Harvard Study: We're Encouraging Too Many People To Seek Academic Four Year Degrees at the Expense of Vocational Two-Year Degrees, Which We Really Need

The academy offers two reasons for getting a four year degree: 1, the experience of college life and the intellectual growth it offers (offers, note: many don't bother to take that offer. I didn't, not really).

Add into this the stuff they don't say but everyone knows like "it's easy to get laid in college.")

2, actual preparation for a good-paying career.

1's a nice reason but it basically amounts to a four year vacation. If the goal is to prepare people for a career, we really need to do things differently. So sayeth Harvard.

The U.S. is focusing too much attention on helping students pursue four-year college degrees, when two-year and occupational programs may better prepare them for the job market, a Harvard University report said.

The “college for all” movement has produced only incremental gains as other nations leapfrog the United States, and the country is failing to prepare millions of young people to become employable adults...

Here's one bad thing about propagandizing for college: It creates the belief that intellectual growth can only happen in college. Like, only if a professor assigns you a book can you read it and think about it. Like, only if you're in a seminar can you discuss intellectual type stuff.

So millions of people think they're incomplete if they don't go to college.

Plus, people leave college and sort of say, "Well! All done with that!" As in, I will never attempt intellectual growth again. I sorta did that, too.

All this emphasis on college, where immature minds learn the very basics of stuff. What about adulthood, where people already know a bit more and have a bit of wisdom behind them?

I can sort of imagine a salon/seminar/book-club sort of culture taking root in the United States. Barely; I mean, it's improbable, but it could happen. And if that should happen -- why shouldn't people pursue this sort of thing as a devotion or genuine interest their whole lives? Where did we get this idea that learning begins freshman year of college and, by implication, ends senior year (or, realistically -- junior year)?

If people have the yearning for this sort of thing, they can have it, and they don't need to be in college for it. A mechanic who likes reading can join a book club, can't he?

I realize this sort of thing does exist, but most people don't take advantage of it. And, anyway, since the idea becomes that learning only happens in college, it's sort of devalued as "just a hobby" or whatnot, whereas in college it's "real."

Well, it's not particularly real in college. For some, maybe, for most, no, and in any event, I don't think that vocational preparation and intellectual growth are related endeavors for most people -- for most occupations, they're tangentially related or not at all. Only for top-level thinking-type professions are they closely related.

So why are the two concepts joined in our minds? This model makes sense for 15% of the population but not for 85% of it. And the model seems to retard learning for many (again, gee, can't learn unless you're in college) as well as actual vocational preparation.


Actually... It's likely that that is precisely why the internet and blogs and discussion fora have taken off -- because this is an easy way (no driving, no scheduled meetings, etc.) to have a sort of salon-type thing going on. We do it here with politics, and of course pretty much every single possible area of interest has its discussion fora, from model railroading to wannabe physics geeks.

So, I guess, to some extent, the internet has facilitated exactly what I'm talking about. But it's not a physical-presence thing so that maybe people don't consider it to be a sort of salon.

I read, forget when, that the Germans were just queer for clubs, and every German belonged to several of them, from professional type clubs to intellectual interest clubs to hobbyist clubs to boardgame clubs. Americans I don't think ever matched the Germans for club-joiningness, and certainly since the 60s, when that sort of structured community society seemed to become passe or reactionary or Ozzie and Harriet or whatever, it's declined further.

Although it's a FACT that Germans Are Weird, I always wonder if Americans wouldn't be better off if that sort of institutional, formal parallel civil society weren't in existence here.

Posted by: Ace at 03:04 PM



Comments

1 College is all about Credentialism. Which happens to be all about Affirmative Action and labor law.

Posted by: toby928™ at February 02, 2011 03:06 PM (GTbGH)

2 I start college this fall.
My top two picks are University of Richmond and Villanova. The tuition is big, but I'm planning on signing up for ROTC. I can't decide between Army or Marines though.

Posted by: Flapjackmaka at February 02, 2011 03:06 PM (c5RQr)

3 Harvard's just embarrassed about the gang of malignant doofuses with Harvard diplomas hanging on their walls whoare wrecking the country.

Posted by: Cicero at February 02, 2011 03:07 PM (QKKT0)

4 I am so pleased to see that Harvard re-upped on its lapsed subscription to Captain Obvious.

Posted by: ya2daup at February 02, 2011 03:07 PM (7GfKM)

5 The U.S. is focusing too much attention on helping students pursue
four-year college degrees, when two-year and occupational programs may
better prepare them for the job market, a Harvard University report
said.

Just proves how stupid Harvard really is. Most smart people have been saying this for years. It doesn't take a "study", but then again it does for a government grant.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2011 03:08 PM (M9Ie6)

6 Would you pay money to Joe Biden to do a brake job on your car?

Posted by: toby928™ at February 02, 2011 03:08 PM (GTbGH)

7 As an 18-year member of the college community, I can confirm that not everyone can learn well in college. As a soon-to-be-educated unemployed person, I can confirm that having a degree does not neessarily lead to a good-paying career.

Posted by: Truman North at February 02, 2011 03:08 PM (G5JPI)

8 Primary purpose of a university? To keep professors employed.

Secondary purpose? To keep students there as long as possible to pay the salaries of said professors- and administrators.

Posted by: shibumi at February 02, 2011 03:08 PM (OKZrE)

9 Like, only if a professor assigns you a book can you read it and think about it. Like, only if you're in a seminar can you discuss intellectual type stuff.

Like? Like???

Posted by: Ace's Disappointed College English Composition Professor at February 02, 2011 03:08 PM (QKKT0)

10 This is akin to the poll I posted this morning.

Today's stupid and useless poll of the day.
Next up, poll asking how many people really want to eat during the next few
days.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2011 03:08 PM (M9Ie6)

11 This is clearly Palin's fault.

Posted by: Paul Krugman at February 02, 2011 03:09 PM (veZ9n)

12 3
Harvard's just embarrassed about the gang of malignant doofuses with
Harvard diplomas hanging on their walls whoare wrecking the country.Posted by: Cicero at February 02, 2011 03:07 PM (QKKT0)

Um ... no, we're not ...

Posted by: crimson & clover at February 02, 2011 03:09 PM (7GfKM)

13 Harvard Study: We are producing way too many pricks like us by encouraging 4 year degrees.

Posted by: madamex at February 02, 2011 03:09 PM (ice9D)

14
Harvard College's purpose is simply to get students ready for grad school where the serious and sometimes practical studies take place.

Posted by: soothsayerwing plover at February 02, 2011 03:10 PM (t2wZz)

15 What is really promoting useless 4 year degrees is thre EEOC. Eliminate those useless parasites and companies will quit hiring and promoting based on useless degrees.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2011 03:11 PM (M9Ie6)

16 Would you pay money to Joe Biden to do a brake job on your car?
If I could convince him to just chock one of the wheels with his head ... lemme get back to you on that one.

Posted by: Andy at February 02, 2011 03:11 PM (veZ9n)

17 I have seen this story published every three years or so for the last thirty years. Nothing ever changes.
I've taught undergraduates. Very revealing to see the work that they turn in. Many of them don't know ordinary useful things that I learned in high school. And they don't learn those things in four years, either. A lot of the kids assume that they'll learn whatever they need to know on the job, after they graduate.
Four year colleges are tuition-gatheringmachines for the most part..

Posted by: Wm T Sherman at February 02, 2011 03:12 PM (w41GQ)

18 Kinda like a supply/demand thingie I learned about...weldors now make 20 to 40 bucks an hour through a two-year degree (or less), and the push for four year degrees has devalued them to 10 buck an hour barista gigs...

Posted by: apb at February 02, 2011 03:12 PM (eeZ/E)

19 Ace's Disappointed College English Composition Professor,

Fuck you buddy. I told you that the moment I graduated I was going to, like, write like this, and profit from it.

Posted by: ace at February 02, 2011 03:13 PM (nj1bB)

20

I'm of the opinion that most universities have been set up as jobs programs for boomer pseudo-intellectuals who really wouldn't be able to make a living talking about post-colonialism, and they also wouldn't be able to afford going to Peter Paul and Mary concerts.

I work near a college campus and overheard a guy who obviously was a prof of some history going on and on talking about migration and all this stuff, the obsession with race was deep with this older dude with a beard (you know the type) and I thought it's just meaningless when coupled with a political stance...nefarious is more like it.

Once those people die off, then what...what does the next generation do with thatunvaluable research?

I have talked to telecommunications professors who have gotten major blowback when they talked about vocational training versus the airier scholarship...the entrenched special interests want to keep their phoney baloney jobs.

Structural problems are coming for higher education...

Posted by: Rev Dr E Buzz at February 02, 2011 03:13 PM (tcSZb)

21 How well I remember walking through Harvard Square in 1987 and hearing so many of its trust-fund, legacy deadbeats gloating over the fall of capitalism. Good time, good times.

Posted by: ya2daup at February 02, 2011 03:13 PM (7GfKM)

22 Ya can't have Spring Break: Girls Gone Wild without college now, can ya?

Posted by: Count de Monet at February 02, 2011 03:13 PM (XBM1t)

23 Just proves how stupid Harvard really is. Most smart people have been
saying this for years. It doesn't take a "study", but then again it does
for a government grant.

Social scientists do. They won't believe that water is wet unless they can do a survey that shows water is wet.

The irony is, of course, that social scientists are the problem. Colleges have the humanities and social sciences largely so that the stupid and the lazy can get a degree. Even then they're sometimes too hard and they need to have something even easier for the athletes.

Vocational schools are the most important reform, but even the community colleges fail us. What the hell is "sociology" or "anthropology" even doing at a community college? If you're going to take a course of study designed for bored housewives, then you should be able to afford it like a bored housewife.

The biggest problem with the 4-year colleges -- the liberal arts degree. We cannot compete with science students around the world if we force our own science majors to take breadth requirements.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:13 PM (T0NGe)

24 Four year colleges aretuition- Demoncrat gatheringmachines for the most part..

Posted by: madamex at February 02, 2011 03:14 PM (ice9D)

25 Our house had books and magazines, and I don't mean one or two. My dad, now in his 80's, can waste a whole day in a used bookstore with me and have a grand time doing it. I read Scientific American back when it was really science and I was in 3rd grade. Either you love learning or you don't, and trying to cultivate it with more school really does no good.
I have a Masters Degree because it was required to get my professional credential, but I would never have spent 6 years in college if I could have done it some other way. Four years was more than enough, once you learned the thought process required. Frankly, high school was more work than the university, since high school was so much memorization. All college needed was a nice turn of phrase and a lot of paper.

Posted by: tcn at February 02, 2011 03:14 PM (DjPot)

26 I read, forget when, that the Germans were just queer for clubs, and every German belonged to several of them, from professional type clubs to intellectual interest clubs to hobbyist clubs to boardgame clubs.
Germans were always big on clubs for some reason.

Posted by: Freikorps Recruitment Office at February 02, 2011 03:14 PM (QKKT0)

27 Or, as Dennis Prager has been saying for years, college is the biggest $cam in America today. It provides an insular environment for talentless academics who can't function in a free market environment; it provides an endless audience of gullible students for said talentless liberal twits to spew their stupid 1960s rhetoric; it provides a petri dish for big government to grow its leftism message in an almost financially-unrestricted medium, and; it offers all of these organs of leftism a market that doesn't require a return on investment.

Prager suggests that an industrious person of average intelligence could learn more, faster, and with less propaganda completely on their own in a decent library and keep the $200,000.

He's right, of course.

Posted by: Jaibones at February 02, 2011 03:14 PM (maka6)

28 8 Primary purpose of a university? To keep professors employed.
You'd be surprised about this, especially if you talked to actual professors. The primary purpose of a university is to pay administrators - the professors are getting phased out, especially those who haven't gotten tenure. Tenure is becoming much harder to come by.

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 03:15 PM (AXHCj)

29 any comment on my related thoughts?

Posted by: ace at February 02, 2011 03:15 PM (nj1bB)

30 Sounds like guilt tripping at ivy league ... Salaries don't support value ... LOL

Posted by: tarpon at February 02, 2011 03:15 PM (g0QB8)

31 Well, *I* didn't stop learning after college. What I got out of it mainly was an advanced reading list in my areas of interest, whereas before I drifted from one title to the next, usually contemporary stuff of dubious value and often not knowing how to follow up. I've read 100x what I read in college since then.

Oh, and became a Christian, finally. I think that was due to my philosophy survey prof, whom I learned much later was a closet conservative.

But that's just me.

Posted by: jeannie at February 02, 2011 03:15 PM (GdalM)

32 not fishing for compliments or anything -- it's horridly written. I'm asking about the basic idea I'm talking about.

Posted by: ace at February 02, 2011 03:15 PM (nj1bB)

33 like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know,

Posted by: zoomificator readout of Meghan "Cans" McCain's "deep thoughts" at February 02, 2011 03:16 PM (7GfKM)

34 Hang on while I go get my student from last semester who wrote through her paper how she was "rebuttering" the arguments she presented.

Or the one who claimed you can walk down Broadway in NYC and see a "casual missile" in the name of defense.

I'm sure they have a worthy response to this article.

Posted by: Doc at February 02, 2011 03:16 PM (G0vxC)

35 read, forget when, that the Germans were just queer for clubs,
Yes, it was the fencing clubs that were a problem.

Posted by: Ben at February 02, 2011 03:17 PM (wuv1c)

36 "Would you pay money to Joe Biden to do a brake job on your car?"
I would if Obama was going to be driving with Reid and Pelosi in the passenger seats. Barney Frank would also probably pay Biden for a hand job on his car.

Posted by: mallfly at February 02, 2011 03:17 PM (bJm7W)

37 any comment on my related thoughts?
Solid C+ Ace.

Posted by: Ace's Disappointed College English Composition Professor at February 02, 2011 03:17 PM (QKKT0)

38 OT: but if you can stomach shep smith, there's a full on firefight in Cairo atm, streaming live.

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:17 PM (x3YFz)

39 I'm of the opinion that most universities have been set up as jobs
programs for boomer pseudo-intellectuals who really wouldn't be able to
make a living talking about post-colonialism, and they also wouldn't be
able to afford going to Peter Paul and Mary concerts.

Lots of the current professoriate are the result of military deferments. They stayed in school to get out of Vietnam. My department is a perfect example. For those over 40, the ratio is about 2:1 Americans:foreigners (those who got their high school and bachelor's degrees overseas). For those under 40, it's 1:3.

You'll the overall ratio of American:foreign-born profs in math, science and engineering departments flip almost overnight -- within the next three years.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:18 PM (T0NGe)

40 any comment on my related thoughts?
I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member.

Posted by: Groucho Marx at February 02, 2011 03:19 PM (3lx5O)

41 34
Hang on while I go get my student from last semester who wrote through
her paper how she was "rebuttering" the arguments she presented.

Or the one who claimed you can walk down Broadway in NYC and see a "casual missile" in the name of defense.

I'm sure they have a worthy response to this article.


Posted by: Doc at February 02, 2011 03:16 PM (G0vxC)

mmm. butter.And if you're a hooker on Broadway in NYC I imagine you see a lot of casual missiles.

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:19 PM (x3YFz)

42 The Egyptian Army's tanks are moving on the protesters.

Posted by: Armando at February 02, 2011 03:19 PM (N//pm)

43 34
Hang on while I go get my student from last semester who wrote through
her paper how she was "rebuttering" the arguments she presented.

Or the one who claimed you can walk down Broadway in NYC and see a "casual missile" in the name of defense.

I'm sure they have a worthy response to this article.


Posted by: Doc at February 02, 2011 03:16 PM (G0vxC)
That's antidotal evidence. It's a mute point.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:20 PM (T0NGe)

44 Oh, and of course, kill the humanities.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:20 PM (T0NGe)

45 But little Johnny can't get a football scholorship to Vo-Tech! How the hell can we all live vicariously through him if he's not in college sports?

Posted by: Mrs. Smith at February 02, 2011 03:20 PM (Y09F8)

46 #23 The biggest problem with the 4-year colleges -- the liberal arts
degree. We cannot compete with science students around the world if we
force our own science majors to take breadth requirements.
This.

Also, if the core of undergrad science education wasn't so diluted by worthless elective requirements, grad students might finish their these work sooner as they wouldn't have to waste time in their first and second years taking formal courses.

/IIRC, European science grad students don't take formal courses at all. AmishDude (or Y-not) can put me some freakin' knowledge to this if they'd like.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at February 02, 2011 03:20 PM (9hSKh)

47 Well, you can forget about us buying anymore ads here, my good man.

Posted by: The University of Phoenix at February 02, 2011 03:20 PM (EW49d)

48 Plus, people leave college and sort of say, "Well! All done with that!" As in, I will never attempt intellectual growth again.

True dat. The Dimbulbs relish such deep thinkers because they're the Party's Voters-for-Life™

Posted by: ya2daup at February 02, 2011 03:20 PM (7GfKM)

49 42
The Egyptian Army's tanks are moving on the protesters.

Posted by: Armando at February 02, 2011 03:19 PM (N//pm)
My African Grey just said the most prescient thing I've heard in 5 days: "uh oh"

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:20 PM (x3YFz)

50 I remember tutoring one kid in English Comp. who managed to write a run-on sentence that ran for nearly three pages. It was like a stream-of-consciousness excerpt from Finnegan's Wake, only written by a chimp.

Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 03:21 PM (4Pleu)

51 Damn!
We almost had a meeting going...

Posted by: Assholes Anonymous at February 02, 2011 03:21 PM (3lx5O)

52 ace--what, about learning clubs? that's why I read all the time. I don't know 5 people I can learn anything from, except maybe pop culture shit.

Posted by: USS Diversity at February 02, 2011 03:21 PM (DLxD/)

53 Four year degree? Hell I'm one of the few of my friends who has a 4 year degree. The rest have a 5 or 6 year degree.

Posted by: Mr. Sar Kastik at February 02, 2011 03:21 PM (8fiyZ)

54 29
any comment on my related thoughts?

Yes, you are correct. Germans are weird.





Posted by: shibumi at February 02, 2011 03:22 PM (OKZrE)

55 47
Well, you can forget about us buying anymore ads here, my good man.


Posted by: The University of Phoenix at February 02, 2011 03:20 PM (EW49d)
Buddy of mine got his BA from University of Phoenix. He went to take his GRE for his MBA and scored in the basement. I was like... "Well, wtf did you expect from the university of suck?"

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:22 PM (x3YFz)

56 Best learning and growth experience I had was co-oping for the company I work for today. Forget all the bullshit labs and lectures you sit through in school, this was the actual read day to day shit that you were training for. To put it another way, I learned more in 1 semester of co-oping than I did in 2 semesters in school. When I graduated, I was so far ahead of my peers in terms of industry knowledge that I was handed my job on a silver platter.


Posted by: EC at February 02, 2011 03:22 PM (mAhn3)

57 Dr. Ray Stantz: "Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn't have to produce anything! You've never been out of college! You don't know what it's like out there! I've *worked* in the private sector. They expect *results*."

Posted by: Count de Monet at February 02, 2011 03:22 PM (XBM1t)

58 and I remember Clinton c 1994 calling for 100% college attendance for those not going onto other kinds of training... at a time when most of the western world had about 20-25% of their high school grads going to college. But it is an excellent way to pay salaries to leftist pseudo-intellectuals and a last chance to propagandise kids before they go into the real world and realize how much of their pay check gets sucked up in taxes.

Posted by: mallfly at February 02, 2011 03:22 PM (bJm7W)

59 I have two college degrees that I could wipe my ass with, one of which is in computer science. I work in a government job that required nothing more than a high school diploma, much less any kind of technical degree, listening to mindless fucknards babble on about Gucci or some such shit, all. Day. Long.

I should have just joined the army, and would have if I didn't have a disability, just so I could get the fuck away from American women.

Posted by: Bitter Government Employee at February 02, 2011 03:22 PM (7YKsD)

60 Freikorps Recruitment Office,

Right, I'm almost positive I read that in regards to pre/coming Nazi Germany and how the Nazis Nazified all the social/hobbyist/professional clubs so that you couldn't escape Naziism, ever.

Posted by: ace at February 02, 2011 03:22 PM (nj1bB)

61 Fuck you. We always use punctuations.

Posted by: The Chimps at February 02, 2011 03:22 PM (QKKT0)

62 I learned more in highschool than I did in college.
Also, I would venture to say 50% of the people at college were there because they "had to be".
We've so demonized a certain class of work in this country that people will blow hundreds of thousands of dollars just to say they aren't part of the class.
There were a bunch of people there would would have been much better off, and their parents wallets much better off, had they gone directly to vocational school.
Our society has fetishized the party nature of college and sold it as the next logical step after highschool.
Purple Avenger and Monty have had a bunch of posts on this subject. It is a debate worth having.
If I am not mistaken about germans, many of the kids start vocational work at the age of 16 or in highschool. You can pretty much tell what a kids aptitude is at the age of 16. How much better off would someone be if they started and eletrical apprenticeship at 16 instead of 22? Or millwrights, boilermakers, pipefitters, etc. Even kids good at math would be better off focusing on engineering in highschool than simply waiting for college
Our highschool system of Liberal Arts and assembly line production is a relic of the enlightenment and early industrial era, we need to change it conform with the times we live in.

Posted by: Ben at February 02, 2011 03:22 PM (wuv1c)

63 The purpose of college is to train and mold the minds of young leftists

Posted by: Cherry π at February 02, 2011 03:23 PM (+sBB4)

64 Oh, and of course, kill the humanities.
What took you so long?! You losing your mojo? Perhaps a multivitamin will help.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at February 02, 2011 03:23 PM (+/p72)

65 >>Although it's a FACT that Germans Are Weird

Easy there bub, we have been known to make clubs to deal with certain undesirable types and that kind of crack will get you your own club.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 02, 2011 03:23 PM (TMB3S)

66 >>>what, about learning clubs? that's why I read all the time. I don't know 5 people I can learn anything from, except maybe pop culture shit.

right but a lot of people like the social aspect of learning, plus, you know, discussion, recommendations. Arguments.

Posted by: ace at February 02, 2011 03:23 PM (nj1bB)

67 European science grad students don't take formal courses at all.
AmishDude (or Y-not) can put me some freakin' knowledge to this if
they'd like.

Not really. They take courses in their bachelor's degree which is roughly equivalent to our bachelor's plus master's. For the Ph.D., they don't have formal coursework, although that's changing a bit. They have informal seminars and what amounts to reading courses. This is verrrrrry general, as Europe isn't uniform it the way it does these things.

But they don't take high school courses out of high school. Each school has x slots for math students, you apply to be a math student and that's the slot you get if accepted.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (T0NGe)

68 The babes are hotter in college. There's that.

Posted by: Cherry π at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (+sBB4)

69
>>>pretty much every single possible area of interest has its discussion fora, from model railroading to wannabe physics geeks.

And it all started back in 1995 in AOL chat rooms.

(In no time at all, some really creepy shit was the topic of some chat rooms, too.)

Posted by: soothsayerwing plover at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (t2wZz)

70 53
Four year degree? Hell I'm one of the few of my friends who has a 4 year degree. The rest have a 5 or 6 year degree.

Posted by: Mr. Sar Kastik at February 02, 2011 03:21 PM (8fiyZ)
my BS took me 9 years. 'Course, there was that whole getting deployed every time I looked up thing.

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (x3YFz)

71 Here is a good video about a different way of looking at our education system.

Posted by: Ben at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (wuv1c)

72 Would you pay money to Joe Biden to do a brake job on your car?

I'd pay money to Joe Biden to see him do a brake job on his own car.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (3YYhR)

73
is that supposed to be 'flora,' btw?

Posted by: soothsayerwing plover at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (t2wZz)

74 I learned more in highschool than I did in college. with a public library card than in college or grad school.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (+/p72)

75 Also, as a social scientist I suppose I should defend my ilk. But I'm the first to admit and agree with the sentiment in this thread. The bubble is strong here, as is the demand for regurgitation.

My favorite class to teach is government budgeting. Every semester I've taught it at some point a student stops me and says something along the lines of what you're saying about [supply/demand economics or debt or accountability] is the opposite of what I learned in [economics or a different political science class]. Sadly, that's when I know I'm doing my job correctly.

Posted by: Doc at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (G0vxC)

76 Where did we get this idea that learning begins freshman year of
college and, by implication, ends senior year (or, realistically --
junior year)?

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

Posted by: Pre-requisite for Slacking-Off 101 at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (7GfKM)

77 23 The biggest problem with the 4-year colleges -- the liberal arts degree.
It's not necessarily the liberal arts degree - it's the expansion of liberal arts as a genre. Having engineers or math nuts study English or History is valuable.
It's the invention and force-feeding of made-up things like "Women's Studies" or "Peace and Global Studies" as degrees that have helped destroy the college system.
Some girl just got an MA in "Beatles Studies". True story.

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (AXHCj)

78 Germans are weird? Have you seen some of those Japanese game shows ( and robots )?

Posted by: DavidM at February 02, 2011 03:25 PM (R/e5b)

79 It all proves my theory: Germans love David Hasselhoff.
And, thus, are weird.

Posted by: Norm MacDonald at February 02, 2011 03:25 PM (AXHCj)

80 Oh, and of course, kill the humanities.
What took you so long?! You losing your mojo? Perhaps a multivitamin will help.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at February 02, 2011 03:23 PM (+/p72)
I haven't even mentioned: multivariable calculus should be required of all college graduates and the pernicious influence of law schools.I can only do so much.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:26 PM (T0NGe)

81 Well, ace, we have a huge split here between Harvard (not everyone needs a college degree) and Obama (we need more college graduates). What to make of this? Well, I have some thoughts, which I will just list.

1. Harvard has realized that as there are more college graduates, the value of their degree declines. Not good for selling a Harvard education.

2. The Harvard guys are having a hard time finding a plumber.

3. The scam of telling people that a college degree guarantees more income is about to be debunked in a major media outlet. (I have noted for some time that if you remove doctors, dentists, lawyers, and MBA's from Harvard, the average salary isn't that much different from those with less education.)

4. The elitist/liberal idea that college is the hallmark of an educated and prosperous people is becoming unraveled, due to the internet. Some of the best posters on various sites I read are business owners and blue-collar people without a diploma.

5. People who have diplomas are realizing it isn't worth squat.

I am sure there are more reasons, but I see that the Egyptian army is moving in to disperse the crowds, so I am going back to the TV.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 02, 2011 03:26 PM (Fo83G)

82 You can't learn to wake up drunk and naked and no car keys in the middle of some random apartment, if you don't go to college.

Posted by: Cherry π at February 02, 2011 03:26 PM (+sBB4)

83
I just wanna know how one becomes a janitor because Ace here is very interested in pursuing a career in the custodial arts.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at February 02, 2011 03:26 PM (QMtmy)

84 I belong to a golf club and occasionally go to a gentlemens club so I'm good.

Posted by: Mr. Sar Kastik at February 02, 2011 03:26 PM (8fiyZ)

85 any comment on my related thoughts?

When I lived in Germany, I went to the college prep New Language Gymnasium. (French/English) Most people, after elementary school, went to the Realschule which was really more vo-tech oriented. The school system made this decision for you after the 5th grade.

I don't think Americans would tolerate this system because some unqualifiable number of students who could have been successful in higher ed never get the chance to try.

Because of that feeling, almost all American students are forced in to "College Prep" courses (although the Germans would laugh at our courses) at which many do so poorly that Colleges have to do remedial work.

Most people get too much education in the wrong things, or in things that hold no interest for them.

Posted by: toby928™ at February 02, 2011 03:27 PM (GTbGH)

86 I read, forget when, that the Germans were just queer for clubs, and
every German belonged to several of them, from professional type clubs
to intellectual interest clubs to hobbyist clubs to boardgame clubs.
Americans I don't think ever matched the Germans for club-joiningness... I always wonder if
Americans wouldn't be better off if that sort of institutional, formal
parallel civil society weren't in existence here.
----------------------
Could we have snazzy uniforms with cool badges and shit? Maybe do drill-team kinda stuff, and lots of calisthenics, and discuss our awesome culture?
The Japanese are nuts about club-joining, as well. Unlike the Germans, they haven't been embarrassed out of going whole-hog with the uniforms.
They also share a penchant for bizarre porn. I say you can judge a culture's trustworthiness by its group cohesion and porn.


Posted by: schizuki at February 02, 2011 03:27 PM (M+lbD)

87 It's not necessarily the liberal arts degree - it's the expansion of
liberal arts as a genre. Having engineers or math nuts study English or
History is valuable.

Nope. You don't need high school after high school.

You don't need to pay tuition to belong to a book club.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:27 PM (T0NGe)

88 We cannot compete with science students around the world if we force our own science majors to take breadth requirements.

The problem is that the first two years of most non-technical college curricula are mostly remedial crap that the kids should have mastered before ever entering college. Which means that the high schools are big boatloads of FAIL (which we knew already).

Frankly, I think the "personal growth" aspect of learning can be very well met by on-line courses, book clubs, chataquas, and seminars; and much trade-skills can be learned in the old-fashioned way of on-the-job apprenticeships. Also, kids need to lose the elitist stigma for the trades and service sectors. Being able to weld is actually a more valuable skill for most of these kids than being able to quote from the works of Verlaine or David Hume.

I don't think we should abandon the study of the Classics, by the way -- there is a profound need in our culture to have people who are deeply versed in the cultures and traditions of the liberalized western world. The problem here is that the Academy doesn't do that kind of teaching anymore -- it's all gender-studies and sociology and post-modernist theory and other such meaningless crap. (And the world really doesn't need ten thousand graduates with majors in Ancient Greek or Comparative Religion.)

Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 03:27 PM (4Pleu)

89 Some girl just got an MA in "Beatles Studies". True story.

Hell of an ROI on that one. Her parents must be so proud idiots.

Posted by: Andy at February 02, 2011 03:27 PM (veZ9n)

90 >>>The biggest problem with the 4-year colleges -- the liberal arts degree.

As it's currently configured, yes, but don't forget that at one point a History degree or English degree meant something too. Couldn't really get a job with those (unless you were going to be a teacher or professor), but the degrees themselves were fairly rigorous. Like, you wouldn't chuckle at them.

You might wonder about the practical usefulness of them to anything but a professor or teacher but you wouldn't have doubted they entailed real mental work.

Now? Not so much. Though I'm guessing History is one of the holdouts, mostly. Conservative-tilting, in attitude and respect for tradition (it's HISTORY, after all, attracts a certain mindset), so maybe that's held out a bit.

Posted by: ace at February 02, 2011 03:27 PM (nj1bB)

91 If people have the yearning for this sort of thing, they can have it,
and they don't need to be in college for it. A mechanic who likes
reading can join a book club, can't he?

The Sunday book thread here at AoSHQ has put to me a huge bunch of knowledge, as well as the realization that I haven't been reading nearly as much as I had, say, a decade ago. Now if only I participated more in that thread, instead of the ONTs.

Posted by: ya2daup at February 02, 2011 03:27 PM (7GfKM)

92 Ace, I have a perfectly fine 19 year old son, that had some learning disabilities. He could not keep up like his siblings in Catholic School so I put him into public with special needs.Because he could not be squished into a round hole I was pushed year after year to drug him. He was a good, personable, likeable child and did not get into any trouble. He was just not academically inclined. I would sit at a table with the 'experts,' encouraging me to drug him. I would say, "is he sitting still,"YES,is he fighting, NO, Is he causing trouble, NO... I would then say, wellthen he is doing good.If the lefties had their way, and I was stupid, he would have been Ritalined to death and God knows what else. He would have been pegged "special" and maybe even have gotten a check for life. Instead, he is flying into the future. He joined the club of getting a paycheck.

Posted by: madamex at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (ice9D)

93 When books were too expensive to own, and there was no media beside printed paper, degrees were coveted and great to have. Those days are long gone. I am the only person in my family with a degree, and Ihave an advanced degree. It serves its purpose and taught me a lot. But my siblings are far smarter than I ever will be despite not having a sheepskin to hang on their walls. We can educate ourselves ala Lincoln in the droves these days. A college education is simply a formal education. Unfortunately, when reading applications for work, people at all levels of education lack the ability to write. That is sad and getting sadder.

Posted by: rightzilla at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (ujT7B)

94 <i>Although it's a FACT that Germans Are Weird, I always wonder if
Americans wouldn't be better off if that sort of institutional, formal
parallel civil society weren't in existence here.</i>

Institutional? Formal? Wow. Just what we need is another government program set up to help us find other folks that want to talk about shit we want to talk about and learn about. WTF... You must believe someone funded the tea parties setting up their websites and facebooks and such. Cause us idiot Americans can't piss in a pot without institutional formal structures set up by our betters to help us do shit.

You are off your rocker today Ace. Find a hobo and get drunk. Seriously.

Posted by: Stephanie at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (hGYL3)

95 The government-media comlplex has led all the soft heads to beleive that they are entitled to a college education and a house. Government meddling in these markets, including subsidies, has led to bubbles and overinflated costs in both education and housing. Government is the problem.

Posted by: California Red at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (7uWb8)

96 OT: Senate to vote today on ObamaCare repeal

Posted by: Cherry π at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (+sBB4)

97 Buddy of mine got his BA from University of Phoenix.

I got a BS from UoP. When I graduated, my MiL bought be a sweatshirt with the school logo on it.

On the logo, they spelled "University" wrong.


Posted by: wiserbud at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (EW49d)

98 discussion, recommendations. Arguments.
You mean like a Civil War roundtable, for example? I joined one of those, it was a bunch of guys trying to prove how much more they knew than you did. Maybe I just haven't joined the right clubs.

Posted by: USS Diversity at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (DLxD/)

99 1's a nice reason but it basically amounts to a four year vacation
For a truly relaxing vacation, you should give Engineering School a try Ace. Nothing but sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll....

Posted by: maddogg at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (OlN4e)

100 Flap, if you're going to settle - since you're not going NAVY - might as well go Marine Corps.

(waits for inevitable howls)

and, well DUH Harvard.

It might be nice if returned to the educational model of my parents' youth. College prep, and Voc Ed/Occupational programs which actually prepared young people for the workforce. Tighten up the basic requirements so that everyone, regardless of track, graduates with a reasonable amount of literacy and numeracy.

I think there's this notion (and Ace has written about this at length, I believe) that the trades and occupations are a last resort and only for dummies. That's just not the case.

I work in a construction-related agency. My colleagues who went through the Voc Ed tracks all those years ago, yet never went to college, are every bit as sharp and articulate as the guys with P.E. after their names. Their jobs require continual training and study in I-Codes, which are updated every three years. They also write a hell of a lot better than some of the younger, college-educated folks.

Posted by: MDH3 at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (ShSoH)

101 I read, forget when, that the Germans were just queer for clubs,
Or so the Germans would have us believe . . .

Posted by: Norm MacDonald at February 02, 2011 03:29 PM (AXHCj)

102 Right, I'm almost positive I read that in regards to pre/coming Nazi Germany and how the Nazis Nazified all the social/hobbyist/professional clubs so that you couldn't escape Naziism, ever.
True. I just finished Defying Hitler by Sebastian Haffner. He trained as a lawyer in Germany in the 30's and one of the points he made was that the you could not hold a job, attend elementary school, high school or college without being a member of at least one (and maybe several)Nazi-sponsored organizations. Unless you were a Jew, of course. Then you couldn't do those things at all.

Posted by: Cicero at February 02, 2011 03:29 PM (QKKT0)

103 "I read, forget when, that the Germans were just queer for clubs, and every German belonged to several of them, from professional type clubs to intellectual interest clubs to hobbyist clubs to boardgame clubs...."

.... the Nazi Party....

Posted by: moi at February 02, 2011 03:30 PM (Ez4Ql)

104 I heard a college kid interviewd on the radio this week and he sounded like a 14 year old idiot.
This is a long-running scam. Politicians get credit for working "to ensure every child has a shot at college" and making more and more aid available. Colleges just up their tuition to suck up any aid increase. And the kids major in...English.
Want to know how majoring in English can help you in the real world? When you go to write that letter to the electric company begging them to turn your power back on, you can do it in form of an haiku:
Un-ending darkness.
Jersey Shore not taped this week.
Check is forthcoming.
College!

Posted by: CJ at February 02, 2011 03:30 PM (9KqcB)

105 I meant to add that a key to a good education used to be a good library on campus. Since we no longer need a brick and morter library, we no longer NEED the university. This is shown by the fact so many offer classes on line and you never need to hear a lecture, sit in a class or attend a symposium held on campus. Close em!

Posted by: rightzilla at February 02, 2011 03:30 PM (ujT7B)

106
I don't know about other schools but Harvard is fixated on diversity...and cutting their greenhouse gas emissions by 30% by 2016.

No shit.

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:30 PM (t2wZz)

107 if WE returned. Geez. Speaking of inarticulate.

Posted by: MDH3 at February 02, 2011 03:30 PM (ShSoH)

108




“If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library.”

Frank Zappa

Posted by: Rev Dr E Buzz at February 02, 2011 03:30 PM (tcSZb)

109 77

23 The biggest problem with the 4-year colleges -- the liberal arts degree.

It's not necessarily the liberal arts degree - it's the expansion of
liberal arts as a genre. Having engineers or math nuts study English or
History is valuable.

It's the invention and force-feeding of made-up things like "Women's
Studies" or "Peace and Global Studies" as degrees that have helped
destroy the college system.

Some girl just got an MA in "Beatles Studies". True story.

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 03:24 PM (AXHCj)
The only + to having engineers or math nuts study english or history is to get them exposed to the little hottie tramps so they might get laid and keep their motivation up.Most of them already excelled in English and have to write papers anyway, so they just learn it from the APA guide readily available at the bookstore.
I got a C+ in "Law and Literature" because I ignored the "gay" part of Melville's Billy Budd didn't have time to read Dostievsky while grinding through a semester filled with statistical mechanics and quantum physics. The dept chair laughed.

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:30 PM (x3YFz)

110 We do it here with politics, and of course pretty much every single possible area of interest has its discussion fora, from model railroading to wannabe physics geeks.

AOSHQ. Come for the politics, stay for the longbows.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 02, 2011 03:30 PM (AZGON)

111 I learned everything I know from the AoS newsletter. Got the free pudding phone with the $5000 subscription. Sign up now!

Posted by: Cherry π at February 02, 2011 03:31 PM (+sBB4)

112 Add into this the stuff they don't say but everyone knows like "it's easy to get laid in college.")
Man, I really got lost somewhere down the line. Then again, where I went to university, the women who liked men didn't speak English and the women who spoke English didn't like men, and it took me a while to pick up some Mandarin. Ni hao, y'all.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 03:31 PM (ujg0T)

113 Although it's a FACT that Germans Are Weird, I always wonder if
Americans wouldn't be better off if that sort of institutional, formal
parallel civil society weren't in existence here.

Except...unless I'm mistaken, it once did. It died a horrible death in the 60's, with little more than shambling remnants still lurching about today.

I do not believe this is a coincidence. Monopoly on thought and social acceptance, and all that. No wonder they want control of the Internet--the first real cracks in their prison walls...

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord© at February 02, 2011 03:31 PM (GBXon)

114 Could we have snazzy uniforms with cool badges and shit?
Well, isn't there some "Murphy's Law" that says the side with the cooler uniforms loses the war?

Posted by: Dr. Varno at February 02, 2011 03:32 PM (QMtmy)

115 Some girl just got an MA in "Beatles Studies". True story.Sa-weet! Then I'm getting a doctorate in Ramones.

Posted by: USS Diversity at February 02, 2011 03:32 PM (DLxD/)

116 I haven't even mentioned: multivariable calculus should be required of all college graduates and the pernicious influence of law schools.
Sure.
But at least concede the point that they should speak proper English; in other words. not Engrish.
(And you know as well as I do thatmany times at university, the majority of the math dep't has not adopted 'english as the first language' approach with its faculty).

Posted by: laceyunderalls at February 02, 2011 03:32 PM (+/p72)

117
the experience of college life and the intellectual growth it offers



Drunken projectile vomiting counts as intellectual growth, I imagine.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at February 02, 2011 03:32 PM (TAjuH)

118 There's a job market?

Posted by: t-bird at February 02, 2011 03:32 PM (FcR7P)

119 Frank Zappa
Posted by: Rev Dr E Buzz at February 02, 2011 03:30 PM (tcSZb) Titties and Beer. Forever.

Posted by: garrett at February 02, 2011 03:32 PM (3lx5O)

120 What always amazes was the number of nazi war criminals who had phds. They either handed them out like candy between the wars or the so called elitists are seriously bent and have to be watched 24/7.

Posted by: moi at February 02, 2011 03:32 PM (Ez4Ql)

121 You might wonder about the practical usefulness of them to anything but a
professor or teacher but you wouldn't have doubted they entailed real
mental work.



Now? Not so much. Though I'm guessing History is one of the holdouts,
mostly. Conservative-tilting, in attitude and respect for tradition
(it's HISTORY, after all, attracts a certain mindset), so maybe that's
held out a bit.

Maybe, because all of the history-leaning people who want an easy time of it head toward something that ends in "studies" but I think the only branch of the humanities that has any seriousness and intellectual heft at the moment are classicists. VDH and Paul Rahe are hard-core.

Even the Ivys will let you slide. Look at Michelle Obama's thesis. She had a higher probability of that thing being rejected at Rutgers than at Princeton (and even that probability is very low).

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:33 PM (T0NGe)

122 81 Harvard has realized that as there are more college graduates, the value of their degree declines.
If this trend continues, it will also mean the expansion of childhood and the decline of adult life.
If everyone gets a college degree, then a grad degree becomes an essential ingredient for those who need that extra bump, much like a college degree was 30 years ago. More and more people, then, will put off working to go immediately into grad school and go deeper into debt.
They won't be out into the working world until 25.

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 03:33 PM (AXHCj)

123 What always amazes was the number of nazi war criminals who had phds.
They either handed them out like candy between the wars or the so called
elitists are seriously bent and have to be watched 24/7.

I go with Option B for the win.

Posted by: Cherry π at February 02, 2011 03:33 PM (+sBB4)

124 97
Buddy of mine got his BA from University of Phoenix.

I got a BS from UoP. When I graduated, my MiL bought be a sweatshirt with the school logo on it.

On the logo, they spelled "University" wrong.




Posted by: wiserbud at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (EW49d)
That's UoP for ya.

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:33 PM (x3YFz)

125 My wife also got her BA from UoP.

Here's my analysis of that "school" just from the course work I saw her do: fuckall.

I actually took two of her courses for her because she was travelling during one, and didn't want/wasn't able to do another. One was an accounting class, and the other was algebra. Both were highschool level work and not anything close to what I took in a real 4 year college. She paid (or rather her company did) close to $18k for the courses she took to receive her degree and I truly believe the value of her degree was a fraction of that.

UoP is a nice concept, but the content is horribly substandard. Do not let a friend/relative sign up if you care about their learning.

Posted by: EC at February 02, 2011 03:33 PM (mAhn3)

126 I learned more in highschool than I did in college. with a public library card than in college or grad school.

I think this is true of most self-directed people. We were speaking the other day of the Myers-Briggs personality types, and I'd bet that most of us morons fall heavily into the INTJ/ISTJ profile. (Scientists, math nerds, lawyers, computer programmers, etc.)

A lot of people in the world, however, either can't or won't self-direct in this way. Many of these people need external affirmation, hence the desire for a credential.

Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 03:33 PM (4Pleu)

127 Add into this the stuff they don't say but everyone knows like "it's easy to get laid in college."
Only if you lived on campus. If you went to Temple and took the subway home very day, less so.

Posted by: CJ at February 02, 2011 03:33 PM (9KqcB)

128 Rock bottom is a college education.

Posted by: sifty at February 02, 2011 03:34 PM (KyE50)

129 Nope. You don't need high school after high school.You do, because:
The problem is that the first two years of most non-technical college curricula are mostly remedial crap that the kids should have mastered before ever entering college. Which means that the high schools are big boatloads of FAIL

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 03:34 PM (AXHCj)

130 very every day...damn

Posted by: CJ at February 02, 2011 03:34 PM (9KqcB)

131 Quest For Herb

Posted by: Murphy's Law at February 02, 2011 03:34 PM (3lx5O)

132 Could we have snazzy uniforms with cool badges and shit?
Wouldn't that make us Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts?
Tis not the moron/ette way!

Posted by: laceyunderalls at February 02, 2011 03:34 PM (+/p72)

133 Since the Obama has taken over the Student Loan industry - the Republicans have an opportunity to implement a structural reform to Higher Education and this Harvard study could be useful. I would structure the baseline loans to cover the entry level material; and then let the loans be private and commercial. Tie the loans for the advanced work to industry - let me, as an employer, get a tax break for underwriting a future employee's education - rather then 5K of their continuing education. The number of useless degree will wither quickly to those that can be supported by trust funds.

Posted by: Jean at February 02, 2011 03:35 PM (WkuV6)

134 125
My wife also got her BA from UoP.

Here's my analysis of that "school" just from the course work I saw her do: fuckall.

I
actually took two of her courses for her because she was travelling
during one, and didn't want/wasn't able to do another. One was an
accounting class, and the other was algebra. Both were highschool level
work and not anything close to what I took in a real 4 year college.
She paid (or rather her company did) close to $18k for the courses she
took to receive her degree and I truly believe the value of her degree
was a fraction of that.

UoP is a nice concept, but the content
is horribly substandard. Do not let a friend/relative sign up if you
care about their learning.


Posted by: EC at February 02, 2011 03:33 PM (mAhn3)
Company my wife works for doesn't recognize degrees from UoP.

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:35 PM (x3YFz)

135 Do You Want To Dance?

Posted by: RAMONES at February 02, 2011 03:36 PM (3lx5O)

136 There's compellingalternatives out there to a 4 yr degree:
Bluto:Seven years of college down the drain. Might as well join the fucking Peace Corps.

Posted by: Count de Monet at February 02, 2011 03:36 PM (XBM1t)

137 97 I got a BS from UoP. When I graduated, my MiL bought be a sweatshirt with the school logo on it.On the logo, they spelled "University" wrong.Posted by: wiserbud at February 02, 2011 03:28 PM (EW49d)
Along the same line, I graduated from Washington State University. They sent us our diplomas. Iquickly took mine for framing. Got it back and the same day got anotehr diploma in the mail.....a letter that came with it asked to destroy the first one because theyhad spelled "PRIVILEGES" wrong. (I never proof read it. Did not notice in the rush to frame) I still have theincorrectone hanging in my home office.

Posted by: rightzilla at February 02, 2011 03:36 PM (ujT7B)

138 34 I can up your students' comments from some of my own former ones:
"nobody should be discriminated against for the color of their sink" (ok, proofreading error caused by not really proofreading, just hitting spellcheck, but was it too much to, LIKE, ask? especially when it was in the first freaking paragraph?)
and "I really have an interest in breeding hogs from my own genetics" (ok, I get what the student was trying to say...but I don't think the student realized the implications of what was really said here...again, first paragraph, some proofreading and thought would have fixed theproblem;was it too much to ask?)

There were others, and it is a sad reflection that those papers crossed my desk 6 years ago. I'm supposed to support college education, because I was employed by college education -- but nah, I just can't. Right now for the majority of students and for society a four year degree is more useless than tits on the afore mentioned boar.
I'm thinking of going back and getting a two year tech degree -- any suggestions? Nothing to do with education or social work though; I want gainful employment and my soul intact...and I want at least some payola for my troubles.

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 03:36 PM (5/yRG)

139 Harvard, if the current President and Administration are any indication, you are absolutely right.

Posted by: t-bird at February 02, 2011 03:36 PM (FcR7P)

140 They also share a penchant for bizarre porn. I say you can judge a culture's trustworthiness by its group cohesion and porn.

A pr0n club. Now that's inspirational. See. We can expand our intelligence with the new media.

Posted by: Soona at February 02, 2011 03:37 PM (jHv0E)

141 80I
haven't even mentioned: multivariable calculus should be required of
all college graduates and the pernicious influence of law schools.I can only do so much.Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:26 PM (T0NGe)

AmishDude! You rock!

Posted by: ya2daup at February 02, 2011 03:37 PM (7GfKM)

142 55 Buddy
of mine got his BA from University of Phoenix. He went to take his GRE
for his MBA and scored in the basement. I was like... "Well, wtf did
you expect from the university of suck?"


Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:22 PM (x3YFz)
The general GRE exam assesses only basic mathematics (nothing higher than algebra and geometry) and English-language skills. I don't think the quality of university education has much impact on GRE performance.

Posted by: DKCZ at February 02, 2011 03:37 PM (0YKvL)

143 The year I spent at Berkeley on gen ed credits was a huge waste of time. Learned more on my own about English and Western Civ. Learned more in the art school I attended, which is in fact a sort of trade school.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 02, 2011 03:37 PM (AZGON)

144 I think that the future of higher education does belong on the web, if you could use it to leverage the truly gifted teachers out there rather than having to settle for a grad student drone.

Imagine if every motivated physics student had been able to take lectures from Richard Feynman.

Posted by: toby928™ at February 02, 2011 03:37 PM (GTbGH)

145 No thread on education would be complete without THIS

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 03:38 PM (AXHCj)

146 contrast this with the regimes war on vocational schools.

Posted by: joeindc44 at February 02, 2011 03:38 PM (QxSug)

147 There is a horrible radio ad in the DC market from UMBC - something like get two masters degrees, nothing makes a resume look better the TWO. A second Master's degree would make me very leary of hiring a professional student.

Posted by: Jean at February 02, 2011 03:38 PM (WkuV6)

148 I once asked someone -- sympathetic to, ah, alternative lifestyles -- when and how the furry thing took off. I already knew the answer, (internet and the infinite variety of communities) I just wanted to see how frank the other party was.

Posted by: fb at February 02, 2011 03:38 PM (G60Nl)

149 I wish I understood matrix maths better. Crucial to computer graphics these days.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 02, 2011 03:38 PM (AZGON)

150 Now? Not so much. Though I'm guessing History is one of the holdouts, mostly. Conservative-tilting, in attitude and respect for tradition (it's HISTORY, after all, attracts a certain mindset), so maybe that's held out a bit.
Ace, I have a degree in History. I received it in 2006.
I can tell you that history is barely holding on. The departments have two types of teaches. The old guard who teach history the way it was meant to be taught and then the younger teachers who are more socialogists than history teachers. They're people who teach "Women's Studies" "Black Studies" but also teach history courses.
My best teachers in college were over the age of 60. My worst teachers in college were under the age of 60. As the old guard retires, history in college will become more like the pop-history we see in bookstores these days with the likes of Doris Kearns Goodwin.

Posted by: Ben at February 02, 2011 03:39 PM (wuv1c)

151 135 Do You Want To Dance?
Three credits right there, thanks!

I haven't watched that fuck Smith since Katrina, now I know whay. He's horrible. And you know these media pricks are just waiting for people to start getting mowed down.

Posted by: USS Diversity at February 02, 2011 03:39 PM (DLxD/)

152 We were speaking the other day of the Myers-Briggs personality types, and I'd bet that most of us morons fall heavily into the INTJ/ISTJ profile
Normally I find this sort of analysis as mere psychobabble, but M-B just fascinates me for some reason. I guess because it seems to be true when I look at my own evaluation and others I know. It's usually spot-on and as much as I hate to admit it (as we were *forced* to do this at work), it has helped in my day-to-day communications.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at February 02, 2011 03:40 PM (+/p72)

153 If I could do it all over again, I would skip college and use that time to learn three or four languages. You could write your own ticket if you had that skill and half a brain.

Posted by: Mr. Sar Kastik at February 02, 2011 03:40 PM (8fiyZ)

154 A pr0n club. Now that's inspirational.

Pretty good idea.

But I don't know if some of us are willing to really tackle the hardest issues of the day at our meetings.

Posted by: sifty at February 02, 2011 03:40 PM (KyE50)

155 23 And teaching science, engineering, and math majors to be able to write coherently and well, possibly understand ethics and historical ramifications isn't such a bad thing. In this regard the humanities are important: it's the subject matter being taught and a lot of the teachers that are the problem (see my last post above -- no way do I go back to teaching comp if I have to deal with lackwits, toadies, and kool aide drinkers...and that's just the administration).
To be fair and balanced I believe liberal arts students should be required to take hard science classes as well -- but that goes back to perhaps getting rid of the lackwits, toadies, and kool aide drinkers...

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 03:41 PM (5/yRG)

156
fb, indeed.

the internet pushed along the normalization of a lotta wacky shit.

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:41 PM (t2wZz)

157 50
I remember tutoring one kid in English Comp. who managed to write a
run-on sentence that ran for nearly three pages. It was like a
stream-of-consciousness excerpt from Finnegan's Wake, only written by a chimp.
Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 03:21 PM (4Pleu)

How come we weren't told about this? That was "Mission Accomplished", man! We demand reparations for our forced sentences of indentured servitude!

Posted by: An infinite number of monkeys typing away on an infinite number of typewriters ... at February 02, 2011 03:41 PM (7GfKM)

158 Company my wife works for doesn't recognize degrees from UoP.

I think people are starting to catch on. UoP is a great way to busy-work yourself to a degree that's official sounding. However, when you look at what you had to do, or rather the quality of work you were asked to produce, it is sorely lacking.

Posted by: EC at February 02, 2011 03:41 PM (mAhn3)

159 ISTJ here.

I enjoyed college and did grow intellectually. I just wish I'd worked a little harder. Going from a small, Catholic girls high school (SHUT UP) to a large, urban university was...interesting and had its distractions.

The high school I attended was very, very rigorous and did prepare me for college-level work.

Posted by: MDH3 at February 02, 2011 03:42 PM (ShSoH)

160 AmishDude - multivariate calculus, hell, society would be greatly improved if everyone had to pass a decent stats course.

Posted by: Jean at February 02, 2011 03:42 PM (WkuV6)

161 The problem isn't necessarily four year colleges. The problem is the useless four year degrees.

Four years of hard science, engineering, or accounting = good.

Four years of sociology, ___ studies, philosophy = bad.

I'm all for vocational schools. You don't need four years of college to run a machine shop or foundry.

Posted by: Grim at February 02, 2011 03:42 PM (gyNYk)

162
Do you guys have the internet in 1995? It was my first year on the 'net. I briefly had CompuServe and then it got bought by AOL in 1996.

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:42 PM (t2wZz)

163 Well, isn't there some "Murphy's Law" that says the side with the cooler uniforms loses the war?



The Sukhomlinov Effect.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at February 02, 2011 03:43 PM (TAjuH)

164 I have a theory about the "Hope Scholarship" that is being provided by some states. How it works in Tennessee, from my understanding, is that any student who gets a good enough GPA in high school gets most-to-all of their in-state tuition covered at the state's universities, provided they keep up their GPA at this level (at/over a 3.0).

This leads students to (a) seek out easier classes and degree programs and (b) only care about their GPA and whatever is done to keep it. This does not mean actually knowing or interpreting the material, but just being able to spit it out when required. As such we are expected (by the students) to make the process as easy as possible for them by providing study sheets or exact copies of the exam and detailed explanations of what all right answers are - which sounds very familiar to the standard complaint about NCLB in high schools; teachers teach to the test. So when someone like myself comes along and demands thought and intellectual interpretation of theory/fact/policy alternatives the students become deer in the headlights.

But it's the ability to take in and interpret information that I feel is the most important if these kids are actually going to use their degree in the government or business world. It's a skill that is rapidly declining among today's youth.

Posted by: Doc at February 02, 2011 03:43 PM (G0vxC)

165
In 95-96, there wasn't much going on in the WWW.

Except for stock stuff.

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:43 PM (t2wZz)

166 Three credits right there, thanks!
I should have failed that semester...'do you wanna dance'...extra credit -
You Should Never Have Opened That Door

Posted by: RAMONES at February 02, 2011 03:43 PM (3lx5O)

167 OT -

Egyptian Facebook activist, leader of online group supporting protesters has been arrested in Cairo - Wired http://bit.ly/fEaUYQ

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at February 02, 2011 03:44 PM (9hSKh)

168 I want to join a whatever club Charlie Sheen sponsors, 'cause I'm just crazy for lernin' an' shit.

Posted by: Fritz at February 02, 2011 03:44 PM (GwPRU)

169 I got a college degree.
Now I pay high school graduates good money to fix my car and my house.

Posted by: CJ at February 02, 2011 03:45 PM (9KqcB)

170
When I had AOL (2.0, heh) in '96, their browser was painfully slow so I was stuck in the AOL universe of chatrooms and waiting for AOL Mail.

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:45 PM (t2wZz)

171 I'm up to blame the teacher's union-administration-testing complex. In HS, it was the district's stated goal that 75% of students score above average on the state standardized exams. The high school had the goal of getting everyone possible into a 4-year school. Community college was looked down upon even as a stepping stone into a university. In CA, CC courses cost about $100-150 and the state has two year course plans to guarantee entry into the University of California system as a transfer. It would be stupid not to go that course.
Never though did the high school try to tell students that they were preparing them for life after school. That wasn't their problem.

Posted by: dudeinsantacruz at February 02, 2011 03:45 PM (uIYDE)

172 In 95-96, there wasn't much going on in the WWW.

I downloaded my first guitar tab in 1994. Van Halen's "316".

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 02, 2011 03:46 PM (3YYhR)

173 156

I forgot to add that the other party did provide the answer I expected, namely, the Internet.

Posted by: fb at February 02, 2011 03:46 PM (G60Nl)

174 161 Philosophy (if taught by a really good, old school, classicaly trained teacher) doesn't belong on that list imho. It has it's place...but it's place isn't with substandard students or substandard instructors, working from a substandard curriculum. There's the rub.

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 03:46 PM (5/yRG)

175 wow my post at 150 is replete with spelling errors. I need to stop writing here while working on invoices. At least I'm making the mistakes here and not where it counts.

Posted by: Ben at February 02, 2011 03:46 PM (wuv1c)

176 hey, speaking of online education, wasn't there someone here who's studying at WGU?

Posted by: MDH3 at February 02, 2011 03:46 PM (ShSoH)

177 UoP is a joke and, unfortunatley, makes alternative education styles suffer as a result. When someone tells me they have a dgree fromUoP and they say it without understanding what a waste that was, I discount them for their lack of good, common, sense.

Posted by: rightzilla at February 02, 2011 03:46 PM (ujT7B)

178 The problem is that K-12 education in this country is a joke and colleges have adapted to that reality. People don't suddenly become frivolous morons when they enter college.

Posted by: Abe Froman at February 02, 2011 03:47 PM (uZJOg)

179 Do you guys have the internet in 1995? It was my first year on the 'net. I briefly had CompuServe and then it got bought by AOL in 1996.
Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:42 PM (t2wZz)
I got dialup in 1997. Used it to pick up chicks and debate politics. Still debating...

Posted by: CJ at February 02, 2011 03:47 PM (9KqcB)

180 Do You Want To Dance? Three credits right there, thanks! I haven't watched that fuck Smith since Katrina, now I know whay. He's horrible. And you know these media pricks are just waiting for people to start getting mowed down.
Posted by: USS Diversity at February 02, 2011 03:39 PM (DLxD/)

Shep: Is that a tank?
Reporter on site (ROS): It looks kind of like a tank.
Shep: No. I think it's an armored personnel carrier.
ROS: Your right. It's an armored personnel carrier.
Shep: Someone here at the studio said it was a tank.
ROS: Yes. I think it's a tank.

It was an M113 armored personnel carrier.

Posted by: Soona at February 02, 2011 03:48 PM (jHv0E)

181 >>>Institutional? Formal? Wow. Just what we need is another government program set up to help us find other folks that want to talk about shit we want to talk about and learn about. WTF... You are off your rocker today Ace. Find a hobo and get drunk. Seriously.

Huh? "Institution" and "formal" do not mean "government." The Kiwanis club is a formal insitution, with minutes, officers, meetings, etc., but it has nothing to do with Government.

I am just distinguishing between a real club-type club with regular meetings and guests and the like as opposed to just hanging out with friends.

Posted by: ace at February 02, 2011 03:48 PM (nj1bB)

182 Off the charts ENTP here.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at February 02, 2011 03:48 PM (+/p72)

183
How long did it take to DL, 4 hours?

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:48 PM (t2wZz)

184 164
Precisely. College has morphed from a place where people learn how to think into a place where people learn what to think and how to take the past of least resistance.
BTW, I agree with the History post earlier. It's quite liberal as an institution, and the "Studies" profs have taken over the departments.

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 03:48 PM (AXHCj)

185
I just realized I have wasted the last 15 years online.

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:49 PM (t2wZz)

186 Had internet access in '91 through a dialup account on a SunOS machine at a school. It was a few more years before I saw someone using actual graphical applications to use Usenet or FTP or IRC or email.

Posted by: fb at February 02, 2011 03:49 PM (G60Nl)

187 (Good Guys) don't wear white

Posted by: THREAT:STATUS=MINOR at February 02, 2011 03:49 PM (3lx5O)

188 The year I spent at Berkeley on gen ed credits was a huge waste of time. Learned more on my own about English and Western Civ. Learned more in the art school I attended, which is in fact a sort of trade school.
Copy that. But I stayed on for the four year tour of duty, and grad. With the crowd I ran with (see "Ni hao, y'all" remark above), the rule was if you could not hack Engineering, go Pre-Med, and if you could not hack Pre-Med, go Business. I ended up a bean counter.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 03:49 PM (ujg0T)

189 When I had AOL (2.0, heh) in '96, their browser was painfully slow
The internet was just fine before all you AOL twerps showed up.

Posted by: John Galt at February 02, 2011 03:50 PM (NLWij)

190
the squeaky noises from my modem used to make my ears itchy.

true story

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:50 PM (t2wZz)

191 Very interesting article onhow employers, especially on Wall St., go for students from prestigious schools....instead of the best candidates.They'll take the Johnny Dumbfuck legacy from Yale or Harvard while passing over the more qualified ...even from the "lesser" Ivy League schools.
They even admit that the quality of education is better even at some state universities

Posted by: beedubya at February 02, 2011 03:50 PM (AnTyA)

192 The problem is that K-12 education in this country is a joke and colleges have adapted to that reality. People don't suddenly become frivolous morons when they enter college.
Posted by: Abe Froman at February 02, 2011 03:47 PM (uZJOg)
The problem began when politicians and advocates figured out they could get a lot of mileage out of insisting that everyone had an equal capacity to learn. Reality being what it is, when we couldn't make everyone smart we had to make everyone kind of dumb. Equality.

Posted by: CJ at February 02, 2011 03:50 PM (9KqcB)

193 The obsession with sending kids to college has been a key cause of the decline of HS education, IMHO. At my HS, you had two tracks: those who were going to college and those who weren't. The classes for those going to college were usually lefty bullshit, but at least they did *some* serious reading. The non college track classes were a waste. I have a theory that teachers today have this fantasy of 'being responsible' for inspiring a student to go to college. As a result, they focus their attention on the most promising, and ignore the others.

Posted by: Alex at February 02, 2011 03:51 PM (J2ejK)

194 any comment on my related thoughts?
I thought you'd never ask, Ace.
I started operating machine shop tools at the tender age of 15. Finished that two year program, then spent the next 4 years as a Toolmakers Apprentice. I learned more while making money than I ever thought possible.
Flash forward a few years. I'm about thisclose to an AS degree in computer science, which I can't afford to finish because I've been out of machine shop work for three years.
So, as one who has straddled both worlds, I can say that the time I spent in OJT was the best. I learned about physics, metallurgy, trigonometry, geometry, inspection, QualityControl,how to do a PL sheet, management and business. As a side note, my last job was as a machine shop foreman. When I went to find a few young apprentices for the shop, I found none. Not even a local program for it.
We've got a great opportunity to revive our manufacturing base, but we've got to get the young'uns interested in it first. There are plenty of young gearheads out there, we just need the programs like we used to have.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at February 02, 2011 03:51 PM (b6qrg)

195 ACES CLUB

Posted by: 2 x 4 never gets old at February 02, 2011 03:51 PM (3lx5O)

196
Internet...in '91...without Windows?

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:51 PM (t2wZz)

197 But at least concede the point that they should speak proper English; in other words. not Engrish.
(And you know as well as I do thatmany times at
university, the majority of the math dep't has not adopted 'english as
the first language' approach with its faculty).

Posted by: laceyunderalls at February 02, 2011 03:32 PM (+/p72)
Well, if English classes were about composition and grammar, I'd agree with you, but they don't condescend to that. You don't become an English professor to be a high school teacher, even though high schools aren't teaching it. I'd exempt all language instruction classes (English or otherwise) from my summary execution of the "humanities".I would very much like you to suggest that your local state university have an "English as a first language" approach to their faculty hiring.I'd love it. And good luck with that.It's really horrible in the science/engineering academy for Americans.
(1) American students generally pay for their own education. Foreign students (at least those that can compete for graduate schools) have fully subsidized educations and no debt.
(2) Not only have they not worked part-time jobs, they haven't had to take any breadth requirements in their post-adolescent education with the possible exception of English as a foreign language.
(3) There is a bias against Americans in American schools simply because the foreign students have been through rigorous testing and standards, and American students are much less well-prepared. Ironically, many are able to do reasonably well by the end of their education, but they certainly have to work much harder and they still have gaps in their learning.
(4) Native English-speakers are the ones who serve on committees. The language gap is a convenient way to avoid the boring tedious work of the department and college and anti-social behavior is often excused because of language.
(5) Salaries are kept artificially low. For one reason, there's a flood of the supply. India and especially China, are net exporters of scientists. Another thing is the visa. Faculty who are dependent on the university to stay in the country don't rock the boat when it comes to salary demands.This all becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as Americans are even further discouraged from scientific fields, making fields like, say, law far more attractive. If you go into a hard science, you're a chump.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:51 PM (T0NGe)

198
Computers sucked before Windows 3.1.

It's true. For regular people, computers were useless.

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:52 PM (t2wZz)

199 If the best American education can do is turn out yammering loons like Sheppie-Poo Smith -- or "Poppin' Fresh" (who just achieved Worldwide Fame by being interviewed on some Major Interwebz TV Program! wOOt!) -- we are so far beyond boned.

But it's the ability to take in and interpret
information that I feel is the most important if these kids are actually
going to use their degree in the government or business world. It's a
skill that is rapidly declining among today's youth.


Posted by: Doc at February 02, 2011 03:43 PM

When fundamentals are ignored from the beginning, as they have been for decades, precious little real learning happens, no matter what college is attended.

Posted by: MrScribbler© at February 02, 2011 03:52 PM (Ulu3i)

200 >>Do you guys have the internet in 1995? It was my first year on the 'net. I briefly had CompuServe and then it got bought by AOL in 1996.

During those years I was working for Cisco in a little insurgent group that was set up to deal with these new things called ISPs. Those were very fun days but I have never met an odder group of people than the original internet backbone engineers. Social skills? Forget basic humanities, some of those folks made Ted Kaczynski look like the model of mental health.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 02, 2011 03:52 PM (TMB3S)

201 196
No windows. Just dialed into a good old text-based shell account on a Unix machine.

Posted by: fb at February 02, 2011 03:53 PM (G60Nl)

202 As was pointed out before, the first two years of college are a waste for almost everyone.
I wasn't even able to declare a major until junior year because I had to take so many frigging electives. I have to take four philosphy classes. What a waste of time! I'll discuss the Teleological versys deontological ethic systems in my own free time thank you very much. I don't need to be wasting valuable class time on it.
Consider the fact that you are paying the college, but they are telling you what you can and can't do. Please someone explain this to me. I'm paying. How about I take whatever f'ing classes I want? I could have finished my degree in two years, and that is exactly why they force you to take electives. They know people like me will just take their core classes and get a degree in two. So they force you to take other classes and double their profits.

Posted by: Ben at February 02, 2011 03:54 PM (wuv1c)

203 What always amazes was the number of nazi war criminals who had phds. They either handed them out like candy between the wars or the so called elitists are seriously bent and have to be watched 24/7.
Posted by: moi at February 02, 2011 03:32 PM (Ez4Ql)
You don't need to fall back on the Nazis to see that having an advanced degree means exactly squat when it comes to being a decent human being. If anything, having oneinduces the kind of arrogance that makes it easier to devalue others. Combine intellectual snobbery with a feeling of racial superiority - what could you end up with OTHER than a war criminal?

Posted by: Reactionary at February 02, 2011 03:54 PM (xUM1Q)

204
How can people with no vision of what will become of their product invent such a thing? Amazing.

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:54 PM (t2wZz)

205 155

23 And teaching science, engineering, and math majors to be able to
write coherently and well, possibly understand ethics and historical
ramifications isn't such a bad thing. In this regard the humanities are
important: it's the subject matter being taught and a lot of the
teachers that are the problem (see my last post above -- no way do I go
back to teaching comp if I have to deal with lackwits, toadies, and kool
aide drinkers...and that's just the administration).

To be fair and balanced I believe liberal arts students should be
required to take hard science classes as well -- but that goes back to
perhaps getting rid of the lackwits, toadies, and kool aide drinkers...

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 03:41 PM (5/yRG)
During a brief stint as and adjunct instructor, I taught what we in the physics dept called "physics for poets" for all the little humanities/psych/LA majors who needed to fill a science requirement. In other words, there was no math involved. It was pathetic.

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:55 PM (x3YFz)

206 159
ISTJ here.





I enjoyed college and did grow intellectually. I just wish I'd worked a
little harder. Going from a small, Catholic girls high school (SHUT
UP) to a large, urban university was...interesting and had its
distractions.



The high school I attended was very, very rigorous and did prepare me
for college-level work.

Posted by: MDH3 at February 02, 2011 03:42 PM (ShSoH)

I bet those Catholic girls high school uniforms were rigorously, even Teutonically, cool .... I'm distracted ......

Posted by: Arbalest at February 02, 2011 03:55 PM (BqSr3)

207 Posted by: Ben at February 02, 2011 03:54 PM (wuv1c)
Didn't they let you test out of the low level stuff? I killed of a LOT of credits in english, math, and humanities simply by testing out of them.

Posted by: Reactionary at February 02, 2011 03:55 PM (xUM1Q)

208 Speaking of internet hangouts and trends and such, your blog is a pain in the ass for android phones, and I'm guessing smartphones in general. Dude, it's 2011 get with it.

Posted by: Stan at February 02, 2011 03:55 PM (s6wJO)

209 Computers sucked before Windows 3.1.


10 PRINT "SUCK MY BALLS"
20 GOTO 10

Posted by: Commodore 64 at February 02, 2011 03:55 PM (3YYhR)

210 Lynx, baby - no need for pictures on the real Internet!

Posted by: Chuckit at February 02, 2011 03:56 PM (uFhrO)

211 Internet...in '91...without Windows?

I don't remember exactly what year each internet feature was added but we had SMTP mail by '85 when I first got on via the university VAX. So yes, we had internet without DOS or windoze.

Posted by: John Galt at February 02, 2011 03:56 PM (NLWij)

212 179 Do you guys have the internet in 1995? It was my first year on the
'net. I briefly had CompuServe and then it got bought by AOL in 1996.
Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 03:42 PM (t2wZz)
I got dialup in 1997. Used it to pick up chicks and debate politics. Still debating...---------I started with AppleTalk in 1984: 1200 baud modem.
Managed to make it to "senior" hardware and software engineer status on a 2-year degree.Company packed up and left in 2009. Discovered the degree is now worthless.Should have majored in partying in a 4-year school.

Posted by: jwb7605 at February 02, 2011 03:56 PM (Qxe/p)

213 203
What always amazes was the number of nazi war criminals who had
phds. They either handed them out like candy between the wars or the so
called elitists are seriously bent and have to be watched 24/7.
Posted by: moi at February 02, 2011 03:32 PM (Ez4Ql)
You don't need to fall back on the Nazis to see that
having an advanced degree means exactly squat when it comes to being a
decent human being. If anything, having oneinduces the kind of
arrogance that makes it easier to devalue others. Combine intellectual
snobbery with a feeling of racial superiority - what could you end up
with OTHER than a war criminal?

Posted by: Reactionary at February 02, 2011 03:54 PM (xUM1Q)
Silliness. What's your address?

Posted by: Ted Kaczynski at February 02, 2011 03:57 PM (x3YFz)

214 I enjoyed college and did grow intellectually. I just wish I'd worked a little harder. Going from a small, Catholic girls high school (SHUT UP) to a large, urban university was...interesting and had its distractions. The high school I attended was very, very rigorous and did prepare me for college-level work.
Posted by: MDH3 at February 02, 2011 03:42 PM (ShSoH)
My condolences. I did four years in a Jesuit boys school. It was like "Lord Of The Flies"

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 03:57 PM (ujg0T)

215 Taking courses that can enhance your skills and broaden your knowledge are a good thing.
Killing yourself with debt and earning a worthless degree isn't.

Hell, I dropped out with 1 year to go for my BA in Art.
I know people who graduated, went to grad school, finished three years ago, and can't find a job in teaching the stuff. The system sucks.

Posted by: CAC at February 02, 2011 03:57 PM (Gr1V1)

216 Yeah, but try to break into managment, at 50, without some type of degree.
Unless you know someone, your resume never gets past HR.
Problem is that as you age, you end up competing for the ever smaller pool of upper level jobs,.. so unless you already know someone there, not having a 4 year can be a killer.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 02, 2011 03:58 PM (AdK6a)

217 Can we send Shep Smith to Cairo? PLZ???

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:58 PM (x3YFz)

218 During a brief stint as and
adjunct instructor, I taught what we in the physics dept called "physics
for poets" for all the little humanities/psych/LA majors who needed to
fill a science requirement. In other words, there was no math
involved. It was pathetic.


Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:55 PM (x3YFz)
You will note that no humanities or social science class exists that is "dumbed down" for the science majors.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:59 PM (T0NGe)

219 On history departments, as mentioned above they're increasingly dominated by courses dealing with a specific demographic group and often filtered through a politicized theoretical lense. This is made possible by social history displacing the more traditional fields of political, diplomatic, military, and economic history. Every year, there are more and more courses on women's history from a feminist perspective, "queer history", African-American history, etc., and they are typically taught by members of the demographic group they study, so in a history department you have a Hispanic professor teaching Hispanic-American history, a homosexual teaching "queer history", an ethnic Chinese professor teaching Asian-American history (with an emphasis on Chinese-Americans), and so on. There's less and less room for professors teaching more traditional, less politicized courses, whether in American history or the history of other countries.

Posted by: DKCZ at February 02, 2011 03:59 PM (0YKvL)

220 Reactionary, I did that - then my school said "sure you get credit for those, but the requirement remains -- and you can't take the easy one's now -- so off to 201 Creative Writing, you go - instead of 101 Cat in a Hat, etc.

Posted by: Jean at February 02, 2011 03:59 PM (WkuV6)

221 216

Yeah, but try to break into managment, at 50, without some type of degree.

Unless you know someone, your resume never gets past HR.

Problem is that as you age, you end up competing for the ever smaller
pool of upper level jobs,.. so unless you already know someone there,
not having a 4 year can be a killer.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 02, 2011 03:58 PM (AdK6a)
degree or not, you HAVE to know someone. Or someones. Lots of someones. This is why I spend my days day trading taking money from stupid people.

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:59 PM (x3YFz)

222 Shep: Is that a tank?
Reporter on site (ROS): It looks kind of like a tank.
Shep: No. I think it's an armored personnel carrier.
ROS: Your right. It's an armored personnel carrier.
Shep: Someone here at the studio said it was a tank.
ROS: Yes. I think it's a tank.

They are hired because they're attractive, not because they are smart.

Posted by: shibumi at February 02, 2011 04:00 PM (OKZrE)

223 218
During a brief stint as and
adjunct instructor, I taught what we in the physics dept called "physics
for poets" for all the little humanities/psych/LA majors who needed to
fill a science requirement. In other words, there was no math
involved. It was pathetic.


Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:55 PM (x3YFz)
You will note that no humanities or social science class exists that is "dumbed down" for the science majors.


Posted by: AmishDude at February 02, 2011 03:59 PM (T0NGe)
I defer to the obvious point that they're dumbed down by default?

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 04:01 PM (x3YFz)

224 the rule was if you could not hack Engineering, go Pre-Med, and if you could not hack Pre-Med, go Business. I ended up a bean counter.

LOL.

Anyway, I remember dialup bulletin boards from the late eighties, using Zterm on an ancient IIsi. Blazin' 2400 baud, baby!

Posted by: George Orwell at February 02, 2011 04:01 PM (AZGON)

225

Although it's a FACT that Germans Are Weird, I always wonder if
Americans wouldn't be better off if that sort of institutional, formal
parallel civil society weren't in existence here.


Do you live in this country? It does.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at February 02, 2011 04:01 PM (ZJ/un)

226 INTP

Posted by: rdbrewer at February 02, 2011 04:01 PM (HSJsW)

227 They are hired because they're attractive eager to provide sexual favors, not because they are smart.

FTFY.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 02, 2011 04:01 PM (3YYhR)

228 Shep: Is that a tank?

Reporter on site (ROS): It looks kind of like a tank.

Shep: No. I think it's an armored personnel carrier.

ROS: Your right. It's an armored personnel carrier.

Shep: Someone here at the studio said it was a tank.

ROS: Yes. I think it's a tank.

Beanie and Cecil would make better news anchors.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 02, 2011 04:02 PM (AZGON)

229 Posted by: Ben at February 02, 2011 03:54 PM (wuv1c)
Didn't they let you test out of the low level stuff? I killed of a LOT of credits in english, math, and humanities simply by testing out of them.
I was able to test out of statistics, but that is only because my local highschool offered a statistics course that counted as college credit if you got an A and paid 90 bucks to the local college. Also, even after testing out of statistics, I was still required to take 2 math courses.
For everything else I didn't have an option.
I had to take 4 Philosophy courses, two science courses, two math courses, two english cources, one freshman orientation course(big f'ing waste of time), and one poly sci course.
All I wanted was a history degree.Only the english courses were relevant. Everything else I could have done without. Even the math courses I didn't need. I could have finished in two years. I should have been able to, but I bought into, and my parents bought into that whole Liberal Arts pap. I had a liberal arts education in highschool. I didn't need a second one. College should be teach specializations. Now we've just pushed that off into Graduate schools.

Posted by: Ben at February 02, 2011 04:02 PM (wuv1c)

230 I remember the first computer I got being in 1990 and has 1 mgbyte of ram and 40 of memory on the HD. Everything online was mostly DOS and Yahoo! was the first place to go online it seems...if my dusty brain serves.

Posted by: rightzilla at February 02, 2011 04:02 PM (ujT7B)

231 193 It's a lot of egotism too -- everybody wants to teach the "college track classes", but a lot of it is feel good bs anymore (feel good for the teacher mostly); nobody wants to put in the hard slog with the elementary kids.It's helped along by the new curriculum (do you know my6th grader does not even have a textbook for English? no grammar and noresearch skills whatsoever being taught -- I've had to do that at home).At which point those new college students would arrive in my class being nearly unteachable, because they weren't all that and a bag of chips yet thought they were. As for the "noncollege track"; they showed up in my classes at the community college witha bad attitude towards anything not related to their particular area (which bit them in the ass, because they barely had a 5th grade education, and that'sgiving them the benefit of the doubt,and could have at least learned some basic math, reading, and writing skills -- which are kinda nice to have; being able to do the math to balance the books is good; being able to read the newspaper with some semblence of comprehension and critical thought is nice too).
They got stupiderevery single year too, which lead a lot of instructors to just get out of teaching (along with some of the dumb crap we were being forced to teach).

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 04:02 PM (5/yRG)

232 Going from a small, Catholic girls high school (SHUT UP) to a large, urban university was...interesting and had its distractions.
Dude, you're my hero.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at February 02, 2011 04:02 PM (b6qrg)

233 Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 04:02 PM (5/yRG)
OK...now justshoot me. I need a drink!

Posted by: rightzilla at February 02, 2011 04:04 PM (ujT7B)

234 LOL. Anyway, I remember dialup bulletin boards from the late eighties, using Zterm on an ancient IIsi. Blazin' 2400 baud, baby!
That was my time too! No accident the CS students tended to burn the midnight oil when computer use was low. That and playing "Xtrek"

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 04:04 PM (ujg0T)

235 JackStraw - In retrospect, serial UUCP wasn't the best way to prepare for today's FaceBook culture.

Posted by: Jean at February 02, 2011 04:05 PM (WkuV6)

236 And it all started back in 1995 in AOL chat rooms 1980 on USENET.

FIFY.

Posted by: Ian S. at February 02, 2011 04:05 PM (p05LM)

237 My father is 63 years old, and he reads three-four books a week. OF course, he's retired now. Pre-retirement it was more like one-a-week.
Pops also cranks out at least one crossword every day.
But, I guess having only a BA, he could never, ever compete intellectually with the average 28 year-old douchebag who just cranked out a watered-down Master's degree from Lefty State.

Posted by: stickety at February 02, 2011 04:05 PM (FUDwf)

238 Did somebody mention railroad TRRRRAAAAAAIIIIINNNNNNSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: William_Shatner's_Pants at February 02, 2011 04:05 PM (Re/ro)

239 I was under the impression that non-institutional learning was the hallmark of the American spirit. Hell, some of our greatest leaders and innovators were self-taught.
IMHO, if you want to reform education, you need to reform the legal and medical professions, since a lot of degrees seem to be gateways into medical school or law school. I would kill the requirement for a J.D. in order to take the bar exam. If you can pass it, then you should be able to practice law.Lawschool is already fairly useless for actual bar preparation,so let itfocus onlegal theory and training fucking wannabe Supreme Court clerks, and letJoe Bob hand ashingle andwrite contracts for local businesses without going $100k into debt.
I would also make PA school an undergraduate degree, and reform the cartel system that we use for medical schools. Right now, we operate on a 100 year old system that was designed when applicants to medical school were unlikely to have a whole lot of education. They deliberately wanted a system that limited the number of doctors produced. A better system is to let PAs and RN be the primary healthcare providers, and move doctors to a supervisory/specialist role.

Posted by: Alex at February 02, 2011 04:05 PM (J2ejK)

240 degree or not, you HAVE to know someone. Or someones. Lots of someones. This is why I spend my days day trading taking money from stupid people.
Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 03:59 PM (x3YFz)
LOL... pretty true...
We're actually starting a new IT company in the Central Valley in California (Modesto Area), with 4 of us who "used" to be 100K a year IT guys... who now can't even get interviews because we have a combination of too much experience, and no 4 year degree... and don't speak Farsi.
Actualy getting a lot of tractions from the Doctor and Lawyer office types...

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 02, 2011 04:06 PM (AdK6a)

241 The obsession with sending kids to college has been a key cause of the decline of HS education, IMHO. At my HS, you had two tracks: those who were going to college and those who weren't
I sit on the board of our local technical school and we are under capacity. Most of the students there are quite skilled and will make out much better than the kid coasting aimlessly through college.

Posted by: CJ at February 02, 2011 04:06 PM (9KqcB)

242 You wanna take away my Ancient Greek degree? Μολὼν λαβέ, motherfucker!

Posted by: Fortunata at February 02, 2011 04:07 PM (90H1N)

243 Proud earner of two degrees here, both in chemistry (B.Sc. and Ph.D.). Worked hard, had fun, learned a lot to earn them and have been well compensated in the working world for having done so.

Nevertheless, if I could do it over again, I think that I'd have gone for something more down-to-earth and vocational in nature. I derive real satisfaction from making things myself - they're tangible and I know how they came to be. One of the biggest kicks I got out of grad school was learning to use a lathe in the school's machine shop reserved for grad students. I never had to put skills I began to learn there to use for my own research, but I did appreciate having had the experience to try it.

Posted by: ya2daup at February 02, 2011 04:07 PM (7GfKM)

244
Does it really count if there are only 12 other people on the internet?

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 04:08 PM (t2wZz)

245 I first got on via the university VAX. So yes, we had internet without DOS or windoze
oh yeah?
Well, my first modem was rotary dial

Posted by: beedubya at February 02, 2011 04:08 PM (AnTyA)

246 205 Well, some of us didn't take the math/science for dummies classes -- I tested out of those and have about 2 semesters worth of 2nd/3rd year science and math credits. The college I went to required you take a well rounded curriculum, the choice of classes was up to you -- but the English dept. head there encouraged people to take the harder classes if they qualified for them (he believed in learning).
Don't get me started again on math/science instructors that would have a hard time in a well taught Comp I class.

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 04:09 PM (5/yRG)

247 In my first computer class in Fall 79 at college, we played a dos driven game. All comands working through a "house" of "monsters". It was fun and you had to create the pictures in your mind of what was going on as you used the keypad to move about. No mouse, no graphics.

Posted by: rightzilla at February 02, 2011 04:09 PM (ujT7B)

248 For the record, I love teaching at the college level. The difference is that you just teach your subject material, help those that want help, and fuck the rest of them: it's their dime (or their parents' dime).

I had the pleasure of teaching for a great department chair who would back me if I had to hand out 20 Fs.

Physics: learn or die.

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 04:09 PM (x3YFz)

249 Somebody had a link some time agoto a site with a few questions from a test circa 1890. Those were some damn hard questions, I couldn't answer half of them. And I are edgemucated some.
It seems we've been on a downhill slide for a while...

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at February 02, 2011 04:09 PM (b6qrg)

250 In my first computer class in Fall 79 at college, we played a dos driven game. All comands working through a "house" of "monsters". It was fun and you had to create the pictures in your mind of what was going on as you used the keypad to move about. No mouse, no graphics.
"You hit the Troll--More--"

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 04:11 PM (ujg0T)

251 Anyway, I remember dialup bulletin boards from the late eighties, using Zterm on an ancient IIsi. Blazin' 2400 baud, baby!
Posted by: George Orwell at February 02, 2011 04:01 PM (AZGON)

My first experience on a computer was inmedical imaging using a DOS/Basic/FORTRAN software. Nothing was by menu. Everything was executed on a memorized command. I think I had to memorize about a hundred-plus commands. 1500 baud (or something in that range).......sizzilin'!

Posted by: Soona at February 02, 2011 04:11 PM (jHv0E)

252 Oh, yeah, the experience of college life is priceless. I learned such useful lessons as:
1. Guys have panty raids, gals try to have a jockstrap raid and end up having to run like hell, because a bunch of guys come running out of a dorm after us. Also, vodka mixed with kool aid makes a pretty good cocktail.
2. When you have a party in your college apartment you block off your bedroom with the dining room table, otherwise you will find footprints on the wall near your bed, where god only knows what took place.
3. In Michigan, yoopers have the best parties.

Posted by: nerdygirl at February 02, 2011 04:12 PM (d9jgX)

253 Uh oh... computer geeks and model railroad hobbyists on the same thread...

The nerd meter will shatter its glass and the needle will be so pegged it will tie itself into a clove hitch.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 02, 2011 04:12 PM (AZGON)

254 #245
Well, my first modem was rotary dial

ROOKIE. Mine was a strowager switch.

Posted by: jwb7605 at February 02, 2011 04:12 PM (Qxe/p)

255 Wankers.

Posted by: Tiger Mom at February 02, 2011 04:12 PM (3YYhR)

256 246

205 Well, some of us didn't take the math/science for dummies classes
-- I tested out of those and have about 2 semesters worth of 2nd/3rd
year science and math credits. The college I went to required you take a
well rounded curriculum, the choice of classes was up to you -- but the
English dept. head there encouraged people to take the harder classes
if they qualified for them (he believed in learning).
Don't get me started again on math/science instructors that would have a hard time in a well taught Comp I class.

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 04:09 PM (5/yRG)
This, too, is true.

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 04:13 PM (x3YFz)

257 Well, my first modem was rotary dial
Posted by: beedubya at February 02, 2011 04:08 PM (AnTyA)
Bah... Binary Smoke Signals!

Posted by: Chief Wild Eagle, Heakai Tribe at February 02, 2011 04:13 PM (AdK6a)

258 The nerd meter will shatter its glass and the needle will be so pegged it will tie itself into a clove hitch.
And the Republicans will stand there with a Slurpee and not do a thing about it.

Posted by: Barack H. Obama at February 02, 2011 04:13 PM (p05LM)

259 Crumudgeon: YES! That was it!!!

Posted by: rightzilla at February 02, 2011 04:14 PM (ujT7B)

260
The coolest thing a giant computer could do in 1980 was create a crude b&w picture of SNOOPY with its dot matrix printer.

Posted by: soothsayer deeds done dirt cheap at February 02, 2011 04:15 PM (t2wZz)

261 Wankers.
Posted by: Tiger Mom at February 02, 2011 04:12 PM (3YYhR)
And more than a few of my Asian peers went on to attempt suicide.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 04:15 PM (ujg0T)

262 Internet, bah! Mastering mad math skillz with log-log scales on the nerds' pre-70s lightsaber, poseurs!

Posted by: comes the collapse, K+E will rule again! at February 02, 2011 04:15 PM (7GfKM)

263 Did anyone else catch in the internal contradictions in the notion of "intellectual learning clubs?"
So you become a member of a club that supports continued intellectual learning.
Just what are your chances of getting laid in such a club?
Zero, my friend, ZERO!
Even if you did snag some tang from a club member, it would smart chick tang and that's the least appealling kind! They make you work too hard!
No, you want dumb chick tang, the easy kind that goes to college and doesn't have to work for a living.
Now, ask me why our national intelligence level seems to be slipping with each generation.

Posted by: Whitehall at February 02, 2011 04:16 PM (FmPSC)

264 The coolest thing a giant computer could do in 1980 was create a crude bw picture of SNOOPY NAKED BOOBIES with its dot matrix printer.

FIFY.

Posted by: Ian S. at February 02, 2011 04:16 PM (p05LM)

265 Curmudgeon: YES! That was it!!!
Called "Rogue". And I had a few friends, with the first "Norton Utilities", modify the Rogue game so your character could attain the rank of "Asshole".

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 04:17 PM (ujg0T)

266 Oh, yeah, the experience of college life is priceless.
Like when I got to explain to Harry Chapin's bass player why we were conducting a streak-in in conjunction with their concert. We were talking after the show and when we walked out the front of the auditorium, we were greeted by scores of students in various states of undress having an impromptu parade in front of the freshman girls' dorm.
Good times.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at February 02, 2011 04:17 PM (b6qrg)

267 252
3. In Michigan, yoopers have the best parties.Posted by: nerdygirl at February 02, 2011 04:12 PM (d9jgX)

You betcha! Come join me in the sauna, toots, for a little birch bough action ... hubba, hubba!

Posted by: ya2daup at February 02, 2011 04:17 PM (7GfKM)

268 #252
Internet, bah! Mastering mad math skillz with log-log scales on the nerds' pre-70s lightsaber, poseurs!

Ah yes. Bamboo light sabers!

Posted by: jwb7605 at February 02, 2011 04:18 PM (Qxe/p)

269 Hey, I'm an honorary nerd. There is a circular slide rule on my wristwatch. And I can use it.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 02, 2011 04:21 PM (AZGON)

270 OT - Weather Channel online is now forcasting a 70% chance of snow tomorrow night for Houston! Hell freezes over.

Posted by: Count de Monet at February 02, 2011 04:24 PM (XBM1t)

271 To further bolster my nerd cred, I have ascended nethack multiple times, and I will have that fact engraved on my tombstone. (Okay maybe not.)

"____ has ascended to the status of demigod...
Do you want your possessions identified?"

Posted by: fb at February 02, 2011 04:25 PM (G60Nl)

272 @206, if it's any help, imagine me as I am...a potty-mouthed middle-aged woman with a bad attitude.

@214, as did my younger brothers! I've heard the stories.

Posted by: MDH3 at February 02, 2011 04:25 PM (ShSoH)

273 256 Well, to be fair to you science/math types: I did go the English major route for 2 reasons (I had the option of switching my major, thanks to that prof): 1) I wanted to be a drunken little horse show bum partying and playing poker 4 nights a week, and it was way easier to do that while working and going to school on that English major (which was a tough major thanks to that dept. head, but reading books was always easy); 2) I had a scholarship and an assistantshipif I stayed with English, and that was money I didn't want to pass up on, so I chickened out and went with the dollar in my hand.
Eh, my bad, and I'm probably paying for it now -- no regrets teaching though, just hate what it's become. Back to topic: I don't think we could pull off the same sort of club thing as the Germans; not even sure we'd want to even though there are a lot of benefits/advantages to their club system. Our culture isn't the same as the Germans, not sure if I want it to be either.

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 04:26 PM (5/yRG)

274 To further bolster my nerd cred, I have ascended nethack multiple times
"You stop to avoid hitting your kitten"

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 04:26 PM (ujg0T)

275 Normally I find this sort of analysis as mere psychobabble, but M-B just fascinates me for some reason.

I agree with you on this, laceyunderalls, but I also agree that M-B (and the MBTI test) is amazingly predictive. Not prefectly so, obviously, but it is a very reliable test. The Minnesota Multiphasic is a good one too, though it's obviously intended to uncover *disorders*, rather than just describe a personality type.

I do think that people who live their whole lives around the MBTI are a bit off, though. I know people who actually decide which people they'll date on the basis of how they score on the MBTI.

Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 04:26 PM (4Pleu)

276 @214, as did my younger brothers! I've heard the stories.
How long did it take them to de-program? I was dealing with the aftermath years later....

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 04:27 PM (ujg0T)

277 275

I do think that people who live their whole lives around the MBTI are a
bit off, though. I know people who actually decide which people they'll
date on the basis of how they score on the MBTI.
Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 04:26 PM (4Pleu)

Take the test more than once and you can figure out which to which axis each question refers so you can recreate yourself as whatever MB-type you'd like. (But why bother?)

Posted by: ya2daup at February 02, 2011 04:30 PM (7GfKM)

278 250 Oh crap; I remember that damn game...bad flashbacks, bad, bad...

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 04:31 PM (5/yRG)

279 As was pointed out before, the first two years of college are a waste for almost everyone.

Huh? By the end of the first two years, most engineering students have alreadyhad around 13 hours of calculus, 6 hrs physics, 6 hrs chemistry, 3 hrs Diff EQ, 3 hrs statics, 3 hrs thermodynamics, etc., plus the core classes for their chosen field...

Posted by: Grim at February 02, 2011 04:33 PM (gyNYk)

280 Oh crap; I remember that damn game...bad flashbacks, bad, bad...
"Hey, this tastes great. It makes you feel warm all over"--More--

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 04:33 PM (ujg0T)

281 @232 - hanh?!

@276 - Actually, the elder of the two raised nine kinds of hell, including jumping out a second story window because he was bored in English class, while he was there, and is now the mainstay of the father's club, some thirty years later. Go figure.

Posted by: MDH3 at February 02, 2011 04:33 PM (ShSoH)

282 My first internetz was accessing BitNET via a Commodore 64 with a Telnet emulator in 1985 or thereabouts. Then it was on to the big leagues with a VAX 11/1780 running on a dedicated DarpaNET link -- first via a Merlin "dumb terminal" that was basically just a glass teletype, then via a WYSE full-screen-addressable terminal running curses (full-screen editing with vi, yay!), then an Apollo X-Window workstation in 1992 or so.

Until 1995 or so, Gopher and Usenet and NetTREK was where it was at, baby. The WWW was for lamers.

Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 04:35 PM (4Pleu)

283 280 STOP!!!!! No mas...no mas...

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 04:35 PM (5/yRG)

284 Our culture isn't the same as the Germans, not sure if I want it to be either.
We don't have to be like them. Personally, I don't want a club system, I just want a culture where dad the welder or mom who works as a secretary takes their kids to the bookstore on a Saturday morning, and has a library at home. Hell, that was what my dad did for my sister and I, and he's worked construction his whole life. He's someone who, if life hadn't thrown a wrench into his plans, would have a Ph.D in physics or engineering right now.

Posted by: Alex at February 02, 2011 04:36 PM (J2ejK)

285 I've got a degree I've never used except to put on a CV years ago. But this morning I was with two other guys looking at a book of hydraulic schematics as we tried to troubleshoot a very complex hydraulic system with interlocks and prerequisites that all have to be satisfied before the end functions will work. I'd like to see anyone at Harvard try to figure that system out.

Posted by: Mr. Dave at February 02, 2011 04:43 PM (dYKl3)

286 Until 1995 or so, Gopher and Usenet and NetTREK was where it was at, baby. The WWW was for lamers.
Usenet newsgroups was where some of us cut our teeth battling the Commiecrats not yet Dhimmicrats.
And don't forget "alt.sex.stores.(really crappy stuff written by 15 year olds if that)" .... on second thought, do forget that.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 04:47 PM (ujg0T)

287 I am just distinguishing between a real club-type club with regular
meetings and guests and the like as opposed to just hanging out with
friends.
Hookay, if you say so. Like a blog post isn't a called meeting and guest bloggers aren't guests speakers. Dood. Unless the club is making something like robots or getting together to sew a quilt, the internet is the new club meeting process.

So you are discounting the input that your commenters are posting as just ramblings among friends and not like actual ideas that could have merit?

Where does the blogosphere fall in this new world of idea spreading and learning that you are advocating? Somewhere less than Rotary and such if that last is any indication. Nice job of shitting on your business model.

Posted by: Stephanie at February 02, 2011 04:48 PM (hGYL3)

288 In other words, there was no math involved. It was pathetic.

I remember a lecture by the great Roger Penrose who said once that popular science books had a built-in flaw: for every mathematical equation they contained, you could cut the potential sales in half. (Which tells you something about his optimism -- his book The Road to Reality has equations on nearly one of its 1000+ pages.) He said that the problem was that the hard sciences required a high level of numeracy to really comprehend, but that the average person is not very numerate.

It's not just numeracy, either. A lot of Americans really aren't terribly literate, at least in the traditional sense of term. Many college grads I know can barely write a coherent sentence, much less a paragraph, and the habit of twittering/texting/IM seems to have degraded their spelling skills as well.

Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 04:50 PM (4Pleu)

289 284 Same here -- unfortunately, and this is where I see the reason for this post, there are a lot of Americans who just don't think that way. We have a lot of people who seem to think education is a bad thing -- in the sense of going and getting some learning on their own. Ture story: had a mom who was taking classes on a displaced worker thingamajig brag once (in one of my comp classes no less -- the irony which choke a hipster)that there were no books in her home, not even coloring books. Her kids was going to be modern...and learn real skillz with their computerand be manly playing around on their mini atvs (you can't make shit like that up).
It did explain a lot though.

Posted by: unknown jane at February 02, 2011 04:51 PM (5/yRG)

290 I guess this goes under the duh category.

I am fixing one of my mom's rental units and it has turned into a minor remodel. A quote for new kitchen cabinets was $4000. For just an l shaped space, 6' x3.5'. $4000. I thought what would be the price if schools still had woodshop and every highschool in the district had a senior class of kids ready to become carpenters and get a two year apprenticeship through a local JuCo? I'm no rocket sceintist but it would probably bealot less than $4000.

Posted by: theworldisnotenough at February 02, 2011 04:51 PM (JpqtI)

291 The first rule of Continued Intellectual Learning Club is, for God's Sake, don't talk about Continued Intellectual Learning Club.

Posted by: toby928™ at February 02, 2011 04:52 PM (GTbGH)

292 46
#23 The biggest problem with the 4-year colleges -- the liberal arts
degree. We cannot compete with science students around the world if we
force our own science majors to take breadth requirements.
This.

Also,
if the core of undergrad science education wasn't so diluted by
worthless elective requirements, grad students might finish their these
work sooner as they wouldn't have to waste time in their first and
second years taking formal courses.

/IIRC, European science grad
students don't take formal courses at all. AmishDude (or Y-not) can
put me some freakin' knowledge to this if they'd like.


Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at February 02, 2011 03:20 PM (9hSKh)
Triple this, I could've finished college a couple of years ago if it weren't for all the general ed crap I had to take.

Posted by: KG at February 02, 2011 04:56 PM (2k/Dg)

293 This "but my major was serious business" and "there are too many dumb fucks in college; send them to 'tard camp" shit is just dumb. Put some college at the problem, smartypantses.
Tens of millions of kids are being directed out of the blue-collar labor market, and replaced there with an electorally docile immigrant class. The credentialed's alienation from blue-collar life is being made total by corralling them on the served by side of it, because the working-apprentice step that used to be a standard part of becoming a "professional" is gone now. And every credentialed kid who winds up in a non-parasitic, non-"professional," free market job is counted as—and, more importantly, considers himself—"underemployed."
What kind of polity does this "model" make? Because it does make one, y'know. And it's not a very American one.

Posted by: oblig. at February 02, 2011 04:57 PM (xvZW9)

294 Met BITNET in '89 in college, Usenet the next year. I've actually used variants on my original handle ever since, though not here--for various reasons, I keep the two separate.

First heard of the WWW project in '91. Predicted, based on download times, it would never catch on. Have felt like a flaming idiot ever since as a result. (But got to play with NeXTstations, so it's all good.)

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord© at February 02, 2011 04:58 PM (GBXon)

295
But little Johnny can't get a football scholorship to Vo-Tech! How the
hell can we all live vicariously through him if he's not in college
sports?

And those athletics have become full time jobs. The idea that your sports scholarship is going to pay for your education is a sham as you will have no time for one.

Posted by: kidney at February 02, 2011 05:02 PM (ENRGu)

296 I'm no rocket sceintist but it would probably bealot less than $4000.

Actually, depending on where you are, that price has been held down artificially by illegal labor.

Posted by: kidney at February 02, 2011 05:03 PM (ENRGu)

297 And the fact that no new homes are being built.

We have all the carpenters we need until some of them go home and the housing market turns around.

Posted by: kidney at February 02, 2011 05:05 PM (ENRGu)

298 My guess is that Harvard's assertion is well intentioned. But in so many ways it simply will enhance its own elitist standing in the market place. I doubt that Harvard intends to get in the business of vocational education, but it fully intends to ensure that graduates from its business schools can step into management roles for those who permanently stifle their own advancement because they don't have equivalent four year degrees.

Posted by: Mr. Peabody at February 02, 2011 05:14 PM (3bo9E)

299
I always wonder if Americans wouldn't be better off if that sort of
institutional, formal parallel civil society weren't in existence here.
It is in existence here. It's called "religion". Or, if you prefer, "churches". Many millions of people participate: for self-improvement, the sharing of community values, promoting culture, performing acts of charity, educating their young, and much, much more.

Posted by: Brown Line at February 02, 2011 05:17 PM (gljHq)

300 I apologize, but I don't have the time to read the thread, but I wanted to just chime in.

I got a lot out of college. I'd like to think I would have been able to succeed without the benefits of a 4-year liberal arts degree (in science), but there's no doubt that college was good for me.

I turned down acceptance at a more prestigious research-oriented university because it did not leave enough non-science electives and I wanted to continue my studies in French and art. My husband was a double major in Physics (3. and English (4.0) and he has used both disciplines (and degrees/credentials). So between the two of us, we're firm believers in liberal arts educations.

I was still able to get into a top grad program, even with a B.A. My
specialization came later, in graduate school, where I found I had a
much broader understanding of the life sciences than most of my
classmates who'd been lab rats doing molecular biology experiments as
undergrads.

It's like anything else. Some people squeeze a lot out of whatever educational opportunity they get - whether formal or informal - and some people don't.

I do not think that it would be good to have our scientists and engineers even further removed from mainstream America by limiting their exposure to the humanities in college. (Yes, it was a pain in the ass to have to carry more credits than folks
who didn't have 5-credit courses with labs, but so what?) If nothing else, they need to learn how to communicate why their research is of value to lay audiences in order to get funding. But, more than that, access to education in "non-utilitarian" subjects - as opposed to merely job training - is a benefit of an advanced and robust society. I'd hate to see us reject that after our parents and grandparents and their parents and grandparents worked so hard for us to have the opportunity.

In short, I'm sorry that so many wasted their college years, but it doesn't persuade me that we should suddenly make college something only a few get to experience.


I'm a little unhappy to find this hostility to higher education gaining traction in my political party. I think it's wrong-headed and I also think it's going to make us a harder sell to middle class and upper middle class voters.

Posted by: Y-not at February 02, 2011 05:29 PM (pW2o8)

301 Ugh, that was "three point eight" not "three smiley face." Grrr.

Posted by: Y-not at February 02, 2011 05:30 PM (pW2o8)

302 If nothing else, they need to learn how to communicate why their research is of value to lay audiences in order to get funding.

Okay, but forcing all engineers to do so is bullshit. Let us demonstrate via tests that we can write worth a damn, then let us skip all that gen ed junk.

Posted by: KG at February 02, 2011 05:33 PM (2k/Dg)

303 I'm a little unhappy to find this hostility to higher education gaining traction in my political party. I think it's wrong-headed and I also think it's going to make us a harder sell to middle class and upper middle class voters.

I don't think it's simple hostility -- it's just a belief that comparatively few people benefit from a 4-year college degree (especially liberal arts). If you think that 100% of our population should be college educated, then what value does a college education really bring anyone? It's just an extended high school in that case (and a vastly dumbed-down one, since you have to gear everything to allow the dimbulbs to pass).

Or you could say, well, let's just send the upper 50% of the bell curve to college. That's still overstuffing a job market with graduates it can't absorb. Is it really useful for a hairdresser or roadcrew worker or retail sales associate to have a 4-year degree? I don't think so. It's a horrible kind of malinvestment, and a disservice to the person in question, as it basically wasted some of their most productive years and left them in many cases saddled with a huge amount of debt.

We're overeducating a lot of our young people (or at least educating them in the wrong things).

Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 05:36 PM (4Pleu)

304 I entered college in 72. The big debate even then was whether college credit should be given for remedial reading and math. Coming out of the service I was impressed with what dingbat playbabies were running the nuthouse. I was shuffled to the 2 year business college getting my Associates and then Bachelors degree. Most of my course work was mental masturbation and it was obvious a plebian like myself was just there to provide $'s to the institution. A subsequent psychological profile said I would have made a much better engineer. Good to find out 2 months out of college.
Cut all grants to college. Get rid of government loans for college. They aren't about helping students. They are about giving more money to leftist institutions. Loans and free money have inflated the cost of school to ridiculous proportions, while saddling young graduates and non-gradswith debt.

Posted by: Ohio Dan at February 02, 2011 05:37 PM (EH4cc)

305 Okay, but forcing all engineers
to do so is bullshit. Let us demonstrate via tests that we can write
worth a damn, then let us skip all that gen ed junk.

It's not just the mechanics of writing (punctuation, spelling, grammar). It's the shared frame of reference upon which their examples are based. It's the ability to converse using lay language, not jargon, in a relaxed speaking style. It's the ability to understand the questions the lay people ask.

Case in point. A few years back a friend's husband (computer graphics engineer) was part of an SGI team assigned to develop graphics for the SuperBowl. None of the guys watched football for fun. The result was that the graphics they produced (which were supposed to illustrate plays - 'can't recall now if it was little men running around or what) were terrific fast 3D renderings, but they were not useful. They looked great, but the sequences did nothing to help viewers understand the plays.

I think the experience of studying with a cohort of similarly bright - but naive - students on a wide range of subjects, even those outside your main interest, provides an intense chance to develop intellectually.

Posted by: Y-not at February 02, 2011 05:41 PM (pW2o8)

306 300: The issue, I suspect, isn't with the idea of higher education, so much as the fact that it no longer really exists, having been replaced with a worthless substitute. Hating the zombie, not the original person, so to speak.

Zombie flick as metaphor for 21st century America. Depressing.

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord© at February 02, 2011 05:41 PM (GBXon)

307 read, forget when, that the Germans were just queer for clubs, and every German belonged to several of them, from professional type clubs to intellectual interest clubs to hobbyist clubs to boardgame clubs. Americans I don't think ever matched the Germans for club-joiningness, and certainly since the 60s, when that sort of structured community society seemed to become passe or reactionary or Ozzie and Harriet or whatever, it's declined further.
Although it's a FACT that Germans Are Weird, I always wonder if Americans wouldn't be better off if that sort of institutional, formal parallel civil society weren't in existence here.


Posted by: Ace at 03:04 PM
You're right, it's only in the last 50 years that clubs have become unpopular here in this country. I'm ancient and can recall my mother belonging to several clubs(not nationally organized although she did belong to a couple of those.) I can remember a music appreciation group, a book discussion group, as well as a crocheting and card clubthat she took her turn hosting. My father belonged to some kind of business discussion group and a card club, as well as the usual sporting clubs. Now these were middle class working people, not academics. My siblings and I belonged to music, drama, and book clubs. It's what people did before television became dominant and then the internet took over. Also I think there is much more emphasis today on organized sports than in the past, especially for children.

Posted by: Deanna at February 02, 2011 05:43 PM (AGl2N)

308 If you think that 100% of our population should be college educated,
then what value does a college education really bring anyone?

I don't think that. I don't think there should be federal students loans either.

I just don't like that my political party has decided to make attacking higher ed an issue.

There are flaws with higher ed (although I still contend our system in the U.S. is superior to what I've seen of Europe's, China's, Japan's, etc), but I don't like my party focusing on that as a national issue. It just doesn't seem to be one to me. If they want to attack student loans from a budgetary perspective, fine. But what I've been reading is a lot more hostility than that.

Posted by: Y-not at February 02, 2011 05:45 PM (pW2o8)

309 Of course, now that I think of it, a generation or two of extreme hostility emanating from high ed towards everything we hold dear probably did a lot to color attitudes in our camp. YMMV.

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord© at February 02, 2011 05:46 PM (GBXon)

310 I think the experience of studying with a cohort of similarly bright -
but naive - students on a wide range of subjects, even those outside
your main interest, provides an intense chance to develop
intellectually.
Posted by: Y-not at February 02, 2011 05:41 PM (pW2o

Sorry, but that's a load of bunk. It doesn't actually happen in gen ed.

Posted by: KG at February 02, 2011 05:46 PM (2k/Dg)

311 When I went to college (BS - Nuclear Engineering - '77) at the University of Florida ("No dorm more than 200 yards from a swimming pool!"), the science requirements for non-techies could be met by either of these popular courses:
1) "The Meats We Eat" - popular with the jocks or
2) "Vegetables of the World" - popular with the cheerleaders
So much for preparation for being a leader in a technology-based society.
BTW, the easiest girls majored in either anthropology, sociology, or journalism.

Posted by: Whitehall at February 02, 2011 05:49 PM (FmPSC)

312 262 Internet, bah! Mastering mad math skillz with log-log scales on the nerds' pre-70s lightsaber, poseurs!Posted by: comes the collapse, K+E will rule again! at February 02, 2011 04:15 PM (7GfKM)

Heh. I found my father's old K+E sliderule and taught myself how to use it. It was always fun pulling it out during a HS math exam with a no calculator rule.

Posted by: Mætenloch at February 02, 2011 05:50 PM (pAlYe)

313 There are flaws with higher ed (although I still contend our system in the U.S. is superior to what I've seen of Europe's, China's, Japan's, etc), but I don't like my party focusing on that as a national issue.

It *is* a national issue, and a very fundamental one. More than 20% of college enrollees never even graduate, and another 20-30% take five or six years to graduate. It's an economic disaster -- many able-bodied workers are being taken out of the labor pool and put into a comparably unproductive stasis for a significant part of their lives to no real good purpose, and during which time they accrue a lot of debt that will be a drag on them when they finally do start to work. It's a cultural disaster -- we are not educating enough kids in the hard sciences and engineering disciplines, but are overstuffing schools with philosophers and sociologists and [blah]-studies majors that have no practical application outside the Academy. It's a disservice to many young people -- many students are overpraised and over-promoted while in school, only to find that they are unable to perform in the real world to the standard they'd been led to believe while in college. They feel resentful and underappreciated, and tend to perform poorly at the jobs they are actually most suited to (service or trades jobs).

It's a huge problem, and I think our party is well advised to get out in front of it.

Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 05:51 PM (4Pleu)

314 I am amazed at how many people that are so obnoxiously superior to everyone and everything around them because of their college degrees that can't actually DO anything, or MAKE anything, or FIX anything. They are so "creative" except when it comes to actually creating tangible goods.

Posted by: NC Ref at February 02, 2011 05:53 PM (/izg2)

315 Americans I don't think ever matched the Germans for club-joiningness, and certainly since the 60s, when that sort of structured community society seemed to become passe or reactionary or Ozzie and Harriet or whatever, it's declined further.

The U.S. used to be absolutely awash in "fraternal societies". The Masons, Shriners, Elks, Lions, and Moose were just the better known. Practically everyone belonged to a "lodge" of some kind.

Political party organizations were often called clubs, and their offices were important social centers. Veterans' groups: the GAR, and later the VFW, American Legion, and others, all very club-like.

An anthropology book I read in 1970 argued seriously that clubs were to Western culture what caste was to India and clans to China.

And now it's almost all gone away.

Posted by: Rich Rostrom at February 02, 2011 05:56 PM (7YiAj)

316 I got my undergraduate degree from Crappy State University and paid almost nothing for it. But I did well enough to get into Harvard for grad school and only had to pay that tuition for 2 years. I think more kids should do this.
My sonwants to compose music for films and television. There are a small number of colleges that offer film scoring as an undergraduate major or concentration, but most of the great film scorers didn't get a film scoring degree, and many didn't even get a music degree. Is it worth $100k+ for him to go to Fancy Music College for 4 years, or should we just stake him the $25k that is in his college fund and send him to Hollywood? He may get into a composition program at a local university that would be very inexpensive, but he has his heart set on the Berklee College of Music which is around $35k a year and has a film scoring program.
I think many colleges have come up with bullshit majors to try to rope families into paying huge tuitions for their kid who has "unique" talents and career goals. For the most part, IMO, you go to college to grow up and learn how to be an adult, and maybe if you are lucky you get a bit of knowledge that will help you get a job or into grad school where you get the serious knowledge. It just isn't worth the dough we are shelling out for Bachelor's degrees.
Higher education has become just another industry that has figured out how to separate the Baby Boomers from their money.

Posted by: rockmom at February 02, 2011 05:58 PM (w/gVZ)

317 There are flaws with higher ed (although I still contend our system in the U.S. is superior to what I've seen of Europe's, China's, Japan's, etc), but I don't like my party focusing on that as a national issue. It just doesn't seem to be one to me. If they want to attack student loans from a budgetary perspective, fine. But what I've been reading is a lot more hostility than that.
Posted by: Y-not at February 02, 2011 05:45 PM
But I see it the opposite. I see it as having had to put up with the snobbery and elitism, especially of Liberal academics, for many many years. And the emphasis has been on college or nothing. I think that what you're reading is a reaction that has simmered for some time. It isn't against higher learning but the atmosphere that surrounds it. My one son is a good example. He has no degree but attended a tech school. He has a very highly paid job that he loves. It started as a hobby, encouraged bya club he joined. He went to a high school reunion and was asked what college he graduated from. When he replied he hadn't, those who had were shocked. He had been the class Valedictorian.

Posted by: Deanna at February 02, 2011 05:58 PM (AGl2N)

318 "many able-bodied workers are being taken out of the labor pool and put into a comparably unproductive stasis for a significant part of their lives to no real good purpose..."

And where exactly are all of these wonderful jobs for high school graduates?

It used to be, 30-40 years ago, that a kid could get a job a the local factory, usually where his dad worked, after HS. What's out there now? McDonald's.

Oh, and Taco Bell.

Posted by: JEA at February 02, 2011 05:59 PM (2DxMH)

319 And where exactly are all of these wonderful jobs for high school graduates?
And yet, there are many manufacturers who complain about "College Grads" who can't do trade work. Perhaps we need more respect for vocational colleges.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2011 06:07 PM (ujg0T)

320 And where exactly are all of these wonderful jobs for high school graduates?


The point is that that's exactly were they will be after they drop out of college, or graduate with worthless bachelor degrees. Only they will be older, less usefully educated, and in debt compared to those who go to trade school.

Posted by: toby928™: Free nickless the still-banned (99.174.64.43) at February 02, 2011 06:08 PM (GTbGH)

321 I have done fine in life. My college education had little if anything to do with my career. I don't deny professional skills like nursing, engineering or the sciences require college. No credit should be given for teaching a student to read or do simple math in college. a good 60% of college is a total waste of time and money. The last place you want to go to is the average college to learn how to run a business. Fundemental business skills like balancing checkbooks and the impact of debt and paying taxes and not paying taxescan be taught in a 6 month course. After that go to work for an employer you respect. You will save a lot of money earn more and get a headstartin life overthe children playing in college.
There is rightly or wrongly a confidence factor derived from completing college. If you already have the confidence, work ethic and aggression skip it.

Posted by: Ohio Dan at February 02, 2011 06:09 PM (EH4cc)

322 It's a huge problem, and I think our party is well advised to get out in front of it.



Posted by: Monty at February 02, 2011 05:51 PM

I don't think you've made a case for why it's a federal issue.

Governors and state legislatures can choose to address their state's educational systems, including their community colleges and research universities. Different states require a different mix of educational options.

Aside from yanking federal student loans, I don't see the federal issue.

Posted by: Y-not at February 02, 2011 06:09 PM (pW2o8)

323 My belief is that our entire school system was ruined in the 60s. High Schools were ruined when they became a social experiment for the liberals.

Colleges were ruined by the draft rules. Prior to the 60s only a relative few went to a 4 year college. The draft deferment caused hundreds of thousands of kids to go to college who ordinarily would not have gone. After they could no longer milk the 1Y deferment they tried the married and at least 1 kid deferment.

We have never recovered from those two things.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2011 06:10 PM (M9Ie6)

324 Aside from yanking federal student loans, I don't see the federal issue.

Posted by: Y-not at February 02, 2011 06:09 PM (pW2o
The feds are into every aspect of education from K-graduate level. And every aspect of it is blatantly unconstitutional.

Posted by: Vic at February 02, 2011 06:12 PM (M9Ie6)

325 Right now an organized hardworking man can make gross $250k cutting grass within 3 years of starting a businessin this area. Show up, shut up and do your job well is the best formula for successin nearly every walk of life.

Posted by: Ohio Dan at February 02, 2011 06:12 PM (EH4cc)

326 Both my daughters are doing well. One is a cosmetologist. She learned her trade in a trade/high school. The other went through the same school which prepared her for nursing college. She is a RN in intensive care and a darned fine nurse. She literally saved her Daddy's life when he was too stupid to get his ass to a hospital when he was having a heart attack.
I would be really pissed if I had saved and scrimped to put my kids through college to receive some bullshit college degree that left them unprepared for life.

Posted by: Ohio Dan at February 02, 2011 06:18 PM (EH4cc)

327 Note that Harvard doesn't propose the following:

In Latin American countries some universities adopt curriculum that is focused and fast-tracked for a particular profession (not vocation). Specifically you go directly from secondary school into medicine, dentistry, architecture, law, and so on. There is no mandatory four years of unrelated undergraduate work before you specialize.
Call me cynical, but my guess is that Harvard would find this approach less convincing.

Posted by: Mr. Peabody at February 02, 2011 06:42 PM (eOdp2)

328 I can't help but think of Judge Smails. "Well the world needs ditch diggers, too"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwYJxNnABp4

Posted by: guy at February 02, 2011 06:46 PM (G+GPc)

329 Miss Marple: Some of the best posters on various sites I read are business owners and blue-collar people without a diploma.
This.
Cannot be emphasized enough.
Great example would be http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com.

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