1
Diversity!

Besides, dissent is patriotic. If Hasan doesn't agree with the Iraq invasion, it's his right as an American citizen to do so. Just ask General Casey.

2 Maybe the government can come up with a new position so that the various heads of the various intelligence organizations can know what each other has learned. (I'm here to help.)

3 Kinda blows a hole in Chrissy's "we may never know" Major Jihad's motives dream sequence, doesn't it?

Treasurer of the Army, more zeros on those checks....stat.

4
It's not like the Army should have noticed anything wrong when Hasan repeatedly tried to have his patients charged with war crimes.

That's normal, right?

5

 also in link .....The e-mails will help investigators determine whether Hasan's alleged actions were motivated by psychological deterioration or inspired by radical religious views he found online and through e-mail exchanges with Aulaqi

sigh. c'mon!

6
There's really no difference between the military brass and the republican 'leadership'.  Nobody wants to rock the boat and lose this sweet gig.  Having all those troops make a big deal out of you daily is kinda fun.

7 But the consensus says it wasn't terror.
And just look at how that consensus on AGW is working out today.


Perhaps consensus is a problem?

8

The sources said the e-mail correspondence is particularly troubling because Aulaqi, who has been on the law enforcement radar for years, is considered by U.S. officials to be an al-Qaeda supporter who has inspired terrorism suspects in Britain, Canada and the United States

The e-mails were obtained by an FBI-led task force in San Diego between late last year and June but were not forwarded to the military

seriously wtheck

9 Has anyone seen my wall around here?

10 My take on this was that many folks had connected the dots, but no one with the authority to do something about it would do anything due to the threat of a career-ending PC investigation.  Setting aside whether the FBI should have alerted the Army to the threat (they should have), this doesn't actually absolve the army brass from its responsibility for allowing this to happen, does it?

11 I don't know about you all but I have complete confidence Togo West will come to the right conclusions.
/sarc

12 i had thought we had discussed a previous revelation that Hasan's fellow associates , pyschiatrists, and clients had spoken to higher ups that He was off and spoke radically? wasn't that withjin the military itself?

13 Hey why don't we elect a Muslim President. Then they will love us?

14 O/T:

The scum who murdered Border Patrol Agent Robert Rosas this summer was captured and pleaded guilty in Federal Court.

http://tinyurl.com/ygbcrct

15

sorry Cautiously you stated it better than i.

 lifts foot off your toe.

16 7 But the consensus says it wasn't terror.
And just look at how that consensus on AGW is working out today.

Perhaps consensus is a problem?

Posted by: Derak at November 21, 2009 02:17 PM (6lO4z)

To paraphrase Andy Jackson, "One man with courage is a consensus."

17 Carl Levin represents a state with a large population of Arab-Americans.  If he's willing to use the "T" word with respect to the Ft. Hood massacre, that's especially telling.

18

pinche migra , condolences for their loss. 

hopefully  a  somewhat just result for them.

19 I'm not defending the Army brass who ducked the tough decisions...but is there any doubt that an attempt to remove Major Jihad from the Army would have resulted in a huge, huge lawsuit? 

Not that the trade off wouldn't be worth it now, but I know some ACLU attorney's would have sold their souls to get such a case. 

So, that creates the context for how this problem is handled in the future, or even more likely similar situations evolving right now?

20

unbelievable….this bastard was sending money over to terrorist groups via the radical cleric back in late 2008 and early 2009 because he knew he was going to martyr himself.

and the FBI says the emails weren’t enough to detain him. and of course, we’re investigating hasan like its a crime, not terrorism.

pathetic.more from wapo:

Hasan’s contacts with Aulaqi were not publicly disclosed until after the shootings, which the cleric subsequently praised, calling the Army psychiatrist a “hero” in a posting on his Web site.

In the months before the shootings, the two discussed how Hasan could make several transactions of less than $10,000, a threshold for reporting to U.S. authorities, according to the source who spoke extensively. Hasan did not explicitly vow to fund terrorist activities or evade tax and reporting laws for contributions, the source said.

“I believe they were interested in the money for operational-type aspects, and knowing that he had funds and wouldn’t be around to use them, they were very eager to get those funds,” he said.

To date, investigators have not unearthed evidence that Hasan sent money to charities with strong or suspected ties to Islamist militant groups, but they are continuing to probe his financial dealings as one aspect of a many-pronged case, other sources cautioned.

The FBI obtained the e-mails pursuant to court-ordered wiretaps, according to a former intelligence official. After receiving a wiretap order, Internet providers generally set up accounts that allow cloned copies of e-mails to go to the government agency in real time. Stored e-mails also may be provided with a search warrant.

In this case, a first batch of Hasan’s e-mails was sent by agents in San Diego to the bureau’s Washington field office, where a terrorism task force began to assess them in December. But months later, additional messages emerged, according to government and congressional sources. Those e-mails were reviewed only in San Diego, where authorities determined they did not pose a national security risk. The FBI said last week, without going into details about the process, that “all of the e-mails were known.”

Hasan’s commanding officer ordered him to “pre-trial confinement” on Friday, John Galligan, the suspect’s attorney, said in an interview at his Belton, Tex., office. Galligan described pre-trial confinement as the strictest confinement in military court and said it usually means the suspect is locked in a military jail. Because Hasan is paralyzed and has substantial medical needs, Galligan said he will ask for his client to remain in intensive care under guarded supervision.

“He’s in a hospital bed,” Galligan said. “He’s not going to get up and walk away.”

In several of their applications for search warrants, authorities are approaching the matter as a regular criminal investigation rather than invoking special legal authority available in terrorism cases, the sources said.

21 Barry: Let's STILL not jump to any conclusions.

22 Jamie Gorelick could not be reached for comment.

23
is there any doubt that an attempt to remove Major Jihad from the Army would have resulted in a huge, huge lawsuit? 

Officers get up-or-outed from the Army everyday.  Hell we have 0-4's here that are getting booted out of the service.  I bet there was pressure NOT to kick his shitball terrorist ass out in the name of 'diversity' though.

24 "chatting up a spiritual adviser to al Qaeda. None. Zero. Zip."

maybe the iman had a really good hummus recipe

25

they spring into immediate action and confiscate my toothpaste at the airport because it was 1.6 ounces too large, this guy is emailing al Qaida and putting on presentations on radical islam right under the noses of everyone and they do nothing.

26 Everybody is F#%king Fired.

27 I applaud the restraint shown by Army leadership in this matter.

28 An excellent example of how political correctness will get people killed.

29 It amazes me that the same Army has men and women out there every day willing to put their lives on the line to do what needs to be done, but higher up nobody was willing to put their job on the line to do what needed to be done (get this P.O.S kicked out for the good of everyone).

30

Let's not jump to any conclusions until the rest of the sleeper's are activated.

31 This is worse than Pearl Harbor.At least at Pearl,they sent a telegram.

32 While they quibble over definitions of terrorism, his actions certainly constitute treason.

Do they have the guts to charge him?

*crickets*

33 We are dying from the inside out. Cancer is spread thru the whole gov't.

34 Was Hasan on the No-Fly List?

the list AG Holder wants to use to stop people from buying guns.

35 .memo to the FBI-There is NO reason for a serving member of the United States Army (or any American) to be chatting up a spiritual adviser to al Qaeda. None. Zero. Zip.

Not even a teensy weensy widdle bit?

36 Mentality of 9/10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1

37 Anyone want to start a 9/10 movement, or has it already started?

38

"Anyone want to start a 9/10 movement, or has it already started?"

______

@37 - Isn't that what the Democrat party is?

39

Devil's advocacy:

Is terrorism an act of war? Did Hassan commit an act of war?

Is it important, for the purposes of identifying terrorism, that an attack be coordinated with a larger war strategy? If not, and terrorists can appear spontaneously, then how does one distinguish between a genuine terrorist and someone going postal? Are the latter now terrorists too? If not, is the difference motivation? What motives are qualified to be labelled terrorism?

40

If an even safe ostrich like Levin is saying this, then it is acknowledged as terrorism - just not stated openly.

 

When a Carl Levin says "Yes, this is terrorism" then you know that they are frightened.  The politics of the damage-control team just became irrelevant to actual damage control.

41 As Thomas Joscelyn has been reporting (reporting...anybody remember that?) Awlaki, the cleric, is BFF with Moazzam Begg. Begg is, in turn, a headliner on the ACLU's blockbuster "Silent Voices From Guantanamo". Begg spent three years at GTMO. Begg was picked up for being in the wrong place (fleeing Tora Bora) at the wrong time (while the US Army was looking for its enemies fleeing from Tora Bora). He's a British citizen though, so we sent him home. Now Begg's singing Awlaki's praises, and having his d-ck sucked by the ACLU. Things are bad and they are getting worse.

42 If not, and terrorists can appear spontaneously, then how does one distinguish between a genuine terrorist and someone going postal? Are the latter now terrorists too?

Yep, they are.  That's the easy way to handle it.  If natives don't want to be classified terrorists, then they'll simply refrain from blowing shit up and killing people.  Its really isn't that hard.  I haven't blown any buildings or killed anyone domestically, and I've been on this planet close to a half century.  Actually its pretty easy to not be classified a terrorist.

The "larger strategy" you speak of simply distinguishes conspiracy from loner, it doesn't change the act.  As a practical matter for prosecution, the "larger strategy" adds a 15 year sentence for conspiracy and maybe a RICO charge if there was enough money involved to take that approach too.

The moment you try and make the law into a mind reader all sorts of legal problems crop up. 

43 Agree w/ Purple Avenger, but Marty's distinction isn't entirely meaningless. It's the difference between murder charges alone, and murder charges plus treason.

44 Let's see, Bush got hammered for 'failure to connect the dots'.  Let's see how Barry makes out in all this.  After all, hasn't this been "the NEW and IMPROVED Obama FBI"?

45

Devil's advocacy continued:

http://tinyurl.com/yjjzdnf

Northern Illinois, about a year and a half ago. Major school shooting, multiple dead and wounded.

If this CNN report is representative (and I have no reason to doubt that) then this incident was never considered an act of terrorism. The word "terror" appears no where on that page.

I don't recall ever reading of a school shooting or a workplace mass murder being refered to as terrorism.

It would appear that Purple Avengers (#42) contention that these types of incidents should be considered terrorism begins with the Fort Hood shooting. Am I wrong?

46 So he was emailing Rev. Wright?

47 Marty has heard of Timothy McVeigh?

48 Tim McVeigh.  US citizen.  Arrested in the US.

49

aurelius (#47) good point. Timothy McVeigh was labelled a terrorist. He may even have been debriefed by the military, I can't recall. His disregard for civilian lives in carrying out his attack on a government target certainly places him in the terrorist category in my book.

But he was investigated and tried by civilian authorities as a criminal. Where does this place us vis-a-vis the argument against trying KSM as a criminal defendant?

50 Where does this place us vis-a-vis the argument against trying KSM as a criminal defendant?

Nowhere. KSM is not a US citizen, was captured overseas, and planned, funded, and ordered the commission of a war crime against US citizens.

He is also guilty -- inarguably guilty -- of multiple crimes against humanity.

He deserves a long drop on a short rope, not a criminal trial.

51 McVeigh was a US citizen, Marty. There was nowhere else, and is now nowhere else, to try a US citizen who kills Americans besides US federal district courts. KSM is not a US citizen. We have options vis-a-vis foreign terrorists that we do not have vis-a-vis terrorists who are citizens.

52 Rob beat me to it, obviously.

53

Rob Crawford (#50) et al: So just to clarify, every act of mass murder is henceforth terrorism, and the qualifying distinction between which terrorist gets a trial and which gets a summary execution is citizenship?

If KSM had been a US citizen when he was plotting his attacks in a cave in Asia would he be more deserving of a trial now?

I would argue that KSM's actions do not constitute crimes against humanity for the simple reason that he didn't represent any recognized government, which seems to be the defining factor for that label.

54 aurelius (#51) On the other side of the coin then, if Timothy McVeigh had been an Irish national, he would have been whisked away to military prison for unlimited detention without trial? Somehow I doubt that.

55

There's a second factor, Marty. We were at war. If the IRA had declared war on the USA, and McVeigh had blown up the OK City federal building in close coordination w/ IRA operatives then yes, he would be eligible for a military tribunal. You are absolutely right in your suspicion that even had all of that been the case in 1994 (when McVeigh committed his terrorist act), he would not have been dealt with in a military tribunal. Bill Clinton-- who had at least two opportunities to take out UBL and would not pull the trigger-- was President, after all.

 

Moral of this story, Marty, is: Stop. You can't win.

56

If I may step in for Rob here:

Marty, do you know the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition? I doubt it. Nevertheless, let me point out that actin on behalf of a "recognized government" is a sufficient, but not a necessary, condition for committing a crime against humanity.

57

aurelius (#55): I'm not trying to "win" anything. I've published a post on my own group blog that is my own best effort to synthesize the argument against giving KSM a civilian trial. I'm not a liberal troll trying to stir up shit. I'm a conservative pundit in my own right (and a long time AoSHQ reader and lurker), and I want to discuss what I view is a problem of consistency among some commentators about how terrorism gets defined. I've come here to do it rather than writing a blog post because I wanted immediate reaction and feedback. Thanks for your help.

Now it occurs to me that Hassan's violence is in most respects a fairly routine mass murder (as inapt as that label may be). It doesn't appear to have the kind of careful pre-planning and coordination that are the typical hallmarks of a terrorism plot (including McVeigh's). There's no indication at this point that his email correspondence was specifically terrorist in nature, nor does it appear that he was ever instructed to carry out his attack by outside forces.

In all respects, it appears that up until this point these types of attacks, as atrocious as they may be, have been thought of seperately from terrorism. What makes this case different is the internal motivation of the perp, his personal set of beliefs. In other words, what makes this an "obvious" case of terrorism is that Hassan was a Muslim with a beef against US military policy before he shot up his workplace.

I want the conservative side of arguments concerning terrorism to be clear and consistent. When workplace violence is suddenly but "obviously" terrorism for the first time, and not coincidentally the brain-f___ed psycho who carries it out is found to be a radical Muslim with no known involvement in broader terrorist conspiracies, it makes it harder for me, as a conservative pundit, to make my arguments about why the "terrorist" moniker is something not related to specific religious beliefs, when all of the pages I link to seem to be making that inference.

58 aurelius(#56): Was McVeigh's crime sufficiently grievous?

59 the army has to save HAssan to hide their own sloppy non action

60 57 "It doesn't appear to have the kind of careful pre-planning and coordination that are the typical hallmarks of a terrorism plot "

Yeah. Other than the associations and correspondence, his behavior at Wally World, the weapons training reported (not something a psych resident would get), the deliberate selection of pistols with very high capacity magazines, the giving away of all his stuff, and deliberately going to an SRP site (not his "place of work", BTW) where he knew there would be large numbers of soldiers in close proximity, and blazing away yelling "Allahu Akbar", there is a real dearth of planning or anything to suggest terrorism.

61 Marty, you are projecting in a major way -

In other words, what makes this an "obvious" case of terrorism is that Hassan was a Muslim with a beef against US military policy before he shot up his workplace.

First, strike 'Muslim', replace with 'person';

Second, strike 'military', this is US policy,

Third, it was not 'his workplace', it was another activity's 'workplace' where he knew from experience that US Personnel would be jammed in elbow to armpit, dick to ass.

In other words, what makes this an "obvious" case of terrorism is that Hassan was a person with a beef against US policy before he shot up someplace jammed elbow to armpit with US Personnel.

Just like domestic terrorist McVeigh.

Do NOT be a 'concern troll'.

62

Mason Dixon (#60): Again, the associations and correspondence do not, as of yet, indicate planning or coordination. I'm not aware of a specific tie to Walmart and Google isn't bringing up anything. Please link. The weapons training would be convenient for a would-be terrorist, but I'm not sure you want to make the argument that any army officer interested in receiving extra training in weapons should be investigated as a potential terrorist.

The selection of pistols does indicate a modicum of forethought. Again, Klebold and Harris made these types of choices ahead of what is almost always labelled a "massacre" (the word "terrorism" only appears in the title of a scholarly work in the reference portion of their Wiki page).

What someone yells while they're on a suicide mission is, I think, irrelevant. Because again, I have and will continue to make the case that terrorism is not predicated solely or even largely on religious belief. I think more often religion is used as a convenient rallying flag for community organizers with broader political goals in mind. The IRA were nationalists who used Roman Catholicism for political ends. Etc.

So weapons training, weapons selection, and yelling only appear to indicate "obvious" terrorism here because a Muslim was involved.

I was intentionally avoiding the specifics of what part of the base Hassan attacked, preferring to think of the entire base as his "place of work" because to do otherwise opens this can of worms: what is the difference between a guerrilla and a terrorist? Is this a distinction that matters any more?

63 Forth, strike 'Hassan', replace with McVeigh;

Fifth, strike 'shot' replace with 'blew';

In other words, what makes this an "obvious" case of terrorism is that McVeigh was a person with a beef against US policy before he blew up someplace jammed elbow to armpit with US Personnel.

Makey sensey now?

64

Druid (#61): not a concern troll. Read back for an explanation. Also, not concerned in any way about your opinion per se. I'll stay unconcerned about you, you keep your impotent threats to yourself.

As I alluded in #62, attacking personnel stationed on a military base used to be thought of as a guerrilla tactic. This changed somewhat in 1983 with the suicide attack on the Marine barracks in Beirut, which was determined to be an act of terrorism because the Marines were attacked in their sleep. (What this says about Washington's surprise attack Christmas Eve against the British we'll just leave alone.)

The personnel Hassan attacked were awake and on-duty, but unarmed. (Clinton's fault, I'm aware, but we'll leave that alone too.)

Question: are all surprise attacks on unprepared military personnel stationed on military bases now acts of terrorism by default? Doesn't it imply that military and civilian targets are equivalent eg. civilian targets are equal to military targets?

65 Question: are all surprise attacks on unprepared military personnel stationed on military bases now acts of terrorism by default?

Like Pearl Harbor?

"Terrorism" - key component is non-state actors.

Enough Concern - Goodnight.

66 Druid (#63): You don't have to convince me that McVeigh was a terrorist. I've already agreed to that. You have to convince me that Hassan, McVeigh and KSM are all the same thing. I'm arguing that that is a very tenuous comparison that turns a useful term, "terrorism" into a garbage can perjorative that is being used on an hoc basis, and that lately it appears that what makes it "obvious" that someone is a terrorist as opposed to a one-off run-of-the-mill mass murdering lunatic is that the set of beliefs he uses to rationalize his lunacy are based in religion.

67 The difference between terrorism and mundane mass murder is that the terrorist has differences with government policy as (at least part of) his motivation.  So yes, Hasan's beef with US military policy is what makes his act one of terrorism.  But not his religion per se. Had he been a secular member of ANSWER or Code Pink he would be just as much a terrorist.

68

Marty-

Below is Title 18, US Code's definition of  "domestic terrorism". The only difference between it and the same code section's definition of "terrorism" generally is whether there's a state of war at the time. As this makes clear, the plain difference between he Columbine shooters, the VT shooter or any other random nutjob mass murderer and KSM, McVeigh, Hasan is that KSM, McVeigh and Hasan all wanted to influence the policy of the US government.

"the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—

(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.  

69 Druid (#65): Despite your unwarranted condescension you're making my point. These types of attacks weren't (to my admittedly limited knowledge) ever thought of as terrorism before 1983. And now they are. My question is, what impact does this have on trying to justify a different set of rules for someone like KSM, which is something I'm personally aspiring to accomplish?

70

@64's question, broken up, w/ answers:

 

"are all surprise attacks on unprepared military personnel stationed on military bases now acts of terrorism by default?"

That depends. Why did the attacker(s) attack? If it was to influence government policy, it's terrorism.

"Doesn't it imply that military and civilian targets are equivalent eg. civilian targets are equal to military targets?"

No. Civilian target or military target doesn't matter. Motive/intent of the attacker drives the definition of "terrorism", not the status of the target.

71

"These types of attacks weren't (to my admittedly limited knowledge) ever thought of as terrorism before 1983."

states Marty.

Let's broaden his knowledge: Google "Munich Olympics", Marty. Then Google "Baader-Meihof". Then Google "IRA". I think the description "terrorism" predates 1983.

72

Simon Oliver Lockwood (#67): So the bottom line is, the determining factor in what constitutes terrorism isn't choice of target, it's motivation? And the motivation is specifically related to a disagreement with government policy. I suppose I can live with that.

Now the problem is making the case that what KSM did was motivated by by his hatred of the US government specifically, as opposed to Western civilization generally. All of the arguments Mark Steyn et al have made seem prefer the latter explanation, and those are the arguments I agree with. Anyone care to tackle how sending jets into the World Trade Centre was an attack on the US government?

Also I still have a problem with the issue of nationality being a mitigating factor. It's been suggested that if McVeigh were a foreign national with ties to an organisation with greivances against the US he'd have been treated differently. What was left out was, whether or not in that case it would have been appropriate to give him a civilian trial. (I'll just assume that the related question of whether hypothetical US citizen KSM gets his trial is affirmative.) Anyone want to take a crack at whether an Irish McVeigh would deserve a trial any more than the real KSM does?

73

#72: Anyone care to tackle how sending jets into the World Trade Centre was an attack on the US government?

The attack on the World Trade Center was an attack on the United States -- to wit, a key symbol of the US economy,.  There were also two other targets that day:  the Pentagon, and either the White House or US Capitol.  I think those can count as attacks on the government, don't you?

74

 

Marty, you're either an idiot, a frauds, or a plagirist. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess the last.

"western civilization" is a conceptual abstraction, considered by philosophy. The US government is a political entity, regulated by law.  If KSM wanted to influence western civilization, he would have sent a paper to the Harvard Journal Of Philosophy. But he didn't. He wanted to influence the actions of the US government. So he sent planes into the WTC (and the Pentagon, remember Marty, that building where thousands of US Government workers toil daily?).

As to whether a hypothetical IRA member who attacked US interests in order to influence US policy would "deserve" a civilian trial ala KSM...that's a policy decision. Legally, he could be tried there or, if the IRA was at war w/ the USA, by a military tribunal.

75 62 Walmart - um, Wally World is Walter Reed, is the light starting to shine now ?

"What someone yells while they're on a suicide mission is, I think, irrelevant."

Then you are probably an idiot.

"Because again, I have and will continue to make the case that terrorism is not predicated solely or even largely on religious belief."

Ah, you are an idiot, no one else has stated that. It is, however, always ideological and political, and in the case of Islam, religious belief, politics, and ideology are inseparable.

"I was intentionally avoiding the specifics of what part of the base Hassan attacked, preferring to think of the entire base as his "place of work" because to do otherwise opens this can of worms: what is the difference between a guerrilla and a terrorist?"

Aside from your non-sequitur question, Fort Hood is 340 square miles, if you think that the whole place to include things like the artillery and tank ranges are part of his place of work too, you are either denser than depleted uranium, or obfuscating because you know you don't have a valid point (which is fairly obvious).

76

aurelius (#68, 70 & 71): Thanks for the info, particularly the Title 18 definition. That basically answers all of my questions. (How hard was that, Druid?*) I'm still a little hung up on the hypotheticals about how nationality affects whether or not you get a trial. (Full Disclosure: I'm not a US citizen, and I have no plans for committing domestic terrorism on future sojourns there.)

Replying to #71 in particular, my sentence you quoted was meant to specifically reference the Beirut barracks as a military target, so your other examples are not relevant to the point I was trying to make (now moot).

*And by the way, what benefit is it to anyone if you dismiss people you disagree with out of hand? Why the immediate leap to ad hominem? I came here to discuss a misconception I had, and I'm leaving better informed. How does that make me more of a troll than you?

Oh right, Ace of Spades HQ. I guess that makes me a moron for asking, and you, well, just a moron.

77

aurelius (#74): Plagarist? Where does that come from? Also, as per #76, I have considered the 9/11 attack to be an attack on us all, not just our American friends. Perhaps you're convinced that Al Qaeda isn't concerned with anyone but Americans, but I'm not buying that. People besides Americans died that day, and that act of terrorism had a deep impact on the way all of us go forward with our lives. (I last time I visited the US I didn't need a passport. No longer the case. We all miss 9/10.)

Mason Dixon (#75): Forgive my ignorance. I'm not used to referring to places deserving deep, heartfelt respect by ridiculous nicknames. Everything I said at the end of #76 applies to you too.

78

aurelius(#74, addendum): "deserve" in scare quotes? A civil trial presumes innocence, has strict rules of due process and evidence, etc. A tribunal, I'm actually not sure of, but I'm guessing not so much. One process being more in favour of the defendant than the other, can we not speak of a person "deserving" one over the other? Is there a better word I'm overlooking?

I just thought of another hypothetical, Devil's Advocate type of question: let's say a drug kingpin orders a high profile hit against a prominent member of a community organisation that's trying to get rid of a bunch of drug dealers. Wouldn't that fall under the Title 18 definition of terrorism? If so, does that make drug gangs and the mafia potentially valid targets for anti-terrorism laws?

79 Let's see... part of the reason why the Sept 11th terrorists were able to effectively carry out their mission was because certain agencies either ignored (FBI) information or failed to share it with other agencies.  That was all supposed to be fixed, wasn't it?  And here we find the Fibbies sat on information and refused to pass it on to the Military so they could continue "watching" Hasan.  The Army doesn't have clean hands in this but the case can be made that the FBI shares responsibility for the deaths of those people in Texas.

80 One last thought: if the prosecutors can't present solid evidence of Hassan's involvement in a broader terrorist conspiracy, they're going to have a tough time convicting on terrorism charges. Without conspiracy evidence they're going to have to convince a jury that prior statements coupled with the Takbir form solid evidence of a terror motive. And the defence will reply with an alternative motive, that he'd simply lost it, that the Takbir was shouted out of stress, and that there is some other, non-terrorist explanation for his actions. Actually, he probably has a pretty reasonable shot at pleading temporary insanity.

81 One other last thought: why wasn't James von Brunn (the Holocaust Museum shooter) ever identified as a terrorist?

82 77 "Forgive my ignorance. I'm not used to referring to places deserving deep, heartfelt respect by ridiculous nicknames. "

Ah, just so, thank for confirming your concern troll status by automatically assuming "Wally World" is derisive - something only the leftoids do.

83

Marty, you're all over the place but let me take a couple of your points-

re due process guarantees of military tribunsals vs civilian trials: they're all but identical. It's a lefty assumption that military tribunals are summary courts, but leftys tend to be immune to facts and evidence. The major difference between a military tribunal and the civilian trial KSM will face is discovery. That is, in a military tribunal, KSM's military lawyer receives all classified evidence relative to the case. He or she evaluates it, but can't show it to his or her client until petitioning the judge and showing good cause as to why an accused etrrorist should have access to sensitive, classified national security information. In civilian coutrt, KSM like all other civil defendants has an absolute right to see all eveidence relevant to his case, regardless of classification. This is the great advantage of military tribunas from a national security perspective. Virtually every other due process guarantee, including and especially the presumption of innocence, is identical to civilian trial (in fact, some smart folks contend defendants in military tribunals enjoy greater protections than the run of the mill civilian defendant; I tend to agree but its a practical, as applied result rather than a technical, legal result so I won't push it). And the difference between a military tribunal and the court-martial Hasan will face is narrower still. So, abandon the dull lefty talking point that military tribunals are insufficient and inherently unjust. It reveals nothing but ignorance.

Regarding conspiracy and terrorism: they're two different charges. You're correct that the prosecutors may face significant challenges tying Hasan into a conspiracy to commit terrorism. They would have to show evidence of an agreement to commit terrorism, and at least one overt act on Hasan's part in furtherance of the conspiracy. The overt act part isn't hard (shooting up a room full of people is about overt as acts come), but convincing a jury that the letters Hasan wrote to Awlaki were more than fan mail will be tough. Latest reports that they wrote back and forth in code and talked money transfers, if true, help the conspiracy charge considerably though.

Terrorism, on the other hand, doesn't require a conspiracy.  There seems to be plenty of evidence, independent of whether Hasan was coordinating w/ al Qaeda reps or sympathizers, that he murdered US servicemen in order to influence the policy of the US government.

84 Also, the same evidence (letters in code re $ transfers to and from known AQ recruiter) that helps  a conspiracy to commit terrorism charge supports a treason charge. I'm very interested to see whether the prosecutors at Ft Hood bring a treason charge. There are a lot of very good reasons not to do it from a practical perspective. They have 13 clean, pre-meditated murder charges. They don't want to give the defense an opportunity to make the entire trial an academic bullshit session about the viability of treason. A battalion of law professors will come out of the woodwork as "experts" in constitutional law, and will all assert that "treason" doesn't apply in this case for some reason oir another. Nevertheless, as evidence mounts that Hasan was coordinating w/ Awlaki (and via him AQ), the moral responsibility to bring a treason charge increases.

85

Didn't get the memo?

This is the outcome of 6 years worth of Democrats and liberals going after people whom have attempted to protect us from these nutjobs.  And guess what, with promises to prosecute and to jail lawyers, interrogators and anyone who attempted to find these nutjobs and prevent such acts, what did we expect?  Faced with the distinct possibility of a horde of leftist descending on you and the MSM smearing you as the poster boy of the "Bush Cabal", it was better to just let the Islamic nut proceed on his merry errand.

And guess what else, America overwhelming agreed because they gave these Democrats, majorities in Congress and the Presidency.  So the Leftist have convinced Americans that we must simply accept a certain number of casualties or we are "letting the terrorist win".

 

86

"It's not like the Army should have noticed anything wrong when Hasan repeatedly tried to have his patients charged with war crimes.

That's normal, right?"

It IS the New Normal in the Army.

(sigh)

Hopefully ... THIS time it really IS "seared" into someone's "memory".

~(Ä)~

.

87

the brass is too worried about pot smoking and homosexuals serving in the military.  

88

Marty were born a FUCKING RETARD or did you use drugs to achieve you FUCKED in the haed status.

Muslim angry at US policy contacts and chats with Muslim Al Qaeda cleric,gives away his worldy possession, sends money to Cleric then buys guns goes to a busy offrice where he knew UNARMED people would be sitting ducks by the dozen.  He jumps on a table for easier aim and shouts ALLAHU AKBAR before shooting 40 people.

Again Marty take the dick out of you ass and explain how that is NOT terrorism.

Save your rhetorical put words in peoples mouth bullshit you fucking pussy.

89 Yes Sue, I'm sure the brass was busy discussing homo's and pot.    Another fucking RETARD heard from.

90

Marty is an example of "lawfare" using the law to wage war against the US.

Tim McVeigh was: (1) a US citizen, (2) was on US soil, (3) was captured on US soil after (4) blowing up a US building, which (5) was on US soil, and (6) the group he belonged to was not acknowledged by the US government as a foreign group at war with the USA, nor was it (7) considered an insurrection.

With all of that a military tribunal does not come into play, just federal courts under the applicable federal laws.  And, BTW, the State of Oklahoma could also have prosecuted Tim McVeigh for crimes under the laws of Oklahoma, starting from the reasons for the original traffic stop.

Other than bodycount, how does KSM actually compare to Tim McVeigh?

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I love how you assholes (you know who you are) have jumped to the conclusion that my questions are some effort to make a case against the US or the US prosecution of the war on terror. I did and still do support the decisions made by the Bush administration.

If you took the time to read this thread instead of leaping in with whatever crude slander pops into your otherwise empty heads, you might discern that the point I'm trying to get at is that "terrorism" has become a garbage can term that gets applied without any regard to what the word actually means. I suspect that most people don't care any more. At least, judging by your responses.

Mikey NTH(#90) unintentionally echoes my point: KSM and Timothy McVeigh are different cases that should be looked at in different ways, but they're both labelled terrorism as if they were the same thing. Is it useful to lump these things together? Would it improve the quality of our discourse to apply more selective terms to the various violent actions carried out by America's enemies? I think it would.

Having given this thread some thought while I was away, I think the term "jihadism" (as used by Allahpundit on Hot Air) is better than terrorism, when looking at KSM and Hassan as part of a continuum. The terrorism and jihadism are often assumed to be symonyms these days. Perhaps. I think jihadism is more precise. KSM organizes a large, brutal and historical attack against the US, with the intent and succes of fomenting global war against modern civilization, inspiring the likes of Richard Reid to try to blow up a plane, bombers to attack trains in London and Madrid and Hassan to take up arms as an individual. These are all different in scale and complexity and execution, but are connected by the notion of jihad.

On the other hand, the world's former largest terrorist organisation, the Tamil Tigers, while relying on the Tamil diaspora for funding, were not attempting to foment a larger war than the one they were already involved in. And they weren't trying to utterly destroy an entire civilization. They were secessionists trying to create a seperate country. Likewise, the IRA weren't trying to obliterate the British, they were trying to unify Ireland.

Why should the goals and tactics of KSM and the Tigers & IRA fall under the same definition?

94 Also -  you say terrorism is defined by motivation. I agree. Consider this: Timothy McVeigh was trying, in his twisted way, to make America a better place, a place more in line with his belief of what the Founding Fathers intended. Do you think KSM wants America to be a better place, that he's concerned it's not living up to what the framers of the Constitution intended? If motivation is the key to terrorism, does it give pause to consider how completely different these two motivations are?

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