What's Involved In Setting Up A No-Fly Zone Over Libya?
Quite a bit it actually.First and most importantly, the political will.
"We are working to translate the world's outrage into action and results," (Secretary of State Hillary) Clinton said, highlighting that USAID is sending two teams, one each to Egypt and Tunisia, to aid the humanitarian response to the flow of refugees coming from Libya. The United States has moved the USS Enterprise carrier strike group to the area near Libya. Clinton said that military assets are being repositioned now to support the humanitarian mission there, but that direct military intervention remained a possibility.Of course, not everyone is outraged or wants to see action. Can you say
But before any military action, he would have to secure international agreement and Russia's consent is required as a veto-wielding member of the Security Council. Russia's support looked likely when newswires quoted a Kremlin source today saying Gaddafi must step down because by using force against civilians he has become a 'political corpse.' But Russia's NATO ambassador Dmitry Rogozin also cautioned against moving militarily against Gadhafi without UN authorisation. 'If someone in Washington is seeking a blitzkrieg in Libya, it is a serious mistake because any use of military force outside the NATO responsibility zone will be considered a violation of international law,' Rogozin told Russia's Interfax news agency in Brussels on Tuesday. 'A ban on the national air force or civil aviation to fly over their own territory is still a serious interference into the domestic affairs of another country, and at any rate it requires a resolution of the UN Security Council,' he said.From the military perspective, it's not impossible but it's not like we have a lot of extra capacity laying around in that part of the world. From "In From the Cold":
And, from a military perspective, the no-fly zone would do little to help Libyan rebels fighting in the streets. The number of sorties flown by the Libyan Air Force has been rather small, and the skills of Libyan pilots are unimpressive, at best. Qaddafi's air squadrons have never been much more than a high-speed flying club for regime loyalists; the force hasn't improved significantly since the U.S. Navy splashed a couple of SU-22 Fitters over the Gulf of Sidra 30 years ago. Indeed, we might be better off by broadcasting "safe passage" rules of Libyan pilots and encouraging more of them to defect. ...Truth be told, we could probably implement an "initial" no-fly zone operation in a matter of days, using fighters from the USS Enterprise and the Aegis surveillance radars of its escort vessels. AWACS support would be drawn from the NATO AEW force at Geilenkirchen AB, Germany, along with British and French AWACS squadrons (a total of 28 aircraft). The necessary rules-of-engagement could be adapted from those used in Iraq and the Balkans. And, there are still plenty of pilots in the various NATO air forces with experience in no-fly zone enforcement. Participation by ISR and tanker aircraft--most of them American--would round out the operation. Additionally, Libya's ground-based air defense system doesn't pose much of a challenge, either. It's essentially the same network that shot down only one U.S. F-111 during the 1986 bombing raids against Qaddafi's personal headquarters and elements of his armed forces. U.S. capabilities have improved both quantitatively and qualitatively since that time; Libya's IADS has slowly declined thanks to shortages of trained personnel and erratic maintenance. Suggesting that Libyan SAMs, radars and AAA pose a significant challenge is something of an insult to U.S. and NATO personnel who train for the SEAD mission on a regular basis.After surveying the help we might be able to get from our regional allies, CDRSalamander seems a bit more pessimistic about the available options.
Would we give a station to our allies? Of the remaining folks, GBR, ESP, & ITA have CVS, right? Well, the Brits don’t do CVS counter-air anymore – and the Italians and Spanish carriers? How many sorties can they do? How about if they had a lot of land based fighter support? How many fighter aircraft need to be stationed at Sigonella supported by how many tankers to cover Tripoli? Same question about Souda Bay and Benghazi. The British bases on Cyprus? UK officials said they could use of a British military air base in Akrotiri, Cyprus to enforce a no-fly mission. “Akrotiri would be very useful if we wanted to deploy,” said an official. “That would seem most logical.”Although fixed-wing aircraft appear to be depleted, British officials said the main concern was that Col Gaddafi could use helicopters to mount bombing raids on opponents. Thanks, but … look at that transit – tanker and AEW/ES only. That is about the same distance as from Masirah, Oman to Southern Afghanistan. There is the problem – but we have a solution, the one a lot of smart people are going to try to make work. We will have do a limited NFZ-L with Big E and the KEARSARGE ESG. Not the way it should be done, but good enough for show. On alert, using limited CAPs and relying on ready aircraft. Our allies may be here and there and will be able to help on the margins – but they have neither the ability or political will to do much more. They have proven over and over that they are less concerned about their backyard than we are – either that are they are just too used to us solving their big problems – and if we don’t – they will just hope for the best.Both posts are well worth reading in full. Remember, the leader of the No Fly Zone idea is UK Prime Minister David Cameron. Good for him and all but it's rather hollow to hear this can of talk from the guy who has put the Royal Navy out of the power projection business. Aircraft carriers are damn expensive to build, operate and man but they are damn handy things when you need one or three. We are at the bare minimum at the moment and as you can see, it's actually below the minimum. Secretary of Defense Gates talks a lot about how much is enough, especially in terms of carriers when no one else really has any to speak of. According to the Chief of Naval Operations, we need at least 2 to cover the
Sister golden hair surprise!
Posted by: soothsayerwing plover at March 01, 2011 09:11 PM (6cqZX)
Posted by: soothsayerwing plover at March 01, 2011 09:11 PM (6cqZX)
3 Exit Question : Why Bother?
Posted by: garrett at March 01, 2011 09:15 PM (m5n4R)
4 I guess the Red Sea is near Libya.
Posted by: toby928™ at March 01, 2011 09:15 PM (GTbGH)
5 The concept of a 'No-Fly Zone' is pure posturing.
There's nothing to gain other than the illusion of action.
Posted by: garrett at March 01, 2011 09:17 PM (m5n4R)
6 A perfect, ironclad, foolproof no-fly zone does indeed have a lot of moving parts. The attempt, however, the first step which may with a bit of good fortune become the last step, is a lot more simple. Just start patrolling. Our naval aviators know how to do it.
Posted by: Craig McCarthy at March 01, 2011 09:18 PM (5iJRS)
7 A. Let's all remember that Sarah Palin was an idiot for even suggesting this according to the geniuses at CNN.
B. What are we trying to do and who are we trying to do it for? Who is "the opposition"?
C. If not purely carrier-based, this will require a great deal of tanker activity and I'm not sure either we or the Europeans have the capacity given the commitments in Afghanistan.
D. What happens if Libya turns into Lebanon with a much, much longer coastline?
E. Wouldn't a naval blockade be easier?
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2011 09:19 PM (7utQ2)
8 Can the meteor just hit us now and get it over with?
Posted by: alexthechick at March 01, 2011 09:19 PM (qPgNK)
9 Glass option?
Posted by: SomewhereSouthWest at March 01, 2011 09:20 PM (CyPWX)
10 How are Americans inside Libya faring?
The only reason I can see for 'no fly' enforcement is for an evacuation. Just let them know in advance that we will be taking over a particular airport for a couple days. Feel free to oppose us, but we will have trigger happy fighter pilots flying overwatch.
Posted by: fluffy, xenophobe at March 01, 2011 09:22 PM (SwkdU)
11 How are Americans inside Libya faring?
Most have vamoosed. The Embassy is closed.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2011 09:23 PM (7utQ2)
12 Most have vamoosed. The Embassy is closed.
Good to hear. In that case, let the UN clean it up. They like Libya.
Posted by: fluffy at March 01, 2011 09:24 PM (SwkdU)
13 Fuck SecDef Gates.Obama scrotum licker extraordinaire.
Posted by: steevy at March 01, 2011 09:24 PM (L15FQ)
14 Ummm...have we considered the option of: How about NO!!
Posted by: Portnoy at March 01, 2011 09:25 PM (azgo2)
15 I think someone posted earlier, about a player on the stage?
I must agree.
Posted by: SomewhereSouthWest at March 01, 2011 09:26 PM (CyPWX)
16 Followed by the : Who gives a Shit Doctrine.
Posted by: Portnoy at March 01, 2011 09:26 PM (azgo2)
17 Followed by the : Who gives a Shit Doctrine.
Honey Badger does not.
Posted by: blaster at March 01, 2011 09:27 PM (Fw2Gg)
18 they practice 1st on michelle ass
Posted by: newrouter at March 01, 2011 09:27 PM (nfC5u)
19 "Wow, just wow" Stolen from insty, 84 year old WWII sniper shoots a 5" group at 1,000 yards.
Posted by: robtr at March 01, 2011 09:28 PM (hVDig)
20 Charlie Sheen Reveals His Drug Test Results – Newser
4.7 ON THE RICHTER SCALE
Posted by: SKYNET at March 01, 2011 09:29 PM (D6Uk6)
21 "Wow, just wow" Stolen from insty, 84 year old WWII sniper shoots a 5" group at 1,000 yards.
Yeah, I think I'll stay out of his yard.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2011 09:30 PM (7utQ2)
22 Here's the good news - dick around in the UN for a little while longer and this problem is overcome by events.
Qadafy will be out and the world didn't have to commit to anything. Except I am sure the US will be on the hook to provide a bunch of aid.
Pretty much what the UN is for.
Posted by: blaster at March 01, 2011 09:31 PM (Fw2Gg)
23 We should facilitate a rebel takeover, by any means necessary, and ensure that the "right" rebel faction is positioned to take control.
Oh, and f*ck the Russians.
Posted by: Fritz at March 01, 2011 09:31 PM (/8mBu)
24 23 Yeah,the Russians inject their opinion into things as if they still matter.
Posted by: steevy at March 01, 2011 09:33 PM (L15FQ)
25 Looks like a case of few options, and all of them suck.
the leader of the No Fly Zone idea is UK Prime Minister David Cameron. Good for him and all but it's rather hollow to hear this kind of talk from the guy who has put the Royal Navy out of the power projection business
...you can't blame anyone from saying "You're on your own, this time." The possible benefits from taking this on versus staying well out of it are hard to weigh. Let the Italians do something. They have the most historical links with Libya.
BTW, regarding the sidebar item about Consigliere General Eric Holder, I have a message for him. It would have been more succinct and honest to flip his middle finger and say "Fuck you, whitey."
Posted by: George Orwell at March 01, 2011 09:33 PM (AZGON)
26 According to the Chief of Naval Operations, we need at least 2 to cover the Persian Gulf alone for the foreseeable future.
Does the Navy fly missions into Afstan?
Posted by: Waterhouse at March 01, 2011 09:33 PM (HCEoX)
Why didn't you come to me like a man and tell me that we can't cut tankers, AWACS, the F22 and a bunch of carriers??????
Posted by: SecDef Gates, channeling the Silky Pony at March 01, 2011 09:35 PM (yf5H9)
28 But, what is our exit strategy?
Posted by: confused liberal who forgot Bush isn't President anymore at March 01, 2011 09:35 PM (4/zwX)
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Posted by: Cheap Replica Watches at March 01, 2011 09:36 PM (ZHBDV)
30 Navy flies ground support in Afghanistan.
Posted by: blaster at March 01, 2011 09:36 PM (Fw2Gg)
31 We should facilitate a rebel takeover, by any means necessary, and
ensure that the "right" rebel faction is positioned to take control.
Good luck with that. That's not a policy, it's a roulette bet.
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Posted by: Cheap Replica Watches at March 01, 2011 09:37 PM (ZHBDV)
33 Only a fool would get us involved in the shit show that Libya's likely to become, especially considering everything we have on our plates. It's likely to become a less crowded Somalia on the Med. Even if it sticks together in one piece we're going to be stuck bankrolling the place with aid money indefinitely.
Posted by: MlR at March 01, 2011 09:38 PM (uxyPr)
34 Don't make it so complicated.
First you give the order
Then shit happens
Posted by: melvin at March 01, 2011 09:38 PM (3OCZw)
35 We need to strike...through!
Posted by: Tami at March 01, 2011 09:40 PM (VuLos)
36 AoSHQ ON STRIKE!!!!
Posted by: Drum Circle at March 01, 2011 09:40 PM (6fER6)
37 Ready the Air Craft
Posted by: melvin at March 01, 2011 09:40 PM (3OCZw)
38 Crap. Someone fixed it even before I commented.
Posted by: Anachronda at March 01, 2011 09:40 PM (6fER6)
39 Navy flies ground support in Afghanistan.
Interesting; I thought that was all done from airfields in Afghanistan.
Posted by: Waterhouse at March 01, 2011 09:40 PM (HCEoX)
I watched the whole thing.
Most Rated Comment -
Poor is the nation that has no heroes. Shameful is the nation that, after having them... forgets. ---unknown.
Posted by: SomewhereSouthWest at March 01, 2011 09:40 PM (CyPWX)
41 And Mighty Casey...
Posted by: blaster at March 01, 2011 09:41 PM (Fw2Gg)
42 You're right, let's kick back, play golf, and let K-Daffy call the shots. A Russian roulette bet is a better way to go.
Posted by: Fritz at March 01, 2011 09:41 PM (/8mBu)
43 But if we get rid of all of our imperialist aircraft carriers, then we can spends lots of money on the children!
Posted by: Typical Prog at March 01, 2011 09:44 PM (ijjAe)
44 BTW, regarding the sidebar item about Consigliere General Eric Holder, I have a message for him. It would have been more succinct and honest to flip his middle finger and say "Fuck you, whitey."
Holder is a racist. The good kind.
Posted by: Ronster at March 01, 2011 09:44 PM (rzuJR)
45 A nice shipment of lace wigs ought to do the trick. I mean, have you seen Mo-Mar's hair?
Posted by: Darth Randall at March 01, 2011 09:44 PM (O/onO)
46 You're right, let's kick back, play golf, and let K-Daffy call the shots.
Way better than sending troops under the command of Barry O.
Posted by: fluffy at March 01, 2011 09:44 PM (SwkdU)
47 It doesn't look like they are interested in fighting a civil war, it looks more like they are interested in getting the hell out of there while they can.
Posted by: curious at March 01, 2011 09:44 PM (k1rwm)
48 I'm dancing to the Zenga Zenga song.
Posted by: George Orwell at March 01, 2011 09:45 PM (AZGON)
49 Well, at least the U.N. has suspended Libya from the Human Rights Council, pending further review.
Posted by: ErikW at March 01, 2011 09:46 PM (q6DhI)
50 I've been really undecided about this whole mess, but I lean toward Q'Doofus. Mainly that's because I have no idea who the rebels are. I know enough about the dirtbags in Egypt to have been wishing them ill right along, but what do we know in this case? Chances of this being a spontaneous uprising of people destined to live free seem pretty remote. Better the devil you know.
Posted by: VRWC Agent at March 01, 2011 09:48 PM (JXaAZ)
51 "State Dept: 30 Americans still in Libya, trying to get out - NBC News"
I don't recommend that they try to go to Tunisia. There's a tight squeeze going on over there.
Posted by: curious at March 01, 2011 09:49 PM (k1rwm)
Well, at least the U.N. has suspended Libya from the Human Rights Council, pending further review.
Gadaffi's wrist must really be sprained from that harsh blow!
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 01, 2011 09:50 PM (Xr9mY)
53 Heh. The BBC article you linked, curious, has this:
"We also have to think about, frankly, the use of the US military in another country in the Middle East," Mr Gates said, referring to the long US-led war in Iraq.
Yet nothing in the article about Lord Barry's failure to end the war in Iraq, widely hated at the BBC, and bring home all those vile imperialist US troops. As if Barry neither has now nor had while campaigning anything to say about the military presence in Iraq.
Posted by: George Orwell at March 01, 2011 09:50 PM (AZGON)
54 OT: Koch-ya....
The vitriol from protesting Wisconsin workers towards the Kochs
emerged quickly and intensely. Signs ranging between lame and vulgar
(often both) dot the public-union marches.
But what the protesters don't realize is that they actually have a reason to root for the Koch brothers.
to the State of Wisconsin Investment Board (SWIB), the Wisconsin
Retirement System owns $5.5 million in Georgia Pacific corporate bonds.
(Georgia Pacific is owned by Koch Industries.) This is the retirement
system in which the overwhelming majority of state and local employees
participate. These are the pension benefits that public employees are
trying so hard to protect.
So here's the challenge: Explain to a Wisconsin state worker that
they are the ones helping fund the Koch brothers. Then sit back and
watch the fun.
Posted by: Tami at March 01, 2011 09:50 PM (VuLos)
55 So, he who dares, wins has now become he who dawdles relies on a sycophantic press corp to cover his ass. Bbc was reporting that two jet sorties against a rebel held ammo dump intentionally missed, and we don't have enough nerve and vision at the top to give these clowns a no fly area and a free escape vector out of the country. We don't need to be constantly patrolling so long as we canrespond fast enough so a plane can't get back home before the good guys can blow it up. Once we establish any plane isn't coming home the escape vector will become crowded.
Posted by: Joe at March 01, 2011 09:52 PM (rDS6H)
56 What if their planes just exploded one night? Or maybe their fuel storage. Jet fuel is pretty special stuff. No fuel, no planes, no fly.
Posted by: Pawn at March 01, 2011 09:52 PM (1Ol6/)
57 No need to go pro-Qadafy. He's a bad guy, bad things will happen to him. We should cheer that. From the sidelines.
Posted by: blaster at March 01, 2011 09:52 PM (Fw2Gg)
58 Well, at least the U.N. has suspended Libya from the Human Rights Council, pending further review.
Let's not act so hastily, now. This perhaps looks too judgmental and Euro-centric.
Posted by: George Orwell at March 01, 2011 09:52 PM (AZGON)
59 Really pisses me off to hear the Rooskies complain about how an American or NATO use of military in Libya would violate international law.
If the US had a competent C in C, he'd comment on that by pointing out Putin's recent invasion of Georgia had no UN approval.
And then begin overflights of Tripoli w/ plenty of sonic booms to let everyone know we own the skies.
Posted by: Kortezzi at March 01, 2011 09:53 PM (Z7mwY)
60 Tami. That is beautiful. Would the state workers heads explode if the knew?
Posted by: Ronster at March 01, 2011 09:54 PM (rzuJR)
61 Really pisses me off to hear the Rooskies complain about how an American
or NATO use of military in Libya would violate international law.
This reset button doesn't work.
Do you think Best Buy has one that does?
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2011 09:55 PM (7utQ2)
62 Seriously, we need to stop and reverse this Muslim concocted meme that the Americans are evil. I don't give a fuck what the Muslim street thinks or how badly the MFM will spin things. They will always hate us anyway, what else is new.
We should intervene post haste for humanitarian reasons first and foremost (when we have proof that innocents are being slaughtered) with the primary goal to Kill the Terrorist Leader and his friends. Air only if possible, Then get the fuck out asap period there's your exit strategy. Let the rest of the world debate what just happened. I still want his head on a stick and would be proud to have America do it.
Posted by: melvin at March 01, 2011 09:55 PM (3OCZw)
63 Eric Holder phones to say while the events in Libya are regrettable, they pale in comparison to the injustice people of his ancestry have faced, trying to vote in an unjust society like the USA.
Posted by: George Orwell at March 01, 2011 09:56 PM (AZGON)
64 Batchelor just played the ad, can't find it, darn but daniels does have some sense of humor.
Posted by: curious at March 01, 2011 09:56 PM (k1rwm)
For a small fee I'd be willing to mediate this mess.
Posted by: Kofi Annan at March 01, 2011 09:58 PM (8/QZP)
66 Gaddafi is just holding out for some cheap replica watches.
Posted by: George Orwell at March 01, 2011 09:58 PM (AZGON)
67 Sending (U.S.)troops is not on the table. A no-fly zone is on the table. And what's wrong with a little unofficial special operations resupply and training thrown in under the table?
After all, we're not at war in Africa, we're just acting in the best interests of our European allies, - with UN (sans Russian) approval, of course.
Posted by: Fritz at March 01, 2011 10:00 PM (/8mBu)
68 found it
Posted by: curious at March 01, 2011 10:01 PM (k1rwm)
69 Tami. That is beautiful. Would the state workers heads explode if the knew?
Posted by: Ronster at March 01, 2011 09:54 PM (rzuJR)
We can only hope.
Posted by: Tami at March 01, 2011 10:01 PM (VuLos)
70 Here is a video of Senator Grothman being assaulted today by the peaceful protesters in Wisconsin
Posted by: timwi at March 01, 2011 10:01 PM (Sxt4Z)
71 We should intervene post haste for humanitarian reasons first and foremost ,when we have proof that innocents are being slaughtered
That proof never holds up in the International Anti-American Pro-Muslim Court of Public Opinion, though.
Saddam Hussein slaughtered innocents, the Talibs slaughter innocents,
but we're always interfering Imperialist bastards when we go in.
'em all. The savages obviously need a strong boot up their ass to make them behave; might as well be a boot that speaks their own language.
If the Eu and the UN are appalled, let the UN and the EU deal with it for a change.
Posted by: MissTammy at March 01, 2011 10:01 PM (BebB7)
72 Who gives a shit what the Russians think? They violate the law all the damn time. Easy button answer is to send in Predators with Hellfires and when the opportunity strikes, put a missile in Ghadafi's ass. And when the world is outraged, just go whoopsie and say some hacker hijacked the Predator and fired the missile.
Posted by: CDR M at March 01, 2011 10:04 PM (5I8G0)
73 "Wow, just wow" Stolen from insty, 84 year old WWII sniper shoots a 5" group at 1,000 yards.
Made me cry. Beautiful.
Posted by: dagny at March 01, 2011 10:04 PM (xTBWh)
74 Maybe we could airdrop in some longbows?
Posted by: blaster at March 01, 2011 10:06 PM (Fw2Gg)
75 Yet nothing in the article about Lord Barry's failure to end the war in Iraq, widely hated at the BBC, and bring home all those vile imperialist US troops.
War? What war?
Posted by: dagny at March 01, 2011 10:06 PM (xTBWh)
76 airdrop in some longbows?
Trebuchets with sheep dipped in Greek fire.
Posted by: George Orwell at March 01, 2011 10:09 PM (AZGON)
77 I want my ONT .....
Posted by: Dire Straits at March 01, 2011 10:09 PM (vdfwz)
I want my ONT .....
Posted by: Dire Straits at March 01, 2011 10:09 PM (vdfwz)
Posted by: curious at March 01, 2011 10:13 PM (k1rwm)
79 "Wow, just wow" Stolen from insty, 84 year old WWII sniper shoots a 5"
group at 1,000 yards.
Posted by: lowandslow at March 01, 2011 10:15 PM (GZitp)
80 Just sent that video to my entire list sev begging my friends to tell me that people aren't realty this stupid. I wonder if the idiot will get fired.
Posted by: curious at March 01, 2011 10:15 PM (k1rwm)
81 Foreign Aid
Some assembly required...
Posted by: Def. Dept. at March 01, 2011 10:16 PM (NtXW4)
82 Put a GPS tracker on the Ukranian nurse, have it transmit when the bra clasp comes undone and drop a bomb... clean, efficient and cheap.
Plan 2 is to send Charlie Sheen over as a mediator. He is the only guy we got who can speak Mummer's dialect of crazy.
And for Christ's sake stop ringing my phone at 3:00 AM for the easy shit!
Posted by: George Shultz at March 01, 2011 10:22 PM (JKX4x)
83 UHHMM, Democrats don't seem to be demanding that we try to deal with Libya through the UN first. Who knew? Maybe if we insist they wait until Gaddafi defies at least 14 UN Sanction decrees.
Posted by: Greg at March 01, 2011 10:25 PM (nZXNe)
84 "War? What war?"
Never heard of it.
Posted by: Charlie Gibson at March 01, 2011 10:26 PM (JXaAZ)
85 Can someone put me some knowledge ont he subject of battleships and missle cruisers? We're paying a lot of money for new missle cruisers with Aegis radar systems but mothballing the old battleships. I understand that battleship main guns aren't useful these days, but the hull and superstructure is fucking amazing on those things. Why aren't they putting mini nuke reactors in the engine rooms, tearing off the guns and putting in missle batteries? The old battleships are better able to handle mines or torpedoes that Iran or other adversaries may use than any of the new ships. During the Iraq war I remember reading how the Missouri had to run at partial throttle because she was the fastest ship in her battle fleet.
We're killing off the old battlewagons that have the best speed and armor in the fleet when they could be repurposed with some modifications to be state of the art, over the horizon, missle cruisers and air craft carrier protection.
Posted by: Allen at March 01, 2011 10:33 PM (NqhL+)
86 Posted by: Allen at March 01, 2011 10:33 PM (NqhL+)
Allen...you might want to go to the ONT and see if CDR M is around there. He could probably answer that question.
Posted by: Tami at March 01, 2011 10:39 PM (VuLos)
87 What if their planes just exploded one night? Or maybe their fuel
storage. Jet fuel is pretty special stuff. No fuel, no planes, no fly.
I like it. Even a No-Fly Zone is a lot of official involvement.
I was thinking "Let the Italians do it" as in some Navy pilot with a TX accent trying to do a Joisey guy.
"That's a nice plane youze got dere Mahmoud"
Posted by: Dave at March 01, 2011 10:44 PM (6OwZc)
88 cause it would cost trillions and you'd still just have a surface ship/target.
Posted by: Uncle Jed at March 01, 2011 11:22 PM (vXwmy)
89 We're killing off the old battlewagons that have the best speed and armor in the fleet when they could be repurposed with some modifications to be state of the art, over the horizon, missle cruisers and air craft carrier protection.
Posted by: Allen
1) They take too many men to operate - manpower intensive
2) You can't "rip off" the turrents. They weighthousands oftons each (with all the associated engineering below deck). The removal of the turrets would unbalance the ship.
3) The old engineering of the Iowa class battleships was well built, but it's old, almost 70 years old now. Even with a bunch of refits, the Enterprise (50 years old) is getting worn out.
Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes... at March 01, 2011 11:30 PM (sJTmU)
90 a 200k anti-ship missile vs billion dollar surface ship/target is a bad trade-off. see falklands war.
b2s can put a lot of bombs on target worldwide in a matter of hours. takes ships days/weeks. not to mention you actually need two surface fleets because they are in the yard half the time.
Posted by: Uncle Jed at March 01, 2011 11:38 PM (vXwmy)
91 Let the Italians do something. They have the most historical links with Libya.
Amen to that. Why are we involved, again? It's not like Libya was ever an ally. Last week I was reading the Italians are terrified they'll be swamped with Libyans and other North Africans if there's a full-blown civil war. Sounds like a grand justification for the Italians to deal with this.
We can buy oil from whomever is running the place.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 01, 2011 11:40 PM (QgI7g)
92 Posted by: Allen at March 01, 2011 10:33 PM (NqhL+)
Battleship main guns have not really been usefull since WWII, EXCEPT for shorfire bombardment, where they rule.
They have been mothballed for many years now, partly because it is just too expensive to maintain the old technology needed when their parts wear out... and take too much very specialized old tech manpower to run.
Just about every surface ship we have (DDGs and Cruisers, not carriers) use the same basic power plants, which make training techs, and getting parts, much easier. Sooo... the Navy many years ago decided it was more bang for the buck to build DDGs and CGs... which are faster, and are built with much better electrical systems, which can support much better radars and such.
And... 2 or 3 Modern DDGs would OWN anything on the water today... while being the same price, and less manpower, than a Battleship...
Posted by: Romeo13 at March 01, 2011 11:42 PM (NtXW4)
93 We're killing off the old battlewagons that have the best speed and
armor in the fleet when they could be repurposed with some modifications
to be state of the art, over the horizon, missle cruisers and air craft
Speed? No. One of the primary reasons they went into mothballs to start with was they're too slow to keep up with aircraft carriers. The Iowa's top design speed was 32.5 knots before a refit which added an additional 2000 tons. An Enterprise class carrier's top speed is classified, but it's probably over 35 knots.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 01, 2011 11:48 PM (QgI7g)
94 Battleship main guns have not really been usefull since WWII, EXCEPT for shorfire bombardment, where they rule.
They weren't useful for anything else even before WW II. They'd been recognized as almost completely vulnerable from the air by the mid 1930s.
The record of surface warfare after 1942 is one of navies trying desperately to find a use for the ships they'd spend so much money on. We used them as air defense and shore bombardment platforms. By 1945 the only thing the Japanese could think of to do with the Yamato, one of the two most powerful battleships ever built, was to beach her on the shores of Okinawa to serve as a fixed gun emplacement.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 01, 2011 11:56 PM (QgI7g)
95 By 1945 the only thing the Japanese could think of to do with the
Yamato, one of the two most powerful battleships ever built, was to
beach her on the shores of Okinawa to serve as a fixed gun emplacement.
Until they installed the Star Drive and the dorsal particle cannon.
Posted by: Jean at March 02, 2011 12:09 AM (0rXxT)
96 yeah, i forgot about the dorsal particle cannon part.
Posted by: Uncle Jed at March 02, 2011 12:31 AM (vXwmy)
97 I, for one, think a no-fly zone should remain back in the Clinton Administration from whence it came. Militarily, it is a way to do very little at little cost in casualties while appearing to do something important.
If we are going to support a faction in Libya, we need to pick that faction and then support them until they win. Neutrality will get us another Iraq, or another Somalia. Picking the winner and running them up a tab to pay off will get us closer to a stable government of some form.
Posted by: Penultimatum at March 02, 2011 01:39 PM (dJ7er)
98 ato, one of the two most powerful battleships ever built, was to beach her on the shores of Okinawa to serve as a fixed gun emplace [url=http://www.prostatehome.com]prostate problems[/url]
Posted by: prostate problems at March 03, 2011 03:00 AM (Olkn5)
99 Swing Check Valves, lift check valves, piston check valves Standard compliance LASS 150~1500 FORGED STEEL TRUNNION BALL VALVE
Posted by: globe valves at March 03, 2011 06:43 AM (3W4Ou)
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