Unmosqued: Moderate Bridge-Builder Imam Rauf Places Terrorism Firmly In Conventional, Legitimate History of Warfare; Says US Terrorism Causes Islamic Terrorism

Citing the example (the go-to complaint of neo-Nazis such as David Irving, by the way) of Curtis LeMay's firebombing of Axis cities*, Rauf asserts that the West has always engaged in terrorism.

He then attempts to claim that continues to the present day by quoting Madeleine Albright saying that civilian casualties due to sanctions against Iraq (not warfare) were unfortunate but necessary. He seems to ignore the part where sanctions are not in fact warfare at all, and can be legitimate, which is not even remotely true in the case of terrorism -- in that case, civilian casualties are not an unfortunate, unavoidable consequence of a military action, but in fact the whole point.

His claim that 1,000,000 Iraqis died due to sanctions is, of course, purely crank, the product of overheated leftist imaginations and Muslim eagerness for any grievances that can justify their murderous terrorism.

He then goes on to claim that the US is using a double-standard in defining terrorism, and urges a "neutral" definition which would bind "both sides."

So his claim is, once again, that Islam isn't doing anything the US isn't doing, and that it's unfair to make a big deal out of Islam's terror.

Once again he makes the same offer that Obama did, just with less threatening language: Never, ever challenge an Islamic state militarily -- or even with steps short of military action such as sanctions -- and we'll see about calling ixnay on the errorism-tay. Deal?

No deal.

This is the exact same defense of terrorism offered by every single one of its supporters.

This won't do.

A man who continues to drone on and on with his apologias for terror is a "moderate" whose plans for a trimphal victory mosque we must not frustrate.


* I wrote he said "Dresden" but he spoke of firebombing "over 60 Japanese cities." I have corrected to the vaguer "Axis cities" in order to note that all neo-Nazis ever want to talk about is the horror of Dresden.

Thanks to OlafK. for pointing the error out.

More Corrections: I also cleared up/cleaned up the part about Madelein Albright.

Posted by: Ace at 11:05 AM



Comments

1 Curtis LeMay firebombed Tokyo. I think it was Arthur Harris who firebombed Dresden (I'm also too lazy to look it up.)

Posted by: Olaf K. at August 26, 2010 11:07 AM (bElqE)

2 of course if a terrorist shoots at a US soldier and then runs into a house or school we have the right to bomb that building. That is our right of self defense

Posted by: denny crane at August 26, 2010 11:07 AM (I+7Zv)

3 Curtis LeMay's
one of my personal heroes. Also, if i am not mistaken, the firebombing of Dresden was more Arthur Harris's idea.
LeMay is the one who came up with all the great ideas to bring Japan to its knees, specifically dropping regular bombs before the incendiaries, that way you create kindling for a huge fire.
I had a history teach from Germany in college, he would always preach this kind of shit and compare Gitmo to concentration camps.

Posted by: Ben at August 26, 2010 11:09 AM (wuv1c)

4 Riiiight.

Posted by: The Children of Beslan at August 26, 2010 11:09 AM (sOtz/)

5
Reality still reality. Ground Zero Mosque at former Burlington Coat Factory still in bad taste.

71% of the nation agree.



Posted by: Lemon Kitten at August 26, 2010 11:10 AM (0fzsA)

6 Also, we bombed Dresden and other cities as a way to end a war and create a peaceful europe.
What were the terrorists on 9/11's goals?

Posted by: Ben at August 26, 2010 11:11 AM (wuv1c)

7 I used to be "moderate" in my views on Islam. But the more I read/hear/understand it, I've become very nuanced in my views.
Islam is a violence/hate/death focused religion, which freely welcomes loonies into its midst (while murdering actual moderates for things like being able to read or not wanting to wear a sack), training and turning them loose on the rest of us to wreak havoc and death.
It peaked during a time when everyone else was trying to survive plagues and crop failure. It promptly got its butt kicked when people noticed Muslims were by and large a**holes. It has been thus ever since, until the "elites" decided that kicking a** was somehow "disproportionate" and unfair, especially if the a** in question wanted to kill Westerners.
Not that I'm bitter or anything.

Posted by: I Denounce Myself at August 26, 2010 11:11 AM (y5VNb)

8 get our money back from his fundraising tour and kick him out of our country

Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 26, 2010 11:11 AM (rr5XB)

9 This is typical.

If you don't believe in such a thing as an "innocent civilian" (ie all Kuffir are "legitimate" targets") then there really ISN'T a distinction between a military action and "terrorism".


Posted by: looking closely at August 26, 2010 11:12 AM (6Q9g2)

10 Although LeMay had a critical part in planning and conducting Strategic Bombing in Europe he had movied on to the Pacific months and months before Dresden.

Dresden was Harris'* show with the US helping out in the daylight part of the operation.

*Brit Bomber command leader. aka Bomber Harris.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at August 26, 2010 11:12 AM (5Plp1)

11 And he opened the Fifth Seal, and trumpets sounded, and Ace posted before noon.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at August 26, 2010 11:13 AM (5aa4z)

12 What were the terrorists on 9/11's goals?
Posted by: Ben at August 26, 2010 11:11 AM (wuv1c)
To bring about an environment that would necessitate the building of a giant mosque to foster interfaith dialogue?
Yeah, I know...

Posted by: ErikW at August 26, 2010 11:14 AM (kSgvR)

13 Since the ROP likes to go back a thousand years to justify its grievances, the fact remains that muslims started this war with America with the Barbary pirates claiming they had permission from allah to attack infidel shipping and steal cargo and slaughter crews. This was the first projection of US military power outside our borders in our history. Time to remind them what "the shores of Tripoli" really means.

Posted by: bigred at August 26, 2010 11:14 AM (cX9pO)

14 New Taiwanese animation about the mosque story, and they even include a picture of "Greg's Ground Zero Gay Bar":

http://tinyurl.com/33m2pno

Posted by: Tresjin at August 26, 2010 11:15 AM (BFm2s)

15 This is a smart mil-blog! 3 corrections to the LeMay mistake in seven minutes since the post went up.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at August 26, 2010 11:15 AM (5Plp1)

16 I find the saying "give a man (iman) enough rope and he will hang himself" particularly appropriate in this instance. Gotta love the continued friendly media exposure for Rauf, he keeps saying shit like this and then wonders why people are becoming more opposing to the mosque not less.

And yes, it was "Bomber" Harris that approved the firebombing of Dresden. And the firebombing of Tokyo taught the world a valuable lesson, don't build everything out of wood.

Posted by: Penfold at August 26, 2010 11:16 AM (1PeEC)

17 My opinion is if the options are reduced to war, you go all in. You don't risk the lives of your military without clear and concise goals. Kill until the opposition gives up.

Posted by: Radioactive Satellite Of LOVE at August 26, 2010 11:17 AM (LdYLm)

18
Unmasked: Senator Schumer's(D) Attempt to Silence Political Speech
yes yes - lifted from insty.

The first amendment is a problem of corruptocrats.

"His words revealed the true motivation of this legislation – it is not
transparency but rather silencing speech in this critical election
year. The Supreme Court in Citizens United v. FEC restored
the First Amendment protection to political speech. Small businesses,
corporations, unions, and membership based organizations may now have a
voice in the public discourse. The Democratic leadership that is
tasked with re-electing incumbent politicians and trying to minimize
Democratic losses this November were understandably fearful of what the
public may say now that their voices have been restored. One issue the
Democrats would rather not let the American people be reminded of is
the national 9.5% unemployment rate."


Posted by: Lemon Kitten at August 26, 2010 11:17 AM (0fzsA)

19 So...if all is fair, then I suppose the whole Israeli whipping ass thing for sixty years is OK.


Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 11:17 AM (NvFZs)

20
for corruptocrats....

Posted by: Lemon Kitten at August 26, 2010 11:17 AM (0fzsA)

21 And the firebombing of Tokyo taught the world a valuable lesson, don't build everything out of wood.

Some people just don't pay attention the first time around.

Posted by: City of London, 1666 at August 26, 2010 11:18 AM (ZJ9VU)

22 #14 That video is hilarious, yet strangely inflammatory.
As usual, you don't have to speak a word of Mandarin to get it.

Posted by: looking closely at August 26, 2010 11:18 AM (PwGfd)

23 ixne?

it is spelled ixnay. pig latin for nix.

Posted by: nine coconuts at August 26, 2010 11:18 AM (DHNp4)

24 Yes, that Imam Ruff is a healer, alright.

Posted by: real joe at August 26, 2010 11:19 AM (IpIBJ)

25 If we,and Israel, were terrorists (as the islamists always claim)Muslims would not exist.
It is all so silly.Islamists do their very utmost to kill as many people as they can, without discrimination. Can youimagine the (horrific)deathtoll if that was our (orIsrael's) intent?

Posted by: Brian at August 26, 2010 11:20 AM (kFeuD)

26 23
ixne?





it is spelled ixnay. pig latin for nix.

Posted by: nine coconuts at August 26, 2010 11:18 AM (DHNp4)
Obamaway isway away oucheday ozzlenay

Posted by: Radioactive Satellite Of LOVE at August 26, 2010 11:21 AM (LdYLm)

27 Related question: Is "Bombs Away" LeMay the greatest nickname ever?

Posted by: Olaf K. at August 26, 2010 11:21 AM (bElqE)

28 Unsaid things that really should be on the table:

We wouldn't have this problem if the Crusades had worked.


Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 11:22 AM (NvFZs)

29 What really pisses me off is we are paying for this asshole to travel around the ME and spread this horseshit.

When questioned the State Department's defense? "its all aboveboard, we are not trying to hide anything". That is some serious WTF there. What they are saying is yeah he is an asshole and we are financing his lies and propaganda and no we don't give a shit that you don'[t like it because you can't do a damn thing about it. I am a State Department bureaucrat and impervious to to any retribution.

Posted by: Vic at August 26, 2010 11:22 AM (/jbAw)

30 Looks like he's been reading Chomsky.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at August 26, 2010 11:22 AM (fLHQe)

31
Another Ground Zero mosque supporter cannot bring himself to say that Hamas is a Terrorist Organization.


Posted by: Lemon Kitten at August 26, 2010 11:23 AM (0fzsA)

32 New Taiwanese animation about the mosque story, and they even include a picture of "Greg's Ground Zero Gay Bar":http://tinyurl.com/33m2pno
ace post this. that is freaking hilarious. i like how when obama is alone he puts on a cap and begins praying to allah.

Posted by: Ben at August 26, 2010 11:23 AM (wuv1c)

33 Even stipulating purely for the sake of argument, that hijacking planes full of civilians and flying them into the World Trade Center to kill yet more civilians was a "legitimate" response to American foreign policy; that STILL doesn't justify/legitimize building a mosque at the site of the attack.


Posted by: looking closely at August 26, 2010 11:24 AM (6Q9g2)

34 All those Christian pilots are probably plotting to fly a 767 into Mecca, right now.

Yeah, right.

Last time I looked it was Muslims killing Muslims. Shia vs Sunnis.

I guess he never heard of the Iran Iraq war. The West must have started that one too.

Posted by: Richard Blaine at August 26, 2010 11:24 AM (vSiVD)

35
> 14 New Taiwanese animation about the mosque story ...
Posted by: Tresjin

OMG - they even have Obama as a Secret Muslim at the 45 second mark!

I, for one, hail our new animated Taiwanese overlords...

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at August 26, 2010 11:25 AM (5Plp1)

36 As an aside, Kurt Vonnegut (yeah, I know) was a POW held at Dresden during the bombing and was forced to help in cleaning up the aftermath. This was the basis for his book Slaughterhouse Five, which was the camp he was held in.

Posted by: bigred at August 26, 2010 11:26 AM (cX9pO)

37 “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.”

Article VII of the Hamas charter.

These guys might want to be a little more firm in their stance on terror.

Posted by: MJ at August 26, 2010 11:27 AM (BKOsZ)

38 Some people just don't pay attention the first time around.

They should have listened to us too.


Posted by: The three little pigs at August 26, 2010 11:27 AM (tf9Ne)

39 Seems like he has a point - in times of war all tactics are on the table. There are reasons to hold back, but there is no "moral law" or "international law" that sets the rules in an existential fight.
So certain portions of Islam are at war with Israel, India, Europe, the US, Thailand, Australia, China, Russia, and others.
The question we need to ask is "which portions of Islam?" "Whose side is he on?" "Can we fight back?"

Therein lies the double standards...

Posted by: nine coconuts at August 26, 2010 11:27 AM (DHNp4)

40 I don't think the giant shithouse will ever be built. I think if the fuckers can't build the damn thing on ground zero they won't build it at all. They only want to build it there to rub our noses in it anyway. I know how those cockroaches think. They want a victory to crow about. They want to brag that they defeated the Americans again and built a victory Mosque on ground zero. Fuck them, it ain't happening. I say we build a cathedralAND a synagogue in fukkin'Mecca. When that happens, they can build their shithouse.

Posted by: maddogg at August 26, 2010 11:27 AM (OlN4e)

41 Hmmm.... so... this guy equates the Total War of WWII with Terrorists of today.
As someone who believes in recipricocity... ie, do unto others as THEY have done unto you... HARDER...
OK... Islam destroyed an Icon of American Capitalism, the Twin Towers... 2 of them... thus we need to take out two of Islams Holy sites, and everything around them...
After all, the Moslems do say they also revere the Old Testament, and an Eye for an Eye is part of THEIR worldview...

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 26, 2010 11:28 AM (H+oXM)

42
There would be peace in this world if Columbus kept his nosey European imperial ass in Europe in 1492. The United States is at the root of all the world's strife and hardship.

Posted by: stupid typical fucking moonbat© at August 26, 2010 11:28 AM (uFokq)

43 I guess he never heard of the Iran Iraq war. The West must have started that one too.

Don't forget, to these people, the USA is responsible for everything that Saddam did.

Posted by: Methos at August 26, 2010 11:28 AM (Y9dgH)

44 Man. This cheesedick Rauf is one hell of a salesman. Perhaps he could find a useful occupation selling salmonella-tainted eggs or the Chevy Volt. Nobody wants those things anyway, so he could do little harm there.

Posted by: George Orwell at August 26, 2010 11:28 AM (AZGON)

45 As an aside, Kurt Vonnegut (yeah, I know) was a POW held at Dresden during the bombing and was forced to help in cleaning up the aftermath. This was the basis for his book Slaughterhouse Five, which was the camp he was held in.
Yeah he's the cowardly Billy Pilgram character from the book.
If you were anti war in the second world war, then you are a total douche.
Even Bertrand Russel who was normally anti-war, didn't go that far.

Posted by: Ben at August 26, 2010 11:30 AM (wuv1c)

46
The West must have started that one too.

We did. Who do you think supplied arms to Iraq?

Posted by: stupid typical fucking moonbat© at August 26, 2010 11:30 AM (uFokq)

47 The chance we'll built this piece of shit?

Zero.

Louis Coletti, president of the Building Trades Employers’ Association,
said unions have not yet taken a “formal position” on Park51, but he
understands why members would be hesitant to work there.

Posted by: Louie at August 26, 2010 11:30 AM (vSiVD)

48 If the U.S. government is responsible for Saddam Hussein's decision to divert "oil for food" money away from Shiite children toward palaces, resorts, sports complexes, communications networks, etc.

Then the Sierra Club is responsible for the millions of deaths of children and pregnant women, many Muslims, which followed the banning of DDT.

Posted by: CKT at August 26, 2010 11:31 AM (UtkVC)

49 i'm actually glad he brought up the fire-bombings and not nuking j-town, mainly because people get more stupid about nukes, like they were racist or something. but even if you say that firebombing population centers was terrorism, that's no excuse tothen use terrorist attacks; he's arguing an eye for an eye. the thing about thet though is that it sets up a vicious cycle, the imam is arguing that since radical islamists have done so many terror attacks in the past few decades, it justifies our kicking some middle eastern ass.

Posted by: dudeinsantacruz at August 26, 2010 11:32 AM (LSYoM)

50 Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.

Number one for the three hundred first consecutive week on "This Week in Batshit Insane Hamas Stuff."

Remember the guy that wrote that is Hamas' Thomas Jefferson.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 11:32 AM (NvFZs)

51 48
The chance we'll built this piece of shit?

Zero.

Louis Coletti, president of the Building Trades Employers’ Association,
said unions have not yet taken a “formal position” on Park51, but he
understands why members would be hesitant to work there.


Posted by: Louie at August 26, 2010 11:30 AM (vSiVD)
Unless they invoke sharia-compliant unions.

Posted by: Radioactive Satellite Of LOVE at August 26, 2010 11:32 AM (LdYLm)

52 OT from zerohedge (top story)

Court Decision - Spanish Tax Agency Has to Repay €5.1Bn to Taxpayers At
13:30, El Economista reported that a Court has determined the way the
Spanish Tax Agency was collecting VAT revenues (over the 2006-08 period)
was “illegal” and, therefore, it now owes €5.1Bn to taxpayers. This
decision cannot be appealed since the Court (TEAC – Tribunal Economico
Administrativo Central) is the highest within its jurisdiction.

That just makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Posted by: Methos at August 26, 2010 11:33 AM (Y9dgH)

53 Then the Sierra Club is responsible for the millions of deaths of children and pregnant women

So you're anti-abortion? Get out of my body! HATER!

Posted by: average moonbat at August 26, 2010 11:33 AM (AZGON)

54 The West must have started that one too.

Actually, yes--when Jimmah threw the Shah under the bus. And everything has gone so well since then.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 11:34 AM (NvFZs)

55 We should just fess up, yeah, you're right. We're evil and it's all our fault. Then bomb back to the Stone Age, which would be about 1:25 yesterday afternoon.

Posted by: bigred at August 26, 2010 11:35 AM (cX9pO)

56 The West must have started that one too.We did. Who do you think supplied arms to Iraq?
One of our best ideas. I miss Reagan's America.
You have to enemies fighting each other, so what do you do? You sell arms to both sides. Freaking genius.
Sure most of the arms were Russian weapons, but hey why let them have all the fun.


Posted by: Ben at August 26, 2010 11:35 AM (wuv1c)

57 i always thought it was ixne but I changed it.

Posted by: ace at August 26, 2010 11:35 AM (QbA6l)

58 Bomb their little black rock in Mecca, wait nine years, build church. Sounds like bridge building and tolerance to me.

Posted by: Thunderbirds Are Go at August 26, 2010 11:36 AM (J7yLU)

59 two not to

Posted by: Ben at August 26, 2010 11:37 AM (wuv1c)

60 But if we were as evil as Rauf believes we are, wouldn't we have never let the plans for the GZM even been filed? The Community Board would have denied its approval and the Mayor would be denouncing it. Yet, this is not the case.

Posted by: Penfold at August 26, 2010 11:37 AM (1PeEC)

61 COLOMBO (Reuters) – A Saudi couple tortured their Sri Lankan maid after
she complained of a too heavy workload by hammering 24 nails into her
hands, legs and forehead, officials said on Thursday.

Yep, the religion of peace...

Posted by: Radioactive Satellite Of LOVE at August 26, 2010 11:37 AM (LdYLm)

62
You wingnuts better pray to your precious bible that Jimmy Carter doesn't get taken hostage in North Korea.

Because of your hero George Bush, North Korea hates us, now.

Posted by: stupid typical fucking moonbat© at August 26, 2010 11:38 AM (uFokq)

63 So he has basically the same bullshit views as the leftist moonbats here and in Europe. No wonder they're all four-square behind him.

Posted by: Chainsaw Chimp at August 26, 2010 11:38 AM (pLTLS)

64 So his claim is, once again, that Islam isn't doing anything the US isn't doing, and that it's unfair to make a big deal out of Islam's terror.

So to make stuff all evenses and fair, let's ram two robotically piloted KC-130s stuffed with kerosene into the Burj Dubai and call it settled. M'kay, Rauf? And no whining when we put up a museum to American military power on the site of the wreckage. And a Hooters, too. Perhaps a kennel as well, and a pork abbatoir.

Posted by: George Orwell at August 26, 2010 11:38 AM (AZGON)

65 The problem is it's an asymmetrical version of Total War, they're mobilizing everything under their control, and we're fighting with both arms and a leg behind our back, with a blindfold, wielding a pillow, and dressed in bathrobes. (I would have made a comment about wode, but that would constitute in improvement.)

If we ever got it into our heads to simply go all out and eradicate them (y'know, like they accuse us of doing, except for real), I suspect they wouldn't survive the decade, except in places like Afghanistan where it's just too much bother to go in and kill every man, woman, child, and goat. But we don't, for a mixture of reasons.

Posted by: DarkLordOfTheIntarWebs at August 26, 2010 11:38 AM (IkEhE)

66 63

You wingnuts better pray to your precious bible that Jimmy Carter doesn't get taken hostage in North Korea.

Because of your hero George Bush, North Korea hates us, now.


Posted by: stupid typical fucking moonbat© at August 26, 2010 11:38 AM (uFokq)
Norks, your should read "The Ransom of Red Chief"

Posted by: Radioactive Satellite Of LOVE at August 26, 2010 11:39 AM (LdYLm)

67 Then the Sierra Club is responsible for the millions of deaths of children and pregnant women, many Muslims, which followed the banning of DDT.
hey, DDT caused some bad things...like...um...
they were stupid to get it banned on a personal/organizational level though. lobbyists should never try to get legislation passed because it means they're out of a job. the smart lobbyist just keeps teh pressure up enough to get paid, but not enough to do anything.

Posted by: dudeinsantacruz at August 26, 2010 11:39 AM (LSYoM)

68 You wingnuts better pray to your precious bible that Jimmy Carter doesn't get taken hostage in North Korea.

I'll take things that would max out the unintentional comedy scale for $800, Alex.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 11:39 AM (NvFZs)

69 The argument that terrorism is a legitimate tactic of war because the United States sometimes does it is idiotic.

Besides, as you guys made clear to me the other day, it is never terrorism or murder when the United States targets innocent civilians, it is military necessity. I wonder if the Islamist wackos think similarly about their tactics. "Others have excuses, I have my reasons why..."


"He seems to ignore the part where sanctions are not in fact warfare at
all, and can be legitimate, which is not even remotely true in the case
of terrorism -- in that case, civilian casualties are not an
unfortunate, unavoidable consequence of a military action, but in fact
the whole point."

A blockade is an act of war. What are sanctions but another form of blockade?


"His claim that 1,000,000 Iraqis died due to sanctions is, of course,
purely crank, the product of overheated leftist imaginations and Muslim
eagerness for any grievances that can justify their murderous terrorism."

How many did die? You dismiss this too quickly. It still is relevant if only, say, 400,000 died.

Does anyone ever have legitimate grievances against the U.S.? (Not saying that their terrorist attacks are justified, but that they do attack us for reasons other than the absurd "freedom" reason often cited).



Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 11:40 AM (/Mtjv)

70 I am so torn up about the Krapistani flood. We should send them all our eggs.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at August 26, 2010 11:40 AM (9cflz)

71 How much do we have to pay the Norks to keep him?

Posted by: Penfold at August 26, 2010 11:40 AM (1PeEC)

72

Hating President Carter is unpatriotic.

Posted by: stupid typical fucking moonbat© at August 26, 2010 11:41 AM (uFokq)

73 You wingnuts better pray to your precious bible that Jimmy Carter doesn't get taken hostage in North Korea.


You mean they'll send him back if we don't pay?

Oh shit.

Posted by: George Orwell at August 26, 2010 11:41 AM (AZGON)

74 I sure hope that Dhimmi Carter is not taken hostage by the Norks. Dom Perrignon is expensive.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at August 26, 2010 11:42 AM (9cflz)

75 The Religion of Purpetual Outrage.

Posted by: Bosk at August 26, 2010 11:42 AM (pUO5u)

76
We are to blame for everyting. While human trafficking takes place all over the world in places like Russia, the "stans" [Kazakhstan, Tajikistan etc...] and Africa. While political and religious freedoms are stomped-on in places like Audi Arabia, Iran, and Cuba, (Cuba: where political dissenters still rot in prison)....

President Obama: In bed with the creepy Orwellian ethos at the UN.

Posted by: Lemon Kitten at August 26, 2010 11:43 AM (0fzsA)

77 voting for obama was unpatriotic

Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 26, 2010 11:43 AM (rr5XB)

78 Mr. Rauf, meet apples.

Mr. Rauf, meet oranges.

Posted by: MJ at August 26, 2010 11:44 AM (BKOsZ)

79 76

The Religion of Perpetual Goat Sex Outrage.

Posted by: Bosk at August 26, 2010 11:42 AM (pUO5u)
FIFY

Posted by: Radioactive Satellite Of LOVE at August 26, 2010 11:44 AM (LdYLm)

80
Hating president Carter is a natural and breathing and sex.

Posted by: Evil American Taliban - eeek be scared of differing opinions at August 26, 2010 11:44 AM (0fzsA)

81 The "one million dead" due to sanctions is useful. It breaks out to 50,000 children a year. After the invasion of Iraq sanctions were ended. Thus the invasion should be credited with saving 50,000 childrens' lives/year. Add that into the casualty numbers and we have the basis of a major humanitarian feat by the US.

Of course the islamoleft always ignores this simple math exercise because it creates a conundrum for them. Either they admit they were/are lying about the million deaths or they have to acknowledge that the Iraq invasion saved the lives of 7 yrs x 50,000/yr = 350,000 Iraqi childen.

Posted by: DaMav at August 26, 2010 11:44 AM (QNU76)

82
Incredible. The Imam's view on "terror" is the Democratic Platform almost word for word. Most libs are just too chickenshit to say it all at once. Well, in an election year, anyway.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at August 26, 2010 11:44 AM (nWc75)

83 Unless they invoke sharia-compliant unions.
I wonder how many union guys would swallow and build it just for work?

Posted by: dagny at August 26, 2010 11:44 AM (75Bwe)

84 OK, to repeat my comment from the headlines thread 'cause that's just the way I roll sometimes:

Collateral damage is a nice thing to put on a paper but when the
collateral damage is your own uncle or cousin, what passions do these
arouse? How do you negotiate? How do you tell people whose homes have
been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not
justify your actions of terrorism. It's hard. Yes, it is true that it
does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians, that does not
solve the problem, but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of
US support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in
the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention? - Imam Raufbat

Somehow,
I don't think his rule will be applied to the cab-riding drunk. Kinda
puts the Charles Johnsons of the world in a terrible tizzy, especially
now that the stabber's no longer a right-wing bigot.

Posted by: Bob Ebert at August 26, 2010 11:45 AM (xQjXM)

85 Rauf is right that war is terror. It's terror for the combatants and it's terror for civilians that are drawn into it. It isn't a video game and surgical airstrikes aren't all the surgical, although they are more so now. The terror, death and destruction is what brings wars to an end.
What Rauf seems to be saying is that we are at war with Islam and that Islam is at war with us so the gloves are off. If that's what he is saying and if we accept that then it won't turn out well for his side.

Posted by: robtr at August 26, 2010 11:45 AM (fwSHf)

86 A blockade is an act of war. What are sanctions but another form of blockade?

The two are different. Buy a dictionary.

How many did die? You dismiss this too quickly. It still is relevant if only, say, 400,000 died.

As the sanctions regime was a United Nations action--not a U.S. action, your argument is specious. In addition, the Oil for Food Program was intended to get basic necessities to the Iraqi people. Again, a U.N. action, not a U.S. program.

Saddam Hussein and his Baathist henchmen put Iraq on the road to ruin. I know you lefties have a hard time with the personal responsibility thing, Jim, but that's who you need answers from.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 11:45 AM (NvFZs)

87 I am really sick of this pastor Ralf motherfucker.

Posted by: Samuel Adams at August 26, 2010 11:46 AM (Jx0x6)

88 I feel confident, that with the erstwhile talents of the MFM openly aiding the Obama realm and who arehot after this investigation, that the trail for the source of terrorism will be found to be G.W. Bush.
Fortunately for us, we have Mike Bloomberg and Barry the Magnificent to reveal our deficient patriotism and racist tendencies and to let us know that this religion for which we have so little regard and which in its cannon revels in violence and murder against infidels (for which I must plead my guilt), is really a religion of tolerance and peace and that the the institutions of murder and violence so pronounced in its doctrine,are really just a guidelines andnot a hard and fast rules.
We are so fortunate...
and unworthy...
did I mention unworthy?

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at August 26, 2010 11:46 AM (RkRxq)

89 78
voting for obama was unpatriotic

Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 26, 2010 11:43 AM (rr5XB)
Voting for Obama was for:1. End of racial strife -> Fail2. Economic Recovery -> Fail3. Transparency -> Fail4. Ethics -> Fail

Posted by: Radioactive Satellite Of LOVE at August 26, 2010 11:46 AM (LdYLm)

90
The Imam's view on "terror" is the Democratic Platform almost word for word.


29%! + leftwingnut job bloggers.

Posted by: Lemon Kitten at August 26, 2010 11:46 AM (0fzsA)

91 I love all this talk about how the Noble Unions won't let the GZ mosque be built.

Yes, individual union members are patriotic and probably won't pick up their tools to build a monument to treason right in NYC, but the thugs who lead the unions will be dazzled by the money and be given cover by Bloomberg. They will find out that Barmy Bloomy will channel city contracts to supporters of his "tolerance" bullshit.

Right now, the pro-Muzzie weepers and wailers about "diversity" and advocates of unlimited Constitutional protection for the rights of mass-murderers are winning, people. The opposition is too fucking timid in the face of a flood of PC bullshit.

Someone in a position of authority needs to stand up and lead on this issue. And whoever it is must be unequivocal when doing so. Forget the "religion of peace" shit; it's time to say "no fucking mosque at Ground Zero, not now, not ever."

Rudy? Anyone?

Posted by: MrScribbler at August 26, 2010 11:47 AM (Ulu3i)

92 Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 11:40 AM (/Mtjv)

Shove your moral equivalence up the giant ass from which you pull "facts" about WWII, you clueless nutcase.

Posted by: Waterhouse at August 26, 2010 11:47 AM (ZJ9VU)

93 Dear Reader couldn't be bothered to answer any more questions about his support for the Muzzie Monument to Mass Murder...
...he just wanted to eat his shrimp

Posted by: beedubya at August 26, 2010 11:48 AM (AnTyA)

94 Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 11:40 AM (/Mtjv)

So you are saying we are at war with Islam?

You can't justify tactics as legitimate warfare tactics without the acknowledgment that we are at war. So let's get it on.

But, please, tell us more why 3000 people deserved to die at their desks on 9/11.

Please explain more the "legitimate grievances" that the Muslims had against America and the London Underground, and the Madrid train system and Bali night clubs and...

Please keep explaining to us why Cordoba House is exactly what we said it was.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 26, 2010 11:49 AM (T0NGe)

95 "A blockade is an act of war. What are sanctions but another form of blockade?

The two are different. Buy a dictionary."

How are they materially different? The mechanism of enforcement is different, as is the breadth of coverage, but they are both a denial of goods in order to punish a people and (ostensibly) the regime.

"As the sanctions regime was a United Nations action--not a U.S. action, your argument is specious. "

Who lead the charge for sanctions?

"I know you lefties have a hard time with the personal responsibility thing, Jim, but that's who you need answers from."

It's amazing what people will assume about a person's views from a few comments. I despise leftists and the welfare state. I align with the right on nearly everything, except in their love for the warfare state.





Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 11:49 AM (/Mtjv)

96 37
That guy doesn't know shit about Vonnegut!

Posted by: Thornton Melon at August 26, 2010 11:50 AM (0kz1r)

97 Posted by: DaMav at August 26, 2010 11:44 AM

Thanks for doing the math for us.

Posted by: aMesSNBC Statistics Staff at August 26, 2010 11:50 AM (xQjXM)

98 This is bullshit. The greatest country in the history of civilization is constantly being blamed and fucked in the ass by people who live here and think otherwise. I believe that in the history of modern civilization, there has never been a place where people of all different races, ethnic backgrounds, religious views, etc. can come to a place where they for the most part feel welcome. I am so fucking sick of this shit.

Posted by: Samuel Adams at August 26, 2010 11:51 AM (Jx0x6)

99 The majority of muslims make sure not to piss off the scariest people around. And that isn't the US, by any measure. Counterintuitive, there would be a lot more moderate muslims after we turned Mecca into dust.

Posted by: Cincinnatus at August 26, 2010 11:52 AM (6iT6P)

100 "But, please, tell us more why 3000 people deserved to die at their desks on 9/11.

Please
explain more the "legitimate grievances" that the Muslims had against
America and the London Underground, and the Madrid train system and Bali
night clubs and..."

I called them Islamist wackos and said their argument that "if they U.S. does it, it's legitimate if we do to" was idiotic. Why do you think that indicates approval of their acts of murder? But you guys seem to think the U.S. is like Jesus, incapable of sin. Nothing we do in warfare is ever not justified, nor an atrocity. Your overzealous nationalism blinds you to morality.







Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 11:52 AM (/Mtjv)

101
A blockade is an act of war. What are sanctions but another form of blockade?

Fact: the sanctions were the left's preferred "solution" to the invasion of Kuwait.

Fact: now the same class of douchebags who thought cutting off Saddam's supply of Cheezits would get him to let go of some of the richest oil fields in the world are claiming that their preferred solution is an act of war, because that lets them provide rhetorical support for jihadis.

(And it's odd that the same people who agitated for sanctions later tried to pin them solely on the United States, while blaming the sanctions for the "millions" of deaths. If sanctions truly killed millions, and the allied action during the Gulf War resulted in, at the outside, 10,000 civilian deaths, then the peaceniks' preferred solution is more than 100 times deadlier than going to war.

But consistency and logic are not particularly prized among the far-left anti-western clique. They depend on ignorance of history to let their contradictory arguments escape notice.)

Posted by: Rob Crawford at August 26, 2010 11:52 AM (ZJ/un)

102 Rudy? Anyone?

The loser in FL's GOP governor primary was interviewed on FNC a few days ago and Rudy was with him campaigning. The mosque came up and it seemed Rudy was against it, though it'd be nice if he was more outspoken about it.

Posted by: Methos at August 26, 2010 11:53 AM (Y9dgH)

103 Counterintuitive, there would be a lot more moderate muslims after we turned Mecca into dust.

I think that there would be almost no Muslims.

Think about it, the "great prophet" couldn't see that coming?

Posted by: AmishDude at August 26, 2010 11:53 AM (T0NGe)

104 "It's amazing what people will assume about a person's views from a few
comments. I despise leftists and the welfare state. I align with the
right on nearly everything, except in their love for the warfare state."

Are you also a concerned christian conservative?

Posted by: Gaff at August 26, 2010 11:53 AM (jDWYv)

105 Samuel Adams, to quote Reagan:
"What a shame it would be for history to show that the people who had the most to lose did the least to save their country".

Posted by: Cincinnatus at August 26, 2010 11:54 AM (6iT6P)

106
...but that they do attack us for reasons other than the absurd "freedom" reason often cited

Jim is right: freedom is absurd. We have no business stomping around the world in our jackboots imposing our way of life and building McDonald's restaurants.

Posted by: stupid typical fucking moonbat© at August 26, 2010 11:55 AM (uFokq)

107 I align with the right on nearly everything, except in their love for the warfare state.

In other words...Ron Paul!!!!eleventy!!!!

Posted by: Methos at August 26, 2010 11:55 AM (Y9dgH)

108 Don't forget: the sanctions could have been ended at any time by Saddam Hussein.

Posted by: Anachronda at August 26, 2010 11:55 AM (xGZ+b)

109 'A blockade is an act of war. What are sanctions but another form of blockade?

Fact: the sanctions were the left's preferred "solution" to the invasion of Kuwait.'

Quite true, but I am not a leftist.

At the time I was gung-ho for war, the same as in 2003.

Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 11:56 AM (/Mtjv)

110 What we really need is internment camps for all the Joos.

Posted by: Ron Paul at August 26, 2010 11:56 AM (9cflz)

111 What a shame it would be for history to show that the people who had the most to lose did the least to save their country".

Posted by: Cincinnatus at August 26, 2010 11:54 AM (6iT6P)

You know, it's funny. I joined the military in '82 at the height of the Reagan military buildup, and I did not appreciate the man until the 90's. Man, I hated being young and stupid.

Posted by: Samuel Adams at August 26, 2010 11:56 AM (Jx0x6)

112 "It's amazing what people will assume about a person's views from a few
comments. I despise leftists and the welfare state. I align with the
right on nearly everything, except in their love for the warfare state."

your "concern" is touching

Posted by: Unclefacts, AoSHQ Pro Debate Team, Bacon Raconteur at August 26, 2010 11:57 AM (eCAn3)

113 Nothing we do in warfare is ever not justified, nor an atrocity. Your overzealous nationalism blinds you to morality.
-----------------------
They kicked us in the face, and now you'd like to review the various aspects of the ass kicking that was delivered in response. Yep, bad shit happens in war. Congrats for figuring that out.

Posted by: MJ at August 26, 2010 11:57 AM (BKOsZ)

114 I shall ban this bigot...
Oh, wait.
You are banned for pointing his bigotry out.

Posted by: Charles Johnson, Welfare Queen at August 26, 2010 11:57 AM (v1cQf)

115 Why do you think that indicates approval of their acts of murder?

Why would you even bring that up, in the context of the 9/11 attacks?

Because you're a moral-equivalence-peddling fuckwad, that's why.

Posted by: Waterhouse at August 26, 2010 11:57 AM (ZJ9VU)

116 Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 11:40 AM (/Mtjv)
We gotta tell Ace we need some smarter trolls.
Listen you dumbass misanthrope...Sodamn Insane is responsible for the deaths of over a million...most of them Muslim.
...and he is responsible for the deaths of the 400,000 Iraqi children becuase he fucking stole the food that Iraq was provided during the time we and the fucking UN had imposed a trade embargo..
..oh yeah..and the fucking leftards Kofi Annan, his boy Kojo, Jacques Chirac. Bubba Clinton's buddy Marc Rich ...and a scores of other corrupt fucking leftards fucked everyone over and made themselves wealthy by illegally tradingoil outsidethe Oil for Food Program

Posted by: beedubya at August 26, 2010 11:57 AM (AnTyA)

117 The sanctions killing people is leftist bullshit. There was an oil for food and medicine program to feed Iraq'a population.
That money instead of going for food was split between Sadamm and the crimminals at the UN.

Posted by: robtr at August 26, 2010 11:58 AM (fwSHf)

118 I align with the right nearly on everything, but I sit here this morning navigating your site with my Ronald Reagan mousepad and am outraged by the tone and tactics the frightwingers here are using.

Posted by: Jimmy Concernedo (R) at August 26, 2010 11:58 AM (nWc75)

119 How are they materially different? The mechanism of enforcement is
different, as is the breadth of coverage, but they are both a denial of
goods in order to punish a people and (ostensibly) the regime.

Sanction: International law-- action by one or more states toward another state calculated to force it to comply with legal obligations.
Blockade: International law-- The actual investment of a port or place by a
hostile force fully competent to cut off all communication therewith, so
arranged or disposed as to be able to apply its force to every point of
practicable access or approach to the port or place so invested.

The differences are readily apparent, Jim.

What I assume from your comments is that you are reflexively anti-American in your worldviews and are infested with the same sort of moral equivalency virus that infects the left. Intellectual dishonesty that either wilfully ignores history and/or accepted international legal definitions is weak tea anywhere, but if you want to peddle it here, you better do some more reading.




Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 11:59 AM (NvFZs)

120 16 And the firebombing of Tokyo taught the world a valuable lesson, don't build everything out of wood.______________
So... not only is America a terrorist organization, it's an eco-terrorist organization?

Posted by: Anachronda at August 26, 2010 11:59 AM (xGZ+b)

121 Thorton, where am I wrong? (hint, wikipedia is your friend)

Posted by: bigred at August 26, 2010 11:59 AM (cX9pO)

122 Muslim tactics of beheading the occasional goat westerner is, in fact, humane, because think of all the lives that are saved without all-out warfare.

Posted by: Rockin Rauf at August 26, 2010 11:59 AM (gbCNS)

123 Rauf is well named...i am ready to RAUF each time I hear of his latest "Hate meets West "concoctions of absurb theater.

Posted by: ford sells volts at August 26, 2010 11:59 AM (Ki7fm)

124 96
"A blockade is an act of war. What are sanctions but another form of blockade?The two are different. Buy a dictionary."How
are they materially different? The mechanism of enforcement is
different, as is the breadth of coverage, but they are both a denial of
goods in order to punish a people and (ostensibly) the regime.

So.... when a union pickets a company and tries to prevent it from doing business, it is a war? When the IRS garnishes your wages for whatever reason, it is an act of war?

Part of what you miss is that war, at least for the US, has a predicate, a preceding act of aggression, which justifies it. A good war is the term of art. People can disagree on the criteria, but the common thread is to examine the context in which war was declared, i.e., was it provoked, and is the successful prosecution justified and the damage done proportional to the initial aggressive act. Our feelings were hurt because we haven't done so well on the international scene for the last millenium doesn't fit the bill.


Posted by: pep at August 26, 2010 11:59 AM (YXmuI)

125 I think Jim is "receiving" stimulus funds.

Posted by: ford sells volts at August 26, 2010 12:00 PM (Ki7fm)

126 "Sanction: International law-- action by one or more states toward another state calculated to force it to comply with legal obligations.
Blockade: International law-- The actual investment of a port or place by a
hostile force fully competent to cut off all communication therewith, so
arranged or disposed as to be able to apply its force to every point of
practicable access or approach to the port or place so invested.

The differences are readily apparent, Jim."

Your definitions are just a restatement of what I said (in bold below):
"The mechanism of enforcement is
different, as is the breadth of coverage, but they are both a denial of
goods in order to punish a people and (ostensibly) the regime."

Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 12:01 PM (/Mtjv)

127
Jim don't forget to let these zealous wingnuts know how much our support of Israel is causing most of the violence in the Middle East.

Posted by: stupid typical fucking moonbat© at August 26, 2010 12:01 PM (uFokq)

128 Quite true, but I am not a leftist.

Did I say you were?

Douchebag.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at August 26, 2010 12:02 PM (ZJ/un)

129 Rauf equivicates, not because Dresden is bad, but because 9/11 was good, to him.
This 9/11 memorial he's planning to build inside the mosque will surely have 19 stars on it, or something like that.

Posted by: Cincinnatus at August 26, 2010 12:02 PM (6iT6P)

130 I agree with the right on nearly everything, except one of the most basic functions of government, namely national security, which is icky because it makes me choose between my country and a gang of medieval nose-slicing barbarian fuckjobs.

Posted by: Jimmy the Dhimmi at August 26, 2010 12:02 PM (ZJ9VU)

131 The definition of terrorism is hotly hotly debated. My personal favorite is that it is actions by a non-state actor against non-combatants.

If it is a state doing the terrorizing, it is an act of war.
If it is targeted at only military personnel, it is still war.

By this definition the US can not engage in terrorism. They can support terrorism, much as Iran does, but there has to be a third party and plausible deniability or it war.

I find no other definition logically coherent.

Posted by: nine coconuts at August 26, 2010 12:03 PM (DHNp4)

132 It's amazing what people will assume about a person's views from a few comments. I despise leftists and the welfare state. I align with the right on nearly everything, except in their love for the warfare state.

Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 11:49 AM (/Mtjv)

Paulista. "Warfare state" is a dead giveaway.

Posted by: joncelli at August 26, 2010 12:04 PM (RD7QR)

133 I align with the right on nearly everything, except in their love for the warfare state.

What fucking warfare state? When did the USA arbitrarily engage in warfare that did not involve some kind of protection against people who were being oppressed? I mean at least since the start of the 20th century. For the most part, we have always been on the side of rights and freedoms. Sometimes we did not prosecute it properly, but we never subjugated those we warred against. Fucking Germany, Japan, and Italy are doing pretty good thanks to us. Oh did I mention, South Korea is also on the list of one of the most advanced countries in the world. And, last time I checked, Iraq is the only Muslim dominated Democracy in the world.

Posted by: Samuel Adams at August 26, 2010 12:04 PM (Jx0x6)

134 At the time I was gung-ho for war, the same as in 2003.

But, apparently, not 2001.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at August 26, 2010 12:04 PM (ZJ/un)

135 Your definitions are just a restatement of what I said (in bold below):
"The mechanism of enforcement is
different, as is the breadth of coverage, but they are both a denial of
goods in order to punish a people and (ostensibly) the regime."

That was not a restatement, Jim. There are clear legal concepts behind each definition--rafts of scholarship accompany those definitions. If you are ignoring the differences, you are either an intellectual coward, lazy or both.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 12:05 PM (NvFZs)

136 Paulista. "Warfare state" is a dead giveaway.

Thank you. You know, for all of the small government stuff they claim to believe in, it's the anti-war and pro-drug stuff that really animates them.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 26, 2010 12:06 PM (T0NGe)

137 "At the time I was gung-ho for war, the same as in 2003.

But, apparently, not 2001."

Even more so, but the context of my statement was Iraq. I still think they deserved their ass-kicking in 2001, but our stay in Afghanistan has gone on too long, and the objectives are all wrong.

Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 12:06 PM (/Mtjv)

138 Paulistinians. I fuckin hate Paulistinians.

Posted by: Unclefacts, AoSHQ Pro Debate Team, Bacon Raconteur at August 26, 2010 12:06 PM (eCAn3)

139 I agree with the right on nearly everything, except one of the most
basic functions of government, namely national security, which is icky
because it makes me choose between my country and a gang of medieval
nose-slicing barbarian fuckjobs.

Posted by: Jimmy the Dhimmi at August 26, 2010 12:02 PM (ZJ9VU)

And that's a bingo.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at August 26, 2010 12:06 PM (nWc75)

140 Nothing we do in warfare is ever not justified, nor an atrocity. Your overzealous nationalism blinds you to morality.
So, the fact that we have a good reason for spending huge gobs of money and many lives is actually a clever and diabolical ruse?

Here's a question for you, Jim. If this was about oil, why didn't we just hang on to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia (and Iraq for that matter) in 1991? True, you didn't say it was about oil, but if not, then what? Sheer bloody mindedness, you patriot, you.

Posted by: pep at August 26, 2010 12:07 PM (YXmuI)

141 "Thank you. You know, for all of the small government stuff they claim
to believe in, it's the anti-war...stuff that really animates
them."

Because "War is the health of the state". You can never have a small, non-intrusive government with low taxes when you have a humongous military and constant war.

Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 12:08 PM (/Mtjv)

142 Here's a question for you, Jim. If this was about oil, why didn't we
just hang on to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia (and Iraq for that matter) in
1991? True, you didn't say it was about oil, but if not, then what?
Sheer bloody mindedness, you patriot, you.
Screw that--why haven't we just sailed in and taken Equatorial Guinea--waaaaaay easier.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 12:08 PM (NvFZs)

143 Because "War is the health of the state". You can never have a small, non-intrusive government with low taxes when you have a humongous military and constant war.



Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 12:08 PM (/Mtjv)

definitely a fuckin Paulistinian.

Posted by: Unclefacts, AoSHQ Pro Debate Team, Bacon Raconteur at August 26, 2010 12:08 PM (eCAn3)

144 ????????????????????

Posted by: pep at August 26, 2010 12:09 PM (YXmuI)

145 The definition of terrorism is hotly hotly debated. My personal favorite
is that it is actions by a non-state actor against non-combatants.If it is a state doing the terrorizing, it is an act of war.

If it is targeted at only military personnel, it is still war.


Excellent.

Also, the deliberate targeting of civilians, either by order or by failing to punish the deliberate targeting of civilians, is a war crime.

Mixing with or posing as civilians in an attempt to conceal yourself or to induce the opposing forces into firing on civilians is also a war crime.

These definitions are all pretty simple and sensible. They do not, however, let the lunatics excuse the murder of Americans, so they don't get cited too often.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at August 26, 2010 12:09 PM (ZJ/un)

146 Because "War is the health of the state". You can never have a small,
non-intrusive government with low taxes when you have a humongous
military and constant war.

No, really, what does that gibberish mean?

Posted by: pep at August 26, 2010 12:10 PM (YXmuI)

147 Because "War is the health of the state". You can never have a small,
non-intrusive government with low taxes when you have a humongous
military and constant war.

Humongous military. Half the size of thirty years ago and less than 4.5% of GDP.

Try again.


Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 12:10 PM (NvFZs)

148 in the bombing campaign in europe, the USAAF bombed from higher altitudes in daylight raids using HE bombs rather than incendiaries, the brits bombed at night and used incendiaries when they bombed dresden. in europe , they tried to minimize collateral damage, but bombing wasn't very accurate despite the use of the norden bombsight .

in the bombing campaign in japan, they used the b-29's and they did not have much success at using the same bombing tactics they did in europe. eventually they didn't really make any attempt at minimizing collateral damage, the idea was to destroy whole cities by fire.

i think there were some cities fire bombed in japan in wwII where casualties were as high as they were during the hiroshima and nagasaki.

ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm) KEY

NOUN:
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

is war terror ?

i would say that one of the aims of bombing was to demoralize the civilian population, it could be argued that the bombing campaign was an act of terror if you go by this definition. i would argue that there is a a difference in bombing a civilian population whole scale than in aiming for strategic targets and trying to minimize civilian casualties. not saying the fire bombing of japanese cities or the use of atomic weapons was not justified, just saying that it could be considered an act or terrorism. the real question i think is, when if ever is terrorism justified.

Posted by: joan at August 26, 2010 12:10 PM (RGWY2)

149 RON PAUL SAYS RON PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Fucking Bob Dole at August 26, 2010 12:11 PM (Jx0x6)

150 Anyone waiting for Rauf to denounce Hamas better find something else to wait on. It ain't gonna happen and even if he does make some mild statements of condemnation he won't mean it.
Hamas is a creation of the Muslim Brotherhood just like al Qaeda and countless other Islamic jihad groups. Rauf's dad was a contemporary andprofessor at Al Azhar University in Egyptwith Hassan al Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood. He left Egypt in 1948 when the Egyptian government started cracking down on the MB and went to Kuwait where the younger Rauf was born and then on to Malaysia where he became a cohort of Mahathir Mohamad, the virulent anti-semite and pro-Sharia Prime Minister. Then on to NYC where he founded the Islamic Cultural Center which got mysterious funding from Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Libya to name a few. To this day, the exact names of the funders have been kept secret but the place has been home to Muslim Brotherhood affiliated nut jobs for decades.
If that isn't enough to convince you, take a good hard look at Yusaf al-Qaradawi, yet another Egyptian who was forced to flee Egypt (he has been harbored by Qatar for years) who is now the spirtual head of the Muslim Brotherhood, a close friend of Rauf's, and who was a founding member of the al Taqwa Bank which in addition to funding Islamic building projects (mosques, etc.) around the worldhas been identified by the FBI as one of the largerst funders of al Qaeda and other terror groups.
These dickheads are a lot more interested in blowing up bridges than they are building them.

Posted by: JackStraw at August 26, 2010 12:11 PM (VW9/y)

151 Didn't you get my memo about war being hell?

Posted by: William T. Sherman at August 26, 2010 12:12 PM (xxgag)

152 No, really, what does that gibberish mean?
Posted by: pep at August 26, 2010 12:10 PM (YXmuI)
Forget it...he's on a roll

Posted by: beedubya at August 26, 2010 12:12 PM (AnTyA)

153
No, really, what does that gibberish mean?

That he just started sophomore year and read some Paulista crap over the summer. Probably from a leaflet that was crammed into a bong.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at August 26, 2010 12:13 PM (ZJ/un)

154 58
i always thought it was ixne but I changed it.

Posted by: ace at August 26, 2010 11:35 AM (QbA6l)
Actually, why not use the original ichtsnay (nichts)?

Posted by: Pedant at August 26, 2010 12:13 PM (IzuWw)

155 "Humongous military. Half the size of thirty years ago and less than 4.5% of GDP.

Try again."

We spend more on military than most of the rest of the world combined. Our forces are in vastly more countries than the Roman Empire or any other empire ever was. We need only a fraction of that number to actually defend the U.S. (as opposed to all the other stuff our forces engage in).

What percentage of the federal budget is taken up by "defense" expenditures?


Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 12:13 PM (/Mtjv)

156 Because "War is the health of the state". You can never have a small, non-intrusive government with low taxes when you have a humongous military and constant war.
Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 12:08 PM (/Mtjv)
You can't have a free country without a strong military Jim. That's just the way the world is. We should be taxing Europe for keeping those pricks free.
We wouldn't be a war if there wasn't a reason. We are definitely not doing it because we're Imperialists or whatever label you want to put on us. Don't start no war and there won't be no war.

Posted by: robtr at August 26, 2010 12:13 PM (fwSHf)

157 In thge near future, the Imperial Security Bureau will have a great interest in the imam.

Posted by: SGT Dan at August 26, 2010 12:15 PM (GgXZc)

158 We need only a fraction of that number to actually defend the U.S. (as opposed to all the other stuff our forces engage in).

Define that.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 12:16 PM (NvFZs)

159 Kurt Vonnegut
Pvt. 423 Inf. Reg. captured during Battle of the Bulge, 1944. POW held at Dresden, witnessed firebombing of Feb. 1945. Survived becaused he was in a meat locker at a meat packing plant Germans called Slaughterhouse Five. Was forced to help in cleanup after the raid. Was the basis for novel Slaughterhouse Five and figured in another half dozen of his books. Unless wiki is totally full of crap, and Vonnegut, too, as I read an article of his about this about 40 years ago.

Posted by: bigred at August 26, 2010 12:16 PM (cX9pO)

160 In fact,most acts of terrorists, such as using their own women and children as shields and indiscriminate kiling of civlilians only violateALL previous standards of warfare, even those ascribed to by barbarian tribes andlawless, stateless warriors (brigands and pirates and such).
Meanwhile, executing such individuals, far from being barbarism,was the standard practice of all previous civilizations. You can bedamn sure that any Christian terrorist commiting an act of terrorism in a Muslim country would be immediatetly br tossed to a howling mob upon apprehension.
So to make some equivalence betweenthe universally reviled tactics of terrorists and the candy ass rules of warfare of modern times, which would have been smirked at by all previous civilizations is to engage in a lunacy that is many quantum leaps greater than any previous lunacy.

Posted by: Call me Lennie at August 26, 2010 12:16 PM (GOsSG)

161 We spend more on military than most of the rest of
the world combined. Our forces are in vastly more countries than the
Roman Empire or any other empire ever was. We need only a fraction of
that number to actually defend the U.S. (as opposed to all the other
stuff our forces engage in).

What percentage of the federal budget is taken up by "defense" expenditures?




Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 12:13 PM (/Mtjv)

Who else will pick up the fucking slack? Hey, I'm all for leaving Europe and saving the money there, but who is going to pick up the slack? No offense Jim, but there are some nations out there who would love it if the US decided to pack up and become an isolationist nation. And people who think that the US should pack up and leave are really fucking stupid. We, the United States of America, are the ones keeping the barbarians at the gate. Don't believe me, research your history.

Posted by: Fucking Bob Dole at August 26, 2010 12:17 PM (Jx0x6)

162 What percentage of the federal budget is taken up by "defense" expenditures?




Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 12:13 PM (/Mtjv)

Not nearly enough for this warmonger! BTW, Ron Paul is a fucking kook, and so are his followers.

Posted by: Unclefacts, AoSHQ Pro Debate Team, Bacon Raconteur at August 26, 2010 12:17 PM (eCAn3)

163 How are they materially different?

ah yes, that whole "nuance" thing

Posted by: The Great Satan's Ghost at August 26, 2010 12:19 PM (V9CyJ)

164 Fucking sock.

Posted by: Samuel Adams at August 26, 2010 12:19 PM (Jx0x6)

165 Sarah Palin is a terrorist. She must be because she scares the hell out of the Democrats.

Posted by: WalrusRex at August 26, 2010 12:20 PM (xxgag)

166 Oh and by the by, on August 2nd of this year, the al Taqwa bank was removed from the list of terrorism supporters by the UN Security Council.
I'm sure it's all just another big coincidence.

Posted by: JackStraw at August 26, 2010 12:21 PM (VW9/y)

167 Definitely a Joo hating Paulophile. Ask her about chem trails.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at August 26, 2010 12:21 PM (9cflz)

168 Is anyone going to research the possible financial ties that Bloomberg has with the Middle East, that is making him such a whore to this whole mosk bullshit?

Posted by: Samuel Adams at August 26, 2010 12:21 PM (Jx0x6)

169 What percentage of the federal budget is taken up by "defense" expenditures?

As the money wasted on Medicare, Medicaid, and Solcial Security is about half the budget, I'm guessing less than that.

Posted by: Methos at August 26, 2010 12:22 PM (Y9dgH)

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Posted by: Radioactive Satellite Of LOVE at August 26, 2010 11:46 AM (LdYLm)
FIFY

Posted by: NM Hick at August 26, 2010 12:23 PM (IzuWw)

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Posted by: Truck Monkey at August 26, 2010 12:24 PM (yQWNf)

172 We spend more on military than most of the rest of
the world combined.

So that automatically means it's "too much"? US forces were stretched almost too far to do the job in Iraq and Afstan, for which you claim to have been all gung-ho, and yet they're still too big?

Make up your mind, fuckrag.

Posted by: Waterhouse at August 26, 2010 12:24 PM (ZJ9VU)

173 163 What percentage of the federal budget is taken up by "defense" expenditures?
Posted by: Jim at August 26, 2010 12:13 PM (/Mtjv)
That's the point you're making?? Goddamn it..better trolls..now!!
That's the fucking purpose of a governmenmt...that and goddamned infrastructure and emergency services
...not to mention the incidental multiplier effect on the economy is fucking hugely exponential

Posted by: beedubya at August 26, 2010 12:25 PM (AnTyA)

174 Ron Paul is the new Lyndon LaRouche.

At least the LaRouchies are occasionally funny. The Paultards are dense as bricks.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 12:26 PM (NvFZs)

175 We are not spending enough on defense. The southern border is wide open.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at August 26, 2010 12:26 PM (9cflz)

176 Also. most nations of Europe would feel very uncomfortable with Germany having an army large enough to defend itself against the Russians. But then again, they're probably just paranoid bigots or something.

Posted by: bigred at August 26, 2010 12:26 PM (cX9pO)

177 Ron Paul is the new Lyndon LaRouche.

Ron Paul couldn't wipe a fellow Texan's ass properly, just ask the former idiot president Lyndon Johnson.

Posted by: Samuel Adams at August 26, 2010 12:26 PM (Jx0x6)

178 ww2 was a total war . the german , japanese and american economies were almost entirely dedicated to waging war. it was as if everyone was at war either in the actual fight or in producing weapons and material for the war effort. the consequences of losing the war for the allies would have been worst than slavery. the war effort on both sides was all out. there were really were no civilians.

Posted by: joan at August 26, 2010 12:27 PM (RGWY2)

179 Nothing about BigFoot, unicorns, or thermite?

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at August 26, 2010 12:27 PM (9cflz)

180 Yeah, if there's one thing this country needs less of, it's Defense.
Get a grip.

Posted by: Lincolntf at August 26, 2010 12:30 PM (h6kb0)

181 Joan, very true. My mother spent the summer of '45 washing rocket parts at West Bend Aluminum. She wasn't old enough to work before that. She remembers when Japan surrendered they were told not to come into work the next day.

Posted by: bigred at August 26, 2010 12:34 PM (cX9pO)

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Posted by: Depressa Brewer at August 26, 2010 12:36 PM (xQjXM)

183 i can't say then that targetting the civilian population is never justified. i think it depends on the threat and what your alternatives are.

Posted by: joan at August 26, 2010 12:37 PM (RGWY2)

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Posted by: A. LaRouchie at August 26, 2010 12:40 PM (9Sbz+)

185 LaRouche rhymes with douche. what are the odds ?

Posted by: joan at August 26, 2010 12:41 PM (RGWY2)

186 Voting for Obama was for:1. End of racial strife -> Fail2. Economic Recovery -> Fail3. Transparency -> Fail4. Ethics -> Fail5. Profit for Unions -> Win

6. Bipartisanship-> Fail

Posted by: WalrusRex at August 26, 2010 12:42 PM (xxgag)

187 September 11, 2001 was all the muslim outreach I needed. This taxpayer funded terrorist sympathiser Rauf and all the MFM need to SDASTFU. Calling the whole country bigots after they voted for a black president WITH A MUSLIM NAME is just plain fucking stupid.

Posted by: Schwalbe at August 26, 2010 12:42 PM (UU0OF)

188 We wouldn't have this problem if the Crusades had worked.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 26, 2010 11:22 AM (NvFZs)
If the French and Germans had their acts together...Seriously, in the King's Crusade, the German Emperor managed to drown himself in a river, and the French King managed to be a big wuss.
The English though fought their way to Jerusalem.

Posted by: 18-1 at August 26, 2010 12:56 PM (7BU4a)

189 ww2 was a total war . the german , japanese and american economies were almost entirely dedicated to waging war. i

One of the interesting things on the German side is they did not convert to a total war economy until 42 or 43. They thought they could merely supplement their normal industrial base with slave labor.

Obviously, as Allied production dwarfed them this proved to be incorrect.

Posted by: 18-1 at August 26, 2010 01:02 PM (7BU4a)

190 They thought they could merely supplement their normal industrial base with slave labor.

if the nazis had not been so cruel and had they not engaged in genocidal acts against the Russian people, they may well have not resisted perhaps they would have seen the nazis as saviors from stalinism. the nazis made many mistakes. i do think good always conquers in the end and there is a reason.

Posted by: joan at August 26, 2010 01:07 PM (RGWY2)

191 #190, Germany's problem is simple. They're the small drunk guy at the end of the bar at closing time. They've had enough tequila shots they think they can sucker-punch a bouncer twice their size and get away with it.
They can get that first sucker punch in. They may get a second. But before the night is over, they are going to get their ass stomped and end up in the fucking hospital.

Posted by: SGT Dan at August 26, 2010 01:42 PM (GgXZc)

192 @96

Jim,

Your flippant equation of economic sanctions with a military blockade of resources is asinine. Would you also conflate the organized boycott of a local business by citizens who disapprove of certain economic practices with an armed militia barricading the doors and refusing to allow those who would shop there entrance?

Owning a thesaurus and stringing words together isn't the same as thinking critically.

Scuttle back to your Post-Colonial Literature class, where your shallow parroting of flimsy moral equivocation arguments will be appreciated.

That is all. Back to lurking....

Posted by: Lurkerbot at August 26, 2010 01:51 PM (sJA1p)

193 I am SO sick of the Dresden comparison nonsense!!!! Dresden was a MILITARY target- loads of factories (munitions, weapons, etc)and the rail lines needed for transporting troops and supplies throughout Europe. Most of the civilians killed WORKED at these factories, which were legitimate military targets. We won the war, remember. Stop being such pansy asses about Dresden!

Posted by: Agnes B. Bullock at August 26, 2010 02:12 PM (SgT91)

194 Ron Paul is the new Lyndon LaRouche.

QFT. Paul and the Ronulans are not only just grossly ignorant of history and hopelessly naive, (as Jim helpfully demonstrates for the class) but just plain off their rockers. For all their supposed jerking off with the Constitution, apparently they were collectively asleep during the part in history class where Thomas Jefferson's escapades with the Barbary Pirates was covered. Or skipping class to get high that day.

But yes, the LaRouchies are funnier. Ronulans are just sad.

Posted by: Pale Horse at August 26, 2010 03:24 PM (c+8UE)

195 Real heroes use women and children as human shields.

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