Ryan's Plan: Necessary But Not Sufficient (Bumped)

Paul Ryan released his new deficit-cutting budget plan today, saving almost $6 trillion over the next 10 years, which is very nice. Really. The National Committee on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform released a similar plan last December, saving almost $2 trillion by 2020, and it too was nice.

Really.

Despite my tone, I am a big fan of these plans, and earnestly hope that at least most of their features will be implemented. But lest we violate the guiding maxim of the estimable Winston Wolfe, let's remind ourselves of exactly how bad things are, so that we understand just what these plans can and can't do for us.

In FY 2011, we are running a $1.425 trillion deficit. This single year of spending will take our public debt from 62.1% of GDP up to 69.1% of GDP. Now, in our daily life, whenever we run up a debt the first thing we ask is: How long will it take me to pay this off?

So, how long will it take to pay off the debt we're adding just this year? Or, a slightly easier task: how long will it take to get the debt/GDP ratio back to what it was only 6 months ago?

Please understand that we're talking about money we're burning right now. We're halfway through the fiscal year, so we're right in the middle of running up this tab that we're going to have to pay off. And the Dems won't let us slow our spending to any significant degree.

So, how long? Let's point out right away that the White House budget never pays a penny of the 2011 debt back. In fact, the public debt keeps climbing and climbing, reaching 87% of GDP by 2021. So only the two budget reform plans are even trying to pay that money back. And just how fast are they hoping to do that?

Have a look:*

PublicDebtRyanvsCommissionSmall.gif

The gray line is where we were at the end of September 2010 ==> that's our target. The blue line is the Obama administration's baseline budget. As you can see, it sails off into the stratosphere. This is the budget plan the Democrats are defending.

The teal line and red line are the Deficit Commission and Ryan's plan, respectively. The teal line makes it back to the gray line by the end of 2022. Ryan's plan? Well, you'll have to wait another 10 years.**

So here's the bottom line. If you believe that the GDP will start growing at a healthy rate and continue at that rate forever, and if you manage to reform Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, and if you reform the budget process, and if you reform the tax code, and if you accomplish all these reforms in FY12, then you might be able to pay off this year's spending within 11 to 12 years. Or maybe the decade after.

This is what the President and his crackerjack economic team have wrought. A one-year deficit that is so large that it can only be paid back if everything goes exactly right. And if everything goes exactly right, we're still looking at decades before we can get back to the debt level we had only 6 months ago.

But, on the bright side, perhaps as early as 2023 we can start working on paying off the FY10 deficit.

So when the Dems start their caterwauling about how "extreme" the GOP's suggestions are, just remind them that these "extreme" suggestions may not succeed in paying back even 1 year of Obama's spending.

*S. Weasel worked on an earlier version of that chart, using Ryan's old numbers. It looked great, but then it became obsolete before I got around to using it. I wanted to get this up quickly, so I just plotted it up myself. My apologies to Ms. W., and my thanks for her efforts.

**One of the key reasons that Ryan's plan pays down the debt more slowly is that he caps government revenue at 19% of GDP, while the National Commission lets it keep rising towards 21%. The Commission didn't take into account the likely negative effect of increased government revenue on GDP (Ace also talks about this below), so their projections are likely to be optimistic.

Posted by: Geoff at 02:02 PM



Comments

1 Remember that Ryan's plan doesn't even tweak Social Security, leaving that battle down the road. Any progress on that front will help dramatically.
And we will see a tax increase, probably ending up around the old Clinton rates. That's a bargaining chip. Of course, you won't see any of the Democrats offer that as a poison pill because they know we'd jump all over that deal.
Otherwise we are so boned.

Posted by: spongeworthy at April 05, 2011 11:20 AM (rplL3)

2 Good post, Geoff.

But what about the cowboy poets? Have you thought about them?

Posted by: Slublog at April 05, 2011 11:22 AM (0nqdj)

3 we need to stop spending....we need to stop the bail outs, in country and out of country, we need to drill baby drill and we need to toughen up and quit whining

Posted by: phoenixgirl at April 05, 2011 11:22 AM (eOXTH)

4 From what I read, the leadership and "the will of the conference" nixed going back to '06. So the moderate Republicans refuse to speak the truth because they want to keep their seats and the Dems refuse to engage because they want to win big in 2012. We're boned.
ETA: Ryan's Budget: By the Numbers

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 11:24 AM (UO6+e)

5 Can we just enjoy the feeling, however fleeting, of a chance to stop digging?

Posted by: Jean at April 05, 2011 11:24 AM (WkuV6)

6 Remember that Ryan's plan doesn't even tweak Social Security, leaving that battle down the road.

If I thought he could ever win that battle, I'd be encouraged.

Posted by: geoff at April 05, 2011 11:27 AM (Fj/WG)

7 Since we know nothing will happen major until 2013. I say in 2013 we pass ryan's plan. That will get us away from the cliff at the very least. Then we can sprinkle in some rand paul cuts, and last but not least unleash our energy potential which will create jobs/taxpayers and spur economic growth which also helps revenue. Our budget will look a hell of alot better after these steps.

Posted by: Dan at April 05, 2011 11:27 AM (mXBxH)

8 Let me know if you ever see a claw in my back...

Posted by: Sosh Security at April 05, 2011 11:27 AM (ihSHD)

9 Can we just enjoy the feeling, however fleeting, of a chance to stop digging?

Yes. You have 8 seconds.
...7
...6
...5
...4
...3
...2
...1
...Okay, feeling over now. Back to business.

Honestly, I kind of love Ryan's plan. I mentioned a tactic whereby this plan is adopted and shows two things: 1) That Granny and Grampa won't starve and 2) that it's not nearly enough. Then, another one is passed- that makes more drastic cuts/reforms to Medicare and Medicaid, and begins actively addressing SS. And that cycle would continue until we're back to sanity.

I hope that's the plan. I think it has a chance of working.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 11:28 AM (8y9MW)

10 The Ryan roadmap does address social security with a 55 age cutoff for those who will still stay in the current system vs alternatives like private accounts.

I understand this is not the roadmap, but the plan to prosperity.

Posted by: Dan at April 05, 2011 11:29 AM (mXBxH)

11 Is Obama going to react to this, or wait for the press release from Soros' conference to state his position without a chance for a screw up in translation.

Posted by: Jean at April 05, 2011 11:31 AM (WkuV6)

12 B-b-but we can print teh monies! Deficits don't matter!

This is why I didn't do a DOOM! post today; Geoff had the DOOM well covered with this post. Like him, I advocate the Ryan plan wholeheartedly, not so much for what it *is* so much as for what it *represents*. It's an adult approach, it's serious, and it's probably the most "realistic" plan either party will propose.

But "realistic" is the sticking point -- any politically-palatable solution is almost certain to fail because we need to start cutting now, not ten or twenty years from now. If we keep shying away from telling the seniors and welfare-cases that they are going to have to accept benefit cuts, then we implicitly accept the probability of failure.

Do read Congressman Ryan's report, though. It's a DOOM! document after my own heart, but Ryan actually ends it with an upbeat message rather than a picture of an ugly cat.

Posted by: Monty at April 05, 2011 11:33 AM (4Pleu)

13 The leadership told them to be vague about SS, so they were vague about SS. This budget basically requires that the president must act once x, y, and z occur, whatever that those are.
Though I did notice Rep. Lankford (R-OK)-- another brilliant budgeteer, btw-- did mention this as a first step during the Budget presser, so I'm thinking certain parties within the GOP might crawl-out of their holes if they see a proper sale "click" with the average American. I certainly hope so, anyway.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 11:33 AM (UO6+e)

14 Is Obama going to react to this, or wait for the
press release from Soros' conference to state his position without a
chance for a screw up in translation.

Posted by: Jean at April 05, 2011 11:31 AM (WkuV6)
Neither...he'll go golfing.

Posted by: Tami at April 05, 2011 11:33 AM (VuLos)

15 I Love a Rainy Night

Posted by: Eddie Fuckin' Rabbitt at April 05, 2011 11:34 AM (QPhZk)

16 Personal responsibility an idea whose time is past, but will be embraced again one day in the near future.

Posted by: MarkC at April 05, 2011 11:36 AM (yPPVC)

17 This entire situation is frustrating beyond words. We have anumber of factions within both parties who aren't going to accept this because it's supposedly too extreme.All this work and not much is going to come of it.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 11:36 AM (UO6+e)

18 Didn't the Deficit Commissionplan to raise taxes?
At least Ryan is cogniscent of the economic effects of that little disaster...
I'd back Ryan.

Posted by: TexasJew at April 05, 2011 11:36 AM (QK1rf)

19 The Ryan roadmap does address social security with a 55 age cutoff for those who will still stay in the current system vs alternatives like private accounts.
Cite?

Posted by: spongeworthy at April 05, 2011 11:37 AM (rplL3)

20 "The Obama Misery Index and the Rise of Obamavilles is the best blog post Ive read in a long time. This is why President Obama will be a one-term president!

I cant recommend this piece highly enough. This will be all the ammo well need when talking to other voters during the 2012 general election.

I read on another site a comment on how many surrogates for President Obama are praising Mitt for Romneycare in order to hurt him with his base. Mitt finally defended himself on Saturday when he said: You may have noticed that the President and his people spend more time talking about me and Massachusetts healthcare than Entertainment Tonight spends talking about Charlie Sheen."

Posted by: Dan at April 05, 2011 11:37 AM (9L1z6)

21 Go to 110% on the printing presses!

Posted by: Capt Tupolev at April 05, 2011 11:37 AM (GQ8sn)

22 Shut the dang gubment down.
Rep. Ryan is the Brad Stevens of Congress, unflinching,and I support the Ryan/Rubio ticket for 2012.
The Democrats cannot answer Ryan's budget and also have no answer to his understanding of the budget. There has not been a budgetsince W was President.Let 'er rip, GOP.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky at April 05, 2011 11:38 AM (FnRYN)

23 I think the MBM will carry the Donks water, vilify the Republicans, and we'll lose this round politically just like we always do. It's the "natural course" of government once people start voting themselves checks.
Ryan only makes sense to rational people.

Posted by: Beagle at April 05, 2011 11:38 AM (sOtz/)

24
Cite?

He's talking about Ryan's old roadmap, which I assume is now obsolete.

Posted by: geoff at April 05, 2011 11:40 AM (Fj/WG)

25 Here's the full budget report, key facts figures, and a comparison/contrast plus a ton of other links.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 11:40 AM (UO6+e)

26
And this will fly bird like into the glass window of those unicorn and skittles "independent" voters who don't like to have a serious discussion and will approve of whoever promises to keep the monies flowing and the problems down the road.
Of course they'll also go batshit insane when the whole system falls apart and blame whichever major party happened to be standing when the music stopped.
Color me skeptical of the "independents" who make it possible for big spenders to win.

Posted by: I want my skittles at April 05, 2011 11:40 AM (CoWPm)

27 The gray line is a bit of a misnomer. Percentages should be relative to GDP in their respective years rather than a FY 2010 baseline (translation: the gray dotted line should have a bit of a parabolic effect going forward, or the percentages should be modified accordingly). Presumption of a flat gray line is no growth in the forecast horizon. We can argue that budgets from either end of PA Avenue contain rosy scenarios regarding future growth, but I think if you picked any 15 year window historically you'll find some growth in GDP over its course.

/geek hat

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at April 05, 2011 11:41 AM (BvTwT)

28 Cite?He's talking about Ryan's old roadmap, which I assume is now obsolete.

Posted by: geoff at April 05, 2011 11:40 AM (Fj/WG)
I believe Ryan mentioned exactly that (55 age cutoff for SS) in his presser today.

Posted by: Tami at April 05, 2011 11:41 AM (VuLos)

29 Do read Congressman Ryan's report, though. It's a DOOM! document after my own heart, but Ryan actually ends it with an upbeat message rather than a picture of an ugly cat.
Posted by: Monty at April 05, 2011 11:33 AM (4Pleu)

That's too bad about the cat. I think I'm going to start appending pictures of ugly cats to everything I write. If my boss asks why I'll say that it's the Cat of Doom, that's why! Sure, I'll be unemployed but at least there will be cats.

Posted by: joncelli at April 05, 2011 11:42 AM (RD7QR)

30 Go to 110% on the printing presses!

You arrogant ass! You've killed us all!

Posted by: some doomed Soviet submariner at April 05, 2011 11:43 AM (YvNBz)

31
Percentages should be relative to GDP in their respective years rather than a FY 2010 baseline

I don't follow. All the projections are percentages of the GDPs for those years. The question is when to we return to 62% of GDP.

Posted by: geoff at April 05, 2011 11:43 AM (Fj/WG)

32 Chairman Ryan said the other day thatthe Medicare proposals within this budget are more like Ryan-Rivlin than what's in the Roadmap. The leadership (excepting Hensarling) never endorsed his Roadmap and they won't.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 11:43 AM (UO6+e)

33 22: Ryan doesn't want to run, but heck, if any candidate other than Huckabee just SAYS they will 100% support Ryan's budget plans and push the senate to pass them they'll have my full support.

Posted by: Palerider at April 05, 2011 11:44 AM (5CusZ)

34 Posted by: geoff at April 05, 2011 11:40 AM (Fj/WG)

I don't think its obsolete, I think it's delayed.

In software development, we occasionally use a delivery methodology called Scrum (some of you may know about it). One of its main selling points is that it is iterative development with a usable product at the end of every single iteration.

Consider this a plan along those lines: we start with what we have any chance of getting (warning, don't be surprised to see this negotiated down. However, having started in the "Trillions" range of deficit reduction, don't expect the American people to settle for Billions again this cycle). After we've got that and, hopefully, at least the Senate (and hopefully the Presidency, too) in '13, we implement the next step. All along the way we keep showing people that we're not starving Granny, and we're not letting people die in the streets.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 11:44 AM (8y9MW)

35 on a sports message board political thread I read a guy who said Obama actually lowered federal spending compared to Bush and that this years deficit is mostly social security, medicaid, medicare.

The argument is not what to cut, but whether we even need to because Obama has already done it. I am in amazement.

Posted by: Reality Man at April 05, 2011 11:44 AM (9AQdP)

36 Posted by: Dan at April 05, 2011 11:37 AM (9L1z6)
Shut the Fuck Up, Dan.

Posted by: Eddie Fuckin' Rabbitt at April 05, 2011 11:44 AM (QPhZk)

37 I believe Ryan mentioned exactly that (55 age cutoff for SS) in his presser today.
Posted by: Tami at April 05, 2011 11:41 AM (VuLos
Yesterday, too.

Posted by: Eddie Fuckin' Rabbitt at April 05, 2011 11:45 AM (QPhZk)

38 EddieRabbittsockOFF!

Posted by: garrett at April 05, 2011 11:46 AM (QPhZk)

39 I like my posts better than Monty's. My posts are happy things, made of apple-blossoms and starshine.

Monty's posts are all dolphins in the guillotine.

Posted by: ace at April 05, 2011 11:46 AM (nj1bB)

40 "The last thing I want to see is a debt crisis with Obama in office." ~Paul Ryan
^He's referring to a default

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 11:46 AM (UO6+e)

41
In software development, we occasionally use a delivery methodology
called Scrum (some of you may know about it). One of its main selling
points is that it is iterative development with a usable product at the
end of every single iteration.

It would have been nice if they'd tried that sort of approach with the Stimulus and Obamacare.

Posted by: geoff at April 05, 2011 11:48 AM (Fj/WG)

42 Monty's posts are all dolphins in the guillotine.

Posted by: ace at April 05, 2011 11:46 AM (nj1bB)

Logistically, guillotining a dolphin seems...awkward. Not to be picky or anything.

Posted by: joncelli at April 05, 2011 11:48 AM (RD7QR)

43 Monty's posts are all dolphins in the guillotine.
Fuck You Dolphin!, and Fuck a You, Whale!

Posted by: Japanese PM at April 05, 2011 11:48 AM (QPhZk)

44 Monty's posts are all dolphins in the guillotine.


A picture of that would be more palatable than his hideous demon-cat selections.

Posted by: Waterhouse at April 05, 2011 11:48 AM (YvNBz)

45 I don't follow. All the projections are percentages of the GDPs for
those years. The question is when to we return to 62% of GDP.

Then it's a labeling issue for the gray line. Or it's my brain.

Is Ryan's plan 'perfect'? Of course not. Is it better than the status quo? Is it a responsible path forward for our children's children? Yes. When you get David Brooks out of his NYT hidey-hole to declare it "...the standard of seriousness for anybody who wants to play in this discussion" you may well be on the right track.

Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at April 05, 2011 11:48 AM (BvTwT)

46 I like my posts better than Monty's. My posts are happy things, made of apple-blossoms and starshine.
...more like apple cores and Starburst wrappers.

Posted by: garrett at April 05, 2011 11:49 AM (QPhZk)

47 I like my posts better than Monty's. My posts are happy things, made of apple-blossoms and starshine. Monty's posts are all dolphins in the guillotine.
Posted by: ace

Perhaps, but with him we get plenty of 'tuna' fish.

Posted by: Blue Hen at April 05, 2011 11:49 AM (6rX0K)

48 We'd be more than willing to raise the tax rate on Trump if it will help Jeter get more sleep.

Posted by: NYT Editorial Bored at April 05, 2011 11:50 AM (kb0wl)

49 where's the WI elections thread?

Posted by: momma at April 05, 2011 11:50 AM (penCf)

50
Then it's a labeling issue for the gray line. Or it's my brain.

Since all the debts are ratioed to the GDPs for their corresponding years, and all we're interested in is getting back to the FY10 ratio, I think the line is OK.

Posted by: geoff at April 05, 2011 11:51 AM (Fj/WG)

51 Ryan's plan isn't needed -- QE3 will solve the problem.

Posted by: Ed Anger at April 05, 2011 11:51 AM (7+pP9)

52 Screw those dolphins, man. Lording it over everyone like that. Arrogant bastards. Is it awkward to guillotine a dolphin? Yes. So why do it? Because that's how much I hate them.

Posted by: Monty at April 05, 2011 11:53 AM (4Pleu)

53 There is something on the front page here that keeps the site in perpetual 'loading' mode. Anyone else having that happen?

Posted by: Tami at April 05, 2011 11:53 AM (VuLos)

54 Posted by: geoff at April 05, 2011 11:48 AM (Fj/WG)

Yes, yes it would. Of course, neither of those were designed to produce a working product at any stage, so you would have violated one of the principles of Scrum right off the bat...

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 11:54 AM (8y9MW)

55 Fuck those dolphins, man. Lording it over everyone like that. Arrogant bastards. Is it awkward to guillotine a dolphin? Yes. So why do it? Because that's how much I hate them.
Posted by: Monty

Come back to the water. Come on back onto my turf. We'll see how tough you are... Crap; it's time for the matinee... I'm out.

Posted by: Flipper at April 05, 2011 11:54 AM (6rX0K)

56 $700 Billion Dollars moves out of this country every single year for foreign oil.

Drill all that oil here and tax it at 20%. That's an extra $140 Billion that stays right here.

Make corporate taxes lower to bring back foreign branches of American companies. More taxes here and more jobs here. Then tighten up some tax loopholes to make even less attractive to move companies offshore.

Give tax breaks to foreign companies for moving here.

In other words, kick this economy in the ass and start competing globally. We have a robust enough economy even when it is as sluggish as it is right now to wipe out deficits much sooner if we just started competing for our own business.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at April 05, 2011 11:54 AM (f9c2L)

57 There is something on the front page here that keeps the site in perpetual 'loading' mode. Anyone else having that happen?

Not I.

Posted by: The Duck at April 05, 2011 11:55 AM (8y9MW)

58 paul ryan was in the bush adminstrationsupported his tarp +hardlined policies,sad tea party dont realize this fact- he is not new

Posted by: maliheh at April 05, 2011 11:56 AM (EEHkr)

59 Mr Doom, me, steps in from the political side of things. Forget the economics. It is not the little things we do now that count. 2012 is everything.

As I said in another thread, Ryan's plan is a wake-up call to TeamObama, akin to what Scott Walker and the R-led statehouse in WI did there. It aroused the opposition to unite and play whatever hardball is necessary to win in the future.

And that is exactly what we are seeing now. The Rs have no unity on this, no common thread, no one writing the must-do marching orders, and certainly no compliant press corps on their side.

Posted by: HackedTheHubble&Looking@U at April 05, 2011 11:56 AM (4sQwu)

60 I like my posts better than Monty's. My posts are happy things, made of apple-blossoms and starshine.





Monty's posts are all dolphins in the guillotine.







Posted by: ace
--------
I fart skittles in your general direction!

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at April 05, 2011 11:57 AM (f9c2L)

61 Trump in 2012!

Posted by: Trump in 2012! at April 05, 2011 11:57 AM (xs5wK)

62 paul ryan was in the bush adminstrationsupported his tarp +hardlined policies,sad tea party dont realize this fact- he is not new
Posted by: maliheh
Supposedly Obama was new. And that didn't work out so well for us.

Posted by: Flipper at April 05, 2011 11:57 AM (6rX0K)

63 I'm an independent, and I'm intrigued by Ryan's proposal. If it would just get implemented, then maybe more can be worked on later as the public gets comfortable with the realities of his proposal -- no, it isn't a quick, ideal fix, but it's something and it can be built upon. It will be easier and less risky to do this than go full bore (which sounds like a good idea, but hasserious potential risks). Get the economy in better condition, and then address more of the deficit.
I'd love to see Ryan's plan tied to a sturdy foreign policy (I was very much pro-wot, but the way it's being conducted is bleeding us and accomplishing very little -- we either change up the game plan there or we continue bleeding, literally and economically; that can't stand).

Posted by: unknown jane at April 05, 2011 11:57 AM (5/yRG)

64 paul ryan was in the bush adminstrationsupported his tarp
+hardlined policies,sad tea party dont realize this fact- he is not new

Attacking the messenger.

How original.

Posted by: Slublog at April 05, 2011 11:58 AM (0nqdj)

65 Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at April 05, 2011 11:54 AM (f9c2L)

One of the things Democrats tried to bash on Gov. Perry with early (2000-ish) was that he was globe trotting all the time. Then they saw the Texas economy start booming as he managed to bring companies by the truck-full to Texas- including branches of foreign companies.

He doesn't do that quite as much anymore, but one of the reasons we're among the strongest State economies is all that additional productivity and revenue.

I just wish the rest of America understood that.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 11:58 AM (8y9MW)

66 Great post geoff. Thanks so much.

*cuts self.

Posted by: Car in at April 05, 2011 11:58 AM (qIC+p)

67 The thing i like about the ryan plan and video is that its more of a moderate tap to the balls than a tap on the shoulder to somebody not paying attention. Maybe the vid will go viral and the charts will finally get it thru peoples thick heads.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at April 05, 2011 12:00 PM (Z1jiu)

68 Come back to the water. Come on back onto my turf. We'll see how tough you are... Crap; it's time for the matinee... I'm out.

Posted by: Flipper at April 05, 2011 11:54 AM

I got this, kid.

Posted by: Tilikum at April 05, 2011 12:01 PM (2pEj7)

69 on a sports message board political thread I read a guy who said Obama actually lowered federal spending compared to Bush and that this years deficit is mostly social security, medicaid, medicare
It's difficult hearing that there are people out there who really are that stupid, even when you know it to be true.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 05, 2011 12:01 PM (SY2Kh)

70 Then they saw the Texas economy start booming as he managed to bring companies by the truck-full to Texas- including branches of foreign companies.He doesn't do that quite as much anymore, but one of the reasons we're among the strongest State economies is all that additional productivity and revenue.I just wish the rest of America understood that.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther)

We should start a dead pool for when Illinois loses Caterpillar.

Posted by: Blue Hen at April 05, 2011 12:01 PM (6rX0K)

71 Posted by: maliheh at April 05, 2011 11:56 AM (EEHkr)

Is this supposed to be trolling? If so, it's a really sad example.

Presuming it is not, however...

Many people who I otherwise respect agreed that TARP was necessary. I disagreed then, and disagree now, but I respect them enough otherwise to allow that they were making what they thought was the best decision- good intentions and honor do not always prevent mistakes.

Further, Rep. Ryan has been pushing budgetary matters, and especially entitlement reform, for a long time. To attempt to paint him as a big tax and spender because he- like so many others- thought TARP was necessary to prevent total economic collapse is absurd.

However, if this was an attempt at trolling...

FOAD.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 12:02 PM (8y9MW)

72 paul ryan was in the bush adminstrationsupported his tarp
+hardlined policies,sad tea party dont realize this fact- he is not new


Posted by: maliheh

Not "new"? "New" is all the rage! "New" is all I care about! "New is "Now"!But then again, I do have my nead ALL the way up my ass.

"Not new" - What a stupid fuck.

Posted by: Dang at April 05, 2011 12:02 PM (TXKVh)

73 Again, what grim vision this?
Blood-stained tomb, beer cans, and piss.
This is no life...
For a GOD!
Is this my fate?
Trapped for all time?
Is it too late?
The only thing worth living for - escape!

Posted by: Oderus Urungus at April 05, 2011 12:02 PM (Le37f)

74 19, http://tinyurl.com/yj9jat2

You can read the whole thing, but that link is to the summary for SS.

I understand this plan today he put out is not the same thing, but still it shows there are plans out there. I think it is a credible plan as well.

Posted by: Dan at April 05, 2011 12:03 PM (mXBxH)

75 Posted by: Blue Hen at April 05, 2011 12:01 PM (6rX0K)

I take 3 months after Rick Perry manages to head that direction.

Did I mention that Cleburne, TX has a steel mill and steel recycling plant?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 12:03 PM (8y9MW)

76 http://tinyurl.com/yj9jat2

link to ryan roadmap section on SS

Posted by: Dan at April 05, 2011 12:03 PM (mXBxH)

77 Yep, it's a cool plan and yes, it doesn't go far enough.

The main aspect in which it doesn't go far enough is this: Ryan says "this is what we can do," not "this is what we're gonna do come Hell, high water, or a fuckwit President."

If we all could keep a job by talking about our "plan" and showing nifty charts, there would be no unemployment. That's not how it goes in the Real World (i.e. outside D.C. and the Blogoshpere).

I got plans. You got plans. All God's chillun' gots plans.

Does anyone here know how to pay a grocery bill or mortgage payment with a plan? All the stores and banks I've seen or heard of want, you know, real money.

Posted by: Machine Gun Joe Viterbo at April 05, 2011 12:03 PM (Ulu3i)

78 A broader question for you morons. A sort of devil's advocate question.

No matter who is elected in 2012, no matter what we do now, a Sudanese-style ratio of public debt to GDP is nearly inevitable. Wait, did I say Sudanese? Not Japanese? Well, Sudanese public debt is far less than Japan's as a percent of GDP. Sudan is close to 100%. A third world hellhole? Well, Belgium's is about 100% as well. And Belgium is no hellhole (apart from the filthy Belgians). Neither is Singapore, at just over 100%. We will likely see our public debt hit 100% of GDP in a few decades. The Japanese seem to do fine with their much higher debt. So why worry? Their current figure is about 225% of GDP.

Seriously, if Japan can apparently survive and marginally prosper with this, what does public debt even mean? It hasn't made them into a third world nation. Zimbabwe has a public debt of 149% of GDP, far less than Japan. There ought to be dire consequences to such debt. It seems impossible that there aren't. Where are they?

Tell non-moron people about the Japanese Lost Decades and they will look at Japan. They will see an advanced industrial society with lots of cool toys, fashion trends and sexbots, and think "they don't look lost to me." The only thing that bunches their panties is hysteria about a broken nuclear plant after a tsunami. Non-morons would say public debt is no problem, given how pleasant life in Japan has been for fifty years.

How would you convince non-morons that public debt is even an issue? We can say we have to pay off our own personal debts (although that is less and less true with strategic defaults and bankruptcy ads on the radio), and it's no different for the government. However the sky is not falling in Belgium or Singapore. Brussels is lovely this time of year.

What patented day of reckoning can we offer as a contemporary, real example of the perils attached to enormous public debt? Don't say Greece or Ireland; you can still take a nice vacation there and see lovely things. Their people still eat dinner, sleep, watch TV, occasionally work, fight and screw and have homes and raise kids.

Short of Youtube videos of riots and carbecues or photos of kids with flies on their faces, how do you convince people that there is a debt crisis at all? I keep returning to this question: If you can fly to place X and have a lovely holiday with fine food and friendly service and you know many who do so, how do you expect to convince the Great Moderate Middle that titanic public debt in place X even matters?

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:04 PM (AZGON)

79 He'sgoing to speak about the finer details of his budget in a few minutes.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 12:04 PM (UO6+e)

80 The main aspect in which it doesn't go far enough is this: Ryan says "this is what we can do," not "this is what we're gonna do come Hell, high water, or a fuckwit President."

Unfortunately, he doesn't get to say that. Even if the entire Republican caucus fell in line behind this plan (here's hoping) there's the Senate and the President to consider. This is a starting position. It's the strongest beginning to negotiations that I've seen from the Republicans since I can't remember when. But when Ryan says "this is what we can do," that's the best he's going to be able to give you.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 12:05 PM (8y9MW)

81 - Great read. I am looking forward to implementing this concept of friend retrieval. Thanks pariuri sportive

Posted by: nsanyi23 at April 05, 2011 12:06 PM (wblEI)

82 At long last, a concept of friend retrieval!

Posted by: joncelli at April 05, 2011 12:07 PM (RD7QR)

83 At long last, a concept of friend retrieval!*

*Actual friend retrieval available at additional cost.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:09 PM (AZGON)

84 According to Politico, The Hill, and other sources,the Republicans as a whole*said no to further cuts and entitlement reforms. As it is, Politico is always teasing about these appropriators and others within the party who are squirming about having to embrace this. They don't want it, it's too much for them, but they're going to pretend they like if they public gets behind it. However, they're not going to embrace further cuts and reforms until they see this works, because they want to keep their seats.
*Since there were those arguing for more.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 12:09 PM (UO6+e)

85 who needs friend retrieval? why did you let them get away in the first place.......you haven't heard of "chain of love"?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at April 05, 2011 12:10 PM (eOXTH)

86 Seriously, if Japan can apparently survive and marginally prosper with this, what does public debt even mean?

Japan has a huge personal savings rate and Japan lives by selling to us. Also, Japan was the first to go to 0% (long, long ago). As the US monetary and financial situations weaken, you will see that Japan will suffer greatly. We don't have that same luxury - just as European socialist health systems live off of the R+D of our health system, so we can't become Euros, since we won't have anyone to draft off of.

When interest rates rise back up to late 70s/early 80s levels, Japan won't be able to service its 200% debt and we won't be able to service our 100%. There will no longer be any choices at that point.

We are currently in the eye of the storm.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 05, 2011 12:11 PM (G/MYk)

87 Yep.

Posted by: that guy that always thinks we're boned at April 05, 2011 12:11 PM (GTbGH)

88 Every single American (who votes) needs to see this. Link it, post it on fakebook, e-mail it. Get the message out! Well done, Geoff.

Posted by: doc at April 05, 2011 12:12 PM (AtQf8)

89 Short of Youtube videos of riots and carbecues or photos of kids with flies on their faces, how do you convince people that there is a debt crisis at all? I keep returning to this question: If you can fly to place X and have a lovely holiday with fine food and friendly service and you know many who do so, how do you expect to convince the Great Moderate Middle that titanic public debt in place X even matters?
Posted by: George Orwell
So your question is "how do we impart these problems so that the Great Moderate Middle understands and embraces the issue and its severity"?
Use your analogy. Look at all the places that are "nice to visit but I wouldn't want to live there". Focus on San Franciso, a place where it's nice to be a hipster or a bum, but not raise a family. Note that the list of places that are nice to visit only is growing. Hammer home the fact that we are exaserbating this problem. Focus on Detroit. Focus on Japan, where it is increasingly hard to raise children, and for those children to enjoy even the same standard of living.

Posted by: Blue Hen at April 05, 2011 12:12 PM (6rX0K)

90 Preaching to the choir. But nothings going to happen with the Senate and White House in Democrat control. The gubmint will shut down, the Dems and MSM will demogogue it and bye bye Republicans in 2012.

Posted by: eeyore at April 05, 2011 12:13 PM (mka2b)

91 I didn't lose my friends; they deserted me. It probably has a lot to do with the economy -- at least that's my take on things. Not only does nobody want to personally make sacrifices (it's fine for other people, but not them personally), they also don't want to even hear about it -- and that, imho, is one of the big problems confronting the country right now. Too many people want and partakechampagne on a beer budget -- including our government.

Posted by: unknown jane at April 05, 2011 12:14 PM (5/yRG)

92 Ryan's Plan: Necessary But Not Sufficient
So, do we have an operational definition of what IS sufficient? And a rationale for why it is sufficient? What's the target, and why?
Also, what is really, honestly, on the table here? What portions of economic activity/productive capacity, currently consumed by the state, will we allow to be idled? Let's not pretend that cutting government consumption now is going tobe without negative economic consequences.Unemployment will spike higher, since private consumption has not recovered and will not any time soon. Also, in what way will dollars be removed from the system (tax)? We are going to have to be serious about deciding what government consumption will be permitted and where the dollars will be removed from the system once they are created by spending. The Left's answer is always the same - no government consumption is ever to be ended, andtake dollars from the "rich"while inflating to take from everyone. We don't have the luxury of such a simplistic and widely appealing answer. We better make sure whatever we plan to do is going to work in the long run. Otherwise we'll do little more than bring the collapse upon useven faster.
I think political capital is better spent on accomlishing growth first, then cutting later. If we can't fix the energy problem and spur private employment, the obsession with the deficit will be pointless. We must getthe cost of inputs down, and the rate of employment up, before cutting.Deficitcutting, and the attendant pain, is only valuable now if we can blame it all on Obama. Sincethe Republican's can't manage to sell any part of their agenda, I figure the odds of that are slim.

Posted by: Reactionary at April 05, 2011 12:14 PM (xUM1Q)

93 The Path to Prosperity: Restoring America's Promise

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 12:16 PM (UO6+e)

94 "on a sports message board political thread I read a guy who said Obama
actually lowered federal spending compared to Bush and that this years
deficit is mostly social security, medicaid, medicare."

Funny, On a sports message board I read a guy who said
The Yankees will win the AL only to be swept in four by St.Louis in the series.

The similarities are eerie...

Posted by: Random sports fan on a political site at April 05, 2011 12:18 PM (72Nk7)

95 Ryan's Plan fails to factor in "Obama's Stash."

Posted by: USA at April 05, 2011 12:18 PM (YZISw)

96 This post and this chart should be EVERYWHERE.

Please do what you can, guys. This is huge.


Posted by: lauraw at April 05, 2011 12:18 PM (h90Z0)

97 The gubmint will shut down, the Dems and MSM will demogogue it and bye bye Republicans in 2012.

Posted by: eeyore at April 05, 2011 12:13 PM (mka2b)
If that's really how America is, these days, then there's nothing left to save. It's time to find out where America really wants to go. We have the most amazingly transparent liar in the White House (there has NEVER been anyone even close to B Hussein), the only one who has ever actually hated our nation and culture, and clearly the dumbest person to ever sit in the Oval Office. The Dems in Congress are only slightly less toxic. If not now, when?

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 05, 2011 12:18 PM (G/MYk)

98 92 Good points -- although I think at this point we're going to have to do the growth and the cutting almost simultaneously; plus get serious with our foreign policy (that's not helping our economy and our deficit either).

Posted by: unknown jane at April 05, 2011 12:19 PM (5/yRG)

99 Awww, it looks like Paul Ryan is sporting some sharp pants creases. From Davd Brooks:

Ryan was a protg of Jack Kemp, and Kemps uplifting spirit pervades the document. Its not sour, taking an austere meat ax approach. It emphasizes social support, social mobility and personal choice. I dont agree with all of it that Ive seen, but it is a serious effort to create a sustainable welfare state to prevent the sort of disruptive change were going to face if national bankruptcy comes.
It also creates the pivotal moment of truth for President Obama. Will he come up with his own counterproposal, or will he simply demagogue the issue by railing against savage Republican cuts and ignoring the long-term fiscal realities? Does he have a sustainable vision for government, or will he just try to rise above the fray while Nancy Pelosi and others attack Ryan?
Paul Ryan has grasped reality with both hands. Hes forcing everybody else to do the same.

Posted by: He Who Gaffs at April 05, 2011 12:19 PM (ihSHD)

100 @86

I accept everything you say.

When interest rates rise back up to late 70s/early 80s levels, Japan won't be able to service its 200% debt and we won't be able to service our 100%.

What exactly will that look like? How abstract will that be? I also accept that this will happen.

Hammer home the fact that we are exaserbating this problem. Focus on Detroit. Focus on Japan, where it is increasingly hard to raise children, and for those children to enjoy even the same standard of living.

All good points. However, very few people would likely accept that Japan is a bad place to raise kids. It sounds very safe and orderly to most of us. That doesn't mean that you are not correct. The notion that it is increasingly hard for the Japanese to maintain their high standard of living is not something many are likely to believe, unfortunately. And that sort of disbelief is the problem.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:20 PM (AZGON)

101 95 Ryan's Plan fails to factor in "Obama's Stash."
Posted by: USA at April 05, 2011 12:18 PM (YZISw)

Yeah, it would be pretty boss to be able to throw the unused part of the stimulus at the debt.

Posted by: joncelli at April 05, 2011 12:21 PM (RD7QR)

102 But when Ryan says "this is what we can do," that's the best he's going to be able to give you.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 12:05 PM (8y9MWOkay, this is true. But, given reality -- again, outside of D.C. and the babbling heads who incessantly mull over every word and check every poll before thinking for themselves -- what does that get us?Nada.I'm not arguing with you. But I still have to wonder what good the Pence Plan is going to be when we achieve our version of the Glorious Paradise that is Zimbabwe?I'm just frustrated because I have enough trouble dealing with my own dwindling economy while people who live fat off the crumbs they extort from us can't/won't do what they are supposed to do, which is keep the country safe and healthy.

Posted by: Machine Gun Joe Viterbo at April 05, 2011 12:21 PM (Ulu3i)

103 Ryan Paul!

Posted by: TexasJew at April 05, 2011 12:23 PM (QK1rf)

104 The Bernank will connect his printing press to a breeder reactor and all will be Candyland forever.

Posted by: TexasJew at April 05, 2011 12:26 PM (QK1rf)

105 Great post, Geoff. Worth the wait. Big question for me is do we bite into this or hold out for a bigger bite? I like crunching numbers, but this kind of stuff is not my area... I'll trust folks like you to keep squawking about it. Hugs, Geoff... and hug your lovely wife for me too.

Posted by: Cathy at April 05, 2011 12:26 PM (jVzcR)

106 I'm ready for this

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2011/04/please-do-not-show-this-photo-to.html

Posted by: USA at April 05, 2011 12:26 PM (YZISw)

107 @106

My GDP just exploded.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:28 PM (AZGON)

108 private accounts.


I'd have to see a public flogging for the @#$%^ who are already looking to take 401ks. And my Dads favorite chestnut, How do you keep em from fucking the stock market up then too.


Posted by: Dave at April 05, 2011 12:30 PM (fm5yr)

109 Drill all that oil here and tax it at 20%. That's an extra $140 Billion that stays right here.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at April 05, 2011 11:54 AM (f9c2L)
Uh... no.

Posted by: TexasJew at April 05, 2011 12:30 PM (QK1rf)

110 Naw, it looks great, Geoff. Moving the labels to the right of the plotlines makes it easier to focus.

Posted by: S. Weasel at April 05, 2011 12:30 PM (mzcUB)

111 When interest rates rise back up to late 70s/early 80s levels, Japan won't be able to service its 200% debt and we won't be able to service our 100%. ----What exactly will that look like? How abstract will that be? I also accept that this will happen.
Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:20 PM (AZGON)
It will look like inflation.How big that inflation will beis hard to guess.
Neither the US nor Japan is revenue constrained, since they can produce as many yen or dollars arenecessary. Money is spent first, and bonds issued after to drain reserves - not the other way around.The only reasons to borrow moneyare to manipulate interest rates and provide for the public's demand for savings.
The problem is that if they do not remove enough currency from the system after spending it, that creates an oversupply of the currency and inflation sets in. The extrareserves of cash have to bedrained. The usual method for such a drain is taxation.

Posted by: Reactionary at April 05, 2011 12:31 PM (xUM1Q)

112 Plus, we have people (of every political/ideological stripe, that's important to realize) whose response to "we're saddling our kids.." is: well, I don't have any kids and/or my kids are grown up and out of college, so I don't care about somebody else's damn kids (again, a pretty much verbatim quote I have heard).
They simply do not or refuse to see that what happens to "somebody else's damn kids" does effect them -- they just don't. They don't care if the country goes into the shitter as long as they get to keep on joyriding -- they are just going to keep ignoring the problems and "enjoying life" until reality busts through their door. Everybody else has to make the sacrifice: welfare recipients, the rich, the military, businesses, old people, young people, unions, private sector employees, minorities, white people...everybody but them, because they "deserve" the lifestyle they have right now (in fact, they feel entitled to more), and quite a few of them (again, from every professed political/ideological stripe) don't believe they should have to sacrifice any of their wants...not even to put into personal savings. And everybody but them is lumped into a category and depersonalized -- that seems to be where our public mindset is (among a frighteing number of people), and that is where we could end up on the ash heap of history at this rate.

**yeah, I kinda got my eyes opened the past few weeks

Posted by: unknown jane at April 05, 2011 12:32 PM (5/yRG)

113 @102-what does that get us?

It gets us time, at least theoretically.

Check out Lee Stranahan's page (I think he's coming over to the Right Side) today. He talks about what the Right needs to do to start making inroads on the PR front of our political battles. I don't agree with his exact prescription, but I think his diagnosis is pretty close.

Given that we (virtually) always lose the PR battle, we have to fight battles we can win. At this point, we need an Agincourt before we can negotiate a Treaty of Canterbury, and we need a Treaty of Canterbury before we can proceed to reclaim our rightful holdings- in our case, true Federalism, small government, and personal freedom and responsibility- as opposed to Harry V's claims to much of France.

This may not be our much needed Agincourt, but it's the best chance I think we've had in a long, long time, and our best bet before the house of cards collapses.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 12:33 PM (8y9MW)

114 Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:20 PM (AZGON)

The main--and really, it should be the most obvious--place the Japan comparison breaks down is that, frankly, we aren't Japanese. They have a much more orderly and homogenous culture--they'll just quietly work and bear up under it to the bitter end, as need be. We...won't. We might have once, maybe a hundred years ago, but culturally I think we bankrupted long ago, and now the rest is simply following suit. We'll screw around, we'll put off the hard work past where it would do any good, we'll default, and the whole thing will collapse into a stinking, flaming heap.

Closer to apples-to-apples would, sadly, be Greece, and even then they still have the Euro safety net that's holding off the inevitable. Once Germany bails on that system you'll have your counterexample.

Posted by: City of New Orleans at April 05, 2011 12:34 PM (GBXon)

115 The teal line is bunk and unrealistic. 21% of GDP is unsustainable and not realistic. Government has never been able to raise such rates for anything more than a year or so, regardless of the tax rates used.

Any plan that requires raising additional revenues is deceptive, because the politicians will never cut spending that additional amount, they will simply spend it. It's spending cuts or bust.

Posted by: Brian G. at April 05, 2011 12:34 PM (+3ddn)

116 106: This stimulus may last considerably longer than four hours. If only because it means a certain long national nightmare would be over...

Posted by: City of New Orleans at April 05, 2011 12:38 PM (GBXon)

117 http://tinyurl.com/cshn9t

Sounds fishy to me Ace.

Posted by: Dave at April 05, 2011 12:38 PM (fm5yr)

118 This should just be part A of the plan. Part B is "unleash the economy". When the economic engine is allowed to run unimpeded, it runs well...every time.

Posted by: BigDaddy1964 at April 05, 2011 12:40 PM (pOcKt)

119 Given that we (virtually) always lose the PR battle,
we have to fight battles we can win.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 12:33 PM (8y9MW)
We only lose PR battles because of the Vichy Right who take the left's talking points and attack conservatives. Since that is the case, it isn't the battle that matters but those who are ostensibly on "our side". Speaking of which, that Vichy douche Lady Lindsay is on Fox right now.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 05, 2011 12:41 PM (G/MYk)

120 ...but with any luck, I'll be able to change socks more regularly.

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord at April 05, 2011 12:41 PM (GBXon)

121 Still it appears that Ryan's plan doesn't really cut anything in 2012. All these cuts are "promised" down the road????

Posted by: Vic at April 05, 2011 12:42 PM (M9Ie6)

122 The main--and really, it should be the most obvious--place the Japan comparison breaks down is that, frankly, we aren't Japanese. They have a much more orderly and homogenous culture

Perhaps partially true but the problem with that argument is it looks like the following argument: "Socialism works fine, you just have to have the right kind of people."

--

What exactly will that look like? How abstract will that be?
--
It will look like inflation. How big that inflation will be is hard to guess.

That is what I expect, but it isn't happening. Deflation gripped Japan for years, and we haven't had much price inflation yet (price spikes in the last few weeks may alter that prognosis), just inflation of currency. It seems to be sitting in major and central bank balances and doing nothing.

Any of you read Mish's place? Monty mentions it.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:45 PM (AZGON)

123 122
The main--and really, it should be the most obvious--place the Japan
comparison breaks down is that, frankly, we aren't Japanese. They have a
much more orderly and homogenous culture





Perhaps partially true but the problem with that argument is it looks
like the following argument: "Socialism works fine, you just have to
have the right kind of people."


Ah, but notice that wasn't what I said. In fact it just means that they grind down to the last without exploding--the end comes with a whimper, so to speak. We'll go out with a bang long before.

Even the 'best case' isn't that great, unless you're a fan of long, slow declines to oblivion.


Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord at April 05, 2011 12:50 PM (GBXon)

124 BTW - I will denounce myself - I worked with Paul a long time ago at Empower America (and I believe over at the Vin Weber group) - so I can't say anything bad about him.

Posted by: Jean at April 05, 2011 12:53 PM (WkuV6)

125 Ah, but notice that wasn't what I said. In fact it just means that they grind down to the last without exploding--the end comes with a whimper, so to speak

I see your point. Sounds correct. However I recall reading or hearing something lately about how fantastically brutal Japanese society was until very recently, i.e., pre-WWII. Not just by way of militarism but socially as well.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:55 PM (AZGON)

126 We only lose PR battles because of the Vichy Right who take the left's
talking points and attack conservatives. Since that is the case, it
isn't the battle that matters but those who are ostensibly on "our
side".

That's true. Maybe I should have compared to Braveheart... but he lost in the end.

Perhaps partially true but the problem with that argument is it looks
like the following argument: "Socialism works fine, you just have to
have the right kind of people."


And the fact is that Socialism does work fine, once you have the right kind of people. The problem is that the right kind of people are bees. Or ants.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 12:56 PM (8y9MW)

127 For anyone still listening, N'Awlins has a point. If Germany decides to take its ball and go home, that will be a heavy blow. It is not nearly so easy for Germany to extricate itself as you may think, however.

Thanks for all of you responding to my questions.

What drives me nuts is "Where is that dropping shoe?" How is it this Fiscal Farce: The World Tour keeps playing?

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:58 PM (AZGON)

128 And the fact is that Socialism does work fine, once you have the right kind of people. The problem is that the right kind of people are bees. Or ants.


LOL because for years I've been telling myself that the Left's vision of mankind's future is an ant colony.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:59 PM (AZGON)

129 Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 12:55 PM (AZGON)

Well... for a given definition of brutal. Their isolationist policies put them far behind the game, as it were, until... the 1600's? I think that's right. Anyway, that means that while Europe was in its Elightenment/Industrial Revolution, Japan was still in its Feudal/Medieval period.

Society was very, very uncompromising- moreso even than European Medieval societies. But that same brutality was used to, to some extent, impose order. Even peace, as long as all you mean by that word is "absence of war."

Post WWII, they were very, very influenced by American cultural mores, and their society has adapted accordingly.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 01:00 PM (8y9MW)

130 And the fact is that Socialism does work fine, once
you have the right kind of people. The problem is that the right kind
of people are bees. Or ants.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 12:56 PM (8y9MW)
Actually, socialism can work fine in a stagnant, zero-growth society. It is growth and dynamics that kill centralized systems. If there's no growth or major change in society, then cetnralizing power and planning doesn't really affect anything and provides some efficiency in the centralization. Of course, Western civilization is based on growth and advancement - as opposed to, say, Chinese culture, which is based on stability above all. And any society that doesn't grow and advance, dies, as nature moves in on the stagnant world and tears it to shreds.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 05, 2011 01:01 PM (G/MYk)

131 Even peace, as long as all you mean by that word is "absence of war."

That's the only definition that interests the Left.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 01:02 PM (AZGON)

132 LOL because for years I've been telling myself that the Left's vision of mankind's future is an ant colony.

It is, in many respects. Except it's the old notion of the ant colony (before we understood them better) wherein the "queen" controls the hive and all the other ants are her subjects.

Which is why, of course, Socialism fails in Humans- we're inclined toward hierarchy, and Socialism (that works) would require uniform equality. In a real ant colony, the queen doesn't "rule" the hive, she's mostly just a breeder.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 01:02 PM (8y9MW)

133 (Japanese) Society was very, very uncompromising- moreso even than European Medieval societies.

Sort of makes you wonder, given the swift change in Japanese society between say 1920 and 1950, if such a change can happen again, in reverse.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 01:03 PM (AZGON)

134 "Where is that dropping shoe?"

Does anyone ever know the answer to that question.

Posted by: MarkC at April 05, 2011 01:04 PM (yPPVC)

135 Socialism (that works) would require uniform equality. In a real ant colony, the queen doesn't "rule" the hive, she's mostly just a breeder.

Besides, I'd rather not have an exoskeleton made of fingernail-like protein and I don't relish spending my day pushing around a crumb from a Twinkie, twice my size.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 01:06 PM (AZGON)

136 As to pre- and post-WWII benchmarks...I've suspected for some time that none of the nations involved in the World Wars came out quite the same. Traumatic experiences never quite recovered from, and all that...

That being said, you'll see Japanese suicide rates climb as the end approaches. Their birth rate is already below replacement--unless something extraordinary happens in the very near future, Japan as we know it is a dying nation, one way or another. Before they revert to what they were, you would literally have to cripple every nation in their vicinity, and I don't consider that terribly likely. (Though honestly, China isn't nearly in the kind of shape the Friedmans of the world would like to think...)

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord at April 05, 2011 01:08 PM (GBXon)

137 If I hear another democrap talk about "extreme" cuts while ignoring the obvious EXTREME SPENDING my head is going to explode.

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at April 05, 2011 01:08 PM (pdRb1)

138 (Though honestly, China isn't nearly in the kind of shape the Friedmans of the world would like to think...)

Mish Shedlock would agree with you. They look far more likely to collapse than Japan.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 01:10 PM (AZGON)

139 I don't know. I'm actually getting to be a big fan of Chinese ghost cities. They're like the world's largest pieces of performance art. Very underappreciated.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 05, 2011 01:13 PM (G/MYk)

140 Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 01:03 PM (AZGON)

Ask me when people start ignoring the decrees of the Japanese government that they don't get to carry weapons.

...and I don't relish spending my day pushing around a crumb from a Twinkie, twice my size.

Maybe, but wouldn't it be cool to be able to?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 01:13 PM (8y9MW)

141 ...and I don't relish spending my day pushing around a crumb from a Twinkie, twice my size.

Maybe, but wouldn't it be cool to be able to?

Not recommended for diabetic ants.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 01:15 PM (AZGON)

142 ...and I don't relish spending my day pushing around a crumb from a Twinkie, twice my size.
Maybe, but wouldn't it be cool to be able to?

If I had a crumb twice my size, that Twinkie would kill every diabetic within a 50 mile radius.

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord at April 05, 2011 01:15 PM (GBXon)

143 Excellent work, Geoff. I'm going to pass this link around, and urge others to do likewise. People who are just waking up to the suggestion of a shutdown need to see why its necessary to draw a line and make a stand. This explains it as well as any I've seen.

Posted by: Snort! at April 05, 2011 01:16 PM (K/USr)

144 Nothing will be sufficient until there is a GOP Senate and POTUS.
And the Left wont be the only ones caterwauling, clueless conservatives will too.
I'll hold my breath for Jim DeMint's plan or Michelle Bachmann's plan, but I dont think "lower taxes, smaller government RINOS suck" is a plan.

Posted by: swamp_yankee at April 05, 2011 01:21 PM (ZIpcL)

145 Actually, I think America would have some chance of long term prosperity if all we did was adopt Ryan's long term budget.

It would by much easier to prosper if we also reformed entitlements, but it was very wise to leave Social Security aside for the time being.

I also think we shouldn't expect the right's case to get weaker if Ryan gets his way. Sure, it will be a bit less urgent, but as Ryan's budget led to a much more stable economy, he would have much more influence over the moderates about the entitlement crisis.

It's good to note to conservatives that we're not going to pretend this fight is finished if we win this one (very difficult) battle, and Ryan agrees with that.

Posted by: Dustin at April 05, 2011 01:32 PM (Q3nWV)

146 By the way, you know what is disgusting about Google and Youtube? What is the reason they are making you "sign in" to view the "inappropriate" video "Obama - Building a Religion?"

This content may contain material flagged by YouTube's user community that may be inappropriate for some users

Do not speak ill of the King.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 01:42 PM (AZGON)

147 Well, wrong thread at 146. Too many tabs. Sorry morons.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 01:43 PM (AZGON)

148 oof, sorry, I thought this was a Monty post. My bad.

Good post, geoff.

Posted by: ace at April 05, 2011 01:50 PM (nj1bB)

149 Linked by Instapundit. Congrats!

Posted by: USA at April 05, 2011 02:00 PM (YZISw)

150 The best if not only way of of the mess, not counting Weimar-Third World hyperinflation and debt default (The DNC-Obama Plan), is to increase economic growth dramatically. Oneobvious way to do that is exploit our world-leadingpetroleum reserves now that the prices are spiking. ANWR, CNG, shale, the lot.That could give usbreathing space to get to the next thing.
Structural cuts inopen-ended government liabilities are necessary but not sufficient to revive the economy.

Posted by: Beagle at April 05, 2011 02:03 PM (sOtz/)

151 If you like this financial clusterfuck, you can keep this financial clusterfuck.

Posted by: Barack FNinsane Obama at April 05, 2011 02:07 PM (YVZlY)

152 But but but.......THE OCEANS!!!!!! They're receding or something.........GOREBULL WARMING!!!!!

WE must FOLLOW THE ONE OVER THE CLIFF!!!!!

Posted by: Sponge at April 05, 2011 02:09 PM (UK9cE)

153 this guy is the biggest fucking baby on the planet
we have and agreement? really? back to the 73 billion? that's sooooooooooo not 100 million and it sure as hell ain't 4.4 TRILLION

Posted by: phoenixgirl at April 05, 2011 02:09 PM (eOXTH)

154 Crushing Debt. The new American birthright, courtesy of Reid, Pelosi and Obama.

Posted by: USA at April 05, 2011 02:10 PM (YZISw)

155 4.4!!!!!

Posted by: phoenixgirl at April 05, 2011 02:11 PM (eOXTH)

156 He's on the TV now talking about the meetings with the GOP on the budget today. I'm not listening because it's painfully obvious now that everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie.

Joke for the next generation: How do you know Obama is lying? His lips are moving.....Bada bum TISHHHHHH!!

Posted by: Sponge at April 05, 2011 02:12 PM (UK9cE)

157 SUCKER! YOU SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE DEAL LAST MONTH!!!!

Posted by: phoenixgirl at April 05, 2011 02:12 PM (eOXTH)

158 Well, we're DOOMED if we do and DOOMED if we don't...

Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 02:12 PM (OlN4e)

159 Joke for the next generation: How do you know Obama is lying?

He's breathing.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:13 PM (AZGON)

160 he seems a little bit upset.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at April 05, 2011 02:14 PM (eOXTH)

161 Thanks, Barry. Gas is now $4.18 at the nearest station.

Posted by: Chuckit at April 05, 2011 02:14 PM (vc2cu)

162 the numbers are making my head spin.

Posted by: dananjcon at April 05, 2011 02:15 PM (pr+up)

163 Some incredible lib screaming here at Salon:
"What's next? Mercy killing? Imagine, in that vein, being condemned to death because you're poor. And 'Rayon' Ryan just keeps tugging along with his moocher's salary. He's so anti-government it's amazing he's even in the government in the first place.
Maybe when 'Rayon' Ryan dies, we'll be able to enfold him in the Nazi flag."
Read the rest-- it's justa taste of what the conservative Republicans are up against in the fight to pass this budget.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 02:15 PM (UO6+e)

164 Add to # 158 for completeness: DOOM!

Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 02:16 PM (OlN4e)

165 Prediction: If the GOP manages to stick to this budget plan, look for a Madison-style occupation of the House chambers, and the Capitol police may not prevent it. It depends on how hardcore the Capitol policemen's union is.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:18 PM (AZGON)

166 121 Still it appears that Ryan's plan doesn't really cut anything in 2012. All these cuts are "promised" down the road????
My understanding is that budget billsprovide a number but Appropriations actually takes those numbers and does something with them. The budget is being marked-up by the Rules Committee tomorrow, so barring a shutdown they should start carving out specific cuts by next week.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 02:18 PM (UO6+e)

167 WHERE WAS THIS GUY LAST MONTH? A MONTH LATE AND TRILLIONS SHORT!!!!!!

Posted by: phoenixgirl at April 05, 2011 02:19 PM (eOXTH)

168 Let's face it, we're screwed. I'd love to see Ryan's plan implemented in full, but these idiots in Congress can't even agree to cut 61 billion from the current budget, and that's just a drop in the bucket. I'll be shocked if anything close to his plan gets passed. Most of these politicians probably can't balance their checkbooks, let alone the US budget, and I believe many of them simply don't care.

Posted by: Paul Carboni at April 05, 2011 02:20 PM (kwp8Z)

169 Caught BO's speech at the tail end. He was pissed. Now the CNBS flacks are saying how great BO is. They are saying the president agreed to their initial number and since they didn't jump on that and demanded more then the American people can place the blame squarely on the Republicans.

Santelli, "the president is very bold, cause when he had both houses, where was the budget?" Good question rick.

Boner's on now.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 02:23 PM (k1rwm)

170 Boner looks like hell, and BO looks tanned and rested.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 02:24 PM (k1rwm)

171 Most of these politicians probably can't balance
their checkbooks, let alone the US budget, and I believe many of them
simply don't care.

Posted by: Paul Carboni at April 05, 2011 02:20 PM (kwp8Z)
Don't ever think they don't care. Remember the Republican's starve-the-beast strategy, which they pursued with their usual determination? The Dems coopted that strategy, only the opposite way around: run up huge deficits until you can say that the only way out is to jack up taxes on everybody. And they executed their strategy a lot better than the Republicans executed theirs.But hey, you go to war with the retarded assholes you have, right?

Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 02:25 PM (McG46)

172 Barry obfuscates and deflects and never is he asked the question, why didn't your co-partiers do their jobs last year?

Posted by: huerfano at April 05, 2011 02:26 PM (2pEj7)

173 Thanks, Barry. Gas is now $4.18 at the nearest station.
Posted by: Chuckit at April 05, 2011 02:14 PM (vc2cu)
Peggy Joseph weeps.

Posted by: Cicero at April 05, 2011 02:26 PM (QKKT0)

174 "we will continue to insist that the policy riders passed in HR 1 are on the table it's just as important to some of our members as the cuts"

"we are going to continue to fight for the largest cuts possible"

Now the CNBS flacks will keep cheerleading BO.


Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 02:26 PM (k1rwm)

175 Boner looks like hell, and BO looks tanned and rested.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 02:24 PM (k1rwm)
To be fair, BO spends all his time tanning and resting.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 05, 2011 02:27 PM (TpXEI)

176
Boner looks like hell, and BO looks tanned and rested.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 02:24 PM

Boehner may be actually working. Barry shot a 148 86 on Sunday.

Posted by: huerfano at April 05, 2011 02:27 PM (2pEj7)

177 Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 02:15 PM (UO6+e)
Interesting point of view he has there. If dangerously angry and feeling entitleda point of view.

Posted by: Beagle at April 05, 2011 02:27 PM (sOtz/)

178 santelli calling bullshit on the idea that funding the government a week at a time will make our foreign debt holders lose confidence in the country. (BO said this). It isn't evident in the bond market, so WS isn't buying the BS.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 02:28 PM (k1rwm)

179 Caught BO's speech at the tail end. He was pissed.

If this is correct and people see that, this is very, very good. If we can make him angry, petulant, pissed off, he will start to collapse.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:29 PM (AZGON)

180 the idea that funding the government a week at a time will make our
foreign debt holders lose confidence in the country. (BO said this)

Gee, Barry, what about borrowing 40% of the money the gummint spends? Do foreign debt holders take Skittles as payment?

Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 02:31 PM (McG46)

181 177 Interesting point of view he has there. If dangerously angry and feeling entitleda point of view.
You can find many more where those came from, too. The DCCC plans to run ads against 50 Rsstating that they (the Rs) have enabled the destruction of the welfare state. Lots of screaming about how this is the end ofprogressivegovernment as we know it.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 02:31 PM (UO6+e)

182 You can find many more where those came from,
too. The DCCC plans to run ads against 50 Rsstating that they (the Rs)
have enabled the destruction of the welfare state. Lots of screaming
about how this is the end ofprogressivegovernment as we know it.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 02:31 PM

If only we had such luck.

Posted by: huerfano at April 05, 2011 02:32 PM (2pEj7)

183 Lots of screaming about how this is the end ofprogressivegovernment as we know it.

I think several of our politicians need to review the definitions of "Bug" and "Feature."

Rush was playing soundbites, while I was out at lunch, from some Democrat idiot (didn't catch who, though) crying about the idea of Block Grants replacing the current Medicaid structure, and how that would give the Governors all the power over Medicaid. My thought was- "and this a complaint?"

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 02:34 PM (8y9MW)

184 When cowboy poetry funding is one of the sticking points..... I'm thinking there is a white line above the blue line that we can't see.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at April 05, 2011 02:34 PM (Z1jiu)

185 182 If only we had such luck.
I think the idea of it from someone who is respected for being brilliant and a serious thinker scares them. So it doesn't matter than this budget doesn't have force of law and that much of it won't get enacted; they are frightened of even the very idea from a credible source and they're going to fight it to the last.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 02:35 PM (UO6+e)

186 You can find many more where those came from,
too. The DCCC plans to run ads against 50 Rsstating that they (the Rs)
have enabled the destruction of the welfare state. Lots of screaming
about how this is the end ofprogressivegovernment as we know it.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 02:31 PM

Good. It's time to quit trying to finesse this. Put it squarely in front of the electorate. If they make the right decision, good, if they don't, it's time to start collecting survival gear.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 02:36 PM (McG46)

187 179
Caught BO's speech at the tail end. He was pissed.





If this is correct and people see that, this is very, very good. If we
can make him angry, petulant, pissed off, he will start to collapse.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:29 PM (AZGON)
The very first thing before Erin Burnett went to Harwood and Santelli was to say "he's angry, the president seems very angry"

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 02:36 PM (k1rwm)

188 and how that would give the Governors all the power over Medicaid.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 02:34 PM (8y9MW)
This is the problem liberals have with reining in gummint. It's the loss of power.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 02:38 PM (McG46)

189 Ryan's plan is a start. It's not perfect, but it is necessary.

Posted by: Adjoran at April 05, 2011 02:39 PM (VfmLu)

190 hahhah JIm thinks the anti trust department "has taken ambien".

See price fixing which is why they are getting together and buying the price cutters since the department is focused on a few companies...

like the one google wants to get rid of? Seems this has happend before when one company with an ear in the government wants to eliminate the competition.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 02:39 PM (k1rwm)

191 There is a bifurcation becoming more and more evident. There are two kinds of people. Those who think it's proper and necessary in life for government to pay for lots of your stuff, and those who don't. AllenG's comment brought this to mind. Merely moving monies from federal control to state control makes the first group lose their cookies. Imagine what reducing gubmint monies will do to the mental balance of the first group.

This really is looking like a division of thought and sentiment as profound as we had in 1850. If this blog were Stale Air, I would now be banned.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:39 PM (AZGON)

192 psst....over here....got gold?

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at April 05, 2011 02:40 PM (Z1jiu)

193 FUBAR. - I agree 100%. It just amazes me that we're running and projecting trillion dollar deficits for the next 10 years, yet BO and many in Congress don't see anything wrong with that. I just hope I'm not around when the financial chickens come home to roost.

Posted by: Paul Carboni at April 05, 2011 02:42 PM (kwp8Z)

194 And any society that doesn't grow and advance, dies, as nature moves in on the stagnant world and tears it to shreds.
Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 05, 2011 01:01 PM (G/MYk)
If this is so, why are the Muz still around?
Had the West undergone cultural (not technological)ossification somewhere between 1880 and 1910, the world would be an immeasureably better place.
Nature doesn't prey on backward cultures - other cultures do. Those with strength of will. Those will a sense of purpose. We've had plenty of "progress" and "change" over the last few generations, and yet we continue to slip down the drain.

Posted by: Reactionary at April 05, 2011 02:42 PM (xUM1Q)

195 179 Caught BO's speech at the tail end. He was pissed. If this is correct and people see that, this is very, very good. If we can make him angry, petulant, pissed off, he will start to collapse.
Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:29 PM (AZGON)
Yes, I used to catch rattle snakes with my bare hands. I would start by angering and badgering the snake. Get him to strike at me (you had to be quick to make this work). Then after several angry strikes, I would distract his sensors with the heat from my open palm, whilst working the other hand around behing his head very slowly, closer and closer while still being aware of the fangs on the other hand. When the time was right, I would simply grab him by the head and he was mine. The GOP should employ this same strategy on Zero.

Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 02:43 PM (OlN4e)

196 There is a bifurcation becoming more and more
evident. There are two kinds of people. Those who think it's proper
and necessary in life for government your neighbors to pay for lots of your stuff, and
those who don't. AllenG's comment brought this to mind. Merely moving
monies from federal control to state control makes the first group lose
their cookies. Imagine what reducing gubmint monies will do to the
mental balance of the first group.

This really is looking like a division of thought and sentiment as
profound as we had in 1850. If this blog were Stale Air, I would now be
banned.
Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:39 PM (AZGON)
FIFY.Just want to reassure all you Yanks who have no sympathy for the Confederacy: you are welcome to come down with us and fight against government overreach. No grudge will be held, no I-told-you-sos will be told.We're all rebels now.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 02:45 PM (McG46)

197 Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 02:43 PM (OlN4e)

Where I come from, we didn't mess with that. You just got out the pistol (a .22 or .38 were fine) and shot the sumbich. Of course, I think that makes for a very different metaphor...

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 02:46 PM (8y9MW)

198 Just want to reassure all you Yanks who have no sympathy for the
Confederacy: you are welcome to come down with us and fight against
government overreach. No grudge will be held, no I-told-you-sos will be
told.

Well, speak for yourself on the "I-told-you-sos." The rest holds, though.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 02:47 PM (8y9MW)

199 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 02:46 PM (8y9MW)
Yeah, but my method was a lot sportier.

Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 02:47 PM (OlN4e)

200 Yes, I used to catch rattle snakes
with my bare hands. I would start by angering and badgering the snake.
Get him to strike at me (you had to be quick to make this work). Then
after several angry strikes, I would distract his sensors with the heat
from my open palm, whilst working the other hand around behing his head
very slowly, closer and closer while still being aware of the fangs on
the other hand. When the time was right, I would simply grab him by the
head and he was mine. The GOP should employ this same strategy on Zero.

Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 02:43 PM (OlN4e)
Pffft....piker. I let them bite me....and then I smack the shit outta 'em.

Posted by: Honey Badger at April 05, 2011 02:47 PM (VuLos)

201 I would start by angering and badgering the snake. Get him to strike at me (you had to be quick to make this work).

Unfortunately Boehner isn't so quick on the fly when he's dabbing the tears from his eyes.

Seriously, if the GOP can make and keep Barry angry by exercising their prerogatives as the House of Reps, this will hurt him with voters. Angry doesn't sell to the big audience. Message to the GOP: Exercise your prerogatives. Forget "playing nice." Demand your rights as the majority party in the House. The Dems always do.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:48 PM (AZGON)

202 yet BO and many in Congress don't see anything wrong
with that. I just hope I'm not around when the financial chickens come
home to roost.

Posted by: Paul Carboni at April 05, 2011 02:42 PM (kwp8Z)
Yeah, what pisses me off is that they're allowed to be so blatantly...hypocritical doesn't cover it. Spend more money than anybody in the history of the world, then bash your opponents for not being fiscally responsible. Come the apocalypse, I'll be hunting reporters too.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 02:48 PM (McG46)

203 Obama told Congress to "act like grown-ups"? I don't even know where to begin with criticizing that.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 02:49 PM (UO6+e)

204 Great column Geoff,
I came for DOOM! and there was none. This'll do.
I was talking with my aunt in the United States about this and mentioned that the US racked up $5 TRILLION in debt in three years!! $5 FREAKING TRILLION!!! Her response: "Obama had a lot of problems when he came in. Bush left him with 2 wars which weren't free..."
As to George Orwell's post about other nations, once everything comes down in a ball of flames, no nation is going to be immune from DOOM! DOOM will be everywhere. Things are going to be the most severe, and potentially violent, in the countries where people rely on the government most and the bottle is ripped from their suckling lips. Societies where the government doesn't coddle people cradle to grave, without massive government bureaucracies, without outrageous debt levels should display lesser symptoms of DOOM. You can't miss what you was never injected into your veins leaving you with the ever increasing need and desire for that next beautiful fix from sugar Daddy government.

Posted by: Canadian Infidel at April 05, 2011 02:49 PM (GKQDR)

205 Yes, I used to catch rattle snakes with my bare hands. - maddogg at April 05
I used to push a garden hose down a likely hole and pour a bit of gasoline down the hose. If a rattlesnake was down there, it would come out so pissed it would stand on it's tail. Then I would blast it with a shotgun.
Bounty on the rattles at the time was enough to interest a kid. Bounty on Jack Rabbits at the time, also.

Posted by: trainer at April 05, 2011 02:49 PM (Rojyk)

206 and like the sun coming up, the retarded liberal democrats(BIRM) trot out the same tired, bullshit arguments they've been trotting out for decades about this plan killing off the poor and indigent.


just a thought, aren't these the same pile of assholes that didn't even put a budget up for debate last year?

Posted by: Unclefacts Luxury-Yacht at April 05, 2011 02:49 PM (6IReR)

207 Demand your rights as the majority party in the House.

Not "Demand." Simply "exercise." And make sure you use that phraseology every time you're attacked for so doing.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 02:50 PM (8y9MW)

208 Obama told Congress to "act like grown-ups"?

This from the same flatworm who tapped his Harvard education to use the phrase "wee-wee'd up?"

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:50 PM (AZGON)

209 Not "Demand." Simply "exercise."

Ha! I just thought the same thing after I pressed the post button.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:51 PM (AZGON)

210 This from the same flatworm who tapped his Harvard education to use the phrase "wee-wee'd up?"

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:50 PM (AZGON)
You mean there could be another Obama around somewhere? Pour salt on him, don't cut him up.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 02:51 PM (McG46)

211 @192 Heigh-Ho silver!

Posted by: Lizbth at April 05, 2011 02:52 PM (JZBti)

212 I used to push a garden hose down a likely hole and pour a bit of gasoline down the hose. If a rattlesnake was down there, it would come out so pissed it would stand on it's tail. Then I would blast it with a shotgun.
Bounty on the rattles at the time was enough to interest a kid. Bounty on Jack Rabbits at the time, also.
Posted by: trainer at April 05, 2011 02:49 PM (Rojyk)
At 4 bucks a gallon for gas , the bounty would have to be a bit higher now days I'll wager.

Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 02:53 PM (OlN4e)

213 just a thought, aren't these the same pile of assholes that didn't even put a budget up for debate last year?

Yes, and that should be a major talking point. Every time someone brings up how "extreme" the Republican position is, we need to say something along these lines:

"The Ryan Plan for Prosperity is a starting point. It represents what we hope to come away from the table with after negotiations. However, we understand there will be negotiations- some of what we propose will be dropped, some will be modified. However, we are submitting this budget as a core function of the House, which is something the previous Congress could not even bring itself to do. If Democrats have specific problems with specific proposals, that's fine; we expect that. But bring ideas to the table. Ideas, not talking points."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 02:53 PM (8y9MW)

214 At 4 bucks a gallon for gas , the bounty would have to be a bit higher now days I'll wager.

Ammonia might do the same thing.

If you are a scuba diver and you cheat, you dive with a squeeze bottle of ammonia solution and squirt it into holes hiding lobsters. They come right out. Rather unsporting, and illegal too.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:55 PM (AZGON)

215 Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 02:53 PM (OlN4e)

I've never done it, but I've heard that kerosene works just as well. And you don't have to use very much (I had a friend who did this when I was a kid. He'd use about a cup or so of kerosene).

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 02:55 PM (8y9MW)

216 TeamObama is going to use Alinsky tactics, and it is going to get really shitty really fast.

"Extreme" was the word to use last week, and we'll see what this week's is going to be very soon. Maybe they will recycle the one from last week.

The fucking republicans had better find a way to use this the way it ought to be used, and quickly, or else all will be lost. And I do not hold out hope for them. It has been proven in Madison, in Wisconsin, in Indiana, and too many other places, that when it comes to the kind of messaging and trench warfare and nastiness needed to win something like this, they are losers. Pushovers.

Posted by: HackedTheHubble&Looking@U at April 05, 2011 02:56 PM (4sQwu)

217 Politico keeps leaking information from Republican lawmakers who don't want to touch the entitlement side of this budget with a ten-foot pole.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 02:57 PM (UO6+e)

218 To get serious for a minute: anybody care to guess how long it will actually take to get any kind of agreement on cutting entitlements? If health care took a year, and it didn't even take anything away from anybody right away? Cutting entitlements is going to take a whole lot away from a whole lot of people.
And if it takes more than two years, it'll take more than one Congress. But hey, I'm confident that a new Congress wouldn't start over, but would smoothly and competently take up where the previous Congress left off.
I'm just going to predict that we're boned. We will not make significant cuts voluntarily. They will only be made when they are imposed on us.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 02:57 PM (McG46)

219 Politico keeps leaking information from Republican lawmakers who don't want to touch the entitlement side of this budget with a ten-foot pole.

They will play that up big time. Emphasis will be on "scaring the seniors" and "starving the poor children."

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 02:59 PM (AZGON)

220

Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 02:43 PM (OlN4e)
Are you saying The Won is rattlesnake or just that you could distract him with your warm palm?....while we sneak up behind him

Posted by: ontherocks at April 05, 2011 03:02 PM (HBqDo)

221 "you know the budget fight is getting down to the wire when the president of the US show up unexpectedly"...lead in to BO quote on ABC radio news...

too funny....


Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:02 PM (k1rwm)

222 Yes, I used to catch rattle snakes with my bare hands. - maddogg at April 05
I show them my cock.
The females pass out.
The males just give up.

Posted by: Pat Fucking Caddell at April 05, 2011 03:03 PM (hki9w)

223 Howzabout:
* Cutting business taxes and regulations.
* Exploring for energy, on- and offshore.
* Charging foreign countries (e.g., Europe) for all money expended in their defense.
* Controlling access the U.S. market, by mercantilistic countries like China.
* Keeping out illegal aliens, who burden America taxpayers by wasting educational, social welfare, and penal institutions.
* ...
I could go on, but I have a life.

Posted by: PacRm Jim at April 05, 2011 03:04 PM (yow1m)

224 Yes, I used to catch rattle snakes with my bare hands.

Integrity prevents me from revealing my affairs with the rattlesnake in question, but let's just say I left my sting.

Posted by: Will Folks at April 05, 2011 03:05 PM (AZGON)

225 I haven't forgotten that the republicans begged off repealing obamacare by saying that the money was set and factored in already. this is exactly what's happening in NY. Of course cuomo doesn't have to increase taxes, it was already done by the previous guys, he's got plenty of money to play with and he looks like a hero. He isn't it was pre built in. The property tax bills alone are unbelievable this year and the state tax is bordering on criminal.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:05 PM (k1rwm)

226 And yet President Warhock McSpendypants is still in office, and is looking to return!

Can anybody even imagine the laughter/terror that would result if a corporate CFO yanked budgeting numbers out of his ass like these and presented them to the board with that stupid beatific look McSpendypants seems to have on his face all of the time?

Posted by: Fritz at April 05, 2011 03:06 PM (FaFnu)

227 To get serious for a minute: anybody care to guess how long it will actually take to get any kind of agreement on cutting entitlements?
It just won't happen.
The state will collapse and be nominally replaced by one populated by the same people, like post-Soviet Russia, that doesn't recognize the obligations of its predecessor. So they get all the money, and you get boned.
That's best-case. I'd lay odds on something more Hitler-y.

Posted by: oblig. at April 05, 2011 03:07 PM (xvZW9)

228 219 They will play that up big time. Emphasis will be on "scaring the seniors" and "starving the poor children."
These moderate and liberal Republicans are almost as bad as the Dems on this. The leadership held-out for several months on addressing entitlements in the budget and they've been making noise about it for some time. So they'll begrudgingly and gingerly fight for these reforms, but they will run the moment the heat gets to be too much. At the end of the day, it might just be Budget, some RSC members, a few members of the leadership, and a few others strongly fighting for this change. But what else should I expect from them when only 13 members of the 111th endorsing the Roadmap?

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:08 PM (UO6+e)

229 OMG, those are the two choices, Sam the Power or Eric from Google? We are so boned.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:09 PM (k1rwm)

230 Obama told Congress to "act like grown-ups"? I don't even know where to begin with criticizing that.
Howzabout, "Hey, dipshit. Adults can balance their checkbooks. Your little kids in Congresslast year didn't even submit a budget! Do you run your household that way?"
The stupid coming from him is starting to hurt.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at April 05, 2011 03:09 PM (d0Tfm)

231 Can anybody even imagine the laughter/terror that would result if a corporate CFO yanked budgeting numbers out of his ass like these and presented them to the board with that stupid beatific look McSpendypants seems to have on his face all of the time?

See: "Dot Bomb Companies"

Plenty of people believed in that. Sadly.

Posted by: Will Folks at April 05, 2011 03:09 PM (AZGON)

232 225 I haven't forgotten that the republicans begged off repealing obamacare by saying that the money was set and factored in already...
ObamaCare is defunded in the budget.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:10 PM (UO6+e)

233 @231
My socks need changing.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 03:10 PM (AZGON)

234 We haven't heard from nanny P. Is she still in the hospital in Italy getting her face lifted off her boobs?

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:10 PM (k1rwm)

235 Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:10 PM (UO6+e)

what about all that money that michelle bachman keeps bringing out and saying is part of obamacare and that it can't be touched and how clever they were in making it stick so well it can't be touched.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:11 PM (k1rwm)

236 Obama told Congress to "act like grown-ups"? I don't even know where to begin with criticizing that.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 02:49 PM (UO6+e)
The only way it could be more ironic is if he had made that statement on vacation in Brazil.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 05, 2011 03:12 PM (TpXEI)

237 I was personally offended that he brought up head start. Why not defund planned parenthood and use that money for head start?

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:12 PM (k1rwm)

238 But what else should I expect from them when only 13 members of the 111th endorsing the Roadmap?

Oh sweet fuckall. I forgot about that. Only 13.

The stupid coming from him is starting to hurt.

It started to really hurt after the first "Reverend Wright" speech. It's been Hellraiser pain from there on out.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 03:12 PM (AZGON)

239 I'm just going to predict that we're boned. We will not make significant cuts voluntarily. They will only be made when they are imposed on us.
Yep, pretty much.
There's an outside chance that- if the Republicans make big gains in the Senate and beat Obama in 2012- that we could start seeing major changes in 2013, after which we lose the Senate (and possibly the House) in 2014. Restart the boning process, rinse, repeat.
Eventually we run out of money, it becomes more difficult and expensive to borrow, and we achieve DOOM. Then and only then- when most voters start feeling the pain- will anything truely change.
Alexis de Tocqueville had it right 175 years ago when he said "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the publics money."

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 05, 2011 03:13 PM (SY2Kh)

240 237 I was personally offended that he brought up head start. Why not defund planned parenthood and use that money for head start?
Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:12 PM (k1rwm)
Head Start is a proven dismal failure. A complete waste of money.

Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 03:14 PM (OlN4e)

241 I was personally offended that he brought up head start. Why not defund planned parenthood and use that money for head start?
Posted by: curious

Silly wingnut. If we und Planned parenthood properly, we won't have to spend money on Head Start. That's called enlightened fiscal planning.

Posted by: I decide who lives and who dies, but I'm from the government, so it's cool at April 05, 2011 03:15 PM (6rX0K)

242 Alexis de Tocqueville had it right 175 years ago when he said "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the publics money."


That's MY money, whitey.

Posted by: Peggy Joseph at April 05, 2011 03:15 PM (AZGON)

243 I was personally offended that he brought up head start. Why not defund planned parenthood and use that money for head start?

Why not defund both?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:15 PM (8y9MW)

244 I've been hearing way too much lately that people are moving to Singapore and places in South America where there is a stable democratic government cause they "don't want to be around for the collapse". I mean some people are renouncing their American citizenship so they don't have to pay taxes. Apparently it's a booming business all of a sudden.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:15 PM (k1rwm)

245 I was personally offended that he brought up head start. Why not defund planned parenthood and use that money for head start?

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:12 PM (k1rwm)
Only one concept at a time, please. Planned Parenthood OR Head Start. Not both.

Posted by: Any Ol' Politician at April 05, 2011 03:15 PM (McG46)

246 235 what about all that money that michelle bachman keeps bringing out and saying is part of obamacare and that it can't be touched and how clever they were in making it stick so well it can't be touched.
I'll try to find that out when I get home and can read the entire thing.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:15 PM (UO6+e)

247 I was personally offended that he brought up head start. Why not defund planned parenthood and use that money for head start?
Defund them both. Head Start has been shown time and time again to be ineffective. It's another feel-good "for the children" program that exists only because it's politically unpopular to do so.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 05, 2011 03:16 PM (SY2Kh)

248 Sorry to post a question and run, but it is family day so technically I 'm not supposed to be on the computer.


How are the WI elections doing? Anyone, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

(I can keep this thread up and walk by and refresh it, so technically, I'm not on the computer.

Thanks!

Posted by: momma at April 05, 2011 03:16 PM (penCf)

249 It's another feel-good "for the children" program that exists only because it's politically unpopular to do so defund it.
Fixed for clarity.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 05, 2011 03:18 PM (SY2Kh)

250 "Deficits don't matter."

- Dick Cheney

Posted by: Trigger at April 05, 2011 03:18 PM (J+2TZ)

251 Full budget: The Path to Prosperity: Restoring America's Promise
The pg is full of links, comparison/contrasts, key facts summary, etc.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:18 PM (UO6+e)

252 Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:15 PM (k1rwm)

Do you have a list of all of those places? And specifically which ones are "First World?"

I'd like to do some research...

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:18 PM (8y9MW)

253 Defund them both. Head Start has been shown time and time again to be ineffective. It's another feel-good "for the children" program that exists only because it's politically unpopular to do so.
Posted by: Hollowpoint
This here proves that Rethuglicans, especially the ones in Wisconsin, do not care about children. Without this, many children do not eat at all! That's whyI and my fellow teachers called out sick and protested against heartless Rethuglican policies. Which resulted in the schools being closed. Which resulted in the kids not being fed.

Wait.......never mind.

Posted by: Wisconsin teacher of the year at April 05, 2011 03:19 PM (6rX0K)

254 The Round Mound of Fiscal Soundness has the right idea: Zero Based Budgeting. Every department has to prove why it needs to exist every year. No proof, no money.
That would solve a lot of our problems, which is why it will never geta fair hearing. Wouldn't need the politicians then, now would we?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at April 05, 2011 03:20 PM (d0Tfm)

255 "Deficits don't matter."- Dick Cheney
Posted by: Trigger

"Deficits and long term debt are not the same thing. And stop drooling".
Macroeconomics professor

Posted by: Blue Hen at April 05, 2011 03:21 PM (6rX0K)

256 234 We haven't heard from nanny P. Is she still in the hospital in Italy getting her face lifted off her boobs?
She tweeted this:
The #GOP Ryan budget is a path to poverty for America's seniors children and a road to riches for big oil

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:21 PM (UO6+e)

257 The #GOP Ryan budget is a path to poverty for America's seniors children and a road to riches for big oil

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:21 PM (UO6+e)
That's gotta be a record for getting the most cliches in one tweet.

Posted by: Tami at April 05, 2011 03:22 PM (VuLos)

258 Ryan/Rubio 2012

Posted by: the forgotten man at April 05, 2011 03:22 PM (yd08d)

259 Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:21 PM (UO6+e)

Okay, but nothing that wasn't already on her computer's clipboard?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:22 PM (8y9MW)

260 @256
Seriously, Miss 80s? That's her less-than-140-characters comment?

Man, she is one empty tool sack. Apart from the silicone and botox. You can recycle those.

Posted by: Peggy Joseph at April 05, 2011 03:23 PM (AZGON)

261 The gold bugs are dancing in the streets:

Gold Settles at Record high above $1452

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6cxx655

Posted by: Shecky Obama at April 05, 2011 03:24 PM (RD7QR)

262 And we get the first sock fail of the day.

Posted by: joncelli at April 05, 2011 03:25 PM (RD7QR)

263 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:18 PM (8y9MW)

well, this is just people I know. Some are moving to China too which I'm not too happy about and Canada. They are all lib/dems who work on wall street or in corporations. With a computer you can work anywhere. A big hedge fund guy sold his manhattan apt. for a record amount and went off and I'll be damned I can't remember his name but I'll ask my friends if they can. He went to Singapore which is where a lot of people are going.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:25 PM (k1rwm)

264 Here's Pelousi's latest Twitter dropping:



#GOP Path to Poverty budget eliminates guaranteed benefits for seniors under Medicare http://is.gd/LEmuZp #GOPvalues


Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at April 05, 2011 03:25 PM (9hSKh)

265 Okay, but nothing that wasn't already on her computer's clipboard?

It must be a macro in her version of Word.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 03:25 PM (AZGON)

266 Nazi Pelousi tweets,
The #GOP Ryan budget is a path to poverty for America's seniors children and a road to riches for big oil
When is someone going to tell Her Highness that a lot of Americans hold oil stock in their retirement portfolios? Of course, she'd have to be able to comprehend that fact, so...
Nevermind.
Stupidity should bepainful. She'd be on a morphine drip.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at April 05, 2011 03:26 PM (d0Tfm)

267 Posted by: Trigger at April 05, 2011 03:18 PM (J+2TZ)

"If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?"

-Vince Lombardi

That quote has about as much relevance to this discussion as the one you pulled up.

Posted by: Slublog at April 05, 2011 03:26 PM (0nqdj)

268 That's gotta be a record for getting the most cliches in one tweet.

Maybe in one tweet, but not in one place. Check out "The Perfect Country Western Song."

Warning, linky goes to DU- but only the page that has the lyrics of that song. It just happened to be the first link Gargle found.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:26 PM (8y9MW)

269 I'm nothing if not a failure at socks.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 03:26 PM (AZGON)

270 The #GOP Ryan budget is a path to poverty for America's seniors children and a road to riches for big oil

Nancy's tweet did continue, in a postscript (known in Twitter speak as a twat)
That path does not pertain to the children we plan to abort with the Planned Parenthood money, or any campaign funds that Dems may receive from BP or other benevolent petroleum companaies.

Posted by: Blue Hen at April 05, 2011 03:26 PM (6rX0K)

271 Ryan should propose a 50% pay cut along with staff for all members of the legislative branch. Then tell Pelosi to suck her own silicone based chest tumors.

Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 03:28 PM (OlN4e)

272 Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:25 PM (k1rwm)

I think some of the South American nations are pretty capitalist friendly, but I like my modern plumbing...

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:28 PM (8y9MW)

273 259 Okay, but nothing that wasn't already on her computer's clipboard?
As Rush pointed-out, they really have nothing but tired clichs. They can't really attackRyan on the numbers or go after him much personally, and he covered all his bases, so this is what they have left. The sad thing is that it actually might work.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:28 PM (UO6+e)

274 Stupidity should be painful. She'd be on a morphine drip.

From her performance as Speaker, I'd say she was on a 24/7 morphine drip with a Macallan chaser. Since 2006.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 05, 2011 03:28 PM (AZGON)

275 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:28 PM (8y9MW)

I just heard a story from a friend about an ex pat that she knows who went into the embassy to renounce his citizenship and the embassy employee apparently said that she used to get very few of these and now they are getting a lot more. But I hesitate to say stuff that is hearsay....like the everyone is leaving stuff, I know of two people personally and the rest you hear about but it's still hearsay. But, it's tough to hear it none the less. I agnrily said to someone "what don't you love this country enough to stay and make sure it gets back on sure footing". he was a little surprised, I think I even surprised myself, and he really had no answer, one of his friends abruptly and immediately changed the subject.

Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:32 PM (k1rwm)

276 Heritage has written a piece about the budget:
Paul Ryan's Budget Resolution Changes Course
It lists some elements of the budget that haven't been discussed much in the blogosphere. Their chief complaint is that he didn't more vigorously address Social Security in this budget.*
*Though he did in the Roadmap

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:33 PM (UO6+e)

277 The #GOP Ryan budget is a path to poverty for continued funding of VIP flights for my entire family at the expense of the peasantry

Posted by: I am Nancy's twat at April 05, 2011 03:33 PM (6rX0K)

278 What a sweet, sweet dream. Mass numbers of government tit sucking leftards flooding the embassy clamoring to renounce their citizenship and ship off elsewhere, for fear of conservative retribution. Damn, I'm giving myself a diamond cutter....

Posted by: maddogg at April 05, 2011 03:35 PM (OlN4e)

279 The # GOP Ryan budget is a roadmap to downgrading my 737 military jet transport to a 1995 Hyundai with missing quarter panels, this starves kittens and plastic surgeons in Napa Valley

Posted by: Nancy Pelosi on twitter at April 05, 2011 03:36 PM (AZGON)

280 Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:32 PM (k1rwm)

See, I don't begrudge them leaving. The country quit caring about them and their well being (in general) a long time ago. We're now an entitlement/welfare society which places the moochers above the producers. We're no longer a land that believes that "all Men were Created equal." We believe that, by virtue of their lack of virtues, there are certain classes of people who should be "more equal than others."

If I were part of the working affluent (that is, people making that evil 250K+) I'd be looking to leave, too.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:36 PM (8y9MW)

281 Overall, while it's insufficient largely due to the lack of will on the part of the conference, I think they should still fight for every bit of this. It's not going to prevent the coming economic catastrophe, but it would lessen the pain a little if it was to be actually enacted.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:36 PM (UO6+e)

282 "Deficits don't matter."- Dick Cheney

Posted by: Trigger at April 05, 2011 03:18 PM (J+2TZ)
"Deficits are really important."- Barry O.

Posted by: Any Ol' Politician at April 05, 2011 03:36 PM (McG46)

283 Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:15 PM (k1rwm)
Yeah, I'm one of the guilty ones and just needed to air the last week or so before I had my first interview to renounce citizenship. I was looking for any signs that to counteract my belief that the US is boned. Or that the revolution is going to start REALLY soon. Sadly, no. I'm not giving up citizenship to avoid taxes though. I'm giving up citizenship out of fear what the government might try to take from any citizen, in or out of country after I've moved and started a good life. What should scare people, is I've mentioned this fear of the future government being out of control on very pro-American, pro-military blogs and no one's really been jumping forward defending the future US government saying "No, you're crazy. That'll never happen."
Giving up American citizenship - very hard, intellectually, emotionally.
Canadian. Not so much. Screw this socialist utopia and their social engineering. They lost me at human rights commissions. When the boning comes, I want Canada to get the worst brunt of it. Tear the entire system down with no income redistribution in the future.
curious: The lady at the embassy told me she used to get about 1 or 2 cases a year of people to renounce their citizenship. Now she gets about 1 a month. Renunciation becomes effective on the date of your second interviews with the oath being taken. The final papers used to cost $0 but are now $495 and take about 6 months to a year to process now.

Posted by: Canadian Infidel at April 05, 2011 03:37 PM (GKQDR)

284 Posted by: Trigger at April 05, 2011 03:18 PM (J+2TZ)

Trigger. Yeah. I stuffed him so many times the only way he stands is with his hooves nailed down.

Posted by: Roy Rogers at April 05, 2011 03:38 PM (AZGON)

285 The final papers used to cost $0 but are now $495 and take about 6 months to a year to process now.

Posted by: Canadian Infidel at April 05, 2011 03:37 PM (GKQDR)
You have to pay to leave? What if you don't pay?

Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 03:40 PM (McG46)

286 Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 03:40 PM (McG46)

Then you technically remain a citizen, subject to all the duties (but benefiting of none of the Rights) attendant thereto, I'd imagine.

That is, you'd still have to pay your taxes.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:41 PM (8y9MW)

287 I agnrily said to someone "what don't you love this country enough to stay and make sure it gets back on sure footing".
Posted by: curious at April 05, 2011 03:32 PM (k1rwm)
I understand your feelings. But it's getting to the point where America doesn't want people like us. Our fellow citizens don't want to be saved by us, and live the way we think they should. I bear no ill will against those who seek to get out. I'm one of them myself. Each year my vote matters less, because the poeple who oppose my view out number me a little more. Each year they strive to take a little more.All this time, they spit on myvision for adecent society - and should I object I'm looked at asif I were some Victorian prude. Meanwhile my so-called allies are so full of busybodies and do-gooders that it makes me sick to call them compatriots. We can't even handle the muslim problem with a firm hand, for pete's sake.
I'm a lot less worried about deficit spending than I am about social decay and, as Kratos would call it, decadence. I think it's over when it comes to long-term hope. I'd be happier living out my last days near a sunny tropical beach surrounded by poor but friendly and simple folk, in a nation that thinks investment should be encouraged rather than taxed into oblivion.

Posted by: Reactionary at April 05, 2011 03:43 PM (xUM1Q)

288 That is, you'd still have to pay your taxes.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:41 PM (8y9MW)
Good luck finding me in Rio de Janeiro.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 03:44 PM (McG46)

289 Deficits don't matter."- Dick Cheney
Ah, yes- the meme being parrotted by the liberal blogs.
Cheney said it in 2002, which had a deficit under $200 billion, and under $400 billion in FY 2003. I'd still disagree with him, but relatively small deficits don't matter that much.
Now, with a$1600 billion deficit and rising entitlement costs? Yeah, it matters. A lot.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 05, 2011 03:45 PM (SY2Kh)

290 You have to pay to leave? What if you don't pay?
Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 03:40 PM (McG46)
Oh, you'll pay one way or the other. And be advised - they don't have to accept your decision to expatriate. They can decide you make too much, or have too much, and leave you in your IRS-forged chains. Unless you can fabricate a new identity, your bank will cooperate with the US authorities and you'll be taxed.
Even if they do accept it, there is an exit tax for those with high net worth. You have to be a low-worthpuke, like me, to slip out without paying up.

Posted by: Reactionary at April 05, 2011 03:46 PM (xUM1Q)

291 If I were part of the working affluent (that is, people making that evil 250K+) I'd be looking to leave, too.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 03:36 PM (8y9MW)
I'm not, but I want to be. And truthfully Canada and America seem tohate people like that.
As for me, South Korea. unknown jane is right in that I can't run from DOOM. But I'm only going to where I feel the DOOM is going to be felt less. The Koreans work and don't have an extensive welfare state. Public Debt to GDP ratio on usdebtclock is at 23.392% and falling. External Debt to GDP ratio is 41.201% and falling. South Korea has been through a major war in the lifetimes of most of their grandparents, They're still building. There's not a lot of people completely reliant on government going to be rioting in the streets for their dollars when DOOM comes there. They're not culturally suicidal as Western Civ seems to be. So sold...

Posted by: Canadian Infidel at April 05, 2011 03:46 PM (GKQDR)

292
You have to pay to leave? What if you don't pay?
Posted by: FUBAR at April 05, 2011 03:40 PM (McG46)
Then you don't get your final paperwork. I don't know if that has further repercussions, but I want the paperwork. The $495 and any *promises* of future social security benefits are small prices to pay.

Even if they do accept it, there is an exit tax for those with high net worth. You have to be a low-worthpuke, like me, to slip out without paying up.
Posted by: Reactionary at April 05, 2011 03:46 PM (xUM1Q)
Like me too!! Now is absolutely the BEST time for me to be leaving without any hassles later on. I imagine it'd be hell to escape with a high net worth unless you were LITERALLY carrying all that you own and just left.

Posted by: Canadian Infidel at April 05, 2011 03:51 PM (GKQDR)

293 Mika calls Chairman Ryan "a nice boy"
Link also includesthe usual from that nit-wit Debbie Wasserman-Shultz

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 03:53 PM (UO6+e)

294 Here's another plan, homegrown in East Tennessee, Professor Reynolds.



TAX AND ENTITLEMENT REFORM


1. All persons residing in the U.S. shall come together in households for the purpose of reporting all income from any source, each item to be identified by payer's and payee's tax number, and for receipt of federal and state benefits. Members of a household need not be related, need not reside together, and a household may consist of as few as one person.
2. Each year congress shall set by legislation a "minimum wage" and a "tax rate".
3. The following income shall not be subject to taxation:
An amount equal to a year's earnings at the minimum wage rate, for each adult (age 20-65) member of the household, decreasing 10% per year to 50% at age 15, and increasing 10% per year to 150% at age 70.
All payments for what is classified as necessary health care for all members of the household including medical care, any pharmaceuticals prescribed by a recognized health care professional, vision and hearing aids, and membership fees for health-enhancing entities such as gyms or other exercise facilities. Health care insurance premiums may be deducted but not health care expense paid for by such insurance.
All educational expenses including day care for young children or legally incompetent persons, that portion of state and local taxes identified as spent on education, that portion of parochial school tuition, fees and other expenses identified as going for non-sectarian education, tuition, fees and educational materials for private school education at any level, and a per-diem allowance for students traveling more than 50 miles from primary residence for education.
All income saved into an identified account from which investments may be made. All withdrawals from this account for the benefit of any member of the household shall be reported as income to that member.
4. The "tax rate" shall be applied to any income over and above the deductions listed above, regardless of amount.
5. At the request, by legislation duly enacted by any municipality having greater than 100,000 inhabitants or any state, a surtax may be imposed on citizens of that municipality or state which shall be applied in a manner exactly as applied for the Federal tax.
6. For households whose deductions exceed total income, the Federal Government shall make payment equal to the tax rate multiplied by the shortfall in income, as shall municipalities and states.
7. There shall be no federal tax on corporations or other business entities.
8. The Office of Management and Budget shall compute revenues to be expected using the newly set tax rate and minimum wage, applied to the previous year's reported incomes. No expenses in excess of that amount may be authorized or made by the federal government without approval by 75% of each house of Congress.

Your suggestions sincerely requested. E-mail them to tbeebe6535@yahoo.com.

Posted by: tom beebe st louis at April 05, 2011 03:55 PM (rTrMD)

295 I'm one of them myself.
Posted by: Reactionary at April 05, 2011 03:46 PM (xUM1Q)
I didn't know that until now. I've been doing m work and not reading all the posts. You and I understand each other very well.
And the cultural decay is another huge factor in my thinking. Kids born out of wedlock (blacks - 74%, whites - 25%, latinos - 50%). If not cultural suicide, it'll take a toll.
Anyways, I have to get to work. There are plans and goals that need to be implemented if I'm ever to escape Canada.

Posted by: Canadian Infidel at April 05, 2011 03:56 PM (GKQDR)

296 Here is a summary of Federal 2010 finances.

$ 2,200  Federal Tax Revenue (billions)
$ 1,300  Borrowing (the deficit)

$ 3,500  Total Spending
$     0  Total Saving

$14,500  Entire economy (GDP)
  15.2%  Taxes as % of Economy
   9.0%  Borrowing as % of Economy
  24.2%  Total spending as % of Economy

What if (say) Bob's family budget operated like the government, in proportion? That gives a feeling for our situation:

$50,000  What Bob can spend from his income
$29,900  Bob borrows this

$79,900  Bob's spends it all
      60% more than Bob's income
$  1,400  The GOP cut in proportion

The proposed GOP cut in spending of $61 billion is just 1.8%. For Bob, it would be $1,400.

The federal government has made big promises, far above what it will collect in taxes at current rates.

$75,100 billion ($75.1 trillion) is the amount of a fund which would pay for the unfunded part of promised entitlement programs over the next 75 years, if available today and invested at 3% interest. Of course, there is no such fund, so meeting those promises would require immediately increasing tax revenues by 76% to pay off that "mortgage", or those promises will be broken.

Don't take comfort from the 75 year time frame. We are already falling short, being made up by huge borrowings (the deficit). The result of the 75 year analysis is that things will steadily become worse.

Collecting 76% more in taxes might cause or deepen unemployment. Or, increasing tax rates might actually decrease tax revenues if people decided to earn less and pay less. Or, it may be impossible to convince younger people to give up their savings in exchange for the right to charge their children high taxes in turn. I think the promises will be broken.

This problem is huge. The retirees of today and in the future have paid into Social Security thinking that their "insurance premium" will fund part of their retirement. Actually, all of the cash (real resources) has been spent. What remains is only the promise to now tax the non-retired to pay for the retired, at much higher rates. That is not what people thought Social Security would deliver to them.

Promises for Medicare and Medicaid are worse; they are bigger and just as unfunded. What is more kind: to face reality now, or to default on these promises at the last minute?

Unfunded Promises (billions)
 7,900  Social Security
22,800  Medicare
35,300  Medicaid
 9,100  Federal Debt

75,100  Total Unfunded Promises (billions)
       above curent tax collections

 2,100  Federal Pensions
 3,700  Veteran Benefits
 1,600  All Other

 7,400  In current budgets (billions)

$82,500  Total Promises (billions)

The unfunded promises of $75,100 billion are 34 times the $2,200 billion in taxes estimated to be collected in accounting year 2010 (the year ending Nov 30, 2011). There is nothing saved or set aside to satisfy those promises, and there is no tax revenue now collected or saved to pay those amounts now and during the next 75 years; that is the meaning of "unfunded".

Bob's unfunded promises (in proportion) would be $1,736,00 increasing at 3% yearly, to be paid off in 75 years, over and above Bob's current, spendable (and already spent) income of $50,000 (current tax collections).

EasyOpinions ->Family Budget

Posted by: Andrew_M_Garland at April 05, 2011 04:03 PM (iBN4b)

297 The #GOP Ryan budget is a path to poverty for America's seniors children and a road to riches for big oil

I believe the word is Chutzpah?
Lets see in 10 years, if we decided to pay for the Democrat debt plan.
children who are now 8 will be 18.
You will probably have about 330mil people.
Debt will be about $15T
Assuming equal distribution and paying off that debt before those kids who are 8 now die of old age. They have about $50 grand each they have to come up with, just to pay for the debt the Dems ran up before they could vote. And that is not counting taxes to fund the nanny state for their whole lives, which would be 150% of what we pay now. Which means if we work until about the beginning of April for the federal government, that would mean they would have to work till mid June for the federal government.....their whole lives.....and come up with another 50 grand in vig at some point, just to support the Democrat super state.

If you count state and local obligations, they will have to work the majority of their lives supporting mega government.

Yet we are one's impoverishing them. And the Democrats? They're all about the children.



Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 05, 2011 04:09 PM (0q2P7)

298 Yet we are one's impoverishing them

That's a commercial we desperately need. A little baby, and a simple set of captions.

This child, in his lifetime,
will have to spend more money feeding government,
than feeding his family.

Unless we stop the spending.
Unless we make the hard choices.
Unless we act responsibly [pause] now.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 05, 2011 04:17 PM (0q2P7)

299 just this last monththe fed. gov.spent 8 times more thanit brought in, their excuse "We had to pay back money we had loaned to ourselves" they don't say it that way, but that is what happened.
... the death spiral has begun.

Posted by: Shoey at April 05, 2011 04:22 PM (473WA)

300 Here is the ticket that will make them insane:
Ryan/Rubio 2012

Posted by: ChristyBlinky at April 05, 2011 04:23 PM (FnRYN)

301 Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 05, 2011 04:17 PM (0q2P7)

Crystalline, dude.

Posted by: dick cheese at April 05, 2011 04:24 PM (GTbGH)

302 Death spiral. Yep. It's on us unless we cut these people off. Let the government get shut down if necessary. No one will die. No. One. Brats can try to blame Repubs but it won't work this time.

Still recall years ago when problems in the health care industry caused some hospitals and docs to temporarily shut down. Know what? Their death rates went down too.

Posted by: Cathy at April 05, 2011 04:28 PM (jVzcR)

303 Posted by: Cathy at April 05, 2011 04:28 PM (jVzcR)

Not exactly the same thing, there. Since mortality rates are defined as people in your care when they die (for hospitals and physicians), you would- by definition- have a lower mortality rate by being closed for several days/weeks.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 05, 2011 04:36 PM (8y9MW)

304 We need to totally dismantle the Nanny State, including entitlements. This could eventually cut about 60 percent out of the federal budget at current levels and nothing would jump start our economy faster than a clear plan to put responsibility back where it belongs in a free society, with the individual. Even it takes 40 to 50 years to undo the damage that started with FDR, we can no longer look to government to provide cradle to grave security. It is the government's job to protect us, not treat us like children.

Posted by: llotter at April 05, 2011 04:59 PM (F5S7a)

305 Transcript, AEI presentation

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 05, 2011 05:10 PM (UO6+e)

306 When is the Tea Party Express releasing its budget?

Posted by: swamp_yankee at April 05, 2011 05:32 PM (ZIpcL)

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Pigford is okay?
75% of illegal aliens collecting welfare is okay?
Funding all sorts of Leftwing groups is okay?
Having a Congress and White House live like Emperors is okay?

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