberries.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at August 25, 2011 03:54 PM (AZGON)

40 Rep. John Bingham of Ohio, considered the father of the Fourteenth Amendment, confirms the understanding and construction the framers used in regards to birthright and jurisdiction while speaking on civil rights of citizens in the House on March 9, 1866:
find no fault with the introductory clause [S 61 Bill], which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen…[6]

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 03:54 PM (NtXW4)

41 Rubio is a racist terrorist Teabagger. Huntsman is the only way we can cross the aisle and unite our fine country.

Posted by: Jon Huntsman at August 25, 2011 03:54 PM (alG/t)

42 3 Rubio is an American citizen born in Miami. End of fucking topic.Oh and Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.
Posted by: mpfs, TPT at August 25, 2011 03:46 PM (iYbLN)
Well, put. The Pirate Communitylikes your style.

Posted by: Pirate Pelf Lucre at August 25, 2011 03:55 PM (wN82N)

43 Is there a stupidity vaccine?

Yes, but it's multiple shots to the nuts.

Posted by: dogfish at August 25, 2011 03:55 PM (LmRZN)

44 I don't get it. Are they claiming that Rubio was born in Kenya?

Posted by: Bob Saget at August 25, 2011 03:55 PM (F/4zf)

45 We're getting a little ahead of ourselves, aren't we? Anyone think Rubio is running in 12?
oh and, the idea that there is any parallel between Obarky's Constitutional elegibility and that of any other Republican is preposterous. He is sui generis

Posted by: glowing blue meat at August 25, 2011 03:55 PM (K/USr)

46 Until such time as the Constitution is amended to proof we're "stupid"
Oh, sweetie, I think you just did that all by yourself.

Posted by: alexthechick at August 25, 2011 03:55 PM (VtjlW)

47 This article reminds me of how stupid my fellow morons are.

Under any President other than Obama, this topic would merit serious consideration. But alas, there is only piss and vinegar.

Posted by: formerly known as cherry pi at August 25, 2011 03:55 PM (OhYCU)

48
I'm sure Ace had some points to make but, until he double-posts it , I can't be sure he's serious.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at August 25, 2011 03:56 PM (+JhHG)

49 Minor v. Happersett – wherein the Supreme Court stated:
The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [88 U.S. 162, 168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts.

So... it seems the SUPREME COURT had doubts as to the Natural Born status of someone born here, of non citizen parents.... but we care crazy to even ask the question???
How... interesting...

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 03:56 PM (NtXW4)

50 Stuff like this must make Soros and the other "blood in the street" leftists laugh and laugh and laugh.

Posted by: Shiggz at August 25, 2011 03:56 PM (v8Pb8)

51 I wonder what percentage of natural-born citizens with parents who were both natural-born citizens, or even naturalized citizens there were during the times of the founding fathers.

Since America wasn't even a country during the time the constitution was being written, my guess would have to be, not very many.

Those founding fathers were a crafty lot though, so they might have had some clever subterfuge in mind. Devilish bastards!

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at August 25, 2011 03:56 PM (jx2j9)

52 Thanks for the WND thread Ace.

You answered my earlier question: whose opinion do I care less about than Erik Erickson!

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at August 25, 2011 03:56 PM (OWjjx)

53
The Birthening II: Florida Boogaloo

Posted by: Dr. Varno at August 25, 2011 03:56 PM (QMtmy)

54 Why limit it to a second generation citizen?

Make it 10 generations down, get all that furner shit out of their genes before they can be president. If y'all ain't eatin' possum out of the womb, y'all ain't eligible to do no presidentin' !

Posted by: lorien1973 at August 25, 2011 03:56 PM (usXZy)

55 Does this mean Ace is going to be in Rubio's garbage again?

Posted by: Ian S. at August 25, 2011 03:56 PM (tqwMN)

56 41
Rubio is a racist terrorist Teabagger. Huntsman is the only way we can cross the aisle and unite our fine country.

Mr Huntsman, I need some more Lemon Pledge, Mr Huntsman...

Posted by: Consuela at August 25, 2011 03:57 PM (+hB3s)

57 And right on cue, here's our resident citizenship purity expert
progressoverpeace who doesn't want kids names on some government list,
but you better produce that birth certificate..

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 03:54 PM (B+qrE)

Circa, are you really comparing the privacy concerns of an individual citizen and someone who will be assuming control of the Executive branch and the military that the Constitution laid out the requirements for? Really?

I think you need a rest, man. A serious rest.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 03:57 PM (F5tJy)

58 Too bad we do not have a decent court system to put the matter to rest.I shall never grace the halls of your blog, again.Thanks for the name calling.

Posted by: elspeth at August 25, 2011 03:52 PM (0AkWH)


And another one bites the dust....


Posted by: Freddie Mercury at August 25, 2011 03:57 PM (UK9cE)

59 So that means children born in the U.S. of parents who are illegal aliens are not citizens.
Right?

Posted by: YIKES! at August 25, 2011 03:57 PM (S47ne)

60 Gee then we have be providing welfare and all the goodies here in California to anchor babies and they aren't even citizens?

For Lord's sake, they were born on American soil. Whether we like it or not they are United States citizens until Congress or the courts deem otherwise.

What is in the water today? Dryer sheets????!!!

Posted by: mpfs, TPT at August 25, 2011 03:57 PM (iYbLN)

61 We like the cut of your jib.

Posted by: People Magazine at August 25, 2011 03:57 PM (EL+OC)

62 My mother was a jackal. Does that mean I can't be President?

Never let go of your dreams.

Posted by: Romulus at August 25, 2011 03:57 PM (OK/vv)

63 That's silly because not every president knows who their father or mother was, let alone their folks citizenship.

Also, what about clones and babies concieved from donated eggs and sperm?

Posted by: Serious Cat at August 25, 2011 03:58 PM (Fhh0D)

64 62
My mother was a jackal. Does that mean I can't be President?

Never let go of your dreams.


Posted by: Romulus at August 25, 2011 03:57 PM (OK/vv)
OR the teat

Posted by: Remus at August 25, 2011 03:58 PM (+hB3s)

65 This is very interesting to me. I am not challenging you, but I am
asking for a citation, not to say "Fuck you, buddy!" but because I would
like to hear more.

Its true ace. The State of MD passed a law making him a natural born citizen of the State of MD. When the Constitution was later ratified, since he was a "natural born citizen" of MD he became a natural born citizen of the U.S.

Posted by: Vic at August 25, 2011 03:58 PM (M9Ie6)

66
Carlos the Jackal was in fact, not a jackal.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at August 25, 2011 03:59 PM (QMtmy)

67 Does Rubio wear weird underwear and have multiple wives? If not, I'm good.

Posted by: Dr Spank at August 25, 2011 03:59 PM (1fB+3)

68 I shall never grace the halls of your blog, again.Thanks for the name calling.
Here you go.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 03:59 PM (B+qrE)

69 Mmm, Marco Rubio.

Wait, wtf was this post about anyway?

Posted by: lu at August 25, 2011 04:00 PM (pLTLS)

70 7
We need Rubio in the senate, we can't afford to lose a senator now.
Romney said Rubio would be on anyone's list and Perry called him before he announced. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean either would definitely choose him, but still.

Posted by: Miss80sBaby at August 25, 2011 04:00 PM (o2lIv)

71 Carlos the Jackal was in fact, not a jackal.

Was Minnie the Moocher a moocher?

Posted by: The Robot Devil at August 25, 2011 04:00 PM (+hB3s)

72 Elspeth I bid you a fucking adieu.

Posted by: Evil Libertarian at August 25, 2011 04:00 PM (8z8uV)

73
Hold on now, I'm no constitutional scholar fer sure, but how many of our early presidents were born to parents who were not born in America?

And does the answer even matter?

My head is starting to hurt.

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 04:00 PM (Xm1aB)

74 I guess I am challenging you. But this is more about resolving an interesting factual premise than getting into a fight.
Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 03:52 PM (nj1bB)

My information comes from that most venerable source, wikipedia, in the "Honorary citizen of the United States" article:

Lafayette did not receive honorary citizenship of the United States until 2002, but did become a natural born citizen during his lifetime. On 28 December 1784, the Maryland General Assembly passed a resolution stating that Lafayette and his male heirs "forever shall be...natural born Citizens" of the state.[12] This made him a natural born citizen of the United States under the Articles of Confederation and as defined in Section 1 of Article Two of the United States Constitution.[13][14][15][2] In 1803 and 1804, President Jefferson offered to make him Governor of Louisiana,[16] and in 1932, descendant René de Chambrun established his American citizenship based on the Maryland resolution.[17][18] For the others, what rights honorary citizenship bestows, if any, is unclear; it does not grant eligibility for United States passports.[1]

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at August 25, 2011 04:00 PM (FkKjr)

75
"It begins: ..."

more like: "It Never Ends: ..."


Posted by: soothie at August 25, 2011 04:01 PM (G/zuv)

76 Make it 10 generations down,
Turtles, man. It's all turtles.

Posted by: alexthechick at August 25, 2011 04:01 PM (VtjlW)

77 Carlos the Jackal was in fact, not a jackal.

Was Minnie the Moocher a moocher?

What about Mac the Knife?

Posted by: Bannor at August 25, 2011 04:01 PM (6AXh/)

78
My father was in Jackyl. Does that mean I can't be President?

Posted by: Dr. Varno at August 25, 2011 04:02 PM (QMtmy)

79 RELEASE THE CHROMATIC ABERRATIONS!

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 04:02 PM (lbo6/)

80 >>>Its true ace. The State of MD passed a law making him a natural born citizen of the State of MD. When the Constitution was later ratified, since he was a "natural born citizen" of MD he became a natural born citizen of the U.S.

That is obvioulsy not natural born, that is by operation of law...

If that is the case it is an honor but I doubt it wold have had legal effect.

Interesting.

Romeo,

That is a good quote and I thank you for informing me.

That does help you, in the sense that it proves you're not, as I suggested, crazy.

However, that decision also says it doesn't have to resolve that question. Later laws have cleared up the ambiguity you see.



Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 04:02 PM (nj1bB)

81 All the conservative blogs pussied out on Obama's citizenship (not the Kenya BS) for fear of losing cocktail party invites. It's hard to take anyone seriously on this topic.


Posted by: formerly known as cherry pi at August 25, 2011 04:02 PM (OhYCU)

82 9 Fun Fact: The Marquis de Lafayette and all his descendants are considered native-born American citizens.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at August 25, 2011 03:48 PM (FkKjr)
An immigrant so honored? Of course, I am quite sure he was here legally, and I am postive he earned this right.

Posted by: Pirate Pelf Lucre at August 25, 2011 04:02 PM (wN82N)

83 Was Minnie the Moocher a moocher?
No but Peggy Joseph was!

Posted by: Sean Bannion at August 25, 2011 04:02 PM (sbV1u)

84 Bevel,

Wow, thanks. Interesting.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 04:03 PM (nj1bB)

85 Make it 10 generations down,

Whew!! I just made it.

Posted by: mpfs, TPT, Daughter of the American Revolution bitches. at August 25, 2011 04:03 PM (iYbLN)

86 24 Is there a Stupidity Vaccine?

Nope.
Ron White already said "You can't fix stupid".

Posted by: MrObvious at August 25, 2011 04:03 PM (2uovW)

87 Posted by: Vic at August 25, 2011 03:58 PM (M9Ie6)
But note the Natural Born clause had a Grandfather part to it... as no one could meet that bar when the country was founded...
So. Lafeyete was given citizenship before the Constitution, and was Grandfathered in with the rest...
His descendents however, would fall under current US Law... which over rides State Laws on Citizenship issues... thus if they did not meet the current requirments to be a US citizen, they would not be...

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 04:04 PM (NtXW4)

88 someone who will be assuming control of the Executive branch and the military that the Constitution laid out the requirements for
Rubio is a natural born citizen of the United States of America. From birth. Not naturalized. Therefore natural born. (P.S.: Sois Barack Obama, but I digress.)
Tell me, is it fun being deliberately dense in the face of legal clarity?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 04:04 PM (B+qrE)

89 >>>Hold on now, I'm no constitutional scholar fer sure, but how many of our early presidents were born to parents who were not born in America?

I believe the constitution actually specifies the first generation of americans -- those not born in america, as there was no amercia -- are natural born citizens for the purposes of the constitution.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 04:04 PM (nj1bB)

90 What would John Connor's status be? Kyle Reese was from the future, the US did not even exist then (err, *does* not even exist then) as it was destroyed by Skynet. Does this mean he can't be President of the US?

Posted by: blaster at August 25, 2011 04:04 PM (l5dj7)

91 Ah Circa, I love the smell of common sense.

Posted by: mpfs, TPT, Daughter of the American Revolution bitches. at August 25, 2011 04:05 PM (iYbLN)

92 RELEASE THE CHROMATIC ABERRATIONS!

If I go anywhere near WND or Newsmax I always see weird colors and then my desk starts to crawl like it's made of worms and I hear singing from the light switch and I can step out the window and fly and

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at August 25, 2011 04:05 PM (AZGON)

93 If Obama hadn't cut NASA so deep, he could have used that diamond planet as collateral for QE#3

Posted by: Jean at August 25, 2011 04:05 PM (WkuV6)

94 once you've lost elspeth...

Posted by: garrett at August 25, 2011 04:06 PM (h3VAg)

95 "And they say "Obviously, it must mean born of two citizen parents," right? (Actually, in the strong form, the Birthers even claim "natural born citizen" means "born of two parents who are each themselves also natural born citizens")."

Wouldn't that then disqualify everybody? I mean, literally everyone in the US can trace their history back to immigrants. Heck, even the Native Americans are thought to have migrated here across the Bering land bridge. This logic means that absolutely no one ever born could be a natural born citizen of the United States.

What idiocy.

Posted by: Mandy P., Teahadi from Hobbitton at August 25, 2011 04:06 PM (qFpRI)

96 If Obama hadn't cut NASA so deep, he could have used that diamond planet as collateral for QE#3

He's instead pledging his golf clubs and old suits. Soethby's knows they will fetch trillions at auctions.

Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at August 25, 2011 04:07 PM (AZGON)

97
It is all because they think that some book written by some Swiss guy aboutCivil Law derived continental European standards of the 18th century somehow constitutes binding Common Law precedent for the Constitution of the United States, depite the English Common Law being the exact opposite, and despite American Law deriving from the English Common Law.
You know, like "activist" judges, they want the decisions of some foreign courts to determinewhat American Law should be. Apparently such aprocedure is good enough to determine who qualifies to be President even though it must be rejected for everything else.

Posted by: Sam at August 25, 2011 04:08 PM (V9Tsq)

98 Wait....the SCOAMF's mother was a US citizen but was his father at the time of his birth?

Posted by: MrObvious at August 25, 2011 04:08 PM (2uovW)

99 Make it 10 generations down, get all that furner
shit out of their genes before they can be president. If y'all ain't
eatin' possum out of the womb, y'all ain't eligible to do no
presidentin' !

Posted by: lorien1973 at August 25, 2011 03:56 PM (usXZy)
You make a mockery of the utterly unique American system that the Founders worked so hard to try to preserve and cultivate through the Constitution and the requirements they placed on those who could take on the governmental positions described. To the Founders, being a natural born American (after the first generation that had to be more open) was a very important point and put in there for a very specific reason. What really gets me, though, is that after we see the consequences of going against this very simple requirement with Barky and the incredible damage (much of it irreparable) that he's done by bringing very foreign notions and considerations to our governmental culture people are still arguing that the natural born citizen requirement is somehow silly. It's utterly crazy.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 04:08 PM (F5tJy)

100 Too bad we do not have a decent court system to put the matter to rest.I shall never grace the halls of your blog, again.
That comma splice is grounds for Eternal Banning.

Posted by: kevlarchick at August 25, 2011 04:08 PM (TNuqz)

101 @89

Thanks ace, I also see someone else mentioned a "grandfather" clause that's in there.

I'll take a looksy.

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 04:08 PM (Xm1aB)

102 Did I miss somehing? Did Rubio throw his hat in? If not, this is all pissing into the wind.

Posted by: Max Entropy at August 25, 2011 04:08 PM (lH6z9)

103 O/T:Meanwhile, up on the Vineyard: (CNN) – There have been no discussions about President Barack Obama changing his vacation plans and leaving Martha's Vineyard early, according to White House Deputy Press Secretary Josh Earnest.
But White House officials are "watching the weather reports" and tracking the progress of Hurricane Irene closely, Earnest said. [I thought Barry could stop rising seas?]
Bloomberg has asked NYC folks not to swim in rip tides (no joke, it was in NYT). I have a feeling his "Katrina" moment with the blizzards last winter will be fond memories if Irene hits.
Governors declaring emergency (note NY is not one of them):
Miami (CNN) -- Four governors declared states of emergency Thursday as Hurricane Irene threatened to wreak havoc along the United States' Eastern Seaboard.
Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell, New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie and Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley declared emergencies for their states, while North Carolina Gov. Beverly Perdue declared a state of emergency in counties east of Interstate 95. The emergency declarations allow states to free funds and prepare resources that may be needed.
If Irene continues along its current track, "from a flooding perspective, this could be a hundred-year event," Christie said. He encouraged voluntary evacuations to begin immediately. "Anybody who is on a barrier island should go," he said, adding that on Friday people along the beaches should start thinking about moving to higher ground.

















Posted by: ChristyBlinky at August 25, 2011 04:08 PM (fNdyx)

104 I thought Jesus brought the Indians here?

Posted by: Mitt Romney at August 25, 2011 04:09 PM (6AXh/)

105 Historians in the future will note that on 25-Aug-2011, another front destined to be pounded into the ground in a manner similar to what happened at Verdun opened in the seemingly unending Purity Wars.

Posted by: No Whining at August 25, 2011 04:09 PM (HmCnI)

106 Hearing what WND has to say is all well and good, but I for one won't be totally convinced until we hear from Debbie Schlussel on the matter.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at August 25, 2011 04:10 PM (SY2Kh)

107 Does anyone know if Rubio was born by c-section? Because that's clearly not natural born.

Posted by: Andy at August 25, 2011 04:10 PM (5Rurq)

108 Um, from where in the Consitution do you get that idea that "natural born citizen" is really supposed to mean "second generation citizen" or "natural born citizen in turn born of two natural born citizens"?
Obviously, a "natural born citizen" is one who was not delivered via C-section.

Posted by: malclave at August 25, 2011 04:10 PM (W1Ndc)

109 WND : Stupid is as stupid does.

or maybe Stupid were and stupid are.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 04:10 PM (4nfy2)

110 I believe the constitution actually specifies the
first generation of americans -- those not born in america, as there was
no amercia -- are natural born citizens for the purposes of the
constitution.





Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 04:04 PM (nj1bB)
No, it doesn't. Not even close. It does however, allow (for the grandfathered eligible people) those who weren't even born in America (the Colonies) to be eligible, just so long as they got American citizenship before the ratification fo the Constitution.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 04:10 PM (F5tJy)

111 Can you imagine this? The best way to solve the anchor baby kerfluffle would be for Rubio to be selected as someone's VP. Only then would something like that become an interest of the left. Any other time and it would be R A C I S T!!!

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at August 25, 2011 04:10 PM (jx2j9)

112 Read "Law of Nations" and Supreme Court -Minor vs Happeresett (sp) I've read this column for years but I think it is also time to give you up. You people seem to be going the way of Charles Johnson and LGF with your lack of knowledge on Natural Born and your complete ignorance of Rick Perry and his connection to Trans Texas Corridor, SPP,open borders, Gardisil, 2007 Bilderberg attendee among other things. May check back from time to time to see if some snity and intellegence has returned.

Posted by: Vattell at August 25, 2011 04:11 PM (9UI9e)

113 ". . . while North Carolina Gov. Beverly Perdue declared a state of emergency in counties east of Interstate 95."

Tarheels better start lining up now to turn in your guns.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at August 25, 2011 04:12 PM (cbyrC)

114 I love Rubio; the idea of a Perry/Rubio or Romney/Rubio ticket makes me positively giddy. But with the razor thin margin we have in the senate at the moment, poaching a sitting senator for the VP pick could be disastrous (unless we guarantee enough R senatorial pickups.) Plus he is still green in the senate.

If I wanted to do a food metaphor and compare Rubio to a red meat filled bacon souflee, I'd say leave him in the oven a few more years to give him time to rise, till 2016, and then he will be PERFECT. But hey, I'm one of those ppl who always opens the oven early, so I get it.

Utter nonsense, is the Rubio birther crap. Better to get it out of the way now so by 2016, as the libs say, "the science is settled, end of discussion."

Posted by: LizLem at August 25, 2011 04:12 PM (lSuMX)

115 Few bloggers have been bigger pussies on the issue than you Ace. What did 'natural born citizen' mean to the framers, tough guy?You sound like Pelosi when she was questioned on the constitutionality of Obamacare.
What the Rubio pushers like you have in common with the Chris Matthews set is worship of the brown/black because you are not a believing Christian. You replaced one religion with another.

Posted by: ccruse456 at August 25, 2011 04:12 PM (yNoT1)

116 @112

Thanks for dropping by Vattell.

You fucking scrunt.

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 04:12 PM (Xm1aB)

117 Elspeth didn't even show us her titties.

Slut.

Birthers have as solid a grasp of Constitutional knowledge as Wesley Snipes.

Fortunately for you, Birtherism isn't a crime.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 04:13 PM (lbo6/)

118 Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 04:02 PM (nj1bB)
Actualy, the problem is that the later laws, and cases, have NOT cleared up the definition of 'Natural Born'... they talk of citizenship, and even NATIVE born, but right now its a muddle.
Real problem IMO is that the Foudners did not recognize dual citizenship. You were either an USian (to use the Euroterm for us) or somthing else. It was the Supreme Court which finally jumped the shark and recognized dual citizenship, even when specific Law from Congress said otherwise...
So the Constitution did not address the idea of a Dual Citizen President... because with the Natural Born clause there was no way they COULD be a Dual Citizen.
But now? with current law? You could easily have a Dual Citizen President... and Obama WAS by legal definition, a Dual Citizen at his Birth (British Commonwealthe and US)... and we do not know if he has ever specificly renounced his British Citizenship... (which under old British Law, as his father was British, left him open to being Impressed or drafted by the King, which was one of the causes for the War of 1812...).
We need to have a rational discussion... without either calling some of us Crazy... or letting the WND crazies have the podium, because there are some interesting questions which we, as a Nation, need to discuss.

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 04:13 PM (NtXW4)

119 read this column for years but I think it is also
time to give you up. You people seem to be going the way of Charles
Johnson and LGF with your lack of knowledge on Natural Born and your
complete ignorance of Rick Perry and his connection to Trans Texas
Corridor, SPP,open borders, Gardisil, 2007 Bilderberg attendee among
other things. May check back from time to time to see if some snity and
intellegence has returned.

Posted by: Vattell
Don't bother returning we already know you're an idiot.

Posted by: mpfs, TPT, Daughter of the American Revolution bitches. at August 25, 2011 04:13 PM (iYbLN)

120 I thought the WND argument was that obama WASN'T born in America and didn't qualify as a citizen because only his mother was a citizen.

Posted by: Deathknyte at August 25, 2011 04:13 PM (VwUPm)

121 Not natural born. But gutsy as hell. (They got sent back, bummer)

Posted by: Downscaled Upscale at August 25, 2011 04:13 PM (IhHdM)

122 112

May check back
from time to time to see if some snity and intellegence has returned.Posted by: Vattell at August 25, 2011 04:11 PM (9UI9e)
We got your snooty, your snotty and your snippy, but nowhere here can I find your snity ...

Posted by: No Whining at August 25, 2011 04:13 PM (HmCnI)

123 Puritania had always been at war with RiNOpia.

Posted by: garrett at August 25, 2011 04:14 PM (h3VAg)

124 109 WND : Stupid is as stupid does.or maybe Stupid were and stupid are.
SEEEE!...I told you it all depends on the definition of the word *is*!!!!

Posted by: Slick Willie at August 25, 2011 04:14 PM (2uovW)

125 Birthers have as solid a grasp of Constitutional knowledge as Wesley Snipes. Fortunately for you, Birtherism isn't a crime.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 04:13 PM (lbo6/)
Well... good thing I'm a "Dualer"... not a "Birther" then....
I want the question answered, can a Dual Citizen be President? Because I KNOW the Founders put in the Natural Born Clause to prevent the Commander in Chief from having the LEGAL problems (like TREASON) which a Dual Citizenship could cause.

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 04:15 PM (NtXW4)

126
Few bloggers have been bigger pussies on the issue than you Ace.
What did 'natural born citizen' mean to the framers, tough guy?You
sound like Pelosi when she was questioned on the constitutionality of
Obamacare.

What the Rubio pushers like you have in common with the Chris
Matthews set is worship of the brown/black because you are not a
believing Christian. You replaced one religion with another.


WTF. When Rubio was born in MIAMI, FL his mother was a naturalized citizen and his father was in process. Did Miami become part of another country the exact day and time Rubio was born.

Posted by: mpfs, TPT, Daughter of the American Revolution bitches. at August 25, 2011 04:15 PM (iYbLN)

127 I have the feeling I am going to be more happy with whoever the VP pick is than the actual candidate. Just like last time.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 04:15 PM (4nfy2)

128 Should have ?

Posted by: mpfs, TPT, Daughter of the American Revolution bitches. at August 25, 2011 04:15 PM (iYbLN)

129 May check back from time to time to see if some snity and intellegence has returned.

I lost my snity and intellegence long ago. Along with my ability to spel shit corectlee.

Posted by: Downscaled Upscale at August 25, 2011 04:16 PM (IhHdM)

130
Well, if there is any dispute concerning what natural born means, then the Supremes better get it figured out quick what with all the different folks in this country now whose parents were not born here and may be citizens of other countries.

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 04:16 PM (Xm1aB)

131 Constitutional experts have already weighed in on this. The Framers didn't want a President born IN ANOTHER COUNTRY to be elected President due to possible dueling loyalties.

They wanted someone born here IN THE CONTINENTAL UNITED STATES. (now with one island and other territories included.)

Obama's problem is that there are doubts about whether he was born here due to the peregrinations of his mother and father at the time.

Although much is made of his birth certificate claiming his birth occurred in Hawaii, there have been questions raised due to the laxity of authentication carried out by hospitals at that time and whether they issued certificates of a birth that occurred at their hospital OR whether they just accepted the word of the mother and other witnesses no matter where the birth took place.

At least that's the way I understand it.

Whether he's a natural born citizen or not he's still

A STUTTERING CLUSTERFUCK OF A MISERABLE FAILURE!

Posted by: I don't know WHO I am anymore at August 25, 2011 04:16 PM (iniPz)

132 I can't stand thie anymore. I'm off to get a massage.

Get your minds out of the gutter morons.

Posted by: mpfs, TPT, Daughter of the American Revolution bitches. at August 25, 2011 04:16 PM (iYbLN)

133 2007 Bilderberg attendee among other things

sekret meetings!

Posted by: DitzyKielbasaHeifer2 at August 25, 2011 04:16 PM (OK/vv)

134 Too bad we do not have a decent court system to put the matter to rest.
When courts rule against you, they are not decent. And then when you can't get legislative action to correct the judiciary, it's because of gigantic conspiracy on that part of those of us who (1) can read the Immigration and Nationality Act and (2) can comprehend the words therein. And then when the executive enforces the law...well ALL OF THAT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Everyone get that?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 04:17 PM (B+qrE)

Posted by: Delilah at August 25, 2011 04:17 PM (Sr1Ia)

136 http://minx.cc/?blog=86&post=320578#c14388244

115 (ccruze or whatever):

Your comment is far more clarifying and convincing than you ever intended it to be, though not in the way you expect.



Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 04:18 PM (nj1bB)

137 I want a "natural born citizen", as defined in the constitution, the courts and laws so far; a person who was raised and attained adulthood within theborders ofthe United States, not Indonesia, or Kenya, to be the president of my country.

Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at August 25, 2011 04:19 PM (/PFGQ)

138 Wow, tracking back to WND does indeed seem to bring out the lying-ass trolls.

"Read this column for years" was particularly amusing, if stupid. The last hour since this was posted may *seem* like years to some people, but there you go.

WTF can't people just say they disagree without making obviously implausible shit up about being "long-time callers, first-time listeners?"

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at August 25, 2011 04:19 PM (bxiXv)

139 July 1787 letter from John Jay to George Washington:



Dear Sir,

Permit me to hint whether it would not be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of
foreigners into the administration of our national government ; and to declare expressly that the command in chief
of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on
any but a natural born citizen.

I remain, dear sir,

Your faithful friend and servant,
John Jay
-------------------------
The oath of citizenship start:
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and
abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,
state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject
or citizen;

------------------------------------------

And some of you people are still willing to argue that the Founders didn't care about dual citizenship, split allegiances, or foreign influence enough to put the "natural born citizen" requirement in to try and fend off the problems that such would bring?
Again, we have seen what the Founders were worried about, as Barky should have been stopped by the Constitutional requirement. Barky stands as a textbook example of why the "natural born citizen" clause was put in.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 04:19 PM (F5tJy)

140 Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 04:17 PM (B+qrE)
Courts have not weighed in on this... every case has been thrown out due to the Plantiffs not having 'Standing' (they can't proove specific harm).
It has not won... it has not lost... because it has yet to be heard...

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 04:20 PM (NtXW4)

141 Romeo13,

You act like you're dropping the fucking knowledge with your dual citizenship question.

Natural born citizen of the US?
Over the age of 35?

Eligible.

Quit huffing your buddies' fumes. This shit is simple.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 04:20 PM (lGFXF)

142 mpfs, TPT, Daughter of the American Revolution bitches.
My lineage traces back to the Mayflower. So take that Ms. Uppity McUppity.


Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 04:21 PM (4nfy2)

143 132 I can't stand thie anymore. I'm off to get a massage.

Get your minds out of the gutter morons.
Posted by: mpfs, TPT, Daughter of the American Revolution bitches. at August 25, 2011 04:16 PM (iYbLN)

Bow chicka bow wow.

Posted by: Lavernius Tucker, Love Machine at August 25, 2011 04:21 PM (bxiXv)

144 >>Does anyone know if Rubio was born by c-section? Because that's clearly not natural born.

Si, senior.

Posted by: JackStraw at August 25, 2011 04:21 PM (TMB3S)

145 When courts rule against you, they are not
decent.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 04:17 PM (B+qrE)
The courts never ruled against anything. The cases were thrown out for "lack of standing" - American citizens have no right to know that the person occupying the Oval Office is, in fact, eligible for the job. Our brilliant courts have determined that having a usurper in office does no measurable harm to any specific indidvidual, so no one has standing. It's idiotic. All the cases were handled in this bullshit way. It was so ridiculous that even leftist lawyers like Jonathan Turley said that it was eroding confindence in the courts - and for a good reason.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 04:23 PM (F5tJy)

146 The original Constitution has nothing to say about "citizenship" because at the time it was considered to be a State issue. The individual States determined the requirements to be come a citizen of the State.

The a citizen of one of the State was automatically a citizen of the country. That is why Lafayette became legally a natural born citizen.

The 14th amendment then took away the State's authority to determine citizenship.

Posted by: Vic at August 25, 2011 04:23 PM (M9Ie6)

147
"So... it seems the SUPREME COURT had doubts as to the Natural Born status of someone born here, of non citizen parents.... but we care crazy to even ask the question???
How... interesting..."

Well actually, no, that is not what the Supreme Court said in Minor v. Hapersett.
What it says is that SOME authorities have had questions regarding the Natural Born status of children born to non-citizens, BUT that such was irrelevant to the case at hand so the Court would NOT address that issue in that particular case. Who those authorities are is never explicitly identified- they could have been the Supreme Court, they could have been various cited parties, they could have been the 1875 predecessors of WND, and any doubts the Supreme Court may have had were bypassed by simply no considering the issue.
Ultimately all that Minor v. Hapersett establishes is that voting is not a constitutional right.
Of course the question as to whether the children of non-citizens are natural born citizens is addressed in U.S. v Wong Kim Ark, but those who raise the questions always want to ignore the majority decision in that case and cite only the dissent.

Posted by: Sam at August 25, 2011 04:23 PM (V9Tsq)

148 These same morons also attacked Bobby Jindal using the exact same argument.

This has been proven by any credible legal scholar as a bogus argument. Both Jindal and Rubio are eligible to become President.

This is only being brought up because a lot of people are touting Rubio as a VP candidate to appeal to hispanic voters.

Posted by: David West at August 25, 2011 04:23 PM (mw4D7)

149 Ooh thank God you can read between the lines! Not answering the question in my post is quite clarifying and convincing too. You had a good thing going once.

Posted by: ccruse456 at August 25, 2011 04:24 PM (yNoT1)

150 Did I miss somehing? Did Rubio throw his hat in? If not, this is all pissing into the wind.

Posted by: Max Entropy at August 25, 2011 04:08 PM (lH6z9)
He's been mentioned in reference to Romney. I would like to see a Perry/Rubio ticket myself.
To the left, he's like a magnifying glass in the hands of a school boy around an anthill. (Lefties being the ants, obviously)

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at August 25, 2011 04:24 PM (jx2j9)

151 Barky should have been stopped because of his lack of experience and his history of subversive and anti-American ideology, just like many other leftist hopefuls to office who were Natural Born Citizens.

That seems to me to be the weakest argument for splitting Natural Born hairs, we certainly have enough domestic douchebags to go around.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at August 25, 2011 04:24 PM (bxiXv)

152 Well, raised and attained adulthood is pushing it I think.

The Framers only required that the President BE BORN HERE. After that, a person can't be held accountable for the wacky things their parents do.

If that was the case then McCain couldn't be President either. (not saying that's a BAD thing but ....)

I see what you mean though as a person really only becomes 'attached' to their place of birth by growing up there. It's in the bonding and the education.

Which is why Obama can't really connect with those who have a deep affection and love of the country.

Besides him being a SCOAMF of course.

Posted by: I don't know WHO I am anymore at August 25, 2011 04:24 PM (iniPz)

153 Apparently, according to CCruse, "Natural Born Citizen" means "white person."

Racist piece of garbage.

Posted by: Moron Pundit at August 25, 2011 04:25 PM (OrTTr)

154
Do you think these birthers are on to something with Rubio? I'm just asking.

Posted by: Alec Baldwin at August 25, 2011 04:25 PM (Xv7f/)

155 149
Ooh thank God you can read between the lines! Not answering the question in my post is quite clarifying and convincing too. You had a good thing going once.
Posted by: ccruse456 at August 25, 2011 04:24 PM (yNoT1)
You should be banned just for you hash dumbass. That should go to Y-Not.

Posted by: buzzion at August 25, 2011 04:25 PM (GULKT)

156 My father was in Jackyl. Does that mean I can't be President?

Posted by: Dr. Varno at August 25, 2011 04:02 PM (QMtmy)


Yes.


Posted by: © Sponge at August 25, 2011 04:26 PM (UK9cE)

157 So I misspelled "sanity" You know you're over and on target when you start taking flack.

Posted by: Vattell at August 25, 2011 04:26 PM (9UI9e)

158 not connected to anything, but I would like to go to a bilderberger meeting, just to see. kinda like the beginning of the song, Centerfold.

Those soft fuzzy sweaters, too magical to touch

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 04:26 PM (4nfy2)

159 Well, all he has to do is hide his birth certificate, his school and medical records, and any other documentation that would back up his claims, then ask the media pretty please to believe anything he says. Right?

Posted by: starboardhelm at August 25, 2011 04:27 PM (hHgxI)

160 Wasn't it refered to as the Hamilton Clause or whatever the terminology is?

Posted by: Douglas at August 25, 2011 04:27 PM (YKOnu)

161 148
This is only being brought up because a lot of people are touting Rubio as a VP candidate to appeal to hispanic voters.
Posted by: David West at August 25, 2011 04:23 PM (mw4D7)

Um, or because from what we have seen of him so far he is awesome? Be careful that you don't sound like Janeane. Besides, a Biden & Rubio presidential debate would be fab; Biden would pull out a classic Bidenism about Rubio's race and we would laugh as the MSM utterly ignores it. Popcorn worthy.

Posted by: LizLem at August 25, 2011 04:27 PM (lSuMX)

162 Ooh thank God you can read between the lines! Not answering the question in my post is quite clarifying and convincing too. You had a good thing going once.

Posted by: ccruse456 at August 25, 2011 04:24 PM (yNoT1)

You buried your question in enough daddy-issues Aggro that no one gives a fuck what you want.

In simple terms.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at August 25, 2011 04:27 PM (bxiXv)

163 Courts have not weighed in on this... every case has been thrown out due to the Plantiffs not having 'Standing' (they can't proove specific harm).
It has not won... it has not lost... because it has yet to be heard...
Ah, the courts have not weighed in...because every case has been thrown out.
Prevarication that would make Bubba Clinton blush: It's what's for dinner.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 04:27 PM (B+qrE)

164 Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 04:21 PM (4nfy2)

Mayflower, too. What family?

Posted by: Dr. Varno at August 25, 2011 04:28 PM (QMtmy)

165 Everyone re-read # 40 and #49. The person who drafted the 14th amendment and the Supreme Court both agree that a "natural-born citizen" must be born of 2 US citizen parents (sorry Rubio). Rubio is a NATIVE-born citizen, meaning he was born in the US.

There were lots of people in the US who were native-born citizens when the Constitution was written (altho' mind you the 14th amendment wasn't written until 1866). The best example is Presidents John Adams and John Quincy Adams. Many of our founding fathers' families had been in America for several generations. Remember the Pilgrims arrived in 1620 and a new generation begins every 20 years. That would make seven generations by the time the Revolution started, and another 4 generations by the Civil War.

Posted by: Delilah at August 25, 2011 04:28 PM (Sr1Ia)

166 Over the age of 35?



Eligible.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 04:20 PM (lGFXF)
35 what? Which years are those? The Constitution dosn't say. Are they islamic years (which means that a muslim born in American is eligible to be President when he's around 34, by solar years)?We know what "years" the Founders meant (even though they never said "the year of our Lord" or some other indication - though they did write that phrase once, tangentially, at the end, but not in the eligibility requirement) the same way we know what "natural born citizen" meant.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 04:28 PM (F5tJy)

167 The problem that birther's face is that they can't produce a single piece of legislation or a court decision that upholds their claim. This idea that there are three classes of citizens: natural born, native born, and naturalized, is just that..and idea. No where, I repeat, NO FUCKING WHERE in the Constitution, legal code, or Supreme Court will you find native born citizenship being discussed as legitmate. As of right now and as has been for quite some time, there is natural born and there is naturalized. That's it.
So, basically, there is a shit load of current Americans who are either born of a non-American father or an American father who has dual-citizenship that would not be citizens. A hell of a lot of people would need to go take that citizenship test.Because, let me repeat, native born citizenship status DOES NOT EXIST.

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:28 PM (ldOlo)

168 Can't we get these people their own party? Huh?

What a bunch of fuckweasels..

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at August 25, 2011 04:28 PM (f9c2L)

169 Release the Rubio transcripts!!!11ty!

Posted by: MFM at August 25, 2011 04:29 PM (lSuMX)

170 Pedant alert! All units respond!

Posted by: Sean Bannion at August 25, 2011 04:29 PM (sbV1u)

171 157
So I misspelled "sanity" You know you're over and on target when you start taking flack.Posted by: Vattell at August 25, 2011 04:26 PM (9UI9e)

No, you know you're stroking your own ego and other exposed appendages when you think that your declared intent to seek greener pastures will give the rest of us a case of the vapors.

Posted by: No Whining at August 25, 2011 04:29 PM (HmCnI)

172 157 So I misspelled "sanity" You know you're over and on target when you start taking flack.
Posted by: Vattell at August 25, 2011 04:26 PM (9UI9e)

That's funny. Let's play that game.

Stalin took a lot of flak.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at August 25, 2011 04:29 PM (bxiXv)

173 Guys, I think if we all work hard enough we can use this thread to drive out some of the stupidest commenters on AoSHQ.

Let's start with progressoverpeace.

Posted by: Jeff B. at August 25, 2011 04:30 PM (U7ZRW)

174 161

Crap, I meant VP debate. Though, the crazy way things are going lately...

Posted by: LizLem at August 25, 2011 04:31 PM (lSuMX)

175 Quit huffing your buddies' fumes. This shit is simple.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 04:20 PM (lGFXF)
And a Natural Born Citizen, as the FOUNDERS defined it, would not, and could not, be a DUAL CITIZEN... as they understood there were TWO ways to get citizenship... through the Place you were born, or through who your FATHER was...
Under Brit law at the time, anyone born of a Brit Father was a Brit citizen, no matter WHERE they were born.... and they even attempted to enforce it during the War of 1812 when they were impressing American seamen whose FATHERS had been British Citizens.
Now, as a Brit Citizen, you could, if taken under Arms fighting the Brits, be tried, convicted and Executed for Treason... even as a Prisoner of War...
Thus... the Founders WERE interested in making sure the Commander in Chief, had no potential problems in this arena, which is why its ONLY the President who has the Natural Born requirment...
But please, continue with your... interesting... insults... you are amuseing...

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 04:31 PM (NtXW4)

176 You know you're over and on target when you start taking flack.

Posted by: Vattell at August 25, 2011 04:26 PM (9UI9e)
MM, not necessarily. It could be that you're off course and flown into a flock of geese.Or you're taking flak because you're a f**king hack.Get your head out of wherever it is and take a look around. Does it appear that you're in the place you were aiming at.Maybe not.

Posted by: I don't know WHO I am anymore at August 25, 2011 04:31 PM (iniPz)

177 Mayflower, too. What family?

Tinker. My daughters think thats cool because of Tinker Bell. I always tell them no thats the Bell family. They are different.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 04:32 PM (4nfy2)

178 So I misspelled "sanity" You know you're over and on target when you start taking flack.Posted by: Vattell at August 25, 2011 04:26 PM (9UI9e)
I think it's your condescending attitude that makes you a target, not that you actually have an argument. Which you don't.
See, the ability to string together sentence fragments is not actually a skill. Go back and re-read your original post. It's a train wreck.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at August 25, 2011 04:33 PM (sbV1u)

179 And a Natural Born Citizen, as the FOUNDERS defined it, would not, and
could not, be a DUAL CITIZEN... as they understood there were TWO ways
to get citizenship... through the Place you were born, or through who
your FATHER was...

Lafayette was a dual citizen.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at August 25, 2011 04:33 PM (FkKjr)

180 Of course the question as to whether the children of non-citizens are
natural born citizens is addressed in U.S. v Wong Kim Ark, but those who
raise the questions always want to ignore the majority decision in that
case and cite only the dissent.

Yes, the anchor baby people love to cite that case when it doesn't apply to the children of illegal immigrants. It applied to the children of legal immigrants.

Not only that, but it was a bad decision because it totally ignores what the authors of the 14th amendment had to say about :under the jurisdiction of".

Posted by: Vic at August 25, 2011 04:33 PM (M9Ie6)

181 Everyone re-read # 40 and #49. The person who drafted the 14th amendment and the Supreme Court both agree that a "natural-born citizen" must be born of 2 US citizen parents (sorry Rubio). Rubio is a NATIVE-born citizen, meaning he was born in the US.There were lots of people in the US who were native-born citizens when the Constitution was written (altho' mind you the 14th amendment wasn't written until 1866). The best example is Presidents John Adams and John Quincy Adams. Many of our founding fathers' families had been in America for several generations. Remember the Pilgrims arrived in 1620 and a new generation begins every 20 years. That would make seven generations by the time the Revolution started, and another 4 generations by the Civil War.
---------
Right after you re-read them. Did you read the entire court opinion? They basically said, "we aren't really sure about claims that a person born in the U.S. is natural-born without regard to the citizenship of his/her parents, and we aren't going to deal with it either." Now, how do you go from there to what you said that a natural born citizen must be born of 2 U.S. parents according to the court. Excuse me? They took a complete pass on that topic.
And there is that native-born citizen nonsense. Yet, you won't actually find the phrase anywhere in any single piece of legislation, ammendment, or administrative regulation. No where.

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:34 PM (ldOlo)

182 >>Tinker. My daughters think thats cool because of Tinker Bell. I always tell them no thats the Bell family. They are different.

Guy-

Do you know where your family settled after arrival? After Plymouth I mean.

Posted by: JackStraw at August 25, 2011 04:34 PM (TMB3S)

183 That seems to me to be the weakest argument for
splitting Natural Born hairs, we certainly have enough domestic
douchebags to go around.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at August 25, 2011 04:24 PM (bxiXv)
But there are very serious qualitative differences between domestic douche bags who were raised in American culture (and are still subconsciously bound to much of it) and foreigners who have no connection to American culture, at all, and in Barky's case, are openly hostile to American culture.
The American society and government are very unique in the world. They are like nowhere else (except the Phillipines, which adopted our Constitutional framework). The Founders understood the unique nature of the American experiment and were doing their best to guard it against foreign influence (as most foreigners have no concept of our system and how it works).Barky should have been stopped for lots of reasons (his illegal and utterly repulsiv "American" campaign rally in a foreign nation, for foreigners, certainly should have been enough to get him put in jail, let alone thrown out of the race) but, even if they all failed, he just wasn't eligible and should have eventually been thrown aside for that reason.But, that doesn't take away from the fact that Barky stands as an example of WHY the "natural born citizen" requirement was put in. It was not a guarantee against everything, but it was a good standard defense of the unique American system and institutions.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 04:34 PM (F5tJy)

184 Prevarication that would make Bubba Clinton blush: It's what's for dinner.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 04:27 PM (B+qrE)
Interesting... can you point me to a case which HAS been heard? Where the courts have weighed in on what a "Natural Born" Citizen is??? Because I researched this awhile back and could not find one... except the ones I cited...

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 04:35 PM (NtXW4)

185 So, Andrew Jackson, James Buchanan, Chester Arthur, Woodrow Wilson, and Herbert Hoover weren't US Presidents ...

I learn new shit here every day.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at August 25, 2011 04:38 PM (DEcmU)

186 Lafayette was a dual citizen.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at August 25, 2011 04:33 PM (FkKjr)
Yet it was never tested in Court under US Law... he never attempted to USE his US citizenship... and as far as I know never took the Oath of Citizenship, which would have said he Renounced his French Citizenship....

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 04:38 PM (NtXW4)

187 I'm a Christian, and I'm willing to accept that since Rubio was born here, he's good...we can't do anything about that fact. If Obama wasn't born here, yeah I'd have a problem with that, but he wasn't...so this makes this issue stupid.

Posted by: GSain at August 25, 2011 04:38 PM (A3YDf)

188 I seriously cannot believe how many idiots have crawled out of the woodwork to split hairs (and atoms...with their MINDS) on this issue.

Did we get linked from WND?

Posted by: Jeff B. at August 25, 2011 04:39 PM (U7ZRW)

189 They actually died in Plymouth, I guess. I actually have to go thru a branch through a relative that came later, so maybe it doesn't count, but too bad, I am counting it (just to try to one up mpfs).

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 04:39 PM (4nfy2)

190 So basically WND wants us to redefine the presidential eligibility requirements now that a Hispanic guy is being pushed to run.

Charming.

Oh, and:

worship of the brown/black because you are not a believing Christian.

Fuck you.

Posted by: Benson at August 25, 2011 04:39 PM (qzcNU)

191 I challenge any birther out there to go find a single binding legaldocument of any kind that uses the term "native-born citizen" in the sense you guys use it. First of all, you won't actually find it. And second of all, there are plenty of examples outside of binding law of people using it interchangable with natural born...but I digress.

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:39 PM (ldOlo)

192 >>Tinker. My daughters think thats cool because of Tinker Bell. I
always tell them no thats the Bell family. They are different.

Priest was mine, then down through the Pratts.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at August 25, 2011 04:42 PM (QMtmy)

193 Interesting... can you point me to a case which HAS been heard? Where the courts have weighed in on what a "Natural Born" Citizen is??? Because I researched this awhile back and could not find one... except the ones I cited...
Intentionally dense. The hallmark of the birther. If the courts have thrown out every single case...that is itself a statement. No?
Otherwise, I can say that the courts haven't spoken on the inalienable rights of polar bears to run for office in Hickory, North Carolina becasue some loon filed the suit and it was thrown out.
If you were not naturalized and you are a citizen...then you are...what? Don't hurt yourself.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 04:42 PM (B+qrE)

194 Interesting... can you point me to a case which HAS been heard? Where the courts have weighed in on what a "Natural Born" Citizen is??? Because I researched this awhile back and could not find one... except the ones I cited...
--------
That's right. So until this day comes or until Congress just defines the term out-right, we go on with what we know. And what we know is that we have now multiple President's who have had a parent who was not a citizen of this country..or born outside of the country. Now we can re-invent the wheel, or we can just assume that a person who received citizen at birth is therefore natural-born..instead of inventing new classes of citizenship that aren't mentioned in any where in the entire U.S. legal code.

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:43 PM (ldOlo)

195 35 what? Which years are those? The Constitution dosn't say. Are they islamic years (which means that a muslim born in American is eligible to be President when he's around 34, by solar years)?

Actually, I think "muslim years" are the same as "dog years".

Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at August 25, 2011 04:43 PM (/PFGQ)

196 But there are very serious qualitative differences between domestic douche bags who were raised in American culture (and are still subconsciously bound to much of it) and foreigners who have no connection to American culture, at all, and in Barky's case, are openly hostile to American culture.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 04:34 PM (F5tJy)

Ayers and Dohrn. Cloward and Piven. Pfleger and Wright.

I grew up around a lot of hippies who had not only not internalized American culture, some of them were so reflexively opposed to it that it bordered on a mania. We're talking about people who criticize American attitudes and assumptions and cultural cues EVERY DAY, and raise their children that way.

Natural. Born. Citizens.

Now, I'm not saying that electing children of foreign potentates is a good idea, I'm saying that only allowing Natural Born Citizens doesn't *solve* the problem you're talking about.

This particular argument is unpersuasive because the solution doesn't solve the problem.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at August 25, 2011 04:44 PM (bxiXv)

197 Yet it was never tested in Court
under US Law... he never attempted to USE his US citizenship... and as
far as I know never took the Oath of Citizenship, which would have said
he Renounced his French Citizenship....

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 04:38 PM (NtXW4)
He didn't have to take the oath. He and all his male heirs were granted natural born citizenship by Maryland before the Constitution was ratified, which meant under the Constitution they were natural born citizens of the United States.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at August 25, 2011 04:44 PM (FkKjr)

198 The internet: Giving a forum to the deranged or just bat shite crazy since 1994. (You know who you are.)

Posted by: Barking Mad at August 25, 2011 04:44 PM (Xv7f/)

199 May check back from time to time to see if some snity and intellegence has returned.

Posted by: Vattell at August 25, 2011 04:11 PM (9UI9e)
We look forward to your visits; it's important that we have readers who inject a note of snity and intelegence into the debates.You can't fucking spell, or write, or think, but you have plenty of snity.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative)) at August 25, 2011 04:44 PM (LH6ir)

200 If you were not naturalized and you are a citizen...then you are...what? Don't hurt yourself.
-------
Native-born...or so a birther would tell you. But, like I've been saying, that phrase isn't found anywhere in a court ruling, Constitutional ammendment, or U.S. legislation..but somehow that class of citizen exists.

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:44 PM (ldOlo)

201 According to teh Bard, "natural born" means by natural childbirth, not c-section, so....

Posted by: SFGoth at August 25, 2011 04:46 PM (dZ756)

202 That's right. So until this day comes or until
Congress just defines the term out-right, we go on with what we know.

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:43 PM (ldOlo)
It is not in Congress' power to define Constitutional terms, unless the Constitution places it within Congress' power (as with defining Piracy). It can only be interpreted by the courts or redefined/detailed by amendment.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 04:46 PM (F5tJy)

203
I love a good motherfucker-calling contest.........

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at August 25, 2011 04:47 PM (3AuGS)

204 Good lord these birthers are stupid.

Posted by: Bewildered at August 25, 2011 04:48 PM (4w47S)

205 >>They actually died in Plymouth, I guess. I actually have to go thru a branch through a relative that came later, so maybe it doesn't count, but too bad, I am counting it (just to try to one up mpfs).

There are 3 towns that share Plymouth Bay, Plymouth, Kingston and Duxbury. There's an island in the Bay called Clarke's Island that belongs to Duxbury where the Mayflower actually landed first and then the Pilgrims went ashore on Plymouth Pebble the next morning. But I digress.

Duxbury has a bunch of neighborhoods that were settled by various Pilgrim families when they had had enough shit from the tight asses at Plymouth Plantation and they are named after various familes, Standish Shores for example. There's also a section called Tinker Town that got it's name because the settlers were tinkers but I believe they may also have been Tinkers.

Posted by: JackStraw at August 25, 2011 04:48 PM (TMB3S)

206 But please, continue with your... interesting... insults... you are amuseing...

Aww...

There's a LOT of butthurt in that statement. It must suck being the only one who has your sooper sekrit constitutional insight that is printed and the U.S. Constitution and backed up by legal precedent exactly fucking NOWHERE.

Hang on, Romeo. I'm about to drop some fucking SCIENCE.

I was born in Louisiana to parents who also were born in Louisiana. I'm 38 years old. When I get citizenship in Canada in a few years - am I still eligible for the U.S. Presidency?

Blew. Your. Fucking. Mind.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 04:49 PM (lGFXF)

207 How does anything make the argument that a person born on American soil who spends their entire life in America is not, in fact, American?

I can understand if they were born in America and moved somewhere else and somehow lost or rebuked their citizenship but, this? Really?

Posted by: supercore23 at August 25, 2011 04:49 PM (bwV72)

208 *singing* We are the world......we are the children........*retch*

Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at August 25, 2011 04:49 PM (/PFGQ)

209 This is an issue where Ace is dead wrong, and unwilling to look at any evidence which demonstrates how wrong he is.

Here is a quote from the Supreme court case
BARRY v. MERCEIN

4. The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States
during its father's temporary residence therein,-twenty-two months and
twenty days,-notwithstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States.




Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 04:52 PM (t3mKS)

210 Andrew Jackson's father was not an American citizen when he was born. So I guess he wasn't eligible.

Posted by: cp4three2 at August 25, 2011 04:52 PM (V6XjS)

211 It is not in Congress' power to define Constitutional terms, unless the Constitution places it within Congress' power (as with defining Piracy). It can only be interpreted by the courts or redefined/detailed by amendment
-------
So then how do you rationalize the Wong Kim decision in which the courts did interpret the Constitution? By making up a brand new citizenship class.

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:53 PM (ldOlo)

212 A Quote from the Civil rights act of 1866 upon which the 14th amendment was based.


CHAP. XXXI. –- An Act to protect all Persons in the United States in
their Civil Rights, and furnish the Means of their Vindication.
Be
it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America in Congress assembled, That all persons born in the
United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding
Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United
States; and such citizens, of every race and color, without regard to
any previous condition of slavery or involuntary servitude, except as a
punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
shall have the same right, in every State and Territory in the United
States, to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, and give
evidence, to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, and convey real and
personal property, and to full and equal benefit of all laws and
proceedings for the security of person and property, as is enjoyed by
white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, and
penalties, and to none other, any law, statute, ordinance, regulation,
or custom, to the contrary notwithstanding.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 04:54 PM (t3mKS)

213 This is an issue where Ace is dead wrong, and unwilling to look at any evidence which demonstrates how wrong he is. Here is a quote from the Supreme court case BARRY v. MERCEIN 4. The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during its father's temporary residence therein,-twenty-two months and twenty days,-notwithstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States.
--------
Hey, allow me to introduce you to the 14th ammendment, which came after this decision.

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:55 PM (ldOlo)

214 DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 04:52 PM (t3mKS)


How do you do it? How do you know when a birther thread is posted here? You disappear and only pop up when these threads go up.

Spooky.

Posted by: JackStraw at August 25, 2011 04:55 PM (TMB3S)

215 Don't bring a knife, to a gun fight with Ace!

Posted by: Errol at August 25, 2011 04:56 PM (d2AYO)

216 Here is a quote from the Supreme court case BARRY v. MERCEIN 4. The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during its father's temporary residence therein,-twenty-two months and twenty days,-notwithstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States.What I want you to do, genius, is go read the Immigration and Nationality Act (as amended) and then get back to me on whether Marco Rubio is an American citizen.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 04:56 PM (B+qrE)

217 The Author of the 14th amendment (John Bingham) explaining the bill to Congress.


“every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.”

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 04:57 PM (t3mKS)

218
You're wrong about birthers claiming a natural born citizen must be born from natural born citizen parents. Quite the contrary. The whole concept of natural born citizen was designed to address the issue in the early days of the Republic, which had to do with British lineage of the colonists.

Posted by: hannitys_hybrid at August 25, 2011 04:57 PM (zpqa2)

219 There is a rich legislative history defining the term "natural born citizen" available on the Internet, complete with residency time tables if only one parent is an American citizen. Marco Rubio falls within the legal definition of natural born citizen. It might be worth tracking this stuff down, and proving Marco is a NBC.

Posted by: Keating Willcox at August 25, 2011 04:57 PM (zsyG/)

220 Idle time, idle minds.

Posted by: Tsar Nicholas II at August 25, 2011 04:57 PM (f8XyF)

221 John Bingham again explaining the salient part to Congress.

All from other lands, who by the terms of [congressional] laws and a
compliance with their provisions become naturalized, are adopted
citizens of the United States; all other persons born within the
Republic, of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty,
are natural born citizens . Gentleman can find no exception to this
statement touching natural-born citizens except what is said in the
Constitution relating to Indians.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 04:57 PM (t3mKS)

222 ~ tap tap tap tap tap ~

This is the microphone that is on? Yes? Yes.
and ... so,

What is brown and sticky?

The answer is - and you will wait for it - a stick!

what is brown and sticky and eligible to run for President of the United States?

A stick that is of natural born trees.

Thank you thank you thank you!

-

Posted by: Hadji the Muslim Comim at August 25, 2011 04:58 PM (h6mPj)

223 What I want you to do, genius, is go read the Immigration and Nationality Act (as amended) and then get back to me on whether Marco Rubio is an American citizen.
-----------
And this is where the birther's lose the fight. They want to declare the Rubio's of the world citizens..just not "natural born." So they invent native-born.
Let me tell you guys something. I'd be much more willing to listen to your side if you'd actually argue for what is closer to the law and the things you quote. That would be this: Those who are not born of an American father owing no allegiance to a foreign power are not CITIZENS. That's a better argument than this "Hey, let's create a third class of citizenship out of thin air" routine you guys do.

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:59 PM (ldOlo)

224 "Rubio pushers like you have in common with the Chris Matthews set is worship of the brown/black"

Someone is gonna worship me because I'm brown???
Where da White women????

Posted by: Hooray for Captain Spaulding at August 25, 2011 04:59 PM (p1nSm)

225 "We're getting a little ahead of ourselves, aren't we? Anyone think Rubio is running in 12?"

No, but he's been mentioned frequently as a VP candidate.

Posted by: Brown Line at August 25, 2011 05:00 PM (VrNoa)

226 Lovely. I hope these birthers represent their party with the same cool judgement, calm manner and cultural sensitivity as the previous lot.

Posted by: Jordan at August 25, 2011 05:00 PM (4z6KA)

227 The Author of the 14th amendment (John Bingham) explaining the bill to Congress. “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.”
---------
Ok, I'm right there with you, but I want you to keep going down this line of thought. Stick with the law. There is no native-born citizenship as far as the law is currently concerned. So that means that if Rubio isn't natural born..he isn't a citizen at all. Are you willing to say that?

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 05:01 PM (ldOlo)

228
--So then how do you rationalize the Wong Kim
decision in which the courts did interpret the Constitution?

They didn't address "natural born citizen". Only in the dissent was it addressed.--By making
up a brand new citizenship class.

Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:53 PM (ldOlo)
"Dual citizen" is a brand new class. I didn't make it up.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 05:01 PM (F5tJy)

229 given ace's justified sensitivity to us/we morons and racial issues -

Are jokes / comments / riffs about Rubio's birth certificate being printed on a piece of ephemera that is traditionally associated with a migrant, Spanish-speaking work force permitted?

as an exemplar ... a Pollo Loco placemat?

thanks in advance!

Posted by: BumperStickerist at August 25, 2011 05:04 PM (h6mPj)

230 In case you thought Congressman Bingham didn't know what he was talking about, here is Senator Howard (Who shepherded the 14th through the Senate)

Sen. Jacob M. Howard: "This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners,
aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers
accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include
every other class of persons. "

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:05 PM (t3mKS)

231 Testing? Wow, methinks even I'd have banned me by now. Well thanks for the soap box Ace. God bless

Posted by: ccruse456 at August 25, 2011 05:05 PM (yNoT1)

232 "Dual citizen" is a brand new class.
Which (a) has no bearing on Senator Rubio and (b) also has no bearing on the constitutional meaning of natural born or the legal requirements of the Immigration and Nationality Act for citizenship.
Next.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:05 PM (B+qrE)

233 Hey, I read on the internet that dual citizens only pay half their income taxes because they're half-citizens.

BLEARHGNURFDAHHHH!!!!

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 05:05 PM (lGFXF)

234 And another Senator of that same Congress:


Sen. Lyman Trumbull: [T]he provision is, that 'all persons born in
the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are
citizens.' That means 'subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.'
What do we mean by 'complete jurisdiction thereof?' Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:05 PM (t3mKS)

235 EOJ you're becoming a Canadian citizen? I know they allow dual citizenship but dear lord man, a Canuck seriously?

Posted by: polynikes at August 25, 2011 05:06 PM (0FEvE)

236
The New Englander, Volume 3 (1845) states: "The expression ‘citizen of the United States occurs in the clauses
prescribing qualifications for Representatives, for Senators, and for
President. In the latter, the term ‘natural born citizen’ is used and excludes all persons owing allegiance by birth to foreign states."



Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:07 PM (t3mKS)

237
And the Supreme court again.

Slaughterhouse Cases, 83 U.S. 16 Wall. 3636(1872)"That
its main purpose was to establish the citizenship of the negro can
admit of no doubt. The phrase, "subject to its jurisdiction" was
intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States."

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:08 PM (t3mKS)

238 Ace, you are on "his" side every time you lose the opportunity to, oh I don't know, espouse Buckley or something or other, by spending lots of time on defense.

More Buckley.

Q: Do you think you have any chance of winning?
WFB: No
Q: How many votes do you expect to get, conservatively speaking?
WFB: Conservatively speaking, one.

http://tinyurl.com/3s4vr6x

Posted by: notquiteunBuckley at August 25, 2011 05:09 PM (Bo7bD)

239 What I want you to do, genius, is go read the
Immigration and Nationality Act (as amended) and then get back to me on
whether Marco Rubio is an American citizen.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 04:56 PM (B+qrE)

Listen you stupid shithead, NO ACT OF CONGRESS can amend an ARTICLE of the CONSTITUTION. If you do not know that, then you should shut your ignorant mouth.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:10 PM (t3mKS)

240 Birther Arguments For Dummies:

Birther: (spouts lunacy) "Now, prove I'm not a looney! PROVE it!"

Jeff: "I can't do that."

Birther: "Internet win! INTERNET. FUCKING. WIN!"

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 05:11 PM (lGFXF)

241
Hey, allow me to introduce you to the 14th ammendment, which came after this decision.


Posted by: Rich at August 25, 2011 04:55 PM (ldOlo)

I know it better than do you. Don't try to teach a hound dog how to suck eggs.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:12 PM (t3mKS)

242 God, I feel sorry for DL's chicken.

Posted by: Damn Dirty RINO at August 25, 2011 05:12 PM (+iwM3)

243 @ 241 -- Still trying to work through those abandonment issues, DL?

Posted by: Damn Dirty RINO at August 25, 2011 05:13 PM (+iwM3)

244 Rubio's parents were naturalized. He is a natural born citizen, owing allegiance to none but the United States. It is purile nonsense to claim otherwise.

Don't be spoutin' nonsense.

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at August 25, 2011 05:14 PM (LH9qe)

245
How do you do it? How do you know when a birther thread is posted here?
You disappear and only pop up when these threads go up.




Spooky.

Posted by: JackStraw at August 25, 2011 04:55 PM (TMB3S)

I'm here every day. I just think this issue is significant, and I will jump into a discussion of it whenever I see one.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:14 PM (t3mKS)

246 @ 245
-- Sorry to bother you there, but could you please explain to me how Rubio or his parents owe allegiance to any other nation?

Posted by: Damn Dirty RINO at August 25, 2011 05:16 PM (+iwM3)

247 I was born in Louisiana to parents who also were born in Louisiana. I'm 38 years old. When I get citizenship in Canada in a few years - am I still eligible for the U.S. Presidency? Blew. Your. Fucking. Mind.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 04:49 PM (lGFXF)
Under the Founders ideals? no, you would not, because you would have to Give up your US Citizenship when you took Canadian...
Even under the defintion of 'Natural Born', you still must be a Citizen IMO...
And this, in a nutshell, is the problem... the Founders were working off one set of definitions, we are now working off another...

As to the 'Butt hurt'? Lets see.... how many times have I, becaue I have a differing opinion, been called stupid in this thread???? When I am the ones giving quotes? while others just deride my intelligence?

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 05:17 PM (NtXW4)

248 "Buckley ended up spending so much time defending himself that he lost the momentum he had gained by being a purveyor of brash new ideas. He acknowledges that his political inexperience was a major handicap as he allowed himself to drift off message and into a defensive posture."

http://tinyurl.com/3s4vr6x

Posted by: notquiteunBuckley at August 25, 2011 05:19 PM (Bo7bD)

249 Hmmmm... simple excercise...
In the Constitution, they talk about being a 'Citizen' and how long you must be a citizen for most offices.
Only for the President, do they speak of 'Natural Born Citizen'... does not that show that THEY thought there was some distinction between the two?

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 05:21 PM (NtXW4)

250 Birthers,

Unfortunately, the the definition you ascribe for "Natural Born Citizen" has no basis in law, regulation, or court precedent, but only as unenforceable opinion. Kim Wong Ark IS the only current operative interpretation of the 14th Amendment.

Now those opinions are persuasive, and would be useful in drafting law, regulation, or court decision. But it means nothing as the law is currently written and interpreted.

Get Over It, and Get Over Yourselves. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:21 PM (xNnAQ)

251 I can quote nonsense with no conception of how things are for a long time. If you want, I can start with the Anti-Federalist Papers which would prove... hold on... nothing about the topic - but I certainly could quote the fuck out of it. It'd sound quite like you, with as much applicability.

It isn't because you are stupid, it is because you are nonsensical. Silly. Irritatingly dense, maybe. But not stupid. You're just absolutely 100% wrong.

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at August 25, 2011 05:21 PM (LH9qe)

252 Read this. That's U.S. Code Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter III, Part I, §1401.
Marco Rubio is a natural-born U.S. citizen. Supreme Court decisions from 1872 and congressional debate over the 14th amendment are tangential bullshit exercises.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:21 PM (B+qrE)

253 Putting the Nuts into World Nuts Daily

Posted by: NUTS! at August 25, 2011 05:21 PM (mmHDH)

254 re 251 was referencing #247

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at August 25, 2011 05:23 PM (LH9qe)

255 Listen you stupid shithead, NO
ACT OF CONGRESS can amend an ARTICLE of the CONSTITUTION. If you do not
know that, then you should shut your ignorant mouth.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:10 PM (t3mKS)
An act of Congress can (and should) interpret an article of the Constitution. Hasn't been done, yet.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:24 PM (xNnAQ)

256 INTERNET WIN!

INTERNET WIIIIIINNNNN!!!

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 05:25 PM (lGFXF)

257 NO ACT OF CONGRESS can amend an ARTICLE of the CONSTITUTION.
Ah, OK. 35 and natural born is amended by "you're born here, you're natural born" is an amendment. Gotcha, Chief Justice Roberts. Oops, forgot that your bullshit has never actually been settle in court becasue the courts think you are a bunch of loonies.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:26 PM (B+qrE)

258 Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:21 PM (B+qrE)
I see Nationals, and Citizens... I do not see the definition of "Natural Born Citizen" whichIS in the Constitution.
And I again note... there is only ONE Office that holds that restriction... all others talk about 'Citizen'....

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 05:27 PM (NtXW4)

259 Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:24 PM (xNnAQ)

Hasn't been done by Congress for the term "Natural Born Citzen" specifically yet, I mean to clarify.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:28 PM (xNnAQ)

260 Is it because he's a lesbian?

Posted by: Damn Dirty RINO at August 25, 2011 05:30 PM (+iwM3)

261
Unfortunately, the the definition you ascribe
for "Natural Born Citizen" has no basis in law, regulation, or court
precedent, but only as unenforceable opinion. Kim Wong Ark IS the only current operative interpretation of the 14th Amendment.

Now
those opinions are persuasive, and would be useful in drafting law,
regulation, or court decision. But it means nothing as the law is currently written and interpreted.

Get Over It, and Get Over Yourselves. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.


Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:21 PM (xNnAQ)

Minor v Happersett is the defining Court opinion on Natural born citizen. Wong Kim Ark merely defines "citizen." Wong Kim Ark was based ENTIRELY on the 14th amendment, while Minor v Happersett (also after the passage of the 14th amendment.) is based on the Article II definition.
The Supreme court said:
“1. The word “citizen ” is often used to convey the idea of membership in a nation.
2. In that sense, women, if born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction of the United States, have
always been considered citizens of the United states, as much so before
the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution as
since.”


“The Fourteenth Amendment did not affect the citizenship of women any more than it did of men. In this particular, therefore, the rights of Mrs. Minor do not depend upon the amendment.
She has always been a citizen from her birth and entitled to all the
privileges and immunities of citizenship. The amendment prohibited the
state, of which she is a citizen, from abridging any of her privileges
and immunities as a citizen of the United States, but it did not confer citizenship on her. That she had before its adoption.”

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:31 PM (t3mKS)

262 "his connection to Trans Texas Corridor, SPP,open borders, Gardisil, 2007 Bilderberg attendee among other things."

Oh. My. Gawd.

Posted by: WeekendAtBernankes at August 25, 2011 05:31 PM (KJMY9)

263 Hasn't been done by Congress for the term "Natural Born Citzen" specifically yet, I mean to clarify.
Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:28 PM (xNnAQ)
Actualy, (going by memory here so I could get the dates wrong)... the 1789 Law which defined citizenship specificly talked about making people 'Natural Born Citizens' by being born here... BUT in 1793 (somthing like that) they AMENDED that law back to just 'Citizen'.
Whey the Amendment if they did not think it somehow needed to be fixed?

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 05:31 PM (NtXW4)

264 I see Nationals, and Citizens... I do not see the definition of "Natural Born Citizen" whichIS in the Constitution.
Article I, Section 8--Congress has the power to establish a uniform rule of naturalization. Natural Born is not defined in the Constitution. Put two and two together, geniuses.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:34 PM (B+qrE)

265 I can't see how, legally, anyone can make this an issue at this late day. If Rubio isn't eligible to be VP, then America wants the last 2 1/2 years of its life back.

Posted by: Laura Castellano at August 25, 2011 05:34 PM (fuw6p)

266 WND Challenging Marco Rubio's Eligibility to Be President

So did I miss something? Did Rubio just declare himself a candidate for the Republican presidential nomination or something?

Or is this nothing more than the old, stupid, leftist, legacy media attempting to launch a scorched-earth campaign?

Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at August 25, 2011 05:35 PM (1rHeD)

267
Hasn't been done by Congress for the term "Natural Born Citzen" specifically yet, I mean to clarify.


Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:28 PM (xNnAQ)
If you think a ruling by Congress constitutes proof, then here you go. (Passed Unanimously, with Barack Himself voting for it.)



Whereas
John Sidney McCain, III, was born to American citizens on an American
military base in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved,
That John Sidney McCain, III, is a `natural born Citizen' under Article
II, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States.110th CONGRESS2d SessionS. RES. 511RESOLUTIONRecognizing that John Sidney McCain, III, is a natural born citizen.
April 24, 2008

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:37 PM (t3mKS)

268 Romeo13 - FYI a naturalized citizen is a citizen. So is a natural born citizen. The deep misunderstanding you have is not being able to think about two types of citizens and equate them except for the job of the chief executive. However, millions of citizens managed quite easily to understand that (for it is part of the naturalization process to do so) that for over a century.

You're just fixated on your hobby horse, not realizing it isn't some grand charger but is instead a rather hilarious two-foot tall toy made out of pine.

That's a figure of speech - don't want you to misunderstand and come out against PINEWOOD AAARG.

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at August 25, 2011 05:37 PM (LH9qe)

269 As has been said before, those 1845 and 1872 cases are bullshit. They don't matter anymore, just like Dred Scott isn't good law anymore, just like Plessy vs Ferguson isn't good law anymore. In law, it's the most RECENT Supreme Court case on the matter that is determinative, not the oldest!
All are superseded by Wong Kim Ark. 1898. If you're born here andyou're a citizenthe instant you're born, thenyou're a natural born citizen. There is no such thing under the law as "natural born citizens" and "unnatural born citizens" who have some kind of second class citizenship. Naturalized citizens are a completely different class, obviously, since they are NOT citizens by right of birth.
This really is a very simple matter to figure out, there's not that much to it.
This is coming from the same clowns who said McCain wasn't a natural born citizen, either, since he was born on a military base in Panama. Really, the GOP is much better off without you people in the party. Go play with Ron Paul or something.

Posted by: Tom Servo at August 25, 2011 05:38 PM (T1boi)

270 My birth certificate is signed by a US Ambassador, while the average birther has Dr. Joe Bob signing theirs, yet in their world I'm not really an equal citizen because only one of my parents was a natural born citizen of the USA.

Birthers = Truthers, just different angleson the same turd.

Posted by: digitalbrownshirt at August 25, 2011 05:40 PM (C6OjH)

271 Actualy, (going by memory here so I
could get the dates wrong)... the 1789 Law which defined citizenship
specificly talked about making people 'Natural Born Citizens' by being
born here... BUT in 1793 (somthing like that) they AMENDED that law back
to just 'Citizen'.
Whey the Amendment if they did not think it somehow needed to be fixed?

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 05:31 PM (NtXW4)

You are referring to the "naturalization act of 1790" which was replaced in 1795 with an act making no reference to "natural born citizen."
The Original act specifically prohibited the Children of Foreign fathers from becoming citizens. Not only were they not "natural born citizens" they weren't citizens at all!
This act was passed by the first congress, made up of many of the Delegates to the Constitutional Convention, and they certainly knew what was the meaning of what they voted on in the Convention.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:40 PM (t3mKS)

272 If you think a ruling by Congress constitutes proof, then here you go. (Passed Unanimously, with Barack Himself voting for it.)
Hey, jackass--the vast majority of us considered John McCain a natural born citizen since we have two gray cells to rub together and we can read and comprehend a law.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:42 PM (B+qrE)

273 that
sense, women, if born of citizen
parents within the jurisdiction of the United States, have
always been considered citizens of the United states, as much so before
the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution as
since.”

That does not set the definition as being only that which satisfies the criteria for citizenship- and it doesn't have the magic adjectives attached, either.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:42 PM (xNnAQ)

274 Article I, Section 8--Congress has the power to establish a uniform rule of naturalization. Natural Born is not defined in the Constitution. Put two and two together, geniuses.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:34 PM (B+qrE)

The only word which IS defined in the Constitution is "Treason." Madison himself mentioned that the Constitution defined few words because they expected subsequent generations to interpret it in accordance with the language of the time in which it was written.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:42 PM (t3mKS)

275 re: progressoverpeace
But then, you folks are the ones who think the Founders would be cool
having a President who holds citizenship in 132 other nations at the
same time.
---
Yeah so I might be willing to consider the debate over citizenship but everyone i meet who is into that birther stuff, says ridiculous stuff like that simply because other people disagree. Why are birthers so prone to hysterics?

Posted by: lowercaseM at August 25, 2011 05:42 PM (BAB2X)

276
Ha, I told you guys that this post would bring out all the fun commenters

Anyways, here is the REAL scoop:

I have it on good authority when Marco Rubio was conceived, his parents were going at it "doggie-style" (as the kids say). This is CLEARLY an UNNATURAL act. A birth following an unnatural conception is CLEARLY NOT a NATURAL birth.

Therefore, not natural born. Q.E.D. bitches.

Posted by: dan-O at August 25, 2011 05:44 PM (BAjNF)

277 Why are birthers so prone to hysterics?
It is the hallmark of the terminally righteous.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:44 PM (B+qrE)

278 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:40 PM (t3mKS)
Thanks... I'd read those a couple of years ago... and had hazy memory of it...

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 05:45 PM (NtXW4)

279 Wow, there's some bitches seriously channeling CaHrLS of LGF.
Must be that time of the month when their panties are bunched up the worst.
Seriously, who reads WND and considers it "News".
Barking Moonbats from the right side of the blogsphere is more like it.

Posted by: Gmac at August 25, 2011 05:46 PM (k2Fyd)

280 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:37 PM (t3mKS)

Not law, but opinion of Congress - not signed by the President. Besides, the US code defines his situation as citizen at birth. Look it up.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:46 PM (xNnAQ)

281 All are superseded by Wong Kim Ark. 1898. If
you're born here andyou're a citizenthe instant you're born,
thenyou're a natural born citizen. There is no such thing under the
law as "natural born citizens" and "unnatural born citizens" who have
some kind of second class citizenship. Naturalized citizens are a
completely different class, obviously, since they are NOT citizens by
right of birth.Posted by: Tom Servo at August 25, 2011 05:38 PM (T1boi)

Wong Kim Ark is not the Deciding Case. Minor v Happersett was. Ark cites the 14th, Minor cites Natural law. Even so, the Ark interpretation was at odds with the Intention of the Amendment's authors as pointed out above. The Supreme court got that one wrong.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:46 PM (t3mKS)

282
One thing about all the enlightened commenters here:

Don't act like you are a constitutional scholar, or an historian. You haven't read a fucking primary source in your life.

You got these fucking birther talking points either from that book by whats-his-name, or from the internet somewhere.

Posted by: dan-O at August 25, 2011 05:47 PM (BAjNF)

283 Madison himself mentioned that the Constitution defined few words because they expected subsequent generations to interpret it in accordance with the language of the time in which it was written.
You mean like "Congress," "power," "establish," "uniform," "rule," and "naturalization"? Those kinds of words? Whatever could those have meant in the late eighteenth century?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:47 PM (B+qrE)

284 You're just fixated on your hobby horse, not realizing it isn't some grand charger but is instead a rather hilarious two-foot tall toy made out of pine. That's a figure of speech - don't want you to misunderstand and come out against PINEWOOD AAARG.
Posted by: Inspector Asshole at August 25, 2011 05:37 PM (LH9qe)
LOL... well at least your name is appropriate...
Interesting that YOU can come to a legal conclusion, that the Supreme Court, when they DID look at Citzenship, could not... ie what is the definition of 'Natural Born Citizen'...
I believe I will side with the Supremes, vice a self name Asshole... and continue to postulate the question.

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 05:49 PM (NtXW4)

285
My birth certificate is signed by a US
Ambassador, while the average birther has Dr. Joe Bob signing theirs,
yet in their world I'm not really an equal citizen because only one of
my parents was a natural born citizen of the USA.



Birthers = Truthers, just different angleson the same turd.

Posted by: digitalbrownshirt at August 25, 2011 05:40 PM (C6OjH)

Waaaaa for you. The Court Decided in Roger v. Bellei (1960 something) that Bellei was a citizen by Statute, and therefore had a residency requirement. Though he was born to an American citizen, he lost his citizenship because he hadn't met the residency requirement. The court also held that a "natural born citizen" does not have to meet a residency requirement, and that their citizenship CANNOT be taken away.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:49 PM (t3mKS)

286 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:46 PM (t3mKS)

Then the Supreme court has to change it - and cite Minor. Until then, you're out of luck.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:49 PM (xNnAQ)

287 Hey, jackass--the vast majority of
us considered John McCain a natural born citizen since we have two gray
cells to rub together and we can read and comprehend a law.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:42 PM (B+qrE)



You obviously can't, because everything i've seen you write is crap.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:50 PM (t3mKS)

288 Posted by: dan-O at August 25, 2011 05:47 PM (BAjNF)
Ahhh... painting with a broad brush here?
I have never read a birther book... I have read some comments about this subject... many internet postings... and the source documents (like Minor, and Wong, and the Laws themselves)....
Have you? or is this another 'your just stupid' post as so many on this thread are?
Suprised I have not been called a Racist or Bigot yet....

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 05:52 PM (NtXW4)

289 My lineage traces back to the Mayflower. So take that Ms. Uppity McUppity.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes

So does mine sweetie. We were rowing the boat.

Posted by: mpfs,TPT, Daughter of the American Revolution Bitches & Boat Rower at August 25, 2011 05:52 PM (iYbLN)

290 The Supreme court got that one wrong.
Annnnnd there it is.
All hail the birther nitwit, the Supremes got it wrong, you see. And Congress has unlawfully amended the Constitution. And the executive has enforced it. All unconstitutional. If only someone had predicted this.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:53 PM (B+qrE)

291 There are legitimate points of debate about the "natural born" thing, but this Rubio thing does not involve any of them. I've seen "stupid", and I've seen "intentionally obtuse". This is beyond that. I'll call it "intentionally crazy".

Posted by: Optimizer at August 25, 2011 05:54 PM (As94z)

292 Not law, but opinion of Congress - not signed by
the President. Besides, the US code defines his situation as citizen at
birth. Look it up.


Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 05:46 PM (xNnAQ)

And if "US code" declared that everyone in the world was a "natural born citizen" you would salute that idiocy as well. If you do not comprehend that NOTHING BUT AN AMENDMENT can change the meaning of an Article of the Constitution, then you are not worth listening to.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:54 PM (t3mKS)

293 If you do not comprehend that NOTHING BUT AN AMENDMENT can change the meaning of an Article of the Constitution, then you are not worth listening to.
Like Article I Section 8. That kind of Article?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:56 PM (B+qrE)

294 You mean like "Congress," "power," "establish,"
"uniform," "rule," and "naturalization"? Those kinds of words?
Whatever could those have meant in the late eighteenth century?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:47 PM (B+qrE)

"Naturalization" is citizenship by statute. You can lose your citizenship by statute. See Roger v. Bellei.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:56 PM (t3mKS)

295 All hail the birther nitwit, the Supremes got it
wrong, you see. And Congress has unlawfully amended the Constitution.
And the executive has enforced it. All unconstitutional.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:53 PM (B+qrE)

I predict you will remain an ignorant asshole. You have the makings of nothing else. I bet your next message will confirm my prediction.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:58 PM (t3mKS)

296 Like Article I Section 8. That kind of Article?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 05:56 PM (B+qrE)

If you think "naturalization" is the same thing as "natural born citizen" then you can clap at President Schwarzenegger's inauguration.I think i'm about done here. You willfully ignorant folk can pretend to be smug now.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 06:03 PM (t3mKS)

297 I predict you will remain an ignorant asshole. You have the makings of nothing else. I bet your next message will confirm my prediction.
Sorry, dude--you're going to have to do better than ad hominems. I note that you deleted the reference to my prescient post at 134.
Marco Rucio is a natural born American citizen. Prove me wrong--I beg you to correct the errors of my ways. Win it for your team!!! Righteousness is on your side!!! How can the system possibly ignore such legal and constitutional brilliance?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 06:04 PM (B+qrE)

298 If you think "naturalization" is the same thing as "natural born citizen" then you can clap at President Schwarzenegger's inauguration.
If you can show me where I confuse those two concepts be my guest.
However, I'll toast to you and your remarkable intllect at President Rubio's inauguration.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 06:05 PM (B+qrE)

299

Minor vs Happersett(1874) was about Female Suffrage - the rest was just dicta, and not dispositive as to the instance of birthright citizenship. Wong Kim Ark came 24 years LATER and thus overrides any contrary dicta in M v H.
and the question in Wong Kim Ark was EXACTLY on point:
"The question presented by the record is whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution,
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
read on, and the Court in Wong Kim specifically overrules the use of "natural law" in Hapersett.
the final, dispositive, and most recent Supreme Court ruling which stands as Good Law to this day is this:
"The evident intention, and the necessary effect, of the submission of this case to the decision of the court upon the facts agreed by the parties were to present for determination the single question stated at the beginning of this opinion, namely, whether a child born in the United States, of parent of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States. For the reasons above stated, this court is of opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative."
"The Supreme Court got that One Wrong." HAH! The Eternal Complaint of the Legal Loser!
Right up there with "We wuz robbed! The refs threw the game!" These are the only Refs we've got, baybee.

You want to change that ruling? Amend the Constitution, cause that's the only way it'll ever be overturned.

Posted by: Tom Servo at August 25, 2011 06:08 PM (T1boi)

300 ermmm ... he was born in Miami. That makes him an American, like it or not. And both Congress and the SCOTUS agree with this.


What kind of a mutant dumbass are you, "Diogenes lamp"?

Are you going to be more boring than libertarian Jason, a few threads ago? At least he could hold up his end of an argument, instead of just plugging his ears and yelling "LA LA LA - everyone else is wrong! - LA LA LA".

Posted by: Kristopher at August 25, 2011 06:11 PM (Z3y1K)

301 No! No!

Not the Rusty Trombone!!!

Posted by: DiogenesChicken at August 25, 2011 06:13 PM (+iwM3)

302 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 25, 2011 05:54 PM (t3mKS)

We're not talking about what ifs, but what is.

Wait, you are talking about what ifs. As in, what if they actually defined birthright citizenship as "Natural Born Citizen" in those specific words?

BTW, if the US code did say that, there would be a challenge, and it would fall.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 06:15 PM (xNnAQ)

303 BTW, if the US code did say that, there would be a
challenge, and it would fall.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 06:15 PM (xNnAQ)
Because of the 14th Amendment, I should add.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 06:20 PM (xNnAQ)

304 Brattleboro, VT Zoning Commission Minutes, May 14, 1893:

" Resolved that knickerbockers worn in public spaces shall be fastened below the knee. And if your parents weren't born here, you're not a citizen, just because they were. Well, kinda, but not a "natural born" citizen."

INTERNET WIN!!!

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 06:21 PM (lGFXF)

305 Carrying the nutcases argument over "natural born citizen" they do realize that by their definition none of our Founding Fathers would have been eligible to be President? Only citizens born in the country after we won our freedom would have been born to American citizens, meaning we would have had to wait at least 35 years to elect our first president.

Posted by: Just A Grunt at August 25, 2011 06:26 PM (Zg56g)

306 The parents of Wong Kim Ark were NOT subject to the emperor of China. They were legal immigrants to the United States, and thus subject to U.S. law.

And also why that ruling does not apply to anchor babies. In addition, it doesn't reference "natural born citizen" at all.

Posted by: Vic at August 25, 2011 06:26 PM (M9Ie6)

307 Posted by: Just A Grunt at August 25, 2011 06:26 PM (Zg56g)
Uh... read the Constitution? The Founders were Grandfathered in as part of that clause.

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 25, 2011 06:30 PM (NtXW4)

308 So how did we get any President during the first 50 years or so when everybody either had been born a British subject or their parent had been born a British subject?

Ah, fuck it, I don't really even want to engage this bullshit. I've totally tuned out the whole birther thing for 2+ years now.

Luckily WND is on the case. Help us, WND, you're our only hope!

Posted by: Clubber Lang at August 25, 2011 06:31 PM (QcFbt)

309 Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at August 25, 2011 06:35 PM (pV6cO)

310 I'm anxious to see what kind of billboards and yard signs they come up with.

¿Donde nacieron sus padres, Marco?

Posted by: Damn Dirty RINO at August 25, 2011 06:42 PM (+iwM3)

311
Please, Ace. Calling out a commenter on the front page? Where he or she won't get the chance to rebut or defend?
Then, after doing such things, you question the maturity of others?
You challenge that exact behavior in your political opponents, while claiming the moral high ground, but you engage in the same immature behavior as they, each and every day.
BTW, how's that 'It can't happen in America' thingy werkin' out fer you folks, anway? Is reality meeting your expectations? ...or are you still in denial?

Posted by: Warren Bonesteel at August 25, 2011 06:44 PM (E7Z1r)

312
Obama is the seventh president born of at least one parent who was not born in the U.S. At least one other president (Arthur) had a parent who was not a U.S. citizen at the time of the president's birth. I don't have time or the inclination to check the immigration status of the parents of the others.
James Buchanan (1857–1861): Irish father
Chester Arthur (1881–1885): Irish father naturalized longafter Chester's birth
Woodrow Wilson (1913–1921): English mother
Herbert Hoover (1929–1933): Canadian mother
Barack Obama (2008–present): Kenyan father
Jefferson and Jackson had parents born outside of the U.S., but both men were in the U.S. at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, so the "or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" exception applies.

Posted by: jimstoic at August 25, 2011 06:48 PM (HKxUC)

313 Posted by: Just A Grunt at August 25, 2011 06:26 PM (Zg56g)

Art I, Sec 8 makes specific exception for that situation.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 07:00 PM (xNnAQ)

314 313
Posted by: Just A Grunt at August 25,
2011 06:26 PM (Zg56g)

Art I, Sec 8 makes specific
exception for that situation.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 07:00 PM (xNnAQ)
Sorry, Article II, Sec 1:No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United
States,
at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to
the
Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office
who
shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been
fourteen
Years a Resident within the United States.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 07:03 PM (xNnAQ)

315 Posted by: Warren Bonesteel at August 25, 2011 06:44 PM (E7Z1r)

His blog, dude. Got a problem? Get your own blog. Start a war.

Besides, that commenter had his say further in the comments, and wasn't banned.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 07:09 PM (xNnAQ)

316 Rubio will teach those hispanics to be conservatives or something. Great Hispanic Hope

Posted by: Gore88 at August 25, 2011 07:11 PM (S/qP2)

317 There is no basis for saying a natural born citizen has to be born from two natural born citizens. None, not at all. In fact, if you think about it then there are no natural born citizens outside of Indian tribes -- and since those tribes originally migrated from Asia not even them.

Posted by: The Atom Bomb of Loving Kindness at August 25, 2011 07:13 PM (jqHOY)

318 I'd argue "Natural-born" would be in contrast to Adopted....
so that one could not confer citizenship

Posted by: scottl at August 25, 2011 07:19 PM (zO+Rx)

319 Funny how they never do this to the white candidates.

Posted by: JEA at August 25, 2011 07:28 PM (R8hZG)

320 Just to clarify, if Mr. and Mrs Putin, have a baby here on a visit, the kid will be able to run for President? Not really sure that would be a good idea...or what the founders intended.

Posted by: Rob in Katy at August 25, 2011 07:53 PM (gdGJ1)

321
JEA: They did, with Chester Arthur. But nice try at playing race card, we have some lovely parting gifts for you.

No time to read the 319 comments in front of me, so this may have been covered already, but the full text is:

natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution

That pretty well means "born here, even if it was before the U.S. was here." If "natural born" requires two citizens, then pretty much the entire generation born shortly after 1787 would be ineligible.

Posted by: Ken Summers at August 25, 2011 07:56 PM (mBccI)

322 But Rob, see 14th Amendment.

Posted by: Ken Summers at August 25, 2011 07:57 PM (mBccI)

323
It's not a racist thing. It's not a what's good for the goose is good for the gander thng. Its a Constitution thing, you arrogant prick. Read Vattel, the founding fathers did. They put the NBC phrase in there and GRANDFATHERED themselves in even though most of them were born in THIS COUNTRY. Yes I realize it was not the US yet but it was this land, this country. WHY would they feel the need to do that if simply being born here was sufficient in their eyes. They lived through tyranny and the threat of a traitor's death if they lost the gamble. Your snarky wiser than thou attitude makes me sick, much like the rest of the fucking heros in the media, mainstream and internet. So many are loathe to call this marixst cocksucker out out of fear of OMG they might call me racist or OMG what if EVERY ONE of these issues is a red herring, I might look stupid. Where the fuck did common sense and men with backbones go? WHY is this asshole and the Hawaiian DOH fighting the release of the allegedly already releases BC? Remember that one, the one with the 9 plus layers in Adobe, the one with the fucking happy face in the Registrar's signature? Think that might be something? Or maybe you could focus on the cocksucker's use of the CT SSN when neither he orany of his family ever lived there. It was issued to a person born in 1890 in 1977 when the delicate genius was about 15 in hawaii. Think THAT night be something to explore? How about asking why the name Harrison J. Bounel is attached to that same SSN, living at Obama's address in Chicago and related to Michelle Obama? Think that might be some ID theft by the asshole to live high on the hog back in the 80s and 90s without paying for it? Something his mentor Ayers openly brags about, ID theft with false SSN. What about his other alias, Barry Soetoro? Too obtuse for the readers here to comprehend? Is that your fear? I realize this is probably the principal source of revenue for you Ace and it would seem risky but for Christ's sake quit poo pooing this shit. Everything about him smells of shit, looks like shit and tastes like shit. So quit trying to feed the public a shit sandwich and convince us that we are fucking retarded.

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 25, 2011 07:57 PM (/WCFE)

324
Ya know, calling a commenter out on the front page...invitng the regulars to pile on...sounds quite a bit like a certain bicyclist who has a blog.
Chas, is that you? Have you taken over Ace's blog while he was out having a life?
'Cause you know, Ace hates it when you do that, and Ace, being ad honest, justand fair sort of guy -who's always defending The American Way of Life - from the way he's often described himself, just would't stoop to such lame and immature behavior.

Posted by: Warren Bonesteel at August 25, 2011 08:03 PM (E7Z1r)

325
@324
AND cherry picks an apparent racist to do it to. Softball shit.

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 25, 2011 08:07 PM (5PQZU)

326 @ 324 -- Ace has a long-standing tradition of calling out idiots on the front page of this blog. Perhaps he didn't realize that "Commenter" is a protected class.

Posted by: Damn Dirty RINO at August 25, 2011 08:13 PM (+iwM3)

327 @ 325 -- I'd say he addressed the general idiocy elsewhere in the post, and singled out the particularly nefarious kind of idiocy for highlighting. Hell, if he wasn't selective about the idiocy he's highlighting on the front page, he'd have to migrate the post over to its own server.

Posted by: Damn Dirty RINO at August 25, 2011 08:17 PM (+iwM3)

328
@321
natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution
That pretty well means "born here, even if it was before the U.S. was here." If "natural born" requires two citizens, then pretty much the entire generation born shortly after 1787 would be ineligible.

Uhh NO. That means the founding father's definition of NBC OR ANYONE who was a citizen of the colonies/new country at the time of adoption of the Constitution.
Now take that one step further and wonderWHY they felt the need to grandfather the currently (1780s)alivegenerations in to be eligible for Prez and Vice Prez. Could it be... because according to their understanding, they themselves did not fit the criteria they wanted to establish for future generations to protect against the very thing we are living through today? A "world citizen", part Eurotrash wannabe, part third world tinpot dictator wannabe, part anti personal liberty pure American hating lunatic leftist. Mostly just a cocksucker. They couldn't be born an American Citizen to two American citizen parents when the country did not exist prior.
ken I assume you are just trying to conflate the issues and muddy the waters to confuse the trogoldytes.
PS. You suck.

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 25, 2011 08:22 PM (5PQZU)

329 Thanks Warren. (My gratitude in no way assumes any agreement with my posts)

Posted by: ccruse456 at August 25, 2011 08:24 PM (pSIyy)

330
@312
I believe all o fthe examples you listed had parents who were at least naturalized citizens of the US when the President was born...with the exception of Arthur. There were questions regarding I believe his father having British/Canadian citizenship when Chester was born in Vermont. Much like our current oval office squatter, Arthur hid all of his records until he died due to the controversy, burning them all at the end. So common sense dictates he had something to hide. Now who else hides innocuous birth and other personal records from their childhood? Oh yeah. Ace's kumbaya partner.

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 25, 2011 08:32 PM (tMvgE)

331 Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 25, 2011 08:22 PM (5PQZU)

Or perhaps they, who personally fought so hard for independence, were born British, or German (like my greatX6 Grandfather), or French, or whatever, but earned citizenship by the sword and wanted to avoid this discussion back then.

NBC has no definition other than citizen at birth, as delineated in Kim Wong Ark.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at August 25, 2011 08:35 PM (xNnAQ)

332
Vattel is not part of the Constitution.
Vattel is not part of our history of jurisprudence.
The Founders may indeed have read it, but they also read English Common Law, which was quite clear that any parents who were not ambassadors or invading soldiers were "subject to the jurisdication" of the country, and therefore their children were "natural born" subjects/citizens.
As I said earlier, it is rather amusing that the Birthers want to rely on a theoretical book by a Swiss author regarding Continental European law in direct conflict with established English Common Law on this, but go ballistic at the merest suggestion that a judge would consider laws, rulings, and commentaries offoreign courts, judges, and theorists for anything else.
What is it about the Presidency thatthey wouldlet foreigners with no connection to our history of jurisprudence decide the standards we use?

Posted by: Sam at August 25, 2011 08:45 PM (V9Tsq)

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Posted by: dby5423t at August 25, 2011 09:01 PM (w/9M2)

334
@331 and 332 Read Minor v happersett only time SCOTUS addresses the meaning of NBC.
Part of the opinion:
The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens.
Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the
nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was
never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its
citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives,
or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some
authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the
jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts,
but never as to the first.
BORN IN A COUNTRY OF PARENTS WHO WERE ITS CITIZENS - PLURAL. It was never doubted (that these were NBC). I suspect that might be the generally accepted DEFINITION. However citizen's children born without regard to their parents' citizenship, there have been doubts. I think Ive dumbed that down enough for you two.

Kim Wong Ark is bullshit static to muddy the issue, like the 14th Amend gives Obama the right to unilaterally raise the debt ceiling. Ah the magical 14th, and here i thought it was all about the freed slaves and making things right for them. English Common Law? I suspect Jefferson and madison are rolling over in their graves regretting not adding another sentence to define the meaning. A rare lack of foresight that hundreds of years later, after a very effective dumbing down of the American education system, the issue/definition would be open to debate.

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 25, 2011 09:10 PM (tMvgE)

335
In the year 1866, the United States for the first time adopted a local municipal law under Sec. 1992 of U.S. Revised Statutes that read: All persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are declared to be citizens of the United States. Rep. John A. Bingham commenting on Section 1992 said it means every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen. (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))
Shamelessly stolen.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at August 25, 2011 09:17 PM (1hM1d)

336
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Posted by: Watership Down AudioBook at August 25, 2011 09:22 PM (z3/Dt)

337 Ya know, calling a commenter out on the front page...invitng the
regulars to pile on...sounds quite a bit like a certain bicyclist who
has a blog.

While Ace has been acting more on edge lately, I certainly don't blame him for doing it here.

The idea that "natural born citizen" meant being born in the United States was accepted by pretty much everybody prior to Barack Obama's run for President. When people debated the problems of anchor babies, those trying to stop it focused on changing the law. Virtually no one (I'd say "no one," but I'm sure you can find some random guy somewhere) argued those babies weren't actually citizens. It was taken for granted that changing the law was necessary.

This is an entirely made up issue by A.) people with a grudge and little regard for honest research and B.) people who don't know any better.

It gets frustrated arguing a completely made-up issue. Hell one poster just cited him hiding his birth certificate records as if we're still going to argue whether he was actually born here. I certainly don't blame Ace for losing it over that.

BTW, as far as:

I believe all o fthe examples you listed had parents who were at least
naturalized citizens of the US when the President was born...

The U.S. used to be incredibly lax over naturalization. I seriously doubt this was the case. I have ancestors who came here in the late 1800s and lived until the 30s, never naturalized (at least officially), never needed to be--whether or not their kids were citizens was disputed by no one. This is an idiotic argument by anybody with any historical knowledge as opposed to merely knowing a bunch of random bull they read off a conspiracy website.

Posted by: AD at August 25, 2011 09:23 PM (tZyw2)

338 @336 So for the more obtuse, when Rubio was born and his parents were still citizens of Cuba(owing allegiance to cuba, legally) he is notNBC. Not that Rep Bingham had the authoirty to unilaterally make that decision.

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 25, 2011 09:27 PM (5PQZU)

339
@338 Where to start?
The idea that "natural born citizen" meant being born in the United States was accepted by pretty much everybody prior to Barack Obama's run for President
Oh, it was tweeted and such, thats authoritative. being ignorant of history does not change it.

This is an entirely made up issue by A.) people with a grudge and little regard for honest research and B.) people who don't know any better.

I do havea grudge against secretive fucks who run for the highest public office in teh land, and against useful idiot apologists for the secrecy.

The U.S. used to be incredibly lax over naturalization. I seriously doubt this was the case.
Oh! AD SERIOUSLY DOUBTS THATS THE CASE. I submit to that authority. You are the better man my friend, please accept my apologies. Go do some actual research and refute me then you tool.

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 25, 2011 09:36 PM (I1k8X)

340 Oh, it was tweeted and such, thats authoritative. being ignorant of history does not change it.

Look, this is like disputing whether water is wet. You either weren't politically active prior to '08 or didn't pay attention to legal issues at all.

I do havea grudge against secretive fucks who run for the highest
public office in teh land, and against useful idiot apologists for the
secrecy.

He just proved your skepticism about him being born outside the U.S. was wrong. Does that make a difference to you? No, of course not. You still hold a grudge. I don't like the guy. But I don't like the guy because I am completely against his politics and think he's a bad leader. If I think something and it turns out to be wrong, I change my opinion. I don't continue to hold a grudge on that issue. You do, so your opinion's worthless. For instance, while I thought he was born in the U.S. I did think he was hiding dirt on his birth certificate and that was why he didn't produce it. He produced it. No dirt--so I changed my opinion. You didn't.

Oh! AD SERIOUSLY DOUBTS THATS THE CASE. I submit to that authority."

But I should submit to yours? Did you post links here showing they're all natural born citizens? Nope.

So...

Go do some actual research and refute me then you tool.

Likewise.

No research is necessary to respond to you when you don't think any is necessary to support your opinions in the first place.

Bite me, loser.

Posted by: AD at August 25, 2011 09:48 PM (tZyw2)

341 @ 339 -- Hey, dumbass. You do realize that it's Marco Rubio and not his parents that we're talking about here. How is it that a child not born in Cuba legally owes allegiance to Cuba, irrespective of his parents' citizenship status?

Posted by: Damn Dirty RINO at August 25, 2011 09:53 PM (+iwM3)

342 This issue has been around since 2008, and Ace still doesn't even know what it's about.

Posted by: Rip at August 25, 2011 09:55 PM (onO2O)

343
@335
Yes, you certainly dumbed down Minor v. Hapersett, "conveniently" redacting the last line of that section:
"For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts."
Which of course makes it clear that Minor v. Hapersett absolutely does not contain any ruling as to whether or not the children of non-citizens are natural born citizens.
Starting from that bit of willful deception it is not wonder that you move on to dismissing U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark completely, not even trying to use the dissents from that to "prove" your position.
I've said it, others have said it:
U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark establishes that the children of non-citizens are natural born citizens, plain and simple.

Posted by: Sam at August 25, 2011 10:03 PM (V9Tsq)

344
I was initially happy he was the candidate rather than Hillary but, I've been against the ass since before the election because I actually had some intellectual curiosity and actually did some research from multiple sources. The guy is a walking case of identity theft and American hating insanity.I suspect you do you research watching TV.
He just proved your skepticism about him being born outside the U.S. was wrong. Does that make a difference to you? No, of course not. You still hold a grudge. I don't like the guy. But I don't like the guy because I am completely against his politics and think he's a bad leader. If I think something and it turns out to be wrong, I change my opinion.
Sounds like you are talking abouthis aforementioned digitally released BC that shows obvious signs of forgery due to it's NINE layers in the document, partially computer generated signatures on a 1961 document as well as an anomolous happy face in Alvin Onaka's signature. Go look at that closer. I change my opinions when warranted but when a guy releases a total of about 10 pages of documents to prove where he's been, what he's been doing for 48 years, yeah I dont give the guy the benefit of the doubt on anything.
Giveusliberty1776
obamareleaseyourrecords
Take a glance at these and open your eyes just a little.

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 25, 2011 10:08 PM (I1k8X)

345 Sounds like you are talking about his aforementioned digitally released BC that shows obvious signs of forgery...

Hah, I knew it.

This is at least entertaining. We haven't had this kind of thread since the Paulbots were here. I kind of miss them.

Posted by: AD at August 25, 2011 10:11 PM (tZyw2)

346 Ace - I and many others were TAUGHT the meaning of Natural Born Citizen in public school. I was taught this at more than one grade level. Approximately mid-late 70's. Born in the US of 2 US Citizen parents.

I did not know where that definition came from until just a few years a go - but the definition is from Vattel's 'Law of Nations' (tha is the book George Washington never returned to the library as was reported a couple years back - clearly the founding fathers used it as a reference).

I believe I was taught that specific definition for a reason. It once had meaning. Recently, that meaning has been intentionally confused and blurred.

You and others who refuse to hear the 'birthers' out are asking us to ignore what we were taught in favor of a blurred definition that nobody really can or wants to define. What does the term 'Natural Born Citizen' mean if not Vattel's definition? You just have to be born here?

Reading thru the comments I can find any number of 'birthers' who present cogent arguments and present facts.

Ace brings no facts - just smears. He makes no attempt at defining Natural Born Citizens - but mocks those who do attempt to define it.

So Ace and all you 'anti-birthers' a CHALLENGE to you:

YOU tell us what the founding fathers meant by 'Natural Born Citizen' and cite your reference. It had to be in existence at the time of the writing of the Constitution, and it would be helpful if you could definitively PROVE that one of the founding fathers actually borrowed the book from a library or possessed it at one time.

Birthers have a definition, they cite a source for their definition and they have proof that Washington himself read Vattel. Birthers have a strong case.

Ball is in your court, 'anti-birthers'.

Posted by: DGroundhog at August 26, 2011 01:03 AM (WHPwa)

347 We also have the Curious Case of John McCain.

McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone to two US Citizens. Surely he was born a US Citizen right? So WHY DID CONGRESS HAVE TO RULE ON HIS ELIGIBLITY????

Congress ITSELF has shown us that 'born in the US to 2 US citizen parents' is a valid definition because that is the definition they challenged McCain with.

Posted by: DGroundhog at August 26, 2011 01:11 AM (WHPwa)

348 Press StatementHillary Rodham Clinton
Secretary of State
Washington, DC

July 29, 2011

On
behalf of President Obama and the people of the United States, I am
delighted to congratulate the people of Switzerland on the 720th
anniversary of your republic this August 1.

In the seven centuries since the first Federal Charter was signed,
the Swiss Confederation has played an important role in world affairs.
Your rich history of neutrality gives you the ability to mediate and
reconcile difficult conflicts. You have been a vital partner for over 30
years representing American interests in Iran and other countries
throughout the world.

America’s Founders were inspired by the ideas and values of early
Swiss philosophers like Jean-Jacques Burlamaqui and Emer de Vattel, and
the 1848 Swiss Constitution was influenced by our own U.S. Constitution.
Swiss commitment to democracy is an example for nations and people
everywhere who yearn for greater freedoms and human rights.

As you celebrate this special day, know that the United States stands
with you and we look forward to a future filled with friendship and
cooperation.


Posted by: DGroundhog at August 26, 2011 01:25 AM (WHPwa)

349 Rubio is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure. I demand a recount on that Florida senate race. There's no way he could beat my twin, Charlie.

Posted by: Jon Huntsman at August 26, 2011 02:44 AM (ApIyR)

350 Jon Huntsman is a Natural Born Killa and is so eligible to be President.

Posted by: Snity (I'm back, Bitches) at August 26, 2011 04:31 AM (ppYRZ)

351 and lets not forget that constitutional scholar and apparent NBC Roger Calero who was allowed on the ballot in five states as a citizen of Nicarauga and a comvicted felon. NAH! couldn't happen here!

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 26, 2011 07:10 AM (w48t9)

352 With all the star treatment I received from my original post I never really broke down my overall theory: there are a ton of questions about Obama's eligibility that are not answered because he is black. The same hands off treatment is being applied to Rubio because he's considered brown.
Worship of the Black Man has become another post-Christian religion whichI believe is evil, and every bit as dangerous as other post-Christian religions invented by white people- such as communism, nazzism, and global warming. A believing Christian would not fall for any of them.

Posted by: ccruse456 at August 26, 2011 08:33 AM (pSIyy)

353
@342
Hey dumbass, its a two step process he has to meet to qualify as NBC.
1 Born in this country
2 of US citizen parents.
THATS the argument "birthers" make.
His parents were Cuban citizens when HE was born. Agree with it or not, ultimately the SCOTUS will have to rule and quit dodging the issue for "Lack of Standing" excuses. I wish they would so I know whether our Republic and our Constitution still stands.

@344 and 346 - Fogbow. Nothing more.

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 26, 2011 09:18 AM (tMvgE)

354 I used to think this blog was edgy, entertaining and honest. Now I realize its populated by too many sheep and parrots.

Posted by: allahallahoxenfree at August 26, 2011 09:21 AM (tMvgE)

355
Ace wrote:Instead they used three words -- "Natural born citizen," which seems to
imply a citizen whose citizenship is by birth and not by legal operation
or the naturalization
But I'm reliably informed that when they used these words they really
meant "second generation citizen" or "born of two natural born citizen
parents," and yet apparently didn't feel like writing in plain English
and so made a muddle of things.

Is that about right?
No, Ace, it is not right, and you would know this had you paid any attention to "birther" discussions. A very few people will occasionally make a remark such as you cite above. They are immediately drowned out by the vast majority of people who correct them.

You have done exactly what you hate about the Mainstream media. In the manner that they will look for blatant racists at Tea Party events to represent the rest of the Tea Party, you have done the same thing with the seldom stated opinion of the occasional ignorant,
. You owe birthers an apology, but I know better than to expect that from you. On this subject you are simply rabid. I believe your attitude is the result of Cascade and Herd theory.

http://tinyurl.com/3dgouuh

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 26, 2011 09:50 AM (t3mKS)

356 This has stumped the goto guys at the Daily Caller:

Who was the most famous U.S. dual-citizen pre Chester Arthur and post 1789? What was the second nationality of said individual?

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Posted by: lusefer at August 26, 2011 09:06 PM (B0Yzx)

358 Ace demonstrates by stating a lie that he expects us to take him at his word. Birthers have objected to Obama not because of his parents but as to the fact of whether Obama was born in the US as is required by the Constitution. An individual born to US parents in Japan is an American but unable to qualify as a candidate for president. Ace has consistently repeated this lie and misrepresented this simple fact. One wonders why the presentation of something as simple as a birth certificate was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees to avoid doing.

So Ace is either dishonest, uninformed,believes in unicorns or is a secret Obama supporter.

Posted by: Molon Labe at August 26, 2011 09:48 PM (JyCYK)






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A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)
News/Chat