1

I'd like to give a shout out to Priscilla Queen Of The Desert, best LGBT movie ever.

2 You mean the same way pot was legalized all over? Because I bet you have even stronger curves on that subject.

3 So it looks like gay marriage of some kind is inevitable in a few decades.

Also inevitable?  Chaos.  (With apologies to Kratos)

4 I'm 29 and I've always opposed gay marriage (and its beard civil unions). But I hear that in the end there will only be chaos, anyway, so I don't know that it matters.

5 Isn't this analysis equivalent to saying that in the future Democrats will totally take over, since young people support Democrats so much more than the average?

But it's not true, because as youngsters mature and experience real life, they become more conservative and republican.

I predict the same effect with gay marriage.

6 Ace will be able to marry in a few years. That's nice.

7 If this issue was about gay rights we would have civil unions, marriage in all but name, as the law of the land with very little problem.  As we all know its not about gay rights at all.  People will learn that when more and more of this stuff gets passed into law and the activists don't stop pushing for a second.

8 I knew it.  Bunch of queers up in New England.  Cahcksuckahs.

9
Actually I could care less about what two people do in their bedroom. If they want to get married I could care less. It's the agenda getting pushed on everyone I have a problem with.

Leave it to the states and let the people decide.

10 As for us young'uns getting more conservative, I really do think it will happen. Marriage and kids have a way of maturing people. E.g., pot and sleeping around don't seem like a biggie at 23 (even for the ones who don't do it), but pot and sleeping around at 50 is just pathetic.

I think gay marriage, like other sexual mores, probably works the same way. Exotic and abstract to the young, not so much to the ... seasoned.

11 As we all know its not about gay rights at all.  People will learn that when more and more of this stuff gets passed into law and the activists don't stop pushing for a second.

Posted by: kefka at November 06, 2009 05:26 PM (n1uMU)

Damned humans.  All they want to do is hump our wymins.

12 I too, don't particularly care what it's called, but it HAS to include 1st amendment protections for Churches and people who refuse to do business on religious grounds. That is sadly lacking, so it is NO for me right now.

It seems those who wish to make this a  civil rights issue believe that anti-discrimination statutes somehow abrogate the bill of rights. Until they square that circle, I'm not a fan.

13 but pot and sleeping around at 50 is just pathetic.

But pot and sleeping around when you're dead?  Priceless.

14

Age probably is a factor, but so is the personal experience of matrimony.

When people actually get married and realize it's not just a nicey-nice thing to do (or a mere legal arrangement), they understand that it makes no sense for people of the same sex to marry.

15 ATTN M&Ms:  Rep. John Shadegg, R - Arizona, was just on with Judge Nappy and said the votes for deathcare are slipping.  There's another rally tomorrow at 1.  Please be there if you can.  I went on Thursday and it was exhilarating -- no lie.

16 It's just not fair.  Lucky for me, I was family first before lover, so I had all the hospital visitation rights, but it's gotta suck for lesbians and stuff.

17

We should all get the states out of the marriage business. States and Feds should not recognize the differences between married and non-married people; tax exemptions for mortgages could be allowed if defined as 2 people on the mortgage of a single family dwelling they live in. It also gives the polyamory people a bone.

This would allow marriage to be defined solely by religion, which it was before states got involved. It would fix property laws and divorce alimony monstrosities, give rights to non-married couples, etc.

Of course, the Gay Marriage Movement won't accept it, because this isn't aboptu marriage, but forcing acceptance of gays and giving them power over straights (see hate crime legislation). Thoughtful homosexuals are against it, because they realize that in allowing the government to define your status, you are giving them the power to define you away.

 

18 Sad how effective the propaganda has been on younger people. I guess a continuous multimedia bombardment and shame for anyone who dares disagree is effective.

19 They can already get powers of attorney to have the same rights.  So obviously it's about something else...

Like making religion accept their lifestyle.  Like making churches unable to refuse their  facilities to gay commitment ceremonies... or going after people for sepakign out against their way of life.

This is about the thought police.  Tolerance fell by the wayside many moons ago.  It is no longer acceptable for me to be tolerant of others I disagree with, I must embrace their way of life...

or else.

Oh, and let me give a shout out to Obama.  Funemployment rocks !

20 See, all those 'Heather has two Mommies', and the 'Two Princes' books are paying dividends.

Just ask our new "Safe Schools' Commissar.

Just don't ask him for whom the schools are 'safe' for.

21 Mوtenloch: "I think there should be some legal way for same sex couples to get the same power of attorney that married couples automatically enjoy. And I don't particularly care what it's called."

I hate to get all hypertechnical, but I think the accepted parlance is "butt buddies."

Just so you know.

22 I guess a continuous multimedia bombardment and shame for anyone who dares disagree is effective.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 06, 2009 05:34 PM (PQY7w)

Hmmm... that's an interesting idea.  Mind if I use it?

23

This also needs some consideration:

IMO,   When 18 year old guys are asked about gay marriage, instinctually they think about hot lesbians.   This tends to skew the results.  Blame Hollywood.

 

24 I think gay men should be allowed to be a heterosexual couple!

25
Also inevitable?  Chaos.  (With apologies to Kratos)

Morgenholz, Stealer of Thunder.

26 What about marriage between a man and a sheep? How did that poll? If the sheep has to go to the vet, will the man get visitation rights? Sure, but try to get that sheep in to visit him in the hospital....

27 It's wrong that you won't let gays be in a heterosexual relationship.

28 I think there should be some legal way for same sex couples to get the same power of attorney that married couples automatically enjoy. And I don't particularly care what it's called.

Isn't it called a Power of Attorney?   A simple declaration signed in witness of a Public Notary? 

Personally, I think government should be out of the marriage game.  The only reason they acknowledge it is so they can fuck up the tax code more, right?  Get rid of that one issue,  then why would anyone care?  That's assuming that the tax code was changed from income to some sort of fair tax.

29
What about putting a horse in the Senate?  Makes just as much sense and is just as appropriate.

30
Gays didn't seem too interested in Marriage until AIDS hit and they couldn't access their partner's insurance coverage. And insurance coverage is not why I support polygamy... nope.

31 It's wrong that you won't let gays be in a heterosexual relationship.

Posted by: Z Ryan at November 06, 2009 05:39 PM (cMo6P)

Somebody better not tell my Dad it's against the rules.

32 I used to not give a f*ck about gay marriage. Then I ran into some of the proponents of GM over at Fark who have to qualify as the worst spokespeople for a movement ever. I went from not giving a shit to thinking 'f*ck 'em' after listening reading their diatribes about GM. I can't muster an ounce of sympathy for people who totally lack the ability to explain a position but instead launch hate-filled screeds at heterosexual people.

Fuck 'em.

33 That angle is considered in my statement too, Editor.

34 Reason #1 for my opposition to gay marriage. Gays are typically political opponents to conservatives and the longer we can keep them occupied fighting for civil unions/marriage the better.  If gays win this tomorrow the left wing will just march to the next issue and begin hammering away at something I actually care about.

Gay marriage and legalized pot are forgone conclusions but lets force the opposition to expend treasure. time and sweat to get there.

35 28 I think there should be some legal way for same sex couples to get the same power of attorney that married couples automatically enjoy. And I don't particularly care what it's called.

Isn't it called a Power of Attorney?   A simple declaration signed in witness of a Public Notary? 

I believe that to get the same medical, financial, legal, etc. power over each other's affairs that married hetero couples have would actually require several different  Power of Attorney documents. But I could be wrong.

36 Is that an age thing or generational thing.  If it is age then that would imply that youngsters are going to get more conservative as they get older.  If it is generational then those peoples opinions won't change as they grow older and the next crop of youngsters will be even more liberal and this country will be completely fucked.

37 Fuck you homos.  And I'm still pissed anyone's watching the NFL; they should be boycotted.

Now I'm going to watch a sport any red-blooded American male can get behind: soccer

38 "Over time you'd expect the 18-29 year-olds to become somewhat more conservative, but I doubt that they'll change that much. So it looks like gay marriage of some kind is inevitable in a few decades."

That's a rather large assumption to make.  There are currently a lot of 18-29 year olds getting fucked over by Social Security taxes at the moment.  Want to bet they continue to be 'indifferent' to that as well?

39 i wonder what a similar poll graph on polygamy would look like

40 Life is a Hershey Highway
I wanna ride it
all night long

41

Hey, I have a great idea.  Let's eliminate marriage altogether.  Also, chaos with bacon.  Twice the awesome.

42 What about putting a horse in the Senate?  Makes just as much sense and is just as appropriate.


Most Senate offices already have half the horse.

43

Gays getting married, ok.

Gabriel, that is where my support stops

44
Most Senate offices already have half the horse.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at November 06, 2009 05:52 PM (r8/Km)

That's all that's needed in Congress.  Horses are known for the bites. 

45 The MSM is not covering the rallies at all.   I thought that no one showed up until someone on here said there were quite a few folks.

46 "42 What about putting a horse in the Senate?  Makes just as much sense and is just as appropriate.


Most Senate offices already have half the horse.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at November 06, 2009 05:52 PM (r8/Km)"

Is it the ass? 

47 jack#32: I'm the same way. The anti-prop-8 trolls I've seen even HERE support the harassment campaigns against the people who signed the petition. Push them a little and they will recommend ending the secret ballot "because we have a right to know who the haters are".

Someone needs to compile a dossier on these trolls, here and elsewhere, to show young people where they can find, in practice, the real intolerance.

48  That chart is whacked. It shows a majority in Maine in support of gay marriages -- yet the election they just held makes it clear that's not true.

Activist gays don't really want either civil unions or marriages. They just want to use government power to force people to approve their relationships. In the process many of them get to exercise their fascist hate against "breeders" and Christians, so the activists see it as a win either way the elections go.

49 #35 - They make General PoA's. I got the wife one every time I deployed while in the Navy. Which is funny. We were married and I still had to get her one because of issues that came up while I was gone. My point is... there are things that even married spouses can't do on behalf of the other. So, what's the incentive to get married nowadays? Religious beliefs aside. Paternity tests are independent of marriage. Insurance can be bought for dependents regardless of relationship to the policy holder. Other than taxes, what's the legal benefit to marriage?

50
Same-sex marriage hasn't been legal since the Civil War.

51 13times#34: Gays not having their unions recognised by the state doesn't hurt the wider society very much. The war-on-some-drugs does cause more damage than it's worth; and I'd argue it outweighs the tactical "advantage" of Thus Far No Further.

52

Remember that part in Brokeback Mountain where Jake and Heath get all hot and sweaty with each other?

Me neither.

53 Wow, the poll says most people in Maine support it. Surprised they haven't put it on the ballot there eh?

54

The hate in this post is starting to remind me of San Francisco in the seventies.


*cue crocodile tears*

55 This graph tells me that the public school system needs to be jettisoned.

56 Inevitable? Bull
Just look at the figures they have for Maine and compare them to the latest poll they had on Tuesday. The numbers are almost exactly reversed for all and that was with the entire state government and every news outlet in the state supporting it.

Will you eventually have civil unions most everywhere? Yes, but that's mostly the stop with the whining already effect.

Why? Because it is a word and not just a label. Marriage is a word like water or air or life. It's definition is timeless and universal. It's not up to a judge or some legislators to mess with. Only the people themselves can affect such change and there has been a reason throughout history to do so.

Young people support everything...then they get older....more importantly then they have children and find it's they who have changed mostly, not the world.
And they are happy with it, because that's exactly as it should be.

57 DaMav, it's the "likely voter" effect. When you poll adults, even if you do it fairly, you will get a bunch of 23 year old potheads who, like, would TOTALLY be politically active, you know, like Rage Against The Machine or some other awesome band, you know... but... getting to the booth is, like... effort.

58 To me this issue is like a lot of sports teams.  I'm not very passionate about those teams, but the people backing the teams are assholes.

(Seriously, the most annoying supporters of GM I have known are straight.  It's like they're trying to prove some sort of cred somehow.)

59 48  That chart is whacked. It shows a majority in Maine in support of gay marriages -- yet the election they just held makes it clear that's not true.

The overall support in Maine is pretty close to 50-50. The fact that gay marriage there was rejected by 53% of the voters doesn't seem like a big difference.

60 DaMav, it's the "likely voter" effect.

Meh. The whole poll is whacked because it doesn't reflect what really happens when people can make a choice without a pollster to cluck disapprovingly at their answer.

61 28 I think there should be some legal way for same sex couples to get the same power of attorney that married couples automatically enjoy. And I don't particularly care what it's called.

Isn't it called a Power of Attorney?   A simple declaration signed in witness of a Public Notary?

Yep.  None of that is a problem.  The real reason for gay marriage is twofold: First, partner medical benefits.  Second, and more importantly, social approval of the lifestyle.

That's the reason the movement is going on in places with socialized medicine.  There's really no practical reason for it.  The goal is to get "society" to put its stamp of approval on the relationship.  I think there's also a secondary anti-religion goal to force clergy to perform the ceremony.

People who say gay marriage is "illegal" are either being stupid or misleading.  You can have a ceremony.  You can have flowers and a caterer.  You can get a judge or the minister of an unorthodox religion or anybody at all to preside.  You can both wear a dress or both wear tuxes or whatever.  You can have a reception.  You can have a cake.  You can drink and dance until you collapse.  You can even call it a "wedding" and a "marriage".  Nobody will arrest you.

But the state will not issue a license.

Furthermore, why would you want it?  Ask any heterosexual guy, is marriage a choice?  Nope.  She leans over while you're sitting on the couch and says, "We ought to get married."  Some choice.  Ultimatum is more like it.  It's really, "Give me half your stuff or I'm outta here."

At least gays have the option to say, "We can't really do it anyway because of those mean, nasty bigots.  Oh, darnit, I just wish we could.  Ah, well.  Now do you mind, I'm watching TV."

62 Inevitable unless folks start getting smarter as they get older.  That's been known to happen in the past.

63 The overall support in Maine is pretty close to 50-50. The fact that gay marriage there was rejected by 53% of the voters doesn't seem like a big difference.

It's the difference between law and not-law.

But I get your point -- they'll keep holding these referendums until the voters make the "correct" choice. Then the matter will never ever come up for a vote again.

64 49 #35 - They make General PoA's. I got the wife one every time I deployed while in the Navy. Which is funny. We were married and I still had to get her one because of issues that came up while I was gone. My point is... there are things that even married spouses can't do on behalf of the other. So, what's the incentive to get married nowadays? Religious beliefs aside. Paternity tests are independent of marriage. Insurance can be bought for dependents regardless of relationship to the policy holder. Other than taxes, what's the legal benefit to marriage?

Posted by: 2549 at November 06, 2009 06:00 PM (WYkJI)

Funny how in the 1970s, the big political issue about marriage was that "marriage is just a piece of paper."  That, and destigmatizing childbearing out of wedlock.

65 29
What about putting a horse in the Senate?  Makes just as much sense and is just as appropriate.

Posted by: Dang Straights at November 06, 2009 05:40 PM (Haq+B)

My God, man, don't you know where the line is?

66 But I get your point -- they'll keep holding these referendums until the voters make the "correct" choice. Then the matter will never ever come up for a vote again.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at November 06, 2009 06:10 PM (n2wxa)

--No, that never happens

67
Is this the flame thread?

68 Furthermore, why would you want it?  Ask any heterosexual guy, is marriage a choice?  Nope.

Wrong.

69 Of course, the Gay Marriage Movement won't accept it, because this isn't aboptu marriage,

As a gay man in a long-term committed relationship, I feel I have Special Rights(tm) to comment on this.

It is very much about marriage, which has two aspects:

1. The boatload of special rights that straight couples currently get by default once they get the magic document and government blessing for politically-correct behavior

-And-

2. The word.  "Marriage."  It's vital, because it implies "good as you".  As in, "my gay partnership is just as good as your straight partnership".

Naturally, if your attitude toward homosexuality is "We urge the continued persecution of gays until they abandon their sinful lifestyle" (whatever bullshit rhetoric you're laying on top of it), then it makes sense that you would hate #1 and especially hate #2.

Myself, I don't support either of the two planks I listed (above).  Those are just what supporters of gay marriage want.  Instead, I support abolishing marriage for gays and straights.  No special rights for anyone!  It will never fly, of course, but that's my opinion.  Separate marriage and state.  Period.

but forcing acceptance of gays and giving them power over straights (see hate crime legislation).

You are conflating two different issues (gay marriage and thought crimes).  Since I called it "thought crimes", you can probably guess how I feel about "hate crimes".

But "power over straights"?  Only if you interpret that as some kind of terrible burden if you can no longer insult, slander, hate, bash, persecute, demean, or otherwise attempt to diminish the quality of life of gay people through conscious action.

Thoughtful homosexuals are against it, because they realize that in allowing the government to define your status, you are giving them the power to define you away.

I agree: abolish straight marriage, because allowing the government to define your status gives them the power to define you away.  Kudos to you for recognizing that some gay people can be "thoughtful".

70
Your daddy is so gay his sphincter lisps when he farts.

71 I support gay marriage.  Heterosexuals are the ones who have destroyed modern marriage; gay marriage won't affect that one way or the other.

But I do think that many gay marriage activist types are entirely focused on symbolically being treated as equals by society, and haven't thought through the implications of divorce.

Ah, that feeling of empowerment they'll get when their ex gets the house...  We're here, we're queer, and we're paying alimony!

72 68 Furthermore, why would you want it?  Ask any heterosexual guy, is marriage a choice?  Nope.

Wrong.

Don't you believe that marriage should be one man nagged by one woman?

73

ohhhhh, it's a flamer thread.

I sorry.

74 19 They can already get powers of attorney to have the same rights.  So obviously it's about something else...

Like making religion accept their lifestyle.  Like making churches unable to refuse their  facilities to gay commitment ceremonies... or going after people for sepakign out against their way of life.

This is about the thought police.  Tolerance fell by the wayside many moons ago.  It is no longer acceptable for me to be tolerant of others I disagree with, I must embrace their way of life...

or else.

Oh, and let me give a shout out to Obama.  Funemployment rocks !

Posted by: Sam at November 06, 2009 05:34 PM (Cxsey)

Pretty much sums it up.

As for funemployment, don't worry, Obama will keep making more and more of it.

75 Will you eventually have civil unions most everywhere?

No.  States that have passed a constitutional amendment, which tallys up to the precise number of "shitload", all used the same basic language. "No marriage or arrangement which approximates marriage".  In other words, no civil unions.  Butt sex remains kosher though, except to those who know what "kosher" means.

76 Your daddy is so gay his sphincter lisps when he farts.

Posted by: Tweet beats dead horses over and over again at November 06, 2009 06:13 PM (U0eMq)

Hey, lethts not make fun of lithps, they totally don't mean anything.

77 Don't you believe that marriage should be one man nagged by one woman?

Posted by: AmishDude at November 06, 2009 06:14 PM (T0NGe)

We're a traditional family.

78 I lost my virginity to a chicken. Of course I had to kill the chicken to 'avoid suspicion.' That's why there should be gay marriage. Think of the chickens.

79

Hey if a power top wants his submissive bottom to nag at him for not cutting the lawn and watching too much football, thats fine with me.

80 The word.  "Marriage."  It's vital, because it implies "good as you".  As in, "my gay partnership is just as good as your straight partnership".

And it's all about language, which leftism demands be perverted to its ends.  "Gay Marriage" is as nonsensical as "Liquid Wood"; the modifier so distorts the object as to render it meaningless.  That's why traditionalists say "Go suck a schlong" when asked about SSM. 

81

Read a great rant on this subject just the other day: http://tinyurl.com/ykvnhm2

Can't say I disagree with the guy.

82 OK that was really me.  She let me.

83 Separate marriage and state.  Period.

SuprKufr at November 06, 2009 06:13 PM (9mu3x)

--As someone who had to go through an inconvenient "civil" wedding before being allowed to do the real/romantic one, I'm totally with that statement.  Marriage should be completely "privatized."

84

SuprKufr, thank you for your consistent and principled libertarian argument.

I also have a consistent and principled argument - from the perspective of aristocracy. Society rests on hierarchies. As a corollary some people are destined to be second-class citizens in some respects.

For instance, creationists should accept that they don't understand science. I get the impression it's because they can't understand it. They can't be judges of their own ignorance so someone else will have to judge them on their behalf. Therefore I don't think their votes should count when it comes to setting educational standards etc.

In your case, along with other homosexuals, I'm afraid that your second-class status would affect your right to marry another man.

I do of course accept your right to equal treatment in most other spheres. Just not that one.

85 She let me.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at November 06, 2009 06:21 PM (CZI81)

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Let indicates there is no price to pay later.

86 If our income tax rate was 3%, dependent writeoffs wouldn't matter, mortgage deductions wouldn't matter, the "cockholster tax" wouldn't matter.  Instead, they've so inserted themselves past our sphincter ring that they have to write more rules to keep from being strung up at the nearest lamp post. 

87 Let indicates there is no price to pay later.

They're all hidden taxes anymore, anyway.  Fuck it.

88

Instead, they've so inserted themselves past our sphincter ring that they have to write more rules to keep from being strung up at the nearest lamp post. 
 Lost as we don't lisp, we're kosher, m'kay?

89

87, nobody rides for free.

And that applies to both sides of the equation.

90
As usual, David Ross fills the gap when Christoph isn't around.

Someone who is not in the least bit skeptical about the science is usually the one who doesn;t understand science.

But anyway, continue to lecture the rest of us about tolerance, o enlightened one.

91

They're all hidden taxes anymore, anyway.  Fuck it.

Herr, the Frau's gonna beat you with a cast iron skillet for that.  Maybe.  On a Tuesday.

92 I lost my virginity to a chicken. Of course I had to kill the chicken to 'avoid suspicion.' That's why there should be gay marriage. Think of the chickens.

That has to be the most poultry rational for gay marriage I've ever read.

93 Instead, I support abolishing marriage for gays and straights.  No special rights for anyone!

Yeah, who cares about providing for children and establishing clear lines of inheritance.

But "power over straights"?  Only if you interpret that as some kind of terrible burden if you can no longer insult, slander, hate, bash, persecute, demean, or otherwise attempt to diminish the quality of life of gay people through conscious action.

Er, no. Activist gays want the power to force straights to actively approve gay relationships. Ask the photographer who is being prosecuted because she turned down a job photographing a gay marriage ceremony -- a mature reaction, one respectful of liberty, would have been to move on and hire someone else. The totalitarian reaction -- the one taken -- was to use the power of the state to punish her.

Or ask the Canadian preacher who is under court order never to mention what his faith tells him about homosexuality.

94 But "power over straights"?  Only if you interpret that as some kind of terrible burden if you can no longer insult, slander, hate, bash, persecute, demean, or otherwise attempt to diminish the quality of life of gay people through conscious action.

insult, slander, hate, bash, persecute, demean begs the question as to why I am not allowed to insult, slander, hate, bash, persecute, demean under your system.  You are not free to be insulated from assholes in a free system.  You are free as fuck to ignore it.  That has not diddly shit to do with altering society's set-up for the benefit of a very few.

95 Let me put it this way:  two homosexuals in front of me, with rings and a marriage license signed by the governor, are not married.  I can not be forced to accept that.

96

95, only a Sith deals an absolutes.

97

So it looks like gay marriage of some kind is inevitable in a few decades.

Not if the South rises again, according to the chart.

If you look at marriage in its simplest, purely biological purpose, it is a contract between a man and a woman whereby a woman agrees to allow the man unlimited and exclusive right to mating if a man agrees to provide for her and any offsprings that may result from said mating. This is to make sure children will not die from neglect because Dad isn't around bring home the food and Mom is too busy scrounging for food to keep herself alive. Religious and civil recognition of marriage is just a way to punish violations of the contract (alimony, child support, death by stoning for adultery).

Since children cannot be produced from homosexual mating, there is no need for a marriage contract; they can sodomize each other to their hearts' content  and leave without consequence. And don't give me that crap about marriage is an expression of love; that's brand new concept and not even needed in a marriage. Marriage is meaningless among homosexuals and it's just a tool they are using to force society to accept their abominations.

98

I think the part about the anti-democratic tactics is a good one. Even though I support gay marriage, trying to force an issue through the courts is what leads to the courts being a battleground, and ultimately becomes destructive to the court system- every judgeship becomes a high stakes winner take all battle, and we end up losing sight of the idea of impartial justice, and see judges as just pawns in the political battle.

 

99

Herr, the Frau's gonna beat you with a cast iron skillet for that.  Maybe.  On a Tuesday.

Posted by: Dale in San Antonio(Not Dave!) at November 06, 2009 06:27 PM (sXEVG)

Iron skillet?  That's Monday.  Rolling pin is Tuesday.  Neither can measure up to "Hickory switch" Saturday.  But enough about our "private life", IYKWIMAITYD.

100

My personal stance on the subject is neutral for two reasons.  1. I'm still a bachelor at large.  2.  My religious upbringing...ehh, not so much.  Mom and Dad wanted me to make my own choice and decision in religion, as I was the only one of 4 kiddos who was baptised.  Theoretically that makes me Christian.  However, my ignorance on material in the Bible currently puts me at agnostic, with the concept that you can pray to God anywhere, and church is merely a place for those of similar beliefs to congregate and pray together, etc.

Me? I'd probably burst into flame if I got within 10 feet of a holy place.

101 Well, that and the belief that I'm fairly certain my grandma's watchin over me, or someone like that...and I'm gonna catch an earful as soon as I pass on.

102 Posted by: Dale in San Antonio(Not Dave!) at November 06, 2009 06:38 PM (sXEVG)

Dude you are halfway to being a minister already. If you don't want to end up with a flock avoid retreats.

103 Interestingly, most of our marriage traditions stem from Roman traditions.  The whole point of marriage was a way to deal with inheritance and legitimacy.  Even if you read the Bible, it spends no time at all on traditions of or instructions on marriage.  Leviticus doesn't deal with it and that book goes so far as to tell you what to eat.

Marriage was simply assumed.  It was in the ether.  Religion didn't invent or create it, it was a part of any functioning civilization.

104 Pro-gay marriage to get them to shut the hell up.

or- civil unions for all from gov. Marriage at church of your choice.

105 It's been MTVs agenda for the last 25 years. Of course the younger generation is all about it. They think whatever MTV and other celebrities tell them to think.

106 Tweet @#90

Thank you... as a scientist, engineer and human being I was trying to think of how to respond to such  a grotesquely sophomoric line of thought(?) from "boy who writes his own wiki page" (aka notreal)....

you nailed it.

107

Problems with gay marriages:

Has there ever been a situation where a gay couple "had to get married"?

Have a gay couple ever got married just out of high school only to realize they were too young to handle the responsibilities.

Which father pays for the wedding?

Which one is carried across the threshold?

Which one gets the headache when asked for sex?

Which one spends too much time playing poker with the guys?

Which one forgets the anniversary?

Which one loses have of his property in the divorce because he was caught with a pretty young thing?

108 Star Trek was popular and it didn't exist either. But at least Star Trek can exist at some ponit in the future if we don't destroy ourselves. Gay marriage, no matter what laws may state, cannot exist. There is no such thing as gay marriage so it should be irrelevant to ask how popular it is. You want some type of legal union, I'm open to discussion, but marriage? Impossible.

109

Iron skillet?  That's Monday.  Rolling pin is Tuesday.  Neither can measure up to "Hickory switch" Saturday.  But enough about our "private life", IYKWIMAITYD.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at November 06, 2009 06:34 PM (CZI81)

Don't forget about Strap-on Sunday.



I keed, I keed.

110 Marriage was simply assumed.  It was in the ether.  Religion didn't invent or create it, it was a part of any functioning civilization.

True.  Religion enforces marriage, just like the Constitution protects that which existed before.  The "right to health care" never existed before.  Therefore, it must be invented.  "Gay marriage" never existed before, therefore it must be invented.

Doesn't change that they're both bullshit, because they don't exist.

111 Don't forget about Strap-on Sunday.

Thankfully, I've gotten that down to "The Solstice Strap-On Surprise".  OK, it's not much of a surprise when it's on the calendar, but I get a week of Mexican food lead time to make it short and sweet.

Marriage.  It's about compromise.

112

I think there should be some legal way for same sex couples to get the same power of attorney that married couples automatically enjoy.

 

I can't say I give a rats ass about that topic one way or the other.

I wil say that "gay marriage" has basically fuck all to do with gay people. It's an issue driven by the cultural left for their usual maligant reasons.

If America is culturally left-wing in a few decades then we'll have lost much, much more than the gay marriage debate. Everything hinges on the culture, even tax rates and foreign policy.

113

Morgenholz, Stealer of Thunder

Now he's gonna have to fill out all that paperwork. You know how it goes. Anytime someone around here invokes chaos, they've got to fill out Form #390-12/56 in triplicate and file it with Kratos. Then you wait 4 to 6 weeks for him to approve chaos.

114 If America is culturally left-wing in a few decades then we'll have lost much, much more than the gay marriage debate.

Their names are Texas, Alabama, Alaska, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Kansas, Mississippi, Arkansas, Georgia, The Carolinas, Indiana, Missouri, Wyoming, Montana.........

115 Now he's gonna have to fill out all that paperwork. You know how it goes. Anytime someone around here invokes chaos, they've got to fill out Form #390-12/56 in triplicate and file it with Kratos. Then you wait 4 to 6 weeks for him to approve chaos.

Why is bureaucracy so damned chaotic?

116 It's not a lifestyle choice.   

117

Their names are Texas, Alabama, Alaska, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Kansas, Mississippi, Arkansas, Georgia, The Carolinas, Indiana, Missouri, Wyoming, Montana.........

And Nebraska, Idaho, and the Dakotas.

118 The problem with stealing thunder is smuggling it out the front door in your pants.  That sucks.

119 It's not a lifestyle choice.   

Posted by: Nature at November 06, 2009 07:04 PM (tW88P)

You again?  Get your fucking shine box.

120

Why is bureaucracy so damned chaotic?

The answer to that can be had by filing Form 41B/324. Allow six months for an answer.

121 Speaking purely from the point of view of a statistics instructor, that's a very nice graph. Clear, coherent, packed with information. I'd give it an A. (And I'm bookmarking it as an example to use in my classes.)

122 nature ...

123 nurture...

124 choice...

125 you are always about "Choice" ... aren't you?

126 you are always about "Choice" ... aren't you?

I don't get to "choose".  I only get to acknowledge truth.

127 how many data points and what perspective determines "choice"?

128 I think 18-29 yr olds are more saying "that's cool" than being vocal supporters of gay marriage. In other words, they just accept it. My age group is pretty stupid that way. 

129 I don't believe it is inevitable. As soon as those young groups get married and having kids, then all of a sudden a strange fad goes to being abnormal and mom and dad do not want to explain fisting, poop shooting, felching, and men sucking cock to their 5 year old as reasons why two men want to be called "married".

Face it, it ain't normal, never has been, never will be at least in Mother Nature's eye.

130 hmmm

131 "it looks like gay marriage of some kind is inevitable in a few decades."

Perhaps there will be a complete detachment from any understanding of what marriage is and why it exists; of marriage law history. In that case I agree with the premise.

But it might also be that there is a reaction and reversal when the real-world implications of dumbing down marriage are imagined or (more likely) observed. I expect a reversal of the trend over time or the complete destruction of legal protections of monogamous lifetime heterosexual pairing.

132 how many data points and what perspective determines "choice"?

"Shut up!",  I lisped.

133 Posted by: SuprKufr at November 06, 2009 06:13 PM (9mu3x)

As a gay man, let me reply: mostly bullshit.

2. The word.  "Marriage."  It's vital, because it implies "good as you".  As in, "my gay partnership is just as good as your straight partnership".

But it's not. My gay partnership is not nearly as important to society as someone else's straight partnership, and it's absurdity on stilts to say so.

134 or the complete destruction of legal protections of monogamous lifetime heterosexual pairing.

Posted by: SarahW at November 06, 2009 07:15 PM (CSrvi)

And let's go ahead and commit the stupid and futile act that will lead to exactly that.  After all, Rome did actually fall in a day.

135 Morg
still laughing....

now it's time to crack open a bottle...

136 That's a vivid illustration of Leftist indoctrination at work over time. It's why WASF.

137

Posted by: DoDoGuRu at November 06, 2009 07:16 PM (Xdxf

And that is exactly the position that most homosexuals I know take.  I've got a buddy I went to high school with who has been with the same partner since his freshman year in college that is absolutely opposed to gay marriage, because it isn't marriage for one thing, but also he's sick of taking shit from people both in and out of the gay community.  In, for being opposed, and out for all the shit stirred up by the SSM agitators.  Fucker just wants left alone with his guy.

138 This will all become a moot point when Sharia Law supersedes the laws that currently protect homosexuals... It'll be poetic justice considering how many are lib/progr/social/comm sand support those who WILL kill homosexuals as soona sit's legal.

139 This will all become a moot point when Sharia Law supersedes the laws that currently protect homosexuals... It'll be poetic justice considering how many are lib/progr/social/comm sand support those who WILL kill homosexuals as soona sit's legal.

Sharia law has a little problem with the law of physics.  All that ammunition floating around the country will be gone before we have Shariah.  To paraphrase, while I may disagree with you taking more balls to the chin than Johnny Bench, I will fight to the death for your right to do it.  Or something like that.

140 #138 makes an interesting point for shitwads like BFrank.... he (BFrank) is working overtime to destroy the very same people who will protect him from the "religion of peace" people who will hack his head off to please aillaah...

141 Welcome to Federalism the way it is supposed to work.

Want to mary your gay lover move to one of the states that will do that for you and live happily ever after, til death - or divorce - do you part.

142

I suspect you'd see a very similar chart if you asked questions about public healthcare, "taxing the rich", Gitmo, Iraq, etc.

The young tend to be pretty left-wing across the board.

143 @#139...
damn
johnny walker thru the nose is still painfull

144 I would imagine that Maine voted against Gay Marriage mainly because older people tend to vote more often than young people ...

Trend-wise this is probably not good news for socons.

145 Welcome to Federalism the way it is supposed to work.

Want to mary your gay lover move to one of the states that will do that

Agreed, to a point.  Full faith and credit becomes a deal breaker.  They addressed that in the Defense of Marriage Act, which was so fucking unconstitutional that it made the usual unconstitutional shit pale in comparison.  Well not really.  But it was pretty fucking unconstitutional.

146

while I may disagree with you taking more balls to the chin than Johnny Bench, I will fight to the death for your right to do it.

Too bad for you that those "taking more balls to the chin than Johnny Bench" will vote to take away your guns. In fact they already vote to do that.

You'll have to fight with your fists.

147

the Defense of Marriage Act, which was so fucking unconstitutional that it made the usual unconstitutional shit pale in comparison.

Oh, come on. 99% of what the Feds do every single day is easily as unconstitutional.

And when the clowns on the SCOTUS pass gay marriage, that will be totally unconstitutional as well.

148 They won't take our guns.  They can't.  They can't fucking do it.  That was the point.  "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in". said Dianne Feinstein.  And if they actually tried?  Two days of Kratos.  Nothing more.  It's a non-issue.

Culturally undoable.

149

And when the clowns on the SCOTUS pass gay marriage, that will be totally unconstitutional as well.

Posted by: flenser at November 06, 2009 07:37 PM (et/WL)

First.  Sockpuppet fail.

As to your point, that's our fault.  That's being corrected, politically, now.  Like I said, I won't acknowledge to gays with rings and a marriage certificate signed by the governor.  Or the Pope, for that matter.  They're not married.  Go ahead.  Outlaw firearms.  Doesn't effect me.  Fuck it.

150 I say let them marry but don't force me to pay for their aids medications. Their commitment is between them and God. I will enjoy seeing Joe(sephine) sueing Butch for alimony in divorce court.

151

I've found it somewhat odd that the same set that spent tons of oxygen trying to abolish Marriage as an archaic, Patriarchal instution for the owneship of women, who promoted the notion that "it's just a piece of paper," and who sanctified the single mother have now turned on a dime and declared that denying this awful institution to a small fraction of the population is the "civil rights issue" of our time akin to waterhoses and Bull Connor standing in the schoolhouse door.

They've either had an uncharacteristic change of heart, or are up to something nefarious.

 

 

152 There are already family law cases in CA where gay couples with kids are arguing over child support. One half argues since they aren't the biological parent of the child(ren) they shouldn't be obligated to pay for the kid(s).

Great, isn't it?

153

Posted by: Alec Leamas at November 06, 2009 07:46 PM (XASus)

Entirely consistent, as both positions lead to the devolution of society.  No cognative dissonance.  They are NOT stupid.

154

There are already family law cases in CA where gay couples with kids are arguing over child support. One half argues since they aren't the biological parent of the child(ren) they shouldn't be obligated to pay for the kid(s).

Query: Do the CA Courts summarily award custody to the biological gay parent?

Can the non-biological parent successfully Petition for primary physical custody?

My guess is that when this happens, the biological parent asserts his or her right as the "real parent" all of a sudden.

155

My guess is that when this happens, the biological parent asserts his or her right as the "real parent" all of a sudden.

Posted by: Alec Leamas at November 06, 2009 07:52 PM (XASus)

Given that it's California, he probably just blows the judge.

156 Screw it, let 'em marry. Let them know the true meaning of misery, the way straights do.

157

Morgenholtz - my 151 was a rhetorical device.  They're trying to erase what we understand as "sexual dimorphism" (which for humans is biological fact) in favor of subjective "gender."  It's Gramscian Neo-commie bullshit, of a piece with the media recently force-feeding the public the idea that Chastity Bono has "become" a man named Chaz.  They want men and women to be fungible, because simple minds can't grasp the idea that "equal" doesn't have to mean "same."  The short answer is - no they're not sincere, and yes they're up to something nefarious and destructive:

"A middle ground might be to fight for same sex marriage and its benefits, and then, once granted, redefine the institution completely, to demand the right to marry not as a way of adhering to society's moral codes but rather to debunk a myth and radically alter an archaic institution." -- Michelangelo Signorile, "Bridal Wave," OUT Magazine, December/January 1994, p.161

158

Query: Do the CA Courts summarily award custody to the biological gay parent?

Can the non-biological parent successfully Petition for primary physical custody?

I'm not sure how the courts generally rule. There aren't that many cases that I'm aware of, but I haven't really been following it that closely. I imagine that the non biological parent can petition for primary custody and win, although I don't know how easy it is. For hetero couples, it's damn near impossible to give primary custody to the father unless the mother is in jail or otherwise physically unable to care for her children.

When I worked in family law we didn't have a lot of domestic partnership dissolutions and when we did, they were generally childless.

159 I had not considered kids in teh gay equation. How do billy and bob have a kid? I know the answer: Modern science makes it possible.

160

Also, Morgenholtz and AmishDude have the absolute correct idea for dealing with the critical theory semantics. 

That which "marriage" signifies does not include a union of two men or two women.  You begin to lose the debate when you erroneously cede that there may be kinds of marriages that do include such unions or by referring to "Gay Marriage" as something that is correlative and comparable to Marriage.  Don't use the terms "traditional marriage" or "opposite sex marriage" to mean Marriage, because that implies that there are other kinds, and you therefore create room for the word games in which your opponents will make much mischief.

161

154 -- This is the sort of thing that causes the pragmatic side of me to say "no way" to gay marriage; the family courts are already fubar, and this sort of thing would make them even worse. 

*and what if the other biological parent, the non-homosexual one decides after a time that they do not believe in gay marriage or homosexuality in general (let's say they convert to Islam; they don't seem to care much for lgbt lifestyle, not at all) -- and they sue the courts for custody after the courts granted the homosexual parent the kid; what about the case of an adopted child?  What would the repercussions be?  It's this sort of thing that could just take an overburdened court system and make it a freaking mess

Also, and really no offense to homosexual people as homosexual does not equal pedophile, but you know if gay marriage is granted who is going to be showing up with the protest signs saying "well, if you granted marriage rights to gays...".  How about the polygamous?  If you grant gay marriage, why not straight polygamy?  And then do you allow someone to immigrate with a handful of wives, and each of them has two or more kids?  And they all need welfare and training?  Do we really want to deal with this?  I don't.

 

From a philosophical stance I'm rather turned off by the movement, because while you are allowed some acceptance under the Constitution -- through individual liberties and the rights and responsiblities of a citizen -- nobody was ever promised approval, nor should they be, nor should it be demanded or even asked for.  That's an infringement on other's freedoms and rights.

162 Kids know nothing, and are ignorant of that fact as well.

163 and get off my lawn!

164 The little red squares will migrate to the left over time.

It sure is a regional distinction as well as an age issue.

Roughly a third of the States never get over 50% regardless of age.

If marriage can be redefined to include same sex couples why can't it be further redefined to increase the number of people involved?

Why can't two women and one man form a legal marriage?

Or three women?

There would be no end to it.

165 163 and get off my lawn!

 (future) Old fart.

166 This graph denotes those who are explicitly in favor of the government recognizing gay marriages.

It doesn't say anything about the people like me who flat out don't give a shit one way or the other and are sick and tired of hearing about it.

Gay marriage is a non issue as far as I'm concerned, but government intrusion into marriage is a very big issue for me.

I want government out of the marriage business period.  Adults should not need state permission to marry.  The state should not be involved except under the terms of contract law.

167

If this were simply a civil rights issue, homosexual groups would push for legal equality via domestic partnerships.

It's not.  It's a cultural issue and its a power issue.

The push for gay "marriage" is a direct assault on the church and the nuclear family.  It's not enough that you tolerate homosexuality - you must celebrate it.  It's not enough that you treat homosexuals with compassion - you must accept their behavior as righteous. 

Basically, the far left wants to use coercion and threats to force conservative Americans to deny the simple truth: 

Marriage is between a man and a woman.

168 So How Popular Is Gay Marriage?Very.

169

Gay marriage does not exist. Marriage is a Covenant between Man, Woman and God. A Covenant is also known as a Holy Contract. There is an aspect of the Trinity involved.

I'm fine with gay couples being gay. Why would I fight it? Gays have been around as long as straights have. The only difference is that my faith (the same faith that our country was founded on) says that marriage is between a man and a woman.

If gays don't like it, go somewhere else.

170 homosexual does not equal pedophile
Posted by: unknown jane

I wouldn't state that as a fact so casually as you just did. Some people view HS's as depraved. Once depraved, anything is possible. I would not put children in that environment.

171 "Damned humans.  All they want to do is hump our wymins.

Posted by: The Goats at November 06, 2009 05:28 PM (pUfK9)"

I'm looking at you man.

172 There is a reason the judges had to decide gay marriage in MA.  Strong doubt the people would support it and spineless state legislators.

173

Over time you'd expect the 18-29 year-olds to become somewhat more conservative, but I doubt that they'll change that much. So it looks like gay marriage of some kind is inevitable in a few decades.

Don't bet on it.  Youth are idiots when it comes to cultura/societal issues no matter what the age is (part of not having a living memory of actual history).

174 Or rather I should say if our idiot youth today don't shape up like their Carter voting free love parents managed, we'll have much bigger things to worry about than samesex marriage.

175

I keep reading articles by gays (Charles Winecoff at Big Hollywood, for one) who don't necessarily want gay marriage.  In case it hasn't been mentioned (and I'm not going to go through all the posts to find out), he has an excellent article in response to Charles Johnson's response to a previous article.

http://tinyurl.com/ybzq23n

 

176 18 Sad how effective the propaganda has been on younger people. I guess a continuous multimedia bombardment and shame for anyone who dares disagree is effective.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 06, 2009 05:34 PM (PQY7w)


The power of Liberalism has always been its relentlessness. It's like how the ocean waves wear down the greatest cliffs. Liberals are true obsessives, they never stop and they never, ever yield back one inch.

The only way to stop them, or at least slow them down, is uncompromising opposition, a bitter hand-to-hand combat for every inch of ground.

177 Homosexual relationship is not and can never be marriage, the sad bit is these people wanting what they can never have unless they go straight. The big problem is next we will be called paedophobic and then kiddydiddling will be the next liberal perv fest. My computers dictionary gives the meaning of liberal as one who is willing to give up their values.

178 Unfortunately, gay marriage probably WILL be approved sooner or later because gay marriage is just the symptom, not the disease.

The only reason Americans are even considering gay marriage, is because Americans no longer know why the hell government is even involved in the institution to begin with -- most seem to think of it as some sort of wedding present for being lucky enough to find a mate.

The truth is that marriage exists to encourage the ideal situation for children: getting mom and dad tied up in legal knots BEFORE any kids are born.

But ask even the most stalwart supporters of marriage, and their best argument for marriage is that "marriage is between a man and a woman". Well, yes, but when their answers stop there,  its clear they have no reason why.

The government is involved in marriage because look what happens in communities where 70% of children are born OUTSIDE of wedlock, like, unfortunately, the black community. Skyrocketing rates of crime, poverty, illiteracy, school dropouts, drug use, violence, etc.... You name the social ill, and its vastly higher among kids from single parent households.  All other things being equal, kids are also better off when raised by their biological mom and dad.

But Americans now view governments role in marriage NOT as encouraging what is best for kids, but as rewarding adults for falling in love by giving them entitlements.

When THAT is how the nation views marriage, its only natural for people who are in love but ARENT allowed to marry to think they are being treated unfairly.

They arent, but very few people seem to know why anymore.

179 What fucking difference does it make if dykes and queers have their relationships recognized by the state?

I really do think that issues like abortion and gay marriage are nothing but proxies for other things.  Social authoritarians and cultural Marxists use these issues as battlegrounds because they allow both sides to do what they most love, beat up on each other.  Forget football or baseball, ideological squabbling is America's real national pastime. 

What convinces me that these issues are proxies is that they are so unimportant.  Real issues of real import wouldn't attract so many hangers on.  Neither would real issues split so cleanly down ideological lines.  Gay marriage affects gay people, who are an extreme minority.  It doesn't affect normal people.  Abortion affects teenagers who are too ignorant and stupid to use contraceptives properly.  It doesn't affect responsible adults.  It affects the dead babies too of course, but they aren't adding much to the debate.  They're a quiet bunch, don't tend to say much. 

The bile and vitriol exchanged over these topics are so extreme precisely because the stakes are so small.  Whether abortion is legal or not won't make one whit of difference in the lives of most people.  The same goes for gay marriage.  This is also why a consensus is never reached, because to do so would mean that they players would have to find some other irrelevancy to bitch at each other about.

About the only thing that is good about all this is that it keeps these nutters occupied.  Heaven forbid they ever stopped fighting with each other and had the opportunity to lay in to everyone else.

180 I understand that the majority of the US is against GM but that doesn't translate to votes for conservative politicians.  The reason Prop 8 succeeded here in California is Mexicans.  They may vote straight Democrat but for the most part they're social conservatives.  Same with blacks, as far as GM is concerned anyhow.  There are other demographics, blue collar union for instance, that are pretty much against GM but aren't going to Republican  because of it.

181 The bile and vitriol exchanged over these topics are so extreme precisely because the stakes are so small.

Perhaps the vitriolers don't consider the stakes to be all that small.

182 A simple request though:  Can we just not have the weekly gay marriage and ideological purer-than-thou threads?

I don't see that they ever advance toward any resolution and they interfere with out usual diet of mirth and commie hate.

183

170 -- I said it because it's the truth; being homosexual does not automatically put one in the "child molester" category. 

 

184 181

Emotional investment is not a measure of relevance.

Gay marriage promoters are losers.  Gay marriage opponents are losers.  Abortion activists are losers.  Anti-abortion activists are losers. 

They are all losers because their lives are pointless.  They resort to attaching themselves to trivial political issues in the quest to give their lives meaning.

Government endorsement of marriages between fags and dykes, or the lack thereof, has zero impact on the lives of anyone who isn't a fag or a dyke.  Unless you're a butt pirate or a carpet muncher, you've got little legitimate reason to care one way or the other.

The fact that neurotic asswipes will get their panties in a bunch over it doesn't constitute a legitimate stake in the matter.  People latch on to these issues precisely BECAUSE they have so little reason to care about them. 

These issues are nothing but the modern equivalent of religious debates.  Something for the aimless and lost to devote themselves to in place of something that would give their lives real significance. 

185 Anything that lowers the birth rate of western nations is a good thing, since most of western civilization is weak, relativistic and doomed.  The fewer doomed folk, the better... less whining later.

186 did that dope smokin' P-Town pirate B-Frank ever weigh in on tonight's debate...?

i heard he was howlin' with the LGBTQRS wolves up in Maine....

187 NO way...the population is trending OLDER. That  is a problem all by itself, but teh gay problem also has another problem...gay don't reproduce.

188 "the population is trending OLDER. That  is a problem all by itself, but teh gay problem also has another problem...gay don't reproduce."



Couple this with the fact that gaydom will not survive massive marauding gangs youthful Islamists who are over-populating the planet;  note that Islamists hang the homosexual, they don't do rainbows

Gaydom will find out they cannot survive without those breeders in Christian communities across the America who are producing the  freedom fighters necessary to defend Gaydom.

How's that Gay Marriage working out in Mohammed's Europe?

189 164 The little red squares will migrate to the left over time.

As the homos are weeded out by Aids.

190 What they don't say is that the polls were taken in Providence, Fire Island and Key West.

191

It seems the poles of this discussion are reflected in #69 and #169. Here's another point of view:

I'm married with no kids. The church "discriminates" against my wife and me by not recognizing our marriage. The government doesn't extend the "special rights" that couples with kids enjoy in the form of certain tax credits to us.

I suppose I could call this a "civil rights" issue, be angry at the world for not changing according to my personal wishes, and bide my time until childless married couples become a majority of voters at which time I'll demand my rights. Or we could find another church and learn to live without the $400 a year which we didn't earn to begin with.

I'm going with the latter course because it's easier, I'd rather be happy than angry, and I never believed that a majority opinion on anything ought to become a governing principle.

(Thanks for the graph and the post, Mوtenloch, but the more I think about it the less it means to me.)

192 سعودي كام -
شات سعودي كام -
دردشة سعودي كام -
شات الشله -
شات الود -
شات الساهر -
شات الحال -
شات الدولي -
شات الرياض -
شات تعب قلبي -
شات عالم الرومانسية -
شات قلبي -
شات مزنه -
شات الغلا -
شات الحب -
شات عسل -
شات غرام -
شات عبير -
شات لقيت روحي -
شات بنت ابوي -
شات سعودي كام -
شات عاتبوها -
شات جروح -
شات غلاي -
شات روحي تحبك -
شات المميزه -
شات ادما -
شات التحلية -
شات نهر الحب -
شات الخليج -
شات بنت السعودية -
شات غلاك -
الاميرة وعد -
شات كازنوفا -
شات حكي بنات -
شات ياعمري -
شات زهور عفيف -
شات تعالو -
شات المها -
شات دلع نجد -
شات فله -
دردشة ملاك المملكه -
شات ملاك المملكه -
دردشة حلم الشمال -
شات حلم الشمال -
رفع صور -
رفع ملفات -
موقع جيران -
توبيكات ملونه -
توبيكات جديدة -
توبيكات 2010 -
جريدة الوطن -
جريدة الرياض -
جريدة المدينة -
عكاظ -
جريدة عكاظ -
سبق -
صحيفة سبق -
سبق الالكترونية -
الوئام -
الوئام الالكترونية -
صحيفة الوئام -
صحف الكترونية -
صحف سعودية -
اخبار عاجلة -
تعبت قلبي -
دردشة تعبت قلبي -
شات تعبت قلبي -
منتديات تعبت قلبي -
مواقع دردشة -
مواقع شات -
محاضرات -
دروس -
اناشيد -
فلاشات اسلاميه -
خواطر حب -
خواطر حزينه -
خواطر قصيره -
قصص قصيره -
تحميل روايات -
كتب الكترونيه -
كتب مجانيه -
تحميل كتب -
منتدى الصور -
صور منوعه -
البوم الصور -
صور اطفال -
صور مناظر طبيعيه -
صور اسلاميه -
صور انمي -
صور ماسنجر -
صور متحركه -
اجمل صور منوعه -
صور تصميم -
تصاميم جاهزه -
تحميل العاب -
العاب اون لاين -
العاب فلاش -
العاب 2010 -
العاب جديده -
العاب بنات -
العاب طبخ -
العاب باربي -
العاب تلبيس -
العاب اكشن -
العاب سباق -
العاب سيارات -
العاب ماريو -
العاب اطفال -
العاب مغامرات -
العاب حربية -
العاب قتال -
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