What If We Won A War And No One Cared?

A combat veteran and accomplished author, David Bellavia is an honest to God American hero. As the US presences in Iraq winds down, he looks at the cost so many paid to make this moment of victory possible and the sad fact so many of our fellow citizens don't seem to care.

Someone is responsible for everything that goes wrong in America. It makes us feel better to know it wasnít our fault.

The war in Iraq was no different. While many scurried to blame Donald Rumsfeld, General Franks or President Bush for losing the war in Iraq, they bet against the American fighting men and women to turn the tide of the war. ďThe missionĒ in Iraq was evil. The troops would never be maligned as they were in Vietnam.

I donít begrudge these people. They simply will never get it. They are the type of people you need to protect in a society. They are innocent and naive.

It is the job of the warrior to hide them under the bed and tell them it will be okay, before we run off to combat the threat.

The ones that hold my contempt are those who, even today, know of the sacrifice made, the incredible progress gained and still will not acknowledge what was won on the ground in Iraq. They cheapen the sacrifice of how it was earned. Operation Iraqi Freedom is no more.

Operation New Dawn (the exact same name of the Battle of Fallujah in November 2004) is the new name of the deployment to Iraq.

What we achieved in the face of an implacable enemy, overcoming many in our own government willfully ignorant of our struggle, is what I believe to be the defining moment of my generation. The veteran today is the embodiment of what it means to be an American. Even when our valor was used for political sport, we continued to serve quietly.

There's more at the link. Please read his description of a young Iraqi woman who died for nothing more than the right to vote and the sacrifices of his comrades that enabled that day.

Iraq has been at a tipping point for awhile and probably will be for some time into the future. So was America a long, long time ago. It's a comparison that can be taken to far but the fact remains, no nation rises or falls in a straight line. There are ups and downs, success and failures. The final outcome for Iraq will not be known for years, probably decades. It is up to the Iraqis to decide that outcome and it always has been. It's a country with a lot of history going against it but thanks to hundreds of thousands of men and women (and their families) who served in the US military, they have an opportunity to build something reasonably decent by the standards of that part of the world and if they succeed, it will be of immeasurable benefit to us.

Far too many people were wrong about the Iraq War and don't have the decency to admit it now. Thankfully, we have men like David Bellavia, the guys at This Ain't Hell, Blackfive and a host of other proud veterans who continue to serve by reminding us of what they and their comrades, especially those who didn't survive, did and to tell their stories. In the long run, they will win again and take their well deserved place of honor in our nation's history.

In the meantime, the least we can do is remember what they did, celebrate their victory and challenge those who would deny what these heroes accomplished for our country.

Oh and we can say thank you.

Posted by: DrewM. at 02:46 PM



Comments

1 Great Post!

Posted by: Mjim at February 22, 2010 02:48 PM (V8B//)

2
Victory in Iraq is one of the greatest achievements of the Obama Administration.

Posted by: Sheriff Joe at February 22, 2010 02:50 PM (fx8sm)

3 Just ask Harry "the war is lkost" Reid. We shoyld make him the point man on one of the patrols over in the 'Stan and let him find the IEDs.

Posted by: Vic at February 22, 2010 02:53 PM (QrA9E)

4 Oh and we can say thank you.

Damn straight; when these guys come home they deserve ticker-tape (or whatever its modern equivalent) parades with no dissenters

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 22, 2010 02:53 PM (ypGDY)

5 I'm for the troops, but not their mission.

Posted by: Lib Dummy at February 22, 2010 02:55 PM (5I0Yr)

6 OT, over at American Spectator:

White House Accused of Federal Crime in Specter, Bennett Races

"For the second time in five months, the Obama White House
is being accused -- by Democrats -- of offering high ranking
government jobs in return for political favors. What no one is
reporting is that this is a violation of federal law that can
lead to prison time, a fine or both, according to Title 18,
Chapter 11, Section 211 of the United States Code."

spectator. org, go over the the weekly archives tab.

Posted by: shibumi at February 22, 2010 02:58 PM (OKZrE)

7 There was an idiot who had a letter to the editor this a.m. in WSJ that wrote the following:
"It is difficult to argue that U.S. national security has been enhanced by the removal of Sadaam Hussein because Iran's theocratic regime, which is building nuclear weapons, poses a greater threat to not only the U.S. but to the whole world.
Hussein was a bloodthirsty dictator, but he was mostly concerned about maintaining hegemony in his own region, having fought a costly war against Iran from 1981 to 1988. Moreover, the U.S. war in Iraq has cost over $750 billion and contributed to the increase in our national debt, raising it to perilously high levels. Therefore, it is difficult to argue that the removal of Saddam Hussein was worth the cost in lives and money when Iran represents a greater danger to our national interests.
The author of this letter, one Lee Rice, conveniently neglects to mention Saddam's own nuclear aspirations, the fact that he produced and used WMD's on his own people, the fact he violated a raft of UN resolutions, and the fact that he was sponsering terrorism (training camps, providing funding for Palestinian suicide bombers, etc.) I'm sure if the U.S. even so much as looked a cross eyed sanction at Iran, this same Mr. Rice would be screaming about the hardships that such sanctions would impose on the innocent people of Iran.
I am truly greatful for the service of all who have served our country. I think most conservatives think of and pray for our brave members of the military daily. The other side, not so much.

Posted by: runningrn at February 22, 2010 03:00 PM (CfmlF)

8 Oh, and Dave Bellavia is an absolute rock star.

Posted by: runningrn at February 22, 2010 03:01 PM (CfmlF)

9 If you haven't read it yet, go get Bellavia's "House To House." It's an important book that everyone should read.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 03:01 PM (9fjyr)

10 They'll get a "thank you" from me whether they want one or not:

Thank you.

Understated, of course, but what could be said that would suffice?

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at February 22, 2010 03:02 PM (swuwV)

11 Here's a link to a great video of Dave Bellavia and Pete Hegseth infiltrating "The Peace Bus" during the Democrat National Convention (I think during the 2004 election):
http://tinyurl.com/yd2srth

Posted by: runningrn at February 22, 2010 03:03 PM (CfmlF)

12 All of us bitter clinger types out here in middle-America do care, deeply, and do know what our troops accomplished.

We have a president who's allergic to uttering the words "freedom" and "victory", but he doesn't represent my point of view.

Posted by: stace at February 22, 2010 03:03 PM (g/wgk)

13 shibumi@6:

So, the slow march to impeachment begins?

I can live with that. First, we need the House.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at February 22, 2010 03:05 PM (swuwV)

14 Its still not too late to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Posted by: Harry Reid at February 22, 2010 03:05 PM (Q5pQP)

15 "For the second time in five months, the Obama White House is being accused -- by Democrats -- of offering high ranking government jobs in return for political favors. What no one is reporting is that this is a violation of federal law that can lead to prison time, a fine or both, according to Title 18, Chapter 11, Section 211 of the United States Code."


The amount of criminal activity committed by this administration is absolutely unprecedented! Geez, Bill and Hill were absolute pikers compared to this bunch. Of course, there's nothing to see here, hence the media's disinterest in picking any of this crap up.

Posted by: runningrn at February 22, 2010 03:06 PM (CfmlF)

16 How the FUCK can the SENATE MAJORITY LEADER say "the war is lost" on April 2007 and it not be a MSM issue til this very day??

Posted by: gus at February 22, 2010 03:06 PM (Vqruj)

17 gus: "...and it not be a MSM issue til this very day??"

Aha, grasshopper. You said the magic word acronym.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at February 22, 2010 03:10 PM (swuwV)

18 George Bush and Dick Cheney are evil warmongers! The Surge Failed and I rule the world!
I told you in 2007 on the house floor Bush/Cheney were plotting War with Iran via False Flag operation, you know I was right that is why you voted me in at CPAC. I now own the GOP and Conservatism.
The Iraq War is evil and unconstitutional - screw you neo-cons. Once I win in 2012 as GOP nominee I will immediately order the closing of all Foreign Military bases, 90% of Active Duty peronel, the CIA and FBI and apologize to the world for all the Evil the neo-cons did to them!
- Ron Paul
RON PAUL 2012 .......woooo hooooooo diggity!

Posted by: paultard at February 22, 2010 03:10 PM (DFDtC)

19 Moreover, the U.S. war in Iraq has cost over $750 billion and
contributed to the increase in our national debt, raising it to
perilously high levels.

That's $100B less than the porkulus.



Posted by: HeatherRadish at February 22, 2010 03:11 PM (mR7mk)

20 Celebrating their win is a plus. Respecting and honoring their sacrifice is a must.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at February 22, 2010 03:12 PM (tf9Ne)

21 And: thank you.

Posted by: Truman North at February 22, 2010 03:13 PM (e8YaH)

22 Our military is the only government program that works. And kills.

Posted by: Dr. Spank at February 22, 2010 03:14 PM (0FiCa)

23 I care...a lot.
I had a very interesting conversation with some far left members of my extended family at a gathering a couple of weeks ago. They conceded that Iraq was a success and a model for the Middle East.\
We share kinship with several who served...one who was very severely injured in the dining facility bombing in Mosul in 2004.
Thing is...I don't know if that is how they actually feel...or if they agrred with me simply because they knowI would go nuclear if they dare denigrate their service in front of me

Posted by: beedubya at February 22, 2010 03:17 PM (AnTyA)

24 Gus, he can do so because the vast majority of the MSM AGREES with him! They think he was RIGHT. They are as complicit as he when it comes to sedition.

Posted by: Dell at February 22, 2010 03:19 PM (H/+W/)

25 this isn't bragging..I have bought dozens of beers...lunches...dinners..for uniformed service members over the past few years at airports...
.I don't ask if they have been deployed...doesn't matter..
What I've spent is a pittance compared to what they've done..or were ready to do on our behalf

Posted by: beedubya at February 22, 2010 03:21 PM (AnTyA)

26 Hussein was a bloodthirsty dictator, but he was mostly concerned about maintaining hegemony in his own region,
Well, if it was only regional hegemony...nope, nothing to be concerned about.
Does that guy own a map or does he think Iraq is located in the Oklahoma panhandle?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 22, 2010 03:21 PM (B+qrE)

27 Yeah I pushed this point a couple times over the last year: we've won, we accomplished our goals, and nobody seems to give a damn, not conservatives, not the left, not the press, no one.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 22, 2010 03:24 PM (PQY7w)

28 Our military is the only government program that works. And kills.
Posted by: Dr. Spank at February 22, 2010 03:14 PM (0FiCa)
--If 0bamacare passes, it will certainly accomplish the latter.

Posted by: logprof at February 22, 2010 03:31 PM (omtdM)

29 we've won, we accomplished our goals, and nobody seems to give a damn, not conservatives, not the left, not the press, no one.
People give a damn, but they believe they have to stay quiet about it. The left has made sure that even flying the flag might be considered racist.

There is no good, no evil, no winning or losing, just an empire trying to steal some oil from some brown people. And 9/11 may or may not have been done by Bush. Who but a few of us strongheaded bastards (and bastardettes) are going to openly cheer?

Posted by: The Mega Independent at February 22, 2010 03:34 PM (5I0Yr)

30 Great post and well said

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 22, 2010 03:35 PM (0GFWk)

31 The left used the Iraqi War to make Bush unpopular and push the country towards socialism. The US winning it doesn't really fit into the narrative that is important for promoting Obama's progressive agenda. So of course its a complete non-news story.

Posted by: Drew in MO at February 22, 2010 03:38 PM (gbg8v)

32 Bravo Zulu to the five services.
Congress...nothing for you, ya sucks.

Posted by: Mikey NTH at February 22, 2010 03:42 PM (O9Cc8)

33 I believe that one day those who maligned our troops and their heroic efforts in Iraq, who diminished their sacrifice by referring to the war as something to be "ended" rather than won, and who then used our troops' valor as political props when things started to turn around, will be regarded by future generations as the foul unpatriotic quizling douchebags that they are. Yes, Barry, Plugs, Dingy Harry, and Nancy. I'm talking about you.

Posted by: Tiger01 at February 22, 2010 03:42 PM (tKc1n)

34 I can't wait for our courageous victorious troops to come home...and run for office.

Posted by: kathysaysso at February 22, 2010 03:45 PM (ZtwUX)

35 Uh,
We haven't "won" anything yet, so let's not bring out the champagne. If Iraq stabilizes on its own and if the Middle East doesn't go completely to shit, then we can say "yeah, we won." Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, we have a lot of American dead for nothing whatsoever. Same goes for Afghanistan. We tend to think way too much in the short term and ignore the long term implications of things. I'm really, really interested (and concerned)to see what happens in Iraq when Obama pulls out the troops by August.
Yeah, we beat (more or less) al qaeda, but the bigger threat has always been Iran. As far as I can tell, we haven't done anything to them, and they're still very much there. I fail to see how we can shoot up some al qaedashits,pull out, say "yay, we won" and then watch Iran slowly turn Iraq into a potential protectorate and note this as a "major victory."
The question still remains as to whether we're willing, as a country, to stick it out for the long term...

Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 03:46 PM (d8AS2)

36 Part of the problem here for some I imagine is that even though it is essential "thank
you" just falls so short of what they deserve. I certainly say it but
there is something embarrassing about how cheap it is. I donno, I was
in the Navy and (used to, I need to get my ass back in gear) volunteer
for Navy/Marine Relief which is getting off incredibly cheap compared
to what these guys have gone through. How do you thank someone for your
freedom and your safety? How do you do it without looking like a
blubbering child? Assembling care packages with the blue haired babes
from the seinor center is nice I guess, but I'm still embarrassed when
I see some kid who is a less than half my age that I am already deeply
indebted to. Embarrassed too that I have reverted into someone who
occasionally sleeps in until noon when they are dodging IED's.

I say thank you in the parking lots and the supermarkets but it doesn't
come close to the expressing the debt of gratitude I owe to these young
men and women.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 03:47 PM (9fjyr)

37 IF Iraq was such a great victory why is it that 2/3s of the Iraqi Christians ( 1 million) are still living outside of Iraq afraid that they will be killed if they try and return to their homes ? Why is it that the new Iraqi government is best friends with our sworn enemies the Iranians ? Why is it that we got rid of Saddam who was Iran's biggest nightmare ? Why is it that Iraq hasn't at least paid us back in oil for their liberation ?

Posted by: Noah at February 22, 2010 03:50 PM (mhD2v)

38 36Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, we have a lot of American dead for nothing whatsoever. Same goes for Afghanistan. Posted by: Mat

Have you seen any planes full of people being flown into buildings full of people recently? No? Because the shit herd has been busy getting martyred culled in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 03:51 PM (9fjyr)

39 5
I'm for the troops, but not their mission.

I'm rooting for the US hockey team, but not to win a gold medal.

Posted by: real joe at February 22, 2010 03:53 PM (IAOAn)

40 38
IF Iraq was such a great victory why is it that 2/3s of the Iraqi
Christians ( 1 million) are still living outside of Iraq... waaah waaah waaaah...



Posted by: NoahYeah, because it isn't a victory until everything is absolutely perfect, right?

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 03:53 PM (9fjyr)

41 Its so obviously avictorythat eventhe most stupid person on earth acknowledged it publicly - Joe Biden. Nuff said.

Posted by: joe at February 22, 2010 03:57 PM (rf1Kd)

42
Remember a lot of these guys are running for office. I can't wait to hear them in Congress.


Posted by: Mr. Peabody at February 22, 2010 04:00 PM (09ntO)

43 I just pray that this sacrifice, which has proven to be several orders of magnitude larger than even the most pessimistic prognosticator ever imagined, will all be worth it.

Right now, I am not terribly optimistic that it will be.

Posted by: rawmuse at February 22, 2010 04:03 PM (rwwIb)

44 But, thanks anyway.

Posted by: rawmuse at February 22, 2010 04:05 PM (rwwIb)

45 What do you mean, nobody cares? This victory is the single greatest achievment of the Obama Administration to-date! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Posted by: Joe Biden at February 22, 2010 04:18 PM (V40IZ)

46 Hey, Noah--would you like fries with your gross oversimplifications?
Saddam is not in charge in Iraq. That makes it a net better. Not a perfect better, but a net better.
Next.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 22, 2010 04:23 PM (B+qrE)

47 Again, I wore the uniform with PRIDE,but when I see these young men and women serving today, I feel humbled.

And thank them with a smile on a daily basis.

Posted by: irongrampa at February 22, 2010 04:25 PM (ud5dN)

48
Well when sufficient time has passed from this, say a few years from now, and the Iraqi war is more acceptable as raw material for drama, expect Hollywood halfwits who were once lining up against the war cash in for starring roles about the heroes they refused to support.


Posted by: Mr. Peabody at February 22, 2010 04:32 PM (09ntO)

49 @polynikes,

And we scared the shit out of the muslim world: by showing them that we are far, far stronger than they could have imagined, and by bringing a bit of freedom to one corner of their cesspool.

Obama has squandered some of that, but the intelligent ones understand that we are one national election away from returning to our strength as a nation, and that should give them pause.

Posted by: NJConservative at February 22, 2010 04:41 PM (/Ywwg)

50 We haven't completely won yet, but it was evident even before Obama took office that we were getting there. It isn't necessarily pretty, but the democratic government of Iraq is, in large part, dealing with its own problems with its own resources; that is what we were working to build when I was over there in 06-07. It is too far along for the libs to engineer total defeat like they were hoping for when Reid made his infamous comments, so they instead pretend that the whole thing isn't happening. Pretty shameful in its own right. I look forward to Harry Reid, and others like him, shuffling off this mortal coil so that I can go water their graves in the fashion that they have earned.

Posted by: Hatchet Five at February 22, 2010 04:44 PM (tafgh)

51 The Military Channel did an episode with David Bellavia describing his actions during the battle of Fallujah. If you haven't seen it it's worth watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2emcyHO9Xk

Posted by: pitythefool at February 22, 2010 04:53 PM (Sg8sX)

52 Hidden Imam,
"Have you seen any planes full of people being flown into buildings full of people recently? No? Because the shit herd has been busy getting martyred culled in Iraq and Afghanistan."

OMG, since it hasn't happened in a whole 9 years, then it'll never happen again will it??? Of course not. That would require more than short term thinking.
Consider this. If Iran gets nukes (and I believe it's a "when", not an "if"), then they can pretty much do whatever they want. Don't believe me? Take a look at Pakistan. Those assholes are the biggest culprits (along with Saudi Arabia) in this entire war and we treat them with kid gloves. You really think that's because they're our good and faithful allies? Cuz I think it's because they have nukes. As a result, al qaeda and the Taliban have been able to just reload and attack since 2001. It's called the Northwest Frontier.
Now, let me paint another picture for you. Iran gets nukes. They love to play the terrorist game. You really honestly think that once they get nukes, they won't provide an umbrella of protection to groups that hate us? So in addition to fighting in eastern Afghanistan, we'll have to cover the western border as well. And it gets even better! Since Pakistan and Iran have a common border, they can just run back and forth across the borders to engage our troops. We've barely been able to contain al qaeda along the eastern border. What'll it be like with a western front opening up?
Oh yeah, and for those who will laugh and say "that'll never happen because Sunnis hate Shiites." Well, remember the adage: the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and believe me, the muslims play that game very well indeed. If Iran has to swallow its pride for a little while so they can inflict a defeat on us, they'd do it in a heartbeat. In. a. Heartbeat.
However, by all means, get your chest all puffed out and hoot and hollar about how awesome we're doing. But just remember that it's all short term thinking and things can change in a moment's notice. It's too bad we're not paying any attention to the long term.

Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 04:55 PM (d8AS2)

53

No True Glory is also an excellent look at the on-the-ground fighting in Fallujah, and Shooter is a great book on the initial invasion march itself.


Both HIGHLY recommended

Posted by: s'moron at February 22, 2010 05:08 PM (UaxA0)

54 Oh and we can say thank you.
I hope they never tire of hearing it, because I do that at any and every opportunity.

Posted by: Soap MacTavish at February 22, 2010 05:09 PM (554T5)

55 Another case of the defining moment of a generation where the valor of American troops was perniciously downgraded for political reasons, Col. Robert Howard, the only man ever to be nominated three times for the Congressional Medal of Honor, was buried in Arlington Cemetery today. This got scant coverage. Even when he died there was remarkably little attention paid. He deserved better.

Posted by: Erwin at February 22, 2010 05:13 PM (cjADH)

56 It can never be said enough to all of our service men and women, past, present and future.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. You have our backs all the time, and without you all standing on that wall, our most precious asset - our freedom -would be over and out.
.

Posted by: RM at February 22, 2010 05:16 PM (1kwr2)

57 They are the type of people you need to protect in a society. They are innocent and naive.
I prefer to think of them as cynical and malign haters of freedom and the country and people who guarantee those freedoms. But that may just be me.

Posted by: huerfano at February 22, 2010 05:24 PM (gLSaO)

58 Thank you. I live near Fort Carson. Every night, "Taps" wafts up the hill. Thank you.

Posted by: Thomas Hooker at February 22, 2010 05:30 PM (W/MMc)

59 Occasionally, I've completely blown up at lefties over stuff like this. With their "War of choice..." "No real U.S. Interest..." bullshit. Can they not read a map? Do not know what that region looks like? Do they not understand the massive strategic importance of having a friendly, liberated country smack freaking dab in the middle of what is probably the greatest flashpoint in world politics (i.e. Israel and Iran) and economics (petroleum) today?

Unbelievable. This is an enormous victory that will pay benefits to both America and the entire world for generations.

Posted by: mr.frakypants at February 22, 2010 05:52 PM (pffBj)

60 Mr. Frakypants,
The war continues. Nothing has been won yet. Let's save the champagne celebrationuntil we actually achieve victory, k?

Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 05:59 PM (d8AS2)

61 Harry Reid: The war is lost!
I wanted to punch the ahole right in his rotten mouth. And I still do.
But instead, our troops have to throw him under the bed and whisper sweet nothings in his ear to keep him from crying out loud while they die protecting him. F%^k him.
God bless our troops. Without them, we would be speaking British through bad teeth (Ha), Spanish, German and or Ruskie, or heaven forbid, frenchie frenchman.

Posted by: Andrew at February 22, 2010 06:00 PM (7PFqt)

62 55MatOMG, since it hasn't happened in a whole 9 years, then it'll never happen again will it???

Gee, the idiot missed the point. Shocked.

If Iran gets nukes (and I believe it's a "when", not an "if"), then they can pretty much do whatever they want.

Well we should be doing something to stop them. Right?
"Take a look at Pakistan. Those assholes are the biggest culprits
(along with Saudi Arabia) in this entire war and we treat them with kid
gloves"

We have special forces operating in Pakistan. And no, we shouldn't be treating them with "kid gloves". What does that have to do with you showing a little gratitude for the people who risked their lives so you could remain an obnoxious man-child child?

Now, let me paint another picture for you.
No.

However, by all means, get your chest all puffed out and hoot and hollar about how awesome we're doing.

Our objectives are being met in Iraq, despite the incompetence of our elected officials who did their best to send out some of the finest people this country produces out on a limb and then proceed to try to cut that limb out from under them. Our objectives are being met in Iraq despite the infantile narcissism of the population who think it is owed to them to have people die in the name of protecting their lazy asses while they stuff their face on the couch and watch Jersey Shore.
I don't expect you to have the class to show a little gratitude to the people who at the very least have given up a large chunk of their life to see to it that you can be fat dumb and happy but the least you can do is shut the fuck up when you see an opportunity to pour scorn on their achievements in order to mentally masturbate and score some imaginary political point at their expense.
If you can't bring yourself to do that or to carry your own weight so they don't have to you should go find some other country to complain in.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 06:09 PM (9fjyr)

63 To all who have served and those who are currently serving:

My humble thanks. I can't say that enough.

To their Moms and Dads:

Thank you for raising your kids right.

To their families:

Thank you for your sacrifices while your Moms,Dads, Husbands,Wives, Boyfriends,Girlfriends protect my freedom.


Posted by: SDH at February 22, 2010 06:13 PM (4fofT)

64 64The war continues. Nothing has been won yet. Let's save the champagne celebrationuntil we actually achieve victory, k?

Posted by: MatNo one is expecting champagne but a lot has been "won". Are troops will return with honor despite the constant complaining of those who don't give a shit that they just had their ungrateful asses protected at the cost of the lives of better people.
Good god, you are like a tic on a dogs ass complaining that the dog isn't going fast enough.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 06:14 PM (9fjyr)

65 Oh and we can say thank you.

My 4 year old son says "thank you" to every soldier he sees.

It's not much, but it has never been unappreciated.

Posted by: mpur at February 22, 2010 06:17 PM (7m5P2)

66 I care.
Semper Fidelis, Morons.

Posted by: DPR VIII at February 22, 2010 06:25 PM (4XUD3)

67 Attention Mat:



The ones that hold my contempt are those who, even today, know of the
sacrifice made, the incredible progress gained and still will not
acknowledge what was won on the ground in Iraq. They cheapen the
sacrifice of how it was earned.



That is all.

Posted by: DPR VIII at February 22, 2010 06:31 PM (4XUD3)

68 Our objectives are being met in Iraq,
Which ones, finding and removing WMDs?

Posted by: anon at February 22, 2010 06:41 PM (j/wD+)

69 DPR,

Contempt me all you want. I'm well aware of the sacrifices made. My point is whether those sacrifices will be in vain or not. If we leave and let Iraq fall apart only to be taken over, de facto, by Iran, then we haven't "won" anything, have we? I'm not an anti-war person. I want us to win, and I mean, really win. I don't want a hollow pretend victory. I want it to stick. However, I don't really think that pulling our troops out in August is a really good idea (though the Messiah seems to think so). We'll see. But I don't think anything is a win until it truly is a win. "That is all."

Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 07:02 PM (d8AS2)

70 72Which ones, finding and removing WMDs?

Posted by: anonYup. That was one of them. Thanks for sharing your bumper sticker.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 07:04 PM (9fjyr)

71 "No one is expecting champagne but a lot has been "won". Are troops will return with honor despite the constant complaining of those who don't give a shit that they just had their ungrateful asses protected at the cost of the lives of better people."
There is "winning" and then there is winning. I don't see how returning with honor has to do with stabilizing the middle east. If Iraq goes down the tubes, then we haven't won anything. Why is this so difficult to understand? You honestly think the troops over there want to see a half-assed victory? I seriously doubt it.
"Good god, you are like a tic on a dogs ass complaining that the dog isn't going fast enough."
Actually, my issue is not with the troops over there, but with politicians and a civilian population that knows nothing of what war is. They have the true power and they can yank the soldiers out whenever they want. And I believe they will. Despite the fact that the troops need to be there for at least another decade (in my opinion) to make sure everything, and I mean everything, is set, we will pull out at the worst possible moment (in August). The Iraqisare not ready to stand on their own yet. It's like being in a football game, leading by a touchdown with30 seconds to go, calling it a day and walking off the field withyour opponent with the ball. Is that clear enough for you?

Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 07:11 PM (d8AS2)

72 If the Bush administration had said "we need to invade Iraq to remove Sadam and to establish a democracy there" no one would have supported that. Yet now we are being told that was worth American lives. I disagree.
Since we ARE there and lives have already been lost I certainly hope something positive comes out of it, but it was a mistake.
BTW - I'm a Navy vet, served 4 years.

Posted by: anon at February 22, 2010 07:15 PM (j/wD+)

73 What would be so very cool is if the TEA parties across the US could organize a victory celebration of some sort and invite George W Bush to preside over the festivities. You know damn well that Mubarack Hussein Obama would never in his wildest dreams think of something like this.

Posted by: marmo at February 22, 2010 07:22 PM (Tm9Vp)

74 SSG Bellavia, you and your compatriots who are stateside need tobe at the Lincoln Memorial in DC on 8/28/10. There, millions of Americans are going to personally thank you for your service with the "Restoring Honor" event. It's about a year late re Iraq, but Glenn Beck sounds like he's organizing one hell of an effort. I can't wait!
To all servicemen and women, thank you for your service. To all the fallen, our hearts break for lives cut short in service to your country and for the searing pain it causes your families. We will never forget you.

Posted by: RushBabe at February 22, 2010 07:32 PM (LKkE8)

75 It still never ceases to amaze me how cockholsters like Mat and Noah can spout their bullshit when the truth is out there for all to see.
The war in Iraq is OVER. We WON. The troops are coming home. And it was the e-vil BOOOSH who ran it all, up to and including arranging the phaseout of the troops. Obambi didn't have a goddamn thing to do with it.
Yes, the Paks are also cockholsters who already have nukes. The Iranian cockholsters will no doubt have nukes in a few years. The only way to fix that problem would be to send in the B-2's with JDAMs and bunker busters and take out their facilities. And I can just hear the howls of outrage from the proggies if that had been done. So don't come back here whining about that when you would not have approved of anything being done about it in the first place.

Posted by: Cave Bear at February 22, 2010 07:33 PM (WmZrs)

76 Hidden Imam,
"OMG, since it hasn't happened in a whole 9 years, then it'll never happen again will it???Gee, the idiot missed the point. Shocked."
Uh, you're the one who made the statement that we haven't been attacked. Therefore we "won." I merely argued that we are winning thus far, which is hardly the same as "won." Unfortunately, there are a lotof people in this country who do, in fact, think that we have simply won, period. I merely point out that this is not the case. No need to get all puffed up with anger over this. If you cannot handle the facts, then perhaps you shouldn't argue.
"If Iran gets nukes (and I believe it's a "when", not an "if"), then they can pretty much do whatever they want.Well we should be doing something to stop them. Right?"
Yeah, I've seen so much being done to correct that problem. It seems more like we're busy making armpit fart noises until we actually see a nuke detonation from one of their tests insoutheastern Iran. Again, you fail to notice your own point. "Should" is not the same as "are." I'll continue.
"Take a look at Pakistan. Those assholes are the biggest culprits (along with Saudi Arabia) in this entire war and we treat them with kid gloves"We have special forces operating in Pakistan. And no, we shouldn't be treating them with "kid gloves"."
Ok, third time's a charm...I think. We have some special forces there, yes. Not nearly enough. Personally, I think we should have a hell of a lot more than just a few special forces in Pakistan right now. In fact, I think we should be talking to India about how they can help us beat their longtime enemies into total submission. But that's just me. And yes, I assure you that we are treating the Pakis and Saudis with kid gloves, for obvious reasons.
"What does that have to do with you showing a little gratitude for the people who risked their lives so you could remain an obnoxious man-child child?"
Actually, my issue had nothing to do with the soldiers. They will do their job and do it well. I have no doubt about that. However, we're all back here patting ourselves on the back about how we're doing so awesome in this war. I merely pointed out that this war is not over yet, nor will it be for a long time. You really think soldiers will thank us, the civilian population, for yanking them out at the point of victory?
"Now, let me paint another picture for you.No."
Yeah, something about that obnoxiouschild comment you stated earlier..."However, by all means, get your chest all puffed out and hoot and hollar about how awesome we're doing. Our objectives are being met in Iraq, despite the incompetence of our elected officials who did their best to send out some of the finest people this country produces out on a limb and then proceed to try to cut that limb out from under them."
Our objectives will be met when Iran has been humbled and is not a threat to Iraq. Our objectives will be met when al qaeda has been completely destroyed in Iraq. Our objectives will be met when Iraq does actually have something resembling a democracy. And yet again, in the process of achieving these objectives is not the same as "we achieved them." And you're right. Our elected officials will somehow find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. It wouldn't be the first time, would it?
Our objectives are being met in Iraq despite the infantile narcissism of the population who think it is owed to them to have people die in the name of protecting their lazy asses while they stuff their face on the couch and watch Jersey Shore."
Ah, never underestimate the power of the stupidity of the civilian population. They often do things that are extremely irrational, no matter how much it'll hurt them in the long run. I almost expect it nowadays. Afterall, they did elect this effing clown to the presidency over a year ago, right?
"I don't expect you to have the class to show a little gratitude to the people who at the very least have given up a large chunk of their life to see to it that you can be fat dumb and happy but the least you can do is shut the fuck up when you see an opportunity to pour scorn on their achievements in order to mentally masturbate and score some imaginary political point at their expense."
Oh, I do show gratitude. ButI think the soldiers would rather that we just let them do their jobs instead of groveling to themin an empty manner andyank the rug out from under them. If it were up to me, Marjah would have been destroyed way before Marines needed to be sent in. But then, if it were up to me, this thing would have been finishedby 2002 with far less American casualties than we currently have. Pity the rest of the country doesn't see it that way. By the way, very good of you to point out class, given those comments. Or the lack thereof.
"If you can't bring yourself to do that or to carry your own weight so they don't have to you should go find some other country to complain in."
Yes, I suppose I should run right over to Canada or Europe because I dared to point out a few problems with "we won, we're so awesome!" Problem is that those two areas are starting to get overrun with Muslims, so that doesn't help me much. Nope, I think I'll stay here. But thanks for offering those options...

Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 07:35 PM (d8AS2)

77 David Bellavia did a better job of summing it up than I could.

By the middle of my brigade's third tour, I would have crucified every living thing in that country and sterilized the landscape with chemical or nuclear weapons if it would have made for a "win", so it wasn't all for nothing. After the first horror, the rest get a lot easier. General Casey never seemed to get the hang of that when he was the MNF-I commander.

Anyone know the status of Bellavia's Medal of Honor nomination, or is he stuck with his interim Silver Star?

Posted by: SGT Dan at February 22, 2010 07:43 PM (KLFGv)

78 Cave Bear,
"It still never ceases to amaze me how cockholsters like Mat and Noah can spout their bullshit when the truth is out there for all to see."
Oh no, I've been called a "cockholster." Whatever shall I do?
"The war in Iraq is OVER. We WON."
Yep, you keep thinking that. Come back and tell me what's happened in 10 years from now, ok?
"The troops are coming home."
Um, the troops are coming home because the Messiah seeks an incomplete victory in Iraq. They need to stay much longer than they have.
"And it was the e-vil BOOOSH who ran it all, up to and including arranging the phaseout of the troops. Obambi didn't have a goddamn thing to do with it."
No, Bush never had a strict timetable to pull out. It was a contingency, nothing more. I don't think Bush would have ever agreed to those troops pulling out now. And I'm sure the "tossed salad for Obama media" would still be hammering him for that. The current idiot in charge is simply yanking them all out, regardless of what the situation looks like.
"Yes, the Paks are also cockholsters who already have nukes. The Iranian cockholsters will no doubt have nukes in a few years."
Well, I'm certainly glad we agree on something.
"The only way to fix that problem would be to send in the B-2's with JDAMs and bunker busters and take out their facilities."
Yeah, and I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you too. You really believe that we're actually going to do that? I mean, it may end up actually killing some of the enemy. And we all know we wouldn't want that...
"And I can just hear the howls of outrage from the proggies if that had been done."
Yeah, "if" is the operational word. But since we're not going to, there's no point in getting all orgasmic about what could have been, is there?
"So don't come back here whining about that when you would not have approved of anything being done about it in the first place."
Huh? What have I whined about? I merely pointed out some discrepencies and I've been badmouthed for it. Last time I checked, it wasn't a crime to talk freely. Read my passages above. If it were up to me, this war would have been over by now. I believe in the genghis khan/sherman approach to war. It's unfortunate that we have decided to play pretend war. But it's a reality. Deal with it.

Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 07:45 PM (d8AS2)

79 There is "winning" and then there is winning.
So your complaining that we won but didn't win.I don't see how returning with honor has to do with stabilizing the middle east.
It's comfy with your head up there, isn't it?


Actually, my issue is not with the troops over there, but with
politicians and a civilian population that knows nothing of what war
is.

I thought your issue was that we had emboldened Iran. Or was it that the terrorists might attack again despite having killed off a bunch of jihads? Or that we're not paying any attention to the long term. Or that "we have a lot of American dead for nothing whatsoever." Or that we were chest thumping?
Seems you just want to toss crap until something sticks. Kind of confirms what Bellavia was writing.
"They have the true power and they can yank the soldiers out
whenever they want. And I believe they will."
That wouldn't be the military fault though, it would be the fault of the people who helped elect a thoroughly incompetent C and C. Regardless, If we leave Iraq with a functional quasi-democracy the that's about all we can do and that is all we set out to do. Yes, it could all unravel but at some point you have to trust the generals who are saying it wont.
we will pull
out at the worst possible moment (in August).

There will still be 50,000 troops in Iraq and they are there indefinitely.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 07:46 PM (9fjyr)

80 SGT Dan,
Exactly. My sentiments exactly. All we've done so far is to get good soldiers killed or maimed for little return. I don't want this to be for nothing, a la Vietnam, Somalia, etc.
The soldiers were never the issue for me. Yes, they are our best and brightest. What angers me is that we, in general,have this "whoopie" attitude towards war until it gets semi-brutal and then we don't want to play anymore. Then we take our toys and go home. Butas Charlie Wilson said in the movie,"that ball, that ball keeps on bouncing." The very end of the moviequote was also very appropriate for this conversation as well...

Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 07:49 PM (d8AS2)

81 83 Regardless, If we leave Iraq with a functional quasi-democracy the that's about all we can do and that is all we set out to do.

I was never told that was the mission.
Do you really think a quasi-democracy is worth a few thousand American deaths?

Posted by: anon at February 22, 2010 07:55 PM (j/wD+)

82 76f the Bush administration had said "we need to
invade Iraq to remove Sadam and to establish a democracy there" no one
would have supported that.

And you speak for everyone. That wasn't the only objective. Our intel, British intel, French intel, German intel even Chineese Intel was saying that Saddam had WMD. As well as a whole lot of dead Kurds and Marsh Arabs. It was an objective to ensure the Iraq didn't have WMD's and we did so. It certainty wasn't the only objective of the war.

Yet now we are being told that was worth
American lives. I disagree.

Whether or not you agree with the mission is besides the point as to whether or not it was successful or not. Whether or not you agreed with the reasoning behind going there is completely irrelevant to the debt of gratitude you and I owe to the people who did. They were given a mission and despite endless circular arguments like this and downright treachery from the people who we elected to send them there they pulled it off.

BTW - I'm a Navy vet, served 4 years.
Sure it wasn't the Air Force?

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 07:59 PM (9fjyr)

83 While Ronald Reagan, the neoconservatives, Lady Thatcher and Pope John Paul II were winning the Cold War,Liberals likeChris Dodd were busy attacking them and telling us they were all"on the wrong side of history." After theVictory, Liberalsrefused to admit they were wrong and claimed that it all would have happened anyway and they had nothing to do with it. For awhile, the truth becamewidely known,and now Liberals have again attakced Reagan on this very point and are again trying to discredit him again. History is not at all always written by the Victors. But we gratefully accepted that victory was enough, and we have been victorious no matter who ever says what.

Posted by: 7HEAVENS at February 22, 2010 08:02 PM (i9kUd)

84
85I was never told that was the mission.
Sure you were, you just are too thick to get it.
Do you really think a quasi-democracy is worth a few thousand American deaths?
Giving all of the shit in the middle east a local, all purpose, 1 stop place to go die in the name of Jihad instead of murdering Americans on their own soil.. That worth anything to you?
Amazing. Fine, you don't think it was worth it. Sorry if you were inconvenienced by other people fighting for the country and constitution. You can fuck off now.





Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 08:04 PM (9fjyr)

85 WMDs was the only objective stated before the war. After none were found the other "objectives" surfaced.
We would have served them better if we had not sent them to die to obtain (in your words) "a quasi-democracy"
Funny how a guy that is strident about "supporting the troops" just insulted all of the ones in the Air Force.
I'll assume you didn't even serve at all.

Posted by: anon at February 22, 2010 08:08 PM (j/wD+)

86 Hidden Imam,
"There is "winning" and then there is winning.
So your complaining that we won but didn't win."
Wow. Winning does not mean "won (which is past tense). Jesus, how many times do I have to repeat this?
"I don't see how returning with honor has to do with stabilizing the middle east.
It's comfy with your head up there, isn't it? "
So instead of coming up with a semi-intelligent answer, you insult. Wow, I can see why you're one of those hollow "rah-rah" types.
"Actually, my issue is not with the troops over there, but with politicians and a civilian population that knows nothing of what war is.
I thought your issue was that we had emboldened Iran."
Isn't a civilian population that knows nothing of war, not to mention idiot politicians kinda link with an "emboldened Iran?"
"Or was it that the terrorists might attack again despite having killed off a bunch of jihads?"
Yeah, I'd say they'll attack again. They've shown no signs of letup so far. Can we say the same for our government or people?
"Or that we're not paying any attention to the long term."
We're not. We just elected a jackass (literally and figuratively) to the White House with the understanding that the world will like us better if we castrate ourselves. I think that pretty much answers the question of thinking long term, doesn't it?
"Or that "we have a lot of American dead for nothing whatsoever."
Well, if we pull out of Iraq and then get sick of Afghanistan and leave, yes, those dead will be in vain. The truth is often very painful sometimes, but many people don't really care.
"Or that we were chest thumping?"
I'm sorry, maybe I should have stated patting ourselves on the back. That would have been more accurate, I think.
"Seems you just want to toss crap until something sticks. Kind of confirms what Bellavia was writing."
No, I want us to win this war. The consequences of losing are way too grave to be flippant. But I don't want a hollow victory either (you know, the kind that looks greatat the time)that will destroy us in the long term.
"That wouldn't be the military fault though, it would be the fault of the people who helped elect a thoroughly incompetent C and C."
Not necessarily. There are many in the officer corps, a la Casey, who believe in this garbage.
"Regardless, If we leave Iraq with a functional quasi-democracy the that's about all we can do and that is all we set out to do."
Assuming that it remains a democracy. And will that "democracy" turn on us?
"Yes, it could all unravel but at some point you have to trust the generals who are saying it wont."
Yeah, I keep hearing a lot of stuff from Mullen, but there are also times when you have to wonder how much of this is total bullshit? How many generals in Iraq before Petraeus said things are awesome and then we find out that it's not really true? Take Marjah, for example. I've heard many different accounts of what is happening. Which one is true? Are we fighting to defeat al qaeda or are we fighting to achieve a sort of kumbaya with Afghanis? That's an important distinction. I personally wouldn't want to die for the latter. But then I have no intentions of dying for a liberal, period.
"There will still be 50,000 troops in Iraq and they are there indefinitely."
Yeah, right. Something about that bridge in Brooklyn in a previous post...


Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 08:09 PM (d8AS2)

87 Sorry if you were inconvenienced by other people fighting for the country and constitution.
I did just that and could have been sent there, and I would have gone. You don't seem to respect MY service.

Posted by: anon at February 22, 2010 08:12 PM (j/wD+)

88 80Uh, you're the one who made the statement that we haven't been
attacked. Therefore we "won."
What I wrote was: "Have you seen any planes full of people being flown into buildings
full of people recently? No? Because the shit herd has been busy
getting martyred culled in Iraq and Afghanistan."

That wasn't the sole objective but a vital one. What you wrote was: "OMG, since it hasn't happened in a whole 9 years, then it'll never happen again will it???"
Which is a non sequeter. That the shits who want to wage war on humanity because of the child humping prophet have been getting themselves killed in their own back yard instead of ours doesn't mean that we will "never" be attacked again, it means that the chances are lessened. Point missed.

I merely argued that we are winning
thus far, which is hardly the same as "won."

You argue for the sake of arguing.
Unfortunately, there are
a lotof people in this country who do, in fact, think that we have
simply won, period.
And some who will spout off forever without giving credit where credit is due.

If you cannot handle
the facts, then perhaps you shouldn't argue.

Here's a fact: shuddup.
"Yeah, I've seen so much being done to correct that problem. "
IS THAT THE FAULT OF THE SOLDIERS SAILORS MARINES AND AIRMEN who this article was about? Tell it to the elected representatives in Washington.
"We have some special forces there, yes. Not nearly enough."
So you are a general now. Why don't you sign up and join the Delta forces and lend a hand.".But that's just me"
An attention whore blowhard?"Oh, I do show gratitude. "
So far, no. It's been all about you."If it were up to me,"
It never will be."Nope, I think I'll stay here."
Great, just what we need, another half witted clown politicizing the war and rationalizing why he can't utter a word of thanks.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 08:24 PM (9fjyr)

89 Hidden Imam,
BTW, my initial post was regarding Bellavia's comment of "won the war." Hence my original post. I never badmouthed those who served in any of my posts. Feel free to go back and check. You may want to consider that next time you feel the need to get all self-righteous.

Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 08:24 PM (d8AS2)

90 Drew,
I not only went to David's site and read the article, I also left a few comments. It's an excellent essay.
I've always said the coverage of the Iraq/Afghanistan war in the MSM is in direct proportion to the level of success. If the New York Times clams up, you know we're kicking muslim terrorist ass. They haven't had much to say for about the last three years except for the occasional anti-military spew from Krugman or Friedman. That speaks volumes.

Posted by: SFC MAC at February 22, 2010 08:28 PM (/9h7Q)

91 76
If the Bush administration had said "we need to invade Iraq to remove Sadam and to establish a democracy there" no one would have supported that. Yet now we are being told that was worth American lives. I disagree.
Since we ARE there and lives have already been lost I certainly hope something positive comes out of it, but it was a mistake.
BTW - I'm a Navy vet, served 4 years.
Posted by: anon at February 22, 2010 07:15 PM (j/wD+)
I'm a retired Army SFC, and served in Iraq twice. It was no mistake. Saddam Hussein had WMDs and terrorist conections. He was as much of a threat as any other Islamic despot in the Middle East.
For anyone who thinks he had no WMDs, READ:
http:// sfcmac.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/no-lies-about-iraq/

Posted by: SFC MAC at February 22, 2010 08:34 PM (/9h7Q)

92 Wow. Winning does not mean "won (which is past tense). Jesus, how many times do I have to repeat this?

Well, thanks for clogging up the forum with your "its all about me" posts.
"So instead of coming up with a semi-intelligent answer, you insult."

You are a dickhead and that's over intellectualizing the situation.
Isn't a civilian population that knows nothing of war, not to mention idiot politicians kinda link with an "emboldened Iran?"

So we should give up our republic/constitution and make you supreme leader because you know best.
Yeah, I'd say they'll attack again. They've shown no signs of letup so
far.
So better to do nothing..
We're not. We just elected a jackass (literally and figuratively)

No, not literally. Idiot. So get to work mitigating the damage.

Assuming that it remains a democracy. And will that "democracy" turn on us?
Hey, you are a waste of time.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 08:37 PM (9fjyr)

93
WMDs was the only objective stated before the war. After none were found the other "objectives" surfaced.
No. It. Wasn't.

We would have served them better if we had not sent them to die to obtain (in your words) "a quasi-democracy"
Perhaps, but they were sent by the elected representatives of the people of the USA. They were given a difficult mission and they have been largely successful at it.

Funny how a guy that is strident about "supporting the troops" just insulted all of the ones in the Air Force.
By tarring them with you? You are correct. My apologies to the Air Force. I should have put you in code pink.

I'll assume you didn't even serve at all.
Wrong again.
I did just that and could have been sent there,
Sp why the issue with gratitude?
You don't seem to respect MY service.
No, I respect your alleged service, I just think you are an asshole.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 08:46 PM (9fjyr)

94 "What I wrote was: "Have you seen any planes full of people being flown into buildings full of people recently? No? Because the shit herd has been busy getting martyred culled in Iraq and Afghanistan."
That wasn't the sole objective but a vital one."
No, your statement implied that since it hasn't happened since 2001, then it'll never happen again. You were being self-congradulatory. It's not my fault that your statements are not clear and concise.
"Which is a non sequeter. That the shits who want to wage war on humanity because of the child humping prophet have been getting themselves killed in their own back yard instead of ours doesn't mean that we will "never" be attacked again, it means that the chances are lessened. Point missed."
But they don't needreally great chances to succeed, do they? They just have to wear us down enoughto the point where we say "forget this, bring the troops home." They only need one shot. They get a nuke here in the US and set itoff, you can forget about this country being the one you grew up in. Count on that. That's what we should be focusing on. Those are the stakes.If people can't understand that, then they should get out of the game.
"You argue for the sake of arguing."
Really? All of those points I made were totally meaningless? If you think that's true, then we're in worse shape than I thought. But keep living in your fantasyworld.
"Unfortunately, there are a lotof people in this country who do, in fact, think that we have simply won, period."
And they are wrong, for the reasons I explained above.
"And some who will spout off forever without giving credit where credit is due."
Ok,I'll give a hollow shout out to the troops. Feel better? I'm sure they really love that. It's meaningless to them. Here's aradical thought:perhaps we should truly sacrifice for the soldiers, like they did in WWII. You know, rationing, victory gardens, a real full-time war effort, not this pretend bullshit we have now. What I've seen so far is a bunch of fat, happy dipshitssimply saying, "gee thanks," without having to sacrifice one iota.
"Here's a fact: shuddup."
Wow, that pushed your argument forward greatly. Like I said, you seem to be more able to insult than actually answer.
"IS THAT THE FAULT OF THE SOLDIERS SAILORS MARINES AND AIRMEN who this article was about? Tell it to the elected representatives in Washington."
I don't really recall saying that it was their fault, but ok. Delusion is a good thing, I guess. Please go back and let me know where I mentioned this."
"So you are a general now. Why don't you sign up and join the Delta forces and lend a hand."
Maybe I should be. My guess is that my talents would be wasted. If I were a general, rest assured we'd have much less casualties than we have had so far. And they would have the added bonus of actually counting for something.
"An attention whore blowhard?"
Nope. I'm about as low-key as you can get, actually.
"So far, no. It's been all about you."
Has it? I've pointed out why we have not won yet. How is that "all about me?"
"It never will be."
More's the pity.
"Great, just what we need, another half witted clown politicizing the war and rationalizing why he can't utter a word of thanks."
Oh no, more insults. It hurts!!! I can utter thanks, but I think my thanks would be moreappropriate if we can actually conceive of a coherent strategy that actually wins this wardecisively withoutputting our troops in unnecessary danger. Limiting airstrikes because it might make someone mad does not make much sense to me, especially when soldiers are killed because of it. Now you answer me this: would you rather people just give hollow thanks and get troops killed because omg, we might actually have to kill some of the enemy, or would you prefer that we, as a country actually grow up, stop acting fucking emo and let the troops do their jobs without having to look over their shoulders every three seconds to make sure that the civilian population doesn't screw them over...again (and yes, that would mean that we'd actually have to use most of the weapons we possess)? I'm pretty sure I knowwhat the soldiers would choose. And that would be much more of a thank you than anything else I might do.



Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 08:54 PM (d8AS2)

95 "Well, thanks for clogging up the forum with your "its all about me" posts."
No, I said that because I'm beginning to understand that you are truly that dense.
"You are a dickhead and that's over intellectualizing the situation."
Over-intellectualizing? I haven't seen anything intellectual at all coming from you, other than a bunch of insults.
"So we should give up our republic/constitution and make you supreme leader because you know best."
Yeah, you seem to be doing the constitution pretty proud with some of the brow-beating you've done so far, eh, el presidente?
"So better to do nothing.. "
Yeah, it's obvious you haven't read anything I've written.
"No, not literally. Idiot. So get to work mitigating the damage."
Sorry, I guess my attempt at wittiness when right past you. Jackass was meant as a symbol of the Democratic Party as well as the fact that the guy is truly a jackass. I vote Republican in New York State. What else would you like me to do? Back at you with the "idiot" thing.
"Hey, you are a waste of time."
I know that the stuff I've written has gone largely over your head, but that's not really my fault. Get out, read some more, and get back to me.


Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 09:12 PM (d8AS2)

96 Drew, I am so glad--and furious--someone finally posted this. good job per usual

Posted by: Cromwell at February 22, 2010 09:25 PM (Vc/xe)

97 To Hidden Imam,
First of all I did indeed serve in the Navy, asshole or not, I am a vet.
I have absolutely no issue with giving the troops gratitude. They fully deserve it, and I never said otherwise. This thread shifted gears and started to talk about the success of the mission and the motives for going. I still think it was a mistake, sorry SFC MAC.

Posted by: anon at February 22, 2010 09:36 PM (j/wD+)

98 the comments on this thread are are great as the post.
+++

Posted by: les grossman at February 22, 2010 09:53 PM (Vc/xe)

99 104:
Ditto

Posted by: anon at February 22, 2010 10:21 PM (j/wD+)

100 Charles Martel,
Bingo.
I'll add a little bonus that al qaeda fighters are taught ad nauseum. "I will be patient until I out-patient patience." Contrast that withthe "I want it and I want it yesterday!" mentality of many in this country and one can see that this waris much more problematic than the flippant rah-rah-ers understand.
As far as I'm concerned, this war won't end until the American flag is planted on top ofmyriads ofenemy bodies around and on top of the rubble of thekaaba in Mecca. Yeah, it's supposed to be a sobering thought.

Posted by: Mat at February 22, 2010 11:01 PM (d8AS2)

101 "...if they succeed, it will be of immeasurable benefit to us."



If they succeed, it will be of immeasurable benefit to the whole world.



If the Nobel Peace prize meant anything at all, it would be presented
the the men and women who fought and died to free the Iraqi people from
a murderous tyrant and give them the chance at liberty, something that
region of the world has never known.

Posted by: Lee at February 22, 2010 11:24 PM (zF8wD)

102 OK, back. Lets be done with this:
98
"No, your statement implied that since it hasn't happened since 2001,
then it'll never happen again. You were being self-congradulatory.
It's not my fault that your statements are not clear and concise."

The words I write have meaning. If you can show me where I stated that "it'll never happen again." please do so, if not STFU.

"But they don't needreally great chances to succeed, do they? "

Therefore we shouldn't engage the enemy in the geographical heartland of the middle east. Oh wait, no. The idea is to lesson the chances of another attack. You can never eliminate it.
"If people can't understand that, then they should get out of the game. "

"Game" huh.

"Really? All of those points I made were totally meaningless? "

In the context of the article yes. Absolutely. Making them over and over makes you look like a douche bag who wants everything straightened out by someone else before you will even consider that what they have done with what they were given is truly an awesome accomplishment and that we owe them a debt of gratitude that can never be paid.

"Ok,I'll give a hollow shout out to the troops. Feel better? "

Fuck off, asshole. Want it done better? Get off your ass and go do it you ungrateful piece of shit.

"It's meaningless to them."

You don't speak for our military.

"What I've seen so far is a bunch of fat, happy dipshitssimply saying, "gee thanks,""

Which is more then you have been able to manage.

"Maybe I should be. My guess is that my talents would be wasted."

And yet I have answered this turd..
" I've pointed out why we have not won yet"

Not quite all that you have done.

"I think my thanks would be moreappropriate if we can actually conceive
of a coherent strategy that actually wins this wardecisively.... "

So that's the price of your gratitude. Somehow I don't think you are going to be made head of CENTCOM so you can provide a good word to the people who risk their lives to protect you while you play stratego.

Now you answer me this:

I think it is idiotic to nuke Iraq. We are Americans, not Nazis.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 22, 2010 11:50 PM (9fjyr)

103 Excellent post. And thank you David Bellavia, thank you very much for your service in Iraq and for what you're doing now.
Having served in Vietnam I have to say that I see the terrible irony of what you've seen; those who didn't serve (other than those who were physically unable to serve,I mean) seem to know an awful lot about war, don't they? And the contempt you may hold for them could never reach MY generation(s) of Vietnam Vets, because we've held that contempt for so long. Those who didn't serve, for whatever reason, but who in fact supported the troops there then AND NOW, do however deserve our respect.
Those who want to criticize us, especially an ex-marine congressman who recently passed away would do well if history treats them as anything other than the scumbags they were and are.

Posted by: realwest at February 23, 2010 12:15 AM (NaJR0)

104 100
OK, Mat, between you and a dog with explosive diarrhea I have had my fill of shit for one evening.
I know that the stuff I've written has gone largely over your head,
but that's not really my fault. Get out, read some more, and get back
to me.You are an ignorant spoiled child, coming up with excuses for not being grateful to the men and women who have enabled you to be a safe and free ignorant spoiled child.

Lets Recap. Shall we? We have here an article from someone who served in Iraq. You might have skimmed the title before you launched in with all the reasons Iraq is going to go to shit but the author; David Bellavia wrote in part:
"The ones that hold my contempt are those who, even today, know of the
sacrifice made, the incredible progress gained and still will not
acknowledge what was won on the ground in Iraq. They cheapen the
sacrifice of how it was earned. "

and:
"I came home expecting to find the sacrifice of these
brave patriots revered at every turn by those who overwhelmingly sent
us to war from Washington. Iím still looking."
And what has been your reaction to all those multi-syllable words from that guy was good enough to go out and kill for you?
"We haven't "won" anything yet... Nothing has been won yet... get your chest all puffed out and hoot and hollar about how awesome we are doing... far as I'm concerned we have a lot of American dead for nothing whatsoever. Same goes for Afghanistan... I'm well aware of the sacrifices made. If it were up to me this war would have been over by now... whether those sacrifices will be in vain or not... Ok, Ill give a hollow shout out to the troops. Feel Better? I merely pointed out the discrepancies....
Then you proceeded to go on and on with all the qualifications and prerequisites for calling the Iraq war a victory and the what would make the sacrifices of our Americans not in vain and presumably make you a little appreciative of the fact that they were killed to keep your ass safe:... If Iran isn't "humbled" it's not a victory, If Iran is still a regional threat it is not a victory, if Iraq looses ground it is not a victory, If it doesn't lose ground but eventually decides it doesn't like us, it's not a victory, if Pakistan isn't straightened out it's not a victory...
In short, if the entire fucking Middle East isn't being run like Switzerland then you can't the "revere the sacrifice of these
brave patriots". The best you can come up with is "a hollow shout out to the troops.... Feel Better? "
Again, David Bellavia, an authentic hero who put his life on the line for this country and watched his friends killed wrote: "I came home expecting to find the sacrifice of these
brave patriots revered at every turn... Iím still looking."
And your contribution? Unless it is all done up in a big bow the best you can come up with is a "hollow shout out to the troops".

Because you can only show gratitude if your list of 'gratitude prerequisites' are checked off (by someone else of course) that pretty much makes you the embodiment of a spoiled fucking brat.

You have pretty much validated the most indicting that he had to write. I suspect that you are too thick to be ashamed of yourself but you are an embarrassment. I only hope that he or anyone else who is looking for the sacrifice of these brave patriots to be revered understands that there are plenty of us who genuinely do.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 23, 2010 01:13 AM (9fjyr)

105 102
To Hidden Imam,
First of all I did indeed serve in the Navy, asshole or not, I am a vet.Fair enough, I happen to be both.

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 23, 2010 01:17 AM (9fjyr)

106 Hidden Imam,
"OK, back. Lets be done with this:"
As far as I'm concerned, this was done a long time ago. You just kept it going. Needlessly at that.
"The words I write have meaning. If you can show me where I stated that "it'll never happen again." please do so, if not STFU."
Ah, the insults. Are they the only things thatshow meaning for you? It seems that way. You comment essentially said that since we haven't been attacked since 2001, we're all good. I simply disagree with that. But the implicationwas that since it hasn't happened yet, it's not likely to happen, to which I say "horseshit."Oops, I said a swear word. My bad...
"Fuck off, asshole. Want it done better? Get off your ass and go do it you ungrateful piece of shit."
(yawn) These constant attempts at insulting me are getting quite tiresome. Obviously you missed my sarcasm.Go back and read the rest of my statement. I don't wish to"get off my ass" because I really don't feel like throwing my life away for the Messiah.He's getting good troops killed through this kumbaya garbage.
"You don't speak for our military."
Actually, I've read and talked to a number of soldiers who would agree with me on what I said. Actions do speak louderthan words. I simply think a proper thank you should involve getting out the the soldiers hair and let them win this war without stupid interference.
"Which is more then you have been able to manage."
See above comment concerning empty words...
"And yet I have answered this turd."
Actually, short of insulting me you have answered very little to nothing concerning my points, which is pretty much par for the course.
"So that's the price of your gratitude. Somehow I don't think you are going to be made head of CENTCOM so you can provide a good word to the people who risk their lives to protect you while you play stratego."
Is it really all that much to ask that we actually try to win this war by breaking the enemy's will and not catering to whether they like us or not? Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about what Afghan villagers think of us. As for thecontinuing insults,it's somewhat amusing. At least I got some pretty good phrases to use next time I'm pissed about something.
"I think it is idiotic to nuke Iraq. We are Americans, not Nazis."
Who said anything aboutnuking? Fightwar totally or not at all. There is no in between because war has no rules.Our enemies understand this very well. It looks like we'll have to re-learn it the hard way.

Posted by: Mat at February 23, 2010 02:41 AM (K7PKA)

107 Thank you. (directed at all who served)

Posted by: Evil Pundit at February 23, 2010 03:06 AM (bka/B)

108 "OK, Mat, between you and a dog with explosive diarrhea I have had my fill of shit for one evening."
Ooo, I like that. Definitely filing that away for future use. Thanks.
"You are an ignorant spoiled child, coming up with excuses for not being grateful to the men and women who have enabled you to be a safe and free ignorant spoiled child."
Pray tell where I said that I was ungrateful to the soldiers? I simply made a point about hollow words vs. action. I hardly think that wasor is out of line. If you're going to insult me, at least have the decency of being somewhat entertaining. No need to make things up.
"Lets Recap. Shall we? We have here an article from someone who served in Iraq. You might have skimmed the title before you launched in with all the reasons Iraq is going to go to shit but the author..."
It is unfortunate. Now think of how worse it'll be if and when Iraq does, in fact, go to shit and those lives were for nothing. Personally, I have a feeling that there is going to be one hell of a sense of betrayal among the soldiers when that happens. But that's how this country treats its troops, unfortunately. If this country truly cared about its soldiers, they wouldn't have voted full blown Democrat in '08. I do give a shit about the troops. But what I've grown tired of in the past 9 years is how so many people pay lip service to the troops, but don't do anything substantial. Yeah, some do, here and there, but not enough. If we cared, we wouldn't be sending our soldiers into conflicts with utterly ridiculous rules of engagement which serve nothing but to kill good soldiers for no reason. So spare me your puffed up chest outrage you've shown so far. That's why I wouldn't join the military at this point (and I'm 36, so it's pretty moot anyway). Why fight for a country that largely doesn't give a shit what happens?
Lookat the news. You really think people care about the war? Hell no, I mean, Jersey Shore's on, man. The fucking basketball game is on, can't miss that. Oh wait, Grey's Anatomy is on, gotta watch that. Holy Christ, I missed the first five minutes ofOprah! It's way too important to miss! Yeah, the whole "I support the troops" claptrap wears pretty thin if it's thrown out there long enough. How's 'dem apples?
"Then you proceeded to go on and on with all the qualifications and prerequisites for calling the Iraq war a victory and the what would make the sacrifices of our Americans not in vain and presumably make you a little appreciative of the fact that they were killed to keep your ass safe:... If Iran isn't "humbled" it's not a victory, If Iran is still a regional threat it is not a victory, if Iraq looses ground it is not a victory, If it doesn't lose ground but eventually decides it doesn't like us, it's not a victory, if Pakistan isn't straightened out it's not a victory..."
Hmmm...what part of war do you comprehend? Seriously, for a vet you seem to have a very limited grasp of what victory actually entails. If you want to talk about the Nazis,chew on this. We won that war because it was obvious that we were victorious. German armies were crushed in the field, it's territory occupied. There was no question. Fast forward to today. We've yet to actually crush our enemies in the field and we're jumping back and forth across territorieswithout actually holding onto the ground. Now, McChrystal's strategy seems to be moving in that direction. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. I get the feeling that it won't becauseObamawill not allow them to win a decisive victory. We'llstart pulling out our surge troops in July 2011. We've already decided when we're going to leave. How intelligent is that. Imagine FDR tellingEisenhower "you know, I'll give you the troops to launch D-Day, but if you don't take Germany by the end of '44, we're gonna evacuate back to Britain." Laughingyet? Well, that's essentially what we're telling our enemies. I don't think it takes a military genius to understand the absurdity of that strategy.
So no, we won't have victory until someone is totally defeated. We can't fight this war forever. We don't have the vitality or the stomach (much less the attention span) for that kind of war. But our enemies do. "I will be patient until I outpatient patience." Al qaeda lives by that. Was that really so difficult to comprehend?
"Because you can only show gratitude if your list of 'gratitude prerequisites' are checked off (by someone else of course) that pretty much makes you the embodiment of a spoiled fucking brat."
It isn't so much gratitude prerequisites as victory prerequisites. As I said in a previous comment, I didn't have a problem with Bellavia's idea of gratitude, but I did have a problem with the fact that is being declared a victory at this point in time. And for that, I get crucified. Oh well, so much for free speech.
"You have pretty much validated the most indicting that he had to write. I suspect that you are too thick to be ashamed of yourself but you are an embarrassment. I only hope that he or anyone else who is looking for the sacrifice of these brave patriots to be revered understands that there are plenty of us who genuinely do."
I hardly consider myself an embarrassment. I merely look at things in a very honest fashion.This country loves it's sugar coating on everything. Tell you what, let's revisit this in 10-20 years and I'm sure much of what I have written will be validated. I give thattime frame because it'll be at least thatamount of time beforewe truly know what we've won...or what we've lost.

Posted by: Mat at February 23, 2010 03:11 AM (K7PKA)

109 As I've said there as well: Bush saved 750,000 Iraqi lives MINIMUM.

I can understand the state-run media ignoring it, but at least Fox should be doing some original research into the numbers!

http://alturl.com/9goh

Posted by: Scott at February 23, 2010 03:29 AM (QNoEt)

110 And I'm not even an American!

Posted by: Scott at February 23, 2010 03:37 AM (PXGSj)

111 Name changing is part of President Obama's odd psychosis. Desperate for self identity, Barry Obama/Barry Saetoro/Barack Obama/Barack Hussein Obama doesn't quite know who he is. He had no relationship with his father, so he has to "dream" about what his father would say. Similarly, as a community organizer/student-of-no-accomplishment, he has no idea about the military, so he has to dream up crackpot labels.

Operation New Dawn is another manifestation of his psychosis. Not comfortable with your family? Just change your name.

Not comfortable with a military operation? Just change the name.

Pathetic.

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at February 23, 2010 08:07 AM (XVmbw)

112 We "won" in Iraq about as much as the Soviets won in Afghanistan. It's an unstable, terrorist-filled dump and the government there (a) won't last and (b) might commit genocide in the meantime. Plus, there are daily terrorist bombings. If this is success, we should have packed up our bags shortly after we confirmed the absence of WMDs.

Posted by: Roach at February 23, 2010 10:06 AM (tV40C)

113 You mean the WMD we found? The ones the UN identified and tagged long before the war even started?


Perhaps what you mean is "we didn't find as many as we expected" because we did find some.


But then, you cannot admit success because it demolishes the carefully constructed lie you've been living with for almost ten years now, and the truth is too frightening and devastating for your worldview.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at February 23, 2010 10:20 AM (PQY7w)

114 RE 112, 114

As far as I'm concerned, this was done a long time ago. You just kept it going. Needlessly at that.

I'm shocked that you can be such a stupid cocksucker and so arrogant at the same time. It's like watching Bill Maher. Seriously.
"Ah, the insults. Are they the only things thatshow meaning for you? "

They have meaning, just like the other words that don't seem to get.

"You comment essentially said that since we haven't been attacked since 2001, we're all good"
No, it didn't idiot.

These constant attempts at insulting me are getting quite tiresome.

Fuck off idiot.

"Obviously you missed my sarcasm"

Or more obvious, you are grasping for some kind of point here and failing badly. More precicely, you are grasping for some kind of excuse to think that you are not beholden to these people and you are dead wrong.

I don't wish to"get off my ass" because I really don't feel like throwing my life away for the Messiah

That's just another excuse for not doing something you would rather have someone else do. Do you think this country is your mommy? The country needs defending even if you don't like the civilian leadership. I didn't like Clinton.

Actually, I've read and talked to a number of soldiers who would agree with me on what I said.

Asking them if they want to super-size their extra value meal doesn't really count. Regardless, you are a blowhard punk and no, you don't speak for anyone other than yourself.

"See above comment concerning empty words..."

There's the thing, if you had a brain in your head your gratitude for these people would not be "empty". Instead you are a self-centered TV baby who doesn't quite get that there are people who are pulling your load, doing your killing and dieing and you don't even have the class to say "thanks".

Actually, short of insulting me...

Poor bitch.

"Is it really all that much to ask that we actually try to win this war
by breaking the enemy's will and not catering to whether they like us
or not? "

So that's the condition of your gratitude for our troops, "breaking the enemies will."
" As for thecontinuing insults,it's somewhat amusing. "

Glad you are amused, shithead.
"Fightwar totally or not at all. There is no in between because war has no rules. "

So "totally" would mean that we would be using all the weapons in our arsinel to kill the enemy regardless of these "Afghan villagers" you don't "give a rat's ass about"... Launch a few ICBM's over and call it a day. And you wonder why you are not in charge of centcom?

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 23, 2010 05:07 PM (9fjyr)

115 Re 114

Pray tell where I said that I was ungrateful to the soldiers?

Do you even read what you write? Hollow words of praise and all that? You don't do you? The objective for you is just to spew mentally masturbatory words all over someone else's blog...

I simply made a point about hollow words vs. action.

Seeing as you are good for neither...
"If you're going to insult me, at least have the decency of being somewhat entertaining. "

Gee, If I am "entertaining" and you are a tedious cum guzzler who is getting the better of the deal in this interaction?

Now think of how worse it'll be if and when Iraq does, in fact, go to shit and those lives were for nothing.

We at gratitude yet?

But that's how this country treats its troops, unfortunately.

And you know the first thing about this how?

". I do give a shit about the troops."

OUTSTANDING! WE HAVE HAD A WORD OF GRATITUDE! MAT, DOES "GIVE A SHIT" ABOUT THE TROOPS! Can you spare it?
Man, don't embarrass yourself with your sentimentality! A whole shit for our troops! you narcissistic moron.
"But what I've grown tired of in the past 9 years is how so many people
pay lip service to the troops, but don't do anything substantial.

And you have done what?

"So spare me your puffed up chest outrage you've shown so far"

Eat my shit.

" That's why I wouldn't join the military at this point"

Sure it's not because you are a childish pussy?
" You really think people care about the war? "

So therefore you needn't, right?

"Yeah, the whole "I support the troops" claptrap wears pretty thin if it's thrown out there long enough. How's 'dem apples?"
I can't get over what a fucking idiot you are.
Hmmm...what part of war do you comprehend?

Lecture about it from your parents couch. I have been in a couple of McWars you pompous idiot. What of anything do you comprehend? Classless arrogant clown.
" Seriously, for a vet you seem to have a very limited grasp of what victory actually entails."

Go show us how it's done you loudmouth pussy.
"If you want to talk about the Nazis,chew on this. We won that war because it was obvious that we were victorious. "

Gee, we could have lost the war if the German civilians didn't turn out to be our ally, or if the Russians weren't "humbled" or if the Chinese didn't take advantage of the vacuum left by the Japs or on and on and on... Better hold off judgment as to whether we won WW2 for another decade, moron.
" Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. "

Gratitude for the troops was the subject, fool. You don't have any because you are an ignorant cunt.

" And for that, I get crucified. Oh well, so much for free speech. "

You should insist that they do a better job of defending the constitution for you. You are being oppressed!
I hardly consider myself an embarrassment.

You don't have the sense to know that you are a fucking clown.

"I merely look at things in a very honest selfish and rationalizing fashion."

Fixed.
Tell you what, let's revisit this in 10-20 years and I'm sure much of what I have written will be validated
Hear that David! All you have to do is wait 20 years for this pompous little fuck to show a little gratitude. You best be able to write him out a receipt when he finally says "thanks" and means it.


Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 23, 2010 05:34 PM (9fjyr)

116 "I'm shocked that you can be such a stupid cocksucker and so arrogant at the same time. It's like watching Bill Maher. Seriously."
Oh please. Bill Mahar is a shithead leftist. I'm far more intelligent than that. It's not arrogance so much as confidence in my points.
"They have meaning, just like the other words that don't seem to get.No, it didn't idiot. Fuck off idiot."
Wow, thisseems to be the only argument you can make. You can't refute basic intelligent pointsso you resort to angry insults. It shows much about your character. Or the lack thereof.
"Or more obvious, you are grasping for some kind of point here and failing badly. More precicely, you are grasping for some kind of excuse to think that you are not beholden to these people and you are dead wrong."
No, I made my point succinctly. As I've said several times before, it's not my fault if you can't grasp basic strategy. Oh, so now I'm "beholden" to them? You know, it's kinda strange that the Founding Fathers did not have the same superhero worship of soldiers like today. In fact, they feared an extremely strong military. Couldhave hadto do with usurping a democracy or something (as in you really think Obama wouldn't turn the military on us conservatives if he had the chance?).There's a difference between respecting the soldiers and turning them into some sort of deities. You know, sometimes the soldiers could be wrong about what they're doing. Did that enter your head?
"That's just another excuse for not doing something you would rather have someone else do. Do you think this country is your mommy? The country needs defending even if you don't like the civilian leadership. I didn't like Clinton."
Nope, I don't. I would much rather have a small government, thanks. Big Brother doesn't really appeal to me. Ifit did, I'd go to North Korea. Last time I checked, the military was volunteer. You made your choice, I made mine. Is that not what this country is all about? The country needs defending yes, but not stupidly defended.In a perfect world,a PCPentagon andlo-life politicians wouldn't be running a war. But they do andthe consequences will be terrible. Besides, I'm not the sort to take idiotic orders from above(note the point I made about rules of engagement). Most likely I would have been court-martialed by now if I ended up in the military as I planned in 2001. But I didn't and that's that.
"Asking them if they want to super-size their extra value meal doesn't really count. Regardless, you are a blowhard punk and no, you don't speak for anyone other than yourself."
(chuckling) If you say so. So now you're the official spokesman for the entire US military? And who's the arrogant one again? Perhaps you should look in the mirror...
"There's the thing, if you had a brain in your head your gratitude for these people would not be "empty". Instead you are a self-centered TV baby who doesn't quite get that there are people who are pulling your load, doing your killing and dieing and you don't even have the class to say "thanks"."
I never said my gratitude was empty. But it is for a lot of people. To simply say "thanks" and then go about their business like nothing happened is absurd. The worst thing we did in 2001 was to avoid involving our citizenry into the war. No one's made any real sacrifice. Compare that to what the Greatest Generation had to do on the home front. No comparison whatsoever. BTW, that's dying, not dieing.
"Poor bitch."
(yawn) another insult...
"So that's the condition of your gratitude for our troops, "breaking the enemies will."
Not a condition. Should be a prerequisite for any war though.
"Glad you are amused, shithead."
Thanks!
"So "totally" would mean that we would be using all the weapons in our arsinel to kill the enemy regardless of these "Afghan villagers" you don't "give a rat's ass about"
You got it.
... Launch a few ICBM's over and call it a day. And you wonder why you are not in charge of centcom? "
Nah, nothing that drastic. Just HIMARS, FAE's, Rockeyes, Cluster munitions, Paladins, M1A1s. You know, the works.
I'd destroy an entire village before I'd let one American soldier die because our people are simply worth more. End of story. If that's what it took time and again, I'd do so. No regrets. If we did that from the get-go, we wouldn't be bogged down on anything. So we'll mess around for a few years, wait for these jackholes to get a nuke and then watch one of our cities go up in flames because we were too timid to fight a war the way it ought to be fought. Like I said, most Americans have no conception whatsoever of what war actually entails. We'll learn it one way or another eventually.

Posted by: Mat at February 24, 2010 02:48 AM (K7PKA)

117 "Do you even read what you write? Hollow words of praise and all that? You don't do you? The objective for you is just to spew mentally masturbatory words all over someone else's blog..."
I originally was going to do the usual tit-for-tat. However, this is getting excessively boring to me and quite pointless (and not because I think I'm wrong...I'm not). We obviously do not see eye-to-eye and it'll have to remain that way. The original point was refuting Mr. Bellavia's statement about how we won. I argue that we have not won anything yet and I will stand by that. My piece had nothing to do with the gratitude even though I understand that was a major point of the article. Unfortunately, you decided to launch off the deep end with dopey attacks on my character. You know nothing of what I do and I'm not the sort to go trumpeting about how much I support them. Being a loud-mouth braggart is not my style. I find that sort ofrah-rahingto be empty and counterproductive. If you feel otherwise, well, it's still a free country. Even for a little while longer.You may be an adult and you may have served, which I respect. But your arguing skills are abysmal. If Mr.Bellavia wishes to engage in a conversation with me, I would be more thanhappy to do so.
I personally do not believe that we are going to win this war. Yes, we will fight it for a while, butwe don't have enough patienceor thewill to do so. The soldiers may fight on, but eventually, the civilian population will tire of this and they will demand (like theyalways do) that we pull out and bring the troops home. I truly hope that I am wrong about this. The consequences of such adecision will be utterly disastrous for us, but since we have a collective attention span of agnat, it will happen (and there's nothing that I can do to personally alter this). If you wish toinsult me, fireaway.It doesn't really bother me. I'll continue to watch events unfold accordingly. Just remember what you read here today for future reference.

Posted by: Mat at February 24, 2010 03:37 AM (K7PKA)

118 Re 123
I'm far more intelligent than that.

Idiot. Pointing out that you cannot express gratitude to the Armed forces, which is EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE SAID, until the whole middle east is wrapped up in a big bow is profoundly stupid and selfish.

Wow, thisseems to be the only argument you can make. You can't refute basic intelligent pointsso you resort to angry insults.

I have refuted every last bit of your effluence, consider the angry insults a bonus.

"It shows much about your character. Or the lack thereof."
You sit back on your fat ass and refuse to even acknowledge what they have done and you have the audacity to challenge someone else's character?

"Oh, so now I'm "beholden" to them [the US armed forces]? "

ABSOLUTELY. YOU ARE JUST TOO GODDAMN IGNORANT TO REALIZE IT.
"You know, it's kinda strange that the Founding Fathers did not have the same superhero worship of soldiers like today. "

My god you are an ignorant cunt. There are people who have been killed to keep you fat dumb and happy and you will grasp at anything to preserve your sense of entitlement.

"There's a difference between respecting the soldiers and turning them
into some sort of deities. "
So you can only feel gratitude to deities? Ignorant POS?
"You know, sometimes the soldiers could be
wrong about what they're doing. Did that enter your head?"

So you can't honor their sacrifice because you opposed the mission you sent them out on...
" Last time I checked, the military was volunteer. You made your choice, I made mine. "

So we are suckers for serving the country and we haven't done it right enough for the likes of you. Too bad you selfish piece of shit.

The country needs defending yes, but not stupidly defended.

You are just about the most ignorant shit I have encountered in ages, you are not the arbiter what is smart and what is "stupid". Either way, it has NOTHING to do with you showing some appreciation for what they have done in your name.
"In a perfect world..."

It isn't perfect, child. Most of us realize that by the time we can walk.

"Besides, I'm not the sort to take idiotic orders from above(note the
point I made about rules of engagement)."

No, get back to super-sizing your fries.

"Most likely I would have been
court-martialed by now if I ended up in the military as I planned in
2001. But I didn't and that's that. "

Well good of you to sit in judgment of people who wouldn't have fucked themselves up. Idiot.

"So now you're the official spokesman for the entire US military? "

Not by a long shot, I think it is almost universal to disdain a ungreatful spoiled child who pours scorn on the people who have enabled you to live free, safe and in a prosperous nation.

"I never said my gratitude was empty"

You have stated that you don't need to feel gratitude at all and provided a dozen rationalizations why that is so. Like I said, you are a piece of shit.

"To simply say "thanks" and then go about their business like nothing happened is absurd. "

Then do something more. "Thanks" is a start.
"Nah, nothing that drastic. Just HIMARS, FAE's, Rockeyes, Cluster munitions, Paladins, M1A1s. You know, the works."

Look at Mr. World Leader Pretend regurgitating acronyms and nomenclature he picked up on the web... Isn't that cute. Oh no, ICBM's are not a "half measure". Looks like you would be running a PC pentagon mr fantasy land.
"Like I said, most Americans have no conception whatsoever of what war actually entails."

Said the sanctimonious IDIOT who has no conception whatsoever of what war actually entails.



Posted by: Central Falls resident at February 24, 2010 05:54 PM (9fjyr)

119 sock off on 126

Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 24, 2010 05:55 PM (9fjyr)

120 Re 124this is
getting excessively boring to me and quite pointless (and not because I
think I'm wrong...I'm not).
In other words you are going to jamb your fingers in your ears and yell "LA LA LA" to preserve your sense of entitlement.

". My piece had nothing to do with the gratitude even though I understand that was a major point of the article. "
That was the point of the article, yes, and you have used it as a platform to state over and over, and I can quote you, why you don't need to feel any gratitude what so ever. (it's a volunteer military, you aren't beholden to these people and they are just following the orders of the PC pentagon, etc, etc, ) The closest you have come to a word of support, which was AGAIN, the POINT OF THE ARTICLE was "I do give a shit". Well done, you are a selfish, spoiled ignorant blowhard who as I have pointed out CONFIRMS what David Bellavia wrote. I shudder to think what this genuine hero, (no, I don't "worship" him as a "deity" but I have actually informed myself by reading what he had to go through to keep you a cloistered fucking child and I am profoundly grateful for what he and all the others have done for the country) would think about the country if he actually read your infantile take on what is being done for you and how it is basically other peoples job to keep you free enough to be an ignorant idiot.

" You know nothing of what I do"

From what you have written here it's safe to assume what you do is live a life of blissful ignorance and self gratification because you believe that everything would have to be perfect for you to do otherwise. I hope that on some level you understand that is an excuse. A rationalization.

"Being a loud-mouth braggart is not my style. "

Yes it is.

" your arguing skills are abysmal"

You have gotten far better then what you have written deserves. I absolutely, passionately loathe the mindset that you are speaking from.

If Mr.Bellavia wishes to engage in a conversation with me, I would be more thanhappy to do so.

If the dog wants to engage in a conversation with the tic, the tic would be happy to do so.

I personally do not believe that we are going to win this war.... Just remember what you read here today for future reference.

Thanks for your well wishes. I have read it over and over from people who are a lot more articulate and a lot smarter about cloaking their sense of entitlement and cluelessness. Saddam was unstoppable, the Republican guard was unstoppable, The mahadi army was unstoppable, no one has EVER won a counterinsurgency, the surge has failed, Sunni and Shiite will never cooperate, break up the country, on and on and on... You and the rest of the cock sucking defeatists have been proven wrong. You have been proven wrong by the efforts and sacrifices of people who this republic, which presumably you are a citizen of, sent there in the first place only to chip away at everything every imposable accomplishment they have achieved.
Whether or not you believe invading Iraq was a good idea is irrelevant to whether or not the people who went there served honorably or truly did amazing things with what little they were given.
The subject was gratitude, and you have only shown entitlement.


Posted by: Hidden Imam at February 24, 2010 06:24 PM (9fjyr)

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Posted by: tao at August 06, 2010 03:55 AM (OiJRj)






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