1 I am so screwed.

2 "because that worked out so damn well with Arlen Spector."

And Lincoln Chafee.

3 Terrific step in the right direction.

4 As long as the primaries stay open... Thanks for nothing.

5 Maybe because I laugh at them when they call for money.  Close the god damn primaries.  No more McCains.

6 Posted by: Valiant at November 04, 2009 04:18 PM (KByvo)

********

The NRSC has absolutely no control over that.

7 Well at least its a step in the right direction.
They should withdraw their support for Crist, saying it was premature

8 " .........I would have rolled over and engaged in apologism for further party meddling..."

Geez Ace.  Can't you keep your sick twisted late night valu-rite addled activities to yourself.

9 This is great news.

On the supporting incumbents, yeah it sucks but in reality there's not much choice.

The National Republican Senatorial Committee is made up of...Republican Senators. The purpose of the organization is to reelect Republican Senators and people who want to be Republican Senators.

It's not like throwing one of the members of the club under the bus is really an option. 

Now, the RNC should stay the hell out of those races.

This is a great step. Now about the NRCC....

10 oops... #8 sock puppet fail

11 So will they be staying out of the race down in Florida?  Words are one thing.  Let's see some actions with it.  What about when they are involved but the incumbent loses will they then support the primary winner that beat him?

12

Stay in DC...for awhile more then Out! Damn spot! Out!...

13 “We will not spend money in a contested primary,”

Paging Joe Wilson, your services are urgently needed.  I mean that's just effing stupid to the google power for Cornyn for say that right after he was challenged in his primary by some truther-nutter basket case.

BTW, I voted for the truther nut job just cause I like Cornyn that much.

14 Good in words, but let's see some deeds. I'll believe it when the primary season kicks off.

15 Ace - "A majority in the House gets to conduct investigations of the president and issue subpoenas on a party line vote."

I get what you are saying, but dude - when is the last time that made any difference in favor of the Republicans?

16 It's a start, and I'll take it.

17

""because that worked out so damn well with Arlen Spector."

And Lincoln Chafee."

Don't forget Jim Jeffords.

18 Because I'm an Incrementalist Maximalist, which sounds a lot like my high school Latin Class name.

19 I tend to the maximalist side of things.  But there are two words that keep me from jumping in with both feet:

Ned Lamount

20 And money is only one form of support.

Do they also plan to refrain from back-room arm-twisting, and steering private contributions to select candidates and bullying local candidates into stepping out of a race, in favor of someone they think is more "electable?"

One wonders.

21 >>>I get what you are saying, but dude - when is the last time that made any difference in favor of the Republicans?

I don't get what some of you guys are saying then.

Are you blowing this off as no biggie?

I think I might have to separate the maximalists between the guys who will *risk* further Democratic power, and those who actively *seek* further Democratic power, on some twisted theory that the more apocalyptically bad it gets, the sooner the messiah comes.

22 Rearrange those deck chairs, the Sun is coming out.

23

“We will not spend money in a contested primary,” Sen. John Cornyn, the chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, told ABC News in a telephone interview today.

 

WOW, he just agreed to start following his own GD party Rules.  I posted that one the other day. It is rule number 11 for the RNC.  They are not supposed to support ANY candidate during an open primary and they can only support the candidate with an R in the general election.

 

They do no have to support anyone.  We have seen that in the past. No support for the conservative candidate, or at least some people have named instances of that here.

24

O/T Kinda, maybe...another rino maybe, something to be said about her accomplisments.

Fiorina jumps into high-profile California Senate race Published: 11/4/09, 4:00 PM EDT
By Alexander Mooney, CNN

(CNN) - Former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina finally made it official Wednesday: She's running for Senate in California.

The first woman to lead a Fortune 500 company made the announcement at an event in conservative Orange County, pledging that her focus will be on economic recovery and fiscal accountability"

25 LOL, Anti-gun, pro-abortion, pro-cap-in-trade Mark Kirk is now begging Palin for an endorsement.

26 I shouldn't have said that; you just asked a question.

But blowing that power off as no big deal, no big shit anyway.. I don't know, man.

Might as well just pack it in if we're going to do nothing at all to oppose Obama.

If all we're waiting for is for Obama to turn the country into a socialist hellhole so that we can rise back to some kind of power 60 years from now... why are we opposing ObamaCare? We should be supporting it.

27 To extend my point, Squishes like Arlen Spector short-circuited the Clinton impeachment and obstructed justice in the William Jefferson (D - his Freezer) scandal.

"Maximalist" candidates would apply the law equally.

28

Perhaps the "accomodationist elements of the GOP" can try to accomodate people to their right instead of their left for a change. That would avoid the dreaded party split. And "people to their right" seem to make up a majority of Americans.

It's win/win, assuming a more conservative Congress is the goal.

29 I'm still a little fuzzy on the new terminology. Are us chicken chokin, cousin pokin', moonshine swillin', squirrel plinkin', NASCAR thinkin' rednecks maximalists?

30
It's not about winning elections with any closet socialists who have infiltrated the Republican party just to get a majority.  Chairman John McCain wouldn't be conducting any probing hearings into Barney Franks criminal behavior. Chairman Lindsey Graham wouldn't be demanding Barry stand trial for the illegal Chrysler bondholder screwing. It is time to dust the broom.

31

32 >>>Perhaps the "accomodationist elements of the GOP" can try to accomodate people to their right instead of their left for a change. That would avoid the dreaded party split. And "people to their right" seem to make up a majority of Americans.

Flenser, can you provide any evidence apart from merely hoping it so that conservatives now make up a majority of the country?

33 Never give up, never surrender.

34 Oops on the last post.  Now we need to hound the shit out of the RNC and state committees to CLOSE THE PRIMARIES!

I am caps lock, hear me roar!

35 Conform or be cast out!

36 You guys act like you're the only people forced to accomodate.

Guess what? *I don't agree with you on every damn issue, but I go along generally with you in the interests of party loyatly.*

I am fucking tired of this martyred victim bullshit from the hardline right moaning they always are forced to give.

Hey, it ain't no country picnic for the non-hardliners here, either. Frankly you guys never stop bitching and you never seem to appreciate other people ARE accomodating you all the time.

37 What if the maximalists make too many demands

There is no need to worry here because the maximalists will still vote for the person that is closest to the maximalist position, we just want things not to be rigged against us from the get go.  It will be very rare that a Dede will be nominated in that case. Maximalists and pragmatism are not mutually exclusive.

Oh and good for the RSNC, it looks like the message arrived.

38 You know how many pro-choice or I-don't-have-an-opinion-on-abortion Republican presidential nominees I've had a chance to vote for?

Try fucking zero.

Cry me a river.

39

My continuing worry is: What if the maximalists make too many demands and they and the more accomodationist elements of the GOP never come to terms and both walk away from the table?

 

What we should be doing has already been stated quite clearly by Jim DeMint in an article in the WSJ.  Republicans should state a clear set of principles and say “this is what our Party stands for and this is who we will support”  From that article he said this by way of example:

 

No Child Left Behind didn't win us "soccer moms," but it did cost us our credibility on locally controlled education. Medicare prescription drugs didn't win us a "permanent majority," but it cost us our credibility on entitlement reform. Every year, another Republican quality was tainted: managerial competence, fiscal discipline and personal ethics

 

He is absolutely right. And for you folks who say no pol should ever take a hard stand on a particular issue these can be general principles like “small government”  and lower taxes.

40 No, don't get me wrong. I'm on board with pursuing majorities. I'm just blowing steam in regards to our majorities in recent history, and saying that stronger "maximalists" stand a better chance in far more races than "pragmatists" believe.

I stand by my conviction that Obama can't sink us in Socialism in the time he and his Congressional enablers have left. They can however demonstrate just how wedded to Socialism they are. And that they are doing far better than I thought they would.

We have a serious opportunity in '10 that would be wasted by making that our hill to achieve a majority. All we really need to do is strengthen the "maximalist" representation while taking away the filibuster-proof majority the Dems currently enjoy.

Indeed, I think that is the best possible outcome of '10. That way, the Dems still own all their problems, and Obama is completely lame-ducked.

That said, if we could gain a majority on straight "maximalist" candidates, I wouldn't cry.

41 Try fucking zero.

Worf's not gonna like that.

42

And for the "not a dime's worth of difference" crowd -- A majority in the House gets to conduct investigations of the president and issue subpoenas on a party line vote.

I don't know what that means.

Are you still trying to impeach Clinton or Bush?

 

 

Obama?

Oh god not this shit again....

43 Case question:  Should we support Reichert (R, WA)?   He represents a purple district near Seattle.  He supported Cap-n-Trade, but opposed ObamaCare. 

44 At some point we do have to unite, because we do not have more than 55% of the public with us, and that's under best circumstances.

I stuck with the GOP during the Bush years, in order to prevent the Democrats from literally handing Iraq over to al-Qaeda.  And in return, the GOP gave us openly corrupt contemptuous assholes like Trent F'n Lott.

This whole Dede thing was a drop in the bucket compared to what the GOP dished out to us over and over again during the difficult Bush years, as everybody in Washington played politics with troops dying overseas.

This my sound petty, but I'm in the mood to see the GOP suffer more.  Sure, we will have to unite.  At some point.  But not today.  Not me.

45 I shouldn't have used abortion as a specific example.

My point is that there is always this goddamned feeling I get lurking under the surface of these fights that some people think they're doing me a favor by even letting me vote for their candidates, and never seem to consider that *other people* have their own political aspirations that have to be weighed into the consideration too, and that maybe those other people ARE, in fact, frequently accommodating their political brethren's wishes in order to stay united.

I'm tired of the "We can all unite together if we get precisely our way" kind of bullshit.

46 But we like bitching...Ace, thats why we post here.

47 Perhaps I am a "maximulist", as I believe total all out bloody civil war is preferrable to Goddamned socialism.

48 I'm so enthused to hear Cornyn tell us what the RNC should have been doing already. 

49

..... "Might as well pack it in if we're going to do nothing at all to oppose Obama" ....

If nothing at all describes town hall protest, Tea Party demonstration, and Virgina and New Jersey gubernatorial win, (just to mention a few).

I don't understand, please edumacate me some.

50 >>>I stuck with the GOP during the Bush years, in order to prevent the Democrats from literally handing Iraq over to al-Qaeda. And in return, the GOP gave us openly corrupt contemptuous assholes like Trent F'n Lott.


I don't mean to be an asshole, but the GOP didn't just give you assholes like that; we accepted it too as the price of power, and the only way to win the war.

There are a whole bunch of ugly disgusting compromises one ends up making when in power.

In the minority we can all be pure.

That is how it works.

51

 I did not say that "conservative make up a majority of the country".

I said that the majority of the country is to the right of the liberal north-eastern wing of the GOP. And it's the liberal north-eastern wing of the GOP which we're being told we need to accomodate. They are the tail wagging the dog.

In general terms, I'm saying that the GOP will have a much easier path back to power if it stops obsessing over the north-east and starts worring about picking up seats in states which are pretty conservative but which send Democrats to DC.

Take the millions we're spending on candidates like Dede, Chafee, Specter etc and use it to elect conservative Republicans in places like North Dakota which currently give Reid his filibuster proof majority.

 

52
You know how many small government, lower taxes, personal responsibility instead of nannie state solution Republican presidential nominees I've had a chance to vote for?
One.

53 Can't read the headline and first couple sentences bc ads are blocking them.

54

Guess what? *I don't agree with you on every damn issue, but I go along generally with you in the interests of party loyatly.*

Ace,

I might buy that point from you.  I don't buy that from the main offending squishes--they really are on the other side and are only caucusing with the Republicans for their own selfish interests. 

As with Scozzafavvabean--if you call yourself a Republican and endorse a Democrat, that makes you a Democrat.  Arlen Specter had exasperated conservatives for as long as I can remember.  That anyone associated with the conservative party (small "c") could even contemplate voting for the Thing^tm 
makes me question their loyalty.  Of course it does.

The fate of the Republic hangs on the next two election cycles.  We better get it right.

55 When will the NRCC follow suit?

The national party should not take sides in primaries except in the most extreme circumstances (as in a David Duke running in the primary).  By the same token, the contenders in the primaries should pledge to support whomever wins the primary (barring the David Duke scenario).

And yes, primaries should be closed.

56 Case question:  Should we support Reichert (R, WA)?   He represents a purple district near Seattle.  He supported Cap-n-Trade, but opposed ObamaCare.

Not living in King cnty and such, I would say yes. You take what you can get in this liberal mecca of a leftist shithole.

57 Ace: I'm tired of the "We can all unite together if we get precisely our way" kind of bullshit.

Everybody does this.  You, me, everybody, everywhere.  Welcome to Life.  Enjoy your stay.

But then again, I'm a Calvinist, you see.

58

WTF is a “maximalist” and why do we need new terms when we never defined the old terms?

 

59

The RNSC better get out of the Crist race NOW!!! 

So many of us in Florida are so pissed off at the RNSC, we literally can't wait 9 more months to pull the lever for Rubio.

Words are cheap, Cornyn. 

60

If Hoffman or a similar genuine Republican had been backed in the 23rd district by the party apparatus from the beginning, it would have been a Republican win.  The GOP caused this outcome, but clearly had the option not to.

Re: Scozzafava. Have we seen the last of that smelly creature?

61

Sorry, meant NRSC . . .

 

62 >>>I said that the majority of the country is to the right of the liberal north-eastern wing of the GOP. And it's the liberal north-eastern wing of the GOP which we're being told we need to accomodate.

I don't know where you are getting this. I am talking about most purple states and contested districts.

You don't have to be in the Northeast to be liberal, for god's sakes. Missouri is in the geographic heart of the country and it is perfectly balanced between conservative, conservative-moderate, moderate, moderate-liberal, and liberal.

What the hell is this drumbeat about pure conservativism carrying all these states when pure conservativism would need a great candidate ad a bit of luck to carry missouri?

63

You tell 'em Ace.

Come a little closer little buddy, I've never seen a Real Ewok before.

64 It's nothing personal, Ace, at least not with me, and I certainly don't take personal offense at anything you've posted.

I completely sympathize with your position. It is similar to that held by many of my friends, and even my wife.

The difference between your position and mine is that you perhaps err too heavily on the side of "the art of the possible", while I may err too heavily on focusing on where the final destination should be.

I truly believe my "maximalist" strategy over the past 3 years is best, and I truly believe the last 8 months, and yesterday in particular, support my position strongly.

65 Why are there open primaries in the first place? What good purpose are they alleged to serve?

66 My new "Maximalist" mentality:  ZERO $s for the RNC, NRCC or the rest, ALL my $s will now go to candidates I LIKE. 

Sorry to be so extreme...

67 But Ace, why do Republicans' 35 percent have to yield to get the remainder and the Democrats' 35 percent never do?

68 Ace: In the minority we can all be pure.

That is how it works.

Exactly what we are saying.  Now is the time of The Fire That Purifies.  That is how you benefit from your time in the minority.  Toss a few more GOP apparatchiks on the barbie.

69 I'm with Ace.  I purposely changed party affiliation to R in Illinois, after 30+ years as a registered D. (I always voted R in the general) I wanted a chance to vote for teh Fred in the primary. I got family that should be ready-made Republicans, but they can't get the social conservative boogey man outta their heads.  If the R's could dampen their socially conservative zeal, and highlight their fiscal conservatism, they really would be in the majority-for a long time.

70 Again, I think, for most maximalists we want the PARTY to move farther to the right and have our 1 vote count.  We will still vote in the general for the pragmatist choice if they win the primary, but we get the feeling if our guy wins the primary, that wouldn't be the case for the pragmatist.  I still think running to the right of center wins the majority, even for democrats.

71 circa,

I don't buy it from Scozzer either. But I do get this feeling sometimes, this idea that NO ONE in the party is compromising EXCEPT the put-upon hardliners, who are always willing to bend and stuff, but who will allow their gentle, accommodating natures to be abused no further.

It's silly. The party is always bending to the hardliners, too. Someone is always bending to someone else.

Seriously, some of you hardliners? You're no picnic.

72 For 2010, there should only be one "litmus" test:

Are you willing to help stop Obama's destruction of our economy?

Because if he succeeds, then either the Chinese or the UN will be setting our abortion, marriage, immigration and environmental policies, and our views on those issues really won't matter at all.

73 Flame ON!

74 I am so screwed.

Posted by: Charlie Crist

I'd ask how Marco Rubio's ass tastes, but you might enjoy that...

75 Hey, they only pissed away a million bucks or so on a complete goat fuck that was very winnable had everyone involved not had a terminal case of cranio-rectal impaction.

That million bucks split 5 ways would NEVER EVER have had a significant impact on 5 tight races elsewhere in 2010, no way, not possible, right?

76

Hey ace if you are trying to get people here to be "party first" people you got your work cut out for you. Try my job it is much easier.

77 >>>But Ace, why do Republicans' 35 percent have to yield to get the remainder and the Democrats' 35 percent never do?

Never do?

Really?

You know what they want?

Have they gotten it yet?

Gay marriage, full-on socialism, putting the US military under control of the United Nations, on and on and on and on....

They want single payer. Not fake single payer through the public option but real, in your face, not even disguising it single payer.

Do they have these things?

78 Before we kill one another... Hey, this is great news!  Along with a bunch of other good news yesterday.

79 Why are there open primaries in the first place? What good purpose are they alleged to serve?

Independents were weeping and wailing because they never got a chance to participate in the primaries of Parties they never wanted to join.

Hope that helps.

80

My point is that there is always this goddamned feeling I get lurking under the surface of these fights that some people think they're doing me a favor by even letting me vote for their candidates, and never seem to consider that *other people* have their own political aspirations that have to be weighed into the consideration too, and that maybe those other people ARE, in fact, frequently accommodating their political brethren's wishes in order to stay united.

 

I'm very cognizant of that fact, and wish it were more out in the open. I know that some of the bloggers here are not on board with the full spectrum of conservative positions.

But let me politely suggest that you "moderates" or pragmatists can blind yourself to political reality as easly as the rest of us. It's always tempting to believe that ones own political leanings are the ones the GOP should adapt. That's a failing you can succumb to as easily as I can.

The true center of gravity in American politics is socially conservative, fiscally liberal, and somewhat isolationist. If the GOP's goal is merely to win power and keep it, that's the platform we should adapt.

In reality we are all interested in politics not because we want power for its own sake but because we care about some specific goals.

81

I want a parlimentary system.

Problem solved.

82 Remember, the hard-core Dems are having a tough time contending with their Blue Dogs in their efforts to foist socialism on us all.

Bottom line: We have to compromise.  The question is: How much?

83

If the R's could dampen their socially conservative zeal, and highlight their fiscal conservatism, they really would be in the majority-for a long time .

You see, that is ALL media hype. The social-cons do not run the party and never have. They actually make up only a small portion of the party except ion a few very religious parts of some States.

 

Time to go watch Beck, but he is out with Appendicitis.

84 "If you are going to be raped, just lay back and enjoy it"

85 I'm not a "maximalist" or a hard-liner.  There's something else at work with me, and, I suspect, with many others.

Look, I don't mind compromising on various issues.  We all have to do it, every time we vote.  I'm a political moderate.  I'm one of the more liberal posters here!  It's not about ideological rigidity for me.

Look, Obama is going to have two terms.  As you noted on health care, it's the intra-Democrat debates that are most important to the country right now.  Our votes don't matter much right now.  So yeah, I think this is a great time to burn down the GOP and rebuild it.  Not on lines of ideological purity, which is not even theoretically possible.  But in terms of basic work ethics.

I mean, Trent Lott.  Seriously.

86 You have to fight the maximalist fight in order to even get a whiff of acceptable compromise.  Anything else will be too watered down to even notice. These extremes left and right made this country. I don't think of it as a means to an end, it will never end...maybe thats the way it should be. The pendulum swings both ways, I think its that balance that we are all fighting for. The only way we effectively wage our war is with bold differences.

87

I want a parlimentary system.

Problem solved.

I want to be Emperor.

All problems solved and/or solutions in place by next Friday at 5PM or you can exile me to St. Helena and slowly poison me with arsenic.

What?  Too derivative?

88

The more I read into this article, though, the more weasel-like the language gets.  "Cornyn said the NRSC is only endorsing in races where -- like in Crist's case -- the candidate specifically requests its stamp of approval. He said that -- notwithstanding any endorsements -- his group would even offer advice on hiring and strategy to GOP challengers, like Rubio, who haven't been endorsed."

So it sounds like they're not going to pull their endorsement of Crist.  "Jerks" is the kindest word I can come up with for them. 

89

 I shouldn't have used abortion as a specific example.

I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but I can not vote for a pro-abortion candidate. Ever. Can Not. You will leave people like me with a choice of actively supporting evil, or staying home. It is not negotiable. Everything else is a trade-off. Not that.

90 Posted by: thethinmanreturns at November 04, 2009 04:54 PM (W3XUk)

I can't speak to your specific problems with Social Conservatism, as I don't know the platforms of those who campaign in your area. And frankly, it doesn't really matter IMO.

I would be willing to bet that the alarmism of the local media blows the So-Con agenda completely out of proportion. There is no easy answer. So-Con is part of the package of the Right.

The difference is that most So-Con legislators are not pursuing that agenda in Federal office, whereas most So-Lib legislators cannot wait to impose their agenda on the country.

91

The two sides of this argument have a better chance of convincing me to watch a football game instead of Sex and the City than coming to an agreement.

92

I think I might have to separate the maximalists between the guys who will *risk* further Democratic power, and those who actively *seek* further Democratic power, on some twisted theory...

I knew Scozzafozza was true blue red.

93 And yes, primaries should be closed.

I've asked this before and only gotten flames in response, but how are you planning on verifying that everyone who checks the "R" box on their voter registration (online, at the DMV, at the State Fair, from the phone book, at the polls themselves in some states, etc) actually believes the things the GOP purports to believe and isn't doing some lefty version of Operation Chaos?

I've no problem with "only registered party members get to vote in primaries" but it's not going to provide the purity you think you will.

94

Hey ace if you are trying to get people here to be "party first" people you got your work cut out for you. Try my job it is much easier.

Yeah no shit.

I'd sooner go down on Dede Scozzafava.

95 Ace: Seriously, some of you hardliners? You're no picnic.

Ain't life grand?

But seriously, I thought the whole point was over strategy, not policy.  I thought we were, mostly at least, in agreement on policy.

Where do have you strayed Ace?  Step forward into the light and be examined. (In a strictly platonic sort of way, of course.  I mean, you know...)

96 Look, Obama is going to have two terms.

Get thee behind me, Satan!

97
"Yielding" to assholes like John McCain, who complained bitterly about people who wanted our borders secured, was the tipping point. If he didn't have Sarah on the ticket, barry would have had a landslide.

98

I want a parlimentary system.

Problem solved.

Hear, hear!

99 Here is the simple fact: when the GOP governs as small government types, they are popular. When they govern as big government-types, they lose - big time. What you call a "pragmatist", I call someone who (1) thinks that the American people are too stupid to understand simple truths; and/or (2) you're not all that convinced that you're right.

100 "Cornyn said the NRSC is only endorsing in races where -- like in Crist's case -- the candidate specifically requests its stamp of approval."

Wow.

So they're letting us know that they heard us loud and clear, but that they really don't give a shit.

How often did they offer unsolicited endorsements in the past?

101

I want to be Emperor.

All problems solved and/or solutions in place by next Friday at 5PM

I want to be God.

All problems solved now, including you.

102 >>>I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but I can not vote for a pro-abortion candidate. Ever. Can Not. You will leave people like me with a choice of actively supporting evil, or staying home. It is not negotiable. Everything else is a trade-off. Not that.

Which is why I go along with it. But I'm tired of this endless caterwauling that the more hardline guys on any specific issue are the only ones who have to bend.

There just seems to be very little recognition that others are, in fact, accommodating you.

And it's tedious. I have never gotten to vote for a candidate I 100% agreed with. And yet some are basically saying something along the lines of "You've gotten your dream candiates every year, now we want ours!"

Christmas, fucking John McCain keeps getting laid at my feet, and frankly... well I will avoid assigning blame for that one, in the interests of not starting a flamewar.

103 "Christmas, fucking John McCain keeps getting laid at my feet, and frankly... well I will avoid assigning blame for that one, in the interests of not starting a flamewar."

Damn you, Huckabee!

104 Everyone that is still commenting here really loved me didn't they???? It sure sounds like it so let's get back together!

105 well I will avoid assigning blame for that one, in the interests of not starting a flamewar.

pussy.

106 old guy,

I don't think I've "strayed" from a doctrinal ideal. I think you're wrong about what the doctrinal ideal ought to be.

107 well I will avoid assigning blame for that one, in the interests of not starting a flamewar

Translation: It's Entropy's fault.

108 One thing I'm not clear on that Ace and other "pragmatists" may have covered, is why our message can't win in any state/district, even blue ones?  IOW, why doesn't lower taxes, more freedom, strong defense, less government work everywhere, which then creates a need for less "pure" candidates in some situations? 

Is it the message, the methods, the audience, some of all?

109 Kyle Canyon: If he didn't have Sarah on the ticket, barry would have had a landslide.

I would hazard a guess that a very sizable chunk of his "support" were really voting for Palin.  I know I was.

110

Translation: It's Entropy's fault.

As your Emperor:  Word.

111 Ace, the closest you'll get to a pro-choice republican presidential candidate, in your lifetime,  is one who believes the matter should be decided by the individual states.

112 IOW, why doesn't lower taxes, more freedom, strong defense, less government work everywhere

You want to cut funding for our children's schools?  You heartless monster!  (etc.)

113 108...I forgot to say, it's almost like some people don't believe those conservative ideas/foundations are good enough on their own, so we have to get creative/squishy. 

Rush often states conservatives win when they run as conservatives, but it seems to me some of the pragmatists don't buy into this argument?

Is that an accurate sentiment among the pragmatist?

114

why our message can't win in any state/district, even blue ones?

The poison runs too deep in some places.  California STILL cannot seem to fathom that you cannot mandate, regulate and tax your way to solvency let alone prosperity. 

115

I don't agree with the analysis I'm hearing to the effect that the GOP's problems, especially in the north-east, stem from "hardliners" on the subjects of social and fiscal policy.

I live in the north-east. I have friends from across the political spectrum. I've watched the political ads here in the 2006 and 2008 elections. And the cold hard fact is that what has killed the GOP in this part of the country is the war.

We all know this, isn't it time we faced up to it and dealt with it? Of the three legs of the party (fiscal, social, and foreign policy) it's the foreign policy leg which is the rickty one.

I don't have a good solution to that problem, but admitting the problem is there is often a good first step.

116 Here's a serious question: people who vote based on abortion, what do you hope to accomplish? I mean, I don't want to spend federal money on abortions, but I'm generally opposed to federal outlays beyound defense, intelligence and basic infrastructure. Beyond that, what can a President do? He has no role in getting constitutional amendments through. He can nominate SCOTUS Justices, but that will just throw it to the states. Is that the end game? Throw it to the states?

117 Ace:  I have never gotten to vote for a candidate I 100% agreed with. And yet some are basically saying something along the lines of "You've gotten your dream candiates every year, now we want ours!"

So tell us and be honest.  What is your "dream candidate" if it is not a rock solid conservative?  Not being feisty, but you seem to be morphing into The Other and that frightens the women folk, and Vic.

118 ace at November 04, 2009 04:41 PM (p+lWQ)

Is that what it comes down to? You just want a pro-choicer?

119 why doesn't lower taxes, more freedom, strong defense, less government work everywhere

Who votes to cut off their own welfare check?

120 Throw it to the states?

That's where it belongs, per federalism.  However, ain't ever gonna happen.  Abortion will probably always be legal on a national scale.  I think the best pro-lifers can hope for is a late-term ban.

121 The Hammer:

Because those aren't the foundational messages that every "Maximalist" candidate would run on.

Because no matter what word you use, "Purist", "Maximalist", "Neo-Con"... you cannot possibly encompass all the variations of "Republican" that any candidate may run on.

I think the answer is a minimalist Conservative platform that 99% of the Right could rally behind, and creating and pushing the definition of that platform should be Steele's Primary focus. I don't see him doing this, which is unfortunate.

Let individual campaigns then fill in the blanks to reflect the issues of their constituents.

122 Ace: old guy,

I don't think I've "strayed" from a doctrinal ideal. I think you're wrong about what the doctrinal ideal ought to be.

Sorry, I'm having trouble keeping up with the speed of the posts.  You guys need to type slower and I need to read faster.  Anyway, as someone who is a fan of your work, what is your view of  "what the doctrinal ideal ought to be"?

123 Ace, you wrote:

I am tired of this martyred victim bullshit from the hardline right moaning they always are forced to give.

So now we get to the true meaning of "maximalist."

124 >>>Ace, the closest you'll get to a pro-choice republican presidential candidate, in your lifetime, is one who believes the matter should be decided by the individual states.

I understand that and I don't complain about it. I accept it.

There are many 2nd-A absolutists who believe the constitution forbids outlawing machineguns.

Such people are "pure." In fact-- to be honest, their reading of the 2ndA makes the most sense.

Trouble is, if we read it like that, it gets amended in a year, and who knows what else they might restrict while they're in there.

And... um, 80% of the public disagrees. Most of them, quite strongly.

Anyway, should the purists on constitutionally-protected machine-gun ownership get their way, too? Should every candidate make that a central element of their pitch?

If not why not? I keep being told that the purer, less apologetic version of conservatism on every issue should be a winner.

it seems most have a realization of what is politically *possible,* and will yield to that reality, but you also want to just natter on rhetorically about 100% unadulterated conservative doctrine being the cure for all of life's political ills.

I mean, are you *serious* about your rhetoric or are you just spouting off? If you're serious, let's have some agitation to kick out any RINO who doesn't support machine-gun ownership.

125

I really have nothing to add to these discussions because I consider them pointless. I ain't trying to beat someone up to be a "pragmatist" or beat them up if they are one. Go ahead either or whatever floats your boat it is not an argument you can "win". "You" (not pointing fingers at anyone in particular on either side) are veering into a side of the argument that can have competing goals which is why it is impossible to "win".

126 The real crux of this seems to be an attempt to temper (or remove) the impact of social conservatism within the GOP.  The pro-life movement, opposition to same-sex partnerships, and the establishment and perpetuation of the "War on Drugs" have all been forays into the legislation of socially conservative morality by "conservatives".  They are all infringements by the government on individual liberty.  Personally, I think the purge should have happened long ago. 

I think Maximalist folks actually believe in in limited government and individual liberty.  A lot of us think they are the most fundamental of rights that should not be bargained away to the government.  The founding fathers were pretty damn certain to  point it out to us all throughout the declaration and the constitution. 

We are still an overwhelmingly Christian nation.  I think if the right stopped trying to legislate religion and just let it happen, then the left wouldn't have to politicize as much crap to retaliate.  Religion is THE wedge issue. 

When I talk to my liberal friends, I can find common ground with them on a lot of issues by actually thinking about politicall issues more conservatively

 I'm a Christian, btw. 

127 According to two hyped recent polls, about 40% of voters identify as conservative, and about 20% have positions that add up to a kind of not-very-serious libertarianism (like Stossel, not Rothbard). Those numbers probably overlap some, but it's about half of everybody who already votes.

I don't know of any solid data on this, but everyone I know who doesn't vote, ever, out of dissatisfaction with the available candidates and parties, is either a cranky instinctual conservative or an unphilosophical Stossel/Palin-style almost-libertarian.

(The lefties I know who don't vote don't bother because they're well-represented and/or lazy, and serious libertarians don't vote because they think it's immoral and/or retarded.)

So there's something like, and possibly something considerably more than, a majority of not-crazy right-ish voters available. But there's no right-ish party for them to vote for. There should be one, if only to see how it does.

When the GOP talked actual righty talk (not the Progressive-lite shit of Huckabee, McCain, Romney, etc.) through Reagan, and in '94, they won hugely. And those are the only times they did.

I don't think they actually want to win and govern. But if they do, that's how to get there -- not by squishing the other way.

128

 Of the three legs of the party (fiscal, social, and foreign policy) it's the foreign policy leg which is the rickty one.

Tell me how it is rickety for Republicans? 

I'm completely onboard with the idea that the original after action plan for Iraq was a colossal screw up.  However--we live in the present and Iraq is in reasonably good shape.  The surge was effective and things are now different.  There is a lesson there for Afghanistan, I think--so does Gen. McChrystal from all indications. 

129 what I mean is: If the 2nd Amendment protects the right of the citizenry to carry weapons for the purposes in serving in a militia (citizen army), then it guarantees the right to carry weapons suitable for those purposes.

The automatic M16 and various military machineguns are more suitable for those purposes than shotguns or handguns.

Ergo, of the 2nd A means what it seems to, we really should be talking about our right to own machineguns and assault rifles.

130 Republicans just need a "maximalist" who can talk like a "pragmatist" or whatever. That's what Obama was, right? A socialist who didn't talk like a socialist?

That's what all democrats do. They lie about what they are and what they want to do.

The real problem here is the Republican party is the only one who actually seriously considers its candidates. Democrats will vote for any retard with a D after their name or will promise them cool stuff.

131 I live in the north-east. I have friends from across the political spectrum. I've watched the political ads here in the 2006 and 2008 elections. And the cold hard fact is that what has killed the GOP in this part of the country is the war.

This is #1 or #2 on the issue importance polls of independents.

I think it's a bigger problem for the GOP than they think.

132

By the way am I the only one here who ever had an ex girlfriend that would NEVER stop arguing until you gave up even if you were right to the 100th degree? God that is annoying.

 

133 Well, to be precise, we can own machine guns.

We just need a special permit, and to be in a city/state that allows it.

Certainly, equal-protection arguments abound, but I think your argument would be better served using something like artillery pieces.

134

I think if the right stopped trying to legislate religion and just let it happen, then the left wouldn't have to politicize as much crap to retaliate. 

Spock has a beard in your universe.

But in this one, things are the other way around. The left are not "retaliating", they have the initative.

135 Ace: "So my fear is, and will continue to be, that in some cases, with all this stare-down poker going on, there is going to be a genuine bust-up and seething anger between the two sides that results in some unnecessary Democratic victories."

Glenn Reynolds said the other day that the power of a sword of Damocles is that it hangs. Once dropped, the theory goes, it loses all its power.

And while that may be true ... if they don't believe you will ever let it drop then it also loses all its power.

"Some unnecessary Democratic victories" ... as you put it ... is the price to be paid by those conservatives wielding the sword. They have to let the hidden liberals in the GOP on the other side of the poker table know that sometimes they will call the bluff. Otherwise, you get run over and they whittle your chips down to nothing.

That's why in the calculus of NY23 it's a victory for conservatives over "moderates" (which really means Secret-Democrats-In-Disguise). If Owens doesn't win, then the sword doesn't drop and the liberal elite in the GOP doesn't wet their panties.

Thankfully, Hoffman lost and Owens won. Now, secret Democrats in the GOP elite are wetting themselves, because they fear the real possibility of a Conservative Party.

A third party that guarantees not that Democrats win ... but that ensures that Republicans lose!

136 Ah hail, he's stirred up the abortion nuts.  Do not care.  You wanna abortion? Awesome!  You want the death penalty for abortion service providers?  Thats great too!  Whatever, fine, go have fun.  Can we please just cut Federal spending to a sane percentage of the GDP?

137 It took me a while to get to the point I want to make because it was the M vs. P straw man argument and I was playing along;

I want the republican party to give me a chance to vote for someone to right of the damn democrat in the race.  Its that simple.

(especially on fiscal matters because this country is in deep doo-doo; and abortion and gay marriage will not be anywhere near anybody's concern if we go Weimar.)

138 Ace: I mean, are you *serious* about your rhetoric or are you just spouting off? If you're serious, let's have some agitation to kick out any RINO who doesn't support machine-gun ownership.

Ace, the problem is your choice of the word "purist".  You choose that word and then demand that the rest of us defend it.  That, I believe, is called a strawman.

139

I think it's a bigger problem for the GOP than they think.

It isn't a problem if you talk straight, talk consequences and most of all--show decisiveness.  The most shameful portion of the Republican nomination process was the period leading up to the surge when almost everyone (except McCain--interesting point) ran like hell from Bush's position.

140

I think if the right stopped trying to legislate religion and just let it happen, then the left wouldn't have to politicize as much crap to retaliate. 

 

When have they been legislating religion? How the hell do you legislate religions anyway other than in shitholes like Iran.

141 You know how many pro-choice or I-don't-have-an-opinion-on-abortion Republican presidential nominees I've had a chance to vote for?

How many pro-choice or I-don't-have-an-opinion-on-abortion Republican presidential nominees are actual fiscal conservatives? In practice, not just in theory. I have yet to come across one that fits the bill. Rudy Giuliani was probably the closest I've ever seen and even he was squishy on some fundamental rights stuff (like gun control), which is another sort-of essential tenet. 

Look, I know that some of the more strident voices seem to come from the social conservative side; however, if you read through the threads on this subject over the past several days, you'll notice that a very large portion of us- even those who are pretty hard-core social cons- are willing to compromise on that stuff (or at least to compromise on candidates who are more Federalist in their approach to those issues) so long as we can get the fiscal house in order. Presumably, that would make the more "moderate" wing of the party happy- as they always insist that they would be perfectly content with a GOP that was fiscally conservative so long as the social stuff was left out.

The problem is that it seems to be damn near impossible to find a genuine fiscal conservative who fits that compromise bill. Maybe the pragmatists who are genuinely trying to get more electable candidates (and not the ones who are just trying to reshape the party in their liberal image, a la Frum) should start working on that instead of constantly beating the rest of us over the head with the "reality" that our principles should be thrown out the window in favor of winning.

A big part of the problem, as many of the "maximalists" see it, is that it ain't just the social stuff we're being asked to throw over.

142 I mean, are you *serious* about your rhetoric or are you just spouting off? If you're serious, let's have some agitation to kick out any RINO who doesn't support machine-gun ownership.

Posted by: ace at November 04, 2009 05:20 PM (p+lWQ)

See, ace. This is the poker metaphor, right?

Pragmatists (God I hate these new terms) go into a debate expecting to lose, so they are prostrating themselves immediately as they try to get a somewhat decent deal.

Maximalists (could the term suck more?) go in expecting to win everything, but would probably settle for less if the cards are against them.

I'm all for both in the party, given that the pragmatists aren't the ones negotiating anything. They will give up a little immediately, only to give up a  lot more by the end of the game. At least a maximalist will try to get everything and will end up walking out with a lot more, because he was hiding his cards.

You don't go all-in at every hand, but you certainly don't fold every time 2 cards are placed before you. And that's what moderates do. They can't explain their totally random positions on issues cuz they conflict with each other, so they have to compromise and compromise and eventually lose everything.

143 Seriously, some of you hardliners? You're no picnic.

I want that on my tombstone:  He was no picnic.





and you kids! Get off my grave!

144 Wow, things have really become polarized around here, and quickly. Sure kills the buzz from yesterday!

Maybe we wouldn't be so polarized if we didn't have these two dubious poles, "pragmatism" and "maxmalism", attracting us.

For my part, I'm neither. Does that make me a "moderate"?

145
Where is the weed smokin', AK totin', 'shine brewin', lezbo pron readin', anti-gubmint slick talker who will unite the party?

146 The surge was effective and things are now different.  There is a lesson there for Afghanistan, I think--so does Gen. McChrystal from all indications.

The terrain differences between Iraq and Afghanistan are just gigantic.  Any Afghan plan is going to be 3-4 times longer than any Iraq plan.

I don't know how you explain the global strategic issues of all the players focusing in on Afghanistan to voters anywhere let along in the NE.

How long will Americans stomach a plan in Afghanistan?

147

Tell me how it is rickety for Republicans? 

It's politically unpopular, especially in the north-east. (It seems that the north-east is the crux of this debate.)

 

However--we live in the present and Iraq is in reasonably good shape. 

No doubt. And we have a Dem Congress in the present also, in large part because of what happened in Iraq in the past.

148 Sorry for the typo. I was channeling a Freudian slip for Ace.

149

It isn't a problem if you talk straight, talk consequences and most of all--show decisiveness. 

Then it is (or was) a problem.

150

Ergo, of the 2nd A means what it seems to, we really should be talking about our right to own machineguns and assault rifles.

That's right. We do have the right to own machine guns. But most people don't mind reasonable restrictions on that right. If you pass a background check for criminal behavior, and pay a license fee, you CAN buy and own a machine gun. Most people don't have a need for one, and can't afford to own or operate one. They have no sporting use, only a weapon of war. Thus, most people have no problem with reasonable restrictions. But if you really think the laws prevent criminals from buying and using them, you are kidding yourself. The issue of gun control gets serious when general restrictions designed to curtail your rights are considered. The NRA does not oppose machine gun restrictions, but when the nutroots start calling a Model 94 Winchester an assault rifle, that's where to draw the line.

151 Posted by: lorien1973 at November 04, 2009 05:28 PM (IhQuA)

nicely put

152 And the cold hard fact is that what has killed the GOP in this part of the country is the war.

Yup.  Sad but true.

The public is fickle, though, and the pendulum will swing back to the Republicans.  What we need to do now is make sure there's a credible party waiting to take power back from the Democrats when they wear out their welcome.

153

Here's a serious question: people who vote based on abortion, what do you hope to accomplish?

There is a lot of evil in the world I can't stop. I will never let that stop me from calling it evil. And I will never give it support.

Which western nation practicing abortion is not currently dying?

154 I think people are upset with the Party leadership. The leadership see a changing electoral landscape and want to reach out to these voters by becoming more liberal or more like the Democrats. They won't say that specifically, but you get their drift. Purists believe instead of pandering we need to persuade.

155

And the cold hard fact is that what has killed the GOP in this part of the country is the war

 

If that were true McLame would have been killed in New Hampshire.

 

And for you people who think it is har-line to believe the 2^nd amendment allows you to own a machine gun think about this.

 

Most of the country, as well as the courts, thought that up until the 20^th century. It was legal to own a machine gun up until Chicago crime lords started blasting everyone at the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre.

 

Pardon me but my copy of the Constitution contains no clause for the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre.

 

Even after they passed that law and SCOTUS botched their ruling on sawed off shotguns, they did not ban machine guns. You could still own them but you had to get a special permit and pay a transfer “tax”.

 

And I do not believe I am a hard-liner so much as I believe you aught to follow the Constitution as it is written or legally change it. Otherwise it is not worth a shit or the paper it is printed on.

 

And that is my definition of a real “conservative”.

 

156

For illustration -

Consequences of an election where the candidates are a Democrat, a Republican (who is really a Democrat), and a Conservative who enters the race as a third party candidate.

Possibility 1 - Democrat wins

Possibility 2 - Republican (who is really a Democrat) wins = Democrat wins = little or no difference from possibility 1 and Republicans lose twice because there is now another effing Democrat caucusing with the Republicans.

Possibility 3 - Conservative wins = Republican wins

Over the top complicated!

157 Johnathan E. at November 04, 2009 05:34 PM (dQdrY)

No one elected since RVW has passed has over-turned it nor have they even tried. It simply ain't happening.

However, if you modify the landscape, you can get people to support:
Parental notification, Banning partial birth abortion, etc.

These sorts of things carry huge majorities - in both parties. Technology (ultrasounds) is your best way to make abortions end - as people see the 3-d baby in them, instead of a gray blob on the screen.

RVW is just a false bludgeon to cause fear in one party or the other. The traditional battle lines need to be broken.

158

Madddog

 

BTW, the ability to pay a transfer tax and get a class III license only applies to machine guns made prior to 1968. They passed another illegal new law a few years ago.

159

I think if the right stopped trying to legislate religion and just let it happen, then the left wouldn't have to politicize as much crap to retaliate. 

Spock has a beard in your universe.

But in this one, things are the other way around. The left are not "retaliating", they have the initative.

Posted by: flenser at November 04, 2009 05:25 PM (sQ1SI)

From my perspective, this seems pretty accurate. I never really cared all that much about the social issues until I was told I was a horrible bigot who should have my children taken away from me because I was brainwashing them (true story!) because I attended church. And of course, those same terms apply if you don't buy into the entire litany of socially liberal policies. In other words, it wasn't even on my radar until it was shoved in my face by the left.

160

How long will Americans stomach a plan in Afghanistan?

A few points:

1.  We're better at COIN now--technologically, tactically, strategically--hell, institutionally, so the overall burden will not be as great as Iraq.

2.  Americans understand the nature of threats if they are laid out.  Afghanistan without the U.S. led to the worst day of almost every living American's adult life.  Afghanistan without the U.S. this time invites the dangerous enemy back--this time with a wobbly, but nuclear-armed Pakistan next door plus a nutso and soon-to-be-nuclear armed Iran int he other direction.

3.  The world will watch and learn from our actions in Afghanistan.  For good and ill.

And here's the frightening part--I think most Americans understand these points.  I'm am unconvinced that their President does.

161 "When have [the GOP] been legislating religion? How the hell do you legislate religions anyway other than in shitholes like Iran."

Pro-life movement, opposition to same sex unions (not marriage), and the drug war are all the legislation of conservative Christian morality (Southern Baptists and Evangelicals leading the charge, natch) upon America at large.   Shariah turns sins under the Koran into crimes.  The social cons in America want to turn sins under the bible into crimes as well, but instead of Shariah they are calling it democracy.  Wake up! 

162

38 You know how many pro-choice or I-don't-have-an-opinion-on-abortion Republican presidential nominees I've had a chance to vote for?

Try fucking zero.

Cry me a river. -

I think maybe I'll cry a river for all those murdered unborn babies instead. And if you don't think it's murder, try this definition on for size; The pre-meditated taking of an innocent, defensless human life.

163

The social cons in America want to turn sins under the bible into crimes as well, but instead of Shariah they are calling it democracy.  Wake up! 

Mighty big brush you're using there, sonny. Might want to put it away before someone comes along and shoves it up your ass.

164 Some Dude:  Shariah turns sins under the Koran into crimes.  The social cons in America want to turn sins under the bible into crimes as well, but instead of Shariah they are calling it democracy.  Wake up!

Yeah, that's it!!  They are exactly equivalent.  Baptists and the Taliban are like blood brothers or something.  Gee, thanks for explaining that.  Its all so clear now.

165 Pro-life movement, opposition to same sex unions (not marriage), and the drug war are all the legislation

Umm.. the drug war was the only one of those that caused legislation.  The other 2, abortion and gay marriage were attempts and court decisions by the left.

166 I want that on my tombstone:  He was no picnic.

I want, "What the hell are you looking at?" on mine.

167 The social cons in America want to turn sins under the bible into crimes as well, but instead of Shariah they are calling it democracy.  Wake up!

Is this a joke? I'm not really a social con, but this is pretty bullshit-y. Social conservatism is just a type of control. Economic liberals want to control you with taxes, bureaucrats, etc. Social cons want to do differently, but the goal is pretty similar.

But Shariah? Please.

168 I want "Carpe Feminam" on mine.

169 My ex wants "Carpe Testicularum."

170 but instead of Shariah they are calling it democracy


Uh...that's what democracy IS:  people vote on shit, and the majority wins.

171 You don't get to vote on Sharia Law; it's imposed.

172

@155 Posted by: Vic at November 04, 2009 05:37 PM (CDUiN)  -

Gotta go but I can see I'm leaving you all in good hands. Carry on Vic.

173

Pro-life movement, opposition to same sex unions (not marriage), and the drug war are all the legislation of conservative Christian morality (Southern Baptists and Evangelicals leading the charge, natch) upon America at large.

OK--I have zero--zero problem with being called pro-life, so let's get that out of the way.  They are kids--not abstract constructs.

I'm not sure where you are getting the oppsotion to civil unions thing, because those have the support of overwhelming numbers of people virtually everywhere.

As for the "drug war"--you lost me.  A little weed?  Fine.  Beyond that tread carefully because I'm not sure meth heads are good for the country.  Discuss.

174 My Tombstone : "Your standing on my nuts".

175 To end my thread appearance here, the good news is the dems are having this same conversation today and their purists are going to drag them much further to the left than America can tolerate, and we'll still be bitchin, but winning.

176 Mighty big brush you're using there, sonny. Might want to put it away before someone comes along and shoves it up your ass.

Judging by the way he walks, that may be redundant.

Seriously, could that be a broader and more off-target generalization?

177
Speaking of beards...

did anyone see alternate-universe Fred Thompson on Cavuto's show, today?

178 161 "When have [the GOP] been legislating religion? How the hell do you legislate religions anyway other than in shitholes like Iran."

Pro-life movement, opposition to same sex unions (not marriage), and the drug war are all the legislation of conservative Christian morality (Southern Baptists and Evangelicals leading the charge, natch) upon America at large.   Shariah turns sins under the Koran into crimes.  The social cons in America want to turn sins under the bible into crimes as well, but instead of Shariah they are calling it democracy.  Wake up! 

Posted by: Some Dude at November 04, 2009 05:40 PM (cd96X)

There you go Ace! That's the end result of your "pragmatism". Doesn't look pretty, does it?

179 Speaking of beards...

did anyone see alternate-universe Fred Thompson on Cavuto's show, today?

Posted by: Tweet beats dead horses at November 04, 2009 05:48 PM (U0eMq)

I KNOW! I noticed that a week or so ago. I love FRED! but the beard is not for him.

180 I understand that right now may not be a good time to lead with so-con issues in less than solidly red areas. But the issue of morality having a role in political philosophy is integral to conservatism, and it cannot be divorced entirely. There is a certain point where conservative precepts do not work without a moral basis.

181 The social cons in America want to turn sins under the bible into crimes as well, but instead of Shariah they are calling it democracy.  Wake up!

A political agenda informed by religion is not a second-class agenda, at least not in this country.  If my only reason for wanting a law is based on religion, I might have a hard time convincing you to go along with it if your not a believer, but there's nothing stopping me from trying to get it anyway. 

Nor should there be.

182

I KNOW! I noticed that a week or so ago. I love FRED! but the beard is not for him.

Maybe not, but if it results in Mrs. Fred! showing up in the alt-universe Uhura outfit, I can suspend disbelief for a bit.  I'm a giver.

183

I'd argue that Christianity is an integral part of a successful America.

And I'm an agnostic.

184 There you go Ace! That's the end result of your "pragmatism". Doesn't look pretty, does it?

Posted by: Jim in San Diego at November 04, 2009 05:48 PM (H7Rlw)

I believe my job here is done. 

185
Holy shit, some of you meat-sticks actually believe the religious right is out there acting as political activists, telling people who can get married and who has to have babies.

We're only acting as DEFENSIVE activists, dear friends.

We're sitting back and minding are own business, and here comes the leftwing activists FORCING social change down our throat, imposing their will upon us, not the other way around. I'm sorry, I don't want it.

186

I believe my job here is done.

Adios, motherfucker.

 

187

However, if you modify the landscape, you can get people to support:
Parental notification, Banning partial birth abortion, etc.

These sorts of things carry huge majorities - in both parties. Technology (ultrasounds) is your best way to make abortions end - as people see the 3-d baby in them, instead of a gray blob on the screen.

I agree. I'd take only rape, incest and life of the mother exemptions if that was all I could get. I'd still save a million innocents a year. Not a deal I would walk away from.

188 What's kinda stupid about these discussions is that people think you can get from here to there right away. The tough decisions really don't happen for many cycles.

Incrementally (the same way you get into these situations) you get out of them.

See, I'd make small steps to get us out of it. Support for drug legalization is higher than ever, so I'd make a policy point that says, yes marijuana should be illegal. Maybe other drugs too. But, if its gonna be legal, you have to be responsible too. So, if you want to receive state or federal benefits - you must pass a drug test. You can't have freedom of action without responsibility for that action.

And proceed along those lines. So you get to shrink government and you get to re-insert the notion of responsibility as well. Which, really, is what is missing these days.

189
Remember when Janet Jackson illegally showed her nipple on the Super Bowl broadcast and people complained?

And remember how people said, "Oh shit, there goes the religious right again, the kneejerk reactionaries, trying to censor and ban what they don't like?"

Guess what? It was already banned. The complaints were for decency. The complaints were calls to uphold the existing laws. The religious right didn't want to change anything, they simply wanted this nation of laws to not allow the rules of common decency to be eroded.

I love you people, but some of you are fucking dolts.

But I say that with love. Get your fucking facts straight before start painting the religious right as activist wackadoos.

190

I dont understand how being for a program that, in short, means nothing, stands for nothing, and aims for nothing other than ensuring it's group of initials is on most of the "winners" in an election is being pragmatic?

The GOP has been drifting so steadily leftard that it's, more or less, now where the self identified left was just a generation ago.

There's a good reason why the name Quisling is held in low regard and used as a slur against those who "go along to get along" with the enemy.

In the current situation, I'm having a rather difficult time differentiating between "pragmatists" and capitulaters.

191

Maximalists have some pretty good evidence again today that getting squishy on gay marriage is not a winning political strategy.  My gut tells me that being anti-gay marriage is a loser here in California, but the data just does not reconicle with that.  Time and time again voters reject gay marriage, even in liberal states.  So cowtowing to moderates on that issue is not necessary. 

It really comes down to abortion and legalizing pot doesn't it.   

192 While we're at it, we really need to muzzle all those crazies on the right who believe in that racist border-control crap.

70% of the country can't possibly be right.

193 161

Pro-life movement, opposition to same sex unions (not marriage), and the drug war are all the legislation of conservative Christian morality (Southern Baptists and Evangelicals leading the charge, natch) upon America at large.   Shariah turns sins under the Koran into crimes.  The social cons in America want to turn sins under the bible into crimes as well, but instead of Shariah they are calling it democracy.  Wake up!

That would only barely make sense if the United States had been founded on the principles of abortion, homosexual unions and intoxication.  As for sins in the Bible being defined as crimes under secular law, yes, the Bible does define as sinful such activities as murder, theft, robbery, and perjury: are you saying these only became crimes in American law because of the unwarranted agitation of Southern Baptists and Evangelicals?

You want society to evolve?  Work on the members of that society and get them to evolve their values and beliefs.  Until then, don't expect the majority of citizens in a democracy to be cool with having someone else's morality and values thrust upon them by fiat.

194
The social cons in America want to turn sins under the bible into crimes as well.

Are you fucking high?

Are you tell___ me that same sex marriage was always legal and it was social conservatives who changed all that?

195

I am against abortion. I'd legalize drugs, prostitution and don't really care about gay issues. Feel free to take the stereotypes and insert them.

I became a convert to the pro-life cause because of pictures and ultrasound images, not religion. Murder is murder whether the victim is allowed to draw that first breath to scream with their own voice, or not.

196
Jonathan killed the thread.

Way to go, kid.

But don't get cocky.

/Solo off

197 Since the primaries are allegedly when the party members choose who they want the party to run for them, then it makes sense for the leadership and machine to stay the hell out until the main election. Step back and let your members decide, that's what its for, right?

198 Johnathan E. at November 04, 2009 06:05 PM (dQdrY)

I'm mildly pro-choice. Mainly cuz, quite frankly, I don't give a crap.  Parents make life/death decisions for their children all the time.

I'd go with keeping it legal - as long as father/mother both consent. Parental notification and no partial birth abortions. And set a limit of gestation (say 2nd trimester or whatever) then you can't do it.

I think that if you accept the idea that the baby -is- a human being and deserves equal rates, you have to accept the idea that smoking while pregnant or not taking care of yourself is tantamount to child abuse and needs to be punished. Frankly, I'm not really into the nanny state such government supervision would warrant.

199 Haven't we debated these points, I don't know, like, 7 times the passt few weeks?

200 I'm a purist, so to speak.  I'll never knowingly vote for a pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, pro-gun control, dovish, amnesty, tax-hiking candidate, regardless of any letter beside their name.

Having said that, I believe there are ways my positions can still be winners, even with those who may not agree.  For example, get abortion back to the states and allow for exceptions for rape, incest, mother's health (less than 5% of all abortions, I think). 

Ace brings up the 2nd amendment, but there is room for rational thought there too.  The biggest reason people become "gun nuts" is they know very few politicians have credibility and any attempts to deal with guns "rationally" is really just an attempt to outlaw as many guns as possible.  So, we get a stalemate and the two sides harden in their stances and the left invents ways to restrict a constitutional freedom with no interest in protecting gun ownership. 

If SP, a real gun owner as opposed to John Kerry a photo-op owner, spoke about and introduced reasonable legislation with real safe-guards to protect ownership rights while addressing a crime issue that dealt with guns, she could get backers from the wing-nuts because she has credibility. 

Run conservative candidates who compromise from positions of strength and credibility not because they want to be liked and are actually democrats in republican clothing and you'll go a long way towards healing the GOP.

201 lorien1973, interestingly Roe v Wade (as I read it) would allow the regime you describe. I'm more or less okay with it (except limitation to the first trimester) as an incremental step back.

202 These maximalists are the real pragmatists. Negotiating with a "let's-reach-a-compromise" attitude only works with amenable people. Groups such as most Arabs (I mean this in a business sense), most maximalist leftists (such as Kos, Nancy Pelosi and similar entities) come to the table meaning to take everything. The pragmatic way of negotiating with them is to go for the whole thing. By the way it works. Notice that Barack and his crew are maximalists when dealing with reasonable civilized people, but don't even try to negotiate with totalitarian takover tyrants. Those in the Republican party that try to be reasonable are getting their heads handed to them. Life has become a high stakes game with little room for mistakes.

203  I consider myself a "maximalist" in that I think our challenge is not finding candidates whom match popular sentiment liberalism to the extent necessary to get elected, rather, that they can effectively sell the conservative philosophy and image and move the electorate their direction and win. But I do realize SOME concessions have to be made in many cases to get a "winnable" candidate. The idea that we might need some concessions in order to get elected though, does not in any way diminish the fact that our priority is politicians convincing the electorate to move more to the right.

Let's call it purity, some day later we can argue the exact definition of 100% pure. Now I am not asking for Ivory® level pure, I'm even willing to except Irish Spring® with a few pretty swirls and some perfumes, but stop trying to foist off a Dove® bar as the strongest we can be. And this perpetual meddling of the RNC in local primary races has assured a "Party Recommended and Approved" feel to all of our soap. Whatever we have gained in expediency and unity through this continually left sliding, top heavy, scale pushing, candidate anointing with ceremonial lip service election, process we have been using, we have lost three fold in confusing message and philosophy, lack of future vision, an lack of core principals. This has allowed the quick slide to the left from the Reagan years. I think it is high time some arm twisting for more conservative candidates occurs, and if we have to take a few lumps sorting it out then we need to, otherwise we will find ourselves about as politically relevant as the Whigs.

So can we at least have an agreement in principal? I won't push for Lava® in Berkeley no matter how dirty their hands might be and how much they might need it, and you won't try and tell me Dove® is the only brand we can sell in a blue state. Maybe then we can get some clean hands out there.

204 The Hammer at November 04, 2009 06:12 PM (YBTwf)

I think Ace's point is would you vote for someone who is:

pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage

If you got the rest of it? There are points of negotiation. I would vote for that person. I wouldn't vote for the pro-gun control, dovish, amnesty, tax-hiking candidate, though. Those aren't points of negotiation.

205 >>> My gut tells me that being anti-gay marriage is a loser here in California, but the data just does not reconicle with that.

It is a possibility. Consider that 20% of the vote in favor of banning gay marriage in California was ungettable for the GOP -- blacks, hispanics. (Nice liberals never talk about this.)

The remaining 45% (the iniatiave got like 55%) are for gay marriage. And as we start at 40% (35% white pro prop 8; say 5% more for miniroties who might vote GOP) we still need to get another 10% to get to 50%, and need to carve that 10% out of the 45% in favor of gay marriage.

It's not as if that's impossible, but you can see where it starts to make it hard to get to a majority.

That doesn't mean I think it's a net-vote-loser; I think it's either a slight net vote winner or slight net vote loser. Not an albatross around the neck, but I can see where it could become difficult to get to some persuadable voters who are gaga for gay marriage.

206
Doesn't anyone look at the big picture, anymore?

Rampant abortion is a symptom of a systemic problem. Our culture is sick, it has cancer.

Yes, people are gonna have abortions. But what does it say about our civilization when we have abortion clinics all over the place? Having an abortion has not only become a willy-nilly decision, it has become a lucrative industry.

At what point will people change their mind about abortion? When it's offered in kiosks at the mall? Or at McDonald's as McAbortions?

207 If SP, a real gun owner as opposed to John Kerry a photo-op owner, spoke about and introduced reasonable legislation with real safe-guards to protect ownership rights while addressing a crime issue that dealt with guns, she could get backers from the wing-nuts because she has credibility.

Look, I hate to take this in a completely new direction... but what possible new gun law could be proposed that isn't already covered and doesn't infringe on the 2nd amendment?

Maybe you are just using this as a hypothetical, and that's fine as it stands. But it makes me nervous as hell when someone suggests a new "rational" gun-law proposal.

Or a new "moderate" hate-crime proposal. Or new "moderate" federal-law proposal of any sort.

What rational debate are you proposing?

208

I'd go with keeping it legal - as long as father/mother both consent. Parental notification and no partial birth abortions. And set a limit of gestation (say 2nd trimester or whatever) then you can't do it.

That is depressing. I had a twenty something lefty female argued down to only first trimester just last week. Sorry, the pics I saw were at eight weeks, and nope, can't give that much ground.

209 Tweet beats dead horses at November 04, 2009 06:20 PM (U0eMq)

Your way to stop abortions would be to make kiosks in malls with 3d ultrasounds for pregnant parents to buy photos of their unborn kids. And show sample photos to people walking by. That'll change more minds than some law banning abortion.

210 I think Ace's point is would you vote for someone who is:

pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage

If you got the rest of it? There are points of negotiation. I would vote for that person. I wouldn't vote for the pro-gun control, dovish, amnesty, tax-hiking candidate, though. Those aren't points of negotiation.

Posted by: lorien1973 at November 04, 2009 06:17 PM (IhQuA)

I know your question wasn't directed at me, but as someone who is probably in the more "maximalist" camp, I'd say yes, SO LONG AS that person was a federalist about the issue. I think we're all pretty clear that there is no cookie cutter solution for the social issues, as every area is different. But at least let the people of each area decide for themselves instead of trying to force it on everyone in general. And for the love of God, if it affects the budget (ie, tax-payer funded abortions), vote against it. As I said upthread, the fiscal stuff SHOULD be the stuff everyone agrees upon and so even if a person is pro-abortion, if they were fiscally responsible, we would never see that person vote to use our tax dollars on it.

211 207...you're making my point...there probably isn't any.  But if there were, who it comes from and why matter. 

204...I wouldn't, those are non-negotiable for me.  LIFE LIBERTY PURSUIT...if you can't get those three right, you're not getting my vote.

212

Just so I'm clear, a Maximalist is another word for a Religious Conservative.

Correct?

213 Posted by: lorien1973 at November 04, 2009 06:23 PM (IhQuA)

Fantastic idea!

Great non-confrontational (read, the media would have to completely beclown themselves in their hit pieces) idea for anti-abortionists to spend money on.

214 Mandy P. at November 04, 2009 06:26 PM (MK6Kx)'

You've hit on something else. While people may support abortion, no one wants their tax dollars going to fund it.

So, we have yet another argument republicans could make - no tax dollars for abortions, no partial birth abortions, parental notifications.

Incrementalism. These things aren't seriously hated by anyone - every time they are supported or argued, it's in the back room and end up dying. Polls have huge majorities for these. If you wanna be a -true- social warrior. Pass these first - real change would be affected -and- you wouldn't really piss off half the country by doing it either.

But they saying no abortions ever (except for this that or the other), you eliminate yourself from any further conversation on the real issues of the day.

215 Here's the problem.  The prags accommodate.  That's what makes them prags.  That makes it very unlikely that they will walk away and accept 35%.  If they would, that would make them maxies, not prags.

So the maxis win because they are willing to fight.  Someone who is unwilling to walk away from the negotiation has no power to negotiate.

216 Alex's Cabin at November 04, 2009 06:28 PM (lMgJE)

That's the impression I've gotten.

I haven't seen any pragmatist anywhere suggesting:  Yay! Socialism. Boo! Abortion.

217 Hey - until there is a new administration and a new attorney general, I'm going to be held in the bowels of some unknown federal joint, with NO sentence, for another couple years! If axelrod and the dwarf don't get me out of solitary soon, I pray to to God that the real governor of Illinois, Rod B., calls me as his first witness, before even Val. June, 2010, so I've been told. Right before the midterm elections.

218  if they were fiscally responsible, we would never see that person vote to use our tax dollars on it.

Posted by: Mandy P. at November 04, 2009 06:26 PM (MK6Kx)

I disagree. It is more fiscally sound to abort a baby than to support it on welfare. It is more inhuman, but definitely cheaper. When we view people as things, it is an easy decision.

219 Geez, you mean we "maximalists" have been released from quarantine? What a relief. Feh.

220
Don't you solely-fiscal-cons realize that being okay with abortions is not conducive to a fiscally-prudent govt? You'll end up paying for a society that treats having abortions so whimsically.

Let me put it quite simply: when a society such as ours strays from the traditional values, e.g., traditional family, marriage, etc, government social welfare programs are created. The more we stray, the bigger the progams increase in size. This is obvious, no?

So it would behoove you, as a small-govt taxpaying conservative, to against anything, such as abortion, that would detrimentally affect the society and thus become a burden on society, for which the government would end up paying the bill.

221

Ya’ll keep arguing about the best way to put forth the anti-abortion on demand argument.   The same thing fits for the anti-gay marriage argument.

 

There is ONE argument that is the best and will always win the most converts. Simply follow the Constitution as written and as interpreted in plain English. Yes, it is that simple.

 

If you did that the entire abortion issue would be settled in a flash. It would be restored to the States for the people to decide instead of 5 liberals in black robes.

 

What you would wind up with is abortion on demand for any reason would be legal in CA where Ace lives and almost all abortions would be illegal in SC where I live.

 

If Ace felt strongly enough about being anti-abortion, he could move to SC (as I did from CA in 1977).   If I felt strongly enough about the ability of my wife to have an abortion, I could move back to CA. (Beside being able to buy liquor and beer in grocery stores any day of the week.)

 

You wouldn’t even have to mention abortion in the campaign. Only say “I believe in the Constitution the way it is written).

222 Here is my deal with legislating the pro-life agenda. If a girl gets pregnant and she goes to her doctor and says, "Doc, I'm knocked up and I want an abortion." and the MD says, "No problem." (This assumes they are of like mind on the morality of abortion) How do you prove that the girl had an abortion? She could have had a miscarriage, right? The girl is protected by the 5th and the MD is bound by doctor-patient privilege. How do you prosecute the crime?

223 The other point I would make for those saying "leave religion out of it"...by religion they mean Christianity, in most cases.  I would argue that you are dealing with liberalism that is a condition of the heart (ie soul) more than a political ideology.  And I assure you liberals are bringing their religion to the argument.  Humanism and statism are definitely driving the liberal agenda and are definitely stand-ins for a relationship with our creator. 

Yes, you can be moral and conservative and agnostic, but I would argue you can't be truly liberal and truly christian...they are mutually exclusive at their root. 

224

Also, yes I would strike down ALL federal drug laws and note that I feel strongly enough about that that when questioned by a federal judge for a drug trial I told her that.

 

As for the “responsibility” part, there would also be no federal welfare laws to support the drug addicts because the Constitution doesn’t support those either.

225

I should be able to smoke maximalists, pragmatists, and seperatists without fear of the law.

 

226 >>>Just so I'm clear, a Maximalist is another word for a Religious Conservative.

No, not really. A Maximalist might oppose any Republican who voted in favor of TARP, too.

227
I think I might have to separate the maximalists between the guys who will *risk* further Democratic power, and those who actively *seek* further Democratic power, on some twisted theory that the more apocalyptically bad it gets, the sooner the messiah comes.

Posted by: ace at November 04, 2009 04:32 PM (p+lWQ)

Didn't the messiah already arrive? You mean the media's been lying to me?

228 But they saying no abortions ever (except for this that or the other), you eliminate yourself from any further conversation on the real issues of the day.

Posted by: lorien1973 at November 04, 2009 06:31 PM (IhQuA)

Which is why I made the point that I would be fine with a pro-choice, pro-gay marriage candidate nationally so long as their treatment of those issues at the national level were federalist in nature. If a national candidate is personally in favor of those things, I don't care so long as they don't try to force it on the rest of us. Isn't that the entire argument against social-cons to begin with- that they are trying to legislate their brand of morality? Why does it seem that argument only ever goes one way?

Social issues were intended to be decided by the people of each state. I'm in Florida. Gay Marriage has already been pooh-poohed here and we have some serious restrictions (as many as are allowable as per the feds anyway) on abortion. If Roe were overturned, there would likely be a very strong movement to further limit abortion, although I'm not positive on an all-out ban. That works for the people here. In California, that's not likely to happen because the people there are overwhelmingly more socially liberal than the people in my home state.

And that's the whole point of the 10th Amendment. We're supposed to be able to decide what's best for ourselves and our communities based on our needs and beliefs; not have it dictated to us from our "betters" D.C.

229 Allowing primaries (for Senators) to run their course is a start. 

One might also make it clear that the amount of support for candidate gets is in part based upon how well their voting record correlates with the general party base.  If one needs additional support and doesn't have the record, look to your local base, or perhaps getting support transferred from other candidates who are more in line with the base.   In other words, the party central shouldn't be making these decisions.  If BobIsUs has a 90% GOP record, he gets 90% support to direct as he sees fit.  If SnowJob, with a 50% GOP record needs more support, let SnowJob go to the BobIsUs types for support in exchange for SnowJob concessions towards core principles.  This would help knit the winners together as a party, rather than create a situation where everyone is sucking off the teat of internal party politics that are out of touch with the base.   If BobIsUs doesn't want to share, oh well -- SnowJob can always look to other sources.  

Personally, I'd like to know when the RINO trophies who have been the source of these fiascos are going to be mounted over the entrance to the RNC headquarters.  Only after some heads roll and fresh 'conservative' blood is in place will I start to seriously consider supporting the RNC, NRSC and NRCC.... 

IMHO, if this were a typical professional football team, pretty much the entire coaching staff and starting team thinking about looking for another job, or minimally, warming the bench for a while and let someone else step forward.   

230 Any of you that have ideas of getting rid of welfare, good luck with that.  Open revolt in the inner cities.

The dems have done a good job of making a new slave class.  They want their free stuff dammit, and they have proven over and over that they will do anything to keep the money flowing.  Even if it means burning their own neighborhoods to the ground.

231 Some Dude...You're right, but as a society we wouldn't be condoning it, promoting it, or paying for it.  You could make the same argument about lots of activities, but the point is some things shouldn't have societal blessing.  And if doctors could lose their license for such illegal practices, they would certainly think twice.

232 >>>There is ONE argument that is the best and will always win the most converts. Simply follow the Constitution as written and as interpreted in plain English. Yes, it is that simple.

No, it's not. Because a lot of people either don't care what the constitution says, don't know what it says, or think it has been updated by "changing social norms."

The Constitution means precisely what the courts say it means and the public is willing to allow it to mean. *It is not a self-enforcing document.* For it to work as originally intended, people have to know what it says and believe what it says, which they currently do not.

Your proposal amounts to another restatement of "Sit down with people for six or eight hours of intense doctrinal discussion and you can persuade them."

Yes. Well, try it, let me know how it works out.

I am a pretty firm Constitutional plain-meaning-er (which is not an originalist per se, as Scalia points out, but close enough -- I am a Scaliaite, and a pretty strong one).

This once again comes down to: You and I agree about what the Constitution SHOULD mean but you are kind of just blowing off the important question of what it DOES mean, or is believed to mean, rather, given 60 years of hardcore liberal anti-consitutionalism.

233

No, not really. A Maximalist might oppose any Republican who voted in favor of TARP, too.

 

I may give them a one-time pass on TARP since that was the position of the Party and the opinion of many people who were not liberals that without it we would collapse.

 

But I would not go along with more than one TARP or TARP-like object. And I sure as hell would not go along with sweeping game changing bills like crap and tax and the health scam bill.

 

A yes vote on either one of those is RINO-dum. A yes vote on all three, as well as spendulous is pure liberal Democrat, regardless of letter designation.

234 Daddy Cornyn,

Nobody puts baby in a corner.

Tea Parties are the new Kos Kids....
Kos Kids rule the dems.

Cornyn has only criticized Limbaugh....Not one Czar not one advisor.....

Mr. H1B Visa dude should always vote and speak with DeMint...Why doesn't he?

You should have seen his ads for his Senate seat......new age with absolutely nothing said.
Vista staring A..Hat....didn't want to offend anyone....coward

235

Ya’ll keep arguing about the best way to put forth the anti-abortion on demand argument.   The same thing fits for the anti-gay marriage argument.

 

There is ONE argument that is the best and will always win the most converts. Simply follow the Constitution as written and as interpreted in plain English. Yes, it is that simple.

 

If you did that the entire abortion issue would be settled in a flash. It would be restored to the States for the people to decide instead of 5 liberals in black robes.

 

What you would wind up with is abortion on demand for any reason would be legal in CA where Ace lives and almost all abortions would be illegal in SC where I live.

 

If Ace felt strongly enough about being anti-abortion, he could move to SC (as I did from CA in 1977).   If I felt strongly enough about the ability of my wife to have an abortion, I could move back to CA. (Beside being able to buy liquor and beer in grocery stores any day of the week.)

 

You wouldn’t even have to mention abortion in the campaign. Only say “I believe in the Constitution the way it is written).

Posted by: Vic at November 04, 2009 06:38 PM (CDUiN)

This! ^^^^^^^^^

236 P.S.

There are over a dozen ACORN offices in Texas...

Hey Cornyn.....Do something.

237 >>>on't you solely-fiscal-cons realize that being okay with abortions is not conducive to a fiscally-prudent govt?

No. Or, let me put it this way: That is a second-order consideration at best and is not germane.

And this is part of the reality you face. I am sympathetic to the pro-life cause, though I don't subscribe to it. By which I mean: While liberals hate pro-lifers, I merely disagree. I understand their arguments because I've heard them, listened to them. Accept them as valid and sensible -- but still I disagree.

But you are having a tough time convincing your pro-choice GOP brothers. And we LIKE you.

Now go try this with people altogether unwilling to even hear you.

The "just convince people" thing is facile. So much is obscured by that word "just." Just? Just. Just flap your arms and fly to the moon.

On the pro-life side you speak with such conviction -- fine. Then you understand it would be colossally difficult to talk you out of your position, yes?

Do you not grasp that this is similar for most folks?

238 Bravo, Ace.  One of the reasons I enjoy reading you is that I've never doubted your ability and even desire to remain objective and intelligent in your analysis.

239 This once again comes down to: You and I agree about what the Constitution SHOULD mean but you are kind of just blowing off the important question of what it DOES mean, or is believed to mean, rather, given 60 years of hardcore liberal anti-consitutionalism.

Posted by: ace at November 04, 2009 06:48 PM (p+lWQ)

I think the point was that this should work for social issues in general. Obviously, the hard-core liberals who want abortion on demand up until birth and gay marriages galore are never going to go for it. But I honestly think most of the middle would be perfectly fine with a candidate who said (and followed through with it!) that the people of each state should decide what's best for them. That kind of message- that you know what's best for you and yours- resonates with most normal people.

240 >>>I may give them a one-time pass on TARP since that was the position of the Party and the opinion of many people who were not liberals that without it we would collapse.

I hope that's the position most take.

In a crisis, people tend to abandon ideology and try *anything.* Because it's a crisis, and they frankly have no idea how to deal with it.

But my point is that maximalist is not secret code for religious cons.

241

No, it's not. Because a lot of people either don't care what the constitution says, don't know what it says, or think it has been updated by "changing social norms.

 

Politicians who do not support the Constitution as written should either be impeached or driven out of office, and I don’t give a damn what the people think on that score.

 

They took an oath to support it.

 

If you don’t support the Constitution then it becomes a meaningless piece of 18^th century trash and the rule of law is supplanted by the rule of the most powerful. We all know where that leads.

 

I am a pretty firm Constitutional plain-meaning-er (which is not an originalist per se, as Scalia points out, but close enough -- I am a Scaliaite, and a pretty strong one).

Scalia is a “conservative activist”. I can remember when people used to say he was a textualist but he demonstrated his distain for the text with the medical marijuana case.

 

I think Thomas is now the best justice.

 

Gotta go back in 30 minutes.

 

 

242 Anyone who supports abortion rights, or fluoridation, needs to be stoned to death.

243 I keep hearing this "should" word.

I don't really disagree (well, kind of-- it's wholly undemocratic, what you suggest, and the constitution itself does not permit such nonsense, so I guess I do).

Anyway, I do disagree on that point.

But that's not the point.

The point is that this is politics, not a philosophical debate club, and "should" is a meaningless question without actual political power.

244 When conservatives take control of the Republican Party, Republicans win. When liberals take control of the Democratic Party, Democrats end up out of power for eight to 12 years.

-Ann Coulter 11-4-09

245

If that were true McLame would have been killed in New Hampshire.

McCain won the NH primary because he carried the votes of those who stridently opposed the Iraq war. It came up in the exit poll oddities afterwards.

246 237...Ace, I agree, abortion may be a bridge too far right now.  But, again, we must not give more ground on such issues and we should be finding new ways to move the statis quo to the right, if even in little increments.  The left certainly does this in every area and it's one way they win over the long haul. 

My main disagreement with "pragmatist" is that they often fall for the "this is the last thing we'll ask you to give in on" ploy from the left, only to be surprised when the left comes back for more before the ink even dries on the legislation. 

247

The point is that this is politics, not a philosophical debate club, and "should" is a meaningless question without actual political power.

What's your prescription for attaining that political power? I mean more specifically than just "no extremist hard liners". What concrete policy ideas should the party articulate?

248 actually I misread, vic. I assumed, wrongly, you said something about being arrested.

Dumb of me. Brain just read words that weren't there. I took "driven from office" to mean something else.

Impeachment is obviously in the consitiution. I don't know if i think I agree that crimes against the constitution should be grounds for impeachment (what happens when the Democrats run things?) but it's not "undemocratic" as I said.

Misread, sorry. It happens.

249

But you are having a tough time convincing your pro-choice GOP brothers. And we LIKE you.

Now go try this with people altogether unwilling to even hear you.

As I've pointed out before, abortion is a red herring. The GOP is not on the ropes because of abortion. It helps us not one whit to beat the abortion nag to death.

250 Impeachment is obviously in the constiution. I don't know if i think I agree that crimes against the constitution should be grounds for impeachment (what happens when the Democrats run things?) but it's not "undemocratic" as I said.

Sounds like a feature to me!

251 flenser,

What I keep putting to you is simple:

I AGREE with what you say about most issues.

Where we seem to part company is that I will caution "Yes, but we also need to be savvy and strategic about this, and not overreach where it will end up hurting us," and some of you keep dismissing that as some kind of college-boy pussy-mouth faggit-talk, as if it's corrupt or cowardly to ask, as a coach, "Wait, should we blitz on EVERY down? Or should we just do so when its in our best strategic interests to do so?"

I just feel like I keep arguing with people who are yelling BLITZ ON EVERY DOWN! NON BLITZING DEFENSE IS FOR ELITIST CHICKENSHIT FAGGITS! and I think all I'm doing is saying "Let's blitz where we can and let's not blitz where it seems we'd get burned by it."

I'm going to start calling yuu guys the Blitzers.

252

But my point is that maximalist is not secret code for religious cons.

Why use maximalist in the first place? Why adopt a term that cannot be quickly and easily identified?

It's this type of political game-speak that leaves normal people fighting to understand what language their own elected representatives are speaking.

Not hating, I'm just tired of the fucking buzzwords.

253 Coincidentally:

http://tinyurl.com/yer342y

Just saw this over at the HA headlines. Appropriate, considering our current discussion.

254

>>>No, it's not. Because a lot of people either don't care what the constitution says, don't know what it says, or think it has been updated by "changing social norms."

The Constitution means precisely what the courts say it means and the public is willing to allow it to mean. *It is not a self-enforcing document.* For it to work as originally intended, people have to know what it says and believe what it says, which they currently do not.

- Ace

 

That's only because those of us bound by sworn oath to prevent such a thing have been content to sit on our hands for far too long. It's a failure to honor an oath, a failure to adhere to duty, a failure to stand up and do whatever is required to honor that oath.

This sad state of affairs is our fault, both as standard issue citizens with an inherent duty to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America, and those of us who have taken the oath to do exactly that.

We are way past due on watering that tree Jefferson spoke of.

255 It wasn't abortion that defeated the Rs. They pretty much just give it lip service and everyone knows it. It was that fiscal conservative-ish moderates couldn't tell the Rs from the Ds anymore.

256

Bravo, Ace.  One of the reasons I enjoy reading you is that I've never doubted your ability and even desire to remain objective and intelligent in your analysis.

 

Tell me sir, what flavor is ace's ass?

 You don't get an A for comments.

257 The prevent defense is for squishes.

258 this is just a difference in personality type. I don't want to sit here talking about abstract doctrine and ideals all the doo-dah day. I don't want to talk about abstractions and hypotheticals like Jefferson's tree.

I want to talk about actually winning elections.

I am not an idealist and I am proud of that fact. I am a realist. Real action, real consequences.

I'm sorry, I just have no patience for what I find to be cant -- frilly poetical talk.

259

Where we seem to part company is that I will caution "Yes, but we also need to be savvy and strategic about this, and not overreach where it will end up hurting us," and some of you keep dismissing that as some kind of college-boy pussy-mouth faggit-talk

I don't know what sort of talk it is, because when I press you for specifics about what it means things get a little vague.

In general you seem concerned that the GOP is running too many theocons in the anti-religious north-east. Is that a fair description?

If so, I think it's clear that you are mistaken about the facts of the matter. The GOP is not running such people.

If not, I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at.

In your opinion, what is the ideal package of policy positions for a Republican in the north-east to have? Simply to get elected, regardless of "purity".

260

in other news Jane Orie Melvin won a seat to a 10 year term on Pennsylvania's supreme court. That gives us 5 conservatives and 4 liberals here.

 

261 >>>It was that fiscal conservative-ish moderates couldn't tell the Rs from the Ds anymore.

True, but then, I am hearing, from some -- not explicitly, but impliedly -- that the path to power lies in being more strident on the pro-life issue.

That's not the issue animating people. Economics is. So how abortion factors into this, really, as a hero or villain, is unclear to me.

Part of the rap on "moderates" (a term sometimes used for fiscal conservatives/social moderates) is that we're not really conservatives, but, in the current climate, we are really conservatives as far as the only issue that really matters.

So... you know. I agree. Abortion did not get us here. Neither, however, will abortion get us back.

262 You know how many pro-choice or I-don't-have-an-opinion-on-abortion Republican presidential nominees I've had a chance to vote for?

Since you were most likely too young to vote in 1973 when the Supreme Court imposed by judicial fiat a law upon the land which was never legislated by the people nor mentioned in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, you've only had a mere three chances; Reagan, Bush and Bush.

By the way Ace, not a single American enjoyed the right to vote for or against abortion so you are not alone.


Supreme Court; Darwinian apes adorned in glorious robes.  I sure am looking forward to the day Big Government surges the Kelo  upon the land by seizing property to serve Social Justice's Great Society.

How many chances will you have to vote against the Democrat President who will use Kelo to seize your private property whenever the need built Socially Liberal tax revenue?

263

I think we should elect Martin Sheen's character from the movie "The Dead Zone", he seemed like a good christian fellow

264

Whoa there!

Ace decided to kick the Hornet's nest for good measure or what!?

Commence the blood letting on all things that shall be named true Conservative positions.

Three legs of the stool, the dowels that bind them.

265

I want to talk about actually winning elections.

Well, I already gave you the surefire formula for that, if that's all you care about. Socially rather conservative, fiscally liberalish, somewhat isolationist. That's where the American people are at.

Are you really a winning for winnings sake type, or are there some specific goals you hope to attain after winning?

266 >>>In general you seem concerned that the GOP is running too many theocons in the anti-religious north-east. Is that a fair description?

No. My fear is that we will run the sort of candidate we always run up there -- fiscally to the right, socially in the middle -- and that there will pop up third party spoiler candidates and they will get money and just enough votes to stop those guys from winning.

And not just on the social issues, but on stuff like guns. Northeastern suburban areas are usually not hotbeds of 2nd Amendment purism.

>>>If so, I think it's clear that you are mistaken about the facts of the matter. The GOP is not running such people.

I agree, again. But will there be pressure to run such people?

BTW, I don't know if Hoffman is as as true-blue conservative as the story goes. An attack ad on him claimed he was for gay civil unions. Assuming that's true... well, this demonstrates that in some areas of the country the most conservative candidate possible might not be all that conservative.

267
I don't know, ace. Isn't it best to aim for (the, albeit, unattainable) perfection but understand and accept your fellow man's limitations? You see, I read that as one who wants to settle for mediocrity.

In other words, you build the best army you possibly can, but, as Donald Rumsfeld said, "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want." It sounds like you want to build a mediocre army from the get-go.

But okay, you want to get down to brass tacks? Let's talk about what we should do about Cristy. Let's take each race, on a case by case basis, and draw up the best strategy for victory.

268

True, but then, I am hearing, from some -- not explicitly, but impliedly -- that the path to power lies in being more strident on the pro-life issue.

That's not the issue animating people. Economics is.

No. The animating issue in getting the GOP out of power was not economics. Or abortion. It was the war. Why can't people admit this?

269

Abortion should be an unspoken part of the Republican platform. Something you talk about after you win.

I think it is fair to say most republicans are pro life, most republican politicians are pro life.  Why do we need to talk about it?  The independents are independents because they are not wedded to any ideology. They are just concerned about getting through the day. We need to win their votes. If we can do so by not only talking about abortion, then so be it. I would rather a pro life republican get elected and not talk about abortion on the campaign trail, that a pro life republican get defeated because that is all he talks about on the campaign trial.  It simply isn't a big issue to the swing voters. We the base should accept the fact that our politicians, for the most part, will be pro life but they can't make it the main plank of their campaign

270 >>>In your opinion, what is the ideal package of policy positions for a Republican in the north-east to have? Simply to get elected, regardless of "purity".

The question can't be answered because you can have rural areas in NH or upstate NY that would be quite a bit more open to social conservatism than Chris Shays' old New-York-City exurban district, which would be, as you can imagine, socially liberal.

The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Neither is conservatism.

271 Ace, 258, I think you make a valid point with the "blitzers" stuff.  But explain to me why Newt is on a bench with Nan?  Why is Grassley spending hundreds of hours "negotiating" on a bill that"s a disaster, 12 ways to Sunday?  Those are the things that infuriate me and open the door to use getting rolled in the name of bipartisanship.

Some things should not even be discussed.

272 The war and economics pushed the GOP out of power, flenser.

The Tea Party movement -- where all the energy is, and upon whose back we are urged to ride -- is not about the war. Or abortion. It's about economics.

NJ and VA were not won on the war. Or abortion. But economics.

273 >>> Why is Grassley spending hundreds of hours "negotiating" on a bill that"s a disaster, 12 ways to Sunday?

Why is Iran "negotiating" to give up its nukes for going on five years?

274

No. The animating issue in getting the GOP out of power was not economics. Or abortion. It was the war. Why can't people admit this?

its not entirely true.

The economy collapsed in october, the election was in november. Economics played a huge roll.  Just ask Obama, his party was reminded yesterday that they voted for him to fix the economic situation and they clearly don't think he has.

275

My fear is that we will run the sort of candidate we always run up there -- fiscally to the right, socially in the middle -- and that there will pop up third party spoiler candidates and they will get money and just enough votes to stop those guys from winning.

Do you spend a lot of time fearing that Yellowstone will explode and wipe us all out as well?

Those "fiscally to the right, socially in the middle" candidates which the GOP runs with, and loses with, do not lose because of some mythical spoiler candidates. They lose outright, fair and square.

276 BTW, I don't know if Hoffman is as as true-blue conservative as the story goes. An attack ad on him claimed he was for gay civil unions.

I haven't been following this thread, but I wanted to jump in here.  I think many (most?) true-blue conservatives (I'm not sure if you are using that interchangeably with social con; when I hear it I think of Ronald Reagan, who was not a strict social con) are not opposed to legalizing gay civil unions. 

Also, ace, since you're reading this thread.  The thread about Obama watching "his" movie last night may need updating (the last time I checked, anyway).  Newsbusters retracted that claim.  Fox misreported what Gibbs said. 

277 Yes that is all fine and dandy, but....

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THE JELLYFISH MENACE?

278 It's not about "mediocrity." It's about reality.

Tweets, fiscal conservative, pro-choice candidate running for Chris Shays' old, very gettable Connecticut suburban district: Do you send money to him?

If a pro-life third party candidate challenges, do you send money to HIM?

279

The economy collapsed in october, the election was in november

We lost Congress in 2006, not last November.

280 No. The animating issue in getting the GOP out of power was not economics. Or abortion. It was the war. Why can't people admit this?

People won't "admit this" cuz they don't believe it. Spending like Democrats and the culture of corruption meme pushed the repubs out. Spending like Democrats lost the base; the culture of corruption lost independents.

281
This morning I asked dananjcon to what degree Christie supported same-sex marriage. To me it matters how outspoken the (R)'s on social issues are as it serves as sort of gage for me to judge them.

I'm okay, to a point, to bend on a few social issues if the candidate merely expresses tolerance on a controversial social issue rather be a loud-and-proud supporter of the issue. And as a rule of thumb, I'm okay with any (R) that I agree with at least 85% of the time.

Incidentally, if I, a staunch conservative can bend a little, then I'm sure independents and moderates (who by definition are more yielding than I am) can overlook being anti-gay marriage and anti-abortion, and that's why I think these issues are not candidate-killers.

282

Do you spend a lot of time fearing that Yellowstone will explode and wipe us all out as well?

Honestly, who doesn't spend at least 5 minutes a day curled up in a ball crying in fear of a potential Caldera exploding. It would totally wipe out major republican strongholds in the midwest.

283 If the R's could dampen their socially conservative zeal, and highlight their fiscal conservatism,


Well if fiscal conservatives would make the same effort to get out the vote on Saturday mornings as the Social Conservative do then you would not need Social Conservative zeal.


Hate to break the news; fiscally conservative social liberals- libertarians very rarely help GOTV for Republican candidates.

Particularity the NE Elitist- they think they can buy elections which is why they are losers.

If you don't have people with the zeal to volunteer to knock on doors and make phone calls every Saturday morning for months on end, you will LOSE.



 

284

The economy collapsed in october, the election was in november

We lost Congress in 2006, not last November.

I will agree 2006 was about the war. But the A$$ raping in 2008 which gave them supermajorities in both houses and the presidency was about economics. The war in iraq in 2008 was a non issue.

285 >>>And if you don't think it's murder, try this definition on for size; The pre-meditated taking of an innocent, defensless human life.

Did u really think I hadn't heard that before?

I ask that because I keep being assured that we "just" need to convince people of this point.

As if people haven't heard this stuff for 35 years now.

286
For the record, I liked Chris Shays a lot. He was not a RINO; he had balls. Shays was socially liberal but not in a  'in-your-face-you-ignorant-redneck-biblethumper' way. On all other issues he wasn't afraid to speak up and square off against the Democrats.

287

The Tea Party movement -- where all the energy is, and upon whose back we are urged to ride -- is not about the war. Or abortion. It's about economics.

NJ and VA were not won on the war. Or abortion. But economics.

That's true. But given that, and given that the war was what pushed us out of power, why are you focusing like a laser beam on abortion?

I don't see anybody here objecting to the primary focus being on the economy at present. I don't see all these abortion uber alles people you seem so determined to rebuke.

288
Yeah, so I would never lump in Shays with, say, Lincoln Chaffee, who was a sackless RINO.

Chaffee, if you remember, was so ball-less he wrote-in George H W Bush in the  2004 election and made sure everyone knew he did it. What a big, selfish pussy Chaffee was.

289 >>>But given that, and given that the war was what pushed us out of power, why are you focusing like a laser beam on abortion?

I'm not. Brush that chip off your shoulder.

I am making a more general point about finding the right candidate for a district, rather than, as some seem to be arguing, figuring how to make districts right for a particular kind of candidate.

290

Sounds like people don't trust the elites, or the primary system as they are set up. It kind of sounds unfixable to me. Unless you have a major blood bath of the leadership of the RNC, it will probably not change.

Fire the leadership and a lot of maxies will come home for one more election cycle. One more Scuzzy, and the war will commence. To the knife.

291

No. My fear is that we will run the sort of candidate we always run up there -- fiscally to the right, socially in the middle.....

 

From what I have seen we have been running fiscally to the left and socially to the left in most of the “blue State” regions and still losing. The ones who are already there like the ME sisters are also upholding that tradition pretty well.

 

Hell, I would love to have a Republican in ME or MA who was for abortion on demand and supported gay marriage if they were pro second amendment, believed in low taxes, small government, and were hawkish on foreign policy. Hell, I would love to have that instead opf Lindsey Graham here in SC.

 

And Flenser

 

NH voting FOR McCain because they were anti-war has zero logic. McCain has always been a hawk, he was just against GWB and his method of running it.

 

They liked McCain because they saw a like personality, a blue state liberal.

292 273...Ace...different circumstances and proves my point.  Iran knows they'll get all they want either way so they "negotiate". The classic win-win for them. 

Grassley can't possibly get anything close to a conservative bill, and will be used to bludgeon us with bipartisanship, should he agree to anything. 

If that committee had come up with a $500B bill that did a few good things but that was still an overall train-wreck, Grassley would have signed on and gave the obligatory speech about "not a perfect bill, but blah blah blah" and we'd have all been flanged just the same.

Either he is much much much smarter and more principled than I give him credit for, or he was willing to get a bill created when clearly no bill any R should ever sign on to was ever going to come out of that committee.  The classic lose-lose. 

293

That's true. But given that, and given that the war was what pushed us out of power, why are you focusing like a laser beam on abortion?

i think the point is that there are parts of this country where we can't win with a pro life candidate. And the question is can you accept a pro choice fiscal con or is he a RINO that needs to be stoped? Also lets assume the guy won the primaries, not by a council of elders like scuttlebutt in NY.

294

also flenser

no politician runs soliciting the fact they will start wars. However politicians do often talk about abortion. I think that is why we are talking about it here. No GO candidate is going to have a platform of tax cuts, deficit reduction, and badass wars.

295 you missed my point. "negotiating" endlessly is just stalling for time and saying no in a passive-aggressive way that still looks like you're cooperating.

I don't believe that was what Grassley started out doing, but he ended up doing that.

He bought us August. Whether he meant to or not, it was his endless "negotiating" that got us the August recess and the Town Hall spectacles and the erosion of support for ObamaCare.

296

The 2008 election most certainly was not lost because of the war. The war was actually going good in 2008. Elections were lost in 2006 and 2008 because Republicans lost their small government credentials. The supported pork and free spending and they allowed the media to paint them as evil liars without any fight back.

 

When the housing boom collapsed they allowed the media to blame them and McCain stood idly by “acting presidential” and Mr. Nice guy while Obama and NBC ate his lunch.

 

Make no mistake, if Sarah Palin had not came on the stage he would have lost in just about every State. It would have been a 49 State blowout. He was the worse candidate I have seen since McGovern.

297

 

If you think running a third party candidate will help you aren't thinking right. Perot, a right leaning candidate, resulting in clinton winning. Nader a far left candidate resulted iin Bush winning. Third parties only benefit the people they are most ideologically opposed to.

298

McCain could be in some trouble with his primary. If he loses, the seat with go to a Dem in the Napolitano mode who will vote a Straight Barry agenda all the time. McCain is Trent Lott with a better military record.

Should I support McCain?

299

McCain could be in some trouble with his primary. If he loses, the seat with go to a Dem in the Napolitano mode who will vote a Straight Barry agenda all the time. McCain is Trent Lott with a better military record.

Should I support McCain?

It depends. Will Palin be his Vice-Senator?

300 >>>No GOP candidate is going to have a platform of tax cuts, deficit reduction, and badass wars.

Don't assume. When you assume, u get me up your ass.

301 i'm going to go shower. I want to be clean for the flame war tonight. see you round 10

302

I'm another guy who prefers to get to brass tacks (I think Tweet suggested this), and apply my preferences race by race - pretty sure I'm on record with this already but whatever.

Had I been a voter in NJ, likely would have voted for Lonegan in the primary.  Faced with yesterday's choice, Christie, not hard for me to do.

In Florida Rubio is my preference, or in my opinion the more conservative choice. If he loses to Charlie and I'm voting there in November, I vote for Charlie.

 

NY23 was a completely different situation to me, it was worth supporting Hoffman just to let the NRCC know not just no but hell no.

303

And while some consider Texas a fairly reliable conservative state, just an FYI we have small majorities of Republicans in the state house, and our Congressional delegation.  Oddly here was that for a long time you could be pretty damned conservative and be a Dem.  That's changed somewhat (as have some pols changed parties, like Ralph Hall).  But it ain't nowhere near 70-30 or anything like that, and good gawd has this state sent some knucklehead liberals to DC.

(sure am glad we finally iced that fucker Martin Frost though).

304

Perot was NOT “right leaning”. Hell, one of his platform ideas was a tax increase.

305
NY23 was a completely different situation to me...

Me too.

If there was a primary and Hoffman lost to Dodo, I would not vote for Dodo in the general. Well, I probably would because I wouldn't know what I now know.

However, Dodo breaks my 85% rule. So, I dunno. Maybe I'd stay home. Maybe I'd write-in Hoffman or Ronald Reagan. I dunno.

306 Let's call NY23 an anomaly. That means there will not be another like it, right? The Rs are not in a civil war yet, but the line has been drawn. The ball is in the RNC's court.

307 yeah, I agree with you there too. Couldn't vote for Scozzanutter. Stay home, roast another hobo. That and give that Janet Duprey a piece of my mind, boy howdy.

308
Holy shit I was just reading about Houston.

Three moonbats and a Republican illegal alien. The runoff is between a lesbian moonbat and a black racist moonbat.

309
But I don't think it's a good idea to spend the next ten months shitting all over Charlie Crist.

310

Houston is fucking insane.

Hell (mentioned a few days ago but bears repeating), the only reason Chet Edwards isn't my rep anymore is because we gerrymandered his ass out of my town and he still won the 11th.  He's a reliable vote for Dems on big items (except stimulus).  Could not drive a stake through his heart.

 

311 Situational again.  I shit all over Huckabee and McCain in the primaries cause it was a primary and they were makin a fuckin maniac outta me.  Charlie isn't, not to the degree that I feel like crapping on him.  Don't mean I can't find nice things to say about Rubio until the decision is made.

312

I don't think it's a good idea to spend the next ten months shitting all over Charlie Crist.

No, but it's fun.

313 High humidity causes insanity. Or only the insane will live there, dunno.

314 The runoff is between a lesbian moonbat and a black racist moonbat.

Wow, your parents are running against each other?

315

no politician runs soliciting the fact they will start wars. However politicians do often talk about abortion.

You ever hear of this guy called John McCain? Ring any bells? Ran for POTUS on the Republican ticket?

316
wow, i'm all the way up here in MA and even couldn't stand Martin Frost.

But even he's not least favorite Texan.

That dishonor goes to Bill Moyers.

And then LBJ.

And then LBJ's dog.

And then Paul Begala.

And then Martin Frost.

317 What's kind of funny about this discussion is that it pretends that the moderate/locally viable/RINO/pragmatic Republicans in question are fiscally conservative and socially moderate/liberal.

If that were only the case!  The ones I have in mind when I say RINO are all fiscally liberal.  Let's not pretend some of these jackasses are great on the econ but are socially liberal.

Hey, that's me and it's the libertarian position.  Guess what, there are about 200 of us total in the entire country.  Half write for Reason and the other half blog.  We couldn't swing a school board election.

No, the problem with some of these Republicans is that they bring nothing to the table.  They're not reliably fiscally conservative (to make me happy) and not reliably socially conservative (to make others in the coalition happy).

318

>>>But given that, and given that the war was what pushed us out of power, why are you focusing like a laser beam on abortion?

I'm not. Brush that chip off your shoulder.

If you would stop putting it there, I would not have to brush it off. You're the guy making abortion the centerpiece of his arguments, not me.

319

NH voting FOR McCain because they were anti-war has zero logic.

That may be. But that is what they did in any case. Take it up with the voters, not with me.

320 295...Ace, if that was his intention, then I stand corrected.  However, I'm not convinced and I'd say we got lucky in this instance.  In most cases we get abused and being "at the table" makes it worse. 

321
Wow, your parents are running against each other?

...the fuck?

322 Dude, I'm trying to start the flame war. Nothing personal, you were just open. And I thought you'd understand what I was doing.

_sigh

323
And I thought you'd understand what I was doing.


haha, you fell for the trap!

Don't you know who I am?

324
don't you know where you are?

325

Incidentally, if I, a staunch conservative can bend a little, then I'm sure independents and moderates (who by definition are more yielding than I am)

 

Zing!

At least I assume that was a "Zing". A lot of the moderates are far more stubborn about getting their own way than are the so-called "true conservatives".

326
plus they have that whole ill-informed ignorance thing going for them

327 haha, you fell for the trap!

No, no, don't try to be nice. I realize that I really truly over-estimated your ability to understand. Won't happen again.

328

Party machines used to knock heads together to get agreement that we hang together or separately.

Very disparate groups used to vote Dem 'cause that's where there interest was.

R's need to knock some heads together, get people who can talk the language of conservatism and moderation

Incrementalism (say toward single-payer) has always been a hallmark of the Left, slicing the pastrami.

We have to do the same....the country is in a deep hole....it will get deeper if we do not cooperate with one another.

329 A majority in the House gets to conduct investigations of the president and issue subpoenas on a party line vote.

Sorry Ace, your guys don't have the stones to investigate the socialists; but, some of them would throw in with the socialists to investigate conservatives.

At some point we do have to unite, because we do not have more than 55% of the public with us, and that's under best circumstances.

Oh we can unite, alright--behind conservative candidates.  For the last decade or so, "unity" has meant holding your nose and voting for big government apologists, crooks and rank incompetents.  That "unity" has expired.

330 Without Hoffman, there wasn't any way for principled Republicans to win.  The fact that Dede Scozzafaffa endorsed the Democrat means that even if she'd stayed in the race, and Hoffman stayed out, and she'd won, Obama would still have a guaranteed vote in the House.   Democrat or Republican wouldn't have made any difference.  At least now, the RINOs are aware that we're mad and they don't necesarily have our support. 

331

Elections were lost in 2006 and 2008 because Republicans lost their small government credentials.

Maybe in your part of the world this was the case. In the north-east, the war was a huge anchor around Republican necks. It was an absolute killer. Every fucking Dem campaign ad linked the Republican Congressman, Assemblyman, or Town Dogcatcher to Bush and the Iraq war, over and over and over and ....

332

And not just the north-east. I was in Orlando FL a month before the 2008 elections. I caught some of the local TV. A Dem wannabe Congressman was blasting his opponent by linking him to Bush and the Iraq war.

You may have heard of him - today he is Rep Alan Grayson.

333 Ace, sir, and with all due respect, you seem to be displaying the boldness of a moderate.

334

The runoff is between a lesbian moonbat and a black racist moonbat. Subsequently, they mated.

Today their spawn is known as Rep Alan Grayson.

 

335

Let me add: the Left has always been animated around a vision of progress, truly a vision...to improve the lives of citizens thru government services, regulation and enforcement of fairness

well, i'm in favor of motherhood too (actually, they often are not).  So we have a "counter-intuitive" vision of freedom, that fairness and prosperity are maximized by freedom.  I say "counter-intuitive" because the decades long propagandizing of the press (et al.) have had their effects.....and also because the USSR is no longer there to see plain as day....we no longer have the iconography (no one has heard of North Korea...China is our friend, etc.)

And certainly no one knows the history that we were the answer to centuries of kingdoms, feudal lords, etc.  Freedom is the ultimate progressive idea.

Now, I would think that most R's would undersand this.  But they are afraid.  Even in NY-23, I bet that the R brain trust thought that in this Age of Obama, Debe was as good as they could get, maybe they understood that Pelosi was going to send $$$$$ and operatives to flood their district.

Maybe they thought that she was their best shot...realizing too late that the C's were on the ascendant.  Ok, they weren't agile.

But, whatever, the answer is not anger (although I am angry), the answer is education....the power of persuasion

336 Hah. That's a pretty good list of Texas assholes Tweets.

337 285 >>>And if you don't think it's murder, try this definition on for size; The pre-meditated taking of an innocent, defensless human life.

"Did u really think I hadn't heard that before?

I ask that because I keep being assured that we "just" need to convince people of this point.

As if people haven't heard this stuff for 35 years now."

And yet the pro-abortion crowd goes ballistic every time someone puts photographic evidence of the results of the "procedure" out in public view, don't they?  They drive past dead animals on the roadside every day -- why get so upset over a picture of a "lump of tissue"?

The way I see it, the fiscal con/social liberal is like the guy who has to get home to the wife and kids about the time he's due to pick up the tab for the next round of drinks.  No problem enjoying the cameraderie -- he just doesn't want to give anybody else a free drink out of his own pocket.

If you're pro-choice, you're not conservative.  The right to life is the fundamental human right, and the basis for all of the other human rights.  If you're dead, no other rights matter for you. 

338 Ace, you are talking about tactics when the real argument is over what the party stands for. Is it Buckley Republicanism, which is for individual liberty, free markets, and limited government, or is it Rockefeller Republicanism, which is is for active government, elitism, and the protection of its own status in society?

For me, this comes down to first principles. I stand with those who believe that private property rights are the foundation of Western civilization: I own my self, thus I own my labor, thus I own the fruits of my labor. Because I own these things I have full control over them and may do as I wish with them, so long as I do not infringe upon the rights of another. These are natural rights and cannot be taken from me by any individual. My rights may be infringed upon by the state, but only when I have infringed upon the rights of another and only through due process. The primary functions of government are the protection of individual rights and the neutral arbitration of disputes. Other functions have been assigned over the years, but these are not primary functions and thus are not essential for government and should be eliminated if they are counterproductive. Government activities that grossly violate private property rights are dangerous to Western civilization and must be destroyed.

Find me Republican candidates who demonstrate these first principles in their voting patterns and I will support them. I may disagree with them on social issues, but at least I know that our disagreements results from different interpretations on the matter of personal liberty.

I will not support a Rockefeller Republican because their goals are opposite to mine.

339 The GOP has too many folks running it that want to fill their spreadsheets with Rs no matter what.

The GOP is the problem. Conservatives are not asking too much of it.

Conservatives are not stupid. They know it is impossible to fill the House and Senate with 535 Conservatives or anything close.

They are just tired of a bunch of GOP Big Shots shoving RINOs down our throats and telling us to swallow and smile.

Conservatives and Right-leaning moderates working together in a new GOP can win just as many seats as the present GOP has now, plus many more.

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342 Woo fucking hoo! This makes NY-23 a victory.

If we can get the NRCC to do the same, we are well on our way to a much better Republican Party.

Hey Charlie Crist? Suck this!

343 #333 - rae4palin

Ace, sir, and with all due respect, you seem to be displaying the boldness of a moderate.

I believe that is the nice way of saying "Ace is a coward".

After hearing him bitch about not getting to vote for a Republican candidate who supports baby-murder, it's pretty obvious Ace doesn't speak for authentic conservativism in any case.

Hey Ace, it's hard to have life and liberty when your own worthless slut of a mother kills you. Keep fucking that RINO.

344

I am mostly a lurker and when I do comment, it is out of frustration, not the usual humor that I attribute to this site.

So, now, I comment.

Ace, you are wrong about your maximalist theory.

If I grant that I completely grant and agree with your 55% theory, please allow me to disagree with how you get there.

In my home and amongst my acquaintances, people mostly trust my opinion, because I make an effort to be well informed.  I am a marine biologist that is a global warming skeptic, which, just for starters, makes most people uncomfortable.  Even people that have known me for decades and trust me with their most personal or environmental conversations, consider me suspect, once they know me to be politically conservative.

People that will trust me with millions of dollars of liability professionaly and know me to be reliably, defensibly, accurate in my positions, shy away from my positions if they seem to support a political position that they are not informed to agree with.

My girlfriend, whom I love dearly and have asked to marry me, twice, will trust me with her children and now, as of this moment, knows her youngest is in the tub, where he likes to fall asleep.  That is an extraordinary level of trust, for her, for anyone.  But she does not ascribe to my political conservatism/

There is no loving, reasoned argument I can pose, as she is not a fan of numbers.

There is no political argument I could ever make, that may incline the woman I love to vote for a candidate that did not vocally support abortion.  Period.  It is not my issue; it is hers.  You wanna argue with her?  You wanna talk maximalism on an issue?

I'm not a maximalist.  However, I am convinced of the correctness of my positions.  Not because they are mine, but because I have evaluated them for myself and they have stood the test of time.

So there's your electorate.  My girlfriend, whom I love, will not, would  never support a pro-life candidate, even though she will trust me with her kids in the bathtub, because of things in her past that I may never understand.

There is, literally, nobody more personally experienced in hands-on environmental clean-up work, than me, to the best of my knowledge. With the exception of a couple of well known projects, I have personally worked on some of the most complicated environmental messes in history, actually, in the suit, under the ground, in the water.

However, politically, I am a eunuch.

Somebody like me has no political voice, because more people are less well informed.  I suppose I am a maximalist.  I don't have an abortion litmus test on my politics, though I choose to have one in my personal life.  However, I do have unbending opinions about history, math, and chemistry.

I can stand up.  I can take all of the ill-informed abuse thrown at me by environmental radicals.  I can take my beloved girlfriend's sometimes scorn, when she thinks I am undermining her bulwark against protecting abortion.

What I cannot take is people like Ace, shooting me in the back, telling me I have to compromise central values to gain 55%.  Nothing about what I do or am allows me to compromise what I genuinely beleive, to gain a percentage.  As best I can, it is my duty to convince other people that my position has the most merit.

The people around you must trust that you are giving your most reasoned, well-informed opinions, even if they are contrary to the other 50 or more percent.  I am used to having more than 50 percent of the people disagree with me.  That's not why people ask me my opinion.  My job is to encourage people that disagree with me to at least consider my position.

The 55% argument is politically astute, but it ignores principle.  Al Gore got the answers right, in college, as a C student, but a C student is wrong, roughly 30% of the time.  I'm never allowed to be wrong, in the private enterprise world.  If I were ever wrong on my best advice given to a client, I could never get work again.

Surely, my little environmental efforts demand the same level of thought as the fate of the country.  There is no compromise with wrong.

I understand, perfectly, the concept of what may be politically achievable, but you can achieve nothing, politically, by compromising with wrong, and pretending that this is just a place-holder, until you stake your real position.

Nor can you achieve anything, politcally, in the long run, with any other ephemeral position.  Ace, you want your 55%?  Then sell your line to teenagers, this week.

They'll buy it, this week.  Myself?  I will push for principles and stand up for them.

345 Umm... yeah. That was our plan. Absolutely.

346 This just in: Obama will run for 2012 as a Republican.  He will flaunt his bipartisanship, as demonstrated by his ability to work with Democrats, even the most strident leftists.  The Republican Committee will immediately transfer their assets to his campaign.

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348

After hearing him bitch about not getting to vote for a Republican candidate who supports baby-murder, it's pretty obvious Ace doesn't speak for authentic conservativism in any case.

Go back to lurking, dickbeath.

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أغنية وين احب الليله بدون موسيقى ، كلمات أغنية وين احب الليله ، أغاني محمد عبده 2010
أغنية تقوى الهجر بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية تقوى الهجر بدون موسيقى
زفة نور الشمس ، زفة أغنية نور الشمس ، زفات للعرايس
أغنية مشتاق قالولي بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية مشتاق قالولي بدون موسيقى ، أغاني بدون موسيقى
زفة لا تقولون ، زفة أغنية لا تقولون ، زفات أغاني محمد عبده ، زفات محمد عبده
أغاني ماجد مهندس بدون موسيقى أغنية ست الحبايب بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية ست الحبايب بدون موسيقى
أغاني ماجد مهندس أغنية فوق الشوق بدون موسيقى تحميل أغنية فوق الشوق بدون موسيقى
اغنية اكثر من اول بدون موسيقى اغنية احلام بدون موسيقى اغنية اكثر من اول
أغنية حبيبي اسف ازعجتك بدون موسيقى ، أغاني خالد عبدالرحمن بدون موسيقى
زفة قمر واحلى زفات روعه زفة بصوت عيسى الماجد زفه باسم ساره‏
زفة الله ياحلوه ، زفة الأميره ساره ، زفات إسلاميه ، زفة الله ياحلوه بدون موسيقى
اغنية دلوعتي بدون موسيقى زفة اغنية دلوعتي بدون موسيقى اغنية الفنان راشد الماجد زفه حلوه
أغنية روح وروح بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية روح وروح بدون موسيقى ، أغاني أصاله بدون موسيقى
اغنية خاينه بصوت هند البلوشي بدون موسيقى
زغاريد زغروطه زغروته زغروته طويله زغروته قصيره
اغنية جيبه يعني اجيبه لو كان تحت الحراسه بدون موسيقى
أغنية أنا حبيبي بدون موسيقى ، أغاني فارس مهدي بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية أنا حبيبي بدون موسيقى
اغنية لايق عليك الورد زفة لايق عليك الورد اغنية لايق عليك الورد بدون موسيقى زفة لايق عليك الورد للعرايس
ويلاه ضاق الصدر وما ذكر يسأل علي بدون موسيقى
أغنية جنه جنه بدون موسيقى ، كلمات أغنية جنه جنه ، تحميل أغنية جنه جنه بدون موسيقى
زفات أغاني محمد عبده 2009 ، زفة عذبة الأطباع ، زفات محمد عبده ، زفة عذبة الاطباع 2009
زفة أموت بحبك ، أغنية أموت بحبك بدون موسيقى ، زفات عبدالمجيد عبدالله 2009 ، زفات أغاني عبدالمجيد عبدالله 2009 ، زفة أغنية أموت بحبك 2009‏
أغنية تعب قلبي بدون موسيقى ، أغاني نوال الكويتي بدون موسيقى ، كلمات أغنية تعب قلبي
اغاني الجسمي بدون موسيقى ، اغنية فقدك بدون موسيقى ، اغاني الجسمي فقدك بدون موسيقى
اغنية اجيك يسلم راسك وشلون ماجيك بدون موسيقى
القوس قوسك والسهام سهامك بصوت طقاقه بدون موسيقى اغنيه جديده اغنيه 2009
اغنية صدفه ليارا بدون موسيقى اغنية صدفه ومن بين كل الناس حبيتك بالدف
أغاني أحلام بدون موسيقى ، أغاني البومات أحلام ، أغاني احلام بدون موسيقى 2009 ، أغاني بدون موسيقى
أغنية يالي على البال بصوت موضي ، زفة ياللي على البال بدون موسيقى ، أغاني موضي الشمري بدون موسيقى
اغنية انت طيب بدون موسيقى اغنية نوال بدون موسيقى اغنية انت طيب اغنية نوال الكويتيه انت طيب‏
أغنية يعجبني الزعل بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية يعجبني الزعل بدون موسيقى ، أغاني نوال الكويتيه بدون موسيقى
أغنية بين أيدي بدون موسيقى ، أغنية بين ايديا بدون موسيقى ، أغاني ماجد مهندس بدون موسيقى
أغنية ليلي الم بدون موسيقى ، أغنية ليلي ألم بدون موسيقى
زفة احلى عروس راشد الماجد بدون موسيقى
أغنية قول أمين بدون موسيقى ، زفة قول امين بدون موسيقى ، زفات عبدالمجيد عبدالله ، زفة قول امين
أغنية ياقلبي بدون موسيقى تحميل أغنية ياقلبي بدون موسيقى أغاني ماجد مهندس بدون موسيقى
اغنيه مرتاح ولا يتصنع قلبك الراحه بدون موسيقى ، تحميل اغنيه مرتاح ولا يتصنع قلبك الراحه بدون موسيقى ، أغاني أحلام 2009
زفة أحلى من القمر ، زفة أغنية أحلى من القمر ، زفة أغاني راشد الفارس ، زفات أغاني راشد الفارس
أغنية انا وخلي بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية انا وخلي بدون موسيقى
أغنية الا يامطوله صبري بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية الا يامطوله صبري بدون موسيقى
أغنية لو يقولون انتي حلوه بدون موسيقى ، كلمات أغنية إنتي حلوه ، أغاني رابح صقر بدون موسيقى
أغنية أجمل إنسانه ، أغنية أجمل إنسانه بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية أجمل إنسانه بدون موسيقى
زفة السندريلا ، زفة أغنية السندريلا ، زفات إسلاميه ، زفات عرايس
أغنية ناويلك على نيه ، زفات أحلام ، زفات أغاني أحلام بدون موسيقى ، زفات أفراح
أغنية هلي لا تحرموني منه بدون موسيقى ، أغاني راشد الماجد 2009 بدون موسيقى ، أغنية هلي لا تحرموني منه
أغنية أبي حبك معي يكبر بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية أبي حبك معي يكبر بدون موسيقى ، أغاني بدون موسيقى 2009
أغنية انت منت انسان أكثر بدون موسيقى ، تحميل انت منت انسان أكثر بدون موسيقى ، أغاني عبدالمجيد بدون موسيقى
اغنية العنب العنب أغاني عبير التركي أغنية العنب بصوت عبير التركي أغاني طقاقات
أغنية تحس فيني بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية تحس فيني بدون موسيقى ، أغاني أحلام بدون موسيقى ، أغنية تحس فيني أحلام بدون موسيقى‏
أغاني أحلام بدون موسيقى ، أغاني البومات أحلام ، أغاني احلام بدون موسيقى 2009 ، أغاني بدون موسيقى
أغنية والله واحشني موت بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية والله واحشني موت بدون موسيقى ، أغاني ماجد مهندس بدون موسيقى
زفة دقو المزاهر، زفات مصريه ، زفة أغنية دقو المزاهر ، زفات أغاني مصريه
اغنية غنو لحبيبي بدون موسيقى اغنية عبد المجيد عبدالله بدون موسيقى اغنية غنو لحبيبي
أغنية اليوم طالع قمر ، زفة اليوم طالع قمر ، زفات عبدالمجيد عبدالله ، زفة اليوم طالع قمر بدون موسيقى ، زفات عبدالمجيد عبدالله بدون موسيقى‏
أغنية نور عيني بدون موسيقى أغنية حبنا يا نور عيني لا يضيع أغاني راشد الماجد بدون موسيقى
زفات طقاقات بدون موسيقى 2009 ، زفات طق بدون موسيقى 2009 ، تحميل طقاقات 2009 ، تحميل طقاقات بدون موسيقى 2009‏
زفات جديده زفه بصوت روعه زفه كامله زفات 2009‏
زفات أغاني راشد الماجد زفات بالاسماء زفات أغاني راشد الماجد بالاسماء زفات راشد 2009
أغنية روح وروح بدون موسيقى ، أغاني أصاله بدون موسيقى ، أغنية روح وروح ، أغاني بدون موسيقى
كلمات اغاني البوم هيفاء وهبي الجديد بابا فين 2010 كلمات اغاني هيفاء وهبي الجديده بابا فين ولما تغيب الشمس
أغنية الحكايه بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية الحكايه بدون موسيقى
اغنية إندماج الارواح بدون موسيقى ، كلمات أغنية إندماج الارواح ، أغنية إندماج الارواح ، أغاني فارس بدون موسيقى
أغنية عزاه بدون موسيقى تحميل أغنية عزاه بدون موسيقى تحميل أغاني راشد الفارس بدون موسيقى
اغنية عسى دايم نكون احباب اغنية عبد المجيد عبد الله اغنيه بدون موسيقى
اغنية رقصهم وشعللهم ، اغنية رقصهم وشعللهم بدون موسيقى ، رقصهم وشعللهم على المسرح شويه شويه
اغنية من يقول اني لغيرك اغنية راشد الماجد اغنيه بدون موسيقى اغنيه حلوه
أغنية لا تخاف من الزمان بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية لا تخاف من الزمان ، أغاني أصاله بدون موسيقى
اغنية رنيت لك رنه بدون موسيقى ، تنزيل اغنية رنيت لك رنه بدون موسيقى ، اغنيه رنيت لك رنه
اغنية في منتهى الرقه بدون موسيقى ,كلمات اغنية في منتهى الرقه بدون موسيقى ,اغنية رابح صقر بمنتهى الرقه بدون موسيقى
اغنية والله احبك بدون موسيقى ,كلمات اغنية والله احبك ,اغنية والله احبك بصوت اشواق ,اغنية والله احبك بدون موسيقى ,اغنية الفنان يوسف العماني والله احبك
أغنية صدفه بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية صدفه بدون موسيقى ، أغاني يارا بدون موسيقى‏
زفة احلى نهار ، زفة خطوة خجل ، زفات راشد الماجد 2009 زفة أغنية أحلى نهار ، زفة أغنية خطوة خجل
أغنية الأماكن بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية الأماكن بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغاني محمد عبده بدون موسيقى‏
أغاني محمد عبده بدون موسيقى ، أغنية إختلفنا بدون موسيقى ، كلمات أغنية إختلفنا
زفات حسين الجسمي زفات الجسمي زفات حسين الجسمي بدون موسيقى
زفة رشو الورود ، زفات سوريه ، زفات أغاني سوريا ، زفة أغنية رشو الورود
أغنية تكفون بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية تكفون بدون موسيقى أغاني بدون موسيقى‏
أغنية خاينه وما تنصفي بدون موسيقى تحميل اغنية خاينه وما تنصفي أغاني مغربيه بدون موسيقى
أغنية الحب خالد بدون موسيقى ، أغاني بدون موسيقى ، أغنية الحب خالد
اغنية انكسرت الشيشه بدون موسيقى ، انكسرت الشيشه بدون موسيقى ، انكسرت الشيشه
اغنية اميرة الورد بدون موسيقى زفة اميرة الورد بدون موسيقى اغنية الفنان محمد عبده زفه رائعه
اغنية قوم ودرج لي وارقص قدامي بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية قوم ودرج لي وارقص قدامي بدون موسيقى ، أغاني الطقاقه العنود بدن موسيقى‏
أغاني اليازيه محمد بدون موسيقى ، أغنية برق لمع بدون موسيقى ، أغنية متغير علي بدون موسيقى ، أغنية تهددني بدون موسيقى
أغنية انا صاحي لهم بدون موسيقى ، كلمات أغنية أنا صاحي لهم ، أغاني راشد الماجد صوتيه بدون موسيقى
أغنية يلوموني حبيبي فيك بدون موسيقى أغاني راشد الماجد بدون موسيقى2009 البوم نور عيني بدون موسيقى أغاني بدون موسيقى‏
زفات العروس 2009 ، زفات للعروس 2009 ، زفات خليجية للعروس 2009 ، زفة عروس 2009
أغنية طالعه من بيت أبوها بدون موسيقى ، أغنية طالعه من بيت ابوها بصوت ماجد مهندس ، أغاني بدون موسيقى
أغنية معجبه بدون موسيقى ، أغاني بدون موسيقى ، أغنية معجبه 2009 بدون موسيقى
اغنية وش جاه بدون موسيقى ، تحميل اغنية وش جاه بدون موسيقى ، اغاني البوم نور عيني بدون موسيقى
زفة غنت الاشعار زفات 2009 زفه كامله زفه جديده
أغنية عشان الحب بدون موسيقى ، كلمات أغنية عشان الحب ، تحميل أغنية عشان الحب ، اغاني راشد الماجد بدون موسيقى
أغاني صوتيه بدون موسيقى ، أغنية مشكلتي اهواه بدون موسيقى ، أغاني زيد الزايد بدون موسيقى
زفات عرائس زفة أميرة الورد تحميل زفة أميرة الورد تحميل زفات إسلاميه
زفه شعريه زفه بصوت روعه زفات شعريه زفه بصوت عبدالله السعدي
زفات كويتيه ، زفات مصريه ، زفات هنديه ، زفات اسلاميه ، زفات تركيه ، زفات انجليزيه ، زفات بحرينيه ، زفات سعوديه
زفة اقبلت احلى البنات حسين الجسمي زفه روعه
أغنية لقيت غيرك بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية لقيت غيرك ، أغاني تامر حسني بدون موسيقى ، أغاني بدون موسيقى
أغنية سواها قلبي يا حبيبي وحبك بدون موسيقى ، تحميل اغنية سواها قلبي يا حبيبي وحبك ، اغاني بدون موسيقى
زفه البدر لراشد الماجد بدون موسيقى‏
مؤثرات صوتيه ، زغاريط ، زغاريط افراح ، زغاريط للزفات ، زغاريط بدون موسيقى ، زغرطه
أغاني البوم روح روحي بدون موسيقى ، أغنية خلص حنانك بدون موسيقى ، أغاني عبدالمجيد عبدالله بدون موسيقى
اغنية الحب خالد بدون موسيقى ,اغنية راشد الماجد بدون موسيقى ,اغنيه الحب خالد بدون موسيقى
زفات حسين الجسمي ، زفات أغاني حسين الجسمي ، زفة حلوة واموره للجسمي ، زفات أغاني حسين الجسمي بدون موسيقى
اغنية مليون خاطر بدون موسيقى ,كلمات اغنية مليون خاطر ,اغنية عبد المجيد عبد الله مليون خاطر , تحميل اغنية مليون خاطر بدون موسيقى‏
أغنية القوس قوسك بدون موسيقى تحميل أغنية القوس قوسك بدون موسيقى أغاني عبدالمجيد عبدالله بدون موسيقى
اغنية ياحبني لك بدون موسيقى ,كلمات اغنية ياحبني لك بدون موسيقى ,اغنية ماجد المهندس ياحبني لك بدون موسيقى ,تحميل اغنية ياحبني لك بدون موسيقى
أغنية يغار قلبي بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية يغار قلبي بدون موسيقى ، أغاني راشد الماجد بدون موسيقى ، أغنية يغار قلبي راشد الماجد‏
أغنية الدنيا حلوه بدون موسيقى ، أغاني نانسي عجرم بدون موسيقى ، كلمات أغنية نانسي عجرم
أغاني بدون موسيقى تحميل اغنيه يعشقني بدون موسيقى اغنيه يعشقني
أغاني الطقاقه العنود ، أغاني زواج بدون موسيقى ، أغاني الطقاقه العنود بدون موسيقى ، اغاني أعراس بدون موسيقى‏
اغنية مابنكسر صابر بدون موسيقى ، أغنية مابنكسر صابر بصوت ماجد بدون موسيقى ، مابنكسر صابر بدون موسيقى
اغنية ياحظ عينك بدون موسيقى ، كلمات اغنية ياحظ عينك ، أغاني عبدالمجيد عبدالله بدون موسيقى
اغاني بدون موسيقه اغنية المهلي مايولي اغاني محمد الزيلعي اغنيه بدون مسيقى
أغنية تلفت الناس لامريت بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية تلفت الناس لامريت بدون موسيقى
زفة خذها امانه ، أغنية خذها أمانه بدون موسيقى ، زفات بدون موسيقى ، زفة خذها أمانه بدون موسيقى
أغنية الي لقى احبابه بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية الي لقى احبابه بدون موسيقى
أغنية الريش بدون موسيقى ، اغاني راشد الماجد 2009 بدون موسيقى ، أغاني البوم نور عيني بدون موسيقى
اكبر مجموعة اغاني بدون موسيقى 2009 ، اغاني بدون موسيقى لجميع الفنانين ، اغاني بدون موسيقى للتحميل
اغنية اليوم طالع قمر اغنيه بدون موسيقى اغنيه حلوه
أغنية على كثر السنين بدون موسيقى أغاني راشد الماجد 2009 بدون موسيقى تحميل أغنية على كثر السنين
اغنية والله واحشني زمانك بدون موسيقى ، كلمات اغنية والله واحشني زمانك ، والله واحشني زمانك بدون موسيقى‏
أغاني نوال الكويتيه بدون موسيقى أغنية من البدايه بدون موسيقى ، أغنية ليش أزعل عليك بدون موسيقى ، أغنية سامحتك بدون موسيقى
زفة ممشاها حرير ، زفة أغنية ممشاها حرير ، زفات أغاني حسين الجسمي 2009 ، زفات الجسمي للعرايس
زفه روعه زفات جديده زفه بصوت سلوم السلوم
أغنية ساعات بدون موسيقى ، تحميل أغنية ساعات بدون موسيقى ، أغاني راشد الماجد بدون موسيقى
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البوم مني امرشا سنة اولي حب 2010 , اغنية اي شوق , اغنية بدالك الف , اغنية تبي تقنعني , اغنية حلم او علم

اغنية الموعد الضايع ، كلمات اغنية الموعد الضايع ، تحميل اغنية الموعد الضايع ، الموعد الضايع راشد الماجد ويارا ، اغنية الموعد الضايع راشد الماجد ويارا

اغنية غرقان لراشدالماجد،اغنية راشدالماجدوحسين الجسمي،اغنية غرقان،غرقان2010

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