1 The mindset of the Urban Rat is everywhere in the MSM and Government.

Whatever they want is "just there". Food, clean water, sewers, plumbing, electricity, etc.

They are children in adult bodies.

2 Either die waiting in line or just crawl into bed and get death over with, coward!--Obama

3

The fact is, if you have insurance now, you most certainly will be loosing something under the Democrats

It's "losing."

Sorry, Grammar Nazi here.

4 Well, their plan won't even provide universal coverage, so it's not like even that goal would actually be realized.  So what's the point?

I mean, besides more control over your life.

5 That was Rush's theme yesterday; Liberals Lie. You are both right, they do. But they need a constant supply of gullible saps that will eat their lies. Don't be one.

6 Believe it or not, Robinson was awarded a Pulitzer last year for unfailingly republishing Obama campaign talking points word-for-word. Just by reading what comes out of the White House, you can accurately predict the subject of Robinson's columns.

7 See the Collectivist mind at work.

"We" spend too much money on HC.

Um, no. "You" steal too much money. You steal it and make it run government programs that collectivize what should be individual obligations.

"You" and your Socialism are the problem.

8

Uh ... huh. He can take his "rationing", fold it 'til it's all sharp corners and stick it somewhere sensitive. I'll be over here staying alive, thank you.

Firstsests?

9

The fact is, if you have insurance now, you most certainly will be loosing something under the Democrats

It's "losing."

Sorry, Grammar Nazi here.

God, that's one of my pet peeves. I think I love you.

10 I spent Saturday morning at the DMV and just couldn't help thinking how awesome it will be to fill out endless reams of paperwork, take a number, wait, move to one line, fill out paperwork, wait, go to another line - just to see a doctor.

11 So, by giving "free" coverage to a few, it will mess up the coverage for everyone, and indeed, lead to early death and denial of medical services.

I think the posters should now read:

Obamacare=Death

12 Our system already rations health care based on the individual's ability to pay.

Then everything in the friggin' world is rationed by liberal logic.

Drew, they've shifted from Universal Coverage to Cutting Costs when it was supposed to all be the same thing.  We would cut costs overall by covering everybody, bringing the non-payers into the system so they'd be less expensive.  Now they're trying to tell us that GOVERNMENT is the arbiter of efficiency and cost-effectiveness.  HAH!

Not to mention that forcing the Payers to cover the Non-Payers is exactly the system we have now, just without the government involved.  So we'll add a million bureaucrats (like Britain), politics, and it will get CHEAPER?  Only if you make fewer widgets, and that means fewer incidents of care...ie, rationing.

Of course, there has been no move toward Free Market reforms which would NOT create a bureaucracy but reduce it, which would provide incentives for MORE service, and DECREASE the cost-shifting that's the damn problem to begin with.  But Free Market reforms, while faster and easier to institute, don't empower government, so they're non-starters.

It's all about power and buying votes.

13 Drew M. - are you in Waco, too?

14

They still lie.

It isn't about expanding coverage, or cutting costs, or improving quality.

It is all about universal dependency upon government. They want to create a new "third rail" in politics. Once in place the new National Healthcare program will be like Social Security in political discourse... "touch it and die".

15 The mindset of the Urban Rat is everywhere in the MSM and Government.

Whatever they want is "just there". Food, clean water, sewers, plumbing, electricity, etc.

They are children in adult bodies.

That Obama, he have a big stash.

16

hmmmm sounds like DEATH PANELS to me.   so glad that Palin woman didn't know what she was talking about.

idiots.

17 First of all, ability or inability to pay for something is not rationing.

THANK YOU!!!!! I have this argument with lefties all the freaking time. They all insist that the insurance companies ration care. No, they ration their funds. However, if you want care that the insurance company says they won't pay for, you can still get that care. It will just be followed with a bill in the mail. Bottom line is you still have the option to have whatever treatment you want. You just have to come out of your own pocket for it.

18 never mind...that's the brand of the airplane. I'll slink back into my cave now.

19 Maybe we should call CW 2.0 the Host-Parasite War.

20 The other fault in liberal logic is that the pie is only so big and can only be divided so much. No consideration is given to the fact that history has proven that the pie can be made bigger and therefore yield more slices. If all you see are limits, limits are all you will get.

21 Thank you for swatting down this "rationing" bullstool. Even a reliably smart guy like Ed Morrissey peddles this nonsense. He always says the market already "rations" healthcare... Just in a different way, with one's wallet. It makes me want to bang his head on the fuselage of that airplane. "Rationing," it does not mean what he thinks it does..

22 The day will come when I am passed over for a mammogram so an illegal crimmigrant can get free dialysis.

23 Death panel. Saves money..

24

They are children in adult bodies.

Right down to the "Mommmmmmmm! He's not sharing and it's not faaaaaaaair!" whining. Funny how they're always so upset when someone demands they hand over their juicebox ...

25 In the US system, there is a theoretically unlimited amount of health care available, you just have to be willing to pay for it.

You've just the nailed the fatal flaw of the Democrat's health care reform; it isn't reform at all, it's simply more regulation. If health care is getting too expensive, that means demand is rising faster than supply. Therefore, real reform would involved increasing the supply of doctors, medicines, and hospitals. ObamaCare does just the opposite, it focuses entirely on demand.

The way to increase the supply of medical care is to lower barriers to entering the market. The government could help by lowering regulatory barriers, undertaking tort reform and subsidizing medical and nursing school educations to encourage more people and more companies to enter the health care business.

26

and you get to what is the meat and potatoes of the argument.  Capitalism rations resources based on money which is earned or given based on individual decisions on what is productive to society.

 

Socialism rations resources based on the concept that everyone is equal and deserves the same amount of resources. 

 

Socialism is the best system in a world with infinite resources.

Capitalism is the best system in a world based on finite resources.

Capitalism makes people become a net positive for society  socialism makes people do nothing. 

 

*yes I understand there are many more layers to the argument.  But in a nutshell 2 min speech this is the basics of the arguement 

27

Where to begin?  Here's a thought:  Eugene Robinson, despite his Pulitzer and his sydicated columnist, gets put at the back of the line when it comes to treating whatever diseases he'll suffer from as he ages.  If he dies painfully and far earlier then he would have with proper medical care, then the Collective will thank him and then forget him.

Bury him with his Pulitzer shoved up his ass.

28 Ed Morrissey peddles this nonsense. He always says the market already "rations" healthcare... Just in a different way

Doctor Zero is the only cure for Tweedledee  and Tweedledum's strange incoherency.

29 Great post, DrewM.

30

This ad hoc rationing doesn't work very well...

And now, Episode 435 of "Making Shit Up".

31 Once Robinson figures out he was being honest, he'll change his story.

32 So predictable. 

33

I am just surprised Eugene Robinson wasn't writing about race. Seems to be that's all I ever see him write about. Hmm I haven't and will not read this article but I would still put a dollar on him inserting race in there somewhere.

34 The honest solution is a word that cannot be spoken: rationing

So, in other words, some government committee or agency is going to sit down with a spreadsheet and figure out who gets treatment and who doesn't.

Hmmm...  Sounds like a "death panel" to me.

35
I am just surprised Eugene Robinson wasn't writing about race.

The 'boy' is implied.

36 I'm sure Eugene will jump right into the public option along with all of the other liberal elites.

37 Dang Straits @ 35 FTW.

38

The damn strangest thing just happened. I woke up this morning after a day of mescaline and poppers and I panicked thinking that I missed my deadline. The funny thing was that I did write and submit my column but I don't remember it.

I love it when everything works out. Excuse me while I give my pal Barry a call.

39

36

Hahhahahahahhahhahah. Funny stuff.

They think they will be able to go the Andi Sullivan route and call up the people in the administration they shill for and get strings pulled for them.

40 22 The day will come when I am passed over for a mammogram so an illegal crimmigrant can get free dialysis.

so true. Here in Atlanta, there is a lefty uproar because the large inner city hospital is closing its dialysis clinic due to cost over-runs. And guess what, they are whining because a number of illegal immigrants won't get their dialysis now.

I wonder what they got in their legal country?

41

I wonder what they got in their legal country?

Coca-Cola with real cane sugar in it! Once again, America fails on the world stage!

/whiny liberal off/

42 Bottom line is you still have the option to have whatever treatment you want. You just have to come out of your own pocket for it.

This is what's bothering me--wanting to keep your wages so you can spend them on your own medical treatment (or an airplane, if you have modest medical needs) is evil and greedy and immoral, but demanding a bureaucrat confiscate someone else's wages to fund your medical treatments is just being a good person.  That's so f-ed up.  I don't know how we devolved.

43

Variation on a theme:

...and even if thousands die, wouldn't it be worth it?

44

Coca-Cola with real cane sugar in it! Once again, America fails on the world stage!

/whiny liberal off/

Pepsi Throwback.  I don't know why it's not permanent. 

45 The system already does ration.
My father was rationed out of a $25K implantable defibrillator two weeks after Medicare paid hundreds of K for a new heart valve. The question is not rationing, but how do we decide? Leave it to the gov. and they will make decisions like the one I describe.

Doctors and Patients need to be the only two people in the decision loop.

46 Mr. Pink:

What did Andi Sullivan get?

(I had never heard of him until Sarah Palin was named as McCain's VP pick)

47 In order to cut costs the quickest I give you one word....

TORT REFORM! *



*channeling my inner Biden

48

God, that's one of my pet peeves. I think I love you.

Posted by: Joanna at November 24, 2009 11:08 AM (gJQTg) -

So Joanna, does this mean I should stop laying awake in bed at night thinking only of you ( well, and PGIS, and momma, and mandyp, and runningrn, and...)?

49

Instead, Obama is going to take services and money from upper income groups, those with insurance now and the elderly and give it to people who don't have coverage.

You are forgetting one other group - the young. In order for Obamacare to "work", private insurance companies are going to need a big ol' pool of customers who pay for the service but do not receive any care. That is the young. That is why you have fines for people who do not purchase insurance - to coerce the young into buying a product they do not really need.  

50 It is interesting that the first thing to go under Obama is preventive medicine. I mean if you start there, where do you from there.........?

51

46

He got off on a possession of marijuana charge by calling someone in the Obama justice department. Ace wrote about it on his site and linked an article.

52 3 months ago: There are no death panels. No rationing.

Now: Of course there will rationing.

Sarah Palin, you magnificent bastard.

53 Obama's Health Care Reform of course is a lie.  a BIG lie.  True reform would only need two things.  Tort reform, and checks and balances and real investigations about outright crooks for filing and or, overbilling on patients. They need a criminal invertigation unit.  Nothing as big and expensive as the FBI. Just investigative. Press charges, win a few cases, and see the difference. Ps  keep at it.

54

The way to increase the supply of medical care is to lower barriers to entering the market. The government could help by lowering regulatory barriers, undertaking tort reform and subsidizing medical and nursing school educations to encourage more people and more companies to enter the health care business.

Hear, hear!  And its time to tell the AMA your monopoly on medical school education will be ended today unless you revise your model. The model is based on the needs of medical system of the 19th century. In other words, no more artificial limits on the applicants, no more artifical limits on the number of schools and no more indentured servitued of your recent graduates.

55 There are clearly some reasons that cancer survival rates in the UK (as well as much of Europe) are significantly lower than they are here.  Why do we never hear about that?

56 so true. Here in Atlanta, there is a lefty uproar because the large inner city hospital is closing its dialysis clinic due to cost over-runs. And guess what, they are whining because a number of illegal immigrants won't get their dialysis now.

I wonder what they got in their legal country?

Posted by: negentropy at November 24, 2009 11:31 AM (27KAF)

The Atlanta story was the basis for my post!  Saw the story in NYT.

57

Hope is fading fast!  Tee shirt - led there by Instapundit

http://tinyurl.com/ylrqd3y

 

58 Instead, Obama is going to take services and money from upper income groups, those with insurance now and the elderly and give it to people who don't have coverage.

Fuck that.  ObamaCare is taxing and penalizing the youngest workers in the United States to guarantee delivery of 43 cents of every dollar collected by the Treasury to current retirees and the expected retirees over the next 10 years.

59 It can't be done (at least not by government fiat).

Drew; just one comment on that. Yes; it can be done but only for a short while. If the government does a complete takeover, which is what they are after, they can "give" health care at current levels to everyone.

They can do that by "eating" the system literally. Cut doctor's salaries by 75%, cut hospital charges by 75% etc.  They can "save" money in that fashion. The problem is the long and short term consequences.

Hospitals will go bankrupt and close. Doctors will pull in their shingles and go back to school to become parasitic lawyers so they too can feed of society's carcass as it collapses.

60 There are clearly some reasons that cancer survival rates in the UK (as well as much of Europe) are significantly lower than they are here.  Why do we never hear about that?

Posted by: Fortunate Son at November 24, 2009 11:45 AM (n2Ur6)

Cause they're too busy telling us how bad we suck according to the socialism-loving WHO.

61 I'm sure Eugene will jump right into the public option along with all of the other liberal elites.

That's the thing that amazes me. These libs push this stinking scow that is Obamacare as if they will be totally immune from its repercussions. Maybe they will be, who knows?

62

He got off on a possession of marijuana charge by calling someone in the Obama justice department. Ace wrote about it on his site and linked an article.

Posted by: Mr. Pink at November 24, 2009 11:42 AM (SqAkN)

He should have used the Barney Frank defense and avoided the whole thing.

63 "But, I'm not dead, yet!"

64 I find the most entertaining part of this whole health care "debate" is when you get a liberal obamadroid to claim that nationalizing medicine will make it cheaper and more efficient.  That's when the kicking starts:  bore in and ask them over and over if they really believe that, how they can say that with a straight face, how they can live with knowing they are repeating someone else's lies.  Not even the most braindead liberal can actually claim it's true, so they squirm and struggle and try to change the subject ("Palin!"  "Gitmo!"  "B-b-bush!").  Ignore that and keep them on the hook. 

Just be ready to protect yourself, because like all fascists they eventually turn to physical violence.

65 Hussein the Plumber

I must have one to wear on the streets of Cambridge.

66 And yet no one in the media is asking whether or not this whole thing is constitutional.

67 Relax. Everyone knows a government program never has cost overruns, burdensome taxes and always cost less than anticipated.

68

"Just be ready to protect yourself, because like all fascists they eventually turn to physical violence."

One can hope huh!

69

Relax. Everyone knows a government program never has cost overruns, burdensome taxes and always cost less than anticipated.

Over ever gets expanded way beyond its original intent.

70 Arguing with Eugene "Pullitzer for crying on Obama Election Night" Robinson is a LOT like arguing with a park squirrel: you may produce the most compelling argument imaginable, but the squirrel only wants to redistribute the nuts, from you to the disenfranchised squirrels.
If that's your game, play it with Eugene.
Otherwise, invest in a hungry terrier.

71

Hope is fading fast!  Tee shirt - led there by Instapundit

Notice how the copy below the picture manages to work in another jab at the Evil BOOOOSH.  It hast to be reflexive at this point.

72 the large inner city hospital is closing its dialysis clinic due to cost over-runs. And guess what, they are whining because a number of illegal immigrants won't get their dialysis now.

I'm guessing the inner-city legal residents who need dialysis aren't whining on behalf of the illegals.  But they'll continue to vote for the same lefties who sell them out for open borders.

73 Seniors are paying 20 cents on every dollar for medicine.  This is unsustainable. If you add me we'll wrestle control of these out of control cost increases.

74 One thing that I noted this weekend when the thread talked about the COLA built into the "penalty" in the Senate bill.

They will adjust the penalty upwards for inflation (which we will soon have lots of) but they are NOT going to adjust the definition of the "Cadillac plan" which will be taxed at high rates.

Also, Karl Rove was on Fox earlier showing CBO estimates of impacts on private plans if this bill passes. According to CBP the average plant will increase in cost dramatically, thus placing the average plan in the "Cadillac" region right off the bat.

This is nothing more than AMT all over again. The communists will do ANYTHING in their power to increase taxes.

75

Aside from the fact that the problems of our current health care system are totally ignored by this boondoggle of a bill (i.e. tort reform, lack of interstate competition, pre-existing condition denial), how can anyone possibly put a dollar value on a life? What if the cure for cancer is discovered in part by a cancer survivor? If they hadn't been treated, the cure never would've been found.

Maybe it's just me, but in hypothetical scenarios and in real ones, I'll err on the side of optimism and the potential for good in my fellow man every time.

We should do everything we can to treat and cure disease because we never know how many good things could come out of it.

76 Mission Accomplished!

Seniors are still paying 20 cents on every dollar for medicine and the cost overruns adjusted for inflation are a mere 165% more than projected.

77

Arguing with Eugene "Pullitzer for crying on Obama Election Night" Robinson is a LOT like arguing with a park squirrel:

We sir, are a lot more reasonable group and demand that you retract your slanderous statement immediately!

78 You are forgetting one other group - the young. In order for Obamacare to "work", private insurance companies are going to need a big ol' pool of customers who pay for the service but do not receive any care. That is the young. That is why you have fines for people who do not purchase insurance - to coerce the young into buying a product they do not really need. 

So, in other words, the young will have to pay what is, de facto, a tax. A health-care tax, as it were. Try to imagine how surprised I am.

79 Just be ready to protect yourself, because like all fascists they eventually turn to physical violence.

"Eventually"?

80 71 - I hadn't noticed that.  Kinda like H1N1 - everyone's catching it. 

81 Aside from the fact that the problems of our current health care system are totally ignored by this boondoggle of a bill (i.e. tort reform, lack of interstate competition, pre-existing condition denial)....

Oh they do plan to address those problems......after the government takes over completely.

First tort will be reformed completely. There will be no tort. You will not be able to sue government doctors. Second all health care will be a government monopoly therefore no need for competition or "profit".

And pre-existing conditions such as smoking, obesity, lack of exercise will be eliminated by government mandate.

82 The doctors don't want to actually cure anything. if they cure cancer, they lose their jobs.

83 Mallamutt wrote:
You are forgetting one other group - the young. In order for Obamacare to "work", private insurance companies are going to need a big ol' pool of customers who pay for the service but do not receive any care. That is the young. That is why you have fines for people who do not purchase insurance - to coerce the young into buying a product they do not really need. 

As far as I'm concerned, fuck the young.  66% of those  assholes under 30 voted for this chump and now they can't get jobs and those that do will be fined if they don't purchase a service that they may not want or need.  Great job dumbasses!

84

So, in other words, the young will have to pay what is, de facto, a tax. A health-care tax, as it were. Try to imagine how surprised I am.

Exactly. Why, because if you eliminate pre-existing conditions and you are required to cover everybody for everythingat a reasonable price, you can't stay in business.  But, since you can't raise your premiums to a point that it would cover your expensive treatment, the insurance company has to find someone else who will cover it. That someone else is the young who have much fewer medical care issues and are generally healthier. Thus, they also have less claims and less needs for money to be paid out by the insurance companies.

So, much like our current national debt, we have decided that the best way to have health care is to have our children pay for it.

In one generation we have gone from parents who saved the world for their children by fighting World War II to a generation of parents who are screwing the world for their kids because they do not understand the simple concept that you can not always have everything you want right now. We should be ashamed.

85

As far as I'm concerned, fuck the young. 

I find your views interesting and would like to subscribe to your newsletter!

86

As far as I'm concerned, fuck the young.  66% of those  assholes under 30 voted for this chump and now they can't get jobs and those that do will be fined if they don't purchase a service that they may not want or need.  Great job dumbasses!

A valid point. I suppose it is a good idea to teach the young that actions have consequences. Vote for an idiot, don't cry when it bites you in the ass. I am, however, slightly more concerned with the generation following this current lot, those kids now 8-17 for whom we are not only leaving a tremendous national debt they will be forced to pay off, but also now seem hell bent on leaving them the burden of providing all the medical care in the world to everyone but themselves.

87 Any "rationing" we have now is done at the patient and doctor level, exactly where it should be.  I want to make the decision to go forward with treatment based on my medical needs and financial situation, I don't need Big Brother's "help".

88

As far as I'm concerned, fuck the young. 

I brought the Jesus juice!

89 how can anyone possibly put a dollar value on a life?

People do it every day.  When you go car shopping, you can choose optional safety features if you think the extra money is worth it.  When the vet says "the surgery is $7k, ending his suffering is $250" people decide.  At the end of my grandmother's life, my grandfather paid cash for life-extending treatments Medicare wouldn't cover; other people pre-decide they'd rather leave their savings to their children than spend it on their own life and prepare legal documents before they get sick.  Other people leave their kids to freeze to death in the car while they drink to save $20 on babysitting.

90

Any "rationing" we have now is done at the patient and doctor level, exactly where it should be.  I want to make the decision to go forward with treatment based on my medical needs and financial situation, I don't need Big Brother's "help".

I have no idea where you get these crazy ideas. Please roll up your sleeve for your injection. You'll feel better soon.

91 3 months ago: There are no death panels. No rationing.

Now: Of course there will rationing.

Sarah Palin, you magnificent bastard.

Posted by: lorien1973 at November 24, 2009 11:43 AM (IhQuA)

"Death panels" is such an ugly phrase.  Let's call them "economic feasibility resource provider panels."

92 I'm still a little shocked by all this.

When the GOP-controlled Congress wanted to just CUT THE GROWTH of Medicare spending in order to balance the budget in the mid-1990s, the Democrats and the MSM went absolutely berserk with "Mediscare" tactics aimed at convincing elderly Americans that the Republicans wanted to see grandma and grandpa die in the streets.

Now, less than 15 years later, the Democrats are OVERTLY GUTTING Medicare by literally hundreds of billions of dollars. Polls clearly show that most of the public is against this attempt at "reform." And yet the response from the elitists has been: slavish support in the MSM, an endorsement from the AARP (!), and a Democrat and MSM-created meme that opponents of "reform" (i.e., conservatives and Republicans) are racists who want poor people to die, are in the pockets of the e-e-e-evil insurance companies, and are spreading lies in order to damage the President because they are a hate-filled right-wing fringe of militia lunatics.

This is the message that the Democrats and their allies in the MSM are spreading through the mass media. It is nothing but leftist agitprop. An editor at the old Pravda would blush. And yet here we are, in the United States of America in 2009.

I weep for the future.

93 And yet no one in the media is asking whether or not this whole thing is constitutional.
Posted by: Rickshaw

I am not familiar with this constitutional of which you speak.  Do you have a link?

94

"Rationing"

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

95 In other words, Democrats simply lie.

This.  It can't be said enough.

96 "But, I'm not dead, yet!"
Posted by: Your Grandma

But I thought I "visited" you in Hawaii.

97

Now, less than 15 years later, the Democrats are OVERTLY GUTTING Medicare by literally hundreds of billions of dollars.

Doubtful. Yes, the plan says that to finance Obamacare that Congress is going to cut 500 billion from medicare. But, those cuts are not automatic if Obamacare becomes law. Instead, it will be up to Congress to impose the cuts next year. Will they - hmmm, 2010 is an off-election year, the senior vote has a more significant impact in off-election years and medicare cuts are an issue that will drive seniors to the polls. 

This is why the CBO scores are an utter, complete joke. CBO is required to assume the cuts are made. But, it is left to our spineless, gutless Congress to actually make them. And, they won't. Which is why the CBO scores are laughable.

98 Mallamutt, I happen to have 2 children in the 8-17 year age range and I am terrified of what their future will bring.  My point was that the people most responsible for this nitwit being president are now being forced to pay for this debacle (along with the elderly and I couldn't find a breakdown on their voting in the 2008 election).

And I did laugh out loud at 85 and 88!

99

Funny, but when I was laying in the ER bed after my heart attack a few months ago, I told them I was unemployed, had no health insurance and no way to pay for anything they might want to do to me. Didn't matter at all, I got operated on the next day and was given the best of care. I'm here to testify because of that.

Biased? Just a little...

100 Medicare is already gutted by stealing services from doctors and hospitals with exceptionally low reimbursement rates. HMO and PPO's steal too.

101 Eugene Robinson is a regular on Hardball with Crazy Chris.  Making a fool of himself on a regular basis.

102 Check out Obama bowing to the Chinese on Drudge

103 But I still get my free healthcare, right?

104
Ho ho....

hey hey

Im real and Im here to stay!!

105

Hedgehog: Oh, I agree - the current crop of 20 somethings deserve a few years of pain for their rashness. To bad the rest of us have to suffer along with them.

However, I have always had this theory, and I guess I will have to wait until 2012 to see if it holds true, that the 2008 youth Obama vote was more of a fad than a truly transcending political event. I think some (certainly not all) of the youth vote for Obama was driven by the desire to hang with and be around the "cool" kids. "Everyone is going to the Obama rally, so lets go bro, maybe we can pick up some chicks" type mentality. In otherwords, Obama was the "New Wave Punk"/"Grunge"/Disco candidate of our times. Clearly, there was a significant segment that bought into Obamamania and believed it. But, I also think that atleast 50% of trend followers who wanted to get in on the "big event". Clearly, the youth vote didn't show up in New Jersey or Virginia, so we have to wait and see.

106 I wonder if allowing abortion in our great nation has anything to do with the acceptance of death when considering rationing. I would put money on pro-choice activists being more tolerant of premature death if it fits in the national health care scheme.

Ideology before humanity.

Life becomes cheap with the ideology of the left.

Is it any wonder Marxism and socialism is responsible for more deaths in our history than any other ideology?

107 OT - but on the upcoming Copenhagen (summit?) on 'climate change' is it a treaty that would be signed? Does that take a 2/3 majority in the senate to ratify or just simple majority? I can't remember and don't have my pocket constitution handy. tks

108 I am from there government and I am here to save us money help.

109

For all 27 years I've been in practice I've watched insurance companies scream about the high cost of health care, while raising their premiums to record double digit increases in profitability (annually for each of the last 27 years) and using some of the excess to buy your congressman and keep their territory market restrictions. Out of the other side of their mouths they're simultaneously reducing benefits across the board and increasing deductables. They've never lost a dime yet but they're supposed to be in the "risk" arena. There's NO risk involved in the way they do business. Seriously, *IF* any socialist Democrat ACTUALLY wanted to help the public (they don't) all they'd have to do is apply some of their "cap and trade" rules to the insurance industry and their greedy corporations. The actual reason for the current wave of "health care reform mania" is based on a Congress that has been paid off for 27 years by the insurance and trial lawyers associations. Well now Congress is getting greedy and want's the WHOLE pie to control instead of their annual pieces.

When Americans want to lower Health Care Costs, they'll have to address the insurance industry restrictions (open up interstate competition) and trial lawyers through tort reform (to lower litigation costs and prevent doctors from needing to practice "defensive medicine"). Until those two issues are addressed.....HC costs are going to continue to rise and insurance companies and trial lawyers are going to continue to point their fingers at otherwise innocent doctors.

110

Yet neither that or tort reform, another huge cost reduction measure, is on the table.

Tort reform is not going to have the impact many think it will. While it is important, it does not at all measure up to the largest issue you equated it to, that of competition.  Second to competition, is simply the way we as a country view health insurance.   Additionally, we need to get rid of Medicare and Medicaid.  These are effectively price controls, yet neither republicans or democrats or most anyone will admit to this. Tort reform would be a distant fourth in terms of cost savings.

There are some things I don’t think a lot of people realize.  Due to the wage controls set during WW2, employer’s had to find a new way to compete for the best and brightest workers. One of these ways was to offer benefits, namely health benefits. Prior to this, very few employers offered any sort of health benefits. The IRS ruled in 1943 that employees would not have pay tax on health insurance premiums paid by employers. This has had a devastating effect, and while the ruling seemed mundane at the time, it has shaped our entire system.  Think about this for a second. When you got to the doctor, you are not the customer. Why, because your insurance pays the doctor, not you. But in relation to the insurance company, you are not the customer either. The company you work for is because on paper and in the short run, due to tax legislation, it is cheaper for your employer to provide it for you. So basically, you have a whole society of people that don’t shop for their doctors or their health insurance that pays the doctors.   Simply put, a change in tax law could drastically alter the system over the long run.

A second very large problem is the fact that we as Americans are simply over insured. Think about this in relation to car insurance. Beside the notable fact that we as a society actually have incentives to shop for car insurance, we don’t have our auto insurance pay for things like preventative maintenance and gas. Do you think gas and oil changes would be more or less expensive if you had your auto insurance company mange the cost for you? But for health insurance we do. Insurance is for unexpected events, not to cover things like doctor checkups, flu shots, and teeth cleanings which are known when to be needed in advance.   This is a change that needs to be realized on the consumer end.

111 Then they found people weren't willing to give up their care and money for others.

How anyone can not just know this from observing the world around them is beyond me.

112 $48 billion was paid out last year in fraudulent Medicare claims, paid to fictional persons and companies. This money was dutifully paid out to whomever was on the letterhead by fat asses in swivel chairs in DC. After it was paid, the fraud was halfheartedly investigated, followed by arrests of the most stupid of the perps. If money savings were the objective, they might want to put the investigative aspects of Medicare payments upstream of the Accounts Payable, not afterward.

113 Meant to italicize that aas a quote: Yet neither that or tort reform, another huge cost reduction measure, is on the table.

114 you most certainly will be loosing something under the Democrats

Actually, that sentence works with either "losing" or "loosing".  "Cry havoc..."

115 Americans will need that colonoscopy after being screwed this much.

116

OT - but on the upcoming Copenhagen (summit?) on 'climate change' is it a treaty that would be signed? Does that take a 2/3 majority in the senate to ratify or just simple majority? I can't remember and don't have my pocket constitution handy. tks

2/3rds - but by all accounts nothing is going to get done at Copenhagen. Gee, I guess the Chineese and Indians aren't in as a big of rush to screw their economies are we appear to be in.

117 This is much easier then building camps or bombs.

118

Barry channels Qaddafi for state dinner - http://tinyurl.com/yho4644

Dinner list of billionaires and Hollywood celebraties will serve meals to thousands of unemployed Americans in act of selfless compassion.

That last sentence is a just a bit of literary license - won't actually happen, but they will be thinking about it... surely.

119 I'm pretty f*cking tired of Ferrari rationing their cars.  It is not fair that I don't have one merely because I cannot afford it.

120
Americans will need that colonoscopy after being screwed this much.


"Do we LOOK like MRS OBAMA????"

121 And yet no one in the media is asking whether or not this whole thing is constitutional.

Why does the media care?  That whole Constitution thing just gets in the way of making those mouth breathing plebes do what The Betters want. 

I flipped out at my doctor after VAWA passed and my doctor asked the questions about whether or not I was afraid in my current relationship.  I can only imagine what's going to happen when how fat I am is the government's business. 

122 Hey I was misquoted. I never said "The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them". I actually said "The stupid children of Capitalists will vote in the dope that will hang them."

123 119 I'm pretty f*cking tired of Ferrari rationing their cars.  It is not fair that I don't have one merely because I cannot afford it.

Posted by: jukin at November 24, 2009 12:29 PM (vkkNZ)

You should try stretch SUV limos. In fact, I drive in nothing else anymore.

124

Dinner list of billionaires and Hollywood celebraties will serve meals to thousands of unemployed Americans in act of selfless compassion.

Yet, no one will note how many homeless people could have been feed if Obama had just skipped the State Dinner and gave that money to a homeless shelter.

125

@116 Posted by: Mallamutt at November 24, 2009 12:28 PM (V9SYy)

That's what I thought. Thanks for the verification sir.

126 Dick Morris was on Hannity last night and was pretty optimistic about deathcare dying.  The new 38% lowest-approval yet is only going to get lower and he's just starting to roll out his ads aimed at young Obots.

127 Good analysis of cost drivers in health insurance premiums.

http://www.ahip.org/content/default.aspx?docid=25123

128 Sam: your statement that tort reform will not lower costs is both correct and incorrect. It won't lower costs directly. It WILL lower malpractice premium costs, indirectly lowering the cost of supplying health care. It will also reduce the need of doctors to practice "defensive medicine" wherein they order unnecessary expensive tests "to rule out" what would otherwise be an inconievable diagnosis from a minute risk.....THAT is a far higher health care cost than any current malpractice or fraud which both the govt. and ins. industries harp on daily as an unnecessary expense.

129 In one generation we have gone from parents who saved the world for their children by fighting World War II to a generation of parents who are screwing the world for their kids because they do not understand the simple concept that you can not always have everything you want right now.

This is NOT from the generation that came immediately after WWII.  This is from the generation that came after LBJ and his great society.  That is when everything took a wrong turn.

You have entire families who have never known anything but living off of the government tit.  The cities are full of them and they continue to vote in pure communist rulers who insure their housing and food are provided.

130 Well, maybe with rationed health care you'll be dead. But not dead-dead!

131 OT - but on the upcoming Copenhagen (summit?) on 'climate change' is it a treaty that would be signed? Does that take a 2/3 majority in the senate to ratify or just simple majority? I can't remember and don't have my pocket constitution handy. tks

2/3 Senate AND more recent court rulings have tightened up the ability to get around Constitutional Amendment by doing it via a treaty.

In short, treaties can no longer violate the Constitution. But then again, the Bambi crowd have ignored the Constitution since he took office so that will not be a problem.

132
I don't understand why 'saving money' is important. We export whatever debts we can't cover with the printing press.

133

because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse. That makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives.

 

Of course it doesn't save money. If it saved money the insurance companies would already be saving it. It costs money.

134 hip and knee replacements cost a lot of dough.  So does the AIDS cocktail.  Let's just move the clock back on medical care to 1969.  We'll save a ton.

135

Sam: your statement that tort reform will not lower costs is both correct and incorrect. It won't lower costs directly.

One Dentist:  I never said that.

 I did say tort reform would be distant fourth in terms of cost savings in relation to the other three items I mentioned.

136 Early screenings save lives, not money. 

I had surgery last week and had to go through an entire frickin battery of tests and X-rays for a simple out-patient procedure.  I had a similar procedure 10 years ago with only a simple blood test pre-op.  My insurance company spent a shit load of money to prove what I could have told them, I am a healthy 40 year old!

Pure defensive medicine.

137 Pure defensive medicine.

Yup. Fear of litigation is running our country into the ground.

138 Actually, other than the old and useless, it is the diabetics who are the defective genetic lines we need to eliminate.

139 Yup. Fear of litigation scum-sucking, bottom feeding shitbag trial lawyers is running our country into the ground.  FIFY

140 I'm with you Holdren...You know how much those fuckers cost us every year with their $50k foot amputations and all. 

141

The Left cannot help themselves. Once you think of humans as nothing more than bipedal animals, it is an easy move to deciding which animals need to be culled.

 

142 "3 The fact is, if you have insurance now, you most certainly will be loosing something under the Democrats

It's "losing."

Sorry, Grammar Nazi here.""

Actually, loosing could well be correct as "loose" can be a verb meaning to set free or unbind, as in, "I am loosing the hounds !"

Hence, if one now has insurance, one may be loosing the wrath of Democrats because one deigns not submit to their control, indeed, for daring to be insured one will almost certainly be causing to be loosed a torrent of stupid laws and regulations.

143 I was told there would be no requirement for proper grammer here if I participated.

144 So, if Obama's point is that some need to die because it costs to much to give them care, why is he expanding healthcare to those who will die without it?  Why not just leave things alone, since expanding access will increase cost?

145

The Democrat answer to some being able to get what they need is for all to get far less.

Reducing utilization is the ONLY way to cut costs, and anyone suggesting otherwise is a damned liar.

146 Hey all you pederasts! Katie Couric likes her colon scoped! I'd make an exception for her.

147 Second, Robinson's honesty contradicts something Obama has been using as a selling point for over a year, namely that testing and early diagnosis of diseases would save money.

And, I believe he said all decisions would be between you and your doctor.

148 I mean, besides more control over your life.

You don't mean the government might try to tell you what you can eat, drink or smoke since they are footing the bill for your insurance, do you?  That just doesn't sound like something they would do.

149 You have to admit, those baby boomers entering their Medicare years are not a very diverse bunch.  First of all, they are all old.  They are mostly white.  They tend to poll poorly for the current crop of Democrats.

Time to put a lid on them.  A "cap," if you will.  Diversity is our strength and this group of old folks only weakens us.

This argument works equally well for tax payer funded abortions, euthanizing the disabled and taxing the middle class.  But, somehow, it does not work for deporting illegals, reducing welfare benefits or ending affirmative action.

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151 "First of all, ability or inability to pay for something is not rationing."

And with this one line, Drew should give up any posting on economics until he has completed at least a high school level course

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