1 If they are not going to fight this war...they need to pull our troops out.  this is such BS

2
This is Obama's plan: subtly hamstring the operation so that it's the public who demand a withdrawal.

3 Fight to win or leave.

4

This was unexpected?  Effing left, including Obama, have never positively valued our soldiers.

Jane Fonda I'm certain, is happy.

F--k 'em all.

5 GGrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

6 It was McChrystal's idea, I believe. There need to be more troops there so that they don't have to rely so heavily on indirect fire. And you're right -- if they're not fighting to win then they should spare the troops from a debacle.

7
Oh, and I knew Robert Gates was a shitheel.

Why else would Obama keep him around if he wasn't on board with Obama's worldview.

8 If there's anything worse than losing Afghanistan, it's our policymakers deciding in advance to lose Afghanistan but then feeding our troops into the meat-grinder anyway as a political fig-leaf to demonstrate "well, we tried" before giving up.

If Obama is not doing everything possible to win the war, he should be impeached on those grounds alone.I know the far left is happy about both more restrictions on how we fight and the greater deaths of American servicemen it will entail, but Obama is now CINC and his first priority is to win any wars we are engaged in.

9 Thanks, Ace. This story has me so angry, I am afraid of what I am going to say.

10 If the audio feeds from this get out it will result in both Gates and McChrystal's resignations.

11

Pulling out is not a viable option, because the aftermath of the pullout would be the formation of a Taliban superstate encompassing both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Unless you are absolutely sure that India will engage in a nuclear war to protect America and Europe from the massive terror attacks that Taliban superstate would cook up, you really don't want that.

And if that further emboldens Iran to get nukes, or if the Taliban superstate gives nukes to al-Qaeda, the Gulf Arab oil states will have no choice but to surrender their sovereignty and control of their oil to Iran.  If you were a Gulf oil sheikh, would you believe Obama's promise to defend you from Iranian missiles?  And would you even care if Obama promised to avenge you with a retaliatory strike -- after you and all your people were dead?

Failure is always an option - but in this instance, it will lead to consequences so dire that they to be avoided at all costs.

12 Better to pull them back to their bases and let the country devolve into chaos and Taliban rule.

I've got just the place...

13 >>>It was McChrystal's idea, I believe.

The military brass has a tendency to take the inputs of the political leadership and endorse them, try to work with them, etc.

Most of the military was convinced Rumsfeld had the wrong strategy in Iraq but most of the brass backed the civilian leadership on that, too, echoing Rumsfeld's decision that no additional troops were needed.

This may or may not be McChrystal. Obviously he's endorsing it, etc., but that's why high ranking brass tends to do. They tend to follow the path set out for them by the civilian leadership. Which may or may not be proper, I don't know.

14 I really don't see the problem here.

http://tinyurl.com/nu8q6q

15 ......and I read I British commando was killed saving a NYT reporter.  His interpreter also died.  The reporter was told not to go there.  So a soldier was killed to save an asshole?

16

I don't mean to be glib, but as Yoda said: Do or do not. There is no try. That may be a bit of silly Space Confuscianism but it's a damn good guideline in fighting a war.

 

Or more eloquently; Shit or get off the pot.

17

7. Oh, and I knew Robert Gates was a shitheel.

Why else would Obama keep him around if he wasn't on board with Obama's worldview.

Agreed.  Gates has the perfect leftist mind set.  He stayed with Obama because he sees himself as the best possible choice, which fits in perfectly with his need for power. 

He's bad news for anyone who longs for the "Old U.S." if Obama succeeds in socializing this country.  He wouldn't think twice about using the military against Americans if it means staying in a position of power, imo.

18 Losing wars and doing so at great cost of life and treasure is very important to the left because that is the only way they can validate their beliefs about the futility of war. After all, if you fight and win, you might just fight again if the need arises- if you get your ass kicked thoroughly, you just might look for another way to resolve disputes - you know, like diplomacy submission.

19 Agreed, fight to win or leave. We don't need soldiers dying for lies.

20

The surge in Iraq was a success because the rules of engagement were changed in addition to extra troops deployed there (and a few other factors tangentially related to US military operations).  Bad ROE will get guys killed every time. I don't know what happened here, but if we have reliable intelligence that there aren't many civilians in an area, we should shell the bejesus out of it. There may simply have been a tragic communications failure here, I don't know.

McCrystal is a smart, tough commander, and I don't believe he would have put dangerous ROE in place that unnecessarily jeopardized troops. He understands how important this fight is, even if the Democrats don't.

21 In other news, anti-American Hollywood dick head is partying with Hugo Chavez.
Why is he there?  Promoting his movie about how great Hugo is.
Oliver Stoned.  You know the one.  Apocalypse Now?
Where was his movie about the little people who were murdered by NVA and VC after we left?  There must have been no room at his mansion to help the boat people.

22

As a former squid, this pisses me off to no end.  Godspeed and semper fi to those lost, and comfort to their families. 

 

I can't put what i realy want to say for fear of the ban hammer.

23 "Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster"

   William Tecumseh Sherman



Why do we forget this stuff?

24
Why do we forget this stuff?

Posted by: kjc at September 09, 2009 01:05 PM (HSJkR)

Because they dont teach it anymore.  This is the result of the Left's strategy to take over education.

25 Bring the troops back.  When the mad mullahs hit us back HARD, send back people wearing pink uniforms and peace patches on their shoulder and see how they do.

26

It seems the old adage of history repeating itself every 40yrs is as right as rain...unfortunatley.

 

27 The proper response in the Afghan context is to hit that village HARD.  By not hitting it, immediately and viciously, we are weakened.

28 As a US Army Vet who served during the Carter years, I can assure you it is all going to get much, much worse before it gets any better.

Bring them all home NOW, we need them here to help with the coming revolution.

29 ..and lets cut to the chase.

Are leftist in favor of choping gays heads off and stoning women who don't make their men happy?  And where's Pelosi's burka?

30

Well, it just goes to show:  the last Democrat to have any idea about how to run a war was FDR; I was about to say, Truman, but Ike had to bail him out of the Korean conflict. 

As for the Left, no wonder they said they "supported"  the Afghan war:  it gave them an opportunity to engineer another defeat for the U.S.  (Forgive the bile, but I lived through the Vietnam era.)

31
In Vietnam, the rules of engagement were very restrictive, and air crews learned quickly that radioing back for permission to fire was a losing proposition.  With a thorough brief on forces in the field that was normally conducted at O-Dark-30, many fire teams simply avoided the permission part and engaged the target.  This was a punishable offense, so you had to be absolutely sure the target was both hot and hostile.  Good times boys and girls.

32  Obammy has no interest in this conflict.  He probably figures that if casualties hover around 30 a month for the next four years, then fine.  Whatever.  Time to come home.

33 To all those people who thought Obama was what this country needed in a time of crisis.....please, next time you want to gamble, go to fucking Las Vegas.

34 Ace,

Publicly they'll endorse their civilian leadership but behind the scenes those people will fight tooth and nail to keep every asset and strategy they've been using for decades.  Rumsfeld was HATED because he wanted the military to go in one direction while the brass had been studying/training/warfighting a totally different strategy.  Try to tell an Armor officer that the army needs to be lighter/faster and he'll give you 30 reasons you're wrong and if you won't listen to him, he'll go to someone who will.

35

No the best thing is Not to give up. The best thing is to fire Gates and any commander who had anything to do with these ROE and go back to “kill them all and ley God sort them out”.

 

36 Im so glad my man is getting out of the USMC in less than 2 months. This is Bullshit.

37

Oliver Stoned.  You know the one.  Apocalypse Now?

That would be "Platoon".

"Apocalypse Now" was Francis Ford Coppola's retelling of Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" set in 1960's Vietnam rather than 1900's Congo, and actually had real artistic merit.

38 The lives of our troops mean nothing to Odumba and the scumbag democRAT party. I hate them more everyday.

39 I can confirm the new ROE is effecting other important areas.  Most easy kills are not happening.

40 21 In other news, anti-American Hollywood dick head is partying with Hugo Chavez.
Why is he there?  Promoting his movie about how great Hugo is.
Oliver Stoned.  You know the one.  Apocalypse Now?
Where was his movie about the little people who were murdered by NVA and VC after we left?  There must have been no room at his mansion to help the boat people.

Posted by: hous bin pharteen at September 09, 2009 01:04 PM (Eom7x)

Oliver Stone did Platoon. Apocalypse Now was Francis Coppola.

41 Ridiculous, no wonder the media forgot that we are still in Afshitstain.....Veit Nam indeed. Fuck this administration.  The lives of our troops of our troops should be a priority, not some camel humping third world raghead.....

42 If you read the original story, it's worse than the quotes make out. The Taliban had been tipped off about the patrol and prepared an ambush, and some of the villagers were helping the Taliban by bringing them ammo during the fight. No air support was available until much later in the fight.

I understand the goal of avoiding civilian casualties, but accepting a military defeat like this is worse.

43 Fight this war with no holds barred.  Fight to win.  #11 is quite right.  I am sorry for the people who get in the way but we cannot sacrifice our soldiers for the fools that don't realize what will happen to them if we pull out.  Oh yeah, bar all the embedded reporters who are trying their best to catch our soldiers in another Haditha farce.  They don't report anything about the war anyway except how many soldiers or civilians attending weddings and funerals are killed.  Except Michael Yon, of course.  And they can get that infomration from central command.  That way they won't hamstring our troops and endanger their lives and consort with the enemy and maybe give them information.

44 Dear President Dipshit,

If you don't have the balls to win, please bring our men and women home now. 

45 i don't understand a ROE that could be anything other than "kill the enemy whenever, wherever & however you find them". 

46

the audio & the original article should get national attn.  and bambi should be blamed.

because as CinC, the fault always lies with him.

47 Last week when we struck that that high jacked fuel convoy and the press described people who were killed while trying to score stolen NATO fuel as "innocent civilians" I knew the war effort in Afcrapistan is all but doomed.

48 My son-in-law is on his way over there now.  Please all, pray for his and all our military's safety.  With CIC like Bambi, there is no hope that he will protect them.

49 I am detecting a pattern.
Hamstring our military with unrealistic ROE and then declare defeat and pull out.
Cripple our industries with burdensome regulations, then declare capitalism a failure and replace it with socialist utopia.

50 Targets are literally in cross-hairs and word comes down not to act.

51

For restrictive ROE, see Viet Nam, Republic of.

Restricted fire zones. No fire zones.  Guys killed because they couldn't get supporting fires, or even permission to engage themselves.

52 Calm down.

Obama has nothing to do with this. He didn't write the ROE. That's all McChrystal. And for the most part, the ROE makes sense. Blowing up the villagers to get on building with Taliban in it isn't going to do much to get any support from the natives.

Second, it doesn't sound so much as the ROE causing the lack of support as much as piss poor planning. The Marines and Soldiers with the ANA and ANP were there to coordinate fire support and air support.

So why didn't they have a fire plan in place, with pre-approved targets? The ROE isn't going to let you fire into the village, but you can sure plan strikes on open areas.

It is always difficult to plan fires well, especially from different units, and most especially from different services. But this sounds like there was no fire planning at all.

53 Classic, "I was for the war before I was against the war" Lying pos that the coward in chief is, it is clear that he never intended to win this war,after all the word victory is verboten.

54 If we're going to fight by Obama's rules of engagement.  GET THE FUCK OUT NOW!

55

With all due respect XBradTC, I think you skipped over this.

U.S. commanders, citing new rules to avoid civilian casualties, rejected repeated calls to unleash artillery rounds at attackers dug into the slopes and tree lines — despite being told repeatedly that they weren't near the village.

56 Freakiing bootlegging sockpuppet

57 Gator, I saw that. And that is what tells me there was piss poor planning ahead of time. If they had planned their fires, they would have cut time off the response. But starting from cold, they have to jump through all the hoops of meeting the ROE.

58 43 One thing is for damn sure.  If Obama announces he is going to pull out of Afghanistan, the Israelis will go full bore on Iran.  They can't afford to wait until Khameini and Ahmadinejad are in the catbird seat, with no strategic threats on either flank of Iran and with a clear path to use proxy war to f*ck up Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank.

59

50 Targets are literally in cross-hairs and word comes down not to act.

You mean, like when the CIA had the drop on Bin Laden during the Clinton Administration and the President couldn't be bothered to give the green light?

Yeah, we all saw how that worked out all right.

60 Not to bring up old men's wars but I went through this sh*t in Viet Nam with Johnson's do-not-bomb list that he an Mcnamara dreamed up to be nice guys.  It broke our hearts to see the ships unloading anti air missles in Hiaphong harbor that we could not go after because they were Russian.  I hate to think of how many airmen died because of Johnson's humanitarian concerns.  Obama and Gates are on the same track.  World press is more important than our mens lives.

61 If we're going to actually fight to win this war, collateral damage is going to happen. That's why war is so horrible.  It's obvious that you want to do what you can to avoid civilian deaths, but you don't employ ROE's that not only jeopardize the lives of our precious soldiers, but also jeopardize their ability to ultimately win the war so the collateral damage can finally end.  Fight the war to win or get the fuck out of there!  

62 World press is more important than our mens lives.

Posted by: Inspectorudy at September 09, 2009 02:16 PM (wkCYX)

Even by republican presidents. Hence, no extended modern war is winnable. We taught the world this lesson with Vietnam. They learned, if we didn't. Unless we put the western press up against the wall, and soon, these wars are just the same kind of theater as DC, just more bloody.

63

Doesn't anyone seem to be bothered by the fact that 7 years into a war, no one, including the President, Defense Sec, Joint Chiefs, and Centcom General seem to have a clue as to what "victory" looks like?

Is it getting Osama Bin Laden? He is still somewhere laughing his ass off.

Is it defeating the Taliban?  They left A-stan, and are now based in our ally, Pakistan.

Establishing a democractic gov't? The gov't there is as corrupt as in Iran.

"fight to win?" Great. Now tell us what win means, and we can get behind it.

This isn't a left-right issue- this is a "we went to war without a clear idea of how to end it" issue.

64 I read the entire account, and the reporter seemed confused.

According to his account, there were teams setting up OPs (Observation Posts) on either side of the defile in which the village was located. He says their specific purpose was to call for fire/air support, so I imagine they had been setting up TRPs (Target Reference Points - preplanned artillery targets) in advance.

The main body went up the center and got ambushed at 5:30 a.m.. At 6:05 a.m., their request for smoke rounds to screen their retreat was denied because of a lack of smoke rounds. HOWEVER, the FDC (Fire Direction Center) did approve and fire WP (white phosporous) to screen their pullout - not exactly a move intended to avoid civilian casualties, if that was their concern.

According to the reporter, by 7:10 a.m., there were multiple helicopters "prowling" the valley, firing on Taliban positions, and the medevac birds were there.

I am not prepared to blast the chain of command on this one. When you're taking fire, you want air and arty RIGHT NOW, but is this the kind of mission where you can expect to have helicopters on station during the mission?

None of this is to be construed as agreeing with the denial of the request for HE (High Explosive) rounds. I think the village should have been leveled.

I think ALL of their villages should be leveled. Put the "friendlies" on boats in the Arabian Gulf. Then sink the boats. Make sure Iran gets a good look. Kill everything else human in country. Turn into mountain sheep hunting preserve.

Vote Jeff in 2012.

65 Vote Jeff in 2012.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff, Shinebox Retrieval Support Team at September 09, 2009 02:43 PM (xGIqT)

I'll work on your campaign if I can be Imperial Executioner.

66 but as Yoda said: Do or do not. There is no try.

I think Mr. Miyagi has something wise to say about this, as well: "Daniel-san, must talk. Man walk on road. Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk down middle, sooner or later, get squished just like grape. Same here. You karate do "yes," or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so," squish just like grape. Understand?"

67 Johnathan,

are you sure? Because Titty Bar Manager is still open.

ALSO:

on further reading, the reporter states that he was given "assurances that air cover would be five minutes away."

I dunno about that - was that stated in the Op Order? So far, theater and local commanders have shown every willingness to support the grunts on the ground. I would like to see an investigation, but I'm definitely starting from the presumption of innocence.

I'd expect there to be mass resignations/public griping/refusing illegal orders if it were the case that O'Bumbles just decided everyone would have to wear oven mittens in combat.

68 i don't understand a ROE that could be anything other than "kill the enemy whenever, wherever & however you find them".

An alternate would be the motto of the 11th Cavalry Regiment: "Find the bastards and pile on".

69 are you sure? Because Titty Bar Manager is still open.

**raises hand**

70

are you sure? Because Titty Bar Manager is still open.

If you were talking Brothel Quality Assurance Tsar, maybe.

71 XTBradC,

I am sure they had a fire plan, I cannot imagine a unit going anywhere in that part of A-stan without one.  I am also sure that somewhere above them, someone decided to check with someone else, etc given the recent f---up by the Krauts.  Those layers of extra approval seeking/ass-covering got men killed.

72 Jean, I'm sure they SHOULD have had a fire plan. But I'm hearing a lot of stories of pretty crappy planning. It sounds like a lot of missions are being run on the "hey, let's go run down to village X" and see what's up" principle.

73

I don't believe the restrictive ROEs have anything to do with trying to win hearts and minds among the Afghans. If the Afghans are convinced that we won't hesitate to blow them to hell, they are more likely to come over to our side, not less. Their tendency is to see compassion, especially from an outsider, as weakness.  

The change in ROEs is purely for the benefit of the western press, and DC cocktail parties. The consequences of a pullout from Afghanistan likely won't be felt for years, but when it comes we'll all get it good and hard.

74 If you were an Afghani tribal leader, would you trust America not to pull out and leave you to the wolves? Why would they trust us with a dem controlled government?

75 Bring them all home NOW, we need them here to help with the coming revolution.

I suspect that those ROE will be, how shall we say? a tad more aggressive. Leave none alive?

76 Wow, that is unbelievably sad.  God bless those four Marine.  Prayers for their loved ones.

77

74 -- Interesting riff on this in regards to the situation with the tankers: the local Afghan authorities and representatives from the Afghan gov't. were of the opinion that the casualties did not involve "innocent civilians" and that the airstrike was both justified and good; they're request was that the ISAF (??? I think I've got my acronym correct) forces should start acting in a more proactive, aka. aggressive fashion (as per comment found at the Atlantic review).  I've heard similar things before, coming from Iraq not so long ago.

This is a case of trying to keep the journalists and their lefty sychophants appeased and off the military's back -- what they don't realize is that those folks are smelling blood (literally) in the water and thus will not stand down...and they have the support of this administration, imho.

We really can't pull out without smashing the Taliban -- the consequences, again imho, are just too dire -- but we cannot allow this sort of thing to happen either.  The Bundeswehr is a good example of what happens when a military telegraphs its weakeness long enough -- if they think they can beat us then they are going to keep trying (and right now, it looks like they are succeeding). 

I could say what I really think, but it would likely get me banned.

78 Inside the x-ring, Ace. Right on the mark.

79

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80 XBradTC

Wasn't it essentially a training mission, "led" by the Afghans with a USMC/US Army training platoon in support with a reporter in tow, planned at least a day in advance.  I's and T's get dotted on missions like that - doesn't sound like a simple patrol of any sort. They were pretty deep in bandit country for grab'n go missions.

Regardless of how well planned your fires are and the contingency triggers for them spelled out; somebody has to release the tubes.  My buds are telling me the word is "organic support" or carry more mortar rounds, depending if your speaking officer or NCO.

81 I saw this article this morning's paper and immediately mailed dear Harry a letter, on my Pledge of Allegiance paper, that stated basically are you happy that you now have an administration that supports your position that "the war is lost" and four young Americans died due to your lack of support.  Quit coddling the enemy and killing Americans so your dream comes true.  Bring them home or support them to the fullest.  

I hadn't even seen this blog, just the article in today's paper.  I could have written this blog, I'm glad I don't have to now.

Then I enclosed the article from the Miami Herald and highlighted "new rules to avoid civilian casualties, rejected repeated calls ..." and underlined "rejected" from the following article:  http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/AP/story/1223813.html

So very glad I'm not alone in my feelings that we're either in it to win or we need to get out of there and let them fend for themselves.  No American's life is worth the sacrifice if it is simply for political folly of our Congress to play games with.

82 This seriously pisses me off.

83 Brad what it sounds like to me is they were given a mission, told there was no fire plan for the box and had to get on with the job. You don't get to pick which ones you take.
I'm sure a Soldier would do the same as these Marines did given their choices.
No offense, but I've seen no evidence that this was due to poor planning on the unit's part, and it seems pretty shitty to pile on with 4 of their Marines dead.
Maybe we'll find out different later. I've been wrong before, but I give the fuckers at the sharp end the benefit of the doubt.
It wouldn't be the first time we've seen overreaction to how higher command's wishes are perceived.

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87 I am a mom of one of those 13 Marines.....too poor planning, because of too much area, no support when asked for.  What are we to do?  We need help NOW.....  They either need to man up or get out...What is the objective here anymore? 

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Political decisions ordering field commanders in the military are for the purpose of losing lives - and the military effort. It worked in VietNam.And, it will allow O to lose any effort against terrrists and say, "We tried.".

Only field commanders should make field decisions. If poiticians make those decisions then everyone will know they are for the wrong purpose. Losing.

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