1 Shout out to the Federal Reserve!

2 Wheeeeeee_eeeeee!

3 Lets outlaw failure, everyone wins!

4 Heard this long ago.TARP was the tip of the iceberg.

5 Given the criminal behavior of the Fed, can you think of any reason a foreign country might want to maintain their investment in dollars?

Me neither.

6

That seems to account for some of the more obvious market tampering

7
Bernanke must be getting economic advice from Paul Krugman.

Did you ever think you'd long for the days of Greenspan and John Snow?

8 Ancient history AP. Did you really thing the major banks were going to react to a measly $700B program - that was just the teaser to encourage public confidence. My understanding the the TARP funds actually have more strings and oversight then these funds (BTW the number I heard was north of $7T available.)

9

The TARP law required minuted meetings of an oversight board, none have been posted since Obamavich was sworn in*.

* I prefer to write it as "sworn in" instead of Inaguration, because there was plenty of swearing that day.

10 Additionally, in that conversation I heard that these funds are where the TARP number came from, it wasn't picked from the sky - it was 10% of the available fluid assets + some extra crap Congress threw on top.

11 krakatoa: In line with the govt being used only for very targeted stuff, I saw a blog that likened the feds to a big gun, with the cardinal firearms rules applying:

1. Every gun is loaded (every law has the potential to destroy no matter how benign it seems)

2. Know your target and what's behind it (look for the unintended consequences and collateral damage your govt action will cause)

3. Don't point your gun at anything you're not willing to destroy (don't get the govt involved unless a smoking ash-heap is an acceptable consequence)

12 mr.frankypants - I keep reminding the gay marriage supporters about that, inviting the government into your private affairs is not a good idea.

13 One week BEFORE the Tarp was approved by Congress the Fed dumped 600 billion into the economy. This was when I said Tarp is not needed.

If the Fed can do that on their own authority with NO oversight then the 700 billion not only was not needed, but was intended for a different purpose than that which was advertised.

They publicly said it was needed to buy up all those "toxic" assets. Maybe that was the intent under Bush but that ain't what happened.

Instead they used it to buy up banks and auto companies so that the government could seize control of them.

Now they are seizing control of banks that did NOT get any bailout funds.  This is all about a Hugo Chavez takeover of what is left as private industry in this country.

That small remant of capitalism that we had when the Won took office is about to be lost. Hell, he is on the verge of complete destruction of the U.S. in less than a year.

We were fools, we thought we could survive 4 years of this asshole.

14 mr.frakypants: Couldn't agree more.

I just think most people these days (moderates included) don't get past the preamble of "We've got a problem and the gov't has deep pockets."

That burns in their hands like a found 20 dollar bill, and they never read the fine print about the ash heap.

15 The sad thing to me about the gay marriage deal is that if they had stuck with going after domestic partnerships with legal equality to traditional marriage, they'd probably have that in most places around the country by now. But they wanted more, not realizing that almost everyone would have freaking called them "married" anyway. They had to have "marriage" written in stone or it wasn't good enough, and they've postponed their own cause dramatically.

16 I can only comment on what TARP was supposed to be; not how it was implemented. Although, with hindsight, we could have predicted that all of that cash, a sense of "crisis", and with Frank/Dodd as the Chairman with oversight responsibility would not have been used wisely.

17

And only so long as it is a transparent process that does not arbitrarily pick favorites at the expense of others.

This is impossible because of the moral hazard involved.  End.

18 pardon my blackberry grammar

19

Although, with hindsight, we could have predicted that all of that cash, a sense of "crisis", and with Frank/Dodd as the Chairman with oversight responsibility would not have been used wisely.

Jean,

I've said it a million times--Hank Paulson is conspirator number one.  We should reopen Alcatraz and throw him in solitary.

20 Lets outlaw failure, everyone wins!

Seriously. Why not just guarantee everyone's assets? We're told it works, it helps the big boys... but why aren't the rest of us given guarantees? Wouldn't that be even better? Who will replace the value of your 401(k)? No one, because only well-connected people high in finance, with one hand up the government's ass, get the sugar. And guess what: The dollar is broken. Look at a chart.

This is one area where the Left sounds more correct than the elite Right that always seems to find an excuse to have the public bail out, guarantee, or otherwise subsidize Big Business and Big Banks. Plenty of corporate welfare for the Warren Buffets of the world, but nothing for the guy making $60K. He doesn't get his credit card payments guaranteed. He doesn't get his home's value guaranteed. This Chicken Little crap the whole government and media elites sold us last year is smelling really old now. When anyone tells you "Give me special treatment or the world's gonna end," be very suspicious.

21 I am still waiting for the banks to release their ill-gotten hoard in new loans.  They can't sit on that cash forever, they only profit from making new loans.  You couple all that money with the Fed printing to cover Obama'a budget and you get a huge push to inflation, followed by punishing interest rates as the Fed belatedly tries to soak up all the liquidity.  Either that, or the dollar continues its slide into Zimbabwe territory.  Either way, good times!

Best move now for anyone with spare cash would be to invest in Canadian or Australian rental properties.  Take advantage of the coming currency gradient to preserve asset value.

22 I am still waiting for the banks to release their ill-gotten hoard in new loans. They can't sit on that cash forever, they only profit from making new loans. --- They are dumping into the stock market, not consumer and business loans.

23 Posted by: mr.frakypants at November 06, 2009 10:50 AM (PonvG)

I've made that same argument. It's amazing what the effect a calm and measured pursuit of a goal can have on the American public, as opposed to hysterical threats and insults.

24

I am still waiting for the banks to release their ill-gotten hoard in new loans.

They can't.  All those bad loans are still bad.  ALL OF THEM.

25 George Orwell: This is one area where the Left sounds more correct than the elite Right that always seems to find an excuse to have the public bail out, guarantee, or otherwise subsidize Big Business and Big Banks.

People always confuse corporate execs with free market capitalist.  They are such only as long as they profit.  If they can make more through govt rent seeking, "licensing", etc, then they will switch in a heart beat.  Profit uber alles.

26 Mr Orwell, you do realize that Big Business view Government as a partner and small businesses as competitors. Small businesses are unpredictable, siphon off good employees, implement new ideas quickly and embarrass them. Government on the other hand can be worked with, the political side can be negotiated or bought and the bureaucracy is a stabilizing function. Managing the regulatory process requires long term overhead resources that small businesses cannot support. Big business is Democrat - look at the FEC reports.

27 Jean: They are dumping into the stock market, not consumer and business loans.

Yeah, I had read that as well.  Things is the stock market is only holding its own against the falling dollar.  No real profit there, just asset preservation.  Besides, most "experts" think this is a bear market rally and is going to tank at some point.  I'm no market expert, but I read the P/E ratios were at unheard of levels.

28 I just want to say, i am a small business man and i sure am grateful that the fed saved wall street. whatever it tooks. My neighbor is a farmer and he too was worried. His main concern was for his corn crop. I didnt realize this, but if it rains too much in the fall, or if MBA salaries drop, the corn crop is likely to rot in the field before harvest. I have the same problem with my inventory. I would much rather steal my grandchildren's future than have my turnover drop or my roi hit single digits.

Thank you Fed, Treasury, and Wall street.

29 There is nothing so good that too much of it cannot become a bad thing.

We cannot forget that one year ago we had runs on Wamu and Wachovia and the financial system was in deep shit.  Panic is no way to run an economy either.

But this original purpose was accomplished with about 200 billion of the TARP given to fewer than 100 banks, about 90 billion for AIG, plus some considerable amount in lower borrowing costs and guarantees.

This was a delaying action at best, which the FDIC continues today in being slow to close banks.  Only 100 or so have been closed so far with many more to come.  In the end however, the inescapable truth is that the government owns bank problems - cut it any way you like, the bill winds up with the FDIC. 

As to these moves, reasonable people can disagree.

Even unreasonable people however, will have a difficult time explaining the rest of it.  There is no justification for favorable treatment for friends, auto bailouts and 9000 earmarks.

If it had been left at the first 300 billion or so, we would be in much better shape today and that sum would have probably just displaced the same costs that would eventually have been born by the FDIC.

30 Circa: They can't.  All those bad loans are still bad.  ALL OF THEM.

But that can't last forever.  As I understand it, this is due to the change in the mark-to-market rules, which I confess I supported at the time.  I don't know enough about the new rules, but I would think that if it is some sort of "moving average" then those hidden loans will have to have their values adjusted at some point in the future.

Anyone that could edumacate me on these new rules would be appreciated.

31

You bastards miss me yet?

32 jcp: I just want to say, i am a small business man and i sure am grateful that the fed saved wall street.

You are grateful the govt stole my money, my childrens' money and my grandchildren's money because that way we all pay for your continued success.

Govt didn't save Wall Street.  I and my family did.  We are sure pleased to be poorer so that you can be richer.  Its the least we could do for such a swell guy.

Your welcome

33 And nothing has convinced me yet that the panic was driven by Berbanke's fear that obama would lose. Why else would he run around like chicken little?

Another gift from Bush,...

34 Uh, Oldguy, ... that was sarcasm,....

Actually the bubble and then panic was a complete and total disaster for me and my family. Black humor is the only thing keeping me going anymore.

35

I still recall when Hank Paulson summoned the elected leaders of the American Government and told them that unless they gave him 3/4 Trillion dollars the economy would collapes; how news reports showed them walking out with "ashen faces"; how everyone- everyone involved hastily gave the Man what he wanted, on the spot.

It made me realize that Naomi Klein was right in her book "The Shock Doctrine" that the banks and private interests use economic crises to their advantage to exert favorable treatment from the elected government.

This isn't about capitalism vs socialism; this is about banks crushing their competitors using taxpayer help, about destroying free enterprise and open markets, in the name of saving them.

This is about corporations waging war on the free market.

36 Circa -- I was under the impression was that the problem wasn't that the loans were all bad. It's that bad were bundled with good in a completely opaque fashion, meaning that the securities created were non-valuable, as in they could not be assigned a value. Now a certain portion of those loans are bad, but we don't know which portion. As far as bad loans are concerned, while CRI was a problem, the real bad news was in people who bought second and third properties on interest-only and short-term balloon mortgages, expecting prices to keep going up which obviously didn't happen. It's the payment resets on that class of loan that set off the wave of defaults.

Now, do we really really want the banks dumping all that cash into the currency stream? Because that's when the mega-inflation kicks in.

37

Given the criminal behavior of that created the Fed, there, that's better

If the Fed can do that on their own authority -

Hellooo, they are the ones that control the money supply, oversight by treasury and congress is a joke. I mean please, the former head of the New York branch of our privately owned central bank is the sec. treas.

38
You guys talking about the Toxic Assets scheme?

What ever happened to that brilliant plan devised by the boy-genius, Geithner?

39 jcp: Uh, Oldguy, ... that was sarcasm,....

Actually the bubble and then panic was a complete and total disaster for me and my family. Black humor is the only thing keeping me going anymore.

D'oh!

*oLD gUY takes a time out in the Quiet Room*

40 Mr. pants, IMHO the problem was that the market dried up for all the CDO's and such. Holders of bad loans (or securities) were waiting for a bailout, so were unwilling to sell at a loss, and buyers were unwilling to pay inflated prices. in other words, the market dried up because of gov interference.

The gov was the CAUSE of the panic, not the cure.
(without even getting into bernanke, paulson,  etc.)

41 Government, the source of, and solution to all of life's problems

42

#35, and did anyone ever figure out what caused that disruption and threatened collapse?

The Saudis?

Soros?

Who else would have the resources to engineer such a situation and be in a position to benefit from it. Was Obama's election their goal, or is someone playing a deeper game?

43 thirsty ... so very thirsty

44 mr.frakypants: Now, do we really really want the banks dumping all that cash into the currency stream? Because that's when the mega-inflation kicks in.

Banks, Treas., and the Fed are currently holding their collective breaths, hoping things will suddenly and magically get better.  That was the essence of TARP after it was changed by Paulson and no longer was to be used to buy bad assets.

The new strategy:  Temporarily flood both the banks and markets with cash to weather the storm and wait for good times to return.  These were all holding actions, nothing was done to fix the structural problems.  But the good times haven't returned and you cannot hold your breath forever.  Something's got to give at some point.  Worse times are still ahead.

45

 Was Obama's election their goal, or is someone playing a deeper game? -

Boy am I about to either get totally stomped on or ignored. - He. Is. A. Puppet. - And the game is the same one that has been played by evil men for a long, long time. World domination and the enslavement of humanity.

46 "The actions spared investors the downside of their risk while allowing them to earn better returns than they would have in a normal deposit account."  This is precisely the thing that frosted me during the panic.  Assholes in (non-FDIC) money-market funds, with higher yields than FDIC deposits, suddenly got the same protection as FDIC depositors, WITHOUT having to give back the yield advantage difference.  And money-market depositors KNEW their accounts were riskier all along.  But they were too big to fail.  What a clusterfuck this whole thing is.

47 sgt dan,
IMHO (again) the scale of what happened was way too large for anyone to engineer. WSJ has a pretty good piece today by Gasparino about decades of the gov assuming risk and teaching wall street to play with fire. (the infamous Greenspan put)

The real question is why did it collapse when it did,.... I think Berbanke and Paulson wanted it to collapse for a few reasons (1) they knew if it collapsed in an election year they could get the gov to pay any price to fix it -- basically these guys really believe they are masters of the universe and can fix anything with enough resources. They all know the legends from wall street about how Carnegie or Mellon saved the street from panic,... and they thought they could save anythign if they had the resources. that is how we got into the risk loving situation that caused the problem, (2) they wanted Obama elected since dems love wall street and a dem is always good for the bonus pool, and (3) they wanted Obama elected since they are fellow travelers.

48 teej:  Was Obama's election their goal, or is someone playing a deeper game?

I'm in the greedy-ne'er-do-wells-looking-for-easy-green category rather than some grand conspiracy theorist.  I think few people saw what was coming and the few who did figured on "just a little more".  After it started falling apart it was mostly save me!, save my friends!, save my future employers!.  Just greedy greed-mongers.  Same story, different day.

49 #35, and did anyone ever figure out what caused that disruption and threatened collapse? -- Chucky Schumer's actions need a deeper look.

50 Plus if anyone wants to look at Goldman Sachs and "front running", you will find certain elements associated with this administration are getting very wealthy off the largess of the taxpayer.

51 thirsty ... so very thirsty
Posted by: the tree of liberty at November 06, 2009 11:30 AM

You just got the blood of patriots yesterday... 

52 Meanwhile millions of Americans saw their 401K savings evaporate before losing their jobs, thus having even less to use to save their homes.

So many got goat fucked this year while corrupt assholes are laughing all the way to the bank.

53  "The two chief enemies of the free society or free enterprise are
intellectuals on the one hand and businessmen on the other, for opposite
reasons. Every intellectual believes in freedom for himself, but he’s
opposed to freedom for others.…He thinks…there ought to be a central
planning board that will establish social priorities.…The businessmen are
just the opposite—every businessman is in favor of freedom for everybody else, but when it comes to himself that’s a different question. He’s always the special case. He ought to get special privileges from the government, a tariff, this, that, and the other thing…"

54

#48 Posted by: oLD gUY at November 06, 2009 11:37 AM (P/D33) -

And most people, and by most I mean MOST, would agree with you. I go back to the warnings of many of our founders, and think of the attempts on Andrew Jackson's life. And people like Lincoln, Cong. Larry McDonald, JFK - all of whose lives, in my unworthy opinion, were taken by these same people.

55

By same people, I mean people in the same positions.

 

56 By Tyler Durden (zerohedge)
Created 11/04/2009 - 07:22 The Goldman 10-Q is out, providing numerous interesting datapoints for those willing to scour through them. The key one: Goldman lost money on just one trading day in Q3, making money on all the other 64. As a reminder, even in Q2 Goldman lost money on two trading days. The statistical probability distribution of 1 out of 65 is something that not the SEC, but Richard Feynman should be looking into, as Goldman Sachs, after rewriting the lass of risk/return, is now set to redefine normal distributions and other Statistics 101 concepts.



Neat.  Wish I could do that.

57 I hope Tyler has a CCW.

58 teej -- Ivy League grad here. Some of my friends from that time are now execs at top internationals, Ivy profs, bond traders, etc. The point is not to brag but to tell you from firsthand experience: these people are not capable of running such a manipulative conspiracy. I've met the top minds and dealt with some incredibly capable individuals, and not one of them (nor the whole lot) is up able to pull something like that off.

I think some folks get pre-disposed to believing things like this, because it works out so well and so neatly in popular fiction. How many people do you know who can keep even a little secret, let alone a big one. I know what that number is for my own experience. Couple that with the inability of humans to plan at the level such a thing would require, and I find the likelihood of such scenarios to be so close to zero that you can't tell the difference.

59

#45, teej, I think someone is going to be very disappointed in the quality of their puppet. Obama's not good at accomplishing much. He wants to go back to eating his waffle and watching documentaries about himself.

#58, frankypants, I always have the same regard for military conspiracy theories. None of us are that good at our jobs, and someone always talks.

There's still the nagging theory that we were not brought to this impending collapse by accident though.

 

60 SGT Dan and mr.freakypants. I would tend to agree with you - with the caveat that Soros has pulled some large scale shit off before.

61 Soros has pulled some large scale shit off before.

Yep, he was prosecuted in France for that shit.

62

#60, 61, I seem to recall he was also convicted in absentia by one of the Southeastern Asian nations he collapsed the currency of.

Maybe it would be nice for him to delivered to a Thai prison.

I joke, but not much. Soros is like a James Bond villain brought to life.

63 Malaysia, and I bet he has a furry white cat.

64 Maybe it would be nice for him to delivered to a Thai prison.

That would be cool. Those jails and prisons over in that area are not the "country club" things we have here.

First he would get the good old fashioned "caning" then he would go to the prison where he would work like a dog for 18 hours a day, get fed fish heads and rice to the tune of about 1500 calories, and be lucky to last 5 years.

65

@ Sgt. Dan-

I don't subscribe to the notion that the collapse was engineered; First, I haven't seen any real evidence of that, and it is a bit tin-foil-hat for my taste.

However, I think trying to turn it into a Bush-bashing or Obama-bashing exercise is foolish; Goldman Sachs has its hands in both of their pockets; My complaint is that both parties are running on self-serving myths:

Myth #1: the Democrats are the party representing the "common man"; this is a bald faced lie- they suck up to the banks and moneyed interests as much as anyone.

Myth #2: The Republicans are the party representing "free enterprise"; This is also a lie- they represent corporate interests, which as Milton Friedman (and Adam Smith) have pointed out, are often directly opposed to free enterprise.

I think Naomi Klein and Simon Johnson are correct, in that when economies run into trouble, corporations and powerful interests rig the game to protect their interests, while the public good and national interest is ignored.

66

@ #58 - Posted by: mr.frakypants at November 06, 2009 12:25 PM (zOP9 -

Thank's for the input, I mean that. But the folks I'm referring to are "a few rungs higher on the food chain" than the ones you're referring to. They are also very good at keeping their "secrets" in plain sight. And people like me have been referred to as "tin foil hat or conspiricy types" for so long that the public at large has been "conditioned" to believe it. And please don't read any disrespect into that remark because none is meant. I have no where near the IQ nor do I have anywhere near the background dealing with "high level stuff" as many on this sight. Just too many coincidences over the last few hundred years for my taste.

@59 Sgt Dan. - He has managed to what, quadruple?, this country's debt in less than a year. My understanding is that the Fed. (once again, a privately held bank) puts some ink on paper and calls it money. It is then loaned to us (the American taxpayer) at interest. So the people who "own" the Fed. are the ones that the interest on the debt is going to. They can also shrink or expand the money supply as they so choose. So who are the people who actually own the Fed. And the central banks of England, Germany, France etc.? If you can, please tell me where I have it wrong. Ya think I like wearing this hat?

67

See, this is where my specific knowledge falls apart and I'm split between gut instinct and what can be proven.

Sure, there is no evidence, that we know of, of a conspiracy to get the United States in permanent debt slavery to a privately owned central bank that benefits Fuck Knows Who.

That, however, has been the end result of US government fiscal policy since 2006.

I don't buy all the theories that say the component banks of the Fed are fronts for the Rotschilds, the Rockefellers, the Bilderbergers, and the Trilateral Commission. There is a lot of anti-Semitic kookiness in that. I'd think the Saudis and other oil-rich Arabs who own banks might well be in a position to benefit. They also do not necessarily have our interests at heart.

The natural instinct is to look for someone responsible in an event like this. We wouldn't expect the malfactors to advertise what they did or how they did it, and the thought is that the collapse would have to have been engineered. Soros has done it before. He's the man who "broke the Bank of England" and collapsed Southeast Asia. Soros also had a political interest in engineering a collapse to affect the outcome of the 2008 Presidential election, having been stymied in his attempts to install a trans-national progressive Democrat twice in a row.

But I am grasping at straws and have no idea of the facts of the matter.

 

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