1

Most corrupt administration ever.

2 I suppose we should just be glad it wasn't a $1.10 on the dollar.

3 I just love the new transparency this administration had brought us!  Mmm mmm mmm.

4

Hey I got a good deal.  We offered .40 and the banks wanted $1.60.  I got them to split the difference. 

5 blame Bush? yeah right. like Bush was the mastermind behind all this crap.

6 Wasn't Bush the dumbest boob on the planet? Boy, that "idiot" sure turned out to be an evil genius!

7 Thank God our betters in Washington have put an end to those risky loans at the heart of the banking crisis.

8

uh hmm, bonuses and all.

i myself am really enjoying fun-unemployedment.

9 Can't wait for all those cash for clunker defaults .

10 5 blame Bush? yeah right. like Bush was the mastermind behind all this crap.

Posted by: exceller at October 27, 2009 05:42 PM (jx2Td)

I have no problem blaming Bush for this one, as it's just one more reason why his support evaporated. Obama just promoted him further.

 

 

11 Sweetheart deals? Corruption? Never heard of it.

12 I'm kinda leaning towards no government at this point. D? R? Does it really matter?

C'mon, chaos! At least that would be more reliable and fair rather than a concerted effort to screw the little guy.

13 So this counts as a Blame Bush.

Does it?

POTUS has no power to make or affect any appointments at a regional branch of the Fed.  POTUS can't stop them or make them.

14 Just wait until all the malls start folding, commercial real estate is about to destroy the libs big time.

15

POTUS has no power to make or affect any appointments at a regional branch of the Fed.  POTUS can't stop them or make them

Yet.

I bet the coming "crisis" will get that changed.

More concentration of power is a good thing, right?

16 No wonder they are fighting tooth and nail to avoid disclosing what happened to the money.  It isn't for bank solvency like they claim, its for Democrat solvency.

17

You'd think with a cranium that large there would be something in it other than vanilla pudding.

 

18

When Repubs take the WH in 2012 will they prosecute the Dems of this admin?

 

Of course not.

 

In any case time to leave for tonight.

19 hmmm... would bush have no power to put stipulations on how tarp was spent? None?

The fed guys I guess are independent, right? Okay. But still, strings can be put on the money.

20

I would like to once again thank the financial genius sector of the economy for providing the communists the gun with which to blow a hole in the cranium of capitalism.

 

Single malt, bartender and keep them coming.  Just wave an ice cube across the top, please.

21 Sounds like the banks got a ROBUST deal.

22 There should have been a massive bloody beatdown last October and none of this should ever have happened.  Who knows?  The markets might have hit a quick, hard bottom and corrected themselves by now.  Of course, all the wrong people would have suffered in that case.  /spits

23 #14, can you elaborate on that?  Including, why would a comm. mortage crisis be delayed so long, especially if the worst part of the downturn is over

(I assume the comm. mortgage crisis would equal property owners not being able to pay their mortage payments because their tenants have gone under?  Yes?)

24

18, there's been enough lawbreaking to fill that empty jail in MT but I wouldn't hold my breath for any prosecutions: http://tinyurl.com/yllhgm6

 

25 19 hmmm... would bush have no power to put stipulations on how tarp was spent? None?

The fed guys I guess are independent, right? Okay. But still, strings can be put on the money.

Posted by: ace at October 27, 2009 05:54 PM (eRvRI)

Of course he could, but instead he threw up his hands and said let the pointy headed financial types take care of things, and they took care of things by making sure their golfing buddies were covered.

Show trials and executions would have worked better.

26 Its good to see the WSJ come around finally.  Now if only they would change their tune on amnesty, we could start talking again.  Until then, I'm still giving them the Cold Shoulder.

It stings, but someone has to do it.

27 Why risk your own money at this point ?

28 23,

Yes ma'am/sir!

29 Has Ace officially retracted his support of TARP?  I'm convinced he has.  Think he even said, "I was wrong."

BUT HAVE WE SEEN AN OFFICIAL RETRACTION?!?!?!BRAZILLION-LEVENTY!?!?!?!

30 Including, why would a comm. mortage crisis be delayed so long, especially if the worst part of the downturn is over

(I assume the comm. mortgage crisis would equal property owners not being able to pay their mortage payments because their tenants have gone under?  Yes?)

Yes to your last question.  However, the reason this is being delayed is that Fannie and Freddie were not involved in commercial lending, so these mortgages were not, for the most part, outright gifts to the freakin' shiftless.  Another part of it is that, as the market weakened, there were still a lot of players who were able to take advantage of falling prices and seller desperation.  However, if the properties are simply sitting empty, the owners have to pay the mortgage, the insurance, the property taxes (which can be enormous).  We're not just talking malls here.  Take a drive through an industrial park and check out the vacancies.  Office buildings, too.  It's gonna be a bloodbath.

31 Peaches: There should have been a massive bloody beatdown last October and none of this should ever have happened.  Who knows?  The markets might have hit a quick, hard bottom and corrected themselves by now.

That is what many vociferously argued for in this blog.  A quick, sharp correction that lays the foundation for a healthy recovery.  Now all we are going to get is an anemic recovery, followed by surging inflation.

Sadly, no one listens to us.  If they did, there would be more bacon air fresheners stocked in Walmart.

32

So, when are the trials?  We've got hundreds of people to go through, but I think we should start at sitting Congress-critters, administration officials and any ineligible, America-hating Precedents who might be loitering near the Oval Office.  There's enough fraud to go around.

And that WSJ excerpt made me tear up.  That was a really sad story.  And they still don't get it.  There was no excuse for not knowing what was going to happen, at best.  And the fact that not a single toxic asset was ever bought with the Toxic Asset Relief Program was a real slap in the face.  (Don't hassle me about Toxic/Troubled)

Oh well.  For the next individualistic nation that cherishes federalism and private property rights with strictly limited roles for the various arms of government, we'll keep this in mind.  This nation blew it, in a spectacular and likely suicidal way - as America certainly did declare the end of sanity and national suicide on Nov 4th of 2008.

33 "21 Sounds like the banks got a ROBUST deal.

Posted by: guy trying to set off fiatboomer at October 27, 2009 05:57 PM (wAQA5)"

Nah, a "friends of Angelo deal" is more like it.

34 Peach you are a Peach.

35

Why risk your own money at this point ?

DING DING DING DING EFFING DING

Our phrase today is "moral hazard", boys and girls.

36 Another element of the commercial meltdown is that the loans are short-term (5 to 10 years, max).  So, there's no negotiating or wiggle room.  They come due and there's a big-ass payoff due.  Unless you can re-fi the thing, you're toast.  And who's going to re-fi a multi-million dollar mortgage on a vacant property?  The banks will have no choice but to keep adding massive toxic assets to their balance sheets.

37 progressoverpeace: There was no excuse for not knowing what was going to happen

Fear, plain and simple.  Principles are surprisingly easy to ditch when someone points a gun at your head. 

38 Only the grand children (and their children) of the 52% who voted for Obama's generational theft should have to pay this, in my humble opinion.

39 20 I would like to once again thank the financial genius sector of the economy for providing the communists the gun with which to blow a hole in the cranium of capitalism.

------------

I will never get why the guys who should be the biggest defenders of the free-market are so reliably against the free market during times of crisis.

Is it because they secretly feel guilty for making money that they believe they have to subvert the private sector economy?  Or maybe they're retards.  Those are the only reasons I can think of.

40 Peach you are a Peach.

Anytime, 'Nam.  I just jumped in.  That was my field before I became a "ward of the state."  And I'm still agog that so few people see this coming, it's just wilfull ignorance.

41 And who's going to re-fi a multi-million dollar mortgage on a vacant property? 

Posted by: Peaches at October 27, 2009 06:08 PM (9Wv2j)

Don't worry.  The feral government will buy the property (Hey, Nanzi, raise that new VAT thing 1%, will you) and have their buddies at SEIU and the AFL-CIO manage and develop it.  Those guys are geniuses.

42 Unfortunately, Chewbacca Defense, a lot of those people aren't taxpayers but are choosing to abort.

43

Only the grand children (and their children) of the 52% who voted for Obama's generational theft should have to pay this, in my humble opinion.

In fairness to the 52% (yes, I said it), the chief architect of the TARP criminal enterprise was Hank Paulson, Bush's Treasury Secretary.  Arrest warrant number one should bear his name. 

44 20,

I'm just a lowly grunt, but sometimes I can see what the so called pro's can't!

45 40, oops

46 I'm thinking it's a  Ken Kesey novel.

47 Blame Paulsen. He bailed out his cronies.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/treasury-secretary-looks-out-for-his-buddies-first/

48 "I suppose we should just be glad it wasn't a $1.10 on the dollar. "

I am guess that when you factor in what he have lost in the devalued dollar, it was more than that in "today" money

49 Ummm! This is going to get ugly.

Timmy Geithner and the Bad Assets (Not just a garage band anymore) gonna have a lot of 'splainen to do" as Ricky Ricardo used to tell  Lucy.

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Thin Hit Geometry            Mighty Tot Herein
Nighty Riot Theme            Hitting My Hetero
Onetime Thigh Try            Nighty Termite Ho
Tree Hitting Homy            Hey, Mothering Tit
Hogtie Thirty Men            Hey, Him Tottering
The Toying Hermit           Their Money Tight

51 Sorry 46 = wrong thread.

52 Fear, plain and simple.  Principles are surprisingly easy to ditch when someone points a gun at your head. 

Posted by: oLD gUY at October 27, 2009 06:09 PM (P/D33)

I understand the fear, and it was well-founded.  But fear doesn't make people write crappy legislation and totally ignore the Constitution (okay - the lunatic Dem Congress ignores the Constitution for fun).  But the real story about what caused the collapse couldn't even get out at the time, adn still hasn't, as evidenced by the fact that the CRA has not been repealed and when Maxine Waters tried to shake down Paulson at the very House hearings over TARP saying that she wanted 'minority and women-owned businesses' to get their share of managing the purchased toxic assets (which never, ever, ever happened, anyhow).  Waters should have been run out of Washington that very day.

It wasn't fear.  It was a lot of ignorance and stupidity that did it, with no one acting like an adult.  The House GOP (and some GOP Senators tried) against immense pressure, and they held it off for a little bit. 

But when much of the same Congress then wasted $800 billion for the rushed, unread Porkulus, that was just outright fraud.  Anyone who was scared by The Precedent's hard sell on that is too stupid for any responsibility, at all.

53 But, Timmy Geitner is the smartest man around. Only he can save us! Only he can save us!

54 39, they forget about the free market when the forces therein start to make them pay the price for their decisions.

55 KingShamus@39,

Because they really don't believe in the free market. They are invested in it, either tangentially or directly, and its demise is their demise. When the going gets tough and their stakes are effected and the argument is no longer just an intellectual exercise, they'll look for their own bailout, too.

56 This has got to be the most incompetent admin. evahhh, I just laff and laff everyday at how stupid the libs are in all categories.

57

I think the financial genii get caught up in whether something can work, rather than what the odds are that something will work.  Odds that congress wouldn't pork up and pork out on a 70 gazillion dollar free money bonanza, thus negating any possible beneficial effect?  About 1:1, as it turns out.  And people are shocked by this because...

...I guess because they weren't paying attention.

58

Posted by: oLD gUY at October 27, 2009 06:09 PM (P/D33)

BTW, the reason why I said that it was easy to know what was going to happen was because all anyone had to do was ask Paulson where he got the $700 billion figure from.  He pulled it right out of his ass, which was the tip off that he was palying the whole thing by ear.  But no one ever asked him and they never put any real oversight/public disclosure/limits in, as the House GOP had been pleading for.

59 It has all been intentional. The last administration to this one. All intentional.

60

I will never get why the guys who should be the biggest defenders of the free-market are so reliably against the free market during times of crisis.

 

The financial sector is just one subsection of the class of rent-seeking businessmen. There is no particular reason why they should be defenders of the free market, not if it's costing them money. They are in the business of making money for themselves, period. If doing so means buying politicians and screwng the free market, don't even think of getting in their way.

61 The freemarket had nothing to do with this. When governments can game the system there is no freemarket. Just so you know.

62

Don't miss this part.

The Federal Reserve has been reluctant to publish information on its efforts to stabilize the financial system since the crisis began. The Fed has loaned more than $2 trillion, yet it refuses to name the recipients of the loans, or cite the amount they borrowed, saying that doing so may set off a run by depositors and unsettle shareholders.

 

63

When governments banks can game the system there is no freemarket.

 

FIFY.

64 I think Reason made a slight error.  I read the linked Bloomberg article, which states that AIG wanted to offer the banks a discount of 40 cents on the dollar, which to me means they would have given them 60 cents on the dollar.

I don't know that much about finance, but even during the Resolution Trust days, weren't the S&L's and Banks forced to write-off at least some part of bad loans?  Where is the media on this?  The Republicans?  This is a lot worse than what Geithner did on his taxes.

65 progressoverpeace: It wasn't fear.  It was a lot of ignorance and stupidity that did it

Ah, but they did know, so did a lot of smart posters here.  I understand what you are saying, though.  Ignorance and stupidity works for the Dems.  But the WSJ?  Come on.  They knew.

But the real story about what caused the collapse couldn't even get out at the time, adn still hasn't,...

Which guarantees that this story is not over.  There is worse to come...

66 Which guarantees that this story is not over.  There is worse to come...

Posted by: oLD gUY at October 27, 2009 06:39 PM (P/D33)

Big time.  And you are right that many others were moved by fear.  But that fear should have directed them to the idea that the most important thing to protect is our monetary system, the dollar, not the economy (this is something that Bush never really understood).  I used to get incensed as people talked about economic issues with respect to TARP when it was a monetary situation.  But, that's how it all leaked into the rest of the economy and led to buyouts of car manufacturers and became a big slush fund used to bully private capital to wring out cash and benefits for polticians' interests and unions.

67 funny thing about this whole mess,....the same asshats that caused this financial train wreck are still in charge. Bernanke, Paulson, Little Timmy Geithner and the Bad Assets, Barney Frank, Christopher Dodd,.....

They are all still working on "our" behalf.

Folks! We've been fleeced and they are not done yet.

68 I will never get why the guys who should be the biggest defenders of the free-market are so reliably against the free market during times of crisis.

The driving force for businessmen is maximizing their own profit.  We all do this, or at least feel the temptations to do it.  Some are strong enough to resist, others not so much. CEO's, welfare queens, you, me.  If that means capitalism, then great.  If that means rent seeking from taxpayers, that will work too.  We need to keep this in mind and not be shocked whenever they do this.

69 Posted by: flenser at October 27, 2009 06:30 PM (jVWCe)

Oops, you said the same thing only better.

70 flenser: saying that doing so may set off a run by depositors and unsettle shareholders.

What galls me is that this is what needs to happen.  We have isolated the banks from any adverse consequence for bad behavior.  Guarantee the deposits, fine, but the banks need to be punished.  If there is only reward, but no punishment then the free market dies.  Which is happening as we speak.

71 I cannot stress this point enough. Wall Street writes the rules.

So, they internalize order flow. This means they take your orders, trade against them with their account, and immediately arbitrage the position off for a profit in a dark pool of liquidity, or on a market, or an option position.

They actually pay discount brokers for order flow-in order to get more orders to trade against. In the OTC market, it's highway robbery.

AIG should have been allowed to fail. The dominoes would have fallen then. Other entities and banks would have risen to the occasion. That's free market capitalism.

72 CDO

that would make a nice big tattoo on Timothy Geithner's rather large forehead.

or a brand if you're out of ink

73 Geithner’s slicing through our tax money like a f'n' hammer!

Thank you, I'm here all week.  Tip your waitress.

74 progressoverpeace: the most important thing to protect is our monetary system, the dollar, not the economy

Which was once supposed to be the job of the Fed, but mission creep is insidious and goes unnoticed.  Now they see themselves as guardians of the economy as a whole, which will lead to complete failure in the end.

75 The Federal Reserve is neither Federal nor is it a Reserve.

The fix was in in 1913.

We've been fleeced.

76

A large number of otherwise sensible small-goverment conservative/libertarian types have this misty-eyed notion that Americas CEO's and Wall Street bankers all have well-thumbed copies of Adam Smith, F.A. Hayek and Milton Friedman on their desks.

But a quick glance at the works of the aforementioned Smith, Hayek and Friedman would tell you that businessmen are the biggest enemy of the free market. They're not the defenders of the system, and its madness to expect them to be.

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78 The 2010 elections are going to go down as a historical event.  It will be known as "the Great Purge"©

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Gosh, thanks!!  Boots, you say?  Why sure, I could use some boots...

80  This is a much bigger deal than most people realize or understand.  Goldman guys are not stupid, they had apparently hedged a great deal of their exposure to AIG prior to the blowup.  For example, let's say you get nervous about AIG as a going concern.  You could short a shit load of stock or their debt in case they blew up.  Now that happened and I suppose the Goldman guys were sitting around thinking "thank God we hedged it out and the position won't be a completer disaster".  So on one hand they lose billions on the credit default swaps but make billions on their short hedges.  Kind of a wash or slight loser for them.  Now the phone rings and they find out they are going to made whole on the swaps!  I'll bet they shit themselves!  They get made whole on their losing positions and cover their short positions and a loser trade turns out to make billions!  What a country!  Ask yourself, why didn't the debt holders get cut down?  They were being paid higher than the risk free rate because they were assuming risk!  They got paid off as well at par.  I'm telling you, there is a Pulitzer prize for the asking but the media is too fucking stupid to figure this out.

81 Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating violence of any sort.  However, if I had money, I'd be trying to establish a legitimate, secure enclave state that has sufficient natural resources and a small enough population that an independent, free State could be formed when the chaos comes.  The Free State Project is, as one would expect, a clusterfuk of monumental proportions because it is leaderless and unfunded.  New Hampshire, pfftt.  Organizing libertarians is a contradiction in terms. How're those democrats doing? 

Seriously, creating independent mini-economies is what we should be focusing on, with the initial infrastructure made affordable through current market conditions. Non-public companies moving modest industrial manufacturing of essentials to rural areas, with the intent to defy unconstitutional orders.  The feds might bust down a door or two in a night, but they can't raid a town.  Safely.

82 Let me make this clear.  Goldman didn't "get made whole".  They made a fortune!

83 80 82  Great posts, Dan. 

84 hobgoblin

people have been doing that for years.

I've been here over 10 years.

85 Where's "here", bulgar?

86 "Bailout" should be like "Bankruptcy" ... but worse.

The entire concept of "Too big to fail" just points out "Hey, you're too big."

1) Everyone in the entire top tier - fired. Not "May we have your resignation, please." No, Fired. This goes along with breaking all of the contracts these individuals have with the company. That is: Golden Parachutes - cut. No exceptions.

2) Then break the company along divisional lines into completely separate companies. Then you can think about "Well, this division would use a loan." Maybe. Or, "This division should go straight into full bankruptcy.

But you have to make sure that the people steering the ship have some freaking skin in the game. And aligning things in this fashion would mean any company requesting a "Bailout" is probably truly completely screwed - as opposed to just looking for the easy cash.

Instead of "GM drops Saturn", we'd be hearing about how Saturn Inc. compares to Pontiac Inc. Some of these would fail - but they had better not be "Too big to fail" or we'll rinse-wash-repeat.

87

Anyone remember what Ace called those who thought maybe, just maybe, we should put some consideration into TARP before running headlong into it?

Anyone?

88 hobgoblin

North Carolina.

89 Nice to see the WSJ finally catch up but was it so difficult to comprehend that giving the federal government hundreds of billions of dollars to address a problem and total freedom in how to spend it was a bad idea?

90 "was it so difficult to comprehend that giving the federal government hundreds of billions of dollars to address a problem and total freedom in how to spend it was a bad idea?"

It is for liberals. Q.E.D.

91 And, apparently, the guys at Wall Street Journal. And some who panicked on the right, who will go unnamed.

92

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93

"I'm kinda leaning towards no government at this point."

Turns out you don't really need one.

94

@81: "The feds might bust down a door or two in a night, but they can't raid a town.  Safely."

Unless you have an air force of some sort, they can. 

You'd also need a secure source of water, large stocks of food, and a secure means of getting information out. Otherwise, you'd be a collection of child-molesting oddball religious fanatics just begging for slap.

95 "And, apparently, the guys at Wall Street Journal. And some who panicked on the right, who will go unnamed."

They may technically be Republicans or Independents. But their view of "trusting government with a huge freaking pile of cash" is liberal. Bush trusted that Paulson wasn't screwing around - and then deferred to the President-Elect. But they're all - at least fiscally - liberal.

Ok, some of those that panicked might not be at heart. I was pretty panicked at the time too. (Wamu wiped a solid chunk off of me.) But even being "Pro Bailout - in principle" isn't the same as being "Pro No Strings Cash Bailout."

96

Come on, Ace, with that headline. You meant "Hooo Boy, Boy", didn't you?

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98

POP:

He pulled it right out of his ass, which was the tip off that he was palying the whole thing by ear.

Kind of. They've already admitted they pulled the number out of their ass because they needed it to be so big that nobody would doubt the Federal government was devoting the resources to fix this mess. It worked, too.

I suspect the reason the Treasury told AIG to pay par was that it made the bookkeeping easier. One way or the other those loans had to be made whole (as they saw it) and it was simpler to do it at the front gate rather than assess losses down the road. This is a guess but an informed one.

Specualtion about Goldman's happy-time arb hijinks are amusing and I have no reason to suspect untrue. They do seem always to step out of the outhouse smelling like a rose.

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100

Kind of. They've already admitted they pulled the number out of their ass because they needed it to be so big that nobody would doubt the Federal government was devoting the resources to fix this mess. It worked, too.

Posted by: spongeworthy at October 28, 2009 07:23 AM (rplL3)

That revelation didn't come out until long after the dastardly deed was done.  The question of the size (given, especially, that it was the pargest extaordinary funding bill ever in the history of the US and was totally un-Constitutional in the lack of targeting and the wide discretion fo authority it gave to Treasury) should have been at the very center of the original debate, but it was never mentioned. Fancy that.

Secondly, even this "revelation" was a lie.  $700 billion was nothing.  The Fed immediately dumped over $2 trillion into the system by swapping out for useless toxic assets (though we really don't know, since the Fed has fought tooth and nail to never reveal what it actually swapped the cash for), printed over a trillion directly, and lots of banks were saved by finally removing mark-to-market requirements (which allows them to work some magic with the books ... for a while).  Now, don't get me wrong.  Mark-to-market requirements for illiquid instruments that are susceptible to wild swings whenever a holder of specifics goes belly up and is forced into a fire sale is close to the most insane idea I have ever heard of.  Mark-to-market was insane for these instruments, but it's removal presents some problems of its own in assessing the real value of the toxic assets.

Thirdly, this explanation for the size of TARP, if accepted as true (which it isn't - Paulson still has no idea why he asked for that; he would have asked for more if he thought he could get it) should be grounds for imprisonment, being the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the US.  Of course, the legislation itself was totally un-Constitutional (there was nothing wrong with extraordinary efforts taken in order to save our monetary system, which Congress is charged with running and which is the most important institution to the continued existence of the federal government and our nation, but anything beyond the monetary system constituted an overreach of the federal government).

And for anyone who thinks that the Fed is going to drain the system when the insane monetary inflation (now known, euphemistically, as "quantitative easing", in respectable company, though known as insane printing of currency on the street) hits the general system in a big way ... whoa, boy!  That ain't gonna happen in a million years.  What will happen is too scary to really talk about.

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