Why I'm Really Pessimistic Right Now

A Tweeter wrote to me that Fire Dog Lake only has the Democrats at 203 votes, and that out of all the "undecided" votes, Republicans only need 7 to block the bill, while the Democrats need a large fraction of what's left.

That doesn't comfort me in the least. That kind of thinking is a sort of probabilistic thing where someone's saying, "Gee, it would be hard to almost run the table on all these independent trials." Like flipping coins -- if you have to get 20 heads to come up on thirty filps, that seems less likely than failing to get all 20.

But that's the wrong way to look at it, because these are not independent trials. They're not independent flips of the coin. All of these votes are in fact interrelated, and will tend to break the same way because they're all animated by a similar set of circumstances and influences.

It's no less likely that the Democrats will get 20 of 30 undecided votes than, say, they'll get 217 of their 250 votes (or whatever) on a big bill. You can't just say "Gee, it seems unlikely they'd win such a large fraction of these votes." It's perfectly likely.

We know these votes are being arranged:

So why did he oppose it in the first place? It looks as though Boccieri got a pass from Nancy Pelosi the first time around to protect his election prospects this fall. The 16th CD in Ohio elected him in 2008 as its first Democratic Representative since 1951. In a year when Ohio went to Barack Obama, John McCain won this district, 50/48.

The Democrats game is to get to 216 while exposing as few as possible vulnerable Democrats to having to vote "Yes." Even some Democrats supposedly "against" the bill, like Boccieri used to be, are actually for it, in that they wish the caucus to prevail... they just don't want to cast a bill in favor of it. They want other Democrats to vote for the bill, so that they get the best of both worlds: The measure passes, and so they're not despised by the nutroots as having blocked the bill, and yet they can tell their constituents they voted Nay.

My fear is that all this "undecided" crap is really just an argument about Democrats about who is the most vulnerable -- that Democrats are largely agreed on the idea that the bill should pass, but are now arguing among themselves about which of them should take the hit and vote Yea, and which should be spared and allowed to vote Nay. So many of them are posturing as long as possible to convince Nancy Pelosi to allow them to vote Nay -- or even Present -- but if the word comes down from the top their votes are needed, they'll cast the Yea as instructed.

Of course, this is a bit like a platoon charging the beach at Normandy. The platoon may agree, as a group, that the beach may be taken. But they may disagree among themselves about who will be first out of the boat (and virtually guaranteed to be killed). And, since Democrats' courage doesn't quite equal that of the troops at Normandy, maybe those selected to charge first into the fire will wind up balking.

But it is my fear that this has all been settled, pretty much, behind the scenes, as far as vote number, and now the lobbying is just over who must be part of that 216 and who gets to hang in the back of the boat as one of the lucky 34.

Dina Titus (D-NV) Back to Yes After Pretending to be Undecided: Drew just wrote this in an email. That is congruent with my thinking -- she tried to hold out to win her Get Out of Voting Free card, but Granny Rictus McBotoxImplants rejected her plea, and so she dutifully becomes one of the Unlucky Vulnerable Democrats "Volunteered" By Nancy Pelosi for Her Suicide Squad.


Posted by: Ace at 03:10 PM



Comments

1 Oh dear.. time to put the pudding away?

Posted by: Mjim at March 19, 2010 03:13 PM (mMdWG)

2 who gets to hang in the back of the boat

Hopefully they all hang in November.

Posted by: kansas at March 19, 2010 03:14 PM (mka2b)

3 Like flipping coins -- if you have to get 20 heads to come up on thirty
filps, that seems less likely than failing to get all 20.


Heads......heads.......heads......

Posted by: Rosencrantz at March 19, 2010 03:14 PM (I/MqP)

4 The good news, of course, is that this smokes out a wide range of Nancy's moles, so they can be blasted in November.

If they're going to pass this thing, at least let them commit suicide doing it.


Posted by: mrkwong at March 19, 2010 03:14 PM (G8Eo0)

5 Ace is such an Eeyore.

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:14 PM (0fq7b)

6 In that case, Ace, the only solution is to throw them all out, whether they're playing for the voters or not. We just assume anyone with a "D" after their name is the enemy.

Posted by: Keith Arnold at March 19, 2010 03:14 PM (Jdtsu)

7 Right. And we need to move on from worrying about the vote to planning what to do next. I'm an old lady but I'm ready for the barricades and even for jail. Let's go, folks, we need a plan.

Posted by: dulce and her zimmer frame at March 19, 2010 03:14 PM (HFdqI)

8 Politics is show business for ugly people, and there are no people uglier than Pelosi and Reid.

Posted by: huerfano at March 19, 2010 03:15 PM (gLSaO)

9 Plus, Harry Reid has promised a second vote on "public option" after it passes.


Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 19, 2010 03:15 PM (mR7mk)

10 Yeah, this is going to go.

Even if everything today is Dem psyops, which it probably isn't, it's effective psyops, and will sway the 2 or three that will make the difference here

Of course, if they can't take a vote, it would be impossible to pass.

How about a peaceful occupation of the floor of the House of Reps?

Posted by: s'moron at March 19, 2010 03:16 PM (UaxA0)

11 Ace, the way things are looking this year, a 'no' vote might soften the blow, but a whole lot of Dems are gonna be in trouble just cause they're Dems. Yeah, I'm sure there are CYA votes, but I'm not convinced that's going to save a whole lot of them from getting drawn under by the undertow from this Titanic.

Posted by: nickless at March 19, 2010 03:16 PM (MMC8r)

12 "...I'm ready for the barricades and even for jail."

We are the dead.

Posted by: Winston at March 19, 2010 03:16 PM (o5vMm)

13 so in postponing the trip to his homeland, is Juggal-O setting aside time for a victory lap?

i don't think I can stomach that

Posted by: negentropy at March 19, 2010 03:17 PM (27KAF)

14 11
Ace, the way things are looking this year, a 'no' vote might soften the
blow, but a whole lot of Dems are gonna be in trouble just cause
they're Dems. Yeah, I'm sure there are CYA votes, but I'm not
convinced that's going to save a whole lot of them from getting drawn
under by the undertow from this Titanic.


Posted by: nickless at March 19, 2010 03:16 PM (MMC8r)
Yep, I have to agree. To be a donkey next year is to have a bullseye on your back.

Posted by: Mike H at March 19, 2010 03:18 PM (o48kc)

15 Any word on the march on Saturday?

Posted by: dib at March 19, 2010 03:18 PM (nQYId)

16 This is what I am afraid of. Stupak's group is crumbling and DeFazio was not, and never will be a NO vote.

What can men do against such reckless hate?

Posted by: sharrukin at March 19, 2010 03:18 PM (593B8)

17 Ok, so let's agree they pass this monstrosity. What's next? We can't just accept this and move on. They have bigger plans, so we need to stay focused and continue to beat the drum. Our objective should be to gain control of the House and Senate. Obama will be satisfied to have gotten this passed, so he'll be happy with a one-term Presidency. This can be overturned!!!

Posted by: mastour at March 19, 2010 03:18 PM (I8H0c)

18 Yep, I agree. But I think their missing something in their thought process: the electoral wave that will capsize the boat and have them all drown.

It will pass, but if you have a D by your name, there will be a commercial with you next to Nancy or Harry.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at March 19, 2010 03:19 PM (ympF8)

19 We really really need to pass this bill, for the children!

Posted by: Some random Sycaruse booster at March 19, 2010 03:19 PM (w9bVp)

20 Ace says that Republicans are Nazis manning machine guns to kill Americans!!!

Posted by: Leftard at March 19, 2010 03:19 PM (2p0e3)

21 "We just assume anyone with a "D" after their name is the enemy."

Well that's certainly true. No changes there.

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:19 PM (0fq7b)

22 What do you mean "right now"?

Heh. I kid!
But seriously...why so blue, Panda Bear?

Posted by: Bordo at March 19, 2010 03:19 PM (4YIfg)

23 Perhaps the undecideds are weighing the chances of life and literal death. I can't help but believe there are murderous nutjobs loading up.

Posted by: Antimatter at March 19, 2010 03:19 PM (gbCNS)

24
November is approaching. Funny - the dems in my state are already playing cover with their TV campaign ads.

It's unbelievable how disgusting and disingenuous these freaky left-wing tax and spend your future away - leftists really are.

The dems are counting on a stupid populous and a nerdy unwilling to fight R-party.

We shall see.

One thing the left cannot escape is the fact that they are killing the economy and people are pissed. They are busting the defiict and expecting their fawning press to play cover for them.

It's time for everyone to get off their butts and do something. Get involved. Send in 5 bucks to a candidate that can help. Something.






Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 19, 2010 03:19 PM (0fzsA)

25 16
This is what I am afraid of. Stupak's group is crumbling and DeFazio was not, and never will be a NO vote.

What can men do against such reckless hate?


Posted by: sharrukin at March 19, 2010 03:18 PM (593B
Cry Havoc and let loose the dogs of war!

Posted by: Mike H at March 19, 2010 03:19 PM (o48kc)

26 Itappears that it's not time to start sucking each other's cocks. Is that correct?

Posted by: conscious, but incoherent at March 19, 2010 03:19 PM (Vu6sl)

27 But I think their missing something in their thought process: the
electoral wave that will capsize the boat and have them all drown.

I don't think they care.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 19, 2010 03:20 PM (mR7mk)

28 I feel like The Chicken™.

Posted by: dogfish at March 19, 2010 03:20 PM (sGaoh)

29 There is some shit that even we won't eat, but this isn't it. This shit tastes great!

Posted by: Shit- eating progressive at March 19, 2010 03:20 PM (w9bVp)

30 "This can be overturned!!!"

Yawn.

When and where has a nationalized healthcare scheme been overturned?

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:20 PM (0fq7b)

31
dang - populace.


Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 19, 2010 03:21 PM (0fzsA)

32 27
But I think their missing something in their thought process: the
electoral wave that will capsize the boat and have them all drown.

I don't think they care.


Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 19, 2010 03:20 PM (mR7mk)
You could make a guess that they are counting on Immigration Reform to create 20 million more Donkey votes.

Posted by: Mike H at March 19, 2010 03:21 PM (o48kc)

33 There is some shit I will not eat unless Nancy axes me again.

Posted by: Shit- eating Democrat representative at March 19, 2010 03:21 PM (w9bVp)

34 Every Inch of this beach, has been presighted, you stay here, and your a dead man!

Posted by: Captain Pelosi at March 19, 2010 03:22 PM (PD1tk)

35 Dear American men,

Sack DC....tell them to retire or hang.

It is your duty and obligation.

Signed, your loving wives and children

Posted by: pam at March 19, 2010 03:22 PM (h8R9p)

36 By DICK MORRIS EILEEN MCGANNPublished on DickMorris.com on March 19, 2010 From a top level source in the House comes the news that the Democrats are still short of the 216 votes they need to pass Obamacare. They have decided, however, to go for broke on Sunday and attempt to pass it whether or not they have enough support. They feel that only by forcing a vote can the force members off the fence. They hope that by employing all means at their disposal, they can round up enough votes for passage. But, if they don't have the votes, they will allow the measure to be defeated. One source called it a "suicide run."

Posted by: Dan at March 19, 2010 03:22 PM (1jzSs)

37 Let's bear in mind, this isn't a dark ritual that willwake dead Cthulhu from his dreaming in R'yleh. The world isn't doomed to eternal darkness Sunday night if the bill passes. There do exist options outside of secession and fleeing into bomb shelters to overturn this thing. And since the Dems have used all manner of legal chicanery to pass it, we can use all manner of legal chicanery to destroy it.
We must be as relentless in overturning it as they were in passing it. And we can't except mealy-mouthed bullshit from our Republicans who will let it stand. We need to make sure they understand a core platform of the Republican Party will be to undo this bill.

Posted by: Zuggs at March 19, 2010 03:22 PM (TpXEI)

38 CYA voting schemes do not make for victories, Ace. The Democrats are hurting themselves with this strategy, and using up the last of the rank and file's good will. (To say nothing of the irate voters back home.) It's as if Obaka and the Wicked Witch have decided that this vote and this vote only is what they need for "legacy", "hope and change", and then they can coast to the fall & hand out the Spendulus $$ to embattled Yes voters. It may seem like a victory to them, but it will be a Pyrrhic victory for sure if/when they lose control of the House.

Posted by: exdem13 at March 19, 2010 03:23 PM (lYKj1)

39 Dude, I won't eat this shit without some government cheese.

Posted by: Shit- eating Hispanic at March 19, 2010 03:23 PM (w9bVp)

40 I'm all for civil disobedience... but what exactly do we disobey? Seriously.

Posted by: Bat Chain Puller at March 19, 2010 03:23 PM (SCcgT)

41 This is exactly right.

Theirs is not to reason why, theirs but to do and die. Into the valley of death rode the 226

Posted by: nine coconuts at March 19, 2010 03:23 PM (DHNp4)

42 "It's time for everyone to get off their butts and do something. Get
involved. Send in 5 bucks to a candidate that can help. Something."

While that may help with future causes, it won't help with this one. Nonetheless, of course what you're saying is good.

Rush Limbaugh put it well at the end of his show.

The conservatives -- MANY OF WHOM WERE COMMENTING ON THIS SITE -- who were talking about how there's no difference between the GOP and Democrats, how they're just going to stay home, etc., if they can't have Fred Thompson or whoever their preference was... these people...

caused nationalized healthcare to become a reality in the USA, if this passes.

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:23 PM (0fq7b)

43 All of this is like watching a really horrific national Jerry Springer. The left thrives on chaos and dirt and cheating and stealing.

Posted by: beasn at March 19, 2010 03:23 PM (NWZhH)

44 Cry Havoc and let loose the dogs of war!


Posted by: Mike H at March 19, 2010 03:19 PM (o48kc)
That's the battle cry scheduled for the demonstration in DC. Or maybe 'Now for wrath, now for ruin and the red dawn!'

Posted by: sharrukin at March 19, 2010 03:24 PM (593B8)

45 The pattern is obvious:

1. Take over mortgages -> Control where people live
2. Take over cars -> Control what people drive
3. Take over health -> Control where people go when they are sick
4. Take over education -> Control what people think
5. Next - Energy - Cap trade

Posted by: Mike H at March 19, 2010 03:24 PM (o48kc)

46
This can be over-turned. We must get super-majorities and re-take the white house in 2012. Then, there is a chance.

of course the left will whine "the rightwingers are taking away your health care"

Reality: the left isn't counting on this sad fact: HCR tax-payer funded monstrosity will be unpopular enough to do it.


Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 19, 2010 03:24 PM (0fzsA)

47

Revamped student loan bill tucked into massive
health bill


THEY'RE NOT EVEN WAITING???

This shit is PART of the demonpass monstrosity???

Posted by: s'moron at March 19, 2010 03:24 PM (UaxA0)

48 Ace, unfortunately, has this correct.

The hope is, as Orrin Hatch commented, in the Senate's ability to bounce this back again and increase the pain threshold.

Posted by: Inverse Agonist at March 19, 2010 03:25 PM (GpQZ/)

49 Come on Ace don't give up the fight. Even if it does pass, we are right and the public is with us so the fight will go on.

Posted by: Mal at March 19, 2010 03:25 PM (Z+qzA)

50 Barry promised me a single-payer side of tofu fries with my shit. Mmmm mmmm mmmm.

Posted by: Shit- eating Jane Hamsher at March 19, 2010 03:25 PM (w9bVp)

51 This shit is PART of the demonpass
monstrosity???

Control who gets to go to medical/nursing/administration school.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 19, 2010 03:26 PM (mR7mk)

52 >>..arguing among themselves about which of them should take the hit and
vote Yea, and which should be spared and allowed to vote Nay<<

You're probably right. At this point, it's not who's going to vote yes, it's who's going to get the right to vote no and have a chance to get re-elected.

But 216 of the Dems will have to take the hit. And they will. The Dems will be paying for this vote for years to come, and paying dearly.

It's Obama's Waterloo in any event.

Posted by: SlaveDog at March 19, 2010 03:26 PM (H6Jyg)

53
How's this for a sign?

Socialism Is Not America's Pre-Existing Condition

Posted by: This is Wallace Shawn at March 19, 2010 03:26 PM (F2qjY)

54 Ok, so let's agree they pass this monstrosity. What's next? We can't just accept this and move on.

Oh, but they will, and are counting on the ignorance and short attention spans of the serfs. Not to mention what amnesty will do for them.

Posted by: beasn at March 19, 2010 03:26 PM (NWZhH)

55 No doubt this is true for some of them. Murphy in NY 20 (fucking Jim Tedisco!) is going to either vote yes if he has to or no if Nancy let's him stay.

Thing is a guy like DeFazio and Stupak aren't doing that dance.

Are there enough of them? I have my doubts but much like when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor...it isn't over!

Posted by: DrewM. at March 19, 2010 03:26 PM (9B5OK)

56
Or this one?

Time To Reform Congress!

Posted by: This is Wallace Shawn at March 19, 2010 03:27 PM (F2qjY)

57 If you think I am moving to a communist country, you're crazy.

Posted by: a mexican at March 19, 2010 03:27 PM (ympF8)

58 Ace a lot of Dems are not going to be elected no matter how they vote. Any of those that vote NO will receive zilch in party support either for election or jobs or whatever. Definitely better to vote YES and not get elected than to vote NO and not get elected. It's not like voting NO is going to get them any GOP votes OR anything else.

Posted by: Andy Rand at March 19, 2010 03:27 PM (mhD2v)

59 "This can be over-turned. We must get super-majorities and re-take the white house in 2012. Then, there is a chance."

You're delusional.

Not that the GOP will never have super-majorities, that's possible.

You're delusional if you think you'd get enough GOP votes even with super-majorities to actually overturn coverage for Grandma's kidney stones once such coverage is enacted.

No party will dare. (Not a super-majority anyhow.)

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:27 PM (0fq7b)

60 There was a period like maybe less than two weeks ago. It was quiet, real quiet, too quiet. Ace was MIA for days. There was really nothing going on so it didn't matter. That is when they finely crafted this takeover of health care and student loans.

Posted by: curious at March 19, 2010 03:28 PM (p302b)

61 Go Oranj!

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama - The 'H' is silent! at March 19, 2010 03:28 PM (8XjJP)

62
60. Hope! ok - yeah it's a long shot.


Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 19, 2010 03:29 PM (0fzsA)

63 If we've lost Ace...we've lost the country.
**sigh**

Posted by: dananjcon at March 19, 2010 03:29 PM (pr+up)

64 What I don't understand is why the NRCC or some such group hasn't quietly funded polling on this issue in the districts of pressured democrats.

Unless, as I suspect, the swing districts are all underwater for democrats no matter how they vote; which they *must* be if the generic is +10R as Rassmussen has it and given that Dem support is still overwhelming in the democrat bastions, the Black and Liberal cross-sections.

Posted by: Inverse Agonist at March 19, 2010 03:30 PM (GpQZ/)

65 Can we pleese gets us sum of deh braket thred?

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama - The 'H' is silent! at March 19, 2010 03:30 PM (8XjJP)

66 "It's Obama's Waterloo in any event."

More like Obama's Trafalgar.

(Yes, it pains me to draw an analogy with the great Lord Horatio Nelson, who died fighting in his great victory.)

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:30 PM (0fq7b)

67 Rush for president!

Posted by: Antimatter at March 19, 2010 03:30 PM (gbCNS)

68 As long as they cover my child sex slaves, I'm all for the bill!

Posted by: palin steele at March 19, 2010 03:31 PM (tcMQZ)

69 You're delusional if you think you'd get enough GOP
votes even with super-majorities to actually overturn coverage for
Grandma's kidney stones once such coverage is enacted.No party will dare. (Not a super-majority anyhow.)

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:27 PM (0fq7b)
Thing is, coverage won't be available for 3-4 years...only the taxes kick in immediately. That may be the difference between overturning this new entitlement and all the others.

Posted by: Tami at March 19, 2010 03:32 PM (VuLos)

70 I agree with ace, I am not optimistic because to win we have to depend on democrats and that is a losing proposition.
The Washington Post has different numbers than those being bandied about though. They show the dems being really far from having the votes with 54 still undecided and the we picked up one vote since yesterday. The problem with the posts count is that we need 8 votes and only 6 of the udecided voted no last time.
http://tinyurl.com/yzcwt78

Posted by: robtr at March 19, 2010 03:32 PM (fwSHf)

71
Are there any places left on earth that aren't communist?
The US, after Sunday, is gone.


The Soviets won! Gramsci won!
Hugo Chavez Won! Castro won!
Che won! Mao won!
Obama won! Pelosi won!

Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 19, 2010 03:32 PM (0fzsA)

72 36 Dear American men, Sack DC....tell them to retire or hang.It is your duty and obligation.Signed, your loving wives and children
Posted by: pam at March 19, 2010 03:22 PM (h8R9p)
If I wasn't physically disabled, I'd be the first one there!

Posted by: conscious, but incoherent at March 19, 2010 03:32 PM (Vu6sl)

73 Christoph.
My mayen!
Hows abouts da hi fibe for duh greathest Excumative Evah?
Go Cukes!

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama - The 'H' is silent! at March 19, 2010 03:32 PM (8XjJP)

74 Christoph,
Acting like a cynical defeatist is completely useless.
If you believe we're all delusional,follow your own advice andjust give up trying to convince us. You're just wasting time.

Posted by: Zuggs at March 19, 2010 03:33 PM (TpXEI)

75 "so in postponing the trip to his homeland, is Juggal-O setting aside time for a victory lap?"

No, Barky is sticking around to offer administration jobs (not requiring senate confirmation) as an enticement to those who are first out of the boat. Otherwise everybody would just stay in the boat.

Posted by: OldBrokeDick at March 19, 2010 03:34 PM (tICTz)

76 Keep manning those God dammed guns people!
We may lose. So what? Say a prayer to St. Jude and keep going people.The fix was in from the beginning. That is what they want, pessimism and defeatism. I will not give them that satisfaction.
Even if this abomination passes on Sunday, we shall not go quietly into the night. Let them know that this is not the end, but only the beginning. Everyone fights, nobody quits!

Posted by: Jollyroger at March 19, 2010 03:34 PM (or6Aq)

77 For Nancy Pelosi, to pray to the protector of the unborn, St. Joseph is galling. It staggers the imagination how her thought processes must work. For example:

1. Let's fund abortions for all those cretins that want to have unprotected sex. Let's make it possible to kill unborn children.

2. St Joseph, protector of the unborn, please help pass a bill that will destroy life

She has to be mentally incompetent to think like that.

Posted by: Mike H at March 19, 2010 03:34 PM (o48kc)

78 IN ILLINOIS Melissa Bean is vulnerable. Bill Foster vulnerable.

Lipinski has a lot of pressure from constituents. They protest outside his office. Plus, he truly is an anti-abortion guy.

The Dem machine protects him; but who knows if he continues his NO stance.

Posted by: Jeff at March 19, 2010 03:35 PM (HScbI)

79
If the governmetn continues to take over the banks, our education, grocery stores,, insurance, all other forms of distribution and communication and energy - we are a communist nation.

I had no idea that in Cleveland, they have government run grocery stores.

“Why do some cities thrive while others decay? One reason is that some
politicians smother their cities with the unintended consequences of
their grand visions, while others have the good sense to limit
government power. . . . But the politicians haven’t learned. They still
think government is the key to revitalization. While Indianapolis
privatized services, Cleveland prefers state capitalism. It owns and
operates a big grocery store, the West Side Market. Typical of
government, it’s open only four days a week, and two of those days it
closes at 4 p.m. The city doesn’t maintain the market very well.
Despite those cost savings, the city manages to lose money running the
market. It also loses money running golf courses.” -- John Stossel

Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 19, 2010 03:35 PM (0fzsA)

80 Let's bear in mind, this isn't a dark ritual that will wake dead Cthulhu from his dreaming in R'yleh.

Ia! Ia! Fthagn Pelosi!

Posted by: Wretched followers, AKA Democrats at March 19, 2010 03:35 PM (Ko4Av)

81 @43: The lesser of two evils is still evil. Whether we voted for Progressive John McCain or Progressive Barack Obama, we would have ended up here eventually.

Posted by: Lone Marauder at March 19, 2010 03:35 PM (/bVuS)

82 I have an idea! We should all lie down in a row with our asses in the air. I mean, why not? Game over, man!

Man up you sissies.

Posted by: Bordo at March 19, 2010 03:35 PM (4YIfg)

83 It's as if Obaka and the Wicked Witch have decided that this vote and this vote only is what they need for "legacy", "hope and change", and then they can coast to the fall hand out the Spendulus $$ to embattled Yes voters.
Posted by: exdem13 at March 19, 2010 03:23 PM (lYKj1)
It's more grave than that. It's no longer about winning on the issue of ObamaCare. It's come down to this: Obama, Pelosi and Reid see that passing ObamaCare is a necessary condition for their political survival, if not a sufficient one. If ObamaCare wins, they don't necessarily believe that everything will be biscuits and gravy through the 2012 elections -- but they are convinced that if ObamaCare fails, they're collectively and individually finished, as in lame ducks with their political power reduced to a negligible level.
For them, a suicide run makes sense, because the slim chance of surviving it is better than zero chance of surviving the failure even to get to a vote.

Posted by: stuiec at March 19, 2010 03:36 PM (7AOgy)

84 If this shit passes, it means civil war. I am not going to wait around and pretend like it's all going to pass away come the next election cycle and things will be back to normal. There will be more laws (or as they are playing it, edicts from on high), and more and more until they do away with free speech and then start openly confiscating our money and property directly. This is 1934 Germany and we are all the Jews. We've seen this show and frankly I have no intention to stick around and see the ending.

Fuck these progressives. THE TIME IS NOW.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at March 19, 2010 03:36 PM (9Cooa)

85
70 Tami
Thing is, coverage won't be available for 3-4 years...only the taxes
kick in immediately. That may be the difference between overturning
this new entitlement and all the others.

It's a gamble. The left play hard. Will the American people wake up? I think they will in November and maybe even in 2012. Obama doesn't have anyone but the hard-left base for support. So yes - there is hope.



Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 19, 2010 03:36 PM (0fzsA)

86 I didn't say you're all delusional. I believe you are delusional, and she was delusional, but not all.

Further, her fool's hope is counterproductive, not helpful.

Hoping for future GOP super-majorities filled with courageous stout politicians willing to overturn a national healthcare scheme is just madness.

Yeah, it could happen. And Barney Frank could secretly want to lay Megan Fox. But I doubt it.

The time to stop it, if any, is now as I've been saying for months. Stopping it after enactment is exceedingly unlikely.

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:37 PM (0fq7b)

87 Ia! Ia! Fthagn Pelosi!
Posted by: Wretched followers, AKA Democrats at March 19, 2010 03:35 PM (Ko4Av)
It isn't Botox. It's her fish eyes and scales growing and stretching her human-skin mask from the inside.

Posted by: stuiec at March 19, 2010 03:37 PM (7AOgy)

88 Thing is, coverage won't be available for 3-4 years...only the taxes
kick in immediately. That may be the difference between overturning
this new entitlement and all the others.

I don't think.."hey you've been paying these taxes for a couple of years but never mind all the stuff you think you are about to get for it" is a political winner.

Besides doesn't the stuff like an end to pre-existing conditions, recisions and lifetime caps kick in sooner?

If you undo that and ditch the mandate, then we are left with a worse system.

I hope they stick with the Slaughter Solution and it dies in court before it ever gets going.

Posted by: DrewM. at March 19, 2010 03:37 PM (9B5OK)

89 On that Boccierri A-hole:

"So why did he oppose it in the first place? It looks as though Boccieri got a pass from Nancy Pelosi the first time around to protect his election prospects this fall. The 16th CD in Ohio elected him in 2008 as its first Democratic Representative since 1951. In a year when Ohio went to Barack Obama, John McCain won this district, 50/48."

If Nancy can't cut him a Pass on this and is forcing him to fall on the sword, then it is in our favor.

Posted by: Gerry Owen at March 19, 2010 03:38 PM (4Hy88)

90 You're delusional if you think you'd get enough GOP votes even with super-majorities to actually overturn coverage for Grandma's kidney stones once such coverage is enacted.

So, not necessarily. The bill is tax front-loaded in a positive way for Republicans in 2012.

The frame is: Obamacare has been enacted for 2 years; the tax increases, economic hit on employers and bureaucracy has begun. The only immediate benefits (out to 2014) are negligible: catastrophic coverage for pre-existers.

Yet, any pain or inconvenience (which happens often w/ healthcare) is now Obamacares'. It's not a bad narrative, given that the democrats have given it to us.

Posted by: Inverse Agonist at March 19, 2010 03:38 PM (GpQZ/)

91 Lipinski said today he is a definite no. course he is a democrat, so check the expiration date.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at March 19, 2010 03:38 PM (ympF8)

92 I've been turning this thing over and over in my mind and I'll be damned if I can figure out how ANYONE, yes, even the most cynical committed lefty, thinks this thing is a positive.
Have we really reached the point where one side of a serious public policy debate totally ignores the fiscal implications of what they champion after ALL that we have witnessed on that front in the past three years or so? Really? The President has couched his position (at times) in the "bend the cost curve" meme and the CBO says the health care share of GDP under this plan will rise to 21 percent from 17 percent. Everyone concedes insurance premiums will rise. Only the deranged believe this will not harm hiring...when real unemployment is around 17 percent.
But I digress...the United States will add a minimum of ten trillion dollars in debt over the next decade--in the rosiest of scenarios and suggestions that this legislation will reduce that amount are laughable since a) it took admirable mathematical contortions to wring 130 billion in imaginary deficit reduction and b) those contortions did not include the permanent doctor fix to Medicare--which we all knew would happen. These "results" are only possible with a huge tax mandate, again at a time when the federal government is already the insatiable credit sink crowding out private investment.
We are badly--critically in need of some steely-eyed realistic leadershipand instead we have what can only be described as incompetent and conscience-less charlatans at the helm. I was deep in despair after TARP and the stimulus. I havefound anew depth today. Congress is on the verge of deliberately harming the country.That, my friends, is unprecedented.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 19, 2010 03:38 PM (B+qrE)

93 Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 19, 2010 03:35 PM (0fzsA)
A number of states run the liquor stores. Maybe the notion is that state-run ABC stores help reduce alcohol consumption through sheer inefficiency.

Posted by: stuiec at March 19, 2010 03:39 PM (7AOgy)

94 "so in postponing the trip to his homeland, is Juggal-O setting aside time for a victory lap?"
I wants too watch dem Seeraquese orunjmen.
I gotsem fasin' Tuskegee in teh eleet ate!

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama - The 'H' is silent! at March 19, 2010 03:39 PM (8XjJP)

95 If passed, this thing won't be overturned. That's part of the left's logic here, from Obama on down. Even if they're voted out (and many of them will be), their victory will live on. They'll go down in history as The Ones who finally, at long last, achieved the great Democrat Holy Grail of nationalized health care.

The Repubs won't have the stones to repeal it. They won't. And if they try, they'll get the same treatment that anyone who tries to change Social Security gets now.

How many huge government entitlements, once in place, ever go away?

The One will be triumphant. Another history-making first.

It makes me ill just thinking about it, but we're probably fucked.




Posted by: tsj017 at March 19, 2010 03:40 PM (4YUWF)

96 Even if it passes, there will be years of legal challenges from those states that still have steel in their spines.

I vow to fight will all possible resources until they drag me off the the Ted Kennedy memorial re-eduction camp.

Posted by: Mike H at March 19, 2010 03:40 PM (o48kc)

97 Obama and his fellow marxists need to back the fuck up, i'm sick of this shit and I have nothing to lose by engaging in actions that others may find unacceptably risky.
it's never wise to push a person until they feel they have nothing to lose.

Posted by: shoey at March 19, 2010 03:40 PM (Ed9Xn)

98 "You're delusional if you think you'd get enough GOP votes even with
super-majorities to actually overturn coverage for Grandma's kidney
stones once such coverage is enacted.

No party will dare."

For one, there is a delay before any "benefits" are given out that we can try to use to our advantage.
If that fails, we can try to undo it incrementally if nothing else.

Yeah, this thing sucks pretty damn bad. Civil disobedience bad. But it isn't set in stone.

Posted by: Randy at March 19, 2010 03:40 PM (zQKSr)

99 "If this shit passes, it means civil war. I am not going to wait around
and pretend like it's all going to pass away come the next election
cycle and things will be back to normal."

While I don't support such action, I think it's actually less delusional than believing a 2012 super-majority will overturn ObamaCare.

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:41 PM (0fq7b)

100 Then Ace,
ALL these late Undecided need to F'ng HANG November no matter HOW they vote if this passes.

Posted by: Gerry Owen at March 19, 2010 03:41 PM (4Hy88)

101 WarPigs - Cry Hamhock and let slip the hogs of war........

Posted by: LGoPs at March 19, 2010 03:41 PM (v/rEn)

102 Christoph,

I think you're wrong. I've lived and used National Health-care in the UK. It is as advertised and you get what you pay for. Once mom and pop 6-pack see the answer to everything is a pill, they'll be ready for this thing to die a quick death.

Posted by: mastour at March 19, 2010 03:41 PM (I8H0c)

103

And Barney Frank could secretly want to lay Megan Fox.

I don't know. Her hips ARE pretty narrow.


Posted by: s'moron at March 19, 2010 03:41 PM (UaxA0)

104
94

A number of states run the liquor stores. Maybe the notion is that
state-run ABC stores help reduce alcohol consumption through sheer
inefficiency.

I guess I've been living under a rock while communism has seeped into our once great nation.


Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 19, 2010 03:42 PM (0fzsA)

105 Politicians hide themselves away

They only started the war

Why should they go out to fight?

They leave that role to the poor

Posted by: Mike H at March 19, 2010 03:42 PM (o48kc)

106 I think Ace's assessment is correct. Mc Botox is past bribing with kickbacks and appointments. At this point those vampires are merely deciding who will be permitted to actually vote for what their constituents want. (i.e NO)

And those will NOT be the ones coming from more conservative districts (who will have zero chance at re-election, regardless of their vote)

Its not over till the fat lady sings, but she is definitely in the wings, warming up.

I'm praying for two million to show up in DC this weekend. If there's any way you can, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, get to Washington for the rally on Saturday. Surround that damn capitol building and remind these parasites who they work for.

Posted by: AtlasMugged at March 19, 2010 03:42 PM (PbkDy)

107 BTW- Repeal will never happen.

The odds of going from 41 Senators to 60 in two cycles is essentially impossible.

When, if ever, have the Republicans had 60 seats? The 1920s?

Posted by: DrewM. at March 19, 2010 03:42 PM (9B5OK)

108 So we're just supposed to go whimper in the corner? People are talking about this everywhere, I'm not so sure their memories are so short, not this time. If Obama the Dems keep employing these tactics to pass their legislation, they most certainly won't. It may come to violence before the end.

But I'm not going to let them force me to buy their health insurance. I would rather end up in prison than be forced to die a wretched death in a corridor, like those poor souls in the UK. If that's what it comes down to, in the end, then that's what I'll do.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 19, 2010 03:43 PM (J46Fi)

109 This is a comment I just left at Dan Riehl's. I didn't know Ace would be so down today, so I'll repost it here - Ace is dredging up some similar passions:

If I might offer two thoughts (and I apologize in advance for length):


1. Current Congressional procedural anomalies aside, there has
ALWAYS been a close, acrimonious divide in American politics. The
harkenings to the more civil days gone by are the conjurings of people
ignorant of history. Remember the Tories in the American Revolution and
their allegiance to the Crown? They were a significant portion of the
population, and their undeclared sympathizers brought the Tory numbers
even higher. (Recall that a liberty-minded public prevailed over the
Tories, too.) Also, spend some time reading historical issues of the
Congressional Record: There's acrimony aplenty - and even Congressional
chamber violence, if you look (there's an incident where one Senator
clubbed another over the head with a fire iron, and several more
accounts of fisticuffs breaking out in chamber). So the idea that
current passions are unprecedented and deviate from some mannered norm
holds no water. While I know this wasn't really even addressed a point of this post, it gives context to our current political landscape: We have always been a nation at odds with itself.



2. More directly to this post, I think this Health Care debacle
might be the greatest gift to American conservatism in the last 100
years. Over the past eight decades, Americans have seemingly become
immune to the subtle tactics of incrementalism that the left has
employed to hijack our country. Many of the miniscule advancements of
liberal causes went unnoticed precisely because they were so minimal.
The great gift of the health care plan is that it accelerates the
incrementalism and reveals the leftist agenda for what it is: A big,
steaming pile of liberty-sucking septic effluence.

Why is the Dem's healthcare bill so great? First, this whole stinkpot
endeavor has damaged the Democrat brand for the independents and, I
believe, for a fair portion of Democrats who lable themselves as more
centrist than progressive. I am convinced this process will cultivate a
substantial number of Howard Sterns ("I'll never vote for another
Democrat in my life..."), many of whom still have a very long time left to live. And the party abandonment will only going to get worse if this
thing passes. I suspect Dems will have a hard time getting elected to
township dog-catcher jobs, let alone anything more substantial, for a very, very long time to come. Second,
I believe there are a host of Constitutional challenges to this
atrocity, and I don't think the Supremes will be reticent about taking
up those challenges. The Justices, in fact, may get a chance to do so
quickly if the State AGs now promising to sue the fed actually follow
through with the urgency they're projecting. This HC bill is gonna fall
harder than a rotton redwood.

America is going to be better off for this fight. This healthcare battle is a bit like surgery - we go initially increase our pain to live ultimately with less pain. America needs to excise the boil of progressivism right now,
and progressives have done us the favor of setting the time and place
for battle AND shooting themselves in the foot. While we conservatives still have some heavy work to do, we will prevail, progressivism will take a HUGE hit, and
a bit of quietude will return to our hearts and souls. Don't curse the
night - dawn is coming!

Posted by: Jazz at March 19, 2010 03:43 PM (hnq5i)

110 I hope they stick with the Slaughter Solution and it dies in court before it ever gets going.


Posted by: DrewM. at March 19, 2010 03:37 PM (9B5OK)
Oh great...I have to put my 'hope' with the courts?

Posted by: Tami at March 19, 2010 03:43 PM (VuLos)

111 @89
I hope they keep Slaughter too, it gives two potential challenges, one to the substance and one to the procedure. I think the court would more like to overturn procedure, its less loaded.
Then there is always the constitutional convention option, all it would take is 2/3 of the states (which would be 33). Under O'care the states get hosed and right now and 38 are making laws against provisions in the bill. These laws would likely fail due to the supremacy clause, but there is a chance...

Posted by: Jollyroger at March 19, 2010 03:43 PM (or6Aq)

112 This bill will pass, and Amnesty follows after.

New freshly minted Democratic voters to give the Democrats the edge they need. Cap and Trade, nationalization galore and whatever else they can get away with.

ObamaCare will not likely be the top priority in a year. There will be other more urgent abominations. They will continue to use the Slaughter Rule to enact as much of their agenda as they possibly can. What the country will look like in 2012 is anyone's guess.

Posted by: sharrukin at March 19, 2010 03:44 PM (593B8)

113 Have we really reached the point where one side of a serious public policy debate totally ignores the fiscal implications of what they champion after ALL that we have witnessed on that front in the past three years or so? Really?
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 19, 2010 03:38 PM (B+qrE)
In case you have not noticed, Barack Obama relies heavily on the fact that the voting (and non-voting but loudmouthed) public will listen to what he says he is going to do and will subsequently ignore his doing the opposite. And so far, he's been remarkably successful with at least a segment of his base in avoiding accountability. The question remains as to whether a critical mass of American citizens will recognize his two-faced game and care enough to take action against it at the ballot box.

Posted by: stuiec at March 19, 2010 03:44 PM (7AOgy)

114 I'll be damned if I can figure out how ANYONE, yes, even the most
cynical committed lefty, thinks this thing is a positive.

State control. Your committed lefty finally gets to tell the stupid smelly inbreeders what to eat and when to die.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 19, 2010 03:44 PM (mR7mk)

115 "If that fails, we can try to undo it incrementally if nothing else."

Those approaches may be worthwhile. And you're right, the "benefits" kick in later.

And even in Britain, Canada, Sweden, etc., arguments about health care priorities are still made.

But there's the rub. It's about health care priorities and spending levels, never should the government be doing anything about individual health care coverage at all.

Mark Steyn wrote wisely on this subject. I can't remember his exact words, but basically having the state provide health care changes the relationship between citizen and government.

And not for the better.

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:45 PM (0fq7b)

116 There's only one thing I've ever envied the Dems over. Their discipline. They stick together just like the communist cadres used to during Viet Nam and the Cold War.
Someone a couple of threads ago asked 'whereare the Dems Graham's and McCain's?' but we search in vain because these fuckers stick together like all good communists. This is not the Democratic Party I knew when I was young.

Posted by: LGoPs at March 19, 2010 03:45 PM (v/rEn)

117 It proves, though, that voting makes a difference. If more conservatives had voted in '06 '08, I'm sure we would be seeing gridlock than the possibility of such a monstrosity ever being passed. No excuses for staying home next time.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 19, 2010 03:46 PM (J46Fi)

118 We're pessimistic because these type of entitlement programs never, ever, ever go away.

Posted by: feeling defeated at March 19, 2010 03:46 PM (fGMGp)

119 Anyone who votes for this needs to hang in November. All the Dems are worried about being #216 that votes for this shit. Like votes #1- 215 didn't have any bearing on it passing.
It's like all those times you woke up hungover as hell saying "I should never have had that last drink." Yeah, right. Like the first 15 had nothing to do with you getting drunk.....

Posted by: PAgirlinNC at March 19, 2010 03:46 PM (GNydv)

120 Oh great...I have to put my 'hope' with the courts?
Specifically with Justice Kennedy. Feel better?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 19, 2010 03:46 PM (B+qrE)

121 I hope they stick with the Slaughter Solution and it dies in court before it ever gets going.

So do I, Drew, but the point is that no one will see any benefits (aka, become dependent drones) on ObamaCare for quite a while, and they're going to see a lot of shit hitting the fan once it passes: Unemployment (see Caterpillar). Doctors leaving practice, making appointments harder to get. Taxes galore.

There will be elections before anybody gets a drink from the teat. Will there be a chance of a 'Repeal ObamaCare' bill? Probably not, but there is the possibility for real reform to get put in to supercede it as the shit/fat collision begins making its mess.

It will be easier to sell changes to dispense with the particular points of Obamacare than it will be to chuck the whole thing as a mass.

Posted by: nickless at March 19, 2010 03:47 PM (MMC8r)

122 82 Whether we voted for Progressive John McCain or Progressive Barack Obama, we would have ended up here eventually.
No we would not you asshat. 3rd party pushers and/or lets sit home and and punish the republicans are what landed us here. Go review the post upstream where someone quoted Rush's closing remarks today.
And also not Rush agrees with Morrs, they DON"T have the votes and are trying to bluff their own hold outs.

Posted by: bebe's boobs destroy at March 19, 2010 03:47 PM (cniXs)

123 This is not the Democratic Party I knew when I was young.
September 1, 1983.
The day Scoop Jackson died. Man, did they go downhill from there.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 19, 2010 03:48 PM (B+qrE)

124 I wun!
I'm deh Precedent!
Go Cuques!

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama - The 'H' is silent! at March 19, 2010 03:48 PM (8XjJP)

125 I'm not saying socialized healthcare is good, mastour, anymore than I'm saying being on welfare is good.

I'm saying they're addictive and change the nature of the population receiving the "benefit" to more dependence, i.e., more socialism/left-wing in nature.

So you end up with a situation where sure there are left/right parties, but both parties move strongly to the left.

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 03:49 PM (0fq7b)

126 Thing is, coverage won't be
available for 3-4 years...only the taxes kick in immediately. That may
be the difference between overturning this new entitlement and all the
others.


Posted by: Tami at March 19, 2010 03:32 PM (VuLos)

Yep. And again, I'll wager the money won't be put aside. They'll borrow on that money, and then the program will be insolvent before it starts. Screw the CBO scoring.

Posted by: InCali at March 19, 2010 03:49 PM (u1OeY)

127 All the Dems are worried about being #216 that votes for this shit.
They're not giving that one to Patches in memory of that thing that begat him?

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 19, 2010 03:49 PM (mR7mk)

128 Christoph,
You are trying to cast yourself as some bastion of realism, but you have no plan if the bill passes except to just give up.That's not realism. That's just cynicism.
People posting that they want to get a Republican supermajority on a conservative blog to overturn a rule they disagree with is hardly 'hurtful' to whatever nebulous 'cause' youadvocate.

Posted by: Zuggs at March 19, 2010 03:50 PM (TpXEI)

129 Even Stupak is ready to deal. the fix is in.. this bill is law..

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at March 19, 2010 03:50 PM (f9c2L)

130 Specifically with Justice Kennedy. Feel better?


Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 19, 2010 03:46 PM (B+qrE)
I'll have the blue pill...thanks.

Posted by: Tami at March 19, 2010 03:50 PM (VuLos)

131 I'm gonna kidnap any wavering Dem that votes no and take them for a little drive.

Posted by: Zombie Ted at March 19, 2010 03:51 PM (RykTt)

132 #124
Exactly.

Posted by: LGoPs at March 19, 2010 03:52 PM (v/rEn)

133 It's more grave than that. It's no longer about winning on the issue of ObamaCare. It's come down to this: Obama, Pelosi and Reid see that passing ObamaCare is a necessary condition for their political survival, if not a sufficient one. If ObamaCare wins, they don't necessarily believe that everything will be biscuits and gravy through the 2012 elections -- but they are convinced that if ObamaCare fails, they're collectively and individually finished, as in lame ducks with their political power reduced to a negligible level.
--------------------------------------------------------------
That's a good point stuiec, Obaka & Pelosi are definitely desperate to ram this one through whatever the cost. This has become a big moment for them; win, and they might hold on to Congress through 2010 to come back next year for more. Lose, they take a beating at the polls anyway, and Obaka faces a hostile Republican congressional majority (or large minority) for 2 years, limping into 2012 with little hope. Still, they are taking a big risk, and willing to accept losses they still cannot afford. No matter if it passes, if the voters decide to un-elect half the Democrats this fall, the Republican House can de-fund or de-consruct the whole thing next year. So Obaka and friend can get a "win", but it could still blow up in their faces.

Posted by: exdem13 at March 19, 2010 03:52 PM (lYKj1)

134 Might as well flip a coin on which way the 5-4 SC decision will go. And even if it is overturned, it will be back in some form or another. Federalism is dying the slow death of a thousand cuts, and this is the one of the biggest.

Posted by: feeling defeated at March 19, 2010 03:52 PM (fGMGp)

135 do you remember that kid on the playground that you taunted and teased?
the one that looked so meek and mild, the one who just took it and took it until you thought it was just no big deal to push him around?
then one day you go to start in on him and before you know it you're looking up at blue sky, your head is swimming and there's blood streaming down your face?
remember him?
that was me.

Posted by: shoey at March 19, 2010 03:52 PM (Ed9Xn)

136 So from now on we hang every medical sob story around the democrats necks and let them explain that everything will be fine in 3 or 4 years to the public. The majority of people already hate this plan and after a few years even more will.Then we can turn this thing off before full implementation, even if we have to use the same tactics as the Dems. Maybe the Republicans will just have to risk their careers just like these commie pricks are doing right now.

Posted by: Mal at March 19, 2010 03:53 PM (Z+qzA)

137 Don't stop fighting, even if it's a lost cause.
http://tinyurl.com/m2jw2f

/Yes, the rest is unrealistic, but he makes a great point.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 19, 2010 03:54 PM (J46Fi)

138 then one day you go to start in on him and before you know it you're
looking up at blue sky, your head is swimming and there's blood
streaming down your face?
remember him?
that was me.


I'm tellin'!

Posted by: nickless at March 19, 2010 03:55 PM (MMC8r)

139 110Whether we voted for Progressive John McCain or Progressive Barack Obama, we would have ended up here eventually.
Everybody needs to stop playing the dem word games. STOP calling them progressives, it helps chocolate jesus draw parallels to teddy roosevelt. They are MARXISTS. CALL THEM WHAT THEY ARE!

Posted by: bebe's boobs destroy at March 19, 2010 03:56 PM (cniXs)

140 jazz @ 110
Your scenario was possible a few years ago, but I am concerned that the population has become so urbanized, and used to giving up personal freedom just to get by on a daily basis, that there will only be those of us who will not yield our freedom for a paltry particle of security to carry this fight. I mean, the population held enough foolish people to elect this turkey in the first place, when he was plainly a socialist. I am concerned that it will require a civil war to restore personal freedom, and personal freedom is not held much in esteem for those who want government to be their surrogate parents. They are content to sit in their cages and be taken care of until the owner (government) is tired of their expense and has them put to sleep. And they will deserve it.

Posted by: maddogg at March 19, 2010 03:56 PM (OlN4e)

141 Thank God we'll be broke soon, so all this is moot.

Posted by: mastour at March 19, 2010 03:56 PM (I8H0c)

142 This shit is PART of the demonpass monstrosity???

Control who gets to go to medical/nursing/administration school.

yah, last week they were slinging fries...this week, they're in your surgical theater....
CLEAR

Posted by: pitchforksandpowder at March 19, 2010 03:58 PM (vgX9V)

143 STOP calling them progressives, it helps chocolate jesus draw parallels
to teddy roosevelt.

I like "oppressives." Because they are.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 19, 2010 03:58 PM (mR7mk)

144 Cao and Titus were first reported here by ... take a wild guess.

Posted by: Gerry at March 19, 2010 03:59 PM (JyXK9)

145 @116"Mark Steyn wrote wisely on this subject. I can't remember his exact
words, but basically having the state provide health care changes the
relationship between citizen and government.

And not for the better."
I agree with you 100%. And of course the larger problem for our republic is the 20-45% who knowingly vote for and approve our descent. The recent upside, of course, is that a lot of the middle 20-30% are getting informed and involved.

But I'm not sure what will turn back the Deem-ocrat plans short of riots in the streets until Jan 2013, and while I wouldn't mind seeing that happen, I cannot afford to be apart of it.

At the very least though, we need all republicans now to go on record in favor or repeal, and to get all democrat nos on the record for or against repeal as well. We can't let the passion against this fade.

Posted by: Randy at March 19, 2010 03:59 PM (zQKSr)

146 Second, I believe there are a host of Constitutional challenges to this atrocity, and I don't think the Supremes will be reticent about taking up those challenges. The Justices, in fact, may get a chance to do so quickly if the State AGs now promising to sue the fed actually follow through with the urgency they're projecting. This HC bill is gonna fall harder than a rotton redwood.
I think that little snotty remark that Obama made in the SOTU address might come back to haunt him big time on this one, and you just know the lib media would sieze on that for thereason this bill was overturned if it does get overturned.
Only real question becomes will the Supremes hear the case? Not a lot of precedent here but previous challenges (think there was one in like 1878-79) set a precedent that the Court for the most part doesn't really look to closely at the process behind the bill's passage but only the constitutionality of the final product, but who knows.
The only other question that leaves is will they toss the entire bill out the window, en toto, or will they only declare limited sections of it unconstitutional?
With any luck we won't have to find out.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at March 19, 2010 03:59 PM (e8T35)

147 144 I like "oppressives." Because they are.
That works too.

Posted by: bebe's boobs destroy at March 19, 2010 04:01 PM (cniXs)

148 It's a simple thing: If it passes, it doesn't matter how you voted if you're not in a majority-minority district. Having a D means you will go down. So if it'll pass anyway, you might as well please your Don, Nancy Pelosi.
If it doesn't pass, then voting no may actually save your seat and Democrats up and down the ballot will thank you, if in secret.
But I say don't give up. If they have 216, then make them fight over who has to be #216. Make them give more bribes, promise more jobs, make more feeble entreaties to the Senate. Take them to the mat for this.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 19, 2010 04:01 PM (Vo2Ef)

149
I say we stop calling democrats democrats. They are not democrats. They are socialists.

We have two major parties:
The Republican party.
The Socialist party.


Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 19, 2010 04:01 PM (0fzsA)

150 I'm not giving in to these assholes, I fought the communists once and I'm prepared to defend my Country from them again.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at March 19, 2010 04:02 PM (NWykk)

151 "You are trying to cast yourself as some bastion of realism, but you
have no plan if the bill passes except to just give up.That's not
realism. That's just cynicism."

You have a point.

My main purpose is so people don't delude themselves and think about "later" when the odds of success later are much worse than they are now.

So, put maximum effort in now.

In the future, if and when the political ground changes, then I'll have a new position as things are at that time. But for now, I see no value in talking about mythical court challenges when the precedent is the court doesn't get involved in how the congress does things... only in what they decide to do.

Which is two different things entirely.

Further, the overturning via supermajority this is so incredibly unlikely that it pains me to see people deluding themselves to such a degree.

Mostly though, I'm pissed off at all the far-right conservatives who sat on their fucking hands during the recent 2 elections because they couldn't have everything their exact way, and have let Democratic super-majorities, and a Marxist President, force the United States into the position of fundamentally changing the relationship of the citizen to the governed in such a way as to tilt the U.S. leftward.

Long term.

Well done, finicky conservatives. I wish you'd all gotten a chance to listen to Rush Limbaugh's chastizement of you on his radio show today.

Obama was dangerous. And they let him get elected.

There are a lot of American conservatives who are... how shall I say? ... Oh, I remember.

Stupid.

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 04:02 PM (0fq7b)

152 The lot of you whining this can't be overturned fail to realize we've had entitlements for a long time and people know they're broke and a disaster.

We have experienced it already. This is a different day. I understand the gloom but some of you need to sideline yourselves. You're no good for the war if you can't take a battle.

Dear God, I don't know who's more effective Pelosi or some of you here.

Posted by: USMC at March 19, 2010 04:03 PM (wDAko)

153 "The lot of you whining this can't be overturned fail to realize we've
had entitlements for a long time and people know they're broke and a
disaster."

So do the Greeks, but I don't see them overturning anything.

I believe a country financially collapsing due to unsustainable programs is a lot more likely than a majority of its elected representatives seeing the light and pulling benefits away from their voters.

Posted by: Christoph at March 19, 2010 04:07 PM (0fq7b)

154 Dear God, I don't know who's more effective Pelosi or some of you here.Posted by: USMC at March 19, 2010 04:03 PM (wDAko)

Amen, brother. Pants shitting is no way to go through life.

Posted by: Jazz at March 19, 2010 04:08 PM (hnq5i)

155 when its forth and 20 that is hardly the time to inspire the huddle teammates with "gee I not sure our best play will work" speeches ...
Ace, fake it you have to ... imitate the tiger ...

"That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put in his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us."

Posted by: Jeff at March 19, 2010 04:09 PM (wr8S+)

156 154,

Yeah I suppose, but the Greeks are in the streets daily so I'll just wait and see what happens over there, when America takes to the streets are you going to be the cockbreath that just stands and watches?

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at March 19, 2010 04:10 PM (NWykk)

157 Thank God we'll be broke soon, so all this is moot.

Word. The question is moot and still answers itself.

Posted by: mayan calendar at March 19, 2010 04:11 PM (PD1tk)

158 Sunday well may be a victory for these corrupt bastards. However, it is only the end of the beginning.
The goodies must wait 4 years while the pain begins almost immediately.
This is the great GOP advantage going into Nov. 2010 and then 2012.
The repeal and extinction of this bill must be the signature GOP policy going forward- lets find out where this country really stands once and for all on our future
Win or Lose-It must be the campaign issue.

Posted by: jjshaka at March 19, 2010 04:11 PM (ajtwY)

159 I believe a country financially collapsing due to unsustainable programs is a lot more likely than a majority of its elected representatives seeing the light and pulling benefits away from their voters.
Uh, duh.
Which is precisely why voting for McCain is pointless.
There's only 1 way out of this.

Posted by: Entropy at March 19, 2010 04:12 PM (IsLT6)

160 How to sort the wheat from the chaff? My theory is to look at the roll callto tableH. Res. 1194. Roll Call 132-----> http://tinyurl.com/yjfpau7
Briefly: H. Res.1194 is Eric Cantor's resolution questioning the privileges of the House wrt DemonPass (containing references such as: "this disgusting process" "procedural sleight of hand" "unacceptable special deals"...you get the idea...)
Steny Hoyer immediately moved to table it. I figure that those wanting to 'table' this resolution are the enemy.
The PDF isn't available, but you can read it beginning on p.1623 of the Congressional Record. Beautiful.

Posted by: Stillwater at March 19, 2010 04:14 PM (qUdDE)

161 Christoph,
I will assure you I most certainly did not stay home in '08. I'm in the minority at thinking McCain actually is conservative (except on immigration). And I agree that these people were short-sighted and fundamentally ignorant. But were there a large enough number of them to affect a major change in our landscape? I don't think so. I think the fickle mushead middle put us in this predicament.
I also understand needing to keep the pressure on now, and that it is much better to kill the bill now than later. But I also understand that there is very little we can do to stop it aside from melting phones. We are relying on Democrats. That is untenable, and we need to plan ahead for if (when) they fail.
Since the goal of the Republican party is to seek supermajorities, I see no problem in ratcheting up our efforts to get them. That is one of the only options I can think of available to us to overturn this bill. And we must overturn it if it passes.
Ultimately , apportioning blame for our current predicament won't get the law overturned, and that needs to be our highest goal. Scorekeeping and remembering past offenses is what the stay-at-homers did.

Posted by: Zuggs at March 19, 2010 04:15 PM (TpXEI)

162 Stick Cap and Trade in there too. How about a section that cancels all future elections? Shit, might as well.

Posted by: kansas at March 19, 2010 04:15 PM (mka2b)

163 Seriously, do you think Obama and the Democrats did not know this in 2008 when these freshmen representatives came in with them? Their votes have always been bought, and they owe their seats to the unions. They were hoping to avoid this vote, but they will do it nonetheless. Sunday is still a crapshoot, and the GOP has House odds. That's an advantage. Keep melting the phones!

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at March 19, 2010 04:20 PM (mHQ7T)

164 No matter if it passes, if the voters decide to un-elect half the Democrats this fall, the Republican House can de-fund or de-consruct the whole thing next year. So Obaka and friend can get a "win", but it could still blow up in their faces.
Did someone say "blow"? Who's holding?

Posted by: President Obama at March 19, 2010 04:25 PM (rf03a)

165 "Oh, duh. Not all of the undecideds are really that way. The Speaker had some votes she could call on, and the majority of Democrats think the public will get used to their higher taxes and shittier care. The media will help us out, and we''ll keep printing money. Permanent motherfucking majority." You bitches sure are making it easier for them, too. You should all have concerned ass sex with Cristoph, Mjim, Pam, Erg and the Mayan Calendar.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at March 19, 2010 04:26 PM (mHQ7T)

166 Stick Cap and Trade in there too. How about a section that cancels all future elections? Shit, might as well.
Indeed, may as well. Because it's going there anyway.
No more delusions - this is what we are. We must confront it sooner or later.
We are in a cultural war. Why delay it? Why drag it out? Shall we be stronger or have a better position tommorow? Has this been working for you the last century past?
I guess it depends on what you mean by working. Has it been successful for us - no. Has it allowed us to continue pretending and ignore unpleasant truths about our situation - yes.
One way or the other, quit the fighting and decide the matter. Much like our entitlement programs, you can't ignore it and postpone it indefinetly, and it will not just go away.

Posted by: Entropy at March 19, 2010 04:26 PM (IsLT6)

167 Thanks, Ace, for the shot in the arm.

Awesome.

Posted by: Filly at March 19, 2010 04:28 PM (onwJ3)

168 Gabe just called the Eeyores "effing pussies" in his new post. Ouch.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 19, 2010 04:34 PM (J46Fi)

169 Cristoph sounds an awful lot like that sanssoucy douchebag who was here on Tuesday. That must be the latest talking point. "If you had only embraced the moderate candidate who could occasionally be relied upon, you wouldn't be here right now. But Obama won. So, suck it."

I'll tell you, I laughed and cried when I watched President Obama say that, more or less, to McCain during the healthcare summit. "I have to tell you he is a decent person and a person that you do not
have to be scared of as president of the United States," McCain said. I voted for the old traitor, but only because of Sarah Palin.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at March 19, 2010 04:35 PM (mHQ7T)

170 Gabe is a lovable coconut. I'm just kidding, but Hispanics would be nice in the GOP tent. The closeted gays are ruining us, and we could use some heat.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at March 19, 2010 04:37 PM (mHQ7T)

171 Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at March 19, 2010 04:35 PM (mHQ7T)

No Christoph is that way naturally. He has been here for years annoying the shit out of just about everyone.

Posted by: sharrukin at March 19, 2010 04:39 PM (593B8)

172 I only voted for Sarah, not for McCain. But I made sure to vote both times. You can't stay home just to punish people. Sure, there still might be a Dem majority now, but we don't know that. What would have happened if more people voted in '06, how would it have affected '08 what is happening now? I fear we shot ourselves in the foot.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 19, 2010 04:40 PM (J46Fi)

173
73 36 Dear American men, Sack DC....tell them to retire or hang.It is your duty and obligation.Signed, your loving wives and children
Posted by: pam at March 19, 2010 03:22 PM (h8R9p)
If I wasn't physically disabled, I'd be the first one there!
no worries, conscious we will just have to put ur ass in a sling..and PROUDLY carry ur ass to DC..I,m packed and ready

Posted by: ATEXAN at March 19, 2010 04:54 PM (cde+b)

174 "No more delusions - this is what we are. We must confront it sooner or later."

We've had chances to confront it for decades, and everyone rolled over. You know where my mind is right now, as we sit on the verge of this monstrosity? My mind is on all the "petty" stuff: the seatbelt laws, the smoking bans, the sin taxes, etc. -- all the stuff that many conservatives have not just excused, but often outright advocated.

Steadily, bit by bit, the stage has been set for this weekend. Each failure to rise up against these "petty" tyrannies has opened up the space for Obamacare's passage. Principles matter. Each time a conservative stepped up to talk about making Medicare "solvent" -- rather than absolishing it outright -- he gave the left a little more momentum to arrive at this place.

I'm not trying to spray friendly fire here. That's not my goal. We're all human beings, and it's easy to get caught up in the complexities of daily life, to fail to see the forest for the trees. This is merely a reminder that liberty ALWAYS matters, period. There's no "kinda sorta liberty" to be had. It either exists, and thus Obamacare never happens, or it doesn't exist, and Obamacare becomes our world.

There should never, ever be any hemming and hawing about this shit, no matter how much you hate cigarette smoke or think your neighbor should buckle up.

Posted by: Tom_T at March 19, 2010 05:16 PM (auiWF)

175 Here in NYC, when you're stuck in traffic, cops walk up and down looking for passengers without seatbelts and issuing $130 tickets.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at March 19, 2010 05:25 PM (mHQ7T)

176 Y'know, Wilbur and I were thinking about trying to do that "heavier-than-air flight" thing, but no one's ever done it before.

That's okay. Bicycles are the wave of the future.

Posted by: Orville Wright at March 19, 2010 05:39 PM (I/MqP)

177 Y'know, Tenzing and I were thinking about trying to climb Everest, but no one's ever done it before.

That's okay. The Matterhorn awaits.

Posted by: Edmund Hillary at March 19, 2010 05:42 PM (I/MqP)

178 Y'know, I was thinking about trying to reach the South Pole, but no one's ever done it before.

That's okay. There's good skiing back home in Norway.

Posted by: Roald Amundsen at March 19, 2010 05:45 PM (I/MqP)

179 In September 1932, Popular Science predicted that soon giant "islands of ice" would dot the oceans and serve as airports. Oh, yeah, when refrigeration was being pioneered, that was a good thing, back before Global Warming became Climate Change. It was just another bubble. We thought it was worth the risk, since the technology was so innovative. Then there was Black Tuesday. Greed will always prevail when you put the government in the cockpit.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at March 19, 2010 05:48 PM (mHQ7T)

180 I was named after Edmund Hillary. Even though he climbed Mt. Everest five years after I was born.

Posted by: Hillary "Tuzla" Clinton at March 19, 2010 05:50 PM (mHQ7T)

181 Oh, that's okay. My parents had a dream in Selma, even though I was born in 1961. But black is the new President, bitch!

Posted by: Obama Bin Lyin' at March 19, 2010 05:52 PM (mHQ7T)

182 "There's no "kinda sorta liberty" to be had. It either exists, and thus Obamacare never happens, or it doesn't exist, and Obamacare becomes our world. There should never, ever be any hemming and hawing about this shit, no matter how much you hate cigarette smoke or think your neighbor should buckle up."

you are correct, which is why we MUST rid the GOP of ppl like John McCain and Lindsey Graham.

Posted by: shoey at March 19, 2010 06:54 PM (Ed9Xn)

183 @77: "Let them know that this is not the end, but only the beginning. Everyone fights, nobody quits!"
Yeah, right. Blog posts, phone calls, and letters to the editor have them shaking in their boots. You want to stop/repeal the socialist stuff? You need to square yourself with the very real possibility that you might actually have to fight in that Lexington/Concord real bloodshed, real bodies kind of manner.
As Josey Wales put it, you gotta get plumb mad-dog mean. The socialist onslaught stops when Pelosi, Reid, and all the others start worrying that every single person out there is a potential assassin, and one who's not only gunning for them, but for their husband/wife/kid.
However, that won't happen here. There are probably some with both the will and means to do it, and there are almost certainly some with one or the other, but not both. The vast majority of the population will simply accept the Glorious Socialist Utopia, and everyone knows it.

Posted by: Jefferson Davis at March 19, 2010 06:58 PM (kmEfr)

184 i have nothing to lose, no wife, no kids, no job, I have a crappy run-down trailer, and beat-up old pickup truck. I do have a deer rifle, a 9mm barretta and plenty of ammo for both.
Live Free or Die!

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