1
Swift & Bold strikes again.

2 But you will get government sponsored medical care in prision - which is all we want, to insure every American out there.

3 If Dems are hellbound and determined to continue down this road (and all indications are that they will), this won't end well.

4 REVOLUTION!

5 Too soon?

6

The words of the speaker were obviously taken out of context.  Here is the full response:

The legislation is very fair in this respect.  SURRENDER, DOROTHY!!!

7
>>>Right out of the box they propose sending people to jail for acting as economic subversives and economic traitors...

or 'enemies of social justice.'

8

Once upon a time in America - you were free to speak your mind. You were only subjected to debate, and, if truly inane, scorn.

Now,you face prison time if you say the "wrong" thing.

Once upon a time in America - you were free to do with your money what you wanted. You could buy insurance, you could buy booze, you could spend it as you felt free to.

Now, you face prison time if you spend it on the "wrong" thing.

Once upon a time in America - you were free to eat what you wanted,

Soon, you will face prison time if you eat the "wrong" thing.

Once upon a time in America - you were free. 

9 How did these people get elected? Yeah I know. Gee I need a drink.

10 There should be covers for "Liberal Fascism" with Pelosi's face grinning her Botox-enhanced smile complete with a Hitler mustache. 

11
Prison Panel?

12 So much schendenfreude.

I have no idea how to spell it.

I know a bunch of libtard Democrats that won't spend the money for health insurance, and prefer to spend it on their boat or other toys. Obamacare was going to be their savior, the one thing that gave them everything at a cost of nothing.

Now... if they don't pay for something... they go to jail.

HAHAHAHA!!!

13 >>On a personal level, I go 'round and 'round with myself as to whether Nazi imagery is "civil" or helpful, politically: On one side I know for a fact that socialism tends in this direction. Every. Single. Time.

Duh.
It was called "National Socialism" (ie NAZI) for a reason.

14

Buy Health Insurance to help the State, comrades!

Else be sent to Federal Pound-Me-In-The-Ass prison. 

15 8

Once upon a time in America - you were free to speak your mind. You were only subjected to debate, and, if truly inane, scorn.

Now,you face prison time if you say the "wrong" thing.

Once upon a time in America - you were free to do with your money what you wanted. You could buy insurance, you could buy booze, you could spend it as you felt free to.

Now, you face prison time if you spend it on the "wrong" thing.

Once upon a time in America - you were free to eat what you wanted,

Soon, you will face prison time if you eat the "wrong" thing.

Once upon a time in America - you were free.

America has just been read her LAST RIGHTS.

16 This sucks. It should be a crime to be Pelosi ugly then.

17 And no. . .even though the Nazi party emerged out of a socialist movement, its generally politically counterproductive to call socialists Nazis (no matter how much truth there is to that categorization).

I don't think labelling individuals like Pelosi "fascist" is out of line, though.

18
YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A THREAT OF IMPRISONMENT IN THE CAP & TRADE BILL?

I do.

19 I wonder where "non-insurance buyers" will rank on the prison bitch system?

20 This is a double-whammy for the self employed.  If you bought your individual policy this year, it gets voided, and you have to buy through the exchange, which won't exist until 2013.

So I guess I have to go to jail until 2013 to get my healthcare, and then when I get out I can buy some with the income I no longer have from the business that my prison sentence destroyed.

Hope and Change!

21 So libtards how do you like your "free healthcare" now?

22
"Health care" would be followed closely by "Food care". Don't eat the Frito if you can't dial Chico's (Bail Bonds).

23 Round up the Hobos!!

24

Those who fail to purchase the state insurance are wreckers and will be reeducated.

The good part is throwing around the term "wrecker". I never thought I'd get to do that outside of having my car towed.

25 18
YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A THREAT OF IMPRISONMENT IN THE CAP & TRADE BILL?

I do.

NO.

Cap-n-Trade WILL however be used to confiscate your land for the greater good.

26

It's because you're a knucklehead! KNUCKLEHEAD! You've reified the concept of law and order into complete and total garfoolenurky! HATERS!

27 Why not just imprison people who show up at a hospital and don't have insurance? Oh wait, that wouldn't be as fun, I forgot.

28 I am frightened of my Gov.
Encourage ten people to vote.

I (heart) M&M's

29

The prison system, of course, will not be affected.  Yes, the prison system that the liberals claim is overcrowded and filled with those who engage in victimless crimes.

All of those who dare to not buy health insurance will go to jail and fill the cells formerly holding those drug users, who the liberals will release because drug use is a victimless crime.

Drug users = will vote Democrat more often than not

People not buying insurance = teabaggers who vote Republican more often than not

We are screwed.

30 Watch the video. Pelosi's attitude took my breath away. I'm shaking with rage. You will lose the right to NOT do something. It's not like car insurance where, if you can't afford it and thus can't drive a car, you can always walk, take public transit, etc. There is no escape. God help us.

31 well now that we have All found the same page and recognise it for what it is.. what are we going to do? Legally!

32
This so-called Health Care Reform Bill is nothing more than another federal tax.

33 In other news, the Obama Administration unveiled a new Cash for Clunkers program.

Consumers who still hold jobs are required to buy an American-made automobile.

Those who fail to purchase automobiles will be sentenced to prison.

Prison vacancies will be created for those newly convicted by releasing registered democrats, regardless of their crimes.

In a prepared statement, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said, "I think the law as written is very fair."

Asked if she intended to comply with the new program's requirements, Pelosi stated that "members of Congress will be specifically excluded from the program."

34 When a totalitarian like Pelosi says something along well totalitarian lines, I go buy some ammo and feel better. Try it, it works.

35 The economic is depend on the marchant.The marchant is depend on the buy and sales.This laptop battery is on sales.

36 Fuck Nancy Pelosi! Whatever form it takes, if that bill becomes law, I have no intent of supplying the government with any information about my health insurance. Any question regarding it will be answered in red ink with "NONE OF YOUR DAMNED BUSINESS!" Take me to court assholes. Or do you also intend to abrogate that portion of the Constitution which states that 'no man will be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process'?

37 I'll go to jail and fight it all the way up to the Supreme Court before I comply with this.  This is utterly fucking absurd.  I quite seriously cannot believe this was even considered.

I blame SCOTUS for this, I really do.  The expansion of the Commerce Clause to apply to every fucking thing under the sun is what makes this even remotely facially plausible.

38 >>> Socialism has almost never worked as intended, but rather creates new problems and new poverties and new ways to exploit the system (black markets, for one); socialism therefore always requires even additional laws against once-unobjectionable and perfectly-legal behavior. In other words, not only does socialism require a small buy-in, in the form of loss of freedom, but it is always accompanied by unplanned-for (?) additional losses of freedom to "correct" for all the systematic irrationalities and distortions it creates.

This demotivational poster that Instapundit linked today is very apt...

Concerning the Nazi imagery stuff:

I do think that it is a bad idea to start parading around with comparisons of the Donks to Nazis or Hitler for one very simple reason: the two are not comparable.  An excellent case could (and should) be made for how Socialism will always eventually tend towards totalitarianism and the atrocities that go with it.  I especially like the way that you break down the three basic steps of this process. 

However, the Nazis rounded up Jews and other unwanted citizens by the millions and exterminated them.  Are the Donks doing this or advocating for it?  The question of course is silly.  One might say that "secretly" they want to do this or other such posturing, but the fact is they are not exterminating millions of people.  This difference cannot be ignored, and fair-minded people who are on the fence will look at such comparisons with disgust.  (And rightfully so.)

39 we saw this with the takeovers of aig, banks, and Joe the Plumber was my clue, that left me crying my eyes out. now what

40 There should be covers for "Liberal Fascism" with Pelosi's face grinning her Botox-enhanced smile complete with a Hitler mustache. 

Posted by: Kratos (on the back of Gaia, scaling Mt Olympus) at November 12, 2009 02:14 PM (9hSKh)

Hey, I want mine on a box instead. We can call em' " Sheeties "

41 Delay.... delay.... delay.....

There's a reason the numbers on Pelosi/Obama care has been going down so much, and that is because people are finding out more and more that they don't like. No wonder Obama wanted this thing done back before August break.

42 The laptop battery is supple the energy for the laptop in order to visit this news.

43 Hmm, on the otherhand, if we imprision 10% of the population for not having insurance, we get unemployment down to .2%. We are on to something here people, something really big.

44 You're right, dog. Down at the bottom of all the slimy incorrect ideas beloved, believed and endlessly regurgitated by the Progressives and their pet media is this- that the pie is finite.

They insist that it must be taken from some to be given to others, and they are the deciders.

Just because they and no one they know ever created any wealth doesn't mean it isn't done every day by the rest of us.

Fuck them. I reject this thinking. Tell them to get a fucking job, or a second job if they want more pie. What are they doing between 11 pm and 7 am? Or on weekends? Fuck them.

45 Yeah, OK... we read about people like Ace in civics at Punahou, but we've learned plans, charts and Sick Sigma (rad edition).

46 Oh, and if they have this on camera or tape, this should be played on talk radio and political ads over and over and over... now. Don't wait for the election season, now.

47 And what is even better is that the left is equating joining Obamacare with the draft.

48 Oh oh oh oh oh here's a question - does this mean illegal aliens who show up at emergency rooms will now be sent to jail for not having insurance?  And if not, well, that's going to go over really really really well.

49 with the data coming out today and banks sending people on the circle jerk when they apply for mortgages, why is anyone surprised that mortgage applications are down.  People talk, word spreads.  They see that their friend with perfect credit had their mortgage commitment pulled at the last minute, so, they don't even bother looking for a house or applying for a mortgage.

Rumor has it that it is easier to get a mortgage on new construction so builders are actually clearing land and putting up new.

50 I would indeed like to purchase a supple laptop battery.

51

This sounds like a great reason for Gov. Rick Perry to tell obama to take his plan and stick it up his ass.

Any thoughts on how many states will stand up and reject this thing?

52 Those of you morons who will still be free please send me cigarettes in prison so I can buy favors.
Thank you in advance.

In all seriousness I want to weep.  I have a deep love for this country and I feel as if this government if cutting my heart out with a dull knife.

53 I will cancel my current insurance. I WILL NOT buy their insurance. I WILL start shooting when they come to arrest me.

54 Posted by: alexthechick at November 12, 2009 02:28 PM (h1WPo)

Have heard that illegal immigrants are going home where the economy is somewhat better along with Indian and Chinese engineer educated in US engineering schools.

55

elections have consequences -  being a liberal has consequences to our freedom and so does trying to act like one to get elected.

56
Meanwhile...

while our freedoms are being eroded and the Constitution is being shredded, the Republicans are still pussy-footing around Obama and still pandering for a big tent.

57 51

This sounds like a great reason for Gov. Rick Perry to tell obama to take his plan and stick it up his ass.

Any thoughts on how many states will stand up and reject this thing?

The pussies in my stae won't (Oregon)

58 You know, if they'd just enforce the immigration laws already on the books, much of this 'crisis' would evaporate.

But that wouldn't empower the State.

59 Socialism is merely a rest stop on the highway to Communism.

60 According to Pelosi, you are "born guilty"

61
I wonder if the new healthcare bill will cover spontaneous lead poisoning ?

62 Pelosi being blase' about jailing individuals who don't buy health insurance is the kind of crap that makes people hate their government.

Not good.

63 So how soon after this bill is passed before Texas says adios?

64 61
I wonder if the new healthcare bill will cover spontaneous lead poisoning ?

The kind of lead poisoning that occurs in the blink of an eye?

65 Dan-o, do you really want to wait until millions are dead before you worry that there might be a problem?  Obama's mentor Ayers has been perfectly clear about their intentions for 30 years.

Do you really think the people that chopped up 50 million American babies would hesitate to do the same to us, save for our capacity to defend ourselves (or more to the point, counterstrike)?

66 Crap. I don't like the way this is going. I guess I'd  better stock up on lace wigs, ugg boots, some of Jason's CD keys and now, for the first time, laptop batteries.

67 Ace just dropped a MOP on Hellcare. That was an awesome performance. +100000

68 Meanwhile ... smokers, such as myself, will be denied actual health care even though we will still be required to pay for the "insurance", and to pay extra through the insane taxes on cigarettes, while we won't be allowed to smoke anywhere (even in my own home).

Well, folks, this is what it's like to have a feral government.

69 We are creating an entirely new type of "crime" that could end up imprisoning millions

My rough calculations yielded about 2M who will choose prison because a few years in a Federal minimum security prison will be a huge relief from the "just getting by without government assistance" existence they're living today, because the forced insurance buy each year would put them into a slow spiral into genuine poverty. 

What the Obamunists fail to realize is there are some (a lot actually) Americans who still have some pride and don't automatically grab welfare even if they technically qualify for it.

More than anything else, this is a war on pride and independence. 

How many stories of people do you hear where they froze to death in their houses because they couldn't pay the heating or electric bill?  Happens all the time even though a phone call to 911 would have them in a warm place in minutes, or they might qualify for welfare, HEAP, or any number of other "government programs" that might keep them from freezing to death.

A few of these victims are simply batshit crazy, but many others are guilty of "crimes" socialist systems CAN NOT TOLERATE - those being of course pride and the fierce independence of not wanting to take assistance from the government.

70 34 >>When a totalitarian like Pelosi says something along well totalitarian lines, I go buy some ammo and feel better. Try it, it works.

I bought 1800 more rounds yesterday, my closet is literally overflowing with the stuff, and I don't feel any better.

71 And they're trying to purge all Republicans from the civil service. So when does the revolution start?

72 63 So how soon after this bill is passed before Texas says adios?

I would move there in a heartbeat and take my engineering knowledge and entrepreneurial ideas with me.

73 In one word...FRIGHTENING......

74 Think ju-jitsu here: Jail time is very worst thing they could have put in that bill. This is the thin end of the wedge...

...for the right. We will slaughter these assholes at the polls with this very issue. Count on it.

75

One of my favorite quotes on here was "I have 5000 rounds of Opt Out squirled away"

Herr Morgeholtz (spelling?) I believe.

76

Very well written, and I wish high school and college kids could see this, because most of them really don't "get" why socialism or communism would be a problem. Yes, they studied it briefly in class, but that went out the window as soon as the bell rang.

I have been debating back and forth with a local liberal columnist in our small town paper (she's a retired diplomat....no surprise there). She has been pushing all the talking points. Right after the election, she scolded her readers for making socialism sound like a dirty word, and now she is scolding her readers for daring to suggest Obama would have one socilist thought. Can you please come down to Texas and give her a good talking to?

77 I will NEVER buy their insurance.  They can try to take me to jail but a morgue will be my destination instead.  #53.  I stand alongside you!

78

Here is an excellent article in the WSJ that goes over the actual Bill and highlights things that are actually in the bill.  Scary stuff.  The woman who wrote the piece actually, you know, read the bill.

79

63 So how soon after this bill is passed before Texas says adios?

 

Soon I hope.....check out the headline over at Drudge.

80 guns are going to be a real burden on healthcare....they must be made illegal

81

When their Rube Goldberg system of cross-subsidizations and stealth-rationing produces a slew of irrationalities and evasions they did not anticipate, we will have a welter of new crimes to correct all that human behavior they now find constitutes bad economic hygiene and must be outlawed.

I've often said that trying to control the economy is as futile as trying to control the weather because the inumerable factors, the millions of individual economic decisions made hourly and daily by people all over the world, are no more controllable than the eddies and gusts of wind that end up creating storms.

And those foolish enough to try to control the economy will unleash a hurricane of inintended consequences. Of course, it needs to be noted that the same fools are trying to control the weather...er climate, as we speak.

We were  infected in the 1960's with a terrible affliction that I thought had passed but in reality had only gone into remission. It is now back, full blown and I fear that it may be fatal to us as a Republic.

82 Dan-O--

I can't bring myself to read it. I wouldn't be able to get anything done for a month. Plus, I would probably break all the fragile items in the house.

83 And speaking of a draft, that's probably coming back as a means to reduce unemployment. Get drafted, or join the civilian defense, public works, and thuggishness corps (THUGCorps). Guess which one most of the draftees will join.

84 For the first time since the civil war, you become an indentured servant upon birth compelled to pay tribute to maintain your physical freedom.

85 Please read this and pass it on:

Pelosi "Health Plan" Should Be DOA

Today at 8:40am

We need to be vigilant in investigating the ramifications of the Pelosi Health Care Bill. Some provisions sound so outrageous as to be considered impossible to fathom, but they’re right there in the bill in black and white. For instance, page 297 of the bill explains the punishment for not purchasing government mandated health insurance. If you don’t buy what the government considers “acceptable health care coverage,” you’re going to be hit with a tax of at least 2.5% of your income. And if you don’t pay that new tax, you could be fined as much as $250,000 and sentenced to up to five years in prison.

But here’s the thing: they have to make the penalty for opting out very harsh in order to force us to buy coverage. The only way to keep this government run health care plan afloat is for everyone to buy into it – especially young and healthy people. That means that they will have to penalize citizens if we choose not to buy a plan that will cost a minimum of about $15,000 per family per year.

The bill that came out of the Senate last month – the Baucus Bill – does just the opposite. It calls for a much lighter penalty ($750 maximum) for people who don’t buy government approved health coverage, making it cheaper to pay the fine than to pay for the coverage. (And with a recession on, who can blame families for not wanting to pay $15,000 for a government mandated health care plan?)

But here’s the kicker: the bill also forces insurance companies to cover everyone, regardless of pre-existing conditions. Think about what that means. A lot of people – especially young and healthy people – will just pay the penalty instead of purchasing coverage because they’ll figure that it’ll always be there if they get sick, as government has promised. That’s what will happen, and when it does it will totally undermine the very concept of “insurance” – which is basically a group of people pooling their resources over time to cover themselves for a rainy day, paying while they’re healthy so that they’re covered when they’re sick. Those who are healthy now pay for those who are sick. If your insurance pool only contains sick people, it’s a bust. And that’s what this government plan will be. Without all of those young and healthy people paying into the pool and defraying the costs, the government will have to pony up more and more money, and who knows how long the whole crazy plan will last before it goes broke – and our country with it!

That’s where we are with this bureaucratic mess: either the government penalizes people so harshly that they could be hit with huge taxes and even possible jail time, or the government makes the penalty a slap on the wrist and undermines the plan from the get-go. Forcing individuals to buy health insurance seems unconstitutional, yet Congress wants to foist it on us anyway. Proponents of government controlled health care will say, “But we’re made to buy car insurance and home insurance, what’s the difference with health insurance?” It’s apples and oranges. Auto insurance is a state law requirement, and people can always choose not to drive. Banks might require you to have home owner’s insurance, but again, you choose to own a home, just as you choose to drive. You have no choice at all when it comes to this federal government health care insurance mandate.

There are other ways to reform health care without violating our Constitution and our personal liberties. Let’s get back to discussing market-driven, patient-centered, result-driven solutions, like, for example, allowing people to purchase insurance across state lines, tackling existing government waste and fraud, and reforming medical malpractice laws (tort reform) to stop unwarranted lawsuits that force doctors to order unnecessary procedures just to cover themselves.

Please let your Senators know that the Pelosi Bill should be dead on arrival. Once we go down this big government path, it will be virtually impossible to reverse course. Let’s fight for the reform that makes sense for Americans before it’s too late.

- Sarah Palin

86 So how soon after this bill is passed before Texas says adios?



You know that email that went around a while back, proposing that the country split along North/South lines, and the South will keep the physicians, employed people, etc. while the North can have the community organizers, code pinkers, income redistributors?

I'm not so sure it was a joke.  I'm not so sure it should be.

87 Lawyer up now.

88

Seriously?  Why can't we just tell people who can't afford healthcare, that they can't have it?  Instead, we're going to require people to get insurance and if they can't afford it, they go to jail?

On the upside, it seems to me that this would have a greater effect on those who tend to vote democrat and with them all in jail, I forsee a future Republican sweep.

89 if this BS goes through I fully expect to witness the largest demonstration of civil disobedience this country has ever seen

90 Outstanding post, Ace.

91

But of course.  Honestly, Ace, what did you expect?  Obama and company NEED your health care dollars to buy votes, therefore they will take them.  They figure not too many people will actually go to jail, the threat will be enough.  And, once 12 million or so illegal aliens get health care via your money(followed by amnesty next year) they will have enough new democratic voters to stay in power forever.

That, of course, is what this is really all about.  Democratic vote-buying.

92 "So how soon after this bill is passed before Texas says adios?"

Interesting, this doesn't sound crazy anymore.

93 this morning caught a little bit of Beck.  He was mumbling something about the "death panels" having been funded and created already in one of the other legislation that passed.  He was saying this in the context of someone being told they could not have the swine flu shot and that they could appeal to some county board in their state.  Said he will discuss this tonight.  Funny though, wondered why big box stores got the shots and not private physicians and hospitals...guess they can control who get it better that way.

94 "If this BS goes through I fully expect to witness the largest demonstration of civil disobedience this country has ever seen."

What do you think people will do? And I'm not so sure it will be civil.

95 18
YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A THREAT OF IMPRISONMENT IN THE CAP & TRADE BILL?

I do.

James Hansen of NASA has said that democracy will never work to solve global warming. People would never vote to implement what really needs to be done. Only a global tyranny can save the planet...

96 93 this morning caught a little bit of Beck. He was mumbling something about the "death panels" having been funded and created already in one of the other legislation that passed. Posted by: curious at November 12, 2009 02:43 PM (p302b)

The language was buried in the Porkulus that no one was allowed to read before they rammed it through Congress on Friday night, only to have The Precedent then jump off to a vacation and not sign it until Tuesday in Denver, in front of a company he had lied about with their jobs and the Porkulus.

97 Can anyone explain how government run healthcare is not going to intrude on my right to make medical decisions privately that was read into the Constitution in the Roe v. Wade decision?

98
The kind of lead poisoning that occurs in the blink of an eye?

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 12, 2009 02:33 PM (IqfKc)

The kind of lead poisoning one might get between the curb and the front door of someones house. That kind.

99 If F.A. Hayek did botox jokes, this is the post he would have written.

100 Erin Burnett risking her job on CNBC again....

Interviewing a lobbyist and reading letters from intelligent thinking conservatives...ugh oh....

101 Mark Levin's book Liberty and Tyranny is pretty much a longer version of what Ace just posted. There is a certain breed of leftist/liberal for whom "freedom" can only be defined in oppositional terms: freedom from hunger, freedom from want, freedom from oppression. In other words, to many liberals, "freedom" means being protected from bad things. But you won't hear liberals use the word "liberty" as a synonym for freedom very often because, in their world, the two concepts are not really related.

Liberals, at base, do not trust or even like "the people". (There is an old joke that says liberals only like "people" in groups of a million or more.) They view individual citizens as stupid bleating sheep who exist mainly to funnel money to the benevolent government (for their own good, of course!). This is why leftist governments nearly always devolve into tyrranies over time: they cannot hide their disdain for the common man for very long. "Liberty", to a liberal, is just a license for citizens to act in stupid ways that are contrary to the common good.

There is also the endless obsession with parity, with "fairness" in all aspects of life. True liberty implies the freedom to make bad choices, to choose badly, to flame-out in spectacular fashion on occasion. Liberals find this intolerable at a very deep level; it flouts their illusion of control, I suspect. Liberals are almost always Utopians in the sense that they believe  that there is some single perfect outcome -- that if only enough control can be asserted over the masses, that a "perfect" society could result. Much blood and pain and needless suffering has resulted from the socialist desire to "perfect" human society.

If I could boil down my own conservative creed, it would be: the world is not -- cannot be -- perfect. Perfection is subjective to the individual; it is not a common aim. A Utopia for one would be an abject hell for another. The best a government or society can do is create a resonable public space for each individual to thrive and seek out their own private Utopias. In short, the formulation should always be "freedom to", not "freedom from".

102 The ideal conservative position is to be sufficiently well off to decide you're willing to accept 100% of the risk yourself. (Naturally striven for far more often than achieved.)

But this means the conservative position is  illegal.

103 The kind of lead poisoning that occurs in the blink of an eye?

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 12, 2009 02:33 PM (IqfKc)

Asked and answered your Honor..........

104 Posted by: Pyrocles at November 12, 2009 02:44 PM (xzSvW)

But they lost all their data....the guys who say there si no global warming have oodles of data supporting their conclusions....why are we as a nation, with the coldest October on record, still discussing global warming...I mean there are scientists out there talking mini ice age...

105  Oh oh oh oh oh here's a question - does this mean illegal aliens who show up at emergency rooms will now be sent to jail for not having insurance?  And if not, well, that's going to go over really really really well.

Posted by: alexthechick at November 12, 2009 02:28 PM (h1WPo)

I get it now- it's a type of immigration reform! Yay Jug-Eared Marxist! Yay Botox Broad! Lets see if I can scare up an award for him- I may have an old JROTC medal around here somewhere...

106

your government, passing laws that make you a criminal, and it's done in your name

 

HAD ENOUGH?

107 I love how my friends who cannot find jobs out of college will have to scramble to find 7k a year to pay for health insurance they don't need. It's going to be awesome. Thanks Pelosi! What would we do without you?

108
James Hansen?

Is that the turd who said "we" needed to stop acting like irresponsible teenagers doing what we want whenever we wanted? Or was that Chu?

109 My understanding (from reading the article this weekend Dan-o refers to by Betsey McCaughy) is that this will be enforced on your tax return.  You will have to provide proof of insurance when you file. 

It seems illegals are exempt, it seems the"poor" (as defined how?) will get free or subsized premiums, but the "rich" (as defined how?) will have to pay full fare.  Or their employers will, assuming they don't dump their staff right into the gov option. 

If the "rich" refuse, the IRS is the agent of confiscation.  So they'll go for the money first.  Lien on the house? wired right out of the account? 25k if not a willfull violation.  250k if found to be willfull.  If you don't pay, Jailtime. (It's an "or" not "and" test, I think)

It is nothing more than redistribution of your wealth to the government (to do as it sees fit with your wealth, of course) at the point of a gun.

As Herr points out- Revolution? Too soon?  Ummmm. Do you really want this to pass and try to fix it later? It might be time.

110 94

I expect a large group of people to refuse to buy insurance or pay a fine and, as a result, go to jail

111

Not true that it's not being thought about. But there's not going to be a "case or controversy" for the courts till (and if) some sort of Pelosicare law is signed into law. So I'd postpone any serious hand-wringing and sweating of the details for a while. Meantime, keep on calling Congress.

112 "Can anyone explain how government run healthcare is not going to intrude on my right to make medical decisions privately that was read into the Constitution in the Roe v. Wade decision?"

That's what happens when you write poor legislation. No sense.
Pretzels will be made trying to make logic where none exists.

113 My understanding (from reading the article this weekend Dan-o refers to by Betsey McCaughy) is that this will be enforced on your tax return.

What tax return?

114 Nice rant, Ace.

115 En Fuego!

116 Posted by: J. Moses Browning at November 12, 2009 02:51 PM (3G4di)

I don't know....everyone I talk to seems to think that the Supremes are going to rubber stamp this one....educated people with law degrees...

Why are they saying this?  Cause nothing has been normal...nothing....so why should we expect anything the Supremes do to be normal?????

117

Sic semper tyrannis is a Latin phrase meaning "thus always to tyrants".

If congreSS exempts itself, we have arrived.

118
However, the Nazis rounded up Jews and other unwanted citizens by the millions and exterminated them.  Are the Donks doing this or advocating for it?  The question of course is silly.

The question is silly, dan-o, because the answer is YES. Two words: death panels.

The Nazis didn't start off killing Jews. Eugenics began exactly where the death panels begin. They began rounding up the retarded, the handicapped, and the insane, and euthanizing them. Exactly like the death panels. The "unproductive" will be denied any care and encouraged to die. The "unproductive" includes ... the retarded, the handicapped, the insane, and (bonus!) the old and very young.

If and when this bill passes, then millions will die. It already happens in Britain, by the way. About 17% of ALL DEATHS are from their "fast track" program when they cut off all care - including food and antibiotics - to "terminal" patients. And doctors have carte blanche to decide who's terminal. It's slightly slower than the Nazis, but I bet their total body count is about the same by now.

Socialists = Nazis with better PR.

119 What do you think people will do?

They simply won't pay.  Many because they simply can't.  There's a lot of late boomers in their 50's who aren't old enough to "retire" and collect social security/medicare, yet are currently having a hard time getting another job due to the economy sucking. 

They're in a hard place now.  Maybe their house and cars are paid for and they're "just getting by" managing to pay property taxes and such but everything else is puckered up tight and they're eating beans and rice watching their savings dwindle and hoping shit will turn around before they hit a hard stop and have to sell their homes and join the ranks of the homeless or move in with their kids.

If you've been eating rice and beans for a few years, living in the dark with one 40W bulb and taking your car out only when you have to to buy food at the dollar store, a few years at a minimum security Club Fed starts to look more like a vacation than a punishment.  Meals with meat, cable TV, warm buildings, clothing that isn't all rags, etc.  Pelosi's threat offer of prison will look pretty attractive to about 2M people.

120 102 The ideal conservative position is to be sufficiently well off to decide you're willing to accept 100% of the risk yourself. (Naturally striven for far more often than achieved.)

But this means the conservative position is  illegal.

Posted by: Al at November 12, 2009 02:48 PM (VtygY)

EXCELLENT OBSERVATION.

121 I'll be in my bunker.

122
They're not gonna send you to jail. They'll garner your paychecks, they'll put a lien on your house, they'll keep you from renewing your car registration or driver's license, they'll bar you or your kids from financial aid, etc.

There are million ways they can come at you. You will pay.

123
You know what so wonderful about all of this ? Nancy and the rest of the Inner-Party members all voted to keep their free private health insurance paid for by us proletarians.

124 This can't be our goal, but assuming Pelosi care dies in the Senate, we will have her, pehaps as much as Obama, to thank for keeping us safe from Europeanization for another generation.

G-d, I hate that woman.  50x greater than Obama!  50x!

125 Not too shabby, Ace.  I almost thought you had Doctor Zero guest blogging today.

126 50X!

127 >> Dan-o, do you really want to wait until millions are dead before you worry that there might be a problem?  Obama's mentor Ayers has been perfectly clear about their intentions for 30 years.
Do you really think the people that chopped up 50 million American babies would hesitate to do the same to us, save for our capacity to defend ourselves (or more to the point, counterstrike)?

Again, I am not saying that there is no problem.  People need to become aware of the inevitable decline of socialistic policies to totalitarianism.  Yes, we need to stop this trend. 

But we also need to be able to see the difference between passing socialized health care and exterminating 9 million human beings with incinerators.  The comparison of the Donks to the Nazis falls flat for this reason.  And those who make the comparison seem desperate and lacking common sense.

128 A Utopia for one would be an abject hell for another.

You know, when I say that Alextopia will be better for me, it's not just a joke.  That's the point.  My version of Utopia (guns and booze and broads and hot guys and pron for all!) would make others (say the Amish) weep and weep. 

129 Wonder when they are going to realize that so many people lost their jobs that they aren't getting the tax revenues from their salaries.  Wonder when they are going to realize that people aren't able to get mortgages, aren't able to refinance so they aren't getting all those hidden taxes when you close on a new house or refinance.  Wonder when it is going to hit them that this 12% unemployment is having an impact?

130 Liberals are almost always Utopians in the sense that they believe that there is some single perfect outcome -- that if only enough control can be asserted over the masses, that a "perfect" society could result.

Posted by: Monty at November 12, 2009 02:48 PM (4Pleu)

Liberals are even worse than Utopians. Liberals are STATICISTS. They form all of their ideas around a static world that never really changes. They don't take into account growth or dynamism of any kind, which is why they are always so quick to try to centralize planning and control. Any static system is amenable to central authority, since it remains the same, for the most part, and all that central authority needs to do is check the books and mete out the paper clips and staples.

Of course, Utopians are a certain subset of Staticists, as Utopian worlds are static in that perfection has finally been achieved and cannot be thrown out of balance with any changes in the perfect rule set, but the great bulk of liberals are merely too stupid to understand that the world they see today will not be the same world tomorrow and that any central authority constructed today will be found to be useless (if not worse) as the world changes tomorrow and renders that authority's organization and implementation to be anachronistic, if not downright counter-productive or destructive.

Growth and dynamism are the great enemies of modern liberalism, as whatever equanimity that one can force on a society at any given point in time will quickly be thrown into disarray by the natural growth and changing environment that that society must adapt to.

Anyone who ever spent any time on an Israeli kibbutz (the purest and most well-intentioned implementations of leftist ideology ever, on the most workable scales possible) got to see this dynamic up close. Israeli kibbutzim were the best examples of the deep, theoretical problems with leftist ideology, even though they had more than ample groups dedicated to the leftist ideals and more than enough brainpower to carry it out, if it were possible.

131 "There are million ways they can come at you. You will pay."

Yup.

132 101

Monty, your comment reminds me of de tocqueville's Democracy in America where he, again and again, makes note of the struggle between equality and liberty.  The liberals are trying to push things much farther toward the equality end of this spectrum, more specifically toward equality of result.  Liberals view equality as being what is most fair. The problem is that equality and liberty are mutually exclusive.  We can't all be made equal without first taking away our liberty.

133 Liberals, at base, do not trust or even like "the people". (There is an old joke that says liberals only like "people" in groups of a million or more.) They view individual citizens as stupid bleating sheep who exist mainly to funnel money to the benevolent government (for their own good, of course!). This is why leftist governments nearly always devolve into tyrranies over time: they cannot hide their disdain for the common man for very long. "Liberty", to a liberal, is just a license for citizens to act in stupid ways that are contrary to the common good......

Posted by: Monty at November 12, 2009 02:48 PM (4Pleu)

Great post Monty. As an illustration of the liberal dismissal of the little guy remember Bill Clinton. Remember the callous way he and his wife steamrollered the White House Travel Offcie staff - little people on the scale of things - , trying to destroy them through false allegations and expensive trials. And remember the individual women who were steamrollered and destroyed over their allegations  about his advances. Not much concern for the little guy/gal there either. And so much for the vaunted feminist movement.

And this from a liberal - Clinton - who is pretty much revered today by many and was mild in comparison to Obama and his hard core leftism.

We need to wake the fuck up to the reality of the hypocrisy of the Left. But I'm afraid that the misperceptions are so rampant, so diffuse that it's like trying to get fish to understand that they're wet.

134

This sounds like a great reason for Gov. Rick Perry to tell obama to take his plan and stick it up his ass.

Any thoughts on how many states will stand up and reject this thing?

The pussies in my stae won't (Oregon)  Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 12, 2009 02:30 PM (IqfKc)

Isn't our state just fuckin wonderful? Lucky us.

135

Speaking of criminals, I notice Bill Clinton has been trotting around, pimping this health care package.  Did someone slip a "fellatio clause" into this bill?  You know, 'cause nothing says "good health" like a good BJ, - and abortion funding would be like, totally unnecessary.

136 dan-o, the difference is between a lot of people in a gas chamber and the same amount of people in separate hospital beds with needles in their arms.

137

What tax return?

The budget deficit for October was 176 billion.  Holy hell.

For a month.  No lie.

But let's shovel more debt on top of that in the form of the thing^tm.

We have exactly zero serious people remaining in the legislative and executive branches.

138 >Sic semper tyrannis is a Latin phrase meaning "thus always to tyrants".

If congreSS exempts itself, we have arrived.

Posted by: Johnathan E. at November 12, 2009 02:55 PM (dQdrY)

 

Congress routinely exempts itself from the laws it passes

 

WE'RE THERE

139 I for one think we should have Ace's righty blogger bash at Alextopia!!!

140 Thank you 52 percenters for literally fucking this country up.

141 This is minor. Wait till they dredge up a reason to take over food production.

142 Why can't we just tell people who can't afford healthcare, that they can't have it?  Instead, we're going to require people to get insurance and if they can't afford it, they go to jail?


I really wish people would stop confusing "insurance" with "healthcare."

143 There is a deeper issue here. The power to jail you for the voluntary non-participation in the national health insurance scheme is being implemented through the tax enforcement infrastructure. Within the tax courts and process, the system is significantly tilted towards the Government. So the participation or non-participation fees are being administered, collected, and enforced by the IRS (but it is not a tax).

144 Bush is on Fox right now making his first post-Presidential speech.

145 This is too stupid, even for the dems.  These outrageous parts of the bill (just like the abortion funding) are throwaways. They will absolutely keep them if they can, but the real purpose of these provisions is to draw outrage away from other slightly less objectionable parts.  If these super-bad features are "compromised" out of the bill, it will be more likely to pass with some only-really-really-bad provisions.

146
This is minor. Wait till they dredge up a reason to take over food production.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 12, 2009 03:02 PM (dQdrY)

Ahem, you rang ?

147 Wait till they dredge up a reason to take over food production.

FDR already did that 70 years ago.  Some was struck down, but far too much remained.  That's where the Gumby like distortion of the Commerce Clause got legs that keep running today.

148 They're taking kids away from parents in England because they're too fat. They took one woman's baby away just after she gave birth because he might become fat. Same logic: we're paying for this as a people so the government has to step in and make sure the costs are kept down. Your fatties are increasing the burden on everyone else.

This is about liberty and personal responsibility vs collective centralized control and tyranny. Our congress is embracing tyranny and people are fleeing liberty. We deserve whatever we get when that happens.

149
>> The question is silly, dan-o, because the answer is YES. Two words: death panels.

I'm sorry, but this is absurd.  Take a step back a realize that you are comparing this to the rounding up of millions of people into forced labor camps, and then the systematic extermination of 9 million of them by gas showers, starvation, and overwork. 

I understand that you are concerned with where the current government will lead the country.  I am too.  I, like you, don't discount the possibility that the USA will one day in the future become a totalitarian state.  But we are not currently there, and hyperbole will get us nowhere.

150 True liberty implies the freedom to make bad choices, to choose badly, to flame-out in spectacular fashion on occasion.


Hey, that sounds a lot like my life. Every bad choice is my fault, and my fault alone.

And I wouldn't have it any other way.

151 Socialism = slavery and theft.  Those in this country who believe they're entitled to something for nothing won't think it's so cool when that free meal comes with a chain and collar. 

If the leftists could stop chanting false accusations of racism long enough to think about what we're trying to tell them they'd realize they're signing themselves up to be Gimp from "Pulp Fiction."  Or maybe Marsellus is the better analogy IFKWIM.

152 There really is no one better when ace is on his game. 

153

I meant all food production. A depression would be reason enough. You might avoid a need for healthcare for a while, but you have to eat.

The largest body counts in the history of communism where the result of collectivizing the farms.

154 I think the only way to defeat this bill is to harp on each and everyone of these issues so that the process is extended into next year. Then it might be possible to kill the bill.

155 They're taking kids away from parents in England because they're too fat. They took one woman's baby away just after she gave birth because he might become fat.

If they come for the kids, you'll be able able to walk straight onto my roof from the pile of bodies.

156 @ 101

I think George Washington had it right when he said that one of man's basic rights is is simply the right to be left alone.

157 Well...I want the contracts to build all the new Federal prisons they'll need.  Based on data I've collected, they'll need to build about 10X more Federal prison space than they have online at the moment.

158 Those in this country who believe they're entitled to something for nothing won't think it's so cool when that free meal comes with a chain and collar.

I wish I believed that, but as long as there's something on TV and someone to fuck I don't think they give a damn about where their food stamps are coming from.

159 Sic semper tyrannis is a Latin phrase meaning "thus always to tyrants".

It's what John Wilkes Booth shouted when he assassinated Lincoln, echoing what Brutus is reputed to have said when he struck down Julius Caesar.

Monty, your comment reminds me of de tocqueville's Democracy in America where he, again and again, makes note of the struggle between equality and liberty.

De Toqueville saw very early on that America was prone to a kind of "soft tyranny", where the electorate would gradually cede liberties to the Government in trade for greater social security. Socialists always think that "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" can work as an economic precept, in spite of the fact that it has spectacularly failed every time it has been tried.

Liberty contains the possibility of failure...indeed, of complete ruination. Nature is not fair in how it apportions talent to individual people, and Dame Fortune is a fickle and fey wench indeed. Smarter people will generally succeed far better than stupid people; but sometimes stupid people will luck out and reap huge rewards (Paris Hilton, Exhibit #1). Neither outcome is "fair" in the sense that liberals mean it, but they are equitable.

I sometimes think that liberals would rather have uniformly horrible health care, so long as the awfulness was spread out impartially. It's not the individual outcomes they care about (apart from their own, of course), but the "big picture". Again, it's that obsession with parity coming out. To a liberal, people only have worth in groups; as individuals, they mean nothing. I find that a repugnant worldview. I've known many people who are, individually, worth more then a thousand or million others; and others who aren't worth the cost of the bullet it would take to blow their brains out.

160 Take a step back a realize that you are comparing this to the rounding up of millions of people into forced labor camps, and then the systematic extermination of 9 25 million of them by gas showers, starvation, and overwork.

FIFY.

161 Liberals are even worse than Utopians. Liberals are STATICISTS. They form all of their ideas around a static world that never really changes. They don't take into account growth or dynamism of any kind, which is why they are always so quick to try to centralize planning and control. Any static system is amenable to central authority, since it remains the same, for the most part, and all that central authority needs to do is check the books and mete out the paper clips and staples.

A perfect example of this is the cars that the Soviet States drove.  The same exact vehicles were manufactured for over 40 years with no improvements in technology.  They killed all of the motivation for product improvement.  There is no benefit to improve anything.

If you need further proof, look at Cuba.  They still drive 1950's American cars.

162 Jail time should be linked to any mandate of any sort, so the Pelosi punishment isn't simply traded for the Baucus fine.

163 Herr: What tax return?

Precisely.  This will drive the economy underground.  It's the only way to prevent  them from confiscating your wealth.  You may also see vast sums disappear from the banking system, either to other forms of tangible wealth or to foreign countries.   Lots of reasons for gold at $1120- I'm sure this plays a part.

164 If I could boil down my own conservative creed, it would be: the world is not -- cannot be -- perfect. Perfection is subjective to the individual; it is not a common aim.

There's an argument against perfection that you'd think the "WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS OF SCIENCE" left would buy into -- that perfection violates causality, because in order to achieve perfection, you must be able to react to events before they occur. However, I've never seen one even acknowledge this argument -- apparently it's rather like *fnord*.

165 Rodent Liberation Front: Food control bill.

It's not just farmer's markets--produce grown for home consumption is also subject.  Ta-da.

166 If the leftists could stop chanting false accusations of racism long enough to think about what we're trying to tell them they'd realize they're signing themselves up to be Gimp from "Pulp Fiction."  Or maybe Marsellus is the better analogy IFKWIM.

Posted by: Crusty at November 12, 2009 03:06 PM (GvSpB)

Thats the problem, they don't think. They live for today. Always thinking they are going to miss out on some great utopian society in their generation the likes of which the world has never seen. Of course you and I will have to pay for it, but oh well, everything is a right, not a privledge. Makes me wonder how many Bolsheviks in the lower echelons just a few years after taking power and gaining their dystopia said "Dude,.... wtf ?"

167

The largest body counts in the history of communism where the result of collectivizing the farms.

Collectivization killed more people than the Black Death.  Think about that one for a minute...

168 @151 Crusty

Those in this country who believe they're entitled to something for nothing won't think it's so cool when that free meal comes with a chain and collar.

Sorry, but your metaphor isn't quite complete.  They know that the meal comes with a chain and collar.  They're cool with it so long as that chain and collar is going on my neck instead of theirs.

169 So if someone loses their job and decides that their money is better spent keeping food on the table and a roof over their head, then they go to jail because they don't buy insurance.  Or they get fined?  Really?  Wow, we are sooooo f-ed.

170 Outstanding post, Monty.  I find that to be very cogent, and all too true.  I may steal it as a Facebook page status update, attributed to "anonymous, " if you have no objection.

171 I meant all food production.

That's precisely what FDR did -- even the food you grew in your own little garden for your own consumption came under the control of the Federal government.  There was one very famous SCOTUS case over this (which I've forgotten the citation for), where the government's logic was that growing food for local personal consumption was an interstate activity falling under the Commerce Clause because that food you grew for yourself PREVENTED you having to buy food from some farmer across a state line.

I believe some poor farmer went to prison over this for growing food for his family on their own little garden and that exceeded the federally mandated crop limits for his farm.

172 They're taking kids away from parents in England because they're too fat. They took one woman's baby away just after she gave birth because he might become fat.

Are they giving the kids gene therapy, or are they just going to demand all fat people be sterilized/forced to abort? 

173

There is one thing I don't think anybody has caught onto yet, but will be HUGE when it's finally out.

Ready?

Let's say ObamaCare passes with the government option. Employers paying 12-13% on employees healthcare will be charged an 8% fine if they don't. Bottom line, stop providing employer healthcare saves the employer 4-5%.

Now the kicker:

These employees will now HAVE to buy their healthcare from the government, but with what money? The employers aren't going to give them raises, not in this economy for sure. Even if the employers gave their employees the 4-5% difference (and why not keep them on the plan if they were going to do that?), the employees would still have to pony up the 8% out of their ever shrinking pockets.

Bottom line:

Employees lose their employer paid healthcare, AND have to buy new healthcare from the government without any increase in their pay.

 

Example (purely hypothetical, all WAGs): Your employer pays $600/month for your healthcare. Drops your insurance, and you have to buy from the government for $500/month. You lose the $600 benefit and pay out an additional $500. Net loss to you: $1,100.00/month.

How's them apples?

174 This is minor. Wait till they dredge up a reason to take over food production.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 12, 2009 03:02 PM (dQdrY)

Ahem, you rang ?

Posted by: Cass "meat is murder" Sunstein at November 12, 2009 03:05 PM (+FzLa)

Cass, kiss my ass....errrr, fins.

175 So if someone loses their job and decides that their money is better spent keeping food on the table and a roof over their head, then they go to jail because they don't buy insurance.


There's no place for people setting their own priorities in a command economy.

176 They will get money for health care when they pry it out of my cold dead fingers.

Seriously, how do they see this as working? If it puts business out of business, they will just close the door.

Pass health care by Christmas, watch unemployment reach 50% by Valentines day.

177 Watched eric cantor on CNBC this morning.  He was the guest on Squawk Box.  Had a little respect left for the guy until I saw him on there.  He was "debating " some female dem, swartz I think and he totally lost the debate.  Was embarrassing...he was spending so much time bending over for her to kick him that he never realized her poor argument was winning cuase he was so nice, he was just so sickeningly nice....and wanting to cooperate...forget him...won't vote for him for dog catcher..he shoudl be out...they all should be out...

Then saw the lobbyist interview....basically he said.."we do this cause the campaign finance laws allow us to do this"....

178

crap.  Need to work on my shank-making skills.

/hey, at least the prison gaurds will have work!

 

179

The left says: You are crazy to claim your so-called freedoms are being taken away, and you are a lunatic to scream about an overly powerful state which will use violent coercion ... to enforce its notions of the "economic good."

And with the next breath the left says---

Hang on, Ace. One thing at a time. "Really? You're less free, because of a beneficial law?" (I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, for which I'm fully qualified.) "Name one thing you can't do now that you could do before." (I politely pretend to listen.) Then I say, "I don't believe you. But, assuming you're right about that, which you're not, there are so many more things you can do. Besides, would you prefer that people eat cat food? Would you like to see people die in hospital waiting rooms because they don't have insurance?"

I win this argument. (And it's done and forgotten before we proceed.)

   *   *   *

And with the next breath the left says: By the way, you shall either buy health care insurance or we will throw you in prison for two or three years.

"Well, isn't it your side who says there are consequences for actions, that law breakers should go to jail? Ace, you are such a hypocrite!"

Separate from the first agrument, I win this one, too.

180

Beautiful.

181 I may steal it as a Facebook page status update, attributed to "anonymous, " if you have no objection.

Steal away and run like a thief, brother. With my compliments. Feel free to put my name on it -- I don't believe in hiding behind a fake name.

182 Thank you 52 percenters for literally fucking this country up.

Posted by: Bosk at November 12, 2009 03:02 PM (pUO5u)

I began flipping off people in cars with Obama/Biden '08 stickers on them a few months ago. It brightens my day just a little to see the shocked look on their idiot faces.

183 Furthermore, apart from the basic definitional aspect of socialism that requires a loss of freedom in exchange, supposedly, for economic security: Socialism has almost never worked as intended, but rather creates new problems and new poverties and new ways to exploit the system (black markets, for one); socialism therefore always requires even additional laws against once-unobjectionable and perfectly-legal behavior. In other words, not only does socialism require a small buy-in, in the form of loss of freedom, but it is always accompanied by unplanned-for (?) additional losses of freedom to "correct" for all the systematic irrationalities and distortions it creates.

You don't know what you're talking about.  Socialism works great.

184 I like your style, Mandy.

185 Watched eric cantor on CNBC this morning.

This is why conservatives need to do the research on these wishy washy nice Republican's. The MSM loves this guy- RED FLAG !

Oh, and Granny Colostomy Bag can kiss my ass.

186 Neither outcome is "fair" in the sense that liberals mean it, but they are equitable.

I find that equality of opportunity scares many liberals. they afraid of having the opportunity to fail. If we're all on the same level, such as the uniformly horrible health care you mentioned, then liberals wouldn't have to worry about being any worse off than their neighbor.

187 So if someone loses their job and decides that their money is better spent keeping food on the table and a roof over their head, then they go to jail because they don't buy insurance.  Or they get fined?  Really?  Wow, we are sooooo f-ed.

Posted by: rockhead at November 12, 2009 03:13 PM (RykTt)

Don't worry, maybe the producers will be able to get foodstamps to make up the difference and become ever dependent on the government. See where this is going ?

I'll take this a step further. I am starting to wonder if this administration and Congress isn't deliberately trying to sabotage the economy and kill jobs to do exactly just that, enabling them to implement all of their leftist wet dreams.

188 This reminds me.  I bought 1000 rounds of ammo last week.

189 "Well, isn't it your side who says there are consequences for actions, that law breakers should go to jail? Ace, you are such a hypocrite!"

To which I would reply: "If you want me, come and take me. It is not only my right but my Constitutional duty to disobey an unjust law. I am willing to bear the consequences of my actions. Are you?"

190 FireHorse needs to lay off the firewater.

191 I began flipping off people in cars with Obama/Biden '08 stickers on them a few months ago. It brightens my day just a little to see the shocked look on their idiot faces.

I take it a step further,  if I'm in my beater car, I go out of my way to force them off the road on sharp curves.

192 Steal away and run like a thief, brother. With my compliments. Feel free to put my name on it -- I don't believe in hiding behind a fake name.

You're such a crack up, Monty!

193 #48....Nooooo, illegal aliens will NOT go to jail FEMA camps for not having insurance. They are being kept down by The Man, they're exempt. When the white slavemasters go away, the illegals will get their houses, cars, furniture, and pets.

194 Firehorse is a riot.  This guy is like the Al "Debate is Over" Gore of the blog world.

195 This is minor. Wait till they dredge up a reason to take over food production.

This is what really terrifies me.

I live low-carb. I've lost, and kept off for three years now, over a hundred pounds.
(Thanks Ace!!)

I've still got thirty extra pounds that I'm slowly grinding away at. I exercise every day. But these damn food nazis are going to tell me how I need to hook my pie-hole up to a feed-bag full of "healthy" grains or no medical care for you!

I'm descended from a long line of northern european hunter-gatherers dammit! I need raw meat, bitter greens, and fruits and veg in season, not cattle feed.

196 I believe some poor farmer went to prison over this for growing food for his family on their own little garden and that exceeded the federally mandated crop limits for his farm.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 12, 2009 03:14 PM (O4UXx)

This time they'll take the land.

197 So if someone loses their job and decides that their money is better spent keeping food on the table and a roof over their head, then they go to jail because they don't buy insurance.


There's no place for people setting their own priorities in a command economy.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at November 12, 2009 03:16 PM (NtiET)

Shut up and drink your Koolaid.

198

Will they throw illegal immigrants in jail for not buying health insurance?

If yes, why not use the awesome opportunity to deport them?

If not, why should the citizens not throw away their shacles of citizenship (SS card, birth certificate, Passport) and become illegals?

199

I'll take this a step further. I am starting to wonder if this administration and Congress isn't deliberately trying to sabotage the economy and kill jobs to do exactly just that, enabling them to implement all of their leftist wet dreams.

Posted by: Blazer at November 12, 2009 03:24 PM (+FzLa)

I told my family this back during the primaries. It's really the only way I can make sense of why these people would deliberately do things that have been proven over and over again to be detrimental to a nation. They thought I was nuts at the time, but now I'm getting a lot of family members starting to speculate the same way.

200 Next thing you know, you will get jailed for not buying a supple laptop battery.

201 I take it a step further,  if I'm in my beater car, I go out of my way to force them off the road on sharp curves.

Posted by: Mr. Pissed at November 12, 2009 03:25 PM (EL+OC)

If I weren't hauling my kid around in the backseat, I'd probably consider it. I've also considered thanking them for their stupidity and telling them to fuck off when I come across them in parking lots. But again, having the kid around is a bit of a deterrent.

202

With no intention to go Godwin on the subject, but take a look on how the Germans were able to have the Jews peacefully marched to the deathcamps.  The same strategy seems to be in effect for the latest liberal agenda. 

It was a psychological trick the Germans used to prevent any type of resistance.  They would form two lines and have the people believe that there was a choice and since their was a choice there was no real danger ahead.  Of course once they arrived at their destinations, all delusions they held that everything was going to be alright were smashed.

203 Shut up and drink your Koolaid.

Not me.  I'm going to prison.  I've been thinking about a BFA--why not let the taxpayers pay my room, board, and (irony!) medical care for five years while I work on it?

204 However, the Nazis rounded up Jews and other unwanted citizens by the millions and exterminated them.

That was the penalty in Germany for not buying Nazi health insurance.

It was very fair.

205 I find that equality of opportunity scares many liberals. they afraid of having the opportunity to fail

It's a very deep-seated impulse for many leftists. It explains their constant flogging of varioius dead horses (public schooling leaps immediately to mind). They see a social experiment that they think should work, given a specific set of conditions and funding; and when the experiment fails, rather than blame their flawed premises, they simply assume that the experiment itself was flawed in some way. In other words, they commit a classic scientific fallacy: they begin with a conclusion they want and work backward, experimenting until they get the answers that fit their conclusions. America's public schools since 1965 or so have been the most glaring example of how flawed this kind of thinking is,  yet no one wants to say it because "it's for the children!". (Or "the poor", or "the sick", or "the minorities", or whomever the latest victim group is.)

It's this kind of skewed thought-process that explains the duality that exists in many leftists. They purport to be on the side of the "little people" and "mother nature", to be kind and generous, and yet are capable of the most abject cruelty and brutality if done in the name of the "common good". And I think it's because leftists truly do not like individual human beings; they only really care about "people" as an abstract concept. Again, it's that impulse towards the Utopian Ideal.  And this impulse always -- always -- leads to tyranny of one kind or another.

206 "I am starting to wonder if this administration and Congress isn't deliberately trying to sabotage the economy ... "

Barack Obama is John Galt.

207 Jail the Health Push Wreckers!

208 OT:  In October, tax receipts were 135B--Spending 312B:
ergo, 56.7% of spending for the month is debt.  That, my friends, is the definition of fucked.
http:////tinyurl.com/yztbgva

209 Socialism = slavery and theft. 

Posted by: Crusty at November 12, 2009 03:06 PM (GvSpB)

One man living of the labor of another:

 > In the 19th century South was bad.

> In the 21st century US is good.

210

"If you want me, come and take me. It is not only my right but my Constitutional duty to disobey an unjust law. I am willing to bear the consequences of my actions. Are you?"

Funny, you were singing a different tune while your guy was giving unjust orders to kids, sending them off to fight an unjust, illegal war. Monty, you're such a hypocrite!

(I'm still playing Devil's Advocate, by the way -- and yes, every argument contains "I don't believe you" or "you're such a hypocrite.")

 

211 Sorry if this is a repeat since I just got back from the dentist.

Socialism and communism must always evolve in parallel with totalitarian governments run by dictators or oligarchies. The must always trend to this because people who earn things and own things simply will not give them up voluntarily. It must be done with coercion by men with guns.

When I told this to my sister-in-law who is a huge liberal she was simply astounded that I felt that way and said that I was just making up shit as an exaggeration. So I asked her what would happen if she refused to pay income taxes. She said well you will go to jail of course. So I asked her what would happen if ytou refused to be arrested and hauled off to jail.  The response was they will force you. So I asked what if you resist the force violently. Well then they may shoot you.

She just could not put that together and tie it all up. She is in management at a bank BTW and a college graduate. Political "feelings" seem to override the frontal lobe of the brain and cause some industrial strength stupid in liberals who may be otherwise half way intelligent.

As for Nanny Nan who makes no effort to even follow the Constituion at all, one wonders how she would feel if we started routinely violating it by pulling her from her house and coating her from head to tow in hot tar and feathers.

212 42 The laptop battery is supple the energy for the laptop in order to visit this news.

Posted by: Laptop-battery at November 12, 2009 02:26 PM (6VX8u)

Sadly, this guy makes more economic sense than Pres'Ent Toonces does.

213 It's a very deep-seated impulse for many leftists. It explains their constant flogging of varioius dead horses (public schooling leaps immediately to mind). They see a social experiment that they think should work, given a specific set of conditions and funding; and when the experiment fails, rather than blame their flawed premises, they simply assume that the experiment itself was flawed in some way.

Kind of like all of the Keynesians thinking that they just didn't spend enough money on their failed programs.  Next time we will do the same thing but we will go much bigger!!!

214 This time they'll take the land. Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 12, 2009 03:28 PM (dQdrY)

Meh. The states are going to get the land, first, as they confiscate wealth through draconian property taxes that will be required to keep the states afloat to provide federally mandated programs and services.

215 The laptop battery is supple the energy for the laptop in order to visit this news. Posted by: Laptop-battery at November 12, 2009 02:26 PM (6VX8u)

Know the meaning of "turf", punk?

216 And I think it's because leftists truly do not like individual human beings; they only really care about "people" as an abstract concept.

Oh, they care about individuals alright. But only if those individuals are themselves. All of the people I know personally who are on this socialist health insurance band wagon are all there because they personally don't like having to pay for their health care. I have one friend who's constantly bitching on her facebook page about her company switching to a lower-cost plan that has a $1500 deductible. I guess they had one of those BCBS "Cadillac" plans that had no deductible and no co-pays. She wasn't happy with me when I suggested that, considering this crappy economy, the choice for her employer may have been between cutting back on insurance costs or laying off employees and that she should be grateful she still had a job.

Bottom line: it's all about selfishness for a lot of people.

For others it's about being a do-gooder by proxy. A lot of liberals feel good about themselves because they think they're doing something charitable by voting for this crap.

217 I'm still playing Devil's Advocate, by the way -- and yes, every argument contains "I don't believe you" or "you're such a hypocrite.

I think it was Oscar Wilde who once said that it took a special kind of coward to stab a man and then claim he was only testing the strength of the blade.

218 (I'm still playing Devil's Advocate, by the way --

Posted by: FireHorse at November 12, 2009 03:35 PM (Vl5GH)

You're playing the imbecile's advocate, but he often does pro-bono work for the Devil, as we saw last Nov.

219 Shoot the traitors to the Common Wellness Doctrine!

220 The law will assuredly be upgraded to a mandatory death sentence for those without health insurance.

221 #217

Now that's what I call a good skewering.

222 I will surrender to be incarcerated, at the White House gate, on the day Obama signs this bill into law. I will never buy health insurance and will not live in a country where it is mandatory. I am a conscientious objector. I wonder if that will make me a political prisoner? Perhaps those who feel the same should consider joining me?  

223 Look people, minimum security Federal prison isn't all that bad.  Given my traditionally spartan tastes, it would certainly be a culinary and entertainment upgrade.

If I punch a prison guard every few years, I'll effectively have a fully paid up lifetime retirement plan.

224 every argument contains "I don't believe you" or "you're such a hypocrite."

Also: I've never understood the special reverence lefitsts have for the "hypocrite" insult. They love the taste of it; they roll it in their mouths like a piece of hard candy. Yet it doesn't carry the freight they think it does.

Consider: is a murderer who repents a hypocrite? Should we insult him for giving up his bloody pastime because it's not ideologically consistent? Or an alcoholic who gives up the booze? Or a heroin addict who kicks the habit?

You cannot live in this world and not be a hypocrite. I am not the same person I was at 30, just as that Monty was not the same Monty who walked the earth at 20. In some cases, my beliefs have completed changed -- in others, they have only deepened and broadened.

Call me a hypocrite if it amuses you. As Walt Whitman said, "I am large; I contain multitudes." Just don't labor under the impression that the word really carries any significant meaning, because it doesn't. It doesn't move the conversation forward a single centimeter.

225 For others it's about being a do-gooder by proxy. A lot of liberals feel good about themselves because they think they're doing something charitable by voting for this crap.

Ya know, the more I think about it, this is another form of selfishness, too. We all know from the numbers on charitable giving that liberals are cheap-asses. I would be willing to bet you that voting for the government to spread all this "good will" (as they see it anyway) is a way to feel good about themselves without actually having to get out there and do something genuinely charitable.

226

So, I want to know after seeing this and the comments if anyone who used to think the 3 percenters over at Sipsey St. were crazy have changed their minds?

Mike is writing a book about revolution starting over confiscation of guns. He'll freely admit that it could start over many other things.

227 The law will assuredly be upgraded to a mandatory death sentence for those without health insurance.

Posted by: Bob from Virginia at November 12, 2009 03:41 PM (uEMA+)

In due time it will also become a death sentence for those who have it. Thats a feature, not a bug.

228

The Oprah zombies will totally believe that all the camp prisoners stole a guard's weapon and committed suicide. Then go back to being facinated about what a starlet wore to the Oscars.

How's that peaceful protest working so far?

229 For others it's about being a do-gooder by proxy.

Some guy on Fark called it "Tiger Balm for Butt-Hurt". I laughed so hard I almost hurt myself over that one.

230 It's this kind of skewed thought-process that explains the duality that exists in many leftists. They purport to be on the side of the "little people" and "mother nature", to be kind and generous, and yet are capable of the most abject cruelty and brutality if done in the name of the "common good". And I think it's because leftists truly do not like individual human beings; they only really care about "people" as an abstract concept. Again, it's that impulse towards the Utopian Ideal.  And this impulse always -- always -- leads to tyranny of one kind or another.

Posted by: Monty at November 12, 2009 03:32 PM (4Pleu)

The labels liberal and leftist don't accurately portray these people's beliefs, IMO. A better description, I think, is collectivist. Collectivism as a philosophy is the easy way out because it embodies an abandonment of personal responsibility or accountability and the necessary thought processes that go along. And that is part of its appeal no doubt. it's the lazy man's way of thinking. Conservatism, based on logic and rational thought, is harder on the whole and is by it's very nature individualistic.

The collectivists among us are like the Borg. With the exception that the Borg have a sense of humor. These fuckers do not.

231 Come and get me Nancy, but beware the whizzing .223, 7.62, British 303, .45 .306 and the occasional claymore that just "MIGHT" go off when you knock on my door You know where I am, have been here for awhile......

232 Mandy--

I don't think they're trying to sabotage the economy, actually. They are so goddamned stupid, they actually believe they can pass all this stuff and have a good economy. Think about the dim bulbs behind all this: Pelosi, Waxman, Markey, all those idiots in New York.

This is last gasp of the Flower Children, the Peter Pan generation that never grew up and still believes the rubbish they chanted about in 1968.

IDIOTS.

233 Ya know, the more I think about it, this is another form of selfishness, too. We all know from the numbers on charitable giving that liberals are cheap-asses.




Oh they believe in giving alright, thats where the whole redistribution of wealth comes from. They try and force you and I to give more and more to Uncle Sugar so he can see it fit to dispense of properly.

234

But we're paranoid

You aren't paranoid if someone really is out to get you.

Nice post, Ace.

235 All that said, however, it's not a bad idea if everybody thinks they are trying to destroy the economy. I'm sure that's what Zero wants, anyway...

236 So you're walking down a road, minding your own business.  It's hot, you're tired and thirsty, and you have a few miles to go, but you'll get there.

Then a car pulls over.  "Say, you need a ride to town?"

"Nope," you say, "I'm good."

The guy gets out, along with a couple of his friends.  They force you into the back seat.

The guy drives you down the road.  As soon as he reaches town, he says, "That'll be twenty bucks."

Naturally you refuse to pay.  He offered you a ride and said nothing about charging you for it, so it was a gift.

He calls a cop, who arrests you for theft of services.  You explain the facts to the judge, who says, "You have no right to refuse to pay for the services you received.  30 days and $500 fine.  Oh, and pay the man his $20 and attorney's fees."

The way to end the problem of free riders is not to force people to take rides they don't want to pay for but to stop giving them free rides.

237

Come and get me Nancy, but beware the whizzing .223, 7.62, British 303, .45 .306 and the occasional claymore that just "MIGHT" go off when you knock on my door You know where I am, have been here for awhile......        Posted by: Todd at November 12, 2009 03:47 PM (LLOGQ)

Don't forget to mix up some foo gas.

238

well now that we have All found the same page and recognise it for what it is.. what are we going to do? Legally!

Legally?  Crap.  *unloads Mossberg*

239 Yeah, you/we are dealing with assholes who want prisoners to be released to work for ACORN,  but wants to make anti-socialist health care people go to jail?  And this surprises people>

This only the beginning of sending appoints to prison.   It is the fundamental way of spreading socialism.  I think the Russians called them gulogs. 

Yeah, yeah, I know.  It is not my fault I majored in history in college and they tried to indoctrination me?

240 ...but it is always accompanied by unplanned-for (?) additional losses of freedom to "correct" for all the systematic irrationalities and distortions it creates.

The only idiots for whom this sort of thing ends up being "unplanned" are the weak-minded simpletons that repeatedly vote for leftists hell-bent on taking as much of our freedom from us as they can.

241

Yes, 238, we can have no Ft. Sumpters.

Fortunately there are guys willing to stand in front of the cockroach and say "Eat Me!".

God bless 'em.

242  a way to feel good about themselves without actually having to get out there and do something genuinely charitable.

You're right.

And thank God none of them will give up their precious leisure time to write or visit me in prison the way Christians do.

243 What you have to remember when trying to understand these people is that

LEFTISTS ARE EVIL.

They aren't trying to make the world a better place through the wrong means.  They are working very hard to ruin as much of what is good and pure in the world as they can.

244

Crap, I meant Ft. Sumter at 241.

245 This is minor. Wait till they dredge up a reason to take over food production.


Soylent green is PEOPLE!

246 This is last gasp of the Flower Children, the Peter Pan generation that never grew up and still believes the rubbish they chanted about in 1968.

IDIOTS.

Posted by: Fresh Air at November 12, 2009 03:48 PM (uFqVv)

I think that is probably true for the people who vote for these goobers. But I am more and more convinced every day that the people running the show are intentionally doing this stuff to hurt us so they can use it as an excuse to take over even more of the country. Yeah, I think Pelosi and Reid are idiots. But there are a lot of indications that they're not even the people who are coming up with these ideas. These bill are being handed to them by various interest groups and the idiots in Congress just put their rubber stamps on it.

247

If they go full retard, and actually try to fine and jail people for not buying insurance, the resistance to it will snowball exponentially, and if the lunacy continues anyway, become violent fairly quickly. A lot of police will refuse to arrest people for this newly-invented "crime." A lot of people will refuse to be arrested. Insurrection, chaos. Progressives are attracted to that kind of thing, aren't they?

248

Pass health care by Christmas, watch unemployment reach 50% by Valentines day.

No, I don't think so.

Is it not so that most of the provisions of these bills, if passed, would not take effect for a few years? And then be implemented gradually, with some provisions not taking effect for 20 years?

If they just passed a bill that destroyed our health care system and crippled our economy, it would be too obvious. People would repeal the bill.

249  A lot of police will refuse to arrest people for this newly-invented "crime."

It's enforced by the IRS, so is it the FBI doing the taking-into-custody part?

Can you ask the IRS for a jury trial? 

250 Soylent green is PEOPLE!

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at November 12, 2009 03:56 PM (DIYmd)

Can't let all those aborted fetuses go to waste. And it would be poetic justice for the proles to eat their young literally.

251 Is it not so that most of the provisions of these bills, if passed, would not take effect for a few years? And then be implemented gradually, with some provisions not taking effect for 20 years?

From what I've read in the bills themselves, it seems that all of the taxes, penalties, etc would be going into effect immediately but the delivery of the government system wouldn't happen until 2013. The economic consequences could be seen very rapidly if that's the case.

252

I'm way late to the parade today, but back to #53, I'll be taking five or ten with me to Hell before I go to jail for that scrunt Pelosi. Springfield 45 with a 13 round clip and plenty of re-loads. Look for me on the front page of the NY Post. Of course, if I convert to Pisslam I'll be ok, right?

253 Here is what you get for free

254 @230 LGoPs

+1 on the "collectivism" label.

One thing, though (and not necessarily directed at you), it's a fool's errand to try to pigeonhole all the collectivists.  They're stratified.

At the bottom, you have the unwashed masses who are so worthless that all they can do is vote for a living.  In the middle, you have the imbeciles lacking the critical faculties to know any better.  At the top, you have the evil ones who rouse the rabble and ride their backs into power and fortune.

255

If everyone will recall, HillaryCare wanted to throw people in jail if they saw the doctor of their choice outside Hillary's system.

You can't have a socialist system without throwing people in jail or worse.  The problem is that socialism doesn't deliver the goods because it does not rely on price information to allocate goods and services.  Prices help optimize the supply of goods and services with respect to demand for them by harnessing the minds of everyone in the market, who help set prices with their decision to buy or not buy.  That's how a decentralized demand economy sets prices, by each person voting with his or her dollars.

Socialism, by contrast, attempts to impose prices on the market.  When people inevitably seek out the lower prices on the black market that always forms, the socialists must stop these defections with force lest their entire command economy unravel and their power with it.  That's why ObamaCare must imprison people who want to make a free choice outside the system.  Socialism can not work without coercion and fear.  And it doesn't work very well when it does work at all.

Places like Canada can get away with socialized health care because their citizens can escape to the US, which acts as a release valve for the market pressures that build up.  The next step is to throw people in jail for picking their own doctors.

In the most radical regimes, the rulers decide that traitors are to blame when their socialist paradise fails, as it always does.  The Khymer Rouge went on a hunt for traitors after their socialist agrarian reforms led to a crop failure.  They filled the Killing Fields with traitors who they claimed were sabotaging the perfect socialist society they envisioned would work perfectly in their radical fanatasies.

256

I've never understood the special reverence lefitsts have for the "hypocrite" insult.

It falls under the Rule for Radicals that you hold the enemy up to his own standards. The insult doesn't work against the Left because words are words and actions are something else. They don't care if they're hypocrites, but they perceive that it matters to you. It puts you in a position where you feel the need to defend yourself.

It doesn't move the conversation forward a single centimeter.

It's not intended to. To the contrary, it's supposed to stop the conversation (your end of it, anyway) dead in its tracks.

257
At the bottom, you have the unwashed masses who are so worthless that all they can do is vote for a living.  In the middle, you have the imbeciles lacking the critical faculties to know any better.  At the top, you have the evil ones who rouse the rabble and ride their backs into power and fortune.

Posted by: MikeO at November 12, 2009 04:04 PM (dYNrR)

Inner-Party, Outer-Party, Proletariat. George Orwell summed it up pretty well 60 years ago.

258 Although he never mentioned John C. Calhoun Beck started a meme yesterday that States need to take up the "nullification" bandwagon again and start declaring laws "unconstitutional and unenforceable" in their States.

One wonders how that would play out in 2009 compared to 1832. In 1832 Andrew Jackson threatened federal invasion of SC but subsequently relented on the tariffs of abomination.

Would Obama threaten invasion?  Discuss

259 They don't care if they're hypocrites, but they perceive that it matters to you.

They perceive wrongly...in this as in so much else.

260 Any chance that the enforcement of the law will be somewhat 'selective?' Some of us are more equal than others.

261

I don't debate Libs anymore. I just tell them to fuck off. I feel better.

262 How's my ass taste now?

263 For a proposed thing such as this, that seems so patently unconstitutional, I cringe to think that I have heard not a single objection from any member of government on constitutional grounds.  Maybe there have been such objections and I have missed them.  Maybe it won't matter.

264
I've heard zerO compare this to the requirement to buy auto insurance. WRONG! Try again, fuck face.

If you don't have a car or you don't drive - hello New Yorkers, you don't have to buy auto insurance. You take the smelly subway.

If you own a huge cattle ranch and only drive on your own private roads (hey, it happens) you don't have to buy auto insurance.

The roads are built and maintained by the government so they in turn have some say-so on the requirements of those who use them.

On the other hand, president fuck face, you and your assorted shit sacks in congress are trying to make me buy something because I am breathing. Well FUCK YOU! It ain't constitutional!

265 Any chance that the enforcement of the law will be somewhat 'selective?' Some of us are more equal than others.

Posted by: Wm T Sherman at November 12, 2009 04:16 PM (w41GQ)

You mean like the current fucking tax law? Count on it.

266

I don't debate Libs anymore. I just tell them to fuck off. I feel better.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 12, 2009 04:16 PM (dQdrY)

Are you a splinter group from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Rodents?

267 How's my ass taste now?

Posted by: Alex Jones at November 12, 2009 04:17 PM (Vz1WE)

When you grow a third hand so you can find it, I'll let you know.

268 249 A lot of police will refuse to arrest people for this newly-invented "crime."

It's enforced by the IRS, so is it the FBI doing the taking-into-custody part?

Can you ask the IRS for a jury trial? 

Posted by: HeatherRadishat November 12, 2009 04:00 PM (NtiET)

There aren't enough IRS nor FBI agents in the country to make the arrests. They would have to enlist local police-- that's done for other things, right?

269

Are you a splinter group from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Rodents?

Posted by: LGoPs at November 12, 2009 04:19 PM (tm/sN)

Yeah. We did not give up our weapons.

270 "The Right to Live Tax"©

271

Yeah. We did not give up our weapons.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 12, 2009 04:20 PM (dQdrY)

272 They would have to enlist local police-- that's done for other things, right?

I don't know, to be honest.  We need more law enforcement morons.

273 250 Soylent green is PEOPLE!

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at November 12, 2009 03:56 PM (DIYmd)

Can't let all those aborted fetuses go to waste. And it would be poetic justice for the proles to eat their young literally.

John Holdren, is that you!?

274 I was thinking about this prior to the passage of the House bill, because I thought that this might actually be a law I would break simply for the opportunity to challenge the constitutionality of the law.  After reading the section a few times, though, I saw what could be a fatal problem to a proposed challenge (and maybe someone with more constitutional law in the background could tell me I'm wrong).  The section regarding criminal penalties seems to impose liability on your failure to pay the income tax surcharge rather than the failure to purchase health insurance.  If that's the case, legal texts are replete with failed appeals on convictions for tax evasion, and I'm afraid that SCOTUS would inevitably rule the conviction was for the failure to pay income tax (constitutional), not for the failure to buy healthcare insurance (unconstitutional).

275 I don't know, to be honest.  We need more law enforcement morons.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at November 12, 2009 04:24 PM (NtiET)

The LEOs I might know, are forming small self-supportive groups, buying lots and lots of ammo, and keeping their mouths shut.

276 @258 Vic

Would Obama threaten invasion?

Probably not.  First, he'd get pissy.  Then, he'd systematically choke-off federal dollars going to these states.  Then, he'd make a direct appeal to his SEIU and ACORN zombies to rise-up and make life hell in the "nullifying" states.

The kenyan princess would never act directly when he can be a gross caricature of a bitchy, conniving soap-opera queen, instead.  Just ask Alice Palmer and Jack Ryan.

277 Three squares, cable TV, internet, cool orange jump suit. Count me in. Fuck health insurance.

278

I've got a delivery of soma here. Anyone want to sign for it?

279 I sometimes think that liberals would rather have uniformly horrible health care, so long as the awfulness was spread out impartially.

The key to the leftist mind. All peoples and outcomes should be equal, and if that means we all live in ditches, so be it. Another reason to revisit Evan Sayet's address to Heritage.org from 2004, available on youtube. He explains the leftwing mind perfectly.

I've heard zerO compare this to the requirement to buy auto insurance. WRONG! Try again, fuck face.

Don't forget another item that demolishes the phony analogy with medical care. If you wreck your car, you cannot go to a body shop, say "fix it, I got no insurance or money," and have them do it for free. Require body shops to do this and owning cars will become as expensive as owning houses.

280 "The revolution is successful. But survival depends on drastic measures. Your continued existence represents a threat to the well-being of society. Your lives mean slow death to the more valued members of the country. Therefore, I have no alternative but to sentence you to death. Your execution is so ordered, signed Barack Obama, President of the United States."

281 What we really need to do, when the Repubs retake Congress (an if, o fcourse), is DEMAND that they absolutely and completely repeal all this crap the Dems have been passing. Nothing else will do, only a 100% rollback, period.

282

On a personal level, I go 'round and 'round with myself as to whether Nazi imagery is "civil" or helpful, politically: On one side I know for a fact that socialism tends in this direction. Every. Single. Time. Even in socialist states where fascism is avoided -- Britain, say -- it is nevertheless the case that the citizenry there exists under a much-diminished concept of "freedom" than your average American would find tolerable, or even imaginable.

On the other hand, I doubt the effectiveness of such imagery, for the simple fact that few can imagine such things, they seem too speculative and too impossible to contemplate

The imagery is ineffective simply because people are intentinally ignorant.  They don't want to believe that we can be so close to fascism so they refuse to connect the dots between socialism and fascism.  The song from Snow White, Wishing Will Make It So, should be the Liberal theme song. 

283

Even Reagan could not get rid of the Dept. of Education.

You can not unfuck a massive social welfare program.

284 Talk about your irony.  Obama care will force everyone to buy health insurance so people aren't getting health care for free and sending you the bill.  If you don't buy health insurance, you will go to jail...where you will get health care for free.

285 Nice post.

286

Obama care will force everyone to buy health insurance so people aren't getting health care for free and sending you the bill.  If you don't buy health insurance, you will go to jail...where you will get health care for free.

This makes sense only in the Liberal mind.  Those people are just plain crazy.

287

OPM is now claiming authority to weed out every former political appointee from being considered for ANY federal positions at EVERY level of the GS Pay Scale, for both the competitive AND excepted service – made RETROACTIVE for the past 5 years! (This is a new, extra layer of scrutiny previously reserved for SES hires.) OPM will now check the recommended hires to “ensure they comply with merit system principles and applicable civil service laws.”

Gotta keep conservatives out of the new medical rationing bureaucracies.

If we are not going to have a revolution, you might want to reconsider being affiliated with the Rs.

288
And so, we who once were citizens become subjects.

289 Great post.  I read the site daily, and this one stood out.

290 Time to reload more ammo and buy that EBW (Evil Black Weapon) I've had my eye on.

291  These bill are being handed to them by various interest groups and the idiots in Congress just put their rubber stamps on it.

Posted by: Mandy P. at November 12, 2009 03:56 PM (MK6Kx) -

Ah, a fellow traveller.

292 Will not comply with the mandate.  In fact, I will be intentionally dropping myself from health insurance coverage if this shit actually passes, just so I can intentionally not pay the fine.  They can't do this.

293 The state here -- Pelosi, Reid, Obama -- are claiming that they can imprison people for behavior that has never before even been hinted as being a crime, on the theory that such behavior constitutes unpatriotic economic behavior which is detrimental to the state's balance sheets.

I don't know if it's been covered anywhere but Tapper (iirc) asked Odummy directly about the jail penalty and the misdirection immediately began without denying it; the slimy cocksucker doesn't want this discussed at all.

294 Then, he'd make a direct appeal to his SEIU and ACORN zombies to rise-up and make life hell in the "nullifying" states.

That wouldn't have much impact here.

295 Debbie Halvorson in Illinois giggled about it on WLS yesterday.  She makes Pelosi look like a Mensa president.

296

"Til shade is gone,
til water is gone
Into the shadow with teeth bared
Screaming defiance with the last breath
To spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day."

297 Even Reagan could not get rid of the Dept. of Education.

Reagan had a Dem congress. In order to "unfuck" the system you need a solid majority of conservative in the House and at least 60 conservatives in the Senate.

That is tough since at least 10 R's are RINOs.

298 I've said it before, I would rather be a convicted felon than a tax paying citizen if all the Obama agenda is passed.  Felons will definitely have more standing in an Obama America.  We see how much the State loathes the tax payers already, I'm sure that won't get any better as the debt continues to explode and the federal government grows ever larger and more ravenous.

299 People are going to start appreciating the substantive differences between a pure American and a dual citizen who can flee when things get really bad. I wonder how many people will start to rethink their inane idea that dual citizens are included in the class of natural born citizens. I'm not saying that fleeing is the appropriate response (I'm more of a secession advocate, myself, to save the American creed, which is the most important point) but, as with the Soviet Union and other authoritarian states that dictate what you will and will not do, in all spheres of behavior, those who were able to leave enjoyed a great benefit and added choice that many others only wish they had.

Anyone who remembers the refuseniks of the 70's recalls the situation; you could legally apply for a visa to emigrate (no one stopped you from doing this) but you would be jailed for filling out that application and expressing a desire to emigrate - not to mention those who had knowledge or wealth that was deemed integral to state functions.

For anyone who thinks that analogy is off-base, the health insurance jailing provision is not so far off, and we still have a long way to go with the left changing the nature of the US.

300 Now think about this.  This Socialist Health (take from the rich, and give to to Government) Care bill is so bad, that they have exempted themselves from its provisions. Now, take this one step forward, their staff, direct and indirect are also exempt from the jail provisions. Step Two, how many more are exempt? OH! I almost forget, guess who will pay for them , and their employee health care. So we get slamed twice.   

301 That is tough since at least 10 R's are RINOs.

Posted by: Vic at November 12, 2009 05:21 PM (CDUiN)

So, translated into pessimist, ain't gonna happen. O would veto anyway. They'd need two-thirds and keep them all in line. Wanna bet cash on that?

302 It would take a two-term rock ribbed, fire breathing conservative president with super majorities the entire eight years to even make a sizable dent in the unfucking the system task.  It would be a full time job, essentially the only thing the president would be able to focus on, the entire eight years as well.

303 Seems like a lot of fancy words and nomenclature Ace to say this unconstitutional- period full stop. Congress can scream Commerce Clause all they want, but the fact is they can not create an entitlement, force people to participate and jail them if they refuse.

Fact is though- if they put in a clause requiring the Speaker and Senate Majority leader to get lobotomies, permanently confine them to mental institutions I will fold like a lawn chair and tell my Senator to vote yes.

304 302 It would take a two-term rock ribbed, fire breathing conservative president with super majorities the entire eight years to even make a sizable dent in the unfucking the system task. Posted by: kefka at November 12, 2009 05:26 PM (n1uMU)

Such a President and Congress would be thwarted by the federal judiciary even if they tried. The courts are constantly ruling on mandates of their own that they impose on the federal government and states without any consequence to the courts, at all.

We have a feral government and it will never be domesticated again. That is just the sad truth of our situation. We went full-stupid "Democracy" and it killed us, just as the Founders had feared. Now, we just wait for the final breath.

305 "Time to toss the dice"

306 Ace - kudos on a fantastically written piece!

307

Seriously, how is this different from "Bitch, get out there, and makes me my money. Don't make me jail a bitch."?

Pimp government?

308 It isn't just the fines and imprisonment under the health care bill that gets the national socialist seal of approval. It's the fact that Obama is now seeking to remove retroactively, his political enemies, i.e. republicans, from their civil service jobs that they have held since 2004. NO OTHER ADMINISTRATION, since civil service was instituted in the late 18th century has attempted to do such a thing. When republicans tried to remove a handful of political appointees in the US Attorney's offices, the democraps went ballistic screaming for special prosecutors and for the prosecutors to be reinstated. Where are the democraps screaming bloody murder now. For if this precedent stands, then it will behoove the next republican president, in 2013, to not only remove all Obama democrap civil servants from the current administration, but to then also remove those who were appointed during the years 1993-2001, the Clinton Administration. Once a democrap Administration has approved such witch hunts, it will then become open season.  Moreover, when the republicans recapture Congress in 2010, or at leas the House, there will be many investigations into this socialist witch hunt that Mr. Obama might not be too pleased with.

309 there will be many investigations into this socialist witch hunt that Mr. Obama might not be too pleased with.

Posted by: eaglewingz08 at November 12, 2009 05:40 PM (dv8zz)

And he'll pardon anyone who needs it. And no new employees will be fired. And they win again.

310 Go back and read it this time.

The point was that Reagan had no chance.

311

And he'll pardon anyone who needs it....

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 12, 2009 05:43 PM (dQdrY)

Speaking of pardons, does anybody doubt that Il Douche will free the murdering cockwipe Mumia on his way out?

312 The point was that Reagan had no chance.

Posted by: Vic at November 12, 2009 05:48 PM (CDUiN)

I read it. The point was, no one ever will.

313

i'm at the point where i will drop my insurance on purpose if they ever pass this pile of shit. i'll be waiting for this botoxed up zombie to knock on my door.

314

Ace, this post was great. I mean just...wow.

315 And as they say "you ain't seen nothing yet" wait till cap and trade is passed, you will be jailed for things like using the wrong toilet paper, read the book three felonies a day it will open your eyes we have been lurching towards a police state for years now with the radical left in charge we a racing to it.

316

Time to get that fake Algerian Citizen paperwork going!

Rockwell Assphuck III has a nice ring to it.

317 Mike Vanderboegh is right. This is an Intolerable Act.

318 Oh oh oh oh oh here's a question - does this mean illegal aliens who show up at emergency rooms will now be sent to jail for not having insurance?  And if not, well, that's going to go over really really really well.

Ahem.

From the WSJ article:

Sec. 59b (pp. 297-299) says that when you file your taxes, you must include proof that you are in a qualified plan. If not, you will be fined thousands of dollars. Illegal immigrants are exempt from this requirement.

So, there you are, then. Those illegal aliens will be just fine. Happy now?

319 The fact of the matter is, look at IRS.  They will only jail you if you are a high profile person, say a Pete Rose. he paid everything back, with interest, and still went to jail. Usually, they want to strip you of your assets & wealth. leave you pennieless, but not send you to jail.  there is not enough room for the tens of thousands.  BUT Obama may set up special camps to house vermin like us who won't pay. Call it Political internment.  Don't sell Obama short on this point.   Chicago Justice!!!

320 I have nothing to quibble with on Ace's main post. If you want to see the whole thing laid in more detail with counter-arguments refuted then read Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom".

321 alexthechick:

I'm with you.  I have absolutely no intention of buying medical insurance now.  Let them arrest me.  I draw the line on this.  I hope a lot of people feel the same.

Qwinn

322 Another cool feature of this Pelosi-care legislation that they passed is that children of Federal employees can get covered under their parents' plan up to age 27.  However, the rest of you twentysomethings get fined.  Ask your COngresscritter about this!

323 While we are on the topic of fascist power grabs, have you seen this (with emphasis added):

From Washington Examiner:
Don't buy those carbon credits just yet
By: David Freddoso 11/10/09 8:15 AM EST

...The cap-and-trade bill -- both the Senate version that passed the Environment and Public Works committee and the version that already passed the House -- effectively declares a climate emergency if world greenhouse gas levels climb above 450 parts per million.  (The number appears to have been chosen arbitrarily.) According to the Pacific Northwest National lab, which wrote in response to Vitter's inquiries, the world's air will hit that level of greenhouse gases next year, in 2010, if undeveloped nations do not accept carbon limits...

The result is a a scenario in which the law not only permits but in fact requires the president to “direct all Federal agencies to use existing statutory authority to take appropriate actions...to address shortfalls" in emissions cutbacks.

The bill's language places an unusually broad mandate upon the president to act in the event of this "emergency" situation."

Go to www.ClimateDepot.com for latest.

Also note that CO2 levels vastly exceeded this limit, way back in dinosaur time. The world didn't end then either.

324 This argument was lost when everyone was forced to particapate in Social Security Ponzi scheme.  The only difference between Madoff and the US government is that Madoff's was by choice. and the fact the Americans continue to employ Liberals while Madoff sits in jail.

325 Tell ya' what, morons.

I'm investing in those private prisons. Gonna make me a mint.

_{'Course, all that money I'm gonna make is gonna be paid in dollars, so I guess I'm effed no matter what I do. Shit.}

326

progressoverpeace:

I just keep thinking of Fahrenheit 451 - Bradbury talks about a society that moves so fast (and is so deeply immoral) that it just spins round and round like a centrifuge.  Eventually, the "centrifuge" breaks and the society flies apart.

He also uses the fire analogy - everything and everyone becomes disposable and ends up in the fire.  The society just keeps burning itself up until nothing is left but ashes.

More and more, I feel like I'm riding in the centrifuge - either that, or I'm trying to escape the fire. 

327 Pelosi? I'd definitely hit that.

328

Conscientious Objector to War, but not taxes?

 WTF Inc is on line one, sir

329

talk about an "unfunded mandate." you know there will be plenty of people that fall through the cracks on this - people that won't quite qualify for the freebie insurance, but can't afford to buy insurance without greatly impacting thier lifestyle. i mean, i know i probably make too much to qualify, yet there is no way that i can buy insurance. no way. with student loans, car payments, insurance on the auto, phone, etc., there is no way. i suppose i could go without eating.

330

They'll get their money. Why would anyone think they'd care about what happens to your credit score?

And ride the bus. They prefer that, anyway.

331

I'm gonna throw myself down a flight of stairs at a Federal Bldg. Make the bastards pay for my pain, suffering and all future healthcare.

It's a nice idea, but alas, I could never really do it.

332 and you just fucking wait till the next set of restrictions come in.  the government will pay for healthcare, so bad-health activities will be verboten, just like they now feel free to dictate speed limits on the highways (reasonable) and executive pay at bailed-out companies (not).  3-egg omelet for breakfast?  i don't think so.  uncle sam is footing your healthcare bill.  you'd better be up to do calisthenics in front of the telescreen extra early tomorrow.

333 "Socialism never attends a party without an escort of coercive state behavior."

It's writing like that that makes me renew my AoS Membership.

Bravo.

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If we went back in time four or five years and asked them, how many liberals could look forward in time and see themselves in support of throwing a person in prison, for not obeying the govt?

 

336 "If the "rich" refuse, the IRS is the agent of confiscation.  So they'll go for the money first.  Lien on the house? wired right out of the account? 25k if not a willfull violation.  250k if found to be willfull.  If you don't pay, Jailtime. (It's an "or" not "and" test, I think)"


That's the rub.  Back in the day, we fought the Redcoats mano-a-mano.  Seizing Washington's farm would have required army-sized physical force applied on-site.  These days we CANNOT rebel in this way.  The bullet to our gut will be an electronic one, delivered by a faceless bureaucrat hunched over a computer on top of a beige desk in the bowels of the IRS.  If you don't pay, you won't be arrested until your savings, IRA/401k, wages, and house have all been seized, leaving your penniless and raped of your entire life's work.

337 153

I meant all food production. A depression would be reason enough. You might avoid a need for healthcare for a while, but you have to eat.

The largest body counts in the history of communism where the result of collectivizing the farms.

 

There has been a lot of talk worldwilde among the 'elites' that using bio-fuels (corn here in the USA) is immoral because it turns food into gasoline and how dare we let that happen. Betcha the statists in DC would love to take over America's farmland & farmers (red staters) and make wage slaves of them. No more bio-fuels, grow what we tell you!

 That would end well, look how DC has completely dropped the ball on H1N1 flu vaccine - promised 120 million doses by now, and we have what, maybe 2 million for the whole country?  Collectivizing the farms ALWAYS results in famine and death.

This depression we are heading into is deliberate, they are toying with us, getting the stock market to bounce back through chicanery, the same way they tanked it last year at this time in order to win the election.  So the Dow is up, but everything else is down including employment and they're betting we won't be able to see the dots or connect them.

 

338 So does that mean that Ace is now a paranoid lunatic now too?

Welcome to the dark side Ace!  Cookies are on the buffet.

339 One could easily make the argument that socialist states that have avoided fascism (such as Britain) have been able to do so simply because the US would not allow it to happen and they know that.  With a socialist US, seems a lot of these states would have license to move to fascism, enforcing a more global cause.  And the US would no longer be in the way.

340 They don't care if they're hypocrites, but they perceive that it matters to you.

They perceive wrongly...in this as in so much else.

Posted by: Monty at November 12, 2009 04:13 PM (4Pleu)

For you perhaps Monty.  But the Republican "leadership" falls for it every single time.  For instance, there was Eric Cantor as mentioned earlier, playing nice and getting his ass handed to him.  Again.

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...

...nope, it's gone, false alarm. Carry on.

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345 This <em>Fahrenheit 450 ppm</em>-crowd spent the last eight years screaming at the top of their lungs that George W. Bush was a dictator.

Then their guy gets in ...and the first thing they do is declare a State of Climate Emergency at their organic coffee bar putsch, enact the Climate Purity Laws, and engage in Berlin Wall Denial Syndrome, proffering  Cult-of-Personality video communiques to the outside world from deep within the White House Bunker. Next, they're issuing frantic orders, moving phantom divisions of saved-or-created Scamulus workers to and fro, while scribbling make-believe manifestos assuring the Good Burghers that all is goink vell on the Ft. Hood front.

I'm expecting Jesse Owens to win the Olympics at any moment, except they blew that, too.

It shows a complete lack of historical perspective to give any president that much power. After all, the opposition party may one day assume power again. Or is that also canceled when the stink reaches 450 parts per gulag?

Health care, nationalized industries, climate change--they seem like separate issues. But they're really all one issue: power. Pure, unchallengeable State Power.

It's as plain as the nose on his face. And that funny little mustache under it.

346 Bravo Ace.  You knocked that one right out of the park.

347 ditto and linked.

348 Goodness, you got that one right on the money!
I fear for the Republic...

349 It would have been the same with Romney. Do you remember the NH debate where he said he knew how to get rid of people that were a problem?

Next on the agenda: outlaw unhappiness (not yours, mine), or twenty years in prison.

350
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