Nancy Pelosi Assumes That ObamaCare Will Destroy Private Insurance and Put Everyone on Government Insurance
It's difficult to say she "assumes" this, because she's utterly stupid and it's questionable she's thought this through.Still, let me assume for one moment she is not diagnosably retarded and can follow her own implications. She wants to consider (that means, she wants to impose) a Value Added Tax to every good or service sold in America. However, she claims this will not increase the prices of goods. How can she make such a claim? Watch the reasoning:
"I would say, Put everything on the table and subject it to the scrutiny that it deserves," Pelosi told Rose when asked if the VAT has any appeal to her. The VAT is a tax on manufacturers at each stage of production on the amount of value an additional producer adds to a product. Pelosi argued that the VAT would level the playing field between U.S. and foreign manufacturers, the latter of which do not have pension and healthcare costs included in the price of their goods because their governments provide those services, financed by similar taxes. "They get a tax off of that and they use that money to pay the healthcare for their own workers," Pelosi said, using the example of auto manufacturers. "So their cars coming into our country don't have a healthcare component cost. "Somewhere along the way, a value-added tax plays into this. Of course, we want to take down the healthcare cost, that's one part of it," the Speaker added. "But in the scheme of things, I think it's fair look at a value- added tax as well."Got that? American products currently include in their cost the cost of providing health insurance for the workers making the products. This puts them at a competitive disadvantage with foreign products, she asserts, where health insurance is provided by the government and thus not included in the price of a product. So: If we merely impose a Value Added Tax on everything, we can use that money to pay for health insurance for everyone, and companies will not have to pay for health insurance. It will be provided by the government, paid for through the VAT. Assumption not-well-hidden in that: All US companies will stop paying for employee insurance and instead let the government provide it. That assumption is needed for her claim. For, if any company continues providing health insurance, their prices will go up -- as they are paying double for health insurance, once directly for their own employees, twice indirectly to cover everyone else through the VAT -- and thus would be a competitive disadvantage against all other US companies (and foreign companies) relying on government-provided insurance, and not paying for insurance out of their own pockets. Pelosi assumes, then, that all US companies will drop private employee coverage like a bad habit and let everyone go on the government system, rather than bankrupting themselves to pay double health care costs. And she's right in that assumption. But then: Whatever shall we make of Barack Obama's oft-repeated claim, "Let me be clear: If you have insurance, you get to keep your insurance"? Thanks to Andrew's Dad.
1 Her brain is frozen from all the botox. She can't truly believe the crap that comes out of her mouth, can she?
Posted by: Jane D'oh! at October 06, 2009 03:19 PM (UOM48)
2 Ahhhh, taxes. Is there anything they can't do?
Posted by: Naughty Nancy at October 06, 2009 03:21 PM (xxgag)
3 How can she keep a straight face?
stupid me, her face is always that way
Posted by: Mjim at October 06, 2009 03:21 PM (V8B//)
4 I would say that she is as dumb as a box of hammers, but even hammers have some sharp edges. I guess that makes it a box of rocks. yeah, that's the ticket
Posted by: Stephana at October 06, 2009 03:22 PM (olUEe)
5 But the costs of the taxes that pay for the govt health insurance is not included in the cost of the product?
Posted by: Dan Rather at October 06, 2009 03:23 PM (1Y3Fy)
6 See, when you change the payor, then the cost disappears! Magic Gnomes strike again
Posted by: Truman North at October 06, 2009 03:23 PM (e8YaH)
7 RE: the oft quoted "you can keep your insurance," I'm guessing they're going to get around it- instead of health insurance companies just shutting down, I'm guessing ole' Uncle Sam will simply commandeer them or their name and your "Blue Cross" or "HAP" will become "Blue Cross Public Option" and "HAP Public Option." So technically, the name will stay the same. Sure, your benefits will change and you'll die waiting for an MRI, but indeed you will keep your insurance. It will just be a new policy. You'll simply get a letter saying "there are changes in your policy" and BAM! You're on the public option and you didn't even do anything.
Posted by: shibumi at October 06, 2009 03:24 PM (OKZrE)
8 October 09 copy of Vanity Fair. An interview with Hank Paulson.
"The two best on the Hill are Nancy Pelosi for always returning my calls and Barney Frank because he actually knows what he's talking about."
We are so fucked.
Posted by: WTFCI at October 06, 2009 03:25 PM (GtYrq)
So it's OK to call her stupid?
Posted by: YIKES! at October 06, 2009 03:25 PM (tFrIQ)
10 >>> But the costs of the taxes that pay for the govt health insurance is not included in the cost of the product?
Yes.. but in her reasoning, companies cut $5000 per worker to pay for insurance, and they get hit with an (on average) $5000 per worker cost in VATs, so in the end it's plus 5000 minus 5000, net zero.
But this assumes everyone stops paying for health insurance for their workers. Otherwise the cost is 5000 per worker plus another 5000 per worker.
Posted by: ace at October 06, 2009 03:26 PM (jlvw3)
11 52% of this country deserves to be shot in the head.
Posted by: TexasJew at October 06, 2009 03:26 PM (dA3/p)
12 1. Switch payor from A to B
Posted by: brak at October 06, 2009 03:26 PM (1Y3Fy)
13 But then: Whatever shall we make of Barack Obama's oft-repeated claim,
"Let me be clear: If you have insurance, you get to keep your
About the same thing we make of his oft-repeated claim,
"Let me be clear: If you make less that $250,000 you not pay one dime more in taxes".
Posted by: DrewM. at October 06, 2009 03:28 PM (ur6Ar)
14 The only people more stupid than Pelosi are the ones that vote for her.
Posted by: bulwark at October 06, 2009 03:28 PM (jvrmc)
15 Taxes? Never heard of 'em.
Posted by: Charlie Gibson at October 06, 2009 03:29 PM (pEaV5)
16 Pelosi needs to lay off the gay wine, stat.
Posted by: Dr. Spank at October 06, 2009 03:29 PM (uVAgY)
17 Little Known True Scientific Fact: The vacuum between Nancy Pelosi's ears perfectly counterbalances the density of Earth's core, thereby allowing the Earth to exist as it is, rather than instantly collapsing upon itself.
Posted by: Sharkman at October 06, 2009 03:30 PM (prBaA)
18 Let me make it perfectly clear. Our intent is complete government takeover of the entire health care industry.
The VAT is just something we think we can get on the side.
Posted by: Barrack Insane Obama at October 06, 2009 03:31 PM (CDUiN)
19 Is there a market for fake Pelosi porn, like what the porn industry did with Palin?
Posted by: Uniball at October 06, 2009 03:31 PM (27iEn)
20 Keep fucking that country
Posted by: libbyt at October 06, 2009 03:33 PM (ehfwB)
21 After healthcare comes the electric industry. That means we will have the banks, the auto industry, healthcare, and the electric utilities.
The only thing left will be all your mom and pop shops. We will get them through taxation.
Posted by: Barrack Insane Obama at October 06, 2009 03:33 PM (CDUiN)
22 The level of economic ignorance on display in her statements are mind-boggling.
Let's start with foreign companies operating in the U.S.: Toyota, BMW and Hyundai all offer health plans to their employees. So imposing a VAT on their products would level the playing field for exactly who how?
And if you want regressive taxes--go the VAT route. Just takes your breath away.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at October 06, 2009 03:33 PM (B+qrE)
23 Can we safely assume that Nancy doesn't do the bookkeeping for her winery?
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at October 06, 2009 03:34 PM (ZGhSv)
24 LIKE A BAD HABIT, you mean.
Posted by: RJ at October 06, 2009 03:34 PM (vQdwt)
25 But then: Whatever shall we make of Barack Obama's oft-repeated claim, "Let me be clear: If you have insurance, you get to keep your insurance"?
Make of it exactly what you should, which is to say that the gubmit will not force your employer to drop your plan, your EVIL GREEDY CAPITALIST company will force you onto the gubmit plan.
You see how he did that, with the word mincing? Yeah, he learned that at law school.
Posted by: shank at October 06, 2009 03:35 PM (+H1yK)
26 What value exactly is added by a VAT anyway?
Posted by: Rocks at October 06, 2009 03:35 PM (Q1lie)
27 I'm moving to the first state that secedes. Can't happen soon enough.
Posted by: Peaches at October 06, 2009 03:35 PM (9Wv2j)
28 How is it that advocates of the VAT never say they will eliminate all the other taxes. They will just add this one on top of it.
Posted by: Vic at October 06, 2009 03:35 PM (CDUiN)
29 From what I understand the VAT is not nearly enough to pay for government healthcare. The dems want it to speed up the rate at which companies drop their employees into the government plan. It's a part of the incremental strategy to get a single payer system that the left has sought for decades.
So, the VAT isn't the first tax. It's not even viewed by its proponents as the main revenue stream for single payer.
In other words: WAF
Posted by: runninrebel at October 06, 2009 03:35 PM (i3PJU)
30 >52% of this country deserves to be shot in the head.
Posted by: RJ at October 06, 2009 03:36 PM (vQdwt)
31 Is there anyone in this administration that can count?
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at October 06, 2009 03:37 PM (ZGhSv)
32 21 Keep fucking that country
Posted by: libbyt
Posted by: Truman North at October 06, 2009 03:38 PM (e8YaH)
33 On the positive side, webbots say the dollar is going to collapse at the end of the month, that should take the government's eyes off the health care ball for at least a day or two.
Posted by: shibumi at October 06, 2009 03:38 PM (OKZrE)
34 >>>Still, let me assume for one moment she is not diagnosably retarded and can follow her own implications.
Ah. . .there's your first mistake.
In all seriousness, no she probably isn't retarded in the literal sense (eg an IQ of below 70), but she definitely ain't that bright, and she really probably CAN'T follow her own implications.
Posted by: looking closely at October 06, 2009 03:38 PM (6Q9g2)
Posted by: d at October 06, 2009 03:38 PM (uTknY)
36 >I'm moving to the first state that secedes. Can't happen soon enough.
I'm just moving to Japan. Going to marry me a robot cumslut.
Posted by: RJ at October 06, 2009 03:38 PM (vQdwt)
37 Even her face is a lie.
Posted by: torabora at October 06, 2009 03:38 PM (gLVJ8)
38 The only thing left will be all your mom and pop shops.
Posted by: Wal Mart at October 06, 2009 03:39 PM (wOGfT)
39 Oh just great! Now we'll have to hear how the right wing blogs are distorting what Pelosi is saying, blah, blah, blah. And then Obama will have to come out and make a commercial saying that "you can keep your current insurance, blah, blah, blah." And some Republican will have to apologize - again - for calling not only Barry, but Pelosi, a liar, blah, blah. And Barry will have to once again have to say how "death panels" are not in the bill because that language isn't specifically used. And the lefty Barry bobbers will have to come here to tell us all how evil we are.
Effing liberals just hate lying. Especially when theyhave to lieabout the lies they say they weren't telling when they were lying in the first place.
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at October 06, 2009 03:39 PM (RkRxq)
>52% of this country deserves to be shot in the head.53%, actually.
Actually, I just want them to be re-located to a wonderful socialist paradise, like Cuba or Venezuela or maybe even the Palestinian territory where they can live out their lives far, far away from me.
Posted by: shibumi at October 06, 2009 03:39 PM (OKZrE)
41 "The two best on the Hill are Nancy Pelosi for always returning my
calls and Barney Frank because he actually knows what he's talking
I can't believe Paulson is talking about gay anal sex on my dime.
Posted by: Michael at October 06, 2009 03:39 PM (siOQ7)
42 I'm just moving to Japan. Going to marry me a robot cumslut.
Posted by: RJ at October 06, 2009 03:38 PM (vQdwt)
I'm sure you'll look fabulous in one of those boobie scarves!
Posted by: Peaches at October 06, 2009 03:39 PM (9Wv2j)
43 After the counter-revolution you will not be able to question me!
All inside the state, nothing outside of the State!
Obey and Work Commeraden.
Posted by: N. Pelosiyeva, Member - Politburo, Central Committee at October 06, 2009 03:39 PM (s2bW4)
From what I understand the VAT is not nearly enough to pay for government healthcare.
Actually, I think it's the only tax that can pay for it. Think how much money you can bring in by levying a tax on every bit of economic activity in this country.
It'll be a goldmine! Well, it will be until it brings economic activity crashing down. But for those 3 or 4 days? Pure awesome!
Posted by: DrewM. at October 06, 2009 03:40 PM (ur6Ar)
45 Yep - shift the cost to the government and the costs just disappear - like magic.
This level of stoopid is right up there with the people who seemingly believe that letting the federal government run healthcare will actually lead to a more efficient bureaucracy.
Posted by: DocJ at October 06, 2009 03:40 PM (dt6br)
46 she's utterly stupid
The finest three words you have ever written, Ace. Clear, simple, to the point and free of typos. My congratulations to you, Sir.
Posted by: mikeyslaw at October 06, 2009 03:40 PM (QMGr1)
47 More Republican lies. Health care is an expense to US employers. Taxes are revenue.
Didn't anyone tell you that revenue is goodand expenses are bad? That's Government 101. Had you taken the time to learn more about how government works instead of playing the banjo and polishing your machineguns, you'd know better than repeat so many lies.
More revenue and fewer expenses. That's progressany way you look at it.
Posted by: Nancy Pelosi at October 06, 2009 03:40 PM (plsiE)
48 So is there going to be a VAT to pay for health care AND income taxes for everything else? Is there a more effective way of devastating the economy?
Posted by: joncelli at October 06, 2009 03:41 PM (RD7QR)
49 Great find, but loose shit in the summary. I don't remember people dropping bad happens. Feel free to drop this comment after cleaning up the summary.
Posted by: Just Another Poster at October 06, 2009 03:41 PM (HAdov)
50 But I heard government health care is going to funded by cutting waste and fraud in current government health care?
Posted by: FreakyBoy at October 06, 2009 03:41 PM (4s1it)
51 Add VAT. Add Health insurance surcharge on employers. Addtax on Health insurance for employees. Reduce number of Doctors/hospitals/clinics. Increase number of days waiting for Health care. Increase death rate. = Saving trillions. That must be that new math they talk about.
Posted by: Digger12291970 at October 06, 2009 03:42 PM (gCaxJ)
52 Is there a more effective way of devastating the economy?
If there is one, a Dimuhcrat will find it.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at October 06, 2009 03:43 PM (ZGhSv)
53 In all seriousness, no she probably isn't retarded in the literal sense
(eg an IQ of below 70), but she definitely ain't that bright, and she
really probably CAN'T follow her own implications.
Imagine if you will, a giant hole in your brain where your ability to use logic used to be. Instead of reasoning, every decision will be made on Eeeeemoootion, since you have no other choice. You know, how you feel determines every single decision you make.
That's what it's like to be a liberal.
Posted by: shibumi at October 06, 2009 03:43 PM (OKZrE)
54 What value exactly is added by a VAT anyway?
A higher tax bill on industries that don't have enough political connections and/or haven't contributed enough to the campaign funds of the right people in Congress.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at October 06, 2009 03:43 PM (plsiE)
55 Can we focus on something important here...it's almost 9 months into the Greatest Presidency EVAH and I still don't have my unicorn.
Where's my damn unicorn?
Posted by: DrewM. at October 06, 2009 03:43 PM (ur6Ar)
56 Let's say it together: Redistribution of wealth
They will propose this VAT in addition to the
existing income taxes. When it is pointed out that the ''poor'' can't
afford it they will come up with a tax ''rebate'' for said poor - which means
more transfer of wealth via socialist means.
Posted by: paranoid polly at October 06, 2009 03:45 PM (r7Vc3)
57 The very fact that Pelosi is floating this tells me that they are definitely going to try and force a government option one way or another.
We'll see about that. I'm on the fence as to whether they can actually pull that off.
But I can't wait to see their bill that "simplifies" the tax code. I'm guessing they'll cut out all deductions that aren't a hand out to their base, raise the top two brackets, and say, "See there? Now isn't that easier?"
Posted by: runninrebel at October 06, 2009 03:45 PM (i3PJU)
But I heard government health care is going to funded by cutting waste and fraud in current government health care?
Yes, but, they will not begin to address the fraud and waste until they've replaced that method of taking our money. No way they were going to get started on that and show us all the piles of money they'd been accumulating to pay for this spiffy new health coverage. That would be wrong.
Posted by: Peaches at October 06, 2009 03:45 PM (9Wv2j)
59 Value added Tax...especially for morons who drink, smoke or have sex. Look for hooker prices to double.
Wiki on VAT
Posted by: Papa Ray at October 06, 2009 03:45 PM (JpVJn)
60 Whatever shall we make of Barack Obama's oft-repeated claim, "Let me be clear: If you have insurance, you get to keep your insurance, until I take it away from you"?
Fixed it for Barry
Posted by: TheQuietMan at October 06, 2009 03:46 PM (1Jaio)
61 botox'd, lying, and stupid are no way to go through life ma'am.
Posted by: Unclefacts, Summoner Of The Meteors, Lover of George Foreman Grilled Bacons at October 06, 2009 03:46 PM (erIg9)
62 I hope they pass this fucker. Really, I do. Because the only thing that might possibly rouse the slumbering population sufficiently that unruly mobs could storm DC and lynch the ruling class and their media propagandists in the streets is the massive unemployment and $20/ loaf bread this VAT would result in.
Posted by: ol_dirty_/b/tard at October 06, 2009 03:46 PM (IoUF1)
63 A VAT or national sales tax might make sense toreplace theincome tax (thus virtually eliminating the IRS), but if it is a SUPPLEMENT to income tax it's the worst possible nightmare. Just more government draining of the economy in a new, insidious form. The destruction will be considerable.
Regardless, the assertion that prices will not go up to cover any VAT is absurd. Not all companies offer health insurance now - are they supposed to just eat the loss? Not gonna happen.
If she's so worried about the subsidies other governments give their exporters, then she should deal with that directly. With compensatory tarriffs, perhaps? Let's see how well that flies...And"free health care" isjust one of the manygovernment props that are afforded to ourinternational competitors. When's she going to take on currencymanipulation? Figuring out the solution to that problemwould give us a 23% improvement in competitiveness against China.
These scum just can't get their heads around the idea that we need LESS government, not more. Hopefully soon the foreigners will wake up and stop buying our debt - thus forcing the government to slim down whether we like it or not. They can only inflate the dollar so far before the monied interests get upset and say No Mas. Finally, the hard choices will have to be made. They can only cut schools, roads,police,prisons, fire departments, and other essentials so far - evetually they'll have to explain why they need trillions of dollars to do nothingthat isuseful.
Posted by: Reactionary at October 06, 2009 03:47 PM (P+HSn)
64 Where's my damn unicorn?
They're going to be made in union workshops, so you'll be waiting for a while. Oh, and don't get one made on Monday or Friday. Or before or after a holiday. Or after lunch.
Posted by: joncelli at October 06, 2009 03:48 PM (RD7QR)
65 You know that road we’re on? You know – the road to socialism. Well Israel just took that road going in the other direction.
Here’s a brief summary of the trip.
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at October 06, 2009 03:49 PM (RkRxq)
66 It'll be a goldmine! Well, it will be until it brings economic activity crashing down. But for those 3 or 4 days? Pure awesome!
Gotta love liberal open-loop policies.
Posted by: Lemmiwinks at October 06, 2009 03:50 PM (IqfKc)
67 Where's my damn unicorn?
Either in Copenhagen or behind the Iranian centrifuge crates there on the left.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at October 06, 2009 03:50 PM (B+qrE)
68 This is getting me all swimmy headed. Quick. Somebody pour me a glass of wine.
Posted by: Barney Frank (C-MA) at October 06, 2009 03:50 PM (5aa4z)
69 But I heard government health care is going to funded by cutting waste and fraud in current government health care?
In the mind of a liberal, private competition is "waste".They believe it's more efficient tohave multiple one big government organization can do it in a centralized, planned manner rather than multiple entities all duplicating efforts. Paying large salaries to exectutives instead ofusinglesser paid civilservantsis just further "waste".
The effects can be seen by the highly profitable and efficient USPS and Amtrak.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at October 06, 2009 03:52 PM (plsiE)
70 Oops- the first "multiple" was an editing error.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at October 06, 2009 03:52 PM (plsiE)
71 69 - Will that be our new gay wine? Or would you prefer the kind made with grapes?
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at October 06, 2009 03:53 PM (RkRxq)
72 I'm on the fence as to whether they can actually pull that off.
Oh, they can -- if they dare. The Dems have the supermajority to make it happen; the only question is whether they'll go ahead with no Republican support. Their hesitation right now is due to a cowardly desire for a "bipartisan" shroud to hide behind. Moderate Democrats are shitting nickels because they know that none of their constituents want government health care, yet their own leadership is insisting on it. A "for" vote means doom come next election; a vote "against" means pissing off the Speaker or the Senate Majority Leader (who may be gone himself in the next election). Maybe 20% of the Donks are looking for any fig leaf at all to "thread the needle" on this one. I don't think they're going to find it.
Pelosi has done her best to completely alienate the Republican minority. Most of the Republican representatives now wouldn't piss on her if she was on fire. Any realistic chances of a truly bipartisan bill getting out of Congress are very slim indeed.
In the Senate Reid can always suck up to Snowe and Collins, and might pull one or both of them away; but he's apt to lose western Democrats (particularly Hegel and Nelson of Nebraska, and maybe Baucus and Tester as well).
So: if the Donks do it, they'll have to own it completely and resign themselves to a bloodbath in the 2010 midterms. Pelosi is clearly willing to risk it; Reid less so. (But then Reid is racing ruin himself, whereas Pelosi's seat is secure no matter what happens.)
Posted by: Monty at October 06, 2009 03:54 PM (4Pleu)
73 31 >52% of this country deserves to be shot in the head.53%, actually
We'regonna need a bigger gun.
Posted by: TexasJew at October 06, 2009 03:54 PM (dA3/p)
74 So "the change" +5000, -5000 nets to zero...
And how exactly does this net change of zero "level the playing field" Nancy?
Posted by: AndrewsDad at October 06, 2009 03:54 PM (C2//T)
75 If Keith Olbermann wins on Wednesday night, this entire health care debate becomes moot.
Posted by: FreakyBoy at October 06, 2009 03:55 PM (4s1it)
76 Listen, there is no need to get exited over the VAT. I don't want anyone to get hurt here. If the VAT becomes too much to bare we will just have a safe word for when it should stop. How about Palomino? If the VAT is too much yell Palomino!
Posted by: Nancy Pelosi at October 06, 2009 03:55 PM (Q1lie)
77 Well, SanFranNan is wrong about almost everything that she said, and I agree that there is certainly a big assumption that all companies STOP providing health care, which is exactly what would happen if the government imposes a huge tax to specifically pay for health care.
There is a big differential to the competitiveness of a company and government provided health care. Take the following example, I'll use Boeing and Airbus and a HUGE simplification that they both make all of their respective airplanes in country.
Boeing has great health care benefits, and the cost of each airplane does include the health care benefits of the employees (if they sell the airplane above it's cost).
Airbus has no (?) cost of health care in the price of it's airplanes.
Both probably have similar prices for raw materials bought on a world market. They both buy engines on the world market, so we'll assume that they are the same.
By this very simple math, you can see that if they both build the same airplane and sell it for the same price, that airbus would make more profit. (also assumes approximately the same cost for labor).
Now the airbus employees are burdened by sky high taxes that somewhere include the cost of socialized medicine, so if they make the same rate per hour, the europeans end up with less spendable money, but we knew that.
So if I were Boeing I would love this deal. It would make me more competitive in the market, and I could sell my product at a lower cost and still make as much money as I do now.
If I were the employee, I would hate this deal, because I'm now paying for my own health care thru higher taxes spread out across every single item that I buy or use.
So this actually sounds like a Republican thing (good for business) instead of a Democrat thing (anti-business first, then claim to be for the 'little guy') ... and extremely regressive in nature.
So if it sounds like business would approve of it and a democrat wants it, then it's about something else, which is control over more of the economy than they already have. Auto's and Finance is not enough to take over, they want health care too, then you will never get free of the government teat.
Posted by: Mephitis at October 06, 2009 03:55 PM (ehXLT)
78 I have never understood why people who want to live in France so bad don't move to France.
Posted by: HeatherRadish at October 06, 2009 03:56 PM (NtiET)
79 I'm here!
And not a moment too soon!
Posted by: Green Jobs at October 06, 2009 03:57 PM (dA3/p)
80 Is there a government dental plan in Pelosi's vision?
Posted by: Johnathan E. at October 06, 2009 03:57 PM (dQdrY)
81 #11 ace
" … net zero .…"
which means that foreign car makers have (in this respect, all else held equal, &c. &c.) the same cost of production as domestic car makers.
You may have been trying to make this point yourself, but it wasn't clear to me.
Your point that Nancy is as dumb as a poo house, however, was right on target.
Posted by: Troll Feeder at October 06, 2009 03:58 PM (H5h5c)
82 Now do you see why I'm worried about violence?
Posted by: Nancy Pelosi at October 06, 2009 03:58 PM (ehfwB)
83 Are New Yorker and San Fran survivors going to get government health care? Or are they all getting quarantined? I don't think glowing, radioactive, patients are going to be popular with medical personnel.
Posted by: hous bin pharteen at October 06, 2009 03:59 PM (Eom7x)
84 Did you not read my book or did you just think I was wrong?
Either way, don't say I didn't warn you.
Posted by: Friedrich Hayek at October 06, 2009 04:01 PM (ur6Ar)
85 Pelosi has done her best to completely alienate the Republican minority. Most of the Republican representatives now wouldn't piss on her if she was on fire.
I would take any opportunity to piss on Nancy Pelosi. Any. Even if she was on fire. The problem...I'm not sure urine would put out the chemical fire from all that botox.
Posted by: Mallamutt at October 06, 2009 04:01 PM (V9SYy)
86 Another irony here is that government payments for health care will do nothing but drive up costs.
First, everybody will feel entitled to get as much as they can. Got a headache? It's off to the emergency room. Kid got a fever? Ditto. Belly button got more lint than usual? Better see your GP. Feeling mildly depressed because the government just cost you your job? Better go talk to a shrink.
Second, feeding a market makes it cost more. Look at what government aid has done to "higher education" in this country. All that government money in the form of grants and loans flowing into the system has made it possible for academic administrators (many of themthe worst kind of scum imaginable)to make 6 figure salaries while teaching kids to hate America. That swamp needs draining. Dumpinggovernment cash into health care willhave the same effect - every hospital and clinic inAmerica is going to devote resources to figuring out how to maximize their takeof the loot.
Third, screw ups will abound - and screw ups cost money. When governmentbureaucrats run the system it'll be a crony-fest. Theworst doctors willbecome the hospital politicians, securing their places through brown nosing and worse. And then just waituntil government style affirmative action sets in. You'll have a system loaded with med school rejects who got by on their melanin count, andmuzzies eager to putinfidels under the knife and show them the mercy of their allah. There will be nothing to stop them. Do you think the government will accept being made to pay for the cost of law suits? Think again.Once government care is in,THEN you will see tortreform. That is to say - the governmentwill do for itself what it has failed to do for insurance companies.
It's going to be a cock-up of epic proportions.
Posted by: Reactionary at October 06, 2009 04:02 PM (P+HSn)
87 Posted by: FreakyBoy at October 06, 2009 03:55 PM (4s1it)
Posted by: libbyt at October 06, 2009 04:03 PM (ehfwB)
88 It's going to be a cock-up of epic proportions.
Posted by: Reactionary at October 06, 2009 04:02 PM (P+HSn)
They make a wine for that now.
Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at October 06, 2009 04:03 PM (5aa4z)
89 Living in this country right now is sort of like quietly eating your breakfast at "Windows on the World" at 8 AM on 9/11
Posted by: TexasJew at October 06, 2009 04:03 PM (dA3/p)
90 Nancy Pelosi and the lisping and sashaying Barney Frank make me wish the damned asteroids would get here soon!
Posted by: dfbaskwill at October 06, 2009 04:04 PM (7Gs5S)
91 The Democrats believe there is no feedback loop in the system. I think they are going to be surprised.
Posted by: Huckleberry at October 06, 2009 04:04 PM (s2bW4)
92 Thanks, AOSHQ. First, we gotta go fact check the SNL skit, which was kinda funny, so that was alright. Now, we gotta start fact checking your blog about the VAT. Hey, they don't teach you about VAT at Ivy League journolism schools. They teach you about feelings, making the world a better place and how evil conservatives are. Now we gotta go learn something, and we hate learing.
Posted by: CNN Interns at October 06, 2009 04:05 PM (V9SYy)
93 What is this "cause" and "effect" that you proles so often speak of ?
Posted by: N. Pelosiyeva, Member - Politburo, Central Committee at October 06, 2009 04:05 PM (s2bW4)
94 #78 Mephitis
But Airbus operates in a system with a VAT. Therefore, would they not have higher material and finished component (eg engines) prices?
For all that it is a "world market," Boeing and Airbus still must operate under the different tax regimes of the countries where their manufacturing is located.
Posted by: Troll Feeder at October 06, 2009 04:06 PM (9HEGC)
VAT???? Never heard of.............
....wait.....wait....... they make gay wine in VATS.
(pats self on back congratutorily)
Posted by: Charlie Gibson at October 06, 2009 04:06 PM (J5Hcw)
Posted by: Blogluddite at October 06, 2009 04:08 PM (fDWFP)
97 In other words, Nancy is double dipping the savings.
Double dipping is a nasty habit, Nancy.
Posted by: Troll Feeder at October 06, 2009 04:08 PM (9HEGC)
98 let me assume for one moment she is not diagnosably retarded
Wow! Now that is really reaching Ace.
Posted by: UofC Conservative at October 06, 2009 04:10 PM (3FkM/)
99 90 TexasJew Yeah, but the next time, anyone will be watching the mushroom cloud when the container erupts on the freighter from the mid-east docking.
Posted by: hous bin pharteen at October 06, 2009 04:14 PM (Eom7x)
100 Nan just better hope that Obamacare will continue to cover her botox treatments.
'Cause no one wants to see that.
Posted by: wiserbud at October 06, 2009 04:17 PM (MfJT9)
The dems are also going to start paying cardiologists and oncologists less so they can afford to pay more general practice doctors.
So all you have to do is don't get heart disease or cancer. Easy. Right?
Posted by: Dang at October 06, 2009 04:18 PM (6L3mJ)
102 Obama really means "Let me be clear as mud..."
Posted by: Bramble at October 06, 2009 04:18 PM (v/LfH)
103 @78 Minor nit: It's illegal for airframe manufacturers to sell an airframe with engines and has been since the feds broke up United in 1934.
That aside, both BA and ARBN have embedded the costs of employee benefits in the cost of the aircraft. BA may have higher costs, but you're kidding yourself if you think that ARBN doesn't have to pitch in.
Beyond that, BA is a union shop. Health insurance is a negotiated benefit. IAM will not drop that for no reason, even if there's a "free" public option. What is more likely is that IAM will ask for additional private insurance to make up for the lack in the craptacular public option.
Minor trivia: Until about 1998-2000, BA was self-insured on the medical benefits side. With a huge group of employees and retirees, they had a reasonably sized risk pool such that it was cheaper for them to pay claims directly than launder them through an insurance company. Around 1998 or so, the started pushing employees into HMOs.
Posted by: Space Cowboy Maurice at October 06, 2009 04:18 PM (71j4q)
104 Is there a government dental plan in Pelosi's vision?
Valu-Rite and a pair of rusty pliers. Try not to bleed too much.
Posted by: joncelli at October 06, 2009 04:19 PM (RD7QR)
105 Government dental plan? That is hilarious, pretty soon we can all have the same lovely smiles as the British.
Posted by: Mr. Pink at October 06, 2009 04:27 PM (bNABd)
106 Sorry, I'm still too busy weeping for the advent of "violent rhetoric" to reason this shit out.
Posted by: The Chewbacca Defense at October 06, 2009 04:27 PM (YMZjg)
107 You guys should demand that it be called the GST--the Gouge Screw Tax--like in Canada (and, now, Australia).
I'm not in the mood to research it, but the GST of 8% here (about 15% when provincial sales tax is added in, everywhere except Alberta) replaced a hidden 10% manufacturing tax. The Progressive Conservative (i.e. RINO) government claimed it would be revenue neutral and no prices would rise as a result. (It would even go down because it was only 8% and not 10% although it would apply to things that never had the hidden manufacturing tax in the first place.)
Because it was a hidden tax, manufacturers kept it intact and retailers kept their prices the same and just added the GST on top of the existing price so there was no price cut. And the government body to stop this from happening was a joke. It also wasn't revenue neutral, it became the government's single biggest tax source.
I think it's Euro governments single biggest cash cow too, and I read a few years ago that when the Euros need more tax money, they just raise the VAT. Luckily that hasn't happened here, in fact our Conservative Party of Canada P.M., Stephen Harper, has lowered it by 2% but that has seen the MSM and the Left (forgive the redundancy) complain about the drop in tax revenues.
Posted by: andycanuck at October 06, 2009 04:28 PM (2qU2d)
108 Isn't it weird how the looney left went berserk over Bush snooping on your library card, and no one says anything about turning over your health records to the government. Just weird how the libturd mind works.
Posted by: bill-tb at October 06, 2009 04:33 PM (iiiMw)
This is why the VAT is a phenomenally dangerous, pernicious, deadly idea. If Hellcare is "game, set, match" for the liberals and the nanny statists, a VAT will be the championship cup. If we get a VAT, and be certain that it will not replace any other tax, might as well burn the whole place down and start over.
Visit France. Their VAT is close to 20%, charged over and over at each stage of manufacture.
It spells doom for liberty.
Posted by: George Orwell at October 06, 2009 04:37 PM (k8WvF)
110 Nancy is an idiot but her staffers are not. At some point, some mincing flamer in her office put her some knowledge about how Euro goods come with the same embedded health costs through their own VAT. She shrugged it off. Why?
Because she knows her constituents are too stupid, uninformed or just plain dishonest to call her on it. The rest of us are rubes to be plucked.
Posted by: spongeworthy at October 06, 2009 04:37 PM (rplL3)
111 like a bad happen "like a bad habit"
Posted by: willow at October 06, 2009 04:43 PM (GkYyh)
112 The vapid ignorance of the modern American voter is staggering. How do these people get in office? Once upon a time touting higher taxes would get you ruined politically. Now it's all hip!
Imbecilic voters raised in public schools with parents that didn't teach them our founding.
This is going to be a long hard assfucking for the country before people learn the truth, if the country survives at all.
Posted by: Schlippy at October 06, 2009 04:44 PM (xm1A1)
113 We are currently not much better than Europe. Looking at the max personal income tax and the VAT it appears that most countries have a max rate of 40% with an average VAT of 20%.
In the U.S. the max personal income tax rate is 35% but we also have State income taxes that average 7%n in most States and a State and local sales tax. Here that tax is 10% inside the city limits and 8% outside. Based on that I would say we are already paying taxes just as high as Europe. Nanny Nan would put us higher than Europe.
As I said earlier, that is the key. Take over the major industries and raise the taxes though the roof. Poof, instant communism.
Posted by: Vic at October 06, 2009 04:45 PM (CDUiN)
114 I'm really confused. Would the government provide freehealth insuranceto everyone? Or, would everyone be required to purchase health insurance eitherfrom a company or the government? I thought I remember reading that everyone would be required to buy insurance or they would be fined. And Barack says he will not sign a bill that adds one dime to the deficit. So, it must not be free and you must have to buy it. Right?
Posted by: pitythefool at October 06, 2009 04:48 PM (Sg8sX)
115 My God.....When is this women gonna keel over? I can't take it anymore!
Doesn't she want to tax 401K and retirement plans as well?
I don't know how in hell anyone could possibly stand living in SanFransico? If this Lizard represented me,I would move..PERIOD!
Posted by: Jimi at October 06, 2009 04:49 PM (ZBY0f)
116 You bait mouse traps with the promise of a free lunch. Seems that's works for most voters these days, too.
Posted by: Johnathan E. at October 06, 2009 04:50 PM (dQdrY)
117 But then: Whatever shall we make of Barack Obama's oft-repeated claim, "Let me be clear: If you have insurance, you get to keep your insurance"?
OM NOM NOM
Posted by: MSM Memory Hole at October 06, 2009 04:51 PM (saRwI)
118 I'd say Nancy and Barry aren't on the same page. But then, I'm not sure Nancy is on this planet.
Posted by: GarandFan at October 06, 2009 04:53 PM (ZQBnQ)
119 Nancy Pelosi has a point, but if you follow the argument to his logical conclusion you are left with ..
1) a car that sells for less overseas
2) the price of health insurance for the workers making the cars is spread domestically
So the portion of the car workers health insurance that used to be paid overseas is now paid domestically, spread across everybody.
This only makes sense so long as the US government owns the car makers
Posted by: Neo at October 06, 2009 04:55 PM (tE8FB)
120 "Nancy Pelosi?".......Never heard of her!
"VAT?"......Never heard of it!
"NAMBLA?"......Never heard of it!
"SanFransico?"....Never heard of it!
"Testicles?"......Never had any!
Posted by: Chalie Gibson at October 06, 2009 04:55 PM (ZBY0f)
121 You've heard about slowly boiling that frog? You need a VAT to do it.
Posted by: George Orwell at October 06, 2009 04:56 PM (k8WvF)
122 Still, let me assume for one moment she is not diagnosably retarded
You know what happens when you ass-u-me...
Posted by: Andy at October 06, 2009 05:23 PM (QYJUz)
123 Re: 401k taxation: medicare and social security are taken out of 401k contributions. 401k contributions are only exempt from Federal and State taxes.
Honestly, the whole tax system needs to be scrubbed.
Posted by: soulpile at October 06, 2009 05:28 PM (gH+Hj)
124 The Won's Doc photo-op has been staged.Lab coats were handed out and so far 45 "docs" have been shipped in from Doctors for America-a left wing outfit seemingly more interested in politics than patient care.Bloggers are on trying to find out more of this smelly mess.Should be fun and stay tuned.
Posted by: chicocano at October 06, 2009 05:29 PM (bfHvV)
125 Folks, European companies don't pay for healthcare directly, but they have huge payroll taxes and deductions. As an employer of 50, health insurance is factored in as compensation. We look at it as part of salary.
Posted by: Aaron K at October 06, 2009 05:30 PM (aiIUZ)
126 hey this tree over here is looking pretty withered.
Posted by: evil libertarian at October 06, 2009 05:36 PM (7y71/)
127 I see two huge contradictions:
a) American companies are at a disadvantage because they have to pay for health care insurance for employees, and foreign companies don't have to pay for health care insurance for their employees. But health care insurance in foreign countries is paid for by the government, which raises the money to pay for health care through taxes ... on companies and individuals. So the only real difference is whether the citizens pay for the health insurance themselves, or the citizens pay for health insurance through their government (which takes out its administrative costs).
b) The best way to level the playing field between American companies -- who have to pay for health care insurance for their employees -- and foreign companies -- who don't have to pay for health care insurance for their employees (ahem) -- is to increase the amount of money paid by American companies. How's that for logic? We'll level the playing field by taxing the company that's at a disadvantage.
You're welcome, America.
Posted by: MattM at October 06, 2009 06:16 PM (WZWmk)
128 Oh, butyou all are just sooo going to love itwhen you find out later that the VAT will also be applied to home and property sales... ;-)
Posted by: Devil's Advocate General at October 06, 2009 06:36 PM (1kwr2)
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Posted by: jason at October 06, 2009 09:20 PM (CUfC+)
130 The GST in Canada too, Devil's Advocate General, although I think there's a waiver or a tax credit for first-time homebuyers. And yes, it does tick off the realtors and house builders.
Posted by: andycanuck at October 06, 2009 10:12 PM (2qU2d)
131 From what I understand the VAT is not nearly enough to pay for government healthcare.
Damn right. Look at the UK.
They pay Inland Revenue, VAT, AND NHS taxes seperately, and NHS is a fucking piece of shit.
Posted by: cheshirecat at October 06, 2009 10:31 PM (TRhxC)
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Posted by: steve at October 12, 2009 08:48 AM (RjVRZ)
133 Wedding Dresses
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136 The private insurance sector will survive, but they might have to come back to earth again and reduce their profits. Try to get a health insurance quote for a family, when you are not emplyed.... - Today they will ask you so much that you can't afford it!!!!!!!
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