Democrats Rally Around Idea That They Have to Pass Unpopular Legislation to Prove They Can "Govern"

This thinking is simply wrong. It's the claim of archliberals and Obama cultists (the two are mostly overlapping groups) who wish to influence skeptics and moderates to vote in favor of political suicide.

Obama and the leftist partisans have been pushing ObamaCare on us for a full year now. The public has listened to the arguments and understands the basic parameters of the deal -- and has rejected it, not only by 60% majorities in polls, but by a watershed election in Massachusetts. Not to mention New Jersey and Virginia.

The public doesn't want this bill. Passing it would not be proof that Democrats can "govern." Passing it would instead by proof they can't govern-- at least not govern in a manner that the majority of the public finds acceptable.

When Bill Clinton was dealt a setback in 1994, he proved he could govern by pursuing a more moderate course, as he'd promised in the campaign but quickly forgot about after his inauguration. That was actually a stab at governing in a broadly-acceptable (if still left-leaning) manner.

This current notion -- that to "govern," a party must exercise pure transitory political power in the face of stiff resistance from the public -- has liberals all wild-eyed. They like this formulation because it achieves two things:

1) It allows them to continue cheerleading for their boyfriend-hero Obama without considering other consequences, and it does that by...

2) Positing that there are no trade-offs involved here. Liberals love pretending their are no trade-offs in life. It makes things so much simpler to claim that not only is torture wrong, torture also only results in false information. And so once again they come up with a fantasy formulation, in which Democrats not only vote the way their Liberal True Believers wish them to, but profit from it politically, because, somehow, the public becomes impressed with their ability to "govern," also known as "defying their clearly-expressed wishes."

Any rational person would conclude that passing this bill is politically disastrous, but Obama's SuperFans don't want to acknowledge that. They don't want to acknowledge that a "win" for Obama here means a big loss for liberals down the law. They are talking themselves crazy into buying the proposition it's pure win-win. (Or "Win-Win-Win," as Michael Scott says.)

It's bad enough that James Carville is now propagating this lunacy. Yes, Carville is a partisan liberal, but he's also a partisan liberal, if you know what I mean -- he's a pollster, and understands hard numbers, and should understand that ObamaCare can badly hurt the Democrats for years to come. He should be warning Democrats off this abortion.

But he's not. He says health care might be Obama's Waterloo, but phrases it in the win-win sort of way that leftist lunatics are so bewitched by:

On 'GMA' this morning, James Carville wasn't as optimistic as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Not sure that Democrats have the votes to pass the President's plan, Carville is sure that failure will be the "Waterloo" predicted by GOP Senator Jim DeMint.

If it goes down" Carville said, "its gonna be a simple statement: the Democrats cant govern. They came in with a majority promising health care and they came away with nothing.

They came in with a majority promising very vague health care reforms, and furthermore promising that such reforms would cost those with insurance nothing -- that it would even put money in the pockets of those with insurance, by reducing premium costs while increasing the standard of care.

That last part has been exposed as the lie it always was. Obama had a "mandate," to the extent he had one at all, to pass a purely fantasy have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too health care reform that delivered everything while costing nothing. That reform doesn't exist -- as it never existed. So what mandate does he have to pass a reform that does cost 80% of the public something in the form of higher taxes, higher premiums, or reduced care?

As I said: A partisan but rational liberal should be making the case against this. But Carville's not -- the liberal base is too passionate about giving Barack Hussein Obama his all-important "momentum" and his stupid America-wounding victory to care about long- or even (mid-) term consequences. He can't speak honestly about this, just as Lawrence O'Donnell said of liberals a month ago: They are not free to speak the truth; they would be punished too much for daring to tell liberals that No, they can't ram an unpopular bill down the public's throat and remain popular with the public.

I've also noticed this change in Chris Matthews. Immediately after Scott Brown's election, he was arguing with Alan Grayson that reconciliation was virtually impossible with this bill, and that he ought to think realistically about Democrats' precarious political situation.

But now he's back on Team Obama, arguing that the Democrats must pass this, damn the consequences, just to prove they can "govern."

Dangerous. I'm getting worried again.

"They're Driving Themselves Crazy:" That's how Bill Kristol characterized liberals' talk of becoming even more out-and-proud liberal after their defeat in the 2002 polls. They convinced themselves that the path back to power lay not in moderation, but in being more overtly, honestly, and passionately leftist.

They did in fact pursue that course, sort of -- liberals became more liberals. But they only won Congressional seats because they nominated a bunch of centrists who could compete in red and purple states.

And Barack Obama won in 2008 because he was, the media insisted, a moderate -- more moderate than Hillary Clinton, and even closer to the center than noted firebrand ideologue John McCain.

Nevertheless, when liberals get into political trouble, their third course of action is always to convince themselves they just need to be more liberal.*

And recent history shows this isn't just talk.

* Their first course of action is to blame their candidates and call them incompetent -- putting the blame on the messenger, not the message -- and the second course of action is to blame the public for being too stupid to understand what they were saying.

Posted by: Ace at 03:50 PM



Comments

1
Did someone say "McGovern"?

Posted by: Dang at March 01, 2010 03:52 PM (UA4gE)

2 Acting just to prove they can govern sounds like a tyrant randomly killing people to prove he is in control

Posted by: darii at March 01, 2010 03:52 PM (RdrW8)

3 Pass it and reap the whirlwind you dumb b******s. (Edited to keep the profanity level down.)

Posted by: ECM at March 01, 2010 03:52 PM (nYKDd)

4 Wow, just Wow. Lemming bus leaves in 10 mins, be under it Dems.
Just sayin'

Posted by: BIG ROB at March 01, 2010 03:55 PM (K2iC2)

5 maybe someone can explain to me why the Dems think that, on the one hand, leadership means telling the people of this country what we want (whether or not we want it); and on the other hand leadership means leading the rest of the world in whatever direction the EuroSocialists want.

Posted by: Ira at March 01, 2010 03:55 PM (bJm7W)

6 or put it another way: passing this kind of legislation does not show that the Dems can govern, it shows that they can dictate.
Democratic Centralism: they tell us what we want and we sheepishly say 'yes'.

Posted by: Ira at March 01, 2010 03:57 PM (bJm7W)

7 What do expect from people who view Americans as "ungovernable"? We're not ungovernable, we're self-governing, i.e. we take responsibility for our own lives and don't want government interfering with that. We want government to provide for our national defense and to enforce just laws.

Posted by: Fallen Sparrow at March 01, 2010 03:58 PM (SOf9N)

8 This just in --
Toyota press release states that unintended acceleration problem is actually design feature which proves that the latest Toyota models are capable of "driving".

All further work on this issues will be terminated.

Posted by: nine coconuts at March 01, 2010 03:58 PM (DHNp4)

9 The Dems, while they may be on their way to a political Jonestown massacre, are taking the rest of the country along. While many feel they are merely witnesses to this spectacle, the truth is we will all wind up being participants, just like the earlier article you posted from Andrew McCarthy attests too.

The one truth we all know is that any federal program once begun is impossible to stop and if the Dems ram it through we will pay dearly for it's folly.

Posted by: Just A Grunt at March 01, 2010 03:59 PM (pOC9r)

10 We are so boned.

Posted by: DelD at March 01, 2010 03:59 PM (eWtdM)

11 Strange enough, but it's gonna come down to one thing: Abortion.
Dems have enough votes in the Senate; in the House, it's close. But with the Stupak led pro-life House Dems probably having the power of determining whether Pelosi gets her votes in the House or not, it will be interesting to see how those folks hold up.

Posted by: Lee at March 01, 2010 03:59 PM (7y9kL)

12 One hopes they don't decide that they have to put all the intellectuals to work farming to prove they can govern.

Posted by: doug at March 01, 2010 03:59 PM (jCwj+)

13 Nanzi's call for kamikaze kongreekritters to vote for Obamacare even if it means losing their career ought to be matched by her committing hari kari if the bill doesn't pass.

Posted by: WalrusRex at March 01, 2010 03:59 PM (xxgag)

14 So the Democrats are in a room with 10 chicks, 6 are hot, but 4 are kind of ugly so they can't seduce the 6 because the other 4 are cock blocking.

I think I got it.

Posted by: wtfci at March 01, 2010 03:59 PM (+zo63)

15 I still can't believe Jonathon "The Impaler" Sharkey is on my team, although, I do love this deathhealth-care plan by the Dems.

Posted by: SATAN at March 01, 2010 04:00 PM (0FiCa)

16 I think you should be worried Ace. Not only will they try to pass it. They will stuff it with things to try and make it irrevocable. Plus they are ready to get those shovel ready projects going and betting on a short memory of the public. After all how is that border fence going? No real or virtual fence and no outcry.

Posted by: Locus Ceruleus at March 01, 2010 04:01 PM (tzcjs)

17 En Fuego!

Posted by: that guy that shouts en fuego! at March 01, 2010 04:01 PM (PD1tk)

18 Perhaps Stack was the beginning of the peasants' revolt.

Posted by: kathysaysso at March 01, 2010 04:01 PM (ZtwUX)

19 I'd call it pretzel logic, but pretzels are a delicious snack, while the Dem agenda is nothing but a big shit sandwich.

Posted by: SuperCool at March 01, 2010 04:01 PM (DRsTV)

20 God, I miss Bill Clinton.

Posted by: sandy burger at March 01, 2010 04:01 PM (MT+0i)

21 If it goes down" Carville said, "its gonna be a simple statement: the Democrats cant govern. They came in with a majority promising health care and they came away with nothing.
I thought the offcial line was "failure to communicate".

Posted by: Strother Martin at March 01, 2010 04:02 PM (QrA9E)

22 Pointing out the obvious:
James Carville owes Ross Perot a shitload of money.
The only explanation that fits here folks is that which Limbaugh, Will and a multitude of others have pointed out: The true lefties are intent--WILD-EYED even, to make the maximum number of citizens dependent on the government. I, personally, love it when the elected leadership of the United States decides to mimic Hugo Chavez.
November cannot come soon enough.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2010 04:02 PM (B+qrE)

23 Lee,

It's too late for abortion. I think it's illegal after the 100th trimester.

Posted by: nine coconuts at March 01, 2010 04:03 PM (DHNp4)

24 19

I'd call it pretzel logic, but pretzels are a delicious snack, while the Dem agenda is nothing but a big shit sandwich.

Posted by: SuperCool at March 01, 2010 04:01 PM (DRsTV)
___________With weasel sauce as the condiment.

Posted by: kathysaysso at March 01, 2010 04:03 PM (ZtwUX)

25 It's like they all need to get the advice that the prez just got from his doctors.

Posted by: Alan Smithee at March 01, 2010 04:04 PM (F7GbV)

26 Shorter Ace: Democrats confuse "governance" with "totalitarian rule"

Acting just to prove they can govern sounds like a tyrant randomly killing people to prove he is in control

Pretty much sums it up.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2010 04:04 PM (mR7mk)

27 Universal health care. Damn, I wish we had thought of that.

Uh what are these insurance companies of which you speak?

Posted by: Thomas Jefferson at March 01, 2010 04:04 PM (pOC9r)

28 They will stuff it with things to try and make it irrevocable.

They're already on it: 67 Senators needed for repeal.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2010 04:04 PM (mR7mk)

29 Aren't they trying to prove they can rule? Govern means something different altogether.

Posted by: Locus Ceruleus at March 01, 2010 04:05 PM (tzcjs)

30 Remember that Carville is not only a partisan hack, but he's a narrowly-focused hack in that he's still a Clintonista water carrier. He has to know that the healthcare bill is wildly unpopular amongst the precious "moderates" but he keeps pushing it anyway. His mission at this point seems to be to sabotage Obama so that he will be weak enough come 2012 that The Hill can make a challenge against him instead of waiting for 2016 when she'll be old and tattered.
It's dirty politics but it's Carville and the Clintons and they aren't known for their clean tactics.

Posted by: Max Entropy at March 01, 2010 04:05 PM (uuZjB)

31 If I had a paperclip, a rubber band, some fabric samples, three trillion dollars, two full propane tanks, and a shot glass, I could rig something up to save ObamaCare.

Posted by: Angus MacGyver at March 01, 2010 04:06 PM (PD1tk)

32 In all seriousness, I am utterly amazed at how in the face of even deepening opposition to their plans, the Democrats are tripling down on the stupid and getting more and more determined and bull headed.
They seemto take every bit of bad news for them as evidence they aren't stupid enough

Posted by: eddiebear at March 01, 2010 04:06 PM (wnU1W)

33 17 En Fuego!
Posted by: that guy that shouts en fuego! at March 01, 2010 04:01 PM (PD1tk)
You're back!

Posted by: that guy that shouts "you're back!" at March 01, 2010 04:07 PM (Vu6sl)

34 What are the lefty liberals eating/drinking these days? Back in the middle ages, there was a fungus (ergot)that grew on grains which had been stored improperly, and the effect from eating that moldy grain was hallucinations.
From wikipedia: "Ergotism is the name for sometimes severe pathological syndromes affecting humans or animals that have ingested ergot alkaloid-containing plant ;material, such as ergot-contaminated grains. The common name for ergotism is "St. Anthony's fire", in reference to the symptoms, such as severe burning sensations in the limbs. These are caused by effects of ergot alkaloids on the vascular system due to vasoconstruction of blood vessels, sometimes leading to gangrene and loss of limbs due to severely restricted blood circulation. The neurotropic activities of the ergot alkaloids may also cause hallucinations and attendant irrational behavior..."
Middle ages literature is full of stories of people seeing saints, or other visions, and flailing about wildly for no apparent reason. Hmmm, what's going on in DC anyway?

Posted by: Boots at March 01, 2010 04:07 PM (06JTY)

35 Eat your pudding Ace!

Posted by: CrazyKat at March 01, 2010 04:08 PM (mMdWG)

36 Heather

"They're already on it: 67 Senators needed for repeal."

Is that right? Then I don't care how well the Republicans do in the next election. Killing this bill is paramount to our nation and our form of government.

Posted by: Locus Ceruleus at March 01, 2010 04:08 PM (tzcjs)

37 I agree with every single thing Ace just wrote. But this shouldn't really be a surprise. Carville is spouting the exact same line Bill Clinton used last fall at the Mediacrat retreat. Somehow the shellacking they got in '94 was due to their failure to pass the health care bill, rather than their attempt to do it al all.

Anyone else think said advice from Serpenthead might be just a touch self-serving for The Big He, and maybe just a little homicidal for the Congresscritters and Zero?

Posted by: Fresh Air at March 01, 2010 04:08 PM (gJV9g)

38 Nationalized healthcare has been the Dems holy grail/raison d'etre for so long that they will never give it up. With victory so close they can almost taste it, they certainly aren't going to care if said victory is pyhrric. The people need to push back hard and not let up -- but the Dems have banked upon the short memories, shorter attention span, and inablity to stomach sustained hard effort of the American people. The coming months will tell if that was a correct assessment. I'm afraid it is.
For my part, my representative did not vote for this, but calling my senators? Ha, ha, ha, ha; that would be an excercise in futility.

Posted by: unknown jane at March 01, 2010 04:09 PM (5/yRG)

39 Remember that Carville is not only a partisan hack, but he's a narrowly-focused hack in that he's still a Clintonista water carrier. He has to know that the healthcare bill is wildly unpopular amongst the precious "moderates" but he keeps pushing it anyway. His mission at this point seems to be to sabotage Obama so that he will be weak enough come 2012 that The Hill can make a challenge against him instead of waiting for 2016 when she'll be old and tattered.

Okay. This is pretty much what I'm thinking, too. Certainly a plausible idea, if not a probable one.

Posted by: Fresh Air at March 01, 2010 04:10 PM (gJV9g)

40 and this dovetails nicely with the idea recently bandied about that government is broken. why, the answer is to force the measure through, thus unbreaking the log jam.

broken? the can't get their way.

leadership? ram it through.

Posted by: gomm at March 01, 2010 04:10 PM (Ibk1S)

41 This is really good but also very detailed:
Speaker Pelosi, Leader Reid, and their Administration allies face seven challenges in implementing the two bill strategy:

Yes/no political question
Yes/no reconciliation question
Sequencing
Money
Procedural
Substance vote counting, especially in the House
Timing

Posted by: that guy that shouts at March 01, 2010 04:10 PM (Vu6sl)

42 Why can't we stop it?
I don't understand this, "Once it is started we can't stop it" mentality.


Posted by: Uniball at March 01, 2010 04:11 PM (27iEn)

43 geez. I screwed up the formatting on that one. sorry.

Posted by: that guy that shouts at March 01, 2010 04:11 PM (Vu6sl)

44 They will prove they can "govern" right up to the point of full scale war in the streets.

Posted by: maddogg at March 01, 2010 04:12 PM (OlN4e)

45 The leftists are already after trans-fats, bacon's next. That's when we start the be-headings....and laying with their women, but mostly the "laying with their women" thing.

Posted by: Dr. Spank at March 01, 2010 04:12 PM (0FiCa)

46 Heather Radish,
That 67 vote thing is BS and only dingy harry could come up with it. If that is legal by the rules of the Senate, then the next majority could pass a bill saying the opposite and requiring a 99 vote majority to repeal.

But it does show that they know it is trouble and are worried about it being undone. My guess is that they are leaving a lot of the details up to bureaucrats to decide in future since that stuff naturally creeps and can't be undone. Look at Hyde, or FCC, or any number of significant laws that change every time a D is in office and then its too late to undo.

Posted by: nine coconuts at March 01, 2010 04:12 PM (DHNp4)

47 "They're already on it: 67 Senators needed for repeal." Is that right? Then I don't care how well the Republicans do in the next election. Killing this bill is paramount to our nation and our form of government.
Yes, but that was a simple rule change that would be passed by a majority (assuming reconcilliation).
It can likewise be undone with a simple majority.

Posted by: Vic at March 01, 2010 04:12 PM (QrA9E)

48 The one truth we all know is that any federal program once begun is
impossible to stop and if the Dems ram it through we will pay dearly
for it's folly.

That's true, until it isn't anymore. This situation is unlike anything seen before. If the Dems ram it through, and I don't think they can, then they have sealed their fates for election cycles into the indefinite future. The GOP will have an unbelievably powerful one-word issue on which to campaign (repeal) and the voters will be enraged anew every time they pay their taxes and insurance premium, deal with a doctor, or have a bad medical outcome for someone they care about. And they will remember that when they told their representatives they didn't want this, they were ignored. This could well be fatal to the Dems as a brand, and I think cooler heads will realize that.

Posted by: pep at March 01, 2010 04:13 PM (3ll0O)

49 30 You may have a point. Hell hath no fury like a Clinton scorned, and the Clintons have definitely been scorned (at least in their eyes).

Posted by: unknown jane at March 01, 2010 04:15 PM (5/yRG)

50
Why can't we stop it?I don't understand this, "Once it is started we can't stop it" mentality.

You should watch out.
Asking questions like that could get you arrested.

Posted by: Mjim at March 01, 2010 04:15 PM (mMdWG)

51 Most liberals are back-asswards from the start.

They should re-read the Declaration of Independence, and how the whole "CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED" works, when the people are sovereign and armed. You aren't going to have much luck marching them off to your gulags.

Posted by: bill-tb at March 01, 2010 04:16 PM (y+QfZ)

52 Pep is right.

Ponzi schemes require a pyramid shape. We presently have a trapezoid, fast becoming a rectangle, and in about 10 years, an inverted triangle. The future generations cannot shoulder the entitlements already on the books, let alone a greater burden.

Posted by: Fresh Air at March 01, 2010 04:17 PM (gJV9g)

53 I'm not seeing many cooler heads in DC, at least not talking heads. The more the dems talk about this the madder people get. It's been going on for more than a year, and the poll numbers keep getting worse and worse.
It's to the point when I see any of the dem dum-dums faces on TV, I can't change the channel fast enough! Pelosi blinking away and licking her lips, Harry Reid smirking that evil smirk, Obama scowling, liars all of them.

Posted by: Boots at March 01, 2010 04:17 PM (06JTY)

54 50 Why can't we stop it?I don't understand this, "Once it is started we can't stop it" mentality.You should watch out. Asking questions like that could get you arrested.
Posted by: Mjim at March 01, 2010 04:15 PM (mMdWG)
True. We can stop it, but it will be the very last road that we will want to go down.

Posted by: We can do it at March 01, 2010 04:18 PM (Vu6sl)

55 This is similar to Obama vowing to give more speeches, because he thinks resistance to hs policies is due to us, the proles, not understanding what he is trying to do. He cannot comprehend the idea that more than 60% of us a)understand his intent and b) reject it out of hand.
His recourse to being rejected is to try it again, only harder this time! Intensifying failure is the definition of insanity.

Posted by: Mark at March 01, 2010 04:18 PM (lBGZm)

56 Hey, on this "Plan C" or whatever they will call it, it smacks of a Trojan Horse.

"Slim it down," "make some compromises," but still achieve the main goal which is creating a Cloward & Piven crisis for later complete takeover.

Posted by: Onlooker at March 01, 2010 04:20 PM (M3hG/)

57 When ever they say "we have a failure to communicate" I hear we need re-education camps.

Posted by: Locus Ceruleus at March 01, 2010 04:20 PM (tzcjs)

58 His recourse to being rejected is to try it again, only harder this time! Intensifying failure is the definition of insanity.
Posted by: Mark at March 01, 2010 04:18 PM (lBGZm)
and proof that he is a flaming narcissist.

Posted by: conscious with an IV of Mountain Dew at March 01, 2010 04:21 PM (Vu6sl)

59 48, 52 Yep, Pep is right. This has never happened before, but then don't we live in "unprecedented" times?
.

Posted by: unknown jane at March 01, 2010 04:23 PM (5/yRG)

60 So... I'm just gaming stuff out in my head, and I'm thinking, let's say the Dems get their national health service. Notwithstanding cap'n'tax and stuff like that, what's the next huge, overarching thing they're going to decide is a "right"? I'm thinking housing.

Posted by: Farmer Joe at March 01, 2010 04:25 PM (z4es9)

61 If they cram health reform through, Tea Party 2.0 could just focus on passing a Federalism amendment to the constitution and while they are at it go ahead and "clarify" the commerce clause.

Try to undo that one 52%!

Posted by: Stirner at March 01, 2010 04:26 PM (XOE03)

62 Perhaps the Commiecrats could prove to us they can govern by following the example of the Argentinian Teabaggers. I might be willing to listen to them after they set that kind of example for us.

Posted by: 57 States at March 01, 2010 04:30 PM (pEXyx)

63 60 So... I'm just gaming stuff out in my head, and I'm thinking, let's say the Dems get their national health service. Notwithstanding cap'n'tax and stuff like that, what's the next huge, overarching thing they're going to decide is a "right"? I'm thinking housingreeducation camps and blast furnaces.
FIFY

Posted by: 57 States at March 01, 2010 04:33 PM (pEXyx)

64
I've be walking this good, green earth for nigh-on 60 years. I've been around long enough to remember the Eisenhower presidency (I like Ike!). And, kiddies, I'm here to tell you: this is the most fucked-up presidency I've seen. This is the craziest political environment I've seen. All you Millennials who think this situation is batshit crazy but aren't sure because you're young and haven't experienced much in this regard: you're right. It. is. batshit. crazy.

Posted by: Steve (aka Ed Snate) at March 01, 2010 04:33 PM (bdI++)

65 This looks exactly like someone with a gun in their hand going through the very last stages of rationalization on why suicide is the only answer right before they put the gun to their head and scatter their brains all over the room.

I think your concerns about this meme are well founded.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 01, 2010 04:35 PM (0q2P7)

66
Pace my comment in 64:

It is crazier (i.e., worse) than the turmoil during the LBJ presidency, worse than the Nixon years, worse than Carter, worse than the Clinton-getting-a-hummer-in-Oval Office-presidency.

Lots of rough beasts slouching toward ... everywhere.

Posted by: Steve (aka Ed Snate) at March 01, 2010 04:39 PM (bdI++)

67 This could be the turning point for conservatism. I recall reading something about the radical Republicans following the Civil War. In the years after that during reconstruction the Republicans had huge majorities in both houses.
One of the Republican leaders made some kind of outlandish statement about how the "minority Party" in the House should all sit down and shut up. That it was the job of the majority Party to rule in any manner it saw fit.
It wasn't long after that the the compromise of 1877 happended and the Republicans gradually lost power. They haven't had a 60 vote majority in the Senate since that late 1800s time period.
I have tried to find mention of this on the 'net but have been unable to find it. But my point here is that the Dems are essentially doing this same thing. At every chance Obambi comes up with some kind of line that is essentially sit down and shutup because I won.
Perhaps it is time for Republicans AND conservatives to get a 60 vote majority for the next 100 years and then a lot of this socialist crap can be undone.

Posted by: Vic at March 01, 2010 04:43 PM (QrA9E)

68 If the Dems ram it through, and I don't think they can, then they have sealed their fates for election cycles into the indefinite future.
I kind of agree with this. They have taken off the mask and revealed their true faces; if they push this through against the will of 60% (at this time) of the public, they will be destroying the party long term. It's easy for them to think, "Hey, we'll push it through and lose the elections this fall, but the deal will be done and eventually we'll get back in." The problem for them is that Republicans can run on "Repeal" this year. If they win and pass a bill that repeals the whole thing but Obama vetoes, then you add that to the next election. You also pass commonsense bills that you know Obama will veto because unlike Clinton, Obama is a leftist ideologue. Now you have your theme for several election cycles:
"You cannot trust Democrats. Ever."
This theme generally kept the Democrats out of functional power from 1981 to 2009.
Obama has never been in charge of anything, he has never had to come toan agreementwith people who opposed him on ideological grounds, he has only everapplied the Chicago method of negotiation: buy them or destroy them. He has never been opposed by people who can't be bought and who don't fear him and he doesn't know how to react.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at March 01, 2010 04:44 PM (sXLx/)

69 I get a tingle in my bowels, whenever the Dims start spinning. Yes, I know, it's a danger to get dehydrated, but I've got the hook up.

Posted by: 24/7 D5W infusion at March 01, 2010 04:45 PM (ucq49)

70
Vic,

Note that the Republicans after 1865 gained a majority as a result of fighting and winning a terrible civil war.

If you get my drift.

Posted by: Steve (aka Ed Snate) at March 01, 2010 04:46 PM (bdI++)

71 I thought the first course of action was "blame Bush", but what do I know?

4th course of action, perhaps?

Posted by: Nice Deb at March 01, 2010 04:47 PM (KOCyJ)

72 *sigh* They just can't keep their filthy hands off me these days. I get no respect I tell ya!

Posted by: That Chicken at March 01, 2010 04:49 PM (RHxVZ)

73 Their first course of action is to blame their candidates and call them
incompetent -- putting the blame on the messenger, not the message --
and the second course of action is to blame the public for being too
stupid to understand what they were saying.



Blaming the public is ALWAYS the first excuse, ace. In '04, the mantra was "How could 57 million people be so stupid?" (that one was one of the British fishwraps' election results front page headline) or Michael "gimme another donut" Moore's post-election observation that "57 million people didn't have the facts".

Blaming the messenger is a variation on the theme. "If the American people weren't so stupid, we wouldn't need such "exceptional" candidates to lead them."

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at March 01, 2010 04:50 PM (I/MqP)

74 But Ace, aren't many conservatives doing the same thing ... saying we need to be more conservative? Purge the centrists, the RINOs, whatever.

It's actually a very normal response to political failure: be more pure. To some degree, I think it's the correct response as it allows the extremes of any continuum to be re-focused.

But it is a losing strategy for the idealists, at least in the way most of them dream. The true benefit of the "pure the centrists" cause is that it tugs the center a bit to the extreme. That's the true essence of democracy.

If we conservatives want to win directly in 2012, we need to get a candidate who knows how to compromise, who understands the center. If we choose the purity route, we may well move the center to the right -- as we're doing now, dramatically -- but we'll do it in obscurity.

Posted by: ArcticBoy at March 01, 2010 04:53 PM (4fc2a)

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76 what's the next huge, overarching thing they're going to decide is a "right"? I'm thinking housing.


You mean, like the trial balloon from a couple of days ago where foreclosures are going to be banned unless approved by the Feds?

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at March 01, 2010 04:56 PM (I/MqP)

77 #30, you beat me to it. I don't know if Hillary is in it to sabotage Obama to the point she can run against him in the 2012 primaries or if she's just out for revenge on Obama and his ilk before she heads off to retirement.
Seriously, they're in their sixties, when the fuck are the Clintons just going to go away and enjoy all the money they've stolen?

Posted by: SGT Dan at March 01, 2010 04:58 PM (GgXZc)

78 It never ceases to amaze me the spin the dems can come up with to compliment their stupidity.

This one amounts to "we really need to pass this because we aren't good at getting shit passed."

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at March 01, 2010 04:59 PM (cpuvG)

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just going to go away and enjoy all the money they've stolen?

The implication being that if you're in your sixties, you're old?

Sir, I take issue with that formulation. Sir.

You whippersnapper, you.

(But I do wish the Clintons would go away.)

Posted by: Steve (aka Ed Snate) at March 01, 2010 05:01 PM (bdI++)

80 As to whatever mandate the Dems had to reform healthcare, that was before they instituted the "stimulus" spendathon, and before they socialized banks and automakers.

If those events hadn't happened, they wouldn't be receiving the level of pushback that they are. But the public, having seen the tendency of the government to socialize businesses (and screw over shareholders/bondholders in the process), is leery of allowing them to do the same with an industry that affects them on a far more personal level.

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82 Apparently, the way Odumbass is going to frame his debate is that the GOP is protecting insurance companies and not limited government.

Now if I am the GOP, I simply respond by yeah, damn right, people like having insurance and the prez doesn't want people to be able to have the insurance they like.

Next.

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their true faces; if they push this through against the will of 60% (at
this time) of the public, they will be destroying the party long term."

Meh, I'm not so sure. Never forget that this nation elected Obama in the first place. Nothing that has happened was even remotely unpredictable from the campaign. People just don't think clearly, and I suspect the democrats would recover faster than you think. Especially if they stack the death panels. Ha.

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Posted by: mercanaire at March 01, 2010 05:20 PM (GzZVw)

86 Meh, I'm not so sure. Never forget that this nation elected Obama in the first place. Nothing that has happened was even remotely unpredictable from the campaign. People just don't think clearly, and I suspect the democrats would recover faster than you think. Especially if they stack the death panels. Ha.
You're right in that this was predictable for people who were actually paying attention. Those who weren't paying attention were suckered in, but most people who get suckered get really angry about it and don't fall for it a second time (or at least for a long time as far as politics is concerned). It's why I think that if they succeed in pushing this through they will be damaging the Democrat brand for a long time. The ignorant won't pay attention to the details, but in the future they will see that (D) next to the candidate's name and remember Obama, and that will be that.
If they stop trying to push it through and move onto "the economy", they will stilllosesome seats thisfall but I don't think they would be damaging the party name long term.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at March 01, 2010 05:26 PM (sXLx/)

87 Note that the Republicans after 1865 gained a majority as a result of fighting and winning a terrible civil war.
Actually they got those huge majorities via "Reconstruction" in which the Republicans were elected at the point of a bayonet after the war.
But that was not my point. The Republicans lost that huge majority and never got it back because they overreached and acted with distain towards the other party. That is exactly what the Chicago jugeared jackass is doing now.
It is possible that the Dems will lose big time and now Republicans will go on the rise for the next 100 years.

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88 Democrats Rally Around Idea That They Have to Pass Unpopular Legislation to Prove They Can "Govern"
Why don't they just stand next to Slo Joe, so a pitiful few of them, in contrast, can show they can chew gum stand upright at the same time.
Governing. That's a neuron bundle, too far.

Posted by: History's Judgmental Comparison at March 01, 2010 06:21 PM (ucq49)

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FTFY.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at March 01, 2010 06:44 PM (k7LtL)

90 Nancy Botox Rictus asked all the Demo's to support this health bill 'even if it ruins their political careers." If it ruins their careers would that not indicate that the whole project is incredibly unpopular? That the majority of people hate the idea? Fuck this scrunt.

Posted by: JDC from Las Vegas at March 01, 2010 06:47 PM (3i4tF)

91 It's actually a very normal response to political failure: be more pure.
I'd probably be among the first at this site to tell you you're right and that these purity tests are an exercise in defeat strategy. But I would also point out that conservatism has a record we can point to, and that is a record of results.
It's one thing to say, "Marxism rocks, if the right people are in charge!" and quite another to say every time conservative ideas are implemented they work.

Posted by: spongeworthy at March 01, 2010 08:48 PM (rplL3)

92 "But now he's back on Team Obama, arguing that the Democrats must pass this, damn the consequences, just to prove they can "govern.""
Chris Matthews's liquor cabinet has been restocked, I take it.

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Yeah, and for awhile there Milli Vanilli made people think they could sing ... but we all know how that turned out.

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95 Sitting here in my 52 year old body trying to see a downside to young twenty somethings who today quite rationally tend to steer clear of any and all non mandated deductions from their pay being forced to pay. Tell me I'm dense and whatnot but am I truly missing something here? How can it be a bad thing if young people have to pay some to subsidize me? And by gawd if these young chumps want to do it to themselves who am I to argue?

Posted by: pc at March 02, 2010 08:52 PM (crDIp)

96 But now he's (Matthews) back on Team Obama, arguing that the Democrats must pass this, damn the consequences, just to prove they can "govern."

Dangerous. I'm getting worried again.
Dangerous and worried aren't strong enough terms to describe how I feel.
These idiots don't get it, but do they have to? Everything is a horse race with them and their media lackeys. Go! Go! Big O!
They have no appreciation for the consequences. Economic collapse. No more cheap borrowing, which leads to sky high inflation.
They are unique idiots. Put them in a zoo, or an aquarium.

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