Lindsey Graham: Keep GITMO Open And Hold Military Commission Trials There; I'm Voting Against The DREAM Act

Wow. At Hot Air, Lindsey Graham is gettin' right with Jesus.

If Graham became more of a conservative, I could get behind him and forgive him. I like his tone and his thoughtfulness... except when he's calling us "bigots" and such.

But he has to get a lot more conservative, or else he's gotta go. Let him be a pundit or elder-statesman type if he wants to be a maverick.

His new tone on immigration is welcome. He wants the border sealed and our Visa system fixed before any amnesty sort of deal goes through.

Oh, and he wants to push a law forbidding funding of any civilian trial of KSM or any other 9/11 conspirator, and change Miranda law so that terrorist suspects aren't given a lawyer or read their rights for a "period of time." Like three or four days, I figure. Maybe a week.

That last bit is so obvious it hurts. Bear in mind, the penalty for not reading someone his Miranda rights isn't that that person goes free, but that incriminating statements solicited in absence of the Miranda statement can't be used as trial. Even without a law like this, it makes sense as far as a trade-off to just write off any chance of getting a court-admissible admission and interrogating the hell out of him anyway. Not for use in court, but for use in intelligence/warfighting.

But it makes sense to formalize it as a law, too, and change the law some too. For example, there's a doctrine called Fruit of the Poisonous Tree. If you elicit information from a non-Mirandized suspect which then leads to the discovery of, say, physical evidence against him (the murder weapon, say), then the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree doctrine says that not only is the admission barred from introduction in court, but so is the murder weapon. (The fruit of the poisonous tree, get it?) This is subject to some caveats (prosecutors can prove "inevitable discovery," that they would have found the weapon anyway, even absent the confession, for example), but that's the main line of the law.

Now, that's Court doctrine, but a statute about terrorist suspects specifically can be crafted that says non-Mirandized interrogations will not produce confessions allowable in court but fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine will not apply to evidence collected via information obtained from such interrogations. It's a bit of compromise, could fly. It maintains the core idea against self-incrimination while getting rid of the very arguable and not truly core stuff that's grown up around it.

Stuff like that would be helpful.

Update: AllenG objects that enemy combatants caught on foreign soil should never be Mirandized.

But wait! I agree with that! I specifically have in mind the Christmas Bomber, caught on U.S. soil, who was Mirandized and given a lawyer within two hours or less (I forget how long) and of course shut up.

That's the situation I'm talking about where a new law could help free up law enforcement/CIA interrogators to question a terrorist suspect, even one captured on U.S. soil, without violating the pretty-important constitutional guarantee against self-incrimination.*

* Actually by its own terms that applies at trial only but the Court has ruled that, in practice, if someone gives a videotaped confession at a police interrogation room which is subsequently admitted at trial, that's close enough to compelling a confession at trial. Same practical effect. It's just that the event happens outside the courthouse.


Posted by: Ace at 03:50 PM



Comments

1 It means he's thinking about re-election. Fuck him.

Posted by: EC at December 02, 2010 03:51 PM (mAhn3)

2 Hello? Helloooooo.....?????

Posted by: History at December 02, 2010 03:52 PM (YNQ9v)

3 WTF happened to him? Sharp blow to the cranium get his mind right?

Posted by: real joe at December 02, 2010 03:52 PM (IpIBJ)

4 Not far enough. Graham talks tough but always holds out the prospect of some sort of amnesty once condition A and B have been meet. And with the prospect of amnesty, you will just see an uptick in illegal immigration.
Now, if Lindsey starts saying we need to do A and B.....and drops all the talk about amnesty period, then he is on the path to redemption.

Posted by: Mallamutt at December 02, 2010 03:52 PM (OWjjx)

5 If Graham became more of a conservative, I could get behind him...


Promise?

Posted by: Lindsay Graham at December 02, 2010 03:54 PM (Q1lie)

6 Nothing has changed, he's always been for military tribunals and keeping gitmo open.

Posted by: robtr at December 02, 2010 03:54 PM (hVDig)

7 Isn't he up for Re-election in '12? I expect he was a little spooked by the (relatively) close call that John McCain had this year and is trying to preempt an attack from his Right.

He's not conservative, I doubt if he can even keep pretending all that long.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 03:54 PM (8y9MW)

8 Talk's cheap.

Posted by: Andy at December 02, 2010 03:55 PM (5Rurq)

9 Posted by: Mallamutt at December 02, 2010 03:52 PM (OWjjx)

Not even then. I'm all about redemption; that doesn't mean you get (yet) another chance.

Too little, too late; he needs to go back to private life ASAP.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 03:56 PM (8y9MW)

10 Somebody threatened to kill his hair unless he became a real conservative. It's the only explanation that fits the facts.

Posted by: joncelli© at December 02, 2010 03:56 PM (RD7QR)

11 Lindsey Gramnesty can't ever get right enough with Jesus for me. He is sweating that next election, knows he has to build some new tea-party street cred before he can betray us again. If SC denizens are stupid enough to give him another 6 years, he will morph back into the RINO/DIABLO he really is faster than you can find absentee ballots in a warehouse.

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 03:56 PM (8nf3A)

12 He feels the steam from the Tea Kettle. I hope NC doesn't fall for this shit.

Posted by: Sukie Tawdry at December 02, 2010 03:56 PM (jbCcb)

13 Meh. He'd flip again the day after the Republican primary in 2012. No reason even to hold out to November.

Posted by: Ella at December 02, 2010 03:56 PM (DmnMk)

14 He wants the border sealed and our Visa system fixed before any amnesty sort of deal goes through.
Sounds like bullshit to me. The moment they come up with an Amnesty bill that includes border security and Visa system in it, Graham will be all on board. Even though everyone knows those will be the first things cut out and defunded.

Posted by: buzzion at December 02, 2010 03:57 PM (oVQFe)

15 Oppps. SC, I mean.

Posted by: Sukie Tawdry at December 02, 2010 03:58 PM (jbCcb)

16 12
He feels the steam from the Tea Kettle. I hope NC doesn't fall for this shit.

South Carolina.

Posted by: EC at December 02, 2010 03:58 PM (mAhn3)

17 Yes, I remember how vigorously he worked for real border security all those times before.

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 03:58 PM (8nf3A)

18 I was going to leave my comment but I think I'll just "shut up" !!

Posted by: angry bigoted comprehensive immigration reform opponent at December 02, 2010 03:59 PM (Szp6V)

19 For sanity and sensibility in government.... Romney/Graham 2012!

Posted by: Lindsay Graham at December 02, 2010 04:00 PM (Q1lie)

20 >>>Nothing has changed, he's always been for military tribunals and keeping gitmo open.

Are you sure? Ed Morrissey wrote that he tried to close it and joined with Obama earlier in the administration to make that happen.

I forget myself. hey, I'll google it. What an idea.

Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:00 PM (nj1bB)

21 He wants the border sealed and our Visa system fixed before any amnesty sort of deal goes through.

Don't be fooled by this. He switched on amnesty because McCain did. And of course he likes military commissions, that was his project when it was passed.

And NO MORE AMNESTY.

Posted by: Vic at December 02, 2010 04:01 PM (e4sSD)

22 I've always had Hope for Senator Graham. I had Faith he'd see the light

He's not reliable but he ain't the enemy. Sort of an Olympia Snowe with teeny tiny balls.

But balls nonetheless........

Posted by: SantaRosaStan. doing Shecky Green at December 02, 2010 04:01 PM (UqKQV)

23 I'll google it.

What's that?

Posted by: Charles Gibson at December 02, 2010 04:01 PM (wOGfT)

24 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 03:56 PM (8y9MW)
Please note I said on the path to redemption. He has a long way to go. But I doubt he ever gets on the path. He will piddle around the edges, try to say enough to keep DeMint from finding someone to primary him and then get 6 more years where his true colors can show.
While I tend to be a more forgiving poster around here for moderate Republicans who go soft, Graham gets no pass from me. He is from South Carolina. We often see, as an excuse/justification/reason that maybe we should be supportive of a more moderate Republican, the argumentthat "this isnot a state that will elect Jim DeMint." Well, needless to say, Lindsey doesn't get that excuse.
But, I hope that South Carolina finds a credible alternative to Lindsey Graham and not just some one who can talk conservative in a small group of 20 or 30 people and then gets out on the big stage and shots themselves in the foot over and over and over again.

Posted by: Mallamutt at December 02, 2010 04:02 PM (OWjjx)

25 Oh wow, this Rino heavy 111th Senate may just hold the line after all.

The 111th has to end. I don't see why any non-hyper partisan liberal would do anything to keep it going.

We should have all 42 on board plus penitent decent libs like liebs and nelson on board, right?

Posted by: joeindc44 at December 02, 2010 04:02 PM (QxSug)

26 >>>ounds like bullshit to me. The moment they come up with an Amnesty bill that includes border security and Visa system in it, Graham will be all on board.

You may be right but based on his *statement*, that's not what he favors; he is saying pass the McCain/Kyl border security bill first, not as *part* of comprhensive bullshit.

Now, I don't know if McCain/Kyl is any great shakes. I know they're not talking about a physical wall or we'd have heard that.

Still, pushing enforcement first is progress.

Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:02 PM (nj1bB)

27 Are you sure? Ed Morrissey wrote that he tried to close it and joined with Obama earlier in the administration to make that happen. Graham has always been in favor of GITMO....but he was the one Republican negotiating with the Administration over closing GITMO.

Posted by: Mallamutt at December 02, 2010 04:03 PM (OWjjx)

28 Yeah, He's Olympia Snow from SOUTH CAROLINA. I get the "electability" arguments in the North East (disagree with them, but I get them). Are you telling me that no one more conservative Lindsey McGramnesty is electable in South Carolina?

This guy has got to go.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 04:03 PM (8y9MW)

29 And yes he did side with OBama in closing GITMO initially.

http://tinyurl.com/3aztmcl

Posted by: Vic at December 02, 2010 04:03 PM (e4sSD)

30 Nothing has changed, he's always been for military tribunals and keeping gitmo open.

If true then yes, this ain't no birthday cake. He's just posturing for re-election.

Posted by: George Orwell at December 02, 2010 04:03 PM (AZGON)

31 For sanity sogginess and sensibility squishiness in government.... Romney/Graham 2012!

Fixed it for you.

Posted by: joncelli© at December 02, 2010 04:03 PM (RD7QR)

32 Lindsay may be a RINO but that doesn't mean he lacks the instinct for political self-preservation.

Posted by: Reiver at December 02, 2010 04:05 PM (oLXaz)

33 100 bucks says if this ahole loses the primary he will go Murcuntski and run on an indie ticket.

Posted by: Mr Pink at December 02, 2010 04:05 PM (clAs+)

34 And yes he did side with OBama in closing GITMO initially.

Well, it looks like he was willing to talk about it. But now he's all rock-solid and steely?

It's Lindsay Fucking Graham. He'll throw conservatives under the bus at the first chance once he thinks he can get away with it.

Posted by: George Orwell at December 02, 2010 04:06 PM (AZGON)

35 Geez Ace will you quit it with the purity stuff and think pragmatically?

Posted by: blaster at December 02, 2010 04:06 PM (MrMxG)

36 For sanity and sensibility in government.... Romney/Graham 2012!
Well, Mitt Romney is the true conservative. Rush, Laura, Sean and Levin all said so in 2008..........

Posted by: Mallamutt at December 02, 2010 04:06 PM (OWjjx)

37 I think I have a more expansive idea of progress than some. To me, putting off Comprehensive Bullshit for two or three years is a partial win. if the amnesty forces are retreating now -- even if they'll be back later -- that's a win for *now.*

I think many want these issues settled *NOW.* Of course I want that too, but I don't think in many cases we can get the full, declared, formalized, unchangeable victory we want *now,* and so buying time is a not-horrible Plan B.

We need to get a fence up, and we're not anywhere near that yet. Because a fence is "symbolic" or some shit. Symbolic of our desire to keep illegal immigrants out. Well, yeah, it's symbolic of that because it precisely IS that.

Jackasses! "Symbolic."

But first you will symbolically blow me.

Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:06 PM (nj1bB)

38 Yeh Lindsey, whatever. You can go full McCain from now til 2012 and you're still fired. From now until the end of time, it's RINO season.

Posted by: cali grump at December 02, 2010 04:06 PM (hL0k8)

39 He will piddle around the edges, try to say enough to keep DeMint from
finding someone to primary him and then get 6 more years where his true
colors can show.

The RINO runs the State Republican Party here. He got "primaried" in 2008 but won via running out of ballots at 10:00 am in Myrtle Beach.

Posted by: Vic at December 02, 2010 04:06 PM (e4sSD)

40 Are you telling me that no one more conservative Lindsey McGramnesty is electable in South Carolina?

*ahem*

Posted by: Jim DeMint at December 02, 2010 04:06 PM (5Rurq)

41 So, does this mean he's seeing the writing on the wall in 2012?

Posted by: Sponge © at December 02, 2010 04:07 PM (UK9cE)

42 >Isn't he up for Re-election in '12?

2014

Posted by: Jerry at December 02, 2010 04:07 PM (QF8uk)

43 I’m voting definitely against the DREAM Act.

Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Tea Party!

Posted by: but I repost myself at December 02, 2010 04:07 PM (S5YRY)

44 I would honestly bet every penny I own that this fuckwad will. Run third party if defeated in the primary, but that doesn't mean I don't want this fucker getting primaried.

Posted by: Mr Pink at December 02, 2010 04:08 PM (clAs+)

45 Jackasses! "Symbolic."

But first you will symbolically blow me.

Symbolically? What fun is that?

Posted by: George Orwell at December 02, 2010 04:08 PM (AZGON)

46 Talk's cheap.

But cheating isn't.......

Posted by: Tiger's Wood at December 02, 2010 04:09 PM (UK9cE)

47 Hey Y'all STFD and STFU!!!http://tinyurl.com/66kae6

Posted by: Linny at December 02, 2010 04:09 PM (Szp6V)

48 No, ace, no Miranda for Terrorists (actually, Enemy Combatants) at all. Period. Full Stop. Constitutional Protections do not extend to enemy combatants apprehended on foreign soil. What's so hard to understand about that?

If he wanted a law to "help our troops," how about one that says "Any Armed Combatant who has taken up arms against the united states but does not meet the definition of "Enemy Soldier" (or whatever the term is) in the Geneva Conventions shall not have any of the Constitutional Rights awarded to United States Citizens. This includes but is not limited to the Right to Counsel, Right to Speedy Trial, and Right to Avoid Self Incrimination."

How about that one?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 04:09 PM (8y9MW)

49 @16: "12 He feels the steam from the Tea Kettle. I hope NC doesn't fall for this shit.South Carolina."
No, idiot. It's East Carolina and Western Carolina. They've got universities, I'll have you know.

Posted by: Joe Biden at December 02, 2010 04:09 PM (xy9wk)

50 Lindsay may be a RINO but that doesn't mean he lacks the instinct for political self-preservation.
If that's true, let's hope that instinct takes hold in a few dem senators too.

Posted by: Soona at December 02, 2010 04:10 PM (GdqLE)

51 I'll give Graham credit for voting no on the food fascism bill.

Posted by: George Orwell at December 02, 2010 04:10 PM (AZGON)

52 >>>Yeah, He's Olympia Snow from SOUTH CAROLINA. I get the "electability" arguments in the North East (disagree with them, but I get them). Are you telling me that no one more conservative Lindsey McGramnesty is electable in South Carolina?


No I'm sure there is. What I was saying is that if Lindsey Graham gets on board with the New Normal and gets MORE CONSERVATIVE (like, conservative enough you wouldn't mind him being the SC senator), then I'd say, forgive him, trust that he's learned his lesson.

This depends on him voting the right way for four years, of course.

I've always had a soft spot for him since he was an impeachment manager, even though, yeah, he gave Democrats the out to vote against impeachment. (As if they needed it, though-- I think that was more a PR move for public consumption.)

I'm just saying -- I'd LIKE him on the team, if he's willing to actually JOIN the team.

To me, look, we've had a sea change here, right? the old rules stopped applying; new rules began applying.

To me, it makes sense to give people a chance to either adapt and accept the new rules, and abide by them, or to fail to do so.

Failure to do so results in primarying/ejection.

But if someone complies with the new rules, would you forgive that person?

To me, I think you should give people a chance to comply with the new regime. Because, frankly, it IS very new. Very, very new. A lot of people were doing business-as-normal because it WAS the normal way of doing business.

If a guy can adapt and change to the NEW way of doing business, I'd be of the mind to put him on probation and let him prove his fidelity to the new order.

Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:11 PM (nj1bB)

53 Don't forget, he is a lawyer, and thus pretty much immune to any commonsense interpretation of the Constitution or the Geneva Convention for that matter.

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:11 PM (8nf3A)

54 The exclusionary rule has always been one of my pet peeves. The notion that if a cop break the law, then the criminal gets to go free. We end up with a situation of having TWO lawbreakers and NEITHER gets punished.
That's just about the dumbest solution that could have been thought up.

My solution? Prosecute BOTH violators. The idea that you would disregard the truth, regardless of how it was obtained, is asinine.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 02, 2010 04:11 PM (/G5LI)

55 Shecky don' answer no rhetorical questions, and her name is 'Snowe' as in "snowe-shoes"

Graham is necessary to garner the Uptight Closeted Gay Southern White vote

( thank you ladies and gentlemen.........thank you very much............ )

How many balls could Olympia Snowe break if Olympia could break balls ????

Posted by: SantaRosaStan. doing Shecky Green at December 02, 2010 04:12 PM (UqKQV)

56 The tea party: making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right things, a la Milton Friedman.

Posted by: Caiwyn at December 02, 2010 04:12 PM (ttktr)

57 >>>Yeah, He's Olympia Snow from SOUTH CAROLINA. I get the "electability" arguments in the North East (disagree with them, but I get them). Are you telling me that no one more conservative Lindsey McGramnesty is electable in South Carolina?


AllenG,

Actually I had in mind the Christmas Bomber who was caught on OUR soil and was Mirandized. And given a lawyer.

The rule I'm talking about would apply to THAT situation, where teh constituion generally applies.

I agree, on foreign soil, a battlefield capture, that's war, no Mirada. Of course I believe that.

I mean when it's in America.


Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:12 PM (nj1bB)

58 3 WTF happened to him? Sharp blow to the cranium get his mind right?Maybe the smack was hard enough to make his balls finally drop.

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 04:13 PM (Ty06w)

59 Zombies, March!

Posted by: your masters, GWAR at December 02, 2010 04:15 PM (ENYiU)

60 Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:11 PM (nj1bB)

The problem with that is that, when (not if) he "violates" his probation 20 minutes after he get's re-elected, there's nothing that can be done for another 6 years.

No, I'm done with them. You get 1 strike. That's it. One really big screw-up and I want you out. If you want to prove your Conservative mettle elsewhere and then run again, fine, but you don't get to keep having "come to Jesus" moments just in time to try to fend off primary challengers.

And I'm willing to forgive relatively minor screw-ups: especially if you'll admit that they're screw-ups. But Amnesty is a big, big no-no.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 04:15 PM (8y9MW)

61 Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

A leopard (zebra) doesn't change his spots (stripes)

Posted by: AoSHQ Old Saw Generator at December 02, 2010 04:16 PM (5Rurq)

62
If a guy can adapt and change to the NEW way of doing business, I'd be
of the mind to put him on probation and let him prove his fidelity to
the new order.





Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:11 PM (nj1bB)


with malice towards none, I agree with you........again

You had your head up your ass on the TSA nudie-scanner thing, ace person, but otherwise you ain't half bad........ain't half bad at all

Do you like gladiator movies, son?

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at December 02, 2010 04:16 PM (UqKQV)

63 No, ace, no Miranda for Terrorists (actually, Enemy Combatants) at all.


Agreed. Miranda is for CITIZENS of this country. If one of these home grown douchebags gets caught trying to blow up a Christmas tree celebration, that's one thing. These camelfucking smell shitting poo balls caught trying to kill Americans should NOT be afforded such luxuries. Tribunals and the Geneva Convention...that's it. Sorry about your bad luck.

Posted by: Sponge © at December 02, 2010 04:17 PM (UK9cE)

64 My solution? Prosecute BOTH violators. The idea that you would disregard the truth, regardless of how it was obtained, is asinine.

I have another solution. Interrogate the shit out of the muzzie assholes and then shoot them.

Posted by: Soona at December 02, 2010 04:17 PM (GdqLE)

65 >>>You had your head up your ass on the TSA nudie-scanner thing, ac

You know I changed my mind on that?

I do listen to other people, you know. I don't always change my mind. But when I'm outside the conventional-conservative opinion I do listen harder and see if I'm going wrong.

Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:17 PM (nj1bB)

66 Never forget (a past RINO vote) , never forgive (a past RINO vote)!
works for me.

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:18 PM (8nf3A)

67 Conservative America: Whose side are you on, son? Lindsey Graham: Our side, sir. CA: Don't you love your country? LG: Yes, sir. CA: Then how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come on in for the big win? LG: Yes, sir.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at December 02, 2010 04:18 PM (xy9wk)

68 Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:12 PM (nj1bB)

Ah. Well, in that case, yes. Actually I'd say get rid of Miranda all together. Back when the decision was handed down there was some thin shred of rationalization for it. Now, however, if you don't know your 5th Amendment Rights (which we call the "Miranda" Rights), then you've been living under a rock. And burying your head in the sand. While sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALA" at the top of your voice.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 04:18 PM (8y9MW)

69 Thankful for small favors:
At least no one is talking about CapNKillWhat'sLeftoftheEconomy

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 02, 2010 04:18 PM (B+qrE)

70 Lindsey does nothing unless there is something in it for Lindsey.

At the moment I think it's something more than getting his narrow ass re-elected in, what, 2014?

Are there any judicial appointments he wants to get through (he likes giving those plumbs out), or something else?

Posted by: John P. Squibob at December 02, 2010 04:19 PM (/U/Mr)

71 We in the conservative community enthusiastically welcome Sen. Graham's position on these two issues, but we must warn him that he will receive a thorough ideological patdown at our next opportunity.

Posted by: Wodeshed at December 02, 2010 04:19 PM (kQQTN)

72 pssst

(you guys can PRETEND you're willing to give Graham and Snowe a probationary test-period to encourage them to TRY to appease you...

just sayin'...

you don't have to believe it...

just sort of go along with me here and say "if he votes conservative I'll give him and Snowe a chance...)

Keep it low.

Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:19 PM (nj1bB)

73 Actually I had in mind the Christmas Bomber who was caught on OUR soil and was Mirandized. And given a lawyer.



The rule I'm talking about would apply to THAT situation, where teh constituion generally applies.

Sorry, but a non-citizen that attempts to down an airliner or conspires with others to do so, and is captured is immediately considered an enemy combatant of The United States and is awarded 'prisoner of war' status and sent to Gitmo for Tribunal. Sorry, but I don't care where you're from. When you commit an act of war against the US as a non-citizen, you're an enemy combatant. No soup for you!!!!!

Posted by: Sponge © at December 02, 2010 04:22 PM (UK9cE)

74


Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:17 PM (nj1bB)
yes, I know you did. That's why you ain't half bad. That and the various times you're right.

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at December 02, 2010 04:22 PM (UqKQV)

75 RINOS!

Posted by: The Commentor Who Calls All Republicans RINOS at December 02, 2010 04:23 PM (OWjjx)

76 My solution? Prosecute BOTH violators. The idea that
you would disregard the truth, regardless of how it was obtained, is
asinine.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at December 02, 2010 04:11 PM (/G5LI)
Actually the supremes ruled something similar to that a few years ago. If a community or State set up a qualified program that punishes police for acting unconstitutionally then the evidence is not excluded.

Posted by: Vic at December 02, 2010 04:23 PM (e4sSD)

77 Well we do have to get through the next three or so years and he has to accumulate a non-RINO track record , so on second thought, "Welcome home Lindsay!"

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:23 PM (8nf3A)

78 (you guys can PRETEND you're willing to give Graham and Snowe a probationary test-period to encourage them to TRY to appease you... just sayin'... you don't have to believe it... just sort of go along with me here and say "if he votes conservative I'll give him and Snowe a chance...) Keep it low.
Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:19 PM (nj1bB)

Agreed. As long as they keep offering the gift horse, I won't be inspectingthe oral cavities. For now.

Posted by: Soona at December 02, 2010 04:25 PM (GdqLE)

79 caught on U.S. soil,
I have a question about this, and I have since Padilla.
I remember hearing the lawyer forJose Padilla (the only actual citizen who was caught on US soil sent to Gitmo, at least at the time) wastrying to gin uppity for his client by arguing that he was caught on the stree...O'Hare airport.
You see, theauthorities had him pegged for a while now andbrought him into custody when he touched down.
So,is a person entering an airport from overseas subject to US jurisdiction before they gothrough customs and passport control? Is it an international neutral zone?
The panty bomber was apprehended on the tarmac, only because you can't really board a plane until it lands. In the old days, they'd prevent a ship from docking and get the baddie before they disembarked.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 02, 2010 04:25 PM (BvBKY)

80 "Welcome home Lindsay!"
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:23 PM (8nf3A)

Meh. Keep your feet off the furniture, quit whacking your meat, and for God's sake don't drink my beer.

Posted by: joncelli© at December 02, 2010 04:26 PM (RD7QR)

81 Graham is up in 2014.....and in 2014 a certain female Republican governor of South Carolina will be completing her first term.......just saying.............

Posted by: Mallamutt at December 02, 2010 04:26 PM (OWjjx)

82 I do listen to other people, you know. I don't always change my mind. But when I'm outside the conventional-conservative opinion I do listen harder and see if I'm going wrong.
Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:17 PM (nj1bB)
Are you now or have you ever been a RINO?

Posted by: AmishDude at December 02, 2010 04:27 PM (BvBKY)

83 Lindsey Graham is like my own, personal 9/11, sans the whimsy.

Posted by: Purity Republican at December 02, 2010 04:27 PM (LLZiU)

84 My solution? Prosecute BOTH violators. The idea that you would
disregard the truth, regardless of how it was obtained, is asinine.

That's how it used to be. The Warren court changed all that and made the exclusionary rule the remedy for unconstitutional police conduct.

Posted by: pedantic douchebag at December 02, 2010 04:27 PM (IpIBJ)

85 If Graham became more of a conservative, I could get behind him and forgive him.

But, he's totally untrustworthy.

Posted by: iknowtheleft®© at December 02, 2010 04:27 PM (G/MYk)

86 Graham is up in 2014.....and in 2014 a certain female Republican
governor of South Carolina will be completing her first term.......just
saying.............


Good point.

Posted by: Sponge © at December 02, 2010 04:28 PM (UK9cE)

87 77 Well we do have to get through the next three or so years and he has to accumulate a non-RINO track record , so on second thought, "Welcome home Lindsay!"
Like with a drug addict. One day sober doesn't cut it.

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 04:29 PM (Ty06w)

88 Graham is up in 2014.....and in 2014 a certain female Republican
governor of South Carolina will be completing her first term.......just
saying.............


And I tore that ass UP!!!!!

Posted by: Will Folks at December 02, 2010 04:30 PM (UK9cE)

89 Lindsay Henry Bowen Got the Clap from a White Teacher!

Now where's my jazz drums lessons at?

Posted by: Curtis at December 02, 2010 04:30 PM (kQQTN)

90 Old and broken gangsvye for overthrow of RNC!!http://tinyurl.com/2ak69aq

Posted by: Krazy Kat at December 02, 2010 04:30 PM (Szp6V)

91 Are you now or have you ever been a RINO?

Posted by: AmishDude at December 02, 2010 04:27 PM (BvBKY)
==Is it safe?==Graham did make his bone on the Clinton impeachment thing, though. Props for some nice work. Maybe Maverick led him astray, or Graham himself.

Posted by: creep;y Nazi dentist in 'Marathon Man' at December 02, 2010 04:30 PM (UqKQV)

92 Like with a drug addict. One day sober doesn't cut it.
No dude, once you go to rehab and get out, you are total trustworthy like.

Posted by: Lindsey Lohan and Amy Winehouse at December 02, 2010 04:31 PM (OWjjx)

93 I've always had a soft spot for him since he was an impeachment manager,
even though, yeah, he gave Democrats the out to vote against
impeachment. (As if they needed it, though-- I think that was more a PR
move for public consumption.)

Ace, I've really had a hard spot for him when he, as the only Republican, voted for Kagan in committee. Without any Republican vote, she couldn't go to the full senate for consideration to SCOTUS.

Like I posted earlier, Lindsey does what's best for Lindsey. Yeah, others do that too so byte me.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at December 02, 2010 04:31 PM (/U/Mr)

94 Like with a drug addict. One day sober doesn't cut it.

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 04:29 PM (Ty06w)

Just one more RINO vote. Just one more and I'll go cold turkey.

Posted by: LINDSAY!© at December 02, 2010 04:31 PM (RD7QR)

95 made his boneS. Entirely different thing altogether

Posted by: creep;y Nazi dentist in 'Marathon Man' at December 02, 2010 04:32 PM (UqKQV)

96 Ace can’t pass up a chance to rag on Sarah Palin, but he could get behind Lindsey Graham.

Isn’t that just fuckin great.

Posted by: jwest at December 02, 2010 04:32 PM (wBISB)

97 81 Graham is up in 2014.....and in 2014 a certain female Republican governor of South Carolina will be completing her first term.......just saying.............

Then she'll be re-elected.

Me, I'm thinking ofsomebody who could debate Lindsay and his response to Lindsay's answers will be "YOU LIE!"

Hell, TimScott has a term and a half to show some promise. If he's good, LG is toast.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 02, 2010 04:33 PM (BvBKY)

98 Interrogate the shit out of the muzzie assholes and then shoot them.

Put them into GP in your friendly neighborhood Federal SuperMax. They'll turn up dead from falling and hitting their head on the toilet. Seventeen times.

Posted by: CUS at December 02, 2010 04:33 PM (wOGfT)

99 pssst (you guys can PRETEND you're willing to give Graham and Snowe a probationary test-period to encourage them to TRY to appease you... just sayin'... you don't have to believe it... just sort of go along with me here and say "if he votes conservative I'll give him and Snowe a chance...) Keep it low.
Posted by: ace ©

Hey gang! We're a stealth blog now!!

Yelling that kinda screwed that pooch, didn't it?

Posted by: Blue Hen at December 02, 2010 04:34 PM (R2fpr)

100 Ace, don't be fooled by Lindsey Graham. A couple of past nuggets to consider about him:
-Sen. Graham has been censured 2 times by the Republican GOP leaders in South Carolina forpursuinglegislation in contravention of his party and constituents
- Sen. Graham penned a joint NYT's Op Ed with Sen. Kerry entitled, "Yes We Can Pass Climate Change Legislation wherein he claims climate change is threatening everything from the economy to national security and thus sets up the moral imperative for "Cap Trade" legislation
-Sen. Graham has consistently sought Amnesty for people residing here illegally
-Sen. Graham actually publicly promoted the closing of GITMO i.e. camp x-ray in Guantanamo
-Andrew McCarthy's Feb. 25th article in NRO clearly points out the absurdity of Sen. Graham's GITMO closure position and belief terrorists wouldn't somehow be tried in Federal Court in the United States.
Sen. Graham will be voted out of office when he's up for reelection- the Tea Party will see to it.

Posted by: journolist at December 02, 2010 04:34 PM (LwLqV)

101 Posted by: jwest at December 02, 2010 04:32 PM (wBISB)

Dude, not necessary. Not every post needs to be about Sarah Palin, so drop it. We can kick his rear end over it when posts about Sarah, but don't turn this one into a flame war.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 04:34 PM (8y9MW)

102 92
Like with a drug addict. One day sober doesn't cut it.
No dude, once you go to rehab and get out, you are total trustworthy like.
See you next week, don't forget to bring your pillow this time.

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 04:34 PM (Ty06w)

103 Ace can’t pass up a chance to rag on Sarah Palin

I can haz Palin thread?

Posted by: real joe at December 02, 2010 04:35 PM (IpIBJ)

104 White Man speak with fork-ed tongue.

Posted by: Old Indian Chief at December 02, 2010 04:35 PM (CyPWX)

105 Graham did make his bone on the Clinton impeachment thing, though. Props for some nice work. Maybe Maverick led him astray, or Graham himself.
Hard to say. Graham's behavior is exactly that of a man whose wife has gone full moonbatty. However...
Lindsay likes lawyerin'. On the other hand, he likes lawyers and the exaulted position that they have. So if you put him in the position of some ol' courtroom antics, he's great, really sticks it to the opposition.
But when he's asked to give a judgement, he likes being in the club.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 02, 2010 04:36 PM (BvBKY)

106 Posted by: jwest at December 02, 2010 04:32 PM (wBISB)
And who the fuck are you?

Posted by: your masters, GWAR killed Sarah Palin at December 02, 2010 04:36 PM (ENYiU)

107 but don't turn this one into a flame war.
No....all you RINOS need to be flamed in a flame war!

Posted by: The Commentor Who Calls Everyone A RINO at December 02, 2010 04:36 PM (OWjjx)

108 Sen. Graham will be voted out of office when he's up for reelection- the Tea Party will see to it.
It's like those "Pro vs Con" lists you do when trying to decide things. Then you list them in order of weight. In the end, you're weighing Mr. Graham's conservative soul--
Does he have one? And is it bigger than a raisin?

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 04:37 PM (Ty06w)

109 Not every post needs to be about Sarah Palin, so drop it. We can kick
his rear end over it when posts about Sarah, but don't turn this one
into a flame war.


But Margaret Cho SAID so!!!!!

Posted by: Sponge © at December 02, 2010 04:37 PM (UK9cE)

110 -Sen. Graham has been censured 2 3 times by the Republican GOP leaders in
South Carolina forpursuinglegislation in contravention of his party
and constituents

FTFY

Posted by: Vic at December 02, 2010 04:37 PM (e4sSD)

111 Posted by: jwest at December 02, 2010 04:32 PM (wBISB)
You should probably also mention how Senator Castle would have voted on this too!

Posted by: Mallamutt, Professional Trouble Maker at December 02, 2010 04:38 PM (OWjjx)

112 He's not conservative, I doubt if he can even keep pretending all that long.
We could learn to pretend for months, even a full year if he takes lessons from Cornyn.

Posted by: Jack's androgynous confusion at December 02, 2010 04:38 PM (F/4zf)

113 >>>Ace can’t pass up a chance to rag on Sarah Palin, but he could get behind Lindsey Graham.

you're not a celebrity stalker or anything, huh?

Obsessive.

Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:39 PM (nj1bB)

114
It’s the irony…….

Posted by: jwest at December 02, 2010 04:40 PM (wBISB)

115 F-ing jihadis should be killed or held until the eternal Islamic "struggle in Allah's Cause"is over.They shouldget a hearingin which it's determined whether or not they are in fact at war with us. Then shitcanned if yes.
WhenI was first getting somewhat educated in history Ialways wondered how advanced civilizations lost to barbarians. I don't wonder any more.

Posted by: Beagle at December 02, 2010 04:40 PM (sOtz/)

116 Posted by: your masters, GWAR killed Sarah Palin at December 02, 2010 04:36 PM (ENYiU)


That was a pretty good look-a-like....

Posted by: Sponge © at December 02, 2010 04:40 PM (UK9cE)

117 never trust a Rino Ace, McCain ran to the Right to get re-elected, Gramnesty is just doing the same thing. re-elect him and the old Gramnesty will be back in full force,Lucy/football etc etc ...

Posted by: canuk at December 02, 2010 04:40 PM (lJ0X2)

118 >>>Ace can’t pass up a chance to rag on Sarah Palin, but he could get behind Lindsey Graham. you're not a celebrity stalker or anything, huh? Obsessive.
Posted by: ace ©

Add him to me!! Seriously, add him.

Posted by: Ace's list at December 02, 2010 04:40 PM (R2fpr)

119 Posted by: Jack's androgynous confusion at December 02, 2010 04:38 PM (F/4zf)

Oh, please don't remind me of Texas's own personal RINO. Or, rather, our OTHER personal RINO. How did TEXAS end up with John Cornyn and Kay Baily Hutchison?

And, he'd have to keep it up for more than a year, so that wouldn't do him much good anyway.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 04:41 PM (8y9MW)

120 Hey gang! We're a stealth blog now!!

Yelling that kinda screwed that pooch, didn't it?
Posted by: Blue Hen at December 02, 2010 04:34 PM (R2fpr)

Hmmm. I always thought this was a stealth blog. I always go into my closet when I log onto AoS.

Posted by: Soona at December 02, 2010 04:41 PM (GdqLE)

121 Aren't we worrying a tad prematurely about this? He isn't up until 2014. The Maine sisters rear their lovely heads two years prior.

Posted by: Ace's list at December 02, 2010 04:41 PM (R2fpr)

122 Journolist no like Lindsey Graham. Journolist wrote not so nice thing bout sen. Graham back 9 month ago by harvest moon on internet box under piece titled: "Conservolibberish Zone."
Journolist no like Sen. Graham politik.

Posted by: journolist at December 02, 2010 04:42 PM (LwLqV)

123 121 Aren't we worrying a tad prematurely about this? He isn't up until 2014. The Maine sisters rear their lovely heads two years prior.

DeMint's PAC is already raising money andtargeting B. Nelson, Tester, Dorgan and Manchin for 2012.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 02, 2010 04:43 PM (BvBKY)

124 Mr. Grahamnesty is up for re-election in 2014, he's hoping we will all forget he is a progressive douchebag within the next 3 years....
sorry, not gonna happen

Posted by: Shoey at December 02, 2010 04:43 PM (ehKDD)

125 At the end of the day, he will be concerned with who invites him to dinner inside the Beltway. But in the meantime, he remains a republican senator (although a very squishy one) for the next four years (and hopefully subject to a robust RNC free primary challenge in 2014).
So we should give him a chance (since we don't have a choice). But don't forget his support for both Sotomayor AND Kagan who will be helping the country along with their living interpretations of the Constitution for many many years.

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:44 PM (8nf3A)

126 WhenI was first getting somewhat educated in history Ialways wondered how advanced civilizations lost to barbarians. I don't wonder any more.Because being civilized means you lose the ability to fight dirty like your enemy. You become distanced from death and suffering because wealth and omfort makes you lazy etc... it's a combination of Watership Down and Mad Max with a soupcon´ of 300.

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 04:45 PM (Ty06w)

127 Barbarians don't have DADT.

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:46 PM (8nf3A)

128 Barbarians don't have lawyers either.

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:47 PM (8nf3A)

129 Yep not up again until 2014. I voted in the Republican Primary in order to vote against him. The poll workers acted surprised when I asked for Republican ballot because the Dem primary was held at the same time and the local sheriff was up for election by two Dems and no Repubs so the Dem primary was the election.

The Republican Party in this county sucks. They don't even have an office.

Posted by: Vic at December 02, 2010 04:47 PM (e4sSD)

130 @126 - Also because a "civilized" man can be stabbed in the back without much worry. The barbarian will probably brain you with an axe on his way down.


Barbarians don't have as much in-fighting. At least, not once the out-fighting starts.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 04:48 PM (8y9MW)

131 128 Barbarians don't have lawyers either.
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:47 PM (8nf3A)
Barbarians ARE lawyers.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 02, 2010 04:49 PM (BvBKY)

132 The Republican Party in this COUNTRY sucks.

Vic FIFY

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:49 PM (8nf3A)

133 who's up for good ol' fashioned "primarying"?
we have 3 years to plan...

Posted by: Shoey at December 02, 2010 04:49 PM (ehKDD)

134 without violating the pretty-important constitutional guarantee against self-incrimination

Once again, there are no constitutional guarantees with regards to foreign enemies.

Posted by: Soap MacTavish at December 02, 2010 04:50 PM (vbh31)

135 and lawyers are barbarians
a duality of sorts

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:50 PM (8nf3A)

136 Because being civilized means you lose the ability to fight dirty like your enemy. You become distanced from death and suffering because wealth and omfort makes you lazy etc... it's a combination of Watership Down and Mad Max with a soupcon´ of 300.

I'm not buying into that. Ask any WWII vet who fought in the Pacific theater. Or any vet who fought in Korea or Vietnam. The American warrior adapts quite well to dirty fightingwhen given the chance.

Posted by: Soona at December 02, 2010 04:50 PM (GdqLE)

137 No one who is a foreign national and an enemy combatant should ever be mirandized, regardless of where they are caught, or rather, they should not have the rights of our Constitution once we determine that we are foreign nationals AND enemy Combatants.

I can understand the police doing it in the Christmas Bomber case because they don't know his status. Once we determine he isn't a US citizen and is in fact an unlawful enemy combatant (which he is), the gloves come off.

Geneva doesn't cover these guys, unless you want to call them spies, which gives us legal cover for however we want to treat them.

As for Lindsey Graham, if he REALLY comes to Jesus and begins to actually function and talks and behave like a true Conservative, I PERSONALLY will be the guy's biggest fan. The same goes for any of the current RINOs. Unlike liberals, forgiveness is part of the Conservative core.


Posted by: blindside at December 02, 2010 04:50 PM (x7g7t)

138 As long as he votes the right way, he can keep his job, but it's unlikely he will be able to stand not being invited to the left parties.

Posted by: erp at December 02, 2010 04:50 PM (Wkm4K)

139 Votin' for Amnesty, that's a primaryin' ... Carbon tax, that a primaryin'

Posted by: Jasper at December 02, 2010 04:51 PM (S5YRY)

140 If they (muzzie terrorists) aren't citizens, then why do any constitutional rights apply to them. They have no claim to its protection or rules?

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:51 PM (8nf3A)

141 “who's up for good ol' fashioned "primarying"?”

But…but…..he’s electable!

Think of the moderates! Won’t somebody think of the moderates!

Posted by: jwest at December 02, 2010 04:53 PM (wBISB)

142 Aren't we worrying a tad prematurely about this? He isn't up until 2014. The Maine sisters rear their lovely heads two years prior. DeMint's PAC is already raising money andtargeting B. Nelson, Tester, Dorgan and Manchin for 2012.
Posted by: AmishDude

Understood. I understand focusing on 2012. Especially the need to line up worthy oopponents. Not every state can have people like C O'D.
I am now adding myself to myself.

Posted by: Ace's list at December 02, 2010 04:53 PM (R2fpr)

143

But it makes sense to formalize it as a law, too, and change the law some too.
There's no way to "change the law some too."

Only the SCOTUS can "change the law."

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 02, 2010 04:55 PM (7+pP9)

144 jwest, who the fuck brought up Palin again? Me? Or You?

In 2008, everyone got a little annoyed at each other during the primaries, because primaries divide people. Thompson, Romney, and Giuliani people all went at each other.

it was a tough period with a lot of friction, but at least it was only about six months.

With fucking Palin, a lot of the Palin supporters have now been fucking pushing her as if the primaries were happening now for two years already.

It is EXHAUSTING. Primary season and intensity should be 6-9 months not four straight years.

Shut the fuck up with the constant shrieking and whining and grumbling already. Can you at least wait until she DECLARES? Can you wait until mid-2011 at least?

no, no. Because nothing else matters. For a lot of people the only thing that matters is the personal struggles and vindication of Saint Sarah of Wasilla.

Is there not a single thing in the world apart from Palin that interests you?!

Jesus God, please give it a rest. Please.

This fucking four year Sarah-only primary season is wearing people out. Not you, jwest. But most everyone else.

Ron Paul!!!!11! could take lessons from you, jwest.


Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:55 PM (nj1bB)

145 I'm not buying into that. Ask any WWII vet who fought in the Pacific theater. Or any vet who fought in Korea or Vietnam. The American warrior adapts quite well to dirty fightingwhen given the chance.
I was being more broad (sorry I wasn't clearer) more about our super duper soft babied and pampered culture than about actual soldiers. IOW, the average American would freak out if they were without cell service or land lines. Orfor some, even lack of a dishwasher orno TV is hell on earth. If the lights go out, they're hysterical... no way they'd surviveif they had touse an outhouse, or pump water prior to heating it for a bath. Or raise chickens for eggs or food etc. Barbarians can--We (ok, they) can't.
It used to be you'd keep those in power who kept you fed. Now? You'd vote to keep those in power who kept the net porn sites up.

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 04:55 PM (Ty06w)

146 Soona
WWII and Korea, we still had the balls to actually fight a war (note that Korea was a police action not a declared war).
VietNam, not so much

From what I see all the subsequent middle east adventures have been conducted on a half-ass, but civilized, basis.

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:55 PM (8nf3A)

147 your honor, i'm a simple caveman, your modern world frightens and confuses me, but even a caveman knows....yacktey, smackety, blah, blah, blah!
(i thought the Judges were the barbarians)

Posted by: caveman lawyer at large at December 02, 2010 04:56 PM (ehKDD)

148 >>>Only the SCOTUS can "change the law."

that's not really true. Congress can attempt to force a change in the law. Especially in national security areas, the Court gives a lot more deference.

Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:56 PM (nj1bB)

149 Forgive Lindsay? Having some angina then?

Posted by: gary gulrud at December 02, 2010 04:59 PM (/g2vP)

150 It used to be you'd keep those in power who kept you fed. Now? You'd vote to keep those in power who kept the net porn sites up.

Well...yah.

Posted by: Soona at December 02, 2010 04:59 PM (GdqLE)

151 And @144 was Precisely what I was trying to prevent... Oh, well...

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 05:01 PM (8y9MW)

152 Only the SCOTUS can "change the law."

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 02, 2010 04:55 PM (7+pP9)
I'd argue that Miranda is a particularly egregious example of SCOTUS legislating from the bench.Nothing in the Constitution or Bill of Rights indicates that one must be informed of their right not to incriminate themselves. Not even a hint. It was just an example of SCOTUS pulling out of thin air something they wanted.

Posted by: blindside at December 02, 2010 05:02 PM (x7g7t)

153

I'm not buying into that. Ask any WWII vet who
fought in the Pacific theater. Or any vet who fought in Korea or
Vietnam. The American warrior adapts quite well to dirty fightingwhen
given the chance.

Posted by: Soona at December 02, 2010 04:50 PM (GdqLE)
We have a different breed of "leaders" now. Fighting"dirty" is off the table.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 02, 2010 05:02 PM (7+pP9)

154
It used to be you'd keep those in power who kept you fed. Now? You'd vote to keep those in power who kept the net porn sites up. Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 04:55 PM (Ty06w)
What is it with people who post here without knowing anything about morons?OF COURSE we'd vote for those who keep the porn on. HELLO?!?!We can feed ourselves as long as we have hobos.

Posted by: Merovign, Strong on His Mountain at December 02, 2010 05:02 PM (bxiXv)

155 Who wins a cage deathmatch between Wicket the Ewok and a Leprechaun?

Posted by: steevy at December 02, 2010 05:03 PM (9Gt+E)

156 I looked in the dictionary under DORK and this is what I got. http://tinyurl.com/2fyms78

Posted by: Krazy Kat at December 02, 2010 05:03 PM (Szp6V)

157 We have a different breed of "leaders" now. Fighting"dirty" is off the table.
Posted by: Ed Anger at December 02, 2010 05:02 PM (7+pP9)

Wait till NY, Chicago, or Boston disappears.

Posted by: nevergiveup at December 02, 2010 05:03 PM (0GFWk)

158 Who wins a cage deathmatch between Wicket the Ewok and a Leprechaun?
Posted by: steevy at December 02, 2010 05:03 PM (9Gt+E)

the one that brings the gun to the knife fight

Posted by: nevergiveup at December 02, 2010 05:04 PM (0GFWk)

159 if the Ewok can get ahold of the "lucky charms" its all over for the leprechaun.

Posted by: the Odds at December 02, 2010 05:06 PM (ehKDD)

160 We can feed ourselves as long as we have hobos.Well I'm a noboterian. I'll stick to the chickens and ducks.

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 05:06 PM (Ty06w)

161 I would like to thank jwest for coming to my defense after Ace's pretty vicious rant against me in his post on Lyndsey Graham. When Ace states : "If Graham became more of a conservative, I could get behind him and forgive him", he's actually attacking me for being an ignorant hillbilly who hates America. When Ace adds : "But he has to get a lot more conservative, or else he's gotta go", he's obviously calling Trig a retard. Don't let him get away with this and Ace, stop being a h8ter.

Posted by: Sarah Palin at December 02, 2010 05:06 PM (LLZiU)

162 The Ewok has his little spear and the Leprechaun has a good blacthorne shillelagh.

Posted by: steevy at December 02, 2010 05:06 PM (9Gt+E)

163 Wait till NY, Chicago, or Boston disappears.
I don't think we down in the deep south would notice.

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 05:07 PM (Ty06w)

164 Ron Paul!!!!11! could take lessons from you

You rang?

Posted by: Paulbot v2.008 AutoTroll Daemon at December 02, 2010 05:07 PM (5Rurq)

165 Wait till NY, Chicago, or Boston disappears.

I don't think we down in the deep south would notice.

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 05:07 PM (Ty06w)

Well that do depend on which way the wind is blowing?

Posted by: nevergiveup at December 02, 2010 05:09 PM (0GFWk)

166 Well that do depend on which way the wind is blowing?Before or after they're gone???

Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 05:11 PM (Ty06w)

167 Graham has always been in favor of GITMO....but he was the one Republican negotiating with the Administration over closing GITMO.
Posted by: Mallamutt at December 02, 2010 04:03 PM (OWjjx)
<That's like ordering a non-coke brand coke.

Posted by: journolist at December 02, 2010 05:11 PM (LwLqV)

168 156 Sweet Jesus, that is startling!

Posted by: SurferDoc at December 02, 2010 05:12 PM (o3bYL)

169 Shoot a hippie.
Save a Marine.

Posted by: Uncle Jefe at December 02, 2010 05:12 PM (+3fAP)

170

148
>>>Only the SCOTUS can "change the law."



that's not really true. Congress can attempt to force a change in the
law. Especially in national security areas, the Court gives a lot more
deference.







Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:56 PM (nj1bB)
It is really true -- Congress can't do jack shit about it. It's the SCOTUS or nothing.

Post #152 gets it right.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 02, 2010 05:13 PM (7+pP9)

171 From what I see all the subsequent middle east adventures have been conducted on a half-ass, but civilized, basis.
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 04:55 PM (8nf3A)

I understand what you're saying. But right now, and I could probably bet my left nut on it, the majority of the American people would like to see a full-fledged nasty war taken to our enemies. IMHO, if Bush would have prosecuted an all out war and, at least, brought quicker results the war fatigue would not have settled in like it did. This "kinder/gentler war" is the product of an ideology of alesser percentage of people in this nation who have gained, for one reason or another, the power of our education system and the MFM. But I think we're witnessing a definite change of heart toward waging war against our enemysince Dear Leader took over. The "pussy factor" is there for all to see.

Posted by: Soona at December 02, 2010 05:14 PM (GdqLE)

172 Well I'm a noboterian. I'll stick to the chickens and ducks. Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 02, 2010 05:06 PM (Ty06w)
Hey, don't you push your religion on me, pal!

Posted by: Merovign, Strong on His Mountain at December 02, 2010 05:16 PM (bxiXv)

173 >>>Only the SCOTUS can "change the law." Breakin' the Law

Posted by: Judas Priest at December 02, 2010 05:17 PM (ENYiU)

174 Speaking of Ron Paul:

The House voted 234-188 Thursday to pass legislation that would extend only some of the expiring Bush-era tax cuts, sending the bill to the Senate.

Twenty Democrats broke with their party and voted against the bill after 33 had defected in a previous test vote. Most of those who voted with Republicans on the first ballot were members of the centrist Blue Dog Coalition, and many lost their bids to be reelected last month.

Three Republicans, Walter Jones (N.C.), Ron Paul (Texas) and John Duncan (Tenn.), voted with Democrats to renew only the middle-class cuts.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at December 02, 2010 05:19 PM (yea0z)

175 If Graham became more of a conservative, I could get behind him and forgive him.

You've got to be kidding. Beaten wife syndrome.

The guy is a RINO prick, but now that he is up for re-election, he "becomes more of a conservative" (read: pretends to be conservative by spewing some rhetoric) and you're all ready to take him back? Seriously, WTF? Don't tell me you're going to fall for this bullshit from Grahmnesty.

Posted by: Clyde Shelton at December 02, 2010 05:22 PM (NITzp)

176 Three Republicans, Walter Jones (N.C.), Ron Paul (Texas) and John Duncan (Tenn.), voted with Democrats to renew only the middle-class cuts.
FUCK YOU, RON PAUL! (the next election slogan)

Posted by: Soona at December 02, 2010 05:22 PM (GdqLE)

177 Ron Paul is a deranged midget.

Posted by: Dr Spank at December 02, 2010 05:23 PM (LLZiU)

178 * Actually by its own terms that applies at trial only but the Court has ruled that, in practice, if someone gives a videotaped confession at a police interrogation room which is subsequently admitted at trial, that's close enough to compelling a confession at trial. Same practical effect. It's just that the event happens outside the courthouse.
YOU LIE! No such ruling has come down. Miranda itself states that if the rights were given, the statement is not compelled. Coersion is removed by Miranda warning being given.
No court has ruled it. I will eat eggs if you can cite to the case. The only way it is compelled

Posted by: Rightzilla at December 02, 2010 05:24 PM (ujT7B)

179 You've got to be kidding. Beaten wife syndrome. You'd be a fool to take him back now!

Posted by: Tina Turner at December 02, 2010 05:24 PM (HLGCA)

180 @59 I prefer Sick of You.

Posted by: Creepy Short Person at December 02, 2010 05:26 PM (CyPWX)

181 On Graham, glad to hear the new tone. I doubt its longevity, but all told, it's better than having him pushing DREAM or some other form of amnesty.
As to the legal issues, I know it's not "nuanced", and I know we are a nation of laws, not men, etc. I know you do not change laws lightly. But we are at war for Chrissakes, with an implacable enemy who obeys no conventional rules. Under the threat they present, I do not feel that looking outside the box for an appropriate legal framework to handle this which recognizes the uniqueness of the situation.
There has to be a reasonable approach somewhere between Mirandizing terrorists on the battlefield and paying out of our own pockets for David Boies to defend them, and summarily turning any nation that we suspect might harbor terrorists into a glass parking lot.

Posted by: RM at December 02, 2010 05:27 PM (GkYyh)

182 Sorry - a quick correction to "181,
Under the threat they present, I do not feel that looking outside the box for an appropriate legal framework to handle this which recognizes the uniqueness of the situation is unreasonable.

Posted by: RM at December 02, 2010 05:29 PM (GkYyh)

183 The problem with that is that, when (not if) he "violates" his probation 20 minutes after he get's re-elected, there's nothing that can be done for another 6 years.

No, I'm done with them. You get 1 strike. That's it. One really big screw-up and I want you out. If you want to prove your Conservative mettle elsewhere and then run again, fine, but you don't get to keep having "come to Jesus" moments just in time to try to fend off primary challengers.

And I'm willing to forgive relatively minor screw-ups: especially if you'll admit that they're screw-ups. But Amnesty is a big, big no-no.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 02, 2010 04:15 PM

THIS.

You know, we sit here and bitch about asshole politicians who continually fuck us over. Yet, when one of them starts promising he will go to counseling and things will get better, he promises, the same people who bitched and moaned turn around and say naive shit like "I could get behind him and forgive him".

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

I'm sick of this battered wife syndrome from GOP-voters. You keep forgiving these assholes, and they're going to continue to fuck us. ENOUGH.

Posted by: Clyde Shelton at December 02, 2010 05:30 PM (NITzp)

184 I prefer Sick of You.
Not my favorite.
- Maggots

Posted by: garrett at December 02, 2010 05:35 PM (ENYiU)

185 Ace,

I can see you’re a bit touchy about this subject right now and you know how you get when you’re like that.

You went to the trouble of posting something that didn’t in any way reaffirm the liberal talking points against Palin and I went and ruined it by making a bad joke about getting behind Graham. That was uncalled for.

Posted by: jwest at December 02, 2010 05:36 PM (wBISB)

186 We need a new way to classify these folks, but it does make me a bit edgy -- what with the question: "just who would be classified as a terrorist now?"

Posted by: unknown jane at December 02, 2010 05:46 PM (5/yRG)

187 Heard that Graham was supported at least by Soros-funded groups. Anyone checks into that? If that 's the case, we can't trust him. Graham must be primaried, especially in SC.

Posted by: LAI at December 02, 2010 05:52 PM (DH9np)

188 I love a constitutional crim law thread.
Picking up an underpants bomber at a US airport is different from scooping up a scumbag off a foreign battlefield. I can see trying the underpants guy in a civilian court, esp. if he is a US citizen.
The scumbag al qaeda off a foreign battlefield has no rights.He isn't part of a recognized army. He is a guerilla, an irregular, a terrorist and may be dealt with summarily under the ancient law of war. Interrogate, tribunal, bullet.

Posted by: real joe at December 02, 2010 05:55 PM (w7Lv+)

189 183 - I think we'll be able to tell the difference if his conversion is real. A RINO won't be able to resist fucking us over when the opportunity presents itself, and the next two years is going to have changes to do just that GALORE.

Someone who is simply playing at conservatism will slip up and we'll see that it is nothing more than a facade. Keep sticking a microphone in the guy's face and we'll be able to easily determine if he means what he says or is just playing for the upcoming re-election bids.

I'm not holding my breath he'll suddenly see the light, but one can always hope while preparing to primary his azz...

Posted by: blindside at December 02, 2010 05:55 PM (x7g7t)

190 Our military is not designed to arrest suspects and gather evidence, like the police. That's why civilian trials for KSM and others is doomed to failure. The evidence is inadmissible under our law. But those rights have never been extended to the enemy in a war. What can we expect from an administration that won't even name who the enemy is?

Posted by: real joe at December 02, 2010 05:58 PM (w7Lv+)

191 Sen. Graham is up for re-election in 2014. Please, somebody/anybody, primary his ass.

We all understand we are in a 3 election cycle covering 6 years:

1. 2010 - Take back the House of Representatives and flip as many Senate seats as possible. Personally, I think what happened Nov 2 is as good as we could reasonably have expected. We did get the House and a LOT of State legislatures which helps enormously in redistricting. No matter what happened, we could not have gotten 60 Senate seats in 2010. Let's live with this reality.

2. 2012 - Toss out POTUS and get the U.S. Senate as close to 60 Republicans as possible. Primary whatever Repubs still 'don't get the message', i.e. Richard Lugar, et al.

3. 2014 - Throw out all the remaining trash - including Lindsay Graham

4. 2016 - Rinse and repeat

Posted by: alwyr at December 02, 2010 05:58 PM (w2++y)

192 188 - are spies captured in the US treated the same a citizen who is arrested for murder?


Posted by: blindside at December 02, 2010 05:59 PM (x7g7t)

193 Well it does go to the point of who said 'terrorists are plotting with WMD's and they don't deserve Miranda Rights" a substantive argument, the Courts thanks to the Levick Grp, and the Journolist chose to ignore all the precedents, in Hamdi to Boumedienne,

Posted by: justin cord at December 02, 2010 06:01 PM (V3JdB)

194 @184

Lacking, just like Rino's Lindsey Gramnesty

Posted by: Creepy Short Person at December 02, 2010 06:03 PM (CyPWX)

195 are spies captured in the US treated the same a citizen who is arrested for murder?

I don't think so. The WWII case that went to Sup Ct, guy was a US citizen captured with Nazi spies off a U-boat. He got the tribunal/execution package.
So I am even being generous giving underpants bomber a trial.
Except today we are fighting a radical ideology instead of a recognized nation. Makes things hazier. Underpants guy could have acted alone.

Posted by: real joe at December 02, 2010 06:08 PM (w7Lv+)

196 So far the military commissions have racked up a pretty poor score: 1 life without , 1 time served plus 9 months. 1 time served plus 5 months, and 2 all charges dropped.

Posted by: archie bunker at December 02, 2010 06:19 PM (0YS61)

197 His new tone on immigration is welcome.

Listen to him and keep a careful eye on him. He's probably got something else in mind.

Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at December 02, 2010 06:25 PM (jQy/O)

198 So far the military commissions have racked up a pretty poor score: 1
life without , 1 time served plus 9 months. 1 time served plus 5 months,
and 2 all charges dropped.
So, you're saying justice wasn't served, or what? Don't just cut and paste some little thought turd you picked up at Huff Puff but didn't understand. Elaborate.

Or just STFU, dunce.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 02, 2010 06:25 PM (S5YRY)

199 Ace: "Let him be a pundit or elder-statesman type if he wants to be a maverick."

No, that's my job... except when it isn't... even though I am... when I choose to be... as far as you know.

Posted by: THE Maverick McCain at December 02, 2010 06:29 PM (swuwV)

200 i'm too lazy to slog thru this shit to see if this is a re-post.... however;

what the fuck is the bi-sexual Gray-ha-hamm trying so desperately cover up that he is damn near a heart attack in the race to the right...?

fuck lindsey... fuck his family.... fuck his ancestors.... and fuck the generations that follow his seed. Fuck his progeny in Biblical proportions... ' cause he sure as hell has fucked us.
signed;
fu leslie... you fucking douche... go smoke "central power" pole in another country, you power hungry piece of shit.

PS: PRIMARIES WORK
(hope i'm not banned yet)

Posted by: j2 at December 02, 2010 06:29 PM (DCdSz)

201 The only reason Lindsey Graham shouldn't be primaried is if he transforms himself into someone who's not Lindsey Graham.

Posted by: MlR at December 02, 2010 07:19 PM (vuHIt)

202 Three Republicans, Walter Jones (N.C.), Ron Paul (Texas) and John Duncan (Tenn.), voted with Democrats to renew only the middle-class cuts.


Walter Jones is no fucking Republican, he is a weasel. His dad served in the US House as a Democrat for 30 years. Little Walter served in the NC House as a DEMOCRAT, then, I am shocked, he changed parties to run for his dad's seat as a Republican. Wonder why?

He is a sleazeball, like Etheridge.

Not to be trusted for anything, except something that will keep on the tit.

We're going to run someone against this asshole in the primary, trust me.


Posted by: Kemp at December 02, 2010 07:38 PM (JpFM9)

203 171
I agree that most Americans would approve actually fighting a war with victory as its goal, but we have let our hands be tied behind our backs and our ankles shackled thanks to the progressives, lawyers, inside the beltway pukes, the Euro-socialists, RINOs, Harvard grads, etc.

If the esteemed Congress can't get its act together and declare war (total all-out mother-f***g no-quarter war) then we (and our troops) should stay at home and shop.

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 02, 2010 07:41 PM (8nf3A)

204 Let him get right with Jesus and the Constitution. Then fire him.
Bwa-ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (*evil Soros grin*)

Posted by: chuck in st paul at December 02, 2010 09:05 PM (EhYdw)

205 I forget myself. hey, I'll google it. What an idea.
Posted by: ace © at December 02, 2010 04:00 PM (nj1bB)
You don't google it....it google you!

Posted by: google, evil at December 02, 2010 09:12 PM (YYDwl)

206 Ok, so if the South seceded again, and didn't wear uniforms, the US military would have to Miradize them on the battlefield, because it's on US soil? Is that the way it works, now? How confusing.
Not to give any Southerners any ideas, or anything (but that would seem to offer a big advantage vs. last time)!!
Then, again, since there is still at least one person shouting "The South Shall Rise Again!", and flying a Confederate flag, the Civil War can't be counted as over, by the modern Irag War standard.
Why the hell does anybody listen to a whit these people have to say? They might as well be spouting off about extraterrestrials. Oh, wait ... they're sorta doing that now, too...

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