Also Breaking: Report That Mubarak To Announce He Won't Stand for "Election" In September; Russ and DrewM. Call Shenanigans

Update: More precisely, he will announce he won't stand for "election" later this year.

Sort of a decent compromise, permitting an orderly transition.

Of course, this isn't altogether good news.

A leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt told the Arabic-language Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel, according to the Hebrew-language business newspaper Calcalist.

More coming.

Chris Hitchens has a piece that's worth reading on this topic.

A people blocked from democracy become infantilized. They are not trusted to manage their own affairs. Like minors. And like minors, they are protected from the consequences of their own preferred actions, since they're prevented from ever taking those actions. And so insulated, they can fantasize about how wonderful their blocked plans would be if only they could carry them through.

And they tend then to adopt the bad habits of minors, self-pity, scapegoating, fantasy, magical thinking, "rebellion" against reasonableness and wisdom, and so on. 90% of the Muslim world is infantilized in this way.

There's a lot of downside to Islamists coming to power, and certainly on the whole it's a bad thing we don't wish to see happen. But, if you're casting about for a bright side, it's this: Their crude, childish fantasies will be put the hard test of reality. Like an experiment, they'll be either proven right or, uh, much more likely, proven catastrophically and stupidly wrong.

But this, alas, takes years and years. The mullahs still control Iran. Hamas hasn't particularly learned from its constant errors and failures. Hezbollah just took over a country (having previously only owned half of it).

American foreign policy is always incoherent because we talk about democracy and self-determination while knowing, to a moral certainty, that there are good reasons the infantilized populations of many countries haven't been trusted with such a thing yet: They'll abuse it, kill a lot of people acting up and acting out their fantasies, and generally bring almost as much, if not more, misery than the bastard dictatorial regimes which control them until the point of revolution.

How much suffering and misery does it take to beat sense into people? I don't know. I'm thinking at least 30 and as long as 100 years.

So America kicks the can down the road, knowing that it will turn out badly, but, frankly, in most parts of the world, everything turns out badly no matter what you do, because the people there are just stupid and cruel and short-sighted.

Egypt will shortly be on the road to responsiblility. But like children, they don't grow up quietly, and you can expect a lot of fights and calamities along the process of maturation.

Note: Commenters emphasize this is just a report that only Al Aribiya has, which hasn't been confirmed by other outlets. That's true. I said it's a report; I should emphasize that it's unconfirmed.

But, having said that, I believe it, because we've been hearing this kind of chatter and it seems the only likely resolution to this.

Update: It seems to be the opinion of the Coblogger Brain Trust that Mubarak's generous offer to remain president until September is not generous and will not be accepted. Drew and Russ both agree that September is too far off, and the Finally Exploding Arab Street wants him gone now.

They view this as an attempt to negotiate from a position of almost no strength at all, and will be treated as such.

Democracy or Islamist Totalitarianism? Yes Please! A commenter asked what the Egyptians want, phrasing it as a one or the other.

What if it's both?

Byron York has a useful article on the utterly incoherent views of an infantilized people, where...

...the Pew researchers found that 84 percent of Egyptians favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion.

In another survey, Pew found that 90 percent of Egyptians say they believe in freedom of religion.

The Arab world tends to be childish about defining things, as children do, in terms of different rules for me and different rules for thee. If you read York's piece, the only reconciliation for all these plainly incompatible beliefs (and there's a welter of them) is that they mean things like, "I support freedom of religion, by which I mean my freedom to impose my religion on you," and "I support freedom of speech, by which I mean my own freedom to speak, and my further freedom to stop you from saying things I don't like."

That reminds me of the Muslim incoherence on bin Ladin just after 9/11. You had parades in his honor, with people carrying placards stating two things:

1. bin Ladin had nothing to do with 9/11; it was the Jews and the CIA.

2. bin Ladin is the hero of 9/11.

Makes no sense. Why are the Jews and the CIA not the heroes, then?

Didn't stop the Islamic Rage Monkeys from screaming both.

Posted by: Ace at 01:58 PM



Comments

1 Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel,

Saves us the trouble.

Posted by: Samantha Power at February 01, 2011 01:59 PM (9hSKh)

2 Osama needs a job.

Posted by: Cherry π at February 01, 2011 02:00 PM (+sBB4)

3 If we're taking bets, my monies on Israel...

Posted by: Donna at February 01, 2011 02:00 PM (DhK9/)

4 This report hasn't been independently confirmed, as per local Fox radio news.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at February 01, 2011 02:01 PM (9hSKh)

5 Guess we know where Iran gets its first operational nuke from.

Posted by: sifty at February 01, 2011 02:01 PM (z5j8j)

6 Better strap some Hellfire missiles and some headers on the Stuxnet and get it over to Egypt.

Posted by: sifty at February 01, 2011 02:02 PM (z5j8j)

7 Rumors that Mubarark's next move will be selling roasted chestnuts from the top of a recycled oil barrel stove in a Parisian suburb are totally unfounded.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:03 PM (AZGON)

8 that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel
Alright. Let's do this already.

Posted by: B+ Obama at February 01, 2011 02:03 PM (wZScH)

9 I don't think this placates the crowd... Food and Fuel prices are still up, and this is not the fundamental change the Mob is looking for...
May send part of the crowd home... but not a whole lot of them IMO.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 01, 2011 02:03 PM (AdK6a)

10 Poor Israel!

Posted by: moi at February 01, 2011 02:04 PM (Ez4Ql)

11 Another day, another Caliphate. Yawn.

Posted by: Cherry π at February 01, 2011 02:05 PM (+sBB4)

12 As a humanitarian gesture, I have ordered the 101st Airborne Division to drop DVD copies of my Cairo speech in 2009. We as a people can do no less, my fellow world citizens below Canada.

Posted by: B. Hussein Obama at February 01, 2011 02:06 PM (AZGON)

13 Mubarak to speak soon. Ya know I wish he would just stand up and shoot them all a big fat moon and tell them to stuff it.

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 01, 2011 02:06 PM (0GFWk)

14 I thought he wasn't going to run in the upcoming elections anyway, as part of the handover to the next pharaoh President in the line of succession, his son.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 01, 2011 02:07 PM (3YYhR)

15 Sorry if this is obvious and I've missed it but are Egyptians really looking for democracy and freedom or full blown nutbag islamofacism?
Because this douche bag from the Muzzy Brutha'hood seems to think it's the latter.

Posted by: Roadking at February 01, 2011 02:07 PM (3kYoP)

16 5
Guess we know where Iran gets its first operational nuke from.

I dunno about that. If Iran has operational nukes now, they are probably of Pakistani design (thanks to KHAN!!!!! - the AQ variety, not the Star Trek version).

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at February 01, 2011 02:07 PM (9hSKh)

17 Good. Good.

Posted by: Ben at February 01, 2011 02:08 PM (wuv1c)

18 A leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt told the Arabic-language Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel
You'll find that going up against the Israeli military isn't like blowing up a bus full of defenseless civilians, you fat islamic turd. Ask Nasser.

Posted by: Cicero at February 01, 2011 02:08 PM (QKKT0)

19 Did WW3 just start?

Posted by: Cherry π at February 01, 2011 02:08 PM (+sBB4)

20 Who builds Hellfire missiles? 2500 Egyptian tanks @ a couple of missiles apiece ... stock buying opportunity!

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 01, 2011 02:09 PM (3YYhR)

21 You'll find that going up against the Israeli military isn't like blowing up a bus full of defenseless civilians, you fat islamic turd. Ask Nasser.

Posted by: Cicero at February 01, 2011 02:08 PM (QKKT0)

What do you mean? I won all those Wars

Posted by: Nasser at February 01, 2011 02:09 PM (0GFWk)

22 If Iran has operational nukes now, they are probably of Pakistani design (thanks to KHAN!!!!! - the AQ variety, not the Star Trek version).

Khan... I'm laughing at the superior weapon design.

Posted by: Jamal Tiberius Khirk at February 01, 2011 02:09 PM (AZGON)

23 I know this isOT on this thread but nobody left on the crazy white powder thread and since tehmedia are busy reporting on Egypt and stuff but another story you won't be hearing about a 47 year old "UMass student" from Northampton, MAarrested for death threat against a state rep in Florida. But again doesn't fit the narrative:
Manuel E. Pintado threatened William Snyder (R) and his family in an email. The UMass student was upset over Snyders support of an Arizona type immigration law.
(yawn)

Posted by: bostonchannel at February 01, 2011 02:09 PM (udlO2)

24 How do you awaken the flesh-eating beetles and cat-mummies?

Posted by: Joanie (Oven Gloves) at February 01, 2011 02:10 PM (HaYO4)

25 So, the results of Obama's foreign policy;

No disruption of the Islamist regime in Iran
Possibly an Islamist regime in Egypt
Our alliances in shambles
War, perhaps nuclear, in the Middle East

Well, good thing the adults are in charge, eh?

Posted by: 18-1 at February 01, 2011 02:10 PM (bgcml)

26 If it's fuel prices driving food prices driving unrest, I got some more drilling moratoria in mind...

Posted by: B. Hussein! Osbama at February 01, 2011 02:10 PM (FcR7P)

27 Did WW3 just start?
No, but if Egypt and Jordan both turn on Israel then look the fuck out.

Posted by: Roadking at February 01, 2011 02:11 PM (3kYoP)

28 This report hasn't been independently confirmed, as per local Fox radio news.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at February 01, 2011 02:01 PM (9hSKh)
Al Jazeera is reporting that "Mubarak will speak shortly and offer a 'solution' after protests."

Posted by: Tami at February 01, 2011 02:11 PM (VuLos)

29 How do you awaken the flesh-eating beetles and cat-mummies?
Posted by: Joanie (Oven Gloves) at February 01, 2011 02:10 PM (HaYO4)

Make a bad movie

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 01, 2011 02:11 PM (0GFWk)

30 Orderly transition to what? The group with the biggest guns? Proclivity for unmitigated violence to achieve their aims?

Yeah, I am thinking Obama and Clinton didn't quite think this through when they met and encouraged the Muslim Brotherhood and tossed Mubarak under the bus.

Gee I wonder what Jordan and the Saudi's are thinking.....

Posted by: Marcus at February 01, 2011 02:11 PM (CHrmZ)

31 Manuel E. Pintado threatened William Snyder (R) and his family in an email. The UMass student was upset over Snyders support of an Arizona type immigration law.

Clearly Sarah Palin is not satisfied with slaughtering Democrats; now like Saturn she eats her own.

I'm so clever, I listen to NPR.

Posted by: average moonbat at February 01, 2011 02:12 PM (AZGON)

32 Did WW3 just start?
No, but if Egypt and Jordan both turn on Israel then look the fuck out.
Settle down people, my wife has this whole thing figured out.

Posted by: President of teh World, Bill Clinton at February 01, 2011 02:12 PM (udlO2)

33

Egypt will shortly be on the road to responsiblility. But like
children, they don't grow up fast, and you can expect a lot of fights
and calamities along the process of maturation.


They
The Illuminati got to Ace mid-sentence!

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 01, 2011 02:12 PM (3YYhR)

34 FUCKING GODDAMN FUCKING USELESS FUCKING FORMATTING

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 01, 2011 02:12 PM (3YYhR)

35 Hey, I gave them freedom with my speech. If they choose the Muslim Brotherhood, what am I to do?

Posted by: B to the Ozo at February 01, 2011 02:13 PM (FcR7P)

36 And so insulated, they can fantasize about how wonderful their blocked plans would be if only they could carry them through.

And they tend then to adopt the bad habits of minors, self-pity, scapegoating, fantasy, magical thinking, and so on.



See also: hyper-partisan members of the American left.

Posted by: ooOOOooo at February 01, 2011 02:14 PM (5Hd8E)

37 A people blocked from democracy become infantilized. They are not trusted to manage their own affairs. Like minors. And like minors, they are protected from the consequences of their own preferred actions, since they're prevented from ever taking those actions. And so insulated, they can fantasize about how wonderful their blocked plans would be if only they could carry them through.
And they tend then to adopt the bad habits of minors, self-pity, scapegoating, fantasy, magical thinking, and so on. 90% of the Muslim world is infantilized in this way.
Gee, that sure sounds a lot like the socialist paradise nanny state the leftards are doing their damndest to establish here.

Posted by: maddogg at February 01, 2011 02:14 PM (OlN4e)

38 Let me just go on record saying I don't get why people think Christopher Hitchens is so brilliant.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 01, 2011 02:14 PM (TpXEI)

39 "No, but if Egypt and Jordan both turn on Israel then look the fuck out."

But of course, this must be next. The Egyptian deal with Israel is kaput.

Posted by: Cherry π at February 01, 2011 02:14 PM (+sBB4)

40 20 Who builds Hellfire missiles? 2500 Egyptian tanks @ a couple of missiles apiece ... stock buying opportunity!
Posted by: Waterhouse at February 01, 2011 02:09 PM (3YYhR)
Israelis make their own Spike missles...

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 01, 2011 02:14 PM (AdK6a)

41 >>>Gee, that sure sounds a lot like the socialist paradise nanny state the leftards are doing their damndest to establish here.

hah yeah, I originally was going to mention Obama in this context.

Posted by: ace at February 01, 2011 02:15 PM (nj1bB)

42 What Egypt needs is a Lord of the Flies Moment.

Posted by: Barky the Orator at February 01, 2011 02:15 PM (GwPRU)

43 You know who this helps?

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 01, 2011 02:16 PM (SJ6/3)

44 You know who this helps?
Oh shit. You've summoned Dan.

Posted by: Cicero at February 01, 2011 02:16 PM (QKKT0)

45 Here's the script...

Of course, the intifada will begin anew, prompting Israel to return fire. Which in turn brings out the Perpetual Rage pics.

Obama will demand that Israel cease fire. He will also demand concessions, or else.

Posted by: Cherry π at February 01, 2011 02:17 PM (+sBB4)

46 You know who this helps?
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 01, 2011 02:16 PM (SJ6/3)

Iran, North Korea, China, Russia

I mean just off the top of my head

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 01, 2011 02:17 PM (0GFWk)

47 they tend then to adopt the bad habits of minors, self-pity, scapegoating, fantasy, magical thinking
I didn't know you knew my son.

Posted by: shmoe at February 01, 2011 02:17 PM (xs5wK)

48 25
So, the results of Obama's foreign policy;

No disruption of the
Islamist regime in Iran
Possibly an Islamist regime in Egypt
Our
alliances in shambles
War, perhaps nuclear, in the Middle East
US troops in an pre-announced withdrawal situation in Afghanistan
Well,
good thing the adults are in charge, eh?


Posted by: 18-1 at February 01, 2011 02:10 PM (bgcml)
And he has two years to go. So far, everything is going according to plan.

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 01, 2011 02:17 PM (alr7n)

49 15
Sorry if this is obvious and I've missed it but are Egyptians really looking for democracy and freedom or full blown nutbag islamofacism?
Because this douche bag from the Muzzy Brutha'hood seems to think it's the latter.
Posted by: Roadking at February 01, 2011 02:07 PM (3kYoP)
Well I believe that to answer your question the best way is to look at Iran. They consider themselves to be democratic. So, are they looking for democracy or islamofacism? The answer in their minds is "Yes"

Posted by: buzzion at February 01, 2011 02:17 PM (oVQFe)

50 MSNBC just got an advanced copy of Mubaracks speech.
He will be announcing funding for High Speed Trains with Salad Bars!

Posted by: robtr at February 01, 2011 02:18 PM (hVDig)

51 And they tend then to adopt the bad habits of minors, self-pity, scapegoating, fantasy, magical thinking, and so on

We need to protect this innocent stage. At least up to the age of 26.

Posted by: Obamacare at February 01, 2011 02:18 PM (AZGON)

52 He will be announcing funding for High Speed Trains with Salad Bars!
The mob still wants flourescent light bulbs.

Posted by: Cicero at February 01, 2011 02:19 PM (QKKT0)

53 Quit worrying people, this administration will not allow any blocking of that strategic Egyptian waterway, the Alimentary Canal. Let me clear on that!

Posted by: Barack I, Duly Elected Emperor of Your Sorry Ass at February 01, 2011 02:19 PM (ERJIu)

54
He will be announcing funding for High Speed
Trains with Salad Bars!

Posted by: robtr at February 01, 2011 02:18 PM (hVDig)
Ah yes, the salad bars were the one thing that was missing from the high speed rail discussions.

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 01, 2011 02:19 PM (alr7n)

55 Of course, the intifada will begin anew, prompting Israel to return fire. Which in turn brings out the Perpetual Rage pics.Oh goodie. I wonder if Islamic rage boy is still in Nasa/Muslim outreach astronaut training program still. I was disappointed not to see him in recent mob photos from Egypt, Tunisia, Jordan, etc., etc., etc.

Posted by: President of teh World, Bill Clinton at February 01, 2011 02:20 PM (udlO2)

56

And they tend then to adopt the bad habits of minors, self-pity,
scapegoating, fantasy, magical thinking, and so on. 90% of the Muslim
world is infantilized in this way.


That's arab culture. The reason 90% of the muslim world is like this is because islam is the formalization of desert arab culture and forces these attitudes on those who submit to islam. You have to understand the nature of tribalism/shame/revenge cultures, which totally escapes most Westerners, as our cultures are Individualism/Guilt/Atonement based, where these sorts of attitudes are integral parts.

Guilt is an individualistic notion that is private in nature, where the power is fully in the hands of the individual. I cannot be made to feel guilt because of someone else's actions, only my thoughts and actions can lead to my guilt (though this guilt reponse has gone awry in Western liberals). Further, only I need to know what I did to feel guilty. It is a private notion.
Shame, on the other hand, is a purely public, collectivist notion. The individual has no control over shame. He can be shamed by the actions of others - even if they didn't intend to shame his tribe/group. Further, shame is a totally public notion. One cannot be shamed unless others know about it.
When we feel guilt, we alleviate it through atonement. When a tribalist feels shame, he alleviates it through revenge. The shame society has no control over itself, but is always subject to the whims and actions of others.

This problem that you describe has nothing to do with democracy or people's ability to freely express themselves. It is cultural.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at February 01, 2011 02:20 PM (N49h9)

57 So if Mubarak is out, does this mean we can finally stop with all the financial aid and selling military tech to Egypt?

Posted by: Rickshaw Jack at February 01, 2011 02:20 PM (7lYL3)

58 There's a lot of downside to Islamists coming to power, and certainly on
the whole it's a bad thing we don't wish to see happen. But, if
you're casting about for a bright side, it's this: Their crude,
childish fantasies will be put the hard test of reality. Like an
experiment, they'll be either proven right or, uh, much more likely,
proven catastrophically and stupidly wrong

Actually, those with childish fantasies supporting the rise of what eventually becomes an Islamic power are generally thrown in jail, tortured or forced to live in a society which is less free then the "dictatorship" they wanted replaced. Then the cycle begins again. We give one of their jailed "leaders" the Nobel prize, relabel the now disaffected supporters of the Islamists "freedom fighters", make nice speeches about how they are oppressed and throw millions of American taxpayer dollars down the drain supporting their struggle.

Meanwhile if they would have been a little more anti-American in their orientation and we a bit smarter about our diplomacy and definition of "transition" and who the acceptable alternatives would be the whole mess could have been avoided. See Lebanon, Iran, etc.


Posted by: Marcus at February 01, 2011 02:21 PM (CHrmZ)

59 A people blocked from democracy become infantilized.

Counter-example, see Europe. They vote, but everything is decided in Brussels or Berlin or Paris, etc. It's not democracy, per se, it's individual power and choice and responsibility that people must have.

Posted by: t-bird at February 01, 2011 02:21 PM (FcR7P)

60 >>A leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt told the Arabic-language Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel, according to the Hebrew-language business newspaper Calcalist.

It's been very interesting listening to many of the intelligentsia going on and on over the last few days about how moderate the MB has become over the last few decades but as soon as they are given the smallest hope of power the mask slips and their true identity emerges.

They may have some level of support in Egypt today, caused mostly by the repression Mubarak's gov't placed on the population but I suspect a majority of the population doesn't see going to war with Israel as the key to a better life.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 01, 2011 02:21 PM (TMB3S)

61 I have a different take. With the "muslim" problems throughout Europe and Russia, wouldn't it be possible that they all see this as an opportunity, and join Israel to eliminate the muslims?

Posted by: chillin the most at February 01, 2011 02:22 PM (6IV8T)

62 err, meant a little less anti American.

Posted by: Marcus at February 01, 2011 02:22 PM (CHrmZ)

63 I disagree with the Coblogging brain trust.
They will accept this. The WSJ has a good article on this today. With each passing day, the protesters grow weaker not stronger.
With every town that is looting, museum that is ransacked, and store shelf that is not restocked, the average Egyptian becomes less and less enamoured with the protest.
I bet they accept Mubarak's promise to not run in September.

Posted by: Ben at February 01, 2011 02:22 PM (wuv1c)

64 Hey, don't worry too much, Hosni. You can just hang around the gas station with your fellow deposed dictators!

Posted by: Benito Mussolini at February 01, 2011 02:23 PM (ERJIu)

65 That's arab culture. The reason 90% of the muslim world is like this is because islam is the formalization of desert arab culture and forces these attitudes on those who submit to islam. You have to understand the nature of tribalism/shame/revenge cultures, which totally escapes most Westerners, as our cultures are Individualism/Guilt/Atonement based, where these sorts of attitudes are integral parts
Wafa Sultan does an excellent job explaining this in her book A God Who Hates. It was very eye opening read - in a scary eye opening way.

Posted by: President of teh World, Bill Clinton at February 01, 2011 02:23 PM (udlO2)

66 So, are they looking for democracy or islamofacism? The answer in their minds is "Yes"
Posted by: buzzion at February 01, 2011 02:17 PM (oVQFe)
Def;
Islamic Democracy,
1. when voters vote only for those the Imans tell them to, or they go to hell.
2. when the only Candidates allowed on the ballot, are chosen by the Imans.
3. A contradiction in terms, much like Jumbo Shrimp.

Posted by: Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (AdK6a)

67 @57
Wow, quite the learned exposition. OTOH, it could be that they are all just a**holes.

Posted by: pep at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (P18+/)

68 And they tend then to adopt the bad habits of minors, self-pity, scapegoating, fantasy, magical thinking, and so on
Is this a post on the current situation in the Middle East or a J.D. Salinger book review?

Posted by: Ben at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (wuv1c)

69 Well I believe that to answer your question the best way is to look at Iran. They consider themselves to be democratic. So, are they looking for democracy or islamofacism? The answer in their minds is "Yes"
The same I ran who's streets ran with blood a year ago because they wanted a truly fair election and not the sham that was forced upon them? Not sure I follow.
I guess if by "they" you mean the mullahs and Ahmidinejad then Iran works in that context.
I'm wondering what do the people really want not some douch bag islamo rage boy who does notwant to let a good crisis go to waiste so he clamors for a war with Israel.

Posted by: Roadking at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (3kYoP)

70 Steppin' out of my country
Can't go wrong 'cause I'm in flight
It's for sure, not for maybe
That I'm deposed tonight

Steppin' out with my camel
Can't be bad, her toes look good
While the mob may try to trammel
I'll woo her like I should

Posted by: Hosni Mubarak at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (AZGON)

71 I have a different take. With the "muslim" problems throughout Europe and Russia, wouldn't it be possible that they all see this as an opportunity, and join Israel to eliminate the muslims?
Posted by: chillin the most at February 01, 2011 02:22 PM (6IV8T)

No more likely the Russians will offer to throw the Arabs some Jews to leave them alone

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (0GFWk)

72 iknowtheleft,

I had heard of arabs that they had a "shame based culture" but I honestly never understood the distinction being drawn until you just explained it.

Posted by: ace at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (nj1bB)

73 I have a friend in Egypt who won't stand for re-election. Because they've broken his legs.

My idol Barack would not let this happen, but you evil haters would. Poopy-heads.

Posted by: Kelly at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (hL0k8)

74 iknowtheleft

I for one am very happy with their Insallah mindset.
It has saved a ton of people. Namely infidels.

Posted by: Rickshaw Jack at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (7lYL3)

75 20 Who builds Hellfire missiles? 2500 Egyptian tanks @ a couple of missiles apiece ... stock buying opportunity!
Posted by: Waterhouse at February 01, 2011 02:09 PM (3YYhR)

Lockheed Martin. BUY buy buy!

Posted by: People of PA at February 01, 2011 02:25 PM (RD7QR)

76 Attacking Israel seems a sound strategy. Egypt has excess population that they can not feed. The Sinai could use the fertilizer. Win win.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 01, 2011 02:25 PM (SJ6/3)

77 With each passing day, the protesters grow weaker not stronger.

Ben, if it turns out that way, could you get any more egg on Obama's face?

Posted by: t-bird at February 01, 2011 02:25 PM (FcR7P)

78 So if Mubarak is out, does this mean we can finally stop with all the financial aid and selling military tech to Egypt?
Great - there's the funding for high speed rail with salad bars. Problem solved.

Posted by: Solid B+ at February 01, 2011 02:25 PM (udlO2)

79 I bet they accept Mubarak's promise to not run in September.

Odds are very good if they do, Mubarak will start offing the opposition and make sure he anoints his successor (or just breaks his promise).

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 01, 2011 02:25 PM (TpXEI)

80 Let me just go on record saying I don't get why people think Christopher Hitchens is so brilliant.
Because when he has a thought or writes a thing that isn't sullied by the ideology of his post-adolescence or the prejudices of his class (but I repeat myself), he is brilliant.
There was a while when almost everything he did wasn't rote Brit shit, and that's when most people started paying attention to him, so they think the guy who did that stuff is who he really is. And It isn't. He's just some (it's OK to say this, because he's British, right?) cunt.
First impressions are very sticky.

Posted by: oblig. at February 01, 2011 02:25 PM (xvZW9)

81 When we feel guilt, we alleviate it through atonement.
Actually, I was able to jettison my personal sense of guilt as redundant.....I got married.

Posted by: maddogg at February 01, 2011 02:25 PM (OlN4e)

82 Oh get this....Al Jaz is reporting that "THE NYT is reporting that "Obama TOLD Mubarak not to run for re-election."

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY BARACK!

Posted by: Tami at February 01, 2011 02:27 PM (VuLos)

83 Re: Democracy or Islamofascism

see update, byron york discusses this.

Posted by: ace at February 01, 2011 02:29 PM (nj1bB)

84 bet they accept Mubarak's promise to not run in September.Odds are very good if they do, Mubarak will start offing the opposition and make sure he anoints his successor (or just breaks his promise).
My guess is that he promises not to run, it is accepted by the general public, and Mubarak lets Suliman run things until September, putingSuliman in a good position to win a legitimate election.
I think your average Egyptian, the business owner, the non-radical, wants change, but orderly change. And as the protests linger, they are getting a good picture of what an orderless transition would look like. They will side with the lesser of two evils, which is Mubarak and some stability for the next 8 months until elections are held.
Or maybe Mubarak will offer to call elections sooner

Posted by: Ben at February 01, 2011 02:29 PM (wuv1c)

85 83
Oh get this....Al Jaz is reporting that "THE NYT is reporting that
"Obama TOLD Mubarak not to run for re-election."

ALL HAIL THE
MIGHTY BARACK!


Posted by: Tami at February 01, 2011 02:27 PM (VuLos)

Are we ahead of the curve or what!

Posted by: David Axleturf at February 01, 2011 02:30 PM (alr7n)

86 ...the Pew researchers found that 84 percent of Egyptians favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion.
--
In another survey, Pew found that 90 percent of Egyptians say they believe in freedom of religion.

So Egyptians think like Democrats?

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:30 PM (AZGON)

87 If they do get truely free and fair democratic elections in Egypt, there's little reason to believe that they won't take the same path they always do in that part of the world- one man, one vote, one time.
The odds that the next leader of Egypt will be in power for anything less than 15 years aren't good, even if they enact term limits.
We're going to look kinda stupid if Egypt decides to use it's F16's and Abrams tanks against Israel.
The only real card we have is the $1 billion+ of aid every year. Any new regime would know that if they decide to close the canal and abandon peace with Israel, that aid money goes away.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 01, 2011 02:31 PM (SY2Kh)

88 I totally supported and encouraged however this turns out. I'm off to Oslo to nominate myself.

Posted by: Nobel Barry at February 01, 2011 02:31 PM (FcR7P)

89 I am absolutely confident that we made the right decision. And not only that, I'm absolutely confident that the actions we took in Iraq are influencing reformers and freedom lovers in the greater Middle East. And I believe that you're going to see the rise of democracy in many countries in the broader Middle East, which will lay the foundation for peace

Posted by: Carl at February 01, 2011 02:31 PM (OG3qc)

90 87
...the Pew researchers found that 84 percent of Egyptians favor the
death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion.


--


In another survey, Pew found that 90 percent of Egyptians say they
believe in freedom of religion.





So Egyptians think like Democrats?

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:30 PM (AZGON)
Yes, there is but one religion and it is Islam, thus it is quite easy to have freedom of religion AND kill Jews and infidel dogs!

Posted by: David Axleturf at February 01, 2011 02:32 PM (alr7n)

91 The same I ran who's streets ran with blood a year ago because they wanted a truly fair election and not the sham that was forced upon them? Not sure I follow.
I guess if by "they" you mean the mullahs and Ahmidinejad then Iran works in that context.
I'm wondering what do the people really want not some douch bag islamo rage boy who does notwant to let a good crisis go to waiste so he clamors for a war with Israel.
Posted by: Roadking at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (3kYoP)
And it only took them, what? Three decades to get to that point? And they weren't screaming for the mullahs to relinquish power, just DinnerJacket.
So what I expect to happen ultimately is that Egypt will get its "democracy" in the same sense that Iran has one, with the Muslim Brotherhood playing the part of the mullahs and the mulsims will think its awesome and that they actually have freedom.

Posted by: buzzion at February 01, 2011 02:32 PM (oVQFe)

92 Byron York's piece comports with what Claire Berlinski had to say about the region on the latest Ricochet podcast; she lives in Istanbul. The region is not as simple as many think, and it won't be a binary choice of Mubarak or the Muzzie Brotherhood. More complex.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:32 PM (AZGON)

93 Posted by: ace at February 01, 2011 02:24 PM (nj1bB)

I'm glad to help. Most of the problems and differences between the West and the islamic world can be easily explained and better understood in this context.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at February 01, 2011 02:33 PM (N49h9)

94 Almonds at the snack bar!

Posted by: Because it's always a good time to quote Treacher at February 01, 2011 02:33 PM (3YYhR)

95 Hmm... Al-Jism-ra does report that the NYT reports diplomatic sources say Barry told Mubarak not to run again.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:34 PM (AZGON)

96 A commenter said last week that the Muslim country with the most stable and respresentative government was... Iraq.

Which may not be strictly true (singapore, malaysia), but it's like top three or four, eh?

Posted by: ace at February 01, 2011 02:34 PM (nj1bB)

97 81. Thank you. Exactly.

Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 02:34 PM (0Hp4r)

98 You know who this helps?

Um, not the USA, not Israel, not anybody who uses energy or likes to eat three meals a day, or live in peace.
In that brief moment of time, in between the election of Obama in 2008 and his actually taking over the ofice in Jan 2009, I would try and imagine just how and where things would start to collapse.
I knew things were going to get very very bad. I just couldn't, at that point, see exactly how it would happen. But I knew we were in for high unemployment, high energy prices, and eventual shortages of life's necessities.
Except for the very old among us, who remembers food rationing in the 1940's? The heavy hand of government ruling every aspect of your life. I have a bad feeling about this spark of "democracy" that has ignited the mobs for "freedom" in the middle east. I hope I'm wrong, but I can see these days going down in the history books as the pivotal point before all hell breaks loose.

Posted by: Boots at February 01, 2011 02:34 PM (neKzn)

99 Who builds Hellfire missiles?

Lockheed Martin LMT

Posted by: toby928 at February 01, 2011 02:35 PM (GTbGH)

100 But, if you're casting about for a bright side, it's this: Their crude, childish fantasies will be put the hard test of reality. Like an experiment, they'll be either proven right or, uh, much more likely, proven catastrophically and stupidly wrong.
The problem with this is that their religion advocates and encourages repression and violence towards infidels. They'll never be "proven" wrong unless their wills are broken and they are beaten into submission (see Imperial Japan).
The communists really missed the boat when they took up atheism, they should have taken up liberation theology from the very beginning.It's a lot easier to get people to kill and die for Allah than it is to get them to kill and die for some political philosophy like communism.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at February 01, 2011 02:35 PM (JxMoP)

101 Well, I guess I can scratch one name off my Happy Ramadan card list.

Posted by: King Abdullah at February 01, 2011 02:36 PM (AZGON)

102 "Did I say I won't stand for election later this year? I'm sorry what I meant to say is: 'I won't stand for elections later this year.' Now go get your shinebox!"

Posted by: scofflaw at February 01, 2011 02:37 PM (6nPvx)

103 OK, now we hear that OBAMA asked Mubarak not to run this September.

Through an ex-ambassador named Wisner. Whom Jake Tapper this morning called an "Obama envoy." Bypassing the State department.

Bolton on Fox. Says given that Mubarak will step down and his son won't run.

So does the White house push for him to leave immediately? Bolton thinks that Mubarak should stay until September and keep things stable and that we should work with the Egyptian Army to get an election with a smooth transition.

Also says that democracy is not just having elections. Cannot have groups challenging elections with armed force, like Hamas.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 01, 2011 02:39 PM (Fo83G)

104 Boots, the natural state of man is to be in a state of servitude, hungry, cold, and wondering which "government agent/tax collector" is going to knock on his cave door next.
The muzzies are just assisting us in getting back to basics faster than the progs have been able to do (and they have done far more than I ever thought possible).

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 01, 2011 02:39 PM (alr7n)

105 I grasp that we give money to other countries so that they like us? We feel guilty? Some reason more complicated. Yet even with millions given, they still hate us. I wonder if they would like us more if we didn't give them money. I also grasp that often that money goes to their govt for stability or bribery purposes. That doesn't seem to work well either. Perhaps nothing would work as well. "I hate america" should always be followed with "then don't take our money or protection."

Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 02:39 PM (0Hp4r)

106 From the update:

Whatever comes next, it will likely have an anti-American flavor

Of course. And no wonder the leftards are so atwitter.

Posted by: maddogg at February 01, 2011 02:39 PM (OlN4e)

107 What 37 said.

Posted by: Dennis at February 01, 2011 02:39 PM (cY2vO)

108 Let's see if we can get Mubarak to ask Obama not to run.

Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 02:39 PM (0Hp4r)

109 Man, Al-Jism-ra is hilarious. The inteviewer and the guest are arguing about when Tahrir Square was renamed. "Look it up, it's recorded!" It was women unveiling! No, it was Nasser after the revolution!

Punctilious nonsense amid a society falling apart.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:40 PM (AZGON)

110 "There's a lot of downside to Islamists coming to power, and certainly on the whole it's a bad thing we don't wish to see happen. But, if you're casting about for a bright side, it's this: Their crude, childish fantasies will be put the hard test of reality. Like an experiment, they'll be either proven right or, uh, much more likely, proven catastrophically and stupidly wrong.
"But this, alas, takes years and years. The mullahs still control Iran. Hamas hasn't particularly learned from its constant errors and failures. Hezbollah just took over a country (having previously only owned half of it)."
While the Iranian mullahs and Hamas and Hezbollah have not learned much about good governance in the last decades, their subjects have learned a lot about them. The people living under those regimes arealso looking for opportunities their leaders have denied them or destroyed- Iran's economy is collapsing, Lebanon's is threatened by the shadow of civilwar, and Gaza's is as rotten as Egypt's.
In Iran, Lebanon and Gaza, there are big constituencies for pushing the mullahs and imams and theocrats out of power. Note that Iran and Gaza both fear a real free and fair election; Lebanon, by virtue of its enforced religious balancing act in its government, hasn't experienced the full force of the problem of bad Hezbollah governance, but it has experienced the crushing violence associated with Hezbollah's machinations.

Posted by: stuiec at February 01, 2011 02:40 PM (Di3Im)

111 buzzion at February 01, 2011 02:32 PM (oVQFe)
Agreed. That context makes more sense - thanks. I could see them going for that watered down bullshit as you described. That's all they know and as Ace mentioned above how much are they really willing to actually do for themselves?
Because at some point you have to stop throwing rocks and burning someone elses shit and start doing some of that "free living".

Posted by: Roadking at February 01, 2011 02:40 PM (3kYoP)

112 Also says that democracy is not just having
elections. Cannot have groups challenging elections with armed force,
like Hamas.


Posted by: Miss Marple at February 01, 2011 02:39 PM (Fo83G)

You mean like the New Black Panthers operating with the de facto approval of the DoJ?

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 01, 2011 02:41 PM (alr7n)

113 Ace said "A people blocked from democracy become infantilized. They are not
trusted to manage their own affairs. Like minors. And like minors,
they are protected from the consequences of their own preferred actions,
since they're prevented from ever taking those actions. And so
insulated, they can fantasize about how wonderful their blocked plans
would be if only they could carry them through."

I wonder if the British papers said stuff like this about the colonists.


Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 02:41 PM (p302b)

114 Let's see if we can get Mubarak to ask Obama not to run.

Maybe the Egyptians can have him.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:41 PM (AZGON)

115 Does prepare for war with Israel mean write a will, and phone 6 of your closest friends?

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 01, 2011 02:41 PM (SJ6/3)

116 Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:40 PM (AZGON)

Seems the Egyptian people are wanting a name change, they are calling it "Liberty Square".

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 02:42 PM (p302b)

117 Muslims define freedom of religion differently than Westerners, who think of it as the freedom of the individual to worship whatever religion he chooses. Muslims think of it as not an individual thing, but rather the group's ability to practice Islam. Anywhere where Islam can be practiced freely has freedom of religion, even if other religions are persecuted by Islam. If a Muslim rejects Islam and is executed for it, Muslims still consider themselves to practice freedom of religion because Islam has no constraint on it.
It's kinda like Henry Ford's idea of choice of color for Model T. You can pick any color you want as long as it's black.

Posted by: Tantor at February 01, 2011 02:43 PM (blNMI)

118 curious, did you see the interviewer and some historian guest arguing about a name change decades ago? So silly.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:44 PM (AZGON)

119 Posted by: Tantor at February 01, 2011 02:43 PM (blNMI)

Even the health care system allows the chosen, the winners, to get waivers.

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 02:44 PM (p302b)

120 This Egypt thing will be very telling as to what happens in the Middle East. If the Muslim Brotherhood takes over Egypt it is the end of the Middle East and Israel will have to do whatever it needs to do to protect itself. At all costs, Muslim Brotherhood must not take over Egypt.

When they were invited to Obama's speech in Cairo it was a bad sign. I hope t his is not the beginning of the what was it "if the winds ... whatever he will side with the Muslims"

Does anyone know what the exact quote was and was it in one of his books?

Posted by: gesc at February 01, 2011 02:44 PM (u8NJ3)

121 Because at some point you have to stop throwing rocks and burning someone elses shit and start doing some of that "free living".
Dude do NOT remind us, graduation a few short months away.

Posted by: College Seniors in London who protest tuition hikes at February 01, 2011 02:44 PM (udlO2)

122 >>>Seems the Egyptian people are wanting a name change, they are calling it "Liberty Square".

I believe it was always called "Liberation Square."

Posted by: ace at February 01, 2011 02:44 PM (nj1bB)

123 It's kinda like Henry Ford's idea of choice of color for Model T. You can pick any color you want as long as it's black.

I see no problem here.

Posted by: B. Hussein Obama at February 01, 2011 02:44 PM (AZGON)

124 Which may not be strictly true (singapore, malaysia), but it's like top three or four, eh?

Posted by: ace at February 01, 2011 02:34 PM (nj1bB)
I'd hardly call Singapore a Muslim country. There are way more Buddhists, Hindus and Christians than Muslims.

Posted by: Tami at February 01, 2011 02:45 PM (VuLos)

125 Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:44 PM (AZGON)

I can't look at links right now but I am noticing a lot of behavior here and in the world that is sort of not explainable in a rational sense.

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 02:45 PM (p302b)

126 Tami,

ah, okay. Well I guess I just meant Malaysia. So top two.

Posted by: ace at February 01, 2011 02:45 PM (nj1bB)

127 Shit. Dick Morris says obamacare is D.O.A.
I was hopeful.

Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 02:45 PM (0Hp4r)

128 This interviewer and some historian on Al-Jism-Ra were arguing about minutiae regarding when the square was named "Liberation Square." It was very funny and unprofessional.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:46 PM (AZGON)

129 The US always gets shit backwards... don't worry so much about political freedom but rather emphasize economic freedom. The dictator/tyrants in China are smart: pursue economic liberalizations and folks are too busy getting rich to protest. I always thought this was a mistake in Iraq: so much emphasis on "the vote" instead of on "the job/opportunity." You want to drain the suicide bomber talent pool and the otherwise misplaced support for the Islamist agenda then give would-be suicide bombers a path to economic improvement. Is it a coincident that the IRA laid down arms in Ireland in the midst of an economic boom? No. Give people the choice between strapping on an AK-47 and taking shots at soldiers or getting a job at the new Intel plant they'll take the latter.

Had the US been promoting economic reforms in Egypt rather than political reforms Mubarak may be viewed somewhat differently by the people in Egypt. Look at Qatar as an example... a dictator who knows how to generate societal wealth for the people is not a bad thing.

Posted by: scofflaw at February 01, 2011 02:46 PM (6nPvx)

130 123
>>>Seems the Egyptian people are wanting a name change, they are calling it "Liberty Square".





I believe it was always called "Liberation Square."

Posted by: ace at February 01, 2011 02:44 PM (nj1bB)

ah, well I was just going by some personal tweets I've seen from American students who are there.

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 02:46 PM (p302b)

131 Liberty, is there an Arabic word for that?

Posted by: maddogg at February 01, 2011 02:47 PM (OlN4e)

132 Dick Morris says obamacare is D.O.A.

I was hopeful.

Dick Morris... the ceramic color-changing weather poodle of the airwaves. Except that he's always wrong.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:47 PM (AZGON)

133 >>>Liberty, is there an Arabic word for that?

jihad. it's like aloha.

Posted by: ace at February 01, 2011 02:47 PM (nj1bB)

134 Didn't Dick Morris think President Mondale was going to win?

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 01, 2011 02:48 PM (SJ6/3)

135 ah, well I was just going by some personal tweets I've seen from American students who are there.
Because they have a death wish?

Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 02:48 PM (0Hp4r)

136 Liberty, is there an Arabic word for that?

Dar al-Islam.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:48 PM (AZGON)

137 I don't really expect that anyone but the hardcore islamists will win elections in Egypt.

See Turkey for details.
I don't know what it fucking is with these goofballs in the mideast, but anytime they have the ability to move forward, they pull this shit.

I can't wait to get off this fucking planet.

Posted by: Rickshaw Jack at February 01, 2011 02:48 PM (7lYL3)

138 Shit. Dick Morris says obamacare is D.O.A.
I was hopeful.
The repeal bill was never viewed as having a chance of passing; it was just a political tactic- a way to draw a line in the sand to show the public who stands where on it.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 01, 2011 02:49 PM (SY2Kh)

139 I would bet that both the Muslim Brotherhood and Mubarek start blaming the Joos.

When things get tough, or the sun rises, it's the fault of the Joos in the ME.

Posted by: MJ at February 01, 2011 02:49 PM (BKOsZ)

140 I wish Dick Morris would shut his pie hole. That guy specializes in poisoning the well with his statements.

Posted by: maddogg at February 01, 2011 02:49 PM (OlN4e)

141 Al Jism-ra says Mubarak will speak "shortly."

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:49 PM (AZGON)

142 Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 02:48 PM (0Hp4r)

some universities were a little late on notifications to leave and they are still getting Americans out today.

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 02:49 PM (p302b)

143 Dick Morris... the ceramic color-changing weather poodle of the airwaves. Except that he's always wrong.
I know. That's why I was upset.

Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 02:49 PM (0Hp4r)

144 141
I wish Dick Morris would shut his pie hole. That guy specializes in poisoning the well with his statements.

Posted by: maddogg at February 01, 2011 02:49 PM (OlN4e)

I don't trust him either. I feel that deep down inside, he'll always be a democrat.

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 02:50 PM (p302b)

145 Forget it, Jake, it's Pharaoh Town.

Posted by: sifty at February 01, 2011 02:50 PM (z5j8j)

146 When things get tough, or the sun rises, it's the fault of the Joos in the ME everywhere.

Posted by: Joohaters at February 01, 2011 02:51 PM (udlO2)

147 I dream of Egyptian toes.

Posted by: Dick Morris at February 01, 2011 02:51 PM (AZGON)

148 I don't trust him either. I feel that deep down inside, he'll always be a democrat.
And a toe sucker. I don't know about trusting toe suckers.

Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 02:51 PM (0Hp4r)

149 147 Damn straight.

Posted by: Ron Paul at February 01, 2011 02:51 PM (SJ6/3)

150 84 percent want death to those who leave the religion.

Religion of peace?

WTF?

Posted by: Dan at February 01, 2011 02:52 PM (mXBxH)

151 And a toe sucker. I don't know about trusting toe suckers.
You don't say.

Posted by: bill belicheck at February 01, 2011 02:52 PM (udlO2)

152 The infantilization reminds me somewhat of our own fiscal problems. We know we have to cut spending and generally favor cutting spending, just not our spending. Or our general desire for a limited federal government except for the areas we approve of the government taking care of so we don't have to (like retirement, and education, and welfare, and etc).

Posted by: Cautiously Pessimistic at February 01, 2011 02:52 PM (pZEar)

153 Shit. Dick Morris says obamacare is D.O.A
Don't despair. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Posted by: Cicero at February 01, 2011 02:53 PM (QKKT0)

154 You know what this crowd in Tahrir Square needs?

Cheerleaders. Not enough cheerleaders.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 02:53 PM (AZGON)

155 didn't we send some non government person over there to talk to Hosni? I remember seeing his name, was it wilner or wilmer?

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 02:53 PM (p302b)

156 84 percent want death to those who leave the religion. Religion of peace? WTF? Yes Win The Future - what is your issue with the religion of peace?

Posted by: plouffey at February 01, 2011 02:53 PM (udlO2)

157 And a toe sucker. I don't know about trusting toe suckers.
Has he been on Youtube yet? There are a hell of a lot of toe suckers on there.

Posted by: maddogg at February 01, 2011 02:53 PM (OlN4e)

158 The US always gets shit backwards... don't worry so
much about political freedom but rather emphasize economic freedom.


Posted by: scofflaw at February 01, 2011 02:46 PM (6nPvx)
A little hard to have economic freedom without little things like law, property rights, and confidence that big brother won't come and kill you.

Posted by: Oldcat at February 01, 2011 02:54 PM (z1N6a)

159 You know what this crowd in Tahrir Square needs?
---------------------
We could be making a mint selling beer and halal dogs.

Posted by: MJ at February 01, 2011 02:54 PM (BKOsZ)

160 some universities were a little late on notifications to leave and they are still getting Americans out today.
Students who were there temporarily (for a couple of weeks to visit the museums ancient sites) were the first to get out, they all had round trip tickets.
At this point, the students who had committed to a year or at least a semester at one of the universities in Cairo or Alexandria are being brought home. The universities are doing it, I've heard reports some of the students themselves think this is just another "protest day" like they have back home in the states, and they want to stick around and absorb all that revolutionary culture.

Posted by: Boots at February 01, 2011 02:54 PM (neKzn)

161 If crazy old George Lucas had just waited a while he could have had a hell of a plot for Indy 4.

Posted by: sifty at February 01, 2011 02:54 PM (z5j8j)

162 A little hard to have economic freedom without little things like law, property rights, and confidence that big brother won't come and kill you.
Apparently they don't teach the big picture in schools anymore. Little wonder students don't understand this - what with our president bowing and apologizing for us all over the world.

Posted by: Solid B+ at February 01, 2011 02:56 PM (udlO2)

163 1 WWI veteran still alive.

Posted by: Ron Paul at February 01, 2011 02:56 PM (SJ6/3)

164 Is it a coincident that the IRA laid down arms in Ireland in the midst of an economic boom? No. Give people the choice between strapping on an AK-47 and taking shots at soldiers or getting a job at the new Intel plant they'll take the latter.
Posted by: scofflaw at February 01, 2011 02:46 PM (6nPvx)
On the contrary. It's been demonstrated that successful, college educated Muz are also prone to violent Jihad. Englandproduced several all byitself. They're not like the Irish, whos motivation was merely political. Even if making them rich little Muz would reduce their violent tendencies, it would not be a cure. Any improvement would be incremental.
Anyway, while I have no proof, I believe the IRA gave in because somebody finally had the balls to tell them what was going to happen if they didn't - nasty, extra-legal things.

Posted by: Reactionary at February 01, 2011 02:56 PM (xUM1Q)

165 You realize, don't you, Ace, that your description of those primitives in Islamic andThird World countries could also apply to Obama and to the 52%ers who put that empty suit, street hustler, decadent dilletante and damned fool into power right here in this country, not all of are Democrats?

Posted by: Brian at February 01, 2011 02:56 PM (sYrWB)

166 >>scofflaw at February 01, 2011 02:46 PM (6nPvx)

Exactly. The Muslim societies that deliver the most wealth, opportunities and information to their people are also the most stable. Dictators like Mubarak keep their people poor, trapped, lacking any information that isn't state sanctioned and focused on external enemies to keep the heat off themselves.

The uprising in Egypt was launched mostly by younger, more educated and more informed people. The ability to travel outside their region and attend western schools and access the internet and other social media has shown them that everything that has been shoved down their throats by the state isn't true and they want better.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 01, 2011 02:57 PM (TMB3S)

167 Erin Burnett is doing her show from Cairo. This is her second or third day. They always manage to send her off to dangerous places in the middle east.

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 02:58 PM (p302b)

168 Rush suggests that Obama might want to see Commiecare overturned. He becomes a martyr.

Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 02:58 PM (0Hp4r)

169 Anyone know what language Hosni's speech will be? I hope I don't need the real rosetta stone to translate cuz I think the protestors got to it .... I was pissed when those damn Austrians spoke in German.

Posted by: The Prez at February 01, 2011 02:59 PM (udlO2)

170 How much suffering and misery does it take to beat sense into people? I don't know. I'm thinking at least 30 and as long as 100 years.
If Chile is any guide, it can be only 15 years.

Posted by: FireHorse at February 01, 2011 02:59 PM (sWynj)

171 Islam has been and is an immature religion.

When will it grow up enough so we can let them drive the car?

Posted by: John P. Squibob at February 01, 2011 03:00 PM (/U/Mr)

172 There are much easier ways to become a martyr. Alahu Ackbar.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 01, 2011 03:00 PM (SJ6/3)

173 I've heard reports some of the students themselves think this is just another "protest day" like they have back home in the states, and they want to stick around and absorb all that revolutionary culture.
Not that I would let my kid go to a muzzie country in the first place but I can see my oldest trying to tell me to setlle down as I screamed , Get out! Get out! Get out!

Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 03:01 PM (0Hp4r)

174 ABC news is saying that "president obama has told president mubarek not to run and that that is what he will be saying shortly"

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 03:02 PM (p302b)

175 When will it grow up enough so we can let them drive the car?
-----------------
When they learn that religion, politics, and law are best served as separate courses in the meal of life.

Posted by: MJ at February 01, 2011 03:02 PM (BKOsZ)

176 Islam has been and is an immature religion.When will it grow up enough so we can let them drive the car?
Posted by: John P. Squibob at February 01, 2011 03:00 PM (/U/Mr)
Best not hold your breath. Canibalistic voodoo priests are more likely to be become mature/enlightened.

Posted by: Reactionary at February 01, 2011 03:02 PM (xUM1Q)

177 Walk Like An Egyptian.........

Posted by: BruceTheRobert at February 01, 2011 03:03 PM (HKhLn)

178 Anyway, while I have no proof, I believe the IRA gave in because somebody finally had the balls to tell them what was going to happen if they didn't - nasty, extra-legal things.
Posted by: Reactionary at February 01, 2011 02:56 PM (xUM1Q)
I always thought they were bought-off with free Guiness...for life.

Posted by: dananjcon at February 01, 2011 03:03 PM (pr+up)

179 Dang. It's gonna be 65 tomorrow.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 01, 2011 03:04 PM (SJ6/3)

180 Erin Burnett is doing her show from Cairo. This is her second or third
day. They always manage to send her off to dangerous places in the
middle east.

That's what happens when you spurn my advances!

Posted by: Unnamed CNBC executive at February 01, 2011 03:04 PM (3YYhR)

181 57
And they tend then to adopt the bad habits of minors, self-pity,
scapegoating, fantasy, magical thinking, and so on. 90% of the Muslim
world is infantilized in this way.


That's arab
culture. The reason 90% of the muslim world is like this is because
islam is the formalization of desert arab culture and forces these
attitudes on those who submit to islam. You have to understand the
nature of tribalism/shame/revenge cultures, which totally escapes most
Westerners, as our cultures are Individualism/Guilt/Atonement based,
where these sorts of attitudes are integral parts.

Guilt is
an individualistic notion that is private in nature, where the power is
fully in the hands of the individual. I cannot be made to feel guilt
because of someone else's actions, only my thoughts and actions can lead
to my guilt (though this guilt reponse has gone awry in Western
liberals). Further, only I need to know what I did to feel guilty. It
is a private notion.
Shame, on the other hand, is a purely public,
collectivist notion. The individual has no control over shame. He can
be shamed by the actions of others - even if they didn't intend to
shame his tribe/group. Further, shame is a totally public notion. One
cannot be shamed unless others know about it.
When we feel guilt,
we alleviate it through atonement. When a tribalist feels shame, he
alleviates it through revenge. The shame society has no control over
itself, but is always subject to the whims and actions of others.

This
problem that you describe has nothing to do with democracy or people's
ability to freely express themselves. It is cultural.


Posted by: iknowtheleft at February 01, 2011 02:20 PM (N49h9)
I hope you don't mind if I repeat every word of this for its wisdom.
Reminded me of a news story showing Egyptians calling Americans hypocrites for their claims of loving freedom. What??? we ask. The example the Egyptians saw was that of America being a sugar daddy to a cruel dictator who let his people live in poverty.

Posted by: shmoe at February 01, 2011 03:05 PM (xs5wK)

182 I always thought they were bought-off with free Guiness...for life.
Posted by: dananjcon at February 01, 2011 03:03 PM (pr+up)
Hmm... Maybe so. If only the Muz were so easily bought off. But then, when your view of the world is comprised of nothing but hate, joylessness, and terror, it is probably not possible to bepacified by such pleasant, reasonable diversions.

Posted by: Reactionary at February 01, 2011 03:06 PM (xUM1Q)

183 164
1 WWI veteran still alive.Posted by: Ron Paul at February 01, 2011 02:56 PM (SJ6/3)

Which one and/or link, please

Posted by: ya2daup at February 01, 2011 03:06 PM (Wqfrr)

184 Wait till they announce King Mubarak's coronation.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 01, 2011 03:08 PM (SJ6/3)

185 Posted by: scofflaw at February 01, 2011 02:46 PM (6nPvx)

Back when I was tracking more of this stuff, my informal opinion was that one of the main reasons that the US had seen relatively little internal terrorism was that we still functioned as both a melting pot (assimilation on a low key level) and an place of relative economic freedom (immigrate, get a job, work hard, benefit from your labors).

Obamarx and his liberation theology friends (and a number of camp followers) have done their damnedest to change that (immigrate illegally, refuse to assimilate, apply for your welfare rights, hope that someone else works hard, and then benefit from their labors).

I worry for my children and grand-children!

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 01, 2011 03:08 PM (alr7n)

186 Hmm... Al-Jism-ra is on the ready at the press room at the White House... just showed a shot of the room, empty but for some technicians

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 03:08 PM (AZGON)

187 Posted by: iknowtheleft at February 01, 2011 02:20 PM (N49h9)
Brillant. Thanks.

Posted by: dagny at February 01, 2011 03:10 PM (0Hp4r)

188 WW1 veteran.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 01, 2011 03:10 PM (SJ6/3)

189 Sorry, not reading that quack Hitchens.

Posted by: wildwood at February 01, 2011 03:10 PM (VSWPU)

190 A people blocked from democracy become infantilized. They are not
trusted to manage their own affairs. Like minors. And like minors,
they are protected from the consequences of their own preferred actions,
since they're prevented from ever taking those actions. And so
insulated, they can fantasize about how wonderful their blocked plans
would be if only they could carry them through.

Sadly, I had to remind myself it was Egypt that was the context here...

Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord at February 01, 2011 03:11 PM (GBXon)

191 Well, Al-Jism-Rant keeps touting that Mubarak will speak shortly, but nothing yet... it's past 10 PM local in Cairo. Big crowd in Tahrir Square.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 03:12 PM (AZGON)

192 Sadly, I had to remind myself it was Egypt that was the context here...

I thought Ace was talking about Clownifornia.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 03:12 PM (AZGON)

193 As Stephen Hayward says over at Powerline today: sometimes the choice is limited to between bad and worse, and in this case Hosni Mubarak, like the Shah of Iran in the 70's, is the bad.

Our attitude and actions related to Egypt are not about lofty political and philosophical goals like liberty and freedom and democracy, it is all about our own national self-interest. Allowing Mubarak to fall enables the Muslim Brotherhood to emerge, which is simply not good for us and so not the course we should allow to happen.

Posted by: steve at February 01, 2011 03:12 PM (UPLmD)

194 A little hard to have economic freedom without little things like law, property rights, and confidence that big brother won't come and kill you.
Posted by: Oldcat at February 01, 2011 02:54 PM (z1N6a)
This is why Right-wing dictatorships are so much better at transitioning to democracy that either Left-wing ones or outright dynastic regimes. They tend only to kill or imprison those who bad-mouth the leader or try to overthrow the regime, while letting individuals and companies make money. Over time, the burgeoning middle class in a Right-wing dictatorship gets kind of tired of the trappings of oppression and demands reform -- but since it's middle-class reform, not Communist revolution, it's generally easier for the dictator to allow the transition to proceed. South Korea, Taiwan, Chile are all examples.

Posted by: stuiec at February 01, 2011 03:13 PM (Di3Im)

195 A people blocked from democracy become infantilized. They are not trusted to manage their own affairs. Like minors. And like minors, they are protected from the consequences of their own preferred actions, since they're prevented from ever taking those actions. And so insulated, they can fantasize about how wonderful their blocked plans would be if only they could carry them through.
Those damn Republicans - they blocked all our wonderful plans - at every corner! They wouldn't meet with us or converse with us or offer any alternatives to our wonderful plans.
Even though we had the presidence and both houses of congress - all 3 branches of government as Chuck Shumer would say, it was those damned Republicans ....

Posted by: The Prez at February 01, 2011 03:14 PM (udlO2)

196 155 You know what this crowd in Tahrir Square needs? Cheerleaders. Not enough cheerleaders.

Here are your Muslim Cheerleaders. Nudity alert though. I see forearms and ankle.
http://tinyurl.com/65u5dnm

Posted by: Canadian Infidel at February 01, 2011 03:15 PM (GKQDR)

197 A people blocked from democracy become infantilized. They are not
trusted to manage their own affairs. Like minors. And like minors,
they are protected from the consequences of their own preferred actions,
since they're prevented from ever taking those actions. And so
insulated, they can fantasize about how wonderful their blocked plans
would be if only they could carry them through.

And they tend then to adopt the bad habits of minors, self-pity,
scapegoating, fantasy, magical thinking, "rebellion" against
reasonableness and wisdom, and so on. 90% of the Muslim world is
infantilized in this way.
This is so true and brilliant it needs to be repeated.
It holds generally. The Left loves to make themselves the victims of a democracy run by shadowy figures. So they self-infantilize.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 01, 2011 03:15 PM (T0NGe)

198 The Muslim Brotherhood is not going to take over Egypt. We have an opportunity to help shape history in a positive direction. Unfortunately the current occupant of the WH will likely screw it up and make you guys right for the wrong reasons.

Posted by: Mr. Sar Kastik at February 01, 2011 03:16 PM (8fiyZ)

199 Our attitude and actions related to Egypt are not about lofty political and philosophical goals like liberty and freedom and democracy, it is all about our own national self-interest. Allowing Mubarak to fall enables the Muslim Brotherhood to emerge, which is simply not good for us and so not the course we should allow to happen.
And so that is the exact course I have charted. Full speed ahead!

Posted by: The Prez at February 01, 2011 03:16 PM (udlO2)

200 had the balls to tell them what was going to happen if they didn't - nasty, extra-legal things. I think someone did more then "tell" them

Posted by: Jean at February 01, 2011 03:17 PM (Ja6pC)

201 Sorry, but were you talking about Egypt and the other Middle Eastern populations or where you talking about our liberals?

Posted by: John at February 01, 2011 03:18 PM (+czsU)

202 That reminds me of the Muslim incoherence on bin Ladin just after 9/11. You had parades in his honor, with people carrying placards stating two things:
1. bin Ladin had nothing to do with 9/11; it was the Jews and the CIA.
2. bin Ladin is the hero of 9/11.
Makes no sense. Why are the Jews and the CIA not the heroes, then?
This is not incoherence. Statement #1 is an outright lie, made knowingly, and Statement #2 is what they truly believe. They only shouted Statement #1 because they thought it might protect their hero and confuse their enemies. (They just weren't good at keeping Statement #2 their little secret amongst themselves.)

Posted by: stuiec at February 01, 2011 03:19 PM (Di3Im)

203 had the balls to tell them what was going to happen if they didn't - nasty, extra-legal things. I think someone did more then "tell" them
If I'm not mistaken lots of extra-legal things had been happening there for a very long time.

Posted by: Solid B+ at February 01, 2011 03:19 PM (udlO2)

204 1. bin Ladin had nothing to do with 9/11; it was the Jews and the CIA.

2. bin Ladin is the hero of 9/11.

Makes no sense. Why are the Jews and the CIA not the heroes, then?

Doublethink, comrades. I invented it.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 03:20 PM (AZGON)

205 Doublethink, comrades. I invented it.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 03:20 PM (AZGON)
Geo., You invented the liberal/progressive version. Mo-hammed invented the original version 1400 years ago.

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 01, 2011 03:23 PM (alr7n)

206 A little hard to have economic freedom without little things like law,
property rights, and confidence that big brother won't come and kill
you.
-------

Yes, exactly my point. The US should have been working with Egypt -- Saudis, Jordan etc etc. -- on economic liberation which requires the institutions you mentioned to be established and honored. A dictator's place is going to be more secure if his people are prospering. The US instead encourages reforms that give people the ability to vote between a giant douche and turd sandwich. Think of it this way: people are interested in using "the vote" to better their own personal lot in life think: Carter vs. Reagan, Clinton vs Dole (why upset the applecart in 1996?). Pursuing economic liberalization in country's with no political freedom is a much more viable approach to achieving stability than pursuing political liberalization in a country without the institutions for economic freedom. Just a thought.

Posted by: scofflaw at February 01, 2011 03:24 PM (6nPvx)

207 So the takeaway message from Obama is "Egypt does what I tell them to do ...", that will go over well.

Posted by: Jean at February 01, 2011 03:25 PM (Ja6pC)

208 1. Did Obama REALLY send that message via his extra-governmental envoy? Or have we bribed him with billioins of dollars of taxpayer money and a home in Palm Springs?

2. Also, even if Obama did make this request (probably through the envoy because Mubarak wouldn't talk to him) then WHY IN THE HELL DO THE ADMINISTRATION PEOPLE PUT THIS OUT AND MAKE MUBARAK LOOK WEAK, AND HANG WHOEVER FOLLOWS HIM AS BEING THE ADMINISTRATION CHOICE?

3. French Press reports a bunch of Egyptian professors and such do not want Elbaradei because he has been living abroad and doesn't understand the Egyptian people. (Also, I will interject that his wife is Iranian, which is another bad siign.)
They want two guys in charge, the guy who is the head of the Arab League and the guy who is the head of the Egyptian Army.

I am thinking that the more Obama talks about Elbaradei, the less the Egyptians want him. Which is a good sign, indicating they are smarter than I thought.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 01, 2011 03:27 PM (Fo83G)

209 You know what they need? Feudalism.

Feudal Europe transitioned pretty well to democracy. The villagers could elect their own mayors. Then they realized they could operate without a feudal lord. The lords realized that they wanted a little of the king's power.

You just give them a taste of it, with limited scope. Eventually, they grow.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 01, 2011 03:32 PM (T0NGe)

210 Feudal Europe transitioned pretty well to democracy.

Um, a word, m'sieur...

Posted by: Louis XVI at February 01, 2011 03:46 PM (GBXon)

211 Egypt really tied the Middle East together, did it not?

Posted by: Walter Sobchak at February 01, 2011 03:50 PM (z5j8j)

212 Has Mubarak said anything yet? Is the media editing a taped message to remove insults to Obama?

This hopefully will be on soon. The ice had started here in Indianapolis again and I fear power will be gone soon.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 01, 2011 03:51 PM (Fo83G)

213 Mubarak is still playing coy. Nothing on Al-Jism yet.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 03:52 PM (AZGON)

214 Rino/Obama's Commerce bitch chimes in:

“This is more an Egypt issue than anything to do with America,” said former Sen. Judd Gregg (R-N.H.), a longtime expert on the region. “We tend to be so America-centric, but Egypt is a very sophisticated country. ... This isn’t anti-American; it’s an Egyptian event. We need to understand that.”


Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 01, 2011 03:58 PM (NmKUg)

215 Mubarak on now.

http://tinyurl.com/6ydo6g

Posted by: Tami at February 01, 2011 03:59 PM (VuLos)

216 Mubarak on

Yes, came without warning after waiting

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:00 PM (AZGON)

217 so far it's just platitudes and cautionary advice

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:00 PM (AZGON)

218 hah, says he never sought power or influence

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:02 PM (AZGON)

219 He's rewriting his own history, but he knows he's done.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 01, 2011 04:02 PM (hUf/c)

220 hah, says he never sought power or influence

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:02 PM (AZGON)
"Does not intend to run for the coming presidency."

Posted by: Tami at February 01, 2011 04:03 PM (VuLos)

221 claims he never intended to run again for President
now says he'll step aside but not when yet

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:04 PM (AZGON)

222 Not stepping down until his term is up

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:04 PM (AZGON)

223 Despite pumping more than $60 billion into Egypt over the past 30 years, Uncle Sam’s standing has plummeted along with Mubarak’s — with fewer than one in five Egyptians viewing the U.S. favorably.

Politico



So, that would be $2 billion per year, compounded for 30 years at say 5%. Calculator says that would be the equivalent of $140 billion current dollars down the rat hole.

Nicely done, Feds.


Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 01, 2011 04:04 PM (NmKUg)

224 Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 01, 2011 03:58 PM (NmKUg)

Whenever I read stuff like this I think he thinks the American people are just plain stupid.

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 04:04 PM (p302b)

225 He's playing for time

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:05 PM (AZGON)

226 promises to really really work for the people now, double finger cross

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:06 PM (AZGON)

227 Now we'll see how the masses (and the MB/Baradei contingtent of would-be leaders) take to his attempt to buy 8 more months in office. That's a lot of time to loot a country from the inside.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 01, 2011 04:06 PM (hUf/c)

228 How about we keep Mubarack as the US President and give Egypt the purple lipped commie Obama ??? And throw in a six pack of Old Milwaukee lites ???

Posted by: Fogger MacGee at February 01, 2011 04:07 PM (SZy+Y)

229 prays to god to follow the right path, pinky swear

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:07 PM (AZGON)

230 He knows he won't win, just won't concede losing right now.

Posted by: steve at February 01, 2011 04:07 PM (UPLmD)

231 Posted by: Lincolntf at February 01, 2011 04:06 PM (hUf/c)
do you really think there is anything left after all those private jets took off?

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 04:08 PM (p302b)

232 says he will die on the soil of Egypt. WTF?

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:08 PM (AZGON)

233 Hosni needs a Koran, written with his own blood.

Posted by: toby928 at February 01, 2011 04:09 PM (GTbGH)

234 Looks like the crowds are unimpressed.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:09 PM (AZGON)

235 wonder how well this will sit with the million Egyptians? Oddly enough Christianne I am poor is stepping all over herself to make sure that the world knows that BO and company asked him to step down.

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 04:10 PM (p302b)

236 Just ruminating here: By forming an alliance with evil and barbaric Muslim funnymentalists, evil and psuedo intellectualCommunists are riding on the back of a tiger which will, in the end, most surelyoutwit them, turn on them and savagely devour them, because barbarism will determine survival of the fittest. We're witnessing the direction of man's evolution. The wheat is being separated from the chaff, and for all of ourintellect and sophistication,we are the chaff that will fall beside the wayside, and this will become the planet of the apes, for no other reasons than because we've become so lazy and spoiled that we're lost our survival instincts. (Of course, I could change my opinion on those issues by tomorrow or even by tonight.)

Posted by: Brian at February 01, 2011 04:10 PM (sYrWB)

237 someone on Al-Jism-ra says the crowd was heckling him as the speech was broadcast

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:10 PM (AZGON)

238 Looks like the crowds are unimpressed.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:09 PM (AZGON)
Hard to know what they're cheering about. Could be "no, leave now ass." or "Yay, he'll be gone in sept."....Al Jaz isn't saying.

Posted by: Tami at February 01, 2011 04:11 PM (VuLos)

239 At any rate, he isn't going anywhere tonight or anytime soon

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:11 PM (AZGON)

240 Yeah, Tami, but I'm listening to the remarks of someone reporting from the crowd, and she said they were heckling him

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:11 PM (AZGON)

241 Always wonder if the translators are in teh bag.
Would love to have a real translation
sort of like the difference between teh Arabic koran and the English version

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 01, 2011 04:13 PM (alr7n)

242 That remark that he "will die on the soil of Egypt" is portentous

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:13 PM (AZGON)

243 I dunno, the audio doesn't sound like a happy crowd in any language

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:13 PM (AZGON)

244 OT, but I think vitally important. Snooki is at the Auto Show in DC RIGHT NOW!

Posted by: Truck Monkey at February 01, 2011 04:13 PM (yQWNf)

245 "I think they've decided to double down on this and hope they can convince the American people that they will really like it"
---mitch mcconnell on hannity discussing what else, the healthcare bill

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 04:13 PM (p302b)

246 no one is dispersing from what Al Jism is showing us, they are chanting

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:14 PM (AZGON)

247 Peacefully return to your homes and I promise I will kill you last.

Posted by: if hosni mubarak were an Alawite at February 01, 2011 04:14 PM (GTbGH)

248 Yeah, Tami, but I'm listening to the remarks of someone reporting from the crowd, and she said they were heckling him

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:11 PM (AZGON)
I'm sure they were....but that still doesn't indicate their reaction to him leaving in Sept.Oh...now Al Jazeera is saying they're chanting "LEAVE! LEAVE!"

Posted by: Tami at February 01, 2011 04:14 PM (VuLos)

249 in 246 "they" being the whole democratic party

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 04:15 PM (p302b)

250 now al jism reports the crowd is chanting "Leave! Leave!"

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:15 PM (AZGON)

251 Actually, given the shame culture of the Mideast, the reporter Jacky Rowland makes a good point on Al Jism Ra... that he is being given wide and deep disrespect, and that is a Big Fucking Deal over there

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:17 PM (AZGON)

252 Submit now, or I assure you that you will never see the Underverse.

Posted by: if hosni mubarak were a necromonger at February 01, 2011 04:18 PM (GTbGH)

253
Actually, given the shame culture of the Mideast, the reporter Jacky
Rowland makes a good point on Al Jism Ra... that he is being given wide
and deep disrespect, and that is a Big Fucking Deal over there

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:17 PM (AZGON)
Yep....I think she said they won't allow him any dignity and in that culture, a man's dignity is worth more than anything. (Well, I guess in all cultures but....)

Posted by: Tami at February 01, 2011 04:19 PM (VuLos)

254 Submit now, or I assure you that you will never see the Underverse.

Underverse? Is that like Spanks?

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:19 PM (AZGON)

255 Interesting, Hannity just asked McConnell about this and he declined to really comment saying a lot of clever question answering avoidance technique.

Was linked by drudge.

In mcconell's answer he didn't deny it occurred. "the administration talks to a lot of people"

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 04:20 PM (p302b)

256 I'm keeping my eyes on the crowd (for fires, mainly). The reporters inCairo all seem just as baffled as anyone else as to whether or notMubarak's speech was moreappeasing or inciting.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 01, 2011 04:20 PM (hUf/c)

257 Well, the military can look upon Mubarak's remarks with some impugnity. Can't tell if the military really cares much for Mubarak, given their behavior.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:23 PM (AZGON)

258 "go away, go away, revolution until death" chanted

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:23 PM (AZGON)

259 Nauseating, Egyptian State TV broadcasting adoring footage of Mubarak in pancake and his wife.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:34 PM (AZGON)

260 By which I mean, Mubarak wearing heavy makeup, and then his wife.

Not Mubarak "in" his wife.

Although that would be amusing.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:35 PM (AZGON)

261 Very difficult to tell population's true will from a crowd. A well-known example is "Give us Barabbas!" Louder shouters are not necessarily the majority. (Not comparing Mubarak to jesus, just that opinions of crowds are not necessarily the majority.)

If Mubarak was smart, he would point out (over and over) how Obama wanted him to step down, and that to do so would be giving in to the Great Satan.


Posted by: Miss Marple at February 01, 2011 04:37 PM (Fo83G)

262 Interesting... reporter on Al Jism asking protester about Mubarak's remark that he will "die on Egyptian soil." Protester chuckles and mentions that perhaps the crowd is hoping for an early death.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:38 PM (AZGON)

263 Crowd still howling "Get out, get out."

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:39 PM (AZGON)

264 I would strongly disagree with Ace's post. People "blocked" from "democracy" aren't infantilized. That is, not *necessarily*. Otherwise, we'd have a hard time explaining the infants of Europe. Their rioting is from infatilization, but that comes from their own doing. They bought into the humanist myths of worldly, secular utopia and voted accordingly. When reality came crashing in on them, they rioted because they didn't get their candy cost-free. This is very true in Greece, where a wholesale rejection of God and embrace of Marx has led to a multi-generational infantilization to the point where the populace continually votes for Marxist-type governments and government programs, then they do all they can to avoid personally paying for any of it. (My in-laws, from Greece, talk about how everyone has a second home and a pool, etc., and does everything they can to hide any and all assets to avoid paying taxes. Local government corruption only helps). It becomes cultural, it becomes ingrained, and the populace devolves ever-downward into permanent childhood.

The same could be said for France, the UK, Ireland, etc. The Middle East, on the other hand, needs to be viewed in light of the history and teachings of Islam. Mubarek is a dictator, no doubt, and a ruthless one at that. But Egypt's history, even under his rule, illustrates the fact that Islamic culture has a very, very tight grip on its people (the mass slaughter of Coptic pigs during the swine flu outbreak is a good example of that, as well as the bombing of the Coptic church). This is comparable to the myth of a secular Turkey - it was never, even at its founding, secular, and dhimmi laws still control cultural life there.

Iran, on the other hand, had an actual infusion of Western culture (good or bad), and so there is still the ghost of a memory of life before the Ayatollahs. Thus, we see the protests there in a different life.

Here's another example: I had a professor in college who spent a lot of time in Egypt. In the mid 90's, he was telling us how all of the Egyptian feminists from the 60's and 70's were upset because all they'd fought for was being rejected by their daughters. What did they fight for? The right not to undergo a clitorectomy and to not be forced into the veil. Their daughters *wanted* to undergo this process and to wear the veil because of the cultural respect that went along with it. This is another illustration of the deep cultural grip Islam has on the people of Egypt (whether or not the clitorectomy is directly required by the Koran/Hadith, it is a common cultural phenomenon that has become inextricably tied up with it).

The riots in Egypt, then, aren't directionless children acting out but cultural Muslims who see Mubarek as a tool of the US and Israel. Like all of Islamic political history, what we are seeing is the cyclical resurgence of actual Islam seeking to displace what it sees as watered-down or pseudo-Islam.

the sinner,

Patrick

Posted by: Patrick at February 01, 2011 04:49 PM (R6iwA)

265 Ugh... some tool for the Regime (Lord Obama) on Al Jism... Congressman David Wu, Demotard of Oregon's 1st. Wow. What a fetid douchebag. Full of hot air and platitudes. If that's what the Mideast sees of us, no wonder they hate us. Fucking weasel words from start to end.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:52 PM (AZGON)

266 "Muslim Brotherhood: 'No one is satisfied' by Mubarak's announcement; protests will continue - WSJ http://on.wsj.com/fcCu1n"

from twitter breaking news

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 04:53 PM (p302b)

267 No one on Al Jism is sounding very impressed with Mubarak's speech or proposal to stay on until Sept.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:54 PM (AZGON)

268 It sort of feels like the brothers are controlling the situation, doesn't it?

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 04:56 PM (p302b)

269 You know, the greatest killer of Muslims is other Muslims.

So, on the positive side, there's always a Sunni/Shiite conflict to hope for. I mean, they've been doing that for freaking years.

Does Egypt have nukes? Because they indeed could nuke Iran. Or Lebanon. Or any other of the Shiite countries.

Of course, they might decide to nuke Israel first.

Posted by: shibumi at February 01, 2011 04:57 PM (OKZrE)

270 I'm not so sure the situation is controlled at all. Factions and loyalties are legion and complex over there. It's not just Mubarak or Muzzie Brotherhood. In a way it's worse; less predictable.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 04:59 PM (AZGON)

271 I am poor has found her hero. And Gibsey let us to believe this was a "walk in the park" so really George how can you say that.

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 05:07 PM (p302b)

272 If all Islam becomes a cliphate then what happens to anyone who isn't muslim? Will they be allowed to leave these countries?

Posted by: curious at February 01, 2011 05:08 PM (p302b)

273 reports the Cairo crowd was chanting, after the speech, "Tomorrow, tomorrow" as in when Mubarak should leave

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 05:10 PM (AZGON)

274 crowds forming human chain in Alexandria

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 05:20 PM (AZGON)

275 gunfire in Alexandria

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 05:22 PM (AZGON)

276 looks like both pro and anti Mubarak factions in Alexandria, gunfire is to scare not to kill

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 05:28 PM (AZGON)

277 Yeah I wouldn't bet on that, read this, instead:http://tinyurl.com/4owxel9

Posted by: justin cord at February 01, 2011 05:30 PM (2C3OH)

278 Whoa...pro-Mubarak demonstrators? That's...uh...brave.

Posted by: Tami at February 01, 2011 05:34 PM (VuLos)

279 Yeah I wouldn't bet on that, read this, instead:http://tinyurl.com/4owxel9
Posted by: justin cord

Wow... thanks. That comports with Claire Berlinksi's assessment that things are not so cut and dried in Egypt.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 05:37 PM (AZGON)

280 Key stuff from article quoted by Justin Cord in American Thinker:

Today the Egyptians are scared. They have been given a glimpse of hell and they don't like what they see. Contrary to Al Jazeera's propaganda, the Egyptian masses are not demonstrating anymore. They are protecting their homes and families. The demonstration last night had 5,000 political activists participating and not 150,000 as Al Jazeera insists. At this moment, no one outside of those political activists cares less now if the President will resign or not. They have more important concerns now; security and food.

So where are we today? Well the answer is still not clear, yet a couple of conclusions are evident.

1. The Gamal inheritance scenario is finished.

2. Mubarak will not run for another Presidential term. His term ends in October and either he will serve the rest of his term or will resign once things cool down for health reasons, which are real. He is dying.

3. The army is in control now. We are heading back to the "golden age" of army rule. The "kids" are no longer in charge. The "men' are.

4. Until the economy fails again, the neo-liberal economic policies are over. Forget about an open economy for some time.

Posted by: George Orwell at February 01, 2011 05:42 PM (AZGON)

281 #270 shibumi

The problem is you have to keep in mind the old Arabic proverb that goes *something* like this: me against my brother, my brother and I against the tribe, the tribe against the other tribe, and all believers against non-believers. The Sunni and Shi'ite will get along just fine as long as they have the US and Israel to hate.

the sinner,

Patrick

Posted by: Patrick at February 01, 2011 05:52 PM (R6iwA)

282 Posted by: Patrick at February 01, 2011 05:52 PM (R6iwA)
The other version is "My brother and I against my cousin, my cousin and I against the world."

It is a tribal culture incomprehensible to the Western mind since we have been taught to denigrate all family ties for some time now.

Posted by: Hrothgar at February 01, 2011 06:05 PM (alr7n)

283 Well actually, it's comprehensible to me.

I am from a large, close-knit family. And we have brought our kids up the same way.

We are Scots. The clan heritage still exists.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 01, 2011 06:17 PM (Fo83G)

284 @165: "Anyway, while I have no proof, I believe the IRA gave in because somebody finally had the balls to tell them what was going to happen if they didn't - nasty, extra-legal things."
Oddly enough, the Provos and the assorted Loyalist paras all seem to think that the Provos won. They stopped fighting because they were allowed to become part of the government - there was more to lose by continuing the violence, and more to gain by the ballot box (the whole demographics-is-destiny argument is a big point in their favor, too). The British Government wasn't exactly crowing, either.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at February 01, 2011 08:53 PM (xy9wk)

285 It takes blowhard and bullshit artist, Christopher Hitchens, two or three rambling andlong-winded paragraphs to say what any reasonably intelligent and articulate person could say it two or three concise sentences more effectively. That applies to his bloviating homo buddy, Andrew Sullivan, too.

Posted by: Brian at February 02, 2011 03:37 AM (sYrWB)

286 altın ilek - fx15 - leke kremi - yudali - maurers - ozon yağı

Posted by: hapsu at February 07, 2011 02:40 PM (va41F)

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Posted by: Tiffany Bracelet at February 09, 2011 04:25 AM (FLd5c)






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