1 Saucy Poland, dressing like a slut.

They were begging for it.

2 sorry I made such trouble

3 I enjoyed hosting those candle-light vigils. They were such peaceful, loving affairs. Like Woodstock in lederhosen.

4 Shame about Buchanan. When he gets on an "America First" rant I want to write his name in for President. Then he begins to re-write WWII history, splitting hairs to the unaware over 'death camps' and 'work camps' and I want to smack him silly.

5

So Pat's point  is that this whole concentration camp thing was something that was foisted upon Hitler....he was forced to kill 6+ million because of some lame  meetings  with  officials  bordering Germany... in essence they made him do this crazy , evil, diabolical, inhumane , gestapo stuff? MSNBC oh no .

Wow.

 

 

6 Dum Dum has said that Buchanan is his type of conservative; that tells you all you need to know.

7 Wow! What'd'ya'know! Spank my umrella and call me Ewa Brown! I mean, what's next? Finding out Ron Paul is a closet Nazi? Discovering Obama hates teh Whitey? WHAT HAS THE WORLD COME TO???!!!!!

8

Balls, that is what Hitler and Ted Kennedy have in common

 

They both have Satan's balls shoved up their collective ass.......

9 But where is the evidence that Adolf Hitler, whose victims as of March 1939 were a fraction of Gen. Pinochet's, or Fidel Castro's, was out to conquer the world?

Buchanan obviously never read Mein Kampf, eh?

Time to go to the farm, Pat.  And stay there.

10

So Pat's point  is that this whole concentration camp thing was something that was foisted upon Hitler....he was forced to kill 6+ million because of some lame  meetings  with  officials  bordering Germany... in essence they made him do this crazy , evil, diabolical, inhumane , gestapo stuff? MSNBC oh no .

Wow.

Posted by: ford at September 02, 2009 06:51 PM (Ki7fm)

It's true! All I really wanted to do was work them as slaves till they dropped dead.

11

Buchanan obviously never read Mein Kampf, eh?

Time to go to the farm, Pat.  And stay there.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at September 02, 2009 06:53 PM (qoAMF)

How could he read it? Herr Patsy keeps it in his panties at all times. Also, 3rd Reich volk songs helps him overcome his chronic impotence.

12 And the worst part?

EVERY appearance this historical illiterate makes will be captioned with "Conservative Columnist."

Time for the first of the night.  I believe Glenfiddich is fitting for a cloudy night.

13

I'm not so sure Satan wouldn't have better taste than to do that.

Patty is a good example of how, if you go far enough right and/or far enough left you wind up at the same spot -- totalitarianism.

 

14

Yes, Pat.  And the Jews forced the Germans to slaughter them by the millions by just being so financial, and shit.  I mean, those Jews just threw themselves at those Zyklon B tablets and into the pits where somehow, German bullets found the backs of their skulls.

Shocking what the evil Jews and Poles and Brits and French and Russians could force the poor, innocent, pacific Germans into.  I mean, really?  Everyone knew that they were just pushovers, and would never fight.  Mr. Burns said it best:  ""Eww! The Germans are mad at me! I'm so scared! EWW, the GERMANS!" (seriously): "Uh-oh, the Germans are coming to get me...." !"

If even Mr. Burns knows the Germans were pussycats, then they MUST have been forced into all those distasteful things they had to do.  Right, Pat?

15

Ol' Pat the Revisionist strikes again.

But where is the evidence that Adolf Hitler, whose victims as of March 1939 were a fraction of Gen. Pinochet's, or Fidel Castro's, was out to conquer the world?

Every swinging dick in Europe knew that Hitler was on a war footing; it wasn't exactly a secret that Germany was arming itself and that Hitler had expansionist ambitions. 

16 Been done with him since, oh, 1988.

17 Pat Buchanan: The buttock that walked like a man.

18 functional, smunctional.  he is an anti-semite, period. 

19 In addition, Pat might want to check on the whole Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Treaty.

If World War II were CSI: Miami, Caruso would be putting the glasses on with that one.

The man is barking insane and dangerously stupid.

20

"But where is the evidence that Adolf Hitler, whose victims as of March 1939 were a fraction of Gen. Pinochet's, or Fidel Castro's, was out to conquer the world?"

It's been 15 years since I read Gerhard Weinberg's A World at War, and I have forgotten his source material that led him to his conclusions, but basically he laid out that Hitler actually had such a plan, and that one reason why he unilaterally declared war on the United States on December 15, 1941 (if memory serves for the date) was that he figured he was going to get around to it eventually, and the US support for Britain via Lend-Lease and Neutrality Patrols was something he could no longer tolerate.

Obviously, a big mistake on his part, since I think he would have been better served not declaring war, instead tolerating the tacit belligerance of the United States as he took care of his ill-considered invasion of Russia (if able), because I doubt FDR would have been able to get a revenge-focused USA to hold-up rolling over the Japanese for a few years in order to fight the bigger threat.

21 During the Age of Reagan (Peace Be Upon Him) Pat made same good points concerning communism and conservatism... but now he's gone off the rails so bad you can't even see his caboose... for every now and then he has an urge to write a column or a book about poor lil ol' misunderstood Hitler, if we had just left him alone, peace and love and understanding would have just burst out...

And *that's* why he's MSNBC's favorite house conservative on those panel shows, so they can show the rest of the country just how nutty those Jew-hating knuckle-dragging conservatives really are...

22 I saw this last night here. I think she summed it up pretty well when she said that Buchanan should have to answer to Hitler's victims in the afterlife.

23

Hitler had a program, read Mein Kampf. He needed more room,that is more land, for the German people. Poland was it. Besides, a notable part German territory was taken away from Germany after WWII, and was part of the new Poland. Hitler was going to take it no matter what. The same corralation can be said about Obama. He clearly stated what he is going to do if he was elected President. People are now in a howling frenzy, because he is going to do what he said. Why does History always repeat itself!

24 I blame Richard Jewell.

25

Captain Hate 6, and certain of the commenters here, as well.

flenser, you wanna say something ?

26 Oh, and Danzig was just a little, inconsequential city...(dear, sweet Jesus on a stick)

27 Was Danzig worth a war? Unlike the 7 million Hong Kongese whom the British surrendered to Beijing, who didn't want to go, the Danzigers were clamoring to return to Germany.

Jayzis Fookin' Christmas, maybe Pat and Gunter Grass ought to team up and write the definitive revisionist history on WW2.  Not that they haven't tried on their own already, both strangely fixated on Danzig.

28

You gotta understand, Jews brought it on themselves. They should have turned the other cheek, like Ghandi said.

The Kristallnacht pogrom in 1938 was in retaliation for the foreign Jewish boycott of German goods. That boycott was of corse totally unjustified, because the Nuremberg Laws of 1935 were really not about Jews, they were...uh....um.....well, they were........Hey Pat, help me out here!

29 The Jews, Poles, Czechs, Brits, Frogs, all of them, I mean all of them, asked for it. Dirty Basterds! They made Hitler do it! Wonder....is Uncle Pat as tolerant of  the black kids who carried televisions away from fire bombed appliance stores who claim that "poverty made me do it"?

30
I hate Pat for this reason and for having what sounds like a quart of spit in his fucking mouth when he talks.  Shit man,  get a fucking spit sink or something!  Or swallow,  you salivating fuck!  Does he wear a fucking neck tie made out of bacon?  Anyway,  I fucking hate the guy.

31 His secret love affair with Hitler continues...

32 Somehow only the west has free will; everyone else is an automaton driven by geo-political forces.

This is yet another thing that the paleo "right" has in common with the Left.  When searching for a list of root causes, they only go back so far as they can blame America (or the West or capitalism or whomever).

On top of it all, it's condescending to the "victims".  They treat them like mere animals without intellect.

33

Well, look, Buchanan's half right.  The WWI settlement really was crushingly punitive toward Germany, it really did split formerly German citizens into other nations against their wishes, and this did contribute to Germany's desire to re-arm and reclaim territory.

Now, none of that implies that Hitler personally was a good-faith actor.  This is where Buchanan goes off the rails.  The west *did* make almost every effort to accomodate Hitler, for nothing.  I think once he was firmly in power it was all over but the fighting and dying. 

But sane, non-Hitler apologist historians have wondered if Hitler would have come to power, or if WWII would have happened at all without the WWI settlement.  A desire to avoid repeating those mistakes informed the Marshall Plan, especially as applied to West Germany.  Some of Buchanan's points wouldn't be news at all, much less contreversial, if Americans were more historically literate.

34 Well, look, Buchanan's half right.

No, he is not.  No, he is not.  No, he is not.  No, he is not.

Nothing in that screed is based on a critique of Versailles.  If one were to go about redrawing the map of Europe in 1919 or 1939 based on linguistic lines, first you would have a nervous breakdown from the tediousness of the exercise and second, good luck on having everyone happy.  Hitler was a repugnant, evil fucking warmonger and Pat Buchanan is his apologist.  P.E.R.I.O.D.

35

But sane, non-Hitler apologist historians have wondered if Hitler would have come to power, or if WWII would have happened at all without the WWI settlement.  A desire to avoid repeating those mistakes informed the Marshall Plan, especially as applied to West Germany.  Some of Buchanan's points wouldn't be news at all, much less contreversial, if Americans were more historically literate.

One thing I always wondered was why the Soviet Union essentially got a free pass for invading the other half of Poland and the spending the next two years selling Nazi Germany all the petrol they wanted. The JU-88s flying over London during the blitz of 1940 were fueled with Soviet gas.

36 If he was going to break his syncronized swimming with anti-semites, he would have done it already.

37 "The WWI settlement really was crushingly punitive toward Germany, it really did split formerly German citizens into other nations against their wishes, and this did contribute to Germany's desire to re-arm and reclaim territory."

False. Most territorial changes in the East were the result of plebecites.

Also, considering Germany's own plans for peace if it had won WWI, calling Versailles "punitive" is asinine. The supposed "harsh nature" of Versailles was a load of propaganda dumped on the West by German generals/politicans after WWII in an attempt to justify their complicity within the regieme.

38

#33 No, Buchanan isn't half right. He isn't even a quarter right.

Versaiiles was punitive, but even before Hitler was elected the Germans were defaulting, and France and other countries had decided not to pursue pcollection. It was not crushing: that's a myth. It was VIEWED as crushing by Germans, but was by contemporary standards  leniant.

Furthermore, the Sudetanland Germans (for instance) were in a minority in the areas annexed, and he went after them before he went for danzig.

Buchanan is Glossiphonid, full stop.  

39 Pat Buchanan never met an accused Nazi concentration camp he didn't defend. Hell, he's made a hobby of it. And of course, he's dabbled in historical revisionism, incredibly blaming the Democracies for somehow driving Hitler into war.

Is it any wonder Pat feels at home with the Fascists on MSNBC? After all, the truly liberal (i.e., pro-liberty) values of Fox News are repugnant to Old Pat.

40 Oh and perhaps I should have specified Germany's peace aims in the event it had won. In the West there were several proposals that included stripping France of all of her colonies and the complete annexation of Belgium.

In the East no speculation was needed. In the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, Germany annexed nearly a quarter of Russia's population and industry.

That German "intellectuals" would have the temerity to whine about the Allied peace imposed a year later beggars belief.

41

Well, look, Buchanan's half right.  The WWI settlement really was crushingly punitive toward Germany, it really did split formerly German citizens into other nations against their wishes, and this did contribute to Germany's desire to re-arm and reclaim territory.

Bullshit. Germany started a war. Germany lost a war. Instead of being occupied, Germany got off easy and was required to pay a "compensation" - a tribute really. That's pretty damn acceptable in all wars since 5769 BC. 

The problem started when Wilson and the Euroweenies did not come with a feasible plan on how to enforce Versailles. Absolutely none. How the hell did they plan to enforce the demilitarization of Germany?

42 Some of Buchanan's points wouldn't be news at all, much less contreversial, if Americans were more historically literate.

I disagree.  It isn't the individual points that are controversial, or at least not all of them, it is the incoherent whole that Buchanan strings them into that is highly offensive.

43 One thing I always wondered was why the Soviet Union essentially got a free pass for invading the other half of Poland and the spending the next two years selling Nazi Germany all the petrol they wanted. The JU-88s flying over London during the blitz of 1940 were fueled with Soviet gas.

Yes, that's always bothered me as well. And don't forget about the Nov. 1939 Soviet invasion of Finland. The Soviet Union was hardly the innocent victim of WWII that they make themselves out to be.

44 Just a coincidence that Hitler already had all those tanks and bombers on hand, I mean, in case Poland didn't want to negotiate...

45 "One thing I always wondered was why the Soviet Union essentially got a free pass for invading the other half of Poland and the spending the next two years selling Nazi Germany all the petrol they wanted."

Answer:

1) Subsequent events.

2) Most people don't know shit about history and thus their ignorance serves as a "pass."

46 There is a train of thought that conjectures that is was excessive leniency and avoidance of firm, direct action against Hitler at the very beginnings of his chancellorship that helped create WWII -- in other words "peace in our time" helped to create the problem. If some country (read here: France, Britain, or America) had put their foot/feet down hard early on it could have been avoided or at least mitigated somewhat.

47 And yes, the Soviet Union was the proverbial load of shit that came out smelling like a rose in regards to WWII (amoung other instances).

48

19 In addition, Pat might want to check on the whole Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Treaty.

__________________________________________________

There was a lot of intrique wrapped in all of the German-Soviet diplomatic interaction.  This was covered quite well in the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.  Has been about 20 years since I read it. 

 

49 Pat Buchanan is filth, he's a fascist in the truest sense of the word. He'd be goose stepping along next to the rest in Germany if he was there 70 years ago.

50 No, he is not.  No, he is not.  No, he is not.  No, he is not.

Absolutely.  Hitler would have found something to demagogue.  Just because he exploited irrational national resentment, doesn't mean avoiding it would have avoided the exploitation.

51 Mætenloch, I think it's Joe Sobran you're thinking of whom Buckley called an anti-semite (or said he could no longer defend him of the charge or something like that.)

52

Pat Buchanan is what I call a functional anti-Semite:

Because he thinks Poland was the cause of WWII? That makes so much sense.

Of course Buchanan is wrong, The cause of WWII was the Treaty of Versailles, which is why all serious historians consider WWII to be simply the continuation of WWI.

53 Pat Buchanan needs to be told to STFU and GO AWAY!

54 #46  Unknown jane  Up until WWII, the US was very much isolationist. FDR had to do some underhanded things to keep Great Britton in the war. Most Americans did not want anything to do with the European war. A lot of Americans openly admired Hitler in the US . Lindbergh was one who comes to mind. The US would not have stepped in to stop Hitler from 1935 to 1941. Our main focus was on Japan.

55 And by "serious historians" i mean Neo-Nazi holocaust-denying historians who are also 100% homosexual certified. Btw, did anyone see me Swastika shaped dildo?

56

@27: Pat and Gunter Grass ought to team up and write the definitive revisionist history on WW2.

 ------------------

I'm sure he could get some help from Putin, who recently blamed Britain for forcing Russia into the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

I also understand that Russian media has been claiming that Poland was secretly working with Hitler to invade Russia, which is why Russia needed to invade them first.

57 51 Mætenloch, I think it's Joe Sobran you're thinking of whom Buckley called an anti-semite (or said he could no longer defend him of the charge or something like that.)

Buckley did call Sobran an anti-Semite and kick him out of NR, but he also called out Buchanan in his 1991 essay "In Search of Anti-Semitism" where he wrote, "“I find it impossible to defend Pat Buchanan against the charge that what he did and said during the period under examination amounted to anti-Semitism, whatever it was that drove him to say and do it.”

58 Here here, found it. Here i come, Poland!

59 55 And by "serious historians" i mean Neo-Nazi holocaust-denying historians who are also 100% homosexual certified. Btw, did anyone see me Swastika shaped dildo?

Posted by: flenser at September 02, 2009 07:48 PM (pQcr+)

Thank you for your insightful and well reasoned critique. BTW, if the Treaty of Versailles was such a swell idea, why was it ripped up and forgotten about in 1945?

60

Thank you for your insightful and well reasoned critique. BTW, if the Treaty of Versailles was such a swell idea, why was it ripped up and forgotten about in 1945?

Posted by: Jim in San Diego at September 02, 2009 07:54 PM (H7Rlw)

It may have had something to do with OCCUPATION and ACTUAL DEMILITARIZATION instead of worthless treaties which Hitler wiped his ass with.

61 54 -- yes, I know.  I am merely bringing up a school of thought which makes the claim that our isolationism (plus France and Britain's own reluctance to deal decisively with Hitler) at the very least excerbated the following events.

62 This is rediculous, Hitler worked his ass off to be the most evil, cruel human in the history of the world and Pat Buchanon is trying to ruin his reputation.

63 That's what condenders usually do.

64

It may have had something to do with OCCUPATION and ACTUAL DEMILITARIZATION instead of worthless treaties which Hitler wiped his ass with.

Posted by: Jack off in Reichstag at September 02, 2009 07:59 PM (pQcr+)

I think it had more to do with the bling. The Treaty of Versailles was all about the money. Occupation and demilitarization were things France and England didn't really care about, and that's why they were ignored. The economic sanctions and the reparations were all they cared about.

65

Maybe he is and maybe he isn't but in any case I'm done with Buchanan.

Welcome to the party. You're about 17.5 years late.

66

Uh, Flenser?

Of course Buchanan is wrong, The cause of WWII was the Treaty of Versailles,

That's wrong, even though this:

which is why all serious historians consider WWII to be simply the continuation of WWI.

is right. You need to do some serious reading, 'cause NO serious historian considers the Treaty of Versailles to be "the cause of WWII". That's patheically naive reductive bullshit, nonsense and horsecrap. Start with Niall Ferguson's works.  

67 BTW, if the Treaty of Versailles was such a swell idea, why was it ripped up and forgotten about in 1945?

Posted by: Jim in San Diego at September 02, 2009 07:54 PM (H7Rlw)

For starters, Germany didn't exist anymore as a unified country.

It's not that Versailles was a particularly good treaty... it's just that the Germans really TRULY hated the fact they lost the war. They can point fingers at Versaille (a treaty far kinder to Germany than Germany would have imposed on Britain, France, and - did, actually - Russia). It's just that at the end of the day, the German just couldn't cope with the fact their "superiority" wasn't enough to defeat non-Krauts. Make no mistake: Hitler didn't invent the concept of "German Superiority," nor did he have to convince the Germans that it was true. The German culture had stewed in German racism for centuries.

68 Also, while the Bund and its fellow travellers were a part of the isolationist, non-interference sentiment within the U.S. at that time, the influence of communist/socialist individuals, groups, and their sympathizers in keeping us from making a firm stand against Hitler -- at least prior to his invasion of the Soviet Union.  This was something that operated, I believe, not just in America however.

69

I think it had more to do with the bling. The Treaty of Versailles was all about the money. Occupation and demilitarization were things France and England didn't really care about, and that's why they were ignored. The economic sanctions and the reparations were all they cared about.

Posted by: Jim in San Diego at September 02, 2009 08:05 PM (H7Rlw)

Taking losing side's money as a tribute is fine by any moral standard. Germany had to be occupied, and Versailles had to be implemented via viable system of...well... implementation. That's why NATO has real power and the UN is a do-nothing bitch. NATO can make you do stuff.

70 Buchanan's staunch branch of Catholicism (think Mel Gibson) provides a foundation for his rabid anti-Semitism and hatred of the Jewish people.  Thankfully, not all Catholics hold this view.  But there are many, who like Buchanan, are not at all hesitant to wrap this psuedo-justifiable contempt for Jesus' "murderers" and do so with passion (no pun intended).  This proved to be a useful tool by Hitler to feed a sentiment of contempt toward Jews that led to the Holocaust; the same sentiment which is again on the rise in Europe.

71

 You need to do some serious reading, 'cause NO serious historian considers the Treaty of Versailles to be "the cause of WWII". That's patheically naive reductive bullshit, nonsense and horsecrap. Start with Niall Ferguson's works.  

 

Of  all the people you could have picked, you had to pick the guy who argued it would have been a good thing if Germany had won WWI. Even Buchanan never did that.

72 Marshall Foch wanted to continue the war and utterly crush all resistance before occupying all of Germany.He wanted to do it because he predicted without such a demonstration the Germans would do what they ended up doing,denying they lost the war and starting another with 20 years or so.Nobody had the will however to do what Foch wanted,they thought a strong enough treaty would be just as effective and would preclude further fighting and dying.The very fact that the Germans accepted such harsh terms proves how false later claims of the "stab in the back"were.They were in fact utterly beaten but only the Rhineland was occupied and the rest of Germany could rationalize the defeat as being caused only by traitors.When Hitler marched into the Rhinland he was totally bluffing and could easily have been crushed(which probably would have been the end of his political life).The French were willing to move but only with British help which was not forthcoming as the Brits were dead set on appeasement than and later.

73

Buchanan's staunch branch of Catholicism (think Mel Gibson) provides a foundation for his rabid anti-Semitism and hatred of the Jewish people. 

Technically, you're a loon. Based on your comments I could write about your rabid anti-Catholicism and hatred of the Catholic people.

74 70 Don't drag the Church into this.

75

I'm sure he could get some help from Putin, who recently blamed Britain for forcing Russia into the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

I also understand that Russian media has been claiming that Poland was secretly working with Hitler to invade Russia, which is why Russia needed to invade them first.

Posted by: Anachronda at September 02, 2009 07:50 PM (1OYcp)

Blaming Britain for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is some serious derangement.  Almost as deranged as the goddamn commies here being pro-Germany after it was signed; that worked well.  Does anybody that blames that Georgian gimp Stalin for anything ever not end up dismembered with the pieces tossed in Lake Baikal?

The commies have had a major hardon for the Poles way before Katyn.

76 I wish the allies had given just enough help to Stalin to insure that the Soviets were crushed but occupied the Nazis sufficiently for us to complete our preperations.I loathe having to share victory with such an "allie"who was at best only slightly better than the Nazis.

77

This proved to be a useful tool by Hitler to feed a sentiment of contempt toward Jews that led to the Holocaust

Yes, Germany being such a staunch Catholic country and all. This topic brings the crazies out of the woodwork.

78 Maybe he is and maybe he isn't but in any case I'm done with Buchanan.

Welcome to the party. You're about 17.5 years late.

Well I've never been a fan of Buchanan and have always disagreed with his WWII revisionism. But his mask has finally slipped - he's now in David Duke territory and unfit for polite society.

79

Technically, you're a loon. Based on your comments I could write about your rabid anti-Catholicism and hatred of the Catholic people.

Posted by: flenser at September 02, 2009 08:22 PM (rTG0F)

Why? You are a Neo-Nazi, so you should see it as a compliment to be called Jew hater.

80

he's now in David Duke territory and unfit for polite society.

What exactly has he said in this piece that draws that reaction? He's merely repeated an argument he has made before - that WWII was a complete disaster for Europe, for Britain, and for Western civ in general, and ought to have been avoided at all costs. People can agree or disagree on that, but .. David Duke?

81

Flenser, don't be an idiot. Ferguson is no anti-Semite, Buchanen is. Ferguson (who, unlike you, is a serious historian)  did argue that Europe would have been more economically prosperous if Germany had won WW1, which is actually an intelligent and informed argument, even if it is contentious. You, on the other hand, are making a seriously naive and silly reductive argument that WWI was caused by Versialle, and dressing it up in pseudo-authoritative style.

Here's a clue for you: no serious historian will argue that something as massive and complicated as WWII has one cause. That's just wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong and the fact that all you could come back with is a lame nonsequitor about Ferguson demonstrates your underlying ignorance.

Just STFU here, m'kay?

 

 

82

If anyone here reading this thread wants to read what mainstream historians really think of the Treaty of Versailles, you can read this paper written by Marc Trachtenberg a Professor at UCLA.

This is a Microsoft Word Document linked from his faculty website hosted by UCLA.edu

You can open it and read it or save it to read later. 

http://tiny.cc/8R6vh

With that said, I declare myself "teh thread WINNER" and I wish everyone a wonderful and NAZI-free afternoon.

 

83 [non lace wig spam removed]

84

You are a Neo-Nazi

Conservatives are the opposite of Nazis, neo or othewise, Mr Sockpuppet.

so you should see it as a compliment to be called Jew hater

a) I don't give a rats ass if some dickless wonder on the internet wants to call me a neo-Nazi, a Jew hater, a racist, an evil monger, a tea bagger, or anything else. I do consider it a compliment of sorts if said dickless wonders decide they dislike me though.

b)  the idiot in question did not call me a Jew hater, he called Catholics Jew haters and made the nutty assertion that Catholic influence was used by atheist Hitler in Protestant Germany to fan the flames of the Holocast.

c) as shocking as this may seem to some people, WWII had nothing to do with Jews. They were innocent bystanders who got caught up in it. If you want to talk WWII, talk WWII. 

 

85

I agree that WWII was probably a continuation of WWI (as the Cold War was merely a branching off from WWII) and was disasterous to Europe and western civilization (actually, one could argue that western civilization, at its root in Europe was viewing the handwriting of its demise on the wall by 1914, and by 1918 was pretty much in a state of decline, at least as a political power).  That much I can agree with.

However, Buchanan (and those who think like him) is completely wrong to suppose that appeasement to Hitler would have avoided or mitigated any further problems with him -- quite the opposite imho, it encouraged him.  He is horridly, wickedly wrong in regards to his claims of Hitler's "peaceful intentions" towards neighboring countries and his reluctance to engage in genocide (dear God, it must take an almost wilful stupidity).  I also believe the isolationist school is woefully archaic: the last time America even had some modicum of chance at remaining isolationist was during WWI (and thanks to powers outside of our borders, from many different sides, we were helped along in our choice to intervene in that one, to the result of which we are where we are today -- perhaps a bittersweet thing).

86

Flenser, don't be an idiot. Ferguson is no anti-Semite, Buchanen is.

The sort of drooling moron who says things like that is telling me "don't be an idiot". The quality of Fergusons arguments on history do not hinge on his being an anti-Semite or not.

 

Ferguson (who, unlike you, is a serious historian)  did argue that Europe would have been more economically prosperous if Germany had won WW1, which is actually an intelligent and informed argument

Because some dumb fuck who says things like "STFU here, m'kay" says so?

 

You, on the other hand, are making a seriously naive and silly reductive argument that WWI was caused by Versialle, and dressing it up in pseudo-authoritative style.

 

Whiile your appeal to the wisdom of a man who thinks it would have been better if Germany won WWI is supposed to demonstrate your thoughtfulness and sagacity, I suppose. Or is it your knack for ad hominems?

 

87 If Hitler wanted the world, why did he not build strategic bombers, instead of two-engine Dorniers and Heinkels that could not even reach Britain from Germany?

I don't know, maybe because Hitler was bat-shit insane?

88 77 "This proved to be a useful tool by Hitler to feed a sentiment of contempt toward Jews that led to the Holocaust."

Yes, Germany being such a staunch Catholic country and all. This topic brings the crazies out of the woodwork.

Heh. Flenser, Germany was 1/3 Catholic: that isn't trivial, and Hitler did wrk awfully hard to get the Pope on his side, even if he failed.  Moreover, Nazi Propaganda was more than happy to use quotes by a very important leader of the OTHER 2/3 of German Christians, Martin Luther, in their antisemitic propaganda, to whip up the "Christ killer" sentiment. Here's something for you: Luther's The Jews and Their Lies.

http://tinyurl.com/9ddrs

Hitler admired that work, and said  so, publicly. Streicher could cite it verbatim. If you think religious antisemitism wasn't used by Hitler for his own ends, you also have to explain things like this:

http://tinyurl.com/npua2y

You really should shut up here.

 

89 So flenser, you're arguing that Buchanan is not anti-Semitic?

90

Whiile your appeal to the wisdom of a man who thinks it would have been better if Germany won WWI is supposed to demonstrate your thoughtfulness and sagacity, I suppose. Or is it your knack for ad hominems?

 Seeing as how you haven't provided a single cite to demonstrate that all serious historians think that WWII was a continuation of WWI because Versaille was THE cause of  WWII, I'd say you are a bit worse off here. Seeing as how also you haven't even addressed why Ferguson might be wrong, I'd say you haven't a clue. Seeing as how you've presented a naive reductive argument as a fact, I'd say I don't need to demonstrate my sagacity: only your idiocy. I'd further suggest that you are doing a good job of that yourself, and I'm just giving you a hand.

'cmon, flenser, strut your stuff.

91 87 The German Luftwaffe was tactically opitimized.Wholely subordinated to supporting the forces on the battlefield.The one serious proponent of strategic bombardment in the Luftwaffe was killed in a plane crash and the subject dropped from consideration.The Germans had to make do since Hitler got them into a war,they had to fight with what they had.Their strategic bomber program never went anywhere.

92 A commenter above said if you far enough left or far enough right, you end up at the same spot. Not so. As Jonah Goldberg shows beyond doubt, that misconception arose because of word games on the part of the left to paint everything disagreeable as "right" and everything nice as "left." Fact is that the left favoers collectivist and authoritarian policies, the rright the opposite. Hitler was a socialist--if you don't believe me, read the Nazi party platform. So was Moussolini. Their acts and policies speak for themselves. The left would like to put Milton Friedman and Moussolini or Hitler all in the same box, when in fact Friedman had nothing in common with them philosophically.

93 87 If Hitler wanted the world, why did he not build strategic bombers, instead of two-engine Dorniers and Heinkels that could not even reach Britain from Germany?

I don't know, maybe because Hitler was bat-shit insane?

Posted by: joh at September 02, 2009 08:54 PM (jgwoG)

The value of strategic bombing didn't become apparent until well after WWII had started and by that time it was too late. The had to fight with what they had 'brought to the dance'. The US and England were the only countries in WWII that had a credible strategic bombing force.

Germany's view of air power was strictly geared to the tactical. It was a doctrinal thing.

94

Oh, I forgot, Flenser. You said: The quality of Fergusons arguments on history do not hinge on his being an anti-Semite or not.

Well, if you are going to look at German history in the first half of the century, yes they do. An antiSemite will bring to that period biases which will make rational and dispassionate examination of the facts difficult, and will influence the selection, weighting and interpretation of facts such  that a non-historian will find it difficult to assess where the antisemitic biases are affecting the author. You may as well be saying that anti-black racism won't affect the quality of an analysis of the social history of American Civil War. It will, and from everything I can see, you are not a profesional historian and would be ill suited to assess the quality of such an histotrians arguments.

Sorry, bucko: prejudics matter.  

 

95 #85  unknown jane   Agree with what you say.   One could also argue that Wilson was a strong Socialist, as was FDR. They most likely did not like Germany for that reason. It has been said by many historians that before WWI, Most Americans were on the side of Germany. Wilsons pet dream was for a strong League of Nations. That lead to the modern U.N. Wilsons fault?

96 The only reason Fatty-Patty Buchanan has any media access is so that the left can hold him up as an example of why the average American should hate Republicans.

97 And what steevy said too! I missed his reply.

98

Wilson's League of Nations may have worked IF it had not caved into the, by that time extremely outdated pipe dream, European powers desire to return to pre-1914 staus quo (aka. the age of European empire).  I believe the U.S. Congress at that time, quite wisely imho, opted out of the League due to some intrinsic knowledge that this was not going to be very effective as it was developing (and in which case they proved correct).  Where the U.N. fails is probably in the same area as the League did.

 

I'm the one, by the by, who made the comment that if you go too far in either direction you end up with the same thing.  Perhaps Mr. Goldberg and I are not addressing the same things, but I still believe that if you go too far right (as an example of this I exhibit Mr. Buchanan) or too far to the left (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, et al.) you tend to wind up with the same totalitarian/facist mindset.  This has nothing at all to do with the definition of conservative (or liberal) in the true meanings of those words (which have been butchered to be sure), nor the current political parties of the U.S.

And please, I am not so uneducated/ignorant as to believe that Hitler was not a socialist!  That was one of the reasons I believe he got such a pass at the beginning (especially from Stalin, who saw him as a fellow traveller).

99 I quite read Buchanan years ago when as he still does writes for WND.  He's really all over the spectrum but his support of highly questionable ideas and characters was too much for me.

100

Oh, I even missed this one:

Flenser : b)  the idiot in question did not call me a Jew hater, he called Catholics Jew haters and made the nutty assertion that Catholic influence was used by atheist Hitler in Protestant Germany to fan the flames of the Holocast.

1. He didn't say Catholics were Jew haters, he said that some were.  And that's a fact.

2. The assertion was not nutty: a. it was notconfined to Catholics. b. Catholics were politically more coherent in Germany than protestants and Hitler actively courted the Pope and c: Hitler definitely used Christ killer rhetoric,

3. You cannot say that Hitler was definitely an atheist: that's an absurdity. His innumerable references to Divine providence in what he wrote and said make that assertion tenuous and contentious at best. It is true that he doesn't seem to have been  any sort of normative Christian (judging by his discussions f St Paul) , but asserting baldly that he was an atheist is more than a bit too far. Read Mein Kampf, Hitler's Table Talk, any decent biography of the man.

You really should STFU.

101 The only reason Fatty-Patty Buchanan has any media access is so that the left can hold him up as an example of why the average American should hate Republicans.

Yeah, and the funny thing is, Buchanan hasn't been a Republican for years, but the left, who keep trotting him out, ignores this and hopes their audience will do the same.

102

I don't believe that Hitler was in any way favorable to Christianity, quite the opposite in fact.  He merely used any references to Christianity as a useful tool (much the same way he used the Treaty of Versailles as a useful excuse in his quest to achieve his objectives).

103 Go Pat Go!

104

"One thing I always wondered was why the Soviet Union essentially got a free pass for invading the other half of Poland and the spending the next two years selling Nazi Germany all the petrol they wanted."

They got a pass because the Churchill and Roosevelt wanted a second front to take some of the pressure off of Britain.  As they say the rest is history since apparently it work.

105 As a matter of fact, the only religion Hitler seemed to have any great affinity for was Islam (and perhaps some desire to go back to some fabled warrior ethos pagan past -- a hang up of his and many of his followers).

106 I've been done with Buchanan for a while due to his antisemitism. In fact, I stopped reading Townhall.com due to his presence as a columnist there. And why Fox News continues to have him as a guest just baffles me.

107 Eh, it's another wingnut Andy Rooney rant by ol' Uncle Pat again. Ol' Uncle Pat has been perpetually disappointed that Hitler's legions didn't dismantle the Red Army & kick Stalin out of Moscow & over the Urals before we bombed Berlin into the Stone Age. Just say "Yeah, whatever, Uncle Pat", and leave him to mutter in his easy chair while doing the things that really defeat fascist & socialist government. You know, like planning to vote Republican next year....
 

108 #100.  The idiot in question was very careful to say "not all" and did not use a broad brush, mostly because he's not an idiot and doesn't use broad brushes.  But flesner, let me be precise when I say that you are an idiot when you say Hitler was an "atheist". The Thousand Year Reich, the nighttime rallies with fire, pagan rituals and symbolism, Madame Blavatsky, theosophy........for crying out loud!....You don't know what you are talking about.  He was an occultist!    

Now, back to the subject of Buchanan is an idiot.  Dog bites man!

109 The extremes of left and right don't usually meet in the same places, but sometimes occasionally.  This, it seems to me, is because conservatism is more inherently specific to any particular locality.  Goldberg was at some point asked if fascists aren't extreme right-wingers, who are?  If I recall correctly, he said that the right splits into two very different extremes: one would be anarchists, the other extreme reactionary traditionalists, like monarchists.  And I believe he classified Franco as an example of the latter, though he mistakenly gets lumped in with the fascists.  Franco's nationalism was an aspiration for the prenational pre-modern world, to return Spain to an imagined golden age of purity before not just liberalism, but the Reformation.  This is a diametrically different from Mussolini, who rejected Marx essentially because Marx's version of socialism wasn't modernist ENOUGH.

110 On the points I find Buchanan's arguments compelling. I don't see any of the quotes you posted out of line or some sort of cryptic anti-jewish code-speak. We did trade Hitler for Stalin. Bolshevism was at its core an inherently internationalist movement, as we painfully experienced for five decades. As Churchill famously said following the end of WWII, "We stuck the wrong pig." You know, Churchill, the notorious anti-semite.

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112 Hitler had armed Germany to the teeth, re-militarized the Rhineland, annexed Austria, annexed the Sudetenland, and overrun what was left of Czechoslovakia. He had signed a secret military treaty with the USSR to split Poland in half. He had written openly about Germany needing to expand east and colonize the "inferior" Slavs.

But if we would have just let him have Danzig, he would have been happy, and no World War II. Riiight. This is the silliest thing since JFC Fuller blamed WWII on the "Jewish Money Power", and Buchanan doesn't have anything approaching Fuller's historical or strategic chops.

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115 But where is the evidence that Adolf Hitler, whose victims as of March 1939 were a fraction of Gen. Pinochet's, or Fidel Castro's, was out to conquer the world?

March 1939 was three years after the 1936 Nuremberg laws stripped German Jews of their German citizenship and civil rights. March 1939 was 5 months after Kristalnacht, when  Jews, Jewish institutions and Jewish owned businesses in Germany were systematically vandalized and looted by the Nazis. True, they weren't murdered yet, but most reasonable people who don't already have "that Jew thing" would consider them victims.

BTW, the Dachau concentration camp had been in operation since 1933.

116

The most infuriating part is his obique sliming of Cold War hero, Augusto Pinochet.

Another thing that I think everyone can agree on: the Nazis had such cool uniforms, gear, weapons, and machinery, that all of the evil and stuff is vastly outweighed.

And if you disagree, you're worse than Hitler.

117

Another thing that I think everyone can agree on: the Nazis had such cool uniforms, gear, weapons, and machinery, that all of the evil and stuff is vastly outweighed.

And if you disagree, you're worse than Hitler.

Posted by: DrZin at September 03, 2009 02:17 AM (CQuij)

You know why?

http://tiny.cc/lVT0c

 

118

c) as shocking as this may seem to some people, WWII had nothing to do with Jews. They were innocent bystanders who got caught up in it. If you want to talk WWII, talk WWII. 

Posted by: flenser at September 02, 2009 08:43 PM (rTG0F)

Innocent bystanders who got caught up, heh fensy flensy? So, they were, like, what? Collateral damage? So Hitler just wanted to fight teh fight, and accidently farted out death camps while constipated? And then you deny you're a crypto-Nazi. Fuck you.

119

"Like Woodstock in lederhosen."

 

That was a GREAT line!

120
Sorry to let the facts get in your way, but the Israeli courts acquitted Demjanjuk in the 80s. At the very least, on that point, you are wrong for attacking Buchanan. I would trust the Israelis on matters like this more than I would the federal governments of the US or Germany.

121

Here's a quote from his 1977 review of John Toland's biography of Hitler:

While I do not disagree with your point... I don't know why you use this example. I don't see what it is suppose to exemplify. It's largely correct.

One of the lessons of WWII was supposedly the 'banality of evil'. Demons are not very banal. Rather extraordinary. If you paint Hitler and the nazis as being nothing more then a whirlwind of genocidal madness and aggression incarnate, you lose that. It can't be banal at all. They're inhuman. And if they're not human, then the things they did are not neccessary something humans are capable of. So we would never do it. It couldn't happen to us.

Which is what everyone was saying before WWI. We were civilized now, you see, and all that barbaric stuff was past.

And quite a few Germans. Even at war's end, "Hitler did WHAT? Oh no, come on, that's BS that couldn't happen here."

It's like when they find the bodies in the crawl space and the neighbors go "Oh, but he seemed like such a nice guy!". Evil can be banal. But if we portray them as a caricature and a monster we lose the message of that banality and let our guard down.

122

The war guarantee was not about Danzig, or even about Poland. It was about the moral and strategic imperative "to stop Hitler" after he showed, by tearing up the Munich pact and Czechoslovakia with it, that he was out to conquer the world. And this Nazi beast could not be allowed to do that.

This is the most laughably absurd revision.

Sure, there were SOME figures (figures who in the end came out on top and were vindicated- Churchill, Roosevelt) who might be described as having had this attitude.

But they were only embraced after they were proven right. Roosevelt clearly wanted war, but before Pearl Harbor the US people and congress wouldn't have it.

Churchill was "in the wilderness" and considered an extremist kook.

Chamberlin wanted peace at all costs and thought Hitler a reasonable man who could be dealt with. All world leaders admired him. He had rebuilt Germany. He was on the cover of Time Magazine as Person of the Year. There was not many who thought of Hitler as a "nazi beast".

Hell, for one, almost everyone was socialist back then (as well as eugenicist). Roosevelt supported eugenics, and so did Churchill. God knows FDR was all for socialism. Germany was and had been a leading culture of the world, for years all the scientific advances came from Germany. Much of the artistic and cultural influences came from Germany. It was more admired then anything, especially among the elites and policymakers.

Hitler didn't invent the gas ovens. The guys at Cold Springs Lab envied the gas ovens, because they were so more advanced, progressive, cutting edge, and leading the movement.

123
Sorry to let the facts get in your way, but the Israeli courts acquitted Demjanjuk in the 80s. At the very least, on that point, you are wrong for attacking Buchanan. I would trust the Israelis on matters like this more than I would the federal governments of the US or Germany.

Posted by: Mike T at September 03, 2009 08:57 AM (nwEiU)

Suddenly you trust Israeli justice? Really? Anyway, the fact is they acquitted him of being Ivan the Terrible. Turned out he was another Nazi guard, and Israeli neglegence was that they requested deportation on the grounds of him being Ivan the Terrible, and couldn't prosecute him for being anybody else, even if he turned out to be Goebbels. So, he got off on a technicality. And now Germany is gonna set stuff straight, even if you and Uncle BuchFuhrer squirm like treeless hippies.

124 I was done with Buchanan decades ago.  What took you so long?

125

Oh puhleeze, Juicer, that was a cheap shot. Keep in mind that the Demjanjuk incident began at at time when the Soviet Union still existed, and it was pretty clear that the Soviets had a "show trial" in mind when they initially dug this case up. Did Demjanjuk collaborate with the Nazis? Yes. Millions of Ukranians did, because the Soviets were worse. The Soviets were worse for everyone trapped in Eastern Europe, unless of course you were Jewish, and even then not by much. (See "Doctors Plot" and Stalins's planned purges of "Rootless Cosmopolitans").

Pat Buchanan is a pigheaded isolationist fool, and sadly, yes, an anti-Semite. But he was right about Demjanjuk.

126 When Buckley called Buchanan an anti-Semite back in the 90's, I was initially skeptical,
How the hell could you be skeptical about Buchanan's Jew hatred? Were you blind??

127

Every swinging dick in Europe knew that Hitler was on a war footing; it wasn't exactly a secret that Germany was arming itself and that Hitler had expansionist ambitions. 

And yet, fools and traitors abounded in Britain and France who were more blind to this than Buchanan. (Lord Halifax, Pierre Laval, to name a couple off the top of my head).

128 The major mistake the allies made in 1918 was not forcing the German generals to sign the armistice at Compiegne.

129

Obviously, a big mistake on his part, since I think he would have been better served not declaring war, instead tolerating the tacit belligerance of the United States as he took care of his ill-considered invasion of Russia (if able), because I doubt FDR would have been able to get a revenge-focused USA to hold-up rolling over the Japanese for a few years in order to fight the bigger threat.

Frankly, I have wondered sometimes what if the USA had gone full-tilt "Asia First"? Watching the Nazis and the Soviets slug each other to death while still securing the Atlantic and salvaging the KMT in China and salvaging the British Empire might have saved us the horrors of Mao, Korea, and Vietnam.

130

And *that's* why he's MSNBC's favorite house conservative on those panel shows, so they can show the rest of the country just how nutty those Jew-hating knuckle-dragging conservatives really are...

Bingo. Three groups of "Conservatives" the MSM will tolerate and celebrate:

1. "Beautiful Losers" who get bullied on panels by the Left (Tucker Carlson)

2. "Sellouts" who might also arguably fit into category #1 (Peggy Noonan, Kathleen Parker, et. al.)

3. Obvious Ogres, meant to scare the children (Pat Buchanan)

131

"We did trade Hitler for Stalin."

Really? I guess all the history books are wrong when they say Germany broke thier non-aggression treaty and attacked the USSR. We sided with the Russians because they were enemies of Germany, plain and simple. It was a marraige of convenience and everyone--Churchill, FDR and Truman--knew it.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." - Sun Tsu (I believe)

132

re enemy of my enemy: I don't know who said that first, but I'm pretty certain it wasn't Sun Tzu.

http://tinyurl.com/oxxune

I'm willing to be corrected.

That aside, Curmudgeon, Stalin was an enemy of the Jewish people for sure (every time he said "cosmopolitan" read "Jew") , and you can make a fair argument that he was a worse despot than Hitler, but I really don't think there is much of an argument to be made that Stalin was somehow nearly as bad towards Jews as Hitler. In Stalin's Russia, you could get ahead if you were a Jew and renounced your people (ex: Lazar Kaganovich). You would still get crap for being a Jew, or marrying one (ex: Molotov) , and sometimes killed but they didn't automatically gas you . In Hitler's Germany...not so much.

133

No disagreement there, HiHo. Like I said, the Jews fared better under Stalin even if the rest of the Eastern Europeans didn't.

But like the Arthur Rudolph case (an ex-Nazi who, I think, was sentenced to and performed valuable national "community service" by working in the USA space program, only to be deported years later), I was rather annoyed by the travesty of the John Demjanjuk case, who frankly only did what millions of other Ukranians did to survive. A case that was begun by the propaganda mills of TASS.

I suppose one could make an academic argument that Danzig was not the place to draw the line on Hitler and somewhere else was, but an utter asshat like Pat Buchanan still very much sickens me. No quarrel there

 

134 Saw a book at B&N last night called "Churchill, Hitler and the Unecessary War by Pat Buchanan.  Nutso.

135 In the sense that had Britain and France heeded Churchill's warnings back in 1936 and taken action when the Rhineland was remilitarized, actually the title makes a lot of sense. What Buchanan does with it, however....

136

I haven't bothered reading the comments above or Pat's column to see if anyone's made this point, but just to add something quickly, for those that say WW2 was started because of the harsh treatment of Germany after losing WW1, the Allies used the harsh treaty the German Empire forced on France in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian War as their template.

137 Yeah, to the astute learned individual who contested my pont about trading Hitler for Stalin by suggesting that Hitler attacked first...wow...so the build-up of Soviet forces on the Eastern front doesn't dissuade you one bit? Perhaps the reports, now known to the public about the Soviet plans for the eventual attack on Germany might serve you well. Nonetheless, I think it is fair and arguable that Hitler could've been contained. Stalin, and more speicifically Bolshevism, was always meant to be international in scope. How could this be refuted? Sun Tzu? That's all you have to defend your argument? Nuts!

138 Pat Buchanan needs to die the most painful death imaginable

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