Judge Overturns Prop 8

The ruling in Perry v. Schwarzenegger just came down. The judge overturned California's Prop 8, the state constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

It's 186 pages, so it'll take some time to unpack, but here's the conclusion:

Proposition 8 fails to advance any rational basis in singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license. Indeed, the evidence shows Proposition 8 does nothing more than enshrine in the California Constitution the notion that oppositesex couples are superior to same-sex couples. Because California has no interest in discriminating against gay men and lesbians, and because Proposition 8 prevents California from fulfilling its constitutional obligation to provide marriages on an equal basis,the court concludes that Proposition 8 is unconstitutional.

A copy of the decision can be found here (the Court's own webpage has, predictably, crashed).

I haven't had a chance to dig into the details yet, but as I expected, Judge Walker made extensive factual findings that will insulate his decision on review.

As I noted in the run-up to the case, this isn't just an equal protection challenge, but also a due process case. The judge found for the plaintiffs on both claims. In other words, he's saying that there is a constitutional right to gay marriage and also a constitutional right for gays not to be discriminated against in a state marriage regime.

More to come.

Crap. Double Post: Ace got to this first, but I'm gonna keep adding here as I read the decision and as things further develop. Be sure to check Ace below, as he has additional thoughts on this.

One thing unmentioned so far -- last night the proponents, expecting this outcome, filed a motion to stay the injunction (PDF) before it was issued. That motion has not been ruled on yet and was not addressed by Judge Walker in the decision.

Evidence. On the argument that "marriage is for procreation and child-raising", the proponents struggled to provide evidence. And that's where things went off the rails:


Proponents argued that Proposition 8 should be evaluated solely by considering its language and its consistency with the central purpose of marriage, in California and everywhere else, * * * to promote naturally procreative sexual relationships and to channel them into stable, enduring unions for the sake of producingand raising the next generation. Doc #172-1 at 21. Proponents asserted that marriage for same-sex couples is not implicit in the concept of ordered liberty and thus its denial does not deprive persons seeking such unions of due process. See generally Doc #172-1. Nor, proponents continued, does the exclusion of same-sex couples in California from marriage deny them equal protection because, among other reasons, California affords such couples a separate parallel institution under its domestic partnership statutes. Doc #172-1 at 75 et seq.

At oral argument on proponents motion for summary judgment, the court posed to proponents counsel the assumption that the states interest in marriage is procreative and inquired how permitting same-sex marriage impairs or adversely affects that interest. Doc #228 at 21. Counsel replied that the inquiry was not the legally relevant question, id, but when pressed for an answer, counsel replied: Your honor, my answer is: I dont know. I dont know. Id at 23.

Despite this response, proponents in their trial brief promised to demonstrate that redefining marriage to encompass same-sex relationships would effect some twenty-three specific harmful consequences. Doc #295 at 13-14. At trial, however, proponents presented only one witness, David Blankenhorn, to address the government interest in marriage. Blankenhorns testimony is addressed at length hereafter; suffice it to say that he provided no credible evidence to support any of the claimed adverse effects proponents promised to demonstrate. During closing arguments, proponents again focused on the contention that responsible procreation is really at the heart of societys interest in regulating marriage. Tr 3038:7-8. When asked to identify the evidence at trial that supported this contention, proponents counsel replied, you dont have to have evidence of this point. Tr 3037:25-3040:4.

Proponents procreation argument, distilled to its essence, is as follows: the state has an interest in encouraging sexual activity between people of the opposite sex to occur in stable marriages because such sexual activity may lead to pregnancy and children, and the state has an interest in encouraging parents to raise children in stable households. Tr 3050:17-3051:10. The state therefore, the argument goes, has an interest in encouraging all opposite-sex sexual activity, whether responsible or irresponsible, procreative or otherwise, to occur within a stable marriage, as this encourages the development of a social norm that opposite-sex sexual activity should occur within marriage. Tr 3053:10-24. Entrenchment of this norm increases the probability that procreation will occur within a marital union. Because samesex couples sexual activity does not lead to procreation, according to proponents the state has no interest in encouraging their sexual activity to occur within a stable marriage. Thus, according to proponents, the states only interest is in oppositesexsexual activity.

I went and saw a day of the trial in January and the thing the judge is getting at above kept being hammered by the plaintiffs. Proponents kept suggesting that gay marriage would be bad, but they couldn't cough up any expert or documentary evidence that this was the case. On the day I visited, proponents own expert even went so far as to agree that gay marriage would be a good thing for the children and family of gays. Oops.

Proponent's expert on marriage, David Blankenhorn (author of The Future of Marriage and founder of the Institute for American Values):

Blankenhorn testified that California stands to benefit if it were to resume issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Blankenhorn noted that marriage would benefit same-sex couples and their children, would reduce discrimination against gays and lesbians and would be a victory for the worthy ideas of tolerance and inclusion. Tr 2850:12-13. Despite the multitude of benefits identified by Blankenhorn that would flow to the state, to gays and lesbians and to American ideals were California to recognize same-sex marriage, Blankenhorn testified that the state should not recognize same-sex marriage. Blankenhorn reasoned that the benefits of same-sex marriage are not valuable enough because same-sex marriage could conceivably weaken marriage as an institution.

The plaintiffs case was then made by showing that there was no evidence for the arguments that gay marriage will weaken marriage as an institution.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at 04:55 PM



Comments

1 I haven't had a chance to dig into the details yet, but as I expected,
Judge Walker made extensive factual findings that will insulate his
decision on review.

Heh, heh. That's cute.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 04, 2010 04:56 PM (Qp4DT)

2 This is gonna be a nasty mess.

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 04:57 PM (iYbLN)

3 Ace, will you marry me?

Posted by: goodrichard at August 04, 2010 04:57 PM (S6R0c)

4 So marriage is a right protected by due process now? So glad that he cleared that up for us. What a mess.

Posted by: brett favre's crocs at August 04, 2010 04:57 PM (9B8os)

5 2
This is gonna be a nasty mess.

At least in the end, there will be only chaos.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at August 04, 2010 04:58 PM (9hSKh)

6

Wasn't the judge telegraphing this the whole trial?

On to the Appeal.

Posted by: toby928 at August 04, 2010 04:58 PM (8/oOq)

7 Explain to me where there IS a constitutional amendment for marriage. I've never seen one. How can you overturn something that doesn't even exist?

Not being snarky just want to know.

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 04:59 PM (iYbLN)

8 "I thought, maybe this is what they do in Hollywood."

Posted by: will of the people at August 04, 2010 04:59 PM (DHNp4)

9
Judge being gay a nonissue during Prop. 8 trial

February 07, 2010|By Phillip Matier and Andrew Ross

The biggest open secret in the landmark trial over same-sex marriage
being heard in San Francisco is that the federal judge who will decide
the case, Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker, is himself gay.

Yeah. Non-issue.

Django on August 4, 2010 at 4:51 PM


Posted by: wildwood at August 04, 2010 04:59 PM (VSWPU)

10 This is gonna be a nasty mess.
Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52

In your line of work, I thought that you'd be accustomed to that.

Posted by: Blue Hen at August 04, 2010 04:59 PM (R2fpr)

11 Drudge has the whirling flasher up on this breaking news. You're behind the 8 ball, Ace. Summon the flaming (no pun intended) skull.

Posted by: Lady in Black at August 04, 2010 04:59 PM (Zq7bR)

12 I guess the people's will doesn't really matter anymore....it's who can manipulate the law more effectively than the next guy.

Posted by: curious at August 04, 2010 04:59 PM (p302b)

13 This is gonna be a nasty mess.
Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector
Aaaaah, I believe I see what you did there.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at August 04, 2010 05:00 PM (T3YvQ)

14 We need a constitutional amendment to outlaw penumbric emanations.

Posted by: nine coconuts at August 04, 2010 05:00 PM (DHNp4)

15 In your line of work, I thought that you'd be accustomed to that.

Posted by: Blue Hen
At least I wear a hazmat suit.

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:00 PM (iYbLN)

16 Did the judge grant the state's request for a stay during the appeal?

Posted by: toby928 at August 04, 2010 05:00 PM (8/oOq)

17 Proposition 8 fails to advance any rational basis in singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license.

Prop 8 doesn't stop gay men or lesbians from getting marriage licenses. They just can't get them to marry the same sex.

These leftists are too stupid for words. Despicable, lying scumbags who have to try and force their own emotional problems on the rest of the world.

This nation cannot withstand such disingenuous idiocy. No way. No how.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 04, 2010 05:01 PM (Qp4DT)

18 I suppose if I evah wanted to get into the Harvard MBA program I'd have to chime the bells for this and say this is the greatest day on Gaia .

Posted by: Darth Rove at August 04, 2010 05:01 PM (GfYt/)

19 Ugh, too many seminal references today.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at August 04, 2010 05:01 PM (9hSKh)

20 #17

I'm so confused.

Maybe it's the splooge.

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:02 PM (iYbLN)

21 Explain to me where there IS a constitutional amendment for marriage. I've never seen one. How can you overturn something that doesn't even exist?
Ahem.

Posted by: "constitutionally" (?) protected "right" to privacy at August 04, 2010 05:02 PM (T3YvQ)

22 What does privacy has to do with marriage. I'm not being obtuse on purpose.

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:03 PM (iYbLN)

23 has=have

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:03 PM (iYbLN)

24 He must be reading the New and improved version of the constitution. I can't seem to find the word marriage in my copy. This is only going to lead to 40 more years of wrangling over this issue. Democratic votes tend to put such issues to rest, judicial fiat tends to create long term problems.

Posted by: Red at August 04, 2010 05:03 PM (7us0J)

25 Quit cutting ace's grass with the double posts Gabe .

Posted by: Bill D. Cat at August 04, 2010 05:03 PM (NuAIL)

26 Oh, isn't that just craptastic.... Yet another festering sore of a judicial decision running ahead of public opinion. It's been, what, 37 years since Roe v. Wade reduced legislative discretion regarding abortion to posturing and hand-waving? We now get to have 40 years of low-grade civil war about gays and marriage. Wonderful. I can hardly wait.

Posted by: cthulhu at August 04, 2010 05:03 PM (/0IOT)

27 19 Ugh, too many seminal references today.
Throw on some Crocs. They're easier to wipe off.

Posted by: brett favre's crocs at August 04, 2010 05:03 PM (9B8os)

28 I randomly flipped to a page in the ruling, and the argument I found was that because the earliest pro-8 TV commercials weren't perfectly "secular" (by which the judge, who seems kinda dim, appears to mean something like "deontic, but amorally so"), 8 falls afoul of Lawrence.
If that's exemplary of the quality of reasoning, this decision will survive the 9th and get pwnt at the SC, about 6-3.

Posted by: oblig. at August 04, 2010 05:03 PM (x7Ao8)

29 Just remember, gabe, your fellow fuckheads here hate you.

Posted by: Kenneth Burke at August 04, 2010 05:04 PM (m4SBl)

30 I haven't had a chance to dig into the details yet, but as I expected,
Judge Walker made extensive factual findings that will insulate his
decision on review.

We shall see if his "factual" finding do in fact insulate his decision.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at August 04, 2010 05:04 PM (DsU01)

31 Let me see if I got this right - a judge overturns a state's attempt to modify its constitution and ends up making gay marriage a right nationwide?

So much for the 10th amendment.

Posted by: brian at August 04, 2010 05:05 PM (y05cf)

32 I think I may have a previously unknown twin in Red.

Posted by: cthulhu at August 04, 2010 05:05 PM (/0IOT)

33 So, the judge found that there is a right to marriage and that gays were a constitutionally protected class of people. Nothing like being wrong twice. There is no right to marriage....marriage is nothing more than a contract between 2 people. The states have traditionally been allowed to restrict all sorts of contracts executed between people. Minors can not enter into contracts, you can not enter into a contract to commit an illegal act....and under the financial reform law, you (if you is a bank) can not enter into a contract charging your client a teaser rate. Yet, the contract of marriage is special. Why?
And gays are a protected class. Hmm, that doesn't open up Pandora's Box too much. Got fired at work for stealing beer - hey, they discriminated against me because I am gay. Not get the job - same claim. Cut off in traffic - homophobe hated me because I was gay.
Tolerance now dictates we subvert the will of the majority to the whim of the minority...irrespective of how illogical it may seem.

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 04, 2010 05:05 PM (OWjjx)

34
hi eggmcmuffin

Posted by: your fickle fiend, the summer wind at August 04, 2010 05:06 PM (uFokq)

35 The Benevolent Dictators strike again.

Posted by: davidt at August 04, 2010 05:06 PM (HtIec)

36 The order is founded on the assumption that gay men and women are "singled out for the denial of a marriage license." This is utter bullshit.
Gay men and women are not "singled out" by Prop 8 at all. They have exactly the same right to marry as straight people do -- to marry a person of the opposite gender. So the foundational premise,i.e., that gay men and women are treated differently than the general population by Prop 8 -- is a fallacy.
Gays (at least the litigants) don't want thesame right as everybody else.They want what they see as a different butequivalent right; the right to marry someone of their own gender. Unfortunately, as far as I know the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution doesn't guarantee you "equivalent" rights if you don't like the ones that are already offered.
Maybe Jefferson should have put a"NO SUBSTITUTIONS" disclaimer at the bottom of the Constitution so this would be clearer to guyslike Judge Vaughn Walker.

Posted by: Cicero at August 04, 2010 05:07 PM (QKKT0)

37 @mallamutt - why not? that's the reasoning they're using to try to excuse the shooting here in CT yesterday.

he was fired for stealing beer, so naturally he had to kill the racist management.

Posted by: brian at August 04, 2010 05:08 PM (y05cf)

38 What's th quickest way to get this to the SCOTUS? Have another circuit fail to honor this "reasoning" in a gay marriage case?

Posted by: Jean at August 04, 2010 05:08 PM (WkuV6)

39
...as far as I know the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution doesn't
guarantee you "equivalent" rights if you don't like the ones that are
already offered.

Pretty much sums it up.

Posted by: your fickle fiend, the summer wind at August 04, 2010 05:08 PM (uFokq)

40 Splooge,

It looks like he pulled this decision out of his ass...

Posted by: nine coconuts at August 04, 2010 05:09 PM (DHNp4)

41 What does privacy has to do with marriage
No, I was making a bigger point. You asked where in the Constitution there was a right to marriage. I'm asking where in the Constitution there is an inherent 'right to privacy' as we now know it. Christ, people can't name the Bill of Rights, but they're sure as hell convinced they have a constitutionallly protected 'right' to privacy.
In other words: we're fucked.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at August 04, 2010 05:09 PM (T3YvQ)

42 I'm trying to wrap my mind around this decision but it just isn't working. I am not a stupid person (shut up morons) but this doesn't make sense. If this is true then anyone can be a protected class of people and their "rights" supersede 300+ million Americans.

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:09 PM (iYbLN)

43 Kenneth Burke at August 04, 2010 05:04 PM (m4SBl)

Wow, really? Care to share that amazing mind reading power of yours with the rest of the class? Otherwise, don't pretend to know how people are thinking.

Posted by: Gaff at August 04, 2010 05:10 PM (jDWYv)

44 Why is marriage considered to be a constitutional right at all?

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at August 04, 2010 05:10 PM (HQSQk)

45 Hey, what about me?

Posted by: Morman dude with 20 wives at August 04, 2010 05:11 PM (UOM48)

46 Thanks lacey.

Think about moving to San Diego and selling t-shirts with me at the bay. You'll feel better!

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:11 PM (iYbLN)

47 Why won't you let me marry my loving goats? Won't somebody please think of the kids????

Posted by: Abdul Alhazred at August 04, 2010 05:12 PM (VmtE9)

48 What about me and my goat?

Posted by: Achmed, muslim living in CA at August 04, 2010 05:12 PM (UOM48)

49 Hey, what about me?

Posted by: Morman dude with 20 wives at August 04, 2010 05:11 PM (UOM4

And us!

Posted by: Muslum dude with 15 wives, ages 12-15 at August 04, 2010 05:13 PM (MYT77)

50 I'm asking where in the Constitution there is an inherent 'right to privacy' as we now know it.
Look under the penumbra, baby.

Posted by: Potter Stewart, Penumbra Detective at August 04, 2010 05:13 PM (QKKT0)

51 48 Why won't you let me marry my loving goats? Won't somebody please think of the kids????
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred at August 04, 2010 05:12 PM (VmtE9)

49 What about me and my goat?
Posted by: Achmed, muslim living in CA at August 04, 2010 05:12 PM (UOM4

The moron horde is scary sometimes...

Posted by: joncelli at August 04, 2010 05:14 PM (RD7QR)

52 47If San Diego weren't in that hellhole state of yours I'd seriously consider it.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at August 04, 2010 05:14 PM (T3YvQ)

53 I think redheads should be the next protected class - I'm sure I can find something suitable by Patrick Henry to back that up as well.

Posted by: Jean at August 04, 2010 05:14 PM (WkuV6)

54 So, having Animus to a behaviour it automatic bias, and thus cannot be used for the basis of a Law?
Society has Animus to muderers and thieves... and thus make those behaviours against the law...
He was just looking for some excuse... and the fact that one of the few Openly gay Federal Judges heard this case??? How STUPID can we get...
(PS, I'm actualy in favor of the State getting out of marriage totaly, but this is a blow to the idea that we are a Representative Democracy...)

Posted by: Romeo13 at August 04, 2010 05:14 PM (H+oXM)

55 So, if I had just married that kid, everything would be cool, right?

Posted by: Roman Polanski at August 04, 2010 05:14 PM (UOM48)

56 You know I don't give a flying fuck if gays marry. What I do care about is not opening the door to polygamy which rulings of this nature will lead to. Polygamy is a society crushing system that's generally only restrained by outside force. It's lead to disaster everywhere it's been tried.

Another 20 years and gays would have won the democratic debate on marriage and laws would have been passed allowing such. It would have been a dead issue. Now we'll have 40 years of bitching about it and it's back door that Polygamy will spring forth from.

Posted by: Red at August 04, 2010 05:15 PM (7us0J)

57 If one can be a protected class based one's preferred sexual activity, then it does beg the question how can bigamy, incest, etc laws stand?
Of course, if you say that people just shout "homophobe" as though that ends the issue.

Posted by: brett favre's crocs at August 04, 2010 05:15 PM (9B8os)

58 53
47If San Diego weren't in that hellhole state of yours I'd seriously consider it.

Posted by: laceyunderalls

We could sell beads too. Touristas are suckers for beads.
CHEAP SOUVENIRS!

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:15 PM (iYbLN)

59
somebody put up a new post

this is making me sick.

This makes 3 major blows to our great nation.
1) Judge rejects AZ's law
2) Mosque will be built at Ground Zero
3) Judge overturns the will of the people on CA and grants homosexuals special rights.

Posted by: your fickle fiend, the summer wind at August 04, 2010 05:16 PM (uFokq)

60 All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
It says life, liberty, property. Locke Jefferson defined those rights well elsewhere, I don't see how gay marriage(or even marriage) falls under life or liberty.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at August 04, 2010 05:16 PM (HQSQk)

61 Why do we even vote?

Posted by: Gride at August 04, 2010 05:16 PM (X3IJ/)

62 Why is marriage considered to be a constitutional right at all?
It isn't. Marriage is a contract, nothing more, nothing less. This is part of the lefts constant attempt to make every little aspect of your life a right. You have the right to marry, you have the right to clean air, clean water, education, health care, etc. Why - because once you have a right, then you have the right to have the state provide the elements necessary for you to enjoy that right. Air is dirty - your constitutional right to clean air has been violated, better shut down that factory. Water dirty - ditto Sick - well, the state better cough up the jack to pay for your medical care and treatment.
Expanding rights = expanding governmental responsibility = more government
The Lefts formula for utopia.

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 04, 2010 05:16 PM (OWjjx)

63 put on some eye shade and join the parade.

Posted by: Todd Bridges, Survivor. Outwit, outlast and outplay. at August 04, 2010 05:17 PM (qL20/)

64 joncelli@52

Great minds and all that. Heh.

Posted by: Jane D'oh, giving the okey-doke at August 04, 2010 05:17 PM (UOM48)

65 I'm asking where in the Constitution there is an inherent 'right to privacy' as we now know it.
The decision is on Equal Protection grounds. The argument was that with the enactment of Prop 8, California law now treated gays different than straights in matters dealing with marriage. The federal constitutional right was not the right to marry; it was the right to be treated equally under the law.
It's bullshit, but there it is.

Posted by: Cicero at August 04, 2010 05:17 PM (QKKT0)

66
Now, tell me, who exactly is getting bamboozled?

If you were in charge and wanted to destroy the United States of America, what would you be doing differently than what the people in charge are doing?

Posted by: your fickle fiend, the summer wind at August 04, 2010 05:18 PM (uFokq)

67 Well, he's wrong on all counts. There is a serious rational basis for privileging committed male/female monogamous unions, and none for privileging same sex unions.

It fails on equal protection because Gay people can get married like anyone else, as long as they commit no fraud.

Posted by: SarahW at August 04, 2010 05:18 PM (Z4T49)

68 This is just nuts, I'm going to get ice cream.

Ciao puppehs.

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:19 PM (iYbLN)

69 Release the Kraken Obama!!!!

Posted by: Zeus at August 04, 2010 05:20 PM (VmtE9)

70 All fuckin' right ! Let's party ! Business will boom now.

Posted by: Another Divorce Lawyer at August 04, 2010 05:21 PM (Wq0+q)

71 The due process claim is even more ridiculous than the EP claim.

Posted by: brett favre's crocs at August 04, 2010 05:21 PM (9B8os)

72 Release the Kraken Obama Splooge!!!!

FIFY

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:22 PM (iYbLN)

73 A little advice for those who don't believe in gay marriage:
Don't get gay-married.
Pretty effing simple.
Otherwise, why not stay the hell out of the lives people you don't even know, don't care about and wouldn't even invite to a barbecue.
You just want to run their lives and use government to do it.
Laws are for protecting people from harm. Not for sticking your effing noses in other people's lives and telling them how to live.

What happened to small government ? What happened to your disdain for government intrusion in people's lives?
You're all full of shit. That's what happened.

Posted by: Jimmy-Joe at August 04, 2010 05:24 PM (vUdSP)

74 So much for the estate tax. You can now marry your grandpa and avoid it.

Posted by: PR at August 04, 2010 05:25 PM (k7SeR)

75 48
Why won't you let me marry my loving goats? Won't somebody please think of the kids????

Posted by: Abdul Alhazred at August 04, 2010 05:12 PM (VmtE9)

49
What about me and my goat?


Posted by: Achmed, muslim living in CA at August 04, 2010 05:12 PM (UOM4

Do you Achmed take Abdul...

Posted by: Gay Rights Activist at August 04, 2010 05:25 PM (Wq0+q)

76 Why all the hate Jimmy-Joe. Not enough fiber in your diet???

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:26 PM (iYbLN)

77 Look at Sweden to see the impact of gay marriage on society. There is no rational basis for gay marriage. If gays want to have a legal contract governing inheritance, etc. then that is viable. However, marriage is what it is: it is for the procreation and continuation of the species and it is for the pleasure of the man and the woman. The judge has, effectively, said that there is no more Judaeo-Christian foundation to American law. Welcome to sharia, people. The judge has paved the way for it.

Posted by: apodoca at August 04, 2010 05:27 PM (JCHdz)

78 79
Why all the hate Jimmy-Joe. Not enough fiber in your diet???


Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:26 PM (iYbLN)

Too much meat !

Posted by: Animal Rights Activist at August 04, 2010 05:27 PM (Wq0+q)

Posted by: EzE at August 04, 2010 05:29 PM (W59Qh)

80 A little advice for those who don't believe in gay marriage:
Don't get gay-married.
Pretty effing simple.
Otherwise, why not stay the hell out of the lives people you don't even know, don't care about and wouldn't even invite to a barbecue.
You just want to run their lives and use government to do it.
Laws are for protecting people from harm. Not for sticking your effing noses in other people's lives and telling them how to live.

And what does society get in return for allowing gay marriage? Has nothing to do with wanting to run lives and use government to do it. If I wanted that, I'd have supported Obamacare.

What happened to small government ? What happened to your disdain for government intrusion in people's lives?
You're all full of shit. That's what happened.

If that's the case then you'll no doubt join me in supporting the end of civil marriage entirely and return marriage to what it once was, a religious ceremony between families and church.

Then, if gays can find a church to marry them, it doesn't impact me at all.

How does gay marriage impact me, you ask? Simple - I pay the salaries for the court system that is now going to have to deal with a serious uptick in divorce hearings because there is no reason for gay marriages to be any more durable than hetero ones. Which means my taxes are gonna go up so gays can get divorced.

Oh joy!

Posted by: brian at August 04, 2010 05:29 PM (y05cf)

81 sure I'll go away , I don't really care. your insult to me is to call me a cocksucker, obviously you think it's a wrong thing for men to do.

Posted by: EzE at August 04, 2010 05:30 PM (W59Qh)

82 46 Hey, what about me?
Posted by: Morman dude with 20 wives at August 04, 2010 05:11 PM (UOM4
---------------
Wouldn't that make you a "morwoman dude"?

Posted by: Anachronda spouts gibberish at August 04, 2010 05:31 PM (3K4hn)

83 sure I'll go away , I don't really care. your insult to me is to call me a cocksucker, obviously you think it's a wrong thing for men to do.

If the universe had intended men to suck cock, it would not have created women.

Posted by: brian at August 04, 2010 05:33 PM (y05cf)

84 If the universe had intended men to suck cock, it would not have created women.

Posted by: brian
Or He would have made men more flexible.

Posted by: mpfs, Splooge Inspector 52 at August 04, 2010 05:34 PM (iYbLN)

85 Posted by: Jimmy-Joe at August 04, 2010 05:24 PM (vUdSP)
Wow...just decided to jump in make assumptions without reading the post. O.K., let me help you here.
Most of the posters here could care less about gay marriage. What we do care about is 1) the creation of constitutional rights out of whole cloth where they do not exist 2) activist judges creating said rights and 3) elections being nullified because one person thinks the majority was wrong.
I suppose you are probably in favor of 1 and 2. If you are in favor of 3, you neither deserve or should be given the right to vote. You clearly do not appreciate it.
Many states have enacted either gay marriage or civil unions law. These laws are being created without the attendant consequences of declaring marriage a right.
But, Jimmy-Joe, between your vile invective and inane rambling, tell me where exactly in the Constitution the right to marriage exist?
I'll wait why you flap around and try to change topics. Cause that is how the trolls roll.

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 04, 2010 05:36 PM (OWjjx)

86 I cannot find one argument for gay marriage that does not apply to a man who wants to take a second wife.

Why should married men be "singled out" (as if gays were actually singled out [I call BS on that premise])?

Two wives is a far more "procreative" than any gay marriage.

This ruling is ridiculous. The government may as well just stop recognizing marriage altogether if it can't understand the benefit of the mother-father-based family.

Posted by: George at August 04, 2010 05:36 PM (WA19M)

87 Being a guy, its never occur ed to me to marry another guy. I just never wanted to do anything with another guy's butt except maybe comb the hair out and fluff it up a bit. One way to look at this ruling is that people now have more options as to who they choose to marry. Being married to aaother guy might not be all that bad. You wouldn't have to remember to put the toilet seat down; You could throw your dirty socks wherever you want; You could watch football all weekend without getting bitched at. The possibilities are endless. Of course, it would take some time to get used to the icky sex...

Posted by: Big Al at August 04, 2010 05:36 PM (pELFl)

88 I went and saw a day of the trial in January and the thing the judge is getting at above kept being hammered by the plaintiffs. Proponents kept suggesting that gay marriage would be bad, but they couldn't cough up any expert or documentary evidence that this was the case.
This is what happens when liberal judges start using the "compelling state interest" rationale.
Whether gay marriage is good, bad or neutral in terms of practical benefit shouldn't be up to a judge to even consider.
The only argument that should've been heard is "Does this or does this not violate the US Constitution?".
Remarkable how the concept of "judicial restraint" and stare decisis are weighed heavily when it comes to expanding the government's power, but when it comes to laws or state constitutional amendments that the judge just doesn't like, such considerations go right out the fucking window.
I don't really give a damn whether gays can marry in CA or not. But judges who make this sort of outcome-based decision piss me off to no end.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at August 04, 2010 05:38 PM (plsiE)

89 ROFFL! My taxes will go up!!!!!!!

Not a serious answer to be found anywhere....How could I expect otherwise. Can't you all just hate people different from you from the comfort of your own home? Do you really need laws to enforce your intolerance?

is it really the government's job to carry out your bigotry? Don't we have enough problems as it is? What's next changing the constitution? Oops! Oh yeah you want to do that too...

Bye bye!

Posted by: Jimmy-Joe at August 04, 2010 05:39 PM (vUdSP)

90 Posted by: Jimmy-Joe at August 04, 2010 05:39 PM (vUdSP)
That is what I expected. I gave you 3 serious reasons to question this decision and you decide to turn tail and run. Typical of a troll....run away when the issue gets too complex.
Pretty pathetic. Maybe better head back to LFG where your "logic" is more understood.

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 04, 2010 05:40 PM (OWjjx)

91 "Marriage" would seem to be as simple as a look in the dictionary. Depends on how "updated" the dictionary is, though. I'd say a definitive definition needs a constitutional amendment, but those wacky things are subject to the whims of judges.

Posted by: dum blond at August 04, 2010 05:43 PM (gbCNS)

92 Obviously Jimmy-Joe is mentally challenged.

is it really the government's job to carry out your bigotry? Don't we have enough problems as it is? What's next changing the constitution? Oops! Oh yeah you want to do that too...

I don't know of anyone here who has suggested modifying the Constitution to define marriage. I know such groups exist, and they are wrong.

Because the Constitution is a catalog of what the government cannot do. Perverting it by inserting a clause that says what individuals cannot do is unacceptable. And no matter how they try to phrase it, it comes down to the Constitution - a document which carries as its sole purpose to limit federal power - being modified to force the federal government to tell individuals they cannot do something.

Posted by: brian at August 04, 2010 05:44 PM (y05cf)

93 Why is this little twerp still allowed to post here?

Posted by: Gerry at August 04, 2010 05:44 PM (MKR71)

94 Not a serious answer to be found anywhere...

I would start with the proposition that perhaps every significant culture and religious tradition in the past 4000 years or so may not be inferior to the whims of the Fabulous Vaughn Walker.

See - I didn't even have to get into the public health dimensions of your rampant buttseks in the bathouses, because that would be impolite.

Posted by: Alec Leamas at August 04, 2010 05:45 PM (r1OG3)

95 Proposition 8 fails to advance any rational basis in singling outnon-human primatesand alligators for denial of a marriage license too.

Posted by: Chas at August 04, 2010 05:45 PM (D1yfa)

96 Don't leave Jimmy-Joe! I wanted to invite you to my next barbecue.

Posted by: Cicero at August 04, 2010 05:48 PM (QKKT0)

97
On the argument that "marriage is for procreation and child-raising", the proponents struggled to provide evidence.

You shitting me?

Posted by: your fickle fiend, the summer wind at August 04, 2010 05:49 PM (uFokq)

98 another loss for social conservatives. This one is as bad as when the Supreme Court struck down inter racial marriage

Posted by: denny crane at August 04, 2010 05:50 PM (I+7Zv)

99 I think we can safely say the constitution no longer has any meaning at all.

Posted by: kansas at August 04, 2010 05:53 PM (mka2b)

100 92 ROFFL! My taxes will go up!!!!!!!Not a serious answer to be found anywhere....How could I expect otherwise. Can't you all just hate people different from you from the comfort of your own home? Do you really need laws to enforce your intolerance? is it really the government's job to carry out your bigotry? Don't we have enough problems as it is? What's next changing the constitution? Oops! Oh yeah you want to do that too...Bye bye!

You tell him, son! I'm glad I breast-fed you until your were 20!

Posted by: Mrs. Jimmy-Joe at August 04, 2010 05:53 PM (zgZzy)

101 another loss for social conservatives. This one is as bad as when the Supreme Court struck down inter racial marriage
Posted by: denny crane at August 04, 2010 05:50 PM (I+7Zv)
55 minutes to think and that's the best you can come up with? Amateur.

Posted by: Cicero at August 04, 2010 05:53 PM (QKKT0)

102 I think we can safely say the constitution no longer has any meaning at all.

Posted by: kansas at August 04, 2010 05:53 PM (mka2b)
I prefer to say that this Constitution is of no particular use to us anymore.Kratos, you were right.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at August 04, 2010 05:54 PM (5Xf3c)

103 101 another loss for social conservatives. This one is as bad as when the Supreme Court struck down inter racial marriage
Posted by: denny crane

You tell 'em, Denny! Everyone knows the GOP fought tooth and nail against the Civil Rights legislation!!!

Posted by: Robert KKK Byrd at August 04, 2010 05:54 PM (zgZzy)

104 101 another loss for social conservatives. This one is as bad as when the Supreme Court struck down inter racial marriage

Posted by: denny crane at August 04, 2010 05:50 PM (I+7Zv)

Big difference, imbecile. Interracial couples can still create new citizens that pay taxes.

No matter how many times you pack Jimmy-Joe's fudge, you're never gonna make a baby.

Posted by: brian at August 04, 2010 05:55 PM (y05cf)

105 This one is as bad as when the Supreme Court struck down inter racial marriage
Hey Einstein, tell me again which Supreme Court case "struck down interracial marriage"?I'll settle for the Lawyer's Ed. cite if you can't giveme the official one.

Posted by: Cicero at August 04, 2010 05:55 PM (QKKT0)

106 I think I've also found the critical flaw in the decision - the judge asserts that ...Proposition 8 prevents California from fulfilling its constitutional obligation to provide marriages on an equal basis, the court concludes that Proposition 8 is unconstitutional

Does this judge say on what basis California has a constitutional obligation to provide marriages to anyone?

Posted by: brian at August 04, 2010 05:57 PM (y05cf)

107 Come on Cicero - when have facts mattered to progressives?

Posted by: brian at August 04, 2010 05:58 PM (y05cf)

108
I'm quite certain that the fact that Judge Walker is himself a homosexual, had absolutely NOTHING to do with how he ruled on this case...

Posted by: thebronze at August 04, 2010 06:01 PM (06VrU)

109 Posted by: Jimmy-Joe at August 04, 2010 05:39 PM

Seriously, no one cares about your sexual orientation certainly not enough to hate you. Really! The only ones that are obsessed about it are gays themselves. You should have the absolute right to choose your same sex partner, and you should have every right that heterosexual couples have. Really, most people believe that. But it is not marriage as it has been understood in western culture for thousands of years. Regardless of what you choose to call homosexual unions, the majority of people will not consider it marriage because of tradition or what a federal Judge says.

Posted by: Who Cares at August 04, 2010 06:03 PM (pELFl)

110 What they really need to ban is sex between chimps and goats.How else do you think Igotmy mental problems?

Posted by: denny crane at August 04, 2010 06:07 PM (VmtE9)

111 The plaintiffs case was then made by showing that there was no evidence
for the arguments that gay marriage will weaken marriage as an
institution.

Was there any evidence produced which suggested a same sex union is marriage?

Posted by: Rocks at August 04, 2010 06:18 PM (yLPXs)

112 How can a constitutional amendment be unconstitutional?

This amounts to a judicial coup. The judge needs to be removed from office, his "decision" ignored as blatantly unconstitutional.

Posted by: CoolCzech at August 04, 2010 06:32 PM (tJjm/)

113 On one hand, I don't particularly get worked up about gay marriage one way or the other; if anything, I'm mildly supportive of it.

On the other, I'm willing to accept that having it imposed judicially by a gay judge over the will of the voters is going to make a lot of folks, who tend to vote as I do on other issues, blood-spittingly angry and highly motivated, and that that's not exactly a bad thing.


Posted by: JEM at August 04, 2010 06:41 PM (o+SC1)

114 In Ontario, all laws which used the word 'husband' and 'wife' had to be changed due to a judge ruling in favour of 'same sex' marriage. Since homosexual men do not have 'wives', no one can. Same with lesbians and husbands.

However, the adoption of contraception abortion greatly weakens the argument in favour of one man one woman marriage.

When couples are free to choose a childless marriage, you can no longer effectively argue that the state has an interest in regulating marriage.

Personally, I would favour the state to get out of the marriage business entirely.


Posted by: TrudyinOntario at August 04, 2010 06:48 PM (5N4ik)

115 Why is this thread even here, Gabe? Not enough traffic over at tediousonenotegaycheerleaderandpretendlawexpert.com where you cross-posted it?
It's soooo awesome that your bullshit "conservatism" has a nice big fat exemption carved out of it for your own sexual proclivities. On that front, anything goes, I guess.

Posted by: VJay at August 04, 2010 06:56 PM (Q/RCp)

116 What I'm weary of is the seizure of the country from the electorate. California voted for something. Who cares whether it's rational or not as long as the majority voted for it. Seriously.
It's bad enough when the elected government can do something that 70 percent of the people do not want in healthcare, but now the judicial branch strikes with its whims again.
As was stated earlier, what's the point of voting, if it's made meaningless by the courts?
Nobody noticed for 200 years that the right to gay marriage was being violated?
Nobody noticed that enforcing immigration laws is illegal?
Nobody noticed that Americans have a right to healthcarebut must pay for it or be jailed?
WTF




Posted by: Lokki at August 04, 2010 06:59 PM (a5F9g)

117 No matter how many times you pack Jimmy-Joe's fudge, you're never gonna make a baby.

That won't stop me from trying! Now get your ass back here, Jimmy-Joe, I need to widen your sphincter more. Your butthole might be wide but it's not nearly wide enough for an assbaby.

Posted by: denny crane at August 04, 2010 06:59 PM (BKagC)

118 I don't care one bit about who other people marry, at all. It's none of my business.

I am, however, interested in how anyone squares this ruling with the striking down of the DoMA on Tenth Amendment grounds. Either marriage is under the sole jurisdiction of the states, or it is not. The Federal judiciary very much wants to have it both ways, it seems.

I think the government needs to get out of the marriage business entirely. All of you carping about how the .gov has an "interest in promoting families" or whatever do realize that the state only became involved in marriage to prevent blacks and whites from marrying, don't you?

Posted by: CTD at August 04, 2010 07:19 PM (6wODR)

119 "The government may as well just stop recognizing marriage altogether"

YES. Exactly. The .gov has no reason at all to involve itself in the marriage business.

Posted by: CTD at August 04, 2010 07:22 PM (6wODR)

120 I think the government needs to get out of the
marriage business entirely. All of you carping about how the .gov has an
"interest in promoting families" or whatever do realize that the state
only became involved in marriage to prevent blacks and whites from
marrying, don't you?





Posted by: CTD at August 04, 2010 07:19 PM (6wODR)
Total BS. Marriages were registered with the state long before miscegenation laws. That is exactly why miscegenation laws were passed. The state got involved in marriage for one reason only, the protection and support of women and children. especially in cases of divorce. prior to that the church mostly handled it or they state simply sided with men because legally their name was on everything.

Posted by: Rocks at August 04, 2010 07:29 PM (yLPXs)

121 Homo's do not appreciate the fact that for me, and most, a man's butthole is fucking nasty and to be avoided.
If perhaps you can maintain an erection while being stared down by a man's asshole, I submit you have mental problems.
On deck: Man Boy Love. Sick fuckers

Posted by: Not Quite at August 04, 2010 07:31 PM (Bs8Te)

122 121
Nobody noticed for 200 years that the right to gay marriage was being violated?
The right to gay marriage hasn't been violated for 200 years. It's only been violated for 2, when California passed a constitutional amendment outlawing gay marriage when gay marriage had been previously legal in the state.
In theory (although it won't be limited to this in practice), the argument is this: Once California opened the can of worms (gay marriage around 2003?) it couldn't be closed. After 2008, gay marriages that were previously legal were now invalid, which violates the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause.
Now, for states that have never allowed gay marriages to this point, this ruling shouldn't matter (in theory).
In practice, of course, is different

Posted by: The Q at August 04, 2010 07:35 PM (pfStM)

123 124 "The government may as well just stop recognizing marriage altogether" YES. Exactly. The .gov has no reason at all to involve itself in the marriage business.
Thirded. Marriage is a religious ceremony - the gov't should have no place in marriages.
And if the Catholic Church refuses to marry gays in their private religious ceremonies - too bad.

Posted by: The Q at August 04, 2010 07:36 PM (pfStM)

124 I'd tell you how gay marriage will weaken marriage as an institution....but blow me first.

Posted by: Mel Gibson at August 04, 2010 07:49 PM (/0IOT)

125 All of you carping about how the .gov has an "interest in promoting
families" or whatever do realize that the state only became involved in
marriage to prevent blacks and whites from marrying, don't you?

LOL, "the State" has been regulating marriage before there were any States. Marriage laws came over as common law from the U.K. long before there was any of this BS race strife.

Posted by: Vic at August 04, 2010 07:52 PM (/jbAw)

126 I figure at least one regular reader of this blog should say they agree with this ruling. I think it's about time it was overturned.

Posted by: dorkafork at August 04, 2010 07:52 PM (npEqZ)

127 "How can a constitutional amendment be unconstitutional?"

If an amendment to a state constitution violates the federal constitution. I strongly disagree with this decision, but surely you recognize that there are some circumstances where that COULD occur, yes?


Posted by: Dave J. at August 04, 2010 07:54 PM (DCQ0q)

128 The Q -

Actually, gay marriages weren't "outlawed." Prop 8 merely stated that only marriages between a man and a woman would be recognized as such by the state. Whatever "advantages" a marriage has over a civil union were limited to about .1% of a difference (even state taxes take into account domestic partnerships and such in California). Everything else can be contracted for (and usually is in this state, to varying degrees, even amongst heterosexuals). So, the real issue was the word marriage. Those against Prop 8 don't want the term marriage to be exclusive to men and women - this whole fight is an attack on the very notion of marriage and heterosexuality, nothing more, nothing less. It is a demand by less than 5% of the population (generally speaking - probably higher in CA) that everyone else must call any sort of domestic union between two homosexual partners a marriage. I can guarantee you that changes in school curriculum will follow shortly (although, most CA schools already teach the equality of homosexual relationships to heterosexual relationships, morally speaking).

I'd also like to add this tidbit: using the METHODOLOGY of "reasoning" by this judge, can't we also talk about the age of consent laws antiquated? Aren't kids growing up "faster and faster" today? Can't we use the same kind of "logic" used by this judge to set aside all sorts of age requirements? There are plenty of 13 and 14 year-olds who can probably drive better than many adults (not to mention the aged). Why do we have this arbitrary number?

the sinner,

Patrick

Posted by: Patrick at August 04, 2010 08:03 PM (+HRJG)

129 Actually - No I didn't run away... Had some things to do. I'm happy to answer your question Mallamute.

1). The judge did not create new constitutional rights. He preserved rights already in the constitution, namely the Equal protection clause in the 14th amendment:

"no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"

(isn't that the one you're buddies in congress want to get rid of? Radical, dude!)

2). No rights were created here - Sorry no activist judge here. No law states two people can be prohibited from joining in the union of marriage based on anything besides being of direct relation - brother, sister. For health reasons. These gay people we're talking about are not asking to marry their siblings. They will never enter in to traditional marriage, therefore prop 8 basically tells them no matter how committed they are to their partner, they will never be able to enter into a civil marriage based on their sexual orientation.

Sexual orientation is protected in every other way. You cannot refuse to hire someone or fire someone or arrest someone for their sexual orientation. Now, thankfully you can't also deny them the pursuit of happiness, a God given inalienable right in this country. You are an American, aren't you? You do know that, no?

3. The will of the people in this case is discriminatory and violates the constitution. I'm sure if you called a vote in 1963 in Alabama (or maybe even today?) to outlaw marriage between a black man and white woman or if you held a vote years prior to the suffrage movement to poll how the masses felt about women voting, you would find a similar "will of the people" to keep them from voting would you not?

Equal rights for blacks, equal rights for women were widely resisted as well at one time.

We all look back on those bigots as being wrong just as we will all one day look back at you bigots as being wrong.

One thing is for sure. One day all gay people in every state will have the right to marry. Its just a matter of time. This is and always has been a progressive nation founded on progression.

Finally - you say no one cares one way or another about gay marriage. Well, when another American's rights are being infringed upon, you realy should care so don't give me that "I'm not a bigot" crap. Ok - fine you;re not a bigot. You're just apathetic about another taxpayer's God-given right under the Constitution.

Oh and by the way. the gay sex jokes really creep me out. You're all a little bit too preoccupied with gay sex....

But then again you're a small minded bunch of twisted little bigots that can't keep your mind out of other people's bedrooms.

I'm not too worried about 2010 or 2012. You're all gonna die just like Jim crow did. Just a matter of time. See ya!




Posted by: Jimmy-Joe at August 04, 2010 08:05 PM (vUdSP)

130 117
How can a constitutional amendment be unconstitutional?

Not much to add to that, but would suggest that historically a feature of marriage is the presumption of paternity. Now that presumption no longer meshed with physical reality California needs to immediately cease issuing BCs with a "father" listed. Males also need to lose their dependent deductions on taxes (and all other financial features related to marriage) as child rearing and preservation of familoy unit is no longer relevant to marriage.

IOW - Traditional family marriage; the good, bad, and ugly of it; has just been destroyed. You can have your "marriage certificate" but it means nothing.

Flip side, if you can prove paternity (and maternity, and guardianship) you can get all the old fashioned good bad ugly features, but you to take them all. Maybe we can call it something like "registered domestic family corporation".

Posted by: Druid at August 04, 2010 08:08 PM (Oe01r)

131 "Marriage laws came over as common law from the U.K. "

Exactly. As common law. That meant that if two people had a wedding ceremony and said they were married, in the eyes of the law, they were. They didn't need a permission slip from the state to do so.

Posted by: CTD at August 04, 2010 08:09 PM (6wODR)

132 I do not see discrimination in the bill since no one is allowed to marry someone of the opposite sex. The fact that heterosexuals do not want to marry someone of the same sex is immaterial.

Posted by: Dan Storm at August 04, 2010 08:24 PM (zztlr)

133 As common law. That meant that if two people had a wedding ceremony and
said they were married, in the eyes of the law, they were. They didn't
need a permission slip from the state to do so.

Your idea of the Common Law is somewhat mistaken. Perhaps you should do some research.

Posted by: Vic at August 04, 2010 08:30 PM (/jbAw)

134 sometimes I like to think that education is getting better in this country but it's getting so much worse.
I'm going to assume that you all read the transcripts to the trial so you could comment on this post sensibly. Of course if you had, you would have known that this ruling was a foregone conclusion unless Judge Walker could have ignored the paucity of evidence and testimony that the Prop 8 defenders presented. Wait scratch that, their defense was they didn't need evidence. Yes that's not a typo the defense said that evidence was not necessary because they had something better, conviction and a gut feeling. (this was also what their witness's said). Now assuming that you don't want judges making rulings on gut feelings and would like them to look at the evidence in the case you would understand the ruling. You would also probably want to keep Olson and Boies on retainer because they were brilliant.
Now all y'll are getting pretty hot under the collar about 'activist judges' and the constitution (you read the rest of the laws that have been passed in the 230 years we've been around right?) and that's pretty funny, because what gays are fighting for they see as a right and wouldn't you fight pretty hard for a right you thought you had? So your pettiness over the legal case is pretty odd. Plus not a single one of you seem to understand what makes us different from a democracy in which 51% of the people control 100% of the resources. In a republic certain positions are put in place to prevent the majority from making hasty or unwise decisions based on a mob mentality. that's why we are happy to have "activist judges' so even if someone convinces 51% of the population that your a child molester who killed an underage hooker in 1992 based on the gut feelings of the town psychic a judge can step in and put a stop to it. As for the judge's perceived sexuality it's kinda hypocritical to think that gays wouldn't have said the same thing if it was a straight judge making the ruling, but what gives either sexuality important if the case was decided on evidence that both sides presented fairly? The fact that this judge and the judge that ruled gay marriages legal in the first place are considered 'conservative' is ignored in the current heat of the trial. That both sides were very happy with the judge and said so in at the start of the trial.
As for many of your fears about polygamy, how is that a gay issue? Isn't that a straight issue you should work out for yourselves? Here's a hint try making your case about consenting adults and not about religious and historical convictions since historically polygamy has been widely practiced and was legal in the bible, as well as the koran and torah.
In this country we have so many children in foster care, we have so many gay youths living on the street and we have a gay culture that is hell bent on suicide because of cultural shunning. Why not see this as a possible fix to all three of those issues instead of worrying about bestiality and sex with fruit. You want the bath houses shut down? Encourage your gay kids...no EXPECT them to get married. You want less HIV infections, encourage monogamy and reward it. Stop acting on ignorance and try to see the human race as parts of a whole. Gays have been around for all time, in all cultures, and in all tribes. Even if you want to ignore the evidence and possibility that it might have a biological foundation, nothing has ever gotten rid of it. Not stake burning, lynching, gassing, concentration camps, electrical shock therapy, or even family abandonment. Now would be the time to examine what you are fighting. Gay marriage may or may not lead to more monogamy, but denying gays the social and political recognition of marriage sure isn't going to help either. Join the conservative view and give gays a chance to mature and develop isn't it time you stopped shunning them? Maybe some of them would even feel less compelled to act out if they didn't feel like everyone hated them and that society had their back.

Posted by: Tim Mc at August 04, 2010 08:37 PM (ZVCmH)

135 I reserve the right to shun.

Posted by: toby928 at August 04, 2010 08:43 PM (8/oOq)

136 because what gays are fighting for they see as a right and wouldn't you fight pretty hard for a right you thought you had?
An astonishingly stupid argument. So nowthe views of an advocacy group are dispositive? The KKK thought it had the right to lynch Negroes and other Republicans. NAMBLA is fighting for the right to queer off with boys.
The fact that those involved see something as a right doesn't make it a right.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 04, 2010 08:53 PM (L0i1S)

137 "Now, thankfully you can't also deny them the pursuit of happiness, a God
given inalienable right in this country. You are an American, aren't
you? You do know that, no?"

Ah, it all makes sense now. The judge based his ruling on the Declaration of Independence rather than the Constitution.

By the way, anyone who quotes "the pursuit of happiness" as a rationale for ANYTHING has revealed himself to be a subhuman retard.

Posted by: the peanut gallery at August 04, 2010 08:54 PM (NurK6)

138 @ Jay Guevara no Jay that's what the friggin trial was for *facepalm*

Posted by: Tim Mc at August 04, 2010 09:09 PM (ZVCmH)

139 You want less HIV infections, encourage monogamy and reward it.
("Less" => "fewer")
I'm sure mock "marriages" will make fags circumspect and monogamous. They'll probably cancel the Folsom Street and Up Your Alley Fairs in SF.
Gays have been around for all time, in all cultures, and in all tribes.
So fags have been around for a long time. So have pederasts and other child molesters, murderers, sadists, pimps, prostitutes, and other core Democrat constituencies. Does that make them OK too?

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 04, 2010 09:10 PM (L0i1S)

140 Maybe some of them would even feel less compelled to act out if they didn't feel like everyone hated them and that society had their back.
Then again, maybe not.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 04, 2010 09:12 PM (L0i1S)

141 My take: many Biblical injunctions (I'm a straight-up atheist, btw) arose from public health or public policy considerations, and were overlain with theology as an afterthought.
Prohibitions on murder, adultery, theft, etc.? Good idea to promote social stability and cohesion.
Prohibitions on eating pork? Good idea when trichinosis was a problem.
Prohibitions on eating shellfish? Good idea not to eat filter feeders when you live in a hot climate and lack refrigeration. Shellfish go off like a shot under those conditions.
Prohibitions on queering off? Good idea back when males queering off could spread disease like crazy - kinda like now, in fact. Given the chance, men will fuck anything that stands still long enough. It's in the genes. In normal relations, women apply the brakes; with fags, it's on, because no one applies the brakes. For this reason, fags a) spread disease, and b) are currently the major reservoirs of STDs. That's why fags are shunned, whereas female homosexuality is relatively accepted- it doesn't spread disease, and so meets with only mild disapproval. The average normal man has maybe a dozen or two partners in his life; for fags, that's a slow weekend.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 04, 2010 09:25 PM (L0i1S)

142 no Jay that's what the friggin trial was for *facepalm*
So for those who didn't a program, let's review: the CA Attorney General, who is a lunatic improbably enoughbeing recycledfor yet another term as governor and very much desires the fag vote and fag campaign contributions, goes through the motion before a judge who by some accounts is a fruit in his own right. *Foot to yourbutt, probably simultaneously kicking your boyfriend in the nuts*

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 04, 2010 09:30 PM (L0i1S)

143 Of course I can't argue this as well as David Boise did but if you want you can always take it up with him.

Whatever. You lost. The best you can come up with is that the judge is gay.

What-thefuck-ever.

This is a progressive country founded by progressives and matured by a progressive movement.

You go ahead and advocate restricting the lives of tax-paying Americans if you want.
I'm not coming back here. You're a bunch of perverted, hateful animals. Like talking to a brick wall.

Posted by: Jimmy-Joe at August 04, 2010 10:12 PM (vUdSP)

144 #133 Posted by: Patrick
"...So, the real issue was the word marriage..."

Bingo! The love that once dare not speak its name now will not STFU! No one cares what two consenting adults do behind closed doors. Gays already have equal rights in this country. People are generally tolerant of homosexual relationships, but its seems that most of the Gay population are not satisfied with that. They want everyone to be thrilled that they came out of the closet. No matter what. Homosexuals will always make up a small portion of the population. And when they speak of their "marriage", they heterosexual majority is going to stiffle a laugh, roll their eyes, and think Yeah Right...




Posted by: Truman Capote at August 04, 2010 10:38 PM (pELFl)

145 I am not homosexual, but I am willing to learn!

Posted by: Clarance Dillweed at August 04, 2010 10:40 PM (pELFl)

146 The judge actually cites case law where the court has already established an inherent right to marriage.

There is no creation of the "right of gay marriage," but the same right of marriage that exists between straight couples: a right to enter a contract and establish a household with another consenting adult. This was the finding based on the evidence presented at trial.

No evidence was shown that marriage between gays is in any way different from marriage between gays, and the evidence presented showed that it has no adverse effect on children, society, and the people married.

The amendment to the California constitution was ruled to violate the United States Constitution, specifically the XIV Amendment, which applies all rights and laws equally.

If you think the judge should have recused himself because he was gay, then all straight judges would have had to recuse themselves (since their right to marry wasn't infringed) as well.

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149 No evidence was shown that marriage between gays is in any way different
from marriage between gays, and the evidence presented showed that it
has no adverse effect on children, society, and the people married.

And no such evidence is needed. The state has the right to refuse to recognize a ridiculous, socially useless arrangement between same-sex couples just as it has the right to refuse to recognize the relationship between me and my Webber Grill (which has the added benefit of not being an AIDS factory). It doesn't need a reason. It can refuse for completely arbitrary and capricious reasons (you know, because like the people voted that way and such antiquated stuff).

Every time you retards walk into this argument you pretend that the other restrictions on marriage -- number of participants, exclusivity, bloodline separation -- are obviously above board but, somehow, this one particular restriction is magically in violation of an amendment that's been around for about 150 years (and we never noticed). Oh, I forgot -- restrictions on inbreeding are somehow constitutional because of "health reasons". Yeah, that's in the Constitution somewhere I'm sure.

Cretins.

Posted by: VJay at August 05, 2010 10:27 AM (gQ+XA)

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Social degredation and pissing all over the rule of law are only "progressive" in the Stalinist sense. You assholes are anything but "progressive". You're moral nihilists and regressive Luddites. In your dream world, we're all packed into urban shitholes, riding on trains through fields of windmills -- just like in the 19th century -- with one set of laws for the rich and "the oppressed" and another set of laws for the sucker proles that fuel the slave state.

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