Minaret Ban Reaction: Swiss "Justice" Minister...The People Can Not Be Trusted

Laura blogged about this yesterday (and I share her mixed reaction to the news). Now the fallout is beginning.

So concerned is the government by the decision that Swiss Justice Minister Eveline Widmer Schlumpf, watching the results come in on Sunday afternoon, apparently told her advisers there ought to be some restrictions on what the general public can actually vote on.

This, for Switzerland, is political dynamite. The country's system of direct democracy is sacrosanct. The people are allowed to vote on any policy and to propose policy themselves, which is what they did on minarets.

Of course, this is precisely the attitude that gets you to this point. It's essentially considered racism, one of the worst of all modern crimes (perhaps second only to climate change 'denial'), to even bring up the idea that, "Hey, maybe there are certain things that don't fit with our country."

When the elites stifle debate and declare subjects of great importance beyond the pale of public discussion, the people will eventually make themselves heard and in ways that might be far more drastic than if they had a say earlier in the process.

Now with this wake up call, suddenly everyone wants more talk.

Elham Manea, founder of the Forum for a Progressive Islam - an organisation dedicated to Muslim integration in Switzerland - is disappointed not just with the outcome of the vote, but with the debate around it.

"The way the discussion was conducted was simply polemic," she said.

"We didn't ask the right questions, when we talked about integration problems for immigrants with an Islamic background.

"For example what is the size of political Islam, how big is the problem of forced marriage? Do we have that problem? Yes we do, we know we do, but which groups are practising it, and how do we deal with it?"

The problem for Ms Manea, and many Swiss Muslims, is that the ban on minarets does not really address any of these problems and may even isolate the community still further.

"My fear is that the younger generation will feel unwelcome," she said.

As for Muslims feeling unwelcome, for good or ill, I think that was the message behind the vote. It seems the Swiss don't want to have to deal with issues such as forced marriage or honor killings. Quite frankly, why should they? It's simply not part of Swiss heritage. Why should a country and society that has organized itself in a certain way suddenly have to adapt itself because a group of immigrants bring their culture and problems (from a Swiss perspective) with them?

As the Wall Street Journal points out, the actual act of banning minarets won't do much about these underlying issues. In fact, it "does too much and too little at once".

The vote betrays an undercurrent of fear among the Swiss—a fear that is not without cause. There is no denying the connection between radical imams and terrorist acts. Nor should anyone look away from the fact that too many European Muslims flatly reject the norms of their host countries, sometimes in ways that are criminal: honor killings, child brides and the like.

Yet banning minarets does nothing to address that fear. It merely makes it less likely that the average Swiss will be confronted by a visible symbol of Islam upon his skyline. Thus, even as a symbolic gesture, it seems to encourage a head-in-the-sand approach toward the 5% of Swiss who are Muslim. In much of Europe, this is the norm anyway, the result of political correctness and cowardice.

Immigration has been a great boon for many countries (namely the US) but it shouldn't be a national or cultural suicide pact. Unfortunately, once you move from the idea of a "melting pot" to a "multicultural mosaic" that's exactly what can happen.

Now that the people of Switzerland have the attention of their government and Muslim immigrants, will the reaction be to continue to sweep these tensions under the rug or make those groups confront some hard realities?

Given Europe's history on conflicts involving religion and ethnicity, I don't think this will end well for anyone.

Posted by: DrewM. at 12:16 PM



Comments

1 There go the Swiss Alps!!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 12:20 PM (BmbsW)

2 Immigration didn't work out so good for the Apache

Posted by: wHodat at November 30, 2009 12:23 PM (+sBB4)

3 "apparently told her advisers there ought to be some restrictions on what the general public can actually vote on."
Tell me about it.

Posted by: Gay Marriage Advocate at November 30, 2009 12:26 PM (SqAkN)

4 It would be fun if the Swiss people next vote to drive the Justice Minister out of office.

Posted by: Tushar at November 30, 2009 12:27 PM (DRC3Q)

5 Yet another case of the people disappointing the elites. If this were the EU they would find a way to strike down the referendum and tell the people that they were bad to even propose it.

Posted by: joncelli at November 30, 2009 12:27 PM (RD7QR)

6 It's simply not part of Swiss heritage. Why should a country and society that has organized itself in a certain way suddenly have to adapt itself because a group of immigrants bring their culture and problems (from a Swiss perspective) with them?

Drew, that's a little lame no? From a Swiss perpective? How about from the perspective of the modern world. It's i would think forced marriage and honor killings are something that we can all agree have no place in Western countries.

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 12:27 PM (wuv1c)

7 I need to see Ace with a copy of today's newspaper.

Posted by: Dr. Spank at November 30, 2009 12:28 PM (muUqs)

8 So concerned is the government by the decision that Swiss Justice
Minister Eveline Widmer Schlumpf, watching the results come in on
Sunday afternoon, apparently told her advisers there ought to be some
restrictions on what the general public can actually vote on.

One of the interesting aspects of European technocracy is that it generally leaves the appearance of representative government while all the real decisions are made by unaccountable bureaucrats. My guess is the rest of the Euro elites will now really try to clamp down on Switzerland as they don't want to see these notions of "we the people" spreading throughout the continent.


Posted by: 18-1 at November 30, 2009 12:28 PM (7BU4a)

9 One would think that the euros would have seen this coming when the muslim hordes were storming the gates for visas, I don't have any sympathy for them, you'll find that in the dictionary between shit and syphillis!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 12:29 PM (BmbsW)

10 "i would think forced marriage and honor killings are something that we can all agree have no place in Western countries."
Who are we to judge? Our nation voted against such "with us or against us" rhetoric in 2008!

Posted by: Left Wing Pussy at November 30, 2009 12:30 PM (SqAkN)

11 I would agree with Laura about being conflicted. But I would say this is chiefly a vote as a message and is on balance good. I have no doubt the Swiss Supreme Court will bounce it. If not then eventually the EU.

Posted by: Rocks at November 30, 2009 12:30 PM (Q1lie)

12 forced marriage and honor killings???

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at November 30, 2009 12:30 PM (Vu6sl)

13 It should be noted (and has been, quite often) that Muslim countries, not even the most repressive ones, routinely oppress non-Muslims to a much greater extent than a nationwide zoning law.

Posted by: AmishDude at November 30, 2009 12:30 PM (T0NGe)

14
Good for the Swiss, too bad they just put a big target on their backs for Christmas. Fortunately for them, they're all required to be armed, so hopefully they defend themselves.

Posted by: Dang Straights at November 30, 2009 12:30 PM (Haq+B)

15 Yet banning minarets does nothing to address that fear. It merely makes
it less likely that the average Swiss will be confronted by a visible
symbol of Islam upon his skyline. Thus, even as a symbolic gesture, it
seems to encourage a head-in-the-sand approach toward the 5% of Swiss
who are Muslim. In much of Europe, this is the norm anyway, the result
of political correctness and cowardice.

So what is the political situation in Switzerland? If 5% of the populace is Muslim, they've had a large amount of immigration. Is the populace generally in favor of large scale immigration? Has the government favored cultural assimilation? Or is this like the rest of Europe where they let almost anyone come in, settle in a banlieue, and collect government assistance?

Posted by: 18-1 at November 30, 2009 12:33 PM (7BU4a)

16 I think people are making too much of this.
The swiss banned minarets, they didn't fire up the gas showers and ovens.
Besides the Swiss do not have a recent history of violence towards any group or nation. This is just an example of how pissed the public can get when their concerns are ignored by the government. I'm sure if the government had worked on the forced marriage and honor killing problems then this vote would not have happened.
I do agree that if there is a 9/11 type event in Europe that their reaction will be as grand domestically as our reaction was on a foreign level.

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 12:34 PM (wuv1c)

17 "For example what is the size of political Islam, how big is the
problem of forced marriage? Do we have that problem? Yes we do, we know
we do, but which groups are practising it, and how do we deal with it?"

I am sick of everyone having to "deal" with this Islamic shit. It seems to me you come into a country to live and you basically do what they do. If you don't like the culture of your new home, you get the fuck out. Why in the fuck does everyone have to accommodate every damn thing?

Switzerland is not an Islamic nation, it is a Christian nation. They don't want their post card picture towns dotted with Minarets. It would probably damage tourism. That is their right. If Muslims want to live in a place where their religion is accommodated fully, their are plenty of hellholes around the world they can go.

Posted by: Ken at November 30, 2009 12:35 PM (9zzk+)

18 Obama should hold a summit, asking for all nations to allow other churches in their country. Invite Saudi Arabia.

Posted by: wHodat at November 30, 2009 12:37 PM (+sBB4)

19 Completely OT but does anyone here know if 'The World at War' DVD series is any good? Or...recommend another box WWII DVD series?

Posted by: Tami at November 30, 2009 12:37 PM (VuLos)

20 All the swiss did was ban future weapons caches.

Posted by: Berserker at November 30, 2009 12:38 PM (gWHrG)

21 The vote was a bit of good news in these dark times. Same with the Honduras elections.

Posted by: Seriously at November 30, 2009 12:39 PM (h3hCq)

22 Islam is a shit stain on the world's underwear. The Swiss have decided that they prefer towear clean underwear.

Posted by: conscious, but incoherent at November 30, 2009 12:39 PM (Vu6sl)

23 >Immigration didn't work out so good for the Apache
it's unfortunate that they were already here when we showed up to discover our country

Posted by: Larry Braverman at November 30, 2009 12:40 PM (KOkrW)

24 Some Hispanic organization guy told me we are not a melting pot, but a "salad", or something like that. But certainly there are western norms that citizens and even visitors must conform/melt to ...

... Like no honor killings, no child prostitution, no sharia law, etc. Of course coming to our country illegally is getting off on the wrong foot, as well as expecting others to pay for health care or food, while working jobs and paying no taxes.

Hopefully this vote by the Swiss will start a broad discussion, and adherents of the diversity religion will consider that multi-culti may not always be better.

Posted by: bill at November 30, 2009 12:40 PM (nUbAO)

25 Drew, that's a little lame no? From a Swiss perpective? How about
from the perspective of the modern world. It's i would think forced
marriage and honor killings are something that we can all agree have no
place in Western countries.

Ben,

I get what you are saying but my point is (and I could have been clearer) is that if Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and others want to live that way I don't really care.

I find it reprehensible but I'm not going to try and change their culture. I just don't want them trying to change ours to make it acceptable to us.

Posted by: DrewM. at November 30, 2009 12:41 PM (FCWQb)

26 When are the MTV awards on TV?

Posted by: Obama Voter at November 30, 2009 12:41 PM (h3hCq)

27 "RASMUSSEN: 71% Angry at Federal Government, Up Five Points Since September;
46% Very Angry, up 10 points... Developing.."

I'm in.

Posted by: wHodat at November 30, 2009 12:41 PM (+sBB4)

28 @21

Too bad all the bits of good news are happening overseas these days.

@22

Because they never know when they'll be in a car wreck, no doubt...

Posted by: Nighthawk at November 30, 2009 12:41 PM (OtQXp)

29 19
I do not know but I know Call of Duty Modern War 2 kicks ass. Especially once you unlock the M16 with red dot sight and three round bursts.Hook thatup with tactical insertion and camp all day long.

Posted by: Left Wing Pussy at November 30, 2009 12:41 PM (SqAkN)

30 All the swiss did was ban future weapons caches.

Lot of truth in that snark.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 30, 2009 12:43 PM (49ffz)

31 and good on the swiss (mmm- cheese)for saying no to more minarets- who wants a symbol of forced clitorectomy and sub-human savagery screwing up the skyline- not to mention that awful racket when the goat-fuckers get on the megaphones and call the others to prayer from the top of the minarets

Posted by: Larry Braverman at November 30, 2009 12:43 PM (KOkrW)

32 Left Wing Pussy at November 30, 2009 12:41 PM (SqAkN)

Governor Patrick? Is that you?

Posted by: fluffy at November 30, 2009 12:44 PM (4Kl5M)

33 Some Hispanic organization guy told me we are not a
melting pot, but a "salad", or something like that. But certainly
there are western norms that citizens and even visitors must
conform/melt to ...

Posted by: bill at November 30, 2009 12:40 PM (nUbAO)
The melting pot model has worked extremely well - the US being the most obvious example, but not the only one. Essentially by taking those tired of kneeling to various lords and dictators, and integrating them into a new culture, we built the most powerful state in the world - something the Europeans of say 1775 would be pretty darn shocked about.
The salad/mosaic/etc model though is best typified by Yugoslavia, and can generally be expected to break up, hopefully peacefully, generally not.

Posted by: 18-1 at November 30, 2009 12:45 PM (7BU4a)

34 17 ken

that is my feeling as well. how many cathedrals do they allow in their islamic states? how about bibles in saudi arabia?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at November 30, 2009 12:45 PM (ucxC/)

35 Do we have that problem? Yes we do, we know we do, but which groups are practising it, and how do we deal with it?"
Here's a hint: it starts with the word "No". It ends with with "This is not allowed".
I'd like to think the Swiss have a right to govern their country. If they want to outlaw minarets, they should be able to do so. If the Muslim immigrants don't like it, they can move out just like they moved in.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 30, 2009 12:46 PM (ZGhSv)

36 Yet banning minarets does nothing to address that fear. It merely makes
it less likely that the average Swiss will be confronted by a visible
symbol of Islam upon his skyline.

Are they banning the construction of the minarets or the use of them? By use I mean having the Imam broadcast his call to prayer across the town at 200 decibels several times a day.

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 30, 2009 12:48 PM (IqfKc)

37 When the elites stifle debate and declare subjects of great importance
beyond the pale of public discussion, the people will eventually make
themselves heard and in ways that might be far more drastic than if
they had a say earlier in the process.

Indeed. When this happens, it's a time for bloodshed. No apologies for that.

Posted by: Jesusland at November 30, 2009 12:48 PM (khPxz)

38 34 17 ken that is my feeling as well. how many cathedrals do they allow in their islamic states? how about bibles in saudi arabia?
Posted by: phoenixgirl at November 30, 2009 12:45 PM (ucxC/)
Saudi Arabia is a wonderful country. In fact, the last time me and the wife visited there, they presented my wife with an honorary drivers license. Just sayin'.

Posted by: Joe Biden at November 30, 2009 12:48 PM (Vu6sl)

39 Hey, Isn't the 8 millionth most holy site in islam up in them thar Alps?

Posted by: bowel movement at November 30, 2009 12:49 PM (Fd5yK)

40 19
The War at Sea was made in the 1950s or 1960s and was pretty good.
I've seen the World at War commercials and it does look good, however my problem with the "war documentaries" is their usage of war footage. Often they will stick in a b-roll of footage in places where it doesn't belong, just because they didn't have footage of the historical event they happen to be discussing. For example they will show the same footage of an dog fight over and over again for different battles. Every time they talk about the German army they will play the same footage of a stuka dive bombing.
IF you buy and it and like it, let me know.

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 12:49 PM (wuv1c)

41 37,

There is a way to stop that crap, I revert to post #26!!!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 12:49 PM (BmbsW)

42 Switzerland does not belong to the EU. They do not need to follow the One World edits of the EU. Good for them. The Swiss franc still rules. They can still enact their lwas or edits without the EU conteracting them. Pee on the EU. They are Socialist all the way!

Posted by: mystry at November 30, 2009 12:49 PM (kmgIE)

43 I need to see Ace with a copy of today's newspaper.

Don't worry. Ace will wake up in a couple of hours, pop a couple of extra-strength Tylenols, stash the body in his crawlspace, and then put up a blog post saying "Hey everybody!! I just heard that the Swiss banned minarets!!"

Posted by: OregonMuse at November 30, 2009 12:50 PM (6kI9E)

44 Eveline Widmer Schlumpf is the best female bureaucrat name I've heard since Diana Moon Glampers.

Posted by: The Chap in the Deerstalker Cap at November 30, 2009 12:50 PM (qndXR)

45 >that is my feeling as well. how many cathedrals do they allow in their islamic states? how about bibles in saudi arabia?
Posted by: phoenixgirl at November 30, 2009 12:45 PM (ucxC/)
blam!
outta the park!
something flying that high should have a stewardess on it

Posted by: Larry Braverman at November 30, 2009 12:50 PM (KOkrW)

46 17 ken that is my feeling as well. how many cathedrals do they allow in their islamic states? how about bibles in saudi arabia?

Forget that, look at the the Bosnians and Albanians did and are still doing to 15th century churches that took decades and centuries to build. not a peep out of the EU, but ban minarets and its the second coming of the thid reich..

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 12:51 PM (wuv1c)

47 Ummm post#29!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 12:51 PM (BmbsW)

48 @ 37

Are they banning the construction of the minarets or the use of them?
By use I mean having the Imam broadcast his call to prayer across the
town at 200 decibels several times a day.

If they're going to do that I think the local townspeople should set up their own PA system that, three seconds after the call to 'prayer' ends, belts out an ear-splitting Johnny Weissmuller "Tarzan" yell. Mockery is a great weapon.

Posted by: Nighthawk at November 30, 2009 12:51 PM (OtQXp)

49 Eveline Widmer Schlumpf is the best female bureaucrat name I've heard since Diana Moon Glampers.
Fannie Lou Hammer?

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 12:51 PM (wuv1c)

50 21
The vote was a bit of good news in these dark times. Same with the Honduras elections.

And it just sucks that our political elites are now on the wrong side of these issues. I have no doubt President Hussein will condemn the Swiss if he opens his damn gob.

Posted by: the real joe at November 30, 2009 12:52 PM (rFTt2)

51 Well, We could tell the Saudis to f-off if the global warmers would let us drill for oil and gas on our own land. And build some nuclear reactors.

Posted by: bowel movement at November 30, 2009 12:53 PM (Fd5yK)

52 I do not know but I know Call of Duty Modern War
2 kicks ass. Especially once you unlock the M16 with red dot sight and
three round bursts.Hook thatup with tactical insertion and camp all
day long.

Posted by: Left Wing Pussy at November 30, 2009 12:41 PM (SqAkN)
I'm trying to find out if he (my son) already has that. He's stationed in Germany right now, so I'm not up to date on what he has or doesn't have.IF you buy and it and like it, let me know.
Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 12:49 PM (wuv1c)

The Amazon reviewers give it 4 1/2 (avg.) out of 5 stars. I was hoping someone here owned it and could give me a yea or nay on it.

Posted by: Tami at November 30, 2009 12:53 PM (VuLos)

53 Think of those minarets as a big islamic middle finger rising above the skyline. The Swiss do.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 30, 2009 12:54 PM (dQdrY)

54 31
and good on the swiss (mmm- cheese)for saying no to more minarets- who
wants a symbol of forced clitorectomy and sub-human savagery screwing
up the skyline- not to mention that awful racket when the goat-fuckers
get on the megaphones and call the others to prayer from the top of the
minarets

LOL!! Put me in mind of the Screaming Blue Messiahs' I Can Speak American.

http://tinyurl.com/ycwf8cc

Posted by: kathysaysso at November 30, 2009 12:55 PM (ZtwUX)

55 2010 is going to be laughable.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 12:55 PM (BmbsW)

56 50
Eveline Widmer Schlumpf is the best female bureaucrat name I've heard since Diana Moon Glampers.
Fannie Lou Hammer?
Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 12:51 PM (wuv1c)
I vote for Fannie Lou Hammer!

Posted by: Buster Hymen at November 30, 2009 12:55 PM (Vu6sl)

57 57,

Don't forget about those scrunts Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 12:57 PM (BmbsW)

58 freakin sock.

Posted by: Mr. Pink at November 30, 2009 12:57 PM (SqAkN)

59 When I was in Antigua recently I met several couples from the UK. They were all planning to leave England because they all said "We don't recognize it any more". One of them was going to live with family in the Bermuda. The others were also looking to live elsewhere in the realm. Oh yeah, and just about everyone I met said they'd be voting BNP in the future, though none of them had before.

Message to political elites: This is what happens when you ram decades of unregulated immigration down a nation's throat without once consulting the people. Their daily lives are being forever changed with their neighborhoods turned into foreign ghettos where they can no longer feel welcome on the streets they've always called home.

This is what happens when you pretend it is racism to demand that immigrants accept and integrate into the culture of their host country.

Posted by: Rod Rescueman at November 30, 2009 12:59 PM (QxGmu)

60 The Amazon reviewers give it 4 1/2 (avg.) out of 5 stars. I was hoping someone here owned it and could give me a yea or nay on it.

Posted by: Tami at November 30, 2009 12:53 PM (VuLos)
Hi Tami, I own COD Modern Warfare 2 and I'd give it a 5. My son-in-law and his best friend are COD addicts and they both give MW2 a 5. It's worth the money.

Posted by: conscious, but incoherent at November 30, 2009 12:59 PM (Vu6sl)

61 T-Minus 3 Years and 51 Days til Zero Hour

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 01:00 PM (wuv1c)

62 Fuck islam, fuck muslims, and fuck Obama

Posted by: Todd at November 30, 2009 01:01 PM (LLOGQ)

63 Next thing you know the Swiss'll ban suicide bombers, too. That's anti-Islam and anti-child. Creepy Dark Agers!

Posted by: t-bird at November 30, 2009 01:01 PM (FcR7P)

64 The question is what will the Swiss do when some clown issues a fatwa calling for violence (has it happened yet?) and another clown acts on it. Will they blame themselves for being too protective of their heritage or will they drop the existing minarets?

Posted by: Jean at November 30, 2009 01:01 PM (Scxfk)

65 63,

I've found that eating ribs makes you feel better.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:02 PM (BmbsW)

66 We ever going to get a thread where we go super nerd and share our Xbox gamertags? I like you guys but it would be fun to shoot you with an M16 online.

Posted by: Mr. Pink at November 30, 2009 01:02 PM (SqAkN)

67 You mean to tell me a Democratic country has decided AGAINST allowing people from a certain culture that, just so happen, to be THE cause of dead innocents all around the globe to set up monuments?

Good for them. Islam should be shunned worldwide. Something along the lines of: "Stop killing people, or GTFO!" It boggles my mind that this hasn't happened yet. After Islamic acts of terrorism, when some Islam spokesman "condemns" (read here's why we did it) the act, they are never questioned further. Like, "Why does your religion kill so much?" type of questions.

Posted by: MelodicMetal at November 30, 2009 01:04 PM (x4S2a)

68 65 The question is what will the Swiss do when some clown issues a fatwa calling for violence (has it happened yet?) and another clown acts on it. Will they blame themselves for being too protective of their heritage or will they drop the existing minarets?
Posted by: Jean at November 30, 2009 01:01 PM (Scxfk)
I would hope that they would drop the existing minarets. There is no such thing as a moderate muslim. In reality, they are just silent enablers.

Posted by: conscious, but incoherent at November 30, 2009 01:04 PM (Vu6sl)

69 This attack on religion makes so mad that I want to commute some sentences.

Posted by: The Huckster at November 30, 2009 01:04 PM (muUqs)

70 If they're going to do that I think the local townspeople should set up
their own PA system that, three seconds after the call to 'prayer'
ends, belts out an ear-splitting Johnny Weissmuller "Tarzan" yell.
Mockery is a great weapon.

An excellent idea. Aren't there cities in Michigan (Dearborn?) where the Muslim call to prayer is broadcast all over the town? This would be an interesting experiment.

Suggested "follow-up" sounds:

1. Tarzan yell
2. Flatulence
3. Laugh soundtrack
4. Loony Toons theme

Posted by: OregonMuse at November 30, 2009 01:04 PM (6kI9E)

71 I'd like to think the Swiss have a right to govern their country. If
they want to outlaw minarets, they should be able to do so. If the
Muslim immigrants don't like it, they can move out just like they moved
in.

I bet if the muslims were better citizens, the people wouldn't be voting against minarets. Problem is muslims don't want to adapt to another society, they want everyone to adapt to them. I was at work a long time ago at a company (I won't say their name, but it rhymes with Bintel) and I was chastised by another employee who was muslim for talking in the hallway outside of the room that he and one other muslim were having their prayers in. I was talking about work at fucking work and I am expected to yield to those who are praying at work??? It has been rumored that in the years after I left (back in '90) that they have designated muslim prayer rooms and foot washing stations.

Don't get me wrong. I know a lot of good muslims who are embarrassed by things like this. Most of my muslim friends are in America to escape muslim oppression in places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia yet they still practice their religion here. They just don't want to be controlled by it.

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 30, 2009 01:04 PM (IqfKc)

72 @Ben. I keep hearing this term "Modern World" as if it's the catch all for society that reflects some updated logical thought processes on how we, as humans, conduct ourselves within humanity. I find it absurd that people think we can simply overcome the basic, natural desire to associate ourselves with "like" individuals who share commonalities from a societal perspective that are driven from, for lack of a better term, "a tribal instinct". Ensuring that ones' culture is not diluted, obviously lends itself to its persistence. So while people often oooh and ahhh over certain cultures and out of the sides of their mouths whisper remarks of "Why can't they integrate other cultures".. well, the irony is too thick to have to point it out.

Posted by: UGRev at November 30, 2009 01:05 PM (uhjTJ)

73 When I was in Antigua recently I met several couples from the UK. They were all planning to leave England because they all said "We don't recognize it any more". One of them was going to live with family in the Bermuda. The others were also looking to live elsewhere in the realm. Oh yeah, and just about everyone I met said they'd be voting BNP in the future, though none of them had before.Message to political elites: This is what happens when you ram decades of unregulated immigration down a nation's throat without once consulting the people. Their daily lives are being forever changed with their neighborhoods turned into foreign ghettos where they can no longer feel welcome on the streets they've always called home.This is what happens when you pretend it is racism to demand that immigrants accept and integrate into the culture of their host country.
Not to break the goodwin law..
These governments ignore public sentiment at their expense. Eventually parties will come around that will promise the people what they want, but really have much more sinister plans in mind. The Tories and Lib Dems/Labor better tackle the problem before the public turns to a party that takes it to the extreme. If not you might see an Oslwald Mosley British Union of Facists redux.

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 01:06 PM (wuv1c)

74 Hi Tami, I own COD Modern Warfare
2 and I'd give it a 5. My son-in-law and his best friend are COD
addicts and they both give MW2 a 5. It's worth the money.

Posted by: conscious, but incoherent at November 30, 2009 12:59 PM (Vu6sl)
Sorry conscious...my post was unclear. The 4 1/2 star rating was for the World at War DVD series, not the Modern Warfare 2 game. But thanks for the info on COD MW2!

Posted by: Tami at November 30, 2009 01:06 PM (VuLos)

75 A little grunt advice, keep a ruck packed and mags filled!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:07 PM (BmbsW)

76 Left 4 Dead 2.
My first impression of the original Left 4 Dead was 'meh, another zombie game'. Not a bit deal.
But then I saw it played...wait... what? You can play as the zombies!?!
Oh hell yeah.

Posted by: Entropy at November 30, 2009 01:09 PM (IsLT6)

77 Immigration has been a great boon for many countries (namely the US) but it shouldn't be a national or cultural suicide pact.


This is a misnomer. The only countries for whom Immigration has been a boon are those that limit it to the most part to immigrants who, nominally, share the same religion of the host country. The US would not be what it is today if Muslims had immigrated here in the same numbers Catholics and Christians had in the past. Integration entails a huge change in culture and politics already. To throw religion into the mix is probably asking for the impossible, at least on a large scale. The lunacy of the left is the ridiculous belief that religion is simply part of culture.

Posted by: Rocks at November 30, 2009 01:10 PM (Q1lie)

78 Suggested "follow-up" sounds:

1. Tarzan yell
2. Flatulence
3. Laugh soundtrack
4. Loony Toons theme


Posted by: OregonMuse at November 30, 2009 01:04 PM (6kI9E)
5. Porky Pig: "Th-th-th-th-th-th-THAT'S ALL FOLKS!"
6. The "Beer Barrel Polka"
7. Sr. Mary Elephant: "Class... class.. class... SHUT UP!!! ... thank you!"

Posted by: Nighthawk at November 30, 2009 01:11 PM (OtQXp)

79 Suggested "follow-up" sounds:
Suggested "during" sounds:
Benny Hill music.

Posted by: Entropy at November 30, 2009 01:12 PM (IsLT6)

80 14
Good for the Swiss, too bad they just put a big target on their
backs for Christmas. Fortunately for them, they're all required to be
armed, so hopefully they defend themselves.

I have no doubt that when pushed far enough, the Swiss will let us all know what "going medieval" really means.

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 30, 2009 01:12 PM (IqfKc)

81 Suggested calls............ Peter's laugh on Family Guy.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:13 PM (BmbsW)

82 67, now convince some KosKids to do the same and we could have some real fun, or somebody could sockpuppet erg and we can all shoot him.

Posted by: Jean at November 30, 2009 01:14 PM (PjevJ)

83 Suggested calls....A sphincter says what?

Posted by: Rocks at November 30, 2009 01:15 PM (Q1lie)

84 The US would not be what it is today if Muslims had immigrated here in the same numbers Catholics and Christians had in the past.
People also overlook the fact that when we were importing a country, we had an emptycountryto fill.Namelya vast, humungous whole continent of unclaimed and half unexplored land up for grabbing to whomever cared to stake out a plot of it.

Posted by: Entropy at November 30, 2009 01:15 PM (IsLT6)

85 re: 53 The Amazon reviewers give it 4 1/2 (avg.) out of 5 stars. I was hoping
someone here owned it and could give me a yea or nay on it.

Tami, all of the XYs in the household (2 16 year-olds and one 39 year-old) give it 2 thumbs way up. I guess it has a good beat and you can dance to it.

Posted by: Beth W at November 30, 2009 01:16 PM (gcRbW)

86 Steve talked about favoring representative democracy in favor of a direct democracy. In general I support that stance. But when the representatives fail to represent the will of their constituents, and instead arrogate for themselves arbiters of all that is right, that fails to be a representative democracy and instead becomes a repressive democracy. The "elites" can only ignore the will of the people so long.

As to culture, when a culture, like so much of Western Europe, declares that multiculturalism is king, and that no culture is superior to another, they will fall to a culture, such as Islam, that considers itself to be, not just superior, but the ONLY acceptable culture.

Posted by: XBradTC at November 30, 2009 01:17 PM (y0E9v)

87 Suggested Calls - something by Sousa

Posted by: Jean at November 30, 2009 01:17 PM (tJF9l)

88 "A little grunt advice, keep a ruck packed and mags filled!"

Way ahead of you grunt, way ahead.....

Posted by: Todd at November 30, 2009 01:17 PM (LLOGQ)

89 It isn't just honor killings that are plaguing the Swiss. The majority of rapes in Switzerland and perpetrated by Muslims on Swiss women. No go areas, the percentage of Muslims on the dole, high criminality rates. Those are of concern to the Swiss as well.

Posted by: Jack at November 30, 2009 01:18 PM (bvDV5)

90 89,

You have a Cobra Gunship??? Wow, I envy you dude!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:19 PM (BmbsW)

91 re:86 Tami- n'er mind... I was talking about the game, not the movies. I think we're buying the movies for the f-i-l for Christmas. He's a HUGE WWII movie fan.

Posted by: Beth W at November 30, 2009 01:19 PM (gcRbW)

92 Once upon a time, with a militant muslim incursion into Europe, the Europeans responded with Crusades.



Posted by: Naqamel at November 30, 2009 01:20 PM (UMwMT)

93 The only countries for whom Immigration has been a boon are those that
limit it to the most part to immigrants who, nominally, share the same
religion of the host country.

Rocks,

Sort of as far as it goes.

Most of today's immigrants from Mexico and Central and South America are Christians. That doesn't change the effect they have on the dominate culture.

We look back on previous waves of immigration as "European" but there were lots of tensions between the original British/Dutch groups with Irish, then German, then Italian and then eastern European groups.

The two biggest differences between past immigration and today's is the idea assimilation is considered racist/nationalist and technology. Back in the day when people came they stayed and broke previous ties. Now with travel, modern media and such, it's possible to stay attached to 'home' and not need to assimilate.

Posted by: DrewM. at November 30, 2009 01:20 PM (FCWQb)

94 93,

Only this time they won't be riding horses and carrying crosses!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:21 PM (BmbsW)

95
Where is Charles Martel when you need him.

Posted by: Dang Straights at November 30, 2009 01:21 PM (Haq+B)

96 Suggested calls: Don't Call Me White by NOFX
http://tiny.cc/KHaiV

Posted by: Mr. Pink at November 30, 2009 01:21 PM (SqAkN)

97 I was talking about the game, not the movies. I
think we're buying the movies for the f-i-l for Christmas. He's a HUGE
WWII movie fan.

Posted by: Beth W at November 30, 2009 01:19 PM (gcRbW)
Thanks Beth. I polled another site about the World at War DVD series and got about 20 thumbs up responses so far. They couldn't recommend it enough. I just purchased it on Amazon for $75 bucks.I'm still trying to find out if my son already owns the COD MW2 game. He hasn't responded yet to my AIM msg.

Posted by: Tami at November 30, 2009 01:22 PM (VuLos)

98 We look back on previous waves of immigration as "European" but there were lots of tensions between the original British/Dutch groups with Irish, then German, then Italian and then eastern European groups.
It's also been shown that for all the explosive immigration waves we've had, and all the fretting that's been done in the past about them (Irish and then later Italians namely), none of them were anywhere near as large as the immigration we've got now from Mexico.

Posted by: Entropy at November 30, 2009 01:22 PM (IsLT6)

99 Suggested Calls... 'To Hell With The Devil' by Stryper.

Posted by: Naqamel at November 30, 2009 01:24 PM (UMwMT)

100 We no longer have immigration. We have invasion.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 30, 2009 01:25 PM (dQdrY)

101 It's also been shown that for all the explosive immigration waves we've had, and all the fretting that's been done in the past about them (Irish and then later Italians namely), none of them were anywhere near as large as the immigration we've got now from Mexico.


The Irish and Italians also didn't demand that everyone here learn *their* language.

Posted by: Naqamel at November 30, 2009 01:25 PM (UMwMT)

102 Suggested reponses to calls of prayer, anything by ABBA real loud!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:25 PM (BmbsW)

103 Hey, our religion states that all you fuckers are infidels anyway. We SHOULD kill you. See, we can be generous.

Posted by: Islam at November 30, 2009 01:25 PM (x4S2a)

104 19 Completely OT but does anyone here know if 'The World at War' DVD series is any good? Or...recommend another box WWII DVD series
If it is the BBC version I watched back in the early eighties, as I remember,it is excellent.

Posted by: easy at November 30, 2009 01:26 PM (hq71Y)

105 6. The "Beer Barrel Polka"

I'm not familiar with this one.

Posted by: OregonMuse at November 30, 2009 01:27 PM (6kI9E)

106 One of the interesting aspects of European technocracy is that it generally leaves the appearance of representative government while all the real decisions are made by unaccountable bureaucrats.
Great, isn't it?

Posted by: Wesley Mouch at November 30, 2009 01:28 PM (1Iiqg)

107 Da - da - da - daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Oh it's much more ominous than that!
Reuters headline:
Swiss minaret ban may signal new right-wing surge

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at November 30, 2009 01:30 PM (RkRxq)

108 100
Suggested Calls... 'To Hell With The Devil' by Stryper.

"For Whom the Bell Tolls" by Metallica

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 30, 2009 01:30 PM (IqfKc)

109 If it is the BBC version I watched back in the early eighties, as I remember,it is excellent.

Posted by: easy at November 30, 2009 01:26 PM (hq71Y)
Yep, that's the one.

Posted by: Tami at November 30, 2009 01:31 PM (VuLos)

110 108,

Dang extremists!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:31 PM (BmbsW)

111 "We have to get out of this place" The Animals.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:32 PM (BmbsW)

112 ob/nitpick: the Apache (and Navajo) <i>were</i> immigrants (from southern Alaska). When the Europeans (Spanish) migrated into their territory not long after they did, theyhelped more than they hurt.Immigration worked out well enough for the Apache...
It was the Comanche who brought the Apache low - and that wasn't immigration; that was a brutal war of conquest, slavery, and extermination. You'll want to read The Comanche Empire by Hamalainen - a fascinating and undertaught story about North America's indigenous "Mongol horde", 1600-1850 or thereabouts.

Posted by: David Ross at November 30, 2009 01:32 PM (9Sbz+)

113 A good theme song for Swiss elites could be ACDC's Highway To Hell.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 30, 2009 01:32 PM (dQdrY)

114 Suggested Calls - Star Spangled Banner by Jimi Hendrix

Posted by: Chipper at November 30, 2009 01:32 PM (YlnLE)

115 Suggested Calls... 'To Hell With The Devil' by Stryper."For Whom the Bell Tolls" by Metallica
Rock The Casbah.

Posted by: Entropy at November 30, 2009 01:33 PM (IsLT6)

116 106
6. The "Beer Barrel Polka"

I'm not familiar with this one.


Posted by: OregonMuse at November 30, 2009 01:27 PM (6kI9E)
Here's an example: http://tinyurl.com/ycdqz3j
Some ironic trivia: the same tune was used by the Andrews Sisters for a WWII song called "Here Comes the Navy"

Posted by: Nighthawk at November 30, 2009 01:33 PM (OtQXp)

117 "Big girls don't cry".......Four Seasons.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:36 PM (BmbsW)

118 Suggested calls: Gimme Dat Nut by Eazy E
Fuck the World by ICP
Wutang Clan Ain't Nothing To Fuck With

Posted by: Mr. Pink at November 30, 2009 01:36 PM (SqAkN)

119 116
Suggested Calls... 'To Hell With The Devil' by Stryper.

"For Whom the Bell Tolls" by Metallica

Rock The Casbah.


"Ballz to the Wall".....Accept

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 30, 2009 01:36 PM (IqfKc)

120 Thanks, Nighthawk. I loves me some oom-pah bands!

Posted by: OregonMuse at November 30, 2009 01:37 PM (6kI9E)

121 "War" Edwin Starr

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:38 PM (BmbsW)

122 121
Thanks, Nighthawk. I loves me some oom-pah bands!


Posted by: OregonMuse at November 30, 2009 01:37 PM (6kI9E)
You're welcome! I like 'em too, and I bet they'll drive the "Allah Fubar" crowd nuts.

Posted by: Nighthawk at November 30, 2009 01:39 PM (OtQXp)

123 I got one.
I Come From the Land Down Under by Men at Work

Posted by: Mr. Pink at November 30, 2009 01:40 PM (SqAkN)

124
Suggested calls: Gimme Dat Nut by Eazy E

Fuck the World by ICP

Wutang Clan Ain't Nothing To Fuck With

Posted by: Mr. Pink at November 30, 2009 01:36 PM (SqAkN)
"We'll Meet Again" - see if they get the Dr. Strangelove implication.

Posted by: Nighthawk at November 30, 2009 01:40 PM (OtQXp)

125 Swiss minaret ban may signal new right-wing surge

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at November 30, 2009 01:30 PM (RkRxq)
Europe never learns. The political class thinks they know better and so the people have nowhere to go but to a demagogue. If the people had had a say in immigration in the first place, this vote would have never happened. Then they go to a LePen.

Posted by: AmishDude at November 30, 2009 01:40 PM (T0NGe)

126 Give me a call when Iam able toerect a steeple in Riyadh.

Posted by: Amor de Cosmos at November 30, 2009 01:41 PM (N8G0F)

127 Why are we even discussing this on the leftists terms? This whole notion that there is anything wrong with the vote--anything whatsoever--is to assent to the leftist view. And that view is a one-way street, where everything runs in favor of their preferred policy.

"Free speech (except when you are racists, Nazis, etc.)" How often does that have to play out before we stop letting them set the rules?

Don't give them the definition of free speech--this is as much an exercise of free speech as is the right of the mozzies to speak. By letting their minority "right" trump the majority, the leftist view of free speech is nothing more than another tool of oppression. Look at what they choose to defend and that tells you all you need to know about their view of free speech--it is only of value insofar as it can be used as a tool to attack their political opponents.

Posted by: jimmuy at November 30, 2009 01:41 PM (EzcbY)

128 Bodies by Drowning Pool.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 30, 2009 01:41 PM (dQdrY)

129 Most of today's immigrants from Mexico and Central and South America
are Christians. That doesn't change the effect they have on the
dominate culture.

Drew, no one is suggesting they don't have an effect. But even at the ridiculously large numbers that Mexican's are immigrating here they are being assimilated. The change they are having while large is mostly an addition to American culture, the same as past waves. That is happening and it's works, generally, because we don't need to spend a lot of time arguing about who God's prophets are.

The two biggest differences between past immigration and today's is the
idea assimilation is considered racist/nationalist and technology. Back
in the day when people came they stayed and broke previous ties. Now
with travel, modern media and such, it's possible to stay attached to
'home' and not need to assimilate.

There really isn't much difference except for numbers. In the past letters and phone calls were just as prevalent as texts and emails. Every group had a local paper in their language with detail news of the home country. The problem with Mexican immigration is it's sheer size and illegality, not the Mexicans themselves.
The same would not be true if 2 million Muslims a year were entering the country, even legally.

Posted by: Rocks at November 30, 2009 01:41 PM (Q1lie)

130 "Pigs"............Pink Floyd. or "Animals".......Pink Floyd.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:42 PM (BmbsW)

131 Give me a call when Iam able toerect a steeple in Riyadh.
Word.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at November 30, 2009 01:42 PM (B+qrE)

132 The only countries for whom Immigration has been a boon are those that
limit it to the most part to immigrants who, nominally, share the same
religion of the host country.

Yea, all those Chinese who built the transcontinental railroads, and Japanese who came to California/Hawaii have been real problems...

Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 30, 2009 01:42 PM (49ffz)

133 there ought to be some restrictions on what the general public can actually vote on.

The international political class all think exactly alike. Which is to say, very much like the Politburo. Among the long list of things which the European public should not be allowed to vote on is whether their countries should be abolished and incorporated into a European superstate.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 01:44 PM (RLIM+)

134 When will muslims (the good guys) learn that they are making a freight train take a dirt road?

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:44 PM (BmbsW)

135 Suggested calls: Who Let the Dogs Out by Baha Men
Where

Posted by: Mr. Pink at November 30, 2009 01:45 PM (SqAkN)

136 Suggested calls: Who Let the Dogs Out by Baha Men
Where my

Posted by: Mr. Pink at November 30, 2009 01:45 PM (SqAkN)

137 Ya know what I'm wondering about?
A couple/few years ago I was reading a lot of stories about Muslims in the U.S. not wanting dogs in their cabs, not ringing up pork rinds at Target, etc.
I haven't heard those stories in a while.
Is it just because the blog that used to care about that stuff doesn't exist anymore? IFKWIMAITYD.
Or did the fact that people pushed back actually discourage this kind of behavior?
If the latter, then maybe the Swiss reaction can be seen as drawing a line in the sand, saying "don't push us" etc.
Maybe bullies will stop pushing people who stand up to them and just aim at the easier targets.
That's not the end of it, I know, but maybe, just maybe, it helps.

Posted by: Mama AJ at November 30, 2009 01:45 PM (Be4xl)

138 Yea, all those Chinese who built the transcontinental railroads, and Japanese who came to California/Hawaii have been real problems...
Actually, they have, and Hawai and Californiaare overdue to leave the Union as a consequence.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 01:45 PM (RLIM+)

139 Why the hell does it do that to me sometimes? Is it cause I accidentally hit the shift button or something?

Posted by: Mr. Pink at November 30, 2009 01:45 PM (SqAkN)

140 The Swiss justice minister is in agreement with the US' Founding Fathers here, yes? "the tyranny of the majority" = "the people cannot be trusted"

Posted by: anonymous irishman at November 30, 2009 01:46 PM (x6Dji)

141 140,

Operator error, I'm well versed in it.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:47 PM (BmbsW)

142
"Ace of Spades" by Motorhead would drive them back to their caves.

Posted by: Flying Monkey at November 30, 2009 01:47 PM (Oxen1)

143 The problem with Mexican immigration is it's sheer size and illegality, not the Mexicans themselves.

This I can agree with. Generally speaking, it takes about 3 generations from poor impoverished immigrant to middle class. For the vast majority of illegals, we're still on generation #1.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 30, 2009 01:48 PM (49ffz)

144 It's not just appearance. Minarets are noisy with the call to prayer at 5 AM. An argument can be made on the basis of noise pollution.

Posted by: jobmd at November 30, 2009 01:48 PM (P2ATT)

145 "A little grunt advice, keep a ruck packed and mags filled!"
This has been the law in Switzerland, and sadly may soon be repealed.
Once upon a time, with a militant muslim incursion into Europe, the Europeans responded with Crusades.
Yeah, well the Pope's a German. So, Ixnay on the Usadescray alktay.
Swiss response to the call to prayer? A little something by Rossini, long associated here with the Lone Ranger.
And knock Kessler's hat off the pole while you're at it.

Posted by: William F'n Tell, Baby! at November 30, 2009 01:49 PM (/VEEI)

146 This isn't the Ace of Spades HQ I thought I knew.

Posted by: FUBAR at November 30, 2009 01:49 PM (cPa0+)

147 "Alley Oop oop" ........Hollywood Argyles.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:50 PM (BmbsW)

148 Why the hell does it do that to me sometimes? Is it cause I accidentally hit the shift button or something?
I don't know what key stroke does it, but for a while there I was doing it all the time!! I even emailed Pixy to ask what did it, but strangely enough I never got an answer.
'Nam Grunt, I like to call it PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard and chair).

Posted by: Mama AJ at November 30, 2009 01:50 PM (Be4xl)

149 I'm getting pretty damn sick and tired of the whole "ooooh, don't tick the extremists off or you'll make it harder for moderate Muslims" bee-ess.

We go out of our way to not blame them for anything (see Ft Hood for the latest example), and modify our lives to accomodate them (special prayer rooms since the ecumenical ones okay for everyone else apparently have "cooties", our publications afraid to say or picture Mohammed because that's somehow "blasphemous", removal of Piglet from government offices because a cartoon pig is "offensive",etc.). Meanwhile, the bodies stack up, "Londinistan" has clowns like Anjem Choudhary running around screaming about how eeeevilll the West is when he's not busy cashing welfare checks, and any time anyone says that something they did is not cool, they get blasted as racists/Islamophobes/insert-your-favorite-insult here.

Screw 'em.

Maybe it's time that they policed their own instead of constantly screaming about how the rest of us are oppressing them. So far...I haven't heard much of that going on, so pardon me if I start thinking the only thing these so-called "moderates" do is look pretty for the cameras as they soulfully say that "x" is not true Islam, and, by the way, they hope there will not be any anti-Islam incidents in reaction to what just occurred......blah, blah, blah.

Posted by: bigpinkfluffybunny at November 30, 2009 01:51 PM (KWhJd)

150 For the vast majority of illegals, we're still on generation #1.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 30, 2009 01:48 PM (49ffz)
They are also coming into a corrupting welfare state. It is not the same conditions. People don't immiigrate for freedom anymore. They immigrate for the milk and honey...and govt. cheese.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 30, 2009 01:51 PM (dQdrY)

151 Actually, they have, and Hawai and Californiaare overdue to leave the Union as a consequence.

IMO, the orientals are one of the few bastions of sanity left in CA. Them and maybe the Hells Angels who are looking pretty sane compared to CA government.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 30, 2009 01:52 PM (49ffz)

152 What is that song by Ozzie that starts with that crazy laugh?

Ah, haahaaaha HAAAAAAAA

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at November 30, 2009 01:52 PM (DIYmd)

153 Too often democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for dinner.Put me in the Opponent of Direct Democracy And Ardent Supporter of Representative Democracy camp.

Those two statements contradict each other. You either fear democracy or you don't. There is no "representative" escape clause and representative democracy, in theory, should produce virtually the same results as the direct kind.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 01:52 PM (RLIM+)

154 Shout out to Ace of Spades HQ for supporting religious freedom. Because you know, I'm all about religious freedom.

Posted by: Radical Islam at November 30, 2009 01:52 PM (cPa0+)

155 149,

Very true, hahahaha!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:52 PM (BmbsW)

156 What is that song by Ozzie that starts with that crazy laugh?Ah, haahaaaha HAAAAAAAA
Crazy Train

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 01:53 PM (wuv1c)

157
What is that song by Ozzie that starts with that crazy laugh?

Ah, haahaaaha HAAAAAAAA


Crazy Train


PERFECT.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at November 30, 2009 01:54 PM (DIYmd)

158 Is it just because the blog that used to care about that stuff doesn't exist anymore? IFKWIMAITYD.

IKWYM...but turning instead to stuff worth reading, it looks like Jihad Watch is still there, but I no longer see a separate Dhimmi Watch.

Not sure how that one fell off my reading list.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at November 30, 2009 01:54 PM (NtiET)

159 Actually, they have, and Hawai and Californiaare overdue to leave the Union as a consequence.IMO, the orientals are one of the few bastions of sanity left in CA. Them and maybe the Hells Angels who are looking pretty sane compared to CA government.
The Hells Angels are just preparing themselves for the coming "Mad Max" scenario.

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 01:54 PM (wuv1c)

160 The problem with Mexican immigration is it's sheer size and illegality, not the Mexicans themselves.
No, it's both. Mexicans themselves bring certain attitudes and cultural prejudices with them, and they're not good ones. People are not fungible.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 01:55 PM (RLIM+)

161 "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 30, 2009 01:55 PM (dQdrY)

162 For the vast majority of illegals, we're still on generation #1.
And if we just keep letting more and more people in illegally, we keep having first generation problems! Amazing how that works.
--AJ the 3rd generation Mexican American

Posted by: Mama AJ at November 30, 2009 01:56 PM (Be4xl)

163 I think instead of just banning minarets, they should've banned the practice of the religion. Its definitely politically incorrect, but its logical.
Islam rejects all foundations of western society. Why should the west be forced to accept it? Furthermore, its not just a religion but a political system. It makes no distinction between the secular and temporal. I mean, we all know this, but our elites are too afraid to deal with this. Islamic countries have no problems restricting the "competition" we shouldn't either.

Posted by: Iblis at November 30, 2009 01:56 PM (9221z)

164 It's not just appearance. Minarets are noisy with the call to prayer at 5 AM. An argument can be made on the basis of noise pollution.

Why don't they have "phone call to prayer" or "texts to prayer". Get with the 21st century muzzies. Use cell phones to get "called to prayer". We don't need to use loud speakers anymore. And don't tell me you can't use the cell phones for religious reasons. The Purist Islamists use cell phones in gods name to set of IEDs in the middle east and I don't hear you complaining about that or callin git Harem

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 01:57 PM (wuv1c)

165 162,

I fall into the well armed lamb category.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 01:57 PM (BmbsW)

166 OT, Breitbart:

Revealed: ACORN, NBC worked together in `Undercover Video Sting'

Posted by: AmishDude at November 30, 2009 01:57 PM (T0NGe)

167 Good post, Drew

Posted by: LiveFreeOrDie at November 30, 2009 01:58 PM (nFW7O)

168 Yea, all those Chinese who built the
transcontinental railroads, and Japanese who came to California/Hawaii
have been real problems...

Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 30, 2009 01:42 PM (49ffz)

Chinese and Japanese immigration to this country was never very large. Had Chinese been allowed to immigrate at the rate of 2 to 3 million a year for years on end we would have Chinastates instead of Chinatowns. I doubt anyone would be calling that a boon to the Amercian way of life.

Posted by: Rocks at November 30, 2009 01:59 PM (Q1lie)

169 Islam is an intolerant religion, so fuck 'em. I'm tired of muslims using peoples freedom and goodwill against them, so i repeat, fuck 'em.

Posted by: koopy at November 30, 2009 01:59 PM (XllG0)

170 So when all the multi culti bullshit finally spills over with open warfare in the streets of Europe, what then?

Will the US join the side of the "oppressed" moslems in Europe?
Will you join in that fight?
What if there is a draft to fight against the "rightist" in Europe that are forcefully removing the moslem insurgents?

It's almost as if Mark Steyn can see into the future.

Posted by: Rickshaw Jack at November 30, 2009 01:59 PM (Wagj1)

171 Generally speaking, it takes about 3 generations from poor impoverished immigrant to middle class.
It doesn't. It all depends on who the immigramts are. Some never move up the ladder at all.
For the vast majority of illegals, we're still on generation #1.
Studies have shown that second and third generation Hispanics do worse in several respects than the first generation, presumably due to the corrupting influence of he American welfare state and entitlement mentality.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 01:59 PM (RLIM+)

172 The problem with Mexican immigration is it's sheer size and illegality, not the Mexicans themselves.
No, it's both. Mexicans themselves bring certain attitudes and cultural prejudices with them, and they're not good ones. People are not fungible.

While i do agree that there are parts of the mexican culture, specifically siesta fiesta crap and other stuff, i think that can be assimilated out of them, but it won't be if they can live in communities filled with other illegals that just re-enforce the worst parts of their culture.

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 02:00 PM (wuv1c)

173 No, it's both. Mexicans themselves bring certain
attitudes and cultural prejudices with them, and they're not good ones.
People are not fungible.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 01:55 PM (RLIM+)

All cultures do. They can only maintain them with suffcient numbers though, and the help of useful idiots like the Democrats of course.

Posted by: Rocks at November 30, 2009 02:01 PM (Q1lie)

174 Making a big pot of spagetti sauce since 6am, I always make a huge pot to freeze in individual containers for future use, just thought I would mention that for you hongry folks, house smells like a Italian whorehouse!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:02 PM (BmbsW)

175 So when all the multi culti bullshit finally spills over with open warfare in the streets of Europe, what then?Will the US join the side of the "oppressed" moslems in Europe?Will you join in that fight?What if there is a draft to fight against the "rightist" in Europe that are forcefully removing the moslem insurgents?It's almost as if Mark Steyn can see into the future.
Interesting... I'm not sure what I'd do. If a war broke out i wouldn't want america to get involved
I'd bet there would be anti-rightist brigades, like there were in the Spanish Civil War.

Posted by: Ben at November 30, 2009 02:02 PM (wuv1c)

176 They are also coming into a corrupting welfare state. It is not the
same conditions. People don't immiigrate for freedom anymore. They
immigrate for the milk and honey...and govt. cheese.

I think this is the real problem. We don't have an immigration problem so much as we have a welfare problem. If we didn't have such a mollycoddling nanny state giving tax dollars away with no accountability, I don't think there would be a flood of immigrants from down south.

In some states, illegal aliens get to pay the in-state tuition rate at state colleges. I mean, c'mon, how effed up is that?

If you want you come here, work hard, and become an American, then great, more power to you. If, however, you want to come here, suck up welfare bennies, refuse to learn English, sit on your ass all day and wave the Mexican flag at sporting events, then f.u.

Posted by: OregonMuse at November 30, 2009 02:02 PM (6kI9E)

177 It's almost as if Mark Steyn can see into the future.
Posted by: Rickshaw Jack at November 30, 2009 01:59 PM (Wagj1)
Two schools of thought. Medieval blood letting, or a Caliphate. Those are, seemingly, the only two options for Europe.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 30, 2009 02:03 PM (dQdrY)

178 While i do agree that there are parts of the mexican culture,
specifically siesta fiesta crap and other stuff, i think that can be
assimilated out of them, but it won't be if they can live in
communities filled with other illegals that just re-enforce the worst
parts of their culture.

What in the hell do you have against naps, for crying out loud?

Posted by: FUBAR at November 30, 2009 02:03 PM (cPa0+)

179 But even at the ridiculously large numbers that Mexican's are immigrating here they are being assimilated.

You don't get to NYC, parts of Texas and LA a lot I guess.

Also, this wonderful assimilation must be why there were debates in Spanish during the primaries last year.


Posted by: DrewM. at November 30, 2009 02:03 PM (FCWQb)

180
I am sick of everyone having to "deal" with this Islamic shit. It
seems to me you come into a country to live and you basically do what
they do. If you don't like the culture of your new home, you get the
fuck out. Why in the fuck does everyone have to accommodate every damn
thing?

May I subscribe to your newsletter?

Posted by: Chuck Norris at November 30, 2009 02:04 PM (erIg9)

181 house smells like a Italian whorehouse!

What kind of spaghetti sauce are you making?

Posted by: fluffy at November 30, 2009 02:04 PM (4Kl5M)

182 An article I read earlier this AM, referred to an Iman that made a comment along the lines of - mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, and minarets our bayonets. At least he was honest.

Posted by: MDr at November 30, 2009 02:04 PM (ucq49)

183 Making a big pot of spagetti sauce since 6am, I always make a huge pot
to freeze in individual containers for future use, just thought I would
mention that for you hongry folks, house smells like a Italian
whorehouse!

What, you put fish into your spaghetti sauce recipe?

Posted by: OregonMuse at November 30, 2009 02:04 PM (6kI9E)

184 While i do agree that there are parts of the mexican culture,
specifically siesta fiesta crap and other stuff, i think that can be
assimilated out of them, but it won't be if they can live in
communities filled with other illegals that just re-enforce the worst
parts of their culture.

The problem is, it's seen as politically incorrect and racist to want them to assimilate. So there's no will from pols at all levels to force that assimilation and we end up getting "press 1 for english" and english/spanish signs and no id for voting and so on. Assimilation will never happen, so it needs to be cut off at the border.

Posted by: koopy at November 30, 2009 02:04 PM (XllG0)

185 I'm on flenser's side, but it could be worse. What if the Mexicans had a tradition of beheading people who disagreed with them? We're lucky that all they do is cut your lawn sloppy.

Posted by: FUBAR at November 30, 2009 02:05 PM (cPa0+)

186 @ 132

Give me a call when Iam able toerect a steeple in Riyadh.

Word.
Or a barbecue stand

Posted by: Mike H at November 30, 2009 02:05 PM (LdYLm)

187 In some states, illegal aliens get to pay the in-state tuition rate at state colleges. I mean, c'mon, how effed up is that?
I don't know if they changed it, but the policy a couple of years ago at Austin Community College was in-state tuition for illegals, but not for soldiers. Yeah, Austin, Tx. The San Fracisco of Texas. Run by assholes.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 30, 2009 02:06 PM (dQdrY)

188 once you move from the idea of a "melting pot" to a "multicultural mosaic"

I'm not sure the US has ever been a true melting pot. There are groups which have been here from the begining which still cling stubbornly to their own separate identity. And Europe, perhaps to their credit, never even gave lip-service to the idea.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 02:06 PM (RLIM+)

189 180,

Where would our Taco Bells be without them, btw I overheard an employee say they used canned meat, never again will I shop there!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:06 PM (BmbsW)

190 The world has turned on Switzerland, ostensibly over banking secrecy issues unmentionable here due to Godwin's Law. In point of fact, the Swiss were helping people to avoid taxes, and promoted firearms ownership and practice. This made them enemies of the liberal West. They're on their own.
The Swiss government will fold on this--must fold--because a sudden withdrawal of Middle Eastern assets from its banks would create what Kratos warns of.Absent international banking, it's SIG, Swatch, army knives and Toblerone--and cuckoo clocks, if you can believe Harry Lime.
Giuliani tore up Prince Bandar's check. Most cannot afford to do that. Keep this in mind as our diplomacy continues to get "smarter."

Posted by: comatus at November 30, 2009 02:07 PM (/VEEI)

191 Remember the Great Joo Migration of the early 1940s? We're still dealing with the consequences of that one. Poor illiterate criminal Joos everywhere, controlling our society and stuff.

Posted by: Charles Lindberg at November 30, 2009 02:08 PM (cPa0+)

192 I'm not sure the US has ever been a true melting pot. There are groups
which have been here from the begining which still cling stubbornly to
their own separate identity.


You're right, the Dutch Amish population in America gives lie to the myth of the 'melting pot'.

Posted by: DrewM. at November 30, 2009 02:08 PM (FCWQb)

193 I trust Oriana Fallaci is grinning.

Posted by: JiangxiDad at November 30, 2009 02:09 PM (pJ4NR)

194 What if the Mexicans had a tradition of beheading people who disagreed with them? We're lucky that all they do is cut your lawn sloppy.
If that was all they did I suppose nobody would have any real complaints about them. But they are both cause and symptom of massive corruption in all aspects of American life. In other words, we're becoming a lot more like Mexico rather then the other way around.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 02:09 PM (RLIM+)

195 194
I trust Oriana Fallaci is grinning.

I grin every time I hear her name.

Posted by: Connie Lingus at November 30, 2009 02:10 PM (cPa0+)

196 182,

HEY Hey! My Mom was born and raised in Rome, married my Dad during the good War, I have been taught well since I was born on how to make a skettie sauce. P!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:11 PM (BmbsW)

197 You don't get to NYC, parts of Texas and LA a lot I guess.
It really really differs depending on where you are. I lived in a border town for almost 4 years and it's amazing how we almost never had any of the problems LA has.
People worked hard, there were tons of small business run by 2nd and 3rd generation people, if not 4th and 5th genernation!
Operation Streamline made a difference in number of illegals and and also in the behavior of people: if a very bad thing happens to you when you get stopped for speeding or committing a small crime, guess what you avoid??
I used to groan when I'd get behind a car with plates from Mexico because they would be driving so slowly and carefully. Wasn't like that in Tucson, I'm told.

Posted by: Mama AJ at November 30, 2009 02:11 PM (Be4xl)

198 About every hundred coments, Drew, you say something intelligent. That's a piss poor rate, isn't it?

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 02:11 PM (RLIM+)

199 @195 Dude, flenser, I said I'm on your side. I was on your side last fall over at HotAir, and I'm on your side now. Peel that skin off sloowly.

Posted by: FUBAR at November 30, 2009 02:12 PM (cPa0+)

200 Two schools of thought. Medieval blood letting, or a Caliphate. Those are, seemingly, the only two options for Europe.

The problem here is that the US is fucked either way.

Medieval bloodletting: We will certainly get involved on the side of the moslems. As to the one of the reasons why, OPEC comes to mind.

Caliphate: Mass immigration to the US and Australia. All the lefties and whats left of their families trying to remake their socialist utopias where ever they end up.

Posted by: Rickshaw Jack at November 30, 2009 02:12 PM (Wagj1)

201 Quite frankly flenser, I'm more worried about the times you agree with me than the ones you don't.

Posted by: DrewM. at November 30, 2009 02:13 PM (FCWQb)

202 THE LEFT is for forced marriage, honor killings, and calls to prayer. Why is that?

Posted by: dagny at November 30, 2009 02:13 PM (4tf69)

203 I believe even Thomas Jefferson complained about the Amish, back in the day.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 02:14 PM (RLIM+)

204 OK, enough! Or we quit making hand-carved fake fireplaces.

Posted by: The Amish at November 30, 2009 02:15 PM (cPa0+)

205 See whatI mean Drew? Even your attempts at insult are pretty stupid.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 02:15 PM (RLIM+)

206 183
An article I read earlier this AM, referred to an Iman that made a
comment along the lines of - mosques are our barracks, domes our
helmets, and minarets our bayonets. At least he was honest.



And don't forget, "the wombs of our [Muslim] women will give us victory."

Posted by: JiangxiDad at November 30, 2009 02:15 PM (pJ4NR)

207 Oh and btw I'm still #1 on one of our teams on the pick 'em, so I can make skettie sauce any way I like!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:15 PM (BmbsW)

208 Oh come on, DrewM. flenser is not very warm and fuzzy, but he's dead on.

Posted by: FUBAR at November 30, 2009 02:16 PM (cPa0+)

209 I like Drew's posts most of the time so let's not eat our own K!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:18 PM (BmbsW)

210 house smells like a Italian whorehouse!
Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:02 PM (BmbsW)
I do not smell like 'Nam Grunt's spaghetti!

Posted by: Italian whorehouse at November 30, 2009 02:18 PM (Vu6sl)

211 208 skettie sauce

Dad? Is that you?

Posted by: FUBAR at November 30, 2009 02:18 PM (cPa0+)

212 What a better world this would be if Islam would just disappear. I applaud the Swiss people, but know this will probably not stick. The "elites" will overrule and Islam will prevail. It's the worldwide trend for whatever sick reason.

Islam is a cult, a political vehicle cloaked in religion. They are sick, twisted maniacs. I don't even believe much in the moderate Muslim. They are a blight on humanity.

Posted by: Twinks at November 30, 2009 02:19 PM (LeFbD)

213 No one can beat my Spa-peggy and meatballs. No one!

Posted by: Peggy Hill at November 30, 2009 02:20 PM (cPa0+)

214 The Hells Angels are just preparing themselves for the coming "Mad Max" scenario.
No buttsex for oil!

Posted by: Entropy at November 30, 2009 02:20 PM (IsLT6)

215 212,

Prolly, tell me what city you live in if I was there then it's a good bet that I am your Dad.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:21 PM (BmbsW)

216 I think our present circumstances in the USA are the very best example of this "the people can't be trusted" meme.

Posted by: rawmuse at November 30, 2009 02:21 PM (g03dw)

217 "But even at the ridiculously large numbers that Mexican's are immigrating here they are being assimilated."
The melting pot was purposely broken by the Left. Are you familiar with multi-culturalism or being proud of AND retaining your culture.
Down in Texas, most scoff at the low balled estimates of illegals in our state as well as the USA.

Posted by: MDr at November 30, 2009 02:22 PM (ucq49)

218 I don't believe I've ever called flenser stupid. Evil but not stupid.
Hint: when flenser is talking about unassimilated minorities who've been with us a long time, he's not referring to the Amish.

Posted by: David Ross at November 30, 2009 02:22 PM (9Sbz+)

219 Absent international banking, it's SIG, Swatch, army knives and Toblerone--and cuckoo clocks, if you can believe Harry Lime.

And chocolate. Don't forget the chocolate.

Also Roger Federer.

Posted by: OregonMuse at November 30, 2009 02:24 PM (6kI9E)

220 Hint: when flenser is talking about unassimilated minorities who've been with us a long time, he's not referring to the Amish.

Yeah but it's more fun to mock him than crawl into his personal pile of shit.

Posted by: DrewM. at November 30, 2009 02:24 PM (FCWQb)

221 216 Prolly, tell me what city you live in if I was there then it's a good bet that I am your Dad.

Nah. My dad is the opposite of a 'Nam grunt. He's a commie-lib collidge perfesser. Though my mom did like her some soldier meat.

Posted by: Peggy Hill at November 30, 2009 02:25 PM (cPa0+)

222 Ban Peggy Hill, she's using my ID.

Posted by: FUBAR at November 30, 2009 02:26 PM (cPa0+)

223 "Why should a country and society that has organized itself in a certain
way suddenly have to adapt itself because a group of immigrants bring
their culture and problems (from a Swiss perspective) with them?"

Exactly! You have a society that has been homogeneous for centuries, and things have worked out well for them. Suddenly you have 'immigrants' who want to 'change' things. Excuse me, but WHO'S COUNTRY ARE YOU IN? You don't like it, fucking LEAVE!

Posted by: GarandFan at November 30, 2009 02:26 PM (ZQBnQ)

224 222,

Awwwwww! I'm touched that your Mom liked Patriots!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:26 PM (BmbsW)

225 224 Excuse me, but WHO'S COUNTRY ARE YOU IN? You don't like it, fucking LEAVE!

Don't think we won't. You think these movies just make themselves, mister?

Posted by: Hollywood at November 30, 2009 02:28 PM (cPa0+)

226 226,

You mean 2012? That's a blockbuster right there if you listen to coast to coast!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:30 PM (BmbsW)

227 Liberals believe that science fiction books and movies are documentaries, those folks are so fucked!

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:31 PM (BmbsW)

228 160 -- and cue the "chaos" comment.
I'm with whoever above stated the moderate and progressive Muslims need to start policing up their own then, if they do not want backlash. It is ridiculous that a segment of this society cannot conform to the rules of said society (which everyone else has, by and large) -- I can think of only one other group that fits the description of "small segment of society, cannot conform to the rules of said society" -- and they are by law not allowed to get away with their nonconformity (unless you're Mike Huckabee). If the Muslims in this country (or other non-Muslim countries) wish to not appear similar to such a group (and there are many that do not and would be willing to follow societal rules/mores in conjunction with their religion) then they need to purge themselves of this element that would wish to marginalize them from within. I am tired of the weasel words coming out of many of them -- this is not a problem of racism, Islamaphobia persay, from what I have seen other people are getting well and truly sick of their domineering, bigoted, xenophobic, and (let's be honest here) for some of them, murderous/genocidal antics.
In short, clean up your business before somebody else has to.
Also, religious freedom? Ok, as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of, nor endanger other people. There's the crux.

Posted by: unknown jane at November 30, 2009 02:33 PM (5/yRG)

229 There's the crux.

Muslims don't like the crux.

Posted by: JiangxiDad at November 30, 2009 02:37 PM (pJ4NR)

230 They are sick, twisted maniacs.
They've been marrying their first cousins for centuries. As someone with family in Arkansas, I know what happens....

Posted by: dagny at November 30, 2009 02:39 PM (4tf69)

231 231,

What's wrong with second cousins.........hater.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:40 PM (BmbsW)

232 You don't get to NYC, parts of Texas and LA a lot I guess.Also, this wonderful assimilation must be why there were debates in Spanish during the primaries last year.


Posted by: DrewM. at November 30, 2009 02:03 PM (FCWQb)

If the illegal immingration is stopped it will happen at a much faster rate, but it's happening. You also have to deport a lot of people that would never have been allowed to immigrate here even legally. Leave the gates open and it's a different story. Do you think Laguardia gave speeches in English in little Italy? Don't mistake pandering for fundamental change.

Posted by: Rocks at November 30, 2009 02:40 PM (Q1lie)

233 A little Desenex works wonders on the crux.

Posted by: toby928 at November 30, 2009 02:40 PM (PD1tk)

234 Head in the sand?

Nope ... they are being up front about it. If you aren't willing to become Swiss, the Swiss don't want you as an immigrant.

This goes in hand with neighborhood committees voting down citizenship requests for things like lifestyle choices, and even asking applicants what soccer team they support for the World Cup ( note: it had better damned well be Switzerland's ).

You can bet the folks who want to put up these minarets are all resident non-citizens.

Fuck them ... they can always go back home.

Posted by: Kristopher at November 30, 2009 02:40 PM (Jjzb5)

235 228 Romulan Nero was Muslimesque.

Posted by: dagny at November 30, 2009 02:41 PM (4tf69)

236 I've always loved the Texan that owned land next to land the muslims bought to build a mosque so he proceeded to build a pig farm, the mosque was never built and they have to pay huge taxes on pasture that noone wants.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 30, 2009 02:46 PM (BmbsW)

237 Don't forget, each Swiss family has at least one military auto weapon. This has to be of concern to the elites. As it should be here as well.

Posted by: Barbarian at November 30, 2009 02:50 PM (EL+OC)

238 Now tell me, how many Christian Churches have been built in Iraq that has a Cross on top of the Church.We have how many troops in Iraq, and we cannot have even one church? Howmuch of our money has been used to support their type of Theocracy? Hundreds of millions... More moneythan that even?

Posted by: mystry at November 30, 2009 02:53 PM (kmgIE)

239 You don't get to NYC, parts of Texas and LA a lot I guess.
It really really differs depending on where you are.
Chicago is a big destination for illegals.
I know plenty of people who are whatever the hell they are of some hispanic persuasion, 3rd 4th generation or whatever... they're integrated. They're as "white" as I am whatever the hell that is.
The illegals? Ghettos. Spanish language billboards and licquor stores but taco stands instead of fried chicken.
Inconvienent and potentially racist truth - they're competing with the blacks (the ghetto blacks produced by the projects) for the neighborhoods that you don't go in and pretend aren't there.
I like mexicans.Not even the assimilated ones, I'veknown plenty of illegals and they're not bad people either. Frankly, I like the 1st generationpolka-music-listening toilet-paper-in-the-trashcan-tossing lawn-mowing sheetrockingno-habla-ingles-senor illegals much muchbetter then ghetto gang banger sorts, as far as impoverished ethnic ghettos goes.
And the food is much much better.
But that's 1st generation illegal.
You got some archetypal groups here. LEGAL mexicans, 1st andlater generations, illegal mexicans, 1st and later generations.
Legal mexicans - 1st generation is like any other immigrant, greek or polish orindian or whatever. Bilingual, obsessed with cooking gigantic homemade feasts eight times a day, and a few more kids then usual, but otherwise normal.
2nd generation and onward - assimilated.
3rd generation and onward - flunks Spanish 1 in highschool, thinks Taco Bell ismexican food.
Illegal mexians - 1st generation no speaky engey, minimum wage jobs, barrios with 15 to a single bedroom.
2nd generation and onward - assimilated.... into black ghetto culture. Latin Kings and ganbangers and ethnically segregated no-go areas with crappy jobs and tremendous crime, but with a spanish flavor.

Posted by: Entropy at November 30, 2009 02:56 PM (IsLT6)

240 They keep trying to kill my family. How welcome do they expect to feel?

Posted by: Mike Has-a-Been at November 30, 2009 02:59 PM (YZMy3)

241 #19, this has probably been answered a dozen times already but: World at War was a series of documentaries created in the late 40's and early 50's. As I remember them, they were generally good, given the technology and social climate of the time. Some parts were created during the war itself and spliced into the documentary, so they come off looking, at times, like war time propaganda. THere is also a certain political naivity about them that is charming - I'd recommend their purchase.

Posted by: rabidfox at November 30, 2009 03:05 PM (9EHKo)

242 The S will HTF in Europe first. Regular folks in Europe have a greater number of Progs in power to deal with, but even in Europe there is some S the regular folks will not eat. I have no doubt the war against Islam will begin there. When is unknown, but certain. And the outcome is also certain. Lots of blood, very quickly.

Posted by: dr kill at November 30, 2009 03:13 PM (KXVFz)

243 The Swiss people have spoken. If the libtards over there don't like, they can go pound sand in Syria and sing Alla Alla in come free there.

Next will be limits on muzzie immigration. Watch, the Swiss will be the envy of Western Europe within a year as the rest of the PC EU bend over and take it up the rear from Achmed and Ahmed.

Posted by: Sgt. Rock at November 30, 2009 03:14 PM (2jp4I)

244 I see that some have posted on the effect of illegals on the "culture" of various locales. I'm not sure if anyone has posted on LA, so I'll give my experience.

I've lived in both OC and in the Valley. In OC, I lived next to Santa Ana, which has one of the largest populations of illegals in the area. Here in the Valley, there are concentrations all over. Both areas have the same "feel." The illegals of these later generations, unlike earlier legal and illegal immigrants, aren't really interested in assimilation or becoming legal. It doesn't matter - they don't need it and, thanks to the conflagration of several other factors (including political correctness and radical activists), they are actually opposed to assimilation. Once the population reaches a certain level, there is no need to assimilate. One could come from Mexico, or any other number of South American countries, and never learn English or go to school, and still get a job, raise a family, etc.

There are dozens of Spanish language only channels on TV, nearly all of the AM stations are Spanish only, and there are several Spanish language news publications freely available.

I have a storage unit less than 5 minutes east of my house in the Valley. I pull out of the storage unit and turn left to come home. First thing I see? A large, white moving truck with the back open and, inside, a myriad of food/clothing/toy items for sale. Once, a local radio station had callers phone in with tales about how their neighborhoods are "going to hell." Basically, it was a run-down of how illegals move in and, suddenly, the neighborhood becomes a replication of Tijuana. One caller complained about neighbors down the street running a restaurant out of the driveway. Many complain about the chickens used for cockfighting, clothes, including underwear, hung up on tree branches and on fences instead of clotheslines, trash, music blaring, drunk driving, domestic abuse, pregnant school-age girls, etc.

Yeah, I know a lot of this sounds stereotypical, but I've seen it myself. Sometimes, leaving church, the family and I drive through such a section. We actually joke about spotting girls that look 15 or younger who are pregnant, have a kid in a stroller and another on the hand. Maybe the two aren't hers, but it's just as likely they are.

It isn't the skin color that's the problem - it's the culture the illegals import and, with the aid of the elements discussed hereinabove, retained through multiple generations. It's as if they want to escape the trash and horrors of 3rd world life and then, upon reaching this country, do their damnedest to re-create it. The politicians use them, inciting racial hatred (which often manifests in racially motivated gang-slayings, a big no-no in public discussions but which even the LA Chief of Police one, accidentally, admitted was going on).

Also, I'm sure many of you are aware of the Mexican Mafia's take over of several cities in states like CA, NM, TX, NV, and AZ. The use of illegals' votes is common-place, especially in local elections. La Eme usually sends in "decent" folk to establish local businesses (restaurants and tire sales are the usual businesses, I guess) and buy local good-will. Then, when there is an election year when a majority of city council is up for election (4 of 7, or 5 of 9, typically), they'll run 8-10 candidates. Half will be mudslingers looking to take out everyone not under the Mexican Mafia's control, while the others are "above the fray" and "respectable." The MM takes control of the city council (heavily relying on illegal immigration votes), fires all of the services they can (trash collection, etc.), hires their own people, and basically uses and entire city to launder money. And as bases of operation, etc.

I have a LOT of friends who are legal immigrants, and they are the most vocal about stopping the illegal immigration (in fact, some of them show outright hostility, *especially* toward those who are in the same liberal "rights group"). They agree - it is the culture, the lack of respect, the outright hatred of this country that many exhibit, that is the problem. This has nothing to do with skin color - it has to do with the fact that when a large enough group of illegals/legals become ensconced within a particular local, and you add virulent anti-assimilation advocates/feelings, and do nothing about it, you get a parallel culture that tares population centers apart.

I do believe that this is an actual problem.

the sinner,

Patrick

Posted by: Patrick at November 30, 2009 03:39 PM (0VqG0)

245 After the uprising of the 17th June

The Secretary of the Writers Union

Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee

Stating that the people

Had forfeited the confidence of the government

And could win it back only

By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier

In that case for the government

To dissolve the people

And elect another?

Posted by: mischief at November 30, 2009 03:46 PM (YBNwI)

246 "The country's system of direct democracy is sacrosanct. The people are allowed to vote on any policy and to propose policy themselves, which is what they did on minarets."
Are allowed. To vote. Interesting take on democracy the writers have there. Get this meatheads: In a democracy, the goverment does what the people tell it to do. The people rule. A governmentthat has the power to allow people to votehas the power to deny them that right. That's not democracy.
I'm actually glad to see this happen. Maybe they can make abargain -- open up all Muslime nations to ringing church bells and freedom of religion, and we'll let you build a minaret here.

Posted by: Satrboardhelm at November 30, 2009 04:17 PM (SgSfB)

247 The only possible way one could be "conflicted" about this - or anything islam - is to be so hopelessly affected by PC that you actually believe islam to be a religion. That a WOMAN refuses to summarily dismiss as garbage, this vile "religion", does not speak well for said woman.

Of all the serious shit out there in the big, bad, world today, none is clearer than the ruse of islam being a religion. Like lots of other PC-made problems, the PCers demand that you never see the big picture; that you see each and every act of insanity as it's own, little, isolated, original thang.

The West and islam are simply NOT in any way compatible. Anyone who fights that, in any way, is contributing to the problem.

Posted by: JS at November 30, 2009 04:26 PM (bMs0C)

248 "Also, I'm sure many of you are aware of the Mexican Mafia's take over
of several cities in states like CA, NM, TX, NV, and AZ. The use of
illegals' votes is common-place, especially in local elections. " Patrick #245

Interesting .. and after the next census, all those illegals will be counted (maybe more than once if ACORN runs the show) ... and the area will be assigned representatives according to total population, including illegals.

We are truly under siege ... with this and the other far left actions ...if 2010 is not a sea change, it may take another bloody revolution to root out the corruption.

Posted by: bill at November 30, 2009 04:29 PM (nUbAO)

249 Re:85
Hey, Entropy, clearly you failed history in school, but how did you happen to miss comment #2 ?


(sorry if this is a repeat--had to respond no time to read all the other comments)

Posted by: Johnny Smith's Mulligan's Mulligan at November 30, 2009 04:33 PM (Vz1WE)

250 I don't believe I've ever called flenser stupid. Evil but not stupid.

I'm neither evill nor stupid, David. I'm actually the best friend you've got. You just haven't realised it yet.

Hint: when flenser is talking about unassimilated minorities who've been with us a long time, he's not referring to the Amish.
Golly, who on earth couldIhave been talking about? Your raging paranoia and percecution complex aside, I meant African Americans. Jews are an interesting case, in that they used to be far more assimilated than they are today.

Drew offers his usual steaming pile of odure is his ongoing effort to be Allahpundit Lite. It's working well, Drew.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 04:39 PM (uQfes)

251 I wasn't joking about TJ, by the way. Or was only half joking. He did complain abot the Amish (among others) not assimlating.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 04:44 PM (uQfes)

252 Since when is a "religion" considered a race? Muslim, as far as I know is NOT a race.

Posted by: Timajin at November 30, 2009 04:45 PM (j/F2S)

253 Oh come on, DrewM. flenser is not very warm and fuzzy, but he's dead on.
I am too warm and fuzzy, not to menton soft and cuddly! Fuzzy Flenser, they call me.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 04:47 PM (uQfes)

254 There are groups which have been here from the begining which still cling stubbornly to their own separate identity.

That's not a problem as long as they can function in general society. ex. The Hasids, whom I have great respect for because they haven't compromised their beliefs, yet manage to function fine, with the inconveniences of holding those beliefs falling (largely) on their own shoulders.

Now, if part of someone's identity includes honor killings and shit like that, then they're going to have some issues.




Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 30, 2009 04:49 PM (EBhbA)

255 Hey, Entropy, clearly you failed history in school, but how did you happen to miss comment #2 ?
I ignored it.
Apache or no Apache, it was a continent of land up for grabs. Sucks to be them, but that's the way it was. It's irrelevant to my point.
And Apache or no, it was mostly empty and up for grabs at that. The indians certaintly treated it as up for grabs.
We can know this because at 300+ million people, huge portions of this country are STILL empty (albeit no longer up for grabs). And prior to 1492, estimates of how many indigenous were in North America range from as low as 8 million to about 60 million, 1/2 or 3/4 of which were in central America (Mexico) not the US (and then Canada). Meaning perhaps 10 to 20 million people in the US.
And that was BEFORE the european plagues hit, which after first contact, couldn't be avoided, and couldn't have been anticipated. They spread ahead of european contact and had a mortality rate comparable or greater then the Black Death, killing 1/3 to 2/3rds of the whole population, in some places as high as 90%.
Meaning... not very many Apaches.
Imagine this whole country being populated by only 5 or 10 million people. The population of New York alone.
And now imagine that also, alot of those people are nomadic, wandering around and (as I said, up for grabs)using land as they see fit as they come across it. Or fighting each other over it if they bumped into one another.
Most of it was basically empty.

Posted by: Entropy at November 30, 2009 04:56 PM (IsLT6)

256 That's not a problem as long as they can function in general society
That all depends. Society can only functon properly as long as the people in it have some consensus about the purpose of the whole thing. People who think the state should manage every aspect of human existence won't get along well with those who take a more limited-goverment stance, for instance. The problem goes beyond stuff like honor killings.

Muslim attitudes are incompatible with the American way of doing things. (By which I mean the conservative/libertarian way.) And the same can be said of Hispanics and others. That's not a big problem as long as these people make up a small minority, but we're moving past that stage.

Posted by: flenser at November 30, 2009 05:10 PM (Gzh0g)

257 "Never do an enemy a small injury."
"There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others."
Macchiavelli

Posted by: Tantor at November 30, 2009 05:19 PM (SWvPS)

258 Alpine ridgerunners are making us uncomfortable, they must be punished!

Posted by: Crazy-Swiss-cheese-loving-Mullah at November 30, 2009 05:44 PM (RxUMK)

259 "Minaret Ban Reaction: Swiss "Justice" Minister...The People Can Not Be Trusted"
You said it. They stink on ice.

Posted by: Louis XVI at November 30, 2009 05:45 PM (vupGF)

260 "My fear is that the younger generation will feel unwelcome," she said.

Good.

Maybe they'll take the hint and get their filthy asses out of Europe.

Hope that wasn't too... ins-s-s-s-e-e-e-e-n-n-n-n-s-s-s-itive!

Posted by: CoolCzech at November 30, 2009 06:21 PM (QECjC)

261 "Ahab, the Arab" by Sam the Sham and the Pharoahs

Posted by: Louis XVI at November 30, 2009 06:27 PM (vupGF)

262 The obvious solution is to ban or limit the immigration of Muslims. Islam is a vile and wicked creed from which no good can come unless its adherents ignore the example of its founder and ignore its teachings. Since in Europe no one is allowed to criticize Islam they are left with empty symbolic gestures such as banning minarets. When if left to their own devices they would have told the Muslims what they thought and the Muslims would be better off for having heard it.

Really, Muslims must be convinced to abandon their religion just as the Russians were convinced to abandon communism if they wish to become part of modern civilization. If they do not wish to be civilized then they should give back the trappings of civilization. The worst possible combination is modern technology in the hand of savages.

As an atheist I thought Ann Coulter was insane when she said we should invade and force them to convert to Christianity. But the more I learn about Islam and Mohammed in particular the more obvious it becomes that there is no solution that does not involve large numbers of people leaving the faith. Either that or the faith will have to change and remain Islam in name only.

Posted by: Voluble at November 30, 2009 06:44 PM (nZNTl)

263 When is the west going to acknowledge that Islam is not compatible with democracy and free societies? Islam is the equivalent of Nazism wrapped up in religious trappings and the left better start understanding this it is racist/homophobic/sexist in the extreme.

Posted by: Oldcrow at November 30, 2009 06:55 PM (xbOEE)

264 Am I the only person who chuckled a bit when I read the phrase "progressive islam"? Isnt that an oxymoron? Step 1 towards a progressive islam - leave your 3rd world, oppressive religion in the shit hole you are leaving. Its a shit hole BECAUSE of islam.

Posted by: Matt at November 30, 2009 07:01 PM (pvHxB)

265 flenser -

The tipping point doesn't have to be society-wide, if the country is big enough. As I posted before, this tipping point has been reached, a while ago in fact, in several communities across the Southwest. What is most interesting is the parallel between this sort of cultural saturation and that happening in Europe.

I can't remember where I first saw this, but, a few years back, there was a series of videos posted on youtube by a young man of Middle Eastern descent, who was not Muslim, who, for a program in Belgium or Germany or some other middle-European country, wore a hidden camera and entered into a local mosque. The community didn't have a lot of Muslims. However, upon entering this mosque, the undercover guy, not a professional reporter, was met with the usual host of statements about Muslims taking over Europe, the sale of pro-jihadi video tapes, etc.

Over the course of the videos that were part of the expose, I guess you'd call it, they talked about Germany and the honor killings and the silence around them. In fact, in one scene, the crew filmed an ad hoc memorial of flowers, candles, and pictures, etc., at the sight of a recent honor killing in Germany. The next day, the crew went back to get more footage as it had been raining during the first attempt. Everything had disappeared. Somebody didn't want the outside world to know what had happened.

One minister for the German government at the time openly expressed his concern that when a particular group of immigrants reaches a saturation point, there is a risk of assimilation ending for, as I described above, the group has the ability to become insular in several ways.

When dealing with the Amish or the Hasidic Jews, you're dealing with groups that can still operate within the country in which they reside. They have no problem with governing authorities and, when and if the time calls for it, will abide by the rules/laws of that country. They even have the ability to speak the language, etc.

The problem with insular communities is when you get cultures that are at odds with the nation the communities reside in. Like the Hispanic cultures here in the Southwest, there is an open scoffing at laws and cultural norms. This isn't, obviously, as deadly as Muslim communities achieving such population saturation levels, as Hispanic cultures aren't generally (and yes, I'm being a little sarcastic here) based on a religion that, at its foundation, calls for the elimination/forced conversion/subjugation of all non-believers.

Here's another example, to illustrate the spectrum of effect insular communities have on the surrounding society: there are also several Asian communities here in LA. I used to live in Huntington Beach, just across the 405 from Westminster, or "Little Saigon." The only "radical" move that ever came out of that community was when it passed a law saying that no Communist party members could legally enter Westminster. (Pretty awesome, actually. The law was passed to keep Vietnamese government officials from visiting). Yeah, like any other community, they had their problems. But, talking to substitute teachers who worked there, the reports were, again, pretty stereotypical. Students, generally, maintained a modicum of respect and worked hard. Unlike, I was informed, several of the surrounding school districts (which were mostly white and Hispanic). And, quite frankly, the assimilation rate in the Asian communities I've seen in LA appears, from my experience, at any rate, to much higher. The Asian communities tend to want to keep their cultures alive, but NOT at the expense of their children being able to work and function within the larger society. THAT is a goal I can appreciate.

So, it is a *cultural* issue, not a genetic issue. If you have a culture that is not only insular, but virulently so (systemic, I believe, in Muslim communities, situational - based on the elements I posted about earlier - in Hispanic communities), you start to have issues. It isn't just a matter of not assimilating, it is a matter of wanting the rest of society to conform to their insular community, to accommodate that community, to the detriment of the surrounding communities. Thus, illegals in the Southwest have no problem using emergency rooms as free clinics (you should hear some of the horror stores bandied around about that), they claim any and all government assistance available and rely on the fact that certain, liberal governmental entities will do nothing to prevent them, etc.

Muslims communities, of course, are potentially much more dangerous. Though, I should clarify this point: I don't think all Muslims are terrorists (that's like calling all men "potential rapists," as some feminists are wont to do). However, I do think the religion of Islam, itself, fosters violence. In fact, it is the only major world religion I know of that actually has *standing orders* calling for violence/subjugation/forced conversion against non-believers. (Yes, I have read the Koran and all four major versions of the Hadith). This is fundamentally different than any stories regarding violence in the OT or any Hindu sacred books, etc. Add to that the concept of taqqiya, that Muslims can lie to non-Muslims if they feel they are threatened, or may be, as Muslims, and you can see the confusion that any observer, casual, or not, might possibly experience regarding just *how* to approach this issue.

I guess there is a lot more that can be said, but I'm, again, just getting long winded. Forgive me.

the sinner,

Patrick

Posted by: Patrick at November 30, 2009 07:02 PM (0VqG0)

266 Matt -

This is the very thing that makes me sad. Think about this: in Islam, everything said *or done* by Muhammed, the last and greatest prophet, is tantamount to a proclamation of its propriety by Allah, himself. So, if Muhammed marries a 6-year-old, and consummates the marriage when she turns 9, that is the same thing as Allah saying "yeah, you can do that." Thus, the actions and sayings of Muhammed are the foundation of Islam, and they are so because they are incontrovertible.

So, progressive Islam has a problem. In order to be "progressive," and abandon violence, the Muslims desiring to do so would have to abandon some pretty straight forward commands from Muhammed as "wrong." But, if those parts are wrong, who is to say everything isn't wrong? It would be like telling a Christian "yeah, Christianity is cool, just lose that whole 'Son of God' thing." Well, that's the cornerstone of Christianity. Lose that, and Christianity is meaningless (as the old saying goes, Christ was either a madman, a liar, or the Son of God).

Same thing for Muslims - everything one believes is based on Muhammed being the infallible prophet of Allah. Sort of a super-pope, if you will. If you challenge one thing, you put everything at risk.

That's one helluva thing for a truly spiritual Muslim to face, and can only end in a crisis of faith. I don't wish that position on anyone, and pray for those who do face it.

the sinner,

Patrick

Posted by: Patrick at November 30, 2009 07:07 PM (0VqG0)

267 @267 Patrick
"Muslims communities, of course, are potentially much more dangerous."
Depends on how you define dangerous. Illegals constitute approx 25% of the "fed" prison population. They ain't there for jaywalking or violating our immigration laws. Murder, rape, assault battery, kidnapping, etc. No biggie based upon their "culture".
I seem to recall, that Anaheim, of Disneyland fame, is now a crime ridden barrio. Nope, got nothing to do with the exemplary culture from our southern border, that we should embrace.

Posted by: MDr at November 30, 2009 07:20 PM (ucq49)

268 When dealing with the Amish or the Hasidic Jews, you're dealing with groups that can still operate within the country in which they reside. They have no problem with governing authorities and, when and if the time calls for it, will abide by the rules/laws of that country. They even have the ability to speak the language, etc.

Patrick, I think there a distinction to be made between inward facing groups, such as the Amish and the Hasidic Jews, and outward facing ones. The inward facing ones just want to be left alone and otherwise are willing to go along to get along. Outward facing groups have the same group cohesion as inward facing ones but use it to try to alter the rest of society towards their own ideal.
But the size of the groups also comes into it. If the Amish made up 10% of Americas population they wouldbe more likely to flex some muscle.

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Posted by: jason at November 30, 2009 09:10 PM (CXrQF)

270 "Given Europe's history on (sic) conflicts involving religion and ethnicity, I don't think this will end well for anyone."

Wha wha what? It just might end well for the Swiss.

You sound like a liberal multi-culti. "Diversity is our strength." I don't worry much about multi-ethnic or multi-racial, but multi-culti leads to what we are seeing in France, England and Germany. Think Balkans, where all the participants were Caucasian.

Libs see everything in terms of race, color, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, income, etc. But they can't see the culturally conflicted elephant in the room.

Posted by: RTH615 at November 30, 2009 09:11 PM (Rytlc)

271 Re:256
Sorry, Entropy, I'm at work, so I can't respond quickly...
The continent was inhabited by people for thousands of years; it wasn't empty. Europeans came and stole the land from those living on it(and, yeah, it still "sucks to be them").Your calling your forefathers'use of the landsuperior to the Indian's use of the land is simply ethnocentric preening. What the Muslims are doing to the Europeans is the same thing the Euro's did to America ( Canada, Sth Am, Australia, New Zlnd, etc): Demographic Conquest. Your emotional attachment to the victors in the case of North America fuels your moral relativism, which in turn reveals your hypocrisy regarding the case of Europe.
So, is Demographic Conquest wrong or right? Shit or get off the Potomac!
...and

Posted by: Johnny Smith's Mulligan's Mulligan at November 30, 2009 09:14 PM (Vz1WE)

272 Americans didn't use "demographic conquest." We used military conquest. The American Indians eradicated at least two of the early colonies through military means. Americans and the English responded.

Only a morally bankrupt culture would allow itself to be conquered demographically.

Posted by: RTH615 at November 30, 2009 09:22 PM (Rytlc)

273 Never thought I'd see the day where the US was the world's pussy and Switzerland and Honduras would be beacons of democracy.

Thanks Barry!

Posted by: red speck at November 30, 2009 09:37 PM (/vfpn)

274 Wanted to see the perfect example of political Islam from over 5 centuries ago? The minarets around Hagia Sophia in Constantinople? They were added to the Hagia Sophia by the Muslim Turks after taking the city for Islam in 1453.

Adding minarets to a conquered Christian church is the symbol of Islam's victory over Christianity. You can bet the Muslims would add minarets to St. Peter's Church in the Vatican.

Posted by: Bob at November 30, 2009 11:10 PM (t2c/Z)

275 MDr -

I lived down the street from Disneyland for nearly two years. I wouldn't call the area a barrio, in any sense of the word. Anaheim proper? Maybe - but not like you think. In fact, it has a very fast-growing Muslim population. (My Godchildren actually grew up in the area and were happy to leave, to Long Beach of all places, not long after their son was born).

fenser -

True. However, I think the random crime that does affect people isn't as dangerous as specific, purposeful targeting of masses of individuals. That is my I said "more dangerous."

the sinner,

Patrick

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حب توبيكات رمنسيه مع صور رمزيه توبيكات للماسنجر توبيكات 2009 توبيكات حلوه.توبيكات ماسنجر صور ماسنجر هلاليه توبيكات نادي الهلال توبيكات هلاليه صور ماسنجر للهلال.توبيكات جروح توبيكات فراق توبيكات غدر توبيكات حلوه توبيكات للمسن توبيكات قويه توبيكات روعه توبيكات ماسنجر توبيكات جديده‏.توبيكات للمسن توبيكات حزن توبيكات دموع توبيكات المحبين توبيكات فراق.توبيكات للمسن توبيكات قويه توبيكات عزة نفس توبيكات فراق توبيكات للبنات توبيكات للماسنجر.توبيكات الاسرار, فهد المساعد, 2009.توبيكات ماسنجر توبيكات كرتونيه توبيكات كرتون صور ماسنجر كرتونيه توبيكات وصور رسوم متحركه.توبيكات ماسنجر توبيكات أغاني محمد عبده توبيكات أغاني أبو نوره توبيكات البوم محمد عبده.توبيكات ماجد المهندس توبيكات وليد العاطفه توبيكات عراقيه توبيكات الفنان ماجد المهندس توبيكات مسن.نكات لشهر رمضان ، نكات رمضانيه ، توبيكات رمضانيه ، توبيك شهر رمضان ، نيك نيم رمضاني.توبيكات شوق توبيكات وله توبيكات رمانسيه توبيكات اشواق اوبيكات روعه توبيكات حب توبيكات للماسنجر توبيكات حلوه.توبيكات عتاب توبيكات ماسنجر توبيكات حزن توبيكات الم توبيكات قهر.توبيكات البوم تركي توبيكات أغاني تركي 2009 توبيكات أغاني.نكات للمسن توبيكات منوعه توبيكات للعطله توبيكات حلوه للايجازه نكات لطلاب نكات روعه توبيكات للماسنجر نكات جديده نكات طلاب‏.توبيكات تخرج و نجاح توبك تخرج ونجاح توبكات تخرج ونجاح جديدة توبيكات عن النجاح و التخرج ملونه و حلوه بالصور و مع الصور للماسنجر و للمسن توبيكات بمناسبة النجاح و التخرج.توبيكات فنية توبيكات حب توبيكات جرح توبيكات مرعبة توبيكات ترفيهية.توبيكات للمسن توبيكات عن الاختبارات صور للاختبارات توبيكات جديده توبيكات حلوه.توبيكات أغاني الوسمي توبيكات البوم الوسمي - تضحك وانا لجلك اموت.توبيكات للمسن توبيكات خيانه توبيكات قويه توبيكات حب توبيكات فراق.توبيكات أشعار سعد علوش توبيكات الشاعر سعد علوش توبيكات أشعار 2009.توبيكات للمسن توبيكات الزمن الجميل توبيكات قديمه توبيكات ام كلثوم.توبيكات البوم عباس ابراهيم 2009 توبيكات اغاني عباس ابراهيم 2009 توبيكات مسن اغاني عباس ابراهيم توبيكات 2009 لاغاني عباس ابراهيم.توبيكات راشد الماجد توبيكات اغاني راشد الماجد توبيكات البوم راشد الماجد توبيكات اغنية كثر السنين توبيكات البوم راشد الماجد 2009‏.توبيكات ست الحبايب توبيكات للأم توبيكات روعه توبيكات للماسنجر توبيكات حلوهمسجات منوعة مسجات وسائط متعددةمسجات mms مسجات خليجيه مسجات جديدهمسجات حب مسجات اشتياق مسجات وسائط متعددهـmms مسجات شوق مسجات روعهمسجات فهد المساعد مسجات الشاعر فهد المساعد مسجات سعوديه مسجات حلوه‏مسجات البوم راشد الماجد مسجات وسائط متعدده مسجات السندباد مسجات 2009مسجات وسائط مسجات روعه مسجات جوال مسجات فراق مسجات الم مسجات حزينه مسجات قويه مسجات جديده مسجات فراقمسجات الشاعر القطري ابن فطيس مسجات ابن فطيس مسجات خليجيه مسجات روعهمسجات حزن مسجات فراق مسجات بنات مسجات حلوه مسجات منوعه مسجات 2009mms رومانسيه وحب رسائل وسائط حزينهمسجات و رسائل حب رومانسية 2009 - رسايل الحب للجوال رومنسيهوسائط أناشيد وسائط جوال صوتيه وسائط أناشيد فيديومسجات وسائط فيديو مسجات حب مسجات حزن مسجات روعهرسائل عتاب رسائل حب رسائل رسائل منوعه رسائل جديده رسائل غرام رسائل روعهصور وسائط مسجات طويله مسجات mms مسجات حب مسجات عتابمسجات غرام مسجات حب مسجات وسائط متعدده مسجات فراق مسجات منوعه مسجات حلوهمسجات وسائط أغاني احلام 2009 رسائل وسائط البوم احلام هذا انا 2009صور وسآئط روعه,وسآئط شوق,وسآئط منوعه,وسآئط غياب,صور وسآئط حزنمسجات حب مسجات حب وغرام مسجات حب 2009 مسجات حب قويه مسجات حب وغزلوسائط البوم الوسمي 2009 وسائط أغاني البوم الوسمي 2009 وسائط البوم مالك حلمسجات حزينه مسجات مبكيه مسجات وسائط مسجات فراق مسجات حسره والم صور مبكيه مسجات mmsوسائط للشاعر المبدع فهد المساعد‏(رسائل عيد الميلاد عبارات عيد ميلاد رسائل تهنئة عيد الميلاد مسجات رسائل عيد الميلادمسجات سفر رسائل للمسافر مسجات رسائل للسفر مسجات 2009 للمسافر مسجات 2010رسائل فرنسيه مسجات فرنسيه رسائل باللغة الفرنسيه مسجات باللغه الفرنسيهمسجات غراميه رسائل غراميه وسائط غراميه مسجات غرام رسائل غرام وسائط غرامرسائل صباحيه مسجات صبح رومانسيه رسائل صباح مسجات صباحيه مسجات صباحرسائل للتخرج مسجات للتخرج رسائل تهنئة بالتخرج مسجات تخرجمسجات وسائط مسجات حب مسجات فراق مسجات قويه مسجات هجر مسجات منوعه مسجات حلوهصور وسائط للنجاح صور وسائط للتخرج رسائل وسائط للنجاح رسائل للتخرجرسائل حب رسائل حب حلوه رسائل جديده حب رسائل حب 2010 مسجات حب مسجات جديده حبرسائل شعريه رسائل قصائد شعريه مسجات شعريه رسائل مسجات شعرمسجات وداع رسائل وداع وسائط وداع مسجات وداعيه رسائل وداعيه وسائط وداعيهوسائط رومانسيه mms حب وعشق وسائط شوق ~ مشتاق لك ياروحي وينك ؟‏مسجات mms مسجات حب مسجات غرام مسجات رمانسيه مسجات وسائط متعدده مسجات جديدهوسائط أغاني عبدالله الرويشد 2009 وسائط البوم الفنان عبدالله الرويشد 2009صور وسآئط روعه,وسآئط حزن ,وسآئط نصح ,وسآئط للجوالmmsمسجات نصيه مسجات قصيره لرمضان مسجات روعه لرمضان ,مسجات 2009 مسجات حلوه لرمضان مسجات منوعه لرمضان مسجات تهنئه لرمضان مسجات جديدهمسجات قصيره مسجات للجوال مسجات جديده مسجات لشهر رمضان المبارك مسجات 2009 مسجات رمضان 1430 مسجات جديده مسجات حلوهمسجات حلوهمسجات شوقمسجات للزواج ، رسائل للزواج ، مسجات تهنئه بالزواج ، رسائل تهنئه بالزواج ، وسائط تهنئة بالزواجمسجات اعتذار , مسجات اعتذار جديدة , مسجات اعتذار قوية 2009 مسج اعتذار, رسائل اعتذار, رسايل اعتذار, sms اعتذارمسجات أشعار حامد زيد ، رسائل قصائد حامد زيد ، وسائط أشعار حامد زيد ، وسائط قصائد حامد زيد ، أشعار حامد زيد mmsمسجات وسائط مسجات شوق مسجات حنين مسجات منوعه لشوق صور معبره مسجاتmms مسجات حلوه‏وسائط حب mms رومانسيه مسجات عشق وسائط غرام ~ أحبك يابعد عمري وعيني‏وسائط أسامي بناترسائل رومنسية مسجات رومنسية وسائط رومنسية رسائل رومانيسة مسجات رومانيسة وسائط رومانيسةوسائط 2009 ، وسائط mms ، وسائط رومنسيه ، رسايل وسائط ، وسائط ام ام اس ، وسائط حب ، وسائط عتاب ، وسائط شوقمسجات للعيد 2010 ، مسجات العيد 2010 ، مسجات للاعياد 2010‏رسائل وسائط للعيد Mms ، صور وسائط العيد ، وسائط للعيد 2009رسائل sms رسائل نصيه رسائل جديده رسائل ذوق ,رسائل تهنئه بعيد الفطر ,رسائل منوعه لعيد الفطر رسائل 2009رسائل حلوه لعيد الفطرمسجات نصيه مسجات sms مسجات قصيره لعيد الفطر مسجات تهنئه للاعياد مسجات قصيره لعيد الفطر مسجات جديده مسجات 1430 مسجات حلوه للعيد‏عبده 2009 محمد عبده واحشني زمانك شريط محمد عبده 2009مسجات وسائط مسجات روعه مسجات للامتحانات اكبر مكتبه لوسائط الامتحانات مسجات وسائط روعه مسجات للبنات مسجات لشبابوسائط للعيد ، وسائط عيد الفطر ، وسائط عيد الاضحى ، وسائط تهنئه بالعيد ، رسايل وسائط للعيد ، وسائط mms للعيدوسائط جوال للعيد 2009 ، رسائل جوال للعيد مصوره 2009 ، صور وسائط للعي009 ، وسائط العيد جديدهرسائل mms رسائل اسماء وسائط بأسماءمسجات للعيد مصريه مسجات مصريه مسجات عيد مصريه رسائل مصريه للعيد رسائل للعيد مصريهمسجات للعيد مسجات وسائط مسجات وسائط للعيد مسجات تهنئه للعيد مسجات حلوه للعيد مسجات وسائط لعيد الفطر‏وسائط عيد الفطر 2009 ، وسائط تهنئه بعيد الفطر ، وسائط العيد ، رسائل وسائط العيد ، وسائط عيد الفطروسائط صوتيه ، وسائط صوتيه للعيد ، وسائط صوتيه إنشودة تقبل الله ، وسائط صوتيه أقبل العيدمسجات وسائط مسجات حلوه مسجات تهنئه مسجات للعيد وسائط رسائل للعيد وسائط mms مسجات مسجات جديده مسجات2009 مسجات ذوق لعيد الفطررسائل وسائط للعيد مسجات للعيدمسجات جديده لعيد الفطر مسجات 2009 مسجات منوعه لعيد الفطر مسجات روعه للعيد مسجات تهنئه بعيد الفطرمسجات نصيه مسجات لعيد الفطر مسجات قصيره مسجات جديده مسجات2009 مسجات لعيد الفطر مسجات تهنئه بعيد الفطر مسجات حلوه‏مسجات وسائط رومنسية وسائط حب وسائط 2009مسجات حزن مسجات فراق مسجات ألم مسجات وسائط متعدده مسجات روعه مسجات تبكيوسائط صداقه ، وسائط للاصدقاء ، رسايل وسائط صداقه ، رسايل وسائط للاصدقاء ، رسائل أصدقاء‏مسجات وسائط متعدده وسائط الفنان محمد عبده وسائط واحشني زمانك وسائط ابو نوره 2009وسائط أناشيد ، وسائط اناشيد ، وسائط نشيد ، وسائط أناشيد إسلاميه ، نغمات أناشيد نغمات نشيدوسائط البوم محمد عبده 2009 رسائل وسائط أغاني محمد عبده وسائط البوم محمد عبده وحدكمسجات وسائط متعدده مسجات وسائط للبنات وسائط حزينه وسائط فراق وسائط حزت وسائط قويه وسائط فراق وسائط جديده وسائط منوعه وسائط حلوه للبناتمسجات عن الأب والأم مسجات وسائط متعددة mms مسجات بالعربي مسجات بالنجليزي مسجات حلوهوسائط اغاني ، وسائط اغاني ماجد مهندس ، وسائط البوم ماجد المهندس اذكريني 2009‏أغاني وسائط بدون موسيقى ، أغاني بأصوات شباب بدون موسيقى ، ويفات بأصوت شباب بدون موسيقىوسائط صوتيه ، وسائط صوتيه بدون موسيقى ، وسائط صوت بدون موسيقى ، وسائط فيديو ، مقاطع وسائط صوتيهوسائط mms + مسجات sms صور وسائط روعه وسائط خطيره وسائط حزن صور وسائط فراق وسائط منوعهوسائط صوتيه وسائط فيصل اليامي تحميل وسائط فيصل اليامي وسائط الشاعر فيصل اليامي وسائط شعريه وسائط منوعه لفيصل اليامي وساط جديده وسائط صوتيه‏(وسائط لأغنية بتمون وسائط أغاني اليسا 2009وسائط 2009 وسائط فيديو صور وسائط فيديو اكبر مجموعة وسائط اكبر مجموعة رسائلوسائط أغاني بصوت بنات ، أغاني بصوت بنات بدون موسيقى ، وسائط اغاني بدون موسيقىوسائط اغنية انا من حقي اغير ، وسائط انا من حقي اغير راشد الماجد ، وسائط اغاني راشد الماجد ، وسائط انا من حقي راشد الماجدوسائط أناشيد تحميل وسائط أناشيد فيديو وسائط أناشيد للتحميل وسائط فيديو أناشيد‏أغاني وسائط بدون موسيقى ، تحميل وسائط اغاني بدون موسيقى ، وسائط ويفات بدون موسيقىوسائط فيديو بدون موسيقى وسائط أغاني فيديو بدون موسيقى أغاني فيديو بدون موسيقىويفات بأصوات بنات ، أغاني بأصوات بنات بدون موسيقى ، وسائط بأصوات بنات بدون موسيقىتحميل وسائط صوتيه بدون موسيقى وسائط أغاني بدون موسيقى وسائط صوتيهرسائل رسائل وسائط للجوال رسائل وسائط mms رسائل وسائط متحركه رسائل وسائط متحركه mms 2009‏(مجموعة وسائط بدوون موسيقى (جديد)‏أغاني وسائط صوتيه ، أغاني وسائط صوتيه بدون موسيقى ، وسائط صوتيه بدون موسيقى ، ويفات صوتيه بدون موسيقى‏وسائط فيديو اغنية اذكريني ، وسائط فيديو اغنية اذكريني 2010 ، وسائط فيديو اغنية البوم اذكرينيوسائط عشر ذي الحجه ، وسائط يوم عرفه ، رسائل للحج ، رسائل وسائط للحج ، وسائط للحج ، رسائل يوم عرفه ، مسجات يوم عرفهوسائط فيديو آخر فرصة ماجد المهندس 2010 ، وسائط فيديو آخر فرصـة 2010 ، وسائط فيديو ماجد المهندس 2010وسائط صوتيه أشعار بدون موسيقى ، وسائط فيديو بدون موسيقى ، وسائط صوتيه أناشيد بدون موسيقىصور وسائط مسلسل عاصي ، صور mms مسلسل عاصي ، صور رسائل وسائط مسلسل عاصي
توبيكات ، أناشيد طيور الجنه ،قصائد كتابيه ، قصائد مسموعه ، خواطر ، قصص روايات ،أزياء ، فساتين ، مكياج ، خلطات ، تسريحات ، ديكور ، ديكورات ، حلويات ، معجنات ، نادي الهلال ، نادي النصر ، نادي الاتحاد ، سيارات ، موديلات سيارات ،أزياء ادم ، إنمي ،أفلام انمي ، صور طبيعيه ، سينما ، افلام ، مسلسلات رمضانيه ، صور فنانين ، صور ممثلين ، صور مطربين ، مسلسل عاصي ، زفات ، اغاني بدون موسيقى ، كلمات اغاني ، ماسنجر ، سكربتات ، ثيمات ماسنجر ، برامج للماسنجر ، صور ماسنجر ، صور بنات للماسنجر ، صور شباب للماسنجر ، توبيك ، نكات ، توبيكات اغاني ، توبيكات كرتونيه ، توبيكات ملونه ، برامج فوتوشوب ، خلفيات للتصميم ، صور للتصميم ، خامات ، فلاتر ، اكشن ،فلاتر ، سكرابز ، خطوط ، باترن ، فرش ، جلتر ، سويتش ، فلاش ، ملفات مفتوحه ، ملف مفتوح ، جوال ، برامج جوال ، ثيمات جوال ، العاب جوال ، بلوتوث ، نغمات جوال ، يوتيوب ، رسائل ،mms ، sms ، مسجات ، وسائط اغاني ، برامج كمبيوتر ، العاب كمبيوتر ، العاب بنات ، منتدى ، منتديات ، وتلومني فيك ، شبكة وتلومني فيك

Posted by: aseel at December 06, 2009 12:29 PM (Aolv2)

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ظپط³ط§طھظٹظ† -
ظپط³ط§طھظٹظ† ط³ظ‡ط±ظ‡ -
ظپط³ط§طھظٹظ† ط§ط·ظپط§ظ„ -
ظپط³ط§طھظٹظ† ط¬ط¯ظٹط¯ظ‡
-
طھط³ط±ظٹط­ط§طھ -
طھط³ط±ظٹط­ط§طھ ط´ط¹ط± -
طھط³ط±ظٹط­ط§طھ ط¬ط¯ظٹط¯ظ‡ -
طھط³ط±ظٹط­ط§طھ ط¨ظ†ط§طھ -
ط§ط²ظٹط§ط، ط§ظ„ط­ظˆط§ظ…ظ„
-
ط§ط²ظٹط§ط، ط§ظ„ط¹ط±ظˆط³ -
ط§ظ„ط¹ظ†ط§ظٹظ‡ ط¨ط§ظ„ط¨ط´ط±ظ‡ -
ط§ظ„ط¹ظ†ط§ظٹظ‡ ط¨ط§ظ„ط´ط¹ط± -
ظ„ط§ظ†ط¬ط±ظٹ
-
ط²ظپط§طھ -
ط²ظپط§طھ ط§ظپط±ط§ط­ -
ظ…ظٹظƒ ط§ط¨ -
ط¹ط·ظˆط±ط§طھ -
ط§ظƒط³ط³ظˆط§ط±ط§طھ
-
ط؛ط±ظپ ظ†ظˆظ… -
ط§ظƒظ„ط§طھ -
ط­ظ„ظˆظٹط§طھ -
ط§ط«ط§ط« ظˆط¯ظٹظƒظˆط± -
ط§ط·ط¨ط§ظ‚ ط±ط¦ظٹط³ظٹظ‡
-
طµظˆط± -
ظ†ظƒطھ -
ظ…ط¨ط§ط±ظٹط§طھ ط§ظ„ظٹظˆظ… -
ظ‚ط·ط· -
ط®ظ„ظپظٹط§طھ -
ظˆط¸ط§ط¦ظپ
-
ظ…ط³ظ„ط³ظ„ط§طھ -
ظٹظˆطھظٹظˆط¨ -
ظ…ط³ظ„ط³ظ„ط§طھ طھط±ظƒظٹظ‡ -
ظ…ط³ظ„ط³ظ„ط§طھ ظٹط§ط¨ط§ظ†ظٹظ‡ -
ظ…ط³ظ„ط³ظ„ط§طھ ط§ط¬ظ†ط¨ظٹظ‡
-
ظ…ط³ط±ط­ظٹط§طھ -
ط§ط؛ط§ظ†ظٹ ظ…ط³ظ„ط³ظ„ط§طھ -
ظ…ط³ط±ط­ظٹط§طھ ظƒظˆظٹطھظٹظ‡ -
طµظˆط± ظ…ط³ظ„ط³ظ„ط§طھ
ظ‡ظˆظ„ظٹظˆط¯ -
Hollywood -
ط¨ظˆظ„ظٹظˆط¯ -
bollywood
ط¨ظ„ط§ظƒ ط¨ظٹط±ظٹ -
ظ…ظ†طھط¯ظٹط§طھ ط¨ظ„ط§ظƒ ط¨ظٹط±ظٹ -
طھظˆط¨ظٹظƒط§طھ ط¨ظ„ط§ظƒ ط¨ظٹط±ظٹ -
طµظˆط± ظ„ظ„طھطµط§ظ…ظٹظ…
-
ط§ظپظ„ط§ظ… -
ط§ظپظ„ط§ظ… ط§ط¬ظ†ط¨ظٹظ‡ -
ط§ظپظ„ط§ظ… ط¹ط±ط¨ظٹظ‡ -
ط§ظپظ„ط§ظ… ظ…طµط±ظٹظ‡ -
ط§ظپظ„ط§ظ… ظ‡ظ†ط¯ظٹظ‡
-
ط§ظ†ظ…ظٹ -
ط§ظپظ„ط§ظ… ظƒط±طھظˆظ† -
ط§ظپظ„ط§ظ… ط¯ظٹط²ظ†ظٹ -
ظ…ط³ظ„ط³ظ„ط§طھ ط§ظ†ظ…ظٹ -
طµظˆط± ط§ظ†ظ…ظٹ -
طھظˆط¨ظٹظƒط§طھ ظ…ظ„ظˆظ†ظ‡
-
طھظˆط¨ظٹظƒط§طھ ظ„ظ„ظ…ط§ط³ظ†ط¬ط± -
طµظˆط± ظ„ظ„ظ…ط§ط³ظ†ط¬ط± -
ط¨ط±ط§ظ…ط¬ ط¬ط¯ظٹط¯ظ‡ -
ظ…ط³ط¬ط§طھ

Posted by: ظ…ظ†طھط¯ظٹط§طھ at May 14, 2010 01:33 PM (igoGK)

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